13001|12939|2007-04-05 17:57:04|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|My best organized life priorities can't fit a 40ft sailboat in a NYC apartment. Seriously , when the time comes to build, I'll be asking for space. Hopefully someone here can lend a hand. --- Carl Anderson wrote: > Yup. > Its a daunting process. > Not for everybody to build an oceangoing sailboat. > I guess that it is a matter of organizing your life > priorities if you > are going to make it happen. > That is what my wife & I have done. > > Carl > (Moonflower of Moab) > > > Cy Cy wrote: > > > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? > > I am an NYC apartment dweller. It would be cheaper > and > > easier for me to have the hull built for me, of > course > > it would be more fun and interesting to do it > myself. > > I've seen photos of people building boats on their > > driveways etc but I think the neighbors and local > > authorities would have issues. How on earth do you > > manage to the sandblasting, leading the keels, > etc? > > Not to mention transportation to the marina for > launch > > . . . > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the > forecast > > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL| 13002|12939|2007-04-05 18:03:34|Paul|Re: Construction site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > My best organized life priorities can't fit a 40ft > sailboat in a NYC apartment. Seriously , when the time > comes to build, I'll be asking for space. Hopefully > someone here can lend a hand. I think the point was that if you are living in a NYC apartment then building a 40' boat isn't a reasonable possibility. In order to do that, you would have to change your priorities, starting with moving somewhere that would allow for construction. In my case, I took a job running a mini storage with an agreement that I can build my boat on the property. Paul H.| 13003|12889|2007-04-05 19:45:23|Gordon Schnell|Re: steel plate question|Ralf Deutsch wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > > Ralf When I built my 40' hull, I ordered 40'X8' coil plate. It was delivered by "flatbed trailer" in 40' lengths. It worked fine. Gord| 13004|13004|2007-04-05 23:35:34|heretic_37ft|Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment!| 13005|13004|2007-04-06 00:11:27|Paul Wilson|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|My comments.... I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most challenging place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim tab....normally I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I ever get another boat it will have the same. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: heretic_37ft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13006|13004|2007-04-06 00:15:36|heretic_37ft|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Paul: Thank you. Your gracious comments are well taken! Mahalo! Respectfully, Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My comments.... > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most challenging place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim tab....normally I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I ever get another boat it will have the same. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: heretic_37ft > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13007|12939|2007-04-06 11:02:49|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|Yeah that was my point too. Will your mini-storage need a new manager anytime soon? --- Paul wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > My best organized life priorities can't fit a 40ft > > sailboat in a NYC apartment. Seriously , when the > time > > comes to build, I'll be asking for space. > Hopefully > > someone here can lend a hand. > > I think the point was that if you are living in a > NYC apartment then > building a 40' boat isn't a reasonable possibility. > In order to do > that, you would have to change your priorities, > starting with moving > somewhere that would allow for construction. > > In my case, I took a job running a mini storage with > an agreement that > I can build my boat on the property. > > Paul H. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html| 13008|12939|2007-04-06 11:10:14|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|Is coiled steel available wheelbraded and primed? Everything I have read has said that a proper finish using the modern coatings on steel require blasting the steel down to white and then priming as fast as possible. Even the oils from a handprint can cause issues with the coatings later. Not sure how practical it is to do this at home. For one thing, it will take at least a day or two to clean off the sand before you can prime . . . --- brentswain38 wrote: > Most people drive around and ask a farmer, or > connect by word of > mouth. Buying the plate wheelabraded and primed, > then keeping it up > with another coat of primer and touch up as you go > ,eliminates the > need for sandblasting. One owner did the steel work, > ballasting and > painting in a farmer's yard, then put it in his > driveway for the > quieter stuff, like interior, engine , etc. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? > > I am an NYC apartment dweller. It would be cheaper > and > > easier for me to have the hull built for me, of > course > > it would be more fun and interesting to do it > myself. > > I've seen photos of people building boats on their > > driveways etc but I think the neighbors and local > > authorities would have issues. How on earth do you > > manage to the sandblasting, leading the keels, > etc? > > Not to mention transportation to the marina for > launch > > . . . > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the > forecast > > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front| 13009|12939|2007-04-06 11:51:44|Paul|Re: Construction site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your mini-storage > need a new manager anytime soon? Probably in a couple of years. I am building a pair of boats now, cutting my teeth on building bigger and when they are done (hopefully one this summer, one by the end of the year) I will start on something larger that will be my "retirement home" and I will retire early and go sailing. Paul H| 13010|12939|2007-04-06 11:58:17|Paul|Re: Construction site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Is coiled steel available wheelbraded and primed? > Everything I have read has said that a proper finish > using the modern coatings on steel require blasting > the steel down to white and then priming as fast as > possible. Even the oils from a handprint can cause > issues with the coatings later. Not sure how practical > it is to do this at home. For one thing, it will take > at least a day or two to clean off the sand before you > can prime . . . The answer there is to blast and prime smaller areas at a time. I bought a trailer that a friend built years ago and it had been rusting in his back yard for quite a while. As I have time, I clean an area of rust, prime it and when I come back to work on it later I put a second coat of primer on and then blast another area. Take a big job and break it down into manageable task. Especially if boat building alone this is essential. Paul H| 13011|12939|2007-04-06 13:29:21|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|Well I would certainly think twice about building from scratch. Better have that done by a builder and finish it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can continue working and earning a paycheck but perhaps not as satisfying) Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling your boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it be hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems with overhead obstructions & permits etc? --- Paul wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your mini-storage > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a pair > of boats now, > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when they > are done (hopefully > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I will > start on something > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I will > retire early and go > sailing. > > Paul H > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/| 13012|13004|2007-04-06 15:00:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running off, as sea state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface moves back and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of the boat relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave passes. As waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes to zero, or even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which causes the rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst possible time. Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to weather, conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. Running off in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial wind vanes have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the trim tab cannot do, which limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize the slew rate of the boat. Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the slew rate of the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm conditions. As conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over slowly, which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and trim tab, helps a great deal in storm conditions. Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of pendulum to detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the pendulum to take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course if she gets caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the trim tab, because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing rapidly on a large wave crest. Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is stalled, the water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the direction of the slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even more, increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions worsen this will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but in concept it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, hinged to move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a point above the hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat slews, pulling on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as conditions worsen. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) My comments.... I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most challenging place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim tab....normally I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I ever get another boat it will have the same. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: heretic_37ft > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! __________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13013|12968|2007-04-06 15:01:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|Don't limit the wife to designing the interior. It is sexist. Lots of wives are better sailors than their husbands. Let them design the exterior and the interior. If you want a good interior design for offshore cruising, one that will suit your wife, look for a designer that has experience sailing offshore with his wife. Then ask his wife what makes a good interior. The problem for many people is that they have little if any cruising experience. Most of their experience is in houses, and houses for the most part are not designed to move. As a result people often take preconceived ideas with them, that either do not work, or are plain dangerous. They may look good at anchor, or at the dock, but in a seaway they can spell disaster. Why limit a customer to any one hull form or any one interior? We do custom designs. In this way the customer isn't limited to any one hull form, or any one interior. Design for intended use. What works best offshore is not best for coastal cruising. What works best for coastal is not best for offshore. This goes for hulls, rigs, and interiors. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:31 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks Simple solution, get the wife involved in the interior design, . Don't leave it to a stranger to impose on her. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Kevin Curry wrote: > > >...A great hull needs a great > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > >interior does not make a > >good cruising boat...... > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > >a lack of understanding of > >what really matters.... | 13014|12939|2007-04-06 16:04:06|Paul|Re: Construction site|The two I am building now are trailerable so they present no problems. The "retirement home will be larger and probably will require the services of a professional boat mover. I live a long way from the ocean and yes, the retirement home will almost certainly involve concerns with permits and overhead obstructions, hence the probability that I will leave its one trip to the ocean to a professional Still haven't decided what I am going to build for the retirement home. I have been looking at steel, wood and glass designs. I lean towards the steel and wood and am fascinated by the origami system, seeing the resemblance to the stitch n glue wood method that one of my current boats uses. I have had boats in the past in all 3 media and have been collecting plans and information while I finish these two up. As for building vs having someone else build I think a lot of it comes down to how much you enjoy the building process and what skills you have or are willing to acquire. I have worked a lot with both wood and steel and have learned a lot about fiberglass through making repairs to previous boats and in the process of building these two (most wood boats use some fiberglass as well as wood) Paul H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Well I would certainly think twice about building from > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and finish > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > continue working and earning a paycheck but perhaps > not as satisfying) > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling your > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it be > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems with > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > wrote: > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your mini-storage > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a pair > > of boats now, > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when they > > are done (hopefully > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I will > > start on something > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I will > > retire early and go > > sailing. > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > | 13015|13004|2007-04-06 16:13:50|heretic_37ft|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Greg: Appreciate the knowledge transfer. I have had great success running the engine to keep water moving over the rudder in heavy breaking seas (hand or autopilot steering the ship). During the "nice" days nothing is more satisfying than a wind vane with a servo (aka trim) tab! Swain 37 + 1' tracks great. She steers with minimal effort on all points of sail (wind vane, servo tab etc)! The local waters require special handling and techniques at times. High amplitude/short- wavelength seas for many miles can hurt. Furuno 520 would allow me to cover more miles when it is rough. Respectfully, Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running off, as sea > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface moves back > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of the boat > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave passes. As > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes to zero, or > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which causes the > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst possible > time. > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to weather, > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. Running off > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial wind vanes > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the trim tab cannot do, which > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize the slew > rate of the boat. > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the slew rate of > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm conditions. As > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over slowly, > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and trim tab, > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of pendulum to > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the pendulum to > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course if she gets > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the trim tab, > because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing rapidly on a > large wave crest. > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is stalled, the > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the direction of the > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even more, > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions worsen this > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but in concept > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, hinged to > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a point above the > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat slews, pulling > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as conditions > worsen. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > concept) > > > > My comments.... > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most challenging > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim tab....normally > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I ever get > another boat it will have the same. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: heretic_37ft > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > __________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13016|13016|2007-04-06 16:19:09|mickeyolaf|Seattle Swap Meet|For anyone interested the Seattle Marine Swap Meet is tomorrow, April 7 @0400am at Gas Works Park. U.S.$ was $1.16 CDN yesterday. This is a great place to pick up parts u can't make ie rope, chain, lights, winches,etc.| 13017|12939|2007-04-06 16:50:45|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|I've used boatmovers to haul smaller boats but I think if they're taller than 13 ft+trailer height (or is it 16ft?) then there are real headaches even with the professional builders. You have to pay for the removal of overhead wires, for example, and a crane to take the boat across overheads. etc etc. So I was curious what height a swain 36 would be. --- Paul wrote: > The two I am building now are trailerable so they > present no > problems. The "retirement home will be larger and > probably will > require the services of a professional boat mover. > I live a long > way from the ocean and yes, the retirement home will > almost > certainly involve concerns with permits and overhead > obstructions, > hence the probability that I will leave its one trip > to the ocean to > a professional > > Still haven't decided what I am going to build for > the retirement > home. I have been looking at steel, wood and glass > designs. I lean > towards the steel and wood and am fascinated by the > origami system, > seeing the resemblance to the stitch n glue wood > method that one of > my current boats uses. > > I have had boats in the past in all 3 media and have > been collecting > plans and information while I finish these two up. > > As for building vs having someone else build I think > a lot of it > comes down to how much you enjoy the building > process and what > skills you have or are willing to acquire. I have > worked a lot with > both wood and steel and have learned a lot about > fiberglass through > making repairs to previous boats and in the process > of building > these two (most wood boats use some fiberglass as > well as wood) > > Paul H > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > Well I would certainly think twice about building > from > > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and > finish > > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > > continue working and earning a paycheck but > perhaps > > not as satisfying) > > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling > your > > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it > be > > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems > with > > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your > mini-storage > > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a > pair > > > of boats now, > > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when > they > > > are done (hopefully > > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I > will > > > start on something > > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I > will > > > retire early and go > > > sailing. > > > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > It's here! Your new message! > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL| 13018|12939|2007-04-06 18:39:39|Paul|Re: Construction site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > I've used boatmovers to haul smaller boats but I think > if they're taller than 13 ft+trailer height (or is it > 16ft?) then there are real headaches even with the > professional builders. You have to pay for the removal > of overhead wires, for example, and a crane to take > the boat across overheads. etc etc. > So I was curious what height a swain 36 would be. > One of the good things with hiring a professional boat mover familiar with your area is they will also know the routes that minimize the number of wires and low bridges. Paul H| 13019|11463|2007-04-06 18:42:42|mickeyolaf|Sand Blasting|A friend of mine is a mechanic at a marina. He told me the other day that a boat in their yard was "soda blasted" with bicarbonate of soda. He said the boat was fiberglass and came up perfect for repaint. There is no environmental issues as the soda simply washes into the ground with the first rain. I've never heard of this process but would it work to prep steel and or aluminum for paint? Obviously there would be some residue to wipe off but u wouldn't have sand everywhere.| 13020|11463|2007-04-06 18:59:03|J Fisher|Re: Sand Blasting|Soda blasting is use where low impact is needed on the material being blasted. It will not create a good surface finish for the paint to bite into steel. In my last job we did a lot of Teflon coating. The trick for using a Teflon coating is to get the Teflon to stick to the surface being coated. On early coatings this was achieved by blasting to a Ra of 4 or 120uin with aluminum oxide. This resulted in a rough pointy surface that actually extended into the coating 8 to 15 um to provide mechanical adhesion as well as chemical adhesion with polyamide in the primer. We were only dealing with coatings that were 25 to 30um thick. We later had to switch one coating line to a glass bead blast due to the aluminum oxide destroying the blaster as it blasted. The glass beads left a surface that looked like rain drops splashing in a pool vs the jagged peaks from the aluminum oxide. The coatings did not bond as well to the bead blasted surface. While I have not looked at a soda blasted surface, I am sure that it will not have a rough texture for paint adhesion. John -------Original Message------- From: mickeyolaf Date: 4/6/2007 3:42:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Sand Blasting A friend of mine is a mechanic at a marina. He told me the other day that a boat in their yard was "soda blasted" with bicarbonate of soda. He said the boat was fiberglass and came up perfect for repaint. There is no environmental issues as the soda simply washes into the ground with the first rain. I've never heard of this process but would it work to prep steel and or aluminum for paint? Obviously there would be some residue to wipe off but u wouldn't have sand everywhere. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13021|11463|2007-04-07 04:08:34|sae140|Re: Sand Blasting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Soda blasting is use where low impact is needed on the material being > blasted. It will not create a good surface finish for the paint to bite > into steel. > > While I have not looked at a soda blasted surface, I am > sure that it will not have a rough texture for paint adhesion. > > John Hi John I agree with you: grit blasting to white is generally accepted as the 'de facto' standard for effective paint adhesion. Yet curiously, the use of wheel-abraded and pre-primed steel is often quoted here as providing an acceptable surface upon which to apply marine coatings - yet wheel-abrasion is a process that produces a very smooth surface. Colin| 13022|12939|2007-04-07 17:52:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Tank tested?|I usually only find racers want an open cockpit, to minimize windage while maximizing visibility and sail handling ability. A closed wheelhouse is great in this climate. In the tropics it can be hard to ventilate adequately. Hard dodgers are more typical in the tropics where head and sunlight are a constant problem. In either case, you need to be able to lead the sheets to a heavy weather steering station without compromising the water-tight integrity of the boat. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tank tested? Like the guy sitting in an open cockpit, or under a dodger, freezing his ass off while criticising wheelhouses and inside steering arrangements. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > Like the young guy that builds a hot-rod. To him it is the best car in the > world. Uncomfortable ride, terrible mileage, can't corner worth a damn, > breaks down all the time, but still the best car in the world. > > You can talk until you are blue in the face, pointing out the problems, how > things can be improved. He will argue and argue that none of the problems > you point out are problems. You are mistaken. It is a terrific ride. He > gets great mileage downhill. He passes Porsche's and BMS's all the time. > They are so slow they can barely exceed the speed limit. He hasn't broken > down all week and if he does, this will make the car even more reliable in > future. It is the best car in the world. > > It is a sub-conscious effect. People honestly think they are giving a > balanced evaluation and are not aware of the bias. It is below the level of > consciousness. The more you have invested in anything, the stronger the > effect. > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > , Cy Cy wrote: > > > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13023|12939|2007-04-07 18:01:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Alex has a tough enough job moderating this group. Using personal insults and/or innuendo to try and further an argument is an insult to his position and responsibility as moderator. I do not advocate any form of scam. Everyone doing an "honest day's work" is obliged to pay taxes. If you want to see who is doing an honest day's work, look to see how much tax they paid. If they aren't paying tax either they aren't working, or it isn't honest. I've certainly paid my share of taxes over the years and continue to do so. Even when I was cruising I paid substantial taxes. Someone has to pay for the harbors, weather forecasting, navigation aids, marine police, coast guard, navy, all the facilities we use that help keep us safe. These facilities were built by the "honest day's work" of taxpayers. Using these facilities without paying taxes, that would be a scam. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? $6,000 dollars is a horrendous amount of money to pay for a custom design for a basic hull , decks ,sailplan, keels,skeg and rudder, if it is a fairly conventional design which the designer can sell over and over again for years to come , especially if it designed with the time saving avantages of a computer . If it is a radical design which no one but you will be willing to pay for , then expect to pay the one of price.For a radical one off, the price is high.It takes a lot of work. If in a custom design, for which you already have made your decisions for interior and other drawings which you don't need, then it's up to you to make that clear to the designer. Didn't one designer elsewhere on this site , when we were discussing ways to pay for your cruising dreams, advocate a form of scamming, to avoid the need to get ones hands dirty doing an honest days work? Every one has a track record . Pay close attention to it. Don't buy the used car salesman's line "You always get what you pay for ." If that were true, there would be no such thing as a ripoff. Ralph Nader and consumer product testing labs wouldn't have to do all that testing. They would only have to read the price tag to determine the quality of anything. Boy ,would it be naive to believe that! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > Creating the patterns to fold a boat is relatively simple. Making this fair > is more complicated. Making sure that all the numbers are right, so that > the boat sails well, this is more complicated again. Laying out the decks > and interiors, so that everything runs true, clearances are correct, takes > more time again. Checking the scantlings, so that the strengths match the > weights and the loads, this takes more time again. All this adds up to a > large amount of trial and error, which is reflected in the cost of building. > Either the designer does this which saves time and materials while building, > or the builder does it, which typically is reflected in the time and martial > required to finish the boat once the hulls is completed. > > > > For example. You have a hull designed, interior design mostly complete. > You decide to shift the engine to make room for a feature in the interior. > This changes the center of gravity of the boat. Either you must shift some > ballast, or change the hull lines, to move the center of buoyancy to match > the new weight distribution, or the boat will trim down at one end. > However, if you move the center of buoyancy you must move the center of > floatation to match, or the boat may hobby horse. All of this changes the > interior of the boat, which means you may need to move other parts of the > interior. This further shifts the weights, and changes all the clearances, > which must all be checked and adjusted, which may well require further > changes to the hull form. Once this is done, you check all the scantling, > increasing and decreasing materials as required, which again changes the > weights, which may again change the hull shape. You repeat this process > over and over, reducing the errors each time, until you arrive at an optimum > hull for a given interior layout. > > > > You can skip these steps to save cost, but the end result can be a boat with > a less than optimum interior layout, that does not make the best use of the > interior space, or a boat where the weight distribution does not match the > hull form, too light in some areas, too heavy in others, which may result in > less than optimum performance under sail/power. > > > > It is not unusual to see a well laid out 26 foot boat with more room than a > poorly laid out 36 foot boat. It is not unusual to see the same 26 foot > boat out-sail the 36 foot boat, over a wide range of conditions. As the 26 > footer typically costs less to build than the 36 footer, some of this saving > can be used to pay for the cost of a more complete design. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13024|11463|2007-04-07 18:22:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sand Blasting|Colin, Wheel Abraded steel does not mean that a wire wheel was used. It means that a centrifugal wheel threw the steel shot at the surface, rather than using air. So the results are same as sand blasting. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 4:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sand Blasting --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Soda blasting is use where low impact is needed on the material being > blasted. It will not create a good surface finish for the paint to bite > into steel. > > While I have not looked at a soda blasted surface, I am > sure that it will not have a rough texture for paint adhesion. > > John Hi John I agree with you: grit blasting to white is generally accepted as the 'de facto' standard for effective paint adhesion. Yet curiously, the use of wheel-abraded and pre-primed steel is often quoted here as providing an acceptable surface upon which to apply marine coatings - yet wheel-abrasion is a process that produces a very smooth surface. Colin | 13025|12968|2007-04-08 01:07:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|Greg, I agree with you in that if you are sailing with someone for extended periods then you both need to be happy with the both the accomodation and the sail and boat handling ergonomics. Also the best environment for when the boat is not underway is at odds for when it is especially when things kick up rough. I am not so sure though that a computer generated design, for a one off personal build is an improvement on mocking things up in pallet wood, etc, and sitting and moving about in and on it with ones sea mate (in my case wife)and imagining what it will be like at when the boat rocks, rolls and dives. Although we have not been sailing that long we have done a load of theoretical and practical Royal Yacht Association courses and sailed and crewed on a wide variety of boats including dinghies, a catamaran and an old sailing trawler. All of these boats were professionally designed and there are always things that one thinks could be improved on, in some cases somethings that were dangerous and always things that one thinks are a good idea. Working together on the boat gives us, I think, both a sense of ownership of the project. There is of course the compromise due to limitations of space time and money, but the best is the enemy of the good as they say. Most of our time, as it is probably with most boaters will be spent not underway and so the design will reflect that, but I will be putting lugs in the appropriate places to rig lee cloths and other foul weather body and bits retention devices. I think aboat where ones body will hit and round off or pad sharp bits. The heads are arranged so that one can sit on the toilet and vomit in the hand basin at the same time and so on. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Don't limit the wife to designing the interior. It is sexist. Lots of > wives are better sailors than their husbands. Let them design the exterior > and the interior. If you want a good interior design for offshore cruising, > one that will suit your wife, look for a designer that has experience > sailing offshore with his wife. Then ask his wife what makes a good > interior. > > > > The problem for many people is that they have little if any cruising > experience. Most of their experience is in houses, and houses for the most > part are not designed to move. As a result people often take preconceived > ideas with them, that either do not work, or are plain dangerous. They may > look good at anchor, or at the dock, but in a seaway they can spell > disaster. > | 13026|11463|2007-04-08 04:39:20|sae140|Re: Sand Blasting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Colin, > Wheel Abraded steel does not mean that a wire wheel was used. It means that > a centrifugal wheel threw the steel shot at the surface, rather than using > air. So the results are same as sand blasting. > > Gary H. Lucas > Hi Gary - yes, I know about the principles of wheel abraders. You may remember I posted a number of patent numbers of these here a while back together with other abrading methods for folks to do their research with. Recycled round steel shot produces a smooth surface, from which it is relatively easy to scratch the primer off. Moving the plates against each other during delivery often does this. Grit-blasting with a hard sharp media produces a surface more akin to that of fine carborundum paper. Totally different. Colin| 13027|12939|2007-04-08 05:51:03|Alex Christie|Re: Construction site|I know that the mover of quite a few 36 footers has never had to move wires because his trailer is low enough (I think top of boat cannot be higher than 13.5 feet). Plus I've found myself on the highway following right behind a Swain 36 twin keeler by chance and watched it pass under an overpass with no problems :) Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Cy Cy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Construction site I've used boatmovers to haul smaller boats but I think if they're taller than 13 ft+trailer height (or is it 16ft?) then there are real headaches even with the professional builders. You have to pay for the removal of overhead wires, for example, and a crane to take the boat across overheads. etc etc. So I was curious what height a swain 36 would be. --- Paul wrote: > The two I am building now are trailerable so they > present no > problems. The "retirement home will be larger and > probably will > require the services of a professional boat mover. > I live a long > way from the ocean and yes, the retirement home will > almost > certainly involve concerns with permits and overhead > obstructions, > hence the probability that I will leave its one trip > to the ocean to > a professional > > Still haven't decided what I am going to build for > the retirement > home. I have been looking at steel, wood and glass > designs. I lean > towards the steel and wood and am fascinated by the > origami system, > seeing the resemblance to the stitch n glue wood > method that one of > my current boats uses. > > I have had boats in the past in all 3 media and have > been collecting > plans and information while I finish these two up. > > As for building vs having someone else build I think > a lot of it > comes down to how much you enjoy the building > process and what > skills you have or are willing to acquire. I have > worked a lot with > both wood and steel and have learned a lot about > fiberglass through > making repairs to previous boats and in the process > of building > these two (most wood boats use some fiberglass as > well as wood) > > Paul H > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > Well I would certainly think twice about building > from > > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and > finish > > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > > continue working and earning a paycheck but > perhaps > > not as satisfying) > > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling > your > > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it > be > > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems > with > > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your > mini-storage > > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a > pair > > > of boats now, > > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when > they > > > are done (hopefully > > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I > will > > > start on something > > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I > will > > > retire early and go > > > sailing. > > > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > It's here! Your new message! > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/748 - Release Date: 05/04/2007 3:33 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13028|12939|2007-04-08 13:40:45|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|Both in the tropics and in BC in the summer I used to fry in the cockpit, before I had a wheelhouse. In hot weather I used to wait for sundown before going anywhere. Sailing from Tahiti to Moorea I felt like an eggg in the frypan, sitting in an open cockpit. Now when it's hot I stay in the wheelhouse. I remember sailing up the Lagoon to Noumea in New Caledonia , on a rainy night, jumping in and out everytime I wanted to take another look at the chart, . I couldn't keep it on deck without getting it soaked. I often think of how much easier those trips would have been with a wheelhouse. It only takes a minute for me to jump out and tie a reef in the main or furl the jib, not long enough to get wet enough to matter. Having a wheelhouse minimises your time on deck, a major safety factor in rough weather , in the tropics or elsewhere. People who worry about windage of a wheelhouse naively fail to consider the considerable, unstreamlined weight and windage of a soggy crew on deck. To be usefull in hot weather you have to have an effective exhuast fan on your engine compartment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I usually only find racers want an open cockpit, to minimize windage while > maximizing visibility and sail handling ability. A closed wheelhouse is > great in this climate. In the tropics it can be hard to ventilate > adequately. Hard dodgers are more typical in the tropics where head and > sunlight are a constant problem. In either case, you need to be able to > lead the sheets to a heavy weather steering station without compromising the > water-tight integrity of the boat. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:27 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tank tested? > > > > Like the guy sitting in an open cockpit, or under a dodger, freezing > his ass off while criticising wheelhouses and inside steering > arrangements. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > Like the young guy that builds a hot-rod. To him it is the best > car in the > > world. Uncomfortable ride, terrible mileage, can't corner worth a > damn, > > breaks down all the time, but still the best car in the world. > > > > You can talk until you are blue in the face, pointing out the > problems, how > > things can be improved. He will argue and argue that none of the > problems > > you point out are problems. You are mistaken. It is a terrific > ride. He > > gets great mileage downhill. He passes Porsche's and BMS's all > the time. > > They are so slow they can barely exceed the speed limit. He > hasn't broken > > down all week and if he does, this will make the car even more > reliable in > > future. It is the best car in the world. > > > > It is a sub-conscious effect. People honestly think they are > giving a > > balanced evaluation and are not aware of the bias. It is below > the level of > > consciousness. The more you have invested in anything, the > stronger the > > effect. > > > > Greg > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > , Cy Cy wrote: > > > > > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > > > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > > > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > > > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > > > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13029|12939|2007-04-08 13:41:26|brentswain38|Re: Construction site|A guy once asked me where he could find a hull and deck for sale . I told him to buy a load of steel and in 2 or 3 weeks we'd make it into ahull and deck in far less time and for far less hassle than it takes to negotiate, buy and move an existing hull. He did that and three wekds later he had his hull and decks. Origami building techniques make the hull the simplest part. The last one I did took les than two weeks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Well I would certainly think twice about building from > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and finish > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > continue working and earning a paycheck but perhaps > not as satisfying) > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling your > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it be > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems with > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > wrote: > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your mini-storage > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a pair > > of boats now, > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when they > > are done (hopefully > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I will > > start on something > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I will > > retire early and go > > sailing. > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > | 13030|13030|2007-04-08 17:00:38|kingsknight4life|height of a swain 36|hi. someone asked the height of a Swain 36'. If I rememeber correctly from ground to the top of my pilothouse, door rail is under 12 feet. It's been awhile since I measured it and I am away from my boat at present but I'm prety sure 12 ft. would be the max for a twin keeler. Rowland| 13031|12968|2007-04-08 18:08:13|brentswain38|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|I know a lot of ladies who live aboard fulltime and are very experienced cruisers. When they take a guy sailing the guys always try to be captain ,even though their knowledge is a tiny fraction that of the ladies. Gynophobic programming defies logic. Ladies , if a guy tries to intimidate you, and put himself on a pedestal, by making sailing seem far more complex than it is,(it's actually extremely simple) look him in the eye and ask "If sailing requires that level of intelligence, then how are you able to figure it out?" There are a lot of gynophobic skippers out there . I even heard of one such gynophobic ass in Fiji , who had his young wife doing galley slave duties , mere hours after having given birth to her first child. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Don't limit the wife to designing the interior. It is sexist. Lots of > wives are better sailors than their husbands. Let them design the exterior > and the interior. If you want a good interior design for offshore cruising, > one that will suit your wife, look for a designer that has experience > sailing offshore with his wife. Then ask his wife what makes a good > interior. > > > > The problem for many people is that they have little if any cruising > experience. Most of their experience is in houses, and houses for the most > part are not designed to move. As a result people often take preconceived > ideas with them, that either do not work, or are plain dangerous. They may > look good at anchor, or at the dock, but in a seaway they can spell > disaster. > > > > Why limit a customer to any one hull form or any one interior? We do custom > designs. In this way the customer isn't limited to any one hull form, or > any one interior. Design for intended use. What works best offshore is not > best for coastal cruising. What works best for coastal is not best for > offshore. This goes for hulls, rigs, and interiors. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks > > > > Simple solution, get the wife involved in the interior design, . > Don't leave it to a stranger to impose on her. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Kevin Curry > wrote: > > > > >...A great hull needs a great > > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > > >interior does not make a > > >good cruising boat...... > > > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > > >a lack of understanding of > > >what really matters.... > | 13032|13004|2007-04-08 18:28:47|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never had a problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my clients in any of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the problem with lack of control is the popularity of very hard to control asymetrical hull shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced hull shape which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , makes any self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to unbalanced hull shapes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running off, as sea > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface moves back > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of the boat > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave passes. As > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes to zero, or > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which causes the > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst possible > time. > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to weather, > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. Running off > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the trim tab cannot do, which > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize the slew > rate of the boat. > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the slew rate of > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm conditions. As > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over slowly, > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and trim tab, > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of pendulum to > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the pendulum to > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course if she gets > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the trim tab, > because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing rapidly on a > large wave crest. > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is stalled, the > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the direction of the > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even more, > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions worsen this > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but in concept > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, hinged to > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a point above the > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat slews, pulling > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as conditions > worsen. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > concept) > > > > My comments.... > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most challenging > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim tab....normally > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I ever get > another boat it will have the same. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: heretic_37ft > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept) > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > __________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13033|12939|2007-04-08 18:33:25|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|You remind me of the time a couple of years ago when I was sitting in the Quadra Islannd library next to "Environmentalist" David Suzuki. I said "Hey Dave, I found a good way to measure ones personal environmental footprint." He said "What's that?" I said "Your environmental footprint is directly porportionate to how much money you spend , period. There is very little vartiation on that." He didn't reply , his ears went bright red , his typing slowed down, then he got up and slinked out.I thought "Gee I guess he doesn't live all that cheaply".I didn't even get to ask him how he justified his deliberate decision to have 5 kids , when we were being warned of the environmental consequences of overpopulation. Thus your proposal that paying lots of taxes which in our progressive taxation system , means making and spending lots of money, which means increaseing our environmental impact, is the morally proper thing to do, is absolute bs. I Canada we have a basic personal exemption which means that if you make less than $8,000 dollars a year, your income tax rate is zero, $10,000 for BC income tax. It's hard to imagine greater hippocracy that to suggest that someone wiith a far greater environmental impact than spending less than $8,000 a year has the right to preach morality to someone who has less than an $8,000 dollar environmental impact. If you build someone a boat and they live aboard , you have reduced their environmental impacy exponentially for as long as they live aboard. If I won the lottery I'd buy another solar panel. I can't think of anything else I need. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Alex has a tough enough job moderating this group. Using personal insults > and/or innuendo to try and further an argument is an insult to his position > and responsibility as moderator. > > > > I do not advocate any form of scam. Everyone doing an "honest day's work" > is obliged to pay taxes. If you want to see who is doing an honest day's > work, look to see how much tax they paid. If they aren't paying tax either > they aren't working, or it isn't honest. > > > > I've certainly paid my share of taxes over the years and continue to do so. > Even when I was cruising I paid substantial taxes. Someone has to pay for > the harbors, weather forecasting, navigation aids, marine police, coast > guard, navy, all the facilities we use that help keep us safe. These > facilities were built by the "honest day's work" of taxpayers. Using these > facilities without paying taxes, that would be a scam. > > > > Greg > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > $6,000 dollars is a horrendous amount of money to pay for a custom > design for a basic hull , decks ,sailplan, keels,skeg and rudder, if > it is a fairly conventional design which the designer can sell over > and over again for years to come , especially if it designed with > the time saving avantages of a computer . If it is a radical design > which no one but you will be willing to pay for , then expect to pay > the one of price.For a radical one off, the price is high.It takes a > lot of work. > If in a custom design, for which you already have made your > decisions for interior and other drawings which you don't need, then > it's up to you to make that clear to the designer. > Didn't one designer elsewhere on this site , when we were > discussing ways to pay for your cruising dreams, advocate a form of > scamming, to avoid the need to get ones hands dirty doing an honest > days work? > Every one has a track record . Pay close attention to it. > Don't buy the used car salesman's line "You always get what you pay > for ." If that were true, there would be no such thing as a ripoff. > Ralph Nader and consumer product testing labs wouldn't have to do > all that testing. They would only have to read the price tag to > determine the quality of anything. > Boy ,would it be naive to believe that! > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > Creating the patterns to fold a boat is relatively simple. Making > this fair > > is more complicated. Making sure that all the numbers are right, > so that > > the boat sails well, this is more complicated again. Laying out > the decks > > and interiors, so that everything runs true, clearances are > correct, takes > > more time again. Checking the scantlings, so that the strengths > match the > > weights and the loads, this takes more time again. All this adds > up to a > > large amount of trial and error, which is reflected in the cost of > building. > > Either the designer does this which saves time and materials while > building, > > or the builder does it, which typically is reflected in the time > and martial > > required to finish the boat once the hulls is completed. > > > > > > > > For example. You have a hull designed, interior design mostly > complete. > > You decide to shift the engine to make room for a feature in the > interior. > > This changes the center of gravity of the boat. Either you must > shift some > > ballast, or change the hull lines, to move the center of buoyancy > to match > > the new weight distribution, or the boat will trim down at one end. > > However, if you move the center of buoyancy you must move the > center of > > floatation to match, or the boat may hobby horse. All of this > changes the > > interior of the boat, which means you may need to move other parts > of the > > interior. This further shifts the weights, and changes all the > clearances, > > which must all be checked and adjusted, which may well require > further > > changes to the hull form. Once this is done, you check all the > scantling, > > increasing and decreasing materials as required, which again > changes the > > weights, which may again change the hull shape. You repeat this > process > > over and over, reducing the errors each time, until you arrive at > an optimum > > hull for a given interior layout. > > > > > > > > You can skip these steps to save cost, but the end result can be a > boat with > > a less than optimum interior layout, that does not make the best > use of the > > interior space, or a boat where the weight distribution does not > match the > > hull form, too light in some areas, too heavy in others, which may > result in > > less than optimum performance under sail/power. > > > > > > > > It is not unusual to see a well laid out 26 foot boat with more > room than a > > poorly laid out 36 foot boat. It is not unusual to see the same > 26 foot > > boat out-sail the 36 foot boat, over a wide range of conditions. > As the 26 > > footer typically costs less to build than the 36 footer, some of > this saving > > can be used to pay for the cost of a more complete design. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. > One thing > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor > when it > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > comlicated > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at > all it is > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Doug > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife > and > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > > than we first imagined. > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > 3/8 > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > > the grid right now). > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13034|12968|2007-04-08 18:54:55|Alex Christie|origami DVD promotion|Time for a little shameless self-promotion: I'd like to mention to new group members that there is still available the 3 hour DVD set detailing the construction of an origami boat from flat sheet to bare hull, cabin and decks. $54 USD, shipped worldwide. Contact me at achristie@... for further details if interested! Alex Christie| 13035|13030|2007-04-08 21:19:56|Paul Wilson|Re: height of a swain 36|My fin keel 36 is about 12 feet from the bottom of the keel to the highest point which is the bow pulpit. I don't have the pilothouse on mine but I don't think it would be any higher than that. Twin keels, of course would be shorter. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 9, 2007 4:59:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] height of a swain 36 hi. someone asked the height of a Swain 36'. If I rememeber correctly from ground to the top of my pilothouse, door rail is under 12 feet. It's been awhile since I measured it and I am away from my boat at present but I'm prety sure 12 ft. would be the max for a twin keeler. Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13036|12939|2007-04-08 21:44:28|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|That has to be one of the truely ellagent statements of reality I have heard in a long time. Some one should aske Alvin Gore how he justifies it jetting around to his parties. Jon Doing my part to bring palm trees back to Canada --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You remind me of the time a couple of years ago when I was sitting in > the Quadra Islannd library next to "Environmentalist" David Suzuki. I > said "Hey Dave, I found a good way to measure ones personal > environmental footprint." He said "What's that?" I said "Your > environmental footprint is directly porportionate to how much money > you spend , period. There is very little vartiation on that." > He didn't reply , his ears went bright red , his typing slowed down, > then he got up and slinked out.I thought "Gee I guess he doesn't live > all that cheaply".I didn't even get to ask him how he justified his > deliberate decision to have 5 kids , when we were being warned of the > environmental consequences of overpopulation. > Thus your proposal that paying lots of taxes which in our progressive > taxation system , means making and spending lots of money, which > means increaseing our environmental impact, is the morally proper > thing to do, is absolute bs. > | 13037|13037|2007-04-08 21:48:39|kevincurry10|folded aluminum multihulls?|Much in the way of plans or examples here?| 13038|12939|2007-04-08 22:43:43|Cy Cy|Re: Construction site|Yeah but you're always off galavanting in the Pacific! --- brentswain38 wrote: > A guy once asked me where he could find a hull and > deck for sale . I > told him to buy a load of steel and in 2 or 3 weeks > we'd make it into > ahull and deck in far less time and for far less > hassle than it takes > to negotiate, buy and move an existing hull. He did > that and three > wekds later he had his hull and decks. Origami > building techniques > make the hull the simplest part. The last one I did > took les than two > weeks. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > wrote: > > > > Well I would certainly think twice about building > from > > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and > finish > > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > > continue working and earning a paycheck but > perhaps > > not as satisfying) > > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling > your > > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it > be > > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems > with > > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your > mini-storage > > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a > pair > > > of boats now, > > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when > they > > > are done (hopefully > > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I > will > > > start on something > > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I > will > > > retire early and go > > > sailing. > > > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > It's here! Your new message! > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html| 13039|13030|2007-04-09 00:36:20|mickeyolaf|Re: height of a swain 36|My 36 is 13'. It was moved 300k in BC with no issues. Rowland, there is a Marine Swap meet in Victoria on April 21 if u are interested. I took in the Seattle one this week. New 3&3/4" Richie compass $50. New manual 25 gallon/minute Jabsco bilge pump $25. Two new big (14mm sheets) Harken ball bearing blocks for $50. Five new Davis turnbuckle covers $10. There were tons of winches and props for sale this time. Lots of people giving away free stuff. I was talking to a woman there who was around 70. She has a 94' steel hull boat. Good on her. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > hi. someone asked the height of a Swain 36'. If I rememeber correctly > from ground to the top of my pilothouse, door rail is under 12 feet. > It's been awhile since I measured it and I am away from my boat at > present but I'm prety sure 12 ft. would be the max for a twin keeler. > > Rowland > | 13040|11463|2007-04-09 00:37:35|mickeyolaf|Re: Sand Blasting|I just received a price from a Vancouver Island soda blaster. He wants $800 CDN to soda blast a 36 hull, deck and house. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Colin, > > Wheel Abraded steel does not mean that a wire wheel was used. It > means that > > a centrifugal wheel threw the steel shot at the surface, rather than > using > > air. So the results are same as sand blasting. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > Hi Gary - yes, I know about the principles of wheel abraders. You may > remember I posted a number of patent numbers of these here a while > back together with other abrading methods for folks to do their > research with. > > Recycled round steel shot produces a smooth surface, from which it is > relatively easy to scratch the primer off. Moving the plates against > each other during delivery often does this. > > Grit-blasting with a hard sharp media produces a surface more akin to > that of fine carborundum paper. Totally different. > > Colin > | 13041|11463|2007-04-09 04:39:34|sae140|Re: Sand Blasting .. wheel-abrading riddle solved ?|It may be that I've discovered an explanation for the apparent inconsistencies of the wheel-abrading process. In Britain it's very difficult to purchase WAPP (Wheel-Abraded and Pre-Primed) steel off the roll, which has to be specially ordered. The reason given by suppliers is that "there's no call for it". This is undoubtedly true - indeed, I don't know of any boat-builders who regularly use it. They all prefer to weather the steel and blast after fabrication. The reasons given for this is that WAPP steel can't easily be sourced, it's significantly more expensive, and the primer comes away during fabrication, so the steel rusts and then has to be blasted anyway. I do know of a one-off builder who went to the trouble of ordering and using WAPP steel - he had no end of trouble with the primer lifting-off with the slightest scratch, and in a phone call last night he confirmed to me that the steel underneath the primer was "as smooth as a baby's bum" (his words). He subsequently blasted. In http://www.kastenmarine.com/corrosion.htm this smoothness is also commented on: "The shot used for wheel abrading creates a surface that is essentially a bunch of tiny smooth dents on the surface, whereas grit blasting creates a sharp contour that provides the paint system with a much better mechanical "bond" to the metal surface." Yet curiously - the specification I have at hand for an Alaskan Research Vessel reads: "All new and disturbed areas (...) shall be wheelabrated or gritblasted to near white metal (SSPC-SP10-63T) and coated (....). The use of wheelabrated preprimed steel plates in the erection of structure is encouraged." There is then further comment about the need for certification of the systems used and approval of same. So how are these two apparently contradictory scenarios reconciled ? I discovered one possible answer in an ICI Devoe Coatings research paper concerned with fabricating offshore wind turbines in North America, entitled "Windmills - Fast Production Schedules with Novel Zinc Primers and Polyaspartic Ester Topcoats", in which it states: "Carbon steel plate was first wheelabraded to SSPC-SP10 Near White Metal standard. A jagged profile of 2.5 - 3 mils was obtained using an abrasive media consisting of 30% steel grit and 70% steel shot." So that seems to be the secret - using a steel grit mix to roughen the surface, and of course the grit component will have to be renewed at intervals - hence the need for certification on Government contracts. But - British steel producers only use shot, hence their surfaces are too smooth - so no-one wants that kind of plate steel - and therefore it ain't produced for stock ... Presumably North American steel companies are more enlightened, but I guess it's still always worth checking what's under the primer. Hope this helps solve the riddle. Colin| 13042|13042|2007-04-09 05:13:37|Alex Christie|Switchable magnetic Ground Clamp|John Fisher gave me a sample ground clamp which has a switchable magnet (uses rare earth magnets which move inside a short barrel and can therefor cancel each other at the twist of a knob). I gave it a try today working on the Colvin ketch conversion to twin keel pilot house project I've got going, and I'm pleased with the results. Watch the video (very informal, please excuse the over-use of "basically" -- I'm rusty :p) here for your entertainment. You might also find entertainment in how long it took me to strike an arc with a 7024 rod (old)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpa821yiE0 Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13043|11463|2007-04-09 12:07:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sand Blasting|On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 04:32:54AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I just received a price from a Vancouver Island soda blaster. He > wants $800 CDN to soda blast a 36 hull, deck and house. I wish I'd been there instead of here (Florida) when I hired my last sandblasting contractor. Almost $7000 US by the time it was all done for 34' LOA - and that's just the hull! To be fair, that was actually two passes (blast before welding, then reblast and prime after), but *damn* that was high. And yes, I did shop around; that was the going price in this part of the world. $800 CDN sounds like an amazing deal from where I'm sitting. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13044|11463|2007-04-09 12:08:37|Mike|Re: Sand Blasting .. wheel-abrading riddle solved ?|Colin, Thanks for the info.. I was planning to go the "lazier" route of WAPP steel. Now, I have a better idea of how it should be ordered. Cheers, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > It may be that I've discovered an explanation for the apparent > inconsistencies of the wheel-abrading process. > > In Britain it's very difficult to purchase WAPP (Wheel-Abraded and > Pre-Primed) steel off the roll, which has to be specially ordered. > The reason given by suppliers is that "there's no call for it". This > is undoubtedly true - indeed, I don't know of any boat-builders who > regularly use it. They all prefer to weather the steel and blast > after fabrication. The reasons given for this is that WAPP steel can't > easily be sourced, it's significantly more expensive, and the primer > comes away during fabrication, so the steel rusts and then has to be > blasted anyway. > > I do know of a one-off builder who went to the trouble of ordering and > using WAPP steel - he had no end of trouble with the primer > lifting-off with the slightest scratch, and in a phone call last night > he confirmed to me that the steel underneath the primer was "as smooth > as a baby's bum" (his words). He subsequently blasted. > > > In http://www.kastenmarine.com/corrosion.htm this smoothness is also > commented on: > "The shot used for wheel abrading creates a surface that is > essentially a bunch of tiny smooth dents on the surface, whereas grit > blasting creates a sharp contour that provides the paint system with a > much better mechanical "bond" to the metal surface." > > > Yet curiously - the specification I have at hand for an Alaskan > Research Vessel reads: > "All new and disturbed areas (...) shall be wheelabrated or > gritblasted to near white metal (SSPC-SP10-63T) and coated (....). > The use of wheelabrated preprimed steel plates in the erection of > structure is encouraged." There is then further comment about the > need for certification of the systems used and approval of same. > > > So how are these two apparently contradictory scenarios reconciled ? > > > I discovered one possible answer in an ICI Devoe Coatings research > paper concerned with fabricating offshore wind turbines in North > America, entitled "Windmills - Fast Production Schedules with Novel > Zinc Primers and Polyaspartic Ester Topcoats", in which it states: > "Carbon steel plate was first wheelabraded to SSPC-SP10 Near White > Metal standard. A jagged profile of 2.5 - 3 mils was obtained using > an abrasive media consisting of 30% steel grit and 70% steel shot." > > > So that seems to be the secret - using a steel grit mix to roughen the > surface, and of course the grit component will have to be renewed at > intervals - hence the need for certification on Government contracts. > > But - British steel producers only use shot, hence their surfaces are > too smooth - so no-one wants that kind of plate steel - and therefore > it ain't produced for stock ... > > Presumably North American steel companies are more enlightened, but I > guess it's still always worth checking what's under the primer. > > Hope this helps solve the riddle. > > Colin > | 13045|13042|2007-04-09 12:20:00|Mike|Re: Switchable magnetic Ground Clamp|Alex, For god's sake, man, put your damn welding gloves on.(lol) That's the single greatest critique which I have about the DVD; neither you, nor Brent, seem concerned with the ultraviolet radiation that your/his hands are absorbing! Not to mention, ouch! (LMAO) Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > John Fisher gave me a sample ground clamp which has a switchable magnet (uses rare earth magnets which move inside a short barrel and can therefor cancel each other at the twist of a knob). I gave it a try today working on the Colvin ketch conversion to twin keel pilot house project I've got going, and I'm pleased with the results. Watch the video (very informal, please excuse the over-use of "basically" -- I'm rusty :p) here for your entertainment. You might also find entertainment in how long it took me to strike an arc with a 7024 rod (old)! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpa821yiE0 > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13046|13042|2007-04-09 14:03:01|Aaron Williams|Re: Switchable magnetic Ground Clamp|I worked with an old welder that never wore gloves while welding. His hands looked like he never wore em. Aaron Mike wrote: Alex, For god's sake, man, put your damn welding gloves on.(lol) That's the single greatest critique which I have about the DVD; neither you, nor Brent, seem concerned with the ultraviolet radiation that your/his hands are absorbing! Not to mention, ouch! (LMAO) Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > John Fisher gave me a sample ground clamp which has a switchable magnet (uses rare earth magnets which move inside a short barrel and can therefor cancel each other at the twist of a knob). I gave it a try today working on the Colvin ketch conversion to twin keel pilot house project I've got going, and I'm pleased with the results. Watch the video (very informal, please excuse the over-use of "basically" -- I'm rusty :p) here for your entertainment. You might also find entertainment in how long it took me to strike an arc with a 7024 rod (old)! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpa821yiE0 > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13047|13004|2007-04-09 14:35:46|heretic_37ft|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Hi Brent: Ref: Swain 37 +1', Builders; Brent Swain, Dan Henkel Inboard rudder I joined your forum after sitting on the sidelines gathering great info. And motivation! The boat you designed is absolutely the best boat for Hawaii! In fact it makes sailing fun again! Instead of wondering what (or who) is going to get bashed-in after a trip on a fiberglass boat! I see fiberglass boats with cracked hulls/keel-joints and broken masts every year (chain plates pulling out). With our Swain 37, when a large wave breaks and slams the bow sending beautiful green water covering the deck I have one finger on the helm as the boat rises still on course! What a feeling (almost better then xxxx). Not worried about cracking 3/16 steel! There are times when I must get home to windward in large seas (too) close to the wind with the diesel to get back to my job! A big iron hydraulic pilot would save me a few hours and give some rest. If it turns out to be a bad move I'll let you know! Most Respectfully, Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never had a > problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my clients in any > of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the problem with lack of > control is the popularity of very hard to control asymetrical hull > shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced hull shape > which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , makes any > self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to unbalanced > hull shapes. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running off, > as sea > > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface > moves back > > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of > the boat > > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave passes. As > > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes to > zero, or > > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which > causes the > > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst possible > > time. > > > > > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to > weather, > > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. > Running off > > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial > wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the > trim tab cannot do, which > > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize > the slew > > rate of the boat. > > > > > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the slew > rate of > > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm > conditions. As > > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over slowly, > > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and trim tab, > > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of pendulum to > > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the > pendulum to > > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course if > she gets > > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the > trim tab, > > because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - > > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing rapidly > on a > > large wave crest. > > > > > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is > stalled, the > > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the > direction of the > > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even more, > > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions worsen > this > > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but in > concept > > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, hinged to > > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a point > above the > > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat slews, > pulling > > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as conditions > > worsen. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > > concept) > > > > > > > > My comments.... > > > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most > challenging > > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty winds. > > > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no problem at > > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim > tab....normally > > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab which uses > > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use whichever > > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain on my > > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If I > ever get > > another boat it will have the same. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: heretic_37ft > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > concept) > > > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to install a > > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with inboard > > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > The fish are biting. > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13048|13042|2007-04-09 15:42:27|Alex Christie|Re: Switchable magnetic Ground Clamp|I wear gloves all the time when I'm welding, except for this short example. I expected a hue and cry over that :p ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Switchable magnetic Ground Clamp Alex, For god's sake, man, put your damn welding gloves on.(lol) That's the single greatest critique which I have about the DVD; neither you, nor Brent, seem concerned with the ultraviolet radiation that your/his hands are absorbing! Not to mention, ouch! (LMAO) Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > John Fisher gave me a sample ground clamp which has a switchable magnet (uses rare earth magnets which move inside a short barrel and can therefor cancel each other at the twist of a knob). I gave it a try today working on the Colvin ketch conversion to twin keel pilot house project I've got going, and I'm pleased with the results. Watch the video (very informal, please excuse the over-use of "basically" -- I'm rusty :p) here for your entertainment. You might also find entertainment in how long it took me to strike an arc with a 7024 rod (old)! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpa821yiE0 > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/752 - Release Date: 08/04/2007 8:34 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13049|11463|2007-04-09 21:09:53|Carl Anderson|Re: Sand Blasting|Just had MY quote here on VanIsl today and it was $.75/sq. ft. I figured the area on the boat at roughly 1175 sq. ft. So that puts it in the $900 range. He will use silica grit and go to white metal. Told me that he was figuring 6 hours for the job. He would be willing to do half one day and they the other half the next to help with painting schedules. for what its worth, Carl Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 04:32:54AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > I just received a price from a Vancouver Island soda blaster. He > > wants $800 CDN to soda blast a 36 hull, deck and house. > > I wish I'd been there instead of here (Florida) when I hired my last > sandblasting contractor. Almost $7000 US by the time it was all done for > 34' LOA - and that's just the hull! To be fair, that was actually two > passes (blast before welding, then reblast and prime after), but *damn* > that was high. And yes, I did shop around; that was the going price in > this part of the world. $800 CDN sounds like an amazing deal from where > I'm sitting. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 13050|13050|2007-04-10 00:17:14|shaunbarrymcmillan|sand blsting and epoxy prices|Just reviewing the prices on sand blasting it seems quite expensive (especially in the US) combined with the price of epoxy paint -inside and out- aluminium starts to sound okay--especially considering the re- sale. There are a lot of unpainted fish boats around B.C. it can't be all bad (ie electrolysis)| 13051|13050|2007-04-10 01:47:11|Aaron Williams|Re: sand blsting and epoxy prices|I had a qoute from Seaport steel in Seattle last year for a BS36 Blasted and primed with Devo302 ( Zink Primer) for $10,000 I thought that was a darn good price. Hell of a lot cheaper than my time would be worth wasting when I could be just cutting and welding. The bummer was timing I ended up on a 8 week Federal jury trial and did not get it ordered. Now life is getting in the way again. The trial was about a 2 part marine paint system that went bad on a job in Kodiak Alaska. Aaron shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: Just reviewing the prices on sand blasting it seems quite expensive (especially in the US) combined with the price of epoxy paint -inside and out- aluminium starts to sound okay--especially considering the re- sale. There are a lot of unpainted fish boats around B.C. it can't be all bad (ie electrolysis) --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13052|13052|2007-04-10 01:57:25|jnikadie|last minute welding ...|I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. So, what should I be thinking of? e.g.: - studs for zincs - pad-eyes around the mast - hinges for hatches and companionway door - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner ??? I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, right?| 13053|13053|2007-04-10 02:31:35|jnikadie|drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel - 1-1/4" shaft - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? From I see that my stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 $40.94 (brass)). This seems to work OK with an 18" prop (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? Thanks, Julian.| 13054|13053|2007-04-10 03:28:47|Paul Wilson|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|If you have a choice go for a 1 1/4 inch shaft instead of a 1 1/8 inch. I have a 1 1/8 inch shaft and used props are much harder to find. I would also go for heavy walled tubing for the shaft tube. An old timer told me to use Shelby (Seamless Mechanical) tubing which is about 3/8 inch thick...lots of thickness so it doesn't distort at all when being welded and it has lots of meat for machining in any kind of bearing you want. It can corrode away for years if you have any paint problems inside. I can't remember what it all cost but I remember it was quite reasonable at the time (15 years ago). I had it all set up by my local machine shop (Dafoe Machine Shop in Vancouver) and they sold me the whole works. 18 inch is a huge prop for a 36 foot boat. That's a lot of prop to drag around when sailing. I now have a 14 x 10 prop with a 1.5/1 gearbox and a 35 horse Isuzu diesel. Every one says it looks too small but with the higher prop speed due to the gearbox it works great. I used to have a bigger prop and it overloaded the engine. I was blowing black smoke and now with the smaller prop it makes better use of the engine. Also, for your info, it is possible to buy nylon inserts for putting a larger prop on a smaller shaft. They look like a nylon tapered cone that you cut to fit. I am not sure where you buy them but I used one for a few years. Hope this helps, Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: jnikadie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel - 1-1/4" shaft - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? From I see that my stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145" ) - which matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft might make sense (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 $40.94 (brass)). This seems to work OK with an 18" prop (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? Thanks, Julian. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13055|13052|2007-04-10 09:19:15|khooper_fboats|Re: last minute welding ...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > right? Has anybody considered insulating under the deck with ceramic fiber instead of urethane? For just that reason, ceramic can stand 2300 degrees or so, meaning you should be able to weld without removing the insulation at all (ceramic fiber is what they use for welding blankets now I think instead of asbestos). I was looking around and it seems like you can get 1" thick for ~1.00 sq/ft. I am one of the ones who is going to have to re-do all the deck fittings many times if it's like everything else I build so don't want to have to remove ceiling and insulation to weld on the deck. Ken| 13056|13052|2007-04-10 09:26:25|Tom|Re: last minute welding ...|I would say if youre doing like I am , blasting and painting inside and out do everything you can before painting , trying to do it after would get messey and be a lot of extra work. On mine I think I will rough in the interior before blasting, lots of tabs to go in. What suprises me is how time consuming all the little stuff is , heck I have a couple days in just building and installing the hatches and I will probably have a few days in the windows by the time there done. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jnikadie" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] last minute welding ... > I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to > make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. > > So, what should I be thinking of? > > e.g.: > > - studs for zincs > - pad-eyes around the mast > - hinges for hatches and companionway door > - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner > > ??? > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > right? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13057|13053|2007-04-10 09:52:41|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" shaft, was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no issues. Hope this helps Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: jnikadie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel - 1-1/4" shaft - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? From I see that my stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 $40.94 (brass)). This seems to work OK with an 18" prop (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? Thanks, Julian. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13058|13053|2007-04-10 11:33:53|Carl Anderson|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|Julian, I was warned by Klassen not to use a 1 1/8" shaft as it is NOT standard. Trouble finding props will result. I plan on using a 18 X 13 prop on my boat too. But it is a two blade & will hide behind the aperature when sailing. Carl jnikadie wrote: > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > - 1-1/4" shaft > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > >From > I see that my > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com > CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > $40.94 (brass)). > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com > MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > | 13059|13052|2007-04-10 17:53:39|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: last minute welding ...|The problem with useing anything other then spray in foam is it alows some air next to the skin. If any air circulates next to the skin there is condensation and the chance for rust. Spray foam is the only thing that seals the air circulation out compleatly. It creates a lot of other problems so planning ahead and dry fitting what you can is important. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I would say if youre doing like I am , blasting and painting inside and out > do everything you can before painting , trying to do it after would get > messey and be a lot of extra work. > On mine I think I will rough in the interior before blasting, lots of tabs > to go in. > What suprises me is how time consuming all the little stuff is , heck I > have a couple days in just building and installing the hatches and I will > probably have a few days in the windows by the time there done. > Tom | 13060|12939|2007-04-10 17:56:12|brentswain38|Re: Construction site|I'm just trying to set a good example for the rest of you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Yeah but you're always off galavanting in the Pacific! > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > A guy once asked me where he could find a hull and > > deck for sale . I > > told him to buy a load of steel and in 2 or 3 weeks > > we'd make it into > > ahull and deck in far less time and for far less > > hassle than it takes > > to negotiate, buy and move an existing hull. He did > > that and three > > wekds later he had his hull and decks. Origami > > building techniques > > make the hull the simplest part. The last one I did > > took les than two > > weeks. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I would certainly think twice about building > > from > > > scratch. Better have that done by a builder and > > finish > > > it later (probably quicker & cheaper too - I can > > > continue working and earning a paycheck but > > perhaps > > > not as satisfying) > > > Just out of curiosity, how do you plan on hauling > > your > > > boats to a marina? How high is a Swain 36? Can it > > be > > > hauled to a marina without all sorts of problems > > with > > > overhead obstructions & permits etc? > > > > > > > > > --- Paul wrote: > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yeah that was my point too. Will your > > mini-storage > > > > > need a new manager anytime soon? > > > > > > > > Probably in a couple of years. I am building a > > pair > > > > of boats now, > > > > cutting my teeth on building bigger and when > > they > > > > are done (hopefully > > > > one this summer, one by the end of the year) I > > will > > > > start on something > > > > larger that will be my "retirement home" and I > > will > > > > retire early and go > > > > sailing. > > > > > > > > Paul H > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > It's here! Your new message! > > > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > | 13061|13052|2007-04-10 17:56:21|brentswain38|Re: last minute welding ...|I used to think a 6000 cfm compressor was big. That place in Coombs , where I buuilt Victor's boat has a 1800 cfm compressor . It uses several nozzles at once on the blaster. The hopper is roughly 8 ft diameter and 8 ft high. Get a quote from them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to > make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. > > So, what should I be thinking of? > > e.g.: > > - studs for zincs > - pad-eyes around the mast > - hinges for hatches and companionway door > - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner > > ??? > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > right? > | 13062|13052|2007-04-10 17:56:49|brentswain38|Re: last minute welding ...|I tried fibreglass once . It got very sogggy. Didn't work. In dont belive ceramic fibre would be any different. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > > right? > > Has anybody considered insulating under the deck with ceramic fiber > instead of urethane? For just that reason, ceramic can stand 2300 > degrees or so, meaning you should be able to weld without removing the > insulation at all (ceramic fiber is what they use for welding blankets > now I think instead of asbestos). I was looking around and it seems > like you can get 1" thick for ~1.00 sq/ft. I am one of the ones who is > going to have to re-do all the deck fittings many times if it's like > everything else I build so don't want to have to remove ceiling and > insulation to weld on the deck. > > Ken > | 13063|13004|2007-04-10 17:58:09|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|That rudder is close enough to the transom to convert to outboard rudder wit little or no skeg work. Just weld in a flatbar to close the gap a bit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" wrote: > > Hi Brent: > > Ref: Swain 37 +1', Builders; Brent Swain, Dan Henkel > Inboard rudder > > I joined your forum after sitting on the sidelines gathering great > info. And motivation! > > The boat you designed is absolutely the best boat for Hawaii! In > fact it makes sailing fun again! Instead of wondering what (or who) > is going to get bashed-in after a trip on a fiberglass boat! I see > fiberglass boats with cracked hulls/keel-joints and broken masts > every year (chain plates pulling out). > > With our Swain 37, when a large wave breaks and slams the bow > sending beautiful green water covering the deck I have one finger on > the helm as the boat rises still on course! What a feeling (almost > better then xxxx). Not worried about cracking 3/16 steel! > > There are times when I must get home to windward in large seas (too) > close to the wind with the diesel to get back to my job! A big iron > hydraulic pilot would save me a few hours and give some rest. If it > turns out to be a bad move I'll let you know! > > Most Respectfully, > Heretic_37ft > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never had a > > problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my clients in > any > > of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the problem with > lack of > > control is the popularity of very hard to control asymetrical hull > > shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced hull shape > > which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , makes > any > > self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to unbalanced > > hull shapes. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running > off, > > as sea > > > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface > > moves back > > > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of > > the boat > > > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave > passes. As > > > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes > to > > zero, or > > > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which > > causes the > > > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst > possible > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to > > weather, > > > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. > > Running off > > > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial > > wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the > > trim tab cannot do, which > > > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize > > the slew > > > rate of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the > slew > > rate of > > > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm > > conditions. As > > > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over > slowly, > > > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and > trim tab, > > > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of > pendulum to > > > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the > > pendulum to > > > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course > if > > she gets > > > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the > > trim tab, > > > because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - > > > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing > rapidly > > on a > > > large wave crest. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is > > stalled, the > > > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the > > direction of the > > > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even > more, > > > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions > worsen > > this > > > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but > in > > concept > > > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, > hinged to > > > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a > point > > above the > > > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat > slews, > > pulling > > > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as > conditions > > > worsen. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big > iron > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > > > My comments.... > > > > > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most > > challenging > > > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty > winds. > > > > > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no > problem at > > > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim > > tab....normally > > > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab > which uses > > > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use > whichever > > > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain > on my > > > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If > I > > ever get > > > another boat it will have the same. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: heretic_37ft 40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > > concept) > > > > > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to > install a > > > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > > > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with > inboard > > > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > The fish are biting. > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13064|13053|2007-04-10 18:29:10|jnikadie|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|Paul, Excellent tip on the nylon bore reducers ... Google found this for me: http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/series.aspx?id=172 I like the idea of the smaller prop (or two-blade) giving less drag while sailing ... but I'll probably start with what I've got and look at modifying later (ideally when I come across a good deal somewhere). Thanks, Julian. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If you have a choice go for a 1 1/4 inch shaft instead of a 1 1/8 inch. I have a 1 1/8 inch shaft and used props are much harder to find. I would also go for heavy walled tubing for the shaft tube. An old timer told me to use Shelby (Seamless Mechanical) tubing which is about 3/8 inch thick...lots of thickness so it doesn't distort at all when being welded and it has lots of meat for machining in any kind of bearing you want. It can corrode away for years if you have any paint problems inside. I can't remember what it all cost but I remember it was quite reasonable at the time (15 years ago). I had it all set up by my local machine shop (Dafoe Machine Shop in Vancouver) and they sold me the whole works. > > 18 inch is a huge prop for a 36 foot boat. That's a lot of prop to drag around when sailing. I now have a 14 x 10 prop with a 1.5/1 gearbox and a 35 horse Isuzu diesel. Every one says it looks too small but with the higher prop speed due to the gearbox it works great. I used to have a bigger prop and it overloaded the engine. I was blowing black smoke and now with the smaller prop it makes better use of the engine. > > Also, for your info, it is possible to buy nylon inserts for putting a larger prop on a smaller shaft. They look like a nylon tapered cone that you cut to fit. I am not sure where you buy them but I used one for a few years. > > Hope this helps, > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > - 1-1/4" shaft > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > From I see that my > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145" ) - which > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > might make sense (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > $40.94 (brass)). > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13065|13030|2007-04-10 18:56:49|jnikadie|Re: height of a swain 36|My bilge-keeler is about 8' from ground to bulwark-pipe, and about 4' from deck to the top of the handrail over the companionway ... so, about 12' all up. The pilothouse is a little higher than the bow pulpit. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My fin keel 36 is about 12 feet from the bottom of the keel to the highest point which is the bow pulpit. I don't have the pilothouse on mine but I don't think it would be any higher than that. Twin keels, of course would be shorter. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2007 4:59:19 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] height of a swain 36 > > hi. someone asked the height of a Swain 36'. If I rememeber correctly > from ground to the top of my pilothouse, door rail is under 12 feet. > It's been awhile since I measured it and I am away from my boat at > present but I'm prety sure 12 ft. would be the max for a twin keeler. > > Rowland > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13066|13052|2007-04-10 19:04:38|jnikadie|Re: last minute welding ...|All I can say is "Wow!". I'm guessing that's not a portable unit ... are they mobile as well? Do you have contact details? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I used to think a 6000 cfm compressor was big. That place in Coombs , > where I buuilt Victor's boat has a 1800 cfm compressor . It uses > several nozzles at once on the blaster. The hopper is roughly 8 ft > diameter and 8 ft high. Get a quote from them. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to > > make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. > > > > So, what should I be thinking of? > > > > e.g.: > > > > - studs for zincs > > - pad-eyes around the mast > > - hinges for hatches and companionway door > > - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner > > > > ??? > > > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > > right? > > > | 13067|13052|2007-04-10 19:11:22|Alex Christie|Re: last minute welding ...|I saw they had a big truck there with a hopper on it. Nice unit, quite new looking. Alex On 10-Apr-07, at 4:02 PM, jnikadie wrote: > > All I can say is "Wow!". > > I'm guessing that's not a portable unit ... are they mobile as well? > > Do you have contact details? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13068|13004|2007-04-10 20:48:34|heretic_37ft|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Hi Brent: Since I did not build the ship, I now have a wheel (ugh). The owner who finished the boat, Mr. Dan Henkel, preferred the wheel idea because of all that tacking on San Francisco Bay. I know what it is like sailing in a crowded channel (i.e. Marina Del Rey, CA on Sunday afternoon in the summer). I was very close to taking your advice about going back to a tiller. My sailing partner (the significant other) really thinks the boat sails great with Mr. Henkel's hydraulic wheel arrangement. My girlfriend who is quite small likes standing with the wheel straight forward and the engine controls/compass up high on the pedestal (heads up display concept). When Karl sailed to Hawaii, one morning I woke up to see a Swain 36' next to my boat, I saw in person the correct arrangement. I admit I was jealous for a moment. This was the only other Swain I had seen ever. Karl sailed back to BC, after I flew him around in my Aztec (which has hydraulic landing gear and flaps). There are aviators who hate retractable hydraulic landing gear because of the maintenance costing huge amounts of money and down time. But, it does give 20 knots (helpful if you are at 160kts instead of 140kts in a reciprocating aircraft). But, there is "sticker shock"! I fully agree that a tiller is the correct way to sail as mentioned in your book for me and most others. I have read the book several times! Enjoying ever page and picture! Just thought I would try something new. I am known to take the lone road at times. Respectfully, Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That rudder is close enough to the transom to convert to outboard > rudder wit little or no skeg work. Just weld in a flatbar to close the > gap a bit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent: > > > > Ref: Swain 37 +1', Builders; Brent Swain, Dan Henkel > > Inboard rudder > > > > I joined your forum after sitting on the sidelines gathering great > > info. And motivation! > > > > The boat you designed is absolutely the best boat for Hawaii! In > > fact it makes sailing fun again! Instead of wondering what (or who) > > is going to get bashed-in after a trip on a fiberglass boat! I see > > fiberglass boats with cracked hulls/keel-joints and broken masts > > every year (chain plates pulling out). > > > > With our Swain 37, when a large wave breaks and slams the bow > > sending beautiful green water covering the deck I have one finger on > > the helm as the boat rises still on course! What a feeling (almost > > better then xxxx). Not worried about cracking 3/16 steel! > > > > There are times when I must get home to windward in large seas (too) > > close to the wind with the diesel to get back to my job! A big iron > > hydraulic pilot would save me a few hours and give some rest. If it > > turns out to be a bad move I'll let you know! > > > > Most Respectfully, > > Heretic_37ft > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never had a > > > problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my clients in > > any > > > of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the problem with > > lack of > > > control is the popularity of very hard to control asymetrical hull > > > shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced hull shape > > > which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , makes > > any > > > self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to unbalanced > > > hull shapes. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. Running > > off, > > > as sea > > > > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the surface > > > moves back > > > > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent speed of > > > the boat > > > > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave > > passes. As > > > > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed goes > > to > > > zero, or > > > > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This which > > > causes the > > > > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the worst > > possible > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching or to > > > weather, > > > > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work best. > > > Running off > > > > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most commercial > > > wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something the > > > trim tab cannot do, which > > > > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that maximize > > > the slew > > > > rate of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits the > > slew > > > rate of > > > > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm > > > conditions. As > > > > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning over > > slowly, > > > > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder and > > trim tab, > > > > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of > > pendulum to > > > > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want the > > > pendulum to > > > > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto course > > if > > > she gets > > > > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply correct the > > > trim tab, > > > > because there is not enough positive water flow over the rudder - > > > > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing > > rapidly > > > on a > > > > large wave crest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is > > > stalled, the > > > > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the > > > direction of the > > > > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even > > more, > > > > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As conditions > > worsen > > > this > > > > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, but > > in > > > concept > > > > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the water, > > hinged to > > > > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a > > point > > > above the > > > > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat > > slews, > > > pulling > > > > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as > > conditions > > > > worsen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big > > iron > > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comments.... > > > > > > > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the most > > > challenging > > > > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with nasty > > winds. > > > > > > > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no > > problem at > > > > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim > > > tab....normally > > > > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab > > which uses > > > > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I use > > whichever > > > > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the drain > > on my > > > > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to go. If > > I > > > ever get > > > > another boat it will have the same. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: heretic_37ft > 40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron > > > concept) > > > > > > > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to > > install a > > > > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty winds. > > > > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with > > inboard > > > > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > The fish are biting. > > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 13069|13053|2007-04-10 20:53:01|Tom|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|With freezing it, wouldnt it be a real bugger to get out if one had to ? I allways thought you needed extra clearance for painting inside tube and a couple set screws to hold berring in place and a couple holes as far forward as possable to lube berring with water. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to > see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" shaft, > was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before > installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as > possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a > block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no issues. > > Hope this helps > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > - 1-1/4" shaft > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > From I see that my > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > $40.94 (brass)). > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13070|11463|2007-04-10 21:19:15|Tom|Re: Sand Blasting|Hey Carl That is pretty cheap .75 a sq foot, I think I spent about that doing it myself but I was paying about $7 a 100 lb sack and close to a gallon of gas per sack. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Anderson" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sand Blasting > Just had MY quote here on VanIsl today and it was $.75/sq. ft. > I figured the area on the boat at roughly 1175 sq. ft. > So that puts it in the $900 range. > He will use silica grit and go to white metal. > Told me that he was figuring 6 hours for the job. > He would be willing to do half one day and they the other half the next > to help with painting schedules. > > for what its worth, > Carl > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 04:32:54AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: >> > I just received a price from a Vancouver Island soda blaster. He >> > wants $800 CDN to soda blast a 36 hull, deck and house. >> >> I wish I'd been there instead of here (Florida) when I hired my last >> sandblasting contractor. Almost $7000 US by the time it was all done for >> 34' LOA - and that's just the hull! To be fair, that was actually two >> passes (blast before welding, then reblast and prime after), but *damn* >> that was high. And yes, I did shop around; that was the going price in >> this part of the world. $800 CDN sounds like an amazing deal from where >> I'm sitting. >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >> http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13071|12968|2007-04-11 23:58:55|Alex Christie|Bare Hull for sale|My bare steel hull is available to buy, $16,750 CDN, 36 feet long, twin keeled, stainless detailed. Contact Alex at achristie@... for more details! Alex| 13072|13053|2007-04-12 18:16:09|echo6@cableone.net|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|I'm using 2" schedule160 on my boat for a 1.25" shaft. The dimensions are 2.375"od and 1.687" id. I'm going to bore the aft end to 1.75" for the cutlass bearing and turn the inboard end to 2.25" for the dripless shaft seal. This pipe gives plenty of stiffness and corrosion allowance and also enough metal around the cutlass bearing. I haven't sized the prop, but I will probably go with a 3 blade. On Tue Apr 10 6:30 , 'jnikadie' sent: > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > >yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > > >- Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > > - 1-1/4" shaft > > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > > >Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > > >Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > > >From I see that my > >stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > >matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > >(1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > >a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > > >Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > >might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > >4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > >$40.94 (brass)). > > > >This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > >(http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > >(3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > > >Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > > >- replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > > >- replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > >(and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > > >- replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > >for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > > >Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > > >Thanks, > >Julian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net| 13073|13053|2007-04-12 18:37:04|brentswain38|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|I've seen many a 1 1/4 inch shaft in 1 1/2 inch pipe .No problem. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If you have a choice go for a 1 1/4 inch shaft instead of a 1 1/8 inch. I have a 1 1/8 inch shaft and used props are much harder to find. I would also go for heavy walled tubing for the shaft tube. An old timer told me to use Shelby (Seamless Mechanical) tubing which is about 3/8 inch thick...lots of thickness so it doesn't distort at all when being welded and it has lots of meat for machining in any kind of bearing you want. It can corrode away for years if you have any paint problems inside. I can't remember what it all cost but I remember it was quite reasonable at the time (15 years ago). I had it all set up by my local machine shop (Dafoe Machine Shop in Vancouver) and they sold me the whole works. > > 18 inch is a huge prop for a 36 foot boat. That's a lot of prop to drag around when sailing. I now have a 14 x 10 prop with a 1.5/1 gearbox and a 35 horse Isuzu diesel. Every one says it looks too small but with the higher prop speed due to the gearbox it works great. I used to have a bigger prop and it overloaded the engine. I was blowing black smoke and now with the smaller prop it makes better use of the engine. > > Also, for your info, it is possible to buy nylon inserts for putting a larger prop on a smaller shaft. They look like a nylon tapered cone that you cut to fit. I am not sure where you buy them but I used one for a few years. > > Hope this helps, > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > - 1-1/4" shaft > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > From I see that my > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145" ) - which > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1- 5/8" > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > might make sense (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > $40.94 (brass)). > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > (http://www.deepblue yachtsupply. com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13074|13004|2007-04-12 18:38:43|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|A former airforce guy told me of a huge cargo plane that uses only trimtabs . Resting on the runway, all the control surfaces hang down When it gets moving they spring to life. There was so much power in them that they had to put hydraulic feedback in so some one wouldn't rip the wings off her. If you use the trim tab system in my book that Dai Neale used , your girlfriend could steer the boat in a big quarering sea with her little finger. When Don went thru the Red Sea, the pilot sat on the cabintop under an awning , steering with a piece of string tied to the trim tab, snickering all the way. Tacking is much easier and quicker with a tiller. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" wrote: > > Hi Brent: > > Since I did not build the ship, I now have a wheel (ugh). The owner > who finished the boat, Mr. Dan Henkel, preferred the wheel idea > because of all that tacking on San Francisco Bay. I know what it is > like sailing in a crowded channel (i.e. Marina Del Rey, CA on Sunday > afternoon in the summer). > > I was very close to taking your advice about going back to a > tiller. My sailing partner (the significant other) really thinks > the boat sails great with Mr. Henkel's hydraulic wheel arrangement. > My girlfriend who is quite small likes standing with the wheel > straight forward and the engine controls/compass up high on the > pedestal (heads up display concept). > > When Karl sailed to Hawaii, one morning I woke up to see a Swain 36' > next to my boat, I saw in person the correct arrangement. I admit I > was jealous for a moment. This was the only other Swain I had seen > ever. Karl sailed back to BC, after I flew him around in my Aztec > (which has hydraulic landing gear and flaps). There are aviators > who hate retractable hydraulic landing gear because of the > maintenance costing huge amounts of money and down time. But, it > does give 20 knots (helpful if you are at 160kts instead of 140kts > in a reciprocating aircraft). But, there is "sticker shock"! > > I fully agree that a tiller is the correct way to sail as mentioned > in your book for me and most others. I have read the book several > times! Enjoying ever page and picture! > > Just thought I would try something new. I am known to take the lone > road at times. > > Respectfully, > Heretic_37ft > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > That rudder is close enough to the transom to convert to outboard > > rudder wit little or no skeg work. Just weld in a flatbar to close > the > > gap a bit. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent: > > > > > > Ref: Swain 37 +1', Builders; Brent Swain, Dan Henkel > > > Inboard rudder > > > > > > I joined your forum after sitting on the sidelines gathering > great > > > info. And motivation! > > > > > > The boat you designed is absolutely the best boat for Hawaii! > In > > > fact it makes sailing fun again! Instead of wondering what (or > who) > > > is going to get bashed-in after a trip on a fiberglass boat! I > see > > > fiberglass boats with cracked hulls/keel-joints and broken masts > > > every year (chain plates pulling out). > > > > > > With our Swain 37, when a large wave breaks and slams the bow > > > sending beautiful green water covering the deck I have one > finger on > > > the helm as the boat rises still on course! What a feeling > (almost > > > better then xxxx). Not worried about cracking 3/16 steel! > > > > > > There are times when I must get home to windward in large seas > (too) > > > close to the wind with the diesel to get back to my job! A big > iron > > > hydraulic pilot would save me a few hours and give some rest. > If it > > > turns out to be a bad move I'll let you know! > > > > > > Most Respectfully, > > > Heretic_37ft > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never > had a > > > > problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my clients > in > > > any > > > > of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the problem > with > > > lack of > > > > control is the popularity of very hard to control asymetrical > hull > > > > shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced hull > shape > > > > which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , > makes > > > any > > > > self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to > unbalanced > > > > hull shapes. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. > Running > > > off, > > > > as sea > > > > > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the > surface > > > > moves back > > > > > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent > speed of > > > > the boat > > > > > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each wave > > > passes. As > > > > > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed > goes > > > to > > > > zero, or > > > > > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This > which > > > > causes the > > > > > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the > worst > > > possible > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is reaching > or to > > > > weather, > > > > > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work > best. > > > > Running off > > > > > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most > commercial > > > > wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. Something > the > > > > trim tab cannot do, which > > > > > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that > maximize > > > > the slew > > > > > rate of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits > the > > > slew > > > > rate of > > > > > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm > > > > conditions. As > > > > > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning > over > > > slowly, > > > > > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder > and > > > trim tab, > > > > > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort of > > > pendulum to > > > > > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You want > the > > > > pendulum to > > > > > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto > course > > > if > > > > she gets > > > > > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply > correct the > > > > trim tab, > > > > > because there is not enough positive water flow over the > rudder - > > > > > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is slewing > > > rapidly > > > > on a > > > > > large wave crest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab is > > > > stalled, the > > > > > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the > > > > direction of the > > > > > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over even > > > more, > > > > > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As > conditions > > > worsen > > > > this > > > > > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for this, > but > > > in > > > > concept > > > > > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the > water, > > > hinged to > > > > > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to a > > > point > > > > above the > > > > > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the boat > > > slews, > > > > pulling > > > > > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew as > > > conditions > > > > > worsen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering > (big > > > iron > > > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comments.... > > > > > > > > > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the > most > > > > challenging > > > > > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with > nasty > > > winds. > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was no > > > problem at > > > > > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim > > > > tab....normally > > > > > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim tab > > > which uses > > > > > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I > use > > > whichever > > > > > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the > drain > > > on my > > > > > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to > go. If > > > I > > > > ever get > > > > > another boat it will have the same. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: heretic_37ft > > 40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big > iron > > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided to > > > install a > > > > > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty > winds. > > > > > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with > > > inboard > > > > > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > The fish are biting. > > > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > > > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13075|13052|2007-04-12 18:39:09|brentswain38|Re: last minute welding ...|It's on the back of a truck, very portable. Alex can tell you where to find them. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > All I can say is "Wow!". > > I'm guessing that's not a portable unit ... are they mobile as well? > > Do you have contact details? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I used to think a 6000 cfm compressor was big. That place in Coombs , > > where I buuilt Victor's boat has a 1800 cfm compressor . It uses > > several nozzles at once on the blaster. The hopper is roughly 8 ft > > diameter and 8 ft high. Get a quote from them. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to > > > make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. > > > > > > So, what should I be thinking of? > > > > > > e.g.: > > > > > > - studs for zincs > > > - pad-eyes around the mast > > > - hinges for hatches and companionway door > > > - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > > > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > > > right? > > > > > > | 13076|13052|2007-04-12 18:39:28|brentswain38|Re: last minute welding ...|Julian I plan to be heading your way in the next few weeks . I'd like to check her out for any last minute items. You could also pick me up on one of your weekend trips north. What's your latest cell phone number? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > I'm getting close to sand blasting and painting ... just trying to > make sure I've got as much as possible of the metalwork done first. > > So, what should I be thinking of? > > e.g.: > > - studs for zincs > - pad-eyes around the mast > - hinges for hatches and companionway door > - tabs for bulkheads & ceiling liner > > ??? > > I know it's not my last chance (once the foam is in place it's a bit > hard to cut/weld), but the more I've done before painting the better, > right? > | 13077|13004|2007-04-12 23:03:57|heretic_37ft|Re: Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering (big iron concept)|Hi Brent: There are three types of "tabs" that originated from the fly boys. 1) Servo tabs: to deflect a larger control service 2) Trim tabs: to keep a control surface from moving with neutral stability 3) Anti-trim tabs: to keep a control surface from moving with positive stability A Piper Aztec has all three. To pass a FAA check ride you must explain them to the check pilot. Before hydraulics, large aircraft were flown using servo/trim/anti tabs in various configurations. The response time with a servo trim tab going slow (landing configuration, lots of air seperation) is slow. Therefore to keep it safe, very powerful hydraulics are used now for very acurate control. Our (beautiful) Swain 36 + 1' sails fine using a servo tab and that is what I would prefer! But, the "supreme master" of the ship doesn't want to use a tiller (I do)! She is a button pusher. As the song goes "One day they will learn...". And when she learns, I can get my vane back in action! Thank you for your guidance. Tell Karl "Hello" from Hawaii! All this tech talk makes me want to sail the boat!!! Respectfully, Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A former airforce guy told me of a huge cargo plane that uses only > trimtabs . Resting on the runway, all the control surfaces hang down > When it gets moving they spring to life. There was so much power in > them that they had to put hydraulic feedback in so some one wouldn't > rip the wings off her. If you use the trim tab system in my book > that Dai Neale used , your girlfriend could steer the boat in a big > quarering sea with her little finger. When Don went thru the Red > Sea, the pilot sat on the cabintop under an awning , steering with a > piece of string tied to the trim tab, snickering all the way. > Tacking is much easier and quicker with a tiller. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent: > > > > Since I did not build the ship, I now have a wheel (ugh). The > owner > > who finished the boat, Mr. Dan Henkel, preferred the wheel idea > > because of all that tacking on San Francisco Bay. I know what it > is > > like sailing in a crowded channel (i.e. Marina Del Rey, CA on > Sunday > > afternoon in the summer). > > > > I was very close to taking your advice about going back to a > > tiller. My sailing partner (the significant other) really thinks > > the boat sails great with Mr. Henkel's hydraulic wheel > arrangement. > > My girlfriend who is quite small likes standing with the wheel > > straight forward and the engine controls/compass up high on the > > pedestal (heads up display concept). > > > > When Karl sailed to Hawaii, one morning I woke up to see a Swain > 36' > > next to my boat, I saw in person the correct arrangement. I admit > I > > was jealous for a moment. This was the only other Swain I had > seen > > ever. Karl sailed back to BC, after I flew him around in my Aztec > > (which has hydraulic landing gear and flaps). There are aviators > > who hate retractable hydraulic landing gear because of the > > maintenance costing huge amounts of money and down time. But, it > > does give 20 knots (helpful if you are at 160kts instead of 140kts > > in a reciprocating aircraft). But, there is "sticker shock"! > > > > I fully agree that a tiller is the correct way to sail as > mentioned > > in your book for me and most others. I have read the book several > > times! Enjoying ever page and picture! > > > > Just thought I would try something new. I am known to take the > lone > > road at times. > > > > Respectfully, > > Heretic_37ft > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > That rudder is close enough to the transom to convert to outboard > > > rudder wit little or no skeg work. Just weld in a flatbar to > close > > the > > > gap a bit. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent: > > > > > > > > Ref: Swain 37 +1', Builders; Brent Swain, Dan Henkel > > > > Inboard rudder > > > > > > > > I joined your forum after sitting on the sidelines gathering > > great > > > > info. And motivation! > > > > > > > > The boat you designed is absolutely the best boat for Hawaii! > > In > > > > fact it makes sailing fun again! Instead of wondering what (or > > who) > > > > is going to get bashed-in after a trip on a fiberglass boat! > I > > see > > > > fiberglass boats with cracked hulls/keel-joints and broken > masts > > > > every year (chain plates pulling out). > > > > > > > > With our Swain 37, when a large wave breaks and slams the bow > > > > sending beautiful green water covering the deck I have one > > finger on > > > > the helm as the boat rises still on course! What a feeling > > (almost > > > > better then xxxx). Not worried about cracking 3/16 steel! > > > > > > > > There are times when I must get home to windward in large seas > > (too) > > > > close to the wind with the diesel to get back to my job! A > big > > iron > > > > hydraulic pilot would save me a few hours and give some rest. > > If it > > > > turns out to be a bad move I'll let you know! > > > > > > > > Most Respectfully, > > > > Heretic_37ft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I the last 23 years and several Pacific crossings I've never > > had a > > > > > problem with my trim tab steering, nor have any of my > clients > > in > > > > any > > > > > of my origami designs ,in any conditions. Part of the > problem > > with > > > > lack of > > > > > control is the popularity of very hard to control > asymetrical > > hull > > > > > shapes. Whatever self steering you use , a well balanced > hull > > shape > > > > > which avoids the combination of lean bows and wide sterns , > > makes > > > > any > > > > > self steering more effective.Problems are usually due to > > unbalanced > > > > > hull shapes. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Aft hung rudders with trim tabs work well to a point. > > Running > > > > off, > > > > > as sea > > > > > > state increases, you run into a problem. Water near the > > surface > > > > > moves back > > > > > > and forth as each wave passes. This causes the apparent > > speed of > > > > > the boat > > > > > > relative to the water to increase and decrease as each > wave > > > > passes. As > > > > > > waves get bigger, you reach the point where the boat speed > > goes > > > > to > > > > > zero, or > > > > > > even negative in breaking seas, on the wave crests. This > > which > > > > > causes the > > > > > > rudder to stop working, or even turn the wrong way at the > > worst > > > > possible > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hawaii can be challenging. Most of the sailing is > reaching > > or to > > > > > weather, > > > > > > conditions in which the trim tab and aft hung rudder work > > best. > > > > > Running off > > > > > > in storm seas you need an alternative strategy. Most > > commercial > > > > > wind vanesany > have a paddle that can detect slew. > Something > > the > > > > > trim tab cannot do, which > > > > > > limits its effectiveness when you are in conditions that > > maximize > > > > > the slew > > > > > > rate of the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a preventer on the tiller to windward, which limits > > the > > > > slew > > > > > rate of > > > > > > the boat if she is caught by a huge wave, is vital in storm > > > > > conditions. As > > > > > > conditions worsen, we found that having the engine turning > > over > > > > slowly, > > > > > > which helps maintain a positive water flow over the rudder > > and > > > > trim tab, > > > > > > helps a great deal in storm conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, an aft hung rudder and trim tab, with some sort > of > > > > pendulum to > > > > > > detect and correct for slew would be the answer. You > want > > the > > > > > pendulum to > > > > > > take over for the preventer, pull the boat hard back onto > > course > > > > if > > > > > she gets > > > > > > caught by a big wave. It is not sufficient to simply > > correct the > > > > > trim tab, > > > > > > because there is not enough positive water flow over the > > rudder - > > > > > > effectively the trim tab is stalled when the boat is > slewing > > > > rapidly > > > > > on a > > > > > > large wave crest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the aft hung rudder is unbalanced, once the trim tab > is > > > > > stalled, the > > > > > > water pressure of the slewing boat forces the rudder in the > > > > > direction of the > > > > > > slew, increasing the slew rate, pushing the rudder over > even > > > > more, > > > > > > increasing the slew rate even more, etc. etc.. As > > conditions > > > > worsen > > > > > this > > > > > > will eventually lead to a broach or a roll over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen a simple mechanism to correct for > this, > > but > > > > in > > > > > concept > > > > > > it is simple enough. A steel paddle hung down into the > > water, > > > > hinged to > > > > > > move athwart ships, with the tiller preventer lines run to > a > > > > point > > > > > above the > > > > > > hinge. The paddle will swing from side to side as the > boat > > > > slews, > > > > > pulling > > > > > > on the preventers, rapidly correcting the tiller for slew > as > > > > conditions > > > > > > worsen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:11 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering > > (big > > > > iron > > > > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comments.... > > > > > > > > > > > > I sailed around Hawaii for about 4 months and found it the > > most > > > > > challenging > > > > > > place to sail I have ever been......nasty waves there with > > nasty > > > > winds. > > > > > > > > > > > > My Swain 36 (no +1 feet and with an outboard rudder) was > no > > > > problem at > > > > > > all...you can steer the boat with one finger using the trim > > > > > tab....normally > > > > > > I use the wind vane or a cheap tiller pilot to the trim > tab > > > > which uses > > > > > > almost no current since there is almost no force on it. I > > use > > > > whichever > > > > > > steers best to the conditions without worrying about the > > drain > > > > on my > > > > > > batteries. Outboard rudders with trim tabs are the way to > > go. If > > > > I > > > > > ever get > > > > > > another boat it will have the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > From: heretic_37ft > > > 40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:32:43 AM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Autopilots, Steering > (big > > iron > > > > > concept) > > > > > > > > > > > > In an area of large waves and seas (Molokai, HI) Decided > to > > > > install a > > > > > > hydralic autopilot to handle the massive waves and gusty > > winds. > > > > > > Furuno (520) was chosen. The ship is a Swain 36 + 1' with > > > > inboard > > > > > > rudder and Kodelt 7040 ram, 7005 helm pump. Please comment! > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > The fish are biting. > > > > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search > Marketing. > > > > > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13078|13053|2007-04-13 08:59:18|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|As far as painting goes, we have never had a problem with not using any paint. Just a layer of grease between the bearing and the tube. Once the bearing returns to normal temperature it is such a tight fit that no water gets in between the tube and the bearing. I have found that you get more rattle which results in paint chipping, water getting between the bearing and the tube, and rust problems if you only depend on the set screws. The bearings are designed with grooves in the rubber to allow water flow for cooling between the shaft and the bearing. As far as getting the bearing out, once you come to that stage, the rubber has worn away and allowing play in the shaft, so therefore the bearing is no good. Easy way to get the bearing out is to use a Saw Zaw with long blade poke it up through the center of the bearing, shaft out of course, and make two cuts through the bearing and then fold the bearing in on itself. Yes the bearing will be no good after that, but if you wanted to keep it you would not be replacing it in the first place. I'm sure that there are many ways of doing this, I have just found this to work even with boats 30+ years of service and never an issue. Hope this helps. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain With freezing it, wouldnt it be a real bugger to get out if one had to ? I allways thought you needed extra clearance for painting inside tube and a couple set screws to hold berring in place and a couple holes as far forward as possable to lube berring with water. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to > see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" shaft, > was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before > installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as > possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a > block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no issues. > > Hope this helps > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > - 1-1/4" shaft > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > From I see that my > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > $40.94 (brass)). > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13079|13053|2007-04-13 18:44:24|Tom|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|Hello Cameron That makes good sence to me doing it that way, are there any issues using a bronze berring in a steel tube? or should a guy go with a non metalic type. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > As far as painting goes, we have never had a problem with not using any > paint. Just a layer of grease between the bearing and the tube. Once the > bearing returns to normal temperature it is such a tight fit that no water > gets in between the tube and the bearing. I have found that you get more > rattle which results in paint chipping, water getting between the bearing > and the tube, and rust problems if you only depend on the set screws. The > bearings are designed with grooves in the rubber to allow water flow for > cooling between the shaft and the bearing. As far as getting the bearing > out, once you come to that stage, the rubber has worn away and allowing > play in the shaft, so therefore the bearing is no good. Easy way to get > the bearing out is to use a Saw Zaw with long blade poke it up through the > center of the bearing, shaft out of course, and make two cuts through the > bearing and then fold the bearing in on itself. Yes the bearing will be > no good after that, but if you wanted to keep it you would not be > replacing it in the first place. > > I'm sure that there are many ways of doing this, I have just found this to > work even with boats 30+ years of service and never an issue. > > Hope this helps. > Cameron > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > With freezing it, wouldnt it be a real bugger to get out if one had to ? > I > allways thought you needed extra clearance for painting inside tube and a > couple set screws to hold berring in place and a couple holes as far > forward > as possable to lube berring with water. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to > > see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" > shaft, > > was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before > > installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as > > possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a > > block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no > issues. > > > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jnikadie > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > > > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > > - 1-1/4" shaft > > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > > > From I see that my > > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > > $40.94 (brass)). > > > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade > bronze)). > > > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > > > Thanks, > > Julian. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13080|13053|2007-04-13 18:52:49|brentswain38|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|Cutting a 1/4 inch wide by 3/4 inch long slot in the sides of the stern tube with a 1/4 inch thick grinding disc in the angle grinder,before putting the bearing in ,lets you tap the bearing out with a hammer and centrepunch, without removing the shaft. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > As far as painting goes, we have never had a problem with not using any paint. Just a layer of grease between the bearing and the tube. Once the bearing returns to normal temperature it is such a tight fit that no water gets in between the tube and the bearing. I have found that you get more rattle which results in paint chipping, water getting between the bearing and the tube, and rust problems if you only depend on the set screws. The bearings are designed with grooves in the rubber to allow water flow for cooling between the shaft and the bearing. As far as getting the bearing out, once you come to that stage, the rubber has worn away and allowing play in the shaft, so therefore the bearing is no good. Easy way to get the bearing out is to use a Saw Zaw with long blade poke it up through the center of the bearing, shaft out of course, and make two cuts through the bearing and then fold the bearing in on itself. Yes the bearing will be no good after that, but if you wanted to keep it you would not be replacing it in the first place. > > I'm sure that there are many ways of doing this, I have just found this to work even with boats 30+ years of service and never an issue. > > Hope this helps. > Cameron > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > With freezing it, wouldnt it be a real bugger to get out if one had to ? I > allways thought you needed extra clearance for painting inside tube and a > couple set screws to hold berring in place and a couple holes as far forward > as possable to lube berring with water. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to > > see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" shaft, > > was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before > > installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as > > possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a > > block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no issues. > > > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jnikadie > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > > > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > > - 1-1/4" shaft > > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > > > From I see that my > > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > > $40.94 (brass)). > > > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade bronze)). > > > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > > > Thanks, > > Julian. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13081|13081|2007-04-15 01:07:24|Ralf Deutsch|sail area,ballast and steel plate for BS31|Hello, I have received and read Brent`s book during the last 2 days. Very interesting and tempting. So much better than any other book on steel boat building that I have read before. Also I have to say I found the information given on the actual designs a bit short. My choice would be the 31 footer but I have a couple of questions. If anybody could help me out here please. 1. Sail area How much sail area do people use on this design? How much sail will she be able to carry? The sail plan as given in the drawing in the book shows no more than about 400sqft of working sail area (main plus fore triangle) which is rather small for 12.000lbs of displacement. I am asking this because I will only build a boat that can function fully as a sailboat (maybe with a small engine for convenience) and not as a motor sailor (depending on its engine burning fuel at 1,50 US$ per liter for light air performance). 2. Ballast The book mentions keel weight 3500lbs. There is a material list under 'files' on this group`s website which gives ballast as 3500lbs of lead. My understanding is that in steel boats the keels count as ballast, too. Not just the lead. If you put 3500lbs of lead into the keel(s) you get a total ballast of somewhere well over 4000lbs. A total ballast of only 3500lbs for a 12.000lbs boat means a ratio of 29% which is not much. 4500lbs would give a ratio of 37% which sounds much better to me. What are the facts here? Please help me out. 3. I live in Korea and would build the boat here. All steel plate comes in metric sizes. I can get plate of 4mm or 5mm thickness. The specified 3/16 of an inch plate would translate into 4,7mm. Which one would be the best choice? I would prefer not to add more weight to the boat if 4mm plate is structurally satisfying. Any advice on the matters would be very much appreciated. Ralf Jeju Island, Korea| 13082|13053|2007-04-15 07:48:06|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain|Tom, As long as the boat has a proper bonding system and adequate zincs I have never seen a problem resulting from Bronze bearing. Good Luck Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain Hello Cameron That makes good sence to me doing it that way, are there any issues using a bronze berring in a steel tube? or should a guy go with a non metalic type. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > As far as painting goes, we have never had a problem with not using any > paint. Just a layer of grease between the bearing and the tube. Once the > bearing returns to normal temperature it is such a tight fit that no water > gets in between the tube and the bearing. I have found that you get more > rattle which results in paint chipping, water getting between the bearing > and the tube, and rust problems if you only depend on the set screws. The > bearings are designed with grooves in the rubber to allow water flow for > cooling between the shaft and the bearing. As far as getting the bearing > out, once you come to that stage, the rubber has worn away and allowing > play in the shaft, so therefore the bearing is no good. Easy way to get > the bearing out is to use a Saw Zaw with long blade poke it up through the > center of the bearing, shaft out of course, and make two cuts through the > bearing and then fold the bearing in on itself. Yes the bearing will be > no good after that, but if you wanted to keep it you would not be > replacing it in the first place. > > I'm sure that there are many ways of doing this, I have just found this to > work even with boats 30+ years of service and never an issue. > > Hope this helps. > Cameron > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > With freezing it, wouldnt it be a real bugger to get out if one had to ? > I > allways thought you needed extra clearance for painting inside tube and a > couple set screws to hold berring in place and a couple holes as far > forward > as possable to lube berring with water. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > As far as machining 7.5 thou out of your stern tube. Be very careful to > > see if this is necessary. What we use to do on larger boats, 4.25" > shaft, > > was to keep the cutlass bearing in dry ice for about 12 hrs before > > installing. This will shrink the cutlass bearing, then as quickly as > > possible push the bearing in. Some times we needed the convincing of a > > block of wood and 5lb dumpy hammer, but after it was in we had no > issues. > > > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jnikadie > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] drive train ... prop / shaft for a 36' Swain > > > > > > OK, here's what I've got so far (and, before we get too far into this, > > yes, I know it doesn't all match up!): > > > > - Nissan SD22 2.2l diesel > > - 1-1/4" shaft > > - 1-1/2" (nominal) stern tube > > - 18"x13" prop with a 1-3/8th tapered bore > > > > Obviously I've got some re-jigging to do. > > > > Q1. What shaft/prop combinations are people running? > > > > From I see that my > > stern tube actually has a 1.61" inner diameter (1.9"-2x0.145") - which > > matches my measurement of just under 41mm. That's just shy of 1-5/8" > > (1.625") ... so, machining 7.5 thou out of the stern tube should allow > > a 1-5/8th cutlass bearing to fit. > > > > Looking at standard cutlass bearings suggests that a 1-1/8" shaft > > might make sense (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com CINDY 1-1/8 1-5/8 > > 4-1/2 1/8 0.3 $34.97 (plastic) or BEAM 1-1/8 1-1/2 4-1/2 1/16 0.6 > > $40.94 (brass)). > > > > This seems to work OK with an 18" prop > > (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com MP33B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $409.00 > > (3 blade bronze) or SL22B18B 18 1-1/8 to 1-3/8 $359.00 (2 blade > bronze)). > > > > Q2. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > > > - replace shaft and prop so that I can use a standard bearing? > > > > - replace shaft with a 1-3/8" one so that I can use the prop I have > > (and what do I do for a bearing (1/8" thick)?)? > > > > - replace prop with one with a 1-1/4" bore (and, again, what do I do > > for a bearing (3/16" thick)?)? > > > > Q3. How do I work out what pitch to use? > > > > Thanks, > > Julian. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13083|13083|2007-04-15 18:48:50|mark hamill|BS 36 in field on Headquarters Rd. Coutenay|Hi: Just moved to town. Does anyone know if the BS 36 in the field is for sale??| 13084|13083|2007-04-17 19:19:28|brentswain38|Re: BS 36 in field on Headquarters Rd. Coutenay|Yes , that's Alex's boat, listed here. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Hi: Just moved to town. Does anyone know if the BS 36 in the field is > for sale?? > | 13085|13081|2007-04-17 19:31:06|brentswain38|Re: sail area,ballast and steel plate for BS31|I have a 31ft twin keeler which i have owned for 23 yearsa and sailed to Mexico and back to BC as well as two trips to Tonga and back and 9 trips to the Charlottes and back. I sailed circles around a deep fin keeled MORC racer and a fibreglass hull ,on all points of sail in 12 knots of wind which other local boats couldn't catch.I left Tonga at the same time as a deep fin keeled aluminium Bob perry designed aluminium sloop . I took 57 days to ge back to BC they took 99days.I did two trips from Hawaii to BC . 23 days both times ,and heading south last time I was south of Hawaii in 14 days, altho I did have strong winds . My best daily run was 175 miles in 24 hours. I would consider going up to a 43 foot mast if I were rerigging he. For the 31 I'd go 3500 lead ballast in addition to the steel weight. Metric is great for the 31, 4mm for the hull, 3mm for the decks and cabin and 6mm for the keels. 4 mm is between 3/16th and 1/8th perfect for the 31 .I wish we could get it here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have received and read Brent`s book during the last 2 days. Very > interesting and tempting. So much better than any other book on steel > boat building that I have read before. Also I have to say I found the > information given on the actual designs a bit short. My choice would > be the 31 footer but I have a couple of questions. If anybody could > help me out here please. > > 1. Sail area > How much sail area do people use on this design? > How much sail will she be able to carry? > The sail plan as given in the drawing in the book shows no more than > about 400sqft of working sail area (main plus fore triangle) which is > rather small for 12.000lbs of displacement. > I am asking this because I will only build a boat that can function > fully as a sailboat (maybe with a small engine for convenience) and > not as a motor sailor (depending on its engine burning fuel at 1,50 > US$ per liter for light air performance). > > 2. Ballast > The book mentions keel weight 3500lbs. There is a material list > under 'files' on this group`s website which gives ballast as 3500lbs > of lead. > My understanding is that in steel boats the keels count as ballast, > too. Not just the lead. If you put 3500lbs of lead into the keel(s) > you get a total ballast of somewhere well over 4000lbs. > A total ballast of only 3500lbs for a 12.000lbs boat means a ratio of > 29% which is not much. 4500lbs would give a ratio of 37% which sounds > much better to me. > What are the facts here? Please help me out. > > 3. I live in Korea and would build the boat here. All steel plate > comes in metric sizes. I can get plate of 4mm or 5mm thickness. The > specified 3/16 of an inch plate would translate into 4,7mm. Which one > would be the best choice? I would prefer not to add more weight to > the boat if 4mm plate is structurally satisfying. > > Any advice on the matters would be very much appreciated. > Ralf > Jeju Island, Korea > | 13086|13081|2007-04-18 03:24:22|Ralf Deutsch|Re: sail area,ballast and steel plate for BS31|Thanks Brent. I will order plans soon. Ralf| 13087|13087|2007-04-19 15:33:40|Tom|stainless T tracks|Hello All I have been figuring out my deck hardware and I want to run T track about a foot in from the shear and about 8 to 9 feet long, little better sheating angle and fine tune easily, anyway I was digging up some old sailing hardware and found a set of short stainless tracks made out of strips through bolted got me thinking using a 1"x1/8" strip bolted through a 1/4"x 1/2" strip making a T track the same size as the aluminum 1" T track that we can buy. would probably be cheaper and stronger and not have to worry about aluminum bolted to steel decks. Anyone tryed this or have any input on the idea? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13088|13088|2007-04-20 05:48:06|sae140|UK lead prices|Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... Colin| 13089|13088|2007-04-20 08:13:25|Tom|Re: UK lead prices|Dang I am scared to ask now here in US, Last summer it was 25 cents apound at a local scrap yard Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 13090|13088|2007-04-20 09:09:56|Paul|Re: UK lead prices|My method for acquiring lead it time consuming but very cheap (free). I went around to all the local tire stores and found a few that would allow me to collect up all their used wheel weights. Start early in the project as it will take a while to get enough. I brought 5 gallon paint pails to each of the stores and make the rounds once a week and collect what they have. With 2 stores I have collected about 1000 lbs in the last 8 or 9 months. Don't bother with tire stores that sell batteries though, they usually have their lead collected by the same guy who picks up old batteries. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm > shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer > to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. > > Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number > to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. > > Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... > > Colin > | 13091|13088|2007-04-20 09:42:59|J Fisher|Re: UK lead prices|Tom, From my local gun range it is $.15/lb. I have not bought any to see how it melts down yet, but will be getting a couple of pails pretty soon. It will have a lot of copper in it, so I hope it will float on the top and be easily removed to sell as scrap copper. John -------Original Message------- From: Tom Date: 4/20/2007 5:13:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Dang I am scared to ask now here in US, Last summer it was 25 cents apound at a local scrap yard Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13092|13088|2007-04-20 10:53:40|Carl Anderson|Re: UK lead prices|Let me tell you about the lead for my boat. I was lucky in finding 5000 pounds, used, on Van Isl. I paid $3000 CDN for the lot. I had to drive a total of 400 miles by the time I had it at the boat building site. It took two days of driving, loading, unloading. It was in "bricks" weighing 40, 60, & 75 pounds. When I picked it up at a scrap yard where it had been stored, the proprietor told me that they have NEVER BEFORE seen so much at once. They usually sell it in 200 pound lots to the fishing industry. It is safely inside my keels now so I'm "over the hump" in building the hull. I feel very lucky in what I got. New vs. used is a matter of how important (valuable) your time is. For some it is much better to get it new & pay the price and your done with it! I figure that my time spent "hauling" the stuff was worth $350 CDN as that is what my lowest paying job would pay for the two days. As for fuel costs, 400 miles @ 14 MPG X $1.10 CDN/liter for gasoline and you figure it out. If I had to rent a truck to do the hauling you should add that to the costs. You can build a boat for damn near nothing if you can wait for the "perfect" deals (about 10 years of your time). ME: I'm trying to get on the water! Later, Carl sae140 wrote: > Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm > shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer > to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. > > Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number > to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. > > Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... > > Colin > > | 13093|13088|2007-04-20 13:20:29|Tom|Re: UK lead prices|Had me wondering so I called local scrap yard they are selling for 40 cents a pound today but all they have right now is wheel weights. John I read somewhere online about using lead from gun range and the guy said buy the time he melted it down and seperated all the junk out he had more in it than just buying clean stuff to start with, but they are paying $2 a pound for scrap copper maybee able to get enough out to compensate for the differance. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Fisher" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Tom, From my local gun range it is $.15/lb. I have not bought any to see how it melts down yet, but will be getting a couple of pails pretty soon. It will have a lot of copper in it, so I hope it will float on the top and be easily removed to sell as scrap copper. John -------Original Message------- From: Tom Date: 4/20/2007 5:13:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Dang I am scared to ask now here in US, Last summer it was 25 cents apound at a local scrap yard Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] UK lead prices Having seen an advertisement for lead yacht ballast in the form of 2mm shot from: leadballast.co.uk , and thinking this might be one answer to the perennial melt and pour problem, I emailed for prices. Got a quote this morning - £1762 per metric ton. Double that number to get US dollars. Lead ingots are only marginally cheaper. Think I'll go and lie down for a while ..... Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 13094|13088|2007-04-20 14:23:27|khooper_fboats|Re: UK lead prices|Watch the govt auction sites, about two weeks ago I watched an 8000 lb lot go for 20c a pound in Utah (Hill AFB) and IIRC a 13000 lb lot in Indiana for 26c. This was clean stuff in big ~100 lb pigs. You have to fetch it, they will not ship it, it is usually at some military base or armory. Maybe they have military surplus sites in the UK as well, I dunno. Also sometimes there is crane ballast but those things are serious huge and you would have to melt the lead off them with a torch or something...| 13095|13088|2007-04-20 17:06:44|Carl Anderson|metalizing a boat in June|Is there anyone that would be considering metalizing a boat on Vancouver Island or in Washington state during June? I have priced renting the equipment and it is only rented out by the month. Doing one boat is about a 1 to 2 day job (maybe 3 if you go slow) and I would like to share costs if possible. I am planning on spraying zinc/aluminum alloy and aluminum anti-skid coatings on mine. Only other item needed is a large air compressor. Anyone interested? Carl| 13096|13088|2007-04-20 19:24:53|Paul Liebenberg|Re: metalizing a boat in June|Carl, I may (outside chance), be interested. What are the costs? Paul Liebenberg. Comox Valley 250-336-2271 ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson Date: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:06 pm Subject: [origamiboats] metalizing a boat in June > Is there anyone that would be considering metalizing a boat on > Vancouver > Island or in Washington state during June? > > I have priced renting the equipment and it is only rented out by > the month. > > Doing one boat is about a 1 to 2 day job (maybe 3 if you go slow) > and I > would like to share costs if possible. > > I am planning on spraying zinc/aluminum alloy and aluminum anti- > skid > coatings on mine. > > Only other item needed is a large air compressor. > > Anyone interested? > > Carl > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 13097|13088|2007-04-20 22:02:02|Tom|Re: metalizing a boat in June|Hello Carl Youre boats looking good, question Youre using preprimed steel do you have to sandblast it off before metalizing? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Anderson" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] metalizing a boat in June > Is there anyone that would be considering metalizing a boat on Vancouver > Island or in Washington state during June? > > I have priced renting the equipment and it is only rented out by the > month. > > Doing one boat is about a 1 to 2 day job (maybe 3 if you go slow) and I > would like to share costs if possible. > > I am planning on spraying zinc/aluminum alloy and aluminum anti-skid > coatings on mine. > > Only other item needed is a large air compressor. > > Anyone interested? > > Carl > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13098|13087|2007-04-20 22:09:35|brentswain38|Re: stainless T tracks|Just use your bulwark caps , like the book says. With a twin keeler I found that easing a few degrees off when going to windward makes a huge increase in speed. Close sheeting angles can be self delusion. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I have been figuring out my deck hardware and I want to run T track about a foot in from the shear and about 8 to 9 feet long, little better sheating angle and fine tune easily, anyway I was digging up some old sailing hardware and found a set of short stainless tracks made out of strips through bolted got me thinking using a 1"x1/8" strip bolted through a 1/4"x 1/2" strip making a T track the same size as the aluminum 1" T track that we can buy. would probably be cheaper and stronger and not have to worry about aluminum bolted to steel decks. Anyone tryed this or have any input on the idea? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13099|13088|2007-04-20 22:17:36|Carl Anderson|Re: metalizing a boat in June|Tom, Yes the metalizing requires a blasted white metal surface for adhesion. Carl Tom wrote: > Hello Carl > Youre boats looking good, question Youre using preprimed steel do you > have > to sandblast it off before metalizing? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Anderson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:06 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] metalizing a boat in June > > > Is there anyone that would be considering metalizing a boat on Vancouver > > Island or in Washington state during June? > > > > I have priced renting the equipment and it is only rented out by the > > month. > > > > Doing one boat is about a 1 to 2 day job (maybe 3 if you go slow) and I > > would like to share costs if possible. > > > > I am planning on spraying zinc/aluminum alloy and aluminum anti-skid > > coatings on mine. > > > > Only other item needed is a large air compressor. > > > > Anyone interested? > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 13100|13087|2007-04-21 09:17:44|Tom|Re: stainless T tracks|Well yes and no on that one using bulwark cap would be the simplest and for heavy weather a better sheeting angle, I am setting this one up as a sloop for coastal cruising and mabee an ocasional regatta ( the fun ones ) Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 7:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stainless T tracks > Just use your bulwark caps , like the book says. With a twin keeler I > found that easing a few degrees off when going to windward makes a > huge increase in speed. Close sheeting angles can be self delusion. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> I have been figuring out my deck hardware and I want to run T > track about a foot in from the shear and about 8 to 9 feet long, > little better sheating angle and fine tune easily, anyway I was > digging up some old sailing hardware and found a set of short > stainless tracks made out of strips through bolted got me thinking > using a 1"x1/8" strip bolted through a 1/4"x 1/2" strip making a T > track the same size as the aluminum 1" T track that we can buy. would > probably be cheaper and stronger and not have to worry about aluminum > bolted to steel decks. Anyone tryed this or have any input on the idea? >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13101|13101|2007-04-21 11:33:47|zeeeks_2005|What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|Hi, I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? Thanks| 13102|13101|2007-04-21 18:28:30|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|The book cover is the home page pic. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > Hi, > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > Thanks > | 13103|13087|2007-04-21 21:05:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: stainless T tracks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I have been figuring out my deck hardware and I want to run T track about a foot in from the shear and about 8 to 9 feet long, little better sheating angle and fine tune easily, anyway I was digging up some old sailing hardware and found a set of short stainless tracks made out of strips through bolted got me thinking using a 1"x1/8" strip bolted through a 1/4"x 1/2" strip making a T track the same size as the aluminum 1" T track that we can buy. would probably be cheaper and stronger and not have to worry about aluminum bolted to steel decks. Anyone tryed this or have any input on the idea? Why bolt it? If you were going to do it, weld it. PDW| 13104|13104|2007-04-21 22:20:29|jfpacuas|Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|Hi all, I'm building some single and double blocks as described in Brent's book. Any ideas on what to use to cut the grooves in the pulley wheel? I have several lathe knives, but they aren't working very well on the polypropylene. Other than that, they go together in minutes, cost almost nothing, and seem to work well. Paul| 13105|13104|2007-04-21 22:39:42|Tom|Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|Hello Paul I have not tryed it myself yet but I was talking to a guy a while back that makes bushings and rollers out of UHMW from what he told me you have to turn it fast with light cuts with sharp cutting tools, he allso warned that its hard to grip it in the lathe chuck so be carefull. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks > Hi all, > > I'm building some single and double blocks as described in Brent's > book. Any ideas on what to use to cut the grooves in the pulley wheel? > I have several lathe knives, but they aren't working very well on the > polypropylene. > > Other than that, they go together in minutes, cost almost nothing, and > seem to work well. > > Paul > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13106|13101|2007-04-22 00:10:27|Aaron Williams|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|Buy the book direct from Brent "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The book cover is the home page pic. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > Hi, > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > Thanks > --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13107|13104|2007-04-22 16:59:00|brentswain38|Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|You can put a 3/8th bolt thru them and put it in a drillchuck , then use the drill to spin it while cutting the groove with a new rasp preferably round, then coarse sandpaper , then fine.Heating it to the melting point with a torch on the surface flame polishes the surface. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm building some single and double blocks as described in Brent's > book. Any ideas on what to use to cut the grooves in the pulley wheel? > I have several lathe knives, but they aren't working very well on the > polypropylene. > > Other than that, they go together in minutes, cost almost nothing, and > seem to work well. > > Paul > | 13108|13101|2007-04-22 17:01:32|brentswain38|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|"Origami Metal Boatbuilding , a Heretiic's Guide " Is the name of my book . It is only available by mail order from me, or certain bookstores, The Nautical Mind in Toronto, Compass Rose Books in Sidney and Heron Books in Comox. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Buy the book direct from Brent > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The book cover is the home page pic. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13109|13101|2007-04-22 17:18:12|zeeeks_2005|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|Ok, What is your prefered method of payment? Thanks --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > "Origami Metal Boatbuilding , a Heretiic's Guide " Is the name of my > book . It is only available by mail order from me, or certain > bookstores, The Nautical Mind in Toronto, Compass Rose Books in Sidney > and Heron Books in Comox. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Buy the book direct from Brent > > > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The book cover is > the home page pic. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > > > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13110|13104|2007-04-22 22:21:47|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|Thanks Brent - I'll give that a rip this week. Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:57 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks > You can put a 3/8th bolt thru them and put it in a drillchuck , then > use the drill to spin it while cutting the groove with a new rasp > preferably round, then coarse sandpaper , then fine.Heating it to the > melting point with a torch on the surface flame polishes the surface. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" > wrote:> > > Hi all, > > > > I'm building some single and double blocks as described in > Brent's > > book. Any ideas on what to use to cut the grooves in the pulley > wheel? > > I have several lathe knives, but they aren't working very well > on the > > polypropylene. > > > > Other than that, they go together in minutes, cost almost > nothing, and > > seem to work well. > > > > Paul > > > > > | 13111|13104|2007-04-23 01:23:28|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|If you have a router and router table you could mount it to a wood fence and turn it by hand useing a half round router bit. If set up right you could whip out a bunch fast. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Thanks Brent - I'll give that a rip this week. > > Cheers > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:57 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks > > > You can put a 3/8th bolt thru them and put it in a drillchuck , then > > use the drill to spin it while cutting the groove with a new rasp > > preferably round, then coarse sandpaper , then fine.Heating it to the > > melting point with a torch on the surface flame polishes the surface. > > Brent | 13112|13112|2007-04-24 03:37:56|podewet|best small boat|Which is the best for a first project, a BS31 or Barebones (as on www.origamimagic.com). Thanks Oloff| 13113|13113|2007-04-24 03:40:17|podewet|best small design|Hallo Im new to this forum - but find it very interesting. What would be the best smallish boat to build: a Swain 31 or a barebones as featured on the origamimagic website. oloff| 13114|13112|2007-04-24 10:59:48|Aaron Williams|Re: best small boat|Oloff Good question.I bet most here have asked it of themselves, I have. Depends on welding experince. There are lots of examples of the Brent Swain design boats built by all kinds of people. I have not found any of the Barebones as a finished product or work in progress. And after reading through the first two years of post here I have come to believe the BS boats would be the best design to build. This is the design support group. The details that may not be in the prints can be found here so the extra $$ spent can be used for matierials. Go look at www.virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower/ That should say it all What a great looking yacht. Aaron podewet wrote: Which is the best for a first project, a BS31 or Barebones (as on www.origamimagic.com). Thanks Oloff --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13115|13115|2007-04-24 12:03:12|Douglas Cassa|Realy small bot|Dear friends, There is an small boat, like 10' our 15', in origami methods? thanks douglascass@ Vitória-Espírito Santo-Brasil __________________________________________________ Fale com seus amigos de graça com o novo Yahoo! Messenger http://br.messenger.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13116|13101|2007-04-24 15:51:31|brentswain38|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|I prefer an international money order or cash. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > Ok, > > What is your prefered method of payment? > > Thanks > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > "Origami Metal Boatbuilding , a Heretiic's Guide " Is the name of my > > book . It is only available by mail order from me, or certain > > bookstores, The Nautical Mind in Toronto, Compass Rose Books in Sidney > > and Heron Books in Comox. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Buy the book direct from Brent > > > > > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The book cover is > > the home page pic. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > > > > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13117|13101|2007-04-24 15:52:50|brentswain38|Re: What is the name of Brent Swains Book?|Make that international" postal" money order if possible. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > Ok, > > What is your prefered method of payment? > > Thanks > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > "Origami Metal Boatbuilding , a Heretiic's Guide " Is the name of my > > book . It is only available by mail order from me, or certain > > bookstores, The Nautical Mind in Toronto, Compass Rose Books in Sidney > > and Heron Books in Comox. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Buy the book direct from Brent > > > > > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: The book cover is > > the home page pic. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "zeeeks_2005" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I am interested in building a steel sailboat, and am trying to track > > > > down the name of his book! Is it available on amazon.com? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > > > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13118|13113|2007-04-24 20:45:04|jp4sail|Re: best small design|Hi Oloff I contacted origamimagic 2 or 3 years ago and tried to buy plans for their 30 footer barebones. I kind of liked it but the replies I got from them were pretty vague...They said that they didn't work with stock plans just semi custom, that their price was XXX and this and that..Than I guess they got tired of answering my questions and simply started ingnoring my mails. So, my suggestion is stick with Brent's plans, they're proven and I believe hassle free. Just my 2 cents fair winds JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "podewet" wrote: > > Hallo > Im new to this forum - but find it very interesting. What would be the > best smallish boat to build: a Swain 31 or a barebones as featured on > the origamimagic website. > oloff > | 13119|13104|2007-04-25 00:09:40|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks|The round rasp works great, and the result is a pretty darn smooth surface. I'll try sandpaper to smooth it even more. Thanks Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:57 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting groove in polypropylene for blocks > You can put a 3/8th bolt thru them and put it in a drillchuck , then > use the drill to spin it while cutting the groove with a new rasp > preferably round, then coarse sandpaper , then fine.Heating it to the > melting point with a torch on the surface flame polishes the surface. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" > wrote:> > > Hi all, > > > > I'm building some single and double blocks as described in > Brent's > > book. Any ideas on what to use to cut the grooves in the pulley > wheel? > > I have several lathe knives, but they aren't working very well > on the > > polypropylene. > > > > Other than that, they go together in minutes, cost almost > nothing, and > > seem to work well. > > > > Paul > > > > > | 13120|13120|2007-04-25 00:33:47|zeeeks_2005|Sources for steel?|I'm wondering where to buy steel plate in the quantity required for a 30 something foot boat. I happen to be down the road from a pretty decent scrap metal dealer... but they do not have anything close to 30 feet in length. Can I weld up a bunch of smaller plates to get the length, before bending? Or would that cause the origami bending action to not work correctly? Thanks for the help on this, gotta get the price in mind before committing! (Or being commited... grin!) Zach| 13121|13115|2007-04-25 03:59:49|Helmut Schlager|Re: Realy small bot|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cassa wrote: > > Dear friends, > There is an small boat, like 10' our 15', in origami methods? > thanks > douglascass@ > Vitória-Espírito Santo-Brasil > > > > __________________________________________________ > Fale com seus amigos de graça com o novo Yahoo! Messenger > http://br.messenger.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Hi all, also looking for a smaller origami design, 15 -20'long, (thinking of building in thin stainless steel?, so rust should bee no problem, also painting only for cool look, easy and cheap paint?) helmut schlager, austria| 13122|13122|2007-04-25 10:11:38|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Sand Blasting in Central America?|This is a general questions to see if anyone knows of any yards that would be able to do sand blasting work in Central America, along the Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico, Belize, Honduras, Guatemala???? I am looking at going down there to get the job done as it is supposedly cheaper. Would like to sandblast the top sides, below the water was done last year and didn't have enough money to do above the water line. Also would like to finish off the interior. I here rumors that you can find good wood workers for about $25 USD a day. Draw back from what I hear is that you have to bring all of the material with you. So if we can find some where to do the job we will load the boat up like a container and off we go!!!!! As we are 56' we would need some where with a 50ton lift min. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13123|13104|2007-04-25 13:26:26|ALEX CHRISTIE|36 foot bare hull for sale|Alex's 36 foot hull is still available, can be seen here at: http://vancouver.craigslist.org/boa/317883834.html| 13124|13104|2007-04-25 13:58:01|Dale J. Robertson|Re: 36 foot bare hull for sale|ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > Alex's 36 foot hull is still available, can be seen here at: > > http://vancouver.craigslist.org/boa/317883834.html > > > Alex, There is nothing to 'see' at the URL provided. just a (very) brief textual description, No pics. Dale| 13125|13125|2007-04-25 21:38:35|aqwed16|Go dating tonight! Nudist singles dating center!!| World's best and largest dating site for nudists, naturists and best place to enjoy a natural, nude, naked, clothing free life style: http://www.aboutme.com/users/nudistlove/NudistGirls.htm (Nudist personals network for dating, romance, marriage, and fun!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13126|13122|2007-04-26 00:11:13|Paul Wilson|Re: Sand Blasting in Central America?|Cameron, I don't know anything about Central America but thought I should warn you that a lot of places will say they do sandblasting but it turns out they don't use the right sand. I had my boat sandblasted years ago in Fiji and the only sand available was beach sand which is too round and has a high salt content. I knew what I was paying for, it was a cheap job and definitely a quick fix....not for the long term. Make sure you find out what sand media they are using before you compare prices. You don't want to compromise when doing the interior. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:09:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sand Blasting in Central America? This is a general questions to see if anyone knows of any yards that would be able to do sand blasting work in Central America, along the Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico, Belize, Honduras, Guatemala??? ? I am looking at going down there to get the job done as it is supposedly cheaper. Would like to sandblast the top sides, below the water was done last year and didn't have enough money to do above the water line. Also would like to finish off the interior. I here rumors that you can find good wood workers for about $25 USD a day. Draw back from what I hear is that you have to bring all of the material with you. So if we can find some where to do the job we will load the boat up like a container and off we go!!!!! As we are 56' we would need some where with a 50ton lift min. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13127|13122|2007-04-26 10:33:36|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Sand Blasting in Central America?|Thanks Paul, I have heard that before and was planning on making sure that Black Beauty was available. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sand Blasting in Central America? Cameron, I don't know anything about Central America but thought I should warn you that a lot of places will say they do sandblasting but it turns out they don't use the right sand. I had my boat sandblasted years ago in Fiji and the only sand available was beach sand which is too round and has a high salt content. I knew what I was paying for, it was a cheap job and definitely a quick fix....not for the long term. Make sure you find out what sand media they are using before you compare prices. You don't want to compromise when doing the interior. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:09:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sand Blasting in Central America? This is a general questions to see if anyone knows of any yards that would be able to do sand blasting work in Central America, along the Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico, Belize, Honduras, Guatemala??? ? I am looking at going down there to get the job done as it is supposedly cheaper. Would like to sandblast the top sides, below the water was done last year and didn't have enough money to do above the water line. Also would like to finish off the interior. I here rumors that you can find good wood workers for about $25 USD a day. Draw back from what I hear is that you have to bring all of the material with you. So if we can find some where to do the job we will load the boat up like a container and off we go!!!!! As we are 56' we would need some where with a 50ton lift min. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13128|13122|2007-04-26 15:13:21|mark hamill|Re: Sand Blasting in Central America?|Cameron: There is an article in Currents put out by the Bluewater Cruising Association about a couple from Vancouver moving to El Salvador and setting up a boat yard with travel lift. I don't know about sandblasting Contact: s/v Tarezed, Colette and Murray Barrett WDA3853@..., PH: 503-724-8073 or 503-724-8221. "Boat moorage on new mooring provided by Murry and Collete on Tarazad is $5.00 per day with the boat checked weekly if you want to leave it while travelling inland." "For more information on Bahia Del Sol and cruising Estero de Jaltepeque write to: Hotel Bahia Del Sol, 3 Calle Pomiente, Casa #3952-B, Colonia Escalon, San Salvador, El Salvador, C.A. Tel: 503- 338-0001 or 503-338-0017. Fax: 503-264-4949. www.hotelbahiadelsol.com.sv E-MAIL: mz332@..." Doing a search of noonsite.com for various countries may also yield some results. Mark Hamill| 13129|13122|2007-04-26 15:57:13|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Sand Blasting in Central America?|Thanks for the info Mark. Will send a email to them. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: mark hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 3:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sand Blasting in Central America? Cameron: There is an article in Currents put out by the Bluewater Cruising Association about a couple from Vancouver moving to El Salvador and setting up a boat yard with travel lift. I don't know about sandblasting Contact: s/v Tarezed, Colette and Murray Barrett WDA3853@..., PH: 503-724-8073 or 503-724-8221. "Boat moorage on new mooring provided by Murry and Collete on Tarazad is $5.00 per day with the boat checked weekly if you want to leave it while travelling inland." "For more information on Bahia Del Sol and cruising Estero de Jaltepeque write to: Hotel Bahia Del Sol, 3 Calle Pomiente, Casa #3952-B, Colonia Escalon, San Salvador, El Salvador, C.A. Tel: 503- 338-0001 or 503-338-0017. Fax: 503-264-4949. www.hotelbahiadelsol.com.sv E-MAIL: mz332@..." Doing a search of noonsite.com for various countries may also yield some results. Mark Hamill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13130|11985|2007-04-26 17:21:11|jnikadie|Flame spray|We've been trying to get my flame spray gun working. Looks like it's in working order (we can run the wire through it and the gases flow when the valve is on), but we're having trouble getting the fuel/oxygen/air mix right. Can anyone point us in the right direction? We've been starting by igniting the fuel (propane in our case), adding oxygen, adjusting until we have what looks like a good mix, and then adding air ... at which point the flame is blown out.| 13131|11985|2007-04-26 17:40:09|mark hamill|Re: Flame spray|Cut back on yer beans consumption. ----- Original Message ----- From: jnikadie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 2:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Flame spray We've been trying to get my flame spray gun working. Looks like it's in working order (we can run the wire through it and the gases flow when the valve is on), but we're having trouble getting the fuel/oxygen/air mix right. Can anyone point us in the right direction? We've been starting by igniting the fuel (propane in our case), adding oxygen, adjusting until we have what looks like a good mix, and then adding air ... at which point the flame is blown out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13132|13132|2007-04-26 20:25:14|steve|sb8 yanmar|Hello to all, This is a little off subject but are there any opinions on the old sb 8 yanmar diesel. Thanks, Steve| 13133|11985|2007-04-26 20:25:25|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Hi Guys, Just looking back over old posts & having just bought a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on the truck but oxidation under the coating under the water line...not too cool. So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust Mort is a really really bad joke!) They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, completely exposed to the elements. so why not wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is converted to ..... well I don't know what it's converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made to be coated over. Cheers, SR Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 13134|13132|2007-04-26 20:50:07|Tom|Re: sb8 yanmar|You talking about the one on ebay? ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 5:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] sb8 yanmar > Hello to all, > > This is a little off subject but are there any opinions on the old sb > 8 yanmar diesel. > > Thanks, > Steve > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13135|11985|2007-04-27 09:04:21|khooper_fboats|Re: Flame spray|> We've been starting by igniting the fuel (propane in our case), adding > oxygen, adjusting until we have what looks like a good mix, and then > adding air ... at which point the flame is blown out. Just speculating but I don't think you can substitute a different fuel in an application like that just because you feel like it. =^) It's jetted for acetylene, isn't it? Seems like you should set it up using the fuel it's designed for and then start changing variables after it's running right, if you're going to change them. Ken| 13136|11985|2007-04-27 11:46:20|jnikadie|Re: Flame spray|Hmmm, good point ... while flame spray can be done with either acetylene or oxygen, like a cutting torch it probably requires a different jet. We got a little further along ... good flame with some air, melted the aluminum wire held in the flame (very fast). Anyone got a propane jet for a Metco 5E ??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > > We've been starting by igniting the fuel (propane in our case), adding > > oxygen, adjusting until we have what looks like a good mix, and then > > adding air ... at which point the flame is blown out. > > Just speculating but I don't think you can substitute a different fuel > in an application like that just because you feel like it. =^) It's > jetted for acetylene, isn't it? Seems like you should set it up using > the fuel it's designed for and then start changing variables after > it's running right, if you're going to change them. > > Ken > | 13137|11985|2007-04-27 16:39:38|brentswain38|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|A friend wet blasted his boat in California in the late 80's in hot dry weather.They went behind the blaster ,wiping excess water off with rags. It rust bloomed , but dried quickly. They put epoxy tar over the slight rust bloom and it stuck like shit to a blanket for the next couple of decades. Epoxy Tar , it seems , will tolerate the slight rust bloom , if it dries very quickly and you get at it as soon as it does. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Just looking back over old posts & having just bought > a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to > paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. > > Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right > back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a > major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on > the truck but oxidation under the coating under the > water line...not too cool. > > So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and > exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the > ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust > Mort is a really really bad joke!) > > They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, > completely exposed to the elements. so why not > wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it > dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let > that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your > epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? > > This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is > converted to ..... well I don't know what it's > converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made > to be coated over. > > Cheers, > SR > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 13138|13132|2007-04-27 16:43:12|brentswain38|Re: sb8 yanmar|Very relibale ,tough engines with bulletproof trannys. Being horizontally mounted, they tend to hammer themselves out of alignment horizontally. Make sure the mounts can take the hammering in that direction. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "steve" wrote: > > Hello to all, > > This is a little off subject but are there any opinions on the old sb > 8 yanmar diesel. > > Thanks, > Steve > | 13139|11985|2007-04-27 16:47:11|brentswain38|Re: Flame spray|Sounds like the fuel and oxy are too high which results in the flame being off the tip , which lets the air blow it the rest of the way . Propane tips are different . They are recessed in to stop them from blowing out, which is not a problem with acetylene. Propane will constantly blow out if used on an acetylene tip. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > We've been trying to get my flame spray gun working. > > Looks like it's in working order (we can run the wire through it and > the gases flow when the valve is on), but we're having trouble getting > the fuel/oxygen/air mix right. > > Can anyone point us in the right direction? > > We've been starting by igniting the fuel (propane in our case), adding > oxygen, adjusting until we have what looks like a good mix, and then > adding air ... at which point the flame is blown out. > | 13140|13140|2007-04-27 21:38:31|dwightgry|Portable Watermaker|A question about having a usable watermaker on a boat that will not allow installation of an engine driven pump, and also to have a portable unit. I have looked at the one Brent has shown in his book, and considering that it uses a pressure washer pump, would it be feasable to just buy a pressure washer, Honda gas powered, from an outlet such as Home Depot or similar, and then make the filter/membrane section as detailed in Brent's book? Then you would have a portable watermaker, that could be used on the boat, or at a cottage if desired.| 13141|13104|2007-04-27 23:30:56|Alex Christie|Re: 36 foot bare hull for sale|I posted the for sale ad while I was away in the USA, which is why it was so brief. I'll add some pics to it soon. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale J. Robertson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 36 foot bare hull for sale ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > Alex's 36 foot hull is still available, can be seen here at: > > http://vancouver.craigslist.org/boa/317883834.html > > > Alex, There is nothing to 'see' at the URL provided. just a (very) brief textual description, No pics. Dale ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.6.1/777 - Release Date: 26/04/2007 3:23 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13142|11985|2007-04-28 04:56:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Flame spray|jnikadie In general the jet hole size for a particular fuel is related to the Wobbe number, which is the heating value divided by the square root of the specific gravity. If you Google for the values of the existing fuel (acetylene?) and the fuel you propose (propane?),calculate the Wobbe number, then divide the Wobbe number of the one by the other to get a ratio then find the cross section area of the jet you have and multiply by the ratio you will find the cross section area and hence the diameter for the new jet. I would expect that the jet diameter for propanee to be the larger. That said measuring the original jet diameter might not be easy and the different fuels may have different propensities to lift off due to their different flame velocities so if you can get the correct jet and find the pressure to set it at you will probably avoid a lot of grief. Regards, Ted| 13143|13143|2007-04-28 05:46:17|edward_stoneuk|Injected polyurethene foam insulation|I have just watched cold water pipes being insulated with injected polyurethane foam. First the pipes were clad with thin aluminium sheet with foam block spacers so that the cladding stood off about 2". The cladding was wiped with engine oil so that leaking foam did not stick and then 3/4" holes where made about every 12" to 18" and the foam injected through them with a van mounted injection machine. The foam would go in one hole then out another. The holes were sealed after with plastic plugs. I thought about a similar set up for insulating a boat interior. One problem is that it is difficult to be sure that the foam is everywhere it should be and the other is that expanding foam has a lot of strength an can push out thin panels. The pipe cladding is tubular of course and can resist the expanding foam. It would be good, though, to foam without having to trim it afterwards. Does anybody have experience or views on injecting foam into the void between the boat onterior panels and the hull. Regards, Ted| 13144|13143|2007-04-28 20:54:10|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Injected polyurethene foam insulation|They do it in older homes all the time and it leaves the sheetrock on the wall. The problem is the voids as you mentioned and in homes they use 1/2# foam not 2# with some of them they heat it to 120 degrees so it realy foams and may be even lighter. The light foam is a poor vaper barior and will not meet coast gard standards or help protect the steel as well. Foaming first is not that big a problem and may help in many ways. It is easly cut and sanded yet stiff enough a thin covering is supported. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have just watched cold water pipes being insulated with injected > polyurethane foam. First the pipes were clad with thin aluminium > sheet with foam block spacers so that the cladding stood off about > 2". The cladding was wiped with engine oil so that leaking foam did > not stick and then 3/4" holes where made about every 12" to 18" and > the foam injected through them with a van mounted injection machine. > The foam would go in one hole then out another. The holes were > sealed after with plastic plugs. > > I thought about a similar set up for insulating a boat interior. One > problem is that it is difficult to be sure that the foam is > everywhere it should be and the other is that expanding foam has a > lot of strength an can push out thin panels. The pipe cladding is > tubular of course and can resist the expanding foam. > > It would be good, though, to foam without having to trim it > afterwards. Does anybody have experience or views on injecting foam > into the void between the boat onterior panels and the hull. > > Regards, > Ted > | 13145|13140|2007-04-28 20:54:28|Paul Wilson|Re: Portable Watermaker|Most of the home pressure washers have aluminum housings which wouldn't last very long in salt water. The good pumps are (silicon?) bronze. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: dwightgry To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 9:30:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Watermaker A question about having a usable watermaker on a boat that will not allow installation of an engine driven pump, and also to have a portable unit. I have looked at the one Brent has shown in his book, and considering that it uses a pressure washer pump, would it be feasable to just buy a pressure washer, Honda gas powered, from an outlet such as Home Depot or similar, and then make the filter/membrane section as detailed in Brent's book? Then you would have a portable watermaker, that could be used on the boat, or at a cottage if desired. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13146|13140|2007-04-28 21:31:00|brentswain38|Re: Portable Watermaker|Such a portable will work fine, no problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dwightgry" wrote: > > A question about having a usable watermaker on a boat that will not > allow installation of an engine driven pump, and also to have a > portable unit. I have looked at the one Brent has shown in his book, > and considering that it uses a pressure washer pump, would it be > feasable to just buy a pressure washer, Honda gas powered, from an > outlet such as Home Depot or similar, and then make the filter/membrane > section as detailed in Brent's book? Then you would have a portable > watermaker, that could be used on the boat, or at a cottage if > desired. > | 13147|11985|2007-04-29 00:11:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|I would love to do exactly what you are saying......water blast and then chemically treat the hull. I have asked a similar question before and never really had a good response. Allow me to whine a bit.....I hate painting, yet it is all I ever seem to do..... I have blisters on my boat I have been fighting for years and wish to start again with a new paint system below the waterline. It is possible to sandblast where I am but it is very expensive and a pain in the ass. Coal tar epoxy is getting hard to find. The paint companies keep reformulating their paints to make them more environmentaly friendly (like take the tar out) and claim they are just as good. Lies, lies, lies. Water blasting is relatively easy and with high pressure will take it right down to bare steel. I like the look of Rust Bullet, which claims to be better than POR-15. Some people swear by POR-15 but I have only heard of one guy using it below the waterline on a cast iron keel and I don't know how long it lasted. Neuta rust (661?) looks good too but it has been around for years and if it is so good, why isn't everybody using it? I have no experience with any of them. Would it really be as good as sand blasting as the makers claim? How are they as a barrier to electolysis? How are they for adhesion to later coats, either epoxy or antifouling? The Rust Bullet claims no other top coats are needed. Will the antifouling stick to it or will it fall off without an epoxy tie-coat? I have been lied to over the years by too many paint representatives to trust them anymore. When a coating fails they just blame you and say you didn't put it on right. All they want is the sale and will say whatever you want to hear. Does anybody have any real experience with these products? Any help greatly appreciated...... Whiningly, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:25:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy Hi Guys, Just looking back over old posts & having just bought a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on the truck but oxidation under the coating under the water line...not too cool. So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust Mort is a really really bad joke!) They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, completely exposed to the elements. so why not wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is converted to ..... well I don't know what it's converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made to be coated over. Cheers, SR Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13148|11985|2007-04-29 01:28:37|Tom|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Gerd sent me this link on a product that treats the water and stops rust bloom for a couple days http://www.holdtight.com/uhpjet.htm Dont know how well it works but if it does sure would make life a lot easyer. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 5:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy > Hi Guys, > > Just looking back over old posts & having just bought > a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to > paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. > > Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right > back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a > major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on > the truck but oxidation under the coating under the > water line...not too cool. > > So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and > exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the > ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust > Mort is a really really bad joke!) > > They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, > completely exposed to the elements. so why not > wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it > dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let > that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your > epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? > > This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is > converted to ..... well I don't know what it's > converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made > to be coated over. > > Cheers, > SR > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email > the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13149|11985|2007-04-29 01:31:10|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Paul, never heard of your POR-15, had a look at the website and seems pretty interesting. I do have a couple of questions that you may or may not know. As far as the price per gallon, I have started using Interlux 2000 with micro plates @ $75 per gal (approx) vrs Pro 15 @ $123 per gal. Interlux 2000 was originally designed for barrier and blister repair on fiberglass yachts due to osmosis below the water line. They have a recommended steel prep with the Viny Lux Wash/Etch/Zinc prep coat, and as of now I have not had any failures, above and below the waterline. After reading the POR-15 website I'm pretty impressed (skeptical) as I have never heard of a paint that claims to be 100% impervious to water. If so is the world shipping and Navy's regardless of country putting this stuff on all of their boats. Why aren't the fiberglass production boats using this to stop osmosis????? As far a sales reps I'm right there with you, Awl Grip, Altex Devo (US Paints Parent Company for both Brands), Joton, etc., its all a have!!!!! Even if you spend the extra money and have the Paint Rep (supposedly) Supervise the Job checking for the right prep work, right humidity, right drying times, right temp, etc, etc........... I'm Fed Up!!!! So that's why I have tried Interlux, why go through this primer and that primer so on and so on. Yes I must admit anything you try is all a gamble, but so far I am a lot happier with this new system and you don't have to stalk 4 different types of primers!!!!! Who Knows I guess that either I don't know or its just another sales pitch, but am a bit skeptical of what they say. Or maybe its just me because the times that I try and save a buck and get the industrial stuff it fails 6months down the track and have to spend it all over again and ends up costing twice as much. Do it once and do it right. Any additional info would be great. As I said paint reps, well you tell me, I'm sure I'll be right there with you Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy I would love to do exactly what you are saying......water blast and then chemically treat the hull. I have asked a similar question before and never really had a good response. Allow me to whine a bit.....I hate painting, yet it is all I ever seem to do..... I have blisters on my boat I have been fighting for years and wish to start again with a new paint system below the waterline. It is possible to sandblast where I am but it is very expensive and a pain in the ass. Coal tar epoxy is getting hard to find. The paint companies keep reformulating their paints to make them more environmentaly friendly (like take the tar out) and claim they are just as good. Lies, lies, lies. Water blasting is relatively easy and with high pressure will take it right down to bare steel. I like the look of Rust Bullet, which claims to be better than POR-15. Some people swear by POR-15 but I have only heard of one guy using it below the waterline on a cast iron keel and I don't know how long it lasted. Neuta rust (661?) looks good too but it has been around for years and if it is so good, why isn't everybody using it? I have no experience with any of them. Would it really be as good as sand blasting as the makers claim? How are they as a barrier to electolysis? How are they for adhesion to later coats, either epoxy or antifouling? The Rust Bullet claims no other top coats are needed. Will the antifouling stick to it or will it fall off without an epoxy tie-coat? I have been lied to over the years by too many paint representatives to trust them anymore. When a coating fails they just blame you and say you didn't put it on right. All they want is the sale and will say whatever you want to hear. Does anybody have any real experience with these products? Any help greatly appreciated...... Whiningly, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:25:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy Hi Guys, Just looking back over old posts & having just bought a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on the truck but oxidation under the coating under the water line...not too cool. So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust Mort is a really really bad joke!) They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, completely exposed to the elements. so why not wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is converted to ..... well I don't know what it's converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made to be coated over. Cheers, SR Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13150|13150|2007-04-29 01:32:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: flame sprayer|too much pressure on the O2 it sounds like .... kinda like me on the gas axe with the damned thing going out with a little "pop" Oh ya, the comment on consumption of beans.... would it not have the opposite effect and you would get a big BOOM!? Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 13151|11985|2007-04-29 02:08:45|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Link to Coal Tar Epoxy http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html Jon| 13152|13152|2007-04-29 06:48:24|Alex|photos of boat for sale|I've posted some photos of the hull for sale on Craigslist. Alex http://vancouver.craigslist.org/boa/317883834.html| 13153|11985|2007-04-29 10:36:00|Carl Anderson|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Paul, Try the Wasser line. They make a tar paint. That is what I'm going with on my boat. But I am sandblasting the entire outside. Carl Paul Wilson wrote: > > I would love to do exactly what you are saying......water blast and > then chemically treat the hull. I have asked a similar question before > and never really had a good response. > > Allow me to whine a bit.....I hate painting, yet it is all I ever seem > to do..... > > I have blisters on my boat I have been fighting for years and wish to > start again with a new paint system below the waterline. It is > possible to sandblast where I am but it is very expensive and a pain > in the ass. Coal tar epoxy is getting hard to find. The paint > companies keep reformulating their paints to make them more > environmentaly friendly (like take the tar out) and claim they are > just as good. Lies, lies, lies. > > Water blasting is relatively easy and with high pressure will take it > right down to bare steel. I like the look of Rust Bullet, which claims > to be better than POR-15. Some people swear by POR-15 but I have only > heard of one guy using it below the waterline on a cast iron keel and > I don't know how long it lasted. Neuta rust (661?) looks good too but > it has been around for years and if it is so good, why isn't everybody > using it? I have no experience with any of them. Would it really be as > good as sand blasting as the makers claim? How are they as a barrier > to electolysis? How are they for adhesion to later coats, either epoxy > or antifouling? The Rust Bullet claims no other top coats are needed. > Will the antifouling stick to it or will it fall off without an epoxy > tie-coat? > > I have been lied to over the years by too many paint representatives > to trust them anymore. When a coating fails they just blame you and > say you didn't put it on right. All they want is the sale and will say > whatever you want to hear. Does anybody have any real experience with > these products? > > Any help greatly appreciated...... > > Whiningly, > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:25:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy > > Hi Guys, > > Just looking back over old posts & having just bought > a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to > paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. > > Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right > back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a > major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on > the truck but oxidation under the coating under the > water line...not too cool. > > So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and > exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the > ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust > Mort is a really really bad joke!) > > They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, > completely exposed to the elements. so why not > wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it > dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let > that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your > epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? > > This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is > converted to ..... well I don't know what it's > converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made > to be coated over. > > Cheers, > SR > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email > the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ > try_beta? .intl=ca > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13154|13154|2007-04-29 12:43:53|Kevin Curry|aluminum instead of steel|After reading here about all the hassle re: steel in salt water, I've become convinced that this level of maintenance and prep is definitely not for me. Can someone refer me to a practical thumbnail analysis of the relative building (not maintenance) cost of steel vs. aluminum in comparable boat plans, using what is generally considered an appropriate aluminum plate thickness & type of alloy in place of the steel plate specified for such plans? For this comparative analysis, retail cost without scrounging is where I'd want to start. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 13155|13154|2007-04-29 14:36:37|brentswain38|Re: aluminum instead of steel|When aluninium fizzles in salt water , it fizzles much more quickly than steel. Aluminium has far less corrosion above the waterline and much more below. Steel has very little corrosion below the waterline and far more above, wher you can keep an eye on it and see any problems long before they become serious. With aluminium , if there is an electrolysis problem , often the first warning is water comming in. The bottoms of my steel keels often remain bare for years at a time with no corrosion ,as long as I keep the zincs up. Steel is far more forgiving when it comes to antifouling paint. It's getting extremely difficult to find antifouling paints that actually stop the growth without eating the hull.Using the wrong one can eat aluminium out very quickly. Drop a penny in an aluminium bilge and it will go right thru. Aluminium welds are much easier to screw up and even the best welds are nowherenearv the 100% strength you get with steel. It has to be done in zero wind, and clean conditions , or it can't be trusted. Failures of aluminium welds are very common. Failures of mild steel welds are extremely rare. In the tropics aluminium will get hot enough to burn the soles off your feet.Living in an aluminium in the tropics can be like living in a sauna. The only way to prevent that is to paint it. The only sure way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry wrote: > > After reading here about all the hassle re: steel in > salt water, I've become convinced that this level of > maintenance and prep is definitely not for me. > > Can someone refer me to a practical thumbnail analysis > of the relative building (not maintenance) cost of > steel vs. aluminum in comparable boat plans, using > what is generally considered an appropriate aluminum > plate thickness & type of alloy in place of the steel > plate specified for such plans? > > For this comparative analysis, retail cost without > scrounging is where I'd want to start. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > | 13156|13156|2007-04-29 14:43:59|shaunbarrymcmillan|aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|You might want to check Mike Kasten's site (Kastenmarine.com). He is mostly a metal boat designer in Port Townsend. He does some work in wood but mostly metal. His site has articles to review and one article expressly compares steel to aluminium. Also, I'm sure that Brent could offer his own opinions. I'm now a lubber, the wife and I are buying shore based property so no boat for now(that's another story)but the run-down is a bit like this. If a plan calls for 3/16 steel you might use 3/8 aluminium. The aluminium needs to be MIG welded so it needs to be covered during the build therefore this cost goes up. For aluminium however, it can be cut with with the same cutting tools used for wood, its lighter and easier to move during the build (again cheaper). It does not need to be painted so it does not need to be re-painted. It does not need internal paint, just a light brush blast with sand inside so the insulation has something to bind to. Aluminium does need special anti-fouling paint. Aluminium does not have the abrasion resistance of steel (if you run onto a reef). Most importantly, aluminium will sacrifice itself to most any other metal and it needs to be protected from stray currents in a marina. With regard to the electrical system for an aluminium boat, keep it simple and try not to plug into shore power. If you plug into shore power absolutely use a marine grade isolation transformer. Better yet keep it simple --its easier in the long term. Use adequate zincs and monitor them well and you should be fine. If I remember correctly Kasten advocates checking the zincs every six months until you get a good handle things. One last thing, there may be many people telling you that aluminium sucks but the bottom line is this--in British Columbia many work boats are unpainted aluminium (fish boats and crew boats, water taxis, and charter vessels). People with work boats will absolutely not use a material that is not efficent and cost effective--why should they? Anyhow-these are just some thoughts of mine-hope they are helpful.Shaun McMillan| 13157|13150|2007-04-29 19:47:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: flame sprayer|Shane, If your acetylene torch keeps going out with a pop there may be another cause. Acetylene is not like propane or other gases. The bottle actually has a fiber filler, like the insides of a magic marker that is soaked with acetone. The acetylene is actually dissolved in the acetone, like CO2 in soda. As you consume the acetylene it fizzes out of the acetone. If your acetylene bottle is too small for the tip you are running the acetylene can't come out of solution fast enough and some of the acetone gets carried to the torch. That huge surge of fuel is what causes the pop, and the explosion blows out the flame. Large rosebud tips usually exhibit this problem unless they are used with large bottles and the temperature is fairly high. For really big tips or cold temperatures you may actually need several bottles connected together. The acetone is also why they tell you never to use an acetylene bottle lying on its side. This will carry out the acetone with the acetylene and an acetylene tank without the acetone is a bomb. Refilling it can cause it to explode. I once had a business with a partner, he was in the gas business so I used to read all the safety literature on this stuff since I frequently worked in a building filled with gas bottles. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:32 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flame sprayer > too much pressure on the O2 it sounds like .... kinda > like me on the gas axe with the damned thing going out > with a little "pop" > > Oh ya, the comment on consumption of beans.... would > it not have the opposite effect and you would get a > big BOOM!? > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email > the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > | 13158|13154|2007-04-29 21:03:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: aluminum instead of steel|To start off with, I agree with pretty much everything Brent is saying; I've put *a lot* of research into metal boats over the years, including a lot of hands-on time and talking to lots of other cruisers who own them and run them. The only thing I've ever seen in aluminium that I would find acceptable for ocean use is a steel hull and an aluminium deck - the US Coast Guard has built a number of vessels like that. This requires those special "explosive-welded" strips (one side is steel, the other is aluminium), and is rather expensive - but that's not a bad combo if you have the cash to spare. Otherwise, steel top and bottom is the answer; there's a reason that pretty much every large commercial vessel is built out of steel. On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 06:32:34PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > When aluninium fizzles in salt water , it fizzles much more quickly > than steel. Aluminium has far less corrosion above the waterline and > much more below. Steel has very little corrosion below the waterline > and far more above, wher you can keep an eye on it and see any > problems long before they become serious. With aluminium , if there > is an electrolysis problem , often the first warning is water > comming in. A number of years ago, I was hired to do an electrical survey of an aluminium-and-wood boat. When I stuck my head down in the bilge and looked at where the shaft exited the hull, I saw that the aluminium around that area - probably a good two square feet of it - had turned into white muck, and was slowly fizzling (and seeping) as I looked at it. The only thing that had stopped it from sinking right there at the dock, from what I could tell, was his big automatic bilge pump - and a bunch of Cheasapeke Bay mud. When I showed this to the owner, he turned several interesting colors. They had isolated the stainless shaft from the aluminium hull, but salt water makes a dandy conductor... > The bottoms of my steel keels often remain bare for years at a time > with no corrosion ,as long as I keep the zincs up. Steel is far more > forgiving when it comes to antifouling paint. It's getting extremely > difficult to find antifouling paints that actually stop the growth > without eating the hull.Using the wrong one can eat aluminium out > very quickly. > Drop a penny in an aluminium bilge and it will go right thru. Saw that in St. Thomas. The captain actually knew when it got dropped, but delayed a while (more than a day, less than a week - I don't remember exactly, though) before digging it out of the bilge. I was visiting his boat when he got around to it, and he showed me the imprint - more than half the hull-plate thickness - where the penny had gone into the metal. > Aluminium welds are much easier to screw up and even the best welds > are nowherenearv the 100% strength you get with steel. It has to be > done in zero wind, and clean conditions , or it can't be trusted. The only places in the Caribbean, for example, where you can get good-quality aluminium welding done - this applies whether you're hiring help or just buying the materials - are Puerto Rico and Venezuela (St. Thomas *might* have stuff you can buy - or you might have to order from "the mainland", which could take up to six weeks.) Welding steel, well, I've got a stick welder on board that gives me 120A of high-frequency DC; all I've got to do is not run out of rod. > Failures of aluminium welds are very common. Failures of mild > steel welds are extremely rare. Also, learning to weld on steel is easy - the color changes and the progressive softening of the metal are very "user-friendly". Aluminium, by contrast, shows pretty much nothing as you heat it... then it drops out leaving a hole. TIG works well, but is slow; MIG is fast but not reliable unless you're a real pro (a bad weld looks the same as a good one.) > In the tropics aluminium will get hot enough to burn the soles off > your feet.Living in an aluminium in the tropics can be like living > in a sauna. The only way to prevent that is to paint it. The only > sure way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it. I've _heard_ from some people that there are etchants that can do the job... but have never found anyone who has used them successfully to do a boat hull. Sandblasting and painting - which is also the only reliable way to prevent the 'penny in the bilge' scenario - raises the already-high cost of an aluminium hull to rather silly levels. The estimates I've heard for the cost of the hull to the rest of the boat, in case of steel hulls, range from 10-20% of the finished boat cost; for aluminium, most people cite 45-60%. I advise doing a bunch of research on aluminium before jumping in. Someone mentioned Michael Kasten's site; that's a good place to start. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 13159|13156|2007-04-30 04:17:57|David A. Frantz|Re: aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|One thing that needs to be addressed is that Welding Aluminum is nothing like welding steel. While Steel needs to be clean Aluminum needs to be pristine. This means no building the boat outdoors! The demand for good fit up and very clean surfaces just can't be handled outside. Second the common aluminum welding methods demand expensive welders and a long learning curve. This means mastering the welding of Aluminum with MIG which is not at all like welding steel. It should not surprise you to learn that many of the low costs aluminum craft are often riveted together. If you are building at home realize that some electrical services will not be suitable for a welder which can handle thick aluminum plate. I've heard that one common estimate of required welder power is 1 amp per thousands of material thickness, which isn't a reliable rule of thumb either as plate size and other things impact the current required. So if doing 1/4 inch plate plan on a 300 amp class welder or bigger. As far as boat maintenance goes there is no getting away from it. It is a reality given a boat of steel or plastic. Just the demands and techniques change. IT is worth noting that steel is maintainable world wide. Something to consider for travels far from home. Dave shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: > > You might want to check Mike Kasten's site (Kastenmarine.com). He is > mostly a metal boat designer in Port Townsend. He does some work in > wood but mostly metal. His site has articles to review and one > article expressly compares steel to aluminium. Also, I'm sure that > Brent could offer his own opinions. I'm now a lubber, the wife and I > are buying shore based property so no boat for now(that's another > story)but the run-down is a bit like this. If a plan calls for 3/16 > steel you might use 3/8 aluminium. The aluminium needs to be MIG > welded so it needs to be covered during the build therefore this cost > goes up. For aluminium however, it can be cut with with the same > cutting tools used for wood, its lighter and easier to move during > the build (again cheaper). It does not need to be painted so it does > not need to be re-painted. It does not need internal paint, just a > light brush blast with sand inside so the insulation has something to > bind to. Aluminium does need special anti-fouling paint. Aluminium > does not have the abrasion resistance of steel (if you run onto a > reef). > > Most importantly, aluminium will sacrifice itself to most any other > metal and it needs to be protected from stray currents in a marina. > With regard to the electrical system for an aluminium boat, keep it > simple and try not to plug into shore power. If you plug into shore > power absolutely use a marine grade isolation transformer. Better yet > keep it simple --its easier in the long term. Use adequate zincs and > monitor them well and you should be fine. If I remember correctly > Kasten advocates checking the zincs every six months until you get a > good handle things. > > One last thing, there may be many people telling you that aluminium > sucks but the bottom line is this--in British Columbia many work > boats are unpainted aluminium (fish boats and crew boats, water > taxis, and charter vessels). People with work boats will absolutely > not use a material that is not efficent and cost effective--why > should they? > > Anyhow-these are just some thoughts of mine-hope they are > helpful.Shaun McMillan > > | 13160|13156|2007-04-30 10:28:16|mkriley48|Re: aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|I have skippered both aluminum and steel yachts long term. There is no comparison with aluminum being at least 10x the upkeep in southern waters. If there is any wood or fairing compound on the decks that can hold water it will corrode at a rate much faster than steel. In southern waters the heat will soak through the insulation at about 1 or 2 am and roast you like a crock pot plus the decks are unwalkable in the sun. Also even if you do everything right you are at the mercy of every person that has a boat in the marina or worked on the dock as no zinc will be able to handle induced electrolysis. Workboats have different uses and priorities than yachts and are meant for cost effectiveness in a restricted lifespan. aluminium decks can be bolted to steel hulls and have been done so for at least 50 years in many large yachts,works well. A unpainted aluminum boat that sails all the time and never goes to a dock and has no or limited electrical system can be very successful,does this sound like you? The French are very good at this type of boat. I have seen quite a few. mike| 13161|13161|2007-04-30 14:37:36|shaunbarrymcmillan|aluminium vs. steel (theory vs. reality)|One of the things that I like about the origami site is the availability of "experience." My thoughts about aluminium were based on simply the readings I have done while its clear that many who use this site have real experience. Metal Boat Quarterly for example, is another valid reference. However, I'll tip my hat to real experience any day. Still, the French and builders in Europe have built some fime alloy boats so it can't be all bad. The point is well made though that steel can be welded much easier and welded outside. Also the point has been made that steel can be repaired world wide with simple arc welding. Also steel has much more abrasion resistance ie on a reef. Things are all something to think about when building a tough as nails world cruiser. Now I hope we can lay this thread to rest and get onto other things. Shaun McMillan| 13162|13156|2007-04-30 16:42:26|brentswain38|Re: aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|Given the tremendous loads on the hull deck joint . I'd be inclined to use steel for the decks and make the transition to aluminium at the deck cabinside joint. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > I have skippered both aluminum and steel yachts long term. > There is no comparison with aluminum being at least 10x the upkeep in > southern waters. If there is any wood or fairing compound on the decks > that can hold water it will corrode at a rate much faster than steel. > In southern waters the heat will soak through the insulation at about > 1 or 2 am and roast you like a crock pot plus the decks are unwalkable > in the sun. Also even if you do everything right you are at the mercy > of every person that has a boat in the marina or worked on the dock > as no zinc will be able to handle induced electrolysis. Workboats > have different uses and priorities than yachts and are meant for cost > effectiveness in a restricted lifespan. aluminium decks can be bolted > to steel hulls and have been done so for at least 50 years in many > large yachts,works well. A unpainted aluminum boat that sails all the > time and never goes to a dock and has no or limited electrical system > can be very successful,does this sound like you? The French are very > good at this type of boat. I have seen quite a few. > mike > | 13163|13156|2007-04-30 16:47:51|brentswain38|Re: aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|I once got overspray from the sprayfoam on marine grade aluminium. You could wipe it off with your hand. I wouldn't trust sprayfoam adhesion on an unpainted aluminium interior. Colvin also has something to say about that. The outside doesn't have to be painted only if you don't mind living on and in a frying pan in the tropics . If not, aluminium has to be painted. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > One thing that needs to be addressed is that Welding Aluminum is nothing > like welding steel. While Steel needs to be clean Aluminum needs to be > pristine. This means no building the boat outdoors! The demand > for good fit up and very clean surfaces just can't be handled outside. > > Second the common aluminum welding methods demand expensive welders and > a long learning curve. This means mastering the welding of Aluminum > with MIG which is not at all like welding steel. It should not > surprise you to learn that many of the low costs aluminum craft are > often riveted together. If you are building at home realize that some > electrical services will not be suitable for a welder which can handle > thick aluminum plate. I've heard that one common estimate of required > welder power is 1 amp per thousands of material thickness, which isn't a > reliable rule of thumb either as plate size and other things impact the > current required. So if doing 1/4 inch plate plan on a 300 amp class > welder or bigger. > > As far as boat maintenance goes there is no getting away from it. It > is a reality given a boat of steel or plastic. Just the demands and > techniques change. IT is worth noting that steel is maintainable > world wide. Something to consider for travels far from home. > > Dave > > shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: > > > > You might want to check Mike Kasten's site (Kastenmarine.com). He is > > mostly a metal boat designer in Port Townsend. He does some work in > > wood but mostly metal. His site has articles to review and one > > article expressly compares steel to aluminium. Also, I'm sure that > > Brent could offer his own opinions. I'm now a lubber, the wife and I > > are buying shore based property so no boat for now(that's another > > story)but the run-down is a bit like this. If a plan calls for 3/16 > > steel you might use 3/8 aluminium. The aluminium needs to be MIG > > welded so it needs to be covered during the build therefore this cost > > goes up. For aluminium however, it can be cut with with the same > > cutting tools used for wood, its lighter and easier to move during > > the build (again cheaper). It does not need to be painted so it does > > not need to be re-painted. It does not need internal paint, just a > > light brush blast with sand inside so the insulation has something to > > bind to. Aluminium does need special anti-fouling paint. Aluminium > > does not have the abrasion resistance of steel (if you run onto a > > reef). > > > > Most importantly, aluminium will sacrifice itself to most any other > > metal and it needs to be protected from stray currents in a marina. > > With regard to the electrical system for an aluminium boat, keep it > > simple and try not to plug into shore power. If you plug into shore > > power absolutely use a marine grade isolation transformer. Better yet > > keep it simple --its easier in the long term. Use adequate zincs and > > monitor them well and you should be fine. If I remember correctly > > Kasten advocates checking the zincs every six months until you get a > > good handle things. > > > > One last thing, there may be many people telling you that aluminium > > sucks but the bottom line is this--in British Columbia many work > > boats are unpainted aluminium (fish boats and crew boats, water > > taxis, and charter vessels). People with work boats will absolutely > > not use a material that is not efficent and cost effective--why > > should they? > > > > Anyhow-these are just some thoughts of mine-hope they are > > helpful.Shaun McMillan > > > > > | 13164|11985|2007-04-30 16:59:26|brentswain38|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Carl. Your primer looks good. Why would you sandblast the entire outside? Seems like a total waste of time and money. Blasters often advise blasting the works, because that results in the greatest amount of your money in their pocket. It's amazing how many people belive that this advice is given with their interest and not that of the blaster's in mind. Paint companies also give the same advice because that means you will be re-purchasing the primer that you blast off from them. My boat has the original primer that it had when the steel came from the supplier and it is as good as the day I launched 23 years ago Don' t be played for a sucker. Just blast the welds and rusted parts. Save your money for cruising. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Paul, > > Try the Wasser line. > They make a tar paint. > That is what I'm going with on my boat. > But I am sandblasting the entire outside. > > Carl > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I would love to do exactly what you are saying......water blast and > > then chemically treat the hull. I have asked a similar question before > > and never really had a good response. > > > > Allow me to whine a bit.....I hate painting, yet it is all I ever seem > > to do..... > > > > I have blisters on my boat I have been fighting for years and wish to > > start again with a new paint system below the waterline. It is > > possible to sandblast where I am but it is very expensive and a pain > > in the ass. Coal tar epoxy is getting hard to find. The paint > > companies keep reformulating their paints to make them more > > environmentaly friendly (like take the tar out) and claim they are > > just as good. Lies, lies, lies. > > > > Water blasting is relatively easy and with high pressure will take it > > right down to bare steel. I like the look of Rust Bullet, which claims > > to be better than POR-15. Some people swear by POR-15 but I have only > > heard of one guy using it below the waterline on a cast iron keel and > > I don't know how long it lasted. Neuta rust (661?) looks good too but > > it has been around for years and if it is so good, why isn't everybody > > using it? I have no experience with any of them. Would it really be as > > good as sand blasting as the makers claim? How are they as a barrier > > to electolysis? How are they for adhesion to later coats, either epoxy > > or antifouling? The Rust Bullet claims no other top coats are needed. > > Will the antifouling stick to it or will it fall off without an epoxy > > tie-coat? > > > > I have been lied to over the years by too many paint representatives > > to trust them anymore. When a coating fails they just blame you and > > say you didn't put it on right. All they want is the sale and will say > > whatever you want to hear. Does anybody have any real experience with > > these products? > > > > Any help greatly appreciated...... > > > > Whiningly, > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:25:08 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > Just looking back over old posts & having just bought > > a wet sandblast attachment for the power washer to > > paint my "new" 15 year old truck.. > > > > Ok, so you get a rust bloom when you bring it right > > back to bare steel with a wet blaster which can be a > > major hasstle in adhesion of coatings. Not an issue on > > the truck but oxidation under the coating under the > > water line...not too cool. > > > > So, what about Neutra rust 441 (a British product and > > exellent!) or Blue Steel (an american product and the > > ONLY one worth a damn that I've found here . "Rust > > Mort is a really really bad joke!) > > > > They use this stuff on offshore North Sea oil rigs, > > completely exposed to the elements. so why not > > wetblast, wrince with water, go have lunch & let it > > dry, slap on the neutrarust or the Blue Steel, let > > that dry & sit for 24 hours, then have at it with your > > epoxy tar or whatever you are going to use? > > > > This way no corrosion as the rust=oxidation is > > converted to ..... well I don't know what it's > > converted to but it doesnt corrode any more & its made > > to be coated over. > > > > Cheers, > > SR > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email > > the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ > > try_beta? .intl=ca > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 13165|13165|2007-04-30 19:27:58|Tom|Stern tube|Hello All Well on my 26 I didnt like the stern tube I put in, it was 1-1/2" sch80 pipe so I cut it out and put in a little thicker wall pipe not sure what you would call it but it mikes out at .210" wall and is seamless and it is 1.5" ID perfect for the cutlass berring. I went a 1/2" longer out the stern so I had enough room for 3/8" holes in front of the berring. What I am thinking about doing instead of trying to paint inside the tube is drive a piece of stainless tubing inside, 1-1/2" OD x .065 wall down to the front of cutlass berring . Seems to me that would be a lot easyer than trying to paint in there and if I grease it up good before putting in stainless should get many years of trouble free service. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13166|13166|2007-04-30 19:58:50|Mike|Here's a wierd offer|Due to the volume of work in the ship repair industry, I haven't had a real vacation in 3 years. Fed up with aspects of the refit of the M.V. "Queen of Alberni", I approached my boss & told him that either I went on vacation, now, or I quit. So, here I am on vacation. Now, what do I do?(LOL) So, I started off thinking about driving around the coast, looking at some of the Brent Swain designed boats. Then, I thought, why not see if anyone who is presently building(anywhere in B.C.) could use a free, extra hand next week. Therefore, I'm offering my services from the 7th, through the 13th of May. I'd be staying in a local motel & soaking in the local atmosphere, but I'd make myself available for 6 to 8 hours of serious welding, each day. If I manage to plate my flatdeck this weekend - my welder trailer's shot - I'd be willing to bring my Hobart portable, but would expect the builder to furnish the diesel. I can be reached at: intiaboats@... or by calling (604)215-8713, ask for Mike.| 13167|13165|2007-04-30 20:04:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stern tube,|Tom, Stainless gets its stainless properties from the the skin of chrome oxide that forms on it. If the surface is damaged and then covered in water the damaged chrome oxide cannot form (no oxygen in the water) and it will rust. This can happen with stainless steel water tanks, where the chrome oxide layaer is burnt off during welded and the heat affected area is not passivated. That said, if the water is flowing and turbulent there may be enough oxygen in it to do the trick as in rudder fittings. The sand blaster stuck his nozzle down both ends of my stern tube and made a pretty good job of it. I have painted it with zinc primer by pouring the paint down it and using a rag pull through. I will probably do it again with bituminous paint. Tom Colvin in his boat building book, recommended something similar for painting the inside of steel masts, without blasting them inside. They would be too long for effective blasting unless one used a special nozzle for the job. Regards, Ted| 13168|13165|2007-05-01 04:05:23|sae140|Re: Stern tube,|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Stainless gets its stainless properties from the the skin of chrome > oxide that forms on it. If the surface is damaged and then covered > in water the damaged chrome oxide cannot form (no oxygen in the > water) and it will rust. This can happen with stainless steel water > tanks, where the chrome oxide layaer is burnt off during welded and > the heat affected area is not passivated. That said, if the water is > flowing and turbulent there may be enough oxygen in it to do the > trick as in rudder fittings. > I recently bought a large boxful of what appeared to be 316 s/s rod at a boot sale, after duly testing a few random samples at the top of the pile with a magnet. But on later inspection, many of the rods lower down in the pile were found to be highly magnetic (!) and showed signs of what I initially thought was surface rust. Thinking that these might be plated steel, I decided to wire brush the 'rust' from one sample piece and subject it to standing salt-water immersion (in a sealed container) as an experiment. After 7 days the 'rusted' control area was significantly more corroded, but the wire-brushed area was completely unmarked and just as I had prepared it. Tentative conclusion: On the strength of just one sample, it appears that in practice very little oxygen may be required to form a protective layer on some types of stainless steel (this sample type not known, but certainly not 316 or 304), but once started crevice corrosion can accelerate markedly, even in the presence of levels of dissolved oxygen which would otherwise protect an unmarked surface. Following enquiries, it appears that these rods were stock to be used for making kitchen fittings, and had been stored using plastic sheeting to protect their polished surfaces. Moisture had somehow become trapped inside the plastic, resulting in surface crevice corrosion where contact with the plastic had denied air to the metal, following which the batch had been condemned. Colin| 13169|13165|2007-05-01 04:24:23|jim_both|Re: Stern tube|I used a three-legged spring-loaded hone normally used for engine and brake cylinders to bore out the stern tube. It worked well mounted on an extension tube in a drill. Then I used bottle mop to paint the inside. Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Well on my 26 I didnt like the stern tube I put in, it was 1-1/2" sch80 pipe so I cut it out and put in a little thicker wall pipe not sure what you would call it but it mikes out at .210" wall and is seamless and it is 1.5" ID perfect for the cutlass berring. I went a 1/2" longer out the stern so I had enough room for 3/8" holes in front of the berring. What I am thinking about doing instead of trying to paint inside the tube is drive a piece of stainless tubing inside, 1-1/2" OD x .065 wall down to the front of cutlass berring . Seems to me that would be a lot easyer than trying to paint in there and if I grease it up good before putting in stainless should get many years of trouble free service. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13170|13166|2007-05-01 12:52:11|Mike|Re: Here's a wierd offer|Well, it looks like Courtenay is the place to be next week. I am looking forward to working with Paul(Liebenberg) and, if time allows, Julian & Sonia. I understand that there are a number of builders in the area & would like to view as many boats as possible. I expect to arrive in Courtenay on May 7th and "hang around" until the 13th. Mike P.S. Yes, I do know how to spell "weird"(lol) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Due to the volume of work in the ship repair industry, I haven't had a > real vacation in 3 years. Fed up with aspects of the refit of the > M.V. "Queen of Alberni", I approached my boss & told him that either I > went on vacation, now, or I quit. So, here I am on vacation. Now, what > do I do?(LOL) > > So, I started off thinking about driving around the coast, looking at > some of the Brent Swain designed boats. Then, I thought, why not see if > anyone who is presently building(anywhere in B.C.) could use a free, > extra hand next week. Therefore, I'm offering my services from the 7th, > through the 13th of May. I'd be staying in a local motel & soaking in > the local atmosphere, but I'd make myself available for 6 to 8 hours of > serious welding, each day. If I manage to plate my flatdeck this > weekend - my welder trailer's shot - I'd be willing to bring my Hobart > portable, but would expect the builder to furnish the diesel. I can be > reached at: intiaboats@... or by calling (604)215-8713, ask for > Mike. > | 13171|13171|2007-05-01 16:25:51|Tony Lester|Aluminum in Boats|Aluminum boats are not easy. I spent a year researching AL Boats before buying one. I spent three years more understanding them. They are far better than Fiberglass or Steel but they are different. They are far lighter than steel or fiberglass therefore their performance is better. They corrode less than steel and are less prone to damage than fiberglass therefore with a little maintenance they will age better. Cleanliness is an absolute with AL. You have to make sure your bilges are clean. Not just pennys but dirt or wet wood will cause spot corrosion. I sandblasted, Zinc-Chromated Painted and epoxy my bilges therefore if something does sneak in the damage wont be that great. Also, I left clean out opening in floor and will use to clean down there on occasion. You can't use any Copper in your Bottom paint, there are some very good paint that don't have CU but they are not cheap. You need to make sure you don't anchor over any iron or steel debris or berth next to a steel hull. Or somewhere with bad power. I have a 300lb isolation transformer, galvanic corrosion sensors, and solar panels and don't connect to shore power much. Welding for repairs can be made with small setup like Readyweld that use batteries and MIGs welds whatever your want. T But for Building any boat you better have the right tool$ and equipment$ otherwise the time will kill you $$$. Building a AL Boat or any boat requires $$$$. If you can afford it and can keep an eye on it- AL is the best. As a friend of mine says, "There are two types of boats, broken ones and the ones that are breaking" . He is a boat mechanic. Same applies to Steel, Fiberglass or Aluminum, - They just breakdown differently [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13172|13171|2007-05-02 01:13:43|Mike|Re: Aluminum in Boats|"They are far better..." Hmmm. Based on your description, it sounds like they are far more expensive & problematic than the alternatives. Personally, I would prefer to not dedicate too much time in discerning where I may moor or berth, whether the local brand of paint is copper free, or how I am going to manage a sterile, quality repair in the middle of nowhere. Provided one can gain access to Argon, aluminum plate, carry a gas-metal-arc welder on board, keep his/her filler metal non- contaminated to the time when it is needed, and is a competent aluminum welder, I suppose it could be considered a decent material to build a world cruiser from, providing you have very deep pockets. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Aluminum boats are not easy. I spent a year researching AL Boats before > buying one. I spent three years more understanding them. They are far > better than Fiberglass or Steel but they are different. > > They are far lighter than steel or fiberglass therefore their > performance is better. > They corrode less than steel and are less prone to damage than > fiberglass therefore with a little maintenance they will age better. > Cleanliness is an absolute with AL. You have to make sure your bilges > are clean. Not just pennys but dirt or wet wood will cause spot > corrosion. I sandblasted, Zinc-Chromated Painted and epoxy my bilges > therefore if something does sneak in the damage wont be that great. > Also, I left clean out opening in floor and will use to clean down > there on occasion. > > You can't use any Copper in your Bottom paint, there are some very good > paint that don't have CU but they are not cheap. > > You need to make sure you don't anchor over any iron or steel debris or > berth next to a steel hull. Or somewhere with bad power. I have a 300lb > isolation transformer, galvanic corrosion sensors, and solar panels and > don't connect to shore power much. > > Welding for repairs can be made with small setup like Readyweld that use > batteries and MIGs welds whatever your want. T But for Building any boat > you better have the right tool$ and equipment$ otherwise the time will > kill you $$$. > > Building a AL Boat or any boat requires $$$$. If you can afford it and > can keep an eye on it- AL is the best. > > As a friend of mine says, "There are two types of boats, broken ones and > the ones that are breaking" . He is a boat mechanic. > > Same applies to Steel, Fiberglass or Aluminum, - They just breakdown > differently > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13173|11985|2007-05-02 01:34:43|Mike|Re: Flame spray|LMAO That sounds like rocket science, to me, Ted. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > jnikadie > > In general the jet hole size for a particular fuel is related to the > Wobbe number, which is the heating value divided by the square root of > the specific gravity. If you Google for the values of the existing > fuel (acetylene?) and the fuel you propose (propane?),calculate the > Wobbe number, then divide the Wobbe number of the one by the other to > get a ratio then find the cross section area of the jet you have and > multiply by the ratio you will find the cross section area and hence > the diameter for the new jet. I would expect that the jet diameter for > propanee to be the larger. That said measuring the original jet > diameter might not be easy and the different fuels may have different > propensities to lift off due to their different flame velocities so if > you can get the correct jet and find the pressure to set it at you will > probably avoid a lot of grief. > > Regards, > Ted > | 13174|13166|2007-05-02 06:35:30|Josiah Fisher|Here's a wierd offer|Talk about a busman's holiday! Does anyone know where I can get enough steel for a 40' Swain, and a place to build it in BC, by Monday the 7th? Josiah| 13175|11985|2007-05-02 08:06:47|edward_stoneuk|Re: Flame spray|Not really rocket science Mike, In the UK when they changed from town gas (coal gas) to North Sea (natural) gas, the Gas Board sent fitters to every house that used gas and changed the burners on the stoves and heaters etc. The other way of doing it is to try different pressure settings and jet sizes until you get it burning OK and a similar amount of heat out of it. If you are changing from acetylene to propane then I think you will probably need a larger jet. One thing though; although you can gas axe with oxy propane it makes a bit of a pig's ear welding. It may not be a clean enough fuel to flame spray. It might be worthwhile to call the manufacturers before spending too much time on it. Regards, Ted| 13176|13165|2007-05-02 13:01:00|will jones|Re: Stern tube,|Easy to make a long arm blaster with a 45 degree tilt. We have made them out of the hose and just used a 1-1/2 inch galv 45 degree with the discharge reduced to take the nozzle. Did a bunch of 4" x 40' pipe with the setup. We used a piece of wood and some duct tape (use a lot of tape since rebound eats at the tape) to tape the galv nipple to hold the nozzle and used clothesline to pull the nozzle through the pipe. Uses a lot of sand blast because you have to make multiple passes to do the whole pipe. You get less than 1/4 of the pipe with each pass. Just rotate the pipe a little and make another pass. We used black beauty slag and could blast a couple of times per bag, if you screen out the fines. edward_stoneuk wrote: Tom, Stainless gets its stainless properties from the the skin of chrome oxide that forms on it. If the surface is damaged and then covered in water the damaged chrome oxide cannot form (no oxygen in the water) and it will rust. This can happen with stainless steel water tanks, where the chrome oxide layaer is burnt off during welded and the heat affected area is not passivated. That said, if the water is flowing and turbulent there may be enough oxygen in it to do the trick as in rudder fittings. The sand blaster stuck his nozzle down both ends of my stern tube and made a pretty good job of it. I have painted it with zinc primer by pouring the paint down it and using a rag pull through. I will probably do it again with bituminous paint. Tom Colvin in his boat building book, recommended something similar for painting the inside of steel masts, without blasting them inside. They would be too long for effective blasting unless one used a special nozzle for the job. Regards, Ted Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13177|11985|2007-05-02 16:02:25|Mike|Re: Flame spray|Ted, I "got" a real kick out of your explanation. In my steelwork experience - as well as growing up with a metallurgical engineer for a father - I'd never heard of "wobbe" until I read your post. I think that the "layman's" way of describing the difference would be to suggest that acetylene requires an equal amount of oxygen to burn a neutral flame, whereas, propane requires 4.5 times the amount of oxygen. I have very little experience with flame spraying, limited to hardsurfacing lawnmower blades, but use propane for gas cutting in my daily work. As you point out, one requires different tips for using propane, at times, a different mixing chamber. I would have to disagree with you on the quality of the cut, however. Though oxy-propane has a lower flame temperature and, therefore, a slower start than oxy-acetylene, it produces a cleaner cut than acetylene, with little or no resultant slag along the bottom edge of the plate. When I first began working with oxy-propane, my co-workers would berate me for using a #2 tip to cut steel of 3/16" to 5/8"(As you may know, a #2 tip for oxy-acetylene is for cutting thicknesses of 3/4" to 1 1/2") Many of my co-workers use a #4 tip with oxy-propane & I carry several tips, from #1 to #4(#1 and #2 because I am stubborn). I'll be seeing Paul next week and will see if I can help with this challenge. For now, however, I must go & google wobbe. Your input in this group always prompts me to expand my mind. Thanks buddy! Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Not really rocket science Mike, > > In the UK when they changed from town gas (coal gas) to North Sea > (natural) gas, the Gas Board sent fitters to every house that used gas > and changed the burners on the stoves and heaters etc. The other way of > doing it is to try different pressure settings and jet sizes until you > get it burning OK and a similar amount of heat out of it. If you are > changing from acetylene to propane then I think you will probably need > a larger jet. One thing though; although you can gas axe with oxy > propane it makes a bit of a pig's ear welding. It may not be a clean > enough fuel to flame spray. It might be worthwhile to call the > manufacturers before spending too much time on it. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13178|11985|2007-05-02 20:18:33|edward_stoneuk|Re: Flame spray|Thanks Mike. I meant oxy propane welding rather than cutting, which is good. I tried welding with it once and made a pig's ear of it. I was told that oxy propane welding was no good, it might have been me though. Regards, Ted| 13179|13156|2007-05-02 20:56:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: aluminium instead of steel (just my thoughts)|I would agree with Brent. It will be very difficult to properly isolate a hull-deck joint to reduce corrosion. Better chance with a vertical joint and you get a stiffer hull as well. Personally I doubt I'd do this. The weight savings would be minimal and you're complicating construction. FWIW I have 2, 9m aluminium workboats with 6mm plate hulls in my work fleet and they don't require a lot of maintenance as far as the hull etc goes. I doubt I'd build an aluminium boat for myself, though I keep coming back to the idea, and I do have a protected shed, 3 phase power etc etc. The cost of the material up front and the care needed over its lifetime is a bit offputting. Workboats are different, they're designed to take a bashing. PDW > Given the tremendous loads on the hull deck joint . I'd be inclined > to use steel for the decks and make the transition to aluminium at > the deck cabinside joint. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > I have skippered both aluminum and steel yachts long term. > > There is no comparison with aluminum being at least 10x the upkeep > in > > southern waters. If there is any wood or fairing compound on the > decks > > that can hold water it will corrode at a rate much faster than > steel. > > In southern waters the heat will soak through the insulation at > about > > 1 or 2 am and roast you like a crock pot plus the decks are > unwalkable > > in the sun. Also even if you do everything right you are at the > mercy > > of every person that has a boat in the marina or worked on the dock > > as no zinc will be able to handle induced electrolysis. Workboats > > have different uses and priorities than yachts and are meant for > cost > > effectiveness in a restricted lifespan. aluminium decks can be > bolted > > to steel hulls and have been done so for at least 50 years in many > > large yachts,works well. A unpainted aluminum boat that sails all > the > > time and never goes to a dock and has no or limited electrical > system > > can be very successful,does this sound like you? The French are very > > good at this type of boat. I have seen quite a few. > > mike > > > | 13180|13154|2007-05-02 21:06:33|peter_d_wiley|Re: aluminum instead of steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry wrote: > > After reading here about all the hassle re: steel in > salt water, I've become convinced that this level of > maintenance and prep is definitely not for me. > > Can someone refer me to a practical thumbnail analysis > of the relative building (not maintenance) cost of > steel vs. aluminum in comparable boat plans, using > what is generally considered an appropriate aluminum > plate thickness & type of alloy in place of the steel > plate specified for such plans? Some information for a Colvin Witch: Framing - 6061 T6 75x8 FB instead of 65x6 steel. Longs were a bit bigger too. Hull - 5083 6mm instead of 4mm steel. Building - al is a lot fussier, I might do it and I might not, but I have both the training & experience plus a sheltered shop. I keep thinking of a Buehler POGO in 4mm al to play with out the front of my place.... bitch to weld 4mm fair, tho, I'd TIG it. Pricing - work out what you need & ring a few metal merchants. Al is going to be a *lot* dearer, how much depends on metal prices on the day. If I wanted a metal boat under 30' I'd look closely at al to maximise stores capacity. Over 35' it'd be steel. PDW| 13181|13181|2007-05-03 02:57:24|mickeyolaf|Dual Alternators ?|Is it a good idea to belt a second alternator off of the prop shaft when sailing to take advantage of the free spinning prop or is it not worth the drag and stress to the shaft and crank etc?| 13182|13182|2007-05-03 06:42:13|valery19772000|Aluminium proa|I am new to this site and am looking into building a 24 foot proa with a beam of 1 foot and 3 foot deep main hull. I have plan that I just finish and was wondering if anybody on this site would have enought experience to let me know if my hull that I want to build will be strong enought. I could show the plan. So far I am planning to use 5052 H32 0.0891 inch thick sheet. Mig wleded. Cross section reinforcement every 1.5 feet for the first 6 feet in the middle of the hull to every 2 feet after that, those cross section will be made with the same materials. I know that in shear there is no problem, but I really do not have any experience with aluminium boat building or I would say with boat building. Would like to know if someone as enought experience, to give me some imput Thanks VAL from CANADA| 13183|13181|2007-05-03 10:19:09|David A. Frantz|Re: Dual Alternators ?|I suspect tat this is an issue of how important is electrical power to you. Some very modern electric boat implementations do this, though they use the drive motor as a generator in that situation. As to your questions about stress, that could be taken care of by little care in design. The side thrust can be lowered with the use of a timing belt. The question about drag is also interesting and I suspect that only you can really answer the question. Obviously there will be drag. First because a feathering prop wouldn't make sense. Second due to there being no free lunch and the act of generating electricity causing mechanical losses or maybe more correctly needing energy input. Related here is that issue of alternator efficiency at very low speeds, you won't get a lot of power but maybe enough for light charge currents. The above comes from what I know about electricity. Hopefully somebody will respond with practical experience here. Dave mickeyolaf wrote: > > Is it a good idea to belt a second alternator off of the prop shaft > when sailing to take advantage of the free spinning prop or is it not > worth the drag and stress to the shaft and crank etc? > > | 13184|13182|2007-05-03 10:42:16|Aaron Williams|Re: Aluminium proa|Val Is this boat going to be used in salt water? That is some very thin aluminum for welding on unless one has lots of experence. Aaron valery19772000 wrote: I am new to this site and am looking into building a 24 foot proa with a beam of 1 foot and 3 foot deep main hull. I have plan that I just finish and was wondering if anybody on this site would have enought experience to let me know if my hull that I want to build will be strong enought. I could show the plan. So far I am planning to use 5052 H32 0.0891 inch thick sheet. Mig wleded. Cross section reinforcement every 1.5 feet for the first 6 feet in the middle of the hull to every 2 feet after that, those cross section will be made with the same materials. I know that in shear there is no problem, but I really do not have any experience with aluminium boat building or I would say with boat building. Would like to know if someone as enought experience, to give me some imput Thanks VAL from CANADA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13185|13181|2007-05-03 11:01:18|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Dual Alternators ?|How would you decouple the drive shaft from the engine? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: spinwizard@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dual Alternators ? I suspect tat this is an issue of how important is electrical power to you. Some very modern electric boat implementations do this, though they use the drive motor as a generator in that situation. As to your questions about stress, that could be taken care of by little care in design. The side thrust can be lowered with the use of a timing belt. The question about drag is also interesting and I suspect that only you can really answer the question. Obviously there will be drag. First because a feathering prop wouldn't make sense. Second due to there being no free lunch and the act of generating electricity causing mechanical losses or maybe more correctly needing energy input. Related here is that issue of alternator efficiency at very low speeds, you won't get a lot of power but maybe enough for light charge currents. The above comes from what I know about electricity. Hopefully somebody will respond with practical experience here. Dave mickeyolaf wrote: > > Is it a good idea to belt a second alternator off of the prop shaft > when sailing to take advantage of the free spinning prop or is it not > worth the drag and stress to the shaft and crank etc? > > ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13186|13182|2007-05-03 12:17:53|valery19772000|Re: Aluminium proa|Well I took the thickness to use from the specification I found from a poontoon maker over here on his website. A pontoon has cylindrical shape so maybe it helps. No I don't plan to use it in salt water but would like to build it for salt water also who knows. It will never stay in water for an extensive period of time. I am not going to be the welder who will do the job, the welder is an experiance one that do alot of work for us. He make stainless steel cabinets for hospital, restaurant and alot of ornomental work for architect. From what I know when I talk to him it is not a problem at all to weld this thickness, he even told me he could weld thinner If I need to. But nobody around where I live as experience with boat building so would like to know if somebody could let me know if it will not bend or at what distance should I put my cross- section support. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Val > Is this boat going to be used in salt water? > That is some very thin aluminum for welding on unless one has lots of experence. > > Aaron > > > valery19772000 wrote: > I am new to this site and am looking into building a 24 foot proa with a beam of 1 foot > and 3 foot deep main hull. > > I have plan that I just finish and was wondering if anybody on this site would have enought > experience to let me know if my hull that I want to build will be strong enought. > > I could show the plan. So far I am planning to use 5052 H32 0.0891 inch thick sheet. Mig > wleded. Cross section reinforcement every 1.5 feet for the first 6 feet in the middle of the > hull to every 2 feet after that, those cross section will be made with the same materials. > > I know that in shear there is no problem, but I really do not have any experience with > aluminium boat building or I would say with boat building. > > Would like to know if someone as enought experience, to give me some imput > > Thanks > > VAL from CANADA > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13187|13182|2007-05-03 18:21:15|Denis Buggy|Re: Aluminium proa|VAL my research on proas some time ago made mention of one built using aluminums ladders as the structure this was in the ayrs web site some years ago I was using a Malibu two man kayak for the outrigger and going to fold 2mmgalvanise for the aka with pop rivets and sikaflex252 as the glue as it is good for 500lbs per sq inch and a small proa need not be finished to a high standard as you will be forever tweaking it to get it to sail properly and all of the German sites have experimented for years and have all found religion at the end and bow to the thousands of years of wisdom of Micronesia proas who could outsail any navy or merchant clipper for hundreds of years , their sailors had barely time to scribble a drawing as they watched them passing by the best Europe could do with their flotsam and sticks tied toghter with vegetable . i believe they remain the fastest sailing design on the planet .regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminium proa Val Is this boat going to be used in salt water? That is some very thin aluminum for welding on unless one has lots of experence. Aaron valery19772000 wrote: I am new to this site and am looking into building a 24 foot proa with a beam of 1 foot and 3 foot deep main hull. I have plan that I just finish and was wondering if anybody on this site would have enought experience to let me know if my hull that I want to build will be strong enought. I could show the plan. So far I am planning to use 5052 H32 0.0891 inch thick sheet. Mig wleded. Cross section reinforcement every 1.5 feet for the first 6 feet in the middle of the hull to every 2 feet after that, those cross section will be made with the same materials. I know that in shear there is no problem, but I really do not have any experience with aluminium boat building or I would say with boat building. Would like to know if someone as enought experience, to give me some imput Thanks VAL from CANADA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13188|13181|2007-05-04 05:13:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Dual Alternators ?|When I checked into it I read somewhere that it doesn't work unless you swing a 16 inch prop and are going at least 5 knots. For a 36 foot boat that is impractical. A turning prop creates more drag than a fixed one as well and some gearboxes don't like to free spin. Sorry, I can't remember my sources but for some reason I remember the rest of it....must be cruisenheimer's disease. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 1:57:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Dual Alternators ? Is it a good idea to belt a second alternator off of the prop shaft when sailing to take advantage of the free spinning prop or is it not worth the drag and stress to the shaft and crank etc? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13189|13189|2007-05-04 18:39:11|Tony Lester|Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. Even welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building from zero.| 13190|13189|2007-05-05 21:07:20|Mike|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Excellent advice, Tony. If someone in the Pacific Northwest(Canada, U.S.A.) were planning to build a 36 footer from Brent's stock plans, I have heard of at least two available in the Courtenay area of British Columbia. Having said that, I was reading the latest edition of the Boat Journal(local magazine) and saw a brokerage listing for an aluminum 36' hull & deck. The asking price is C$88,000.00! With so many complete, comparable boats - of various materials - on the market, one should not expect to make a profit on the construction and sale of one, especially when labour costs are considered. For builders who intend to enjoy the use of their boat for an extended period, however, cost of construction is insignificant. Last year I sold a 1967 Dodge charger for $42,000.00 . If I add up the many years of storage and labour that I had put into "her", I probably did little more than break even. Still, what was it worth each time I made the hair on the back of my neck stand up? Priceless. Every time Brent Swain moors his boat in the bay of some South Pacific island, what's his boat worth to him? Priceless, I'll wager. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your > materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and > the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such > that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. > Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at > 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. Even > welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be > pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building > from zero. > | 13191|13191|2007-05-06 13:36:27|Jonathan Stevens|Raised Deck|Dear All, The eighteen footer I'm working on, will have a raised deck for the front eight feet or so. Raised about six inches above the line of the bulwark for the rest of the boat. I intend to cap it all with tube as per Brent's designs. I have two design options. One is that I run a pipe at a level six inches below the rear, twelve inches below the front and fold the hull, then put on the next six/twelve inches and cap that. Two is that I cut the hull sides to the finished height and cap it before folding. This is my preferred choice. My concern is that the bulwark will not be fair at the transition from six to twelve. Although that transition will have a vertical curve, I would like that curve to be fairly tight. Would the sides fold fair if I were to assemble the hull sides completely with the two pipes as per option one? (A third choice!) I welcome all suggestions. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13192|13189|2007-05-07 07:17:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Excellent advice, Tony. > > If someone in the Pacific Northwest(Canada, U.S.A.) were planning to > build a 36 footer from Brent's stock plans, I have heard of at least > two available in the Courtenay area of British Columbia. Having said > that, I was reading the latest edition of the Boat Journal(local > magazine) and saw a brokerage listing for an aluminum 36' hull & deck. > The asking price is C$88,000.00! Joke. There's a Colvin Witch (PRUDENCE) in alumin for sale at less than half that price. > With so many complete, comparable boats - of various materials - on the > market, one should not expect to make a profit on the construction and > sale of one, especially when labour costs are considered. Exactly. It's basically irrelevant how much the thing has cost to date (including or especially labour), until it's in the water, complete & sailing the relevant figure is how much it'll cost to get it to that state. That's how I value unfinished 'project' boats. Usually the owners have a different opinion which is their privelige. At least 2 I know of are still rusting away in yards. Who would take seriously the notion that a ferrocement hull was worth a ton of money because it was so labor-intensive to build? Unfinished metal hull is worth the scrap value of the material IMO. A bit more if the welding is well done and it doesn't need sandblasting to get rid of the rust. I've turned down a free hull because of extensive rust - deceased estate. At present I can buy a complete, in the water, sailing 36' steel boat for approx $10K less than I could build one the same displacement, the only reasons for building are that I like building things and I'll get something done exactly how I want it done. PDW| 13193|13193|2007-05-07 09:42:17|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Bicarbonate Soda Blasting|This is a general question, does anybody know the pro's and con's of using Bicarbonate Soda for Sand Blasting vrs. Black Beauty - medium grade sand. Any useful info would help. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13194|13189|2007-05-07 13:06:34|Ray|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Last year I sold a 1967 Dodge charger for $42,000.00 . If I add up Was this a big-block or a Hemi? Did it go through Barrett Jackson? | 13195|13193|2007-05-07 19:43:30|T & D Cain|Re: Bicarbonate Soda Blasting|Cameron, Bi-carb. cleaning is no substitute for abrasive blasting with sharp grains of heavy material. Either copper slag or garnet of the correct grade (mesh retention size), propelled by not less than 90psi through a convergent/divergent ceramic nozzle is the best preparation for a steel surface. Opinions vary on the minimum size of particle. Small cleans fast but develops little profile. Starting size (max. dimension) of around 2 to 2.5 mm is very good in copper slag. Garnet works fast and profiles reasonably at 1 to 1.5 mm, but the finer grades are popular because they clean fast --- profile not as good. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: Monday, 7 May 2007 11:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Bicarbonate Soda Blasting This is a general question, does anybody know the pro's and con's of using Bicarbonate Soda for Sand Blasting vrs. Black Beauty - medium grade sand. Any useful info would help. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13196|13196|2007-05-07 20:32:44|Tom|pickling paste on stainless|Hello all I finally found a industrial supply place that sells pickling paste for stainless steel so i bought a jug of it, they didnt know much about it as far as using it. The instructions on the jug are not to good says use pickling paste brush and brush it on. Any one have any advise how to use this stuff? and what is a pickling paste brush. Thanks for any advice Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13197|9840|2007-05-08 00:11:13|Tom|BS 26|Hello all On the 26 when using 1-1/2" pipe for the stern tube ( prop shaft tube ) there is not enough room to put the coolant draw tube down the side of skeg, only about 1/2" clearance at most between tube and skeg side, Lucky enough there is just enough room under stuffing box an prop shaft to run it down in the leading edge pipe of the skeg "whew" its in . I am not going to run the Volvo MD7A diesel in the boat 1 and 2 cylinder diesels are just to ruff running for my liking that and the fact that volvo is nuts on there parts, I mean they should buy you dinner and give you a kiss when you buy them. Im back to the old atomic 4, good little engine, quiet, smooooth and 30 hp. Made solid mounts for it and the dry exhaust is in just need the weld on stainless elbows to run it down under water, did it the way Brent sugest the only thing I will do is put a water jacket around exhaust pipe at the inside transom, might help keep paint on if it would be less than 200 degree F . Next is the throtle and shift linkage, building it myself and I dont like cables, going with solid or pipe linkage, one handle per side of cockpit foot well , simple and nothing fancy but bullet proof. I came up with an idea for the engine compartment intake vents that wont hurt the water tight integrity of the boat if things get rough. On the lazerett between the hatch and mooring bits is put 2-1/2" pipe about 18" up threaded on top and sticking about 3" below deck so 3" vent hose can clamp to it, then on top use 2 sch 80 plastic elbows to form an upside down U and a third one under U facing forward , would keep rain and splashes out and if it got that bad unscrew them and screw on a plastic cap. Any ideas on this one? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13198|13196|2007-05-08 05:34:11|T & D Cain|Re: pickling paste on stainless|You would be well advised to be VERY careful in the handling and use of SS Pickling Pastes. Do a Google on Pickling Paste and review the MSDS for any of the range. Hydrofluoric acid is usually involved and is quite aggressive toward flesh and especially the eyes. The usual PPE (personal protective equipment) used in application is rubber gloves, full-face protection, rubber apron etc. etc.. That has the usual backside protecting elements for the companies concerned, but in this case, if you don't have the gear, make very sure of the goggles and a plentiful supply of water. If you are really serious about using this stuff, send me a direct e-mail and I shall send you some information about the way to use the gel.. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:03 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] pickling paste on stainless Hello all I finally found a industrial supply place that sells pickling paste for stainless steel so i bought a jug of it, they didnt know much about it as far as using it. The instructions on the jug are not to good says use pickling paste brush and brush it on. Any one have any advise how to use this stuff? and what is a pickling paste brush. Thanks for any advice Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13199|13189|2007-05-08 12:19:40|mark hamill|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Speaking of boats in fields, does anyone have a BS 26 or 31 I could look at in the Courtenay, Van Isle or lower mainland---As I get older, BD yesterday 57 years old--I am convinced less is more for me. Thanks Mark Hamill mhamill1@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Last year I sold a 1967 Dodge charger for $42,000.00 . If I add up > > > Was this a big-block or a Hemi? Did it go through Barrett Jackson? > | 13200|9840|2007-05-08 14:25:27|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|BS 26|"Im back to the old atomic 4, good little engine, quiet, smooooth and 30 hp." Why do you want a 30 hp engine in a 3 ton displacement hull? You will never be able to run at even half throttle. Choosing a propeller for such a strong angine is another subject. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13201|13189|2007-05-08 16:17:43|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I have a 31 in Comox, anchored just west of the marinas. Kim has a stretched version of the 26 at Newcastle Marina in Nanaimo, called "Puna" Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Speaking of boats in fields, does anyone have a BS 26 or 31 I could > look at in the Courtenay, Van Isle or lower mainland---As I get older, > BD yesterday 57 years old--I am convinced less is more for me. Thanks > Mark Hamill > mhamill1@... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > Last year I sold a 1967 Dodge charger for $42,000.00 . If I add up > > > > > > Was this a big-block or a Hemi? Did it go through Barrett Jackson? > > > | 13202|13171|2007-05-08 16:24:38|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum in Boats|Given the far greater probability of corrosion and much higher price, plus the weaker welds , steel boats are far better boats for offshore cruising than aluminium. You only have to screw up once with aluminiun and you have big problems. Steel is far more forgiving . Is there a flux core wire that enables one to weld aluminium with a mig without having to carry a gas bottle around? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Aluminum boats are not easy. I spent a year researching AL Boats before > buying one. I spent three years more understanding them. They are far > better than Fiberglass or Steel but they are different. > > They are far lighter than steel or fiberglass therefore their > performance is better. > They corrode less than steel and are less prone to damage than > fiberglass therefore with a little maintenance they will age better. > Cleanliness is an absolute with AL. You have to make sure your bilges > are clean. Not just pennys but dirt or wet wood will cause spot > corrosion. I sandblasted, Zinc-Chromated Painted and epoxy my bilges > therefore if something does sneak in the damage wont be that great. > Also, I left clean out opening in floor and will use to clean down > there on occasion. > > You can't use any Copper in your Bottom paint, there are some very good > paint that don't have CU but they are not cheap. > > You need to make sure you don't anchor over any iron or steel debris or > berth next to a steel hull. Or somewhere with bad power. I have a 300lb > isolation transformer, galvanic corrosion sensors, and solar panels and > don't connect to shore power much. > > Welding for repairs can be made with small setup like Readyweld that use > batteries and MIGs welds whatever your want. T But for Building any boat > you better have the right tool$ and equipment$ otherwise the time will > kill you $$$. > > Building a AL Boat or any boat requires $$$$. If you can afford it and > can keep an eye on it- AL is the best. > > As a friend of mine says, "There are two types of boats, broken ones and > the ones that are breaking" . He is a boat mechanic. > > Same applies to Steel, Fiberglass or Aluminum, - They just breakdown > differently > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13203|11985|2007-05-08 16:27:57|brentswain38|Re: Flame spray|Tilt the torch slightly away from the piece that you want to keep and toward the scrap, and all the slag goes onto the scrap, leaving little on the piece you want to keep. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Ted, > I "got" a real kick out of your explanation. In my steelwork > experience - as well as growing up with a metallurgical engineer for > a father - I'd never heard of "wobbe" until I read your post. I think > that the "layman's" way of describing the difference would be to > suggest that acetylene requires an equal amount of oxygen to burn a > neutral flame, whereas, propane requires 4.5 times the amount of > oxygen. > > I have very little experience with flame spraying, limited to > hardsurfacing lawnmower blades, but use propane for gas cutting in my > daily work. As you point out, one requires different tips for using > propane, at times, a different mixing chamber. > > I would have to disagree with you on the quality of the cut, however. > Though oxy-propane has a lower flame temperature and, therefore, a > slower start than oxy-acetylene, it produces a cleaner cut than > acetylene, with little or no resultant slag along the bottom edge of > the plate. > > When I first began working with oxy-propane, my co-workers would > berate me for using a #2 tip to cut steel of 3/16" to 5/8"(As you may > know, a #2 tip for oxy-acetylene is for cutting thicknesses of 3/4" > to 1 1/2") Many of my co-workers use a #4 tip with oxy-propane & I > carry several tips, from #1 to #4(#1 and #2 because I am stubborn). > > I'll be seeing Paul next week and will see if I can help with this > challenge. For now, however, I must go & google wobbe. Your input in > this group always prompts me to expand my mind. > Thanks buddy! > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Not really rocket science Mike, > > > > In the UK when they changed from town gas (coal gas) to North Sea > > (natural) gas, the Gas Board sent fitters to every house that used > gas > > and changed the burners on the stoves and heaters etc. The other > way of > > doing it is to try different pressure settings and jet sizes until > you > > get it burning OK and a similar amount of heat out of it. If you > are > > changing from acetylene to propane then I think you will probably > need > > a larger jet. One thing though; although you can gas axe with oxy > > propane it makes a bit of a pig's ear welding. It may not be a > clean > > enough fuel to flame spray. It might be worthwhile to call the > > manufacturers before spending too much time on it. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 13204|13189|2007-05-08 18:45:36|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! Youy should feel like a complete idiot by the time you've spent long hours doing the detail work that you could have bought already done for a few extra bucks. Labour that's been done is labour that you don't have to either do or pay for. Ditto material accumulated. Starting from a pile of scrap means that you will still have to pay the rent , and all other expenses while you are atempting to turn it into a boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Excellent advice, Tony. > > > > If someone in the Pacific Northwest(Canada, U.S.A.) were planning to > > build a 36 footer from Brent's stock plans, I have heard of at least > > two available in the Courtenay area of British Columbia. Having said > > that, I was reading the latest edition of the Boat Journal(local > > magazine) and saw a brokerage listing for an aluminum 36' hull & deck. > > The asking price is C$88,000.00! > > Joke. There's a Colvin Witch (PRUDENCE) in alumin for sale at less than half that price. > > > With so many complete, comparable boats - of various materials - on the > > market, one should not expect to make a profit on the construction and > > sale of one, especially when labour costs are considered. > > Exactly. It's basically irrelevant how much the thing has cost to date (including or > especially labour), until it's in the water, complete & sailing the relevant figure is how > much it'll cost to get it to that state. That's how I value unfinished 'project' boats. Usually > the owners have a different opinion which is their privelige. At least 2 I know of are still > rusting away in yards. > > Who would take seriously the notion that a ferrocement hull was worth a ton of money > because it was so labor-intensive to build? > > Unfinished metal hull is worth the scrap value of the material IMO. A bit more if the > welding is well done and it doesn't need sandblasting to get rid of the rust. I've turned > down a free hull because of extensive rust - deceased estate. At present I can buy a > complete, in the water, sailing 36' steel boat for approx $10K less than I could build one > the same displacement, the only reasons for building are that I like building things and I'll > get something done exactly how I want it done. > > PDW > | 13206|9840|2007-05-08 20:04:37|Tom|Re: BS 26|This one is setup with a 1 to 1 gearing. From what the experts say on these a 10" Dia. x 10" pitch is about right or around a 12"x8" . To me its a sailboat and I dont want the drag of a large prop and cruising along at 5-1/2 knots at half throttle around 12 hp cant be a bad thing ? So far I have a little over $600 in it and that was buying it, shipping, rings, gaskets, water pump impeller, and thermostat. The atomic 4 is smaller size wize than the volvo 13hp and 60 lbs lighter. I cant find any good reason to not run it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:BS 26 > "Im back to the old atomic 4, good little engine, quiet, smooooth and 30 > hp." > Why do you want a 30 hp engine in a 3 ton displacement hull? You will > never be able to run at even half throttle. Choosing a propeller for such > a strong angine is another subject. > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13207|13193|2007-05-08 21:20:14|Alex Christie|Hull for sale|Hi All, just to let anyone know, the bare hull is still available, I'm going to reduce it to $15,000 Cdn (Approximately $13,556 USD). I'm leaving for a trip to Chile in two days to experience winter all over again :p, and will be gone for one month, so anyone interested in the hull for sale, you've got 48 hours to deal on it, though you could still talk to my wife about it. I just won't be here to show it, but it is accessible in the field it is in at this time. Alex| 13208|13189|2007-05-08 21:33:55|Alex|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I'm not sure I follow your generalized statement, Tony: The cost of a pile of fresh steel went up only by around $1000 cdn in 2 years. I can't see what facts that the statement made in your post about raw materials costs going up 50% are based. Could you provide some concrete examples? My calculations show a maximum of a rise in 10% in materials costs. Your own labour costs of course do not change. While the cost of lead has gone up sharply, steel spiked and then went down a little to settle out slightly higher than what it was when I built my hull two years ago. The raw materials markets do not all march lock-step either, so while lead has gone up considerably, aluminum and steel have not. Respectfully, Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your > materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and > the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such > that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. > Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at > 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. Even > welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be > pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building > from zero. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your > materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and > the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such > that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. > Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at > 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. Even > welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be > pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building > from zero. > | 13209|13189|2007-05-08 23:18:19|Carl Anderson|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Alex, Check out the price of stainless (new or "scrap price") and tell me what you think. My purchases of stainless (at scrap price) has gone up by MORE that 50% and that is in 6 months time. Stainless welding rod has risen considerably in the 6 months I've been building too. Paint has recently gone up by 20% to 30% (some such as zinc primers has gone up more). There is a lot more to these boats than just the steel. Carl Alex wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow your generalized statement, Tony: The cost of a > pile of fresh steel went up only by around $1000 cdn in 2 years. I > can't see what facts that the statement made in your post about raw > materials costs going up 50% are based. Could you provide some > concrete examples? My calculations show a maximum of a rise in 10% in > materials costs. Your own labour costs of course do not change. > > While the cost of lead has gone up sharply, steel spiked and then went > down a little to settle out slightly higher than what it was when I > built my hull two years ago. The raw materials markets do not all > march lock-step either, so while lead has gone up considerably, > aluminum and steel have not. > > Respectfully, > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Tony Lester > wrote: > > > > Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your > > materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and > > the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such > > that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. > > Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at > > 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. > Even > > welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be > > pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building > > from zero. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Tony Lester > wrote: > > > > Advice to anyone looking to build a boat. Take a new look at your > > materials costs. I have been building boats for a number of years and > > the cost of all these materials right now here in South Florida is such > > that it is cheaper to buy a Hull with running gear and modify it. > > Seriously the raw materials (Aluminum, Steel or Resin) has gone up at > > 50% in the last 2 years and it doesn't look like it is coming down. > Even > > welding supplies have gone up. Any boat Steel, AL or Fiberglass can be > > pretty well cut in half and redone if needed alot cheaper than building > > from zero. > > > > | 13210|13189|2007-05-09 00:23:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't that what you claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both ways. As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once it's in the water and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current state, and that's the residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely irrelevant as it's essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are formed by dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on anything that still requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of love for $1 per hour for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I saw was $35K USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, dinghy, etc etc and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the material for the residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves people are crazy to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & profit. Can't see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't matter what it cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying a finished boat. Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. I've said all I have to say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was too expensive, I know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was probably value for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one sold but still took over a year before the right buyer came along. Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. Let's say the current raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. PDW| 13211|13189|2007-05-09 01:10:42|Alex Christie|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just cautioning that not accurate to say, as the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% including steel. Steel spiked then stabilized, probably making a tidy some for the steel distibutors at the top of the spike. My costs for stainless varied from $1.00 to $1.50 Cdn per lb (ABC, Campbell River) to jumping to $2.50 (Harpers) near the end, with a few $2.85/lb spots. Fortunately the boat is made mostly of mild steel with stainless detailing, not the other way around ;) A person could use some strategies such as using galvanized bulwark pipe for most of the boat except on those locations where wear is expected, like where you haul the dinghy up, and at corners. Brent has often mentioned it. Lifelines of galvanized work fine too, and cheap. I would have found it a downer to go to galvanized, but I was just being picky. Galvanzied does work, and the boat would sail just the same, regardless. You could avoid the need for using much stainless rod that way (I agree, the cost on ss rod is horrendous, but it is worth it where it is called for). I do wish I had bought lead back when it was 30 cents a pound! Does anyone have recent cost on this? Hasta la vista dudes -- and no fighting while I'm gone in Chile, because I don't know how often I'll make it to an internet cafe to put out flames, especially if I'm hiking around the Altiplano, Patagonia, or Tierra del Fuego. You're on your own while I struggle to cram on Spanish and mariscos. Btw don't be jealous --- I'm not heading to a tropical paradise, it's WINTER there now! I'm gonna get more of what I just finished up with here in terms of weather. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13212|13189|2007-05-09 08:45:06|Tom|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Hello Alex Scrap lead was up to 40 cents a pound US about two weeks ago when I called and that was wheel weights ( no bargan there). You aint kidding about the stainless vs galvanized pipe railings, If I would have used 316 stainless on the 26 it would have cost me more than all the steel to build the whole boat. The way I look at it I could cut it off and replace the galvanized several times for what it would cost to go with 316 stainless. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing >I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just cautioning that not >accurate to say, as the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% >including steel. Steel spiked then stabilized, probably making a tidy some >for the steel distibutors at the top of the spike. My costs for stainless >varied from $1.00 to $1.50 Cdn per lb (ABC, Campbell River) to jumping to >$2.50 (Harpers) near the end, with a few $2.85/lb spots. Fortunately the >boat is made mostly of mild steel with stainless detailing, not the other >way around ;) > > A person could use some strategies such as using galvanized bulwark pipe > for most of the boat except on those locations where wear is expected, > like where you haul the dinghy up, and at corners. Brent has often > mentioned it. Lifelines of galvanized work fine too, and cheap. I would > have found it a downer to go to galvanized, but I was just being picky. > Galvanzied does work, and the boat would sail just the same, regardless. > You could avoid the need for using much stainless rod that way (I agree, > the cost on ss rod is horrendous, but it is worth it where it is called > for). > > I do wish I had bought lead back when it was 30 cents a pound! Does > anyone have recent cost on this? > > Hasta la vista dudes -- and no fighting while I'm gone in Chile, because I > don't know how often I'll make it to an internet cafe to put out flames, > especially if I'm hiking around the Altiplano, Patagonia, or Tierra del > Fuego. You're on your own while I struggle to cram on Spanish and > mariscos. > > Btw don't be jealous --- I'm not heading to a tropical paradise, it's > WINTER there now! I'm gonna get more of what I just finished up with here > in terms of weather. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13213|13193|2007-05-09 08:57:59|Claude|Re: Hull for sale|Hi Alex. Do you have the lead poured in your boat's keeks? Claude > > Hi All, just to let anyone know, the bare hull is still available, > I'm going to reduce it to $15,000 Cdn. > > Alex > | 13214|13189|2007-05-09 14:35:23|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Tacking the bare shell together takes about 100 hours. Detailing another 100 hours, welding another 100 hours. Alex's hull only needs about 15 feet of welding. Steel has jumped considerably lately. Alex's hull, could be finished for under 40 K ,including the cost of what he's done. Then it could sell for 95 K if finished well. Go ahead , buy a load of scrap and hire somebody for $30 an hour to take it to the same point as Alex's boat and see if you could get it done for under 17K. Whoever buy's Alex's boat will be cruising long before you are finished grinding.It could be cruising befoe this summer's over. Being able to move aboard that much earlier , saving about $1,000 a month in rent payments also cuts ones expenses and saves a bundle, as well as getting ones ass out cruising sooner.Money can be replaced , time can't . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't that what you > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both ways. > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once it's in the water > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current state, and that's the > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely irrelevant as it's > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are formed by > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on anything that still > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of love for $1 per hour > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I saw was $35K > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, dinghy, etc etc > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the material for the > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves people are crazy > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & profit. Can't > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't matter what it > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying a finished boat. > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. I've said all I have to > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was too expensive, I > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was probably value > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one sold but still > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. Let's say the current > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > PDW > | 13215|13189|2007-05-09 14:36:44|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Lifelines could be changed anytime you get a deal on stainless, without burning any foam.Evan went stainless uprights and galv on top so he could change it without even burning paint. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Alex > Scrap lead was up to 40 cents a pound US about two weeks ago when I called > and that was wheel weights ( no bargan there). > You aint kidding about the stainless vs galvanized pipe railings, If I > would have used 316 stainless on the 26 it would have cost me more than all > the steel to build the whole boat. > The way I look at it I could cut it off and replace the galvanized several > times for what it would cost to go with 316 stainless. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:11 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > >I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just cautioning that not > >accurate to say, as the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > >including steel. Steel spiked then stabilized, probably making a tidy some > >for the steel distibutors at the top of the spike. My costs for stainless > >varied from $1.00 to $1.50 Cdn per lb (ABC, Campbell River) to jumping to > >$2.50 (Harpers) near the end, with a few $2.85/lb spots. Fortunately the > >boat is made mostly of mild steel with stainless detailing, not the other > >way around ;) > > > > A person could use some strategies such as using galvanized bulwark pipe > > for most of the boat except on those locations where wear is expected, > > like where you haul the dinghy up, and at corners. Brent has often > > mentioned it. Lifelines of galvanized work fine too, and cheap. I would > > have found it a downer to go to galvanized, but I was just being picky. > > Galvanzied does work, and the boat would sail just the same, regardless. > > You could avoid the need for using much stainless rod that way (I agree, > > the cost on ss rod is horrendous, but it is worth it where it is called > > for). > > > > I do wish I had bought lead back when it was 30 cents a pound! Does > > anyone have recent cost on this? > > > > Hasta la vista dudes -- and no fighting while I'm gone in Chile, because I > > don't know how often I'll make it to an internet cafe to put out flames, > > especially if I'm hiking around the Altiplano, Patagonia, or Tierra del > > Fuego. You're on your own while I struggle to cram on Spanish and > > mariscos. > > > > Btw don't be jealous --- I'm not heading to a tropical paradise, it's > > WINTER there now! I'm gonna get more of what I just finished up with here > > in terms of weather. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 13216|13193|2007-05-09 14:51:07|Alex Christie|Re: Hull for sale|The hull is bare, no lead in the keels. Alex On 9-May-07, at 5:56 AM, Claude wrote: > Hi Alex. Do you have the lead poured in your boat's keeks? > Claude > > > > > Hi All, just to let anyone know, the bare hull is still available, > > I'm going to reduce it to $15,000 Cdn. > > > > Alex > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13217|13189|2007-05-09 15:14:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at zero when valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of the gear aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first place, so he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at first, but surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling price of the boat. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" wrote: > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't that what you claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both ways. As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once it's in the water and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current state, and that's the residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely irrelevant as it's essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are formed by dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on anything that still requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of love for $1 per hour for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I saw was $35K USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, dinghy, etc etc and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the material for the residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves people are crazy to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & profit. Can't see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't matter what it cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying a finished boat. Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. I've said all I have to say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was too expensive, I know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was probably value for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one sold but still took over a year before the right buyer came along. Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. Let's say the current raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13218|13189|2007-05-09 18:03:34|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Try sailing a badly shaped hull and you will find out what really matters. I started my boat with $4,000 . By the time I moved aboard and started sailing i had $6,000 in her , making the hull 3/4 the price of the boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at zero when > valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of the gear > aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first place, so > he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at first, but > surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling price of > the boat. > > > > Greg > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't > that what you > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both > ways. > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once > it's in the water > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current > state, and that's the > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely > irrelevant as it's > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are > formed by > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on > anything that still > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of > love for $1 per hour > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I > saw was $35K > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, > dinghy, etc etc > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the > material for the > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves > people are crazy > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & > profit. Can't > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't > matter what it > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying > a finished boat. > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. > I've said all I have to > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was > too expensive, I > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was > probably value > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one > sold but still > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. > Let's say the current > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > PDW > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13219|13189|2007-05-09 18:12:37|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg Is that what you charge for a hull? Zero? How do you make a living that way? Volume? Is that what you value your time at when doing a new boat? Zero? Me too( your time, not mine). A friend was selling a Fraser 42 and the broker pointed to the gear ( radar, electronics, etc) and said "If you have a use for all that extra gear , take it with you, as it makes no difference to the price of a boat. A boat with a lot of gear looks cluttered, whereas a stripped one looks clean and is thus easier to sell." How much gear do you get with a new boat? Not much, Case in point. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at zero when > valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of the gear > aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first place, so > he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at first, but > surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling price of > the boat. > > > > Greg > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't > that what you > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both > ways. > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once > it's in the water > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current > state, and that's the > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely > irrelevant as it's > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are > formed by > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on > anything that still > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of > love for $1 per hour > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I > saw was $35K > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, > dinghy, etc etc > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the > material for the > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves > people are crazy > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & > profit. Can't > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't > matter what it > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying > a finished boat. > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. > I've said all I have to > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was > too expensive, I > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was > probably value > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one > sold but still > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. > Let's say the current > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > PDW > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13220|13189|2007-05-09 23:14:56|Aaron Williams|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Hey Can I get a free hull? How about a 40' Brent could you contact me direct about the plans for you 40' Aaron in Alaska brentswain38 wrote: Greg Is that what you charge for a hull? Zero? How do you make a living that way? Volume? Is that what you value your time at when doing a new boat? Zero? Me too( your time, not mine). A friend was selling a Fraser 42 and the broker pointed to the gear ( radar, electronics, etc) and said "If you have a use for all that extra gear , take it with you, as it makes no difference to the price of a boat. A boat with a lot of gear looks cluttered, whereas a stripped one looks clean and is thus easier to sell." How much gear do you get with a new boat? Not much, Case in point. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at zero when > valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of the gear > aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first place, so > he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at first, but > surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling price of > the boat. > > > > Greg > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 hours. Isn't > that what you > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have it both > ways. > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once > it's in the water > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current > state, and that's the > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely > irrelevant as it's > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my views are > formed by > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on > anything that still > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a labour of > love for $1 per hour > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to sale time. > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last price I > saw was $35K > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, rodes, > dinghy, etc etc > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the > material for the > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. Just proves > people are crazy > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling price & > profit. Can't > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. Doesn't > matter what it > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared with buying > a finished boat. > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. > I've said all I have to > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because it was > too expensive, I > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was > probably value > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. That one > sold but still > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. > Let's say the current > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > PDW > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13221|13196|2007-05-10 11:35:26|will jones|Re: pickling paste on stainless|Please follow this advice. Hydroflouric acid (HF) is very hazardous to tissue. It is more readily absorbed by tissue, unlike hydrochloric or sulfuric acids where you get more of a surficial layer by layer attack, not so with HF. HF gets into the pores quickly and continues to react with tissue even when water is immediately available. Very hazardous for eyes. Be aware of the properties of HF. Review online info on protection product materials. Use safety goggles. T & D Cain wrote: You would be well advised to be VERY careful in the handling and use of SS Pickling Pastes. Do a Google on Pickling Paste and review the MSDS for any of the range. Hydrofluoric acid is usually involved and is quite aggressive toward flesh and especially the eyes. The usual PPE (personal protective equipment) used in application is rubber gloves, full-face protection, rubber apron etc. etc.. That has the usual backside protecting elements for the companies concerned, but in this case, if you don't have the gear, make very sure of the goggles and a plentiful supply of water. If you are really serious about using this stuff, send me a direct e-mail and I shall send you some information about the way to use the gel.. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:03 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] pickling paste on stainless Hello all I finally found a industrial supply place that sells pickling paste for stainless steel so i bought a jug of it, they didnt know much about it as far as using it. The instructions on the jug are not to good says use pickling paste brush and brush it on. Any one have any advise how to use this stuff? and what is a pickling paste brush. Thanks for any advice Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13222|13189|2007-05-10 23:40:53|mickeyolaf|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Boats are like homes. There are shacks, cabins, houses and villas. It all depends on what we as individuals will accept. There are people satisfied with 400 sq ft and others need 4000. While one man will accept the absolute basics, another will have every bell and whistle. Neither is wrong. What is true is that the outfitted boat will not command a price that will retun the investment. The minimalistic one may. I wanted opening ports with screens, factory windows, name brand rigging, a large inverter, chartplotter, radar and on and on. I know I will never recover these costs if I ever sell. We don't have boats for the money they will make us. They are a very poor investment, don't appreciate and are very costly to insure, maintain, and moor. What's the saying? "If it isn't real estate rent it". I get a kick out of boat owners (and builders). They are like horse owners. Everyone of them has a better idea and the other guy is wrong. All that really matters is that we are happy with the boat we bought/built. Despite all of the arguing on this site we all have something in common. I'll bet 99% of us own our boats as opposed to the banks owning them. Most of the yachts out there are financed. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Try sailing a badly shaped hull and you will find out what really matters. > I started my boat with $4,000 . By the time I moved aboard and > started sailing i had $6,000 in her , making the hull 3/4 the price of > the boat. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at > zero when > > valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of the gear > > aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first > place, so > > he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at first, but > > surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling > price of > > the boat. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 > hours. Isn't > > that what you > > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have > it both > > ways. > > > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for once > > it's in the water > > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its current > > state, and that's the > > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely > > irrelevant as it's > > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my > views are > > formed by > > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium on > > anything that still > > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a > labour of > > love for $1 per hour > > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to > sale time. > > > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last > price I > > saw was $35K > > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, > rodes, > > dinghy, etc etc > > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy the > > material for the > > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. > Just proves > > people are crazy > > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling > price & > > profit. Can't > > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. > Doesn't > > matter what it > > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared > with buying > > a finished boat. > > > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own logic. > > I've said all I have to > > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because > it was > > too expensive, I > > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that was > > probably value > > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. > That one > > sold but still > > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel hull. > > Let's say the current > > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13223|13223|2007-05-11 22:39:29|Aaron|BS36' Steel order|Brent I was realy trying to convince myself to go for the 40' and finaly just gave up. I took the plung and ordered the steel for a BS36. I have been collecting SS and lead for the last 12 months. The steel prices are up .03 cents a pound and SS has gone back up almost .15 cents a pound not counting shipping cost to Alaska. I did order wheel abradded and with Devo 302 primer. The cost of having that done in advance is 1/3 the cost of trying to get the blast media and the time for me to do it myself. I will be able to do the clean up and primer as I go. If the wheel abrade ends up with a poor finish then at least the mill scale will be gone and reblasting should be a lot faster. As for the value of a hull the only ones that care are those who are buying and selling. Those who build or want to build can be put off for the cost of materials, But even those whith the true desire will prevail as Gerd put it so well. Aaron in Alaska| 13224|13224|2007-05-12 13:54:35|brentswain38|Stolen dinghy|The aluminium origami dinghy in the photos section was stolen thursday night, in Comox BC. They cut the chain or the lock, a determined effort.If you find it , stash it in a safe place , then call me or the cops. If possible get a description of the person who is using it, boat name , and any other details, photos if possible. Keep an eye out for it in scrapyards. They are stealing live copper wires here for scrap given the high price of scrap. Some have been fried that way. It's still very unique, and recognisable . Few others have been built. No one can use it without it being recognised. Thanks Brent| 13225|13223|2007-05-12 13:57:29|brentswain38|Re: BS36' Steel order|Keep up the primer during the building proccess. A second coat once the shell is together is a good idea and a wise investment. You can just as easily do detail welding thru a second or third coat. Don't lose it like Alex and many others have done. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent > > I was realy trying to convince myself to go for the 40' and finaly > just > gave up. I took the plung and ordered the steel for a BS36. > I have been collecting SS and lead for the last 12 months. > The steel prices are up .03 cents a pound and SS has gone back up > almost .15 cents a pound not counting shipping cost to Alaska. > I did order wheel abradded and with Devo 302 primer. > The cost of having that done in advance is 1/3 the cost of trying to > get the blast media and the time for me to do it myself. I will be > able > to do the clean up and primer as I go. If the wheel abrade ends up > with > a poor finish then at least the mill scale will be gone and > reblasting > should be a lot faster. > > As for the value of a hull the only ones that care are those who are > buying and selling. Those who build or want to build can be put off > for > the cost of materials, But even those whith the true desire will > prevail as Gerd put it so well. > > Aaron in Alaska > | 13226|13189|2007-05-12 14:01:02|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I met a couple in Mexcico in 1988 whom I had built a 31 for in 1983. They said " The boat is free. What we have saved living aboard and travelling, over what we would have spent on rent, travel etc. if we didn't have the boat , is many times what we have spent on the boat, The boat owes us nothing.We could park it on a beach and walk away and we'd still be a lot of money ahead of where we would be if we hadn't built the boat. This is very much the case with me. instead of semi retirement in my mid 20's without a boat I'd have spent that time working full time just to meet expenses. Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Boats are like homes. There are shacks, cabins, houses and villas. It > all depends on what we as individuals will accept. There are people > satisfied with 400 sq ft and others need 4000. While one man will > accept the absolute basics, another will have every bell and whistle. > Neither is wrong. > What is true is that the outfitted boat will not command a price that > will retun the investment. The minimalistic one may. > I wanted opening ports with screens, factory windows, name brand > rigging, a large inverter, chartplotter, radar and on and on. I know > I will never recover these costs if I ever sell. > We don't have boats for the money they will make us. They are a very > poor investment, don't appreciate and are very costly to insure, > maintain, and moor. What's the saying? "If it isn't real estate rent > it". > I get a kick out of boat owners (and builders). They are like horse > owners. Everyone of them has a better idea and the other guy is wrong. > All that really matters is that we are happy with the boat we > bought/built. > Despite all of the arguing on this site we all have something in > common. I'll bet 99% of us own our boats as opposed to the banks > owning them. Most of the yachts out there are financed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Try sailing a badly shaped hull and you will find out what really > matters. > > I started my boat with $4,000 . By the time I moved aboard and > > started sailing i had $6,000 in her , making the hull 3/4 the price > of > > the boat. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > A successful builder I sailed with in Asia always costed a hull at > > zero when > > > valuing boats. He judged the boat was only worth the value of > the gear > > > aboard, the hull was what suckered you into the deal in the first > > place, so > > > he didn't want to pay for it twice. I rejected this idea at > first, but > > > surprisingly his estimates were usually spot on the actual selling > > price of > > > the boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:23 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats > Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the > metal is > > > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the > scrapyard > > > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , > compared to > > > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has > to > > > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > > > > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 > > hours. Isn't > > > that what you > > > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have > > it both > > > ways. > > > > > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell > for once > > > it's in the water > > > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its > current > > > state, and that's the > > > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is > completely > > > irrelevant as it's > > > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my > > views are > > > formed by > > > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no > premium on > > > anything that still > > > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a > > labour of > > > love for $1 per hour > > > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to > > sale time. > > > > > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last > > price I > > > saw was $35K > > > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, > anchors, > > rodes, > > > dinghy, etc etc > > > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy > the > > > material for the > > > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. > > Just proves > > > people are crazy > > > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > > > > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between > selling > > price & > > > profit. Can't > > > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare > hull. > > Doesn't > > > matter what it > > > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared > > with buying > > > a finished boat. > > > > > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own > logic. > > > I've said all I have to > > > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull > because > > it was > > > too expensive, I > > > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one > that was > > > probably value > > > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. > > That one > > > sold but still > > > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > > > > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built > steel hull. > > > Let's say the current > > > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13227|13223|2007-05-12 17:34:21|brentswain38|Re: BS36' Steel order|Wise decision The 40 is huge . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent > > I was realy trying to convince myself to go for the 40' and finaly > just > gave up. I took the plung and ordered the steel for a BS36. > I have been collecting SS and lead for the last 12 months. > The steel prices are up .03 cents a pound and SS has gone back up > almost .15 cents a pound not counting shipping cost to Alaska. > I did order wheel abradded and with Devo 302 primer. > The cost of having that done in advance is 1/3 the cost of trying to > get the blast media and the time for me to do it myself. I will be > able > to do the clean up and primer as I go. If the wheel abrade ends up > with > a poor finish then at least the mill scale will be gone and > reblasting > should be a lot faster. > > As for the value of a hull the only ones that care are those who are > buying and selling. Those who build or want to build can be put off > for > the cost of materials, But even those whith the true desire will > prevail as Gerd put it so well. > > Aaron in Alaska > | 13228|13189|2007-05-13 11:40:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I doubled my money & had a helluva good time with a little 2 tonner I bought years ago. Then I bought a 12 tonner & completely rebuilt her. What a joke, took a bath. Lesson learned? ANY chattel is worth ONLY what another man will pay for it. Period. What if the Chinese pull the plug on the yanks & their economy implodes tomorrow? What's your beloved boat worth then? What if you have a mortguage as well & other commitments, perhaps a family? You would be delighted to take anything you could get. You can't eat a boat.. well you could try but the conversation from the wife may not be "please pass the ketchup" Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 13229|8182|2007-05-13 22:34:07|Gary|Stuffing Box|Brent... We talked a while ago about dripless stuffing box by applying grease through a nipple fitting on the stuffing box. Should the stuffing be taken out first? Thanks Gary| 13230|13189|2007-05-13 22:53:10|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I've spent the last couple of weekends used boat shopping for a modest- sized center console or walk around type fiberglass power boat. (I'd rather have a steel ocean cruising sailboat but the realities of life dictate that I look for something more modest.) A common ailment among power boats that are more than 10 years old is a leaking aluminum gas tank. Most of the boats I've seen were built with large removable access panels in the decks above the tanks. It is a fairly standard operation for the used boat dealers to replace the original aluminum tanks with polyethylene tanks. Theoretically, the decks are watertight and any water that finds its way to the bilge should be taken care of by the bilge pump, yet it is very common for aluminum tanks to develop leaks due to corrosion. There is suspicion that ethanol mixed in the gasoline is partly responsible for the corrosion problems with the tanks. Many power boat manufacturers are now using polyethylene tanks instead of aluminum.| 13231|13189|2007-05-13 23:23:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 02:51:19AM -0000, Greg & Christine Vassilakos wrote: > I've spent the last couple of weekends used boat shopping for a modest- > sized center console or walk around type fiberglass power boat. (I'd > rather have a steel ocean cruising sailboat but the realities of life > dictate that I look for something more modest.) A common ailment among > power boats that are more than 10 years old is a leaking aluminum gas > tank. Most of the boats I've seen were built with large removable > access panels in the decks above the tanks. It is a fairly standard > operation for the used boat dealers to replace the original aluminum > tanks with polyethylene tanks. Theoretically, the decks are watertight > and any water that finds its way to the bilge should be taken care of > by the bilge pump, yet it is very common for aluminum tanks to develop > leaks due to corrosion. There is suspicion that ethanol mixed in the > gasoline is partly responsible for the corrosion problems with the > tanks. Many power boat manufacturers are now using polyethylene tanks > instead of aluminum. To whatever degree the ethanol affects aluminium, I seriously doubt that it's a major factor; unprotected aluminium around salt water turns to white, powdery muck in a very short time. Polished aluminium seems to last a good bit longer, but one scratch, and that protection goes away. The aluminium that is generally used for the tanks in production boats is cheap, rough, and paper-thin - which accounts for the results you're hearing about. I did discover (purely by accident) a rather interesting method of protecting aluminium that had already started corroding, especially if the whole surface was involved: 1) Wire-brush the surface until you've removed as much of the white powder/oxide as possible. 2) Soak the whole surface with WD-40; respray any spots that soak it up until the whole thing is wet and stays wet. 3) Repeat step 2 an hour later, then day later, then again about three days later. The trick seems to depend on the previous corrosion, which provides the finely-pitted surface for the WD-40 to soak into. The main mast winch plates on my previous boat were in really bad shape when I first got it; after this treatment, they showed zero deterioration or oxidation for the next five years (until I sold the boat.) Considering that I was doing a lot of active sailing in the Caribbean during that period, I'd call that a pretty good test. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13232|13232|2007-05-13 23:38:03|Aaron|Longitudal Stiffeners|Anyone If I predrilled the 1x1 angle on 24" centers and aligned them while welded them down. would they still be aligned after pulling the hull into shape. Seamed like a time saver for finishing the interior. Aaron| 13233|8182|2007-05-14 14:56:20|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|Gary No need to do that. I have the neccesaary taps. I'm in Comox at the moment . Where are you? I could do it in a few minutes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Brent... We talked a while ago about dripless stuffing box by applying > grease through a nipple fitting on the stuffing box. Should the > stuffing be taken out first? > > Thanks > Gary > | 13234|13189|2007-05-14 14:59:22|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|If you have a boat and the economy implodes , you still have a home and can leave to anywhere tomorrow. Can't get more security than that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > I doubled my money & had a helluva good time with a > little 2 tonner I bought years ago. > > Then I bought a 12 tonner & completely rebuilt her. > What a joke, took a bath. > > Lesson learned? ANY chattel is worth ONLY what another > man will pay for it. Period. > > What if the Chinese pull the plug on the yanks & their > economy implodes tomorrow? What's your beloved boat > worth then? What if you have a mortguage as well & > other commitments, perhaps a family? You would be > delighted to take anything you could get. You can't > eat a boat.. well you could try but the conversation > from the wife may not be "please pass the ketchup" > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 13235|13235|2007-05-14 19:11:28|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|I will offer my apologies in advance to all those who considers this subject off-topic for this forum. The following is a position statement from the National Marine Manufacturers Association on the use of ethanol in gasoline for boats: ==================================================================== The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and supported by many well documented studies. According to state boating registrations, there are over 12 million recreational boats in the United States. Boat builders utilize five types of materials to fabricate fuel tanks. These are aluminum, steel, cross-link polyethylene, high density polyethylene and fiberglass. For a rough estimate of today's numbers, there are approximately four million boats that have aluminum fuel tanks; approximately seven million have steel or polyethylene tanks, and less than one million have fiberglass tanks. The data clearly indicates that the increased use of ethanol in gasoline has raised safety and durability issues for aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks. Aluminum Fuel Tanks In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased. There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late. . The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank. Fiberglass Fuel Tanks NMMA is in the early stage of evaluating the effects that ethanol in gasoline has on fiberglass tanks. Boat U.S., the boater advocacy association, recently issue a consumer alert reporting that owners of older yachts have experienced leaking fiberglass fuel tanks. There have also been reports of heavy black deposits on the intake valves of marine engines resulting in bent push rods, pistons and valves. Some of the preliminary analysis conducted by an independent lab found the deposits to be di-iso octyl phalate, a chemical found in the resin, gel coat and filler used to make fiberglass fuel tanks. An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank the very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin where they dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in solution they are able to pass through the fuel line filters. These phalates have exceptionally high temperature stability and remain intact when the fuel evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only partial decomposition in the combustion chamber thus creating the heavy black deposits on the engine's intake valves. Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in fuel has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved phalates. The theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we know that ethanol dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently being conducted. Conclusion As stated in the opening paragraph, the NMMA has serious safety and durability concerns with the incremental increase in ethanol content in gasoline motor fuel. The majority of marine engines in use today are open loop systems that are designed, engineered and calibrated at the factory to operate with fuel containing either 10% MTBE or ethanol. Changing the fuel that these engines were designed, engineered and calibrated for will negatively effect drivability, exhaust and evaporative emissions, and potentially damage the components. While these issues are significant, the boaters have a far more serious issue. The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the ethanol content is increased to 20%. That is not an emissions issue; it is not a drivability or durability issue. It is an issue that needs to be taken far more seriously. It is a threat to the health and safety of the boaters in your state.| 13236|13189|2007-05-15 01:20:44|peter_d_wiley|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Hmmm. I have 3.5 acres of good land which produces more fruit & vegetables than I can eat, and I can grow a lot more. It's bayfront land where I can fish any time I like, for free. I have a well insulated house which I personally built, and which will last 30+ years even with minimal maintenance. I have solar power as well as mains power, wood heating as well as electric. If I cut off my phone and mains power my outgoings are less than $1K pa for property taxes. Even with power and phone service my outgoings are in the order of $3K pa at the moment. No mortgage, I own it outright. You might be able to catch fish from a boat, and you can relocate with a boat, but you sure can't supply even most of your food needs with a boat. The boat is going to deteriorate a lot faster than a shoreside dwelling even with good maintenance (costing money) and a *hell* of a lot faster without. A boat is a lot of good things, but better security than a productive piece of land? I don't think so. If all you have is a rented apartment somewhere, sure, the boat is a better choice in an economic collapse. But I have way more security than a boat. Of course I live in a nice, politically stable place, too. If one lives in some unstable shithole, a boat makes a lot of sense. Not the category I'd put Canada into, tho. Parts of the USA OTOH.... PDW > If you have a boat and the economy implodes , you still have a home > and can leave to anywhere tomorrow. Can't get more security than that. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > I doubled my money & had a helluva good time with a > > little 2 tonner I bought years ago. > > > > Then I bought a 12 tonner & completely rebuilt her. > > What a joke, took a bath. > > > > Lesson learned? ANY chattel is worth ONLY what another > > man will pay for it. Period. > > > > What if the Chinese pull the plug on the yanks & their > > economy implodes tomorrow? What's your beloved boat > > worth then? What if you have a mortguage as well & > > other commitments, perhaps a family? You would be > > delighted to take anything you could get. You can't > > eat a boat.. well you could try but the conversation > > from the wife may not be "please pass the ketchup" > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > | 13237|13235|2007-05-15 12:12:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 11:10:33PM -0000, Greg & Christine Vassilakos wrote: > I will offer my apologies in advance to all those who considers this > subject off-topic for this forum. The following is a position > statement from the National Marine Manufacturers Association on the > use of ethanol in gasoline for boats: > > ==================================================================== > > The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems > > The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use > of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by > volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and > supported by many well documented studies. Please note the term "opposes". This is simply NMMA's statement of their legal position; not something that currently destroys fuel tanks but something that, according to them, _would_ do so if implemented. The reason they're making this statement is that several states have signed a law which requires that gasoline sold after a certain date (e.g., 2008 for Missouri) contain 10 percent ethanol. Also note that the NMMA warning is for fuels with *greater* than 10% ethanol. I would also like to note that the NMMA's legal position is *not* aligned with the best interests of boaters; it is, in fact, usually the opposite. In this case, they're scrambling to prevent lawsuits against their members - not protect the end users. Fuels that are high in ethanol are certainly in _our_ interests - since they cost less, burn cleaner, and decrease our dependence on the Middle East. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13238|13235|2007-05-15 12:14:01|Michael Casling|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|I do not know enough to be able to say whether I think the info is correct or not. But I do recall what they said about the effect of unleaded gas in boats. The concern then was with fuel tanks, rubber hoses, fuel pumps and carburetors, and valve seats. None of the stuff they warned us about happened. So I am sceptical. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" wrote: > > I will offer my apologies in advance to all those who considers this > subject off-topic for this forum. The following is a position > statement from the National Marine Manufacturers Association on the > use of ethanol in gasoline for boats: > | 13239|13235|2007-05-15 12:32:01|J Fisher|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|I would disagree with some of those statements. Ethanol has a significantly lower energy content so you have to burn a more for the same amount of HP output. With E85 it is about a 30% increase in fuel consumption. So on a boat you will need to hold another 30% of fuel to get the same range as straight gas. They also have to cost a lot less to actually save you $$. Right now E-85 is cheaper, but not 30% cheaper so using it will cost more per mile than regular gas. Personally I think the whole ethanol industry in the US is purely political pork and has no net effect on emissions once you figure in the amount of energy consumed to make the fuel. Regarding the corrosive effect of alcohol on aluminum, the only experience I have is with methanol. In high concentrations it does attack aluminum and most of the people I know who use it have to use anodized carbs or drain and refill with straight gas after use to prevent damage. John -------Original Message------- From: Ben Okopnik Date: 5/15/2007 9:12:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks Fuels that are high in Ethanol are certainly in _our_ interests - since they cost less, burn cleaner, and decrease our dependence on the Middle East. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13240|13235|2007-05-15 16:51:56|khooper_fboats|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|Okay, this does not even make sense: > There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are > a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs > water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in > the fuel tank. Why does that follow? Virtually all fuel tanks have some measure of water, some have a lot. Mostly it gets there through condensation, from air inside the tank, because of changes in ambient temperature. It generally sits in the bottom of the tank along with dirt, leaves, rust and and various other things that are found in fuel tanks. Once I found a dessicated mouse inside the gas tank of a Volkswagen. Who knows how it got there... Alcohol does disperse water well (it is the operative ingredient in "fuel dryers"), and water does corrode aluminum, but why would water evenly dispersed in the tank cause *more* corrosion than water sitting in the bottom of the tank? And why would the presence of alcohol somehow cause additional water to precipitate inside the tank? I do not understand. > Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also > causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, > and damage engine components. Water does not "cause particles to clog filters" and there is no reason to believe there is more water, or corrosion, in tanks with 10% ethanol fuel. Arguably there would be less, as the water would not pool in the bottom of the tank, it would make its way into the engine, and this is harmless if the water is dispersed. Ethanol does not attack aluminum either. > The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of > ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline > fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and > water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to > aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur > within the aluminum fuel tank. It will if the aluminum fuel tank has, say, a steel rudder post inside it. But the only metal inside an aluminum tank is generally...aluminum. An aluminum tank with a more noble metal bit inside it has a bigger problem than ethanol. Water is a sufficient electrolyte by itself and water is always present. The tank will have a hole in it before long because of the water, not the ethanol. > Fiberglass Fuel Tanks > An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank > the very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin > where they dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in > solution they are able to pass through the fuel line filters. These > phalates have exceptionally high temperature stability and remain > intact when the fuel evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only > partial decomposition in the combustion chamber thus creating the > heavy black deposits on the engine's intake valves. They don't know what is happening and they don't know why it happens so they have taken a position based on a manufactured theory and issued a white paper stating this. I don't know what phalates are but if they are "in solution" and have "exceptionally high temperature stability" then we would expect them to blow right out the tailpipe, not cause symptoms which sound exactly like carbon buildup in old engines in old boats with gasoline inboards that are raw water cooled and run notoriously cold. That causes "heavy black deposits on the intake valves". > Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in > fuel has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved > phalates. The theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we > know that ethanol dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently > being conducted. I think these people are talking out of their rear ends. Sorry for the rant, it is boring here at work. =^ ) Ken| 13241|13241|2007-05-15 17:02:47|rcjoyner|how do you create plans?|If I see a boat I would like to re-create in orgami metal - How does one go about creating a set of plans to layout and cut the steel?? Is there a book on the subject??| 13242|13189|2007-05-15 17:57:33|greg elliott|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Depends on the alloy. I used 5086 from a Naval yard in Fiji for my self-steering without any hint of corrosion after 15 years. It is in direct contact with SS parts, all of which move. Even the surfaces where the alloy serves as a bearing for the SS are fine. Before using the 5086, I used a piece of unknown aluminum from the scrap heap in Hawaii, and it turned to dust and failed within 6 months. The same is true of SS. There are many diferent alloys, some work in the salt, others do not. Lots of 400 series SS shows up as scrap from the food industry. When you buy on the scrap heap, you may be getting a bargain, or you may be buying a problem. Greg > it's a major factor; unprotected aluminium around salt water turns to > white, powdery muck in a very short time. Polished aluminium seems to > last a good bit longer, but one scratch, and that protection goes away. > The aluminium that is generally used for the tanks in production boats > is cheap, rough, and paper-thin - which accounts for the results you're > hearing about. > | 13243|13232|2007-05-15 17:57:33|greg elliott|Re: Longitudal Stiffeners|No, they are not straight lines. We pre-calculate the location of the bulkheads, floors, tanks, etc. on our boats. When laid out on the flat patterns, these form complex curves. This makes sense when you consider that the edges of the bulkheads, floors, tanks, etc. are curves that lie in planes, but the hull itself is not at right angles to these planes, except at very few places down the length of the hull. As a result, it is next to impossible to pre-calculate the interiors on the hull patterns unless you use computer. This is one of the main disadvantages of origami. A lack of pre-positioned reference points from which to locate the interiors while building. As a result, origami boats may need to assemble the interiors twice - once to locate the hard points. And then a second time after the hard points have been welded in. Brent noted this in an earlier posting. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Anyone > > If I predrilled the 1x1 angle on 24" centers and aligned them while > welded them down. would they still be aligned after pulling the hull > into shape. Seamed like a time saver for finishing the interior. > > Aaron > | 13244|13189|2007-05-15 17:59:05|greg elliott|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|As I recall, Alex took a year or more from steel on the ground to this point. Probably a lot more considering the planning beforehand. This suggests a lot more than 300 hours total into the project. Considering materials, tools, hired labor, food and beer for free labor, fuel, insurance, wear and tear on the car, rent, etc. I expect he is already into the project for what he is asking. The hull has not sold. Quite possibly he will sell at a loss, or not at all, and need to pay storage. Alex is by no means inexperienced, nor is his story unique. Having reached this point he faces the question that many builders face: do I continue to pour money into the project, knowing that I may well be working years for $0, or even at a loss. Finishing the boat, to anything approaching "factory" quality takes significantly more time and $$ than building the hull. Most experienced builders know this, and value the hull accordingly. It is difficult for most amateur builders to make a profit, because everything they buy is at "retail" pricing. Yes, some people have flashed up a hull and rough interior, outfitted the boat with parts salvaged from other boats, and built a boat on the cheap. In doing so they have most often counted their time as worth zero, and the salvaged parts as worth zero, to arrive at an artificial cost for the completed boat. There are many reasons to build. Cost is not one of them. Apples to apples it is very difficult to build for the cost of buying, unless you count your time as zero. This can clearly been seen here. You can buy Alex's hull for about what it would cost to build, and save yourself hundreds if not thousands of hours. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tacking the bare shell together takes about 100 hours. Detailing > another 100 hours, welding another 100 hours. Alex's hull only needs > about 15 feet of welding. Steel has jumped considerably lately. Alex's > hull, could be finished for under 40 K ,including the cost of what > he's done. Then it could sell for 95 K if finished well. Go ahead , > buy a load of scrap and hire somebody for $30 an hour to take it to > the same point as Alex's boat and see if you could get it done for > under 17K. Whoever buy's Alex's boat will be cruising long before you > are finished grinding.It could be cruising befoe this summer's over. > Being able to move aboard that much earlier , saving about $1,000 a > month in rent payments also cuts ones expenses and saves a bundle, as > well as getting ones ass out cruising sooner.Money can be replaced , > time can't . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the metal is > > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the scrapyard > > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , compared to > > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has to > > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 > hours. Isn't that what you > > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't have > it both ways. > > > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell for > once it's in the water > > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its > current state, and that's the > > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is completely > irrelevant as it's > > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my > views are formed by > > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no premium > on anything that still > > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a > labour of love for $1 per hour > > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to > sale time. > > > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, last > price I saw was $35K > > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, anchors, > rodes, dinghy, etc etc > > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy > the material for the > > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. > Just proves people are crazy > > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between selling > price & profit. Can't > > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare hull. > Doesn't matter what it > > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared > with buying a finished boat. > > > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own > logic. I've said all I have to > > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull because > it was too expensive, I > > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one that > was probably value > > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & sails. > That one sold but still > > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built steel > hull. Let's say the current > > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > > > PDW > > > | 13245|13189|2007-05-15 18:00:25|greg elliott|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics or law. Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless someone plants them. Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. Canned food in large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Hmmm. I have 3.5 acres of good land which produces more fruit & vegetables than I can > eat, and I can grow a lot more. It's bayfront land where I can fish any time I like, for free. I > have a well insulated house which I personally built, and which will last 30+ years even > with minimal maintenance. I have solar power as well as mains power, wood heating as > well as electric. If I cut off my phone and mains power my outgoings are less than $1K pa > for property taxes. Even with power and phone service my outgoings are in the order of > $3K pa at the moment. No mortgage, I own it outright. > > You might be able to catch fish from a boat, and you can relocate with a boat, but you > sure can't supply even most of your food needs with a boat. The boat is going to > deteriorate a lot faster than a shoreside dwelling even with good maintenance (costing > money) and a *hell* of a lot faster without. A boat is a lot of good things, but better > security than a productive piece of land? I don't think so. > > If all you have is a rented apartment somewhere, sure, the boat is a better choice in an > economic collapse. But I have way more security than a boat. Of course I live in a nice, > politically stable place, too. If one lives in some unstable shithole, a boat makes a lot of > sense. Not the category I'd put Canada into, tho. Parts of the USA OTOH.... > > PDW > > > If you have a boat and the economy implodes , you still have a home > > and can leave to anywhere tomorrow. Can't get more security than that. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > I doubled my money & had a helluva good time with a > > > little 2 tonner I bought years ago. > > > > > > Then I bought a 12 tonner & completely rebuilt her. > > > What a joke, took a bath. > > > > > > Lesson learned? ANY chattel is worth ONLY what another > > > man will pay for it. Period. > > > > > > What if the Chinese pull the plug on the yanks & their > > > economy implodes tomorrow? What's your beloved boat > > > worth then? What if you have a mortguage as well & > > > other commitments, perhaps a family? You would be > > > delighted to take anything you could get. You can't > > > eat a boat.. well you could try but the conversation > > > from the wife may not be "please pass the ketchup" > > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > | 13246|13189|2007-05-15 18:01:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|http://www.cafelocale.com/discus/messages/25/49160.html?1168389790 The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and supported by many well documented studies. According to state boating registrations, there are over 12 million recreational boats in the United States. Boat builders utilize five types of materials to fabricate fuel tanks. These are aluminum, steel, cross-link polyethylene, high density polyethylene and fiberglass. For a rough estimate of today's numbers, there are approximately four million boats that have aluminum fuel tanks; approximately seven million have steel or polyethylene tanks, and less than one million have fiberglass tanks. The data clearly indicates that the increased use of ethanol in gasoline has raised safety and durability issues for aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks. Aluminum Fuel Tanks In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased. There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late. . The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank. Fiberglass Fuel Tanks NMMA is in the early stage of evaluating the effects that ethanol in gasoline has on fiberglass tanks. Boat U.S., the boater advocacy association, recently issue a consumer alert reporting that owners of older yachts have experienced leaking fiberglass fuel tanks. There have also been reports of heavy black deposits on the intake valves of marine engines resulting in bent push rods, pistons and valves. Some of the preliminary analysis conducted by an independent lab found the deposits to be di-iso octyl phalate, a chemical found in the resin, gel coat and filler used to make fiberglass fuel tanks. An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank the very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin where they dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in solution they are able to pass through the fuel line filters. These phalates have exceptionally high temperature stability and remain intact when the fuel evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only partial decomposition in the combustion chamber thus creating the heavy black deposits on the engine's intake valves. Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in fuel has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved phalates. The theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we know that ethanol dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently being conducted. Conclusion As stated in the opening paragraph, the NMMA has serious safety and durability concerns with the incremental increase in ethanol content in gasoline motor fuel. The majority of marine engines in use today are open loop systems that are designed, engineered and calibrated at the factory to operate with fuel containing either 10% MTBE or ethanol. Changing the fuel that these engines were designed, engineered and calibrated for will negatively effect drivability, exhaust and evaporative emissions, and potentially damage the components. While these issues are significant, the boaters have a far more serious issue. The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the ethanol content is increased to 20%. That is not an emissions issue; it is not a drivability or durability issue. It is an issue that needs to be taken far more seriously. It is a threat to the health and safety of the boaters in your state. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:24 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 02:51:19AM -0000, Greg & Christine Vassilakos wrote: > I've spent the last couple of weekends used boat shopping for a modest- > sized center console or walk around type fiberglass power boat. (I'd > rather have a steel ocean cruising sailboat but the realities of life > dictate that I look for something more modest.) A common ailment among > power boats that are more than 10 years old is a leaking aluminum gas > tank. Most of the boats I've seen were built with large removable > access panels in the decks above the tanks. It is a fairly standard > operation for the used boat dealers to replace the original aluminum > tanks with polyethylene tanks. Theoretically, the decks are watertight > and any water that finds its way to the bilge should be taken care of > by the bilge pump, yet it is very common for aluminum tanks to develop > leaks due to corrosion. There is suspicion that ethanol mixed in the > gasoline is partly responsible for the corrosion problems with the > tanks. Many power boat manufacturers are now using polyethylene tanks > instead of aluminum. To whatever degree the ethanol affects aluminium, I seriously doubt that it's a major factor; unprotected aluminium around salt water turns to white, powdery muck in a very short time. Polished aluminium seems to last a good bit longer, but one scratch, and that protection goes away. The aluminium that is generally used for the tanks in production boats is cheap, rough, and paper-thin - which accounts for the results you're hearing about. I did discover (purely by accident) a rather interesting method of protecting aluminium that had already started corroding, especially if the whole surface was involved: 1) Wire-brush the surface until you've removed as much of the white powder/oxide as possible. 2) Soak the whole surface with WD-40; respray any spots that soak it up until the whole thing is wet and stays wet. 3) Repeat step 2 an hour later, then day later, then again about three days later. The trick seems to depend on the previous corrosion, which provides the finely-pitted surface for the WD-40 to soak into. The main mast winch plates on my previous boat were in really bad shape when I first got it; after this treatment, they showed zero deterioration or oxidation for the next five years (until I sold the boat.) Considering that I was doing a lot of active sailing in the Caribbean during that period, I'd call that a pretty good test. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13247|13235|2007-05-15 18:42:45|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|I appreciate that there is a lot of skepticism concerning the position of the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) that ethanol in fuel is at least partly responsible for corrosion damage to aluminum fuel tanks. I agree that NMMA might not have the science right and that there may be other explanations such as exposure to salt water and the use of inappropriate alloys. Regardless, there does seem to be a genuine problem. A few days ago, I looked at a well-maintained Robalo at a used boat dealership. I'm not sure how old it was but the hull and cockpit were in very good condition. I was very interested until I noticed that someone had scrawled "Fuel Tank Leaks" on the windshield. Another dealer told me that he routinely changes out aluminum fuel tanks for polyethylene tanks on boats that are older than about ten years. My wife has suggested that we gat a pontoon boat rather than a conventional power boat because they look less "tippy". All the ones that I've seen on the market have aluminum pontoons. Based on the problems that I've seen with aluminum fuel tanks, I am disinclined to get a boat with an aluminum hull for saltwater use.| 13248|13189|2007-05-15 19:01:57|r_graffi|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|> > > Slightly of topic but still relevent I hope. > With regards to a bare steel hull how long will it last out of water presuming it has not been primed. That is if a project takes say 3 years to build before u sandblast how much steel has rusted away. If the project takes 10 years to build before u sandblast what will the hull be like and what will the hull be like in say 20 years. In particular there is a hull in a paddock that is 25 years old should I bother to go and inspect it, what would I be looking for in particular if I did inspect. How could I gage how thick the hull is drill some holes ? What should one be looking for in particular when looking at bare hulls ? A copy of the plans to which the boat was supposedly built is one but the couple i have inquired about haven't even had that. I presume as they get older and get sold with a property or passed on to the kids plans disappear. How do u go about finding out the sail plan of such a boat or do u have to redesign it. How do u work out how much and where the balast should be placed. Or does it become just too difficult Regards RG > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007 4:46 PM > | 13249|13189|2007-05-15 19:11:04|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|All my heating fuel comes off the beach. My power comes from wind generator and solar panel.When I go to the Charlottes , and walk on the beach I'm surrounded by meat on the hoof. I can it for days, getting a years supply quite easily.Ditto up there if you are into fishing.I remeber one trip to Haida Gwai. I canned a bear and a couple of deer, then went to the central coast and canned abalone, then salmon. When I got back to the south coast I had to help a farmer chase his cattle out of the orchard because they were eating themselves sick in knee deep apples. I have often seen people walking past apple trees on public property , the gound around them covered with apples , to go to the supermarket to buy apples. While there they also buy blackberry tea, having passed huge blackberry patches on the way. I stopped buying canned beans and pea soup when I found out I could get a years supply for about 5 bucks.When I stopped paying people to put it in cans( shore infrastructure) and started cooking for myself , ny cruising expenses dropped drastically. Depending on shore infrastructure is like the guy who can't find the time to go fishing because he has to work long hours to pay for the SUV he bought to save him 5 minutes getting to his fishing hole. BC and Alaska are some of the few places in the world where a sailor can minimalise his dependence on infrastructure.Yes you do need a bit, but the more you can minimalise it, the more freedom you have. It also minimalises your environmental foot print. Don't believe for a minute that when things become very difficult, and survival becomes questionable ,that things will remain peaceful, anywhere. Being on land ,surrounded by the needs of survival, makes one a sitting duck. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > or law. > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > someone plants them. Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. Canned food in > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Hmmm. I have 3.5 acres of good land which produces more fruit & > vegetables than I can > > eat, and I can grow a lot more. It's bayfront land where I can > fish any time I like, for free. I > > have a well insulated house which I personally built, and which > will last 30+ years even > > with minimal maintenance. I have solar power as well as mains > power, wood heating as > > well as electric. If I cut off my phone and mains power my > outgoings are less than $1K pa > > for property taxes. Even with power and phone service my outgoings > are in the order of > > $3K pa at the moment. No mortgage, I own it outright. > > > > You might be able to catch fish from a boat, and you can relocate > with a boat, but you > > sure can't supply even most of your food needs with a boat. The > boat is going to > > deteriorate a lot faster than a shoreside dwelling even with good > maintenance (costing > > money) and a *hell* of a lot faster without. A boat is a lot of > good things, but better > > security than a productive piece of land? I don't think so. > > > > If all you have is a rented apartment somewhere, sure, the boat is > a better choice in an > > economic collapse. But I have way more security than a boat. Of > course I live in a nice, > > politically stable place, too. If one lives in some unstable > shithole, a boat makes a lot of > > sense. Not the category I'd put Canada into, tho. Parts of the USA > OTOH.... > > > > PDW > > > > > If you have a boat and the economy implodes , you still have a > home > > > and can leave to anywhere tomorrow. Can't get more security than > that. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I doubled my money & had a helluva good time with a > > > > little 2 tonner I bought years ago. > > > > > > > > Then I bought a 12 tonner & completely rebuilt her. > > > > What a joke, took a bath. > > > > > > > > Lesson learned? ANY chattel is worth ONLY what another > > > > man will pay for it. Period. > > > > > > > > What if the Chinese pull the plug on the yanks & their > > > > economy implodes tomorrow? What's your beloved boat > > > > worth then? What if you have a mortguage as well & > > > > other commitments, perhaps a family? You would be > > > > delighted to take anything you could get. You can't > > > > eat a boat.. well you could try but the conversation > > > > from the wife may not be "please pass the ketchup" > > > > > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at > giving > > > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > > > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > > | 13250|13189|2007-05-15 19:11:22|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Great posting Greg. Thanks Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > http://www.cafelocale.com/discus/messages/25/49160.html?1168389790 > > > > The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems > > The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use of > marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by volume. This > position is based on safety and durability concerns and supported by many > well documented studies. > > According to state boating registrations, there are over 12 million > recreational boats in the United States. Boat builders utilize five types of > materials to fabricate fuel tanks. These are aluminum, steel, cross-link > polyethylene, high density polyethylene and fiberglass. For a rough estimate > of today's numbers, there are approximately four million boats that have > aluminum fuel tanks; approximately seven million have steel or polyethylene > tanks, and less than one million have fiberglass tanks. The data clearly > indicates that the increased use of ethanol in gasoline has raised safety > and durability issues for aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks. > > Aluminum Fuel Tanks > > In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that > relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels > of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks > because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem > occurs when the ethanol content is increased. > > There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a > result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The > more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. > Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion > particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. > The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other > contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from > brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. > Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate > corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce > leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the > environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion > hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine > where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late. . > > The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based > fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not > conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct > electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern > drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat > builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with > sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible > option for the interior of a fuel tank. > > > > Fiberglass Fuel Tanks > > NMMA is in the early stage of evaluating the effects that ethanol in > gasoline has on fiberglass tanks. Boat U.S., the boater advocacy > association, recently issue a consumer alert reporting that owners of older > yachts have experienced leaking fiberglass fuel tanks. There have also been > reports of heavy black deposits on the intake valves of marine engines > resulting in bent push rods, pistons and valves. Some of the preliminary > analysis conducted by an independent lab found the deposits to be di-iso > octyl phalate, a chemical found in the resin, gel coat and filler used to > make fiberglass fuel tanks. > > An initial theory is that when ethanol is introduced to the fuel tank the > very small ethanol molecules diffuse into pores between the resin where they > dissolve the unreacted phalates. Since the phalates are in solution they are > able to pass through the fuel line filters. These phalates have > exceptionally high temperature stability and remain intact when the fuel > evaporates in the carburetor or undergo only partial decomposition in the > combustion chamber thus creating the heavy black deposits on the engine's > intake valves. > > Unlike aluminum, NMMA has yet to identify the effect that ethanol in fuel > has on the tanks integrity or even the root cause of dissolved phalates. The > theory is that it is being caused by ethanol and we know that ethanol > dissolves phalates, but more testing is currently being conducted. > > Conclusion > > As stated in the opening paragraph, the NMMA has serious safety and > durability concerns with the incremental increase in ethanol content in > gasoline motor fuel. The majority of marine engines in use today are open > loop systems that are designed, engineered and calibrated at the factory to > operate with fuel containing either 10% MTBE or ethanol. Changing the fuel > that these engines were designed, engineered and calibrated for will > negatively effect drivability, exhaust and evaporative emissions, and > potentially damage the components. > > While these issues are significant, the boaters have a far more serious > issue. The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks > and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the > ethanol content is increased to 20%. That is not an emissions issue; it is > not a drivability or durability issue. It is an issue that needs to be taken > far more seriously. It is a threat to the health and safety of the boaters > in your state. > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:24 PM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 02:51:19AM -0000, Greg & Christine Vassilakos wrote: > > I've spent the last couple of weekends used boat shopping for a modest- > > sized center console or walk around type fiberglass power boat. (I'd > > rather have a steel ocean cruising sailboat but the realities of life > > dictate that I look for something more modest.) A common ailment among > > power boats that are more than 10 years old is a leaking aluminum gas > > tank. Most of the boats I've seen were built with large removable > > access panels in the decks above the tanks. It is a fairly standard > > operation for the used boat dealers to replace the original aluminum > > tanks with polyethylene tanks. Theoretically, the decks are watertight > > and any water that finds its way to the bilge should be taken care of > > by the bilge pump, yet it is very common for aluminum tanks to develop > > leaks due to corrosion. There is suspicion that ethanol mixed in the > > gasoline is partly responsible for the corrosion problems with the > > tanks. Many power boat manufacturers are now using polyethylene tanks > > instead of aluminum. > > To whatever degree the ethanol affects aluminium, I seriously doubt that > it's a major factor; unprotected aluminium around salt water turns to > white, powdery muck in a very short time. Polished aluminium seems to > last a good bit longer, but one scratch, and that protection goes away. > The aluminium that is generally used for the tanks in production boats > is cheap, rough, and paper-thin - which accounts for the results you're > hearing about. > > I did discover (purely by accident) a rather interesting method of > protecting aluminium that had already started corroding, especially if > the whole surface was involved: > > 1) Wire-brush the surface until you've removed as much of the white > powder/oxide as possible. > 2) Soak the whole surface with WD-40; respray any spots that soak it up > until the whole thing is wet and stays wet. > 3) Repeat step 2 an hour later, then day later, then again about three > days later. > > The trick seems to depend on the previous corrosion, which provides the > finely-pitted surface for the WD-40 to soak into. The main mast winch > plates on my previous boat were in really bad shape when I first got it; > after this treatment, they showed zero deterioration or oxidation for > the next five years (until I sold the boat.) Considering that I was > doing a lot of active sailing in the Caribbean during that period, I'd > call that a pretty good test. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13251|13189|2007-05-15 19:24:35|mickeyolaf|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|No one should build a boat unless they have access to marine parts distributors or are making the parts themselves. If you can't buy where the marine stores buy u are doubling your costs. Retail is a four letter word to a home builder, is 40-60% too much. Even on sale it is still 30% too high. As soon as as a vender says "I'll have to work out the retail price on that" I am promptly out of that transaction. I research every piece I buy. Look for closeouts/clearance/out of production etc. "Sale" still means profit or retail. I have bought a huge part of my boat at swap meets twice a year. Most of my running and standing rigging I put together on the cheap. Blocks at $5 each etc. You can pay $900 for a winch or $50. It will take $30,000 for a very resourcefull person even on the cheap to finish Alex's hull. I speak from experience. I bought every part for my 36 and have spent twice that so whoever buy's Alex's boat should be prepared to spend some money. I think that boat is a bargain. There are people on this site who have bought BS 36 boats completed to the same stage of finish. What did u pay? You can't make paint, chain, batteries, wire, rods, lines, bolts, glass, steel, etc. You have to buy it. Some book I read said the hull and deck was 35% of the cost but I think it more like 25. Whoever buys Alex's boat should have a hefty positive bank balance, lots of disposable income left over from every paycheck and a spouse who understands. Building yourself into debt is not smart. The boat will become a burden instead of dream. Brent built his boat I bet on skill and resoursefullness. Mine went together paid by for overtime at work. If my overtime had been cut half way thru I would have been screwed. My regular income would never have built a 36. I talked to a guy in North Vancpouver years ago who built a Spray 40 glass hull. He got the bulkheads in and ran out of money. It filled with water as the tarps fell apart. Then he drilled a hole in the bottom for the water to get out and end of project. I was there with a friend who planned to offer him next to nothing for it. Silas Crosby looks like a great boat and proves they eventually do make it to the water. I wonder what it took to put her together? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > As I recall, Alex took a year or more from steel on the ground to > this point. Probably a lot more considering the planning > beforehand. This suggests a lot more than 300 hours total into the > project. > > Considering materials, tools, hired labor, food and beer for free > labor, fuel, insurance, wear and tear on the car, rent, etc. I > expect he is already into the project for what he is asking. The > hull has not sold. Quite possibly he will sell at a loss, or not at > all, and need to pay storage. > > Alex is by no means inexperienced, nor is his story unique. Having > reached this point he faces the question that many builders face: do > I continue to pour money into the project, knowing that I may well > be working years for $0, or even at a loss. > > Finishing the boat, to anything approaching "factory" quality takes > significantly more time and $$ than building the hull. Most > experienced builders know this, and value the hull accordingly. It > is difficult for most amateur builders to make a profit, because > everything they buy is at "retail" pricing. > > Yes, some people have flashed up a hull and rough interior, > outfitted the boat with parts salvaged from other boats, and built a > boat on the cheap. In doing so they have most often counted their > time as worth zero, and the salvaged parts as worth zero, to arrive > at an artificial cost for the completed boat. > > There are many reasons to build. Cost is not one of them. Apples > to apples it is very difficult to build for the cost of buying, > unless you count your time as zero. This can clearly been seen > here. You can buy Alex's hull for about what it would cost to > build, and save yourself hundreds if not thousands of hours. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Tacking the bare shell together takes about 100 hours. Detailing > > another 100 hours, welding another 100 hours. Alex's hull only > needs > > about 15 feet of welding. Steel has jumped considerably lately. > Alex's > > hull, could be finished for under 40 K ,including the cost of what > > he's done. Then it could sell for 95 K if finished well. Go ahead , > > buy a load of scrap and hire somebody for $30 an hour to take it to > > the same point as Alex's boat and see if you could get it done for > > under 17K. Whoever buy's Alex's boat will be cruising long before > you > > are finished grinding.It could be cruising befoe this summer's > over. > > Being able to move aboard that much earlier , saving about $1,000 > a > > month in rent payments also cuts ones expenses and saves a bundle, > as > > well as getting ones ass out cruising sooner.Money can be > replaced , > > time can't . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Suggesting that a hull is only worth the scrap value of the > metal is > > > > total bullshit. You go ahead buy a pile of scrap from the > scrapyard > > > > and we'll compare how long it takes you to get sailing , > compared to > > > > the guy who buys a hull with all the detail done, and only has > to > > > > sandblast , paint and sprayfoam , before fitting out. Duhhh!!! > > > > > > Well, Brent, according to you, the answer is something like 100 > > hours. Isn't that what you > > > claim is the time to put a hull together? Sorry but you can't > have > > it both ways. > > > > > > As for my stance, I work backwards from what the boat will sell > for > > once it's in the water > > > and sailing. Take off of that price the cost to finish from its > > current state, and that's the > > > residual value of the hull. How much it's cost so far is > completely > > irrelevant as it's > > > essentially unuseable except as a big garden ornament. Perhaps my > > views are formed by > > > dealing with commercial shipping and the like, but I put no > premium > > on anything that still > > > requires a lot of work & money before it's useable. Yes, it's a > > labour of love for $1 per hour > > > for the builder, but that simply isn't relevant when it comes to > > sale time. > > > > > > There's one of your 36' designs for sale in NZ at the moment, > last > > price I saw was $35K > > > USD. Take off the cost of the rig, engine, internal fitout, > anchors, > > rodes, dinghy, etc etc > > > and what do you have left? Not a lot. The fact that you can't buy > > the material for the > > > residual cost is actually irrelevant, under these circumstances. > > Just proves people are crazy > > > to build a boat *if the intention is to make a profit*. > > > > > > You, yourself, in your book point out the difference between > selling > > price & profit. Can't > > > see why you're failing to see the logic when applied to a bare > hull. > > Doesn't matter what it > > > cost to date, it only matters what it'll cost to finish compared > > with buying a finished boat. > > > > > > Feel free to disagree, you're basically disagreeing with your own > > logic. I've said all I have to > > > say on this subject. As I've said, I turned down a free hull > because > > it was too expensive, I > > > know of 2 others which are garden ornaments and I've seen one > that > > was probably value > > > for money, but it was a completed hull with engine, spars & > sails. > > That one sold but still > > > took over a year before the right buyer came along. > > > > > > Perhaps scrap value is a bit harsh, though, for a well built > steel > > hull. Let's say the current > > > raw material price with zero premium for labour to date. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > | 13252|13235|2007-05-15 20:33:25|David A. Frantz|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|Hi Ben; I find it hard to believe that you don't think the NMMA is not acting in best interest of the boaters. The certainly have a duty to their members, I can't discount that, but clearly such announcements are there to warn current owners of the real dangers associated with ethanol in gas. It would be very difficult, in my mind, to hold manufactures liable for the construction of fuel tanks 10 to 15 years ago that where technically fine for the fuels they where designed for at the time. I realize a good lawyer can sway a jury to do stupid things and corporations do have to deal with that sort of thing, but I believe such warnings are directed at owners that do care about their machinery. The second issue is the mistaken idea that Ethanol fuels are actually good for us. They aren't as to much agricultural production will be taken from the food chain to feed our internal combustion engines. At the very least Ethanol should be considered a stop gap measure. It is a shame that energy production is tied so closely to politics, as the ethanol quest is simply politicians trying to gain capital with agribusiness. In any event I would not want to suggest to anyone here that they build tanks, for their ships, from the materials that NMMA questions. Like it or not the near future will see much more in the way of ethanol and other fuels offered up to us to feed our motors. Thus building tanks should be considered carefully, it might actually make good sense for people to consider stable plastic tanks or stainless steels. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, May 14, 2007 at 11:10:33PM -0000, Greg & Christine Vassilakos > wrote: > > I will offer my apologies in advance to all those who considers this > > subject off-topic for this forum. The following is a position > > statement from the National Marine Manufacturers Association on the > > use of ethanol in gasoline for boats: > > > > ==================================================================== > > > > The Negative Affects of Ethanol on Recreational Boat Fuel Systems > > > > The National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) opposes the use > > of marine fuels that contain greater than 10% ethanol content by > > volume. This position is based on safety and durability concerns and > > supported by many well documented studies. > > Please note the term "opposes". This is simply NMMA's statement of their > legal position; not something that currently destroys fuel tanks but > something that, according to them, _would_ do so if implemented. > > The reason they're making this statement is that several states have > signed a law which requires that gasoline sold after a certain date > (e.g., 2008 for Missouri) contain 10 percent ethanol. Also note that the > NMMA warning is for fuels with *greater* than 10% ethanol. > > I would also like to note that the NMMA's legal position is *not* > aligned with the best interests of boaters; > > it is, in fact, usually the > opposite. In this case, they're scrambling to prevent lawsuits against > their members - not protect the end users. Fuels that are high in > ethanol are certainly in _our_ interests - since they cost less, burn > cleaner, and decrease our dependence on the Middle East. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 13253|13189|2007-05-15 22:19:09|Carl Anderson|Boat costs - what are they?|So just what does it cost NOWDAYS to build a "complete" BS36? The two newest (on the water) BS36's that I have seen cost $100,000+ and $90,000 to get to completion. (One of these boats is currently headed to the Marquesas.) I went into my project figuring that it would cost me as much to get my BS36 to completion. It might cost MORE do to increases in things that I CAN'T MAKE MYSELF! Things like urethane foam insulation (which has increased to $3,800 for a BS36). And paint that went up 25% since January. OK Mickey I splurged and bought NEW winches. (I couldn't see putting something nearly worn out on my NEW boat). I always ask every source of materials for a discount as it is going into new construction. If I don't get one I usually move on until I do. (I CAN'T BELIEVE THE DOUBLE SALES TAX IN CANADA!!!!!!! YIKES ITS 13%!!!!) Anyway the project is coming along as we have been doing the windows and almost ready for the interior paint & foam. Carl mickeyolaf wrote: > > No one should build a boat unless they have access to marine parts > distributors or are making the parts themselves. If you can't buy > where the marine stores buy u are doubling your costs. Retail is a > four letter word to a home builder, is 40-60% too much. Even on sale > it is still 30% too high. As soon as as a vender says "I'll have to > work out the retail price on that" I am promptly out of that > transaction. > I research every piece I buy. Look for closeouts/clearance/out of > production etc. "Sale" still means profit or retail. > I have bought a huge part of my boat at swap meets twice a year. Most > of my running and standing rigging I put together on the cheap. > Blocks at $5 each etc. You can pay $900 for a winch or $50. > > It will take $30,000 for a very resourcefull person even on the cheap > to finish Alex's hull. I speak from experience. I bought every part > for my 36 and have spent twice that so whoever buy's Alex's boat > should be prepared to spend some money. > I think that boat is a bargain. There are people on this site who > have bought BS 36 boats completed to the same stage of finish. What > did u pay? > You can't make paint, chain, batteries, wire, rods, lines, bolts, > glass, steel, etc. You have to buy it. Some book I read said the hull > and deck was 35% of the cost but I think it more like 25. > Whoever buys Alex's boat should have a hefty positive bank balance, > lots of disposable income left over from every paycheck and a spouse > who understands. Building yourself into debt is not smart. The boat > will become a burden instead of dream. > Brent built his boat I bet on skill and resoursefullness. Mine went > together paid by for overtime at work. If my overtime had been cut > half way thru I would have been screwed. My regular income would > never have built a 36. > I talked to a guy in North Vancpouver years ago who built a Spray 40 > glass hull. He got the bulkheads in and ran out of money. It filled > with water as the tarps fell apart. Then he drilled a hole in the > bottom for the water to get out and end of project. I was there with > a friend who planned to offer him next to nothing for it. > Silas Crosby looks like a great boat and proves they eventually do > make it to the water. I wonder what it took to put her together? > > _._,___ | 13254|13189|2007-05-15 22:32:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > or law. Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > someone plants them. Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a long while and that it would be nice. I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll make money. [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are unknown on the US mainland. > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes of effort. (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > Canned food in > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13255|13235|2007-05-15 23:08:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 08:26:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > I find it hard to believe that you don't think the NMMA is not acting in > best interest of the boaters. David, it's a simple and inescapable conclusion. Here it is, step by step: 1) In most cases, the interests of the manufacturers and the end users are directly opposed (just as a simple example, the manufacturer wants to make a boat as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much money as possible, while the buyer want a boat that is built to the highest standards for a minimum cost.) 2) The NMMA is a _manufacturer's_ association; that's whose interests they are bound to protect. Therefore, the end users are their enemy, to be outwitted and blocked whenever possible. Incidentally, the arguments about "maintaining a reputation" and "long-term relationships" don't have much applicability to boaters: the only relationship and reputation that a manufacturer is interested in is that with his distributors. As to the end users, well, that's why you have the NMMA, their retained lawyers, and their deep pockets. It's a political and legal protection mechanism for the manufacturers, nothing more. > The certainly have a duty to their > members, I can't discount that, but clearly such announcements are there > to warn current owners of the real dangers associated with ethanol in > gas. It would be very difficult, in my mind, to hold manufactures > liable for the construction of fuel tanks 10 to 15 years ago that where > technically fine for the fuels they where designed for at the time. I > realize a good lawyer can sway a jury to do stupid things and > corporations do have to deal with that sort of thing, but I believe such > warnings are directed at owners that do care about their machinery. The only reason for such warnings is that the NMMA's lawyers can now claim due diligence on their part, and attack any claims that come up with "we warned them!" Please note that these warnings are not being sent to owners or posted at boat dealerships for new customers to read (that would be a laugh...); they're being sent to the NMMA members, where boaters are not likely to ever see them. > The second issue is the mistaken idea that Ethanol fuels are actually > good for us. They aren't as to much agricultural production will be > taken from the food chain to feed our internal combustion engines. [blink] I assume you haven't heard of the project in Georgia where they're putting homeless people to work, gathering kudzu (a fast-growing vine that converts readily to alcohol) and processing it for ethanol? No agricultural resources are being diverted; given that almost anything that grows can be converted to alcohol, it requires minimal effort to produce the stuff. What's been absent is a large-enough market for it. > At > the very least Ethanol should be considered a stop gap measure. It is > a shame that energy production is tied so closely to politics, as the > ethanol quest is simply politicians trying to gain capital with > agribusiness. I'm afraid that argument is a bit of a red herring. I agree that it's a stop-gap measure, and the right thing to do would be to decrease dependence on fossil fuels overall; that, however, has no bearing on how ethanol affects (or doesn't affect) aluminium fuel tanks. Boats that use gasoline should be built with good-quality polyethylene tanks. If the NMMA issued a statement supporting _that,_ instead of trying to cover their rear ends, I'd be impressed. As things stand now, well, I'll just keep my cynicism. :) > In any event I would not want to suggest to anyone here that they build > tanks, for their ships, from the materials that NMMA questions. Like > it or not the near future will see much more in the way of ethanol and > other fuels offered up to us to feed our motors. Thus building tanks > should be considered carefully, it might actually make good sense for > people to consider stable plastic tanks or stainless steels. We're in complete agreement there. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13256|13235|2007-05-15 23:46:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 10:32:36AM -0700, J Fisher wrote: > I would disagree with some of those statements. Ethanol has a significantly > lower energy content so you have to burn a more for the same amount of HP > output. With E85 it is about a 30% increase in fuel consumption. So on a > boat you will need to hold another 30% of fuel to get the same range as > straight gas. That's not exactly comparing apples with apples - we've been talking about a *10%*-ethanol fuel rather than 85% - but let's take a quick look at your absolutely worst-case scenario: From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85: `` E85 has been repeatedly shown to produce more power than a comparable gasoline fuel, especially in engines that need high octane fuels to avoid early detonation.[3] Ford Motor Company found that power typically increased approximately 5% with the switch to E85 [4]. Researchers working on the equivalent of E85 fuel for general aviation aircraft AGE-85 have seen the same results with an aircraft engine jumping from 600 hp on conventional 100LL AV gas to 650 hp on the AGE-85. Recorded power increases range from 5% to 9% depending on the engine. [5][6] Due to pressure to remove leaded fuel even from racing environments, several racing organizations are looking at ethanol or E85 fuels as suitable alternative fuels for high performance race engines. '' The references for the above are: 3. http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf 4. http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/EthanolfFuelsRebuttal.pdf 5. A review of various studies of the energy return on investment for corn ethanol is available here: http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/ethanol/ethanol.pdf 6. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/coors_doubling_.html > Personally I think the whole ethanol industry in the US is purely political > pork and has no net effect on emissions once you figure in the amount of > energy consumed to make the fuel. From the same article: `` Skeptics caution, however, that these potential benefits are balanced, and possibly offset, by a significant cost in the form of farmland. It has been estimated that the land area required to operate a motor vehicle for one year on pure ethanol, 11 acres, could feed 7 people over the same timeframe.[2] The logical consequences of these competing land uses are that widespread use of ethanol would lower food production from existing agricultural land, potentially inflating food prices due to less supply. Alternatively, the agricultural industry could maintain existing levels of food production and create more farmland — through deforestation — upon which to grow crops for energy production. Ironically, this could lead to the acceleration of the greenhouse effect as well as the loss of biodiversity. It should be pointed out though, that many of these concerns are derived from studies by a single author (Pimentel) which have been rebutted by several reports.^[3]^[4] Pimentel's argument, for example, is based on long-outdated technology, understates the energy costs of refining and transporting petroleum fuels, and neglects to account for the energy value of the byproducts of the ethanol production process, including that of the high protein cattle feed. '' So - one author, flawed study. Not exactly solid ground, there. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13257|13257|2007-05-15 23:47:01|shaunbarrymcmillan|try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by it- enough said!| 13258|13235|2007-05-16 02:41:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|A little something from the AP and UN on this matter. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18551000/ We have already had the bio talk here on the vegie oils and its problems some that carry over to ethanol as far as filters and gaskets. There are already reports of food price increases and deforestation world wide. With E85 there is also the problem of unburnt fuel in the exaust and its enviromental effect. The list goes on and on. The real story is big oil has already dismissed it as the end solution and is investing in other solutions for the masses. Second Iowa and the corn belt are at the center of US presidental elections spending money there supporting ethanol is buying votes with most media carrying the flag. Jon > Skeptics caution, however, that these potential benefits are balanced, > and possibly offset, by a significant cost in the form of farmland. It > has been estimated that the land area required to operate a motor > vehicle for one year on pure ethanol, 11 acres, could feed 7 people over > the same timeframe.[2] The logical consequences of these competing land > uses are that widespread use of ethanol would lower food production from > existing agricultural land, potentially inflating food prices due to > less supply. Alternatively, the agricultural industry could maintain > existing levels of food production and create more farmland â€Â" through > deforestation â€Â" upon which to grow crops for energy production. > Ironically, this could lead to the acceleration of the greenhouse effect > as well as the loss of biodiversity. > > It should be pointed out though, that many of these concerns are derived > from studies by a single author (Pimentel) which have been rebutted by > several reports.^[3]^[4] Pimentel's argument, for example, is based on > long-outdated technology, understates the energy costs of refining and > transporting petroleum fuels, and neglects to account for the energy > value of the byproducts of the ethanol production process, including > that of the high protein cattle feed. > '' > > So - one author, flawed study. Not exactly solid ground, there. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13259|13257|2007-05-16 08:05:21|Paul|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less than animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by it- > enough said! > | 13260|13235|2007-05-16 09:23:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 06:40:52AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > A little something from the AP and UN on this matter. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18551000/ > > We have already had the bio talk here on the vegie oils and its > problems some that carry over to ethanol as far as filters and > gaskets. There are already reports of food price increases and > deforestation world wide. There are also reports of cannibalism, revolutions, religious fanaticism, problems with diaper disposal, and the difficulty of finding a good cigar anymore. I presume that these are also the result of ethanol being added to gasoline? Yes, there is an initial cost associated with using better technologies. No, you cannot go on using your coal oil lamp and grousing about this new-fangled electricity thing and have anyone take your complaints seriously. Using old technology with new fuels will create problems - but vehicles designed to use ethanol, etc. have been around since the *1920s* (Ford's Model T.) The fact that you have a car that's not designed to use modern fuels does not make it a bad idea for the rest of the world to do so. > With E85 there is also the problem of > unburnt fuel in the exaust and its enviromental effect. This is, in fact, wrong. Alcohol burns far more readily and completely than gasoline; take a look at the figures cited in the Wikipedia article I quoted. Some types of pollution will actually be *reversed* by using high ethanol content fuels: `` Using cellulose based processes, the reductions in petroleum, GHG, and fossil energy are expected to reach the following levels in a mature production environment. Cellulose based ethanol production is nearing commercial viability at this time (2006). Woody biomass process (near future technology) petroleum reduction 69.9%, GHG emissions 102.2% (taking GHGs out of the atmosphere) and fossil energy usage 79%. Herbaceous biomass process (near future technology) petroleum usage reduction of 71.4%, GHG emissions 67.6% and fossil energy 70.4%. '' > The list goes > on and on. The real story is big oil has already dismissed it as the > end solution and is investing in other solutions for the masses. And... what, Big Oil has our best interests at heart? In fact, "Big Oil" is doing whatever will maximize their profits. The only way I know of to compel them to serve the public interest is to constrain them legally - and that is what a number of states have done so far. Unrestrained, they poison and destroy the environment; if we make serving the public part of the operating costs, then they will do that necessary minimum. > Second Iowa and the corn belt are at the center of US presidental > elections spending money there supporting ethanol is buying votes > with most media carrying the flag. [rolling eyes] Oh, please. *Any* area of the country can be claimed to be at the center of the elections - but claiming it for Iowa is really stretching it. As it happens, the largest producer of ethanol in the US is Archer Daniels Midland - and they're based in Illinois. Has the election center just shifted? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13261|13261|2007-05-16 09:25:46|J Fisher|Re: Ethanol (OT)|I am not saying that ethanol doesn't make power. E-85 actually works very well for high HP engines, but you have to burn almost twice as much as you would if you were running straight gas. For that matter you can get a 10% HP increase by running oxygenated race gas, but that is $15 to $25 /gallon. I know of 2 local 600+ hp street cars running e-85, one is a Honda civic, the other is a mustang. So if everyone was running e-85 our usage of fuel in this country would increase approximately 30% over what is used now. The ethanol production would have to be more than all the gas that is used currently. I don't see any way that is going to happen. Also check out the credits that automakers get for making flex fuel vehicles. They are bribed to make them. The real solution is decreasing usage of fuel. John -------Original Message------- From: Ben Okopnik Date: 5/15/2007 8:46:48 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 10:32:36AM -0700, J Fisher wrote: > I would disagree with some of those statements. Ethanol has a significantly > lower energy content so you have to burn a more for the same amount of HP > output. With E85 it is about a 30% increase in fuel consumption. So on a > boat you will need to hold another 30% of fuel to get the same range as > straight gas. That's not exactly comparing apples with apples - we've been talking about a *10%*-ethanol fuel rather than 85% - but let's take a quick look at your absolutely worst-case scenario: From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85: `` E85 has been repeatedly shown to produce more power than a comparable gasoline fuel, especially in engines that need high octane fuels to Avoid early detonation. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13262|13189|2007-05-16 09:51:12|sae140|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, r_graffi wrote: > > > > > > > Slightly of topic but still relevent I hope. > > > With regards to a bare steel hull how long will it last out of water > presuming it has not been primed. For comparison - I read somewhere (can't recall the source) that bare steel rusts away at something like 0.1mm per year in salt water. Don't know for sure if that's true, but there are many ship's hulls lying on the bottom that survive for 20 years or more before beginning the extended process of breaking up. With intermittent rainwater - providing the hull dries out after each soaking, there's nothing much to worry about. > That is if a project takes say 3 years to build before u sandblast how > much steel has rusted away. Insignificant. The first year is actually desirable, as rusting helps to weather away the mill-scale. > If the project takes 10 years to build before u sandblast what will the > hull be like > and what will the hull be like in say 20 years. > In particular there is a hull in a paddock that is 25 years old should I > bother to go and inspect it, > what would I be looking for in particular if I did inspect. Damage can come from where the water lies trapped and the steel remains continuously damp - say under several inches of rotting leaves, or under a plank of wood laid on the surface. > How could I gage how thick the hull is drill some holes ? If not already obvious, run a steel brush over some test areas of the surface and check for pitting. The depth of the pits is a good guide as to how much steel is left. The pits themselves are not a major problem, providing they are not too deep, as the blasting and subsequent layers of paint will fill 'em in. > What should one be looking for in particular when looking at bare hulls ? Weld quality - pigeon-shit welding - surface evidence of possible slag inclusions beneath. Hull fairness - check for the starved-horse look. Suggest you take an experienced welder along. > A copy of the plans to which the boat was supposedly built is one but > the couple i have inquired about haven't even had that. > I presume as they get older and get sold with a property or passed on to > the kids plans disappear. Do you know the name of the designer/ model of the boat ? Without some starting info, life may be tough. > How do u go about finding out the sail plan of such a boat or do u have > to redesign it. If you're stuck, look around for a similar hull-form, and copy the sail-plan from that - that should give you a start. Or - take a profile photograph (i.e. side on) and make a paper cut-out of the hull and from that determine the Centre of Lateral Resistance and start from there. > How do u work out how much and where the balast should be placed. In general terms as low as possible near the centre of the hull. The amount can be found by adding ballast until the designed water-line (if known) is approached, or until the stern transom just clears the water. But - difficult to predict beforehand. > Or does it become just too difficult It's difficult starting off with so many unknowns - but not impossible. None of the above is an Absolute Truth, and I'm sure there will be others more experienced who will have their own perspectives on your questions. The bottom line is to ensure that the hull is exactly what you want before you spend too much time and effort on it. If in doubt - walk away. Colin| 13263|13263|2007-05-16 12:58:55|mickeyolaf|Comparison Shopping|My tools were stolen in a B&E on the weekend from a house I'm building. To replace them (Same make and model #'s) at Acklands Granger was $1654. At Sears $899. At Toolup $670. And at Toolup they gave me a free extra litium battery (worth $97) and a coupon from Milwaukie for a free Milwaukie impact wrench worth they claim $250. It took me all of 30 minutes to reduce my cost $1000 and also receive $350 in freebees. Ya gotta love the net. If I can't buy it wholesale, at a swap meet, or new used cheap, I then shop every part I need for the boat over the net until I find it profit free. I'm convinced if u can spare the time and leg work you can build the same boat for half of what somebody paying retail could do it for.| 13264|13235|2007-05-16 13:19:06|David A. Frantz|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|I understand the nature of NMMA, b ut I think taking a position that the customer is the enemy is counter productive for any organization. Look at the attitude that the RIAA has induced into customers that it once had. A different industry but I believe the results are applicable to any. Businesses that have such a hostile attitude towards customers end up with problems that impact their ability to survive. As far as warning their customers, the NMMA's customers are the manufactures. You would not expect an organization that exists to service the manufacturer's to communicate with the customers directly. There have been enough communications through publications directed at consumers for one to have hard time accepting that they (the manufactures) are trying to cover things up or keep the consumer in the dark. In any event boaters are hearing about the issues. Call it due diligence if you want but I see it as being responsible on the part of manufactures. They are simply making people aware that past practices with respect to fuel storage may not be acceptable considering the fuel realities of today. While we are going off course here, I have to challenge you on the viability of bio based fuels. Very little in the way of environmental impact studies have been done. As to agricultural resources they are and have been diverted in the past for ethanol production. When I was a youngster I grew up a few miles from a farmer that invested in an alcohol plant to respond to the fuel crisis of the moment. I also know that agribusiness re behind the current push for alcohol based fuels. No large scale production of alcohol is going to rely upon homeless people picking up sticks. The demand for alcohol based fuels is already having an impact on supplies in the market place for raw materials. This is already driving up the costs of food for the average person. As far as NMMA suggesting what types of tanks boats should be built with, which is restrictive and suppresses innovation they have taken a position that allows members to avoid known issues or possible issues. Reccomending polyethylene at the expense of other materials and new technologies makes about a much sense as suggesting that all boats should be made out of fiberglass. In this forum such a statement would be discarded out of hand as steel is considered a better alternative further as many forums exist to suggest that all boats should be built out of wood. Polyethylene may be a better choice for fuel tanks but it isn't the only one! The NMMA is simply directing its members to consider the risks associated with Fiberglass or Aluminum tanks. I'm not sure how all of this became unreasonable. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 08:26:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I find it hard to believe that you don't think the NMMA is not > acting in > > best interest of the boaters. > > David, it's a simple and inescapable conclusion. Here it is, step by > step: > > 1) In most cases, the interests of the manufacturers and the end users > are directly opposed (just as a simple example, the manufacturer wants > to make a boat as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much money as > possible, while the buyer want a boat that is built to the highest > standards for a minimum cost.) > > 2) The NMMA is a _manufacturer's_ association; that's whose interests > they are bound to protect. Therefore, the end users are their enemy, to > be outwitted and blocked whenever possible. > > Incidentally, the arguments about "maintaining a reputation" and > "long-term relationships" don't have much applicability to boaters: the > only relationship and reputation that a manufacturer is interested in is > that with his distributors. As to the end users, well, that's why you > have the NMMA, their retained lawyers, and their deep pockets. It's a > political and legal protection mechanism for the manufacturers, nothing > more. > > > The certainly have a duty to their > > members, I can't discount that, but clearly such announcements are > there > > to warn current owners of the real dangers associated with ethanol in > > gas. It would be very difficult, in my mind, to hold manufactures > > liable for the construction of fuel tanks 10 to 15 years ago that where > > technically fine for the fuels they where designed for at the time. I > > realize a good lawyer can sway a jury to do stupid things and > > corporations do have to deal with that sort of thing, but I believe > such > > warnings are directed at owners that do care about their machinery. > > The only reason for such warnings is that the NMMA's lawyers can now > claim due diligence on their part, and attack any claims that come up > with "we warned them!" Please note that these warnings are not being > sent to owners or posted at boat dealerships for new customers to read > (that would be a laugh...); they're being sent to the NMMA members, > where boaters are not likely to ever see them. > > > The second issue is the mistaken idea that Ethanol fuels are actually > > good for us. They aren't as to much agricultural production will be > > taken from the food chain to feed our internal combustion engines. > > [blink] I assume you haven't heard of the project in Georgia where > they're putting homeless people to work, gathering kudzu (a fast-growing > vine that converts readily to alcohol) and processing it for ethanol? No > agricultural resources are being diverted; given that almost anything > that grows can be converted to alcohol, it requires minimal effort to > produce the stuff. What's been absent is a large-enough market for it. > > > At > > the very least Ethanol should be considered a stop gap measure. It is > > a shame that energy production is tied so closely to politics, as the > > ethanol quest is simply politicians trying to gain capital with > > agribusiness. > > I'm afraid that argument is a bit of a red herring. I agree that it's a > stop-gap measure, and the right thing to do would be to decrease > dependence on fossil fuels overall; that, however, has no bearing on how > ethanol affects (or doesn't affect) aluminium fuel tanks. > > Boats that use gasoline should be built with good-quality polyethylene > tanks. If the NMMA issued a statement supporting _that,_ instead of > trying to cover their rear ends, I'd be impressed. As things stand now, > well, I'll just keep my cynicism. :) > > > In any event I would not want to suggest to anyone here that they build > > tanks, for their ships, from the materials that NMMA questions. Like > > it or not the near future will see much more in the way of ethanol and > > other fuels offered up to us to feed our motors. Thus building tanks > > should be considered carefully, it might actually make good sense for > > people to consider stable plastic tanks or stainless steels. > > We're in complete agreement there. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 13265|13189|2007-05-16 14:48:44|jnikadie|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|> The two newest (on the water) BS36's that I have seen cost $100,000+ and > $90,000 to get to completion. OUCH! > Things like urethane foam insulation (which has increased to $3,800 for > a BS36). Yeah, it doesn't take too many components like this to add up to a total like the above (our VISA statements are an example of this ... how can those small purchases total THAT?).| 13266|13189|2007-05-16 14:52:58|jnikadie|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|> OK Mickey I splurged and bought NEW winches. > (I couldn't see putting something nearly worn out on my NEW boat). So, what'd you get? > Anyway the project is coming along as we have been doing the windows I've been putting some time into my boat recently, and have done some work on the windows ... I'd be interested in seeing how you're tackling this step (I'm keeping an eye on your website for updates). and > almost ready for the interior paint & foam. So, are you going to flame-spray? (I've pretty much decided to limit myself to zinc primer above the waterline and on the interior ... I understand it's bad mo-jo to put zinc below the waterline ... ???)| 13267|13235|2007-05-16 16:41:19|brentswain38|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|Methanol is a politicalk scam engineered to convince the public that opposite. It takes 5 gallons of fuel of whatever kind to produce a gallon of ethanol, anything but environmentally friendly, and doing so puts the cost of third world food beyond what the locals can afford. Their kids are starving because we put their food in our gas tanks to fuel or toys. And that is supposed to enhance political stability and the stability of our lifestyle in the world??? Duhhh!!!. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I understand the nature of NMMA, b ut I think taking a position that the > customer is the enemy is counter productive for any organization. > Look at the attitude that the RIAA has induced into customers that it > once had. A different industry but I believe the results are > applicable to any. Businesses that have such a hostile attitude > towards customers end up with problems that impact their ability to survive. > > As far as warning their customers, the NMMA's customers are the > manufactures. You would not expect an organization that exists to > service the manufacturer's to communicate with the customers > directly. There have been enough communications through publications > directed at consumers for one to have hard time accepting that they (the > manufactures) are trying to cover things up or keep the consumer in the > dark. In any event boaters are hearing about the issues. > > Call it due diligence if you want but I see it as being responsible on > the part of manufactures. They are simply making people aware that > past practices with respect to fuel storage may not be acceptable > considering the fuel realities of today. > > While we are going off course here, I have to challenge you on the > viability of bio based fuels. Very little in the way of environmental > impact studies have been done. As to agricultural resources they are > and have been diverted in the past for ethanol production. When I was > a youngster I grew up a few miles from a farmer that invested in an > alcohol plant to respond to the fuel crisis of the moment. I also > know that agribusiness re behind the current push for alcohol based > fuels. No large scale production of alcohol is going to rely upon > homeless people picking up sticks. The demand for alcohol based fuels > is already having an impact on supplies in the market place for raw > materials. This is already driving up the costs of food for the > average person. > > As far as NMMA suggesting what types of tanks boats should be built > with, which is restrictive and suppresses innovation they have taken a > position that allows members to avoid known issues or possible > issues. Reccomending polyethylene at the expense of other materials > and new technologies makes about a much sense as suggesting that all > boats should be made out of fiberglass. In this forum such a > statement would be discarded out of hand as steel is considered a better > alternative further as many forums exist to suggest that all boats > should be built out of wood. Polyethylene may be a better choice for > fuel tanks but it isn't the only one! The NMMA is simply directing > its members to consider the risks associated with Fiberglass or Aluminum > tanks. I'm not sure how all of this became unreasonable. > > Dave > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 08:26:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > Hi Ben; > > > > > > I find it hard to believe that you don't think the NMMA is not > > acting in > > > best interest of the boaters. > > > > David, it's a simple and inescapable conclusion. Here it is, step by > > step: > > > > 1) In most cases, the interests of the manufacturers and the end users > > are directly opposed (just as a simple example, the manufacturer wants > > to make a boat as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much money as > > possible, while the buyer want a boat that is built to the highest > > standards for a minimum cost.) > > > > 2) The NMMA is a _manufacturer's_ association; that's whose interests > > they are bound to protect. Therefore, the end users are their enemy, to > > be outwitted and blocked whenever possible. > > > > Incidentally, the arguments about "maintaining a reputation" and > > "long-term relationships" don't have much applicability to boaters: the > > only relationship and reputation that a manufacturer is interested in is > > that with his distributors. As to the end users, well, that's why you > > have the NMMA, their retained lawyers, and their deep pockets. It's a > > political and legal protection mechanism for the manufacturers, nothing > > more. > > > > > The certainly have a duty to their > > > members, I can't discount that, but clearly such announcements are > > there > > > to warn current owners of the real dangers associated with ethanol in > > > gas. It would be very difficult, in my mind, to hold manufactures > > > liable for the construction of fuel tanks 10 to 15 years ago that where > > > technically fine for the fuels they where designed for at the time. I > > > realize a good lawyer can sway a jury to do stupid things and > > > corporations do have to deal with that sort of thing, but I believe > > such > > > warnings are directed at owners that do care about their machinery. > > > > The only reason for such warnings is that the NMMA's lawyers can now > > claim due diligence on their part, and attack any claims that come up > > with "we warned them!" Please note that these warnings are not being > > sent to owners or posted at boat dealerships for new customers to read > > (that would be a laugh...); they're being sent to the NMMA members, > > where boaters are not likely to ever see them. > > > > > > The second issue is the mistaken idea that Ethanol fuels are actually > > > good for us. They aren't as to much agricultural production will be > > > taken from the food chain to feed our internal combustion engines. > > > > [blink] I assume you haven't heard of the project in Georgia where > > they're putting homeless people to work, gathering kudzu (a fast-growing > > vine that converts readily to alcohol) and processing it for ethanol? No > > agricultural resources are being diverted; given that almost anything > > that grows can be converted to alcohol, it requires minimal effort to > > produce the stuff. What's been absent is a large-enough market for it. > > > > > At > > > the very least Ethanol should be considered a stop gap measure. It is > > > a shame that energy production is tied so closely to politics, as the > > > ethanol quest is simply politicians trying to gain capital with > > > agribusiness. > > > > I'm afraid that argument is a bit of a red herring. I agree that it's a > > stop-gap measure, and the right thing to do would be to decrease > > dependence on fossil fuels overall; that, however, has no bearing on how > > ethanol affects (or doesn't affect) aluminium fuel tanks. > > > > Boats that use gasoline should be built with good-quality polyethylene > > tanks. If the NMMA issued a statement supporting _that,_ instead of > > trying to cover their rear ends, I'd be impressed. As things stand now, > > well, I'll just keep my cynicism. :) > > > > > In any event I would not want to suggest to anyone here that they build > > > tanks, for their ships, from the materials that NMMA questions. Like > > > it or not the near future will see much more in the way of ethanol and > > > other fuels offered up to us to feed our motors. Thus building tanks > > > should be considered carefully, it might actually make good sense for > > > people to consider stable plastic tanks or stainless steels. > > > > We're in complete agreement there. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > | 13268|13189|2007-05-16 16:52:46|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|That was in an article by David Gerr in Sail magazine. He was suggesting that all steel hulls lose a certain thickkness of their hull all over, regardless of what kind of paint is over it. I wonder what is holding my paint on for 23 years if Gerr's theory is true and it is hollow underneath. Obviously Gerr is definitly not the sharpest tool in the shed. This is typical of the misinformation that those with a stake in promoting other hull materials, disseminate amoung the naive public. I sent this to Sail Magazine , but hey didn't publish it. Their buusiness is selling Beneteaus. I once read of a couple cruising in the tropics in a 3 16th plate steel hull. Behind the head it was always wet, so they couldn't put any paint there . It took 15 years to corode thru 3/16th plate, in the tropics. You could have a hull surveyed by ultrasound , which would tell you the hull thickness anywhere you chose to look. Or you could whack it anywhere you doubted with a sledge hammer and a centrepunch. If it doesn't give, you don't have structural problem there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, r_graffi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Slightly of topic but still relevent I hope. > > > > > With regards to a bare steel hull how long will it last out of water > > presuming it has not been primed. > > > For comparison - I read somewhere (can't recall the source) that bare > steel rusts away at something like 0.1mm per year in salt water. > Don't know for sure if that's true, but there are many ship's hulls > lying on the bottom that survive for 20 years or more before beginning > the extended process of breaking up. > > With intermittent rainwater - providing the hull dries out after each > soaking, there's nothing much to worry about. > > > That is if a project takes say 3 years to build before u sandblast how > > much steel has rusted away. > > Insignificant. The first year is actually desirable, as rusting helps > to weather away the mill-scale. > > > If the project takes 10 years to build before u sandblast what will the > > hull be like > > and what will the hull be like in say 20 years. > > In particular there is a hull in a paddock that is 25 years old > should I > > bother to go and inspect it, > > what would I be looking for in particular if I did inspect. > > Damage can come from where the water lies trapped and the steel > remains continuously damp - say under several inches of rotting > leaves, or under a plank of wood laid on the surface. > > > How could I gage how thick the hull is drill some holes ? > > If not already obvious, run a steel brush over some test areas of the > surface and check for pitting. The depth of the pits is a good guide > as to how much steel is left. The pits themselves are not a major > problem, providing they are not too deep, as the blasting and > subsequent layers of paint will fill 'em in. > > > What should one be looking for in particular when looking at bare > hulls ? > > Weld quality - pigeon-shit welding - surface evidence of possible slag > inclusions beneath. Hull fairness - check for the starved-horse look. > Suggest you take an experienced welder along. > > > A copy of the plans to which the boat was supposedly built is one but > > the couple i have inquired about haven't even had that. > > I presume as they get older and get sold with a property or passed > on to > > the kids plans disappear. > > Do you know the name of the designer/ model of the boat ? Without > some starting info, life may be tough. > > > How do u go about finding out the sail plan of such a boat or do u have > > to redesign it. > > If you're stuck, look around for a similar hull-form, and copy the > sail-plan from that - that should give you a start. Or - take a > profile photograph (i.e. side on) and make a paper cut-out of the hull > and from that determine the Centre of Lateral Resistance and start > from there. > > > How do u work out how much and where the balast should be placed. > > In general terms as low as possible near the centre of the hull. The > amount can be found by adding ballast until the designed water-line > (if known) is approached, or until the stern transom just clears the > water. But - difficult to predict beforehand. > > > Or does it become just too difficult > > It's difficult starting off with so many unknowns - but not impossible. > > None of the above is an Absolute Truth, and I'm sure there will be > others more experienced who will have their own perspectives on your > questions. > > The bottom line is to ensure that the hull is exactly what you want > before you spend too much time and effort on it. If in doubt - walk away. > > Colin > | 13269|13235|2007-05-16 17:15:44|brentswain38|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|The way to get the highest standards at the minimum costs is to build your own from scrounged materials.Professionally built means built by someone who has great experience at skimping and hiding the skimpyness of things under a glossy finish, and no time to scrounge for deals. The highest quality boats are those built by intelligent, consciencious home builders, building for their own use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 08:26:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > I find it hard to believe that you don't think the NMMA is not acting in > > best interest of the boaters. > > David, it's a simple and inescapable conclusion. Here it is, step by > step: > > 1) In most cases, the interests of the manufacturers and the end users > are directly opposed (just as a simple example, the manufacturer wants > to make a boat as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much money as > possible, while the buyer want a boat that is built to the highest > standards for a minimum cost.) > > 2) The NMMA is a _manufacturer's_ association; that's whose interests > they are bound to protect. Therefore, the end users are their enemy, to > be outwitted and blocked whenever possible. > > Incidentally, the arguments about "maintaining a reputation" and > "long-term relationships" don't have much applicability to boaters: the > only relationship and reputation that a manufacturer is interested in is > that with his distributors. As to the end users, well, that's why you > have the NMMA, their retained lawyers, and their deep pockets. It's a > political and legal protection mechanism for the manufacturers, nothing > more. > > > The certainly have a duty to their > > members, I can't discount that, but clearly such announcements are there > > to warn current owners of the real dangers associated with ethanol in > > gas. It would be very difficult, in my mind, to hold manufactures > > liable for the construction of fuel tanks 10 to 15 years ago that where > > technically fine for the fuels they where designed for at the time. I > > realize a good lawyer can sway a jury to do stupid things and > > corporations do have to deal with that sort of thing, but I believe such > > warnings are directed at owners that do care about their machinery. > > The only reason for such warnings is that the NMMA's lawyers can now > claim due diligence on their part, and attack any claims that come up > with "we warned them!" Please note that these warnings are not being > sent to owners or posted at boat dealerships for new customers to read > (that would be a laugh...); they're being sent to the NMMA members, > where boaters are not likely to ever see them. > > > The second issue is the mistaken idea that Ethanol fuels are actually > > good for us. They aren't as to much agricultural production will be > > taken from the food chain to feed our internal combustion engines. > > [blink] I assume you haven't heard of the project in Georgia where > they're putting homeless people to work, gathering kudzu (a fast-growing > vine that converts readily to alcohol) and processing it for ethanol? No > agricultural resources are being diverted; given that almost anything > that grows can be converted to alcohol, it requires minimal effort to > produce the stuff. What's been absent is a large-enough market for it. > > > At > > the very least Ethanol should be considered a stop gap measure. It is > > a shame that energy production is tied so closely to politics, as the > > ethanol quest is simply politicians trying to gain capital with > > agribusiness. > > I'm afraid that argument is a bit of a red herring. I agree that it's a > stop-gap measure, and the right thing to do would be to decrease > dependence on fossil fuels overall; that, however, has no bearing on how > ethanol affects (or doesn't affect) aluminium fuel tanks. > > Boats that use gasoline should be built with good-quality polyethylene > tanks. If the NMMA issued a statement supporting _that,_ instead of > trying to cover their rear ends, I'd be impressed. As things stand now, > well, I'll just keep my cynicism. :) > > > In any event I would not want to suggest to anyone here that they build > > tanks, for their ships, from the materials that NMMA questions. Like > > it or not the near future will see much more in the way of ethanol and > > other fuels offered up to us to feed our motors. Thus building tanks > > should be considered carefully, it might actually make good sense for > > people to consider stable plastic tanks or stainless steels. > > We're in complete agreement there. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13270|13189|2007-05-16 17:20:42|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Dried food is a much wiser choice for cruisers. You can fit a years supply in a tiny space. Greg reminds me of a politico who naivly told me that nobody lives of hunting anymore. After all doesn't every one live in a condo just down the road from a supermarket? Friends from the north tell me that 80% of the food up there comes from hunting. A head of lettuce flown in from the south costs $10, while they are surrounded by herds of Cariboo numbering in the thousands. So what do urban condo dwellers think they eat? I think people like Greg and the politicos need to get out once in a while , away from the tiny part of the planet which are populated and into the real world, to cure their naivity. Unfortunatly many political decisions are based on the assumption that everyone is an urban dweller. A series on CBC radio last year called the Canadian Clearances , compared this to the Scottish Highland Clearances , a war on subsistence living, by politicoes of all political stripes, to force people off the land and into the cities ,to leave the land free for unchallenged resource mining. Dont be suprised to see this policy extended to cruisers. James Warren's attempts to provide locals with marine mobility was strongly opposed by governments. They didn't want the average person to have that kind of freedom. Gregs position supports their attempts to block such freedom. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > > or law. > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > > someone plants them. > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a > long while and that it would be nice. > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll > make money. > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are > unknown on the US mainland. > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes > of effort. > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > Canned food in > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13271|13189|2007-05-16 17:53:43|brentswain38|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|My interior cost me roughly $50 When John Sampson started the cement boat craze in the 70's he told people that they could build cheaply if they used scrounged materials and galv rigging, etc. They built cement hulls, then hired expensive people to bolt teak all over them, inside and out, put new masts with stainless "yachty "rigging and new sails,new winches paid expensive people to put it al together, then complained that it wasn't as cheap as he said it would be . If they had followed his advice and gone back and re- read the instructions for as many times as it took to sink in, they wouldn't have had a financial problem. I can't believe the number of people pleading poverty, who insist on new winches , a new mainsail , new interior wood, etc etc, and paying someone else to put it all together.. I never said building an origami steel hull meant that having expensive tastes in everything else would automatically come free. I roughed my interior in using salvaged plywood. There are huge amounts around.Then I lived with bare foam, only putting in the rest of the lockers, etc in when I found a piece of plywood free to do it with.I salvaged gumwood for trim,off motorcycle crates ,and hockeystick handles , yet I hear people complaining about poverty while buying new hardwood at retail prices.. I sailed without winches for a while and only installed what I could get cheap. Winches take minutes to change when you find a deal on them. They rarely wear out.. Mine cost $150 each, arco 40's , at a dock sale. My aluminiumnm for the hatches were scrounged of a sunken wreck. My standing rigging cost $20 at a scrapyard. I did all my own work. Welding is very easy to learn, yet people pleading poverty go thru the whole project without ever even trying to pick up a stinger and use it. If a boat costs you 100K then it is all your own fault. Use your freakin heads. Status symbols cost money, that is why they are status symbols. Recycling centres will give you paint for free , just sign for it. Lots of latex for painting the foam, some oil for interiors nd topcoats. Gangers in Surrey have half a warehouse full of surplus shipyard paints. Epoxy is epoxy , only th ethicknes nmatters.. Mine was US military surplus from a place south of Port Townsend. Got antifouling there too. We live in an incredibly wastefull society , which provides us with many of th ematerials we need from what others throw out. Join the ewasteful who do the throwing out , and are too upity to use what they they waste and you lose your bitching rights.So quit your bitching. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > So just what does it cost NOWDAYS to build a "complete" BS36? > > The two newest (on the water) BS36's that I have seen cost $100,000+ and > $90,000 to get to completion. > (One of these boats is currently headed to the Marquesas.) > > I went into my project figuring that it would cost me as much to get my > BS36 to completion. > > It might cost MORE do to increases in things that I CAN'T MAKE MYSELF! > > Things like urethane foam insulation (which has increased to $3,800 for > a BS36). > And paint that went up 25% since January. > > OK Mickey I splurged and bought NEW winches. > (I couldn't see putting something nearly worn out on my NEW boat). > > I always ask every source of materials for a discount as it is going > into new construction. > If I don't get one I usually move on until I do. > (I CAN'T BELIEVE THE DOUBLE SALES TAX IN CANADA!!!!!!! YIKES ITS 13%!!!!) > > Anyway the project is coming along as we have been doing the windows and > almost ready for the interior paint & foam. > Carl > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > No one should build a boat unless they have access to marine parts > > distributors or are making the parts themselves. If you can't buy > > where the marine stores buy u are doubling your costs. Retail is a > > four letter word to a home builder, is 40-60% too much. Even on sale > > it is still 30% too high. As soon as as a vender says "I'll have to > > work out the retail price on that" I am promptly out of that > > transaction. > > I research every piece I buy. Look for closeouts/clearance/out of > > production etc. "Sale" still means profit or retail. > > I have bought a huge part of my boat at swap meets twice a year. Most > > of my running and standing rigging I put together on the cheap. > > Blocks at $5 each etc. You can pay $900 for a winch or $50. > > > > It will take $30,000 for a very resourcefull person even on the cheap > > to finish Alex's hull. I speak from experience. I bought every part > > for my 36 and have spent twice that so whoever buy's Alex's boat > > should be prepared to spend some money. > > I think that boat is a bargain. There are people on this site who > > have bought BS 36 boats completed to the same stage of finish. What > > did u pay? > > You can't make paint, chain, batteries, wire, rods, lines, bolts, > > glass, steel, etc. You have to buy it. Some book I read said the hull > > and deck was 35% of the cost but I think it more like 25. > > Whoever buys Alex's boat should have a hefty positive bank balance, > > lots of disposable income left over from every paycheck and a spouse > > who understands. Building yourself into debt is not smart. The boat > > will become a burden instead of dream. > > Brent built his boat I bet on skill and resoursefullness. Mine went > > together paid by for overtime at work. If my overtime had been cut > > half way thru I would have been screwed. My regular income would > > never have built a 36. > > I talked to a guy in North Vancpouver years ago who built a Spray 40 > > glass hull. He got the bulkheads in and ran out of money. It filled > > with water as the tarps fell apart. Then he drilled a hole in the > > bottom for the water to get out and end of project. I was there with > > a friend who planned to offer him next to nothing for it. > > Silas Crosby looks like a great boat and proves they eventually do > > make it to the water. I wonder what it took to put her together? > > > > _._,___ > | 13272|13257|2007-05-16 18:25:25|teo sakell|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables present kinds of behavior). -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less than animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by it- > enough said! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13273|13235|2007-05-16 19:18:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 09:15:42PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > The way to get the highest standards at the minimum costs is to build > your own from scrounged materials.Professionally built means built by > someone who has great experience at skimping and hiding the skimpyness > of things under a glossy finish, and no time to scrounge for deals. > The highest quality boats are those built by intelligent, > consciencious home builders, building for their own use. That's my viewpoint as well. When you're your own builder, the interests of the builder and the end user are exactly the same. :) This is also why I've been a consultant (instead of an employee) for over 20 years now. When the goal the drives me is my own reputation instead of a paycheck, my goals and the client's goals are aligned instead of opposed. I like to think I'm smart enough to avoid _that_ particular conflict in lots of places. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13274|13257|2007-05-16 19:48:08|Paul|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Actually they are very dependent on life to live. Most of their nutrients come from decaying organic matter, both plant and animal and without animals converting their CO2 to oxygen they would die. But my point is rather that we are a part of a web of interdependent life and eating either animals or vegetables is perfectly natural and appropriate. Given the chance, there are many animals out there just as willing to eat us. Many species are well tended and cultivated solely because we find them tasty, just as we do with plants we like to eat. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables present > kinds of behavior). > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Paul > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and > deer alone > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less than > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > Paul H. > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by > it- > > enough said! > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13275|13257|2007-05-16 19:49:11|brentswain38|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables present > kinds of behavior). > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Paul > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and > deer alone > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less than > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > Paul H. > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by > it- > > enough said! > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13276|13257|2007-05-16 19:57:44|brentswain38|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|It's hard to imagine a bigger hippocrite than a vegetarian claiming to be environmentally friendly, when they sponsor the creation of huge monocultures, whose goal is to wipe out all biodiversity and all species but one, over huge areas, using toxic chemicals to reach that goal whenever it's convenient . My ancestors lived of hunting here for over 12,000 years and did far less damage than the farmers did in the last hundred years. The Sahara desert was made by farmers, not hunters. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were > drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables present > > kinds of behavior). > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of Paul > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and > > deer alone > > > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less than > > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > > > Paul H. > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by > > it- > > > enough said! > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13277|13257|2007-05-16 21:10:35|kingsknight4life|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's hard to imagine a bigger hippocrite than a vegetarian claiming to > be environmentally friendly, when they sponsor the creation of huge > monocultures, whose goal is to wipe out all biodiversity and all > species but one, over huge areas, using toxic chemicals to reach that > goal whenever it's convenient . My ancestors lived of hunting here for > over 12,000 years and did far less damage than the farmers did in the > last hundred years. The Sahara desert was made by farmers, not hunters. > Brent > > >I agree with Brent on this one. Most vegetarians are either naive or hypocrites. Rowland| 13278|13189|2007-05-16 21:11:00|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|I've been astonished at how much steel (and aluminum) fabricating shops throw out. There are a lot of small (and not so small) pieces of steel just sitting around waiting to be thrown in a landfill or recycled. Establishing relationships with nearby fabricators can benefit both parties…you get some material and the fabricators get rid of material. Several local fabricators let me peruse their scrap piles. I always offer to pay, but often they are just happy to get rid of it. It doesn't take much time to do the scrounge circuit on a regular basis. Some of them will even keep their eyes out for particular shapes/sizes/materials. I've had reasonable luck with stainless as well. Wood is even easier. Although I am early in the building process, I've been scrounging and building small parts and pieces...the ones that when bought new add up to a lot of money. I can make blocks in short order, I've been building stainless detail pieces, hatches, etc. I've also been opportunistic. Get started early on the small stuff....I think it will pay big dividends later. It also allows time to learn some useful techniques. Staying on a budget is not a bad idea. I try to prioritize; there are certain parts of the project I don’t want to compromise on and I am willing to pay more money (abraded, pre-primed steel, for instance). The attitude of “I am building a new boat, therefore everything on it will be new” would seem intimidating and prohibitive for me, and is likely to sink a boat project long before launch. I’m trying to build a BS26 for 12K (if I miss by a couple K, no big problem). 100K for a 36 seems on the higher end of building costs. A BS36 is 2.5 to 3 times the size of a 26 (based on the relationship of length and volume of 2 similarly shaped items). Seems like $40-50K would go a long way to finishing a BS36 to get it on the water. Either my budget is waaaaayyy off, or others have just made different decisions than I have concerning how to go about building a boat. I think it is the latter. I guess this is why the most difficult question to answer (and most often asked?) is “How much does it cost to build a (insert boat design here)? As for scrounging….anyone know where I can get a 35’ mast pole….? Hehe Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 1:52 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat costs - what are they? > > My interior cost me roughly $50 > When John Sampson started the cement boat craze in the 70's he told > people that they could build cheaply if they used scrounged materials > and galv rigging, etc. They built cement hulls, then hired expensive > people to bolt teak all over them, inside and out, put new masts with > stainless "yachty "rigging and new sails,new winches paid expensive > people to put it al together, then complained that it wasn't as cheap > as he said it would be . If they had followed his advice and gone back > and re- read the instructions for as many times as it took to sink in, > they wouldn't have had a financial problem. > I can't believe the number of people pleading poverty, who insist on > new winches , a new mainsail , new interior wood, etc etc, and paying > someone else to put it all together.. I never said building an > origami steel hull meant that having expensive tastes in everything > else would automatically come free. > I roughed my interior in using salvaged plywood. There are huge > amounts around.Then I lived with bare foam, only putting in the rest > of the lockers, etc in when I found a piece of plywood free to do it > with.I salvaged gumwood for trim,off motorcycle crates ,and > hockeystick handles , yet I hear people complaining about poverty > while buying new hardwood at retail prices.. > I sailed without winches for a while and only installed what I could > get cheap. Winches take minutes to change when you find a deal on > them. They rarely wear out.. Mine cost $150 each, arco 40's , at a > dock sale. My aluminiumnm for the hatches were scrounged of a sunken > wreck. > My standing rigging cost $20 at a scrapyard. I did all my own work. > Welding is very easy to learn, yet people pleading poverty go thru the > whole project without ever even trying to pick up a stinger and > use it. > If a boat costs you 100K then it is all your own fault. Use your > freakin heads. Status symbols cost money, that is why they are status > symbols. > Recycling centres will give you paint for free , just sign for it. > Lots of latex for painting the foam, some oil for interiors nd > topcoats. Gangers in Surrey have half a warehouse full of surplus > shipyard paints. Epoxy is epoxy , only th ethicknes nmatters.. Mine > was US military surplus from a place south of Port Townsend. Got > antifouling there too. > We live in an incredibly wastefull society , which provides us with > many of th ematerials we need from what others throw out. Join the > ewasteful who do the throwing out , and are too upity to use what they > they waste and you lose your bitching rights.So quit your bitching. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > So just what does it cost NOWDAYS to build a "complete" BS36? > > > > The two newest (on the water) BS36's that I have seen cost $100,000+ > and > > $90,000 to get to completion. > > (One of these boats is currently headed to the Marquesas.) > > > > I went into my project figuring that it would cost me as much to > get my > > BS36 to completion. > > > > It might cost MORE do to increases in things that I CAN'T MAKE > MYSELF!> > > Things like urethane foam insulation (which has increased to > $3,800 for > > a BS36). > > And paint that went up 25% since January. > > > > OK Mickey I splurged and bought NEW winches. > > (I couldn't see putting something nearly worn out on my NEW boat). > > > > I always ask every source of materials for a discount as it is > going > > into new construction. > > If I don't get one I usually move on until I do. > > (I CAN'T BELIEVE THE DOUBLE SALES TAX IN CANADA!!!!!!! YIKES ITS > 13%!!!!) > > > > Anyway the project is coming along as we have been doing the windows > and > > almost ready for the interior paint & foam. > > Carl > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > No one should build a boat unless they have access to marine parts > > > distributors or are making the parts themselves. If you can't buy > > > where the marine stores buy u are doubling your costs. Retail > is a > > > four letter word to a home builder, is 40-60% too much. Even > on sale > > > it is still 30% too high. As soon as as a vender says "I'll > have to > > > work out the retail price on that" I am promptly out of that > > > transaction. > > > I research every piece I buy. Look for closeouts/clearance/out of > > > production etc. "Sale" still means profit or retail. > > > I have bought a huge part of my boat at swap meets twice a > year. Most > > > of my running and standing rigging I put together on the cheap. > > > Blocks at $5 each etc. You can pay $900 for a winch or $50. > > > > > > It will take $30,000 for a very resourcefull person even on > the cheap > > > to finish Alex's hull. I speak from experience. I bought every > part> > for my 36 and have spent twice that so whoever buy's > Alex's boat > > > should be prepared to spend some money. > > > I think that boat is a bargain. There are people on this site who > > > have bought BS 36 boats completed to the same stage of finish. > What> > did u pay? > > > You can't make paint, chain, batteries, wire, rods, lines, bolts, > > > glass, steel, etc. You have to buy it. Some book I read said > the hull > > > and deck was 35% of the cost but I think it more like 25. > > > Whoever buys Alex's boat should have a hefty positive bank > balance,> > lots of disposable income left over from every > paycheck and a spouse > > > who understands. Building yourself into debt is not smart. The > boat> > will become a burden instead of dream. > > > Brent built his boat I bet on skill and resoursefullness. Mine > went> > together paid by for overtime at work. If my overtime had > been cut > > > half way thru I would have been screwed. My regular income would > > > never have built a 36. > > > I talked to a guy in North Vancpouver years ago who built a > Spray 40 > > > glass hull. He got the bulkheads in and ran out of money. It > filled> > with water as the tarps fell apart. Then he drilled a > hole in the > > > bottom for the water to get out and end of project. I was > there with > > > a friend who planned to offer him next to nothing for it. > > > Silas Crosby looks like a great boat and proves they > eventually do > > > make it to the water. I wonder what it took to put her together? > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > | 13279|13263|2007-05-16 21:59:07|Tom|Re: Comparison Shopping|I have been having good luck on ebay with some parts, only one so far not so good bought a galleymaid gimbaling stove that got beat up in shipping and no gimbaling brackets,first time I lit the burner thought it was going to burn up the garage no way in heck am I putting it in the boat . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Comparison Shopping > My tools were stolen in a B&E on the weekend from a house I'm building. > To replace them (Same make and model #'s) at Acklands Granger was > $1654. At Sears $899. At Toolup $670. And at Toolup they gave me a free > extra litium battery (worth $97) and a coupon from Milwaukie for a free > Milwaukie impact wrench worth they claim $250. > It took me all of 30 minutes to reduce my cost $1000 and also receive > $350 in freebees. Ya gotta love the net. > If I can't buy it wholesale, at a swap meet, or new used cheap, I then > shop every part I need for the boat over the net until I find it profit > free. > I'm convinced if u can spare the time and leg work you can build the > same boat for half of what somebody paying retail could do it for. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13280|13280|2007-05-16 22:49:41|shaunbarrymcmillan|vegetables|Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the bear and deer I'll fight back!| 13281|13189|2007-05-16 23:17:57|Carl Anderson|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|The fellow I talked to that had $100K+ into his boat had done nearly all the work himself. Even built his own mast! The fellow that has $90K into his has done nearly everything on his own too. Both had paid Evan Shaler to build their hull and then leave them to the rest. I don't see how that is an extraordinary figure for a BS 36 as SHINOLA (an old BS 36) sold for nearly that much. My first exposure to a BS 36 was DAR MI which was offered for sale at $115K in December 2005. Right now MANDOLINA in "unfinished" condition, and on the hard, is offered at $80K. Well $12,000 will not even buy ALL the steel for a BS 36. (This is assuming that you want abraded & primed steel, as I do, in your boat) I've spent better than $900 just for welding rod! (Yes I have a lot of stainless steel detailing done and that takes "special" rod) Gone are the days of building a complete BS 36 for $17,000 and heading to Japan with $500 in your pocket. Inflation has caused prices to increase on EVERYTHING. Carl > > I’m trying to build a BS26 for 12K (if I miss by a couple K, no big problem). 100K for a 36 seems on the higher end of building costs. A BS36 is 2.5 to 3 times the size of a 26 (based on the relationship of length and volume of 2 similarly shaped items). Seems like $40-50K would go a long way to finishing a BS36 to get it on the water. Either my budget is waaaaayyy off, or others have just made different decisions than I have concerning how to go about building a boat. I think it is the latter. I guess this is why the most difficult question to answer (and most often asked?) is “How much does it cost to build a (insert boat design here)? > > > > | 13282|13261|2007-05-16 23:44:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ethanol (OT)|On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 07:26:28AM -0700, J Fisher wrote: > I am not saying that ethanol doesn't make power. E-85 actually works very > well for high HP engines, but you have to burn almost twice as much as you > would if you were running straight gas. For that matter you can get a 10% > HP increase by running oxygenated race gas, but that is $15 to $25 /gallon. > I know of 2 local 600+ hp street cars running e-85, one is a Honda civic, > the other is a mustang. > > So if everyone was running e-85 our usage of fuel in this country would > increase approximately 30% over what is used now. The ethanol production > would have to be more than all the gas that is used currently. You're right - it would have to increase a lot. How is that more expensive, or less tenable than continuing to buy oil from the Middle East? > I don't see > any way that is going to happen. Also check out the credits that automakers > get for making flex fuel vehicles. They are bribed to make them. As I see it, that's public money being used in the public interest. In my opinion, that's exactly what the government is supposed to do - and mostly doesn't. > The real solution is decreasing usage of fuel. John, wiser words have never been spoken - but, as usual, the implementation is the hard (read "nearly impossible given the current state of things") part. Shifting to ethanol, as I see it, is a move in the right direction - but it is certainly not the complete solution. That has to be a social (95%) as well as technological (5%) solution; until people decide that they're willing to make an effort and give up a bit of ease and comfort, it's not going to happen. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13283|13189|2007-05-16 23:52:56|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Carl I have been shopping and getting steel quotes for the last 5 months and even after the last months price hike my steel cost should be real close to 12k with wheel abraded and primed with devo 302. SS bull rail SS hand rail and the tubing for the mast. Delivered to my shop. My qoute in Feb. was 11k The shipping to Alaska is about 2k of the cost. Thats how much I was quoted for shipping a bar aluminum 46' mast.The othe parts in SS I scrounged. I had a guy give me the SS sinks from an old camper he was junking The propane stove is in great shape to. That just saved me about $500. At least I will have a way to cook if the wife throws me out. You guys are building a great looking boat and I also hope that I mine will be looking as sharp. I am a long ways from being able to retire and dont think I could ever afford to pay a shipwright to do what Evin is doing for you. Paul I will email you when the steel is to get here if you want to come down when I fold the hull. Carl Anderson wrote: The fellow I talked to that had $100K+ into his boat had done nearly all the work himself. Even built his own mast! The fellow that has $90K into his has done nearly everything on his own too. Both had paid Evan Shaler to build their hull and then leave them to the rest. I don't see how that is an extraordinary figure for a BS 36 as SHINOLA (an old BS 36) sold for nearly that much. My first exposure to a BS 36 was DAR MI which was offered for sale at $115K in December 2005. Right now MANDOLINA in "unfinished" condition, and on the hard, is offered at $80K. Well $12,000 will not even buy ALL the steel for a BS 36. (This is assuming that you want abraded & primed steel, as I do, in your boat) I've spent better than $900 just for welding rod! (Yes I have a lot of stainless steel detailing done and that takes "special" rod) Gone are the days of building a complete BS 36 for $17,000 and heading to Japan with $500 in your pocket. Inflation has caused prices to increase on EVERYTHING. Carl > > IÂ’m trying to build a BS26 for 12K (if I miss by a couple K, no big problem). 100K for a 36 seems on the higher end of building costs. A BS36 is 2.5 to 3 times the size of a 26 (based on the relationship of length and volume of 2 similarly shaped items). Seems like $40-50K would go a long way to finishing a BS36 to get it on the water. Either my budget is waaaaayyy off, or others have just made different decisions than I have concerning how to go about building a boat. I think it is the latter. I guess this is why the most difficult question to answer (and most often asked?) is “How much does it cost to build a (insert boat design here)? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13284|13189|2007-05-16 23:56:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > The fellow I talked to that had $100K+ into his boat had done nearly all > the work himself. > Even built his own mast! > > The fellow that has $90K into his has done nearly everything on his own too. How much electronic stuff did they have? How elaborate an internal fitout? Exotic woods? Those figures seem on the high side to me and I speak as one who's just come from dry dock with a big ship and a 7 figure bill. I costed the steel in a Colvin Witch a couple years ago at $8K AUD - 15000 lbs displacement. Double it and you'll be close to current prices perhaps, I haven't bought much steel privately for a while. If a 36', 15K-17K lbs displacement steel boat can be built for less than $40K these days I'd be very surprised. The problem with these discussions is that expectations and circumstances differ so much. Brent says he built his interior practically for free and I believe him. People also say that a newly completed boat will sell for upwards of $90K and I can believe that. What I don't believe is that you can build a scrounged interior and get $90K for the vessel, unless your scrounging is where really nice timbers exist. Brent mentioned people paying $1K a month rent. Other people pay nothing. I've seen a BS 36' boat for $35K USD. You quote some at 3X that. I've seen some quite reasonable steel boats for between $30K and $60K AUD. It's hard to build one for that price, what you get from building is detailed knowledge of how it all works and where the compromises are. What you pay is an enormous amount of time. I have maybe 16 weeks of paid sea time in front of me later this year which will provide the money for me to start building next year. I've got all the timber for my interior already stacked and air dried for 2 years. Friend of mine once said to me that if I wanted to build a boat, build it. If I wanted to go sailing, buy one. He's right. Here is an incomplete list I drew up for when I am looking at boats. Some items you may consider ridiculous, others I don't have you might consider essential. Have fun putting a dollar cost/time cost against each one. Hull Engine & gearbox Propellor shaft Propellor Masts & booms Sails Sail covers Rudder Ballast Head Stove(?) Mechanical: Diesel tanks, vents, filling ports, pipework & filters Exterior paint Interior paint Grab rails exernal Grab rails internal Fisherman anchor CQR anchor Danforth anchor Anchor rodes – chain Bilge pumps x 2 Prop shaft stern gland Antifouling paint Anodes Steering wheel, cables, rudder quadrant etc Emergency tiller New hatches x 3 Lifelines & safety rails Heater Engine exhaust & thru hull pipe Portholes x 14 Holding tank and plumbing Fresh water tanks & plumbing – pumps, taps, sink x 2, vanity, shower? Through hull fittings Blocks Shackles Chain Sheet winches Anchor winch Cleats & chocks Dinghy davit fittings Padeyes Electrical: Batteries Solar panels 12V wiring Inverter 240V wiring Cabin lights – electric & kerosene GPS Radar Autopilot Depth sounder Speed & distance log Wind generator Nav lights & masthead lights VHF radio EPIRB Sail Equip.: Sail battens Sail lacing Welding on mast for shrouds & stays etc Standing rigging Running rigging Navigation: Compass x 2 Charts Flags etc Sextant Safety: Safety harnesses x 4 MOB pole Life jackets & buoys Wet weather gear Life raft Flares, distress sheet etc Other: Fenders Windvane steering Refrigeration Hull insulation Interior accommodation construction Cushions internal (bunks etc) Cushions external seats Dinghy & outboard Gas bottles & plumbing if gas stove Gas sniffer ditto Sewing machine Cooking utensils Bosuns stores Grocery trolley Quite a list...... PDW| 13285|13280|2007-05-17 00:40:12|Paul|Re: vegetables|wow, and I thought vegetarians were all the "let's link arms and sing kumbaya" types. Maybe your unnatural diet (humans are omnivores not herbivores) is causing you to become irrationally angry? Protein deficiency can lead to violent behavior. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the > bear and deer I'll fight back! > | 13286|13189|2007-05-17 00:46:04|silascrosby|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|-Well , my brother and spent about $80,000 can. on the 'Silas Crosby'. It took two years and 4 months to hit the water and another 2 months to get sailing. Launched in , I think, 1994. All of it money well spent. Our priority was not particularly to do it cheaply. We wanted a good, straightforward, conservative design, metal sailboat with short ends, an outboard rudder and a pilothouse. We did not know enough about metal boats at that point to trust a used purchase, so we had to build. Brent's dumpster-diving philosophy certainly saved us a few thousand dollars. That was good and well appreciated .Then we went and spent it all and more on such things as aluminum Isomat spars( but with galvanised rigging- 13 yrs, no rust), new Isuzu 4 cyl engine (3600 hrs,no problems), 6 new Anderson winches(children and small women can grind in the sails). After a few years of flogging crappy used sails and having less-than stellar windward performance we bought a new set (pretty worn after 10 years). I still have a little difficulty justifying the cost of a feathering prop but I would like one. We paid Brent for as long as he would stay and work. We hired welding students to do the long welds. We paid Tony Lyon to rough in the interior. We also worked like mad ourselves both on the boat and at satisfying well paying jobs.Our intention was to go sailing again ASAP in a strong simple boat. It was a difficult and trying project that required us to keep our priorities straight. Sometimes chucking money at the problem was the solution, often money did not help. Yesterday, I went out sailing in Comox but the wind died so I anchored and read in the spring sun for a few hours.To be able to do that is worth a LOT to us.We are heading up to the Goose Group again in July to explore and kayak around. Our next big trip is coming up in 2-3 years. I find that shopping sucks and bargain boasting is kind of nauseating( it seems to have replaced hunting and fighting for some modern men).That said, I salivate at a "good deal" if it hits me in the face (like the 2-meter Ham radio I just bought that replaces my VHF and gives me access to the repeaters etc). (VA7 SKM) The boat does not enter in to the household economy (yeah right!), it is more important than that( like kids, books, skiing, and mountaineering).Now I'm dreaming. It has not cost us very much for several years to maintain and improve the boat. No question that it is all money and time well spent. Like any other difficult task it requires focus and time and often some money ( as much as you want,and not often as little as you have). Hey , Carl Anderson , will you be at your boat next Monday or Tuesday ? I will be coming back from Victoria and will have some time to stop by Cedar. cheers , Steve| 13287|13189|2007-05-17 01:29:53|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Thanks Aaron, I'd love to give you hand when I can. Let me know. My schedule is a little goofy this summer, but I'll try to help or spectate (whichever you prefer!) Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat costs - what are they? > Carl > > I have been shopping and getting steel quotes for the last 5 > months and even after the last months price hike my steel cost > should be real close to 12k with wheel abraded and primed with > devo 302. SS bull rail SS hand rail and the tubing for the mast. > Delivered to my shop. My qoute in Feb. was 11k The shipping to > Alaska is about 2k of the cost. Thats how much I was quoted for > shipping a bar aluminum 46' mast.The othe parts in SS I scrounged. > I had a guy give me the SS sinks from an old camper he was junking > The propane stove is in great shape to. That just saved me about > $500. At least I will have a way to cook if the wife throws me out. > You guys are building a great looking boat and I also hope that > I mine will be looking as sharp. I am a long ways from being able > to retire and dont think I could ever afford to pay a shipwright > to do what Evin is doing for you. > > Paul > I will email you when the steel is to get here if you want to > come down when I fold the hull. > > Carl Anderson wrote: > The fellow I talked to that had $100K+ into his boat had done > nearly all > the work himself. > Even built his own mast! > > The fellow that has $90K into his has done nearly everything on > his own too. > > Both had paid Evan Shaler to build their hull and then leave them > to the > rest. > > I don't see how that is an extraordinary figure for a BS 36 as > SHINOLA > (an old BS 36) sold for nearly that much. > My first exposure to a BS 36 was DAR MI which was offered for sale > at > $115K in December 2005. > Right now MANDOLINA in "unfinished" condition, and on the hard, is > offered at $80K. > > Well $12,000 will not even buy ALL the steel for a BS 36. > (This is assuming that you want abraded & primed steel, as I do, > in your > boat) > > I've spent better than $900 just for welding rod! > (Yes I have a lot of stainless steel detailing done and that takes > "special" rod) > > Gone are the days of building a complete BS 36 for $17,000 and > heading > to Japan with $500 in your pocket. > Inflation has caused prices to increase on EVERYTHING. > > Carl > > > > > I?m trying to build a BS26 for 12K (if I miss by a couple K, no > big problem). 100K for a 36 seems on the higher end of building > costs. A BS36 is 2.5 to 3 times the size of a 26 (based on the > relationship of length and volume of 2 similarly shaped items). > Seems like $40-50K would go a long way to finishing a BS36 to get > it on the water. Either my budget is waaaaayyy off, or others have > just made different decisions than I have concerning how to go > about building a boat. I think it is the latter. I guess this is > why the most difficult question to answer (and most often asked?) > is ?How much does it cost to build a (insert boat design here)? > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at > Yahoo! Games. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13288|13288|2007-05-17 04:08:06|Leigh Giles|Alex's boat|Would anyone know the cost of shipping Alex's hull to Tasmania? Or who would do it?| 13289|13257|2007-05-17 05:41:37|sae140|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > vegetarians. Eh ? The buffalo were wiped out in order to starve the indiginous population of North America into submission (these days we'd call this 'illegal ethnic cleansing'), as the buffalo provided *everything* for those indians who hunted 'em - food, clothing, shelter - nothing was wasted. So without the buffalo, their lifestyle quickly became no longer viable. Land of the Free - for some. The land which was stolen by the US government was then used for both grain production AND rearing livestock - it's not a simple them-and-us vegetarian/non-vegetarian issue. >Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > things we do. Agreed - it enables food production to be controlled, rather than the acquisition of food being a 'chance' event. In turn this enables large numbers of people to do other things with their lives, rather than be constantly pre-occupied with hunting. So the human population continues to rise exponentially, as a result of this controlled food supply. Many call this human progress. I don't. But then I don't eat meat either, although I'd kill and skill a beast for you to eat. Some folks call me a vegetarian just because I don't eat meat - I think they're nuts, and just into labelling the world about them. BTW - I don't know why meat eaters don't eat earth-worms and slugs - it's all meat after all. Perhaps they draw a line as to what's acceptable and what's not ? Then criticise the Koreans for eating dogs. Hypocrisy. Colin| 13290|13257|2007-05-17 07:27:50|audeojude|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|I'm not saying farming on a large scale isn't destructive of the environment if done improperly but it has nothing to do with the death of the buffalo.. That was a purely political act by our forefathers to deny the indians their main food and clothing supply in the economic section of the stated and unstated war we waged against them in the 1800's. It would be better if the buffalo did die out because of lack of grazing land. That would be a more ecologically sound reason for a species to fail like that. Instead they were killed simply to deny the indians. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were > drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables present| 13291|13189|2007-05-17 07:42:13|audeojude|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|http://www.usspars.com/products/specialdeals.asp $999 US for inmast furling mast with rigging and spreaders and all furling equipment brand new. These mast usualy come with an external slot on them so you can use a normal sail to start with and then when you have a dollar or two saved up you can get a in mast furled sail. scott > As for scroungingÂ….anyone know where I can get a 35' mast poleÂ….? Hehe > > Cheers > > Paul | 13292|13189|2007-05-17 09:51:30|Carl Anderson|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Steve, Very well put and close to our thinking about the whole "boating" process. Yes I will be here on Monday & Tuesday of next week. Please do stop by and have a look at where we are in the steel phase. Do you have a HF rig yet? I'm on 80M mostly in the mornings. Carl, WA7PIB/VE7 silascrosby wrote: > > -Well , my brother and spent about $80,000 can. on the 'Silas Crosby'. > It took two years and 4 months to hit the water and another 2 months > to get sailing. Launched in , I think, 1994. All of it money well > spent. Our priority was not particularly to do it cheaply. We wanted a > good, straightforward, conservative design, metal sailboat with short > ends, an outboard rudder and a pilothouse. We did not know enough > about metal boats at that point to trust a used purchase, so we had to > build. > Brent's dumpster-diving philosophy certainly saved us a few thousand > dollars. That was good and well appreciated .Then we went and spent it > all and more on such things as aluminum Isomat spars( but with > galvanised rigging- 13 yrs, no rust), new Isuzu 4 cyl engine (3600 > hrs,no problems), 6 new Anderson winches(children and small women can > grind in the sails). After a few years of flogging crappy used sails > and having less-than stellar windward performance we bought a new set > (pretty worn after 10 years). I still have a little difficulty > justifying the cost of a feathering prop but I would like one. > We paid Brent for as long as he would stay and work. We hired > welding students to do the long welds. We paid Tony Lyon to rough in > the interior. We also worked like mad ourselves both on the boat and > at satisfying well paying jobs.Our intention was to go sailing again ASAP > in a strong simple boat. It was a difficult and trying project that > required > us to keep our priorities straight. Sometimes chucking money at the > problem was the solution, often money did not help. > Yesterday, I went out sailing in Comox but the wind died so I > anchored and read in the spring sun for a few hours.To be able to do > that is worth a LOT > to us.We are heading up to the Goose Group again in July to > explore and kayak around. Our next big trip is coming up in 2-3 years. > I find that shopping sucks and bargain boasting is kind of nauseating( > it seems to > have replaced hunting and fighting for some modern men).That said, I > salivate at a "good deal" if it hits me in the face (like the 2-meter > Ham radio I just bought that replaces my VHF and gives me access to > the repeaters etc). (VA7 SKM) > The boat does not enter in to the household economy (yeah right!), it > is more > important than that( like kids, books, skiing, and mountaineering).Now > I'm dreaming. > It > has not cost us very much for several years to maintain and improve > the boat. No question that it is all money and time well spent. Like > any other difficult task it requires focus and time and often some > money ( as much as you want,and not often as little as you have). > > Hey , Carl Anderson , will you be at your boat next Monday or Tuesday > ? I will be coming back from Victoria and will have some time to stop > by Cedar. > cheers , Steve > > | 13293|13257|2007-05-17 11:11:44|Ray|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by it- > enough said! > No worries brudda - you do what makes you happy - I'll lift my beer to you as I bite off another piece of yummy Venison jerky that my father makes for me from the deer I kill w/my bow. There's plenty of room in the world for differing opinions - to each his own.| 13294|13294|2007-05-17 12:40:31|jonhackett44|Rust around the ports!|Hey gang! Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your ports? Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to blast/grind the paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I imagine that the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the culprit. I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can be cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat bead of 5200 around them. Any ideas would be more than welcome!! Jon S/V Tortue in Seattle| 13295|13189|2007-05-17 15:55:01|Claude|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|> Yes I will be here on Monday & Tuesday of next week. > Please do stop by and have a look. > Do you have a HF rig yet? > I'm on 80M mostly in the mornings. > > Carl, WA7PIB/VE7 > Where is your boat located?| 13296|13288|2007-05-17 16:05:35|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Alex's boat|Hi Leigh, You can most likely safely forget that idea. I shipped my boat La Chica (9.2M 8 tons) to New Zealand from Annapolis, MD, USA in 2003, It cost me US$13 000 plus another NZ$4000.00 to get it off the ship (that really galled). I did it because at the time I could not afford to take off the time required to sail her home and because I have strong sentimental attachment to the the boat (I have lived on her and sailed her almost continuously since 1989). The truth is, it was a dumb thing to do, I should of sold her for what I could get and built a new one. Well you live and learn. Leigh Giles wrote: > Would anyone know the cost of shipping Alex's hull to Tasmania? Or who > would do it? > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 13297|13294|2007-05-17 16:40:22|brentswain38|Re: Rust around the ports!|Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools bit. No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" wrote: > > Hey gang! > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your ports? > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to blast/grind the > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I imagine that > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the culprit. > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can be > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat bead of > 5200 around them. > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! > > Jon > S/V Tortue in Seattle > | 13298|13280|2007-05-17 16:45:02|brentswain38|Re: vegetables|You'd lose Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the > bear and deer I'll fight back! > | 13299|13189|2007-05-17 16:48:53|brentswain38|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Some have started with a spruce tree out of the bush to get sailing and to give themseves time to find a deal, then switched later . One guy I know used a spruce pole , and spent 19 years cruising the South Pacific. The spruce is still there. One important consideration is you should only start the taper 70% above the deck. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I've been astonished at how much steel (and aluminum) fabricating shops throw out. There are a lot of small (and not so small) pieces of steel just sitting around waiting to be thrown in a landfill or recycled. Establishing relationships with nearby fabricators can benefit both partiesÂ…you get some material and the fabricators get rid of material. Several local fabricators let me peruse their scrap piles. I always offer to pay, but often they are just happy to get rid of it. It doesn't take much time to do the scrounge circuit on a regular basis. Some of them will even keep their eyes out for particular shapes/sizes/materials. I've had reasonable luck with stainless as well. > > Wood is even easier. > > Although I am early in the building process, I've been scrounging and building small parts and pieces...the ones that when bought new add up to a lot of money. I can make blocks in short order, I've been building stainless detail pieces, hatches, etc. I've also been opportunistic. Get started early on the small stuff....I think it will pay big dividends later. It also allows time to learn some useful techniques. Staying on a budget is not a bad idea. I try to prioritize; there are certain parts of the project I don't want to compromise on and I am willing to pay more money (abraded, pre-primed steel, for instance). The attitude of "I am building a new boat, therefore everything on it will be new" would seem intimidating and prohibitive for me, and is likely to sink a boat project long before launch. > > I'm trying to build a BS26 for 12K (if I miss by a couple K, no big problem). 100K for a 36 seems on the higher end of building costs. A BS36 is 2.5 to 3 times the size of a 26 (based on the relationship of length and volume of 2 similarly shaped items). Seems like $40-50K would go a long way to finishing a BS36 to get it on the water. Either my budget is waaaaayyy off, or others have just made different decisions than I have concerning how to go about building a boat. I think it is the latter. I guess this is why the most difficult question to answer (and most often asked?) is "How much does it cost to build a (insert boat design here)? > > As for scroungingÂ….anyone know where I can get a 35' mast poleÂ….? Hehe > > Cheers > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 1:52 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat costs - what are they? > > > > > My interior cost me roughly $50 > > When John Sampson started the cement boat craze in the 70's he told > > people that they could build cheaply if they used scrounged materials > > and galv rigging, etc. They built cement hulls, then hired expensive > > people to bolt teak all over them, inside and out, put new masts with > > stainless "yachty "rigging and new sails,new winches paid expensive > > people to put it al together, then complained that it wasn't as cheap > > as he said it would be . If they had followed his advice and gone back > > and re- read the instructions for as many times as it took to sink in, > > they wouldn't have had a financial problem. > > I can't believe the number of people pleading poverty, who insist on > > new winches , a new mainsail , new interior wood, etc etc, and paying > > someone else to put it all together.. I never said building an > > origami steel hull meant that having expensive tastes in everything > > else would automatically come free. > > I roughed my interior in using salvaged plywood. There are huge > > amounts around.Then I lived with bare foam, only putting in the rest > > of the lockers, etc in when I found a piece of plywood free to do it > > with.I salvaged gumwood for trim,off motorcycle crates ,and > > hockeystick handles , yet I hear people complaining about poverty > > while buying new hardwood at retail prices.. > > I sailed without winches for a while and only installed what I could > > get cheap. Winches take minutes to change when you find a deal on > > them. They rarely wear out.. Mine cost $150 each, arco 40's , at a > > dock sale. My aluminiumnm for the hatches were scrounged of a sunken > > wreck. > > My standing rigging cost $20 at a scrapyard. I did all my own work. > > Welding is very easy to learn, yet people pleading poverty go thru the > > whole project without ever even trying to pick up a stinger and > > use it. > > If a boat costs you 100K then it is all your own fault. Use your > > freakin heads. Status symbols cost money, that is why they are status > > symbols. > > Recycling centres will give you paint for free , just sign for it. > > Lots of latex for painting the foam, some oil for interiors nd > > topcoats. Gangers in Surrey have half a warehouse full of surplus > > shipyard paints. Epoxy is epoxy , only th ethicknes nmatters.. Mine > > was US military surplus from a place south of Port Townsend. Got > > antifouling there too. > > We live in an incredibly wastefull society , which provides us with > > many of th ematerials we need from what others throw out. Join the > > ewasteful who do the throwing out , and are too upity to use what they > > they waste and you lose your bitching rights.So quit your bitching. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > So just what does it cost NOWDAYS to build a "complete" BS36? > > > > > > The two newest (on the water) BS36's that I have seen cost $100,000+ > > and > > > $90,000 to get to completion. > > > (One of these boats is currently headed to the Marquesas.) > > > > > > I went into my project figuring that it would cost me as much to > > get my > > > BS36 to completion. > > > > > > It might cost MORE do to increases in things that I CAN'T MAKE > > MYSELF!> > > > Things like urethane foam insulation (which has increased to > > $3,800 for > > > a BS36). > > > And paint that went up 25% since January. > > > > > > OK Mickey I splurged and bought NEW winches. > > > (I couldn't see putting something nearly worn out on my NEW boat). > > > > > > I always ask every source of materials for a discount as it is > > going > > > into new construction. > > > If I don't get one I usually move on until I do. > > > (I CAN'T BELIEVE THE DOUBLE SALES TAX IN CANADA!!!!!!! YIKES ITS > > 13%!!!!) > > > > > > Anyway the project is coming along as we have been doing the windows > > and > > > almost ready for the interior paint & foam. > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > No one should build a boat unless they have access to marine parts > > > > distributors or are making the parts themselves. If you can't buy > > > > where the marine stores buy u are doubling your costs. Retail > > is a > > > > four letter word to a home builder, is 40-60% too much. Even > > on sale > > > > it is still 30% too high. As soon as as a vender says "I'll > > have to > > > > work out the retail price on that" I am promptly out of that > > > > transaction. > > > > I research every piece I buy. Look for closeouts/clearance/out of > > > > production etc. "Sale" still means profit or retail. > > > > I have bought a huge part of my boat at swap meets twice a > > year. Most > > > > of my running and standing rigging I put together on the cheap. > > > > Blocks at $5 each etc. You can pay $900 for a winch or $50. > > > > > > > > It will take $30,000 for a very resourcefull person even on > > the cheap > > > > to finish Alex's hull. I speak from experience. I bought every > > part> > for my 36 and have spent twice that so whoever buy's > > Alex's boat > > > > should be prepared to spend some money. > > > > I think that boat is a bargain. There are people on this site who > > > > have bought BS 36 boats completed to the same stage of finish. > > What> > did u pay? > > > > You can't make paint, chain, batteries, wire, rods, lines, bolts, > > > > glass, steel, etc. You have to buy it. Some book I read said > > the hull > > > > and deck was 35% of the cost but I think it more like 25. > > > > Whoever buys Alex's boat should have a hefty positive bank > > balance,> > lots of disposable income left over from every > > paycheck and a spouse > > > > who understands. Building yourself into debt is not smart. The > > boat> > will become a burden instead of dream. > > > > Brent built his boat I bet on skill and resoursefullness. Mine > > went> > together paid by for overtime at work. If my overtime had > > been cut > > > > half way thru I would have been screwed. My regular income would > > > > never have built a 36. > > > > I talked to a guy in North Vancpouver years ago who built a > > Spray 40 > > > > glass hull. He got the bulkheads in and ran out of money. It > > filled> > with water as the tarps fell apart. Then he drilled a > > hole in the > > > > bottom for the water to get out and end of project. I was > > there with > > > > a friend who planned to offer him next to nothing for it. > > > > Silas Crosby looks like a great boat and proves they > > eventually do > > > > make it to the water. I wonder what it took to put her together? > > > > > > > > _._,___ > > > > > > > > > > | 13300|13189|2007-05-17 16:53:16|brentswain38|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|When people ask about electrics, I suggest they put a lot of conduit in before foaming. Then throw in a couple of kerosene lamps, go cruising , scrounge the wire etc over time and put it in while enjoying peaceful anchorages.I didn't bother with electrics for the first few years. Ditto for anything else that can be changed later. When I was a kid we didn't get tV until I was ten. We only bought when w ehad the money and did without when we didn't My mother was astounded to see youngsters insisting on having all the stuff we did without, from the outset , even if it puts them in debt for years. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > The fellow I talked to that had $100K+ into his boat had done nearly all > > the work himself. > > Even built his own mast! > > > > The fellow that has $90K into his has done nearly everything on his own too. > > How much electronic stuff did they have? How elaborate an internal fitout? Exotic woods? > > Those figures seem on the high side to me and I speak as one who's just come from dry > dock with a big ship and a 7 figure bill. > > I costed the steel in a Colvin Witch a couple years ago at $8K AUD - 15000 lbs > displacement. Double it and you'll be close to current prices perhaps, I haven't bought > much steel privately for a while. If a 36', 15K-17K lbs displacement steel boat can be built > for less than $40K these days I'd be very surprised. > > The problem with these discussions is that expectations and circumstances differ so > much. Brent says he built his interior practically for free and I believe him. People also say > that a newly completed boat will sell for upwards of $90K and I can believe that. What I > don't believe is that you can build a scrounged interior and get $90K for the vessel, unless > your scrounging is where really nice timbers exist. > > Brent mentioned people paying $1K a month rent. Other people pay nothing. I've seen a BS > 36' boat for $35K USD. You quote some at 3X that. I've seen some quite reasonable steel > boats for between $30K and $60K AUD. It's hard to build one for that price, what you get > from building is detailed knowledge of how it all works and where the compromises are. > What you pay is an enormous amount of time. I have maybe 16 weeks of paid sea time in > front of me later this year which will provide the money for me to start building next year. > I've got all the timber for my interior already stacked and air dried for 2 years. > > Friend of mine once said to me that if I wanted to build a boat, build it. If I wanted to go > sailing, buy one. He's right. > > Here is an incomplete list I drew up for when I am looking at boats. Some items you may > consider ridiculous, others I don't have you might consider essential. Have fun putting a > dollar cost/time cost against each one. > > Hull > Engine & gearbox > Propellor shaft > Propellor > Masts & booms > Sails > Sail covers > Rudder > Ballast > Head > Stove(?) > > Mechanical: > > Diesel tanks, vents, filling ports, pipework & filters > > Exterior paint > Interior paint > Grab rails exernal > Grab rails internal > Fisherman anchor > CQR anchor > Danforth anchor > Anchor rodes – chain > Bilge pumps x 2 > Prop shaft stern gland > Antifouling paint > Anodes > Steering wheel, cables, rudder quadrant etc > Emergency tiller > New hatches x 3 > Lifelines & safety rails > Heater > Engine exhaust & thru hull pipe > Portholes x 14 > Holding tank and plumbing > Fresh water tanks & plumbing – pumps, taps, sink x 2, vanity, shower? > Through hull fittings > Blocks > Shackles > Chain > Sheet winches > Anchor winch > Cleats & chocks > Dinghy davit fittings > Padeyes > Electrical: > Batteries > Solar panels > 12V wiring > Inverter > 240V wiring > Cabin lights – electric & kerosene > GPS > Radar > Autopilot > Depth sounder > Speed & distance log > Wind generator > Nav lights & masthead lights > VHF radio > EPIRB > Sail Equip.: > Sail battens > Sail lacing > Welding on mast for shrouds & stays etc > Standing rigging > Running rigging > Navigation: > Compass x 2 > Charts > Flags etc > Sextant > Safety: > Safety harnesses x 4 > MOB pole > Life jackets & buoys > Wet weather gear > Life raft > Flares, distress sheet etc > Other: > Fenders > Windvane steering > Refrigeration > Hull insulation > Interior accommodation construction > Cushions internal (bunks etc) > Cushions external seats > Dinghy & outboard > Gas bottles & plumbing if gas stove > Gas sniffer ditto > Sewing machine > Cooking utensils > Bosuns stores > Grocery trolley > > Quite a list...... > > PDW > | 13301|13280|2007-05-17 16:57:55|brentswain38|Re: vegetables|A rural friend said his neighborur claims to be a vegetarian. He shot a big buck and ate it, catches fish and eats them. My friend said "He's not a vegetarian. He's an opportunivore , like the rest of us." I think the term "Opportunivor" is a handy one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > wow, and I thought vegetarians were all the "let's link arms and sing > kumbaya" types. > > Maybe your unnatural diet (humans are omnivores not herbivores) is > causing you to become irrationally angry? Protein deficiency can lead > to violent behavior. > > Paul H. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back > > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you > > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy > > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the > > bear and deer I'll fight back! > > > | 13302|13280|2007-05-17 16:58:42|brentswain38|Re: vegetables|I have a key to the Comox Valley Boxing club where I train. If you are in the area, send me an email well in advance and we can do a few rounds of sporting activity in the ring. Just for sport , you understand. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the > bear and deer I'll fight back! > | 13303|13257|2007-05-17 17:05:51|brentswain38|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Now corporations are doing to the farmers what their ancestors did to the natives . What goes around comes around . History is repeating itself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > > vegetarians. > > Eh ? The buffalo were wiped out in order to starve the indiginous > population of North America into submission (these days we'd call this > 'illegal ethnic cleansing'), as the buffalo provided *everything* for > those indians who hunted 'em - food, clothing, shelter - nothing was > wasted. So without the buffalo, their lifestyle quickly became no > longer viable. Land of the Free - for some. > > The land which was stolen by the US government was then used for both > grain production AND rearing livestock - it's not a simple them-and-us > vegetarian/non-vegetarian issue. > > >Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > > things we do. > > Agreed - it enables food production to be controlled, rather than the > acquisition of food being a 'chance' event. In turn this enables > large numbers of people to do other things with their lives, rather > than be constantly pre-occupied with hunting. So the human population > continues to rise exponentially, as a result of this controlled food > supply. Many call this human progress. I don't. But then I don't eat > meat either, although I'd kill and skill a beast for you to eat. Some > folks call me a vegetarian just because I don't eat meat - I think > they're nuts, and just into labelling the world about them. > > BTW - I don't know why meat eaters don't eat earth-worms and slugs - > it's all meat after all. Perhaps they draw a line as to what's > acceptable and what's not ? Then criticise the Koreans for eating > dogs. Hypocrisy. > > Colin > | 13304|13304|2007-05-17 17:50:22|Alex|no guerro por favor|I am deep in the heart of Chile at the moment, far from an internet terminal, mildly prisoner in a casa, so No Fightee-Fightee ¿capiche? Gracias! Hasta la vista baby Alex PS my ingles is ño so good no more| 13305|13257|2007-05-17 17:50:24|greg elliott|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|I recall reading that worms account for 90% of the mass of land based animals, so it seems only reasonable that they form the main source of food. Disease spreads most easily when people eat animals most closely related to themselves. On this basis, mammals are the least healthy food source. Greg > BTW - I don't know why meat eaters don't eat earth-worms and slugs - > it's all meat after all. Perhaps they draw a line as to what's > acceptable and what's not ? Then criticise the Koreans for eating > dogs. Hypocrisy. > > Colin > | 13306|13257|2007-05-17 17:50:25|greg elliott|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Your ancestors may have been of European origion, displaced by later settlers from Asia. For political reasons, research on this question is prohibited. Columbus was not the first person to set foot in North America. Nor were the people living here when Columbus arrived. Human beings are explorers. We want to know what is over the next hill, beyond the sea. Boats were invented long before written history. The record of human exploration was burried by the ice ages, and is now hidden behind the ignorance of racism. http://193.41.101.59/debates/article.jsp? id=3&debateId=76&articleId=1623 The Kennewick Man, found in 1996 on a riverbank in Washington State, is one of the many casualties of NAGPRA. Initial studies date it at around 9,600 years old, proving it to be of paleo-Indian age, and one of the oldest prehistoric skeletons to be found in North America. Preliminary analysis suggested the bones are not American Indian but possibly European and the earliest found in this area. But before further research could be done the bones were confiscated. Under NAGPRA any human remains found in North America that predate Columbus's arrival in 1492 are considered American Indian. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's hard to imagine a bigger hippocrite than a vegetarian claiming to > be environmentally friendly, when they sponsor the creation of huge > monocultures, whose goal is to wipe out all biodiversity and all > species but one, over huge areas, using toxic chemicals to reach that > goal whenever it's convenient . My ancestors lived of hunting here for > over 12,000 years and did far less damage than the farmers did in the > last hundred years. The Sahara desert was made by farmers, not hunters. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > > vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > > things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were > > drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > > > > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > > > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > > > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables > present > > > kinds of behavior). > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > On Behalf Of Paul > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and > > > deer alone > > > > > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less > than > > > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > > > > > Paul H. > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by > > > it- > > > > enough said! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13307|13261|2007-05-17 17:50:33|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ethanol (OT)|>> The real solution is decreasing usage of fuel. One of the realities of modern life is that most of us live in cities. Population density requires the application of energy. The closer we live together, the higher the standard of living we maintain, the more energy required per capita. Savings are possible through efficiency, given time and investment, but this takes money away from other purposes. For example: A new car may use less fuel, but it takes more fuel to make the new car. Ultimately to reduce energy usage, some of us have to get off the planet. Volunteers? Myself, I'm all for clean burning fuels. Coal burning in India and China is releasing huge amounts of soot, reducing temperatures in the Indian Ocean. A switch to cleaner fuels would reduce the rate of solar dimming, increasing the rate of warming in Canada. We are seeing this now as advanced countries have cleaned up their fuels, some areas of Canada are now frost free come July. Also, we've been hearing that Chinese coal burning is increasing the storms in Vancouver, just like the Russian nuclear testing changed the weather 50 years ago, or so the newspapers told us. Clean up China and India, help warm up Canada, help get rid of the rain in Vancouver, pretty soon we will have weather like San Diego. Great sailing, year round. Sea level comes up enough, we'll all have waterfront. Dock the boat right at the house. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13308|13235|2007-05-17 17:50:33|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|> Personally I think the whole ethanol industry in the US is purely political > pork and has no net effect on emissions once you figure in the amount of > energy consumed to make the fuel. Climate change is the new enemy. We all must sacrifice (buy product X) to save the world. Only we never ask who is making big $$ as a result of the hype. I'm still trying to see what the problem is if Canada was warmer. Most of us complain that it isn't warm enough. 90% of the country the growing season is too short to support agriculture and 11 months of the year the lakes are too cold to swim in. Half the year they are covered with ice, your need a pick axe to go fishing. What sort of a place is that to live? Warm the place up. Save a bundle on heating in winter, enough to liquor up the car on E85 for the rest of the year, from corn grown in Tuktuyaktuk. Gets hot enough, big $$ selling arctic water to our 300+ million southern neighbors, shipped out in tankers year round via the Northwest Passage. Sea level rises? It isn't like any of us can afford waterfront anyways. For a cruising boat, the reliability, safety, economy and availability of diesel makes it the fuel of choice. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13309|13189|2007-05-17 17:50:34|greg elliott|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. Customs almost always wants duty on a boat if you stay any length of time. They will seize your weapons, making hunting difficult, even if you can get a permit. Overfishing and ciguatera limit fishing around the reef, barracuda especially. Losters are a challenge at the best of times, unless you are up for night diving. This has nothing to do with doom and gloom. Cruising is a cost. Either you pay or someone else pays. Most boats choose to pay their own way, which in most cases limits the time they can stay out. Rather than cruising DR for free, living off the land, chasing girls though the mountains, we find them tied to docks. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > > or law. > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > > someone plants them. > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a > long while and that it would be nice. > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll > make money. > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are > unknown on the US mainland. > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes > of effort. > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > Canned food in > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13310|13189|2007-05-17 17:51:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Dried food need to be rehydrated, and can spoil quickly in the tropics unless carefully sealed. Even then, lots of bugs make quick work of plastic to get inside. Flour, rice, beans - they keep as "dried" food, and you can sprout the beans for fresh greens. The advantage of cans is that they already have water added, and insects cannot penetrate. 6 months worth of cans takes up surprisingly little room, and stored low they double as ballast. I don't rely on friends, or the CBC to tell me about the world. I've lived in close to 100 different countries over the years, including some of the wildest, most remote places on earth. Remember "Pulau Tiga", the first survivor show? It's on the north coast of Borneo, between KK and Labuan. I've been there 1/2 dozen times, with my wife, kids, and dog. Show up with a gun aboard in a foreign country. Declare it and it will be impounded. You might get it back when you leave. Don't declare it, if they find the gun you are facing a fine, prison, and in one country the death penalty. Use an undeclared gun to go hunting? Get caught, you will at a minimum pay big $$, way more than what it costs to buy the meat. More likely you will do a couple of weeks in jail and be deported with a record, never allowed to return, if they don't impound your boat for smuggling weapons. There are two types of cruisers. Those that pay their way and those that live off the land. It is the second group that have given cruisers a bad reputation in many places, because they add nothing. Rather they are competing with the (typically poor) locals for already scarce food and work. The first boat to visit a remote location is often greeted warmly. Lots of gifts. Having taken everything freely available, the boat then leaves nothing in return. The next boat to visit gets broken into when they arrive, everything stolen. This is a common story, repeated many times through history. If you are going to cruise, make sure you can pay your own way. Don't rely on the good will of the locals, because for sure it has limits. You may not have a problem, but you may well cause one for the next boat to visit. Lots of places, cruising boats are not welcome, because all too often boats before have leeched off the local economy. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Dried food is a much wiser choice for cruisers. You can fit a years supply in a tiny space. Greg reminds me of a politico who naivly told me that nobody lives of hunting anymore. After all doesn't every one live in a condo just down the road from a supermarket? Friends from the north tell me that 80% of the food up there comes from hunting. A head of lettuce flown in from the south costs $10, while they are surrounded by herds of Cariboo numbering in the thousands. So what do urban condo dwellers think they eat? I think people like Greg and the politicos need to get out once in a while , away from the tiny part of the planet which are populated and into the real world, to cure their naivity. Unfortunatly many political decisions are based on the assumption that everyone is an urban dweller. A series on CBC radio last year called the Canadian Clearances , compared this to the Scottish Highland Clearances , a war on subsistence living, by politicoes of all political stripes, to force people off the land and into the cities ,to leave the land free for unchallenged resource mining. Dont be suprised to see this policy extended to cruisers. James Warren's attempts to provide locals with marine mobility was strongly opposed by governments. They didn't want the average person to have that kind of freedom. Gregs position supports their attempts to block such freedom. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > > or law. > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > > someone plants them. > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a > long while and that it would be nice. > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll > make money. > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are > unknown on the US mainland. > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes > of effort. > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > Canned food in > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13311|13280|2007-05-17 17:51:28|greg elliott|Re: vegetables|I see a lot of intolerance for other peoples ideas and lifestyle on this site. A lot of name calling. Good ideas don't need to be protected in this way. Only bad ideas need this sort of protection. I see someone calling someone else names, I know the name caller has bad ideas. Maybe some of their ideas are good, but their approach to life, their intolerance for other ideas, that is a type of poison that limits them. It closes their eyes to other options. We are not all the same. What works best for one person will not work best for another. These days, a well built 36 foot amateur boat costs about $100k to build and takes about 3 years of your time. It will sell when new for about $100k. Less as the boat ages. We know this based on what has been published here regarding recent boats. If you want to build, build. Building is not about saving money - because you likely won't. At the end of the day, after everything is added up, at best most amateur builders break even, with their time thrown in for free. If you want to sail, buy. You will get on the water much quicker, for about the same cost, with a lot less risk the boat will never be completed. The time you would have spend building you can work for wages to earn the money to pay for the boat. If you move aboard you start saving rent years sooner, further reducing the cost. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to back > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and you > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so enjoy > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike the > bear and deer I'll fight back! > | 13313|13189|2007-05-17 19:52:40|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I once spent a winter cruising French polynesia with $500 worth of dried food aboard. I ate well and nothing spoiled. Being aboriginal, I follow the way of feeding oneself that my ancestors have used here over 12,000 years.I don'need an johhny come lately to tell me I'm commiting a moral sin when I do. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Dried food need to be rehydrated, and can spoil quickly in the tropics > unless carefully sealed. Even then, lots of bugs make quick work of plastic > to get inside. Flour, rice, beans - they keep as "dried" food, and you can > sprout the beans for fresh greens. The advantage of cans is that they > already have water added, and insects cannot penetrate. 6 months worth of > cans takes up surprisingly little room, and stored low they double as > ballast. > > I don't rely on friends, or the CBC to tell me about the world. I've lived > in close to 100 different countries over the years, including some of the > wildest, most remote places on earth. Remember "Pulau Tiga", the first > survivor show? It's on the north coast of Borneo, between KK and Labuan. > I've been there 1/2 dozen times, with my wife, kids, and dog. > > Show up with a gun aboard in a foreign country. Declare it and it will be > impounded. You might get it back when you leave. Don't declare it, if they > find the gun you are facing a fine, prison, and in one country the death > penalty. > > Use an undeclared gun to go hunting? Get caught, you will at a minimum pay > big $$, way more than what it costs to buy the meat. More likely you will > do a couple of weeks in jail and be deported with a record, never allowed to > return, if they don't impound your boat for smuggling weapons. > > There are two types of cruisers. Those that pay their way and those that > live off the land. It is the second group that have given cruisers a bad > reputation in many places, because they add nothing. Rather they are > competing with the (typically poor) locals for already scarce food and work. > > > The first boat to visit a remote location is often greeted warmly. Lots of > gifts. Having taken everything freely available, the boat then leaves > nothing in return. The next boat to visit gets broken into when they > arrive, everything stolen. This is a common story, repeated many times > through history. > > If you are going to cruise, make sure you can pay your own way. Don't rely > on the good will of the locals, because for sure it has limits. You may not > have a problem, but you may well cause one for the next boat to visit. Lots > of places, cruising boats are not welcome, because all too often boats > before have leeched off the local economy. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Dried food is a much wiser choice for cruisers. You can fit a years > supply in a tiny space. > Greg reminds me of a politico who naivly told me that nobody lives of > hunting anymore. After all doesn't every one live in a condo just down > the road from a supermarket? > Friends from the north tell me that 80% of the food up there comes > from hunting. A head of lettuce flown in from the south costs $10, > while they are surrounded by herds of Cariboo numbering in the > thousands. So what do urban condo dwellers think they eat? > I think people like Greg and the politicos need to get out once in a > while , away from the tiny part of the planet which are populated and > into the real world, to cure their naivity. Unfortunatly many > political decisions are based on the assumption that everyone is an > urban dweller. > A series on CBC radio last year called the Canadian Clearances , > compared this to the Scottish Highland Clearances , a war on > subsistence living, by politicoes of all political stripes, to force > people off the land and into the cities ,to leave the land free for > unchallenged resource mining. > Dont be suprised to see this policy extended to cruisers. > James Warren's attempts to provide locals with marine mobility was > strongly opposed by governments. They didn't want the average person > to have that kind of freedom. Gregs position supports their attempts > to block such freedom. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > > > or law. > > > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you > > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to > > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican > > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as > > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not > > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > > > someone plants them. > > > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked > > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens > > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I > > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and > > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, > > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any > > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing > > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging > > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the > > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a > > long while and that it would be nice. > > > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to > > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I > > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them > > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. > > > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the > > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll > > make money. > > > > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds > > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are > > unknown on the US mainland. > > > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always > > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, > > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for > > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes > > of effort. > > > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the > > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom > > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > > > Canned food in > > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much > > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising > > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13314|13189|2007-05-17 19:54:34|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Tahitioa rice is notorious for bugs .Moitessier , who lived there for decades said simply throw a rag soaked in grain alcohol into the container and as it evaporates it will kill both the bugs and their eggs. The same would probably work with most dried stuff.Cheap hooch would probably work too. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Dried food need to be rehydrated, and can spoil quickly in the tropics > unless carefully sealed. Even then, lots of bugs make quick work of plastic > to get inside. Flour, rice, beans - they keep as "dried" food, and you can > sprout the beans for fresh greens. The advantage of cans is that they > already have water added, and insects cannot penetrate. 6 months worth of > cans takes up surprisingly little room, and stored low they double as > ballast. > > I don't rely on friends, or the CBC to tell me about the world. I've lived > in close to 100 different countries over the years, including some of the > wildest, most remote places on earth. Remember "Pulau Tiga", the first > survivor show? It's on the north coast of Borneo, between KK and Labuan. > I've been there 1/2 dozen times, with my wife, kids, and dog. > > Show up with a gun aboard in a foreign country. Declare it and it will be > impounded. You might get it back when you leave. Don't declare it, if they > find the gun you are facing a fine, prison, and in one country the death > penalty. > > Use an undeclared gun to go hunting? Get caught, you will at a minimum pay > big $$, way more than what it costs to buy the meat. More likely you will > do a couple of weeks in jail and be deported with a record, never allowed to > return, if they don't impound your boat for smuggling weapons. > > There are two types of cruisers. Those that pay their way and those that > live off the land. It is the second group that have given cruisers a bad > reputation in many places, because they add nothing. Rather they are > competing with the (typically poor) locals for already scarce food and work. > > > The first boat to visit a remote location is often greeted warmly. Lots of > gifts. Having taken everything freely available, the boat then leaves > nothing in return. The next boat to visit gets broken into when they > arrive, everything stolen. This is a common story, repeated many times > through history. > > If you are going to cruise, make sure you can pay your own way. Don't rely > on the good will of the locals, because for sure it has limits. You may not > have a problem, but you may well cause one for the next boat to visit. Lots > of places, cruising boats are not welcome, because all too often boats > before have leeched off the local economy. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Dried food is a much wiser choice for cruisers. You can fit a years > supply in a tiny space. > Greg reminds me of a politico who naivly told me that nobody lives of > hunting anymore. After all doesn't every one live in a condo just down > the road from a supermarket? > Friends from the north tell me that 80% of the food up there comes > from hunting. A head of lettuce flown in from the south costs $10, > while they are surrounded by herds of Cariboo numbering in the > thousands. So what do urban condo dwellers think they eat? > I think people like Greg and the politicos need to get out once in a > while , away from the tiny part of the planet which are populated and > into the real world, to cure their naivity. Unfortunatly many > political decisions are based on the assumption that everyone is an > urban dweller. > A series on CBC radio last year called the Canadian Clearances , > compared this to the Scottish Highland Clearances , a war on > subsistence living, by politicoes of all political stripes, to force > people off the land and into the cities ,to leave the land free for > unchallenged resource mining. > Dont be suprised to see this policy extended to cruisers. > James Warren's attempts to provide locals with marine mobility was > strongly opposed by governments. They didn't want the average person > to have that kind of freedom. Gregs position supports their attempts > to block such freedom. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and paid > > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part cruising > > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by economics > > > or law. > > > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that you > > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" me to > > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the Dominican > > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could stay as > > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did not > > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you it is > > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees unless > > > someone plants them. > > > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've picked > > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and dozens > > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that I > > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever eat (and > > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, > > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had any > > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: doing > > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, hanging > > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't noticed the > > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a beer in a > > long while and that it would be nice. > > > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast to > > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep water (I > > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned them > > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local restaurant. > > > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash in the > > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, you'll > > make money. > > > > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what kinds > > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these are > > unknown on the US mainland. > > > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent of > > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've always > > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, lobster, > > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and garlic for > > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any extremes > > of effort. > > > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or the > > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and gloom > > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > > > Canned food in > > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, much > > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy cruising > > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13315|13257|2007-05-17 21:06:45|Gary|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Someone out there must have calculated an optimium human population for our times where it would not matter whether humans indulged veggies or meat or both or drove 16 cyl gas guzzlers and lived in mansions. It is just that 6 billion humans can't as we have now overgrazed the range. Most any lifestyle one could contemplate (but not necessarity subscribe to) would be feasible if sustainable to the ample but finite resources of the earth. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Now corporations are doing to the farmers what their ancestors did to > the natives . What goes around comes around . History is repeating > itself. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > > > vegetarians. > > > > Eh ? The buffalo were wiped out in order to starve the indiginous > > population of North America into submission (these days we'd call this > > 'illegal ethnic cleansing'), as the buffalo provided *everything* for > > those indians who hunted 'em - food, clothing, shelter - nothing was > > wasted. So without the buffalo, their lifestyle quickly became no > > longer viable. Land of the Free - for some. > > > > The land which was stolen by the US government was then used for both > > grain production AND rearing livestock - it's not a simple them- and-us > > vegetarian/non-vegetarian issue. > > > > >Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > > > things we do. > > > > Agreed - it enables food production to be controlled, rather than the > > acquisition of food being a 'chance' event. In turn this enables > > large numbers of people to do other things with their lives, rather > > than be constantly pre-occupied with hunting. So the human population > > continues to rise exponentially, as a result of this controlled food > > supply. Many call this human progress. I don't. But then I don't eat > > meat either, although I'd kill and skill a beast for you to eat. Some > > folks call me a vegetarian just because I don't eat meat - I think > > they're nuts, and just into labelling the world about them. > > > > BTW - I don't know why meat eaters don't eat earth-worms and slugs - > > it's all meat after all. Perhaps they draw a line as to what's > > acceptable and what's not ? Then criticise the Koreans for eating > > dogs. Hypocrisy. > > > > Colin > > > | 13316|13189|2007-05-18 00:23:21|Carl Anderson|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Near Nanaimo at Yellow point. Claude wrote: > > > Yes I will be here on Monday & Tuesday of next week. > > Please do stop by and have a look. > > Do you have a HF rig yet? > > I'm on 80M mostly in the mornings. > > > > Carl, WA7PIB/VE7 > > > Where is your boat located? > > | 13317|13189|2007-05-18 00:31:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 11:53:57PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Tahitioa rice is notorious for bugs .Moitessier , who lived there for > decades said simply throw a rag soaked in grain alcohol into the > container and as it evaporates it will kill both the bugs and their > eggs. The same would probably work with most dried stuff.Cheap hooch > would probably work too. If you're not too picky, a bit of extra protein won't bother you. :) However, since you don't want the bugs to eat up all your food (or crap in it), dry ice works really well to kill them. Best of all, get some cat litter in 5-gallon snap-top containers (about $7; use the cat litter to soak up any oil in your engine bilge), and use the containers for flour, etc. Just toss in a little piece of dry ice before closing the lid. Pretty much every kind of food like that once you're out of the "First World" is infested. Beans can (and should) always be picked over; rice should just be bought in bulk before you leave the Mainland. I found that 200lbs of it takes up relatively little space in the bilge (be sure to double-bag it in plastic bags, though) and lasts damn near forever - and can also be traded to other cruisers for other foodstuffs. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13318|13189|2007-05-18 09:45:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|No bugs in first world food? What did they add to kill them? Is it better for you than eating a few bugs? Likely not, though not all bugs improve the taste. Rice, beans they sink to the bottom in water for cooking. Skim the bugs off the top. Flour is a problem. Some boats add bay leaves or similar to the containers, something the bugs don't like the taste of. Food should be stored in thick walled plastic containers with locking lids. The thicker the better. Lots of boats use the blue industrial containers. Plastic bags do not make it, except to separate things. Bugs go right through them. Rhinoceros beetles especially. Rats are another matter. They will eat through just about everything, including the blue industrial containers, sails, inflatable, etc. One boat had them eat through a plastic port cover to get inside. Blue turds on deck, you have a problem. Any time I am at a dock, fueling, rafted up, etc., I put a trap on deck. Almost always I have caught a rat by morning. Lots of times they will come up the anchor in harbor if you don't use a guard. One boat ended up pumping the exhaust from a 4 stroke generator inside on a passage, they couldn't catch the rat. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 11:53:57PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Tahitioa rice is notorious for bugs .Moitessier , who lived there for > decades said simply throw a rag soaked in grain alcohol into the > container and as it evaporates it will kill both the bugs and their > eggs. The same would probably work with most dried stuff.Cheap hooch > would probably work too. If you're not too picky, a bit of extra protein won't bother you. :) However, since you don't want the bugs to eat up all your food (or crap in it), dry ice works really well to kill them. Best of all, get some cat litter in 5-gallon snap-top containers (about $7; use the cat litter to soak up any oil in your engine bilge), and use the containers for flour, etc. Just toss in a little piece of dry ice before closing the lid. Pretty much every kind of food like that once you're out of the "First World" is infested. Beans can (and should) always be picked over; rice should just be bought in bulk before you leave the Mainland. I found that 200lbs of it takes up relatively little space in the bilge (be sure to double-bag it in plastic bags, though) and lasts damn near forever - and can also be traded to other cruisers for other foodstuffs. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13319|13189|2007-05-18 11:51:54|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|Hi Am doing preliminary costings on a 39' replica sailing barge - not sure if origami techniques would get the shallow draft I need.Black steel plate(6mm)is about $1k per ton here in the UK.Prices have doubled over the last few years,variously attributed to the chinese or rising energy costs,although Corus(Ex British steel) are notorious for selling cheaply abroad and expensive at home.How much do you pay in the US of A cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13320|13189|2007-05-18 12:01:26|J Fisher|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|When I had my steel quoted in march it was just over $.40/lb plus shipping. The shipping was almost as much as the steel. I was just over 8k delivered for 10,000lbs. John -------Original Message------- From: ANDREW AIREY Date: 5/18/2007 8:51:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat costs - what are they? Hi Am doing preliminary costings on a 39' replica sailing barge - not sure if origami techniques would get the shallow draft I need.Black steel plate(6mm)is about $1k per ton here in the UK.Prices have doubled over the last few years,variously attributed to the chinese or rising energy costs,although Corus(Ex British steel) are notorious for selling cheaply abroad and expensive at home.How much do you pay in the US of A cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13321|13257|2007-05-18 12:50:48|ANDREW AIREY|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Sooner or later something will come along to redress the balance - the current favourite seems to be bird flu - but massive social breakdown,triggered off by,say,energy shortages might be just as effective.Or any one of a number of other things.The political implications are frightening because it implies a descent into a more totalitarian,controlled way of life where things cannot be allowed to go wrong for fear that the system would grind to a halt.Once the squirrel cage stops revolving we all fall in a heap to the bottom.A more primitive economy can survive a lot of things - you proved that in Vietnam - but I've been wondering lately how we would cope in the UK if we were ever faced with a WWII type situation(not including atomic weapons) or even a really massive terrorist campaign.Back then the economy was basically coal powered with 100s of mines in production and most industries of any size producing their own power requirements.Now we have the national grid for electricity fed by by about 30-40 power stations and oil refined in about the same number of installations and it doesn't give you much choice in the way of targets.Better off thinking about boatbuilding cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13322|13280|2007-05-18 14:32:26|mark hamill|Re: vegetables|You guys might make some money here. I can see the Marquee--"The Carnivorous Boatman meets the Lentil of Death". Mark H. > I have a key to the Comox Valley Boxing club where I train. If you are > in the area, send me an email well in advance and we can do a few > rounds of sporting activity in the ring. Just for sport , you understand. > Brent > | 13323|13189|2007-05-18 18:20:47|brentswain38|Re: Boat costs - what are they?|On vancouver Island some companies run a truck up once a week and thus the quote they give you includes shipping on southern Vancouver Island. For oher companies it doesn't . Check that out in your area. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > When I had my steel quoted in march it was just over $.40/lb plus shipping. > The shipping was almost as much as the steel. I was just over 8k delivered > for 10,000lbs. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: ANDREW AIREY > Date: 5/18/2007 8:51:55 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat costs - what are they? > > Hi > Am doing preliminary costings on a 39' replica sailing > barge - not sure if origami techniques would get the > shallow draft I need.Black steel plate(6mm)is about > $1k per ton here in the UK.Prices have doubled over > the last few years,variously attributed to the chinese > or rising energy costs,although Corus(Ex British > steel) are notorious for selling cheaply abroad and > expensive at home.How much do you pay in the US of A > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13324|13189|2007-05-18 18:27:17|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|There was a place in Nanaimo thta siold Made in India ( non magnetic ) stainless containers which were perfect for dry food storage. Unfortunatly they closed. I onced mentioned the use of nitrogen storage for dry stuff to a welding supply place and they said "Bring your thermos and we'll fil it up with liquid nitrogen for you." Plants need C02( mold)Animals need oxygen. Nothing lives in straight nitrogen. Ditto for alcohol, except BC and Alberta premiers, and US presidents. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > No bugs in first world food? What did they add to kill them? Is it better > for you than eating a few bugs? Likely not, though not all bugs improve the > taste. Rice, beans they sink to the bottom in water for cooking. Skim the > bugs off the top. Flour is a problem. Some boats add bay leaves or similar > to the containers, something the bugs don't like the taste of. > > Food should be stored in thick walled plastic containers with locking lids. > The thicker the better. Lots of boats use the blue industrial containers. > Plastic bags do not make it, except to separate things. Bugs go right > through them. Rhinoceros beetles especially. Rats are another matter. > They will eat through just about everything, including the blue industrial > containers, sails, inflatable, etc. One boat had them eat through a plastic > port cover to get inside. Blue turds on deck, you have a problem. > > Any time I am at a dock, fueling, rafted up, etc., I put a trap on deck. > Almost always I have caught a rat by morning. Lots of times they will come > up the anchor in harbor if you don't use a guard. One boat ended up pumping > the exhaust from a 4 stroke generator inside on a passage, they couldn't > catch the rat. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 11:53:57PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Tahitioa rice is notorious for bugs .Moitessier , who lived there for > > decades said simply throw a rag soaked in grain alcohol into the > > container and as it evaporates it will kill both the bugs and their > > eggs. The same would probably work with most dried stuff.Cheap hooch > > would probably work too. > > If you're not too picky, a bit of extra protein won't bother you. :) > However, since you don't want the bugs to eat up all your food (or crap > in it), dry ice works really well to kill them. Best of all, get some > cat litter in 5-gallon snap-top containers (about $7; use the cat litter > to soak up any oil in your engine bilge), and use the containers for > flour, etc. Just toss in a little piece of dry ice before closing the > lid. > > Pretty much every kind of food like that once you're out of the "First > World" is infested. Beans can (and should) always be picked over; rice > should just be bought in bulk before you leave the Mainland. I found > that 200lbs of it takes up relatively little space in the bilge (be sure > to double-bag it in plastic bags, though) and lasts damn near forever - > and can also be traded to other cruisers for other foodstuffs. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13325|13288|2007-05-18 19:59:40|Leigh Giles|Re: Alex's boat|Thanks for the input guys. I'll listen to the voices of experience. regards Leigh| 13326|13294|2007-05-18 21:23:30|greg elliott|Re: Rust around the ports!|Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is able to handle expansion/contraction. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had > ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools bit. > No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > wrote: > > > > Hey gang! > > > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your ports? > > > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to blast/grind the > > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. > > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I imagine that > > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the culprit. > > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can be > > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat bead of > > 5200 around them. > > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! > > > > Jon > > S/V Tortue in Seattle > > > | 13327|13294|2007-05-18 22:56:21|greg elliott|Re: Rust around the ports!|More: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/dealing_with_leaks.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had > ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools bit. > No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > wrote: > > > > Hey gang! > > > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your ports? > > > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to blast/grind the > > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. > > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I imagine that > > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the culprit. > > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can be > > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat bead of > > 5200 around them. > > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! > > > > Jon > > S/V Tortue in Seattle > > > | 13328|13294|2007-05-18 23:08:46|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rust around the ports!|On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 01:21:44AM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the > window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is > able to handle expansion/contraction. > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm The recommended method works very well, according to a fellow boater who's used it for a long time now. He uses a generous amount of 3M 5200, then inserts an 1/8" SS wire between the two surfaces - along the edges, *not* across the bedding strip - and leaves it in place for a week (usually, his bedded joints are also connected by screws, which he puts in somewhat loosely.) Then, he removes the "shims" and tightens the screws. As a result, the cured bedding compound forms a thick gasket between the surfaces - and the additional clamping compresses that gasket. According to him, he hasn't had a leak in twenty years on any joints he's made that way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13329|13294|2007-05-19 02:28:47|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Rust around the ports!|Hi, I also use that method and have had equally good results. Paul Thompson Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 01:21:44AM -0000, greg elliott wrote: >> Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the >> window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is >> able to handle expansion/contraction. >> >> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm > > The recommended method works very well, according to a fellow boater > who's used it for a long time now. He uses a generous amount of 3M 5200, > then inserts an 1/8" SS wire between the two surfaces - along the edges, > *not* across the bedding strip - and leaves it in place for a week > (usually, his bedded joints are also connected by screws, which he puts > in somewhat loosely.) Then, he removes the "shims" and tightens the > screws. As a result, the cured bedding compound forms a thick gasket > between the surfaces - and the additional clamping compresses that > gasket. According to him, he hasn't had a leak in twenty years on any > joints he's made that way. > > | 13330|13330|2007-05-19 10:47:18|mkriley@fuse.net|rust around the ports|I have had very good results with the self amalgamating rubber tape found in hardware stores that is used for waterproofing flashing and such. just cut a gasket of it and don't over tighten it. it has a oil in it that will stop bare steel from rusting , unlike most caulking that causes rusting , There is minor bleed out for awhile but easily cleaned with spirits. Cheap, easy to use and store. I have had some in use for ~10 years never a failure in that time and anytime I have removed a fitting the rubber was in great shape. good also for mast boots as long as you use a canvas cover. mike| 13331|13294|2007-05-19 16:50:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Rust around the ports!|I once did a lot of research on the use of silicone sealants for a project I was involved in. The customer wanted to seal an aluminum rail some 350 feet long down to concrete with a water tight seal. What I found out was that silicone can tolerate +- 100% of the sealant thickness in shear. So if you have a bead that is 1/16" thick it will tolerate expansion and contraction of the aluminum or bronze port with respect to the steel hull +- 1/16". Just apply the coefficients of linear expansion for the two materials over the length of your ports and for the temperature range expected to get the minimum thickness of sealant required. I was replacing some ports on an old fiberglass boat once, but lost my job and sold the boat before I finished. My plan was to simply spread some silicone between two sheets of waxed paper and two flat surfaces, like glass, spaced 3/16" apart. When it has cured use a hole punch to cut out round silicone spacers. Use some more silicone to glue them around the port. Spread a generous bead around the whole port and bolt it in, just tightening bolts enough to press the port on to the silicone spacers without flattening them. When all the silicone has cured you should have ports that will remain sealed for the life of the silicone, estimated to be at least 50 years! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rust around the ports! > On Sat, May 19, 2007 at 01:21:44AM -0000, greg elliott wrote: >> Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the >> window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is >> able to handle expansion/contraction. >> >> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm > > The recommended method works very well, according to a fellow boater > who's used it for a long time now. He uses a generous amount of 3M 5200, > then inserts an 1/8" SS wire between the two surfaces - along the edges, > *not* across the bedding strip - and leaves it in place for a week > (usually, his bedded joints are also connected by screws, which he puts > in somewhat loosely.) Then, he removes the "shims" and tightens the > screws. As a result, the cured bedding compound forms a thick gasket > between the surfaces - and the additional clamping compresses that > gasket. According to him, he hasn't had a leak in twenty years on any > joints he's made that way. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13332|13261|2007-05-19 16:57:15|brentswain38|Re: Ethanol (OT)|Patrick Watson summed it up well when he said "Greenpeace doesn't have the balls to talk about overpopulation and immigration as the main source of the problem.When an immigrant moves to an indsutrialised country his personal environmental impact goes up 13 times The obvious answere is to put fewer people on the planet in the fist palce. I volenteerd for that decades ago. Going cruising reduces your personal environmental impact drastically and likewise reduces your dependency on infrastructure. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> The real solution is decreasing usage of fuel. > > > > One of the realities of modern life is that most of us live in cities. > Population density requires the application of energy. The closer we live > together, the higher the standard of living we maintain, the more energy > required per capita. Savings are possible through efficiency, given time > and investment, but this takes money away from other purposes. For example: > A new car may use less fuel, but it takes more fuel to make the new car. > Ultimately to reduce energy usage, some of us have to get off the planet. > Volunteers? > > > > Myself, I'm all for clean burning fuels. Coal burning in India and China is > releasing huge amounts of soot, reducing temperatures in the Indian Ocean. > A switch to cleaner fuels would reduce the rate of solar dimming, increasing > the rate of warming in Canada. We are seeing this now as advanced countries > have cleaned up their fuels, some areas of Canada are now frost free come > July. > > > > Also, we've been hearing that Chinese coal burning is increasing the storms > in Vancouver, just like the Russian nuclear testing changed the weather 50 > years ago, or so the newspapers told us. Clean up China and India, help > warm up Canada, help get rid of the rain in Vancouver, pretty soon we will > have weather like San Diego. Great sailing, year round. Sea level comes up > enough, we'll all have waterfront. Dock the boat right at the house. > > > > Greg > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13333|13257|2007-05-19 17:06:54|brentswain38|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|Kiwi Barry Fells found out that inscriptions as far west as Kansas were Egyptian and Phoeneician in origin. He found evidence of regular trade routes accross the atlantic as far back as 900BC. However, it's still first come first serve. We did live here for 12,000 years and in the proccess did far less damage than the Johnny come latelys from Europe did in the last 100 years . So who has the right to preach about environmental sustainability? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > Your ancestors may have been of European origion, displaced by later > settlers from Asia. For political reasons, research on this > question is prohibited. > > Columbus was not the first person to set foot in North America. Nor > were the people living here when Columbus arrived. Human beings are > explorers. We want to know what is over the next hill, beyond the > sea. Boats were invented long before written history. The record > of human exploration was burried by the ice ages, and is now hidden > behind the ignorance of racism. > > http://193.41.101.59/debates/article.jsp? > id=3&debateId=76&articleId=1623 > > The Kennewick Man, found in 1996 on a riverbank in Washington State, > is one of the many casualties of NAGPRA. Initial studies date it at > around 9,600 years old, proving it to be of paleo-Indian age, and > one of the oldest prehistoric skeletons to be found in North > America. > > Preliminary analysis suggested the bones are not American Indian but > possibly European and the earliest found in this area. But before > further research could be done the bones were confiscated. Under > NAGPRA any human remains found in North America that predate > Columbus's arrival in 1492 are considered American Indian. > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It's hard to imagine a bigger hippocrite than a vegetarian > claiming to > > be environmentally friendly, when they sponsor the creation of huge > > monocultures, whose goal is to wipe out all biodiversity and all > > species but one, over huge areas, using toxic chemicals to reach > that > > goal whenever it's convenient . My ancestors lived of hunting here > for > > over 12,000 years and did far less damage than the farmers did in > the > > last hundred years. The Sahara desert was made by farmers, not > hunters. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed > tyhe > > > vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally > destructive > > > things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were > > > drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on > inorganic > > > > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely > agree that > > > > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables > > present > > > > kinds of behavior). > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > > On Behalf Of Paul > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the > bear and > > > > deer alone > > > > > > > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any > less > > than > > > > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > > > > > > > Paul H. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll > stand by > > > > it- > > > > > enough said! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 13334|13235|2007-05-19 17:10:55|brentswain38|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|Whenever there is a great public concern about an issue like climate change we can expect the opportunists to immediately try sell us on their version of snake oil solutions, like ethanol. Population control is the only real solution. If we dont do it mother nature will do it for us , in a far more brutal manner than birth control.Few mothers were ever less maternal in their solutions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Personally I think the whole ethanol industry in the US is purely political > > pork and has no net effect on emissions once you figure in the amount of > > energy consumed to make the fuel. > > > > Climate change is the new enemy. We all must sacrifice (buy product X) to save the world. Only we never ask who is making big $$ as a result of the hype. > > > > I'm still trying to see what the problem is if Canada was warmer. Most of us complain that it isn't warm enough. 90% of the country the growing season is too short to support agriculture and 11 months of the year the lakes are too cold to swim in. Half the year they are covered with ice, your need a pick axe to go fishing. What sort of a place is that to live? > > > > Warm the place up. Save a bundle on heating in winter, enough to liquor up the car on E85 for the rest of the year, from corn grown in Tuktuyaktuk. Gets hot enough, big $$ selling arctic water to our 300+ million southern neighbors, shipped out in tankers year round via the Northwest Passage. Sea level rises? It isn't like any of us can afford waterfront anyways. > > > > For a cruising boat, the reliability, safety, economy and availability of diesel makes it the fuel of choice. > > > > Greg > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13335|13189|2007-05-19 17:22:53|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|North of the pass at Fanning it was all government land . We were told grab whatever fruit you find there. There were no papayas there, so Cedrick and I planted our leftover seeds there. Now I'm told the area has plenty of papayas. Winston said he knew a cruiser who planted stuff a over the uninhabited islands of the caribean and went back harvesting them regularly. You probaly can't live entirely off the sea and land, but you can make a big dent in it, reducing your reliance on shore infrastructure and thus your environmental impact considerably as well as increasing your freedom time considerably.Staying out of bars and restaurants also considerably increases freedom time , and reduces the power of drug dealers( Booze pedlers) who do no one any favours. In BC huge areas of land belong to the public, of which I am a member. To avoid ciguatera, fish offshore or stick to fish that weigh under a kilo. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > Customs almost always wants duty on a boat if you stay any length of > time. They will seize your weapons, making hunting difficult, even > if you can get a permit. > > Overfishing and ciguatera limit fishing around the reef, barracuda > especially. Losters are a challenge at the best of times, unless > you are up for night diving. > > This has nothing to do with doom and gloom. Cruising is a cost. > Either you pay or someone else pays. Most boats choose to pay their > own way, which in most cases limits the time they can stay out. > Rather than cruising DR for free, living off the land, chasing girls > though the mountains, we find them tied to docks. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2007 at 02:45:56PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Cruising boats in general rely on the infastruture built and > paid > > > for in large part by people living ashore. In large part > cruising > > > boats are not welcome and are forced to move on, either by > economics > > > or law. > > > > Greg, this may well reflect *your* experience, but I'd prefer that > you > > didn't try to generalize it quite so broadly. No one ever "forced" > me to > > move on from any of the places where I cruised; even in the > Dominican > > Republic, which is fairly strict about visas and such, I could > stay as > > long as I wanted ($36 every three months after the initial six did > not > > seem like a huge economic load to me, at least.) > > > > > Having lived on many deserted tropical islands, I can tell you > it is > > > no picnic. Except for coconuts, fruit rarely grows on trees > unless > > > someone plants them. > > > > Really? I gather you've never been to the Caribbean, then. I've > picked > > coconuts, mangos, bananas, papayas, breadfruit, cashew fruit, and > dozens > > of other things from trees growing wild [1]; every single day that > I > > wanted fish, I could dive down and shoot more than I could ever > eat (and > > maybe pick up a spiny lobster or a slipper lobster while I was down > > there.) At one point, while swinging on a hook in Boqueron, Puerto > Rico, > > I happened to notice that I didn't have any cash - and hadn't had > any > > for about three months. My girlfriend and I were busy having fun: > doing > > back-packing trips into the mountains, climbing Cofresi Caves, > hanging > > out and talking with our local friends... in fact, we hadn't > noticed the > > absence of the stuff until she mentioned that she hadn't had a > beer in a > > long while and that it would be nice. > > > > I took a sail outside the reef the next day and ran down the coast > to > > Cabo Rojo, hooked a bunch of barracuda on the edge of the deep > water (I > > used pinfish for bait, which I'd caught with my cast net), cleaned > them > > on the dock, and made almost $100 selling them to a local > restaurant. > > > > Point being, not only can you live for a good while without cash > in the > > islands, but it can be such a non-item that you can actually forget > > about it. In the Caribbean, at least, if you're willing to work, > you'll > > make money. > > > > > > [1] I'm grateful to my Puerto Rican friends for pointing out what > kinds > > of fruit, etc. were edible. According to them, there are almost 400 > > different kinds of fruit growing on the island - and most of these > are > > unknown on the US mainland. > > > > > Insects, snails and mold eat almost everything > > > you plant. The amount of work required to gather the equivalent > of > > > $100 worth of rice, flour or potatoes is staggering. > > > > Yep - assuming you wanted to gather rice, flour, or potatoes on a > > tropical island in the first place. That would be difficult. I've > always > > found that local food was perfectly fine for me; conch, fish, > lobster, > > and /panapen/ - maybe with a little "sower orange", salt, and > garlic for > > flavoring - make a perfectly fine meal, and don't require any > extremes > > of effort. > > > > (No, not every island out there is like the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, > or the > > Dominican Republic - but these constant pronouncements of doom and > gloom > > for cruisers are just a little out of sync with reality.) > > > > > Canned food in > > > large part is what makes cruising to remote locations possible. > > > > Yeah, it's nice to have; however, "makes [it] possible" is, again, > much > > too broad of a statement. Unless, of course, you really enjoy > cruising > > Haiti or some other country with a starvation economy. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 13336|13280|2007-05-19 17:26:09|brentswain38|Re: vegetables|My boat cost me about $6 K to get sailing . I probaly have around 12K into her by now. She is worth over 30K. As I mention in my book, the more you spend on a boat the narrower the gap between what she cost you and what you can get for her.Eventually ,spending more means that she becomes worth less than you spend on her. Greg ,educate yourself and go read my book, especially the part on economics. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > I see a lot of intolerance for other peoples ideas and lifestyle on > this site. A lot of name calling. Good ideas don't need to be > protected in this way. Only bad ideas need this sort of protection. > > I see someone calling someone else names, I know the name caller has > bad ideas. Maybe some of their ideas are good, but their approach > to life, their intolerance for other ideas, that is a type of poison > that limits them. It closes their eyes to other options. > > We are not all the same. What works best for one person will not > work best for another. > > These days, a well built 36 foot amateur boat costs about $100k to > build and takes about 3 years of your time. It will sell when new > for about $100k. Less as the boat ages. We know this based on what > has been published here regarding recent boats. > > If you want to build, build. Building is not about saving money - > because you likely won't. At the end of the day, after everything > is added up, at best most amateur builders break even, with their > time thrown in for free. > > If you want to sail, buy. You will get on the water much quicker, > for about the same cost, with a lot less risk the boat will never be > completed. The time you would have spend building you can work for > wages to earn the money to pay for the boat. If you move aboard you > start saving rent years sooner, further reducing the cost. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > Brent my user name is my real name-I'm in Vancouver-you want to > back > > that up feel free to come find me. In the meantime this site and > you > > are history so write your crap 'cause I won't be reading it so > enjoy > > your self, as I said you want to find me feel free because unlike > the > > bear and deer I'll fight back! > > > | 13337|13235|2007-05-19 18:28:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks|Interesting reading "State of Fear", Crichton. One of the arguments he makes is that we don't know enough to regulate nature. Almost every time we have tried, we have made things worse through unexpected consequences. We think in terms of the "balance" of nature, but nature is not a balanced system. Nature is dynamic, chaotic, unpredictable, which makes it near impossible to regulate. Population control may be a solution, it may result in even worse problems if population shifts lead to instability. No way to predict. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 2:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ethanol and Aluminum Fuel Tanks Whenever there is a great public concern about an issue like climate change we can expect the opportunists to immediately try sell us on their version of snake oil solutions, like ethanol. Population control is the only real solution. If we dont do it mother nature will do it for us , in a far more brutal manner than birth control.Few mothers were ever less maternal in their solutions. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Personally I think the whole ethanol industry in the US is purely political > > pork and has no net effect on emissions once you figure in the amount of > > energy consumed to make the fuel. > > > > Climate change is the new enemy. We all must sacrifice (buy product X) to save the world. Only we never ask who is making big $$ as a result of the hype. > > > > I'm still trying to see what the problem is if Canada was warmer. Most of us complain that it isn't warm enough. 90% of the country the growing season is too short to support agriculture and 11 months of the year the lakes are too cold to swim in. Half the year they are covered with ice, your need a pick axe to go fishing. What sort of a place is that to live? > > > > Warm the place up. Save a bundle on heating in winter, enough to liquor up the car on E85 for the rest of the year, from corn grown in Tuktuyaktuk. Gets hot enough, big $$ selling arctic water to our 300+ million southern neighbors, shipped out in tankers year round via the Northwest Passage. Sea level rises? It isn't like any of us can afford waterfront anyways. > > > > For a cruising boat, the reliability, safety, economy and availability of diesel makes it the fuel of choice. > > > > Greg > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13338|13189|2007-05-20 10:32:34|Paul Liebenberg|Skiff|Any news on your skiff Brent? Not at Walkers, I'll keep looking. Paul| 13339|13189|2007-05-20 11:31:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous life? You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your approach. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13340|13340|2007-05-20 15:29:22|Mike|Kicking around Comox|All, My wife & I spent an interesting week in the Comox area, recently, viewing boats built by the origami construction method, meeting their owners and/or builders, as well as two designers; Brent Swain and Jack Carson. I spent a bit of time welding on Paul Liebenberg's 60' pilothouse, perhaps, the most beautiful boat that I've seen, whether of origami method, or that of more traditional construction methods. I even suggested, a few times, that he give up & sell it to me. No chance! For those who are considering building their own boat for the first time, I highly recommend that they book holidays for visiting this same area. I would suggest, however, that any visitors pack suitable work clothes & expect to donate some labour time, as the builders I met don't have much time to sit around, drinking beer & answering questions. Still, you can gain a better idea of the labour requirements of building a boat by making a "physical contribution" to those who are already progressing in their projects. Amongst others, we viewed a 36' "Swain" boat which Manny has for sale. The interior is being revamped, beautifully, by Tony(McNabb?), someone with a well-earned local reputation as a topnotch joiner. We viewed Alex's shell & another boat - I believe that it was built by Evan Shaler - which is now owned by Julian & Sonya.(Sorry not to have been able to help you out with the stainless work, Julian, but we were just too busy. That old guy on the property, Jim, is a retired welder, does nice work, and would probably help you out for a reasonable price.) Based on my recent experiences, I would suggest that Brent's assertion as to how fast one could build their own boat, must be accurate. True, many of the boats which I viewed have been "in the making" for significant periods of time. Still, one must consider that these boats are being built by working men and women, who have little significant labour time to offer their projects on a continuous basis. One point which I want to make to other prospective builders is best illustrated by Paul Liebenberg's project. Unlike other boat projects which I viewed, Paul took the time to protect his project with plastic & lumber. When inside the hull, welding, I did not experience a drop of rain water. The deck remained dry, as well. Though I would have prefered to have seen all joints sprayed with weld-through primer after welding, the result of Paul's homemade roof has protected his boat, admirably. Now, if only he can convince Candice(his Girlfriend) to get her hands dirty!(lol) For now, I am back at the drydock, cutting & shaping steel for the new Bowen Island ferry. Good thing I took the break, they are expecting us to construct the bow & stern sections in 35 working days! At the end of this build, I will be either re-locating to Prince George to develop my property & build a boat, or to the Philippines, for the same. Thanks to those we met on our vacation, for their advice and allowing us some insight into their lifestyles. Our trip was a real education. Cheers to all! Mike Graham| 13341|13341|2007-05-20 16:17:49|gerhard.petermeier@arcor.de|Dedate account to origamiboat|Please no emails Thank you Viel oder wenig? Schnell oder langsam? Unbegrenzt surfen + telefonieren ohne Zeit- und Volumenbegrenzung? DAS TOP ANGEBOT JETZT bei Arcor: günstig und schnell mit DSL - das All-Inclusive-Paket für clevere Doppel-Sparer, nur 39,85 € inkl. DSL- und ISDN-Grundgebühr! http://www.arcor.de/rd/emf-dsl-2| 13342|13342|2007-05-20 21:22:05|Aaron|Hatch openings|Carl Did you use stainless steel for all of the hatch openings? What was the thickness? Did you use 4" for mouring bits on the bow I see 3" on the stern. I can see the more I look at your boat, I realize that my cost for materials is lacking a few things. Little things like the edging around the cabin top,and I ordered 304ss and maybe should have ordered 316. Big deference in price for sure. Keep up the great work Aaron| 13343|13343|2007-05-22 14:35:05|Aaron|Rudder for BS36|Brent What is the recomended pipe incert size for the rudder?| 13344|13343|2007-05-22 17:45:52|brentswain38|Re: Rudder for BS36|-1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent > > What is the recomended pipe incert size for the rudder? > | 13345|13294|2007-05-22 17:50:54|brentswain38|Re: Rust around the ports!|I've thought about stretching an O ring around the bolts, gooping it up good, then tightening it . The o ring will restrict how much goop you can squeeze out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the > window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is > able to handle expansion/contraction. > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm > > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had > > ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools > bit. > > No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey gang! > > > > > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your > ports? > > > > > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to > blast/grind the > > > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. > > > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I > imagine that > > > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the > culprit. > > > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can > be > > > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat > bead of > > > 5200 around them. > > > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! > > > > > > Jon > > > S/V Tortue in Seattle > > > > > > | 13346|13189|2007-05-22 17:53:00|brentswain38|Re: Skiff|No sign of it yet. Someone told me that theieves stole a wheelchair ramp here for the scrap aluminium in it. I've also been told of successful ways of getting even with thieves . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > > Any news on your skiff Brent? Not at Walkers, I'll keep looking. > Paul > | 13347|13343|2007-05-22 17:59:20|Aaron Williams|Re: Rudder for BS36|Thank you brentswain38 wrote: -1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent > > What is the recomended pipe incert size for the rudder? > --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13348|13342|2007-05-22 18:01:18|brentswain38|Re: Hatch openings|I started out with mild steel around the forehatch . It rusted out completely and had to ber replaced. I'll never do that again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > Carl > > Did you use stainless steel for all of the hatch openings? > What was the thickness? Did you use 4" for mouring bits on the bow I > see 3" on the stern. > > I can see the more I look at your boat, I realize that my cost for > materials is lacking a few things. > Little things like the edging around the cabin top,and I ordered 304ss > and maybe should have ordered 316. Big deference in price for sure. > Keep up the great work > Aaron > | 13349|13189|2007-05-22 18:01:41|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of interest in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion of our time, consumerism.. Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous > life? > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your > approach. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13350|13294|2007-05-22 20:14:01|Tom|Re: Rust around the ports!|On my 26 the inside window frame is recest 1/4" , useing 3/16" windows, the outside trim is 3/16" aluminum and overlaps a bit to the outside. When bolted in place there is no direct pressure on glass, it floats a bit between . Figure when it goes together the final time a thin layer of the black window goop on both sides should seal it from leaks and let the window move without cracking Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rust around the ports! > I've thought about stretching an O ring around the bolts, gooping it > up good, then tightening it . The o ring will restrict how much goop > you can squeeze out. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: >> >> Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the >> window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is >> able to handle expansion/contraction. >> >> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm >> >> >> Greg >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >> > >> > Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had >> > ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools >> bit. >> > No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. >> > Brent >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hey gang! >> > > >> > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your >> ports? >> > > >> > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to >> blast/grind the >> > > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. >> > > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I >> imagine that >> > > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the >> culprit. >> > > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can >> be >> > > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat >> bead of >> > > 5200 around them. >> > > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! >> > > >> > > Jon >> > > S/V Tortue in Seattle >> > > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13351|13189|2007-05-22 22:10:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that spoil things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and sell it to a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are breaking the law. No different in foreign countries. We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money and break our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They don't like foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have spoiled lots of places for everyone else. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of interest in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion of our time, consumerism.. Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous > life? > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your > approach. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13352|13189|2007-05-22 23:30:54|Mike|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Sort of like people going to developing countries to exploit cheap labour, to the benefit of their own pocket. They give so little, yet, gain so much. Because they give a little, they feel morally superior to the one who gave nothing. When they feel the need to vocally pass judgement on their perceived inferior, it becomes tiresome. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that spoil > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and sell it to > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are breaking the > law. No different in foreign countries. > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money and break > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They don't like > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have spoiled > lots of places for everyone else. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of interest > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > of our time, consumerism.. > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous > > life? > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your > > approach. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13353|13189|2007-05-23 03:03:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Buy fish from the local fisherman, you are helping him clothe his kids. Catch fish and sell it to the local restaurant, and you have taken his job away from him. In the first case, he is happy to see you. In the second, he resents you. Don't be surprised if the same fisherman cuts your dinghy free in the night or steals your outboard. This isn't about judging anyone. It is just plain common sense, one small example of why local people get pissed of with cruising boats, which leads to problems like theft. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Sort of like people going to developing countries to exploit cheap labour, to the benefit of their own pocket. They give so little, yet, gain so much. Because they give a little, they feel morally superior to the one who gave nothing. When they feel the need to vocally pass judgement on their perceived inferior, it becomes tiresome. Mike --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that spoil > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and sell it to > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are breaking the > law. No different in foreign countries. > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money and break > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They don't like > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have spoiled > lots of places for everyone else. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of interest > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > of our time, consumerism.. > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous > > life? > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your > > approach. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13354|13288|2007-05-23 03:29:57|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leigh Giles" wrote: > > Thanks for the input guys. > > I'll listen to the voices of experience. If you want to talk steel boats etc, I'm just south of Hobart, probably start on one next year now I have the shed finished. This email address is good, I just don't check it very often so if you do write, don't be surprised if there's a delay. Sometimes I'm away off the net for months, too. A bare hull is about 20-25% of the job. Sad but true. PDW| 13355|13355|2007-05-23 11:09:21|jnikadie|zinc stud placement|I understand I need stainless studs for 4 zincs on my Swain 36: - starboard keel - port keel - skeg - rudder what size studs should I be welding on, and how far apart should they be? thanks, Julian.| 13356|13355|2007-05-23 16:05:30|mickeyolaf|Re: zinc stud placement|I would like to tag onto this question for my aluminum SW 36. What size of Zinc? No teardrop near the bow? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I understand I need stainless studs for 4 zincs on my Swain 36: > > - starboard keel > - port keel > - skeg > - rudder > > what size studs should I be welding on, and how far apart should they be? > > thanks, > Julian. > | 13357|13355|2007-05-23 16:34:54|Aaron Williams|Re: zinc stud placement|Mickey They make zinks with aluminun weld on tabs. I put a 4" X 6"x 1" on the transom of my 22' aluminum power boat. I was told then if I left it in the harbor to put 2 on and and it should be good for 1 year. Homer, Alaska harbor has been called a hot zone before. Aaron mickeyolaf wrote: I would like to tag onto this question for my aluminum SW 36. What size of Zinc? No teardrop near the bow? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I understand I need stainless studs for 4 zincs on my Swain 36: > > - starboard keel > - port keel > - skeg > - rudder > > what size studs should I be welding on, and how far apart should they be? > > thanks, > Julian. > --------------------------------- You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13358|13294|2007-05-23 16:43:34|mickeyolaf|Re: Rust around the ports!|I have had really good luck bedding fittings and ports. I have circled each bolt with sealant and a good thick center bead 1/2 inch in from the perimeter of whatever object I am putting down. I then tighten only until I see movement of the bedding compound. I then come back in a week and tighten it down compressing the seal flatter at the edges which expands the seal and also tightens it around the bolts. No messy squeezeout to clean up. No leaks. No metal to metal contact. On stainless to aluminum I paint liquid urethane on the stainless, let it dry hard then bed. No stainless near the aluminum. I also use nylon washers under the stainless ones to further isolate metals. The only problem is once u open the can of urethane u have to use it sooner than later as it hardenes no matter how u reseal the can. I have been using "Rule" marine sealants. They skim over fast and aren't messy like polysulphides. - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've thought about stretching an O ring around the bolts, gooping it > up good, then tightening it . The o ring will restrict how much goop > you can squeeze out. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > Also, the more you tighten the bolts when first installing the > > window, the thinner it squeezes the bedding compound, the less it is > > able to handle expansion/contraction. > > > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm > > > > > > Greg > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Doug used permatex ultra black and said it is the first time he had > > > ports that didn't leak. I had good luck with it, but it drools > > bit. > > > No problem, wipe the drool offfrom time to time. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey gang! > > > > > > > > Has anyone else noticed cracking paint and rust around your > > ports? > > > > > > > > Only three years from launch and I'm going to have to > > blast/grind the > > > > paint from the steel around all of my ports and repaint. > > > > Water has entered cracks in the paint around the ports. I > > imagine that > > > > the swelling and contracting of the beding silicone is the > > culprit. > > > > I'm hoping that the swelling/contracting of the port sealant can > > be > > > > cured by retightening the port screws and the applying a fat > > bead of > > > > 5200 around them. > > > > Any ideas would be more than welcome!! > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > S/V Tortue in Seattle > > > > > > > > > > | 13359|13355|2007-05-23 19:23:05|Mike|Re: zinc stud placement|Julian, It depends on the size of anodes which you plan to use. Sorry I couldn't hook up with you when I was up there. BTW, I had a look at your boat from the outside. very nice, one of the best examples I've viewed. Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I understand I need stainless studs for 4 zincs on my Swain 36: > > - starboard keel > - port keel > - skeg > - rudder > > what size studs should I be welding on, and how far apart should they be? > > thanks, > Julian. > | 13360|13360|2007-05-23 22:11:48|Gary|Rail Mount VHF|....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up a bit. I will be putting an antenna on top of mast. I have no other communications example....SSB but would like to. I plan an offshore trip so I am looking into my options. Some specifics of antenna type, wire, mounting ...etc. Is VHF and SSB sufficient. Is top of the mast best place? I am not interested in sat tv or email etc but would be content with just the basics. Thanks in advance... Gary| 13361|13360|2007-05-24 00:50:29|Carl Anderson|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Get an HF amateur radio station & license if you are going offshore. Also get a marine SSB radio as there are advantages of that as well. You can get one radio that will work for both. You will need to have an insulated backstay and an antenna tuner to make it work properly. The marine nets will give you great information regarding weather. As for your VHF radio be sure to use quality RG8 coax. The white marine stuff is quite good as it has good shielding braid and all the internal wire is tinned. As for an antenna for VHF they make ones specific for mast top installations. They are 1/2 wave end fed with an impedance matching coil at the base. Do not use a 5/8 wave antenna (looks very similar) at mast top as they require a ground plane that does not exist up there. Where are you going? Carl Gary wrote: > > ....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up > a bit. I will be putting an antenna on top of mast. I have no other > communications example....SSB but would like to. I plan an offshore > trip so I am looking into my options. Some specifics of antenna type, > wire, mounting ...etc. Is VHF and SSB sufficient. Is top of the mast > best place? I am not interested in sat tv or email etc but would be > content with just the basics. > > Thanks in advance... > Gary > > | 13362|13360|2007-05-24 01:04:24|silascrosby|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a great job. For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve| 13363|13360|2007-05-24 09:58:36|Carl Anderson|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Steve, Thanks for stopping by and chatting Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very easy to do. You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower HF bands. With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 feet of antenna. I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can do the wire splicing for the eyes that go through. This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm in Utah. Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking wire eyes. This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that point (the sailing rig). Later, Carl silascrosby wrote: > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a > great job. > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > | 13364|13360|2007-05-24 12:37:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Rail Mount VHF|For offshore: 1) Make the antenna 10 meters long. 2) Get an amateur license (and SSB license) 4) Install a ham rig (modified to do all bands and SSB) + tuner 5) Install a Pactor 2 or higher modem 6) Install a notebook computer for Airmail 7) Sign up with winlink for personal, sailmail for business Airmail is free, it will deliver email to keep in touch, automatically update your position reports on the web, and deliver gib files for weather. http://winlink.org/ Sailmail does much the same, but it is subscription (fee) based and does not have the same coverage. It does not require an amateur license. Compared to going ashore to communicate, or trying to keep in touch via voice nets or cell phone, Pactor is a huge leap forward for offshore yachts. Pactor will get through when voice will not. Even in remote locations, you typically can get out in the morning and evening on HF. That means twice a day you can send/receive email, position reports, and weather updates. Friends and family want to locate you, they simply click on the winlink web-site, and a map appears giving your position, and the date and time last reported. This can be a huge comfort to those ashore, as well as a life saver should something go wrong. An amateur license is not hard to get. The requirements are much easier than they used to be. http://www.arrl.org/fcc/fcclook.php3?call=ac7he Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:57 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rail Mount VHF Steve, Thanks for stopping by and chatting Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very easy to do. You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower HF bands. With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 feet of antenna. I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can do the wire splicing for the eyes that go through. This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm in Utah. Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking wire eyes. This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that point (the sailing rig). Later, Carl silascrosby wrote: > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a > great job. > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13365|13365|2007-05-24 16:38:17|heretic_37ft|What do you think about Iridium telephone/data service for western |Dear Origami people: What do you think about Iridium telephone/data service for western Pacific communications? It looks like prices are very reasonable! I know that communications are still regulated in some countries. http://www.outfittersatellite.com/iridium.htm Our Swain 37 is absolutely perfect. Thank you Brent! Respectfully, Yet another Heretic| 13366|13189|2007-05-24 21:37:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just cautioning that not accurate to say, as the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% including steel. Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. Anyone want to tell me that it's not less than scrap price? PDW| 13367|13189|2007-05-25 02:09:37|aaron riis|sandblasting|hi, all i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it works well so long as its not off of the beach. should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was wheel and primed. Aaron --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > including steel. > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > than scrap price? > > PDW > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/| 13368|13189|2007-05-25 13:20:52|put_to_sea|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Maybe - maybe not. It depends on where you have to haul it to sell it and what it costs to cut it up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just cautioning that not accurate to say, as > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% including steel. > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > than scrap price? > > PDW > | 13369|13369|2007-05-25 16:04:51|Jonathan Stevens|Keel Cooling|Well Carl, I wish you'd got round to pressure testing your skeg for keel cooling earlier! I never thought of doing so and welded up my keel with a cooling tank in on one side. I didn't think there could be a problem, after all I learned to weld at school over thirty years ago. However. Evan's comment about not doing one yet that didn't leak got me setting up an air test at between 5 and 10 pounds. Little bubbles everywhere! Some impossible to get a welding rod to. Damn. I am thinking I'll have to try some "Radweld" as used by all we lads when we were lads and running old cars on short pockets. We used to mix it with hot water to get the job done faster, so maybe I'll try that and test again before I cut the side of the keel off to get in there to do the job properly.As I've ordered the steel for the hull which should arrive any day now, that is what I want to be getting on with, not repairing my previous mistakes. I do feel my "do the job properly" conscience pricking though. The moral of the story? Check what you have been up to with Moonflower before I do anything else. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13370|13189|2007-05-25 16:54:22|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|Don't waste your money on store bought sand. That's a scam.Just use anything that doesn't have salt water on it. Screen it well thru a window screen and make sure it's super dry before using it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > hi, all > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it > works well so long as its not off of the beach. > should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was > wheel and primed. > Aaron > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > > including steel. > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > than scrap price? > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > | 13371|13371|2007-05-25 16:54:36|morechance65|Baby, your ideas on me, a charming bi girl¡¯s photo?|Baby, what's your ideas on my photos? sexy? need more passion? what's more? I would like to share my photos with you. But I am not sure if you are interested in me. If you do wish to have a look, I would like to show more to you, okay? Register here first, there will be more fun. http://bemyside93.bravehost.com| 13372|13189|2007-05-25 17:03:07|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing up here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object to is a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling them to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore and pick the makins of a cup of tea? In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional right to catch what we need. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that spoil > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and sell it to > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are breaking the > law. No different in foreign countries. > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money and break > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They don't like > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have spoiled > lots of places for everyone else. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of interest > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > of our time, consumerism.. > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your cruising. > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a previous > > life? > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if that's > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the majority of us > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then you're > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every single > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The fact that > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the fact > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding that air > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an old, frail > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero-sum game. > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for others > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking with your > > approach. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13373|13189|2007-05-25 17:06:52|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|This is what you are supporting when you shop at Wal Mart,Home Depot, , McDonalds etc. Thus those who consume more ( like landlubbers and those on the treadmill that so sanctimonoiously suggest that we should all be forced onto) make a far greater contribution to this ongoing abuse. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Sort of like people going to developing countries to exploit cheap > labour, to the benefit of their own pocket. They give so little, yet, > gain so much. Because they give a little, they feel morally superior > to the one who gave nothing. When they feel the need to vocally pass > judgement on their perceived inferior, it becomes tiresome. > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that > spoil > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and > sell it to > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > breaking the > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money > and break > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They > don't like > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have > spoiled > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > interest > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > > of our time, consumerism.. > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > cruising. > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > previous > > > life? > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if > that's > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > majority of us > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then > you're > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > single > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > fact that > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the > fact > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding > that air > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > old, frail > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- sum > game. > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for > others > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking > with your > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13374|13355|2007-05-25 17:15:04|brentswain38|Re: zinc stud placement|I'd use 3/8th inch SS bolts . I'd put a bit of stainless weld around the hole so the contact doesn't have to be made thru rusty steel on the strap. I'd put a small tack on the end of the strap whenever possible to make a guaranteed contact with the hull. Bolted on zincs often completely fail to maintain contact. Spacing is not that important. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I understand I need stainless studs for 4 zincs on my Swain 36: > > - starboard keel > - port keel > - skeg > - rudder > > what size studs should I be welding on, and how far apart should they be? > > thanks, > Julian. > | 13375|13360|2007-05-25 17:19:08|brentswain38|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Does ten meters exactly give a close match on most ham bands? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > For offshore: > > 1) Make the antenna 10 meters long. > 2) Get an amateur license (and SSB license) > 4) Install a ham rig (modified to do all bands and SSB) + tuner > 5) Install a Pactor 2 or higher modem > 6) Install a notebook computer for Airmail > 7) Sign up with winlink for personal, sailmail for business > > Airmail is free, it will deliver email to keep in touch, automatically > update your position reports on the web, and deliver gib files for weather. > > http://winlink.org/ > > Sailmail does much the same, but it is subscription (fee) based and does not > have the same coverage. It does not require an amateur license. > > Compared to going ashore to communicate, or trying to keep in touch via > voice nets or cell phone, Pactor is a huge leap forward for offshore yachts. > Pactor will get through when voice will not. > > Even in remote locations, you typically can get out in the morning and > evening on HF. That means twice a day you can send/receive email, position > reports, and weather updates. Friends and family want to locate you, they > simply click on the winlink web-site, and a map appears giving your > position, and the date and time last reported. This can be a huge comfort > to those ashore, as well as a life saver should something go wrong. > > An amateur license is not hard to get. The requirements are much easier > than they used to be. > > > http://www.arrl.org/fcc/fcclook.php3?call=ac7he > > > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:57 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rail Mount VHF > > > > Steve, > > Thanks for stopping by and chatting > Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very easy > to do. > You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower HF bands. > With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 feet > of antenna. > I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can do the > wire splicing for the eyes that go through. > This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm in Utah. > Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking wire eyes. > This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that point > (the sailing rig). > > Later, > Carl > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a > > great job. > > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid > > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13376|13360|2007-05-25 17:22:43|brentswain38|Re: Rail Mount VHF|I've often heard of those ceramic insulators breaking and letting the rigging go dangerously slack. Not a good idea. I've made copies of them by cramming a clear plastic bottle with fibreglass and resin, then drilling them out to make insulators. Much stronger and more reliable. I put a piece of wire on the bottom of my 38.5 foot backstay, to make up the right length for the 80 meter band and hung it alongside with a tie off to the other back stay to give some separation. I communicated on 80 meters a couple of days ago, so it worked. My other backstay is insulated to avoid it interfering. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Steve, > > Thanks for stopping by and chatting > Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very easy > to do. > You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower HF bands. > With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 feet > of antenna. > I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can do the > wire splicing for the eyes that go through. > This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm in Utah. > Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking wire eyes. > This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that point > (the sailing rig). > > Later, > Carl > > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a > > great job. > > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid > > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > > > > | 13377|13189|2007-05-25 17:34:01|Tony Lester|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in the keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia AU $1,780.00 (Approximately US $1,460.85) Reserve not met about 100 km from the coast. Lets start a contest.... So how much to finish? BOAT??? $2000 Moving to Work area $1000 Cleaning $500 Rust Removal $500 Priming $500 Paint $500 Running Gear $3000 Mast $2000 Rigging $3000 Sail $4000 Controls $1000 electronics $2000 Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong place $1000 Fixing Stuff because someone put it in wrong. $1000 Rent for 2 years or more $10,000 Putting boat in Water $1000 ======== 43,000 - top of my head number I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in Australia, I dont live there =========================================================== I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, some rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running gear even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location also. Less money + less down time = more cruising =====================================| 13378|13189|2007-05-25 21:34:33|r_graffi|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Way off the mark. At least double those figures for some items and 3 or 4 times for most of the rest. The design is a Yawl with no stringers frames are at about 1.5 metre centres and are only 1 inch angle. The rust is along the ballast pour which is only steel bar and cement which will have to be removed to repair there are no plans not even a free hand drawing. So we will see what happens but not really a bargain Lots of compromises. LOL RG Tony Lester wrote: > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in the > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia > AU $1,780.00 > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > Reserve not met > about 100 km from the coast. > > Lets start a contest.... > > So how much to finish? > BOAT??? > $2000 > Moving to Work area > $1000 > Cleaning > $500 > Rust > Removal > $500 > Priming > $500 > Paint > $500 > Running Gear > $3000 > Mast > $2000 > Rigging > $3000 > Sail > $4000 > Controls > $1000 > electronics > $2000 > Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong > place $1000 > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > wrong. $1000 > Rent for 2 years or > more $10,000 > Putting boat in > Water > $1000 > > ======== > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in > Australia, I dont live there > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= == > I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, some > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running gear > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > ============ ========= ========= ======= > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/818 - Release Date: 5/25/2007 12:32 PM > | 13379|13360|2007-05-25 21:50:47|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Rail Mount VHF|One question about the HF amateur radio & station and license. What is the difference between that and registering your boat with the FCC for a marine SSB which with give you an MMSI# and also be registered to your EPIRB. Thanks Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF Get an HF amateur radio station & license if you are going offshore. Also get a marine SSB radio as there are advantages of that as well. You can get one radio that will work for both. You will need to have an insulated backstay and an antenna tuner to make it work properly. The marine nets will give you great information regarding weather. As for your VHF radio be sure to use quality RG8 coax. The white marine stuff is quite good as it has good shielding braid and all the internal wire is tinned. As for an antenna for VHF they make ones specific for mast top installations. They are 1/2 wave end fed with an impedance matching coil at the base. Do not use a 5/8 wave antenna (looks very similar) at mast top as they require a ground plane that does not exist up there. Where are you going? Carl Gary wrote: > > ....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up > a bit. I will be putting an antenna on top of mast. I have no other > communications example....SSB but would like to. I plan an offshore > trip so I am looking into my options. Some specifics of antenna type, > wire, mounting ...etc. Is VHF and SSB sufficient. Is top of the mast > best place? I am not interested in sat tv or email etc but would be > content with just the basics. > > Thanks in advance... > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13380|13189|2007-05-25 22:17:19|mickeyolaf|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I wonder what would happen if you helped yourself to some of that funny weed Lasquetti Islanders grow. I understand alot of them are gardeners. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing up > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object to is > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling them > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore and > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional right > to catch what we need. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that > spoil > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and > sell it to > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > breaking the > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money > and break > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They > don't like > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have > spoiled > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > interest > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > > of our time, consumerism.. > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > cruising. > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > previous > > > life? > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if > that's > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > majority of us > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then > you're > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > single > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > fact that > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the > fact > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding > that air > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > old, frail > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- sum > game. > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for > others > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking > with your > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13381|13360|2007-05-25 22:46:44|silascrosby|Re: Rail Mount VHF|re Backstay insulators and antenna : I guess once you have done the damage and cut the backstays for an antenna it makes sense to try to have safer insulators, but I have been told by several experienced radio people that an effective HF antenna can be done without compromising the rig - fewer joins must be better for reliability. On the SSCA forum there is detailed discussion about this. Without a tuner( which is what you are implying,Brent) you would have to do as Carl has done, by his trailer in Cedar, with different dipoles for different bands strung through the trees or rigging. Is that right ? Also on the SSCA forum the consensus seemed to be that ~ 34' is the optimum for a tunable wire or backstay( which is pretty near 10 m.) Steve| 13382|13189|2007-05-26 00:29:07|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|brent, you wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > To avoid ciguatera, fish offshore or stick to fish that weigh under a > kilo. > Brent I gather that in your opinion, the dinoflagelates or whatever they're called that cause ciguatera primarily congregate near the reefs near shore?, something like red tide? I can see where the larger predatory fish might over time accumulate substantial amounts of the toxin, by ingesting a lot of smaller fish, but you think the smaller ones themselves are more likely to be safe to eat.. makes some sense, I just hadn't heard that before. seer| 13383|13360|2007-05-26 01:51:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Amateur and SSB frequencies are different. You can get an amateur radio that will do both, but you are unlikely to get an SSB that will do both. Amateur bands, especially 20 meters, are typically what is used for marine nets. A 10 meter long wire, end fed is already tuned for 20 meters. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF One question about the HF amateur radio & station and license. What is the difference between that and registering your boat with the FCC for a marine SSB which with give you an MMSI# and also be registered to your EPIRB. Thanks Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF Get an HF amateur radio station & license if you are going offshore. Also get a marine SSB radio as there are advantages of that as well. You can get one radio that will work for both. You will need to have an insulated backstay and an antenna tuner to make it work properly. The marine nets will give you great information regarding weather. As for your VHF radio be sure to use quality RG8 coax. The white marine stuff is quite good as it has good shielding braid and all the internal wire is tinned. As for an antenna for VHF they make ones specific for mast top installations. They are 1/2 wave end fed with an impedance matching coil at the base. Do not use a 5/8 wave antenna (looks very similar) at mast top as they require a ground plane that does not exist up there. Where are you going? Carl Gary wrote: > > ....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up > a bit. I will be putting an antenna on top of mast. I have no other > communications example....SSB but would like to. I plan an offshore > trip so I am looking into my options. Some specifics of antenna type, > wire, mounting ...etc. Is VHF and SSB sufficient. Is top of the mast > best place? I am not interested in sat tv or email etc but would be > content with just the basics. > > Thanks in advance... > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13384|13384|2007-05-26 07:24:25|sae140|Backstay antennas|For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. 7170459 is but one example. Colin| 13385|1565|2007-05-26 09:38:15|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: sandblasting|Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate Soda vrs. Granite Sand? Thanks Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting Don't waste your money on store bought sand. That's a scam.Just use anything that doesn't have salt water on it. Screen it well thru a window screen and make sure it's super dry before using it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > hi, all > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it > works well so long as its not off of the beach. > should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was > wheel and primed. > Aaron > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > > including steel. > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > than scrap price? > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ ______________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13386|13384|2007-05-26 09:49:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Backstay antennas|A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the tuner. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. 7170459 is but one example. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13387|13360|2007-05-26 09:59:39|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Thanks for the input. However I do not agree with a SSB not being able to get all of the other frequencies. Yes most marine SSB's that you buy will only be set up for Marine Frequencies, the only thing that is blocking the rest of the frequencies is a simple diode. You can ask your local tech to cut the diode which inturn opens up the radio for all frequencies. I guess my main questions was that if you get your marine Radio license (good for 10 yrs) and will allow you register all of your safety equipment and documentation numbers. Allowing for quick emergency contact information in the event of a May-Day. Does your Amateur Radio License allow this safety feature as well? Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 1:48 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF Amateur and SSB frequencies are different. You can get an amateur radio that will do both, but you are unlikely to get an SSB that will do both. Amateur bands, especially 20 meters, are typically what is used for marine nets. A 10 meter long wire, end fed is already tuned for 20 meters. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF One question about the HF amateur radio & station and license. What is the difference between that and registering your boat with the FCC for a marine SSB which with give you an MMSI# and also be registered to your EPIRB. Thanks Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF Get an HF amateur radio station & license if you are going offshore. Also get a marine SSB radio as there are advantages of that as well. You can get one radio that will work for both. You will need to have an insulated backstay and an antenna tuner to make it work properly. The marine nets will give you great information regarding weather. As for your VHF radio be sure to use quality RG8 coax. The white marine stuff is quite good as it has good shielding braid and all the internal wire is tinned. As for an antenna for VHF they make ones specific for mast top installations. They are 1/2 wave end fed with an impedance matching coil at the base. Do not use a 5/8 wave antenna (looks very similar) at mast top as they require a ground plane that does not exist up there. Where are you going? Carl Gary wrote: > > ....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up > a bit. I will be putting an antenna on top of mast. I have no other > communications example....SSB but would like to. I plan an offshore > trip so I am looking into my options. Some specifics of antenna type, > wire, mounting ...etc. Is VHF and SSB sufficient. Is top of the mast > best place? I am not interested in sat tv or email etc but would be > content with just the basics. > > Thanks in advance... > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13388|13189|2007-05-26 10:16:40|greg elliott|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it was. Divide and conquer. In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while in fact it is a curse. The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is nothing to be proud of. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing up > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object to is > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling them > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore and > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional right > to catch what we need. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that > spoil > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and > sell it to > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > breaking the > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money > and break > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They > don't like > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the local > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they have > spoiled > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish bastards > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > interest > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant religion > > of our time, consumerism.. > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that and > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to a > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > cruising. > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > previous > > > life? > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if > that's > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty clear > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > majority of us > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, then > you're > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > single > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > fact that > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; the > fact > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding > that air > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > old, frail > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a murderer. > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- sum > game. > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for > others > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want to > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking > with your > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13389|13360|2007-05-26 10:19:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rail Mount VHF|On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 09:59:03AM -0400, Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > Thanks for the input. However I do not agree with a SSB not being > able to get all of the other frequencies. Yes most marine SSB's that > you buy will only be set up for Marine Frequencies, the only thing > that is blocking the rest of the frequencies is a simple diode. You > can ask your local tech to cut the diode which inturn opens up the > radio for all frequencies. That certainly _used_ to be true; I've snipped many a diode myself in the past. These days, though, SSBs use PLLs (Phase-Locked Loops) - there haven't been any diodes to cut for years. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13390|13360|2007-05-26 10:40:51|greg elliott|Re: Rail Mount VHF|End fed a 10 meter wire matches 20 meters (14MHz), which is by far the most useful offshore frequency. With a tuner, it will also resonate well on 40 and 80 meters, which are the next widely used. The longest wire possible is best for receiving weak signals, not for transmitting. If you simply chose the logest wire length, it will not provide optimum results on the most useful frequencies. By choosing a 10 meter antenna length, it will resonate optimally on the most used frequencies, with minimal tuning. On 20 meters, no tuning will be required, allowing you to get out even if the tuner fails. These questions and more are answered in detail as part of your amateur license training - typically at no cost. Before installing a radio, take the time to get your license. Brent, do you have an HF radio? A license? What is your callsign? Greg AC7HE --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Does ten meters exactly give a close match on most ham bands? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > For offshore: > > > > 1) Make the antenna 10 meters long. > > 2) Get an amateur license (and SSB license) > > 4) Install a ham rig (modified to do all bands and SSB) + tuner > > 5) Install a Pactor 2 or higher modem > > 6) Install a notebook computer for Airmail > > 7) Sign up with winlink for personal, sailmail for business > > > > Airmail is free, it will deliver email to keep in touch, > automatically > > update your position reports on the web, and deliver gib files for > weather. > > > > http://winlink.org/ > > > > Sailmail does much the same, but it is subscription (fee) based and > does not > > have the same coverage. It does not require an amateur license. > > > > Compared to going ashore to communicate, or trying to keep in touch > via > > voice nets or cell phone, Pactor is a huge leap forward for > offshore yachts. > > Pactor will get through when voice will not. > > > > Even in remote locations, you typically can get out in the morning > and > > evening on HF. That means twice a day you can send/receive email, > position > > reports, and weather updates. Friends and family want to locate > you, they > > simply click on the winlink web-site, and a map appears giving your > > position, and the date and time last reported. This can be a huge > comfort > > to those ashore, as well as a life saver should something go > wrong. > > > > An amateur license is not hard to get. The requirements are much > easier > > than they used to be. > > > > > > http://www.arrl.org/fcc/fcclook.php3?call=ac7he > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 6:57 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rail Mount VHF > > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > Thanks for stopping by and chatting > > Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very > easy > > to do. > > You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower > HF bands. > > With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 > feet > > of antenna. > > I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can > do the > > wire splicing for the eyes that go through. > > This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm > in Utah. > > Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking > wire eyes. > > This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that > point > > (the sailing rig). > > > > Later, > > Carl > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing > a > > > great job. > > > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > > > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and > avoid > > > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13391|13189|2007-05-26 10:42:49|mkriley48|ciguatera|in the Bahamas the size rule holds for predators and also not to eat anything that feeds on the coral as it is believed that the origins of the toxins are in the coral. It has worked well for me. mike| 13392|13360|2007-05-26 10:48:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Most ham rigs have a tuning dial, allowing you to search off frequency The SSB's I've seen were discrete tuning. You had to "punch in" the frequency you wanted. This may have changed, though I can't see why an SSB would be designed to hunt off frequency, while for an amateur rig this is a given. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:21 AM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rail Mount VHF On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 09:59:03AM -0400, Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > Thanks for the input. However I do not agree with a SSB not being > able to get all of the other frequencies. Yes most marine SSB's that > you buy will only be set up for Marine Frequencies, the only thing > that is blocking the rest of the frequencies is a simple diode. You > can ask your local tech to cut the diode which inturn opens up the > radio for all frequencies. That certainly _used_ to be true; I've snipped many a diode myself in the past. These days, though, SSBs use PLLs (Phase-Locked Loops) - there haven't been any diodes to cut for years. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13393|13189|2007-05-26 10:52:12|greg elliott|Re: ciguatera|cigutera is cumulative in humans as well. it is not unusual for a local to develop symptoms, while you will not, after both of you share the same fish. small fish are no guarantee of safety if you eat them regularly, but they are certainly safer. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > in the Bahamas the size rule holds for predators and also not to eat > anything that feeds on the coral as it is believed > that the origins of the toxins are in the coral. It has worked well > for me. > mike > | 13394|13360|2007-05-26 11:14:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Rail Mount VHF|On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 02:39:43PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > By choosing a 10 meter antenna length, it will resonate optimally on > the most used frequencies, with minimal tuning. No, it will not. Antennas are a high-precision electronic component, and you can't just hack off a hunk of metal to some approximate length and have it work well, except by extreme coincidence. 10 meters will get you into the approximate range of the common frequencies - but unless you do a rough tune on the wire to get it into the center of the range and use a decent tuner after that, you're "playing pool with a wet noodle", as the saying goes. I've precision-tuned antennas by cutting to length while watching a good-quality VSWR meter; that's an extremely ticklish operation, and depends on luck as much as it does on calculation. More than that, as the wire stretches and oxidizes over time, or as salt and dust accumulate on it, it goes out of tune. You could rig up a tunable inductor-capacitor tank circuit and nurse it manually while you use the radio (and learn to swing between the two best positions as you switch from receive to transmit), but I, for one, don't want to go back to barely-functioning 1950s technology. Tuners are relatively inexpensive, automatic, and track much faster than a human being can. Doing without one is like throwing away 95% of the money you spent on the rest of the related equipment. Just to underscore the difference between a well-tuned and a poorly-tuned antenna: when I was in Salinas, Puerto Rico, I was hired to set up a tuner for a boat in the harbor (it had been badly installed originally.) Before I tuned it, it couldn't reach Ponce, just a few miles down the coast. An hour later, after I set up the tuner, they were chatting with their friends in Venezuela (400 miles away) with a 5x5 signal. Given all of the above - in my experience, whether you have an SSB transmitter or not is a very personal decision. I cruised for seven years with only a good-quality receiver (note: a built-in tape recorder for later replay of weather signals is an _excellent_ option), and never found any reason to regret not having one. If you want one, consider the expense, the power draw (a well-tuned rig will draw 13-20A while transmitting), and the maintenance/repair headaches/costs. If you consider it worthwhile after that, then go for it - but don't let all of that be a surprise to you. Bruce Van Sant covers the issue pretty well in "The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13395|13384|2007-05-26 19:32:56|David A. Frantz|Re: Backstay antennas|This is one of those occasions where a picture would be worth a thousand words. One advantage that mariners have is that the ocean can be an excellent ground plane. I'm trying to imagine if this description is benefiting from that. Thanks Dave ge@... wrote: > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB > whip > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > on the > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > of the > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > capturing the > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > tuner. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > 7170459 is but one example. > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13396|1565|2007-05-26 19:48:06|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|Soda is too fine to give you the rough surface you want for painting, and too fine to get thick rust off. Its mostly used for soft material like fibreglass. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate Soda vrs. Granite Sand? > > Thanks > Cameron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > Don't waste your money on store bought sand. That's a scam.Just use > anything that doesn't have salt water on it. Screen it well thru a > window screen and make sure it's super dry before using it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > hi, all > > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. > > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting > > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it > > works well so long as its not off of the beach. > > should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was > > wheel and primed. > > Aaron > > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > > > including steel. > > > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > > than scrap price? > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > ______________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13397|13189|2007-05-26 20:01:34|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir $75, a piece of air dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of your small fingernail Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in a scapyard. galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest of the cost of riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . Weld up your own tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and welding rod. Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either a used main in excellent condition nor for a jib. Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages to throttle and gear shift. Cost me pennies. Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 and a depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get cruising. Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a farmer who'll rent the space for less than that.Especially as your drought has made the land worthless for anything else. Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch it onto a flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel lift for lless than that. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of reducing costs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in the > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia > AU $1,780.00 > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > Reserve not met > about 100 km from the coast. > > Lets start a contest.... > > So how much to finish? > BOAT??? > $2000 > Moving to Work area > $1000 > Cleaning > $500 > Rust > Removal > $500 > Priming > $500 > Paint > $500 > Running Gear > $3000 > Mast > $2000 > Rigging > $3000 > Sail > $4000 > Controls > $1000 > electronics > $2000 > Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong > place $1000 > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > wrong. $1000 > Rent for 2 years or > more $10,000 > Putting boat in > Water > $1000 > > ======== > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in > Australia, I dont live there > =========================================================== > I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, some > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running gear > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > ===================================== > | 13398|13360|2007-05-26 22:27:45|sae140|Re: Rail Mount VHF|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > ....I have a railmount antenna for VHF but noted last year breaking up > a bit. If it used to work ok, it might be worth checking the state of the co-ax to see if the pvc outer has split or deteriorated, allowing water to enter the cable - which would then make the cable very 'lossy'. If this *is* the cause, replace it with a good quality coax such as RG8X, RG213 or similar. A self-supporting antenna is worth keeping as a secondary mast for emergency back-up, 'cause in the unlikely event of losing a mast, your masthead antenna will also be down, and you may have little or nothing from which to hoist a roll-up antenna which some people carry for emergency use. Colin| 13399|1565|2007-05-27 04:08:02|aaron riis|Re: painting|thanks, one more question, do you paint epoxy under the interior wood against the steel, or do builders routinely put the wood flush against the steel and paint up to and over the wood, thinking that i should paint under it, wood being water absorbant. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > Soda is too fine to give you the rough surface you > want for painting, > and too fine to get thick rust off. Its mostly used > for soft material > like fibreglass. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya > & Fynn" > wrote: > > > > Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate > Soda vrs. Granite > Sand? > > > > Thanks > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > Don't waste your money on store bought sand. > That's a scam.Just > use > > anything that doesn't have salt water on it. > Screen it well thru > a > > window screen and make sure it's super dry > before using it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > > wrote: > > > > > > hi, all > > > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my > boat. > > > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am > sitting > > > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says > that it > > > works well so long as its not off of the > beach. > > > should i spend the money on silica sand? the > boat was > > > wheel and primed. > > > Aaron > > > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex > Christie > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but > was just > > > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > > > the poster did, that everything jumped by > 50% > > > > including steel. > > > > > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make > reserve. > > > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > > > than scrap price? > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > ______________Looking for a deal? Find great > prices on flights > and > > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/| 13400|1565|2007-05-27 13:51:57|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: sandblasting|Thanks Brent, I have been finding out the same information. However I am looking a blasting my topsides and have found someone that is really pushing Soda. Says that there is a grade 60?? that will be sufficient. He also says that there is Granite available as well. I am looking at doing this in Guatemala and Black Beauty is a bit pricy to import. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting Soda is too fine to give you the rough surface you want for painting, and too fine to get thick rust off. Its mostly used for soft material like fibreglass. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate Soda vrs. Granite Sand? > > Thanks > Cameron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > Don't waste your money on store bought sand. That's a scam.Just use > anything that doesn't have salt water on it. Screen it well thru a > window screen and make sure it's super dry before using it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > hi, all > > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. > > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting > > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it > > works well so long as its not off of the beach. > > should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was > > wheel and primed. > > Aaron > > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > > > including steel. > > > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > > than scrap price? > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > ______________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13401|1565|2007-05-27 15:00:30|greg elliott|Re: painting|Avoid wood against steel like the plague. It will wick water and accelerate corrosion, while hiding the damage. Lift the wood off the steel with tabs. SS if available. Either way, better to have a few tabs rust out than the hull. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > thanks, > one more question, do you paint epoxy under the > interior wood against the steel, or do builders > routinely put the wood flush against the steel and > paint up to and over the wood, thinking that i should > paint under it, wood being water absorbant. > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > Soda is too fine to give you the rough surface you > > want for painting, > > and too fine to get thick rust off. Its mostly used > > for soft material > > like fibreglass. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya > > & Fynn" > > wrote: > > > > > > Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate > > Soda vrs. Granite > > Sand? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Cameron > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > > > > Don't waste your money on store bought sand. > > That's a scam.Just > > use > > > anything that doesn't have salt water on it. > > Screen it well thru > > a > > > window screen and make sure it's super dry > > before using it. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > hi, all > > > > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my > > boat. > > > > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am > > sitting > > > > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says > > that it > > > > works well so long as its not off of the > > beach. > > > > should i spend the money on silica sand? the > > boat was > > > > wheel and primed. > > > > Aaron > > > > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex > > Christie > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but > > was just > > > > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > > > > the poster did, that everything jumped by > > 50% > > > > > including steel. > > > > > > > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make > > reserve. > > > > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > > > > than scrap price? > > > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > ______________Looking for a deal? Find great > > prices on flights > > and > > > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > | 13402|13189|2007-05-27 16:13:42|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap yard? Where did the wire come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is strong enough? What service has it already seen? How do you know it has not already been fatigued? Any commercial yard rigged a boat with wire from a scrap yard, what would that say about the quality of their work, their concern for the safety at sea? It tells me the builder cares about cost first, safety a distant second. Any reasonable boat builder/yard should know: 1. If the rigging fails offshore, serious damage, injury or death is likely. 2. Wire from a scrap yard many not be of sufficient quality to rig an offshore boat, as you cannot be certain of its origin or history. This would be sufficient to establish criminal negligence if their was a failure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence We know how much it costs to finish a 36. About $100K from previous postings. Yes, you can spend months/year searching scrap yard for deals, counting your time as zero, building from other people's junk. Most people don't have the time. Most people would not want to take the risk. They would want to use good materials, from a reputable supply, thus the $100K cost to finish the boat. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir $75, a piece of air dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of your small fingernail Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in a scapyard. galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest of the cost of riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . Weld up your own tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and welding rod. Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either a used main in excellent condition nor for a jib. Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages to throttle and gear shift. Cost me pennies. Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 and a depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get cruising. Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a farmer who'll rent the space for less than that.Especially as your drought has made the land worthless for anything else. Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch it onto a flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel lift for lless than that. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of reducing costs. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester wrote: > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in the > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia > AU $1,780.00 > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > Reserve not met > about 100 km from the coast. > > Lets start a contest.... > > So how much to finish? > BOAT??? > $2000 > Moving to Work area > $1000 > Cleaning > $500 > Rust > Removal > $500 > Priming > $500 > Paint > $500 > Running Gear > $3000 > Mast > $2000 > Rigging > $3000 > Sail > $4000 > Controls > $1000 > electronics > $2000 > Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong > place $1000 > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > wrong. $1000 > Rent for 2 years or > more $10,000 > Putting boat in > Water > $1000 > > ======== > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in > Australia, I dont live there > =========================================================== > I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, some > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running gear > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > ===================================== > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13403|13189|2007-05-27 17:10:45|aaron riis|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg, galvanized 1 by 7 high tensile 5/16 wire. check it out, very strong and inexpenseve even if bought new. Ive never noticed hydro lines that pass over a stretch of salt water rusted out. I don't think that Brent is recomending that comercial builder's buy from the scrapyard. Aaron --- ge@... wrote: > Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap > yard? Where did the wire > come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is > strong enough? What > service has it already seen? How do you know it has > not already been > fatigued? > > Any commercial yard rigged a boat with wire from a > scrap yard, what would > that say about the quality of their work, their > concern for the safety at > sea? It tells me the builder cares about cost > first, safety a distant > second. > > Any reasonable boat builder/yard should know: > > 1. If the rigging fails offshore, serious damage, > injury or death is > likely. > 2. Wire from a scrap yard many not be of sufficient > quality to rig an > offshore boat, as you cannot be certain of its > origin or history. > > This would be sufficient to establish criminal > negligence if their was a > failure. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence > > We know how much it costs to finish a 36. About > $100K from previous > postings. Yes, you can spend months/year searching > scrap yard for deals, > counting your time as zero, building from other > people's junk. Most people > don't have the time. Most people would not want to > take the risk. They > would want to use good materials, from a reputable > supply, thus the $100K > cost to finish the boat. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:00 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > > > Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir > $75, a piece of air > dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of > your small > fingernail > Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in > a scapyard. > galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest > of the cost of > riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . > Weld up your own > tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and > welding rod. > Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either > a used main in > excellent condition nor for a jib. > Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages > to throttle and > gear shift. Cost me pennies. > Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 > and a > depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get > cruising. > Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a > farmer who'll rent > the space for less than that.Especially as your > drought has made the > land worthless for anything else. > Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch > it onto a > flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel > lift for lless > than that. > This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of reducing > costs. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester > wrote: > > > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in > water. Some rust in > the > > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, > Australia > > AU $1,780.00 > > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > > Reserve not met > > about 100 km from the coast. > > > > Lets start a contest.... > > > > So how much to finish? > > > BOAT??? > > > $2000 > > Moving to Work > area > > $1000 > > > Cleaning > > > $500 > > Rust > > > Removal > > > $500 > > > Priming > > > $500 > > > Paint > > > $500 > > Running > Gear > > $3000 > > > Mast > > > $2000 > > > Rigging > > > $3000 > > > Sail > > > $4000 > > > Controls > > > $1000 > > > electronics > > > $2000 > > Moving stuff around because someone put it in > wrong > > place $1000 > > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > > wrong. $1000 > > Rent for 2 years or > > more > $10,000 > > Putting boat in > > > Water > > > $1000 > > > > > ======== > > > > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to > buy a boat in > > Australia, I dont live there > > > =========================================================== > > I would try to buy a used boat from a known > designer missing sails, > some > > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast > and some running > gear > > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and > rent of location > > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > > > ===================================== > > > > > > > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/| 13404|1565|2007-05-27 21:16:15|David A. Frantz|Re: sandblasting|Why import sand into Guatemala? Sand can be found just about anywhere. If by chance they don't have any, get the cheapest stuff you can from a nearby source. Dave Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > > Thanks Brent, > I have been finding out the same information. However I am looking a > blasting my topsides and have found someone that is really pushing > Soda. Says that there is a grade 60?? that will be sufficient. He also > says that there is Granite available as well. I am looking at doing > this in Guatemala and Black Beauty is a bit pricy to import. > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > Soda is too fine to give you the rough surface you want for painting, > and too fine to get thick rust off. Its mostly used for soft material > like fibreglass. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" > wrote: > > > > Is there any pro's or cons to using Bicarbonate Soda vrs. Granite > Sand? > > > > Thanks > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 4:53 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > > > Don't waste your money on store bought sand. That's a scam.Just > use > > anything that doesn't have salt water on it. Screen it well thru > a > > window screen and make sure it's super dry before using it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , aaron riis > wrote: > > > > > > hi, all > > > i will soon need to sandblast some parts of my boat. > > > i can borrow the equiptment. wondering, i am sitting > > > on a huge sand dune, one of the locals says that it > > > works well so long as its not off of the beach. > > > should i spend the money on silica sand? the boat was > > > wheel and primed. > > > Aaron > > > --- peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Alex Christie > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I agree that many costs have jumped, but was just > > > > cautioning that not accurate to say, as > > > > the poster did, that everything jumped by 50% > > > > including steel. > > > > > > > > Ebay item 230129871188 - didn't make reserve. > > > > Anyone want to tell me that it's not less > > > > than scrap price? > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > ______________Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights > and > > hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13405|13189|2007-05-27 21:29:08|David A. Frantz|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|While I'm sure there are questionable materials in a scrap yard a good deal of new material ends up there also. I know this from experience because at work we are currently going through the pains (it is a pain and a big waste) of 5S. Stuff gets thrown out that has never been used. As far as the quality of the materials that is a potential problem but can be dealt with rationally. If you are on any sort of budget a scrap yard can not be ignored. It should be pointed out that this is not a commercial effort here at all, so it doesn't pay to bring that into the discussion. In any event the cost of outfitting a boat is going to be highly variable depending on the demands of the user. If every boat came out to $100K people would just go out an buy used. Dave ge@... wrote: > > Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap yard? Where did the wire > come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is strong enough? What > service has it already seen? How do you know it has not already been > fatigued? > > Any commercial yard rigged a boat with wire from a scrap yard, what would > that say about the quality of their work, their concern for the safety at > sea? It tells me the builder cares about cost first, safety a distant > second. > > Any reasonable boat builder/yard should know: > > 1. If the rigging fails offshore, serious damage, injury or death is > likely. > 2. Wire from a scrap yard many not be of sufficient quality to rig an > offshore boat, as you cannot be certain of its origin or history. > > This would be sufficient to establish criminal negligence if their was a > failure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence > > > We know how much it costs to finish a 36. About $100K from previous > postings. Yes, you can spend months/year searching scrap yard for deals, > counting your time as zero, building from other people's junk. Most people > don't have the time. Most people would not want to take the risk. They > would want to use good materials, from a reputable supply, thus the $100K > cost to finish the boat. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:00 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir $75, a piece of air > dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of your small > fingernail > Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in a scapyard. > galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest of the cost of > riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . Weld up your own > tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and welding rod. > Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either a used main in > excellent condition nor for a jib. > Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages to throttle and > gear shift. Cost me pennies. > Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 and a > depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get cruising. > Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a farmer who'll rent > the space for less than that.Especially as your drought has made the > land worthless for anything else. > Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch it onto a > flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel lift for lless > than that. > This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of reducing costs. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester > wrote: > > > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in > the > > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia > > AU $1,780.00 > > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > > Reserve not met > > about 100 km from the coast. > > > > Lets start a contest.... > > > > So how much to finish? > > > BOAT??? > > > $2000 > > Moving to Work > area > > $1000 > > > Cleaning > > > $500 > > Rust > > > Removal > > > $500 > > > Priming > > > $500 > > > Paint > > > $500 > > Running > Gear > > $3000 > > > Mast > > > $2000 > > > Rigging > > > $3000 > > > Sail > > > $4000 > > > Controls > > > $1000 > > > electronics > > > $2000 > > Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong > > place $1000 > > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > > wrong. $1000 > > Rent for 2 years or > > more > $10,000 > > Putting boat in > > > Water > > > $1000 > > > > > ======== > > > > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in > > Australia, I dont live there > > =========================================================== > > I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, > some > > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running > gear > > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location > > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > > > ===================================== > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13406|13360|2007-05-27 22:53:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Rail Mount VHF|I've never found radios nearly that complicated or sensitive. I've been an amateur operator for 20 years, used the rig almost every day for years on end. I've never heard of anyone setting a radio up with a different tuner setting for xmit and receive. My 20 year old Yaesu 747 and MFJ manual tuner, I get out 3000 miles to my ground station in Perth every day. If you aren't familiar with propagation and skip, it can often surprise the novice, why you can contact a station hundreds or thousands of miles away, but not one just a few miles down the coast. You can get automatic tuner for $200 and for lots of people they are a good idea. Usually the tuner is not the problem with boats getting out, it is their ground. Once you make contact, you can typically turn the drive way back on the rig to save power, and in fact are required to do so by regulations. I often start a session transmitting 100 watts to make contact, then cut back to 10 watts if conditions are reasonable. I've done SE Asia to Canada more than a few times on 10 watts, propagation being much more critical than xmit power. For the Pacific and Indian Oceans, with thousands of miles between landfalls, the HF is one of the best investments I made. Over the years, 3 boats that I knew that disappeared without a trace, none of them had radios. In Indonesia we had a lucky escape from pirates, thanks to the HF radio. I know of 3 other boats that were saved by their HF radios. Beyond that, there is a huge convenience and safety factor in being able to co-ordinate with other boats, get medical advice, travel in convoys for safety, arrange for parts and spares to be brought to remote locations. It doesn't take long to sail out of VHF range of a convoy. Once you do, it can be next to impossible to locate the other boats without HF. Greg AC7HE _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Rail Mount VHF On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 02:39:43PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > By choosing a 10 meter antenna length, it will resonate optimally on > the most used frequencies, with minimal tuning. No, it will not. Antennas are a high-precision electronic component, and you can't just hack off a hunk of metal to some approximate length and have it work well, except by extreme coincidence. 10 meters will get you into the approximate range of the common frequencies - but unless you do a rough tune on the wire to get it into the center of the range and use a decent tuner after that, you're "playing pool with a wet noodle", as the saying goes. I've precision-tuned antennas by cutting to length while watching a good-quality VSWR meter; that's an extremely ticklish operation, and depends on luck as much as it does on calculation. More than that, as the wire stretches and oxidizes over time, or as salt and dust accumulate on it, it goes out of tune. You could rig up a tunable inductor-capacitor tank circuit and nurse it manually while you use the radio (and learn to swing between the two best positions as you switch from receive to transmit), but I, for one, don't want to go back to barely-functioning 1950s technology. Tuners are relatively inexpensive, automatic, and track much faster than a human being can. Doing without one is like throwing away 95% of the money you spent on the rest of the related equipment. Just to underscore the difference between a well-tuned and a poorly-tuned antenna: when I was in Salinas, Puerto Rico, I was hired to set up a tuner for a boat in the harbor (it had been badly installed originally.) Before I tuned it, it couldn't reach Ponce, just a few miles down the coast. An hour later, after I set up the tuner, they were chatting with their friends in Venezuela (400 miles away) with a 5x5 signal. Given all of the above - in my experience, whether you have an SSB transmitter or not is a very personal decision. I cruised for seven years with only a good-quality receiver (note: a built-in tape recorder for later replay of weather signals is an _excellent_ option), and never found any reason to regret not having one. If you want one, consider the expense, the power draw (a well-tuned rig will draw 13-20A while transmitting), and the maintenance/repair headaches/costs. If you consider it worthwhile after that, then go for it - but don't let all of that be a surprise to you. Bruce Van Sant covers the issue pretty well in "The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13407|13189|2007-05-28 00:21:45|Ralf Deutsch|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I understand how to use galvanized wire for shrouds and backstays but what about foresstays if one does not want to use roller furling? Doesn`t the zink come off quickly and doesn`t the wire start to rust? How do you protect a forestay of galvanized wire for hanked on sails? Ralf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > Greg, > galvanized 1 by 7 high tensile 5/16 wire. check it > out, very strong and inexpenseve even if bought new. > Ive never noticed hydro lines that pass over a stretch > of salt water rusted out. I don't think that Brent is > recomending that comercial builder's buy from the > scrapyard. > > Aaron | 13408|13189|2007-05-28 02:09:47|peter_d_wiley|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir $75, a piece of air > dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of your small > fingernail > Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in a scapyard. > galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest of the cost of > riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . Weld up your own > tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and welding rod. > Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either a used main in > excellent condition nor for a jib. > Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages to throttle and > gear shift. Cost me pennies. > Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 and a > depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get cruising. > Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a farmer who'll rent > the space for less than that.Especially as your drought has made the > land worthless for anything else. I'll rent a patch of my place for less than that but Brent - you really need to understand that Australia is a big place, it's not all in drought. My place is green as can be & the tomato plants are still producing, 3 days away from the official start of winter. And I'm at 43S. > Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch it onto a > flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel lift for lless > than that. Heh. That is so far out of line with reality in Australia that you look silly. Crane hire is going to cost at least $1200 as they operate on a 4 hour minimum. You need a truck - min $75/hour. You need a wide load permit. Then at the other end you need to get it in the water. Local marina charges $120 a lift. Then there's the cradle - couple hundred in scrap steel I reckon. Before there's any comebacks, I regularly move my 2 workboats back & forth from the hardstand at work to the local marina. They're 6 tonne 30' alumin powerboats. Usually costs around $2K each time we move one.| 13409|13189|2007-05-28 02:17:22|peter_d_wiley|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap yard? Where did the wire > come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is strong enough? What > service has it already seen? How do you know it has not already been > fatigued? Any scrap wire you get near me, probably *was* mine. I guarantee there's a good reason it is scrap, and I wouldn't be rigging my boat with it. However Brent is also correct - if you can find the right place with te right scrap wire when you want it, you can get a cheap rig. What he didn't say is this isn't all that simple, but it doesn't really matter. Galv wire rope is cheap enough brand new if you buy it from an industrial supplier and not your friendly local boat chandler. PDW| 13410|13189|2007-05-28 14:11:09|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Here in Arkansas, every telco, county equipt service depot etc. has oodles (that's 'lots' :) of this stuff laying around. Usually tailings from the huge spools they buy it in. I once stopped in and asked if the local city service yard had any leftover I could buy to rig up some winch extensions. After about 15 minutes of them trying to figure out how to write up a sale, they just threw their hands up and pointed me towards a pile of brand new fresh and shiny stuff laying over in a corner of the yard. net cost..."zero" ...This wasn't junk either, same stuff they were using to truss power poles etc. a little overkill for my purposes, it appeared to be about the same diameter of the stainless we used to rig my 54 ft., 27 ton sloop. moral of the story, as brent points out, if you don't go look, you'll never know for sure. As for the oz costs of putting in and out, sounds like you are living pretty high on the hog's back down there :) tho it was a few years ago, even with the conversions assuming you're talking aussie dollars, that's about what I used to pay in Newport Beach Harbor, California, one of the 'yachtiest' harbors in the world. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap yard? Where did the wire > > come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is strong enough? What > > service has it already seen? How do you know it has not already been > > fatigued? > > Any scrap wire you get near me, probably *was* mine. I guarantee there's a good reason it is > scrap, and I wouldn't be rigging my boat with it. > > However Brent is also correct - if you can find the right place with te right scrap wire when > you want it, you can get a cheap rig. What he didn't say is this isn't all that simple, but it > doesn't really matter. Galv wire rope is cheap enough brand new if you buy it from an > industrial supplier and not your friendly local boat chandler. > > PDW > | 13411|13360|2007-05-28 14:23:35|seeratlas|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Colin is exactly right. besides, if you pick/build as good one, it can double as an outrigger for fishing till you need it :) don't laugh, I had two on the falcon:) caught a helluva lot of fish with em too :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > A self-supporting antenna is worth keeping as a secondary mast for > emergency back-up, 'cause in the unlikely event of losing a mast, your > masthead antenna will also be down, and you may have little or nothing > from which to hoist a roll-up antenna which some people carry for > emergency use. > > Colin > | 13412|13412|2007-05-28 15:19:17|seeratlas|Oh, NO! not corten again....|Ok, apologizing in advance, :) Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing the catch water option for the cabin top. Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, wayward blocks and shackles etc. by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) seer| 13413|13257|2007-05-28 18:40:09|greg elliott|Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and deer alone|DNA evidence that Europeans may have been in North America first. Kayaks could easily have reached North America hunting along the edge of the ice from Europe. We assume that because early people didn't build large ships they didn't travel large distances. We were nomadic hunters long before we were farmers. We followed the food, where ever it took us. Greg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture Solutrean hypothesis The controversial Solutrean hypothesis proposed in 1999 by Smithsonian archaeologist Dennis Stanford and colleague Bruce Bradley (Stanford and Bradley 2002), suggests that the Clovis people could have inherited technology from the Solutrean people who lived in southern Europe between about 21,000-17,000 years ago, and who created the first Stone Age artwork in present-day southern France. The link is suggested by the similarity in technology between the spear points of the Solutreans and those of the Clovis people. Such a theory would require that the Solutreans crossed via the edge of the pack ice in the North Atlantic Ocean that then extended to the Atlantic coast of France. They could have done this using survival skills similar to those of the modern Inuit people. Supporters of this hypothesis suggest that stone tools found at Cactus Hill (an early American site in Virginia), that are knapped in a style between Clovis and Solutrean, support a possible link between the Clovis people and Solutrean people in Europe. The idea is also supported by mitochondrial DNA analysis (see Map in Single-origin hypothesis) which has found that some members of some native North American tribes have a maternal ancestry (called haplogroup X) (Schurr 2000), which appears to be more closely linked to the maternal ancestors of some present day individuals in Europe and western Asia than to the ancestors of any present-day individuals in eastern Asia. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's hard to imagine a bigger hippocrite than a vegetarian claiming to > be environmentally friendly, when they sponsor the creation of huge > monocultures, whose goal is to wipe out all biodiversity and all > species but one, over huge areas, using toxic chemicals to reach that > goal whenever it's convenient . My ancestors lived of hunting here for > over 12,000 years and did far less damage than the farmers did in the > last hundred years. The Sahara desert was made by farmers, not hunters. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > 75 million bufalo had to be wiped out to make farmland to feed tyhe > > vegetarians. Farming ids one of the most environmentally destructive > > things we do. 80,000 sq miles of waterffoul nesting grounds were > > drained to make farmland in richmond to feed vegetarians. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "teo sakell" wrote: > > > > > > Vegetables don't depend on life to be fed, they depend on inorganic > > > substances. But then we are not vegetables and I absolutely agree that > > > we haven't asked them if they like to be eaten (many vegetables > present > > > kinds of behavior). > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > On Behalf Of Paul > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:04 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: try being a vegetarian-leave the bear and > > > deer alone > > > > > > And what makes you think that vegetables like being eaten any less > than > > > animals? A little reality check, all life feeds on life. > > > > > > Paul H. > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't care how mad anyone might get about this post-I'll stand by > > > it- > > > > enough said! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13414|13414|2007-05-28 18:40:17|skarsud|origami plate development|As an armchair sailor currently trying to sooth my burning itch for boatbuilding by substituting it with experimenting with hull design programs I was hoping someone here could give me some tips on how to convert an old hardchine design into an origami design. Thanks in advance, Skarsud| 13415|13189|2007-05-28 18:42:17|Cristián Carnicer|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Brent, I am interested in buying his book. Which is teh cost? That system of payment prefers? Since I do it? Regards. Cristian Carnicer Buenos Aires - Argentina --------------------------------- Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13416|13360|2007-05-28 18:47:13|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Currently the US Amateur Radio license comes in three levels: Tech, General and Extra. For HF SSB you need the General license, after passing the Tech test. So two 35 multiple choice question tests (Elements 2 and 3) will give you HF privileges. Both are not too hard and I have seen plenty of people pass them both with just a few weeks of part time study. Young kids who more time to study have passed them as young as 7 years old and we had a 93 year old lady take it and pass a few months ago here in the Portland, Oregon area. Online practice test available at qrrl.org and qrz.com The arrl.org site will show you where testing is available at in your area. Tom Popp - KA0TP Extra Class Ham, Volunteer Examiner Small boat sailor dreaming to upgrade to a world cruiser soon. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13417|13189|2007-05-28 18:48:42|jpronk1|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Brent,I like the way you are doing things. I sailed on a 130' Dutch clipper ship afew years ago. I was telling the skipper that I had a Catalina 27 back home. He said the best thing I could do was sell it to the first sucker that came along. I asked him why and he said "the rigging on this ship cost me about the same as what you could spend on a yacht of about 35 feet, you don't need a yacht you need a ship". $43 000 or $4 300 you both will be sailing but one is going to have alot more money left in the bank to sail on. When I start building a boat it will be a ship. Thanks, James. PS anyone what to buy a Catalina 27? Mast $2,000? mine cosrt the guy i traded it foir $75, a piece of air > dried sitka spruce , only three knots the size of your small > fingernail > Rig 3,000? Enough galv wire to rig a 36 costs $24 in a scapyard. > galv turnbuckles are $29 each. so where is the rest of the cost of > riggin. A bit of sailtrack doesn't cost that much . Weld up your own > tangs for the price of scrap ,grinding discs and welding rod. > Sail 4,000?I've never paid more than $350 for either a used main in > excellent condition nor for a jib. > Controls $1,000? I welded up my own solid linkages to throttle and > gear shift. Cost me pennies. > Electronics $2,000? A GPS costs just a bit over $100 and a > depthsounder $138. Thats all you need to get cruising. > Rent 2 years $10,000 ? I'm sure you can find a farmer who'll rent > the space for less than that.Especially as your drought has made the > land worthless for anything else. > Launch 1,000? You can build your own cradle , winch it onto a > flatbed on a weekend and have it driven to a travel lift for lless > than that. > This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of reducing costs. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Tony Lester > wrote: > > > > Hull is over 25 years old and has never been in water. Some rust in > the > > keel. Weighs 12 tonnes. Beam is 12' approx > > Item location: Moss Vale, New South Wales, Australia > > AU $1,780.00 > > (Approximately US $1,460.85) > > Reserve not met > > about 100 km from the coast. > > > > Lets start a contest.... > > > > So how much to finish? > > > BOAT??? > > > $2000 > > Moving to Work > area > > $1000 > > > Cleaning > > > $500 > > Rust > > > Removal > > > $500 > > > Priming > > > $500 > > > Paint > > > $500 > > Running > Gear > > $3000 > > > Mast > > > $2000 > > > Rigging > > > $3000 > > > Sail > > > $4000 > > > Controls > > > $1000 > > > electronics > > > $2000 > > Moving stuff around because someone put it in wrong > > place $1000 > > Fixing Stuff because someone put it in > > wrong. $1000 > > Rent for 2 years or > > more > $10,000 > > Putting boat in > > > Water > > > $1000 > > > > > ======== > > > > > 43,000 - top of my head number > > > > I was very nice with costs, Oh - why do I want to buy a boat in > > Australia, I dont live there > > =========================================================== > > I would try to buy a used boat from a known designer missing sails, > some > > rigging, some engine, electronics. but with mast and some running > gear > > even if bad. That way you can also reduce time and rent of location > > also. Less money + less down time = more cruising > > > > ===================================== > > > | 13418|13412|2007-05-28 19:44:52|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|seer, add to your list of advantages; that corten will last 5 to 6 times as long as mild steel. While I applaud Brent's K.I.S.S. approach to boat construction, I will definitely be dumping extra money into my build, in the form of aluminum superstructure. I have considered building my hulls & deck from corten, but will leave the decision until I order my steel. While much can be saved by cruising the scrapyards for stainless/etc., I am lazy enough to prefer shelling out the extra dough & buying from the big-buck steel suppliers. To each, his/her own. Regards Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > seer > | 13419|13412|2007-05-28 21:13:07|Tom|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Hello Seer I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? Tom PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go to 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight savings when finished and lots of extra work. I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done corectly ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13420|13412|2007-05-28 21:34:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > Hello Seer > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > Tom > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go to > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > corectly I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff seems to make sense. As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few problems that are worth knowing about. http://www.ussconstruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13421|13412|2007-05-29 00:12:53|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > Hello Seer > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > Tom > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go to > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > corectly I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff seems to make sense. As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few problems that are worth knowing about. http://www.ussconst ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_steel -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13422|13384|2007-05-29 01:34:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Backstay antennas|Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as good as anyone with this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with temporary antennas. Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great way to ruin your radio. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "ge@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the tuner. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. 7170459 is but one example. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13423|13414|2007-05-29 04:15:20|sae140|Re: origami plate development|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "skarsud" wrote: > > As an armchair sailor currently trying to sooth my burning itch for > boatbuilding by substituting it with experimenting with hull design > programs I was hoping someone here could give me some tips on how to > convert an old hardchine design into an origami design. > > Thanks in advance, > > Skarsud > Hi Skarsud if you do a site search for "orange-peel" or "Rhino 3D", you'll get back to several early threads about methods of creating an origami pattern from an existing hull. Good luck Colin| 13424|13412|2007-05-29 09:57:56|mkriley48|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish bottles for your weekly 15min chores. mike -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > seer > | 13425|13384|2007-05-29 10:17:26|mkriley48|Re: Backstay antennas|This sounds like a great idea if it works! one thing not mentioned for both commercial insulators and compression fittings is that a lightning strike will wreak havoc with the insulators. I was reviewing pics of a job on a irwin 65 that had a boat in the same marina take a direct hit. current traveled through the shore cord from the struck boat and went back up the mast and out on the irwin! the insulators were shaped like a coke bottle and the plastic was charred but more troubling was the fact that the compression fittings were only finger tight on both the insulators and random places on the whole rig where the fittings were loosened they showed evidence of carbon internally. some of the toggles had their pins welded to them. I think that a direct strike would have brought the rig down because of the fittings. the fittings were only a couple of years old and installed by a top rigging service! mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as good as anyone with > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with temporary antennas. > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great way to ruin your radio. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@..." > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > tuner. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > 7170459 is but one example. > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13426|13384|2007-05-29 12:50:43|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Backstay antennas|I've also had good results with MFJ. I get SWR 1.1:1 or better on almost all bands, with 15 meters being the most problematic. I like the manual tuner because it lets me see how the antenna and radio are performing. Automatic tuners often hide this, but there are also good reasons to have one - everyone aboard can operate the radio in an emergency. Unless you are operating in a single band you typically need a tuner. When tuning an antenna that naturally resonates close to your chosen frequency, you have a wide latitude with the tuner - you will get a low SWR over a broad range of dial settings. When tuning an antenna that is not close, you need to be very precise in your tuning. Just a small adjustment will result in a big change in SWR. Also, if the antenna is too far off, it may proven impossible to tune. The rig may shut down, you may get all sorts of strange and horrible noises when your try and transmit, or your autopilot and other electronics may start acting up. One thing to check when tuning is the power out. Often you will tune an antenna, and the SWR will drop to 1, and everything will look great, but you won't get out. What has happened is that your radio has detected a large mismatch in the tuning, and shut down its power to protect itself. You have seen this power reduction as a drop in SWR, making it look like the antenna is tuned. The final step after you have tuned is to check the power out. What is SWR? http://www.hamquick.com/tutorial_index.php?id=20 SWR is an indicator of a mismatch between an antenna and the radio. The word SWR stands for Standing Wave Ratio. When a mismatch between the radio and antenna occurs, some of the power sent to the antenna reflects back down the feedline to return to the SWR meter and radio. The ratio between the voltages sent out to the antenna and the voltages reflecting back give you an SWR reading. If there is a mismatch, it can cause problems with your radio and antenna, and somewhat degrade performance. Understanding SWR Readings SWR Readings are given in the following format: * 1:1 - A 1 to 1 ratio is the best reading you can get. (The best impedance match has been attained.) * 1.5:1 - A fairly good SWR match. * 2:1 A good SWR reading. * 2.5:1 - An "OK" SWR reading. * 3:1 - Poor SWR reading. * 4:1 - Bad SWR reading. * 5:1 - Very bad SWR reading. Time to fix your antenna. Understanding SWR Readings SWR readings indicate the impedance match between your radio and the antenna. A bad impedance match will give you a reading of 5:1. A good impedance match will give you a reading between 2:1 and 1:1. A 1:1 is an ideal reading. It means you have a perfect impedance match between your radio and the antenna. This also means you are getting no power reflected from the antenna. Fixing a Bad SWR Reading A very high SWR reading means the antenna is the wrong length, or there may be an open or shorted connection somewhere along the feedline. Make sure to check that there aren't any incorrect connections or shorted components of the antenna. If there aren't any, then it is time to lengthen, or shorten the antenna. Here is the rule for tuning the antenna length for a good SWR match: Transworldradio SWR Rule Lengthening: The antenna is too short and must be lengthened if: the SWR reading at the low end of the amateur band is 5:1 and decreases to 2.5:1 at the high frequency end of the same band. Shortening The antenna is too long and must be shortened if: the SWR reading at the low frequency end of the amateur band is 2.5:1 and increases to 5:1 ant the high frequency end of that same band. Using an HF SWR Meter for VHF Readings An HF SWR meter is not recommended for VHF use, but if it calibrates to full scale in the set position, the readings may be accurate. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as good as anyone with this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with temporary antennas. Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great way to ruin your radio. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "ge@easysoftwareinc. com" com> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the tuner. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. 7170459 is but one example. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile. yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13427|13384|2007-05-29 16:29:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Backstay antennas|I can say it definitely does work since I have been doing it for about 15 years. It works great on a metal boat but I have also heard of fiberglass boats doing it by joining all the lifelines together so the are grounded and then they have a ground plane. I have been told that the insulators change their insulating properties with the salt and humidity and are never consistent. Interesting about the lightning....another reason not to use them. The riggers love to sell you insulators since they are so expensive. This may be why nobody is doing it this way :) Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:16:50 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Backstay antennas This sounds like a great idea if it works! one thing not mentioned for both commercial insulators and compression fittings is that a lightning strike will wreak havoc with the insulators. I was reviewing pics of a job on a irwin 65 that had a boat in the same marina take a direct hit. current traveled through the shore cord from the struck boat and went back up the mast and out on the irwin! the insulators were shaped like a coke bottle and the plastic was charred but more troubling was the fact that the compression fittings were only finger tight on both the insulators and random places on the whole rig where the fittings were loosened they showed evidence of carbon internally. some of the toggles had their pins welded to them. I think that a direct strike would have brought the rig down because of the fittings. the fittings were only a couple of years old and installed by a top rigging service! mike --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as good as anyone with > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with temporary antennas. > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great way to ruin your radio. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@..." > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > tuner. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboat s@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > 7170459 is but one example. > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13428|13414|2007-05-29 16:45:22|Paul Wilson|Re: origami plate development|Try starting with HULLS from Carlsen design and then you can also try FREESHIP (now DELFTSHIP) . HULLS and FREESHIP are freeware and DELFTSHIP is the new paid Version of FREESHIP with a demo version. All good programs and relatively easy to use if you follow the tutorials from the sites. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:12:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami plate development --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "skarsud" wrote: > > As an armchair sailor currently trying to sooth my burning itch for > boatbuilding by substituting it with experimenting with hull design > programs I was hoping someone here could give me some tips on how to > convert an old hardchine design into an origami design. > > Thanks in advance, > > Skarsud > Hi Skarsud if you do a site search for "orange-peel" or "Rhino 3D", you'll get back to several early threads about methods of creating an origami pattern from an existing hull. Good luck Colin ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13429|13360|2007-05-29 16:58:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Rail Mount VHF|Hi Brent, Even though you insulated your other backstay, it can still interfere. If it is the right length, it can set up a resonance from the transmitted signal from your antenna and then re-transmit that signal. It's called re-radiation and although may not happen all the time, could really screw things up when it does. I don't think you would gain much by insulating the other backstay. By the way, this HF frequency stuff is all hocus pocus to me even though I took it in school and have worked with it for years on boats and aircraft. I used to install and tune HFs on fish boats and they were all different, even sister ships from the same shipyard so eveyone needs to be ready to experiment a bit until they find what works. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:17:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rail Mount VHF I've often heard of those ceramic insulators breaking and letting the rigging go dangerously slack. Not a good idea. I've made copies of them by cramming a clear plastic bottle with fibreglass and resin, then drilling them out to make insulators. Much stronger and more reliable. I put a piece of wire on the bottom of my 38.5 foot backstay, to make up the right length for the 80 meter band and hung it alongside with a tie off to the other back stay to give some separation. I communicated on 80 meters a couple of days ago, so it worked. My other backstay is insulated to avoid it interfering. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Steve, > > Thanks for stopping by and chatting > Actually I would (will) insulate both my backstays as this is very easy > to do. > You will get better performance with a longer antenna on the lower HF bands. > With your mast height you should be able to get somewhere near 50 feet > of antenna. > I've seen using regular ceramic compression insulators if you can do the > wire splicing for the eyes that go through. > This is what I have on the down guys on my 75 foot tower at my farm in Utah. > Nice and safe if the insulator breaks you have two interlocking wire eyes. > This works and is what I'm probably going with when I get to that point > (the sailing rig). > > Later, > Carl > > > > > silascrosby wrote: > > > > Carl, nice to see your boat the other day. You and Evan are doing a > > great job. > > For an HF antenna I was planning to just use a permanent wire from > > masthead to stern ( making the actual antenna 30 -35'long) and avoid > > cutting a backstay. Might work as well ? Steve > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13430|13189|2007-05-29 17:13:35|Paul Wilson|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, it can really screw you up for the long term. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:28:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing brent, you wrote: --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > To avoid ciguatera, fish offshore or stick to fish that weigh under a > kilo. > Brent I gather that in your opinion, the dinoflagelates or whatever they're called that cause ciguatera primarily congregate near the reefs near shore?, something like red tide? I can see where the larger predatory fish might over time accumulate substantial amounts of the toxin, by ingesting a lot of smaller fish, but you think the smaller ones themselves are more likely to be safe to eat.. makes some sense, I just hadn't heard that before. seer ____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13431|13384|2007-05-29 17:20:54|Gordon Schnell|Re: Backstay antennas|Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since > it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a > metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With > a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire > off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will > think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is > AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune > with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 > inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing > it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna > mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as > good as anyone with > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > temporary antennas. > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If > you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great > way to ruin your radio. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@... " > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB > whip > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > on the > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > of the > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > capturing the > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > tuner. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > 7170459 is but one example. > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Paul I might be a little "thick". I'm trying to picture just how you do that with the coax.. Is your entire antenna only 6ft.? A picture would really help me. Or maybe a more detailed explanation. Why am I so interested....I'm not far from standing my rig, I already have backstay insulators and am about to but a radio/tuner. Looking forward to more details. How is house-building going? Gord| 13432|13189|2007-05-29 17:40:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, > it can really screw you up for the long term. Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I recall from back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two doctors in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an islander who was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed sugar (I don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and about in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. As they continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it takes 2-3 hours for complete recovery. A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital in St. Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they hadn't yet heard of it. [a bit of googling later] This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty much the same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a medical magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* to be available on the Web at this late date.) NY Times article: http://tinyurl.com/2tpwhp -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13433|13189|2007-05-29 18:03:56|Paul Wilson|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Excellent information, thankyou. ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:41:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Ciguatera > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, > it can really screw you up for the long term. Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I recall from back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two doctors in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an islander who was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed sugar (I don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and about in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. As they continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it takes 2-3 hours for complete recovery. A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital in St. Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they hadn't yet heard of it. [a bit of googling later] This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty much the same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a medical magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* to be available on the Web at this late date.) NY Times article: http://tinyurl. com/2tpwhp -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13434|13189|2007-05-29 18:17:49|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with grossly expensive equipment. $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their empire and invariably refuse the permission. Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to you, what would you consider adequate compensation? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > was. Divide and conquer. > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while in > fact it is a curse. > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > nothing to be proud of. > > Greg > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing up > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object to > is > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling them > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > and > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional right > > to catch what we need. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples that > > spoil > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish and > > sell it to > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > breaking the > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no money > > and break > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. They > > don't like > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > local > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > have > > spoiled > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > > Fiberglass > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > bastards > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > interest > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it or > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > religion > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does that > and > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish to > a > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > cruising. > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > previous > > > > life? > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - if > > that's > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > clear > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > majority of us > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > then > > you're > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > single > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > fact that > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > the > > fact > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're withholding > > that air > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > old, frail > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > murderer. > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > sum > > game. > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources for > > others > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might want > to > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of sticking > > with your > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13435|13189|2007-05-29 18:21:46|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|You can recognise the high tensile stuff around here because its stiff and hard to bend. The other 1x7 bends like lead. The high tensile stuff, 5/16th has a tensile strength of 11,500lbs. Most of it is still on the cable reel at the scrapyard, but being used mainly holdijg up poles , it is subject to little if any fatigue. I've had no problem with it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Rig an offshore boat with galv wire from a scrap yard? Where did the wire > > come from? What grade is it? How do you know it is strong enough? What > > service has it already seen? How do you know it has not already been > > fatigued? > > Any scrap wire you get near me, probably *was* mine. I guarantee there's a good reason it is > scrap, and I wouldn't be rigging my boat with it. > > However Brent is also correct - if you can find the right place with te right scrap wire when > you want it, you can get a cheap rig. What he didn't say is this isn't all that simple, but it > doesn't really matter. Galv wire rope is cheap enough brand new if you buy it from an > industrial supplier and not your friendly local boat chandler. > > PDW > | 13436|13189|2007-05-29 18:30:28|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|For a copy of my book, please send $20 plus $12 for overseas airmail postage to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0. Canadian or US cash or international money order would be OK Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cristián Carnicer wrote: > > Brent, > > I am interested in buying his book. > Which is teh cost? > That system of payment prefers? > Since I do it? > Regards. > > Cristian Carnicer > Buenos Aires - Argentina > > > --------------------------------- > Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. > Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, > está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). > ¡Probalo ya! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13437|13412|2007-05-29 18:33:45|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|In the early 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland which built steel tugs. When I asked the foreman about corten he said they tried it and it was far more trouble than it was worth. More distortion , more expensive , and more corosion problems. He said the welds were not corten and sacrified themselves to the plate. He said it was unavailable in plate so any other shapes they used were disimilar metals and sacrificed themselves to feed the corten. They went back to mild steel and had no more problems . Aluminium superstucture would be a better investment than corten. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > seer, > add to your list of advantages; that corten will last 5 to 6 times as > long as mild steel. While I applaud Brent's K.I.S.S. approach to boat > construction, I will definitely be dumping extra money into my build, > in the form of aluminum superstructure. I have considered building my > hulls & deck from corten, but will leave the decision until I order > my steel. While much can be saved by cruising the scrapyards for > stainless/etc., I am lazy enough to prefer shelling out the extra > dough & buying from the big-buck steel suppliers. To each, his/her > own. > Regards > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the > weight > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of > the > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same > weldability > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless > on > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any > abrasion > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as > providing > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant > insight > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a > lot > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely > expensive > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about > the > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the > far > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of > taking > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff > schooner,trackless > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, > I'm a > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the > overall > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) > which > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > seer > > > | 13438|13412|2007-05-29 18:37:37|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Wood in contact with steel becomes a major problem after 8 years. The wood keeps swelling and shrinking but the steel doesn't . Even the best bedding gives out after 8 years , then you have wet blotting paper on steel with seawater between. Anytime you see wood on steel more than 8 or 10 years old, you see rust drooling out between. Kevin put wood trim around his ports on a 36 and said there was more mauintenance on that teak trim than on all the rest of the boat combined. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Seer > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > Tom > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go to > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > corectly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 13439|13412|2007-05-29 18:52:05|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Lazy Bones cockpit couldn't possibly have been more poorly designed if it had been deliberately designed for discomfort. Like the rest of Lazy Bones, the total lack of stainless trim on outside corners was an abysmal mistake , one which usually leads to an 80% increase in maintenanace due to paint being chipped from corners, which could have easily been avoided by the use of stainless trim on all outside corners. Ungalvanized mild steel lifelines , handrails and stanchions on Lazybones were laughable . Having had the hopeless task of trying to keep paint on such a poorly detailed boat , goes a long way toward explaining your enthusiasm for aluminium . Had she been properly detailed , your conclusions about steel boats would have been different. If your cockpit is a drop in well, then fibreglas may be an option, but I fail to see the jusitification from a maintenenac standpoint. There would be a weight saving. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > Hello Seer > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > Tom > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go > to > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > > corectly > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > seems to make sense. > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > problems that are worth knowing about. > > http://www.ussconst > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > http://en.wikipedia > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13440|13189|2007-05-29 21:11:42|aaron riis|water tanks|i'm considering if i will epoxy or cement wash a built in tank for drinking water. any opinions? how does the water taste? any instructions on cement washing tanks? Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is > below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or > "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats > to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different > category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting > and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , > jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing > to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going > intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. > What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of > money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not > thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before > making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a > threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and > communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and > mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal > opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if > that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" > wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was > recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the > disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they > have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in > the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and > chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as > a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of > citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors > arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever > developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its > constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind > someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to > eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they > can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less > dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved > when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal > right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the > consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name > calling. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a > few bad apples > that > > > spoil > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, > you catch fish > and > > > sell it to > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. > Otherwise you are > > > breaking the > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up > here with no > money > > > and break > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in > other countries. > They > > > don't like > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try > and leech of the > > local > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A > few are and they > > have > > > spoiled > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: > Aluminum, Steel > or > > > Fiberglass > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single > men , selfish > > bastards > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce > settlement. > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed > , and lack of > > > interest > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on > ,whether you need it > or > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against > the dominant > > religion > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal > boat site does > that > > and > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how > many? It's hard to > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your > tongue. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, > greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to > someone. Sell fish > to > > a > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local > fishermen for their > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is > paying for your > > > cruising. > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out > your === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php| 13441|13412|2007-05-29 21:24:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Sounds like an old argument between you and Ron. I've not seen the problems you talk about, nor have any of the surveyors, which included experienced steel boat owners and builders. Didn't you mention a few weeks ago you had a hatch coaming rot out? I've not had anything like that. The number 1 problem with paint is that it ages, more so in the tropics. It needs to be redone from time to time, and if the area is not accessible - such as around windows, inside the hull behind furnishings, then maintenance problems will develop. Once rust get a hold of steel it is very difficult to eliminate completely without sand blasting, which leads to failures when repainting. However, this is not why I'm suggesting FG cockpits. Steel is uncomfortable. It is hard and unforgiving to sit on. Corners typically have minimal radius. Bang into them and you have a bruise. Fall on them you have broken bones. All metals suck the heat out of you. Cushion help, but then you have problems with them getting wet and going overboard. Plastic does not have these problems. FG has other problems, but for a cockpit they are not an issue. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Lazy Bones cockpit couldn't possibly have been more poorly designed if it had been deliberately designed for discomfort. Like the rest of Lazy Bones, the total lack of stainless trim on outside corners was an abysmal mistake , one which usually leads to an 80% increase in maintenanace due to paint being chipped from corners, which could have easily been avoided by the use of stainless trim on all outside corners. Ungalvanized mild steel lifelines , handrails and stanchions on Lazybones were laughable . Having had the hopeless task of trying to keep paint on such a poorly detailed boat , goes a long way toward explaining your enthusiasm for aluminium . Had she been properly detailed , your conclusions about steel boats would have been different. If your cockpit is a drop in well, then fibreglas may be an option, but I fail to see the jusitification from a maintenenac standpoint. There would be a weight saving. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > Hello Seer > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel supplyers and > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". Do you > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > Tom > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go > to > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would have to > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > > corectly > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > seems to make sense. > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > problems that are worth knowing about. > > http://www.ussconst > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml> > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_steel> > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13442|13189|2007-05-29 21:25:43|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: water tanks|epoxy. they make potable water epoxy that is purpose built for the job. to save cost you can blast (garnet), then use coal tar under, and top with the water tank epoxy to seal in the coal tar. use a mild steel lip, with SS bolts welded up from the inside, with a neoprene gasket, bedding and removable mild steel lid. ss washers and nuts on top. I've filled these with the bleeder closed, way over pressure without any leaks. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aaron riis Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] water tanks i'm considering if i will epoxy or cement wash a built in tank for drinking water. any opinions? how does the water taste? any instructions on cement washing tanks? Aaron --- brentswain38 hotmail.com> wrote: > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is > below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or > "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats > to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different > category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting > and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , > jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing > to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going > intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. > What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of > money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not > thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before > making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a > threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and > communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and > mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal > opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if > that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" > wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was > recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the > disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they > have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in > the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and > chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as > a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of > citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors > arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever > developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its > constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind > someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to > eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they > can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less > dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved > when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal > right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the > consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name > calling. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a > few bad apples > that > > > spoil > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, > you catch fish > and > > > sell it to > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. > Otherwise you are > > > breaking the > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up > here with no > money > > > and break > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in > other countries. > They > > > don't like > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try > and leech of the > > local > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A > few are and they > > have > > > spoiled > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: > Aluminum, Steel > or > > > Fiberglass > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single > men , selfish > > bastards > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce > settlement. > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed > , and lack of > > > interest > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on > ,whether you need it > or > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against > the dominant > > religion > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal > boat site does > that > > and > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how > many? It's hard to > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your > tongue. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, > greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to > someone. Sell fish > to > > a > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local > fishermen for their > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is > paying for your > > > cruising. > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out > your === message truncated === __________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarket ing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13443|13412|2007-05-29 22:02:19|David A. Frantz|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|As to the Corten; I'm of the opinion that the expert here would be the manufacture. From what I've seen on their web site this would be the wrong material to use. +++++++++++++++++ Now the use of fiberglass is a whole different story, in fact I was thinking about such on the way home tonight. Maybe it is great minds thinking alike ;) In any event some issues do come to mind such as the expansion ratios of steel and fiberglass. Getting a good seal might be a problem or at the least require a different design approach. This for cockpit and possibly a wheel house. The deck would be another issue all together as that forms part of the structure of the ship. So you would have to work out the structural issues which in my mind right now is not impossible bit I'm not sure you would want fiberglass playing a role here. One thing is certain molding in special features and curvy shapes would be a lot easier with Fiberglass. Using fiberglass for the deck might be possible if a flange was welded in place to allow for bolting through the deck to the hull. I just don't see any other way to get the mechanical connection between the two materials. I can see some disadvantageous to the use of Fiberglass also. One issue being no ability to weld things in place as you see fit. Another is the expense of building the molds required. In any event I'd love to hear about anyone that has used fiberglass in a steel boat. Maybe not just the deck but possibly other parts of the boat. Dave ge@... wrote: > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > compromise. > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > pieces of > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > Hello Seer > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > supplyers and > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". > Do you > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > Tom > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go > to > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would > have to > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > > corectly > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > seems to make sense. > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > problems that are worth knowing about. > > http://www.ussconst > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > http://en.wikipedia > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13444|13412|2007-05-30 01:57:30|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small sailboats that I can think of.. wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call it a 'gel coat'? :) I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted up a bit more. I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out of aluminum.. Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets loose and flys around a bit... what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, some biased more towards marine use than others.. For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen were for air transport, where weight trumps all. The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > mike > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > seer > > > | 13445|13412|2007-05-30 03:32:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I can't confirm this but I heard that Corten steel warps a lot when welded compared to mild steel. If you are going to paint it, what's the point other than saving some weight? If you are really worried about weight, I would go for aluminum without painting it. You get low maintenance and the savings in paint offset the cost of the aluminum.. If you use steel, a good zinc primer will stop the rusting for the odd chip you may get and I am sure it will be a lot cheaper. All this talk of wood against steel....I must have done something wrong since my teak hatches are still going strong with no rust around them after 16 plus years. I wouldn't go with wood again (I wish I listened to Brent) but its not because of the rust issue.....I just hate varnishing. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 5:57:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small sailboats that I can think of.. wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call it a 'gel coat'? :) I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted up a bit more. I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out of aluminum.. Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets loose and flys around a bit... what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, some biased more towards marine use than others.. For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers.. ..jeee... . now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen were for air transport, where weight trumps all. The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > mike > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/ stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > stronger/lighter/ stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > seer > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13446|13412|2007-05-30 10:29:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have survived. Construction is more an issue than materials. Alloy is used extensively for road transport as well as air transport. Anywhere that weight has a cost. Sea transport is priced by volume. For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, bigger tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these add more weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you need to make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a problem in small steel boats. They are the limiting factor in how small you can go. You don't need nearly the same impact resistance on deck as you do below the waterline. This allows you to consider alternative materials. Reducing weight on deck is a huge bonus for steel boats as it allows you to reduce the size and weight of other parts of the boat, reducing costs, without sacrificing performance. As well, using corrosion resistant materials on deck allows you to better deal with the inevitable problems. On the down-side, there is the problem of joining steel to other materials, with the potential for leaks and corrosion, which requires some ingenuity to solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go a long way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This would allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and simplicity of construction. I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe usually is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 gallons of gas and a match. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small sailboats that I can think of.. wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call it a 'gel coat'? :) I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted up a bit more. I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out of aluminum.. Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets loose and flys around a bit... what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, some biased more towards marine use than others.. For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen were for air transport, where weight trumps all. The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > mike > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > seer > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13447|13447|2007-05-30 11:01:42|mkriley@fuse.net|water tanks cement washing|in the old days the term cement washing was used for a technique of putting a 1/2 cup of portland cement in a foul tasting water tank . It worked by encapsulating the crud in the bottom of the tank which is what usually fouls the water. you put it into a half filled tank when you are moving and have the night at dock so it can settle and harden. Comes out when you pop the access port easily. I have done this to boats that have been sitting for a time, then have to go on a long trip. you usually find out you have crappy tanks after or during the first storm. When the water goes bad,time to look to the diesel tanks also. mike| 13448|13448|2007-05-30 12:58:47|heretic_37ft|Hydraulic steering|Dear Origami people: Tested and approved on Swain 36 + 1': 1) Inboard rudder 2) Kobelt 7005 helm pump http://www.kobelt.com/7005_cut_sheet.html 3) Kobelt 7040 ram http://www.kobelt.com/7040_cut_sheet.html 4) Furuno Hydraulic Auto Pilot 520 http://www.furuno.com/ Comments: The Swain design tracks so well that the auto pilot rarely moves the helm. Uses about 1 – 2 amp! The ship makes plenty of electricity to operate. Handle held control allows dial/push-button steering inside/outside. No brain steering. Cost is high. Need to appreciate hydraulics and electrical components. Lin and Larry would not approve. Stoke factor is 100%. Respectfully, Herectic_37ft| 13449|13412|2007-05-30 13:10:53|Richard Till|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Brent, I have to agree with the NZ shipyard. I started my welding apprenticeship in 1967 and have welded ships, tugs, bridges, pipeleines boilers etc. and recently my '36. As you know I teach welding. Clearly, there is no overall advantage to using Corten below the waterline; if Corten was an advantage I would have used it for the deck on My Island but i know from hard earned experience that the extra cost, time, distortion and frustration does not merit the use of this alloy in small boats. Judicious use of stainless and a decent prep/paint job is of far more value than corten. When building a boat, there are more important things to spend time and money on than complex alloys. My sons and i sailed over to the Gulf Islands last weekend and once again we were awed by the tracking ability of your design. It was a great trip. We were approached by several boaters who offered compliments on the boat including a Scotsman from Vancouver who wished he had not bought a used Roberts. His Roberts leaks, is quirky and is rusting inside. He is an ex-firefighter and may contact you soon with a view to building or buying a 36'. Thanks again for the great design. PS, you may quote or post any part of this. Richard Till, My Island >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... >Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 22:33:09 -0000 > >In the early 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland which built >steel tugs. When I asked the foreman about corten he said they tried >it and it was far more trouble than it was worth. More distortion , >more expensive , and more corosion problems. He said the welds were >not corten and sacrified themselves to the plate. He said it was >unavailable in plate so any other shapes they used were disimilar >metals and sacrificed themselves to feed the corten. They went back >to mild steel and had no more problems . > Aluminium superstucture would be a better investment than corten. > Brent > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > seer, > > add to your list of advantages; that corten will last 5 to 6 times >as > > long as mild steel. While I applaud Brent's K.I.S.S. approach to >boat > > construction, I will definitely be dumping extra money into my >build, > > in the form of aluminum superstructure. I have considered building >my > > hulls & deck from corten, but will leave the decision until I order > > my steel. While much can be saved by cruising the scrapyards for > > stainless/etc., I am lazy enough to prefer shelling out the extra > > dough & buying from the big-buck steel suppliers. To each, his/her > > own. > > Regards > > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the > > weight > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out >of > > the > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. >and > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems >of > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same > > weldability > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will >be > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone >else's > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice >plasma > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of >stainless > > on > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any > > abrasion > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as > > providing > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant > > insight > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know >a > > lot > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely > > expensive > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good >about > > the > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the > > far > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of > > taking > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised >aft > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff > > schooner,trackless > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted >forestay, > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, > > I'm a > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The >fact > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense >etc., I > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the > > overall > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) > > which > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small >level > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is the next generation of MSN Hotmail.� It�s fast, simple, and safer than ever and best of all � it�s still free. Try it today! www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA146| 13450|13412|2007-05-30 18:37:56|jim dorey|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|ge@... wrote: > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > Greg back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the pretty lights and columns of smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, is epoxy any less likely to get out of control?| 13451|13412|2007-05-30 19:06:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|sort of like this? http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard-barbecu e-070606/ Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim dorey Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > Greg back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the pretty lights and columns of smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, is epoxy any less likely to get out of control? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13452|13412|2007-05-30 20:50:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Corten is stronger, but it is not stiffer. Don't believe me, look of the modulus of elasticity for Corten as compared to mild steel. If you have trouble finding it, it is because it's so close to being the same for ALL grades of steel as to be completely unimportant when comparing stiffness. It is also not lighter, again all steels weigh virtually the same. So the only weigh to get lighter is to make it thinner and rely on the higher strength. However the stiffness of a plate is lost as a function of the SQUARE of the difference, so making the plates 20% thinner results in a huge loss of stiffness. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... Ok, apologizing in advance, :) Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing the catch water option for the cabin top. Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, wayward blocks and shackles etc. by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) seer | 13453|13412|2007-05-30 21:36:56|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Well, this, plus the previous comments certainly made up my mind. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Corten is stronger, but it is not stiffer. Don't believe me, look of the > modulus of elasticity for Corten as compared to mild steel. If you have > trouble finding it, it is because it's so close to being the same for ALL > grades of steel as to be completely unimportant when comparing stiffness. > > It is also not lighter, again all steels weigh virtually the same. So the > only weigh to get lighter is to make it thinner and rely on the higher > strength. However the stiffness of a plate is lost as a function of the > SQUARE of the difference, so making the plates 20% thinner results in a huge > loss of stiffness. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > seer > | 13454|13412|2007-05-30 22:35:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 07:37:40PM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > ge@... wrote: > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great compromise. > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces of > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > Greg > > back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the pretty lights and columns of > smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, is epoxy any less likely to > get out of control? I'm afraid not. If you've ever overcatalyzed epoxy and watched it catch fire (it was a hot day and I used the 'fast' catalyst by mistake :), you'll know why people call it "frozen gasoline". I shot some pics of a plastic boat that caught fire and burned to the waterline in seconds. The guy had just bought it the day before; never checked out the engine, just fired it up and went for a (very short) cruise with his family. Luckily, everybody got off safely - one of the local tour boats got there just before I did and took them aboard - but the boat was a total loss. http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire1.jpg http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire2.jpg http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire3.jpg http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire4.jpg http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire5.jpg http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire6.jpg The local Power Squadron has been using these to emphasize fire safety in their training. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13455|13412|2007-05-30 23:36:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|If you used Cycloaliphatic Epoxy that was stored at the right temp as well as what you are putting it on at the right temp it would not happen. Epoxy with addatives to give speed controle till it goes off have addatives that take away from the stringth and quality. It is hard to overcatilize epoxy when it is a 1-1 or 2-1 mix put with poly and vinalester where it is drops to the ounce it is a lot easyer, Depending on what safety rules where broken even a steel boat could be like a wood stove and not fair well. Jon Some places people build it is hard to do what the directions say but they say what they say for safety reasons. The boat in the pic looked like it may have been a perduction boat if so it was eather Polyester or Vinalester. They both burn faster then epoxy. > I'm afraid not. If you've ever overcatalyzed epoxy and watched it catch > fire (it was a hot day and I used the 'fast' catalyst by mistake :), > you'll know why people call it "frozen gasoline". > > I shot some pics of a plastic boat that caught fire and burned to the > waterline in seconds. The guy had just bought it the day before; never > checked out the engine, just fired it up and went for a (very short) > cruise with his family. Luckily, everybody got off safely - one of the > local tour boats got there just before I did and took them aboard - but > the boat was a total loss. > > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire1.jpg > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire2.jpg > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire3.jpg > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire4.jpg > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire5.jpg > http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/images/fire6.jpg > > The local Power Squadron has been using these to emphasize fire safety > in their training. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13456|13412|2007-05-30 23:54:35|jim dorey|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|ge@... wrote: > > > sort of like this? > > http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard-barbecu > > e-070606/ > > > Greg now i sorta miss home, if it weren't for family i'd go back. a cape islander in steel might be pretty nice.| 13457|13412|2007-05-31 01:11:49|greg elliott|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard- barbecue-070606/ cut and paste into browser if this ends up split over two lines, 60 foot steel BBQ Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > sort of like this? > > http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back- yard-barbecu > e-070606/ > > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jim dorey > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:38 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > compromise. > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger pieces > of > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > Greg > > back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the pretty lights > and columns of > smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, is epoxy > any less likely to > get out of control? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13458|13412|2007-05-31 16:42:28|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Hi They did have wooden containers when containerisation first started but rapidly discontinued their use when they found out that they weren't proof against a docker with a forklift truck cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13459|13189|2007-05-31 17:09:55|brentswain38|Re: water tanks|Start with a good food grade epoxy, if the steel is easily sandblasted , or primed. See it in writing before you believe it. If you have epoxy failures down the road in the tank cement washing is an easy cure. Cement prefers a slightly rusted surface. 1 to 1 sand cement mix. It can be limey at first, but flushing lots of water thru it will cure that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > i'm considering if i will epoxy or cement wash a built > in tank for drinking water. any opinions? how does > the water taste? any instructions on cement washing > tanks? > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is > > below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or > > "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats > > to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different > > category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting > > and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , > > jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing > > to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going > > intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. > > What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of > > money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not > > thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before > > making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a > > threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and > > communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and > > mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal > > opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if > > that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" > > wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was > > recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the > > disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they > > have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in > > the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and > > chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as > > a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of > > citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors > > arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever > > developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its > > constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind > > someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to > > eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they > > can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less > > dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved > > when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal > > right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the > > consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name > > calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a > > few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, > > you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. > > Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up > > here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in > > other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try > > and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A > > few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: > > Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single > > men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce > > settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed > > , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on > > ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against > > the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal > > boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how > > many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your > > tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, > > greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to > > someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local > > fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is > > paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out > > your > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > | 13460|13412|2007-05-31 17:12:08|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Going 12 guage steel for the hatch coaming was a huge mistake. Fibreglass may be an excellent option for the bathtub style cockpit. I prefer to run mine into the transom for the best drainage possible so the transition to steel at the transom would be a problem. With the bathtub style cockpit this wouldn't be a problem. You wouldnt want to run the fibreglass to the hull as the twisting loads there would give you leaks and other structural problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Sounds like an old argument between you and Ron. I've not seen the problems > you talk about, nor have any of the surveyors, which included experienced > steel boat owners and builders. Didn't you mention a few weeks ago you had > a hatch coaming rot out? I've not had anything like that. > > The number 1 problem with paint is that it ages, more so in the tropics. It > needs to be redone from time to time, and if the area is not accessible - > such as around windows, inside the hull behind furnishings, then maintenance > problems will develop. Once rust get a hold of steel it is very difficult > to eliminate completely without sand blasting, which leads to failures when > repainting. > > However, this is not why I'm suggesting FG cockpits. Steel is > uncomfortable. It is hard and unforgiving to sit on. Corners typically > have minimal radius. Bang into them and you have a bruise. Fall on them > you have broken bones. All metals suck the heat out of you. Cushion help, > but then you have problems with them getting wet and going overboard. > Plastic does not have these problems. FG has other problems, but for a > cockpit they are not an issue. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Lazy Bones cockpit couldn't possibly have been more poorly designed > if it had been deliberately designed for discomfort. Like the rest of > Lazy Bones, the total lack of stainless trim on outside corners was > an abysmal mistake , one which usually leads to an 80% increase in > maintenanace due to paint being chipped from corners, which could > have easily been avoided by the use of stainless trim on all outside > corners. Ungalvanized mild steel lifelines , handrails and stanchions > on Lazybones were laughable . > Having had the hopeless task of trying to keep paint on such a > poorly detailed boat , goes a long way toward explaining your > enthusiasm for aluminium . Had she been properly detailed , your > conclusions about steel boats would have been different. > If your cockpit is a drop in well, then fibreglas may be an option, > but I fail to see the jusitification from a maintenenac standpoint. > There would be a weight saving. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > compromise. > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just > about > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are > a > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > pieces of > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood > for the > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > > To: Origami Boat list > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > Hello Seer > > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > supplyers and > > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it > was". Do you > > > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > > Tom > > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt > go any > > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , > could go > > to > > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you > would have to > > > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much > weight > > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on > the > > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure > if done > > > corectly > > > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full > pilothouse > > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty > light > > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust > wood > > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > > seems to make sense. > > > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > > problems that are worth knowing about. > > > > http://www.ussconst > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml> > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_steel> > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13461|13412|2007-05-31 17:20:49|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Bang on a piece of aluminium with a steel chisel, axe, pickaxe, etc, then try the same trick on a piece of steel with aluminium tools. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > survived. Construction is more an issue than materials. > > Alloy is used extensively for road transport as well as air transport. > Anywhere that weight has a cost. Sea transport is priced by volume. > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, bigger > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these add more > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you need to > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a problem in > small steel boats. They are the limiting factor in how small you can go. > You don't need nearly the same impact resistance on deck as you do below the > waterline. This allows you to consider alternative materials. > > Reducing weight on deck is a huge bonus for steel boats as it allows you to > reduce the size and weight of other parts of the boat, reducing costs, > without sacrificing performance. As well, using corrosion resistant > materials on deck allows you to better deal with the inevitable problems. > > On the down-side, there is the problem of joining steel to other materials, > with the potential for leaks and corrosion, which requires some ingenuity to > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go a long > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This would > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > simplicity of construction. > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe usually > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > gallons of gas and a match. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in > water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building > things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small > sailboats that I can think of.. > > wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you > ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries > to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops > it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose > in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, > > same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more > abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call > it a 'gel coat'? :) > > I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any > material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until > you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of > nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or > so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or > something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also > like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy > to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted > up a bit more. > > I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be > standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed > the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out > of aluminum.. > > Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, > by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats > where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get > thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and > where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets > loose and flys around a bit... > > what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally > speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked > corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm > talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It > is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. > It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust > when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, > probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard > enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the > galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several > corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, > some biased more towards marine use than others.. > > For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns > out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... > now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of > corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, > lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between > paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite > a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, > a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen > were for air transport, where weight trumps all. > > The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of > corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there > getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up > with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. > > Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a > few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken > into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up > his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. > > I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > > mike > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13462|13412|2007-05-31 17:21:13|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|With the tremedous twisting loads on the hull deck joints, and thus its reputation for being a common source of leaks,this would be the wrong place to change materials. Wheelhouses were long considered a weak point in cruising boats. Steel construction eliminated that concern. Going back to a flimsier material for a wheelhouse would be a giant step backward. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > As to the Corten; I'm of the opinion that the expert here would be the > manufacture. From what I've seen on their web site this would be the > wrong material to use. > +++++++++++++++++ > > Now the use of fiberglass is a whole different story, in fact I was > thinking about such on the way home tonight. Maybe it is great minds > thinking alike ;) > > In any event some issues do come to mind such as the expansion ratios of > steel and fiberglass. Getting a good seal might be a problem or at > the least require a different design approach. This for cockpit and > possibly a wheel house. The deck would be another issue all together > as that forms part of the structure of the ship. So you would have to > work out the structural issues which in my mind right now is not > impossible bit I'm not sure you would want fiberglass playing a role > here. One thing is certain molding in special features and curvy > shapes would be a lot easier with Fiberglass. > > Using fiberglass for the deck might be possible if a flange was welded > in place to allow for bolting through the deck to the hull. I just > don't see any other way to get the mechanical connection between the two > materials. > > I can see some disadvantageous to the use of Fiberglass also. One > issue being no ability to weld things in place as you see fit. Another > is the expense of building the molds required. > > In any event I'd love to hear about anyone that has used fiberglass in a > steel boat. Maybe not just the deck but possibly other parts of the boat. > > Dave > ge@... wrote: > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > compromise. > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > > pieces of > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > > To: Origami Boat list > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > Hello Seer > > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > > supplyers and > > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". > > Do you > > > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > > Tom > > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go > > to > > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would > > have to > > > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > > > corectly > > > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse > > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > > seems to make sense. > > > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > > problems that are worth knowing about. > > > > http://www.ussconst > > > > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > > > http://en.wikipedia > > > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 13463|13412|2007-05-31 21:57:42|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again..wood on steel..|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: Havn't heard about the warping, except in very thin sheets, which are possible because of its greater strength and stiffness. I'll have to check that out. :) as for the "point" that's exactly it, lighter and I can weld it up to the mild steel hull with no probs. can't say that about aluminum. flame sprayed zinc maybe, but paint on? ...don't think you get the same bond. prob with bare aluminum house, 1. attaching it, 2. makes a dutch oven look like a fridge, 3. high "ding'ability", 4. can't weld all my neato deck fittings to it, 5. have you ever seen a young lady in a small bikini (are there any other kind) laying out on an unpainted aluminum cabin top? not likely to either, unless she's into second degree burns :) in all the wrong places :) as for wood, i'm with you 100 percent there, the best exterior teak/mahogany, whatever has in my experience, for some magical reason always appeared on SOMEONE ELSE"S BOAT !!!! hehehe, and usually one with a full time crew who gets to spend their spare time sanding and revarnishing :) seer > I can't confirm this but I heard that Corten steel warps a lot when welded compared to mild steel. If you are going to paint it, what's the point other than saving some weight? If you are really worried about weight, I would go for aluminum without painting it. You get low maintenance and the savings in paint offset the cost of the aluminum.. If you use steel, a good zinc primer will stop the rusting for the odd chip you may get and I am sure it will be a lot cheaper. > > All this talk of wood against steel....I must have done something wrong since my teak hatches are still going strong with no rust around them after 16 plus years. I wouldn't go with wood again (I wish I listened to Brent) but its not because of the rust issue.....I just hate varnishing. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 5:57:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in > water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building > things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small > sailboats that I can think of.. > > wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you > ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries > to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops > it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose > in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, > > same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more > abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call > it a 'gel coat'? :) > > I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any > material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until > you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of > nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or > so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or > something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also > like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy > to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted > up a bit more. > > I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be > standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed > the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out > of aluminum.. > > Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, > by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats > where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get > thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and > where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets > loose and flys around a bit... > > what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally > speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked > corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm > talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It > is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. > It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust > when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, > probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard > enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the > galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several > corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, > some biased more towards marine use than others.. > > For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns > out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers.. ..jeee... . > now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of > corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, > lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between > paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite > a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, > a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen > were for air transport, where weight trumps all. > > The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of > corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there > getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up > with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. > > Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a > few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken > into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up > his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. > > I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > > mike > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/ stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > stronger/lighter/ stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > http://sims.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13464|13384|2007-05-31 22:08:44|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|I never really fooled with lightning rods on my smaller boats but on the 54 ft sloop that towering stick was just asking for it. Never got hit but Stan Huntingford, who designed her, insisted on a lightning 'spike' at the very top of the mast with a huge braided cable running down the inside of the mast to the groundplane he had built into the keel during the contruction.the bolt he tied the cable to went clear to the bottom of the keel and was welded to the stainless 'skid' strake that ran from about a foot above the waterline at the bow, aft down along the bottom of the boat clear to the aft end of the keel. I'd be very interested in the latest thinking on lightning protection, and the preservation of electronics gear in the face of a strike on or near a metal boat. Especially since my boat is to be diesel electric LOL. :) Seems to me several of our members had some expertise in this area. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > This sounds like a great idea if it works! one thing not mentioned > for both commercial insulators and compression fittings is that a > lightning strike will wreak havoc with the insulators. I was > reviewing pics of a job on a irwin 65 that had a boat in the same > marina take a direct hit. current traveled through the shore cord from > the struck boat and > went back up the mast and out on the irwin! the insulators were shaped > like a coke bottle and the plastic was charred but more troubling > was the fact that the compression fittings were only finger tight on > both the insulators and random places on the whole rig where the > fittings were loosened they showed evidence of carbon internally. > some of the toggles had their pins welded to them. > I think that a direct strike would have brought the rig down because > of the fittings. the fittings were only a couple of years old and > installed by a top rigging service! > mike > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch > up..... > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why > since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with > a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. > With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the > wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people > will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the > signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band > won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or > down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having > been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting > an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and > transmit as good as anyone with > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > temporary antennas. > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. > If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a > great way to ruin your radio. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "ge@" > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard > CB whip > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > on the > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > of the > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > capturing the > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays > behind, > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out > without the > > tuner. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of sae140 > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > 7170459 is but one example. > > Colin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13465|13384|2007-05-31 22:12:10|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|1.1 to 1 on all bands?? damn, greg!!! that's good tuning :) course your radio is a 'goodie' :) got one myself LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > I've also had good results with MFJ. I get SWR 1.1:1 or better on almost > all bands, with 15 meters being the most problematic. I like the manual > tuner because it lets me see how the antenna and radio are performing. > Automatic tuners often hide this, but there are also good reasons to have > one - everyone aboard can operate the radio in an emergency. > > Unless you are operating in a single band you typically need a tuner. When > tuning an antenna that naturally resonates close to your chosen frequency, > you have a wide latitude with the tuner - you will get a low SWR over a > broad range of dial settings. When tuning an antenna that is not close, you > need to be very precise in your tuning. Just a small adjustment will result > in a big change in SWR. Also, if the antenna is too far off, it may proven > impossible to tune. The rig may shut down, you may get all sorts of strange > and horrible noises when your try and transmit, or your autopilot and other > electronics may start acting up. > > One thing to check when tuning is the power out. Often you will tune an > antenna, and the SWR will drop to 1, and everything will look great, but you > won't get out. What has happened is that your radio has detected a large > mismatch in the tuning, and shut down its power to protect itself. You have > seen this power reduction as a drop in SWR, making it look like the antenna > is tuned. The final step after you have tuned is to check the power out. > > What is SWR? > > http://www.hamquick.com/tutorial_index.php?id=20 > > SWR is an indicator of a mismatch between an antenna and the radio. The word > SWR stands for Standing Wave Ratio. When a mismatch between the radio and > antenna occurs, some of the power sent to the antenna reflects back down the > feedline to return to the SWR meter and radio. The ratio between the > voltages sent out to the antenna and the voltages reflecting back give you > an SWR reading. If there is a mismatch, it can cause problems with your > radio and antenna, and somewhat degrade performance. > > Understanding SWR Readings > > SWR Readings are given in the following format: > > * 1:1 - A 1 to 1 ratio is the best reading you can get. (The best > impedance match has been attained.) > > * 1.5:1 - A fairly good SWR match. > > * 2:1 A good SWR reading. > > * 2.5:1 - An "OK" SWR reading. > > * 3:1 - Poor SWR reading. > > * 4:1 - Bad SWR reading. > > * 5:1 - Very bad SWR reading. Time to fix your antenna. > > Understanding SWR Readings > > SWR readings indicate the impedance match between your radio and the > antenna. A bad impedance match will give you a reading of 5:1. A good > impedance match will give you a reading between 2:1 and 1:1. A 1:1 is an > ideal reading. It means you have a perfect impedance match between your > radio and the antenna. This also means you are getting no power reflected > from the antenna. > > Fixing a Bad SWR Reading > > A very high SWR reading means the antenna is the wrong length, or there may > be an open or shorted connection somewhere along the feedline. Make sure to > check that there aren't any incorrect connections or shorted components of > the antenna. If there aren't any, then it is time to lengthen, or shorten > the antenna. Here is the rule for tuning the antenna length for a good SWR > match: > > > Transworldradio SWR Rule > Lengthening: The antenna is too short and must be lengthened if: the SWR > reading at the low end of the amateur band is 5:1 and decreases to 2.5:1 at > the high frequency end of the same band. > Shortening The antenna is too long and must be shortened if: the SWR > reading at the low frequency end of the amateur band is 2.5:1 and increases > to 5:1 ant the high frequency end of that same band. > > Using an HF SWR Meter for VHF Readings > > An HF SWR meter is not recommended for VHF use, but if it calibrates to full > scale in the set position, the readings may be accurate. > > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 10:34 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since it > saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a metal boat > there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With a good ground > plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the antenna coax, run the > shield to the rail (or railing if properly grounded) and then run the center > of the coax up about 6 feet to the grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 > inches long to space the wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping > around. Most people will think it is direct short to ground but when you > remember the signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one > band won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or > down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been > doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna > mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as good > as anyone with > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with temporary > antennas. > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a tuner. > The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge since the > excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very "sharp". A little > bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If you try transmitting on > an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great way to ruin your radio. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@easysoftwareinc. com" > com> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB whip > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield on the > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center of the > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, capturing the > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > tuner. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] > On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > 7170459 is but one example. > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/mail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13466|13189|2007-05-31 22:17:53|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Well fine, never liked barracuda anyway :) scare hell out of me when they approach while i'm underwater LOL :) especially a really big one. Remember the first time I saw a six footer, my eyes were popping, especially since a underwater they look about 25 to 30 percent bigger LOL. Then a local told me they grow to ten LOL. no thanks :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, it can really screw you up for the long term. > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:28:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing > > brent, > you wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > To avoid ciguatera, fish offshore or stick to fish that weigh under a > > kilo. > > Brent > > I gather that in your opinion, the dinoflagelates or whatever they're > called that cause ciguatera primarily congregate near the reefs near > shore?, something like red tide? I can see where the larger predatory > fish might over time accumulate substantial amounts of the toxin, by > ingesting a lot of smaller fish, but you think the smaller ones > themselves are more likely to be safe to eat.. > > makes some sense, I just hadn't heard that before. > > seer > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13467|13384|2007-05-31 22:41:54|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|GORD!!! :) was looking for recent pics of your boat :) but havn't found any, and you promised you'd post some more... :) ok for everyone that hasn't seen gord's boat, the craftsmanship and engineering is superlative, and its BIG, as Brent has constantly reminded people, a 40 is a helluva lot bigger than a 36. A lady friend of mine and I drove up to see it and we both were amazed at his workmanship and thoroughly impressed by Brent's design. If you are able to get to the Vancouver area, and can make time to go see it, its well worth the trip, and talking to Gord on site about his solutions to the myriad of engineering problems you face when outfitting a boat, is a near priceless opportunity, speaking of which, I still owe him a promised afternoon/evening, latenight at some of the better local drinking establishments :) hehehehehe. Let me know when you get ready to launch and I'll fly up :) Now, Gord, on the radio/antennae thing, I would strongly advise getting an expert's advice on exactly how best to setup, as you only want to do it ONCE. Find an experienced (that means old fart) Ham/SSB marine installer who's willing to come over and actually 'walk the boat' before rendering advice. Especially with that nifty radar/radio arch you built. I'm speaking from experience here as on the Falcon, they sent over a fresh from college 'know all there is to know" type who charged a fortune but did get everything to work, given enough power....several seasons later, I was up in alaska somewhere, I think Ketchikan, when some of the fishing fleet came in. Turns out there was a retired navy radio ops type there who strolled down the dock and knocked on a port to ask if I wanted some advice. Well a few brewski's later, and I decided to let him have a go at it the following morning. He showed up with some cables, a VERY old manual tuner, what looked like some kind of ocilloscope, and by that afternoon I was putting out SERIOUS signal on about 1/4th the power the kid's setup had required. He also re-worked my back up emergency antennae's (he loved the outrigger dual use LOL). We spent the evening CQ'ing (over a few more brewski's :) some stations half the world away. One of those great 'people' experiences you seem to run into every now and then when messing around in boats:). seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since > > it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a > > metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With > > a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the wire > > off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will > > think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the signal is > > AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune > > with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 > > inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been doing > > it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna > > mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and transmit as > > good as anyone with > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > > temporary antennas. > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. If > > you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a great > > way to ruin your radio. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "ge@... " > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from the mast > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the design: > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard CB > > whip > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > > on the > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > > of the > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > > capturing the > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping lift. > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays behind, > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping boost my > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, making it > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out without the > > tuner. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of sae140 > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > 7170459 is but one example. > > Colin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Paul > I might be a little "thick". I'm trying to picture just how you do that > with the coax.. Is your entire antenna only 6ft.? > A picture would really help me. Or maybe a more detailed explanation. > Why am I so interested....I'm not far from standing my rig, I already > have backstay insulators and am about to but a radio/tuner. > Looking forward to more details. > How is house-building going? > Gord > | 13468|13189|2007-05-31 22:52:57|seeratlas|Re: Ciguatera cure|Ben, That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet passions :) hehehe Thanks seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera > > > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I > > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its > > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never > > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. > > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, > > it can really screw you up for the long term. > > Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I recall from > back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two doctors > in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an islander who > was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed sugar (I > don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and about > in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. As they > continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it takes > 2-3 hours for complete recovery. > > A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, Puerto > Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital in St. > Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they hadn't yet > heard of it. > > [a bit of googling later] > > This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty much the > same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a medical > magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* to be > available on the Web at this late date.) > > NY Times article: > http://tinyurl.com/2tpwhp > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13469|13384|2007-05-31 23:17:52|David A. Frantz|Re: Backstay antennas|Lightening is very interesting in its behavior. If a boat takes a hit there is a very good chance much of the electronics on board will suffer. What is worst the damage might not be apparent right away. If you have ever been outside during a thunderstorm, holding a metal flashlight (don't ask) during a near by strike you can feel the charge in the air. The lighting strike is not just the bolt, which can be grounded, out but a change in voltage potential in the general area. That can have an impact on some electronics, depending to a large part on how well the item is designed and what is attached to it that might induce current flow. Along with that you have a step change in ground potential that can impact items that are grounded through the boat. Unfortunately I can't tell you which issue it was but in Circuit Cellar, a couple of years ago, one of the authors ran an article about lightening protection. This was for a home that apparently suffered through many storms. It may be worth digging up on their web site. About the only difference between a boat and a house is that you ought to have a better ground on a boat and you have a mast or two improving your odds out on the water. I'm afraid that a diesel electric would be at slightly more risk than a diesel with a mechanical drive. It would not hurt to ask about how well the electronics are protected. Just remember that a direct strike tests your luck, there is nothing that is 100% full proof when it comes to surviving a direct hit. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > I never really fooled with lightning rods on my smaller boats but on > the 54 ft sloop that towering stick was just asking for it. Never got > hit but Stan Huntingford, who designed her, insisted on a lightning > 'spike' at the very top of the mast with a huge braided cable running > down the inside of the mast to the groundplane he had built into the > keel during the contruction.the bolt he tied the cable to went clear > to the bottom of the keel and was welded to the stainless 'skid' > strake that ran from about a foot above the waterline at the bow, aft > down along the bottom of the boat clear to the aft end of the keel. > > I'd be very interested in the latest thinking on lightning protection, > and the preservation of electronics gear in the face of a strike on > or near a metal boat. Especially since my boat is to be diesel > electric LOL. :) > > Seems to me several of our members had some expertise in this area. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > This sounds like a great idea if it works! one thing not mentioned > > for both commercial insulators and compression fittings is that a > > lightning strike will wreak havoc with the insulators. I was > > reviewing pics of a job on a irwin 65 that had a boat in the same > > marina take a direct hit. current traveled through the shore cord from > > the struck boat and > > went back up the mast and out on the irwin! the insulators were shaped > > like a coke bottle and the plastic was charred but more troubling > > was the fact that the compression fittings were only finger tight on > > both the insulators and random places on the whole rig where the > > fittings were loosened they showed evidence of carbon internally. > > some of the toggles had their pins welded to them. > > I think that a direct strike would have brought the rig down because > > of the fittings. the fittings were only a couple of years old and > > installed by a top rigging service! > > mike > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch > > up..... > > > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why > > since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with > > a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. > > With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the > > wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people > > will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the > > signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band > > won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or > > down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having > > been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting > > an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and > > transmit as good as anyone with > > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > > temporary antennas. > > > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. > > If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a > > great way to ruin your radio. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: "ge@" > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from > the mast > > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the > design: > > > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard > > CB whip > > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > > on the > > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > > of the > > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > > capturing the > > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping > lift. > > > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays > > behind, > > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping > boost my > > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, > making it > > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out > > without the > > > tuner. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com] On > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > > 7170459 is but one example. > > > Colin > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > | 13470|13189|2007-06-01 03:20:00|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall appearance to the others. You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity many decades before... My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is saying something... for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of what I call "considerable human beings." You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in the first place :) Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." It was a 'kodak moment' :) Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no longer true, but there was a time... Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving us ALL, forward. In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that we natives had some pretty good advice. :) Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) seer ntswain38" wrote: > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > that > > > spoil > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > and > > > sell it to > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > breaking the > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > money > > > and break > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > They > > > don't like > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > local > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > have > > > spoiled > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > or > > > Fiberglass > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > bastards > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > interest > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > or > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > religion > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > that > > and > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > to > > a > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > cruising. > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > previous > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > if > > > that's > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > clear > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > majority of us > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > then > > > you're > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > single > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > fact that > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > the > > > fact > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > withholding > > > that air > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > old, frail > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > sum > > > game. > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > for > > > others > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > want > > to > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > sticking > > > with your > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 13471|13412|2007-06-01 03:33:31|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > survived. I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The alloy impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and fractures, where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the vicinity seemed equally surprised at the result. > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, bigger > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these add more > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you need to > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a problem in > small steel boats. All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to lower the weight LOL . > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go a long > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This would > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > simplicity of construction. Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one over. > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe usually > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > gallons of gas and a match. > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can be worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles as steel. seer| 13472|13412|2007-06-01 04:14:15|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Ok, i'll look up the numbers again. My 'stronger/lighter statement derives from the fact that 1. corten is stronger than mild steel, 2. it can therefore be used in thinner plates achieving the same strength, 3. at least two authorities state that structures in Corten can be made both lighter and stiffer. Now, the corten we're talking about here is one of the high tensile versions using chromium, nickel and I believe some vanadium to achieve its properties. I'll get back with some tech references when i find em again :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Corten is stronger, but it is not stiffer. Don't believe me, look of the > modulus of elasticity for Corten as compared to mild steel. If you have > trouble finding it, it is because it's so close to being the same for ALL > grades of steel as to be completely unimportant when comparing stiffness. > > It is also not lighter, again all steels weigh virtually the same. So the > only weigh to get lighter is to make it thinner and rely on the higher > strength. However the stiffness of a plate is lost as a function of the > SQUARE of the difference, so making the plates 20% thinner results in a huge > loss of stiffness. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 3:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > seer > | 13473|13412|2007-06-01 04:45:38|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I'm missing something here, all i see is a bunch of surfers and an add for the next Fantastic Four movie :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard- > barbecue-070606/ > > cut and paste into browser if this ends up split over two lines, > > 60 foot steel BBQ > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > sort of like this? > > > > http://www.surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back- > yard-barbecu > > e-070606/ > > > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of jim dorey > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:38 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > > > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > compromise. > > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, > just about > > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers > are a > > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > pieces > > of > > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use > wood for the > > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > > > Greg > > > > back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the > pretty lights > > and columns of > > smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, > is epoxy > > any less likely to > > get out of control? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13474|13189|2007-06-01 10:10:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ciguatera cure|On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 02:51:11AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben, > That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. > Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet > passions :) hehehe Funny thing - I meant to make the same comment in regard to your earlier post, where you talked about building things that'll stand up to a "crank old man dropping a large anchor on them" or a "block tied to a flapping trysail" (I'm quoting from memory). That's how I design systems on my boat ("will it keep working if it's turned upside down and shaken really hard? Will it stand up to a 250lb. body falling on it at an extreme degree of heel?") - and it's good to see people besides Brent covering this ground. Thanks. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13475|13384|2007-06-01 12:01:58|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|Note taken. The advice I've gotten so far is to make sure the boat is lightning protected with spikes at the top of both masts (schooner). Lots of conflicting advice on wiring/grounding the electronics, and as for the electric motors, I'm told to isolate them electrically from the hull. The driving current comes from the sizable battery bank, which acts as a buffer between the motors and the diesel driven generators which only fire up on demand as the battery bank's charge is depleted. The system is 'closed loop' ie., the circuit is not grounded to the ship. I assume the steel hull and superstructure will operate as a Faraday cage but I will probably spend some time with an aircraft radio installer to get his/her view on wiring up electronics in what amounts to a self contained metal lightning rod :) hehehe. seer Oh, out here in Arkansas, I made the mistake of reaching for a metal cattle gate just as it was hit by a bolt of lightning. About a foot away, and not quite actually touching the thing, I was still blown backward about six feet and nearly knocked out. I presume by the blast of super heated air created by the gazillion volts sparking thru the dense humid air. It is wise to respect the power of a thunderstorm :) hehehe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Lightening is very interesting in its behavior. If a boat takes a hit > there is a very good chance much of the electronics on board will > suffer. What is worst the damage might not be apparent right away. > > If you have ever been outside during a thunderstorm, holding a metal > flashlight (don't ask) during a near by strike you can feel the charge > in the air. The lighting strike is not just the bolt, which can be > grounded, out but a change in voltage potential in the general area. > That can have an impact on some electronics, depending to a large part > on how well the item is designed and what is attached to it that might > induce current flow. Along with that you have a step change in ground > potential that can impact items that are grounded through the boat. > > Unfortunately I can't tell you which issue it was but in Circuit Cellar, > a couple of years ago, one of the authors ran an article about > lightening protection. This was for a home that apparently suffered > through many storms. It may be worth digging up on their web site. > About the only difference between a boat and a house is that you ought > to have a better ground on a boat and you have a mast or two improving > your odds out on the water. > > I'm afraid that a diesel electric would be at slightly more risk than a > diesel with a mechanical drive. It would not hurt to ask about how > well the electronics are protected. Just remember that a direct strike > tests your luck, there is nothing that is 100% full proof when it comes > to surviving a direct hit. > > Dave > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > I never really fooled with lightning rods on my smaller boats but on > > the 54 ft sloop that towering stick was just asking for it. Never got > > hit but Stan Huntingford, who designed her, insisted on a lightning > > 'spike' at the very top of the mast with a huge braided cable running > > down the inside of the mast to the groundplane he had built into the > > keel during the contruction.the bolt he tied the cable to went clear > > to the bottom of the keel and was welded to the stainless 'skid' > > strake that ran from about a foot above the waterline at the bow, aft > > down along the bottom of the boat clear to the aft end of the keel. > > > > I'd be very interested in the latest thinking on lightning protection, > > and the preservation of electronics gear in the face of a strike on > > or near a metal boat. Especially since my boat is to be diesel > > electric LOL. :) > > > > Seems to me several of our members had some expertise in this area. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > This sounds like a great idea if it works! one thing not mentioned > > > for both commercial insulators and compression fittings is that a > > > lightning strike will wreak havoc with the insulators. I was > > > reviewing pics of a job on a irwin 65 that had a boat in the same > > > marina take a direct hit. current traveled through the shore cord from > > > the struck boat and > > > went back up the mast and out on the irwin! the insulators were shaped > > > like a coke bottle and the plastic was charred but more troubling > > > was the fact that the compression fittings were only finger tight on > > > both the insulators and random places on the whole rig where the > > > fittings were loosened they showed evidence of carbon internally. > > > some of the toggles had their pins welded to them. > > > I think that a direct strike would have brought the rig down because > > > of the fittings. the fittings were only a couple of years old and > > > installed by a top rigging service! > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch > > > up..... > > > > > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why > > > since it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with > > > a metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. > > > With a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > > > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > > > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > > > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the > > > wire off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people > > > will think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the > > > signal is AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band > > > won't tune with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or > > > down 6 inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having > > > been doing it for years since they have such a difficult time getting > > > an antenna mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and > > > transmit as good as anyone with > > > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > > > temporary antennas. > > > > > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > > > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > > > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > > > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these wavelengths. > > > If you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a > > > great way to ruin your radio. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: "ge@" > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from > > the mast > > > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the > > design: > > > > > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a standard > > > CB whip > > > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > > > on the > > > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > > > of the > > > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > > > capturing the > > > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping > > lift. > > > > > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays > > > behind, > > > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping > > boost my > > > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, > > making it > > > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out > > > without the > > > > tuner. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups. com] On > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > > > 7170459 is but one example. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13476|13412|2007-06-01 12:18:05|mickeyolaf|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate the material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at the initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal flooding. How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft bulkheads? Separate compartments with big independent pumps? We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't keep up with a fitting or hose leaking. You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, 1100, 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing ahead to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce the chance of sinking no matter what the material. Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. The huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three compartments. I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is the stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be floating out there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > > survived. > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The alloy > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and fractures, > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the vicinity > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, > bigger > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these > add more > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you > need to > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > problem in > > small steel boats. > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go > a long > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This > would > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > > simplicity of construction. > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one over. > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe > usually > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can be > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles as > steel. > > > seer > | 13477|13189|2007-06-01 12:32:38|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - except aboriginals. Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". Demand equal treatment as full citizens. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall appearance to the others. You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity many decades before... My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is saying something... for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of what I call "considerable human beings." You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in the first place :) Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." It was a 'kodak moment' :) Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no longer true, but there was a time... Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving us ALL, forward. In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that we natives had some pretty good advice. :) Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) seer ntswain38" wrote: > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > grossly expensive equipment. > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > in > > fact it is a curse. > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > up > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > to > > is > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > them > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > and > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > right > > > to catch what we need. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > that > > > spoil > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > and > > > sell it to > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > breaking the > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > money > > > and break > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > They > > > don't like > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > local > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > have > > > spoiled > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > or > > > Fiberglass > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > bastards > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > interest > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > or > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > religion > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > that > > and > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > to > > a > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > cruising. > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > previous > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > if > > > that's > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > clear > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > majority of us > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > then > > > you're > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > single > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > fact that > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > the > > > fact > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > withholding > > > that air > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > old, frail > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > sum > > > game. > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > for > > > others > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > want > > to > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > sticking > > > with your > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13478|13412|2007-06-01 12:56:43|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|The weight of the house creates stability problems as boat size decreases. Weight for weight, steel is flimsier than alloy, wood, or FG for small boats, because of the loss of stiffness in thin panels. Thus, you can make a stronger, more stable boat by using other materials as boat size decreases. Take an 8 foot plywood dinghy - a sabot or similar. Turn it upside down and sit on a large flat panel. Likely the plywood panel will hold your weight fine. Now, build the same boat, to the shape and same weight, in steel. Repeat the exact same test. Very likely the steel panel will collapse under your weight, because it is so thin. 1/48" steel as compared to 1/4" ply on the dinghy bottom, to get the same weight. The only way you could avoid this would be to build in steel using a fine network of stringers and frames to spread the load out, making the steel dinghy more complicated to build and maintain. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... With the tremedous twisting loads on the hull deck joints, and thus its reputation for being a common source of leaks,this would be the wrong place to change materials. Wheelhouses were long considered a weak point in cruising boats. Steel construction eliminated that concern. Going back to a flimsier material for a wheelhouse would be a giant step backward. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > As to the Corten; I'm of the opinion that the expert here would be the > manufacture. From what I've seen on their web site this would be the > wrong material to use. > +++++++++++++++++ > > Now the use of fiberglass is a whole different story, in fact I was > thinking about such on the way home tonight. Maybe it is great minds > thinking alike ;) > > In any event some issues do come to mind such as the expansion ratios of > steel and fiberglass. Getting a good seal might be a problem or at > the least require a different design approach. This for cockpit and > possibly a wheel house. The deck would be another issue all together > as that forms part of the structure of the ship. So you would have to > work out the structural issues which in my mind right now is not > impossible bit I'm not sure you would want fiberglass playing a role > here. One thing is certain molding in special features and curvy > shapes would be a lot easier with Fiberglass. > > Using fiberglass for the deck might be possible if a flange was welded > in place to allow for bolting through the deck to the hull. I just > don't see any other way to get the mechanical connection between the two > materials. > > I can see some disadvantageous to the use of Fiberglass also. One > issue being no ability to weld things in place as you see fit. Another > is the expense of building the molds required. > > In any event I'd love to hear about anyone that has used fiberglass in a > steel boat. Maybe not just the deck but possibly other parts of the boat. > > Dave > ge@... wrote: > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > compromise. > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, just about > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > > pieces of > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood for the > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > > To: Origami Boat list > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > Hello Seer > > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > > supplyers and > > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". > > Do you > > > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > > Tom > > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt go any > > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , could go > > to > > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would > > have to > > > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much weight > > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure if done > > > corectly > > > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full pilothouse > > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > > seems to make sense. > > > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > > problems that are worth knowing about. > > > > http://www.ussconst > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml>> > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel>> > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET .NET>> .NET * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13479|13412|2007-06-01 13:15:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|You are implying that steel makes a better boat because it makes a better axe? A steel axe will sink to the bottom, a wood one will not. So by your reasoning, it would be much better to build a boat out of wood than steel. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Bang on a piece of aluminium with a steel chisel, axe, pickaxe, etc, then try the same trick on a piece of steel with aluminium tools. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > survived. Construction is more an issue than materials. > > Alloy is used extensively for road transport as well as air transport. > Anywhere that weight has a cost. Sea transport is priced by volume. > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, bigger > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these add more > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you need to > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a problem in > small steel boats. They are the limiting factor in how small you can go. > You don't need nearly the same impact resistance on deck as you do below the > waterline. This allows you to consider alternative materials. > > Reducing weight on deck is a huge bonus for steel boats as it allows you to > reduce the size and weight of other parts of the boat, reducing costs, > without sacrificing performance. As well, using corrosion resistant > materials on deck allows you to better deal with the inevitable problems. > > On the down-side, there is the problem of joining steel to other materials, > with the potential for leaks and corrosion, which requires some ingenuity to > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go a long > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This would > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > simplicity of construction. > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe usually > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > gallons of gas and a match. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in > water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building > things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small > sailboats that I can think of.. > > wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you > ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries > to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops > it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose > in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, > > same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more > abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call > it a 'gel coat'? :) > > I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any > material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until > you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of > nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or > so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or > something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also > like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy > to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted > up a bit more. > > I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be > standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed > the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out > of aluminum.. > > Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, > by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats > where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get > thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and > where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets > loose and flys around a bit... > > what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally > speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked > corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm > talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It > is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. > It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust > when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, > probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard > enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the > galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several > corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, > some biased more towards marine use than others.. > > For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns > out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... > now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of > corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, > lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between > paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite > a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, > a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen > were for air transport, where weight trumps all. > > The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of > corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there > getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up > with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. > > Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a > few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken > into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up > his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. > > I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > > mike > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the weight > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out of the > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same weldability > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of stainless on > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any abrasion > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as providing > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant insight > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know a lot > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely expensive > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good about the > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less the far > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of taking > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, I'm a > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the overall > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) which > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13480|13412|2007-06-01 13:35:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....| http://surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/ragsright-buring-boat-far.jpg http://surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/ragsright-buring-boat-close.jpg Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... I'm missing something here, all i see is a bunch of surfers and an add for the next Fantastic Four movie :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > http://www.surfingt hemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard-barbecue-070606/ > > cut and paste into browser if this ends up split over two lines, > > 60 foot steel BBQ > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > sort of like this? > > > > http://www.surfingt hemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back- > yard-barbecu > > e-070606/ > > > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of jim dorey > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:38 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > > > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > compromise. > > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, > just about > > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers > are a > > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > pieces > > of > > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use > wood for the > > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > > > Greg > > > > back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the > pretty lights > > and columns of > > smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, > is epoxy > > any less likely to > > get out of control? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13481|13189|2007-06-01 15:16:09|mickeyolaf|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|It has nothing to do about victimization. You only have to be in Vancouver 10 minutes to realize Canada is changing. Our native peoples and French Canadians know it and are standing up to protect their heritage, land, and culture before it is too late. I give them great credit for having the balls to do so. They are special and should be welcomed as so. Look at the big picture Greg. Aboriginals in Canada have been given a raw deal since day one. "Here is some smallpox and syphilis for you along with some beads. The Queen thanks you for the land." And good on our natives for speaking up now while there is still something not owned offshore to claim. Our resourses are being bought up by foreign countries. If they can't buy the resourse, they buy the company that controls it. The reservation system is not harmful. They are called "nations" now. It protects land from foreign ownership. It entrenches land rights. The land is reserved. Millions of people are immigrating to Canada. They occupy land. There is only so much land. We're not the Dutch. We're not making any more. Our natives are smart to demand land now for their future generations. I know who the Haida are, the Sto:lo, Yuquot, Chief Maquinna and Captain Cook. I know what Metis means. Future Canadians will not care for our history with our first peoples and will instead learn of the prophet Mohammed, the wrongs of Mao. That Tiananmen Square never happened. A land claim? What's that? History predicts the future. Sheer numbers prevail. Aboriginals in Canada should go for everything possible because in the not too distant future no-one will be listening. You should have lots of sons Brent. A hundred years from now Canada will not resemble the country it is today. The cultures populating our shores now will not have any interest in settling land claims or fishing rights with minorities. It will all be about money and profit, politics and religion. It would be smart to turn the fishery over to Aboriginals now. Metis should be given full status. And settle the land claims sooner than later so that some of Canada will still be owned by Canadians. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13482|13412|2007-06-01 16:22:40|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|So does aluminium. So why aren't you promoting wooden boats. Your logic is centuries out of date. Wake up Mr Van Winkle . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > You are implying that steel makes a better boat because it makes a better > axe? > > A steel axe will sink to the bottom, a wood one will not. So by your > reasoning, it would be much better to build a boat out of wood than steel. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:17 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Bang on a piece of aluminium with a steel chisel, axe, pickaxe, etc, > then try the same trick on a piece of steel with aluminium tools. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > > survived. Construction is more an issue than materials. > > > > Alloy is used extensively for road transport as well as air transport. > > Anywhere that weight has a cost. Sea transport is priced by volume. > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, > bigger > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these > add more > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you > need to > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > problem in > > small steel boats. They are the limiting factor in how small you > can go. > > You don't need nearly the same impact resistance on deck as you do > below the > > waterline. This allows you to consider alternative materials. > > > > Reducing weight on deck is a huge bonus for steel boats as it allows > you to > > reduce the size and weight of other parts of the boat, reducing costs, > > without sacrificing performance. As well, using corrosion resistant > > materials on deck allows you to better deal with the inevitable > problems. > > > > On the down-side, there is the problem of joining steel to other > materials, > > with the potential for leaks and corrosion, which requires some > ingenuity to > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go > a long > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This > would > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > > simplicity of construction. > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe > usually > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in > > water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building > > things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small > > sailboats that I can think of.. > > > > wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you > > ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries > > to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops > > it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose > > in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, > > > > same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more > > abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call > > it a 'gel coat'? :) > > > > I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any > > material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until > > you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of > > nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or > > so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or > > something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also > > like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy > > to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted > > up a bit more. > > > > I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be > > standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed > > the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out > > of aluminum.. > > > > Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, > > by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats > > where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get > > thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and > > where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets > > loose and flys around a bit... > > > > what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally > > speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked > > corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm > > talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It > > is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. > > It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust > > when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, > > probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard > > enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the > > galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several > > corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, > > some biased more towards marine use than others.. > > > > For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns > > out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... > > now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of > > corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, > > lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between > > paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite > > a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, > > a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen > > were for air transport, where weight trumps all. > > > > The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of > > corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there > > getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up > > with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. > > > > Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a > > few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken > > into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up > > his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. > > > > I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > > > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > > > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > > > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > > > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > > > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the > weight > > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out > of the > > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same > weldability > > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of > stainless on > > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any > abrasion > > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as > providing > > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant > insight > > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know > a lot > > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely > expensive > > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good > about the > > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less > the far > > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of > taking > > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, > I'm a > > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the > overall > > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) > which > > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13483|13412|2007-06-01 16:33:05|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|The volume of air in a wheelhouse drastically improves the boat's ultimate stability in the inverted position, all out of porportion to it's weight, providing it stays intact while being knocked over, a foregone conclusion with a well built steel pilothouse. This is not the case with other materials, which have a much higher danger of being broken in the capsize. It's not possible to make a plywood or fibreglas wheelhouse as strong as strong as a steel one without it being excessively thick. 1/8th inch steel has the same tensile strength as 5 inch thick fir plywood, too thick and too expensive to compete with steel structurally. The volume of air contained in my wheelhouse adds the equivalent ultimate stability of adding 3,000lbs to the keel. And it aint a big wheelhouse. Like origami hulls, shape is the critical factor , and there is no comparing a flat material with the complex shape of a wheelhouse. There is no way to join other materials with the strength of welding. Then there is the other consideration ;that there is no way to build anything in plywood or fibreglass with the watertight integrity of welded down handrails, cleats, boom gallows,hatch coamings, etc etc, that metal offers. Aluminium is a good option for a wheelhouse ,but not jusitified if it cuts deeply into funds needed for what the boat is for , getting of the treadmill and going cruising. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The weight of the house creates stability problems as boat size decreases. > Weight for weight, steel is flimsier than alloy, wood, or FG for small > boats, because of the loss of stiffness in thin panels. Thus, you can make > a stronger, more stable boat by using other materials as boat size > decreases. > > Take an 8 foot plywood dinghy - a sabot or similar. Turn it upside down and > sit on a large flat panel. Likely the plywood panel will hold your weight > fine. Now, build the same boat, to the shape and same weight, in steel. > > Repeat the exact same test. Very likely the steel panel will collapse under > your weight, because it is so thin. 1/48" steel as compared to 1/4" ply on > the dinghy bottom, to get the same weight. The only way you could avoid > this would be to build in steel using a fine network of stringers and frames > to spread the load out, making the steel dinghy more complicated to build > and maintain. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > With the tremedous twisting loads on the hull deck joints, and thus > its reputation for being a common source of leaks,this would be the > wrong place to change materials. Wheelhouses were long considered a > weak point in cruising boats. Steel construction eliminated that > concern. Going back to a flimsier material for a wheelhouse would be a > giant step backward. > > Brent > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > As to the Corten; I'm of the opinion that the expert here would be the > > manufacture. From what I've seen on their web site this would be the > > wrong material to use. > > +++++++++++++++++ > > > > Now the use of fiberglass is a whole different story, in fact I was > > thinking about such on the way home tonight. Maybe it is great minds > > thinking alike ;) > > > > In any event some issues do come to mind such as the expansion > ratios of > > steel and fiberglass. Getting a good seal might be a problem or at > > the least require a different design approach. This for cockpit and > > possibly a wheel house. The deck would be another issue all together > > as that forms part of the structure of the ship. So you would > have to > > work out the structural issues which in my mind right now is not > > impossible bit I'm not sure you would want fiberglass playing a role > > here. One thing is certain molding in special features and curvy > > shapes would be a lot easier with Fiberglass. > > > > Using fiberglass for the deck might be possible if a flange was welded > > in place to allow for bolting through the deck to the hull. I just > > don't see any other way to get the mechanical connection between the > two > > materials. > > > > I can see some disadvantageous to the use of Fiberglass also. One > > issue being no ability to weld things in place as you see fit. Another > > is the expense of building the molds required. > > > > In any event I'd love to hear about anyone that has used fiberglass > in a > > steel boat. Maybe not just the deck but possibly other parts of > the boat. > > > > Dave > > ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > > compromise. > > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, > just about > > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > > > pieces of > > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood > for the > > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > > > To: Origami Boat list > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > > Hello Seer > > > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > > > supplyers and > > > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". > > > Do you > > > > > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > > > Tom > > > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt > go any > > > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , > could go > > > to > > > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would > > > have to > > > > > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much > weight > > > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure > if done > > > > corectly > > > > > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full > pilothouse > > > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > > > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > > > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > > > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > > > seems to make sense. > > > > > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > > > problems that are worth knowing about. > > > > > > http://www.ussconst > > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml>> > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_ steel > > > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel>> > > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET .NET>> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13484|13189|2007-06-01 16:37:54|brentswain38|Re: Ciguatera cure|Does it take an intravenous injection , or is intramuscular injection OK for mannitol? Does heat affect the mannitol, or can we boil it in water for sterilisation? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ben, > That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. > Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet > passions :) hehehe > Thanks > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera > > > > > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I > > > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its > > > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never > > > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. > > > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, > > > it can really screw you up for the long term. > > > > Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I recall from > > back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two doctors > > in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an islander who > > was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed sugar (I > > don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and about > > in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. As they > > continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it takes > > 2-3 hours for complete recovery. > > > > A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, Puerto > > Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital in St. > > Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they hadn't yet > > heard of it. > > > > [a bit of googling later] > > > > This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty much the > > same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a medical > > magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* to be > > available on the Web at this late date.) > > > > NY Times article: > > http://tinyurl.com/2tpwhp > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 13485|13189|2007-06-01 17:00:14|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|A native comedian on CBC summed up things well when he said "My white next door neighbour discovered my house, my living room, my couch and my TV. Of course he left me a little reservation down by the kitty litter box." If renecks who advocate total assimilation, and feel natives have an unfair advantage, were given the choice of empolying either one of two people of equal qualification, one white and one aboriginal , what are the chances they would each have a 50% chance of being hired? Slim to non existant. So where is the equality? If I stole everything Greg had and then claimed that giving it all back would be unfair and that we should be equal , and he should be given back only a tiny porportion of what I stole, would he accept that arguement? Not likely.Would If he personally had been taken from his family at age six, due exclusively to his race, and left in the "CARE" of a preacher who preached morality to him by day and reamed out his asshole by night, until he was adult, then was told that he was equal to those who, due to their race, were denied this experience, would he accept that arguement? Not likely. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > It has nothing to do about victimization. You only have to be in > Vancouver 10 minutes to realize Canada is changing. Our native > peoples and French Canadians know it and are standing up to protect > their heritage, land, and culture before it is too late. I give them > great credit for having the balls to do so. They are special and > should be welcomed as so. > > Look at the big picture Greg. Aboriginals in Canada have been given > a raw deal since day one. "Here is some smallpox and syphilis for you > along with some beads. The Queen thanks you for the land." > > And good on our natives for speaking up now while there is still > something not owned offshore to claim. Our resourses are being bought > up by foreign countries. If they can't buy the resourse, they buy the > company that controls it. > > The reservation system is not harmful. They are called "nations" > now. It protects land from foreign ownership. It entrenches land > rights. The land is reserved. > > Millions of people are immigrating to Canada. They occupy land. There > is only so much land. We're not the Dutch. We're not making any more. > Our natives are smart to demand land now for their future generations. > > I know who the Haida are, the Sto:lo, Yuquot, Chief Maquinna and > Captain Cook. I know what Metis means. Future Canadians will not care > for our history with our first peoples and will instead learn of the > prophet Mohammed, the wrongs of Mao. That Tiananmen Square never > happened. A land claim? What's that? > > History predicts the future. Sheer numbers prevail. Aboriginals in > Canada should go for everything possible because in the not too > distant future no-one will be listening. You should have lots of sons > Brent. > > A hundred years from now Canada will not resemble the country it is > today. The cultures populating our shores now will not have any > interest in settling land claims or fishing rights with minorities. > It will all be about money and profit, politics and religion. > > It would be smart to turn the fishery over to Aboriginals now. Metis > should be given full status. And settle the land claims sooner than > later so that some of Canada will still be owned by Canadians. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > Injustice was > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > compensation > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > people on > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial > discrimination. The > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > racism. No > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > origin - > > except aboriginals. > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and > their > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system > is > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > themselves not > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special > treatment". > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > appearance to the others. > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. > It > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go > on > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for > by > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to > practice > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could > hunt, > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in > the > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison > or > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you > all > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious > tangential > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like > many, > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother > who > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won > for > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and > about > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got > shaken > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, > the > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his > funeral > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > many decades before... > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the > Soviet > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to > find > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > saying something... > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing > in > > the first place :) > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested > that > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that > homologation > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort > of > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all > eyes > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show > of > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, > but > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For > instance, > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is > no > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing > nature, > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and > sacrifice > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether > living > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you > choose > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time > in > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, > and > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their > own > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and > the > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they > were > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and > what > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that > others > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently > and > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > us ALL, forward. > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who > choose > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there > is > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self > discipline > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which > if > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without > rules. > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > everyone. > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into > gasoline- > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and > farmers, > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not > so > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there > was 'walk > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > seer > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from > the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the > age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution > is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are > on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from > the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the > age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution > is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are > on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > that > > > > > spoil > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > and > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you > are > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > money > > > > > and break > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > They > > > > > don't like > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of > the > > > > local > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and > they > > > > have > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, > Steel > > > or > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > bastards > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack > of > > > > > interest > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need > it > > > or > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > religion > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > that > > > > and > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard > to > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott > wrote: > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell > fish > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for > their > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for > your > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in > a > > > > > previous > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well > be - > > > if > > > > > that's > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a > pretty > > > > clear > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your > cruising, > > > > then > > > > > you're > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over > every > > > > > single > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. > The > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's > mouth; > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > withholding > > > > > that air > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that > there's an > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a > zero- > > > > sum > > > > > game. > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create > resources > > > for > > > > > others > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > sticking > > > > > with your > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13486|13189|2007-06-01 18:54:56|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|On the contrary. The reservation system does great harm. Literacy rates, poverty rates and early death rates on reservations speak loud and clear on this point. The reservation system is a shell game. It rewards a few and they support it very vocally. As soon as you treat any people as a group, based on their ethnic background, that is racism. You may try and excuse it, under the banner of "protecting" culture, language, land, whatever. Make no difference. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Racism is racism. Change is Nature's reality. Adapt or die. Life adapts. Languages adapt. Cultures adapt. Politicians would have us believe otherwise, that somehow we can go against nature, turn back the clock, keep things as they were. In the process, great harm has been done. Greg PS: Syphilis was unknown in Europe before 1492. To blame a disease on someone else is to see yourself as a victim. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN &cpsidt=16847591 Evidence-based research now allows clear separation of syphilis from other diseases in its class of treponematoses. Examination of skeletons from populations with clinically diagnosed bejel and yaws revealed bone alterations distinctive to those diseases, clearly separating them from alterations due to syphilis, transcending the limitations of current DNA and immunologic technologies. These insights allowed confident identification of the New World origin of syphilis. Absence of skeletal evidence of any treponemal disease in continental Europe before the time of Columbus excludes it as site of origin of syphilis. Treponemal disease appears to have originated in East Africa with late transmission to England, perhaps as a complication of the slave trade. The original treponemal disease apparently spread from Africa through Asia, entering North America. Approximately 8 millennia later, it mutated to syphilis. Presence of skeletal evidence of syphilis at the site in the Dominican Republic where Columbus landed suggests the route by which it was transmitted to the Old World. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing It has nothing to do about victimization. You only have to be in Vancouver 10 minutes to realize Canada is changing. Our native peoples and French Canadians know it and are standing up to protect their heritage, land, and culture before it is too late. I give them great credit for having the balls to do so. They are special and should be welcomed as so. Look at the big picture Greg. Aboriginals in Canada have been given a raw deal since day one. "Here is some smallpox and syphilis for you along with some beads. The Queen thanks you for the land." And good on our natives for speaking up now while there is still something not owned offshore to claim. Our resourses are being bought up by foreign countries. If they can't buy the resourse, they buy the company that controls it. The reservation system is not harmful. They are called "nations" now. It protects land from foreign ownership. It entrenches land rights. The land is reserved. Millions of people are immigrating to Canada. They occupy land. There is only so much land. We're not the Dutch. We're not making any more. Our natives are smart to demand land now for their future generations. I know who the Haida are, the Sto:lo, Yuquot, Chief Maquinna and Captain Cook. I know what Metis means. Future Canadians will not care for our history with our first peoples and will instead learn of the prophet Mohammed, the wrongs of Mao. That Tiananmen Square never happened. A land claim? What's that? History predicts the future. Sheer numbers prevail. Aboriginals in Canada should go for everything possible because in the not too distant future no-one will be listening. You should have lots of sons Brent. A hundred years from now Canada will not resemble the country it is today. The cultures populating our shores now will not have any interest in settling land claims or fishing rights with minorities. It will all be about money and profit, politics and religion. It would be smart to turn the fishery over to Aboriginals now. Metis should be given full status. And settle the land claims sooner than later so that some of Canada will still be owned by Canadians. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13487|13189|2007-06-01 19:03:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ciguatera cure|Use an IV drip. Mannitol was found to be ineffective in double blind testing. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure Does it take an intravenous injection , or is intramuscular injection OK for mannitol? Does heat affect the mannitol, or can we boil it in water for sterilisation? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ben, > That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. > Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet > passions :) hehehe > Thanks > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Ciguatera > > > > > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. When I > > > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji its > > > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I would never > > > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its OK. > > > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has had it, > > > it can really screw you up for the long term. > > > > Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I recall from > > back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two doctors > > in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an islander who > > was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed sugar (I > > don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and about > > in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. As they > > continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it takes > > 2-3 hours for complete recovery. > > > > A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, Puerto > > Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital in St. > > Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they hadn't yet > > heard of it. > > > > [a bit of googling later] > > > > This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty much the > > same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a medical > > magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* to be > > available on the Web at this late date.) > > > > NY Times article: > > http://tinyurl. com/2tpwhp > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13488|13412|2007-06-01 19:07:09|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|More name calling. Weak Brent, oh so weak. Axes are axes and boats are boats. One is a solid, the other is a shell. As a result, you end up with goofy, misleading results when you try and compare them. Wake up Brent, they are not the same. A wood or alloy axe can quite easily destroy a steel boat. So can an axe made of water. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... So does aluminium. So why aren't you promoting wooden boats. Your logic is centuries out of date. Wake up Mr Van Winkle . Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > You are implying that steel makes a better boat because it makes a better > axe? > > A steel axe will sink to the bottom, a wood one will not. So by your > reasoning, it would be much better to build a boat out of wood than steel. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:17 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Bang on a piece of aluminium with a steel chisel, axe, pickaxe, etc, > then try the same trick on a piece of steel with aluminium tools. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy boats have > > survived. Construction is more an issue than materials. > > > > Alloy is used extensively for road transport as well as air transport. > > Anywhere that weight has a cost. Sea transport is priced by volume. > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to sacrifice > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger engines, > bigger > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these > add more > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you > need to > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, etc. > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > problem in > > small steel boats. They are the limiting factor in how small you > can go. > > You don't need nearly the same impact resistance on deck as you do > below the > > waterline. This allows you to consider alternative materials. > > > > Reducing weight on deck is a huge bonus for steel boats as it allows > you to > > reduce the size and weight of other parts of the boat, reducing costs, > > without sacrificing performance. As well, using corrosion resistant > > materials on deck allows you to better deal with the inevitable > problems. > > > > On the down-side, there is the problem of joining steel to other > materials, > > with the potential for leaks and corrosion, which requires some > ingenuity to > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would go > a long > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. This > would > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength and > > simplicity of construction. > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe > usually > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, pour in 5 > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > I have this thing about gaskets on things that get torqued around in > > water...sooner or later they leak. :) and yes, they've been building > > things that way for a long time, but not too many commercial small > > sailboats that I can think of.. > > > > wood has been in use for , well since the first boat :) but have you > > ever seen what a wood doghouse looks like when a grumpy old man tries > > to manhandle a BIG storm anchor over the side and accidentally drops > > it in the boat in a seaway? or how about a sheet block getting loose > > in say force 8? tacked onto a storm trysail?, > > > > same goes for fibreglass, been in use a long time now, not any more > > abrasion resistant than it ever was before, after all, they still call > > it a 'gel coat'? :) > > > > I guess I should remind you all where I'm coming from here, most any > > material, even waterproof cardboard, will hold up in the ocean until > > you hit something. If you like to go places out in the middle of > > nowhere, where you maybe see another boat every two or three weeks or > > so...then what happens to your boat when you 'hit something' or > > something hits you, rapidly rises in relevant importance. If you also > > like to gunkhole, poking your bow into places that may not be as easy > > to get out of as they are to get into, then the issue gets ratcheted > > up a bit more. > > > > I've had wood boats, I've had fibreglass boats, and I happened to be > > standing near a multi million dollar yacht when it just barely grazed > > the quay and tore the hell out of the stern quarter..it was made out > > of aluminum.. > > > > Now assuming you're a decent sailor and don't hit things very often, > > by far the most wear and tear on your boat happens on deck. Thats > > where the 'action' is, where things get dropped, where things get > > thrown about, where you fall while carrying something heavy , and > > where every now and then, something hard on the end of a line gets > > loose and flys around a bit... > > > > what is not being said in the comments on corten is that generally > > speaking the caveats they are talking about concern bare naked > > corten...whether as siding, roofing, or the truss of a bridge. I'm > > talking about prepped and painted, just like the rest of the boat. It > > is undeniably stronger, and more abrasion resistant than mild steel. > > It will undeniably (short of salt water immersion) be slower to rust > > when the paint is chipped off, or gouged etc., than mild steel, > > probably similar to galvanized, except that if something hits hard > > enought to break paint, its probably going to grind thru the > > galvanized in the process. It also turns out there are now several > > corten (a trademark of USSteel) variant imitations from other mills, > > some biased more towards marine use than others.. > > > > For me, the key thing is how are other people using it? Well, turns > > out its used quite a bit to construct shipping containers....jeee.... > > now why would someone spend the extra money to make a container out of > > corten instead of mild steel? Well, how about, abrasion resistance, > > lighter weight for same strength, more rust resistant in between > > paintings? Now I know how containers get handled, and I've seen quite > > a few, and to tell you the truth I don't think I'ver seen a wood one, > > a fibreglass one, and if memory serves, the aluminum ones I've seen > > were for air transport, where weight trumps all. > > > > The dutch have built a lot of custom steel boats, barges out of > > corten, quite a few getting long in the tooth now, but still out there > > getting the job done. Other than the cost, I frankly havn't come up > > with a good reason not to go with it for the deck and superstructure. > > > > Oh, and brent, here's another argument for steel. A friend told me a > > few weeks ago about how one of the big buck alloy yachts got broken > > into and looted :) heheh seems a guy got drunk, got pissed, fired up > > his chainsaw and just carved his way in LOL. > > > > I'm still leaning hard towards the corten. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > > > > > an aluminium deck can be bolted to a steel hull with a gasket and it > > > has been in use for over 50 years and meets both abs and loyds > > > standards. There seems to be a tendency to reinvent the wheel here. > > > As far as trying to keep chips from rusting, how about spending 15min > > > a week touching up chips! Primer can be put in fingernail polish > > > bottles for your weekly 15min chores. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, apologizing in advance, :) > > > > Now, in running all my numbers, I would 'still' like to get the > weight > > > > of the cabin/pilot house down a bit more. I keep coming back to > > > > thinking about corten for the deck and superstructure for the > > > > following reasons. 1. stronger/lighter/stiffer. 2. at least out > of the > > > > water, more forgiving of small delays in touching up chips/etc. and > > > > VERY abrasion resistant. 3. don't have to mess with the problems of > > > > isolating an aluminum structure onto a steel hull, 4. same > weldability > > > > and uniform strength of mild steel (i'm told anyway), and 5. > > > > stronger/lighter/stiffer :) heheheh. I understand the price will be > > > > somewhat higher but I'm working on piggy backing onto someone else's > > > > industrial order :) Further, will have access to a very nice plasma > > > > cutter so cutting the corten is less of a concern. AND, before > > > > someone brings it up, I'm going to follow brent's rec of > stainless on > > > > all coachhouse corners, and all other edges likely to see any > abrasion > > > > in order to minimize chips and other paint damage as well as > providing > > > > the catch water option for the cabin top. > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any further experience or gained more relevant > insight > > > > or corten since the last time I brought up this subject? I know > a lot > > > > of people have suggested aluminum, but without the extremely > expensive > > > > explosively bonded connecting strips, I just don't feel good > about the > > > > potential corrosion problems, and heat propagation, much less > the far > > > > greater susceptibility to dings, gouges from dropped equipment, > > > > wayward blocks and shackles etc. > > > > > > > > by way of reminder, my lod is a smidgen under 44 ft., very simple > > > > extended length pilothouse over a raised floor mid cabin interior, > > > > windows/ports that everyone will say are too large :) heheh BUT > > > > carrying a full compliment of bolt down storm covers capable of > taking > > > > pretty much anything the house itself can handle :) small but very > > > > secure cockpit aft of and integral with Phouse, slightly raised aft > > > > deck behind that. Soft wingsail wharram like gaff schooner,trackless > > > > round aluminum pipe masts deck rigged in Very stout deck welded > > > > tabernacles, minimal but stout standing rigging. Masts pretty much > > > > strong enough to be free standing, but given sprit mounted forestay, > > > > and foredeck jumper, (two headsails) standing rigging is a given. > > > > Lastly, having had stainless 'nearly' fatigue fail on me before, > I'm a > > > > firm believer in treated galvanized for standing rigging. The fact > > > > that its much cheaper to boot is just gravy :) > > > > > > > > thanks in advance and anticipating comments on added expense etc., I > > > > have concluded the additional expense is acceptable given the > overall > > > > price of the boat and the desire to build just one last boat :) > which > > > > I fully expect to outlive me and provide my kids with no small level > > > > of enjoyment with their own children for some time :) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13489|13189|2007-06-01 19:11:09|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg, u miss the point, most of the natives do not want to be white. don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role models. And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13490|13189|2007-06-01 19:11:59|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Oh, and one more thing, having had land taken from ancestors by the english is not much of a distinction :) hehehehe I think most everyone non-english has sailed in that boat at one time or another :) heheheh. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13491|13412|2007-06-01 19:16:09|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|i wasn't proposing a corten dinghy..but a darned stout 44 footer.:) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The weight of the house creates stability problems as boat size decreases. > Weight for weight, steel is flimsier than alloy, wood, or FG for small > boats, because of the loss of stiffness in thin panels. Thus, you can make > a stronger, more stable boat by using other materials as boat size > decreases. > > Take an 8 foot plywood dinghy - a sabot or similar. Turn it upside down and > sit on a large flat panel. Likely the plywood panel will hold your weight > fine. Now, build the same boat, to the shape and same weight, in steel. > > Repeat the exact same test. Very likely the steel panel will collapse under > your weight, because it is so thin. 1/48" steel as compared to 1/4" ply on > the dinghy bottom, to get the same weight. The only way you could avoid > this would be to build in steel using a fine network of stringers and frames > to spread the load out, making the steel dinghy more complicated to build > and maintain. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > With the tremedous twisting loads on the hull deck joints, and thus > its reputation for being a common source of leaks,this would be the > wrong place to change materials. Wheelhouses were long considered a > weak point in cruising boats. Steel construction eliminated that > concern. Going back to a flimsier material for a wheelhouse would be a > giant step backward. > > Brent > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > As to the Corten; I'm of the opinion that the expert here would be the > > manufacture. From what I've seen on their web site this would be the > > wrong material to use. > > +++++++++++++++++ > > > > Now the use of fiberglass is a whole different story, in fact I was > > thinking about such on the way home tonight. Maybe it is great minds > > thinking alike ;) > > > > In any event some issues do come to mind such as the expansion > ratios of > > steel and fiberglass. Getting a good seal might be a problem or at > > the least require a different design approach. This for cockpit and > > possibly a wheel house. The deck would be another issue all together > > as that forms part of the structure of the ship. So you would > have to > > work out the structural issues which in my mind right now is not > > impossible bit I'm not sure you would want fiberglass playing a role > > here. One thing is certain molding in special features and curvy > > shapes would be a lot easier with Fiberglass. > > > > Using fiberglass for the deck might be possible if a flange was welded > > in place to allow for bolting through the deck to the hull. I just > > don't see any other way to get the mechanical connection between the > two > > materials. > > > > I can see some disadvantageous to the use of Fiberglass also. One > > issue being no ability to weld things in place as you see fit. Another > > is the expense of building the molds required. > > > > In any event I'd love to hear about anyone that has used fiberglass > in a > > steel boat. Maybe not just the deck but possibly other parts of > the boat. > > > > Dave > > ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > > compromise. > > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, > just about > > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers are a > > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > > > pieces of > > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use wood > for the > > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 6:36 PM > > > To: Origami Boat list > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 06:14:42PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > > Hello Seer > > > > I asked a few years ago about corten steel from local steel > > > supplyers and > > > > they had a lost look on there face "didnt have a clue what it was". > > > Do you > > > > > > > have the actual # of the steel that is eqivelent to corten? > > > > Tom > > > > PS The steel on the topsides of my 26 are 12gage I sure wouldnt > go any > > > > lighter than that when stick welding nomater what steel it is , > could go > > > to > > > > 14 or 16gage with mig but it would be one of those deals you would > > > have to > > > > > > > run a lot closer spacing on stiffners, probably wouldnt be much > weight > > > > savings when finished and lots of extra work. > > > > I will probably catch hell on this one but for weight savings on the > > > > topsides I cant see anything wrong with a wwood cabin structure > if done > > > > corectly > > > > > > I've actually thought of redesigning my doghouse to be a full > pilothouse > > > - but building it out of 3/4" polypropylene sheets bolted to 2" SS > > > risers on deck. Won't rot or rust, doesn't need painting, pretty light > > > when compared to steel, and not all that expensive. I don't trust wood > > > much since it tends to hold water against the steel, but this stuff > > > seems to make sense. > > > > > > As to corten, US Steel has a warning sheet about it - it's got a few > > > problems that are worth knowing about. > > > > > > http://www.ussconst > > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml>> > > > ruction.com/metal/metal/corten.shtml > > > > > > Wikipedia also has a nice entry on it - again, with some warnings: > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel>> > > > .org/wiki/Weathering_steel > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET .NET>> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13492|13412|2007-06-01 19:17:48|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Must have been a helluva shrimp on that barbie :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > http://surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/ragsright-buring-boat-far.jpg > > > > > http://surfingthemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/ragsright-buring-boat-close.jpg > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:46 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > I'm missing something here, all i see is a bunch of surfers and an add > for the next Fantastic Four movie :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > http://www.surfingt > ue-070606/> > hemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back-yard-barbecue-070606/ > > > > cut and paste into browser if this ends up split over two lines, > > > > 60 foot steel BBQ > > > > Greg > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > sort of like this? > > > > > > http://www.surfingt > > hemag.com/news/surfing-pulse/under-fire-back- > > yard-barbecu > > > e-070606/ > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jim dorey > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:38 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've often thought a FG cockpit on a steel boat would be a great > > > compromise. > > > > There is nothing comfortable about sitting in a steel cockpit, > > just about > > > > everything you drop leads to paint problems, and decent lockers > > are a > > > > problem. Having a bolt in FG cockpit you could finish much larger > > pieces > > > of > > > > the interior outside the boat, speeding things up. Do not use > > wood for the > > > > decks unless you plan to scrap the boat early. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > back home on cape sable we got many opportunities to watch the > > pretty lights > > > and columns of > > > smoke when a fibreglass fish boat went up, but they used polyester, > > is epoxy > > > any less likely to > > > get out of control? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13493|13189|2007-06-01 19:36:54|seeratlas|Re: Ciguatera cure|by whom? do you have another cite? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Use an IV drip. Mannitol was found to be ineffective in double blind > testing. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:37 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure > > > > Does it take an intravenous injection , or is intramuscular > injection OK for mannitol? Does heat affect the mannitol, or can we > boil it in water for sterilisation? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Ben, > > That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. > > Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet > > passions :) hehehe > > Thanks > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See > > http://en.wikipedia > .org/wiki/Ciguatera > > > > > > > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. > When I > > > > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji > its > > > > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I > would never > > > > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its > OK. > > > > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has > had it, > > > > it can really screw you up for the long term. > > > > > > Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I > recall from > > > back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two > doctors > > > in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an > islander who > > > was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed > sugar (I > > > don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and > about > > > in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. > As they > > > continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it > takes > > > 2-3 hours for complete recovery. > > > > > > A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, > Puerto > > > Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital > in St. > > > Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they > hadn't yet > > > heard of it. > > > > > > [a bit of googling later] > > > > > > This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty > much the > > > same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a > medical > > > magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* > to be > > > available on the Web at this late date.) > > > > > > NY Times article: > > > http://tinyurl. com/2tpwhp > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13494|13189|2007-06-01 19:41:50|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Low literacy rates, early death rates and poverty rates are the result of centuries of government and church orchestrated humiliation, not the reserve system. If a guy in a red shirt has a heart attack do you blame the red shirt? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > On the contrary. The reservation system does great harm. Literacy rates, > poverty rates and early death rates on reservations speak loud and clear on > this point. The reservation system is a shell game. It rewards a few and > they support it very vocally. > > As soon as you treat any people as a group, based on their ethnic > background, that is racism. You may try and excuse it, under the banner of > "protecting" culture, language, land, whatever. Make no difference. The > road to hell is paved with good intentions. Racism is racism. > > Change is Nature's reality. Adapt or die. Life adapts. Languages adapt. > Cultures adapt. Politicians would have us believe otherwise, that somehow > we can go against nature, turn back the clock, keep things as they were. In > the process, great harm has been done. > > Greg > > PS: Syphilis was unknown in Europe before 1492. To blame a disease on > someone else is to see yourself as a victim. > > http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN > &cpsidt=16847591 > > Evidence-based research now allows clear separation of syphilis from other > diseases in its class of treponematoses. Examination of skeletons from > populations with clinically diagnosed bejel and yaws revealed bone > alterations distinctive to those diseases, clearly separating them from > alterations due to syphilis, transcending the limitations of current DNA and > immunologic technologies. These insights allowed confident identification of > the New World origin of syphilis. Absence of skeletal evidence of any > treponemal disease in continental Europe before the time of Columbus > excludes it as site of origin of syphilis. Treponemal disease appears to > have originated in East Africa with late transmission to England, perhaps as > a complication of the slave trade. The original treponemal disease > apparently spread from Africa through Asia, entering North America. > Approximately 8 millennia later, it mutated to syphilis. Presence of > skeletal evidence of syphilis at the site in the Dominican Republic where > Columbus landed suggests the route by which it was transmitted to the Old > World. > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > It has nothing to do about victimization. You only have to be in > Vancouver 10 minutes to realize Canada is changing. Our native > peoples and French Canadians know it and are standing up to protect > their heritage, land, and culture before it is too late. I give them > great credit for having the balls to do so. They are special and > should be welcomed as so. > > Look at the big picture Greg. Aboriginals in Canada have been given > a raw deal since day one. "Here is some smallpox and syphilis for you > along with some beads. The Queen thanks you for the land." > > And good on our natives for speaking up now while there is still > something not owned offshore to claim. Our resourses are being bought > up by foreign countries. If they can't buy the resourse, they buy the > company that controls it. > > The reservation system is not harmful. They are called "nations" > now. It protects land from foreign ownership. It entrenches land > rights. The land is reserved. > > Millions of people are immigrating to Canada. They occupy land. There > is only so much land. We're not the Dutch. We're not making any more. > Our natives are smart to demand land now for their future generations. > > I know who the Haida are, the Sto:lo, Yuquot, Chief Maquinna and > Captain Cook. I know what Metis means. Future Canadians will not care > for our history with our first peoples and will instead learn of the > prophet Mohammed, the wrongs of Mao. That Tiananmen Square never > happened. A land claim? What's that? > > History predicts the future. Sheer numbers prevail. Aboriginals in > Canada should go for everything possible because in the not too > distant future no-one will be listening. You should have lots of sons > Brent. > > A hundred years from now Canada will not resemble the country it is > today. The cultures populating our shores now will not have any > interest in settling land claims or fishing rights with minorities. > It will all be about money and profit, politics and religion. > > It would be smart to turn the fishery over to Aboriginals now. Metis > should be given full status. And settle the land claims sooner than > later so that some of Canada will still be owned by Canadians. > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > Injustice was > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > compensation > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > people on > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial > discrimination. The > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > racism. No > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > origin - > > except aboriginals. > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and > their > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system > is > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > themselves not > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special > treatment". > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > appearance to the others. > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. > It > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go > on > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for > by > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to > practice > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could > hunt, > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in > the > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison > or > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you > all > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious > tangential > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like > many, > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother > who > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won > for > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and > about > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got > shaken > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, > the > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his > funeral > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > many decades before... > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the > Soviet > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to > find > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > saying something... > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing > in > > the first place :) > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested > that > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that > homologation > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort > of > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all > eyes > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show > of > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, > but > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For > instance, > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is > no > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing > nature, > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and > sacrifice > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether > living > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you > choose > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time > in > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, > and > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their > own > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and > the > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they > were > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and > what > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that > others > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently > and > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > us ALL, forward. > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who > choose > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there > is > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self > discipline > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which > if > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without > rules. > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > everyone. > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into > gasoline- > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and > farmers, > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not > so > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there > was 'walk > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > seer > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from > the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the > age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution > is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are > on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from > the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the > age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution > is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are > on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > that > > > > > spoil > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > and > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you > are > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > money > > > > > and break > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > They > > > > > don't like > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of > the > > > > local > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and > they > > > > have > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, > Steel > > > or > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > bastards > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack > of > > > > > interest > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need > it > > > or > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > religion > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > that > > > > and > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard > to > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott > wrote: > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell > fish > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for > their > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for > your > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in > a > > > > > previous > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well > be - > > > if > > > > > that's > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a > pretty > > > > clear > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your > cruising, > > > > then > > > > > you're > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over > every > > > > > single > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. > The > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's > mouth; > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > withholding > > > > > that air > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that > there's an > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a > zero- > > > > sum > > > > > game. > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create > resources > > > for > > > > > others > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > sticking > > > > > with your > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13495|13189|2007-06-01 19:48:27|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I remember reading of a conversation between Captain Cook and a Tongan. Cook explained the money system. The tongan said "That explains a lot. We have only food . If we don't give it away , it spoils anyway. With money you get to hoard it. That explains why you people are so greedy." Ditto Europeans in the Americas and elsewhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Greg, > > u miss the point, > most of the natives do not want to be white. > don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, > the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, > or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich > drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role models. > > And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > Injustice was > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > compensation > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > people on > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > racism. No > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > origin - > > except aboriginals. > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > themselves not > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > appearance to the others. > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > many decades before... > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > saying something... > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > > the first place :) > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > us ALL, forward. > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > everyone. > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > seer > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > that > > > > > spoil > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > and > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > money > > > > > and break > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > They > > > > > don't like > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > > local > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > > have > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > > or > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > bastards > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > > interest > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > > or > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > religion > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > that > > > > and > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > > previous > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > > if > > > > > that's > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > > clear > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > > then > > > > > you're > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > > single > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > withholding > > > > > that air > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > > sum > > > > > game. > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > > for > > > > > others > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > sticking > > > > > with your > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13496|13189|2007-06-01 20:21:05|sae140|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Oh, and one more thing, having had land taken from ancestors by the > english is not much of a distinction :) hehehehe I think most everyone > non-english has sailed in that boat at one time or another :) heheheh. > > seer Not just the non-English .... The various Land Enclosure Acts are often portrayed as being a mechanism to make agriculture more efficient, whereas they were also a means by which the English peasantry - who retained a small degree of economic independence by farming their small strips of land and grazing on common land - were effectively robbed by the Land-owning classes. Good summary at: http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9652 So - we've all been screwed by the English aristocracy .... Colin| 13497|13384|2007-06-01 20:29:41|Gordon Schnell|Re: Backstay antennas|Seer Thanks for the good words. I'm an electronics guy...but even with that, I will be leaning heavily on a couple of my friends who are "radio freaks". There's a lot of "black magic" in setting up a radio system, I have learned. Do pop by for the "brewskis" and a visit. That invite goes for any of you builders out there. I need brains to pick! Caio Gord seeratlas wrote: > > GORD!!! > > :) was looking for recent pics of your boat :) but havn't found any, > and you promised you'd post some more... :) > > ok for everyone that hasn't seen gord's boat, the craftsmanship and > engineering is superlative, and its BIG, as Brent has constantly > reminded people, a 40 is a helluva lot bigger than a 36. A lady friend > of mine and I drove up to see it and we both were amazed at his > workmanship and thoroughly impressed by Brent's design. If you are > able to get to the Vancouver area, and can make time to go see it, its > well worth the trip, and talking to Gord on site about his solutions > to the myriad of engineering problems you face when outfitting a boat, > is a near priceless opportunity, speaking of which, I still owe him a > promised afternoon/evening, latenight at some of the better local > drinking establishments :) hehehehehe. Let me know when you get ready > to launch and I'll fly up :) > > Now, Gord, on the radio/antennae thing, I would strongly advise > getting an expert's advice on exactly how best to setup, as you only > want to do it ONCE. Find an experienced (that means old fart) Ham/SSB > marine installer who's willing to come over and actually 'walk the > boat' before rendering advice. Especially with that nifty radar/radio > arch you built. I'm speaking from experience here as on the Falcon, > they sent over a fresh from college 'know all there is to know" type > who charged a fortune but did get everything to work, given enough > power....several seasons later, I was up in alaska somewhere, I think > Ketchikan, when some of the fishing fleet came in. Turns out there was > a retired navy radio ops type there who strolled down the dock and > knocked on a port to ask if I wanted some advice. Well a few brewski's > later, and I decided to let him have a go at it the following morning. > He showed up with some cables, a VERY old manual tuner, what looked > like some kind of ocilloscope, and by that afternoon I was putting out > SERIOUS signal on about 1/4th the power the kid's setup had required. > He also re-worked my back up emergency antennae's (he loved the > outrigger dual use LOL). We spent the evening CQ'ing (over a few more > brewski's :) some stations half the world away. One of those great > 'people' experiences you seem to run into every now and then when > messing around in boats:). > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch > up..... > > > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since > > > it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a > > > metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With > > > a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > > > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > > > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > > > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the > wire > > > off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will > > > think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the > signal is > > > AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune > > > with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 > > > inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been > doing > > > it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna > > > mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and > transmit as > > > good as anyone with > > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > > > temporary antennas. > > > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > > > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > > > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > > > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these > wavelengths. If > > > you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a > great > > > way to ruin your radio. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: "ge@... " > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from > the mast > > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the > design: > > > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a > standard CB > > > whip > > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > > > on the > > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > > > of the > > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > > > capturing the > > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping > lift. > > > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays > behind, > > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping > boost my > > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, > making it > > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out > without the > > > tuner. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups. com] On > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > > 7170459 is but one example. > > > Colin > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Paul > > I might be a little "thick". I'm trying to picture just how you do that > > with the coax.. Is your entire antenna only 6ft.? > > A picture would really help me. Or maybe a more detailed explanation. > > Why am I so interested....I'm not far from standing my rig, I already > > have backstay insulators and am about to but a radio/tuner. > > Looking forward to more details. > > How is house-building going? > > Gord > > > > | 13498|13189|2007-06-01 20:35:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Tonga has no winter to get through. Changes in latitude, changes in attitude. Travel the world you will come to understand. There is no such thing as race. People are shaped by the weather in the place where they live, nothing more. Genetically we are all the same. Lumping people together based on their ethnic background is racism. Bigotry, plain and simple. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing I remember reading of a conversation between Captain Cook and a Tongan. Cook explained the money system. The tongan said "That explains a lot. We have only food . If we don't give it away , it spoils anyway. With money you get to hoard it. That explains why you people are so greedy." Ditto Europeans in the Americas and elsewhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Greg, > > u miss the point, > most of the natives do not want to be white. > don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, > the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, > or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich > drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role models. > > And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > Injustice was > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > compensation > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > people on > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > racism. No > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > origin - > > except aboriginals. > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > themselves not > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > appearance to the others. > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > many decades before... > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > saying something... > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > > the first place :) > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > us ALL, forward. > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > everyone. > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > seer > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > that > > > > > spoil > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > and > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > money > > > > > and break > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > They > > > > > don't like > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > > local > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > > have > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > > or > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > bastards > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > > interest > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > > or > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > religion > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > that > > > > and > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > > previous > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > > if > > > > > that's > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > > clear > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > > then > > > > > you're > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > > single > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > withholding > > > > > that air > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > > sum > > > > > game. > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > > for > > > > > others > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > sticking > > > > > with your > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13499|13412|2007-06-01 20:43:24|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you think that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers on my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my property, or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate the > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at the > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > flooding. > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft bulkheads? > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't keep > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, 1100, > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing ahead > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce the > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. The > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > compartments. > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is the > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be floating > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > boats have > > > survived. > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The > alloy > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > fractures, > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > vicinity > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > sacrifice > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > engines, > > bigger > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of these > > add more > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as you > > need to > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, etc, > etc. > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > problem in > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit would > go > > a long > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. > This > > would > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull strength > and > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one over. > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An axe > > usually > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > pour in 5 > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can be > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles as > > steel. > > > > > > seer > > > | 13500|13189|2007-06-01 20:55:05|Mike|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|That, is some very twisted logic. Why, would any first nations person want to capitulate to a "second nation's" government, especially when the second nation's "justice" system has already ruled that the rest of us in Canada are, bluntly, illegal squatters? If this same justice system had had any balls, "it" would be chomping at our fed. & prov. governments' asses, for dragging out the payback for so long. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13501|13384|2007-06-01 21:34:16|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|Bet on it :) but you're right about the blackmagic..I once posed a wave propagation question on a ham site and one guy came back with something about "well, First you get a chicken..." LOL, i was thinking WTF? LOL, I fell for it hook, line and sinker... so I asked "a chicken? what the hell do I need a chicken for".. his reply..with the whole group laughing their azzes off no doubt.. "Its da VOODOO MON... you gots to sacrifice a chicken..." rflmao Unfortunately, sometimes I think he was right :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Seer > Thanks for the good words. > I'm an electronics guy...but even with that, I will be leaning heavily > on a couple of my friends who are "radio freaks". > There's a lot of "black magic" in setting up a radio system, I have learned. > Do pop by for the "brewskis" and a visit. That invite goes for any of > you builders out there. I need brains to pick! > Caio > Gord > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > GORD!!! > > > > :) was looking for recent pics of your boat :) but havn't found any, > > and you promised you'd post some more... :) > > > > ok for everyone that hasn't seen gord's boat, the craftsmanship and > > engineering is superlative, and its BIG, as Brent has constantly > > reminded people, a 40 is a helluva lot bigger than a 36. A lady friend > > of mine and I drove up to see it and we both were amazed at his > > workmanship and thoroughly impressed by Brent's design. If you are > > able to get to the Vancouver area, and can make time to go see it, its > > well worth the trip, and talking to Gord on site about his solutions > > to the myriad of engineering problems you face when outfitting a boat, > > is a near priceless opportunity, speaking of which, I still owe him a > > promised afternoon/evening, latenight at some of the better local > > drinking establishments :) hehehehehe. Let me know when you get ready > > to launch and I'll fly up :) > > > > Now, Gord, on the radio/antennae thing, I would strongly advise > > getting an expert's advice on exactly how best to setup, as you only > > want to do it ONCE. Find an experienced (that means old fart) Ham/SSB > > marine installer who's willing to come over and actually 'walk the > > boat' before rendering advice. Especially with that nifty radar/radio > > arch you built. I'm speaking from experience here as on the Falcon, > > they sent over a fresh from college 'know all there is to know" type > > who charged a fortune but did get everything to work, given enough > > power....several seasons later, I was up in alaska somewhere, I think > > Ketchikan, when some of the fishing fleet came in. Turns out there was > > a retired navy radio ops type there who strolled down the dock and > > knocked on a port to ask if I wanted some advice. Well a few brewski's > > later, and I decided to let him have a go at it the following morning. > > He showed up with some cables, a VERY old manual tuner, what looked > > like some kind of ocilloscope, and by that afternoon I was putting out > > SERIOUS signal on about 1/4th the power the kid's setup had required. > > He also re-worked my back up emergency antennae's (he loved the > > outrigger dual use LOL). We spent the evening CQ'ing (over a few more > > brewski's :) some stations half the world away. One of those great > > 'people' experiences you seem to run into every now and then when > > messing around in boats:). > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Gordon Schnell > > wrote: > > > > > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everybody, I have been away for awhile and trying to catch > > up..... > > > > > > > > I don't know anyone else doing this and I really don't know why since > > > > it saves money and works great. Everybody should know that with a > > > > metal boat there is no reason to use backstay insulators at all. With > > > > a good ground plane, you can use a ground-fed antenna. Take the > > > > antenna coax, run the shield to the rail (or railing if properly > > > > grounded) and then run the center of the coax up about 6 feet to the > > > > grounded backstay. I use spacers about 2 inches long to space the > > wire > > > > off the backstay and keep it from flapping around. Most people will > > > > think it is direct short to ground but when you remember the > > signal is > > > > AC and not DC it makes more sense. If you find one band won't tune > > > > with your tuner, try moving the wire on the backstay up or down 6 > > > > inches until it works OK. It's not my idea; aircraft having been > > doing > > > > it for years since they have such a difficult time getting an antenna > > > > mounted. I am using a MFJ manual tuner and and receive and > > transmit as > > > > good as anyone with > > > > this rig. No expensive insulators, and no screwing around with > > > > temporary antennas. > > > > > > > > Another general note, I think with a metal boat it is vital to use a > > > > tuner. The difference between being tuned up properly and not is huge > > > > since the excellent ground plane of a metal boat makes tuning very > > > > "sharp". A little bit off makes a huge deal with these > > wavelengths. If > > > > you try transmitting on an HF that isn't properly tuned, it is a > > great > > > > way to ruin your radio. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: "ge@ " > > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:47:40 AM > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > > > A wire topping lift, with rope ends as insulators, top fed from > > the mast > > > > head work very well. I've used this for 20 years, and have one of the > > > > strongest signals anywhere. I discovered it quite by accident, when I > > > > hooked an existing mast head CB antenna up to my HF. Here is the > > design: > > > > > > > > Run RG8 from the antenna tuner to the mast head. Install a > > standard CB > > > > whip > > > > antenna base at the mast head (a few $ from radio Shack). The shield > > > > on the > > > > coax will be grounded through this base to the mast. From the center > > > > of the > > > > base, rather than installing a whip, insert a SS bolt to fit, > > > > capturing the > > > > feed wire for the antenna. Run this feed wire to the wire topping > > lift. > > > > > > > > I've always wondered if the topping lift, with the twin backstays > > behind, > > > > and the mast in front, doesn't function as a huge Yagi, helping > > boost my > > > > signal. On the Bones the wire topping lift is 10 meters long, > > making it > > > > automatically tuned for 20 meters, in case we need to get out > > without the > > > > tuner. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups. com] On > > > > Behalf Of sae140 > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:24 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Backstay antennas > > > > > > > > For anyone contemplating fiting a backstay antenna, it might be worth > > > > doing a US Patent search to see what alternatives exist. There are > > > > several patents lodged there for variations on a method which involves > > > > attaching an antenna to the existing stay, rather than cutting it. > > > > 7170459 is but one example. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > I might be a little "thick". I'm trying to picture just how you do that > > > with the coax.. Is your entire antenna only 6ft.? > > > A picture would really help me. Or maybe a more detailed explanation. > > > Why am I so interested....I'm not far from standing my rig, I already > > > have backstay insulators and am about to but a radio/tuner. > > > Looking forward to more details. > > > How is house-building going? > > > Gord > > > > > > > > | 13502|13189|2007-06-01 22:37:57|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg wrote: Travel the world you will come to understand. There is no such thing as race. >ive, > nothing more. Genetically we are all the same. > > Lumping people together based on their ethnic background is racism. > Bigotry, plain and simple. > > Greg > could be I suppose, but sometimes you sure get accurate predictions of behavior by doing it..and if you can overcome the leftist guilt about doing it, you might just keep your head taking precautions based on it. did I tell you about the last seven flights I've taken with my 86 year old grey haired 5'2" mother? She's been pulled over and wanded, searched , EVERY SINGLE TIME..and twice damn near strip searched. Ask Gord, I'm about 6'4, 230 or so, hair to my shoulders, nearly black eyes and only smile on very rare occasions...Since 911, I have NEVER been searched... what's wrong with this picture? Hard to believe my mother poses a greater potential threat than I do..who do we think we're kidding here? It's a damned farce and an inconvenient one at that. right now I think a little racial profiling would be a good thing. This political correctness bit has gotten way out of hand. Course the left is constantly rattling off that the american immigrant muslim community is sooooo much more moderate than the 'foreign kind'..(jeez...make em sound like domesticated ponies). I'm glad someone actually went out and finally took a poll...turns out I think it was 55 percent or more of our muslim homies think that homicide bombing of innocents is justified under some circumstances?..The numbers were similar or even worse in Great Britain if I remember correctly. Now, if you don't believe there's a difference between the muslim east and the caucasian west, its YOU who need to do a little traveling... I've seen american soldiers cut things off of bodies, but they weren't alive at the time. Far different than six guys holding down some poor sob engineer and cutting off his head with a dull knife in the name of God. I just hope the muslim moderates wake up before its too late and realize that its THEY who are the targets, not the caucasian west. Ever witnessed an Indonesian spec ops field interrogation? I have, and comparatively the guy who got his head cut off had BY FAR the easier exit....Now THAT's saying something. To be fair, our native populations here have in the past, like a hundred years ago,,engaged in their own little "rituals" and in my own heritage, the comanche were particularly creative in the tortures they devised for their enemies....ever wonder why the 'fierce Apache' lived in the desert? you think they voted to go out there? But again, this was over a hundred years ago; these 'heroes' in the mid and far east do this stuff on a daily basis, and they do it now, in the 21st century, and they do it for "God"..... People say, "oh but look how they've been wronged.they're no different than anybody else."..OH REALLY....well jeez, where then are the tibetan monk homicide bombers? or the armenian homicide bombers, or the sephardic jew homicide bombers? or the african pigmy homicide bombers? or for that matter, the Lakota homicide bombers? If we could get some of our weenie state department types to actually read the Koran, perhaps they'd wake up too...its all in there folks...a roadmap straight back to the middle ages....convert or die and a whole culture is buying into it... We've done the middle ages already, include me out. Oh, and while I'm on this yet another rant..(damn I'm getting old) you know how the western history books always talk about the great muslim leader Saladin? Honorable Adversary of Richard the Lion Heart and the arab hero who took back Jerusalem? Got news for you. This group of muslims cares jack about Saladin, go look up a guy we don't hardly even talk about in the west, many of you have probably never heard of him and for good reason. He was called Babar. seer Oh, Brent, that line of yours about it being hard to communicate when one is biting one's tongue. That's one of the best one's I've ever heard LOL. I'm going to use that in the future hehehehe.| 13503|13412|2007-06-01 22:51:42|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that given a chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit her out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a lot to say about peace of mind while on the sea. For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was taken out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In just seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily reinforced bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately the designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue here as to why. I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) seer as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out there in the north pacific. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you think > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers on > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my property, > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate > the > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at > the > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > > flooding. > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > bulkheads? > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't > keep > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > 1100, > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > ahead > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce > the > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. > The > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > compartments. > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is > the > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > floating > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > > boats have > > > > survived. > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The > > alloy > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > fractures, > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > vicinity > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > sacrifice > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > engines, > > > bigger > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of > these > > > add more > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as > you > > > need to > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, > etc, > > etc. > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > > problem in > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > would > > go > > > a long > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. > > This > > > would > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > strength > > and > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An > axe > > > usually > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > > pour in 5 > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can > be > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles > as > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 13504|13504|2007-06-01 23:08:17|Phil S.|Posting Etiquette|Gents, PLEASE, I am begging here, delete the text you are responding to unless it is pertinent to your reply. It really sucks having to scroll through 4 billions lines of garbage to get to the point or the next message. Greg, Brent, grow up, I quit getting messages from the group because of your childish bickering. I enjoy greatly the different points of view about sailing, and steel boat construction but the other BS is getting to be to much. Regards Phil Sacchitella| 13505|13189|2007-06-01 23:47:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ciguatera cure|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera There is no effective treatment or antidote for ciguatera poisoning. Previously mannitol was used for poisoning after 1 study reported the reversal of symptoms following its use.[11] Follow up studies in animals[12] and case reports in humans[13] also found benefit from mannitol. However, a randomized, controlled, double-blinded, clinical trial of mannitol for ciguatera poisoning did not find any difference between mannitol and normal saline,[14] based on this result mannitol is no longer recommended.[5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve &db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11914401 Neurology. 2002 Mar 26;58(6):873-80. Related Articles, Links Click here to read Ciguatera fish poisoning: a double-blind randomized trial of mannitol therapy. Schnorf H, Taurarii M, Cundy T. Neurology Clinic, University Hospital of Geneva, Switzerland. HansSchnorf@... BACKGROUND: Ciguatera poisoning (CP) is worldwide the most common fish-borne illness and one of the most common forms of nonbacterial food poisoning. IV mannitol is considered the treatment of choice for CP but has not been evaluated in a double-blind randomized trial. METHODS: A prospective clinical study of 50 patients with CP on Rarotonga, Cook Islands, was conducted to better define the neurologic picture of CP and to study the effect of mannitol or normal saline under double-blind randomized conditions over a 24-hour period. RESULTS: The neurologic presentation of CP was that of a predominantly sensory, length-dependent polyneuropathy, with preferential small-fiber involvement. Motor paresis, cranial nerve dysfunction, and CNS abnormalities were absent but for a rare mild transitory cerebellar syndrome. At 24 hours, 96% of mannitol-treated patients and 92% of normal saline-treated patients had some improvement of symptoms (p = 1.0), whereas 12% and 24% of patients in each group were asymptomatic (p = 0.46). By 24 hours, the prevalence of the various polyneuropathic symptoms and signs was reduced roughly by half in both groups. Discomfort or pain along the vein used for infusion was more frequent in the mannitol group (84%) than in the normal saline group (36%) (p = 0.0015). CONCLUSION: Mannitol was not superior to normal saline in relieving symptoms and signs of CP at 24 hours in this study population but had more side effects. These results do not support single-dose mannitol as standard treatment for CP. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure by whom? do you have another cite? seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Use an IV drip. Mannitol was found to be ineffective in double blind > testing. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 1:37 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure > > > > Does it take an intravenous injection , or is intramuscular > injection OK for mannitol? Does heat affect the mannitol, or can we > boil it in water for sterilisation? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Ben, > > That's a great contribution to the group. Invaluable really. > > Avoiding death or serious injury has always been one of my pet > > passions :) hehehe > > Thanks > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:13:20PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > True....its usually worse in bigger,predatory fish. See > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/Ciguatera> > .org/wiki/Ciguatera > > > > > > > > You need local knowledge since it can vary from reef to reef. > When I > > > > was in Fanning Island, it was all fish over 2 pounds. In Fiji > its > > > > most of the red fish....the red groupers can be deadly. I > would never > > > > eat a barracuda caught near a reef even if the locals say its > OK. > > > > Its not worth the risk. If you have ever met someone who has > had it, > > > > it can really screw you up for the long term. > > > > > > Actually, at this point, good treatment is available. As I > recall from > > > back in 1997 or so, it had been accidentally discovered by two > doctors > > > in the Pacific: they were doing a support regimen for an > islander who > > > was dying of a really bad case of it, and added a left-handed > sugar (I > > > don't recall which one) to his IV. Lo and behold - he was up and > about > > > in an hour or so, with no long-term effects from the poisoning. > As they > > > continued experimenting, they found that in the average case, it > takes > > > 2-3 hours for complete recovery. > > > > > > A friend of mine showed me the article when I was in Boqueron, > Puerto > > > Rico; I asked him to make me a copy, and gave it to the hospital > in St. > > > Thomas when I got there. They were very grateful, since they > hadn't yet > > > heard of it. > > > > > > [a bit of googling later] > > > > > > This isn't the same article that I had, but it contains pretty > much the > > > same info. (I figured that since it had been published in a > medical > > > magazine - either JAMA or NEJM, again, I don't recall - it *had* > to be > > > available on the Web at this late date.) > > > > > > NY Times article: > > > http://tinyurl. com/2tpwhp> com/2tpwhp > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13506|13506|2007-06-02 00:27:47|tomw123456|Ciguatera|Ciguatera Facts & Figures ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Ciguatera toxins CAN be detected. Dr.Yoshitsugi Hokama of the University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine has studied these toxins for the past 21 years. A detection method is detailed in the Journal of AOAC International, Vol. 81, No. 4. Dr. Hokama continues to work with us alongside Dr. Joanne Ebesu, Research Director, on a palytoxin detection method and work on other marine toxins, including pfisteria, scombrotoxin, tetrodotoxin, paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP), and diarrhetic shellfish poisoning (DSP), among others, is currently in the planning stages. The implications of this are quite extensive. For fisheries, this opens up opportunities in several species of fish previously banned from sale (e.g., barracuda in Florida, amberjack (kahala) in Hawaii). What this means is: Tasty fish can now safely and with peace of mind be eaten. In addition, there will not be as quick a public call for government bans on fish entirely (e.g., in restaurants, markets, imports, etc.), as has been proposed in Hong Kong earlier this year when a ciguatera scare broke out from several poisoning cases resulting from imported reef fish served in restaurants. You may wish to visit the Ciguatera Home Page which provides information on ciguatera fish poisoning and toxin detection. If you need additional information (e.g., technical, scientific, medical, development history, cases, etc.), please feel free to contact Dr. Ebesu. Please sent your queries via e-mail oceanit@..., voice (808 531-3017) fax (808 531-3177) or snail mail: Oceanit Test Systems, Inc. 1100 Alakea St., 31st Fl. Honolulu, HI 96813-2833 USA| 13507|13189|2007-06-02 00:28:33|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|The idea that you can predict behavior based on people's race is called racial profiling. Similar misconceptions exist over cultural or social stereotyping. These ideas are based largely on US popular misconceptions about race, due to the widespread influence of US popular culture worldwide. People are individuals. They are not groups. You can predict to some degree the behavior of groups. For example, you could predict with some success that Asians are shorter than Africans, on average. However, this says nothing about the individual. There are many Asians taller than many Africans. The problem starts when we take what we know about groups, and apply it to the individual, thinking we can made predictions. He is "white", therefore he is... He is "aboriginal", therefore he is ... He is "muslim" therefore he is ... There is no such thing as race. People are shaped by their environment, both physically and culturally. As a group this is somewhat predictable, but for any one individual it is not. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 7:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Greg wrote: Travel the world you will come to understand. There is no such thing as race. >ive, > nothing more. Genetically we are all the same. > > Lumping people together based on their ethnic background is racism. > Bigotry, plain and simple. > > Greg > could be I suppose, but sometimes you sure get accurate predictions of behavior by doing it..and if you can overcome the leftist guilt about doing it, you might just keep your head taking precautions based on it. did I tell you about the last seven flights I've taken with my 86 year old grey haired 5'2" mother? She's been pulled over and wanded, searched , EVERY SINGLE TIME..and twice damn near strip searched. Ask Gord, I'm about 6'4, 230 or so, hair to my shoulders, nearly black eyes and only smile on very rare occasions...Since 911, I have NEVER been searched... what's wrong with this picture? Hard to believe my mother poses a greater potential threat than I do..who do we think we're kidding here? It's a damned farce and an inconvenient one at that. right now I think a little racial profiling would be a good thing. This political correctness bit has gotten way out of hand. Course the left is constantly rattling off that the american immigrant muslim community is sooooo much more moderate than the 'foreign kind'..(jeez...make em sound like domesticated ponies). I'm glad someone actually went out and finally took a poll...turns out I think it was 55 percent or more of our muslim homies think that homicide bombing of innocents is justified under some circumstances?..The numbers were similar or even worse in Great Britain if I remember correctly. Now, if you don't believe there's a difference between the muslim east and the caucasian west, its YOU who need to do a little traveling... I've seen american soldiers cut things off of bodies, but they weren't alive at the time. Far different than six guys holding down some poor sob engineer and cutting off his head with a dull knife in the name of God. I just hope the muslim moderates wake up before its too late and realize that its THEY who are the targets, not the caucasian west. Ever witnessed an Indonesian spec ops field interrogation? I have, and comparatively the guy who got his head cut off had BY FAR the easier exit....Now THAT's saying something. To be fair, our native populations here have in the past, like a hundred years ago,,engaged in their own little "rituals" and in my own heritage, the comanche were particularly creative in the tortures they devised for their enemies....ever wonder why the 'fierce Apache' lived in the desert? you think they voted to go out there? But again, this was over a hundred years ago; these 'heroes' in the mid and far east do this stuff on a daily basis, and they do it now, in the 21st century, and they do it for "God"..... People say, "oh but look how they've been wronged.they're no different than anybody else."..OH REALLY....well jeez, where then are the tibetan monk homicide bombers? or the armenian homicide bombers, or the sephardic jew homicide bombers? or the african pigmy homicide bombers? or for that matter, the Lakota homicide bombers? If we could get some of our weenie state department types to actually read the Koran, perhaps they'd wake up too...its all in there folks...a roadmap straight back to the middle ages....convert or die and a whole culture is buying into it... We've done the middle ages already, include me out. Oh, and while I'm on this yet another rant..(damn I'm getting old) you know how the western history books always talk about the great muslim leader Saladin? Honorable Adversary of Richard the Lion Heart and the arab hero who took back Jerusalem? Got news for you. This group of muslims cares jack about Saladin, go look up a guy we don't hardly even talk about in the west, many of you have probably never heard of him and for good reason. He was called Babar. seer Oh, Brent, that line of yours about it being hard to communicate when one is biting one's tongue. That's one of the best one's I've ever heard LOL. I'm going to use that in the future hehehehe. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13508|13504|2007-06-02 09:30:20|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Posting Etiquette|In a message dated 02/06/2007 04:08:35 GMT Daylight Time, _newbarndesign@yahoo_ (mailto:newbarndesign@yahoo) Leaving previous posts is helpful and only takes seconds to scan, if you are that busy have you really got time to read any post? Not sure were you are but in the UK we have a quote "If i have told you once i have told you a million times stop exaggerating" Life is to short let others enjoy the garbage, your term for post not mine. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13509|13504|2007-06-02 10:01:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Posting Etiquette|On Sat, Jun 02, 2007 at 09:11:24AM -0400, BrdbMc@... wrote: > > Leaving previous posts is helpful and only takes seconds to scan, if you are > that busy have you really got time to read any post? Just as a point of email/posting etiquette. it's *always* been considered polite to "snip for content" (i.e., remove any part of the post you're replying to which is not relevant to your point.) From the Netiquette FAQ (RFC1855): `` When replying to a message, include enough original material to be understood but no more. It is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material. '' http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13510|13189|2007-06-02 10:19:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|The aboriginal suicide rate is double the national average. Clearly this points to a problem. The reservation system in many ways treats aboriginals as though they were children. What purpose does life on a reservation provide? Where is the incentive? If everything is done for you, over time this destroys people, similar to our social welfare programs. We now know that social welfare programs are extremely damaging, by studying their effects generation to generation. If you want to help someone, give them a hand-up. If you want to destroy someone, give them a hand-out. As a parent you know this. You need to encourage your child to stand on its own two feet. When it does, the child gains confidence in itself and will seek new challenges. If the parent is too protective, never lets the child stand on its own, the child will grow up to be timid, unable to stand up for itself. The child will lack self-worth, it will lack purpose, because it has not done anything for itself. I'm not suggesting anyone become "white". I didn't choose my skin color. If it is sunny, my skin color changes. If it is rainy, it changes again. I don't control this. It is simply a fact of life. The same is true of our economic system, legal system and popular culture. None of these define who I am. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Greg, u miss the point, most of the natives do not want to be white. don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role models. And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. Injustice was > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking compensation > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal people on > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines racism. No > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic origin - > except aboriginals. > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people themselves not > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > appearance to the others. > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > many decades before... > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > saying something... > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > what I call "considerable human beings." > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > the first place :) > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > longer true, but there was a time... > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > us ALL, forward. > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for everyone. > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > seer > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > grossly expensive equipment. > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > in > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > up > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > to > > > is > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > them > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > and > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > right > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > that > > > > spoil > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > and > > > > sell it to > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > breaking the > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > money > > > > and break > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > They > > > > don't like > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > local > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > have > > > > spoiled > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > or > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > bastards > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > interest > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > or > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > religion > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > that > > > and > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > to > > > a > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > previous > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > if > > > > that's > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > clear > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > majority of us > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > then > > > > you're > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > single > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > fact that > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > withholding > > > > that air > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > old, frail > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > sum > > > > game. > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > for > > > > others > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > want > > > to > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > sticking > > > > with your > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13511|13189|2007-06-02 10:28:48|seeratlas|Re: Ciguatera cure|I don't know Greg, I'm not all that wild about Wikipedia. When u get into the science of the thing, it appears to me that mannitol does have a beneficial effect. e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15950247 I don't see how with the accumulated dated someone could correctly make the blanket statement that mannitol has no beneficial effect. seer --- In origamiboats@| 13512|13504|2007-06-02 10:35:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Posting Etiquette|Yahoo publishes rules as to what is permitted in a posting. As well, there is a reporting mechanism for abuse. If you feel my postings violate the rules I encourage you to report this to Yahoo. Some postings to this site have clearly violated Yahoo's rules. If you choose not to report those postings, you should not be surprised by the results. Greg If replies are added to the front of a posting, with the originals following, there is nothing extra to read. When people insert replies into the middle of previous replies, I rarely read past the first line. Usually when someone does that, they are trying to nit pick. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil S. Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Posting Etiquette Gents, PLEASE, I am begging here, delete the text you are responding to unless it is pertinent to your reply. It really sucks having to scroll through 4 billions lines of garbage to get to the point or the next message. Greg, Brent, grow up, I quit getting messages from the group because of your childish bickering. I enjoy greatly the different points of view about sailing, and steel boat construction but the other BS is getting to be to much. Regards Phil Sacchitella [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13513|13189|2007-06-02 10:44:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ciguatera cure|Wikipedia is not the source. Neurology. 2002 Mar 26;58(6):873-80. Related Neurology Clinic, University Hospital of Geneva, Switzerland. HansSchnorf@ yahoo.com BACKGROUND: Ciguatera poisoning (CP) is worldwide the most common fish-borne illness and one of the most common forms of nonbacterial food poisoning. IV mannitol is considered the treatment of choice for CP but has not been evaluated in a double-blind randomized trial. METHODS: A prospective clinical study of 50 patients with CP on Rarotonga, Cook Islands, was conducted to better define the neurologic picture of CP and to study the effect of mannitol or normal saline under double-blind randomized conditions over a 24-hour period. RESULTS: The neurologic presentation of CP was that of a predominantly sensory, length-dependent polyneuropathy, with preferential small-fiber involvement. Motor paresis, cranial nerve dysfunction, and CNS abnormalities were absent but for a rare mild transitory cerebellar syndrome. At 24 hours, 96% of mannitol-treated patients and 92% of normal saline-treated patients had some improvement of symptoms (p = 1.0), whereas 12% and 24% of patients in each group were asymptomatic (p = 0.46). By 24 hours, the prevalence of the various polyneuropathic symptoms and signs was reduced roughly by half in both groups. Discomfort or pain along the vein used for infusion was more frequent in the mannitol group (84%) than in the normal saline group (36%) (p = 0.0015). CONCLUSION: Mannitol was not superior to normal saline in relieving symptoms and signs of CP at 24 hours in this study population but had more side effects. These results do not support single-dose mannitol as standard treatment for CP. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:25 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure I don't know Greg, I'm not all that wild about Wikipedia. When u get into the science of the thing, it appears to me that mannitol does have a beneficial effect. e.g. http://www.ncbi nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15950247 I don't see how with the accumulated dated someone could correctly make the blanket statement that mannitol has no beneficial effect. seer --- In origamiboats@ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13514|13191|2007-06-02 11:29:11|Jonathan Stevens|Raised Deck|Paul kindly suggested that putting the raised deck on to the already assembled hull gives a chance to change the angle to the hull and set a pleasing sheer so I am going to work that way. Today saw the templates for the hull, transom and raised deck lofted and cut out. Worth doing the lofting as I found a few points that needed moving, to get the lines fair. Using a template will mean that the parts will be as close as possible the same. I've used the paper that photographers use for background, comes on a long roll, nice and wide. All I need now is the steel. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13515|13189|2007-06-02 11:48:18|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The aboriginal suicide rate is double the national average. Clearly this > points to a problem. > Greg, when I was a kid I used to raise and train hawks and I may have been the first falconer/austringer in the US. to successfully train a Great Horned Owl to hunt. (they are notoriously vicious, there is a trick to it:) In the course of all of that I discovered a remarkable thing. That there were many animals that if removed from their natural surroundings and lifestyle, despite the quality of food, habitat etc., they would not 'submit', but rather refuse to eat, and slowly just... die. Greg, you yourself have previously remarked here, on how there are many more ways to live one's life than the consumerist/capitalist model currently dominating the globe. Many of the aboriginal societies and cultures have no desire to participate in this manner of living, where you are bombarded 24/7 by attempts to induce a desire for products, foods, novelities whatever that you don't really need, and if left alone for a bit, would find you don't really want. A visit to a home in japan where a 1000 sq. foot flat has 4 televisions, six radios, 3 computers etc. is instructive in this regard. The problem is that it is very very difficult to opt out of this kind of society. It is so pervasive, and the human desire for greed and power over his fellows is sooooooo strong, it is essentially not allowed. As long as there is a buck, a crown, a shilling, a dollar, a yen, a yuan, etc. to be made...there are those who will pursue and propagate this system, trampling everyone else in the process. It has to do with what we value. To the Lakota, gold was pretty metal..no more. Too soft so of no use in making weapons, or anything else that contributed to the business of living, it was a decorative novelty. But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history including the extermination of entire populations.... Now who's value system is screwed up here? As my father once remarked, "there were damned few black sharecroppers diving out of skyscraper windows in 1929". Why is it so important to the caucasian races to be able to tell everyone else how to live, what to buy, what to value, what to wear, what to drive, how to think, what god to honor, who to praise, who to despise, what to aspire to, who and what to ridicule..? Now, you're not the only one that has done a bit of traveling on this board. I've spent a little time out there myself. I've sipped fermented mares milk (NOT recommended) in a yurt with tribal chieftains in the Altai Mountains, surrounded by yaks; I've attended lethal conferences between Orwell's "rough men" deciding the fates of tens of thousands, on several continents. I've partied with the Masai in mud and dung covered huts, inundated with flies and pests of all manner; I've lived thru a number of attempts by professional combat soldiers to take my life, and instead I took theirs. I've dived out of planes from 14 thousand feet, and I've dived in oceans down to just under 300. I've approached and touched completely wild creatures, with weights from a few grams, to just short of 200 tons...I've fished and hunted, and tracked, and photographed all manner of animals and people. Flown jets and planes, hangliders and egg beaters, ridden horses, mules, donkeys, elephants, bulls, camels and a yak...I've come from nobody and nowhere, to swap toasts with communist officials, terrorist rebels on all continents but Australia, presidents, ambassadors, chiefs of industry, and impoverished homeless. I've traded shots with royals, physically subdued a prince, debated with legal and business legends, and I once spent an entire night, in a palace, alone with a King, sipping some incredible scotch, and discussing the diverse natures of the world and mankind. Oh, and, I once kissed a Lakota princess :) (HIGHLY recommended :) Now, Take a wild ass guess at who was "happiest' with their life....... I'll give you a hint, it was NOT the couple working 2 jobs at something like 50 to 60 hours a week so as to continue to tread water keeping up with the 1.8 kids, dog, mortgage, pta meetings, car payments, insurance, cable bill, phone bill, energy bill, property taxes, income taxes, political solicitations, and innundated with never ending advertising and solicitations infrequently interrupted by programming directed to the mentality of an 8 year old. Nor was it the rich. As I told the King, when discussing the subject of a yet another suicide by a wealthy, supposedly 'had it all' world figure... "Why is it that so many of those who have 'everything', decide in the end that they really have nothing...worth having." The central attraction of this board is I suspect, not the actual construction of a boat, but the construction and indulgence of a dream. :) A dream that for at least a while, we can escape the life that has been built for us, and pursue a more primal course. To experience nature, to revel in the scents on the breeze, to marvel at the beauty providence has provided for the human eyes, the heightening of senses, the challenges, the dangers to overcome, the rewards of self confidence, self respect, and ultimately, an inner sense of contentment with who and what you are. To get 'out there' is to nurture and refresh the soul, clear the mind, and strengthen the body. The natives had all that, they lived it, every day. And then, they lost their freedom, they had nothing, but pandemic disease, servitude, humiliation and the obliteration of their entire way of living. Like other wild animals, some have chosen to end their lives. seer > The reservation system in many ways treats aboriginals as though they were > children. What purpose does life on a reservation provide? Where is the > incentive? If everything is done for you, over time this destroys people, > similar to our social welfare programs. We now know that social welfare > programs are extremely damaging, by studying their effects generation to > generation. If you want to help someone, give them a hand-up. If you want > to destroy someone, give them a hand-out. > > As a parent you know this. You need to encourage your child to stand on its > own two feet. When it does, the child gains confidence in itself and will > seek new challenges. If the parent is too protective, never lets the child > stand on its own, the child will grow up to be timid, unable to stand up for > itself. The child will lack self-worth, it will lack purpose, because it > has not done anything for itself. > > I'm not suggesting anyone become "white". I didn't choose my skin color. > If it is sunny, my skin color changes. If it is rainy, it changes again. I > don't control this. It is simply a fact of life. The same is true of our > economic system, legal system and popular culture. None of these define who > I am. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > > > Greg, > > u miss the point, > most of the natives do not want to be white. > don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, > the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, > or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich > drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role models. > > And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > Injustice was > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > compensation > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > people on > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > racism. No > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > origin - > > except aboriginals. > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and their > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > themselves not > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special treatment". > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > appearance to the others. > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > many decades before... > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > saying something... > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > > the first place :) > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > us ALL, forward. > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > everyone. > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > seer > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the poverty > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category from the > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing with > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he pockets > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making themselves a > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to their > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had happened to > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for what it > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done very > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > in > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is one of > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > up > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > to > > > > is > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > them > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row ashore > > > > and > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > right > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > that > > > > > spoil > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > and > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you are > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > money > > > > > and break > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > They > > > > > don't like > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of the > > > > local > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > > have > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel > > > or > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > bastards > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > > interest > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you need it > > > or > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > religion > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > that > > > > and > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott wrote: > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell fish > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for their > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > > previous > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well be - > > > if > > > > > that's > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a pretty > > > > clear > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your cruising, > > > > then > > > > > you're > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over every > > > > > single > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the slightest. The > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's mouth; > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > withholding > > > > > that air > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that there's an > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a zero- > > > > sum > > > > > game. > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > > for > > > > > others > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > sticking > > > > > with your > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette .NET> > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13516|13189|2007-06-02 11:53:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ciguatera cure|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scombroid Scombroid is a foodborne illness poisoning associated with eating seafood that has been stored improperly. Unlike many types of food poisonings, this form is not produced by an organism or virus. Histidine exists naturally on many types of fish, and at temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit it converts to the biogenic amine histamine (this is one reason why fish should be stored at low temperatures). Histamine is not destroyed by normal cooking temperatures, so even properly cooked fish can be affected. Histamine is a mediator of allergic reactions, so the symptoms produced are those one would expect to see in severe allergic responses. It is the second most common type of seafood poisoning, second only to ciguatera. However it is often missed because it resembles an allergic reaction| 13517|13189|2007-06-02 11:54:10|ANDREW AIREY|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|The problem is that it is far to easy to generalise from individual behaviour.When I was a motorcyclist in the UK in my early twenties we complained about the police picking on us and leaving the businessman in his limo alone.The fact that a proportion of us rode machines which were too fast,noisy,and of dubious legality and therefore likely targets didn't register.The businessman probably had similar feelings about the serious fraud office.Going by my experiences running a section in the Customs and Excise which dealt with imported cars I'd say that there was a strong tendency for Irish,Italians,Pakistanis and Nigerians to be bent revenuewise(Irish - casual. Pakistanis - institutionalised)but we never had any trouble with West Indians,who were mostly returning military.I'm not saying that we British wouldn't have been bent either but we didn't have those particular opportunities cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13518|13189|2007-06-02 11:54:16|seeratlas|Re: Ciguatera cure|Doesn't the pharmacology of the report I cited indicate otherwise? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Wikipedia is not the source. > > Neurology. 2002 Mar 26;58(6):873-80. Related > > Neurology Clinic, University Hospital of Geneva, Switzerland. > HansSchnorf@ yahoo.com > > BACKGROUND: Ciguatera poisoning (CP) is worldwide the most common fish-borne > illness and one of the most common forms of nonbacterial food poisoning. IV > mannitol is considered the treatment of choice for CP but has not been > evaluated in a double-blind randomized trial. METHODS: A prospective > clinical study of 50 patients with CP on Rarotonga, Cook Islands, was > conducted to better define the neurologic picture of CP and to study the > effect of mannitol or normal saline under double-blind randomized conditions > over a 24-hour period. RESULTS: The neurologic presentation of CP was that > of a predominantly sensory, length-dependent polyneuropathy, with > preferential small-fiber involvement. Motor paresis, cranial nerve > dysfunction, and CNS abnormalities were absent but for a rare mild > transitory cerebellar syndrome. At 24 hours, 96% of mannitol-treated > patients and 92% of normal saline-treated patients had some improvement of > symptoms (p = 1.0), whereas 12% and 24% of patients in each group were > asymptomatic (p = 0.46). By 24 hours, the prevalence of the various > polyneuropathic symptoms and signs was reduced roughly by half in both > groups. Discomfort or pain along the vein used for infusion was more > frequent in the mannitol group (84%) than in the normal saline group (36%) > (p = 0.0015). CONCLUSION: Mannitol was not superior to normal saline in > relieving symptoms and signs of CP at 24 hours in this study population but > had more side effects. These results do not support single-dose mannitol as > standard treatment for CP. > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:25 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ciguatera cure > > > > I don't know Greg, I'm not all that wild about Wikipedia. When u get > into the science of the thing, it appears to me that mannitol does > have a beneficial effect. e.g. > > http://www.ncbi > oSearch=15950247> > nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15950247 > > I don't see how with the accumulated dated someone could correctly > make the blanket statement that mannitol has no beneficial effect. > > seer > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13519|13191|2007-06-02 11:56:24|seeratlas|Re: Raised Deck|Someone else suggested that it is very useful to build a mockup, in cardboard or anything else, so that you can get a tangible sense of where everything fits, not just for looks, but for discovering in advance those 'gotchas' that can sometimes crop up when its too late. For example, I knew a guy once who designed his interior without doing so and found it exceedingly difficult for him to sit down on the head as he he didn't have enough room to lean forward to counterbalance during the descent :) LOL. had to pretty much scrape his forehead on the opposite bulkhead all the way down . seer :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Paul kindly suggested that putting the raised deck on to the already > assembled hull gives a chance to change the angle to the hull and set a > pleasing sheer so I am going to work that way. Today saw the templates for > the hull, transom and raised deck lofted and cut out. Worth doing the > lofting as I found a few points that needed moving, to get the lines fair. > Using a template will mean that the parts will be as close as possible the > same. I've used the paper that photographers use for background, comes on a > long roll, nice and wide. All I need now is the steel. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13520|13412|2007-06-02 13:17:08|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Seer, all, I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other boat related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk in terms of absolutes. Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, my assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest that the shell was put together well during construction(well, what else would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the shell has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a field when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which were cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired welder - felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 grand too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value to others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of primer as soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell fairly dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly dedicate themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that Paul has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat and constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment operator/etc., He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. Boy, did I get off topic! Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that given a > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit her > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a lot > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was taken > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In just > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily reinforced > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately the > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue here > as to why. > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > seer > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out there > in the north pacific. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you think > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers on > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my property, > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate > > the > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at > > the > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > > > flooding. > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > bulkheads? > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't > > keep > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > 1100, > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > ahead > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce > > the > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. > > The > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > compartments. > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is > > the > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > floating > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > > > boats have > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The > > > alloy > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > fractures, > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > vicinity > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > sacrifice > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > engines, > > > > bigger > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of > > these > > > > add more > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as > > you > > > > need to > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, > > etc, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > > > problem in > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > would > > > go > > > > a long > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. > > > This > > > > would > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > strength > > > and > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An > > axe > > > > usually > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > > > pour in 5 > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can > > be > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles > > as > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 13521|13412|2007-06-02 13:43:33|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I would have to agree with how much crap there is out there in the oceans. That being said, if you come off a good wave and hit the corner of a container!!!!! Well I don't think it really matters what your boat is made out of, chances are you are going to get a hole, and the last thing on your mind is weather I saved a few extra pounds or it the tensile strength the same, or etc, etc. Of course as usual it will always be in the middle of the night some where around 2 am. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that given a chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit her out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a lot to say about peace of mind while on the sea. For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was taken out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In just seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily reinforced bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately the designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue here as to why. I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) seer as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out there in the north pacific. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you think > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers on > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my property, > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate > the > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at > the > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > > flooding. > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > bulkheads? > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't > keep > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > 1100, > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > ahead > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce > the > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. > The > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > compartments. > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is > the > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > floating > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > > boats have > > > > survived. > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The > > alloy > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > fractures, > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > vicinity > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > sacrifice > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > engines, > > > bigger > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of > these > > > add more > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as > you > > > need to > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, > etc, > > etc. > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > > problem in > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > would > > go > > > a long > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. > > This > > > would > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > strength > > and > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An > axe > > > usually > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > > pour in 5 > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can > be > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles > as > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13522|13189|2007-06-02 15:07:17|Aaron Williams|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Seer Well spoken on all points. This last part is what its all about, The indulgence of Dreams! Aaron seeratlas wrote: Why is it that so many of those who have 'everything', decide in the end that they really have nothing...worth having." The central attraction of this board is I suspect, not the actual construction of a boat, but the construction and indulgence of a dream. :) A dream that for at least a while, we can escape the life that has been built for us, and pursue a more primal course. To experience nature, to revel in the scents on the breeze, to marvel at the beauty providence has provided for the human eyes, the heightening of senses, the challenges, the dangers to overcome, the rewards of self confidence, self respect, and ultimately, an inner sense of contentment with who and what you are. To get 'out there' is to nurture and refresh the soul, clear the mind, and strengthen the body. Recent Activity 6 New Members Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Yacht Caribbean yacht Mega yacht Motor yacht Sailing yacht Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Sexual Health Get important sex health news Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13523|13189|2007-06-02 19:12:36|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I'm constantly astounded that first nations in the US , especially Cherokees, haven't raised a huge protest about the engineer of the trail of tears an early Adolph hitler named Jackson still has his picture on the US $20 bill. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Greg wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > The aboriginal suicide rate is double the national average. Clearly > this > > points to a problem. > > > > Greg, when I was a kid I used to raise and train hawks and I may have > been the first falconer/austringer in the US. to successfully train a > Great Horned Owl to hunt. (they are notoriously vicious, there is a > trick to it:) > > In the course of all of that I discovered a remarkable thing. That > there were many animals that if removed from their natural > surroundings and lifestyle, despite the quality of food, habitat etc., > they would not 'submit', but rather refuse to eat, and slowly just... die. > > > Greg, you yourself have previously remarked here, on how there are > many more ways to live one's life than the consumerist/capitalist > model currently dominating the globe. Many of the aboriginal > societies and cultures have no desire to participate in this manner of > living, where you are bombarded 24/7 by attempts to induce a desire > for products, foods, novelities whatever that you don't really need, > and if left alone for a bit, would find you don't really want. A > visit to a home in japan where a 1000 sq. foot flat has 4 televisions, > six radios, 3 computers etc. is instructive in this regard. The > problem is that it is very very difficult to opt out of this kind of > society. > > It is so pervasive, and the human desire for greed and power over his > fellows is sooooooo strong, it is essentially not allowed. As long as > there is a buck, a crown, a shilling, a dollar, a yen, a yuan, etc. to > be made...there are those who will pursue and propagate this system, > trampling everyone else in the process. It has to do with what we > value. To the Lakota, gold was pretty metal..no more. Too soft so of > no use in making weapons, or anything else that contributed to the > business of living, it was a decorative novelty. > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > Now who's value system is screwed up here? > > As my father once remarked, "there were damned few black sharecroppers > diving out of skyscraper windows in 1929". > > Why is it so important to the caucasian races to be able to tell > everyone else how to live, what to buy, what to value, what to wear, > what to drive, how to think, what god to honor, who to praise, who to > despise, what to aspire to, who and what to ridicule..? > > Now, you're not the only one that has done a bit of traveling on this > board. I've spent a little time out there myself. I've sipped > fermented mares milk (NOT recommended) in a yurt with tribal > chieftains in the Altai Mountains, surrounded by yaks; I've attended > lethal conferences between Orwell's "rough men" deciding the fates of > tens of thousands, on several continents. I've partied with the Masai > in mud and dung covered huts, inundated with flies and pests of all > manner; I've lived thru a number of attempts by professional combat > soldiers to take my life, and instead I took theirs. I've dived out of > planes from 14 thousand feet, and I've dived in oceans down to just > under 300. I've approached and touched completely wild creatures, with > weights from a few grams, to just short of 200 tons...I've fished and > hunted, and tracked, and photographed all manner of animals and > people. Flown jets and planes, hangliders and egg beaters, ridden > horses, mules, donkeys, elephants, bulls, camels and a yak...I've come > from nobody and nowhere, to swap toasts with communist officials, > terrorist rebels on all continents but Australia, presidents, > ambassadors, chiefs of industry, and impoverished homeless. I've > traded shots with royals, physically subdued a prince, debated with > legal and business legends, and I once spent an entire night, in a > palace, alone with a King, sipping some incredible scotch, and > discussing the diverse natures of the world and mankind. > > Oh, and, I once kissed a Lakota princess :) (HIGHLY recommended :) > > Now, Take a wild ass guess at who was "happiest' with their life....... > > I'll give you a hint, it was NOT the couple working 2 jobs at > something like 50 to 60 hours a week so as to continue to tread water > keeping up with the 1.8 kids, dog, mortgage, pta meetings, car > payments, insurance, cable bill, phone bill, energy bill, property > taxes, income taxes, political solicitations, and innundated with > never ending advertising and solicitations infrequently interrupted by > programming directed to the mentality of an 8 year old. > > Nor was it the rich. > > As I told the King, when discussing the subject of a yet another > suicide by a wealthy, supposedly 'had it all' world figure... > > "Why is it that so many of those who have 'everything', decide in the > end that they really have nothing...worth having." > > The central attraction of this board is I suspect, not the actual > construction of a boat, but the construction and indulgence of a > dream. :) A dream that for at least a while, we can escape the life > that has been built for us, and pursue a more primal course. To > experience nature, to revel in the scents on the breeze, to marvel at > the beauty providence has provided for the human eyes, the heightening > of senses, the challenges, the dangers to overcome, the rewards of > self confidence, self respect, and ultimately, an inner sense of > contentment with who and what you are. To get 'out there' is to > nurture and refresh the soul, clear the mind, and strengthen the body. > > The natives had all that, they lived it, every day. And then, they > lost their freedom, they had nothing, but pandemic disease, servitude, > humiliation and the obliteration of their entire way of living. Like > other wild animals, some have chosen to end their lives. > > seer > > > > > > The reservation system in many ways treats aboriginals as though > they were > > children. What purpose does life on a reservation provide? Where > is the > > incentive? If everything is done for you, over time this destroys > people, > > similar to our social welfare programs. We now know that social welfare > > programs are extremely damaging, by studying their effects generation to > > generation. If you want to help someone, give them a hand-up. If > you want > > to destroy someone, give them a hand-out. > > > > As a parent you know this. You need to encourage your child to > stand on its > > own two feet. When it does, the child gains confidence in itself > and will > > seek new challenges. If the parent is too protective, never lets > the child > > stand on its own, the child will grow up to be timid, unable to > stand up for > > itself. The child will lack self-worth, it will lack purpose, > because it > > has not done anything for itself. > > > > I'm not suggesting anyone become "white". I didn't choose my skin > color. > > If it is sunny, my skin color changes. If it is rainy, it changes > again. I > > don't control this. It is simply a fact of life. The same is true > of our > > economic system, legal system and popular culture. None of these > define who > > I am. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:09 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > u miss the point, > > most of the natives do not want to be white. > > don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, > > the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, > > or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich > > drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role > models. > > > > And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > > Injustice was > > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > > compensation > > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > > people on > > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial discrimination. The > > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > > racism. No > > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > > origin - > > > except aboriginals. > > > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and > their > > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > > themselves not > > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special > treatment". > > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > > Fiberglass > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > > appearance to the others. > > > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really are. It > > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and go on > > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid for by > > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to practice > > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could hunt, > > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive in the > > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in prison or > > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming you all > > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious tangential > > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like many, > > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my grandmother who > > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he won for > > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and about > > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got shaken > > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > > literally placed the security of the United States, and therefore, the > > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his funeral > > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > > many decades before... > > > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the Soviet > > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to find > > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > > saying something... > > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was discussing in > > > the first place :) > > > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type suggested that > > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that homologation > > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some sort of > > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all eyes > > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a show of > > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, yes, but > > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For instance, > > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this is no > > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing nature, > > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and sacrifice > > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether living > > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you choose > > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent time in > > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen to, and > > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on their own > > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, and the > > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they were > > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and what > > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that others > > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can consequently and > > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > > us ALL, forward. > > > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who choose > > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But there is > > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self discipline > > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, which if > > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without rules. > > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > > everyone. > > > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into gasoline- > > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and farmers, > > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, not so > > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was 'walk > > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category > from the > > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > > in > > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > > up > > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > > to > > > > > is > > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > > them > > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > > and > > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > > right > > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > poverty > > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category > from the > > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > with > > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > pockets > > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is because > > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > themselves a > > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > their > > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at the age > > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > happened to > > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > what it > > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > very > > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", while > > > > in > > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > one of > > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its constitution is > > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone showing > > > > up > > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do object > > > > to > > > > > is > > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > > them > > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they are on > > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > ashore > > > > > and > > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > > right > > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > > that > > > > > > spoil > > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > > and > > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you > are > > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > > money > > > > > > and break > > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > > They > > > > > > don't like > > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of > the > > > > > local > > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and they > > > > > have > > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, > Steel > > > > or > > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > > bastards > > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and lack of > > > > > > interest > > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you > need it > > > > or > > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > > religion > > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > > that > > > > > and > > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's hard to > > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell > fish > > > > to > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for > their > > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for your > > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman in a > > > > > > previous > > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well > be - > > > > if > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a > pretty > > > > > clear > > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall > are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your > cruising, > > > > > then > > > > > > you're > > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over > every > > > > > > single > > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the > slightest. The > > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's > mouth; > > > > > the > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > > withholding > > > > > > that air > > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that > there's an > > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a > zero- > > > > > sum > > > > > > game. > > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create resources > > > > for > > > > > > others > > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > > want > > > > > to > > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > > sticking > > > > > > with your > > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > .NET> > > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13524|13191|2007-06-02 19:16:01|brentswain38|Re: Raised Deck|The beam of the hull at any point determies the sheer. People who have forced the beam out ended up with an ugly sheer, by putting the low point of the sheer too far foreward, making the sheer look like the result of an accident. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Paul kindly suggested that putting the raised deck on to the already > assembled hull gives a chance to change the angle to the hull and set a > pleasing sheer so I am going to work that way. Today saw the templates for > the hull, transom and raised deck lofted and cut out. Worth doing the > lofting as I found a few points that needed moving, to get the lines fair. > Using a template will mean that the parts will be as close as possible the > same. I've used the paper that photographers use for background, comes on a > long roll, nice and wide. All I need now is the steel. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13525|13412|2007-06-02 19:20:06|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Bullshit. There is very little chance you will punch a hole in 3/16th plate on a boat under 40 feet. One 36 hit the corner of a sunken barge a foot off the centreline foreward ,at hull speed , without making a dent.It would have torn the bottom out of a fibreglass boat and possibly holed an aluminium hull. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > I would have to agree with how much crap there is out there in the oceans. That being said, if you come off a good wave and hit the corner of a container!!!!! Well I don't think it really matters what your boat is made out of, chances are you are going to get a hole, and the last thing on your mind is weather I saved a few extra pounds or it the tensile strength the same, or etc, etc. Of course as usual it will always be in the middle of the night some where around 2 am. > Cameron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that given a > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit her > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a lot > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was taken > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In just > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily reinforced > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately the > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue here > as to why. > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > seer > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out there > in the north pacific. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you think > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers on > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my property, > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in the > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate > > the > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our choice > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at > > the > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > > > flooding. > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > bulkheads? > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of keeping up > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank at > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. Who > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't > > keep > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > 1100, > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps with > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until the > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > ahead > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce > > the > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. > > The > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > compartments. > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is > > the > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > floating > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > > > boats have > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. The > > > alloy > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > fractures, > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > vicinity > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > sacrifice > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > engines, > > > > bigger > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of > > these > > > > add more > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, as > > you > > > > need to > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, > > etc, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > > > problem in > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a way to > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > would > > > go > > > > a long > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals fail. > > > This > > > > would > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > strength > > > and > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An > > axe > > > > usually > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > > > pour in 5 > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that can > > be > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same obstacles > > as > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13526|13189|2007-06-02 19:24:34|brentswain38|invaders|The Scottish Highland clearances are an example of that as are the current Canadian clearances of rural areas by cutting services there. Its ironic that the ancestors of curent Canadian farmers destroyed the native way of life by forcing them off their land . Now corporations are doing the same . What goes around comes around . History repeats itself. Poland has recently banned corporate ownership of farms , wise move. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Oh, and one more thing, having had land taken from ancestors by the > > english is not much of a distinction :) hehehehe I think most everyone > > non-english has sailed in that boat at one time or another :) heheheh. > > > > seer > > Not just the non-English .... > > The various Land Enclosure Acts are often portrayed as being a > mechanism to make agriculture more efficient, whereas they were also a > means by which the English peasantry - who retained a small degree of > economic independence by farming their small strips of land and > grazing on common land - were effectively robbed by the Land-owning > classes. > > Good summary at: > http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9652 > > So - we've all been screwed by the English aristocracy .... > > Colin > | 13527|13412|2007-06-02 19:31:14|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|That's news to me re alex's boat. I've been away awhile dealing with other matters and only recently had a chance to get back to the net etc. too bad it got let go that far. :( seer \-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Seer, all, > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other boat > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk in > terms of absolutes. > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, my > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest that > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what else > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the shell > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a field > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which were > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired welder - > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 grand > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value to > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of primer as > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell fairly > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly dedicate > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that Paul > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat and > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment operator/etc., > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > Boy, did I get off topic! > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that > given a > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit > her > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a > lot > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was > taken > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In > just > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > reinforced > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately > the > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue > here > > as to why. > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > seer > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out > there > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > designed > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you > think > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. > As > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., > the > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers > on > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > property, > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - > or > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > living, > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > fibreglass, > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > > Mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. > Foam > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in > the > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > negate > > > the > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our > choice > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken > at > > > the > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of > fatal > > > > flooding. > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > bulkheads? > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > keeping up > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank > at > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. > Who > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > couldn't > > > keep > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > > 1100, > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only > in > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps > with > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until > the > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash > but > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > > ahead > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > reduce > > > the > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all > be > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and > aft. > > > The > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway > the > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > compartments. > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me > is > > > the > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > floating > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where > alloy > > > > boats have > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. > The > > > > alloy > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > > fractures, > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of > the > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > > vicinity > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > > engines, > > > > > bigger > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All > of > > > these > > > > > add more > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, > as > > > you > > > > > need to > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more > cost, > > > etc, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues > are a > > > > > problem in > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a > way to > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > > would > > > > go > > > > > a long > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals > fail. > > > > This > > > > > would > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > > strength > > > > and > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that > one > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. > An > > > axe > > > > > usually > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some > ports, > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that > can > > > be > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > obstacles > > > as > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13528|13412|2007-06-02 19:39:57|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Bullshit!!! The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away from any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. Blasting her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that stage and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, price of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks worth , or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's incredible how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's why used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their lots.It works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for people who have the forsight to se what has been done. I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make thousands just cleaning it.. A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off any gear they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other valuable elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff they don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months later , after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look generous. It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's boat is for sale for 15 grand. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Seer, all, > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other boat > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk in > terms of absolutes. > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, my > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest that > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what else > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the shell > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a field > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which were > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired welder - > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 grand > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value to > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of primer as > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell fairly > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly dedicate > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that Paul > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat and > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment operator/etc., > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > Boy, did I get off topic! > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that > given a > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit > her > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a > lot > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was > taken > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In > just > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > reinforced > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately > the > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue > here > > as to why. > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > seer > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out > there > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > designed > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you > think > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. > As > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., > the > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers > on > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > property, > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - > or > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > living, > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > fibreglass, > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > > Mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. > Foam > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in > the > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > negate > > > the > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our > choice > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken > at > > > the > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of > fatal > > > > flooding. > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > bulkheads? > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > keeping up > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank > at > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. > Who > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > couldn't > > > keep > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > > 1100, > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only > in > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps > with > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until > the > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash > but > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > > ahead > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > reduce > > > the > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all > be > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and > aft. > > > The > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway > the > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > compartments. > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me > is > > > the > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > floating > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where > alloy > > > > boats have > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. > The > > > > alloy > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > > fractures, > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of > the > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > > vicinity > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > > engines, > > > > > bigger > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All > of > > > these > > > > > add more > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, > as > > > you > > > > > need to > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more > cost, > > > etc, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues > are a > > > > > problem in > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a > way to > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > > would > > > > go > > > > > a long > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals > fail. > > > > This > > > > > would > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > > strength > > > > and > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that > one > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. > An > > > axe > > > > > usually > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some > ports, > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that > can > > > be > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > obstacles > > > as > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13529|13189|2007-06-02 19:57:39|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|In their day the Cherokee ruled an empire, but by the time of Jackson, my father's fathers were a beaten people. Having once been the conqueror, perhaps it was easier to accept being conquered. Jackson did not lightly make the decision he did. Having known much about the way the tribes had occasionally switched sides in time of war, he was fearful of having a separate nation within his borders, while the United States was still leading a rather tenuous existence. That he scapegoated the Cherokee though, does smack to some degree of that later well known tyrant. A complex man, Jackson was a product of his place and time..I suspect that if he had never been born, another would have come to do the same thing. In any event the word went out, "cut your hair and join the whites" :) (that last was from the last great Commanche war chief Quanah Parker when he saw that he could fight no more. Good advice perhaps, but advice that he himself chose not to take. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm constantly astounded that first nations in the US , especially > Cherokees, haven't raised a huge protest about the engineer of the > trail of tears an early Adolph hitler named Jackson still has his > picture on the US $20 bill. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Greg wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > The aboriginal suicide rate is double the national average. Clearly > > this > > > points to a problem. > > > > > > > Greg, when I was a kid I used to raise and train hawks and I may have > > been the first falconer/austringer in the US. to successfully train a > > Great Horned Owl to hunt. (they are notoriously vicious, there is a > > trick to it:) > > > > In the course of all of that I discovered a remarkable thing. That > > there were many animals that if removed from their natural > > surroundings and lifestyle, despite the quality of food, habitat etc., > > they would not 'submit', but rather refuse to eat, and slowly > just... die. > > > > > > Greg, you yourself have previously remarked here, on how there are > > many more ways to live one's life than the consumerist/capitalist > > model currently dominating the globe. Many of the aboriginal > > societies and cultures have no desire to participate in this manner of > > living, where you are bombarded 24/7 by attempts to induce a desire > > for products, foods, novelities whatever that you don't really need, > > and if left alone for a bit, would find you don't really want. A > > visit to a home in japan where a 1000 sq. foot flat has 4 televisions, > > six radios, 3 computers etc. is instructive in this regard. The > > problem is that it is very very difficult to opt out of this kind of > > society. > > > > It is so pervasive, and the human desire for greed and power over his > > fellows is sooooooo strong, it is essentially not allowed. As long as > > there is a buck, a crown, a shilling, a dollar, a yen, a yuan, etc. to > > be made...there are those who will pursue and propagate this system, > > trampling everyone else in the process. It has to do with what we > > value. To the Lakota, gold was pretty metal..no more. Too soft so of > > no use in making weapons, or anything else that contributed to the > > business of living, it was a decorative novelty. > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > > > Now who's value system is screwed up here? > > > > As my father once remarked, "there were damned few black sharecroppers > > diving out of skyscraper windows in 1929". > > > > Why is it so important to the caucasian races to be able to tell > > everyone else how to live, what to buy, what to value, what to wear, > > what to drive, how to think, what god to honor, who to praise, who to > > despise, what to aspire to, who and what to ridicule..? > > > > Now, you're not the only one that has done a bit of traveling on this > > board. I've spent a little time out there myself. I've sipped > > fermented mares milk (NOT recommended) in a yurt with tribal > > chieftains in the Altai Mountains, surrounded by yaks; I've attended > > lethal conferences between Orwell's "rough men" deciding the fates of > > tens of thousands, on several continents. I've partied with the Masai > > in mud and dung covered huts, inundated with flies and pests of all > > manner; I've lived thru a number of attempts by professional combat > > soldiers to take my life, and instead I took theirs. I've dived out of > > planes from 14 thousand feet, and I've dived in oceans down to just > > under 300. I've approached and touched completely wild creatures, with > > weights from a few grams, to just short of 200 tons...I've fished and > > hunted, and tracked, and photographed all manner of animals and > > people. Flown jets and planes, hangliders and egg beaters, ridden > > horses, mules, donkeys, elephants, bulls, camels and a yak...I've come > > from nobody and nowhere, to swap toasts with communist officials, > > terrorist rebels on all continents but Australia, presidents, > > ambassadors, chiefs of industry, and impoverished homeless. I've > > traded shots with royals, physically subdued a prince, debated with > > legal and business legends, and I once spent an entire night, in a > > palace, alone with a King, sipping some incredible scotch, and > > discussing the diverse natures of the world and mankind. > > > > Oh, and, I once kissed a Lakota princess :) (HIGHLY recommended :) > > > > Now, Take a wild ass guess at who was "happiest' with their life....... > > > > I'll give you a hint, it was NOT the couple working 2 jobs at > > something like 50 to 60 hours a week so as to continue to tread water > > keeping up with the 1.8 kids, dog, mortgage, pta meetings, car > > payments, insurance, cable bill, phone bill, energy bill, property > > taxes, income taxes, political solicitations, and innundated with > > never ending advertising and solicitations infrequently interrupted by > > programming directed to the mentality of an 8 year old. > > > > Nor was it the rich. > > > > As I told the King, when discussing the subject of a yet another > > suicide by a wealthy, supposedly 'had it all' world figure... > > > > "Why is it that so many of those who have 'everything', decide in the > > end that they really have nothing...worth having." > > > > The central attraction of this board is I suspect, not the actual > > construction of a boat, but the construction and indulgence of a > > dream. :) A dream that for at least a while, we can escape the life > > that has been built for us, and pursue a more primal course. To > > experience nature, to revel in the scents on the breeze, to marvel at > > the beauty providence has provided for the human eyes, the heightening > > of senses, the challenges, the dangers to overcome, the rewards of > > self confidence, self respect, and ultimately, an inner sense of > > contentment with who and what you are. To get 'out there' is to > > nurture and refresh the soul, clear the mind, and strengthen the body. > > > > The natives had all that, they lived it, every day. And then, they > > lost their freedom, they had nothing, but pandemic disease, servitude, > > humiliation and the obliteration of their entire way of living. Like > > other wild animals, some have chosen to end their lives. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > The reservation system in many ways treats aboriginals as though > > they were > > > children. What purpose does life on a reservation provide? Where > > is the > > > incentive? If everything is done for you, over time this destroys > > people, > > > similar to our social welfare programs. We now know that social > welfare > > > programs are extremely damaging, by studying their effects > generation to > > > generation. If you want to help someone, give them a hand-up. If > > you want > > > to destroy someone, give them a hand-out. > > > > > > As a parent you know this. You need to encourage your child to > > stand on its > > > own two feet. When it does, the child gains confidence in itself > > and will > > > seek new challenges. If the parent is too protective, never lets > > the child > > > stand on its own, the child will grow up to be timid, unable to > > stand up for > > > itself. The child will lack self-worth, it will lack purpose, > > because it > > > has not done anything for itself. > > > > > > I'm not suggesting anyone become "white". I didn't choose my skin > > color. > > > If it is sunny, my skin color changes. If it is rainy, it changes > > again. I > > > don't control this. It is simply a fact of life. The same is true > > of our > > > economic system, legal system and popular culture. None of these > > define who > > > I am. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:09 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > > Fiberglass > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > u miss the point, > > > most of the natives do not want to be white. > > > don't want the dog eat dog ethics system, > > > the treadmill auto-pilot consumerist economy, > > > or the glorify the pimp/ho/rap bad boy spoiled sports figures and rich > > > drugged out pop tart crazies. Not the native idea of suitable role > > models. > > > > > > And, we REALLY like our Casinos :) LOL. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > My ancestors had their land taken from them - by the English. > > > Injustice was > > > > done for generations. I choose not to live in the past seeking > > > compensation > > > > - because in doing so you become a victim. You have an excuse for > > > > everything that goes wrong. That simply makes things worse. > > > > > > > > The reservation system, along with laws that single out aboriginal > > > people on > > > > the basis of ethnic origin are all forms of racial > discrimination. The > > > > Canadian constitution is a race based document. It enshrines > > > racism. No > > > > one in Canada can be treated any differently on the basis of ethic > > > origin - > > > > except aboriginals. > > > > > > > > Just about the most harmful thing anyone can do for themselves and > > their > > > > children is to see themselves as a victim. The reservation system is > > > > harmful - this is plain to see. Why do the aboriginal people > > > themselves not > > > > stand up and demand an end to it? Demand an end to "special > > treatment". > > > > Demand equal treatment as full citizens. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:19 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > > > Fiberglass > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with Brent on this, and the truth of what he says is > > > > easy for me to know, but exceedingly difficult for me to explain. It > > > > reminds me of the old story of the blind wise men-each touching a > > > > different part of an elephant while trying to convey its overall > > > > appearance to the others. > > > > > > > > You have to go spend some time on the various reservations, whether > > > > Canadian or US, to see just how different things there really > are. It > > > > is not easy living, economically or psychologically. Violence, > > > > alcoholism, drug abuse etc. is rampant. Children's dreams get > > > > shattered at a very early age. It takes a strong minded man or woman > > > > to overcome the pervasive disenchantment, depression, and just plain > > > > lack of hope for any kind of a rewarding future; and despite this, > > > > through sheer force of will and self discipline, break free and > go on > > > > to become something 'more' both for himself, and for his family. > > > > > > > > I know this, because such a man was my father, and as a direct and > > > > proximate result of his lifelong efforts, and what he taught me, > > > > whether intentionally or not :) I became one of the first 'native' > > > > americans to get into (incredibly hard) and out of (even harder lol) > > > > the Harvard Law School, (don't get the wrong idea, it was paid > for by > > > > a military scholarship) and I was, I believe, at the time I was > > > > admitted, the only member of the Cherokee Nation admitted to > practice > > > > before the Supreme Court of the United States. You can only imagine > > > > the curiosity I was to, and how I was treated by, the New England > > > > 'Blue Bloods' and their jewish counterparts- none of which could > hunt, > > > > fish or drink for chit I might add. :) (Side note: I seem to have > > > > missed out on the 'inability to drink ' gene that is pervasive > in the > > > > native bloodlines. Both my father and my mother couldn't drink a sip > > > > without going over the top, and I have a family tree just chock full > > > > of renegade alcoholic criminals most of whom died either in > prison or > > > > some kind of gun or knife fight, whereas I, on the other hand, > > > > repeatedly was required to imbibe to excess in the service of my > > > > country, yet I came out essentially allright, that is assuming > you all > > > > think I'm in fact "all right" LOL.) > > > > > > > > Now, I hope you'll all forgive me for this long and tedious > tangential > > > > digression, but dad deserves that some of his story be told and if > > > > unrestrained by ANY sense of propriety, I could go on for days about > > > > him, but all you really need to know is that his father was like > many, > > > > a broken man, no hope, no chance, no future. It was my > grandmother who > > > > held the family together, and in my father's youth, he used to hunt > > > > not for sport, but for food, and was one of only three men I've ever > > > > seen who could routinely go out with his shotgun and 12 shells, and > > > > come back with 15 to 18 or so birds. :) > > > > > > > > Not a handsome man, his face was rugged, nose broken many times from > > > > fist fights, so many of them racial..and most all of which he > won for > > > > he was a giant of a man for his time, just a hair under 6'6, and > about > > > > 255 lbs when he was made captain of the Oklahoma Football > > > > Team:)(worked his way thru school on scholarships and hustling pool > > > > and golf :) Humble beginnings, but he taught John Weismuller how to > > > > play golf when dad was the Club Champion of the Los Angeles Country > > > > Club..(that's a 'biggie' for you non-duffers). He ran with the wild > > > > crowd, the Hollywood crowd, dated more than one of the big hollywood > > > > actresses, (he had some great stories he always kept from my mother > > > > lol) and sometimes the shadier side of the Hollywood crowd, got > shaken > > > > up when he fell into a confrontation with what was then generally > > > > called "The Mob". It changed his life, (and later mine) he went back > > > > to school, taught some classes while taking others, got married, had > > > > me :) and went into aerospace and scientific instruments engineering > > > > field. Worked with and for the military aerospace industry with no > > > > small success and Then came the time when the "powers that be" > > > > literally placed the security of the United States, and > therefore, the > > > > free world, into his hands during a critical interval during the > > > > height of the Cold War. He rose to that challenge and succeeded, > > > > though the attendant deaths of many friends and colleagues who were > > > > desperately trying to help him, weighed heavily on his heart for the > > > > rest of life. He went on to become a respected corporate manager, > > > > and when he spoke, Wall Street listened, and when he died, his > funeral > > > > was attended by a 'who's who' of the american military/industrial > > > > community,,, but not his only brother, who had lapsed into insanity > > > > many decades before... > > > > > > > > My father is long since dead now, but he was, even with all his > > > > faults, his prejudices, and lack of social graces, and any sense of > > > > international diplomacy..(in his later years I took him to the > Soviet > > > > Union with me, and somewhere in the Ukraine I think it was, I was > > > > interrupted in a meeting with some local politico's by my attache > > > > advising that there was a 'situation' happening outside I'd better > > > > come deal with LOL. We all got up from the table and went outside > > > > into the reception area of the building where we were meeting to > find > > > > my father towering over two KGB officers (despite the propaganda to > > > > the contrary, most russians are 'leetle bitty peeps" heheh) > > > > essentially threatening the two of them with serious bodily harm if > > > > they didn't back off harassing one of the jewish physicians in our > > > > party who had unwittingly (or so he said) made some kind of a black > > > > market purchase :) a lot funnier story now than it was at the time. > > > > > > > > In short he was perhaps the most "man" I ever knew. .and THAT is > > > > saying something... > > > > for in my own time, I've come to know and work with, quite a few of > > > > what I call "considerable human beings." > > > > > > > > You may not believe it, but I'm now not only going to tie all this > > > > together, but show its relevance to the topic Brent was > discussing in > > > > the first place :) > > > > > > > > Once during a 'high class' party I attended in Boston, an inebriated > > > > and particularly obnoxious 'old money' inheritance type > suggested that > > > > the Nations should be absorbed into the american populace as theirs > > > > was a 'defeated culture' and "not worth perserving, that > homologation > > > > was the only solution." I reflected on this while watching > > > > him,completely self absorbed, literally reach across his date as if > > > > she wasn't there, for yet another glass of champagne and some > sort of > > > > appetizer being brought round by the attending servers. With all > eyes > > > > of the assembled group there on me awaiting my response, I fell back > > > > on something my father once told me to never forget. Making a > show of > > > > taking my own proffered glass and appetizer, then pointedly turning > > > > and offering them to HIS date, I remarked that ..." defeated, > yes, but > > > > I submit that parts of our culture are worth preserving. For > instance, > > > > amongst my people, the 'chief's' ate not first...but last." > > > > It was a 'kodak moment' :) > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I have to admit that in far too many tribes, this > is no > > > > longer true, but there was a time... > > > > > > > > Still, I remain of the opinion that the native way of viewing > nature, > > > > of our place in it, of our respect for it, of our respect for life, > > > > even when we take it; of our valuing of honor, courage, and > sacrifice > > > > in the name of the greater good, and the overall perception of being > > > > an integral 'part' of this earth and all things in it, whether > living > > > > or not, is something worth preserving. But this understanding, > > > > cultural belief, meta-physical frame of reference, whatever you > choose > > > > to call it, is by no means exclusive to the nations. > > > > > > > > Over the years I have traveled most of the world. I have spent > time in > > > > a great number of countries, and had occasion to watch, listen > to, and > > > > on occasion converse with great men, and women, who spoke on > their own > > > > people's behalf. I have come to believe that in so many many ways, > > > > including the most important ones, being 'native' is far more a > > > > matter of what lies within one's heart, than within one's blood. > > > > > > > > Life's challenge to humanity is not to make things easier for a few, > > > > but to rather make them better for all. And, no nation, no race, no > > > > lineage, no culture, can lay exclusive claim to that purpose, or its > > > > likelihood of achievement. Like it or not, we are all "in this" > > > > together, and we all have something to contribute, but what holds us > > > > back time and time again is our fundamental nature as humans, > and the > > > > 'easy' attractions of the worst part of that nature. If we are to > > > > continue to move forward, we must quit trying to conquer each other, > > > > and instead strive to conquer ourselves. Only when the vast majority > > > > of peoples on the earth can step back and comprehend that their > > > > fundamental opinions and beliefs derive from where and when they > were > > > > born, and into what circumstances, and how they were raised, and > what > > > > history they were taught, AND more importantly, understand that > others > > > > of different backgrounds, cultures, and histories can > consequently and > > > > validly hold different opinions and beliefs- only then, can people > > > > rationally converse in a manner that poses any possibility of moving > > > > us ALL, forward. > > > > > > > > In the end, homologation gains us nothing. It will be the > > > > assimilation of the 'best' of all of us that offers the only hope of > > > > us becoming something 'more' than the somewhat intelligent 'animals' > > > > we have always been. There is value in understanding those who > choose > > > > to commune with nature, and honor its diversity of life. But > there is > > > > also value in understanding those who thru individual self > discipline > > > > and hard work, choose to pursue economic advancement. It cannot be > > > > denied that the latter are the 'engine' which drives economies, for > > > > they cause the transformation of 'things' into other things, > which if > > > > found valuable by a society, are rewarded, sometimes very richly so. > > > > This is not to say they should be permitted to operate without > rules. > > > > The world is rife with examples of un-restrained 'capitalism' if you > > > > will. In Chicago unrestrained entrepreneurial capitalism could be > > > > called "Capone'ism" :) Not a very desirable result me thinks. So > > > > 'rules' must be set in place to contrain what I call, the 'lowest > > > > common denominator syndrome', ie. it always seems that there is > > > > someone who is willing to take the level of play 'lower' in order to > > > > win, eventually perverting its purpose and ruining the game for > > > everyone. > > > > > > > > If our society has placed a hugely rewarding value on men who play > > > > professional sports, entertainment figures, or people who manage the > > > > process of finding, drilling for, and transforming oil into > gasoline- > > > > all as opposed to college professors, bricklayers, miners and > farmers, > > > > and out of work daytime soap opera watchers, etc., ..then the fault > > > > lies not with the athletes, the hollywood actors and actresses, > > > > executives etc., its with the society that rewards them by attending > > > > or tuning in their games, or watching their movies etc., or buying > > > > their products while ignoring the opportunities to improve education > > > > etc. It is a re-examination of values that is called for here, > not so > > > > much the values of the individual complained of, but that of the > > > > society that rewards him/her. To understand the values of a society, > > > > it is necessary to understand the values of its members and for that > > > > we natives had some pretty good advice. :) > > > > > > > > Remember, before there was 'walk a mile in his shoes', there was > 'walk > > > > two moons in his moccasins' :) It is curious that the plains indian > > > > 'walk two moons' (I believe cheyenne) assumes understanding requires > > > > time in another's circumstances, where the anglicized version > > > > presumes a much quicker grasp of the situation :) This caucasian > > > > preoccupation with doing things asap again LOL>:) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > ntswain38" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > > poverty > > > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category > > from the > > > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > > with > > > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > > pockets > > > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > > themselves a > > > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > > their > > > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at > the age > > > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > > happened to > > > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > > what it > > > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > > very > > > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > > > in > > > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > > one of > > > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its > constitution is > > > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > > > up > > > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > > > to > > > > > > is > > > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > > > them > > > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they > are on > > > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > > ashore > > > > > > and > > > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > > > right > > > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don' t believe any Canadian who's anual income is below the > > poverty > > > > > level should be deemed to be a Sport Fisherman" or "Sport hunter" > > > > > and be required to beg permission from bureaucrats to go out and > > > > > feed themselves . They are definitly in a different category > > from the > > > > > guys with high paying job in expensive 4X4s hunting and fishing > > with > > > > > grossly expensive equipment. > > > > > $400,000 dollars a year weas spent on arresting , jailing and > > > > > aprehending the children of aboriginals for failing to provide > > > > > adequate housing for them, most of that money going intot he > > pockets > > > > > of bureaucrats on personal empire building efforts. What kind of > > > > > housing could you buy outright for that kind of money? > > > > > The main reason aboriginal comumnities have not thrived is > because > > > > > they have to ask permision from bureucrats before making > > themselves a > > > > > livlihood in business. The bureaucrats see that as a threat to > > their > > > > > empire and invariably refuse the permission. > > > > > Anyone who was taken from their families and communities at > the age > > > > > of six, due soly to their race , and sexually and mentally abused > > > > > thruout their childhood , does not have equal opportunity, for > > > > > generations ,regardless of laws passed. Greg ,if that had > > happened to > > > > > you, what would you consider adequate compensation? > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In South Africa the "reservation" system was recognized for > > what it > > > > > > was. Divide and conquer. > > > > > > > > > > > > In Canada we still maintain Apartheid, under the disguise > > > > > > of "protecting" aboriginals. As a result, they have the highest > > > > > > rates of poverty and early death of any group in the country. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason is simple. Policians, lawyers and chiefs have done > > very > > > > > > well from the system. As a result, it is sold as a "right", > while > > > > > in > > > > > > fact it is a curse. > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea that we have different classes of citizens, with > > > > > > different "rights", based on when your ancestors arrived, is > > one of > > > > > > the most ignorant and harmful ideas ever developed. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that Canada has enshrined racism in its > constitution is > > > > > > nothing to be proud of. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lasquetti Islanders have told me "We don't mind someone > showing > > > > > up > > > > > > > here and catching a few fish or prawns to eat.What we do > object > > > > > to > > > > > > is > > > > > > > a comercial boat showing up to catch all they can and selling > > > > > them > > > > > > > to buy VCRs, Cars , etc. > > > > > > > The more one lives off the land the less dependent they > are on > > > > > > > infrastructure. What infrastructure is involved when I row > > ashore > > > > > > and > > > > > > > pick the makins of a cup of tea? > > > > > > > In international waters, anyone has the legal right to catch > > > > > > > whatever fish they need.We aboriginals have the consitutional > > > > > right > > > > > > > to catch what we need. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Parasites, used car salesman? More name calling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most cruisers are not parasites. There are a few bad apples > > > > > that > > > > > > > spoil > > > > > > > > things for everyone else. Canada or the USA, you catch fish > > > > > and > > > > > > > sell it to > > > > > > > > a restaurant, you need a commercial license. Otherwise you > > are > > > > > > > breaking the > > > > > > > > law. No different in foreign countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't think much of foreigners that show up here with no > > > > > money > > > > > > > and break > > > > > > > > our laws. Things aren't any different in other countries. > > > > > They > > > > > > > don't like > > > > > > > > foreigners that show up with no money and try and leech of > > the > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > economy. Most cruisers are not like that. A few are and > they > > > > > > have > > > > > > > spoiled > > > > > > > > lots of places for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM > > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, > > Steel > > > > > or > > > > > > > Fiberglass > > > > > > > > Boats Pricing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like the lawyer who considers all single men , selfish > > > > > > bastards > > > > > > > > who screwed some woman out of her divorce settlement. > > > > > > > > Used car salesmen types consider lack of greed , and > lack of > > > > > > > interest > > > > > > > > in grabbing all you can get your hands on ,whether you > > need it > > > > > or > > > > > > > > not,a mortal sin, and an act of heresy against the dominant > > > > > > religion > > > > > > > > of our time, consumerism.. > > > > > > > > Some say stick to the topic. The other metal boat site does > > > > > that > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > they have about 5 hits a month. We have how many? It's > hard to > > > > > > > > communicate with anyone while biting your tongue. > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 05:18:01PM -0000, greg elliott > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Fruit ashore almost always "belongs" to someone. Sell > > fish > > > > > to > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > restaurant you are competing with local fishermen for > > their > > > > > > > > > > livelyhood. Both cases someone ashore is paying for > your > > > > > > > cruising. > > > > > > > > > > Do it often enough and you will wear out your welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice smoke-screen there, Greg. Were you a car salesman > in a > > > > > > > previous > > > > > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying that cruisers are parasites. You may well > > be - > > > > > if > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > > what you believe, and you're a cruiser, then that's a > > pretty > > > > > > clear > > > > > > > > > statement about what you believe yourself to be - but the > > > > > > > majority of us > > > > > > > > > are not, just as the majority of human beings overall > > are not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If competing means that someone is paying for your > > cruising, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > you're > > > > > > > > > not only ripping off Brent Swain, you're screwing over > > every > > > > > > > single > > > > > > > > > person whose profession resembles yours in the > > slightest. The > > > > > > > fact that > > > > > > > > > you eat food at all is taking it out of someone else's > > mouth; > > > > > > the > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > > that you're breathing air offends me because you're > > > > > withholding > > > > > > > that air > > > > > > > > > from someone who needs it - in fact, I'm sure that > > there's an > > > > > > > old, frail > > > > > > > > > person somewhere dying for lack of it, which makes you a > > > > > > murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe - just *maybe* - life in human society is not a > > zero- > > > > > > sum > > > > > > > game. > > > > > > > > > Maybe, by working, we all *contribute* and create > resources > > > > > for > > > > > > > others > > > > > > > > > to use. If you want to have anyone respect you, you might > > > > > want > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > consider joining the rest of us doing that instead of > > > > > sticking > > > > > > > with your > > > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > > > > > > http://LinuxGazette > > .NET> > > > > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 13530|13412|2007-06-02 22:42:47|David A. Frantz|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|While I won't disagree with Steels strength, especially for boat building, I have to comment on punching holes in it. It really comes down to the shape, speed and hardness of the objects that collide. locally a couple of years back we had an unfortunate accident where a delivery drivers truck had its crane come loose and collide with a long span welded I-Beam holding up an over pass. That crane went right thru the thickest part of that beam. When I say thru I mean punched right thru it with very little bending of the beam as a whole. Of course that was at highway speed, but I've seen metal punched and cut open with hand tools. What it comes down to is luck of the draw. That is not to discount steels ability to handle impacts better than just about anything out there, just that nothing is impossible. Dave brentswain38 wrote: > > Bullshit. There is very little chance you will punch a hole in 3/16th > plate on a boat under 40 feet. One 36 hit the corner of a sunken > barge a foot off the centreline foreward ,at hull speed , without > making a dent.It would have torn the bottom out of a fibreglass boat > and possibly holed an aluminium hull. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" > wrote: > > > > I would have to agree with how much crap there is out there in the > oceans. That being said, if you come off a good wave and hit the > corner of a container!!!!! Well I don't think it really matters what > your boat is made out of, chances are you are going to get a hole, and > the last thing on your mind is weather I saved a few extra pounds or > it the tensile strength the same, or etc, etc. Of course as usual it > will always be in the middle of the night some where around 2 am. > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:51 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that given a > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit her > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a lot > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was taken > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In just > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily reinforced > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately the > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue here > > as to why. > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > seer > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out there > > in the north pacific. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly designed > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you > think > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. As > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., the > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > containers on > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > property, > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - or > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my living, > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that fibreglass, > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > > Mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. Foam > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept > in the > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could negate > > > the > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our > choice > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken at > > > the > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of fatal > > > > flooding. > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > bulkheads? > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > keeping up > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats > sank at > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. > Who > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed couldn't > > > keep > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > > 1100, > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only in > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps > with > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until > the > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash but > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > > ahead > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will reduce > > > the > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all be > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and aft. > > > The > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway the > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > compartments. > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me is > > > the > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > floating > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where alloy > > > > boats have > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. > The > > > > alloy > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > > fractures, > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of the > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > > vicinity > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > > engines, > > > > > bigger > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All of > > > these > > > > > add more > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > problem, as > > > you > > > > > need to > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more cost, > > > etc, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues are a > > > > > problem in > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a > way to > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > > would > > > > go > > > > > a long > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals > fail. > > > > This > > > > > would > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > > strength > > > > and > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that one > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. An > > > axe > > > > > usually > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some ports, > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that > can > > > be > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > obstacles > > > as > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 13531|13384|2007-06-03 06:43:51|sae140|Re: Backstay antennas|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I'd be very interested in the latest thinking on lightning protection, > > > and the preservation of electronics gear in the face of a strike on > > > or near a metal boat. Especially since my boat is to be diesel > > > electric LOL. :) > > > > > > Seems to me several of our members had some expertise in this area Seer - you might want to check out this SSCA thread: http://64.70.221.24/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=209 Colin| 13532|13189|2007-06-03 08:23:35|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Ciguatera cure|Aren't we off the original track talking about the effectivenes of mannitol for ciguatera? As I recall, the original poster referred to the effectiveness (in a single case) of "left-handed sugar" given IV, e.g. levulose, as opposed to dextrose which is the basis, along with saline, for most IV solutions. Mannitol is a "sugar alcohol" not a sugar, and in any case the article about its successful use http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15950247 refeers to the D isomer (right-handed form). --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13533|13412|2007-06-03 10:44:57|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it is reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker for $15,000. O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, or many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the hull plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a mostly "tacked" condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of the skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast in the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of Jim, the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I think that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, but he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these days. Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to realize the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a part owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be too big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you would probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of the old relics I harbour. Not this one. I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about a dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. Buying a boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, just not that much. For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray each cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each day's accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than is necessary? Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Bullshit!!! > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away from > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. Blasting > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that stage > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, price > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks worth , > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's incredible > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's why > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their lots.It > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for people who > have the forsight to se what has been done. > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > thousands just cleaning it.. > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off any gear > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other valuable > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff they > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months later , > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look generous. > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's boat is > for sale for 15 grand. > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Seer, all, > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other boat > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk in > > terms of absolutes. > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, my > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest that > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what else > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the shell > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a field > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which were > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired welder - > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 grand > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value to > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of primer as > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell fairly > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly dedicate > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that Paul > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat and > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment operator/etc., > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that > > given a > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty decent > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. Fit > > her > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's a > > lot > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 was > > taken > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. His > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put him > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. In > > just > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > reinforced > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. Fortunately > > the > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm believer in > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No issue > > here > > > as to why. > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a small > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very very > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > seer > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around out > > there > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > > designed > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes you > > think > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the containers, > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of ocean. > > As > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of B.C., > > the > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered containers > > on > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot of > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you hit > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty of > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying to > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > > property, > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am considering > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' Oday) - > > or > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have certain > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > > living, > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for it's > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > fibreglass, > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work with. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs water. > > Foam > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel kept in > > the > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > > negate > > > > the > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in our > > choice > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be taken > > at > > > > the > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of > > fatal > > > > > flooding. > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > > keeping up > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats sank > > at > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor upkeep. > > Who > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > couldn't > > > > keep > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. 500, > > > > 1100, > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds of > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used only > > in > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose pumps > > with > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them until > > the > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual pump. > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to crash > > but > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but preparing > > > > ahead > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > > reduce > > > > the > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should all > > be > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. My > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore and > > aft. > > > > The > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and made > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. Underway > > the > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > > compartments. > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries me > > is > > > > the > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > > floating > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where > > alloy > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where comparable. > > The > > > > > alloy > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks and > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case of > > the > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in the > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are willing to > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, bigger > > > > > engines, > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. All > > of > > > > these > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the problem, > > as > > > > you > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more > > cost, > > > > etc, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance issues > > are a > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find a > > way to > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and cockpit > > > > would > > > > > go > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the seals > > fail. > > > > > This > > > > > > would > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the hull > > > > strength > > > > > and > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think that > > one > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by force. > > An > > > > axe > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some > > ports, > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material that > > can > > > > be > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > > obstacles > > > > as > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13534|13384|2007-06-03 12:19:37|seeratlas|Re: Backstay antennas|thanks for the heads up Colin, that makes for sound reading. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > I'd be very interested in the latest thinking on lightning > protection, > > > > and the preservation of electronics gear in the face of a strike on > > > > or near a metal boat. Especially since my boat is to be diesel > > > > electric LOL. :) > > > > > > > > Seems to me several of our members had some expertise in this area > > > Seer - you might want to check out this SSCA thread: > > http://64.70.221.24/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=209 > > Colin > | 13535|13412|2007-06-03 15:15:48|richytill|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|For what it's worth, a local person on the coast here, just made an enquiry about having a 36' built in the interior. The cost for a primed hull was around $70,000. That did not include ballast. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone make > a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind > with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it is > reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker for > $15,000. > O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull > plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, > before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, or > many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the hull > plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I > recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been > unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a mostly "tacked" > condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of the > skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my > understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast in > the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own > impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of Jim, > the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I think > that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put > together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex > would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, but > he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these days. > Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to realize > the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a part > owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be too > big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you would > probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of the > old relics I harbour. Not this one. > I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look > before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about a > dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. Buying a > boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, just > not that much. > > For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray each > cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each day's > accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the > oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than is > necessary? > > Mike Graham > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Bullshit!!! > > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away from > > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. > Blasting > > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that stage > > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, price > > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks > worth , > > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's incredible > > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's why > > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their lots.It > > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for people > who > > have the forsight to se what has been done. > > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > > thousands just cleaning it.. > > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off any > gear > > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other > valuable > > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff they > > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months later , > > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look > generous. > > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's boat > is > > for sale for 15 grand. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other > boat > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk > in > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, > my > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest > that > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what > else > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the > shell > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > field > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which > were > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > welder - > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > grand > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value > to > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > primer as > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > fairly > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > dedicate > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that > Paul > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat > and > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > operator/etc., > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > Regards, > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that > > > given a > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > decent > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. > Fit > > > her > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's > a > > > lot > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 > was > > > taken > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. > His > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put > him > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. > In > > > just > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > reinforced > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > Fortunately > > > the > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > believer in > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > issue > > > here > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a > small > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very > very > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around > out > > > there > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > > > designed > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes > you > > > think > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > containers, > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > ocean. > > > As > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > B.C., > > > the > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > containers > > > on > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot > of > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you > hit > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty > of > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying > to > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > > > property, > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > considering > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > Oday) - > > > or > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > certain > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > > > living, > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for > it's > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > fibreglass, > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > with. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > water. > > > Foam > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > kept in > > > the > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > > > negate > > > > > the > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in > our > > > choice > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be > taken > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of > > > fatal > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > > > keeping up > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats > sank > > > at > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > upkeep. > > > Who > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > couldn't > > > > > keep > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. > 500, > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds > of > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used > only > > > in > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose > pumps > > > with > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them > until > > > the > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > pump. > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > crash > > > but > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > preparing > > > > > ahead > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > > > reduce > > > > > the > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should > all > > > be > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. > My > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore > and > > > aft. > > > > > The > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and > made > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > Underway > > > the > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries > me > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > > > floating > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where > > > alloy > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > comparable. > > > The > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks > and > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case > of > > > the > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in > the > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > willing to > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, > bigger > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. > All > > > of > > > > > these > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > problem, > > > as > > > > > you > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more > > > cost, > > > > > etc, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > issues > > > are a > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find > a > > > way to > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > cockpit > > > > > would > > > > > > go > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > seals > > > fail. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > hull > > > > > strength > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > that > > > one > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > force. > > > An > > > > > axe > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some > > > ports, > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material > that > > > can > > > > > be > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > > > obstacles > > > > > as > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13536|13191|2007-06-03 15:38:53|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Raised Deck|Seer, Several models I have made. The most challenging one from 1.5mm aircraft ply, the most successful from thin card. I use models a lot in my work in domestic design and used to even more as an industrial designer. Brent, you are right about the sheer low point often being too far forward. It won't be on this boat of mine. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13537|13412|2007-06-03 16:36:11|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. By the same token, I'll bet that the person who inquired about having a boat built in the interior won't be following through on that transaction. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > For what it's worth, a local person on the coast here, just made an > enquiry about having a 36' built in the interior. The cost for a > primed hull was around $70,000. That did not include ballast. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone > make > > a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind > > with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it is > > reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker > for > > $15,000. > > O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull > > plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, > > before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, > or > > many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the hull > > plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I > > recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been > > unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a mostly "tacked" > > condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of > the > > skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my > > understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast > in > > the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own > > impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of Jim, > > the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I > think > > that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put > > together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex > > would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, but > > he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these days. > > Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to > realize > > the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a part > > owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be too > > big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you would > > probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of the > > old relics I harbour. Not this one. > > I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look > > before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about a > > dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. Buying > a > > boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, > just > > not that much. > > > > For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray > each > > cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each day's > > accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the > > oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than > is > > necessary? > > > > Mike Graham > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Bullshit!!! > > > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away > from > > > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. > > Blasting > > > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that > stage > > > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, > price > > > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks > > worth , > > > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > > > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's > incredible > > > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's why > > > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their lots.It > > > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for people > > who > > > have the forsight to se what has been done. > > > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > > > thousands just cleaning it.. > > > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off any > > gear > > > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > > > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other > > valuable > > > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff they > > > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months later , > > > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look > > generous. > > > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's > boat > > is > > > for sale for 15 grand. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in > other > > boat > > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to > talk > > in > > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since > I > > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, > > my > > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest > > that > > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what > > else > > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the > > shell > > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, > not > > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > > field > > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to > be > > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded > or > > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which > > were > > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed > the > > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > > welder - > > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > > grand > > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable > value > > to > > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this > same > > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > > primer as > > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their > first > > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts > to > > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how > it > > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has > been > > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > > fairly > > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > > dedicate > > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that > > Paul > > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of > steel > > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat > > and > > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > > operator/etc., > > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > > Regards, > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying > that > > > > given a > > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > > decent > > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. > > Fit > > > > her > > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. > There's > > a > > > > lot > > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 > > was > > > > taken > > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. > > His > > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to > put > > him > > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. > > In > > > > just > > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > > reinforced > > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > > Fortunately > > > > the > > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > > believer in > > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > > issue > > > > here > > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a > > small > > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is > very > > very > > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much > yet, > > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around > > out > > > > there > > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > > > > designed > > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes > > you > > > > think > > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > > containers, > > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > > ocean. > > > > As > > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > > B.C., > > > > the > > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > > containers > > > > on > > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot > > of > > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you > > hit > > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are > plenty > > of > > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm > trying > > to > > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > > > > property, > > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > > considering > > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > > Oday) - > > > > or > > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > > certain > > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if > the > > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > > > > living, > > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for > > it's > > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > > fibreglass, > > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > > with. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > > water. > > > > Foam > > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > > kept in > > > > the > > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > > > > negate > > > > > > the > > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in > > our > > > > choice > > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be > > taken > > > > at > > > > > > the > > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance > of > > > > fatal > > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and > aft > > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > > > > keeping up > > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three > boats > > sank > > > > at > > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > > upkeep. > > > > Who > > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > > couldn't > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. > > 500, > > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are > hundreds > > of > > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used > > only > > > > in > > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose > > pumps > > > > with > > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them > > until > > > > the > > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > > pump. > > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > > crash > > > > but > > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > > preparing > > > > > > ahead > > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > > > > reduce > > > > > > the > > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we > should > > all > > > > be > > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and > floatation. > > My > > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore > > and > > > > aft. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and > > made > > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > > Underway > > > > the > > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that > worries > > me > > > > is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to > be > > > > > > floating > > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, > where > > > > alloy > > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > > comparable. > > > > The > > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks > > and > > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the > case > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone > in > > the > > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > > willing to > > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, > > bigger > > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. > > All > > > > of > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > > problem, > > > > as > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, > more > > > > cost, > > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > > issues > > > > are a > > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to > find > > a > > > > way to > > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > > cockpit > > > > > > would > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > > seals > > > > fail. > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > > hull > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > > that > > > > one > > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > > force. > > > > An > > > > > > axe > > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out > some > > > > ports, > > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material > > that > > > > can > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > > > > obstacles > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13538|13189|2007-06-03 17:10:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|For ages, humans have murdered humans, stolen their land, their food, enslaved the survivors, regardless of race. There is nothing unique about humans in this regard. Animals are territorial. By claiming land and protecting it, their odds of survival increase. The idea that "whites" are different than "reds" is racism. That idea is what justified the seizure of land. By supporting the idea that people are different, based on the color of their skin, you are supporting the wrong headed thinking that caused the problem. To blame "white" people living today, for something done in the past, for something they did not agree to, for something they did not approve of, this is racism. I personally don't know any "whites" that support killing anyone or seizing their land. When governments seize land, this is expropriation. Anyone that has land seized must be fairly compensated. This is the law. Aboriginal land claims are no different than a anyone that has their land seized, regardless of "race". It is a legal matter, between Aboriginals and the government, caused in large part by the racism. However, you cannot solve racism through more racism. It will simply create new problems, likely worse than what we have now. Two wrongs do not make a right. Greg ________________________________ > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > including the extermination of entire populations.... > | 13539|13504|2007-06-03 17:28:37|audeojude|Posting Etiquette|I also would appreciate people to edit out most of the previous post when they reply. The mailing list itself keeps track of that your post is a reply in a thread/topic. We can easily go back and ready the old posts if needed. Lately it has gotten to be very tiring to scroll down pages and pages of old text just to get to the new content. If I were on a dialup connection I would be even unhappier. This has been addressed on this group before, and all involved have previously courteously complied. I think we can all work on it again. Greg ... no it does not break any rules to not edit out the old stuff but it does show courtesy on your part when asked nicely to do so. So please to everyone on the list, edit the old material in your replies to posts. I and others would very much appreciate it. Scott Carle| 13540|13540|2007-06-03 18:09:30|seeratlas|Feasible Electric Drive|As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. the only thing not included in their systems is the separate smaller diesel generator I plan on installing in an isolation box located in the least intrusive part of the boat commensurate with weight considerations. Given no mechanical linkage required form the genset, it can be sound, temp, and mechanically isolated from the hull, thus minimal noise etc. and even that, only when running :) just a set of cables going to the battery bank which act as a kind of electric shock absorber between the genset and the motors. as you can see, the motors themselves are very compact, and thus the shaft can be very very short, and very simple. further, the motor and controller design makes it possible to 'regen' from the sea when under sail and that last 3/4's of a knot doesn't seem that important :) Given the crazy increases we're seeing in costs of fuel, this system combined with a wind gen and solar panels, not to mention a decent sailing boat n the first place, should knock the stuffing out of fuel costs per mile traveled. The battery bank I'm going to design into the keels :) might as well put all that lead to dual purpose work :) anyway, just a heads up on what i'm working on. :) seer oh, if you're wondering why i'm going thru all the trouble, visualize this...how many times have you been out in an 8 or 9 knot boat with 3 or 4 knots of wind? well, it ruins the whole effect to crank up the normal diesel aux, but what if you could just twist a dial and magically and near silently , move right on up to that 8knot cruise? would you do it? I think I might:) Two big advantages BESIDEs reaching cruise in otherwise incapable winds. 1. increased boat speed has a wind inducing effect thus you actually get more effect than just the added power from the motor, not to mention you're no longer 'dragging' the prop ;) and 2. added speed and induced wind will fill the sails and stabilize the boat from slopping around making things more stable and comfortable. I suppose you could add the third of silently whizzing past other boats who given the absence of smoke and noise, can't figure out why you're so much faster :) hehehehe. anyway, just an idea I toss out from time to time:).| 13541|13189|2007-06-03 18:23:08|Denis Buggy|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|dear Andy Airey , I normally do not write to this group un less I can contribute something there fore I write rarely , I would like to contribute to your education a little , I have a bike it is an old bmw r 80 and I have met many bikers in its time , you are the first biker to complain about police re businessmen in their limos that I have heard and the view that businessmen ever think about the serious fraud office on a daily-monthly yearly basis is news to me also you move on with speed to your own personal view that the Irish have a strong tendency to be bent and you follow the opinion strong with the word casual . if you were watching TV in the past week you will have seen the first address by a Irish prime minister to your houses of parliament in his speech you will have heard that the UK exports more goods to Ireland than to Russia Japan India and China combined we are one of your most important trading partners and had we been as you describe bent this would not be possible . if you wish to examine bent matters on a grand scale you can look at the seven million + who died as a result of the British salt tax in India which allowed Gandhi achieve indendipendance , or read British historian Cecil Woodham Smiths book The Great Hunger which shows the deliberate starvation of 13.5 million and death of 7.5 million in Ireland while two and a half times the food needed was exported and all emergency relief given free by U.S.A. and Indian and Canadian peoples had to be sold at full market value in order not to depress prices in Ireland and would be let rot on the quayside until this sum was paid , the gravestones are bent in Ireland mr Airey not the people and after a thousand years we are un broken and un bent with the struggle . Denis Buggy Kilkenny Ireland ----- Original Message ----- From: ANDREW AIREY To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 4:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13542|13540|2007-06-03 18:24:37|Mike|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|seer, Thanks for the link. I've looked at either this company or one like it before. Always an interesting concept. regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. > > the only thing not included in their systems is the separate smaller > diesel generator I plan on installing in an isolation box located in > the least intrusive part of the boat commensurate with weight > considerations. Given no mechanical linkage required form the genset, > it can be sound, temp, and mechanically isolated from the hull, thus > minimal noise etc. and even that, only when running :) just a set of > cables going to the battery bank which act as a kind of electric shock > absorber between the genset and the motors. > as you can see, the motors themselves are very compact, and thus the > shaft can be very very short, and very simple. further, the motor and > controller design makes it possible to 'regen' from the sea when under > sail and that last 3/4's of a knot doesn't seem that important :) > Given the crazy increases we're seeing in costs of fuel, this system > combined with a wind gen and solar panels, not to mention a decent > sailing boat n the first place, should knock the stuffing out of fuel > costs per mile traveled. > > The battery bank I'm going to design into the keels :) might as well > put all that lead to dual purpose work :) > > anyway, just a heads up on what i'm working on. :) > > seer > > oh, if you're wondering why i'm going thru all the trouble, visualize > this...how many times have you been out in an 8 or 9 knot boat with 3 > or 4 knots of wind? well, it ruins the whole effect to crank up the > normal diesel aux, but what if you could just twist a dial and > magically and near silently , move right on up to that 8knot cruise? > > would you do it? I think I might:) Two big advantages BESIDEs reaching > cruise in otherwise incapable winds. 1. increased boat speed has a > wind inducing effect thus you actually get more effect than just the > added power from the motor, not to mention you're no longer 'dragging' > the prop ;) and 2. added speed and induced wind will fill the sails > and stabilize the boat from slopping around making things more stable > and comfortable. I suppose you could add the third of silently > whizzing past other boats who given the absence of smoke and noise, > can't figure out why you're so much faster :) hehehehe. > > anyway, just an idea I toss out from time to time:). > | 13543|13540|2007-06-03 18:29:23|seeratlas|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|couple of other things I ought to mention. The motor Asmo uses is the Lynch motor. Nice motor but there are competitors at varying prices. Besides the small size of the 'pancake' design, it has several other advantages. 1. it dissipates heat very well, 2. it can also be run backwards as a generator, thus, you could, as i plan to, build your own genset using one of the motors, thus having a working 'spare' :) In my case i'll probably run two drive motors and then one more on the diesel genset giving me a lot of redundancy, an extremely robust and easily serviced genset, not to mention compact, and simple as hell, as I'm essentially just dumping into the battery bank as required. Note, it is possible to generate all manner of voltages, ac/or dc as you require but would require a lot more electronics, which are going to need to be specifically prepped for life on the ocean. but,, that's been done already :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. > > the only thing not included in their systems is the separate smaller > diesel generator I plan on installing in an isolation box located in > the least intrusive part of the boat commensurate with weight > considerations. Given no mechanical linkage required form the genset, > it can be sound, temp, and mechanically isolated from the hull, thus > minimal noise etc. and even that, only when running :) just a set of > cables going to the battery bank which act as a kind of electric shock > absorber between the genset and the motors. > as you can see, the motors themselves are very compact, and thus the > shaft can be very very short, and very simple. further, the motor and > controller design makes it possible to 'regen' from the sea when under > sail and that last 3/4's of a knot doesn't seem that important :) > Given the crazy increases we're seeing in costs of fuel, this system > combined with a wind gen and solar panels, not to mention a decent > sailing boat n the first place, should knock the stuffing out of fuel > costs per mile traveled. > > The battery bank I'm going to design into the keels :) might as well > put all that lead to dual purpose work :) > > anyway, just a heads up on what i'm working on. :) > > seer > > oh, if you're wondering why i'm going thru all the trouble, visualize > this...how many times have you been out in an 8 or 9 knot boat with 3 > or 4 knots of wind? well, it ruins the whole effect to crank up the > normal diesel aux, but what if you could just twist a dial and > magically and near silently , move right on up to that 8knot cruise? > > would you do it? I think I might:) Two big advantages BESIDEs reaching > cruise in otherwise incapable winds. 1. increased boat speed has a > wind inducing effect thus you actually get more effect than just the > added power from the motor, not to mention you're no longer 'dragging' > the prop ;) and 2. added speed and induced wind will fill the sails > and stabilize the boat from slopping around making things more stable > and comfortable. I suppose you could add the third of silently > whizzing past other boats who given the absence of smoke and noise, > can't figure out why you're so much faster :) hehehehe. > > anyway, just an idea I toss out from time to time:). > | 13544|13412|2007-06-03 18:39:41|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|well, I know of one buildr in canada who will throw together a full 5o footer in steel plate on frame for a little under 800k, and that's US dollars :) hehehe didn't greg build a couple of 50 somethings a few years ago in alloy for around 150k a piece? I guess the bottom line is that boats can be pretty much as expensive as you like :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > By the same token, I'll bet that the person who inquired about having > a boat built in the interior won't be following through on that > transaction. > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, a local person on the coast here, just made an > > enquiry about having a 36' built in the interior. The cost for a > > primed hull was around $70,000. That did not include ballast. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone > > make > > > a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind > > > with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it > is > > > reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker > > for > > > $15,000. > > > O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull > > > plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, > > > before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, > > or > > > many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the > hull > > > plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I > > > recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been > > > unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a > mostly "tacked" > > > condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of > > the > > > skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my > > > understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast > > in > > > the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own > > > impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of > Jim, > > > the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I > > think > > > that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put > > > together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex > > > would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, > but > > > he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these > days. > > > Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to > > realize > > > the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a > part > > > owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be > too > > > big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you > would > > > probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of > the > > > old relics I harbour. Not this one. > > > I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look > > > before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about > a > > > dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. > Buying > > a > > > boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, > > just > > > not that much. > > > > > > For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray > > each > > > cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each > day's > > > accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the > > > oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than > > is > > > necessary? > > > > > > Mike Graham > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bullshit!!! > > > > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away > > from > > > > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. > > > Blasting > > > > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that > > stage > > > > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, > > price > > > > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks > > > worth , > > > > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > > > > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's > > incredible > > > > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's > why > > > > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their > lots.It > > > > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for > people > > > who > > > > have the forsight to se what has been done. > > > > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > > > > thousands just cleaning it.. > > > > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off > any > > > gear > > > > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > > > > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other > > > valuable > > > > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff > they > > > > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months > later , > > > > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look > > > generous. > > > > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's > > boat > > > is > > > > for sale for 15 grand. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in > > other > > > boat > > > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to > > talk > > > in > > > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue > since > > I > > > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual > inspection, > > > my > > > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would > suggest > > > that > > > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, > what > > > else > > > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, > the > > > shell > > > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, > > not > > > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > > > field > > > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems > to > > be > > > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded > > or > > > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges > which > > > were > > > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed > > the > > > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > > > welder - > > > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > > > grand > > > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat > of > > > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was > the > > > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable > > value > > > to > > > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for > the > > > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project > itself. > > > > > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this > > same > > > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > > > primer as > > > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their > > first > > > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's > efforts > > to > > > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how > > it > > > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has > > been > > > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > > > fairly > > > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > > > dedicate > > > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe > that > > > Paul > > > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of > > steel > > > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of > boat > > > and > > > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > > > operator/etc., > > > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying > > that > > > > > given a > > > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > > > decent > > > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's > boat. > > > Fit > > > > > her > > > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. > > There's > > > a > > > > > lot > > > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built > 54 > > > was > > > > > taken > > > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining > years. > > > His > > > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to > > put > > > him > > > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 > knots. > > > In > > > > > just > > > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > > > reinforced > > > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > > > Fortunately > > > > > the > > > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > > > believer in > > > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > > > issue > > > > > here > > > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER > hit > > > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be > a > > > small > > > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is > > very > > > very > > > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much > > yet, > > > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running > around > > > out > > > > > there > > > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the > poorly > > > > > designed > > > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it > makes > > > you > > > > > think > > > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > > > containers, > > > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > > > ocean. > > > > > As > > > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > > > B.C., > > > > > the > > > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > > > containers > > > > > on > > > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a > lot > > > of > > > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if > you > > > hit > > > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are > > plenty > > > of > > > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm > > trying > > > to > > > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing > my > > > > > property, > > > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of > the > > > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > > > considering > > > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > > > Oday) - > > > > > or > > > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > > > certain > > > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if > > the > > > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make > my > > > > > living, > > > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me > for > > > it's > > > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > > > fibreglass, > > > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > > > with. > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > > > water. > > > > > Foam > > > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > > > kept in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction > could > > > > > negate > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems > in > > > our > > > > > choice > > > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could > be > > > taken > > > > > at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance > > of > > > > > fatal > > > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and > > aft > > > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope > of > > > > > keeping up > > > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three > > boats > > > sank > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > > > upkeep. > > > > > Who > > > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" > pumps. > > > 500, > > > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are > > hundreds > > > of > > > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be > used > > > only > > > > > in > > > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" > hose > > > pumps > > > > > with > > > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run > them > > > until > > > > > the > > > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > > > pump. > > > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > > > crash > > > > > but > > > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > > > preparing > > > > > > > ahead > > > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and > will > > > > > reduce > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we > > should > > > all > > > > > be > > > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and > > floatation. > > > My > > > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads > fore > > > and > > > > > aft. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down > and > > > made > > > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > > > Underway > > > > > the > > > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into > three > > > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that > > worries > > > me > > > > > is > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured > to > > be > > > > > > > floating > > > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, > > where > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > > > comparable. > > > > > The > > > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of > cracks > > > and > > > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the > > case > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone > > in > > > the > > > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > > > willing to > > > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger > sails, > > > bigger > > > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger > winches. > > > All > > > > > of > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > > > problem, > > > > > as > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, > > more > > > > > cost, > > > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > > > issues > > > > > are a > > > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to > > find > > > a > > > > > way to > > > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > > > cockpit > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > > > seals > > > > > fail. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > > > hull > > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > > > that > > > > > one > > > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > > > force. > > > > > An > > > > > > > axe > > > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out > > some > > > > > ports, > > > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a > material > > > that > > > > > can > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the > same > > > > > obstacles > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13545|13189|2007-06-03 18:59:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Criminal Code of Canada 319 (2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction. _______________________________ > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > | 13547|13189|2007-06-03 19:24:34|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|I don't care much what you call it greg. It's historical fact LOL. Why don't you go explain the error of my thinking to those 'indians' (not my word for em) for whom the Carribean is named...oh yeah, that's right, no can do cause there AREN'T ANY LEFT!!!! well, to be entirely honest, that's not entirely true. Unbeknownst to the euros, who probably would've killed em off if they'd known, if u really look hard, and if my memory serves, correctly they barely avoided extinction and over the course of the last 500 plus years and doing their best for consecutive baby booms, they've managed to almost break 3000 on what remains of their little reservation on Dominica. Good looking natives too, you'd like them. and as for "nothing unique about humans in this regard"...er uh...there are very few animals on earth that kill for fun, gold, shiny rocks, whatever. In my experience I can only recall a few, the first a group of hawks called the accipiters http://www.peregrinefund.org/Explore_Raptors/hawks/accipter.html which can go into a blind rage killing over and over again things they have no intention of eating..(I've trained all three). It's really something to see a six ounce hawk try to kill a thousand pound cow... I've seen bottlenosed dolphins do it, mostly to smaller dolphin species LOL, course I've also had a bunch of em come protect me in the open ocean once, so I won't be overly judgemental on them... I've heard of chimps killing things and each other for no apparent reason, course they're much closer to men :) and maybe they had a grudge built up over something we didn't know about... some members of the cat family seem to like to kill for fun. With respect to domesticated varieties, this may not be volition, just suppressed instinct. that's about it, tho I'm sure there are some others out there I've either forgotten about or never seen, but in any event, a mere handful compared to the millions of species running around this planet. I'd say that puts humans in a pretty exclusive club, wouldn't you? Especially when it comes to killing for 'god'.....can't think of anything else that does that... maybe I don't understand your definition of 'unique'. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > For ages, humans have murdered humans, stolen their land, their food, > enslaved the survivors, regardless of race. There is nothing unique about > humans in this regard. Animals are territorial. By claiming land and > protecting it, their odds of survival increase. > > The idea that "whites" are different than "reds" is racism. That idea is > what justified the seizure of land. By supporting the idea that people are > different, based on the color of their skin, you are supporting the wrong > headed thinking that caused the problem. > > To blame "white" people living today, for something done in the past, for > something they did not agree to, for something they did not approve of, this > is racism. I personally don't know any "whites" that support killing anyone > or seizing their land. > > When governments seize land, this is expropriation. Anyone that has land > seized must be fairly compensated. This is the law. Aboriginal land claims > are no different than a anyone that has their land seized, regardless of > "race". It is a legal matter, between Aboriginals and the government, > caused in large part by the racism. > > However, you cannot solve racism through more racism. It will simply create > new problems, likely worse than what we have now. Two wrongs do not make a > right. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > > | 13548|13189|2007-06-03 19:40:52|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > I personally don't know any "whites" that support killing anyone > or seizing their land. > > Greg, There is this place called the "Mid-East"...go there. Meet some, all sides. There is this place called 'Moscow", little bitty town, great big empire..for a while :)go there, meet some. Try Rome, London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Amsterdam, Bergen, oh, and don't forget Madrid... closer to home you might try Toronto, or Washington.. I'd say go talk to an irish, but one has already posted. You must have been sailing a lot, you seem to missed out on almost the entirety of western 'christian' civilization. What was it Mark Twain said so eloquently.. "why those christians have made a graveyard of the globe.... in the name of 'brotherly love'." seer| 13550|13412|2007-06-03 20:59:10|richytill|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|The guy gave up instantly when he found out that after 70K he still had to pour lead and paint and foam. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > By the same token, I'll bet that the person who inquired about having > a boat built in the interior won't be following through on that > transaction. > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, a local person on the coast here, just made an > > enquiry about having a 36' built in the interior. The cost for a > > primed hull was around $70,000. That did not include ballast. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone > > make > > > a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind > > > with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it > is > > > reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker > > for > > > $15,000. > > > O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull > > > plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, > > > before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, > > or > > > many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the > hull > > > plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I > > > recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been > > > unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a > mostly "tacked" > > > condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of > > the > > > skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my > > > understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast > > in > > > the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own > > > impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of > Jim, > > > the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I > > think > > > that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put > > > together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex > > > would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, > but > > > he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these > days. > > > Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to > > realize > > > the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a > part > > > owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be > too > > > big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you > would > > > probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of > the > > > old relics I harbour. Not this one. > > > I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look > > > before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about > a > > > dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. > Buying > > a > > > boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, > > just > > > not that much. > > > > > > For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray > > each > > > cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each > day's > > > accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the > > > oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than > > is > > > necessary? > > > > > > Mike Graham > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bullshit!!! > > > > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away > > from > > > > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. > > > Blasting > > > > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that > > stage > > > > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, > > price > > > > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks > > > worth , > > > > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > > > > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's > > incredible > > > > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's > why > > > > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their > lots.It > > > > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for > people > > > who > > > > have the forsight to se what has been done. > > > > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > > > > thousands just cleaning it.. > > > > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off > any > > > gear > > > > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > > > > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other > > > valuable > > > > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff > they > > > > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months > later , > > > > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look > > > generous. > > > > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's > > boat > > > is > > > > for sale for 15 grand. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in > > other > > > boat > > > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to > > talk > > > in > > > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue > since > > I > > > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual > inspection, > > > my > > > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would > suggest > > > that > > > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, > what > > > else > > > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, > the > > > shell > > > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, > > not > > > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > > > field > > > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems > to > > be > > > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded > > or > > > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges > which > > > were > > > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed > > the > > > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > > > welder - > > > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > > > grand > > > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat > of > > > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was > the > > > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable > > value > > > to > > > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for > the > > > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project > itself. > > > > > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this > > same > > > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > > > primer as > > > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their > > first > > > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's > efforts > > to > > > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how > > it > > > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has > > been > > > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > > > fairly > > > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > > > dedicate > > > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe > that > > > Paul > > > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of > > steel > > > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of > boat > > > and > > > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > > > operator/etc., > > > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying > > that > > > > > given a > > > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > > > decent > > > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's > boat. > > > Fit > > > > > her > > > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. > > There's > > > a > > > > > lot > > > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built > 54 > > > was > > > > > taken > > > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining > years. > > > His > > > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to > > put > > > him > > > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 > knots. > > > In > > > > > just > > > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > > > reinforced > > > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > > > Fortunately > > > > > the > > > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > > > believer in > > > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > > > issue > > > > > here > > > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER > hit > > > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be > a > > > small > > > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is > > very > > > very > > > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much > > yet, > > > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running > around > > > out > > > > > there > > > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the > poorly > > > > > designed > > > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it > makes > > > you > > > > > think > > > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > > > containers, > > > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > > > ocean. > > > > > As > > > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > > > B.C., > > > > > the > > > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > > > containers > > > > > on > > > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a > lot > > > of > > > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if > you > > > hit > > > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are > > plenty > > > of > > > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm > > trying > > > to > > > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing > my > > > > > property, > > > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of > the > > > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > > > considering > > > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > > > Oday) - > > > > > or > > > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > > > certain > > > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if > > the > > > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make > my > > > > > living, > > > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me > for > > > it's > > > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > > > fibreglass, > > > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > > > with. > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > > > water. > > > > > Foam > > > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > > > kept in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction > could > > > > > negate > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems > in > > > our > > > > > choice > > > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could > be > > > taken > > > > > at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance > > of > > > > > fatal > > > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and > > aft > > > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope > of > > > > > keeping up > > > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three > > boats > > > sank > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > > > upkeep. > > > > > Who > > > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" > pumps. > > > 500, > > > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are > > hundreds > > > of > > > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be > used > > > only > > > > > in > > > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" > hose > > > pumps > > > > > with > > > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run > them > > > until > > > > > the > > > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > > > pump. > > > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > > > crash > > > > > but > > > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > > > preparing > > > > > > > ahead > > > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and > will > > > > > reduce > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we > > should > > > all > > > > > be > > > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and > > floatation. > > > My > > > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads > fore > > > and > > > > > aft. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down > and > > > made > > > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > > > Underway > > > > > the > > > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into > three > > > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that > > worries > > > me > > > > > is > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured > to > > be > > > > > > > floating > > > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, > > where > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > > > comparable. > > > > > The > > > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of > cracks > > > and > > > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the > > case > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone > > in > > > the > > > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > > > willing to > > > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger > sails, > > > bigger > > > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger > winches. > > > All > > > > > of > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > > > problem, > > > > > as > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, > > more > > > > > cost, > > > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > > > issues > > > > > are a > > > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to > > find > > > a > > > > > way to > > > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > > > cockpit > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > > > seals > > > > > fail. > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > > > hull > > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > > > that > > > > > one > > > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > > > force. > > > > > An > > > > > > > axe > > > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out > > some > > > > > ports, > > > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a > material > > > that > > > > > can > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the > same > > > > > obstacles > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13551|13189|2007-06-03 21:21:35|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|lol. greg, u r going to have to get a grip here. :) are you suggesting that my comment u quote is actionable under the Canadian statute u cite? and you are suggesting this to a lawyer? :) Now I may not be admitted to Canada's courts, however I am a member of the Lincoln's Inn, or was last time I looked :) and I HAVE tried a case or two in Commonwealth jurisdictions, and I am admitted to the bar of the United States' International Court of Claims, tho I'm a bit rusty in that area. In any event, off the top of my head I see several problems with your planning of my imminent incarceration :) First, I don't believe I'm subject to Canadian jurisdiction by posting on this board. :) Second, this is arguably a 'private' conversation in that its restricted to members of this group :) Thirdly, I would suggest that I am not "wilfully promoting hatred against any identifiable group" in that: a. i'm not willfully promoting hatred against anyone :)I'm just stating facts :) which in these defamation related types of cases, usually constitutes an absolute defense ; b. havn't you been arguing that 'race' doesn't exist? therefore by what means is my alleged target to be identified? :) The remainder of the statute merely lays out the possible punitive consequences. As a general statement, I would be interested in the constitutionality of this statute. In most western jurisdictions it would fail ab initio on the grounds of vagueness. What 'group' are they talking about? Tories? Fisherman? Men over 40? rflmao. Hell if enforced in Cananda every Bar would have to be emptied within 30 minutes of its first 'group' of patrons strolling in :) In the US, it would be ruled unconstitutional on its face; good old American free speech and all that. Lastly even if hatred were my intention, which it clearly is not, (i'm part white too you know :) you are suggesting that Canada has with a stroke of her legislative pens rewritten that age old adage..'sticks and stone may break my bones, but words are now illegal? " rflmao. I guess things north of the border really are getting a little out of hand. I wonder how many times this thing has been invoked. amazing really. in any event, it doesn't offer an acceptable response to reasoned argument. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Criminal Code of Canada > > 319 (2) > > Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private > conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is > guilty of > > (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not > exceeding two years; or > > (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction. > > > _______________________________ > > > > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > > > | 13552|13412|2007-06-03 21:25:37|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|wasn't implying that it wasn't a 'deal', just pointing out some different examples of larger boats in metals. I was contrasting your 150k to the 800k the guy wanted in steel, and reminding the group that you DO know how to build a metal boat :) LOL. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > $150 k for a 50 footer in alloy is a deal. The last two 36's we've heard > about were $100k and $110k in steel. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:38 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > well, I know of one buildr in canada who will throw together a full 5o > footer in steel plate on frame for a little under 800k, and that's US > dollars :) hehehe > > didn't greg build a couple of 50 somethings a few years ago in alloy > for around 150k a piece? > > I guess the bottom line is that boats can be pretty much as expensive > as you like :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "Mike" wrote: > > > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > By the same token, I'll bet that the person who inquired about having > > a boat built in the interior won't be following through on that > > transaction. > > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > > > For what it's worth, a local person on the coast here, just made an > > > enquiry about having a 36' built in the interior. The cost for a > > > primed hull was around $70,000. That did not include ballast. rt > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > Well Brent, with all due respect, you're suggesting that someone > > > make > > > > a silk purse out of a sow's ear! I certainly have no axe to grind > > > > with Alex, he seems like a nice guy, but I don't believe that it > > is > > > > reasonable to slough this project off on some unsuspecting sucker > > > for > > > > $15,000. > > > > O.K., so you blast it to white metal. Aside from the loss of hull > > > > plate thickness, you have to transport the boat, first. But wait, > > > > before you transport it, the shell is going to have to be welded, > > > or > > > > many supports welded in. There is already a deflection in the > > hull > > > > plate above the keel-hull joint - more so on the stbd hull if I > > > > recall correctly - no doubt, from the shell having been > > > > unceremoniously dragged across a field, while in a > > mostly "tacked" > > > > condition. There appears to be a "hook" toward the aft section of > > > the > > > > skeg, the aft edge not aligning with the centreline. It is my > > > > understanding that there is no lead - or other material - ballast > > > in > > > > the keels, nor included in the sale. I can only go by my own > > > > impressions, based on my experience of steelwork, and that of > > Jim, > > > > the retired steelworker who, as you know, owns the property. I > > > think > > > > that the concensus when we viewed her was that it was a well put > > > > together hull & deck, that was miserably neglected. Perhaps, Alex > > > > would be better off blasting & priming the hull, prior to sale, > > but > > > > he seems to have committed his time and money to travel, these > > days. > > > > Believe me, I considered every step of what it would take to > > > realize > > > > the completion of this project, and was considering becoming a > > part > > > > owner of her, my money/Alex's work. In the end, I felt it to be > > too > > > > big a gamble. If you were to see my shop in Fort Langley, you > > would > > > > probably label me the patron saint of loss causes, for some of > > the > > > > old relics I harbour. Not this one. > > > > I simply suggest that any member of this group have a close look > > > > before committing to a purchase. 15' of weld left? Yeah, in about > > a > > > > dozen different places. Buying a "dirty" boat is one thing. > > Buying > > > a > > > > boat with a compromised shell is another. I have faith in steel, > > > just > > > > not that much. > > > > > > > > For those building a boat: It takes very little effort to spray > > > each > > > > cut/tacked/welded joint with weld-through primer, after each > > day's > > > > accomplishments. Why waste all of that labour by letting the > > > > oxidation run it's course? Why create more work for yourself than > > > is > > > > necessary? > > > > > > > > Mike Graham > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bullshit!!! > > > > > The amount of corrosion you get from two years in a field ,away > > > from > > > > > any salt water , in a cold climate is totally insignificant. > > > > Blasting > > > > > her would be easy. Let someone else try to get a boat to that > > > stage > > > > > and you'd be into far more money and time that Alex is asking, > > > price > > > > > of sanblasting included.The remaining welding is about a weeks > > > > worth , > > > > > or less. Then ballasting and you are ready for sandblasting and > > > > > painting. She could be cruising before summer's out.It's > > > incredible > > > > > how people judge things by what they see on the surface.That's > > why > > > > > used car salesmen put so many strings of lights over their > > lots.It > > > > > works ( On the gullible) Makes for good labour saving for > > people > > > > who > > > > > have the forsight to se what has been done. > > > > > I've always told boat buyers to buy a dirty boat, you'll make > > > > > thousands just cleaning it.. > > > > > A friend selling a boat was told by the brokers to take off > > any > > > > gear > > > > > they can use as extra gear makes a boat look cluttered whereas a > > > > > stripped out boat looks clean.Thsi includes radar, and other > > > > valuable > > > > > elctronics. I've suggested that they strip the boat, of stuff > > they > > > > > don' tneed , then offer it back to the buyers a few months > > later , > > > > > after they have tried to get along without it. Makes you look > > > > generous. > > > > > It would take fool to start a new 36 in the area while Alex's > > > boat > > > > is > > > > > for sale for 15 grand. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in > > > other > > > > boat > > > > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to > > > talk > > > > in > > > > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue > > since > > > I > > > > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual > > inspection, > > > > my > > > > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would > > suggest > > > > that > > > > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, > > what > > > > else > > > > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, > > the > > > > shell > > > > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, > > > not > > > > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > > > > field > > > > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems > > to > > > be > > > > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded > > > or > > > > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges > > which > > > > were > > > > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed > > > the > > > > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > > > > welder - > > > > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > > > > grand > > > > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat > > of > > > > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was > > the > > > > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable > > > value > > > > to > > > > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for > > the > > > > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this > > > same > > > > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > > > > primer as > > > > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their > > > first > > > > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's > > efforts > > > to > > > > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how > > > it > > > > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has > > > been > > > > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > > > > fairly > > > > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > > > > dedicate > > > > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe > > that > > > > Paul > > > > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of > > > steel > > > > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of > > boat > > > > and > > > > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > > > > operator/etc., > > > > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying > > > that > > > > > > given a > > > > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > > > > decent > > > > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's > > boat. > > > > Fit > > > > > > her > > > > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. > > > There's > > > > a > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built > > 54 > > > > was > > > > > > taken > > > > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining > > years. > > > > His > > > > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to > > > put > > > > him > > > > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 > > knots. > > > > In > > > > > > just > > > > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > > > > reinforced > > > > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > > > > Fortunately > > > > > > the > > > > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > > > > believer in > > > > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > > > > issue > > > > > > here > > > > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER > > hit > > > > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be > > a > > > > small > > > > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is > > > very > > > > very > > > > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much > > > yet, > > > > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running > > around > > > > out > > > > > > there > > > > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the > > poorly > > > > > > designed > > > > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it > > makes > > > > you > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > > > > containers, > > > > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > > > > ocean. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > > > > B.C., > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > > > > containers > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a > > lot > > > > of > > > > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if > > you > > > > hit > > > > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are > > > plenty > > > > of > > > > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm > > > trying > > > > to > > > > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing > > my > > > > > > property, > > > > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of > > the > > > > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > > > > considering > > > > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > > > > Oday) - > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > > > > certain > > > > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if > > > the > > > > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make > > my > > > > > > living, > > > > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me > > for > > > > it's > > > > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > > > > fibreglass, > > > > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > > > > with. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > > > > water. > > > > > > Foam > > > > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > > > > kept in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction > > could > > > > > > negate > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems > > in > > > > our > > > > > > choice > > > > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could > > be > > > > taken > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance > > > of > > > > > > fatal > > > > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and > > > aft > > > > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope > > of > > > > > > keeping up > > > > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three > > > boats > > > > sank > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > > > > upkeep. > > > > > > Who > > > > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" > > pumps. > > > > 500, > > > > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are > > > hundreds > > > > of > > > > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be > > used > > > > only > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" > > hose > > > > pumps > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run > > them > > > > until > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > > > > pump. > > > > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > > > > crash > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > > > > preparing > > > > > > > > ahead > > > > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and > > will > > > > > > reduce > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we > > > should > > > > all > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and > > > floatation. > > > > My > > > > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads > > fore > > > > and > > > > > > aft. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down > > and > > > > made > > > > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > > > > Underway > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into > > three > > > > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that > > > worries > > > > me > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured > > to > > > be > > > > > > > > floating > > > > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, > > > where > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > > > > comparable. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of > > cracks > > > > and > > > > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the > > > case > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone > > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > > > > willing to > > > > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger > > sails, > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger > > winches. > > > > All > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > > > > problem, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, > > > more > > > > > > cost, > > > > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > > > > issues > > > > > > are a > > > > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to > > > find > > > > a > > > > > > way to > > > > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > > > > cockpit > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > > > > seals > > > > > > fail. > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > > > > hull > > > > > > > > strength > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > > > > that > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > > > > force. > > > > > > An > > > > > > > > axe > > > > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out > > > some > > > > > > ports, > > > > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a > > material > > > > that > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the > > same > > > > > > obstacles > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13553|13189|2007-06-03 21:50:30|Wesley Cox|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Yeah! Fry him! Just kidding. You and I don't always see eye to eye, seer, but you seem an honorable man. Greg, wtf??? ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing lol. greg, u r going to have to get a grip here. :) are you suggesting that my comment u quote is actionable under the Canadian statute u cite? and you are suggesting this to a lawyer? :) Now I may not be admitted to Canada's courts, however I am a member of the Lincoln's Inn, or was last time I looked :) and I HAVE tried a case or two in Commonwealth jurisdictions, and I am admitted to the bar of the United States' International Court of Claims, tho I'm a bit rusty in that area. In any event, off the top of my head I see several problems with your planning of my imminent incarceration :) First, I don't believe I'm subject to Canadian jurisdiction by posting on this board. :) Second, this is arguably a 'private' conversation in that its restricted to members of this group :) Thirdly, I would suggest that I am not "wilfully promoting hatred against any identifiable group" in that: a. i'm not willfully promoting hatred against anyone :)I'm just stating facts :) which in these defamation related types of cases, usually constitutes an absolute defense ; b. havn't you been arguing that 'race' doesn't exist? therefore by what means is my alleged target to be identified? :) The remainder of the statute merely lays out the possible punitive consequences. As a general statement, I would be interested in the constitutionality of this statute. In most western jurisdictions it would fail ab initio on the grounds of vagueness. What 'group' are they talking about? Tories? Fisherman? Men over 40? rflmao. Hell if enforced in Cananda every Bar would have to be emptied within 30 minutes of its first 'group' of patrons strolling in :) In the US, it would be ruled unconstitutional on its face; good old American free speech and all that. Lastly even if hatred were my intention, which it clearly is not, (i'm part white too you know :) you are suggesting that Canada has with a stroke of her legislative pens rewritten that age old adage..'sticks and stone may break my bones, but words are now illegal? " rflmao. I guess things north of the border really are getting a little out of hand. I wonder how many times this thing has been invoked. amazing really. in any event, it doesn't offer an acceptable response to reasoned argument. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Criminal Code of Canada > > 319 (2) > > Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private > conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is > guilty of > > (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not > exceeding two years; or > > (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction. > > > _______________________________ > > > > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/2007 12:47 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13554|13506|2007-06-03 21:52:41|Gary|Re: Ciguatera|Ciguatera may have to shop around to find ANY fish to infect. Perhaps the bacteria will need to find new hosts. Here is the headline from Time Magazine a few months ago. Big-Fish Stocks Fall 90 Percent Since 1950, Study Says National Geographic News May 15, 2003 Only 10 percent of all large fish—both open ocean species including tuna, swordfish, marlin and the large groundfish such as cod, halibut, skates and flounder—are left in the sea, according to research published in today's issue of the scientific journal Nature. > Ciguatera toxins CAN be detected. Dr.Yoshitsugi Hokama of the > University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine has studied > these toxins for the past 21 years. A detection method is detailed in > the Journal of AOAC International, Vol. 81, No. 4. Dr. Hokama > continues to work with us alongside Dr. Joanne Ebesu, Research > Director, on a palytoxin detection method and work on other marine > toxins, including pfisteria, scombrotoxin, tetrodotoxin, paralytic > shellfish poisoning (PSP), and diarrhetic shellfish poisoning (DSP), > among others, is currently in the planning stages. > > The implications of this are quite extensive. For fisheries, this > opens up opportunities in several species of fish previously banned > from sale (e.g., barracuda in Florida, amberjack (kahala) in Hawaii). > What this means is: Tasty fish can now safely and with peace of mind > be eaten. In addition, there will not be as quick a public call for > government bans on fish entirely (e.g., in restaurants, markets, > imports, etc.), as has been proposed in Hong Kong earlier this year > when a ciguatera scare broke out from several poisoning cases > resulting from imported reef fish served in restaurants. > > You may wish to visit the Ciguatera Home Page which provides > information on ciguatera fish poisoning and toxin detection. If you > need additional information (e.g., technical, scientific, medical, > development history, cases, etc.), please feel free to contact Dr. > Ebesu. Please sent your queries via e-mail oceanit@..., voice > (808 531-3017) fax (808 531-3177) or snail mail: > > > Oceanit Test Systems, Inc. > 1100 Alakea St., 31st Fl. > Honolulu, HI 96813-2833 > USA > | 13555|13189|2007-06-03 21:56:38|Knut F Garshol|Canadian Criminal Code and related emails|Hi guys! I certainly read a lot of interesting emails about origami, steel boat building, engines, corrosion protection etc etc etc...... when I look up this board. Those are things I thought (naive as I am) that this board is all about??? If I wanted to read about the laws of any specific country (outside of things related to boats) I would prefer to do so on my own initiative and by using OTHER sources. Even though a lot of the subjects found here touching upon religion, race, laws and God knows what else that has NOTHING to do with boats are quite interesting and can be intellectually stimulating, my feeling is that it is now getting a bit out of hand. It is not really so interesting to see who may be able to "stab" the other with words and eloquent arguments. I have no problem just deleting such content, but it does take time to find out if some REAL content may be hidden in the information FOG somewhere. Has everything been said and done regarding boats? If so, then this board may as well close ? :-) Just a little input from one of the lurkers and fringe participants. Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13557|13504|2007-06-03 23:26:25|Mike|Re: Posting Etiquette|Sorry, all, I'd imagine I'm among the worst offenders. In fact, I did it again a few minutes ago. I'll do my best to erase the trail from now on. apologies, Mike| 13558|13189|2007-06-03 23:30:55|seeratlas|Re: Canadian Criminal Code and related emails|point taken knut :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Hi guys! > > > > I certainly read a lot of interesting emails about origami, steel boat > building, engines, corrosion protection etc etc etc...... when I look up > this board. > > > > Those are things I thought (naive as I am) that this board is all about??? > > > > If I wanted to read about the laws of any specific country (outside of > things related to boats) I would prefer to do so on my own initiative and by > using OTHER sources. > > > > Even though a lot of the subjects found here touching upon religion, race, > laws and God knows what else that has NOTHING to do with boats are quite > interesting and can be intellectually stimulating, my feeling is that it is > now getting a bit out of hand. It is not really so interesting to see who > may be able to "stab" the other with words and eloquent arguments. > > > > I have no problem just deleting such content, but it does take time to find > out if some REAL content may be hidden in the information FOG somewhere. > > > > Has everything been said and done regarding boats? If so, then this board > may as well close ? :-) > > > > Just a little input from one of the lurkers and fringe participants. > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13559|13189|2007-06-04 01:08:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Some people that are white have committed crimes as you describe. However, the vast majority of the "white" people on earth have never done any of the things you have listed below. I personally don't know any "whites" that have. Millions of "whites" have fought and died to prevent the crimes you talk about and many in this group have likely lost "white" ancestors who fought to prevent these crimes. If a "red" man steals from me, does this mean that all "red" men are thieves? Only by the faulty logic of racism. When you judge all white men guilty for the crimes of some who happened to be white, you are judging a man by the color of his skin. This is racism. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > I personally don't know any "whites" that support killing anyone > or seizing their land. > > Greg, There is this place called the "Mid-East"...go there. Meet some, all sides. There is this place called 'Moscow", little bitty town, great big empire..for a while :)go there, meet some. Try Rome, London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Amsterdam, Bergen, oh, and don't forget Madrid... closer to home you might try Toronto, or Washington.. I'd say go talk to an irish, but one has already posted. You must have been sailing a lot, you seem to missed out on almost the entirety of western 'christian' civilization. What was it Mark Twain said so eloquently.. "why those christians have made a graveyard of the globe.... in the name of 'brotherly love'." seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13560|13189|2007-06-04 01:39:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Racism is offensive. It doesn't belong in this group. Here is what Yahoo has to say: You agree to not use the Service to: 1. upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 6:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing lol. greg, u r going to have to get a grip here. :) are you suggesting that my comment u quote is actionable under the Canadian statute u cite? and you are suggesting this to a lawyer? :) Now I may not be admitted to Canada's courts, however I am a member of the Lincoln's Inn, or was last time I looked :) and I HAVE tried a case or two in Commonwealth jurisdictions, and I am admitted to the bar of the United States' International Court of Claims, tho I'm a bit rusty in that area. In any event, off the top of my head I see several problems with your planning of my imminent incarceration :) First, I don't believe I'm subject to Canadian jurisdiction by posting on this board. :) Second, this is arguably a 'private' conversation in that its restricted to members of this group :) Thirdly, I would suggest that I am not "wilfully promoting hatred against any identifiable group" in that: a. i'm not willfully promoting hatred against anyone :)I'm just stating facts :) which in these defamation related types of cases, usually constitutes an absolute defense ; b. havn't you been arguing that 'race' doesn't exist? therefore by what means is my alleged target to be identified? :) The remainder of the statute merely lays out the possible punitive consequences. As a general statement, I would be interested in the constitutionality of this statute. In most western jurisdictions it would fail ab initio on the grounds of vagueness. What 'group' are they talking about? Tories? Fisherman? Men over 40? rflmao. Hell if enforced in Cananda every Bar would have to be emptied within 30 minutes of its first 'group' of patrons strolling in :) In the US, it would be ruled unconstitutional on its face; good old American free speech and all that. Lastly even if hatred were my intention, which it clearly is not, (i'm part white too you know :) you are suggesting that Canada has with a stroke of her legislative pens rewritten that age old adage..'sticks and stone may break my bones, but words are now illegal? " rflmao. I guess things north of the border really are getting a little out of hand. I wonder how many times this thing has been invoked. amazing really. in any event, it doesn't offer an acceptable response to reasoned argument. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Criminal Code of Canada > > 319 (2) > > Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private > conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is > guilty of > > (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not > exceeding two years; or > > (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction. > > > _______________________________ > > > > > > > But, to the whites, its pursuit has justified the wholesale seizure of > > > land, the infliction of more pain and misery upon more peoples across > > > this globe than practically any other single 'thing' in history > > > including the extermination of entire populations.... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13561|13561|2007-06-04 04:10:28|sae140|Avoiding getting iced-in|Getting iced-in in winter isn't a problem for us Brits, as long as the Gulf Stream keeps running - but for anyone faced with this problem each year, how about this tip - which I came across a few days back: Use an "ice eater" to keep the ice threat at bay. It's an electric motor with a propeller attached and a cage around it. You suspend it in the water about 6 meters below the boat. It stirs up the water, and pushes warmer water to the surface, thereby keeping a circle of ice-free water about 20 meters in diameter. Works very well, even in the coldest weather. Colin| 13562|13189|2007-06-04 04:20:34|Mike|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant of a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've rounded up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to escape overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round them up, including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of cheese in big steel traps and spread them around the countryside. But the traps rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to try again with alloy traps. Seriously people, let's give it a rest before Alex comes back & grounds us all. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little out of hand..." > | 13563|13561|2007-06-04 04:26:01|Mike|Re: Avoiding getting iced-in|Colin, Where were you with this tasty tidbit when one of our coast guard icebreakers was frozen solid in Montreal's harbour? Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Getting iced-in in winter isn't a problem for us Brits, as long as the > Gulf Stream keeps running - but for anyone faced with this problem > each year, how about this tip - which I came across a few days back: > > Use an "ice eater" to keep the ice threat at bay. It's an electric > motor with a propeller attached and a cage around it. You suspend it > in the water about 6 meters below the boat. It stirs up the water, and > pushes warmer water to the surface, thereby keeping a circle of > ice-free water about 20 meters in diameter. Works very well, even in > the coldest weather. > > Colin > | 13564|13189|2007-06-04 08:52:28|Knut F Garshol|Racism, religion, Canadian Criminal Law etc etc etc|Greg, you are right that "Racism is offensive. It doesn't belong in this group" but: 1. You are stating the obvious and it is not necessary to spend ORIGAMI BOAT BUILDING board space to say it 2. It has nothing to do with this Board subject at all and I would recommend exercising a little common sense about what to post here. Relax, let go, brighten up, it is spring :-) I hope you read my posting to seer yesterday and I hope you realized that my posting was not only addressed to him............ (hint!) I have also a few favorite subjects that I would like to get started, like the pros and cons of bull-fighting. After all, if you go cruising you may arrive in countries where this takes place. If I succeed in starting a hot debate on this board with this subject I will be very encouraged and at suitable occasions will bring in my other 9 equally important and Origami-related subjects! ;-) Fooling around in (sail)-boats is FUN! Remember? :-)) Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13565|13412|2007-06-04 09:11:21|echo6@cableone.net|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|>As you may recall, I am not a big fan of welding these boats with 6010/11 - >though I use 6011 a lot at the drydock - because people who don't >weld stick for a living, and even some who do, don't know how to >manipulate it properly. Would you care to expound on this subject? I always thought 6011 was about the simplest, easiest rod to run on all position non clean steel... ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net| 13566|13566|2007-06-04 10:06:26|Jonathan Stevens|Using 6011|I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same rod. I'd be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13567|13189|2007-06-04 11:58:07|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|lol. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > out of hand..." > > > | 13568|13506|2007-06-04 12:01:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ciguatera|On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 01:52:29AM -0000, Gary wrote: > > > Ciguatera toxins CAN be detected. Dr.Yoshitsugi Hokama of the > > University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine has studied > > these toxins for the past 21 years. The Hawaiian charter fleet at the very least (others, too, but I know about these guys) has been using ciguatoxin detection kits for over ten years on any of the big fish that they catch and decide to keep. As I recall from their complaints, the kits are somewhat pricey - but cheaper than a stay in the hospital. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13569|13189|2007-06-04 12:06:45|seeratlas|Re: Racism, religion, Canadian Criminal Law etc etc etc|Knut said: > I have also a few favorite subjects that I would like to get started, like > the pros and cons of bull-fighting. After all, if you go cruising you may > arrive in countries where this takes place. If I succeed in starting a hot > debate on this board with this subject I will be very encouraged and at > suitable occasions will bring in my other 9 equally important and > Origami-related subjects! ;-) > Knut, for some reason I usually root for the bull :) tho I'll admit I count a number of PBR riders, including a few world champs, among my friends, but that contest is not 'to the death', and most of the top bulls actually seem to enjoy wailing on some hapless cowboy. Watch enough of em and you get the impression that they too are 'professionals': they certainly live the high life, sure beats the McDonald's route. They thoroughly enjoy turning would b 8 second glory, into 7.5 second disaster:) seer| 13571|13571|2007-06-04 12:30:35|audeojude|current off topic conversations|I would like to request that all the current off topic conversations be taken somewhere else. I usually don't mind when off topic stuff comes up but usually it isn't as angry and personal and it goes away quicker. I and I think many of the rest of us want to hear more about origami and boat systems etc... So as a favor to the rest of us lets let it die here. If you feel that you need to continue it then please email the person involved directly. I recognize that all involved have deeply held beliefs. I don't dispute your right to those beliefs. I just suggest that as adults we don't need to continue fighting in public about them or at least take it to the appropriate venue which this isn't. Personally this has gotten to the point where it feels like watching a couple or group have a fight in a restraunt where everyone else is just trying to eat dinner and is embarrassed to be around it. I am trying not to be offensive, I would just like to get back to what this forum is about. Very very sincerely, Scott Carle| 13574|13571|2007-06-04 14:16:17|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM] [origamiboats] current off topic conversations|Scott, not offended at all. Can you imagine, I agree wholeheartedly! Sailing is definitely FUN! :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of audeojude Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [origamiboats] current off topic conversations I would like to request that all the current off topic conversations be taken somewhere else. I usually don't mind when off topic stuff comes up but usually it isn't as angry and personal and it goes away quicker. I and I think many of the rest of us want to hear more about origami and boat systems etc... So as a favor to the rest of us lets let it die here. If you feel that you need to continue it then please email the person involved directly. I recognize that all involved have deeply held beliefs. I don't dispute your right to those beliefs. I just suggest that as adults we don't need to continue fighting in public about them or at least take it to the appropriate venue which this isn't. Personally this has gotten to the point where it feels like watching a couple or group have a fight in a restraunt where everyone else is just trying to eat dinner and is embarrassed to be around it. I am trying not to be offensive, I would just like to get back to what this forum is about. Very very sincerely, Scott Carle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13576|13412|2007-06-04 14:20:05|richytill|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, the bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden under filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat and no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure is used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a small boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I understand what you're saying. I went to Comox to have a break, > meet a few builders & owners and work on Paul's boat. Though I want a > larger boat, at 15 grand, I was seriously considering buying Alex's > boat. Sure, the pictures I initially viewed showed surface rust, but, > as you can appreciate, we've got rustier plates laying around in the > drydock yard, assumably, waiting to be used. Well, when I saw the > shell, I was pretty surprised, actually, saddened. > > I'm not saying that this is a pile of scrap metal, by any means. With > a sandblast, a lot of welding, lots of primer, and some strongback > straightening, this boat's construction can be continued. As you may > recall, I am not a big fan of welding these boats with 6010/11 - > though I use 6011 a lot at the drydock - because people who don't > weld stick for a living, and even some who do, don't know how to > manipulate it properly. At the time, I was not aware that Brent had > done most, if not all, of the welding & tacking. Therefore, for me, > the boat already had a strike against it. Upon viewing the shell, > what put me off more than anything else, however, was the lack of > plate edge trimming/grinding/etc., the jagged scupper cut-outs, the > warpage of the hullsides above the keels, the skeg curvature, and so > on. Now you and I, and a lot of other members know what we're looking > at, but some do not. All in all, it is what it is; a project which > was stopped at an early stage and left in a field for a couple of > years. Perhaps, some of my value assessment is based on viewing the > boat that Manny is selling; a complete centre-keeler with a new > interior & some very nice joinery, for C$68,000. By the way, I > thought that to be a rather high price, so maybe I'm just cheap! > > In the past 2 weeks, I've looked into a 41' Folkes($44K), a 37' > Roberts($23K) and a 38' Roberts($38K). All boats are complete, all > are less than stellar. The truth is, I was so taken by Paul's 60 > footer(Jack Carson design) that I am torn between building a "Swain > 40" and a "Carson 50", which - if Jack is willing to draw the plans - > will incorporate everything which I'd like to have in a boat design. > This is one of the better dilemnas I have faced in my life. > > Thanks, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > It took me 2 years of holidays, weekends and evenings to get my > > 36'launched: no interior--no rig. I am a welder/fabricator. > $15,000 > > Canadian seems like a good price for a hull when you consider the > > cost of steel and skilled labour right now. My construction time > was > > longer because I designed and custom built a flush deck. Welding > the > > expanse of flush deck without distortion was a bit time consuming. > > If I were to do another flush deck it would take less time. I also > > took extra time to grind off all my corners, re-weld them with 316 > > stainless and fair them in again. Additional time was spent mating > a > > VW diesel to a Borg Warner gear and mounting the unit forward and > > down. At the end of the day, I could never have aquired a boat of > > this quality and size if I purchased an average boat in my price > > range. > > > > rt > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > Seer, all, > > > I wasn't singling anyone out, just suggesting that - as in other > > boat > > > related groups - members in this group do, at times, tend to talk > > in > > > terms of absolutes. > > > > > > Have you seen Alex's boat? I've tried to skirt the issue since I > > > returned from my Comox Valley trip. Based on visual inspection, > my > > > assessment of Alex's boat is not very positive. I would suggest > > that > > > the shell was put together well during construction(well, what > else > > > would one expect when Brent was the chief builder?). Sadly, the > > shell > > > has sat in a field for about 2 years, unfinished, uncovered & > > > unprotected. Most of the seams were left at the tacked phase, not > > > fully welded. Perhaps, because the hull was dragged across a > field > > > when the keels to hull joints were only tacked, there seems to be > > > warpage in the hull plates, in the localized area. All welded or > > > tacked areas are heavily oxidized, as are all plate edges which > > were > > > cut and/or ground. The people who were present when I viewed the > > > shell - including Jim, the owner of the property & a retired > > welder - > > > felt that my valuation of the hull, at C$7,000 , was about 2 > grand > > > too high. If the steel had been painted with a barrier coat of > > > primer, perhaps, it could have better survived 2 years of the > > > elements. The positive aspect of this shell is that it was the > > > subject of a dvd which, I believe, will be of immeasurable value > to > > > others and a source of compensation for Alex, making up for the > > > financial loss which he'll have to accept on the project itself. > > > > > > While working on Paul Liebenberg's 60' project, during this same > > > trip, I encouraged him to give newly welded areas a shot of > primer > > as > > > soon as the metal cooled. For those planning to build their first > > > steel boat, I highly recommend that they follow Paul's efforts to > > > protect his project - How about posting a few pictures of how it > > > should be done, Paul? - as, due to time constraints, he has been > > > working on his boat for about 5 years, yet has kept his shell > > fairly > > > dry, with minimal oxidation in most areas. > > > > > > Building a boat is only achieveable for those who can truly > > dedicate > > > themselves to the entire build, start to finish. I believe that > > Paul > > > has put as much effort into educating himself on the use of steel > > > fabricating equipment as he has on choosing the design of boat > and > > > constructing her to this point. A mostly self-taught > > > welder/machinist/mechanic/electrician/heavy equipment > > operator/etc., > > > He is truly a shipwright, in veterinarian's clothing. > > > Boy, did I get off topic! > > > Regards, > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > well, maybe I am fear mongering, or maybe i'm just saying that > > > given a > > > > chance, why not improve your chances? You can get a pretty > decent > > > > Brent made 36 hull right now for less than cost..Alex's boat. > Fit > > > her > > > > out and be up and running and sleeping well at anchor. There's > a > > > lot > > > > to say about peace of mind while on the sea. > > > > > > > > For me the choice is simple. My custom designed and built 54 > was > > > taken > > > > out alone once by my misguided father in his declining years. > His > > > > attention mis-directed for only a few seconds was enough to put > > him > > > > nose first nudging up against a stone jetty at maybe 3 knots. > In > > > just > > > > seconds It knocked a hole in that multi-laminated, heavily > > > reinforced > > > > bow big enough for me to nearly climb in and out of. > Fortunately > > > the > > > > designer, Stan Huntingford of MapleLeaf fame, was a firm > believer > > in > > > > water tight bulkheads on fibreglass ocean going yachts. No > issue > > > here > > > > as to why. > > > > > > > > I guess I should inquire as to who in this group has NEVER hit > > > > anything in a boat, or BEEN hit for that matter? got to be a > > small > > > > number for amongst the sailors I know, the correlation is very > > very > > > > high, like one to one for those who have left the dock :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > as for containers at sea, if you havn't been out there much yet, > > > > you're going to be amazed at how much crap is running around > out > > > there > > > > in the north pacific. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't agree more. When you think of all of the poorly > > > designed > > > > > and/or built boats that have/are sailing offshore, it makes > you > > > think > > > > > that some people fear-monger, needlessly. As for the > > containers, > > > > > there are many out there, however, there is also a lot of > > ocean. > > > As > > > > > my first sailing experience was the intercoastal area of > B.C., > > > the > > > > > fear was logs, not containers. I never even considered > > containers > > > on > > > > > my trips. When I worked with the coast guard, I heard a lot > of > > > > > reports of containers going overboard. fate is fate, if you > hit > > > > > something, so be it, if not, great. Besides, There are plenty > > of > > > > > other things to hit out there, as well. Currently, I'm trying > > to > > > > > decide between quitting my job, going north & developing my > > > property, > > > > > or buying a boat for weekends & staying for the rest of the > > > > > provincial ferry build. Either of the boats that I am > > considering > > > > > would be crucified in this group(41' Island Trader, 37' > Oday) - > > > or > > > > > any other dealing with sailing issues - still, they have > > certain > > > > > things going for them & I would take either offshore, if the > > > > > opportunity arose. Aside from the manner in which I make my > > > living, > > > > > the "origami" steel-hulled sailboat is attractive to me for > > it's > > > > > relative simplicity in construction. Add to that, that > > > fibreglass, > > > > > wood and aluminum are, for me, a pain in the butt to work > with. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't every material a compromise? Fiberglass absorbs > water. > > > Foam > > > > > > core delaminates. Coldmolded needs to be sealed. Carvel > kept > > in > > > the > > > > > > water to swell tight. Steel rusts etc. > > > > > > No matter the material extra effort in construction could > > > negate > > > > > the > > > > > > material weakness. Instead of looking at the problems in > our > > > choice > > > > > > of hull material we should study the steps that could be > > taken > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > initial stage of hull construction to reduce the chance of > > > fatal > > > > > > flooding. > > > > > > How many of us have built in truly watertight fore and aft > > > > > bulkheads? > > > > > > Separate compartments with big independent pumps? > > > > > > We all buy and install bilge pumps that have no hope of > > > keeping up > > > > > > with a hull fracture or hole. This last winter three boats > > sank > > > at > > > > > > the dock at Crescent Beach Marina. Inattention or poor > > upkeep. > > > Who > > > > > > knows. But obviously the pumps (or batteries) installed > > > couldn't > > > > > keep > > > > > > up with a fitting or hose leaking. > > > > > > You go on boats and always see these little "Rule" pumps. > > 500, > > > > > 1100, > > > > > > 2000 models. Inaccessable manual pumps. There are hundreds > of > > > > > > production boats out there with pumps that should be used > > only > > > in > > > > > > bait tanks. We should all be installing 4000 gph 2" hose > > pumps > > > with > > > > > > independent floats with the battery capacity to run them > > until > > > the > > > > > > flood is stemmed or slowed plus a large capacity manual > pump. > > > > > > I know with motorcyclists its not if they are going to > crash > > > but > > > > > > when. I don't know if that is true with sailboats but > > preparing > > > > > ahead > > > > > > to stay afloat after an impact is good insurance and will > > > reduce > > > > > the > > > > > > chance of sinking no matter what the material. > > > > > > Instead of all the extras we throw at our boats we should > > all > > > be > > > > > > thinking the basics first ie watertightness and floatation. > > My > > > > > > friend's boat (the Hotei) has water tight bulkheads fore > and > > > aft. > > > > > The > > > > > > huge steel doors in the bulkheads can be dogged down and > made > > > > > > watertight. They look like they are off a submarine. > Underway > > > the > > > > > > doors are closed effectively dividing the boat into three > > > > > > compartments. > > > > > > I plan some offshore trips and the only thing that worries > me > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > stories true or not of all of the containers rumoured to be > > > > > floating > > > > > > out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of steel boats has been holed in impacts, where > > > alloy > > > > > > boats have > > > > > > > > survived. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen this where the alloy boats where > > comparable. > > > The > > > > > > alloy > > > > > > > impacts i've seen have resulted in all sorts of cracks > and > > > > > > fractures, > > > > > > > where the steel tends to stretch and deform. In the case > > of > > > the > > > > > > > superyacht, the damage was really extensive. Everyone in > > the > > > > > > vicinity > > > > > > > seemed equally surprised at the result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For sailboats, weight is a cost. Unless you are > willing > > to > > > > > > sacrifice > > > > > > > > performance, every pound you add means bigger sails, > > bigger > > > > > > engines, > > > > > > > bigger > > > > > > > > tanks, taller mast, heavier rigging, bigger winches. > All > > > of > > > > > these > > > > > > > add more > > > > > > > > weight and plenty of cost, further compounding the > > problem, > > > as > > > > > you > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > make things bigger still, which adds more weight, more > > > cost, > > > > > etc, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deck weight and related stability and performance > issues > > > are a > > > > > > > problem in > > > > > > > > small steel boats. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of what you say above are reasons \i'm trying to find > a > > > way to > > > > > > > lower the weight LOL . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > solve. A vertical SS flange to take the house and > > cockpit > > > > > would > > > > > > go > > > > > > > a long > > > > > > > > way in preventing water from leaking in should the > seals > > > fail. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > allow for steel side decks, maintaining much of the > hull > > > > > strength > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > simplicity of construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a bad suggestion at all, I'll have to think > that > > > one > > > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've not seen a small boat that can't be entered by > > force. > > > An > > > > > axe > > > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > is usually sufficient. Destroy a boat? Knock out some > > > ports, > > > > > > pour in 5 > > > > > > > > gallons of gas and a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > true enough, the event just illustrated that a material > > that > > > can > > > > > be > > > > > > > worked easily with hand tools does not present the same > > > obstacles > > > > > as > > > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13577|13412|2007-06-04 14:42:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 06:15:57PM -0000, richytill wrote: > Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as > effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, the > bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden under > filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat and > no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient > penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure is > used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a small > boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? Personally - and I'm not trying to be a smartass here - I'd say that the preferable approach is to turn up the amperage and use the correct pattern (i.e., whip-and-pause.) There's really no substitute for good welding skills, particularly when your life is going to depend on them for years on end. I will say - having graduated from a welding course fairly recently and having been lucky enough to have an excellent instructor - that it's not the easiest thing in the world to learn; it's also not something you're likely to pick up quickly without somebody to show you and correct you for a while. But a welding course is dirt-cheap by comparison to a leaky boat - and it's a skill that will put money in your pocket and improve your life in other ways as well. Trying to build, or maintain, a steel boat without being at least a decent welder would be the definition of "beating your head against the wall". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13578|13412|2007-06-04 15:25:36|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|You're correct in that 6010/11 is the rod of choice when welding rusty, dirty and/or coated steel, that's why we use it a lot in repairing old marine vessels. Correct manipulation - coupled with correct amperage - of this rod, however, is essential to adequate penetration & fusion, as well as joint strength across the weld's width. Putting vertical welds aside for the moment, consider correct manipulation of the "whip & pause" method for flat, horizontal & overhead positions. With a rod angle of approx. 5 degrees from perpendicular(ergo, pushing the rod in the direction of travel), a proper whip is minimal, brought back almost - but not quite - to it's point of origin. heat(Amps) and period of pause determine how strong the resulting bond is and, therefore, are also crucial. When viewing steel sailboats under construction, I consistently noted "fishscales" an indication of incorrect manipulation. On Paul's boat, we decided to stitch lo-hi(7018) over the centre seam welds to add some strength. Truthfully, I would have prefered to have seen lo-hi used for the root pass, back-grinding the root, but I joined the build at too late a date. I have one other problem with 6010/11; when properly manipulated, it is too damn slow! When repairing cracks in skeg or hull seams on marine vessels, we normally run a root of 6011, then overpass with 7018. Maybe, RichyTill & Gary Lucas - as well as other members - have something to add or critique on this topic. However, we, as a group, have been around this bush many times, so, the thought of rejoining the discussion may be more than others can bear(lol). As Paul has probably found by now, 7018 is easy to lay in - as long as the heat is right - and is much quicker. By the same token, 6010/11 is much easier to use when filling large gaps, yet, I still usually lean toward lo-hi for it's inherent strength. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "echo6@..." wrote: > > >As you may recall, I am not a big fan of welding these boats with 6010/11 - > >though I use 6011 a lot at the drydock - because people who don't > >weld stick for a living, and even some who do, don't know how to > >manipulate it properly. > > Would you care to expound on this subject? I always thought 6011 was about the > simplest, easiest rod to run on all position non clean steel... > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net > | 13580|13412|2007-06-04 16:37:37|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I had thought 6013 was what was recommended. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as > effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, the > bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden under > filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat and > no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient > penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure is > used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a small > boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? > > rt > > | 13581|13581|2007-06-04 16:48:04|James Pronk|36 feet of steel plate|I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they can supply it. Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one these boats or where did you get it. Thank you for your time, James Pronk| 13582|13412|2007-06-04 16:58:56|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|RT I just wrote such a long response that yahoo asked for my password again, so I guess it's all gone...@#$%! Boy, that pisses me off! 6010/11 is just so frigging slow, great for filling holes & doing repairs on 50 year old barges, but I'd honestly prefer dualshield, and lo-hi when necessary. What are your thoughts on using HSLA steel, if dollars are not the determining factor in building a boat? Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as > effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, the > bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden under > filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat and > no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient > penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure is > used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a small > boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? > > rt > | 13583|13412|2007-06-04 17:07:21|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|seer 6013 is a low penetration rod. I use it when doing custom exhaust jobs on my stable of relics. As these boats seem to be usually built of 3/16" material, adequate penetration isn't hard to achieve with any rod. Still, it would definitely be my last choice with the SMAW process. Your topic brings me to another thought, however. I saw a fair bit of downhand stick welding, below the waterline, on some boats being built. Yeah, it looks nice, but forget about it being a quality weld. "uphand-good, downhand-bad!" Better to leave downhand to the sheetmetal artists. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I had thought 6013 was what was recommended. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as > > effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, the > > bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden under > > filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat and > > no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient > > penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure is > > used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a small > > boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? > > > > rt > > > > > > | 13584|13566|2007-06-04 17:33:29|Mike|Re: Using 6011|Hi, Jonathan, E6010/11(E41010/E41011)(fast-freeze) are not the same as 6013(E41013) (fill-freeze). The 6013 is a shallow penetration rod, best kept for sheet metal welding. I have trouble understanding how you can get one type of rod, but not the other. As I only use 6013 on car/truck exhaust components, I haven't had experience with using it on 3/16" plate. you'd certainly want to back-grind your roots before welding the other side, then again, I'd do that with any rod or wire when welding seams below the waterline. Whatever you do, don't downhand weld your verticals. It looks good, but isn't worth crap. Can you get E7018 (E48018)? It has a greater tensile strength, deeper penetration & higher deposition rate. People are normally scared off by the price, but if you run a bead with each type of rod & consider the above- mentioned tensile & penetration differences, you'll find that it isn't costing you more for better quality weldments. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same rod. I'd > be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13585|13189|2007-06-04 17:33:46|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Racism, religion, Canadian Criminal Law etc etc etc|Yes Greg, I notice whenever your are not around, discussions tend to be calm and civilized even when off topic. However as soon as you appear, things seem to go off the rails. It's not that I mind to much, it all keeps me hugely entertained but in all honesty, I actually read this list because of my interest in boat building. Not for small minded entertainment. Regards, Paul Thompson PS. It would be nice if you could follow the etiquette rules And trim the excess and none relevant quotes from your posts. ge@... wrote: > If you search the history of this site you will find that the group repeats > itself fairly consistently with tons of off-topic postings, on about a 2 > year cycle. Same topics, same techniques, same arguments, over and over. > > Why? New ideas get shouted down with abusive postings. This leads to > further postings, seeking to excuse the abuse, to limit the debate, until > the new ideas die. The group then returns to repeating itself. > > Greg | 13586|13566|2007-06-04 18:37:54|Carl Volkwein|Re: Using 6011|Mike, this isn't quite the same thing, and could be considered "off topic'', but when i worked in a fabricating shop many years ago, we had 6013 for general welding, and 7014 for more structual heavy welds, now what's the deal welding plain steel with 7014s,I thought they were for high strength steel, but that's not what we used them for, but it seemed to work.carlvolkwein@... Mike wrote: Hi, Jonathan, E6010/11(E41010/E41011)(fast-freeze) are not the same as 6013(E41013) (fill-freeze). The 6013 is a shallow penetration rod, best kept for sheet metal welding. I have trouble understanding how you can get one type of rod, but not the other. As I only use 6013 on car/truck exhaust components, I haven't had experience with using it on 3/16" plate. you'd certainly want to back-grind your roots before welding the other side, then again, I'd do that with any rod or wire when welding seams below the waterline. Whatever you do, don't downhand weld your verticals. It looks good, but isn't worth crap. Can you get E7018 (E48018)? It has a greater tensile strength, deeper penetration & higher deposition rate. People are normally scared off by the price, but if you run a bead with each type of rod & consider the above- mentioned tensile & penetration differences, you'll find that it isn't costing you more for better quality weldments. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same rod. I'd > be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13587|13587|2007-06-04 19:18:02|seeratlas|Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle?|2 years ago I brought up the subject of Kort nozzles. Not to summarize the discussion, but the consensus seemed to be too much drag for a sailboat. Brent had previously brought up the idea of a home made folding prop which he had designed which he stated was relatively easy to make. Now, everyone with any knowledge please feel free to dive in, but... why can't I use a folding prop inside of a kort nozzle in order to accomplish the following: 1. a Properly designed folder can be very efficient for propulsion ergo, if I fit one inside of a matched Kort...I could gain a lot of forward power efficiency , some say on the order of 30 percent.. This would be very good on an electric motor powered boat. 2. The single biggest criticism of Kort nozzles is the drag they create when sailing...BUT, wouldn't a folder alleviate a great deal of that? I think if properly sized and fitted, it would..plus we're talking 7 or 8 knots cruise here, not 30. Wouldn't it be much like pulling an open ended bucket thru the water, especially with the prop folded up in the center? 3. I would think the kort would also contribute to efficiency of the folder in reverse...offsetting some of the losses that would otherwise occur but since I'll have gobs of power available for manuevering at low speed do to the electrics, i'm not sweating that much. 4. Lastly, with my regen capability on the diesel-electric design, my understanding is that folders can be used to spin the shaft if they are first brought up to 5 or 6 knots or so which would be the point at which you would even sweat regen anyway..add the nozzle and my regen would be, i think, more efficient, and if you have the wind to spare, any regen is good regen :) lol. 5. Having a Kort would enable a different shaped and sized aperature n the skeg, most likely increasing prop efficiency even more. 6. Would offer additional protection to the prop, especially with some thin 'runners' going forward to the skeg, a kind of screen for trash etc. 7. I think it would also lessen cavitation in a seaway, especially on the twin keeled hull of draft shallow enough for the canals, where it might REALLY protect the prop... Ok, fire away. What am I missing here? And don't sweat cost, since the whole thing would be welded up in stainless, as presumably would be the prop, shaft, etc., and not purchased. Again, Brent has stated he has designed and built such a folder and its not that hard to do. As I understand it, the Kort/Rice nozzles are essentially hydrofoils bent into a circle around the prop., a venturi if you will. Should be specs aplenty out there much like the naca foils info to at least get me started. thanks in advance seer| 13588|13412|2007-06-04 19:32:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, reconditioned engine, g/ box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 minutes from my place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed for a refit then the owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust anywhere in the interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the WL it needs some work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than I want, otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in finishing it, one obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat profit, thereby funding the cruising kitty some more. Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely to be less than the material cost to date. That's just how things are. PDW| 13589|13581|2007-06-04 20:39:39|Aaron Williams|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|James I just got 2 8X40 from SeaPort Steel In Seatle, Washington Cost was close to $2,000 US each. Aaron James Pronk wrote: I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they can supply it. Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one these boats or where did you get it. Thank you for your time, James Pronk --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13590|13540|2007-06-04 21:14:30|Peter Muth|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Seer, I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective solution. While designing and using similar systems (though not on a sailboat), I have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not living up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the batteries have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be less than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top of it). In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the depth (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), and the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries that are designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well constructed boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) Such batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, last time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep-cycle marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms to help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you do/have, I would be interested to hear your experience :) BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the matching between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you considering doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just wondering :) Good Luck Peter seeratlas wrote: > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13591|13540|2007-06-04 21:40:48|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|One problem with electric boats is batteries last longer when in use and being cycled like in a car where they are used everyday and kept charged. In a electric boat they are comenly used less and cycled deeper both shorten there life. This is one reason a hybred system like IC/Electric works better it allows for a better charge discharg cycle. A corts with folding props would have little drag but folded need sosative from the output side to open so would work porly for regen. In most cases unless a prop is large and high pich it works poorly for regen giving back slowly. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter Muth wrote: > > Seer, > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective solution. > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a sailboat), I > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not living > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the batteries > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be less > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top of it). > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the depth > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), and > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries that are > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well constructed > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) Such > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, last > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep- cycle > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms to > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you do/have, > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the matching > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you considering > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > wondering :) > > Good Luck > Peter > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13592|13587|2007-06-04 21:48:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle?|On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 11:17:51PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > 2 years ago I brought up the subject of Kort nozzles. Not to summarize > the discussion, but the consensus seemed to be too much drag for a > sailboat. Brent had previously brought up the idea of a home made > folding prop which he had designed which he stated was relatively easy > to make. > > Now, everyone with any knowledge please feel free to dive in, but... Heh. "Any" knowledge is just barely enough to qualify me in this area; I know a tiny bit about it from what I've researched when I was looking at boat design options of that sort myself. But I'll give it a shot; hopefully, this will be of some use. > why can't I use a folding prop inside of a kort nozzle in order to > accomplish the following: > > 1. a Properly designed folder can be very efficient for propulsion > ergo, if I fit one inside of a matched Kort...I could gain a lot of > forward power efficiency , some say on the order of 30 percent.. This > would be very good on an electric motor powered boat. Hmm... I'd vet those figures very carefully before believing them. If you could get a gain of 30% efficiency, *believe* that people - cigarette racers and such - would be on top of it before you could blink. Those guys are spending millions on a 1% gain, and are damn happy with that - since, /ceteris paribus/, it would let them come in first by a full boat length in a mile-long race. As I understand it, Korts give you a high gain in efficiency in a _static_ pull - i.e., at 0kt (sort of like a steam engine's max torque) - and you lose all advantage at ~10kt due to the drag. 7-8 is already most of the way there, and although I don't believe that the progression is linear, it's close enough to the top that you should examine that ratio carefully. > 2. The single biggest criticism of Kort nozzles is the drag they > create when sailing...BUT, wouldn't a folder alleviate a great deal of > that? I think if properly sized and fitted, it would..plus we're > talking 7 or 8 knots cruise here, not 30. Wouldn't it be much like > pulling an open ended bucket thru the water, especially with the prop > folded up in the center? Not really - since you have a restricted channel for the disturbed water. The friction effects would still be high. The question is, would you gain more than you lost in the long run? If, as you say, you've done a lot of cruising, then you know what percentage of the time you spend under sail vs. under power (and can tweak the figures to account for changes in your new boat type - and perhaps your preferences in regard to that ratio due to your increasing age. :) Figure the loss x sailing time vs. the gain x engine time, and you've got a number that you can play with. Without it, you don't have much in a way of a basis for a rational decision. > 6. Would offer additional protection to the prop, especially with some > thin 'runners' going forward to the skeg, a kind of screen for trash etc. Are you sure about that? What happens if you run into something? A fixed prop (and some folders) can just be pulled, banged back into an approximate shape with a hammer, and used (at a lowered efficiency) until you get to a prop shop or are able to take more time to do it right. A damaged Kort enclosure (given the tight clearance around the prop) would hose you well and truly until you could get to some major resources - at least until you could haul the boat. > Ok, fire away. What am I missing here? And don't sweat cost, since the > whole thing would be welded up in stainless, as presumably would be > the prop, shaft, etc., and not purchased. Why not skip the whole problem and use a really BIG fixed prop attached to a retractable leg in a well? You could raise it for sailing, thus eliminating the drag, and get _really_ efficient coupling to the water for both driving and making power. You sure wouldn't have to wait for 6kt or whatever to start; a big slow wheel will spin way before that. > Again, Brent has stated he > has designed and built such a folder and its not that hard to do. As I > understand it, the Kort/Rice nozzles are essentially hydrofoils bent > into a circle around the prop., a venturi if you will. Well, sorta. Very sorta. :) A venturi would need to be a lot longer and have a much slower taper than a Kort nozzle to avoid huge friction losses. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13593|13566|2007-06-04 22:32:56|Mike|Re: Using 6011|Carl, 7014 is like 6012 & 6013, in that it has a rutile coating. Unlike the other two, 7014 has iron powder and, therefore, a higher deposition rate. As I don't usually weld with 7014, I dug out one of my older welding books which states(In a comparison to 6012/13), "With the higher rate of deposition due to the use of iron powder in the coating, the E7014 electrode is useful for high speed work on medium thick plate and for prefabrication of structural work." I guess that pretty much says it all. Mike| 13594|13594|2007-06-04 22:42:01|Tom|6011|Let me say 6011 is a good general rod for any mild steel under about an A-45 grade, ubove that then the 7018 comes in . 6011 welds a heck of a lot faster than 7018 . 7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. I weld primarily with 6011 in the feild and I dont use any whip and pause methed just streight welding and I allso weld vetical down on everything when using 6011 , pipe , plate , and sheet metal and yes I can do it stronger than vertical up have tested work several times. 6013 is ok but to slow for me and a lot more fussy, every thing has to be just right or you get slag entrapment in the welds but it does make a pretty weld compared to 6011. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13595|13189|2007-06-05 00:30:31|Gordon Schnell|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Greg For the last time.....get off this thread or get off this site. Gord ge@... wrote: > > > Some people that are white have committed crimes as you describe. However, > the vast majority of the "white" people on earth have never done any > of the > things you have listed below. I personally don't know any "whites" that > have. Millions of "whites" have fought and died to prevent the crimes you > talk about and many in this group have likely lost "white" ancestors who > fought to prevent these crimes. > > If a "red" man steals from me, does this mean that all "red" men are > thieves? Only by the faulty logic of racism. When you judge all white men > guilty for the crimes of some who happened to be white, you are judging a > man by the color of his skin. This is racism. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:40 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or > Fiberglass > Boats Pricing > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > I personally don't know any "whites" that support killing anyone > > or seizing their land. > > > > > > Greg, > There is this place called the "Mid-East"...go there. Meet some, all > sides. > > There is this place called 'Moscow", little bitty town, great big > empire..for a while :)go there, meet some. > > Try Rome, London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Amsterdam, Bergen, oh, and > don't forget Madrid... > closer to home you might try Toronto, or Washington.. > > I'd say go talk to an irish, but one has already posted. > > You must have been sailing a lot, you seem to missed out on almost the > entirety of western 'christian' civilization. What was it Mark Twain > said so eloquently.. > > "why those christians have made a graveyard of the globe.... > in the name of 'brotherly love'." > > seer > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13596|13540|2007-06-05 01:17:08|Peter Muth|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Yes, very true... lead acid doesn't like to be fully discharged, and and can have dramatically reduced capacity after only a few deep discharges. (which can then have effectively eaten thousands of dollars worth of lead acid batteries.) Success should be achievable though... A few important things accounted for, and the system should serve for a long period of time, and at reasonable cost: - a "float" charger (which uses a lead-acid specific charge-maintenance algorithm) will avoid the need for the frequent cycles (this can be run from the solar array when at anchor), and allow battery use as little as once every three months to be acceptable, in a typical case. - a careful system design (to avoid deep discharges, while having adequate power reserves, and allow reasonable diesel/sail usage/cycle times, while maintaining high charge levels in general) - use of appropriate (long-lifespan) parts... (e.g. batteries, prop, etc) and all should be well. A variable pitch prop (and a large one, as Ben mentioned in his Kort Nozzle discussion), coupled with a solid state prop/generator/charger optimizer should make a world of difference with regard to charge efficiency, and minimizing total vehicle drag (not to mention being capable of feathering when low drag and no-charging is the goal.) It would do this by adjusting (continuously, and automatically) the prop's pitch, to allow the boat/prop/generator system to operate at peak total system efficiency, while limiting vehicle drag to an appropriate (selectable) level. Alternatively, this could all be done manually (by adjusting some knobs), using a pre-calculated efficiency table that could be produced in excel, (based on sea-trials data), or as another option, just by setting up a few amp/voltage meters and reading them to aid adjusting everything while sailing. An automatic prop/generator/battery total-system optimizer may be a bit expensive (*possibly* requiring custom electronics, and/or software), but would reduce the manual adjustments to almost nil. The manual system on the other hand, would be at least a couple of knobs to fiddle with, (e.g. prop pitch, and transformer ratio, maybe more) but a person would get a feel for how to adjust it over time, and wouldn't have a problem dialing in a near-optimal group of settings for various conditions, though every time conditions changed, the settings would have to be adjusted somewhat - but then, that isn't the only thing that gets adjusted every time conditions change :) Peter Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > One problem with electric boats is batteries last longer when in use > and being cycled like in a car where they are used everyday and kept > charged. In a electric boat they are comenly used less and cycled > deeper both shorten there life. This is one reason a hybred system > like IC/Electric works better it allows for a better charge discharg > cycle. > A corts with folding props would have little drag but folded need > sosative from the output side to open so would work porly for regen. > In most cases unless a prop is large and high pich it works poorly > for regen giving back slowly. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Peter Muth > wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective > solution. > > > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a > sailboat), I > > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not > living > > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the > batteries > > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be > less > > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top > of it). > > > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the > depth > > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), > and > > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries > that are > > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well > constructed > > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) > Such > > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, > last > > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep- > cycle > > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms > to > > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you > do/have, > > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the > matching > > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you > considering > > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > > wondering :) > > > > Good Luck > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from > the > > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look > like > > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're > raping > > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its > the > > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few > hours. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13597|13540|2007-06-05 01:37:35|seeratlas|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|As I understand it, as with any source of power, you want to match your prop pitch such that adding in the expected 'slip' you get to just about your calculated hull speed at a reasonable rpm. The Asmo like system is quite versatile in this regard given the ability to swap pulleys and belts. I was going to use the belt off the big motorcycle belt drives :) They handle far more torque and hp than my boat will have, are mass produced, non "marine" thus not so pricey:) Variable pitch props are darned expensive, and i'm not so sure that with a full torque at any rpm DC motor driven system, that they are necessary. The solid state electronics in the controller handle the regen. As I understand it, you put the lever into forward sending so much juice into the motor to turn the prop. If the water is turning it faster than the amount of power would, it 'overturns' the prop making it a generator instead of a motor. The excess juice is routed back into the battery bank. These electronics are now so good that you can use drive power going up the backside of a wave and regen sliding down the front side, with no attention to the situation on your part. Back to prop choice, I need to gear the electrics so that I get the hp i want at the right voltage and rpm so when I get down to brass tacks, I'll be "close" and can swap things around till i'm happy, things being the pulley ratios. As for batteries, since I'll have the diesel genset ready to pop in and can pretty much set it to come on at any discharge level I want; I'm planning for around 50 percent DOD instead of the more often calculated 80 percent so often cited on purely battery driven boats. No reason to over stress the packs when the genset is sitting there. At that discharge rate, and using the heavy solid lead plate industrial batts, I *could* get close to ten years out of a full set. I'm not familiar with your 25 year bats but I'll look into that :) Bat maintenance shouldn't be a problem since once the boat is done, I'll pretty much be on it or near it till one of us gives out :) except of course for periodic side trips which shouldn't be long enough to cause problems. I'm told that with the heavy plate batteries, trickle charging is the way to maintain battery 'virility' as it were :) without burning them up thru overcharging. With my intended selection of solar panels, that should be no problem. I'm planning them in a grid so that I can use them together, or one alone to adjust from trickle, to soaking up as much as I can given the physical limitations of the rationally usable surface area. Another helpful development regarding bat maintenance is this hydro caps which trap the gaseous hydrogen and oxygen given off while charging and turn it back into water and return to the battery. That will help a lot. Also, as you point out, i really need a pretty sophisticated charger matched to the battery bank characteristics. Fortunately, the newer solid state models keep improving, and falling in price :) Oversize wiring and cabling, careful monitoring of the battery state of charge, and making sure everything is tied down, and that electrical connections are solid, and sealed against humidity etc. will go a long way towards the peace of mind I hope the system allows me to achieve. DC motor life, is very long if kept dry. The motors I'm looking at require brush inspection about every 4000 hours and replacement is dead simple, heck if you ran 24/7 that would be about once every six months or so...and I can guarantee that they won't get that kind of workout :) not with the sail area my rig will carry LOL. All of the electrical equipment on board will be chosen according to metallury and suitability for a marine existence, then will be dismantled, 'marinized' and re-assembled prior to installation. I plan on using mostly consumer items, but quality ones, that can be used till worn out and simply replaced. DC to DC and DC to AC transformers will give me a whole host of voltages to fool with if I want so it won't matter much If i need to replace a hot plate in Bangkok or London. Now before everyone starts chewing my backside for so many 'goodies' on board, let me just say, to each his own :) Brent may be the kind of guy who can just plop down on the dock, pull up an armful of snow to use as a pillow and crash out hehehehe, but man I'm too old for that stuff:) They say that denying yourself things you really want builds character. Well I'll tell you something, In the name of doing things that needed doing, I've denied myself plenty; and at this point I figure I have all the 'character' I need sooo...its time to get out the toys !!!!! LOL :) The falcon was full electric and I had only a handful of problems in the years I had her, and those problems are being dealt with in the new boat. I had an engine driven freezer that would turn 40 lb salmon into a baseball bat like weapon in just a few minutes:)big insulation on a built in ice box is easy during construction and if you don't do it that way, you'll regret it. Brent doesn't drink, but I'll tell you, watching a tropical sunset with someone worth sharing it with, with a cold libation of your choosing, it just doesn't get much better than that :) Let me tell you, when it gets good and hot, "ICE IS NICE!!!" Remember, my boat is a little larger than Brent's 40 and most of the time I'll be the only one on board..so with the dc motors being so small, and the genset being smaller than the normal aux and capable of being mounted in any numbr of locations, I have a lot more room. If you take a look at the 44 and 39 Nauticat's and figure somewhere in between you'll have an idea. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter Muth wrote: > > Seer, > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective solution. > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a sailboat), I > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not living > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the batteries > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be less > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top of it). > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the depth > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), and > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries that are > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well constructed > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) Such > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, last > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep-cycle > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms to > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you do/have, > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the matching > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you considering > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > wondering :) > > Good Luck > Peter > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few hours. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13598|13540|2007-06-05 01:43:43|seeratlas|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Both asmo and solomon claim to be able to get regen from a folding prop. I tend to believe the asmo guys but am doing a lot of checking around.If it doesn't work, there are other options :) I was already planning on a slow turning high pitch prop given the flexibility of rpm the DC motors and gearing provide. I just commented on avoiding the 80 percent depth of discharge and trying to stay at 50 percent or better. :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > One problem with electric boats is batteries last longer when in use > and being cycled like in a car where they are used everyday and kept > charged. In a electric boat they are comenly used less and cycled > deeper both shorten there life. This is one reason a hybred system > like IC/Electric works better it allows for a better charge discharg > cycle. > A corts with folding props would have little drag but folded need > sosative from the output side to open so would work porly for regen. > In most cases unless a prop is large and high pich it works poorly > for regen giving back slowly. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter Muth > wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective > solution. > > > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a > sailboat), I > > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not > living > > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the > batteries > > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be > less > > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top > of it). > > > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the > depth > > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), > and > > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries > that are > > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well > constructed > > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) > Such > > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, > last > > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep- > cycle > > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms > to > > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you > do/have, > > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the > matching > > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you > considering > > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > > wondering :) > > > > Good Luck > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from > the > > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look > like > > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're > raping > > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its > the > > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few > hours. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 13599|13587|2007-06-05 02:09:58|seeratlas|Re: Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle?|I think a high surface area bladed twin folder would open up pretty quickly due to the amount of rotating mass. I had a self-feathering 3 blade on the Falcon and it reversed etc. pretty quickly. Expensive as hell tho. ASMO claims to be able to get regen off a folder. Regarding the figures, at one site comparing the rice nozzles to the kort and open props, they were citing 40 percent improvement in thrust and showing substantial improvements in overall boat speed in the ten knot range. hell I'd be happy with ten or 15 percent improvement. At moving towards 5 dollars a gallon in a lot of places, that would add up. As you point out, these nozzles were developed for tugs which move around a lot faster than my sailboat will, so I suspect I'm in a good speed range for their effect. as for big propellers, i'm kind of limited as to diameter because of the necessity for staying under 6' for draft. I'd b happier at 5'6" which given all that's going on down there, doesn't leave room to really turn a big prop. Turning a smaller one with greater efficiency thus becomes attractive. Between the skeg in front, stainless 'strain' rails running in a cone back to the nozzle, I would think that the prop would be more secure than just 'hanging out there" :) Assuming the nozzle is strong enough, and the one I envision would be something along the lines of a an automobile stainless wheel with the center cut out, then I think I'd be improving the situation and not diminishing it. Further, I think if i were to build a prop to Brent's design, I'd just carry replacement blades and design so that a really hard impact just carries the blade away. With the twin keel/skeg design and any reasonable tide, its not necessary to haul, just find a suitable shoreline. And if out in the deep blue, well, it wouldn't be the first time I've gone overboard to service a prop in the middle of the ocean LOL, and this time I'd be a lot closer to the surface LOL. As for the friction of a folder inside a kort, I don't see anyway it could be worse than a 3 or 4 blade fixxed, and likely to be a heck of a lot better wouldn't you think? And remember, a well designed nozzle isn't just a surface to prevent bleeding off the tip...it is a circular wing that creates lift which in a circle translates to thrust=in this case means thrust as water flows thru it. Look at the hell for strong mounts these things are built with. Why? because they develope thrust themselves, forget the prop, and that thrust is transmitted directly to the hull thru the mount. I don't even think they'd be that hard to weld up once you decided on a suitable foil shape. Anyway, i'll keep researchin :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 11:17:51PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > 2 years ago I brought up the subject of Kort nozzles. Not to summarize > > the discussion, but the consensus seemed to be too much drag for a > > sailboat. Brent had previously brought up the idea of a home made > > folding prop which he had designed which he stated was relatively easy > > to make. > > > > Now, everyone with any knowledge please feel free to dive in, but... > > Heh. "Any" knowledge is just barely enough to qualify me in this area; I > know a tiny bit about it from what I've researched when I was looking at > boat design options of that sort myself. But I'll give it a shot; > hopefully, this will be of some use. > > > why can't I use a folding prop inside of a kort nozzle in order to > > accomplish the following: > > > > 1. a Properly designed folder can be very efficient for propulsion > > ergo, if I fit one inside of a matched Kort...I could gain a lot of > > forward power efficiency , some say on the order of 30 percent.. This > > would be very good on an electric motor powered boat. > > Hmm... I'd vet those figures very carefully before believing them. If > you could get a gain of 30% efficiency, *believe* that people - > cigarette racers and such - would be on top of it before you could > blink. Those guys are spending millions on a 1% gain, and are damn happy > with that - since, /ceteris paribus/, it would let them come in first by > a full boat length in a mile-long race. > > As I understand it, Korts give you a high gain in efficiency in a > _static_ pull - i.e., at 0kt (sort of like a steam engine's max torque) > - and you lose all advantage at ~10kt due to the drag. 7-8 is already > most of the way there, and although I don't believe that the progression > is linear, it's close enough to the top that you should examine that > ratio carefully. > > > 2. The single biggest criticism of Kort nozzles is the drag they > > create when sailing...BUT, wouldn't a folder alleviate a great deal of > > that? I think if properly sized and fitted, it would..plus we're > > talking 7 or 8 knots cruise here, not 30. Wouldn't it be much like > > pulling an open ended bucket thru the water, especially with the prop > > folded up in the center? > > Not really - since you have a restricted channel for the disturbed > water. The friction effects would still be high. The question is, would > you gain more than you lost in the long run? If, as you say, you've done > a lot of cruising, then you know what percentage of the time you spend > under sail vs. under power (and can tweak the figures to account for > changes in your new boat type - and perhaps your preferences in regard > to that ratio due to your increasing age. :) Figure the loss x sailing > time vs. the gain x engine time, and you've got a number that you can > play with. Without it, you don't have much in a way of a basis for a > rational decision. > > > 6. Would offer additional protection to the prop, especially with some > > thin 'runners' going forward to the skeg, a kind of screen for trash etc. > > Are you sure about that? What happens if you run into something? A fixed > prop (and some folders) can just be pulled, banged back into an > approximate shape with a hammer, and used (at a lowered efficiency) > until you get to a prop shop or are able to take more time to do it > right. A damaged Kort enclosure (given the tight clearance around the > prop) would hose you well and truly until you could get to some major > resources - at least until you could haul the boat. > > > Ok, fire away. What am I missing here? And don't sweat cost, since the > > whole thing would be welded up in stainless, as presumably would be > > the prop, shaft, etc., and not purchased. > > Why not skip the whole problem and use a really BIG fixed prop attached > to a retractable leg in a well? You could raise it for sailing, thus > eliminating the drag, and get _really_ efficient coupling to the water > for both driving and making power. You sure wouldn't have to wait for > 6kt or whatever to start; a big slow wheel will spin way before that. > > > Again, Brent has stated he > > has designed and built such a folder and its not that hard to do. As I > > understand it, the Kort/Rice nozzles are essentially hydrofoils bent > > into a circle around the prop., a venturi if you will. > > Well, sorta. Very sorta. :) A venturi would need to be a lot longer and > have a much slower taper than a Kort nozzle to avoid huge friction > losses. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13600|13540|2007-06-05 02:13:24|seeratlas|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Ok, I'm going to keep reading this over and over till I 'get' all you've laid out :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter Muth wrote: > > Yes, very true... lead acid doesn't like to be fully discharged, and and > can have dramatically reduced capacity after only a few deep discharges. > (which can then have effectively eaten thousands of dollars worth of > lead acid batteries.) > Success should be achievable though... > A few important things accounted for, and the system should serve for a > long period of time, and at reasonable cost: > - a "float" charger (which uses a lead-acid specific charge-maintenance > algorithm) will avoid the need for the frequent cycles (this can be run > from the solar array when at anchor), and allow battery use as little as > once every three months to be acceptable, in a typical case. > - a careful system design (to avoid deep discharges, while having > adequate power reserves, and allow reasonable diesel/sail usage/cycle > times, while maintaining high charge levels in general) > - use of appropriate (long-lifespan) parts... (e.g. batteries, prop, etc) > and all should be well. > A variable pitch prop (and a large one, as Ben mentioned in his Kort > Nozzle discussion), coupled with a solid state prop/generator/charger > optimizer should make a world of difference with regard to charge > efficiency, and minimizing total vehicle drag (not to mention being > capable of feathering when low drag and no-charging is the goal.) It > would do this by adjusting (continuously, and automatically) the prop's > pitch, to allow the boat/prop/generator system to operate at peak total > system efficiency, while limiting vehicle drag to an appropriate > (selectable) level. Alternatively, this could all be done manually (by > adjusting some knobs), using a pre-calculated efficiency table that > could be produced in excel, (based on sea-trials data), or as another > option, just by setting up a few amp/voltage meters and reading them to > aid adjusting everything while sailing. An automatic > prop/generator/battery total-system optimizer may be a bit expensive > (*possibly* requiring custom electronics, and/or software), but would > reduce the manual adjustments to almost nil. The manual system on the > other hand, would be at least a couple of knobs to fiddle with, (e.g. > prop pitch, and transformer ratio, maybe more) but a person would get a > feel for how to adjust it over time, and wouldn't have a problem dialing > in a near-optimal group of settings for various conditions, though every > time conditions changed, the settings would have to be adjusted somewhat > - but then, that isn't the only thing that gets adjusted every time > conditions change :) > > Peter > > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > One problem with electric boats is batteries last longer when in use > > and being cycled like in a car where they are used everyday and kept > > charged. In a electric boat they are comenly used less and cycled > > deeper both shorten there life. This is one reason a hybred system > > like IC/Electric works better it allows for a better charge discharg > > cycle. > > A corts with folding props would have little drag but folded need > > sosative from the output side to open so would work porly for regen. > > In most cases unless a prop is large and high pich it works poorly > > for regen giving back slowly. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Peter Muth > > wrote: > > > > > > Seer, > > > > > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective > > solution. > > > > > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a > > sailboat), I > > > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not > > living > > > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the > > batteries > > > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be > > less > > > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > > > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > > > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top > > of it). > > > > > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the > > depth > > > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), > > and > > > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries > > that are > > > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well > > constructed > > > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) > > Such > > > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > > > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, > > last > > > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep- > > cycle > > > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > > > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms > > to > > > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > > > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > > > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you > > do/have, > > > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > > > > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the > > matching > > > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > > > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you > > considering > > > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > > > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > > > wondering :) > > > > > > Good Luck > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from > > the > > > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look > > like > > > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're > > raping > > > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its > > the > > > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few > > hours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13601|13566|2007-06-06 11:59:00|sae140|Re: Using 6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > The 6013 is a shallow penetration rod, best kept for > sheet metal welding. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" > wrote: > > > > I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same > rod. I'd > > be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. > > > > Jonathan. I weld with whatever I've got - which at the moment means 316L for underwater s/s, 2205 for anything s/s above the w/l, and 6013 for ALL mild steel work - 'cause that's what I happen to have stocks of. (BTW - the s/s rods are all out-dated ex-oilrig stocks, still vacuum sealed, and you can buy 'em dirt cheap after they've been condemned) "6013 is a shallow penetration rod, best kept for sheet metal welding." Yup - and building an origami boat IS sheet metal welding. From a welding point-of-view, boat hulls are simply awkwardly shaped water tanks, nothing more. And what exactly is meant by "shallow penetration" ? A couple of mm is all you need, so welding 5mm plate from each side with 3.2mm rods is par for the course. If you need to weld really thick material, then don't be lazy - prep the edges and multi-pass. Colleges around here teach 'stick welding 101' with 6013's and chunks of 10mm plate - from day 1. For root passes on fillet welds, I use the next size smaller rod and turn the current up a tad. Agreed, slag inclusion CAN be a problem if you're not careful (so be careful ....), and I certainly wouldn't use 6013's for demanding applications - but boatbuilding with mild steel sheet and angle-iron is really not demanding. There's a good reason 6013 rods are often called "Farmer's Rods": farmers need to be able to weld something back together again (often dirty steel) urgently and VERY strongly, and only every now and again - maybe once a year or so. They don't have time to practice or otherwise 'get their hand in' again .... So the 6013 rod is ideal - it's forgiving and predictable. Also - in practice there's really no such thing a "a 6013 rod" : even though the number is the same, they come in various guises. When buying 6013's - check the flux coating. BTW - rutile is a type of sand, found in Oz I believe - which melts to form the glass-like slag - so the type and amount of rutile used in manufacture is important. Some 6013's have a thick white rutile coating (Lincoln Easyweld, Oerlikon Fincord (Heavy Coating)), whereas many others (Oerlikon Fincord M, Hilco Red Extra, etc) have a much thinner grey coating. For beginners, or for anyone not welding regularly, I'd recommend the thick white coatings for successful welds - certainly for flat or horizontal position welding - as you can practically rest 'em on the work-piece and slowly drag 'em along - the thick coating helps to ensure that the arc-gap is more-or-less held constant. If ever in doubt about penetration - subject a test-piece to Brent's well-known 'big hammer' test. If you can't bust it - then it's welded. Colin| 13602|13587|2007-06-06 11:59:24|audeojude|Re: Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle?|keep it simple.. The less holes through your hull the better. Going electric gives you the opportunity to put the electric motor in a pod and run it on a rail system on the transom.. In the water when you want it and out of the water when you don't want drag.. no prop shaft through the hull at all. The other option is one of the re-e-power fixed pods under the hull.. they have models going well past the power ranges your talking about I believe and they are selling them with multi year submerged warranties.. regenerative capability's your choice of props etc.. Just a thought but the less holes in a boat below the water line the better and electric opens up a lot of possibiliteis. scott > Why not skip the whole problem and use a really BIG fixed prop attached > to a retractable leg in a well? You could raise it for sailing, thus > eliminating the drag, and get _really_ efficient coupling to the water > for both driving and making power. You sure wouldn't have to wait for > 6kt or whatever to start; a big slow wheel will spin way before that. | 13603|13587|2007-06-06 11:59:40|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle?|I don't even think they'd be that hard to weld up once you decided on a suitable foil shape. seer I have the profile for a Marin Nozzle No. 37 Kort Nozzle on the bottom of this page: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/thrusters.html I would like to know your ideas for welding this.? I was more inclined to cast it from resin. Re: Belt drive and RPM.? Just an idea, but they make inexpensive quick change gear sets for sprint cars so that the drive ratio to the axle can easily be changed to match engine rpm to the track conditions.? You might like that approach instead of having to replace pulleys in order to tune in your prop.? I used them in my gear box, but I used 2 sets of the larger gear sets intended for stock cars. Here is my; yet un-tested experiments with a speed converter: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/engine_drive.html#Speed%20Converter Good luck to ya Doug J Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 1:09 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Folding Prop w Kort /Rice Nozzle? I think a high surface area bladed twin folder would open up pretty quickly due to the amount of rotating mass. I had a self-feathering 3 blade on the Falcon and it reversed etc. pretty quickly. Expensive as hell tho. ASMO claims to be able to get regen off a folder. Regarding the figures, at one site comparing the rice nozzles to the kort and open props, they were citing 40 percent improvement in thrust and showing substantial improvements in overall boat speed in the ten knot range. hell I'd be happy with ten or 15 percent improvement. At moving towards 5 dollars a gallon in a lot of places, that would add up. As you point out, these nozzles were developed for tugs which move around a lot faster than my sailboat will, so I suspect I'm in a good speed range for their effect. as for big propellers, i'm kind of limited as to diameter because of the necessity for staying under 6' for draft. I'd b happier at 5'6" which given all that's going on down there, doesn't leave room to really turn a big prop. Turning a smaller one with greater efficiency thus becomes attractive. Between the skeg in front, stainless 'strain' rails running in a cone back to the nozzle, I would think that the prop would be more secure than just 'hanging out there" :) Assuming the nozzle is strong enough, and the one I envision would be something along the lines of a an automobile stainless wheel with the center cut out, then I think I'd be improving the situation and not diminishing it. Further, I think if i were to build a prop to Brent's design, I'd just carry replacement blades and design so that a really hard impact just carries the blade away. With the twin keel/skeg design and any reasonable tide, its not necessary to haul, just find a suitable shoreline. And if out in the deep blue, well, it wouldn't be the first time I've gone overboard to service a prop in the middle of the ocean LOL, and this time I'd be a lot closer to the surface LOL. As for the friction of a folder inside a kort, I don't see anyway it could be worse than a 3 or 4 blade fixxed, and likely to be a heck of a lot better wouldn't you think? And remember, a well designed nozzle isn't just a surface to prevent bleeding off the tip...it is a circular wing that creates lift which in a circle translates to thrust=in this case means thrust as water flows thru it. Look at the hell for strong mounts these things are built with. Why? because they develope thrust themselves, forget the prop, and that thrust is transmitted directly to the hull thru the mount. I don't even think they'd be that hard to weld up once you decided on a suitable foil shape. Anyway, i'll keep researchin :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 11:17:51PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > 2 years ago I brought up the subject of Kort nozzles. Not to summarize > > the discussion, but the consensus seemed to be too much drag for a > > sailboat. Brent had previously brought up the idea of a home made > > folding prop which he had designed which he stated was relatively easy > > to make. > > > > Now, everyone with any knowledge please feel free to dive in, but... > > Heh. "Any" knowledge is just barely enough to qualify me in this area; I > know a tiny bit about it from what I've researched when I was looking at > boat design options of that sort myself. But I'll give it a shot; > hopefully, this will be of some use. > > > why can't I use a folding prop inside of a kort nozzle in order to > > accomplish the following: > > > > 1. a Properly designed folder can be very efficient for propulsion > > ergo, if I fit one inside of a matched Kort...I could gain a lot of > > forward power efficiency , some say on the order of 30 percent.. This > > would be very good on an electric motor powered boat. > > Hmm... I'd vet those figures very carefully before believing them. If > you could get a gain of 30% efficiency, *believe* that people - > cigarette racers and such - would be on top of it before you could > blink. Those guys are spending millions on a 1% gain, and are damn happy > with that - since, /ceteris paribus/, it would let them come in first by > a full boat length in a mile-long race. > > As I understand it, Korts give you a high gain in efficiency in a > _static_ pull - i.e., at 0kt (sort of like a steam engine's max torque) > - and you lose all advantage at ~10kt due to the drag. 7-8 is already > most of the way there, and although I don't believe that the progression > is linear, it's close enough to the top that you should examine that > ratio carefully. > > > 2. The single biggest criticism of Kort nozzles is the drag they > > create when sailing...BUT, wouldn't a folder alleviate a great deal of > > that? I think if properly sized and fitted, it would..plus we're > > talking 7 or 8 knots cruise here, not 30. Wouldn't it be much like > > pulling an open ended bucket thru the water, especially with the prop > > folded up in the center? > > Not really - since you have a restricted channel for the disturbed > water. The friction effects would still be high. The question is, would > you gain more than you lost in the long run? If, as you say, you've done > a lot of cruising, then you know what percentage of the time you spend > under sail vs. under power (and can tweak the figures to account for > changes in your new boat type - and perhaps your preferences in regard > to that ratio due to your increasing age. :) Figure the loss x sailing > time vs. the gain x engine time, and you've got a number that you can > play with. Without it, you don't have much in a way of a basis for a > rational decision. > > > 6. Would offer additional protection to the prop, especially with some > > thin 'runners' going forward to the skeg, a kind of screen for trash etc. > > Are you sure about that? What happens if you run into something? A fixed > prop (and some folders) can just be pulled, banged back into an > approximate shape with a hammer, and used (at a lowered efficiency) > until you get to a prop shop or are able to take more time to do it > right. A damaged Kort enclosure (given the tight clearance around the > prop) would hose you well and truly until you could get to some major > resources - at least until you could haul the boat. > > > Ok, fire away. What am I missing here? And don't sweat cost, since the > > whole thing would be welded up in stainless, as presumably would be > > the prop, shaft, etc., and not purchased. > > Why not skip the whole problem and use a really BIG fixed prop attached > to a retractable leg in a well? You could raise it for sailing, thus > eliminating the drag, and get _really_ efficient coupling to the water > for both driving and making power. You sure wouldn't have to wait for > 6kt or whatever to start; a big slow wheel will spin way before that. > > > Again, Brent has stated he > > has designed and built such a folder and its not that hard to do. As I > > understand it, the Kort/Rice nozzles are essentially hydrofoils bent > > into a circle around the prop., a venturi if you will. > > Well, sorta. Very sorta. :) A venturi would need to be a lot longer and > have a much slower taper than a Kort nozzle to avoid huge friction > losses. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13604|13540|2007-06-06 11:59:50|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Sounds like you have been doing your homework but let me add some thoughts. V belts can slip if something gets stuck in a prop saving it from some damage that can be caused and make less noise. A spring loaded folding prop will close if over spun in the way I see the phisics. Even with water caps on the batteries you need them in a sealed box with posative ventalation with there always being a chance of off gassing if overcharged. Higher voltage systems have less lime drop and need smaller wirer. cort tubes and regen have been talked about a lot in the Yahoo electric boat group. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As I understand it, as with any source of power, you want to match > your prop pitch such that adding in the expected 'slip' you get to > just about your calculated hull speed at a reasonable rpm. The Asmo > like system is quite versatile in this regard given the ability to > swap pulleys and belts. I was going to use the belt off the big > motorcycle belt drives :) They handle far more torque and hp than my > boat will have, are mass produced, non "marine" thus not so pricey:) > > Variable pitch props are darned expensive, and i'm not so sure that > with a full torque at any rpm DC motor driven system, that they are > necessary. The solid state electronics in the controller handle the > regen. As I understand it, you put the lever into forward sending so > much juice into the motor to turn the prop. If the water is turning it > faster than the amount of power would, it 'overturns' the prop making > it a generator instead of a motor. The excess juice is routed back > into the battery bank. These electronics are now so good that you can > use drive power going up the backside of a wave and regen sliding down > the front side, with no attention to the situation on your part. > > Back to prop choice, I need to gear the electrics so that I get the hp > i want at the right voltage and rpm so when I get down to brass tacks, > I'll be "close" and can swap things around till i'm happy, things > being the pulley ratios. > > As for batteries, since I'll have the diesel genset ready to pop in > and can pretty much set it to come on at any discharge level I want; > I'm planning for around 50 percent DOD instead of the more often > calculated 80 percent so often cited on purely battery driven boats. > No reason to over stress the packs when the genset is sitting there. > At that discharge rate, and using the heavy solid lead plate > industrial batts, I *could* get close to ten years out of a full set. > I'm not familiar with your 25 year bats but I'll look into that :) > Bat maintenance shouldn't be a problem since once the boat is done, > I'll pretty much be on it or near it till one of us gives out :) > except of course for periodic side trips which shouldn't be long > enough to cause problems. I'm told that with the heavy plate > batteries, trickle charging is the way to maintain battery 'virility' > as it were :) without burning them up thru overcharging. With my > intended selection of solar panels, that should be no problem. I'm > planning them in a grid so that I can use them together, or one alone > to adjust from trickle, to soaking up as much as I can given the > physical limitations of the rationally usable surface area. Another > helpful development regarding bat maintenance is this hydro caps which > trap the gaseous hydrogen and oxygen given off while charging and > turn it back into water and return to the battery. That will help a lot. > > Also, as you point out, i really need a pretty sophisticated charger > matched to the battery bank characteristics. Fortunately, the newer > solid state models keep improving, and falling in price :) > > Oversize wiring and cabling, careful monitoring of the battery state > of charge, and making sure everything is tied down, and that > electrical connections are solid, and sealed against humidity etc. > will go a long way towards the peace of mind I hope the system allows > me to achieve. DC motor life, is very long if kept dry. The motors > I'm looking at require brush inspection about every 4000 hours and > replacement is dead simple, heck if you ran 24/7 that would be about > once every six months or so...and I can guarantee that they won't get > that kind of workout :) not with the sail area my rig will carry LOL. > > All of the electrical equipment on board will be chosen according to > metallury and suitability for a marine existence, then will be > dismantled, 'marinized' and re-assembled prior to installation. I > plan on using mostly consumer items, but quality ones, that can be > used till worn out and simply replaced. DC to DC and DC to AC > transformers will give me a whole host of voltages to fool with if I > want so it won't matter much If i need to replace a hot plate in > Bangkok or London. > > Now before everyone starts chewing my backside for so many 'goodies' > on board, let me just say, to each his own :) Brent may be the kind of > guy who can just plop down on the dock, pull up an armful of snow to > use as a pillow and crash out hehehehe, but man I'm too old for that > stuff:) They say that denying yourself things you really want builds > character. Well I'll tell you something, In the name of doing things > that needed doing, I've denied myself plenty; and at this point I > figure I have all the 'character' I need sooo...its time to get out > the toys !!!!! LOL :) The falcon was full electric and I had only a > handful of problems in the years I had her, and those problems are > being dealt with in the new boat. I had an engine driven freezer that > would turn 40 lb salmon into a baseball bat like weapon in just a few > minutes:)big insulation on a built in ice box is easy during > construction and if you don't do it that way, you'll regret it. Brent > doesn't drink, but I'll tell you, watching a tropical sunset with > someone worth sharing it with, with a cold libation of your choosing, > it just doesn't get much better than that :) Let me tell you, when > it gets good and hot, "ICE IS NICE!!!" Remember, my boat is a little > larger than Brent's 40 and most of the time I'll be the only one on > board..so with the dc motors being so small, and the genset being > smaller than the normal aux and capable of being mounted in any numbr > of locations, I have a lot more room. If you take a look at the 44 > and 39 Nauticat's and figure somewhere in between you'll have an idea. > > > seer | 13605|13540|2007-06-06 12:04:23|David A. Frantz|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Seer A couple of comments. 1. The Asmo system looks fairly generic as far as Motor/Drive systems go. That is a timing or HTD belt drive. I think the biggest problem with doing this your self is sourcing the DC motors and controls for the popular voltages in a Boat. If you are near a reasonably big city you might want to check out the industrial drives and electrical supply shops. Properly rated such "timing belt" drives can be very reliable and easy to service. We use such for industrial operations so I speak from experience. 2. On the other hand you might not want to do that. The biggest issue I see with the industrial controls is their survivability on the open ocean. Most of this sort of hardware is supplied without conformal coatings or much attention paid to exposure. You can of course source the better hardware but things will get pricey. The other options is to go the low cost route and brings spares. The thing to be aware of is that few of the industrial drives regenerate in a way that is designed for batteries. In either the case of a marine system or industrial the emerging super capacitor technologies are very interesting. These would provide much better charge acceptance though they are as yet proven to be useful in marine apps. 3. With respect to discharge I'm not sure which specific type of battery you are referencing but generally DOD means "depth of discharge" and 80% could be way to much for most lead acid battery technologies. Even so call deep discharge batteries. 50% isn't that bad. 4. VERY IMPORTANT >>>>>> All lead acid battery formulations require ventilation. So this needs to be incorporated into the design. Even more so Isolation of the batteries from the rest of the living area is important. **************************** One of the best things that battery driven systems provide is the concept of active ballast. By that I mean you can replace in active lead. concrete or whatever with something that provides additional functionality while helping with ballasting the boat. I've often imagined a keel containing the batteries but I'm not sure that is the place for lead acid batteries. Mostly due to most keels being thin and batteries a bit wider. As to interesting technologies coming on line, Oskosh teamed with Rockwell is building or prototyping big trucks for the military that are diesel electrics. In this case the diesel is on line all the time driving a super capacitor bank. I read about this earlier in the year in an engineering trade magazine. It would be interesting if Rockwell would be willing to enter the boating markets with such technology. No long term energy storage though. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > As I understand it, as with any source of power, you want to match > your prop pitch such that adding in the expected 'slip' you get to > just about your calculated hull speed at a reasonable rpm. The Asmo > like system is quite versatile in this regard given the ability to > swap pulleys and belts. I was going to use the belt off the big > motorcycle belt drives :) They handle far more torque and hp than my > boat will have, are mass produced, non "marine" thus not so pricey:) > > Variable pitch props are darned expensive, and i'm not so sure that > with a full torque at any rpm DC motor driven system, that they are > necessary. The solid state electronics in the controller handle the > regen. As I understand it, you put the lever into forward sending so > much juice into the motor to turn the prop. If the water is turning it > faster than the amount of power would, it 'overturns' the prop making > it a generator instead of a motor. The excess juice is routed back > into the battery bank. These electronics are now so good that you can > use drive power going up the backside of a wave and regen sliding down > the front side, with no attention to the situation on your part. > > Back to prop choice, I need to gear the electrics so that I get the hp > i want at the right voltage and rpm so when I get down to brass tacks, > I'll be "close" and can swap things around till i'm happy, things > being the pulley ratios. > > As for batteries, since I'll have the diesel genset ready to pop in > and can pretty much set it to come on at any discharge level I want; > I'm planning for around 50 percent DOD instead of the more often > calculated 80 percent so often cited on purely battery driven boats. > No reason to over stress the packs when the genset is sitting there. > At that discharge rate, and using the heavy solid lead plate > industrial batts, I *could* get close to ten years out of a full set. > I'm not familiar with your 25 year bats but I'll look into that :) > Bat maintenance shouldn't be a problem since once the boat is done, > I'll pretty much be on it or near it till one of us gives out :) > except of course for periodic side trips which shouldn't be long > enough to cause problems. I'm told that with the heavy plate > batteries, trickle charging is the way to maintain battery 'virility' > as it were :) without burning them up thru overcharging. With my > intended selection of solar panels, that should be no problem. I'm > planning them in a grid so that I can use them together, or one alone > to adjust from trickle, to soaking up as much as I can given the > physical limitations of the rationally usable surface area. Another > helpful development regarding bat maintenance is this hydro caps which > trap the gaseous hydrogen and oxygen given off while charging and > turn it back into water and return to the battery. That will help a lot. > > Also, as you point out, i really need a pretty sophisticated charger > matched to the battery bank characteristics. Fortunately, the newer > solid state models keep improving, and falling in price :) > > Oversize wiring and cabling, careful monitoring of the battery state > of charge, and making sure everything is tied down, and that > electrical connections are solid, and sealed against humidity etc. > will go a long way towards the peace of mind I hope the system allows > me to achieve. DC motor life, is very long if kept dry. The motors > I'm looking at require brush inspection about every 4000 hours and > replacement is dead simple, heck if you ran 24/7 that would be about > once every six months or so...and I can guarantee that they won't get > that kind of workout :) not with the sail area my rig will carry LOL. > > All of the electrical equipment on board will be chosen according to > metallury and suitability for a marine existence, then will be > dismantled, 'marinized' and re-assembled prior to installation. I > plan on using mostly consumer items, but quality ones, that can be > used till worn out and simply replaced. DC to DC and DC to AC > transformers will give me a whole host of voltages to fool with if I > want so it won't matter much If i need to replace a hot plate in > Bangkok or London. > > Now before everyone starts chewing my backside for so many 'goodies' > on board, let me just say, to each his own :) Brent may be the kind of > guy who can just plop down on the dock, pull up an armful of snow to > use as a pillow and crash out hehehehe, but man I'm too old for that > stuff:) They say that denying yourself things you really want builds > character. Well I'll tell you something, In the name of doing things > that needed doing, I've denied myself plenty; and at this point I > figure I have all the 'character' I need sooo...its time to get out > the toys !!!!! LOL :) The falcon was full electric and I had only a > handful of problems in the years I had her, and those problems are > being dealt with in the new boat. I had an engine driven freezer that > would turn 40 lb salmon into a baseball bat like weapon in just a few > minutes:)big insulation on a built in ice box is easy during > construction and if you don't do it that way, you'll regret it. Brent > doesn't drink, but I'll tell you, watching a tropical sunset with > someone worth sharing it with, with a cold libation of your choosing, > it just doesn't get much better than that :) Let me tell you, when > it gets good and hot, "ICE IS NICE!!!" Remember, my boat is a little > larger than Brent's 40 and most of the time I'll be the only one on > board..so with the dc motors being so small, and the genset being > smaller than the normal aux and capable of being mounted in any numbr > of locations, I have a lot more room. If you take a look at the 44 > and 39 Nauticat's and figure somewhere in between you'll have an idea. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Peter Muth > wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > I really like the diesel electric concept, a truly effective solution. > > > > While designing and using similar systems (though not on a sailboat), I > > have repeatedly had the experience of the lead acid batteries not > living > > up to a reasonable lifespan. In one system that I use, the batteries > > have to be replaced every three years. The manufacturers can be less > > than forthcoming with information regarding lifespan calculations, > > unfortunately. Anyway, I just thought I would give you a heads up > > regarding this possible issue, (assuming you are not already on top > of it). > > > > In case it is helpful: In general, this issue depends both on the depth > > (%) of discharge before recharging (and number of cycles of that), and > > the physical construction of the batteries. (With the batteries that > are > > designed to be capable of a life approaching that of a well constructed > > boat.... being quite expensive compared to their rated capacity.) Such > > batteries can be had directly off the shelf from the in-home solar > > energy industry. (Available with at least a 25 year rated lifespan, > last > > time I was looking a few years ago. (They are a bit like a deep-cycle > > marine battery, but even more extreme in that same philosophy.)) > > Charge/discharge controllers that use special electrical waveforms to > > help to keep the battery from destroying itself (the usual mode of > > destruction), can also be had, and are probably worth every penny, > > though I have never had the opportunity to try one. (But if you > do/have, > > I would be interested to hear your experience :) > > > > BTW: Have you considered a variable pitch prop to optimize the matching > > between the "prop/speed/sails/wind-power" side of things to the > > "generator/batteries/charge-condition" situation? Are you considering > > doing that with a variable transformer or solid state controller > > instead? Perhaps just letting the chips fall where they may? Just > > wondering :) > > > > Good Luck > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > As most of you know, I'm pretty much decided on a home brew diesel > > > electric system, primarily comprised of off the shelf parts from the > > > golf cart/electric forklift/and dc industrial motor industries. > > > > > > Some have asked in the past what an installed system might look like > > > and here's an example of the kind of thing i have in mind. > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > course these guys are commercial and vikings to boot so they're raping > > > the public on costs LOL., however, if you look at the setup, its the > > > kind of thing that could be welded together in stainless in a few > hours. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 13606|13594|2007-06-06 12:04:27|echo6@cableone.net|Re: 6011|<7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. I used some 7018s, but they started pin holing. I assume it is because they picked up moisture. I have welded most of my boat, I'll let you know in a few years if I did it right :) ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net| 13607|13189|2007-06-06 12:04:33|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Right, time to move on. It was fun tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > lol. :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant of > > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've rounded > > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to escape > > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round them up, > > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of cheese in big > > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. But the traps > > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to try again with > > alloy traps. > > > > Seriously people, let's give it a rest before Alex comes back & grounds > > us all. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > out of hand..." > > > > > > | 13608|13540|2007-06-06 12:04:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 12:17:47AM -0500, Peter Muth wrote: > Yes, very true... lead acid doesn't like to be fully discharged, and and > can have dramatically reduced capacity after only a few deep discharges. > (which can then have effectively eaten thousands of dollars worth of > lead acid batteries.) Yep. Heavy-duty (e.g. golf cart) batteries mitigate that to some extent, but it's relatively easy to kill those as well. I understand that AGM batteries are a lot better about it - i.e., don't take nearly as much damage from a full discharge as the other types do - but they're too expensive for me to experiment with. :) Besudes, my heavy-duty golf cart batteries are in good shape, and I have enough experience to rely on them remaining that way for a good long while yet. > - a careful system design (to avoid deep discharges, while having > adequate power reserves, and allow reasonable diesel/sail usage/cycle > times, while maintaining high charge levels in general) The rule of thumb that I follow is to design the power system for 3.5-4 times the projected usage capacity. This allows for the usable charge/discharge range in the worst case (50% at max discharge, 80-85% at best "bulk" charge), efficiency loss over time, and a bit of expansion room for new equipment. Some of this can be mitigated by having continuously-operating charging systems (e.g. solar panels and wind generators) and living in an area where there's plenty of drive for both of those. Fortunately, those tend to be the places with the best cruising! When I was down in the islands, the sun shone at full blast and the wind blew a steady force 4 pretty much every day (except when it was blowing force 12, that is. :) I also recall seeing large-scale NiCd batteries for sale in one of the 'off-the-grid' magizines ("Real Living" or something like that) - 2000Ah capacity, guaranteed for 25 years. As I recall, NiCds that big don't have memory effect problems - i.e., can be discharged pretty much to zero without damage. This could be worth exploring if you're designing a brand-new system from scratch. I also recall meeting a Swedish cruiser, years ago, who had built his own boat (aluminum, as I recall) and filled his keel - designed for the purpose - with a whole hell of a lot of batteries. He used a simple chopper circuit instead of an inverter to power his AC stuff, both 110v and 220v, since by using a couple of big switches he could hook his batteries in almost any combination of series/parallel that he wanted. Very sweet setup. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13609|13581|2007-06-06 12:04:37|James Pronk|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|Hello Aaron Are you building a 36' or 40' boat and did that cost include delivery? I called E.M Jorgensen and the sales rep said I could only get a 8x20. I will try to find a supplier close to me for the steel, like Algoma steel. Thanks James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > James > > I just got 2 8X40 from SeaPort Steel In Seatle, Washington Cost was close to $2,000 US each. > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13610|13189|2007-06-06 12:04:54|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? your italian reader... alf > lol. :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > out of hand..." > > > > > > | 13611|13581|2007-06-06 12:05:56|Carl Anderson|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|The next problem you will come up against is finding someone to do the "wheel abraded & primed " part of the steel order. I had to go to Canada to find the steel for my boat. Carl James Pronk wrote: > > I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a > 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just > laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and > weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they > can supply it. > Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one > these boats or where did you get it. > Thank you for your time, James Pronk > > > | 13612|13412|2007-06-06 12:07:00|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I don't need a fat profit. I don't need any more money than is trickling in . It's summer here and I need a job like a chicken needs Colonel Saunders.Greed is not my master. Its been suggested that the light sandblasting and a few days welding is worth $9,000. Who's giving these quotes. I think Alaska Joe Earsly would be far ahead if he sold his hull and bought Alex's, there is that much more done on it. I saw no distortion on the hull, except where Alex's landlord overwelded the anchor well, something another BC builder routinely does.. Any other distortion could be cranked out in a few minutes. The deal you are offered is extremely rare and of no use to someone who is not in Australia.Go for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, reconditioned engine, g/ > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 minutes from my > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed for a refit then the > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust anywhere in the > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the WL it needs some > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than I want, > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in finishing it, one > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat profit, thereby funding > the cruising kitty some more. > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely to be less than > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > PDW > | 13613|13594|2007-06-08 19:51:27|Mike|Re: 6011|Tom, I'm trying hard to follow this, so bear with me. I'd agree that 6011 is a great out of position rod and, when running a root in on pipe - if one knows how - no whip & pause is necessary for uniform penetration. subsequent passes, however? Are you saying that you find that 6011 is faster than 7018 when running flat, horizontal, overhead grooves/fillets? Come on. I run 1/8" 7018 at 140A to 160A, in all but vertical up. Convince me that you can cover more area with 1/8" or 5/32" 6011 in the same period of time. In suggesting that downhanding 6011 is stronger than uphanding, aren't you leading the "new" welder down a dangerous path? Put yourself in the place of a group member who takes a few weekend welding courses before building his/her own boat. It's easy enough for you, RT, GaryL, Shane, myself, or other members who weld for a living to say that we can do this or that. Keeping in mind that many of the members are new to welding and, therefore, need the easiest approach to successfully welding their boats is, I believe, more important. Ex.: While I have no problem with using 6011 to cut, gouge or wash steel, I'd advise any member new to welding to use a grinder. pain in the ass, yeah, more idiot-proof, yeah. Looking forward to your response. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Let me say 6011 is a good general rod for any mild steel under about an A-45 grade, ubove that then the 7018 comes in . 6011 welds a heck of a lot faster than 7018 . 7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. > I weld primarily with 6011 in the feild and I dont use any whip and pause methed just streight welding and I allso weld vetical down on everything when using 6011 , pipe , plate , and sheet metal and yes I can do it stronger than vertical up have tested work several times. 6013 is ok but to slow for me and a lot more fussy, every thing has to be just right or you get slag entrapment in the welds but it does make a pretty weld compared to 6011. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13614|13581|2007-06-08 19:51:54|brentswain38|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|In BC they used to offer only 20 ft max , so I told everyone to bug the hell out of them for bigger plates and they started stocking them. most steel is shipped in rolls and flattend and cut at whatever length they want at the supplier. The biggest 3/16th I ever handled was 40 ft, and the biggest plate I ever handled was a 12 ft by 60 ft half inch plate. They are definily bullshitting you, bigger plates are common.Don't try piecing such small plates together, it would be a disaster. Find another supplier. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a > 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just > laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and > weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they > can supply it. > Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one > these boats or where did you get it. > Thank you for your time, James Pronk > | 13615|13566|2007-06-08 19:51:59|brentswain38|Re: Using 6011|6013 doesn't penetrate or burn thru crap as well as 6011, in fact nothing else does. It will be oK if you goudge out or bevel edges for penetration more and grind out any crap before welding over .Make sure the steel is clean before welding with 6013. It's a much smoother weld. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same rod. I'd > be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13616|13189|2007-06-08 19:52:43|Dennis H. Rutledal|SV: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberg|LOL = Laughing Out Loud ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing FWIW = For What It's Worth This is a language developed by tenager nerds too lazy to write whole sentences. Some of the words have become so common in use that it is starting to rub of in common language and been used by older generations :) Sincerely Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]På vegne av Alfredo Nannetti Sendt: 6. juni 2007 15:21 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: Re: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? your italian reader... alf > lol. :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > out of hand..." > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13617|13189|2007-06-08 19:52:53|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberg|LOL = Laugh Out Loud! (At least I think this is the explanation! :-)) /Leif Alfredo Nannetti Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? your italian reader... alf| 13618|13412|2007-06-08 19:53:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much the owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. If you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost opportunity. An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: cost = time + money + opportunity + risk opportunity = value x time risk = chance of failure x cost of failure Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal for another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) is willing to pay. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, reconditioned engine, g/ box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 minutes from my place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed for a refit then the owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust anywhere in the interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the WL it needs some work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than I want, otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in finishing it, one obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat profit, thereby funding the cruising kitty some more. Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely to be less than the material cost to date. That's just how things are. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13619|13581|2007-06-08 19:53:09|Aaron Williams|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|James I am building a 36' but the steel company would not cut the plate so I had to buy the extra. They also had it wheel abraded and primed and the texture of the steel is more like sandpaper with primer on it. Cost included delivery to my shop. Where are you located? James Pronk wrote: Hello Aaron Are you building a 36' or 40' boat and did that cost include delivery? I called E.M Jorgensen and the sales rep said I could only get a 8x20. I will try to find a supplier close to me for the steel, like Algoma steel. Thanks James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > James > > I just got 2 8X40 from SeaPort Steel In Seatle, Washington Cost was close to $2,000 US each. > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13620|13189|2007-06-08 19:53:36|brentswain38|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Alf It means" Laughing out loud." Had trouble with that myself at first. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? > your italian reader... > alf > > > > > lol. :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > > out of hand..." > > > > > > > > > > | 13621|13581|2007-06-08 19:53:40|brentswain38|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|It used to be hard to find anything over 20 ft here in Canada. I just told guys to bug the hell out of the suppliers and they eventually started stocking 36 ft plates. 4X8s would be a disaster. The plate is shipped in rolls like giant paper towel rolls up to 150 feet long. The supplier flattens them and cuts them to whatever length they want. The biggest 3/16th I've used was 40 feet. The biggest plate I ever handled was 12 ft by 60 ft half inch plate. Boats built in California got their plates from Portland , wheelabraded and primed. Sandblasting is still an option altho not as good. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > The next problem you will come up against is finding someone to do the > "wheel abraded & primed " part of the steel order. > > I had to go to Canada to find the steel for my boat. > > Carl > > > James Pronk wrote: > > > > I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a > > 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just > > laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and > > weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they > > can supply it. > > Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one > > these boats or where did you get it. > > Thank you for your time, James Pronk > > > > > > > | 13622|13412|2007-06-08 19:53:56|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Before relying on them, try a downhand. Then try an uphand , then try break them. The difference in strength is very obvious . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > seer > 6013 is a low penetration rod. I use it when doing custom exhaust > jobs on my stable of relics. As these boats seem to be usually built > of 3/16" material, adequate penetration isn't hard to achieve with > any rod. Still, it would definitely be my last choice with the SMAW > process. Your topic brings me to another thought, however. I saw a > fair bit of downhand stick welding, below the waterline, on some > boats being built. Yeah, it looks nice, but forget about it being a > quality weld. "uphand-good, downhand-bad!" Better to leave downhand > to the sheetmetal artists. > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I had thought 6013 was what was recommended. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > > > Mike, I agree that in small boats, 6010/6011 is often not used as > > > effectively as it could be. We see many examples of the good, > the > > > bad and the ugly. On some boats, I often wonder what is hidden > under > > > filler. The predominant defect seems to be lack of adequate heat > and > > > no whip action, leading to lack of sidewall fusion, insufficient > > > penetration, cold cracking etc. This said, if proper proceedure > is > > > used, basic 6010/11 fast freeze is still a viable way to weld a > small > > > boat. What would you consider to be a preferable approach? > > > > > > rt > > > > > > > > > > > | 13623|13540|2007-06-08 19:54:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 09:05:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > As to interesting technologies coming on line, Oskosh teamed with > Rockwell is building or prototyping big trucks for the military that are > diesel electrics. In this case the diesel is on line all the time > driving a super capacitor bank. I read about this earlier in the year > in an engineering trade magazine. It would be interesting if Rockwell > would be willing to enter the boating markets with such technology. No > long term energy storage though. Thanks, David - you've managed to surprise me. I try to keep track of that kind of advances, and I somehow missed this one - although I've heard of the military and other people playing with capacitor banks. That's a *very* promising technology - since capacitors, unlike batteries, lose almost nothing to inefficiency during the charge cycle; are relatively unaffected by temperature (at least as compared to batteries); can be charged up to 100% without overheating; can be discharged to 0% without damage; have almost zero internal resistance (i.e., essentially unlimited amperage input _and_ output); and have an operating life that is essentially not limited by the number of usage cycles. If someone discovers a way to build a capacitor with an energy density that's comparable to batteries, battery manufacturers would be out of business the day after that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13624|13189|2007-06-08 19:54:41|Mike|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Alf, lol means "laugh out loud", lmao means "laugh my ass off", rofl means "rolling on floor laughing". There are a lot of other such anacronysms that people use on computer conversations. I can't understand most of what my nieces & nephews are saying when they e- mail me. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? > your italian reader... > alf > > > > > lol. :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > > out of hand..." > > > > > > > > > > | 13625|13581|2007-06-08 19:54:59|Mike|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|Was half of it french? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > The next problem you will come up against is finding someone to do the > "wheel abraded & primed " part of the steel order. > > I had to go to Canada to find the steel for my boat. > > Carl > > > James Pronk wrote: > > > > I was placing an order with my steel supplier and asked about getting a > > 8 x 36 foot piece of 3/16 plate and a price for that as well. They just > > laughed at me and said that I would have to buy 9 four by eights and > > weld them together. I will give E.M. Jorgenson a call to see if they > > can supply it. > > Has anyone had trouble buying the large pieces of plate to build one > > these boats or where did you get it. > > Thank you for your time, James Pronk > > > > > > > | 13626|13581|2007-06-08 19:55:03|J Fisher|Re: 36 feet of steel plate|It has been previously discussed that 2 20 foot plates can be welded together to make a 40 foot plate. The weld ends up in a low stress area so it is not an issue. John -------Original Message------- From: James Pronk Date: 6/6/2007 9:04:38 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 36 feet of steel plate Hello Aaron Are you building a 36' or 40' boat and did that cost include delivery? I called E.M Jorgensen and the sales rep said I could only get a 8x20. I will try to find a supplier close to me for the steel, like Algoma steel. Thanks James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > James > > I just got 2 8X40 from SeaPort Steel In Seatle, Washington Cost was close to $2,000 US each. > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13627|13189|2007-06-08 19:57:40|seeratlas|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Ciao Alfredo :) Da dove in Italia provenite? Ho studiato molti anni fa, all'Universita' di Firenze ed ho preso un grado nel diritto internatzionale di lavoro. Uno dei miei posti favoriti nel mondo. :) Mezzi di 'LOL' che ridono alto fuori. i.e., "laughing out loud" :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? > your italian reader... > alf > > > > > lol. :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > > out of hand..." > > > > > > > > > > | 13628|13628|2007-06-08 19:59:19|Aaron|Center seam overlap|Brent I folded one half today. It went well mostly but I think I have a problem with something cause I ended up with a 1 1/2" overlap at the center seam. Would that much overlap be normal. I posted some pictures in Origami boats 2. Aaron P.S Paul thanks for the help this week.| 13629|13594|2007-06-08 20:02:32|richytill|Re: 6011|Those who are competent in the vertical down technique can perform "downhill" welds of complete integrity. It is critical that the correct electrodes and proceedures are used. API 1104 is one code that outlines proceedure. X ray quality vertical down welding holds together the cross country pipe lines that store and carry oil and natural gas. We test these transmission lines to 3200 psi and up. When we test weldors for this proceedure root and face bends are required; no defect or failure is acceptable. It is uncommon to use vertical down technique in ship-building--CWB and ABS prescribe vertical up. One reason for this is the need for precise edge prep and clean conditions for good vertical down. I too, would shy away from vertical down on the hull of a small boat unless it was posible to verify the level of competence of the weldor. 7014 would be a good choice of rod for the hull where welds are performed in the flat or horizontal position. On "My Island" I used 7014 where possible. As has been said--7014 is a freeze/fill rod that gives more strength and more speed. With 7014, we are describing 67,000--77,000 psi tensile in the as welded condition. Plate thickness of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" are acceptable. I used a small number of 7018 rods on the inside of the hull and only in positional areas where extra loads were anticipated. I would not use 7018 on the outside of the hull below the water line. 7018 is used on the bow sections of icebreakers but that is a whole different story. 6010/6011 remains a practical, affordable electrode for the average guy doing a small boat. 7014 will help with speed if position allows. 7018 is an excellent all round rod but has too many problems for boatbuilders. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "echo6@..." wrote: > > <7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. > > I used some 7018s, but they started pin holing. I assume it is because they > picked up moisture. I have welded most of my boat, I'll let you know in a few > years if I did it right :) > > > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net > | 13630|13189|2007-06-08 20:02:33|jim dorey|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > > > Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? > your italian reader... > alf > depending on the location of use, it could mean lots of love, or laughing out loud.| 13631|13189|2007-06-08 20:02:54|sae140|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? > your italian reader... > alf Hi Alf LOL = "Laugh Out Loud" other common ones are: AFAIK = "As Far As I Know" FWIW = "For What It's Worth" OTOH = "On The Other Hand" BTW = "By The Way" Hope this helps. Colin| 13632|13540|2007-06-08 22:36:57|mickeyolaf|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Are Lithium dry cells the battery of the future? In power tools they are so much better than Ni-Cads. No memory. Strong til discharged. The 28 volt batteries I use with my skill saw, sawzal and drill are amazing. Could a lithium battery be developed to replace golf cart batteries? Because my batteries are in the bilge I am forced to use AGM's (little if any gas) at $1800 CDN. If any of you are considering inverter/chargers stay away from Xantrex's "Prosine" models. I was told by their authorized repair facility that the lightweight "Prosine" models are basically throw away units and can't be repaired. The Xantex MS series are repairable and less expensive but twice the weight. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 12:17:47AM -0500, Peter Muth wrote: > > Yes, very true... lead acid doesn't like to be fully discharged, and and > > can have dramatically reduced capacity after only a few deep discharges. > > (which can then have effectively eaten thousands of dollars worth of > > lead acid batteries.) > > Yep. Heavy-duty (e.g. golf cart) batteries mitigate that to some extent, > but it's relatively easy to kill those as well. I understand that AGM > batteries are a lot better about it - i.e., don't take nearly as much > damage from a full discharge as the other types do - but they're too > expensive for me to experiment with. :) Besudes, my heavy-duty golf cart > batteries are in good shape, and I have enough experience to rely on > them remaining that way for a good long while yet. > > > - a careful system design (to avoid deep discharges, while having > > adequate power reserves, and allow reasonable diesel/sail usage/cycle > > times, while maintaining high charge levels in general) > > The rule of thumb that I follow is to design the power system for 3.5-4 > times the projected usage capacity. This allows for the usable > charge/discharge range in the worst case (50% at max discharge, 80- 85% > at best "bulk" charge), efficiency loss over time, and a bit of > expansion room for new equipment. > > Some of this can be mitigated by having continuously-operating charging > systems (e.g. solar panels and wind generators) and living in an area > where there's plenty of drive for both of those. Fortunately, those tend > to be the places with the best cruising! When I was down in the islands, > the sun shone at full blast and the wind blew a steady force 4 pretty > much every day (except when it was blowing force 12, that is. :) > > I also recall seeing large-scale NiCd batteries for sale in one of the > 'off-the-grid' magizines ("Real Living" or something like that) - 2000Ah > capacity, guaranteed for 25 years. As I recall, NiCds that big don't > have memory effect problems - i.e., can be discharged pretty much to > zero without damage. This could be worth exploring if you're designing a > brand-new system from scratch. > > I also recall meeting a Swedish cruiser, years ago, who had built his > own boat (aluminum, as I recall) and filled his keel - designed for the > purpose - with a whole hell of a lot of batteries. He used a simple > chopper circuit instead of an inverter to power his AC stuff, both 110v > and 220v, since by using a couple of big switches he could hook his > batteries in almost any combination of series/parallel that he wanted. > Very sweet setup. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13633|13594|2007-06-08 22:38:27|Jonathan Stevens|6011|Despite my best efforts I can't get 6011 rods. I've been offered some 6010, "but we've not got many left" Thanks for all the help so far. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13634|13189|2007-06-08 22:38:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: [origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|TLA, that's the 3 letter acronym for Three Letter Acronym. I have my own acronym PDQ. My job involves ProDuction, but there is some Question as to what I actually do! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis H. Rutledal" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 12:35 PM Subject: SV: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing LOL = Laughing Out Loud ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing FWIW = For What It's Worth This is a language developed by tenager nerds too lazy to write whole sentences. Some of the words have become so common in use that it is starting to rub of in common language and been used by older generations :) Sincerely Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]På vegne av Alfredo Nannetti Sendt: 6. juni 2007 15:21 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: Re: [origamiboats] Re:[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing Sorry, could someone explain me what does LOL means? your italian reader... alf > lol. :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Now, Seer, don't be blaming all of us North of the 49th for the rant > of > a lunatic. Our provincial government made many cuts to our health > > system, including closing Riverview Psychiatric Hospital. We've > rounded > up most of the former residents, however, a few managed to > escape > overseas and we're using every means at our disposal to round > them up, > including monitoring yahoo groups. We placed pieces of > cheese in big > steel traps and spread them around the countryside. > But the traps > rusted in the morning dew, so, tomorrow we're going to > try again with > alloy traps. > > Seriously people, let's give it a > rest before Alex comes back & grounds > us all. > > --- In > origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "seeratlas" wrote: > > > "... I guess things north of the border really are getting a little > > out of hand..." > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13635|13412|2007-06-08 22:38:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Rather than greed and profit, wouldn't it be reasonable to help Alex. Alex has given weeks if not months and years of his time to make this group a success and he deserves the same consideration. He wants to sell and an unfinished boat is a problem. It is expensive to move as is, which eats up its value to anyone else. I have heard many times that origami boats have been built and launched in 3 weeks. Why not do this now? Get Alex's boat launched. Once in the water, with some sails she can be taken somewhere convenient and finished. She would be worth a lot more than she is now. Surely this is the reasonable solution, given the time Alex has given this group. What is the big deal? Anyone living anywhere near Alex, or able to get there in a boat, if you don't have a family to support surely you can put in a week or two of your time, finish the boat and get her launched. With summer approaching this is the perfect time. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:41 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... I don't need a fat profit. I don't need any more money than is trickling in . It's summer here and I need a job like a chicken needs Colonel Saunders.Greed is not my master. Its been suggested that the light sandblasting and a few days welding is worth $9,000. Who's giving these quotes. I think Alaska Joe Earsly would be far ahead if he sold his hull and bought Alex's, there is that much more done on it. I saw no distortion on the hull, except where Alex's landlord overwelded the anchor well, something another BC builder routinely does.. Any other distortion could be cranked out in a few minutes. The deal you are offered is extremely rare and of no use to someone who is not in Australia.Go for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, reconditioned engine, g/ > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 minutes from my > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed for a refit then the > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust anywhere in the > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the WL it needs some > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than I want, > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in finishing it, one > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat profit, thereby funding > the cruising kitty some more. > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely to be less than > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > PDW > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13636|13412|2007-06-08 22:39:26|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total failure. A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire investment, in cash and labor. So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much > the > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. > If > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost > opportunity. > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > opportunity = value x time > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal > for > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) > is > willing to pay. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: >> >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > reconditioned engine, g/ > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 > minutes from my > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed > for > a refit then the > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust > anywhere in the > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the > WL it needs some > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than > I > want, > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in > finishing it, one > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat > profit, thereby funding > the cruising kitty some more. > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely > to be less than > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > PDW > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13637|13594|2007-06-08 22:39:56|richytill|Re: 6011 and welding|Good welding proceedure makes better metal boats. It makes good sense to come up with the most practical welding approach that you can afford. Welding has been fairly well covered on this site but as might be expecterd; more questions and opinions continue to emerge. In small boats, poor welding practices have led to obvious distortion and/or the excesive use of fillers: this along with bad paint and prep work has given metal boats a bad rap. There are practical ways we can continue to improve this situation. For weldinng "My Island" I purchased a used 250 amp Miller AC/DC transformer-rectifier stick welding machine. When the boat was launched, I replaced the rheostat, and sold the machine to another boat builder for the same amount I paid for it. Based on experience and the fact I was building out-doors with an AC/DC machine, I used 6011/6010 for positional welding, 7014 for flat and horizontal, 7024 on the sole-plate of the keel, 7018 in higher stress areas above the waterline and stainless where required. In shipbuilding, I would only use 7018 below the water-line in specific areas like the bow of an icebreaker or in boom boats that push logs all day. We have used 7018 for unusual repairs below the waterline' but this is the exception and not standard practice. 7014 is suitable for 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" steel. On My Island, all surfaces were cleaned or ground prior to welding. Butt welds were gapped to facilitate adequate penetration and then back-ground and welded from the opposite side. A welding sequence was planned and followed to prevent distortion. Rods were kept dry in the shack where i lived next to the boat. I kept the stainless and 7018 in the rod oven at work and only took out as much as needed when neded. I saw no logical advantage in using alloy steels, Corten, HSLA, manganese for this boat. I figure a good paint job, inside and out, is a better way to use funds. For me, the major advantage of the Swain 36, size for size, is the comparative lack of welding involved. The flush deck further reduces the total inches of weld, however, it is fussy to do without distortion. Less welding makes a better boat--costs less time and money. In conclusion there is little I would change about this welding proceedure given the project, location, conditions and budget. rt Welding is--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "echo6@..." wrote: > > <7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. > > I used some 7018s, but they started pin holing. I assume it is because they > picked up moisture. I have welded most of my boat, I'll let you know in a few > years if I did it right :) > > > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net > | 13638|13594|2007-06-08 22:39:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: 6011|How many people are aware that when the base metal is of lower tensile strength than the weld metal that a stress riser occurs at the weld interface. This often why you see cracking occurring along a weld, and welding it again causes the crack to just move over. Another question. How many people are familiar with Arcair torches, available for almost 100 years, for weld prep and removing bad welds? A couple of examples. Some years ago I was doing some work in my brothers shop and he brought in this backhoe bucket that was all twisted up. He picked up the cutting torch to take it apart and I told him he was using the wrong tool. He gave me a smartass answer and told me to watch. About an hour later, with nothing removed, he said "What is this Arcair thing you were talking about?" I walked over to a drawer and pulled out the Arcair torch he owned, but had never used. I then proceeded to disassemble the bucket as if it were never welded! A second example. A customer asked me to weld up the cracks in an earth saw blade. It was 8 feet in diameter and 1-1/4" thick. He got me a welder to help out, the guy was a pipe liner and very good. When he saw the cracks 3 feet long though he said we'd never get this job done this weekend, it would take us a couple of days just to groove out the cracks with a grinder! I pulled out the arcair and grooved out one crack in about 15 minutes. He looked at it and said "holy shit, it's ready to weld!" We finished the job in eight hours. Great tool for fixing screw-ups in a steel boat. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "richytill" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 6011 Those who are competent in the vertical down technique can perform "downhill" welds of complete integrity. It is critical that the correct electrodes and proceedures are used. API 1104 is one code that outlines proceedure. X ray quality vertical down welding holds together the cross country pipe lines that store and carry oil and natural gas. We test these transmission lines to 3200 psi and up. When we test weldors for this proceedure root and face bends are required; no defect or failure is acceptable. It is uncommon to use vertical down technique in ship-building--CWB and ABS prescribe vertical up. One reason for this is the need for precise edge prep and clean conditions for good vertical down. I too, would shy away from vertical down on the hull of a small boat unless it was posible to verify the level of competence of the weldor. 7014 would be a good choice of rod for the hull where welds are performed in the flat or horizontal position. On "My Island" I used 7014 where possible. As has been said--7014 is a freeze/fill rod that gives more strength and more speed. With 7014, we are describing 67,000--77,000 psi tensile in the as welded condition. Plate thickness of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" are acceptable. I used a small number of 7018 rods on the inside of the hull and only in positional areas where extra loads were anticipated. I would not use 7018 on the outside of the hull below the water line. 7018 is used on the bow sections of icebreakers but that is a whole different story. 6010/6011 remains a practical, affordable electrode for the average guy doing a small boat. 7014 will help with speed if position allows. 7018 is an excellent all round rod but has too many problems for boatbuilders. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "echo6@..." wrote: > > <7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 degree. > > I used some 7018s, but they started pin holing. I assume it is because they > picked up moisture. I have welded most of my boat, I'll let you know in a few > years if I did it right :) > > > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net > | 13639|13594|2007-06-09 08:46:46|Tom|Re: 6011|Mike I am not advising people to weld everything vertical down but letting them know it can and is done. I had a welding inspector told me he had a few welders that can certify vertical down with 7018. The biggest thing in welding is prep work before welding, good clean cuts beveled edges, This is where I think the welding classes are lacking. As far as rods its mostly a matter of preferance, I have met a lot of differant welders over the years and everyone had there preferd rod. Yes for me in the feild, welding with 5/32 6011 is faster than 7018 and when I get into heavy plate welding I use the mig both 6011 and 7018 are to slow for that. One more thing on downhand welding I but weld a lot of 16gage galvanized gutter together and if you listened to the experts it couldnt be done, vertical up on that I would love to see. On my 26 its 10 gage hull and 12 gage top sides and on the 12 gage welding a vertical up on an outside corner would be pretty tough even for and experianced welder with any of the rods, so you tell me whats the correct way? do we tell a new welder he has to weld it that way and make a mess of it or tell them what works. When I run into problems with welding somthing in particular "whitch still happens with 25 years of welding" and I ask for advice, I want to here what works . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 10:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 6011 > Tom, > I'm trying hard to follow this, so bear with me. I'd agree that 6011 is > a great out of position rod and, when running a root in on pipe - if > one knows how - no whip & pause is necessary for uniform penetration. > subsequent passes, however? Are you saying that you find that 6011 is > faster than 7018 when running flat, horizontal, overhead > grooves/fillets? Come on. I run 1/8" 7018 at 140A to 160A, in all but > vertical up. Convince me that you can cover more area with 1/8" or > 5/32" 6011 in the same period of time. In suggesting that downhanding > 6011 is stronger than uphanding, aren't you leading the "new" welder > down a dangerous path? Put yourself in the place of a group member who > takes a few weekend welding courses before building his/her own boat. > It's easy enough for you, RT, GaryL, Shane, myself, or other members > who weld for a living to say that we can do this or that. Keeping in > mind that many of the members are new to welding and, therefore, need > the easiest approach to successfully welding their boats is, I believe, > more important. Ex.: While I have no problem with using 6011 to cut, > gouge or wash steel, I'd advise any member new to welding to use a > grinder. pain in the ass, yeah, more idiot-proof, yeah. > Looking forward to your response. > Regards, > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Let me say 6011 is a good general rod for any mild steel under about > an A-45 grade, ubove that then the 7018 comes in . 6011 welds a heck of > a lot faster than 7018 . 7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored > in a rod oven at 250 degree. >> I weld primarily with 6011 in the feild and I dont use any whip and > pause methed just streight welding and I allso weld vetical down on > everything when using 6011 , pipe , plate , and sheet metal and yes I > can do it stronger than vertical up have tested work several times. > 6013 is ok but to slow for me and a lot more fussy, every thing has to > be just right or you get slag entrapment in the welds but it does make > a pretty weld compared to 6011. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13640|13540|2007-06-09 08:46:53|David A. Frantz|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Hi Ben; Lots of interesting things happening with capacitor storage. Maxwell technologies is one player, that was born out of the SDI initiative. There is also a company, in Texas I believe, that is suppose to be very near deliver of a very large system for automobile usage. Here we are talking about a cap large enough to power a "car" for reasonable distances. Of course proof is in the pudding and they are a highly secretive company. How Super Caps would work out for boating is an interesting question. There is also the issue of safety, as you note the discharge currents can be massive. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 05, 2007 at 09:05:38PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > As to interesting technologies coming on line, Oskosh teamed with > > Rockwell is building or prototyping big trucks for the military that > are > > diesel electrics. In this case the diesel is on line all the time > > driving a super capacitor bank. I read about this earlier in the year > > in an engineering trade magazine. It would be interesting if Rockwell > > would be willing to enter the boating markets with such technology. No > > long term energy storage though. > > Thanks, David - you've managed to surprise me. I try to keep track of > that kind of advances, and I somehow missed this one - although I've > heard of the military and other people playing with capacitor banks. > That's a *very* promising technology - since capacitors, unlike > batteries, lose almost nothing to inefficiency during the charge cycle; > are relatively unaffected by temperature (at least as compared to > batteries); can be charged up to 100% without overheating; can be > discharged to 0% without damage; have almost zero internal resistance > (i.e., essentially unlimited amperage input _and_ output); and have an > operating life that is essentially not limited by the number of usage > cycles. If someone discovers a way to build a capacitor with an energy > density that's comparable to batteries, battery manufacturers would be > out of business the day after that. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 13641|13594|2007-06-09 08:49:25|richytill|Re: 6011|Too true, arc air is excellent providing you have an adequate supply of compressed air and a welding machine that can take the abuse. I use it any time it makes sense. Choice of filler metals can influence stress but there are usually other factors involed when cracking appears in the HAZ. Depends on the type of joint too. Be careful not to assume cracks appear just because of the type of rod. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > How many people are aware that when the base metal is of lower tensile > strength than the weld metal that a stress riser occurs at the weld > interface. This often why you see cracking occurring along a weld, and > welding it again causes the crack to just move over. > > Another question. How many people are familiar with Arcair torches, > available for almost 100 years, for weld prep and removing bad welds? A > couple of examples. Some years ago I was doing some work in my brothers > shop and he brought in this backhoe bucket that was all twisted up. He > picked up the cutting torch to take it apart and I told him he was using the > wrong tool. He gave me a smartass answer and told me to watch. About an > hour later, with nothing removed, he said "What is this Arcair thing you > were talking about?" I walked over to a drawer and pulled out the Arcair > torch he owned, but had never used. I then proceeded to disassemble the > bucket as if it were never welded! > > A second example. A customer asked me to weld up the cracks in an earth saw > blade. It was 8 feet in diameter and 1-1/4" thick. He got me a welder to > help out, the guy was a pipe liner and very good. When he saw the cracks 3 > feet long though he said we'd never get this job done this weekend, it would > take us a couple of days just to groove out the cracks with a grinder! I > pulled out the arcair and grooved out one crack in about 15 minutes. He > looked at it and said "holy shit, it's ready to weld!" We finished the job > in eight hours. > > Great tool for fixing screw-ups in a steel boat. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richytill" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 7:38 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 6011 > > > Those who are competent in the vertical down technique can > perform "downhill" welds of complete integrity. It is critical that > the correct electrodes and proceedures are used. API 1104 is one code > that outlines proceedure. X ray quality vertical down welding holds > together the cross country pipe lines that store and carry oil and > natural gas. We test these transmission lines to 3200 psi and up. > When we test weldors for this proceedure root and face bends are > required; no defect or failure is acceptable. It is uncommon to use > vertical down technique in ship-building--CWB and ABS prescribe > vertical up. One reason for this is the need for precise edge prep and > clean conditions for good vertical down. I too, would shy away from > vertical down on the hull of a small boat unless it was posible to > verify the level of competence of the weldor. > > 7014 would be a good choice of rod for the hull where welds are > performed in the flat or horizontal position. On "My Island" I used > 7014 where possible. As has been said--7014 is a freeze/fill rod that > gives more strength and more speed. With 7014, we are describing > 67,000--77,000 psi tensile in the as welded condition. Plate thickness > of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" are acceptable. I used a small number of 7018 > rods on the inside of the hull and only in positional areas where extra > loads were anticipated. I would not use 7018 on the outside of the > hull below the water line. 7018 is used on the bow sections of > icebreakers but that is a whole different story. > > 6010/6011 remains a practical, affordable electrode for the average guy > doing a small boat. 7014 will help with speed if position allows. > 7018 is an excellent all round rod but has too many problems for > boatbuilders. > > rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "echo6@" wrote: > > > > <7018 to be used corectly needs to be stored in a rod oven at 250 > degree. > > > > I used some 7018s, but they started pin holing. I assume it is > because they > > picked up moisture. I have welded most of my boat, I'll let you know > in a few > > years if I did it right :) > > > > > > ---- Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net > > > | 13642|13566|2007-06-09 08:51:01|Carl Volkwein|Re: Using 6011|Brent: Ok, other than 'joint preperation" etc., where, and how would you use a 6013 on an origomi boat? carlvolkwein brentswain38 wrote: 6013 doesn't penetrate or burn thru crap as well as 6011, in fact nothing else does. It will be oK if you goudge out or bevel edges for penetration more and grind out any crap before welding over .Make sure the steel is clean before welding with 6013. It's a much smoother weld. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same rod. I'd > be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13643|13594|2007-06-09 08:51:42|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Despite my best efforts I can't get 6011 rods. I've been offered some 6010, > "but we've not got many left" > > Thanks for all the help so far. > > Jonathan. > Hi Jonathan Dunno whereabouts in the world you are, but in Britain it's near enough impossible to buy any sort of mild steel rod other than 6013. Most regular welding suppliers have never even heard of 6011 - which is a pity as I'd like to play with a box and see if they're as good as folk on this forum describe. To illustrate my point, A Google (Web) for "6011 welding electrode" returned 13,500 hits, yet a Google (UK) for the same returned just 51, and these were either irrelevant or were reference articles - certainly Google didn't reveal a single vendor offering to sell 'em. It seems that for 'unusual' (i.e. unusual in the UK) rods you really need to track down a specialist supplier - which will probably imply a special order and the additional cost and delay of this. BTW - if anyone's interested in using 6010/11 rods for cutting steel, there's a good description/ explanation over at: http://www.steamengine.com.au/misc/welding/index.html You may also notice that the text reads: "For metal cutting these rods work best for thin sections of material, about 1/2" thick plate and 1" round bar being the maximum for efficient operation. Thicker material can be cut ..." "THIN SECTIONS" !! Comments like this really put the description 'deep penetration rod' into context. But what continues to puzzle me is WHY, when the 6011 is such a standard and commonly available rod in North America, this grade can't be sourced in Britain for love nor money. Can't speak for mainland Europe - maybe someone there could comment ? Colin| 13644|13412|2007-06-09 08:52:13|Mike|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Greg, I was thinking along these same lines when I was in the area, after viewing Alex's boat. When I was chatting with Brent, I queried why it hadn't been fully welded up, primed, etc. If I remember correctly, he said that he had broached the subject of completion with Alex several times but that Alex didn't feel that he could afford to do it, at those times. That was just after I had heard from another source that Alex was in South America. I understand. I'm usually moving in a dozen different directions, on a half a dozen projects, at the same time. Hell, how long have I been yapping about building my own boat? As well, Brent's been waiting about 3 months for me to cut him a cheque for 40' plans. Some people are great at concentrating on one project, before moving on to the next. The vast majority of us, however, scurry from interest to interest, with the hope that, in the end, it all works out. As I have made a firm decision to do some development on my property - even though I intend to get Brent's plans before I go north - I may not start my build for another two years. So be it. Through significant challenges in my life, I have developed a philosophy of enjoying my time and, if not content with my life, changing it. That's why I'm going to quit a well-paying, secure job for the unknown. Maybe, that is where Alex is at. Maybe, he just wanted a change of pace. Having said this, if he wants to supply the gear, I, for one, would be willing to spend the first week of July, moving things forward on his boat. Though it may have nothing to do with origamiboat building, I sure wish he'd fill us in on what he's doing in Chile & for how long. After all, isn't this group also about the lifestyles of it's members? I like to think so. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Rather than greed and profit, wouldn't it be reasonable to help Alex. Alex > has given weeks if not months and years of his time to make this group a > success and he deserves the same consideration. He wants to sell and an > unfinished boat is a problem. It is expensive to move as is, which eats up > its value to anyone else. > > I have heard many times that origami boats have been built and launched in 3 > weeks. Why not do this now? Get Alex's boat launched. Once in the water, > with some sails she can be taken somewhere convenient and finished. She > would be worth a lot more than she is now. > > Surely this is the reasonable solution, given the time Alex has given this > group. What is the big deal? Anyone living anywhere near Alex, or able to > get there in a boat, if you don't have a family to support surely you can > put in a week or two of your time, finish the boat and get her launched. > With summer approaching this is the perfect time. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:41 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > I don't need a fat profit. I don't need any more money than is > trickling in . It's summer here and I need a job like a chicken needs > Colonel Saunders.Greed is not my master. Its been suggested that the > light sandblasting and a few days welding is worth $9,000. Who's > giving these quotes. > I think Alaska Joe Earsly would be far ahead if he sold his hull and > bought Alex's, there is that much more done on it. > I saw no distortion on the hull, except where Alex's landlord > overwelded the anchor well, something another BC builder routinely > does.. Any other distortion could be cranked out in a few minutes. > The deal you are offered is extremely rare and of no use to someone > who is not in Australia.Go for it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a > hull > > > together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I > would > > > also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > > significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of > the > > > same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > > selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > > Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > > C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > > recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > > arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > > builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > > Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be > me. > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > reconditioned engine, g/ > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K > AUD, 10 minutes from my > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior > removed for a refit then the > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no > rust anywhere in the > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. > Below the WL it needs some > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more > water than I want, > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of > upside in finishing it, one > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at > a fat profit, thereby funding > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's > likely to be less than > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13645|13594|2007-06-09 14:04:00|Mike|6011|Colin, A couple of years ago I was at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard, doing some contract work on a fuel tanker. The Lloyds inspector was an English fellow, based out of New York. Through the course of our discussions at the local watering hole, he told me about (TWI)The Welding Institute, in the U.K. . I think that, at one time, you made reference to the same organization, though I may be wrong. Just in case it wasn't you, the web address is: http://www.twi.co.uk It may be that your local suppliers only list rods in megapascals, in which case the rods you'd be looking for would, more appropriately, be called E41010(cellulose/sodium) and E41011(cellulose/potassium). In North America, E6010/11 is an AWS designation, based on the imperial system, whereas E41010/11 is a CSA designation, therefore, metric. To further complicate things, the ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) uses "F" numbers, which group rods according to filler metal & coating types. Then, there are the supplier's numbers. Lincoln, for instance, calls their E6011 a "Fleetweld 35+". Perhaps, if you told your supplier that you require a fast-freeze, deep penetrating electrode for welding mild steel - of "x" designation - they might say, "oh yeah, we've got plenty of that!" LMAO Take care, Mike P.S. I'd bet that an instructor at the local welding school could steer you in the right direction. > > Dunno whereabouts in the world you are, but in Britain it's near > enough impossible to buy any sort of mild steel rod other than 6013. > Most regular welding suppliers have never even heard of 6011 - which > is a pity as I'd like to play with a box and see if they're as good as > folk on this forum describe. > > To illustrate my point, A Google (Web) for "6011 welding electrode" > returned 13,500 hits, yet a Google (UK) for the same returned just 51, > and these were either irrelevant or were reference articles - > certainly Google didn't reveal a single vendor offering to sell 'em. > > It seems that for 'unusual' (i.e. unusual in the UK) rods you really > need to track down a specialist supplier - which will probably imply > a special order and the additional cost and delay of this. > > > BTW - if anyone's interested in using 6010/11 rods for cutting steel, > there's a good description/ explanation over at: > http://www.steamengine.com.au/misc/welding/index.html > > You may also notice that the text reads: > "For metal cutting these rods work best for thin sections of material, > about 1/2" thick plate and 1" round bar being the maximum for > efficient operation. Thicker material can be cut ..." > > "THIN SECTIONS" !! Comments like this really put the description > 'deep penetration rod' into context. > > But what continues to puzzle me is WHY, when the 6011 is such a > standard and commonly available rod in North America, this grade can't > be sourced in Britain for love nor money. Can't speak for mainland > Europe - maybe someone there could comment ? > > Colin > | 13646|13566|2007-06-09 14:05:35|Tom|Re: Using 6011|You would use it the same as any other rods on mild steel, everything on the boat except for the stainless. As Brent says clean an prep but that should be done anyway nomatter what youre welding with Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Volkwein" To: Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:20 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Using 6011 > Brent: > > Ok, other than 'joint preperation" etc., where, and how would you use > a 6013 on an origomi boat? > carlvolkwein > > brentswain38 wrote: > 6013 doesn't penetrate or burn thru crap as well as 6011, in fact > nothing else does. It will be oK if you goudge out or bevel edges for > penetration more and grind out any crap before welding over .Make sure > the steel is clean before welding with 6013. It's a much smoother weld. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" > wrote: >> >> I can't get 6011 but can get 6013 which I suspect is much the same > rod. I'd >> be glad to know of any special tricks to get a better job too. >> >> >> >> Jonathan. >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's > on, when. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13647|13412|2007-06-09 14:06:34|mickeyolaf|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull was started. It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the project buy the deals as they come along. Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u start it seems to come together. Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the costs, buy the deals. First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. Red roses work best. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total > failure. > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire > investment, in cash and labor. > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much > > the > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. > > If > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost > > opportunity. > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > opportunity = value x time > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal > > for > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) > > is > > willing to pay. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > >> > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 > > minutes from my > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed > > for > > a refit then the > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust > > anywhere in the > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the > > WL it needs some > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than > > I > > want, > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in > > finishing it, one > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat > > profit, thereby funding > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely > > to be less than > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 13648|13412|2007-06-09 15:27:15|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I agree completely with Gary. Building the hull first raises the risk of failure, because people most often run out of money and time. If you study successful projects, you will find those that succeed most often have all the parts on hand before they start building. The project completes in minimum time, with minimum additional cost. When rebuilding old sports cars we always bought a parts cars up front. Buying new parts from dealers was prohibitive, if they were available. Wrecker prices were not much better, because they would be driven by dealer prices. The same is true for marine. Buying parts new is prohibitive. Used from salvage yards is not much better. A good yard knows the "new" price, and will try and prices as close as possible to this, depending on the condition of the parts. Unless you know what you are doing, salvage yards can be a bad deal. A reasonably well outfitted boat with a rotten deck would be a good starting point in building a boat to a budget. You can often find these boats in places where there is lots of rain. Buy her cheap and strip the gear you need. If seen people do well with this approach. As they strip the marine gear, they convert the boat to a permanent liveaboard, never intended to go to sea again. Typically they add a plywood box and roof over boat - along with household doors and windows. They can then live at a marina for the less than it typically costs to rent an apartment, gain knowledge and experience from other boaters, and sell the liveaboard when the boat is finished to stock the cruising kitty. Also, the experience they gain in removing the marine gear and building the plywood box over the "parts" boat is a good test of how well they are likely to do building their own boat. I remember one "builder" years ago, he made a living converting hulls to permanent liveaboard. He shopped the coast for "project" boats, stripped the marine gear and sold this for big $$. Then he build a box on top of the hulls and sold them to renters. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total failure. A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire investment, in cash and labor. So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much > the > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. > If > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost > opportunity. > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > opportunity = value x time > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal > for > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) > is > willing to pay. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: >> >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > reconditioned engine, g/ > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 > minutes from my > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed > for > a refit then the > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust > anywhere in the > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the > WL it needs some > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than > I > want, > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in > finishing it, one > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat > profit, thereby funding > the cruising kitty some more. > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely > to be less than > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > PDW > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13649|13412|2007-06-10 06:08:18|seeratlas|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Don't forget to promise her that she gets to pick the interior colors.....then LOOK OUT!!!! hehehehe, here comes chartreuse and mauve.... :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull > was started. > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember > sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay > now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. > I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the > project buy the deals as they come along. > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of > hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the > order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay > two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u > start it seems to come together. > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane > people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane > gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week > knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the > next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the > costs, buy the deals. > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. > Red roses work best. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the > wrong > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is > good, then > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all > worth > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is > essentially total > > failure. > > > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with > the hull. > > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else > until it > > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly > your entire > > investment, in cash and labor. > > > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the > hull until > > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck > hardware, > > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes > wrong you > > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing > much value, > > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on > Ebay. If > > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So > you've got > > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are > paying for. > > > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you > could buy a > > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the > water, > > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could > build the > > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it > go way up. > > > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in > boats, > > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects > how much > > > the > > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often > reflects how > > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are > hidden costs. > > > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can > use her. > > > If > > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has > value - > > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater > the lost > > > opportunity. > > > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is > unpredictable. > > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is > finished and > > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > > opportunity = value x time > > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does > the value > > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and > bad deal > > > for > > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone > (the buyer) > > > is > > > willing to pay. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > > On > > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > >> > > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a > hull > > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I > would > > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of > the > > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be > me. > > > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K > AUD, 10 > > > minutes from my > > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior > removed > > > for > > > a refit then the > > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no > rust > > > anywhere in the > > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. > Below the > > > WL it needs some > > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more > water than > > > I > > > want, > > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of > upside in > > > finishing it, one > > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it > at a fat > > > profit, thereby funding > > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and > it's likely > > > to be less than > > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 13650|13594|2007-06-10 06:08:23|richytill|6011|Jonathan, Vortic Marine by Murex in England is an ABS certified welding rod in the UK. It is used for ship-building, unless it is a personal preference to use 6010/6011, there is no real reason not to use Vortic Marine to build a small boat. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Despite my best efforts I can't get 6011 rods. I've been offered some 6010, > "but we've not got many left" > > > > Thanks for all the help so far. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13651|13594|2007-06-10 06:08:27|richytill|6011|Colin, I am located on the British Columbia Coast of Canada where I built "My Island" but have welded for CJB pipelines and others in the UK. I can assure you that 6011 is available in the UK. It is marketed as Fleetwed 35 by the Lincoln Electric Co. On pipeline, when a tin of rods becomes suspect for any reason, or has been left open, it is generally ditched. Perhaps you could contact a pipeline company and ask if they have any Fleetweld 35 left over from a job. I did a short job for a Fab Shop in northern England that had a stack of 6010 in a forgotten corner--no one would use it: they were not sure what to do with it and said the appearance of the weld was too crappy. It is true that major structural steelwork is routinely welded with your equivalent of 6013 in Europe, Asia and Africa. In North America, API, ABS, ASME, CWB etc. does not recognise the capacity of 6013 in the way that other organizations do. Nevertheless, Murex and BOC have supplied a 6013 type rod (could have been E317 Vodex from memory) for welding oil-tankers, ocean liners, bridges and blast furnaces all over the world. Most of these structures are still intact. Once again, it becomes a case of choosing a proceedure that is available, practical and afforable for you. If you have a welding machine that runs 6013 well and you do careful edge prep--you can weld a quality hull. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Colin, > A couple of years ago I was at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard, doing some > contract work on a fuel tanker. The Lloyds inspector was an English > fellow, based out of New York. Through the course of our discussions > at the local watering hole, he told me about (TWI)The Welding > Institute, in the U.K. . > I think that, at one time, you made reference to the same > organization, though I may be wrong. Just in case it wasn't you, the > web address is: http://www.twi.co.uk > It may be that your local suppliers only list rods in megapascals, in > which case the rods you'd be looking for would, more appropriately, > be called E41010(cellulose/sodium) and E41011(cellulose/potassium). > In North America, E6010/11 is an AWS designation, based on the > imperial system, whereas E41010/11 is a CSA designation, therefore, > metric. To further complicate things, the ASME(American Society of > Mechanical Engineers) uses "F" numbers, which group rods according to > filler metal & coating types. > Then, there are the supplier's numbers. Lincoln, for instance, calls > their E6011 a "Fleetweld 35+". > Perhaps, if you told your supplier that you require a fast-freeze, > deep penetrating electrode for welding mild steel - of "x" > designation - they might say, "oh yeah, we've got plenty of that!" > LMAO > Take care, > Mike > P.S. I'd bet that an instructor at the local welding school could > steer you in the right direction. > > > > > > Dunno whereabouts in the world you are, but in Britain it's near > > enough impossible to buy any sort of mild steel rod other than > 6013. > > Most regular welding suppliers have never even heard of 6011 - which > > is a pity as I'd like to play with a box and see if they're as good > as > > folk on this forum describe. > > > > To illustrate my point, A Google (Web) for "6011 welding electrode" > > returned 13,500 hits, yet a Google (UK) for the same returned just > 51, > > and these were either irrelevant or were reference articles - > > certainly Google didn't reveal a single vendor offering to sell 'em. > > > > It seems that for 'unusual' (i.e. unusual in the UK) rods you really > > need to track down a specialist supplier - which will probably > imply > > a special order and the additional cost and delay of this. > > > > > > BTW - if anyone's interested in using 6010/11 rods for cutting > steel, > > there's a good description/ explanation over at: > > http://www.steamengine.com.au/misc/welding/index.html > > > > You may also notice that the text reads: > > "For metal cutting these rods work best for thin sections of > material, > > about 1/2" thick plate and 1" round bar being the maximum for > > efficient operation. Thicker material can be cut ..." > > > > "THIN SECTIONS" !! Comments like this really put the description > > 'deep penetration rod' into context. > > > > But what continues to puzzle me is WHY, when the 6011 is such a > > standard and commonly available rod in North America, this grade > can't > > be sourced in Britain for love nor money. Can't speak for mainland > > Europe - maybe someone there could comment ? > > > > Colin > > > | 13652|13594|2007-06-10 06:08:38|richytill|6011|Colin, if you want to try: http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.asp? p=15993 This is the Lincoln Electric UK site. If you have DC, 6010 does the same job as 6011. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Colin, > A couple of years ago I was at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard, doing some > contract work on a fuel tanker. The Lloyds inspector was an English > fellow, based out of New York. Through the course of our discussions > at the local watering hole, he told me about (TWI)The Welding > Institute, in the U.K. . > I think that, at one time, you made reference to the same > organization, though I may be wrong. Just in case it wasn't you, the > web address is: http://www.twi.co.uk > It may be that your local suppliers only list rods in megapascals, in > which case the rods you'd be looking for would, more appropriately, > be called E41010(cellulose/sodium) and E41011(cellulose/potassium). > In North America, E6010/11 is an AWS designation, based on the > imperial system, whereas E41010/11 is a CSA designation, therefore, > metric. To further complicate things, the ASME(American Society of > Mechanical Engineers) uses "F" numbers, which group rods according to > filler metal & coating types. > Then, there are the supplier's numbers. Lincoln, for instance, calls > their E6011 a "Fleetweld 35+". > Perhaps, if you told your supplier that you require a fast-freeze, > deep penetrating electrode for welding mild steel - of "x" > designation - they might say, "oh yeah, we've got plenty of that!" > LMAO > Take care, > Mike > P.S. I'd bet that an instructor at the local welding school could > steer you in the right direction. > > > > > > Dunno whereabouts in the world you are, but in Britain it's near > > enough impossible to buy any sort of mild steel rod other than > 6013. > > Most regular welding suppliers have never even heard of 6011 - which > > is a pity as I'd like to play with a box and see if they're as good > as > > folk on this forum describe. > > > > To illustrate my point, A Google (Web) for "6011 welding electrode" > > returned 13,500 hits, yet a Google (UK) for the same returned just > 51, > > and these were either irrelevant or were reference articles - > > certainly Google didn't reveal a single vendor offering to sell 'em. > > > > It seems that for 'unusual' (i.e. unusual in the UK) rods you really > > need to track down a specialist supplier - which will probably > imply > > a special order and the additional cost and delay of this. > > > > > > BTW - if anyone's interested in using 6010/11 rods for cutting > steel, > > there's a good description/ explanation over at: > > http://www.steamengine.com.au/misc/welding/index.html > > > > You may also notice that the text reads: > > "For metal cutting these rods work best for thin sections of > material, > > about 1/2" thick plate and 1" round bar being the maximum for > > efficient operation. Thicker material can be cut ..." > > > > "THIN SECTIONS" !! Comments like this really put the description > > 'deep penetration rod' into context. > > > > But what continues to puzzle me is WHY, when the 6011 is such a > > standard and commonly available rod in North America, this grade > can't > > be sourced in Britain for love nor money. Can't speak for mainland > > Europe - maybe someone there could comment ? > > > > Colin > > > | 13653|13594|2007-06-10 06:08:55|Paul J. Thompson|Re: 6011|Hi Colin, If you send me an address I will send you some 6011. Here in NZ there is only one supplier (that I know of) that is Weldwell. Don't know if they are in the UK but can find out for you. BOC does not have 6011. I found out about 6011 on this site and have used them to weld up the Swain type pilothouse that I have added to my boat La Chica. The weld bead is not as smooth as you get with 6013 (also the common rod here) but penetration is superb. If you are not careful when you start out, you can blow a hole in 3mm just as easily as 6013 can do it in 1.6mm. But once you adapt, it is a very controllable rod and certainly with 3mm you penetrate all the way. Regards, Paul sae140 wrote: > Dunno whereabouts in the world you are, but in Britain it's near > enough impossible to buy any sort of mild steel rod other than 6013. > Most regular welding suppliers have never even heard of 6011 - which > is a pity as I'd like to play with a box and see if they're as good as > folk on this forum describe. > | 13654|13654|2007-06-10 06:09:27|richytill|Marine Welding|In the UK Vortic Marine seems to be a viable rod of choice. It is a 6013 stick electrode that meets ABS etc. See: http://www.murexwelding.co.uk/ If you can find 6011/6010 in the UK easily and you like it, fine; if not: Vortic Marine will meet code. Hope this helps. rt| 13655|13654|2007-06-11 19:49:12|djackson99@aol.com|Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|I am trying to repair holes in a 1/6" thick aluminum tank with MIG but I always end up with a pin hole or two in the weld.? What are some tricks I can try to learn? Thanks --Doug J Tulsa, Ok ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13656|13540|2007-06-11 19:49:37|mkriley48|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|hello, I have had some experience with large capacitor banks on a boat. I was doing a refit on a swedish 104' motorboat that had a ad-a-phase capacitor bank. It was to make the 3phase 440v boat compatible with the American system. It consisted of about 20 capacitors the size of 5gallon gas cans in a rack in the engine room. Long story short water came in the port and sprayed over the capactors. There was a clap like a blasting cap and I could not hear for days. I have no doubt that had I been nearer or been in a flooding situation I would be dead. As it was I probably have lost some of my hearing. I think that the amount of electricity needed to power a boat makes for a very dangerous situation in the event of trouble and a method of controlled rapid discharge is required. Remember one car battery can kill you easily in salt water. mike| 13657|13540|2007-06-11 19:49:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Hi, David - On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 02:47:27AM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > Lots of interesting things happening with capacitor storage. Maxwell > technologies is one player, that was born out of the SDI initiative. > There is also a company, in Texas I believe, that is suppose to be very > near deliver of a very large system for automobile usage. Here we are > talking about a cap large enough to power a "car" for reasonable > distances. Of course proof is in the pudding and they are a highly > secretive company. Unsurprisingly so - since the competitive advantage in this field is a very narrow gap. > How Super Caps would work out for boating is an interesting question. > There is also the issue of safety, as you note the discharge currents > can be massive. I think that this can be handled pretty easily with a little forethought - much like handling, e.g., propane. The "user interface" to batteries is currently pretty sloppy, since dropping a wrench across the terminals isn't a catastrophe; dealin with caps, you'd need a better design (say, a simple plastic interlock that only allows one terminal to be exposed at any time - or a built-in resettable fuse that will trip at, say, 500A.) I'm really looking forward to the day when caps of this sort are a commonly-available, consumer-level item. (I also happen to be a big fan of the Hypercar and the Tesla car - but don't tell anybody. :) http://www.remyc.com/hypercar.html http://teslamotors.com/ -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 13658|13594|2007-06-11 19:50:43|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Colin, > A couple of years ago I was at the Grand Bahamas Shipyard, doing some > contract work on a fuel tanker. The Lloyds inspector was an English > fellow, based out of New York. Through the course of our discussions > at the local watering hole, he told me about (TWI)The Welding > Institute, in the U.K. . > I think that, at one time, you made reference to the same > organization, though I may be wrong. Just in case it wasn't you, the > web address is: http://www.twi.co.uk Hi Mike - not me - but thanks for that link - I'm on to it. > It may be that your local suppliers only list rods in megapascals, in > which case the rods you'd be looking for would, more appropriately, > be called E41010(cellulose/sodium) and E41011(cellulose/potassium). > In North America, E6010/11 is an AWS designation, based on the > imperial system, whereas E41010/11 is a CSA designation, therefore, > metric. To further complicate things, the ASME(American Society of > Mechanical Engineers) uses "F" numbers, which group rods according to > filler metal & coating types. This might indeed be one cause of the confusion. As one example of what I'm talking about - take a look at Bohler Thysson's site: "http://www.perfectwelding.co.uk/consumables-mild-steel.htm" That's pretty typical - lots of Lo-Hys etc, and 6010's for pipelines, but no 6011's. Also ESAB - one of Europe's most respected brands: "http://products.esab.com/Templates/T095.asp?id=55596&MainHeadCode=Mild" Nothing there either. > Then, there are the supplier's numbers. Lincoln, for instance, calls > their E6011 a "Fleetweld 35+". > P.S. I'd bet that an instructor at the local welding school could > steer you in the right direction. Yes - you'd think so wouldn't you ? I'm out of touch with colleges these days, but just in case anyone thinks I'm exaggerating the rarity of 6011 over here, take a look at: "http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/learn_proc/SMA/crc04/cellulosics/fleetwelds/fleetwelds_arr.html" "http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/learn_proc/SMA/crc04/cellulosics/cellulosics_off.html" These are logs of a guy who learned to weld and took basic quals many years back, and proceeded to take a Doctrate in Hydrogen Distribution in Weld Zones. He returned to basic stick welding after some 14 years, and these are his logs and comments of re-tracing basic welding procedures with the advantage of an advanced education in this field. In all these years of welding he'd never used a cellulosic rod and you will notice that he talks about FleetWeld rods as if they are an extremely rare and endangered species !! I think his logs are worth reading in their own right - as he mentions quite a few problems that he encountered using Fleetwelds, but it's the relative rarity of cellulosic rods (over here) which confirms my own findings. Even while based at a Welding College, the guy still had to source his own 6011's ! I'm still scratching my head wondering why cellulosic rods never became a 'standard' over here, and the only ideas I have is that *maybe* they don't work so well on 50 Hz (no - I don't believe that either), or maybe it's because historically we had so little demand for pipe-welding (compared with North America), and by the time the North Sea Field was discovered, most pipeliners were using heavy-current TIG, and so cellulosics simply never caught on, and remain to this day a specialist rods, and are seldom (if ever) found in a general welding shop. Many thanks for the help Colin| 13659|13594|2007-06-11 19:51:19|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Colin, I am located on the British Columbia Coast of Canada where I > built "My Island" but have welded for CJB pipelines and others in > the UK. I can assure you that 6011 is available in the UK. It is > marketed as Fleetwed 35 by the Lincoln Electric Co. On pipeline, > when a tin of rods becomes suspect for any reason, or has been left > open, it is generally ditched. Perhaps you could contact a pipeline > company and ask if they have any Fleetweld 35 left over from a job. > I'm REALLY appreciating the help being offered on this thread. So it seems 6011 is around - albeit under disguise (!) > I did a short job for a Fab Shop in northern England that had a stack > of 6010 in a forgotten corner--no one would use it: they were not > sure what to do with it and said the appearance of the weld was too > crappy. Your comment is EXACTLY what I've been finding. I asked a couple of my pro welder mates if they had any boxes of 6011 lying around I could scrounge half-a-dozen rods from - all I got was some curious and very defensive looks. Kind of "thems be Black Magic rods, thems be. We don't use 'em " > > It is true that major structural steelwork is routinely welded with > your equivalent of 6013 in Europe, Asia and Africa. In North > America, API, ABS, ASME, CWB etc. does not recognise the capacity of > 6013 in the way that other organizations do. Nevertheless, Murex and > BOC have supplied a 6013 type rod (could have been E317 Vodex from > memory) for welding oil-tankers, ocean liners, bridges and blast > furnaces all over the world. Most of these structures are still > intact. > > Once again, it becomes a case of choosing a proceedure that is > available, practical and afforable for you. If you have a welding > machine that runs 6013 well and you do careful edge prep--you can > weld a quality hull. > > rt > Yes, you're absolutely right, availablity and affordability are the prime considerations (well, they're certainly mine). Would you care to hazard a guess as to WHY the 6013 rutile rod became favoured in one part of the world for general welding, whereas cellulosic rods became standard elsewhere ? I've only just started to question this. Because I learned on rutile rods, it never occured to me that there might be a cleaner method of arc-welding. When you stop and think about it - shoving sand into a weld pool, expecting the molten steel to always carry the fused sand to the surface, is asking a lot - no wonder there's always the risk of slag entrapment. Thanks Colin| 13660|13660|2007-06-11 19:51:38|Alex Christie|Swain Sailboat|There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain sailboat for sale, for those interested: SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13661|13288|2007-06-11 19:52:17|Alex Christie|Alex's boat|Some of you are curious as to the status and reasons surrounding the sale of my boat hull, as featured in the boatbuilding video. I can't go into detailed reasons why some things tanked with my boat project, though focussing on the making of the film, and the costs in time and money for making the film were factors, coupled with liberal sprinklings of the normal human issues of love, death, depression and changes beyond one's control all had their part. Fortunately I am now clear of some major hurdles and ready to carry on, even possibly with my boat hull at some point. As to those curious about my sojourn in South America, I fulfilled a life-long dream to learn Spanish, and to see something of Latin America, it's people and the land. And it got me out of being buried inside myself, without a doubt, thanks to the generous care, friendship and love of a friend there. Going there, having a change from the scenic but culturally flat landscape of Comox Valley also was a considerable charge to my previously compromised nervous system and I have returned excited to see more of the world beyond the trees surrounding my property. Trees are pretty to look at, but they don't lambada. I could go on and on about the things I learned and saw, but it's totally off-topic from the mandate of this group, so I'll leave it as a mystery. I still believe that Brent's system of building, and philosophy of doing things yourself instead of depending on buying consumer goods to fit out a boat are all ingredients for success for the budget-minded builder who just wants to get on the water before they need a pacemaker or a nurse. I also still intend on attaining boat-hood regardless of some set-backs, as the sea is in my blood, and it will be more than likely in a Swain boat, without doubt. Since the perception of the value of my boat hull on this site has been effectively reduced to scrap value or nearly zero, I will no longer attempt to promote it's sale here, as it appears to be a waste of time. I have had serious contenders for the hull but they have dropped away in the face of what they heard about it, though I have every confidence in its integrity. Even a ragged edge on a scupper cut-out was never intended to be a permanent fixture, but it has somehow tranfigured the hull into a white elephant in the court of public opinion. Oh well, people who know what they are looking at, know what they are looking at, and the rest should by all means stay away from buying something they are not absolutely certain of. I have had people ask strange questions about the hull which reflect huge inaccuracies about it, and where that came from I have no idea. One visitor said he heard the water tank is inaccessable, which I found highly amusing since even Andre the Giant could have gotten his big head inside each side of the access hatch to look inside it. Wonders of the internet for passing around a message which gets increasinly distorted over time I guess. As for rusting out the outside skin, anyone who knows about corrosion should know that true corrosion happens in the presence of an electrolyte, and showers of fresh water on my hull will not destroy it. Oddly enough, looking down from the ferry Queen of Alberni (or one of the queens) on a recent trip across from Vancouver, I was amused to look down from the top deck to see that the big square-sectioned rub strake down close to the water seemed largely bare steel, with a bare hint of old black paint on it. Being out of the salt water (the lovely electrolytic solution that it is), the strake was just fine on that old steel ship. Evidently you can't oxidize oxide, so it seemed to have rusted to one order then stopped or slowed severly, with further oxidization stymied by the first layer of rust. Well, lastly I am unsure about continuing moderatorship of the group and may look to pass the torch to someone else at this point, so that I can get my life back in order and focus on the meaningful priorties of my existence. Alex PS I have found a Swain boat for sale, and I am contemplating selling almost everything I own and moving onboard as soon as possible. See you on the water some day perhaps , and I will tell you about the rest of my adventures down south over a glass of that amazingly $2/liter fine Chilean wine that goes down way to easily. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13662|13662|2007-06-11 19:52:34|drddias|mig welding|Brent, Dan, You are long time boat builders. may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. gas and flush. It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? thank you eduardo| 13663|13594|2007-06-11 19:53:26|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > If you send me an address I will send you some 6011. Here in NZ there is > only one supplier (that I know of) that is Weldwell. Don't know if they > are in the UK but can find out for you. BOC does not have 6011. > > I found out about 6011 on this site and have used them to weld up the > Swain type pilothouse that I have added to my boat La Chica. The weld > bead is not as smooth as you get with 6013 (also the common rod here) > but penetration is superb. If you are not careful when you start out, > you can blow a hole in 3mm just as easily as 6013 can do it in 1.6mm. > > But once you adapt, it is a very controllable rod and certainly with 3mm > you penetrate all the way. > > Regards, > > Paul > Hi Paul - I'd like to play with half-a-dozen rods, just to scare myself silly (!) I'll send you a PM - will be visiting NZ at some point in the not too distant future, and I'd like to return the favour in liquid refreshment - assuming you're not globe-trotting in La Chica, of course. 'best Colin| 13664|13412|2007-06-12 00:28:45|peter_d_wiley|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total > failure. > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire > investment, in cash and labor. > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! I agree with you. On this logic, I looked for suitable land, and bought it. I had the 3 phase power put on. I built a house. I built my boatbuilding shed. I've accumulated 'stuff', had bronze portholes cast to machine up in the winter hours (I have milling machines & lathes in a room off my living room - pays to design your own house) etc. Collected stainless steel for bitts, doublers, trim etc. Piles of chain in the yard. Big stacks of timber air drying under cover, ready for the thickness planer. Plywood scrounged and ready. Tools I didn't have acquired on the cheap (just got offered a 500A MIG welder for $100, for example. I don't need a 500A MIG, however). Right now I'm looking at spending some 4 months at sea starting in August. Get back sometime next Feb (there's a break in the middle). After that I expect to have both the time and cash to build the boat. I'm not yet committed to start and if a good deal comes along I can take advantage of it without any tears. Once I start on the hull I am committed and until it's in the water, it's a pile of scrap taking up valuable project space. No doubt I could have had a boat finished by now, but the process wouldn't have been enjoyable and I wouldn't have some valuable infrastructure left over afterwards. PDW| 13665|13660|2007-06-12 00:28:46|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Swain Sailboat|Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 13666|13540|2007-06-12 00:29:13|David A. Frantz|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Hi Ben; A few links o some Rockwell and Oshkosh related stuff: http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2000/10oshkosh.php I believe this is the article that first caught my eye: http://www.designnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6358116 As to high energy capacitors and safety I'd have to say that is a serious issue and would have to be dealt with in the design. For example, 20 some odd years ago I had a conversation with my brother about a wrench dropped across a large cap for a radar installation. In this case the wrench literally was vaporized. I have no doubt that a cap discharged against the hull of a steel boat could blow a hole through it. Fortunately the only cap blow up I've been around was on a smallish motor drive, that just a filter cap - power storage caps are a whole different game based on the energy available. As you note something has to be addressed in relation to safety. If the research efforts ever result in any viable product then I expect that something will be done. After all we can't have the Saturday afternoon mechanic turning himself into a crispy critter. Excluding the safety issues the big concern I have about caps, is trying to leverage their good points in a ship. In a land vehicle you have opportunities to regain energy on events of negative acceleration. Plus it is possible to put spurts of energy to good use at times. On a boat I just don't see the huge opportunities for the caps to play a huge role in efficiency. I've played around with various design ideas in my head related to electric propulsion. (it is the best I can do right now, that is engineer in my head) One thing this sort of approach opens up is a more viable set of electrically driven apparatus. For example no need for twelve volt wrenches when you have a high voltage power source. Even the layout of the boat opens up as it is much easier to place parts of the system ot get the weight distributed right. As to the Tesla, yeah it is cool, but if I think about that then I won't be concentrating on boating. There are to many unobtainable things on my mind as it is. Thanks Dave Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Hi, David - > > On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 02:47:27AM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > Hi Ben; > > > > Lots of interesting things happening with capacitor storage. Maxwell > > technologies is one player, that was born out of the SDI initiative. > > There is also a company, in Texas I believe, that is suppose to be very > > near deliver of a very large system for automobile usage. Here we are > > talking about a cap large enough to power a "car" for reasonable > > distances. Of course proof is in the pudding and they are a highly > > secretive company. > > Unsurprisingly so - since the competitive advantage in this field is a > very narrow gap. > > > How Super Caps would work out for boating is an interesting question. > > There is also the issue of safety, as you note the discharge currents > > can be massive. > > I think that this can be handled pretty easily with a little forethought > - much like handling, e.g., propane. The "user interface" to batteries > is currently pretty sloppy, since dropping a wrench across the terminals > isn't a catastrophe; dealin with caps, you'd need a better design (say, > a simple plastic interlock that only allows one terminal to be exposed > at any time - or a built-in resettable fuse that will trip at, say, > 500A.) I'm really looking forward to the day when caps of this sort are > a commonly-available, consumer-level item. > > (I also happen to be a big fan of the Hypercar and the Tesla car - but > don't tell anybody. :) > > http://www.remyc.com/hypercar.html > http://teslamotors.com/ > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 13667|13654|2007-06-12 00:29:36|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|I used to make some spending money welding aluminum tanks for RV camper hot water heaters. Lots of people would forget to winterize them and they would freeze and split wide open. I would pick up a scrap pile of them from the local RV place and weld them up for 20 bucks a piece. I guaranteed no leaks. I could do them in about 5 minutes a piece using a TIG welder. Every once in a while I'd get one with internal corrosion that would thin the walls to the point where they were difficult to weld. I'd toss those, because they probably wouldn't last long anyway. Tig welding is great for repairing aluminum tanks. If it is cracked the crack opens right up in front of the weld puddle so it is very easy to follow. You get a keyhole right through the tank wall that you fill continuously. The keyhole disappears when you reach the end of the crack. So I'd find someone with a TIG welder. Mig welding is very fast on aluminum , but you don't have very much control. It takes a real pro to fill holes in thin aluminum with Mig. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 10:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks >I am trying to repair holes in a 1/6" thick aluminum tank with MIG but I >always end up with a pin hole or two in the weld.? What are some tricks I >can try to learn? > > Thanks --Doug J > Tulsa, Ok > > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13668|13540|2007-06-12 00:29:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 03:46:15PM -0000, mkriley48 wrote: > > I think that the amount of electricity needed to power a boat makes > for a very dangerous situation in the event of trouble and a method of > controlled rapid discharge is required. Remember one car battery can > kill you easily in salt water. Mike, I'm afraid that last bit is a myth; it's sort of like the one that claims your battery will get discharged if you set it on the ground (both come from a misunderstanding or misapplication of unfamiliar terms.) A car battery puts out 12 volts - and salt water or not, 12 volts can barely generate a perceptible current across a human body. It doesn't matter what the max output current of the battery is - unless the series resistance of the load (i.e., the human body) is low enough, not much can happen - and that generally runs about 200,000 ohms even when wet, which means a current of 0.00006A at 12 volts. If you go to a boat show, one of the gel battery manufacturers always has a display in which their battery is sitting completely immersed in water. Both their booth people _and_ the customers are constantly sticking their hands in that aquarium. That wouldn't be happening if there was any risk whatsoever. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13669|13540|2007-06-12 00:30:17|Aaron Williams|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Ben My take on using capacitors would be for storage cells that discharge directley back into the DC drive motor. If you use back EMF. your work load from the battery bank will drop dramaticaly. With the combination of wind generation, regenerative drive motor and 10kw hygrogen gen set. A sailboat could be 100% self contained. Dont forget Solar power. The excess power will always be used for the water maker and hygrogen fuel generator when needed. Some carbon fiber scuba tanks will hold lots of compressed hydrogen. www.rexResearch.com has enough info to keep one overwelmed for a very long time. Ben Okopnik wrote: Hi, David - On Sat, Jun 09, 2007 at 02:47:27AM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > Lots of interesting things happening with capacitor storage. Maxwell > technologies is one player, that was born out of the SDI initiative. > There is also a company, in Texas I believe, that is suppose to be very > near deliver of a very large system for automobile usage. Here we are > talking about a cap large enough to power a "car" for reasonable > distances. Of course proof is in the pudding and they are a highly > secretive company. Unsurprisingly so - since the competitive advantage in this field is a very narrow gap. > How Super Caps would work out for boating is an interesting question. > There is also the issue of safety, as you note the discharge currents > can be massive. I think that this can be handled pretty easily with a little forethought - much like handling, e.g., propane. The "user interface" to batteries is currently pretty sloppy, since dropping a wrench across the terminals isn't a catastrophe; dealin with caps, you'd need a better design (say, a simple plastic interlock that only allows one terminal to be exposed at any time - or a built-in resettable fuse that will trip at, say, 500A.) I'm really looking forward to the day when caps of this sort are a commonly-available, consumer-level item. (I also happen to be a big fan of the Hypercar and the Tesla car - but don't tell anybody. :) http://www.remyc.com/hypercar.html http://teslamotors.com/ -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13670|13540|2007-06-12 04:03:38|seeratlas|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|In my younger days, I got fed up with the expense and poor performance of the then available diving lights so I rigged up a std 12 volt motorcycle battery with what amounted to a bourdon (sp?) tube of surgical tubing from the vent wrapped vertically around and around so that the sea water could compress the air to equalize the bat, but not get all the way to the electrolyte. I duct taped this thing to an improvised frame holding a std. auto hi beam headlight (don't turn it on till its under water :) heheheh) and used this set up for years. Got hours of incredible lobster finding light of the California coast at night, (I used twin 70's) but drew the attention of a LOT of big things that go 'bump' in the night at sea :) (sometimes you can have too MUCH light :) never expected anything to blow, or be dangerous. Had to go into the engine room of a rapidly sinking yacht one night to man an emergency pump and the entire complement of ship's 8 D batteries were there submerged about a foot and a half. I guess thinking back should have been all sorts of chlorine gas in there, but I didn't notice anything untowards, other than the possibility I might drown if they didn't get the boat turned around in a hurry LOL. Bad design and a shifting tide and breeze, left the stern quarter engine vents open to a heavy swell that kept slapping the side of the boat eventually filling the engine room with water. Sometimes you just have to wonder if some of these yacht designers have ever been off a dock. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 03:46:15PM -0000, mkriley48 wrote: > > > > I think that the amount of electricity needed to power a boat makes > > for a very dangerous situation in the event of trouble and a method of > > controlled rapid discharge is required. Remember one car battery can > > kill you easily in salt water. > > Mike, I'm afraid that last bit is a myth; it's sort of like the one that > claims your battery will get discharged if you set it on the ground > (both come from a misunderstanding or misapplication of unfamiliar > terms.) A car battery puts out 12 volts - and salt water or not, 12 > volts can barely generate a perceptible current across a human body. It > doesn't matter what the max output current of the battery is - unless > the series resistance of the load (i.e., the human body) is low enough, > not much can happen - and that generally runs about 200,000 ohms even > when wet, which means a current of 0.00006A at 12 volts. > > If you go to a boat show, one of the gel battery manufacturers always > has a display in which their battery is sitting completely immersed in > water. Both their booth people _and_ the customers are constantly > sticking their hands in that aquarium. That wouldn't be happening if > there was any risk whatsoever. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13671|13540|2007-06-12 18:31:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Tue, Jun 12, 2007 at 06:14:51AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > In my younger days, I got fed up with the expense and poor performance > of the then available diving lights so I rigged up a std 12 volt > motorcycle battery with what amounted to a bourdon (sp?) tube of > surgical tubing from the vent wrapped vertically around and around so > that the sea water could compress the air to equalize the bat, but not > get all the way to the electrolyte. I duct taped this thing to an > improvised frame holding a std. auto hi beam headlight (don't turn it > on till its under water :) heheheh) and used this set up for years. Nicely done. I once spent an interesting evening - the weather was rather Dark'n'Stormy, with many ships such as the Cutty Sark going aground on ice cubes :) - talking to a friend of Jaques Cousteau's from the early days. They used to use big fire extinguisher bottles for diving, with all sorts of rigs (some similar to ones you're describing) for pressure regulation and equalization; the light system they were using was rigged much like yours. > Got hours of incredible lobster finding light of the California coast > at night, (I used twin 70's) but drew the attention of a LOT of big > things that go 'bump' in the night at sea :) (sometimes you can have > too MUCH light :) never expected anything to blow, or be dangerous. Heh. One of the lessons I learned about having a powerful _enough_ light came from diving for shells in Puerto Rico (you can actually make a nice chunk of cash if you know what you're looking for; the guy that I was diving with was averaging ~$150/dive, and doing two dives a day. I was pretty new at it, but I was doing ~$75/dive and closing in on him. :) On a night dive just to the east of Bahia Fosforecente (Parguera? I don't recall exactly), I swam into a shallow "alley" between two reefs that gradually shoaled out as I went along. I could see maybe 10' ahead. Suddenly, I realized that A) the bottom had angled up sharply ahead of me and B) that I had a very large barracuda - which I hadn't seen because he had stayed just ahead of my light - trapped in this box formed by the reef. The 'cuda turned around, looked at me blocking its exit - OOOPS!!! - and opened its mouth, showing me its large collection of choppers. *Hinting*, if you will. :) If you've never had to swim backwards at high speed, I assure you that it can be done if the impetus is strong enough. :) I've carried a *really* good Pelican dive light ever since. > Had to go into the engine room of a rapidly sinking yacht one night > to man an emergency pump and the entire complement of ship's 8 D > batteries were there submerged about a foot and a half. I guess > thinking back should have been all sorts of chlorine gas in there, but Probably not. I've made chlorine gas before, and it takes a pretty good voltage to start dissociating the stuff (220VAC, the standard Russian outlet voltage, sends up a solid white cloud of the stuff; the standard US house voltage, 110VAC, barely makes a bleach-like smell - although I may not have given it long enough.) > I didn't notice anything untowards, other than the possibility I might > drown if they didn't get the boat turned around in a hurry LOL. Bad > design and a shifting tide and breeze, left the stern quarter engine > vents open to a heavy swell that kept slapping the side of the boat > eventually filling the engine room with water. Sometimes you just > have to wonder if some of these yacht designers have ever been off a dock. I saw a powerboat in Baltimore go down for exactly that reason in the winter of 2002. And no, I don't have a whole lot of respect for so called "yacht designers" who don't have a whole bunch of on-the-water experience. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13672|13288|2007-06-12 18:32:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Alex's boat|As an alternative, rent your property and use this to buy the boat. Over time boats go down in value. Land goes up. If you sell your land to buy a boat, you end up with a boat that is typically worth less over time than you paid. If you rent the land out, you end up with the land and the boat, and the land is typically worth much more over time. We followed this strategy. Rented the house out and used part of the income to buy a boat, which we traveled on for many years. When we returned the house had gone up in value many times over, the boat had not. We used the same strategy to buy a motor home. When we returned from sailing we continued to rent the house out and used the income to buy a motor home, and pay for us to travel around North America sight seeing. It was a great way to visit friends we had met sailing over the years. Greg ________________________________ PS I have found a Swain boat for sale, and I am contemplating selling almost everything I own and moving onboard as soon as possible. See you on the water some day perhaps , and I will tell you about the rest of my adventures down south over a glass of that amazingly $2/liter fine Chilean wine that goes down way to easily.| 13673|13540|2007-06-12 18:33:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 09:49:55PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Hi Ben; > > A few links o some Rockwell and Oshkosh related stuff: > http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2000/10oshkosh.php A diesel-electric hybrid - nice to see someone going after a commercial implementation. > I believe this is the article that first caught my eye: > http://www.designnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6358116 Again, thanks! Good stuff, that. > As to high energy capacitors and safety I'd have to say that is a > serious issue and would have to be dealt with in the design. Oh, I agree - no doubt about it. However, as I've mentioned, we've managed to tame propane to the point that we can give a tank to the average idiot and have only a minimal chance of him blowing himself up. Controlling electricity is pretty trivial as compared to that. > For > example, 20 some odd years ago I had a conversation with my brother > about a wrench dropped across a large cap for a radar installation. In > this case the wrench literally was vaporized. [laugh] I'll vouch for your brother's story. I was in an Air Defense Artillery unit (HAWK) at Ft. Lewis in the 1980s, and watched someone vaporize a wrench by dropping it across a large cap in the HIPAR radar shack. > I have no doubt that a > cap discharged against the hull of a steel boat could blow a hole > through it. Fortunately the only cap blow up I've been around was on a > smallish motor drive, that just a filter cap - power storage caps are a > whole different game based on the energy available. As you note > something has to be addressed in relation to safety. If the research > efforts ever result in any viable product then I expect that something > will be done. After all we can't have the Saturday afternoon mechanic > turning himself into a crispy critter. I would think of it as the definition of /auto da fe/. :) Or perhaps an attempt to win the Darwin Award. :) But I agree: whenever it becomes a publicly-available commodity, there should (and will) be serious safety features included in these systems. > Excluding the safety issues the big concern I have about caps, is trying > to leverage their good points in a ship. In a land vehicle you have > opportunities to regain energy on events of negative acceleration. > Plus it is possible to put spurts of energy to good use at times. On a > boat I just don't see the huge opportunities for the caps to play a huge > role in efficiency. Charging with nearly zero loss? I'd give quite a lot for such a critter right now. My solar panels and my wind generator are putting out a lot of juice that gets paid out as inefficiency taxes - despite my taking a lot of care with installation, large wire diameters, and so on. Batteries are just plain bloody awful; you're constantly paying that double-conversion tax (electrical to chemical and chemical back to electrical) *and* you've got to stick to a 30-40% usable range, or (as mentioned before) you'll be buying a new kit of them soon. > I've played around with various design ideas in my head related to > electric propulsion. (it is the best I can do right now, that is > engineer in my head) One thing this sort of approach opens up is a > more viable set of electrically driven apparatus. For example no need > for twelve volt wrenches when you have a high voltage power source. This is one of those tough places in design. High voltage is just wonderful in technical terms: lights, motors, etc. become tiny and efficient, the necessary current (which is the major factor controlling wire size, switch size, battery size, etc.) becomes proportionately low, initial torques come up into reasonable range... but that one minor factor - the fact that HV kills us humans - prevents general acceptance. :) Seriously, though: with low voltage, anyone can experiment with the system - a short is ugly but (mostly) harmless, putting your fingers across Vmax does nothing harmful, and chafing through a conductor is no big deal. With high voltage, everything has to be left to professionals, a short is a disaster, and accidental contact with a live circuit means sudden expenses (including black suits) for the family. Using it around the ocean... probably not likely any time soon. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13674|13674|2007-06-12 18:33:19|sae140|Quick update on 6011 supply in UK|A quick update for anyone wanting 6011's in the UK. Having been advised of the ambiguity of the numbering system (thanks for that), I've canvassed around and this morning have received a quote for 6011's (disguised as Lincoln Nufive) from one source who will supply in 20Kg (44 lb) lots ex stock for £166. Add 17.5% VAT (Value Added Tax - bit like Purchase Tax) to that, and add (say) £15 carriage, and that's a cool £210 - or around 400 US dollars at today's exchange rates. That's about 4 or 5 times the cost of 6013's from the High Street - but at least they CAN be sourced under other names. Thanks for the help offered, and for bearing with me on this problem. Colin| 13675|13654|2007-06-12 18:33:41|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Thank you Gary I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers Pulse MIG machines. Thanks again Doug J ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13676|13660|2007-06-12 18:34:25|Gary|Re: Swain Sailboat|Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? Link shows no details. Thanks... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex Christie > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 13677|13660|2007-06-13 12:52:31|Mike|Re: Swain Sailboat|Alex, How long & how much? Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13678|13540|2007-06-13 12:53:50|jim dorey|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Ben Okopnik wrote: > Charging with nearly zero loss? I'd give quite a lot for such a critter > right now. My solar panels and my wind generator are putting out a lot > of juice that gets paid out as inefficiency taxes - despite my taking a > lot of care with installation, large wire diameters, and so on. > Batteries are just plain bloody awful; you're constantly paying that > double-conversion tax (electrical to chemical and chemical back to > electrical) *and* you've got to stick to a 30-40% usable range, or (as > mentioned before) you'll be buying a new kit of them soon. since i'm too lazy to run the numbers myself i'll let you... how about storing the energy in water? electric boilers are kind of common in industry, you could perhaps build one, run a steam engine generator from wind and solar waste electricity, the stuff that doesn't go in the batteries. i've been thinking of magnetic bearings, rare earth, permanent, be fine for stationary apps, but expensive to build. it may be possible to store some of the energy in a flywheel, a really really big one.| 13679|13660|2007-06-13 12:55:57|Mike|Re: Swain Sailboat|Gary, As Paul says, it's sold. I took a look at it while in the area. It is a 36' and, though built some time ago, has a revamped interior. When talking to the then-owner, Manny, I was surprised to learn that his wife is more of an avid, extended-voyage sailor, than he. Due to an illness, and subsequent surgery, Manny was unable to complete his refit. Fortunately, he has a second boat which he much prefers. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? Link > shows no details. > > Thanks... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex Christie > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13680|13540|2007-06-13 23:05:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|On Wed, Jun 13, 2007 at 07:24:59AM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > Charging with nearly zero loss? I'd give quite a lot for such a critter > > right now. My solar panels and my wind generator are putting out a lot > > of juice that gets paid out as inefficiency taxes - despite my taking a > > lot of care with installation, large wire diameters, and so on. > > Batteries are just plain bloody awful; you're constantly paying that > > double-conversion tax (electrical to chemical and chemical back to > > electrical) *and* you've got to stick to a 30-40% usable range, or (as > > mentioned before) you'll be buying a new kit of them soon. > > since i'm too lazy to run the numbers myself i'll let you... how about storing the energy in > water? electric boilers are kind of common in industry, you could perhaps build one, run a > steam engine generator from wind and solar waste electricity, the stuff that doesn't go in the > batteries. Jim, I like your idea, but there's a minor problem with it: I'd have to completely rebuild my boat from scratch. :) Right now, all my auxiliary stuff runs on electricity, and converting it to anything different would mean scrapping the current system. Besides, I suspect that I'd have a tough time finding steam-driven lights (or laptop computers.) Even if I had a boiler, I'd _still_ be "paying" for conversion loss: from electricity (that being what is produced by the wind gen and the solar panels) to pressure, and then back from pressure to electricity. No cheese down that tunnel. > i've been thinking of magnetic bearings, rare earth, permanent, be fine for > stationary apps, but expensive to build. it may be possible to store some of the energy in a > flywheel, a really really big one. Same problem. As to having a flywheel for energy storage on the boat, consider the gyroscopic effect, the strain on the bearings in a rough seaway, and the danger of the worst-case scenario (large weight spinning at 10,000 rpm breaking loose...) Although flywheels are a really terrific energy storage mechanism for rotating masses - e.g., that car that UCLA designed was a whole lot of fun - I don't think they belong on boats. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13681|13654|2007-06-13 23:09:10|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Doug, Tig is the best welding method for very thin materials and for very critical repairs. I get some work done by a guy who has a stereo microscope mounted on his workbench with a tiny little welder that goes down to about 1/2 amp or so. I can't imagine holding an arc with that low of a current. I built a line once for making coax cables that go up to the satellite dishes. The outer copper jacket was about 0.015" thick tig welded at 400 feet per minute! I did some welding for an irrigation sprinkler company. We were welding 1/16" wall sprinkler pipe to cast aluminum end fittings. It took about 3 minutes a pipe. We had a guy from the fitting company come in and teach us how to weld the couplings on. A 6" coupling welded all the way around, that's more than 18", in 50 seconds per coupling. Tig at 400 amps with no filler wire! You set your hand lightly on the pipe and roll the pipe across saw horses as you weld. When I first learned Tig it was with a hi frequency add on box to a Lincoln DC welder. It had no current control. At first I started with the current set to the ideal current for the material I was welding. But it took forever, because heating up the cold aluminum to welding temperature took a very long time. So I learned to start welding with the current turned way up so I could get started quickly. Then I just welded really really fast! With Tig you have complete control of the puddle with the filler wire. Feed the wire fast and the puddle cools down. Feed slower and the puddle heats up. It is a whole lot easier with a foot pedal or torch mounted current control. But because I didn't learn with one I got fast enough with Tig that I realized it isn't the process that is inherently slow, it's the operator. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > > Thank you Gary > > I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if > you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers > Pulse MIG machines. > > Thanks again > Doug J > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13682|13654|2007-06-13 23:11:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Doug, One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the Mig welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding aluminum. You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel welding. As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know you are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray gun. Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the floor you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welding has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the weld, which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage and current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down this beautifully smooth weld. A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up thousands of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the owner that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the welds looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid piece work he kept his mouth shut!" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > > Thank you Gary > > I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if > you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers > Pulse MIG machines. > > Thanks again > Doug J > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13683|13674|2007-06-13 23:12:04|Tom|Re: Quick update on 6011 supply in UK|Dang For $400 a box I wouldnt even consider using it, 6011 is a good general purpuss rod but not that good. main reason I use it is cheap Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:16 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Quick update on 6011 supply in UK A quick update for anyone wanting 6011's in the UK. Having been advised of the ambiguity of the numbering system (thanks for that), I've canvassed around and this morning have received a quote for 6011's (disguised as Lincoln Nufive) from one source who will supply in 20Kg (44 lb) lots ex stock for £166. Add 17.5% VAT (Value Added Tax - bit like Purchase Tax) to that, and add (say) £15 carriage, and that's a cool £210 - or around 400 US dollars at today's exchange rates. That's about 4 or 5 times the cost of 6013's from the High Street - but at least they CAN be sourced under other names. Thanks for the help offered, and for bearing with me on this problem. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 13684|13288|2007-06-13 23:12:48|Tom|Re: Alex's boat|Hello Alex I think you have done a fine job of moderator and wanted to say thankyou for that . As far as your boat I think what took place was Bull S--- An unfinished boat is worth what somone is willing to pay for it and asking a price close to what material cost seems pretty resonable to me. If someone looks at it and thinks its not worth it, make an offer or walk away. Posting online negatives about it and lowballing it for thousands to see dont seem quite right to me. It is what it is an unfinished boat project. To some it is a diamond in the rough and a quick way to get a head start on the building process. Hopfully sombody comes along and sees that,buys it and finishes it. Take care Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Alex's boat > > Since the perception of the value of my boat hull on this site has been > effectively reduced to scrap value or nearly zero, I will no longer > attempt to promote it's sale here, as it appears to be a waste of time. I > have had serious contenders for the hull but they have dropped away in the > face of what they heard about it, though I have every confidence in its > integrity. Even a ragged edge on a scupper cut-out was never intended to > be a permanent fixture, but it has somehow tranfigured the hull into a > white elephant in the court of public opinion. Oh well, people who know > what they are looking at, know what they are looking at, and the rest > should by all means stay away from buying something they are not > absolutely certain of. I have had people ask strange questions about the > hull which reflect huge inaccuracies about it, and where that came from I > have no idea. One visitor said he heard the water tank is inaccessable, > which I found highly amusing since even Andre the Giant could have gotten > his big head inside each side of the access hatch to look inside it. > Wonders of the internet for passing around a message which gets > increasinly distorted over time I guess. As for rusting out the outside > skin, anyone who knows about corrosion should know that true corrosion > happens in the presence of an electrolyte, and showers of fresh water on > my hull will not destroy it. Oddly enough, looking down from the ferry > Queen of Alberni (or one of the queens) on a recent trip across from > Vancouver, I was amused to look down from the top deck to see that the big > square-sectioned rub strake down close to the water seemed largely bare > steel, with a bare hint of old black paint on it. Being out of the salt > water (the lovely electrolytic solution that it is), the strake was just > fine on that old steel ship. Evidently you can't oxidize oxide, so it > seemed to have rusted to one order then stopped or slowed severly, with > further oxidization stymied by the first layer of rust. > > Well, lastly I am unsure about continuing moderatorship of the group and > may look to pass the torch to someone else at this point, so that I can > get my life back in order and focus on the meaningful priorties of my > existence. > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13685|13654|2007-06-14 21:10:25|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Gary Thank you for your advice.? You may not remember but you had already advised me regarding proper MIG use and I posted your advice to my web site about a year ago.? Go see for yourself: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/welding.html? Just search for your name.?? So now you are being elevated to the status of mentor.? Stick around, I may buy a stick welder soon.? Any recommendations on that topic? Best of luck to ya Doug Tulsa OK www.submarineboat.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13686|13594|2007-06-14 21:10:59|edward_stoneuk|6011|Hi Colin, I have just got back from three months in NZ. Some time ago I bought some 6011 or 6010, I cannot remember which sort. They had to be ordered specially. They came in a tin and the top had to be cut off with a cutting disc. When I asked the supplier how I could reseal it he said usually if they were not used up in a day they were thrown away. From memory they could not be redried and they were over £100 a tin. From memory again I think the problem with them is hydrogen inclusion if they get wet. I think they were Thyssen. They did not work at all well, and after investigation it was because the open circuit voltage of my little welder was too low. I gave them away to a friend, I may see him at the weekend and be able to ask if he still has them. Regards, Ted| 13687|13540|2007-06-14 21:11:00|jim dorey|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|Ben Okopnik wrote: > Jim, I like your idea, but there's a minor problem with it: I'd have to > completely rebuild my boat from scratch. :) Right now, all my auxiliary > stuff runs on electricity, and converting it to anything different would > mean scrapping the current system. Besides, I suspect that I'd have a > tough time finding steam-driven lights (or laptop computers.) i like gas lights, but like i said, steam engine generator, maybe a large alternator? me, building a new boat, unlike what i am now, sitting here saving money for materials, would use led's and mechanically driven equipment, would be able to put steam to use easily. yeh, as a retrofit it's not a great idea, but for somebody building a new boat, steam engines would be something to look at. > Even if I had a boiler, I'd _still_ be "paying" for conversion loss: > from electricity (that being what is produced by the wind gen and the > solar panels) to pressure, and then back from pressure to electricity. > No cheese down that tunnel. i was thinking about using the boiler heating coil as the ballast for a wind power system, like during high winds, would be a good idea, cool the charger with water etc. beyond efficiency, there would normally be power thrown away because the batteries couldn't hold it, like, while in the slip. > Same problem. As to having a flywheel for energy storage on the boat, > consider the gyroscopic effect, the strain on the bearings in a rough > seaway, and the danger of the worst-case scenario (large weight spinning > at 10,000 rpm breaking loose...) Although flywheels are a really > terrific energy storage mechanism for rotating masses - e.g., that car > that UCLA designed was a whole lot of fun - I don't think they belong on > boats. that one was along the lines of proposing that somebody should try firing people and satellites into orbit with a large cannon, limited applicability, perfectly fine stationary.| 13688|13654|2007-06-14 21:11:19|T & D Cain|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Gary Lucas, your post below would have to be one of the best general guides I have seen to MIG with aluminium, especially for those who have mastered the art in all-position short-arc steel Your way of describing the necessary extra heat transfer avoids almost all of the difficulties in many other brief tutorials. In particular you show the novice how to quickly adapt to thin section welds. Well written. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2007 9:35 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks Doug, One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the Mig welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding aluminum. You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel welding. As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know you are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray gun. Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the floor you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welding has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the weld, which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage and current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down this beautifully smooth weld. A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up thousands of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the owner that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the welds looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid piece work he kept his mouth shut!" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > > Thank you Gary > > I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if > you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers > Pulse MIG machines. > > Thanks again > Doug J > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13689|13654|2007-06-14 21:11:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Very good advice. Our testing showed the same results. As you increased the voltage (and wire speed) there was a sudden and dramatic increase in weld strength, that could be identified by the surface appearance of the welds. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks Doug, One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the Mig welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding aluminum. You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel welding. As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know you are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray gun. Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the floor you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welding has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the weld, which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage and current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down this beautifully smooth weld. A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up thousands of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the owner that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the welds looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid piece work he kept his mouth shut!" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > > Thank you Gary > > I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if > you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers > Pulse MIG machines. > > Thanks again > Doug J > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13690|13412|2007-06-14 21:11:51|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Buy something like this on ebay: 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels Current bid: US $18,100.00 Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats (ketch rig), convert the ferro hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus back on ebay. There are lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that would make good parts boats. Even if you spent months or years shopping for deals, you would be hard pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for what you can buy them for in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" boat is that the parts are all in one place, the boat provide a means to transport and store the parts, and a workshop/living quarters to use while outfitting the new boat. A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can make a pretty cozy apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box on top offsets the ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion with the sticks removed. As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull is not typically an issue. If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset for a liveaboard. With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start putting the rent in your pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) like Alex's. Most of the work has been done, and the price is typically going to be less than the cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out the hull(s) with the parts stripped from the parts boats, and you will have an offshore cruiser for yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a cruising kitty, and a liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you can also sell or rent out to give you an income while offshore. Greg ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull was started. It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the project buy the deals as they come along. Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u start it seems to come together. Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the costs, buy the deals. First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. Red roses work best. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total > failure. > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire > investment, in cash and labor. > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much > > the > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. > > If > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost > > opportunity. > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > opportunity = value x time > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal > > for > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) > > is > > willing to pay. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > > On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > >> > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 > > minutes from my > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed > > for > > a refit then the > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust > > anywhere in the > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the > > WL it needs some > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than > > I > > want, > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in > > finishing it, one > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat > > profit, thereby funding > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely > > to be less than > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 13691|13288|2007-06-14 21:12:21|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Alex's boat|I would like to thank Alex for all his work on this site/list... I also think people have done Alex a real disservice in "trashing" his boat. He put something up for sale. If you like the price, buy it. If not, don't trash it, especially in public. If you honestly think its a rip-off, then privately mail the person involved, especially when its a known individual that has been a great help to the community. Bruce Tom wrote: > Hello Alex > I think you have done a fine job of moderator and wanted to say thankyou > for that . > As far as your boat I think what took place was Bull S--- An unfinished > boat is worth what somone is willing to pay for it and asking a price close > to what material cost seems pretty resonable to me. If someone looks at it > and thinks its not worth it, make an offer or walk away. Posting online > negatives about it and lowballing it for thousands to see dont seem quite > right to me. It is what it is an unfinished boat project. To some it is a > diamond in the rough and a quick way to get a head start on the building > process. Hopfully sombody comes along and sees that,buys it and finishes it. > Take care > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex's boat > >> Since the perception of the value of my boat hull on this site has been >> effectively reduced to scrap value or nearly zero, I will no longer >> attempt to promote it's sale here, as it appears to be a waste of time. I >> have had serious contenders for the hull but they have dropped away in the >> face of what they heard about it, though I have every confidence in its >> integrity. Even a ragged edge on a scupper cut-out was never intended to >> be a permanent fixture, but it has somehow tranfigured the hull into a >> white elephant in the court of public opinion. Oh well, people who know >> what they are looking at, know what they are looking at, and the rest >> should by all means stay away from buying something they are not >> absolutely certain of. I have had people ask strange questions about the >> hull which reflect huge inaccuracies about it, and where that came from I >> have no idea. One visitor said he heard the water tank is inaccessable, >> which I found highly amusing since even Andre the Giant could have gotten >> his big head inside each side of the access hatch to look inside it. >> Wonders of the internet for passing around a message which gets >> increasinly distorted over time I guess. As for rusting out the outside >> skin, anyone who knows about corrosion should know that true corrosion >> happens in the presence of an electrolyte, and showers of fresh water on >> my hull will not destroy it. Oddly enough, looking down from the ferry >> Queen of Alberni (or one of the queens) on a recent trip across from >> Vancouver, I was amused to look down from the top deck to see that the big >> square-sectioned rub strake down close to the water seemed largely bare >> steel, with a bare hint of old black paint on it. Being out of the salt >> water (the lovely electrolytic solution that it is), the strake was just >> fine on that old steel ship. Evidently you can't oxidize oxide, so it >> seemed to have rusted to one order then stopped or slowed severly, with >> further oxidization stymied by the first layer of rust. >> >> Well, lastly I am unsure about continuing moderatorship of the group and >> may look to pass the torch to someone else at this point, so that I can >> get my life back in order and focus on the meaningful priorties of my >> existence. >> >> Alex >> > -- Bruce Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 13692|13540|2007-06-14 21:12:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Feasible Electric Drive|In salt water, electricity is at best a necessary evil aboard a boat. Doubly so on metal boats, where stray currents can destroy the strength of the boat without much warning. There is a lot to be said for a simple, reliable diesel engine to power a boat. http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html State of Charge Specific Gravity Voltage 12V 6V 100% 1.265 12.7 6.3 *75% 1.225 12.4 6.2 50% 1.190 12.2 6.1 25% 1.155 12.0 6.0 Discharged 1.120 11.9 6.0 *Sulfation of Batteries starts when specific gravity falls below 1.225 or voltage measures less than 12.4 (12v Battery) or 6.2 (6 volt battery). Sulfation hardens the battery plates reducing and eventually destroying the ability of the battery to generate Volts and Amps. 8. Battery life and performance - Average battery life has become shorter as energy requirements have increased. Two phrases I hear most often are "my battery won't take a charge, and my battery won't hold a charge". Only 30% of batteries sold today reach the 48-month mark. In fact 80% of all battery failure is related to sulfation build-up. This build up occurs when the sulfur molecules in the electrolyte (battery acid) become so deeply discharged that they begin to coat the battery's lead plates. Before long the plates become so coated that the battery dies. The causes of sulfation are numerous. Let me list some for you. * Batteries sit too long between charges. As little as 24 hours in hot weather and several days in cooler weather. * Battery is stored without some type of energy input. * "Deep cycling" an engine starting battery. Remember these batteries can't stand deep discharge. * Undercharging of a battery, to charge a battery (letÕs say) to 90% of capacity will allow sulfation of the battery using the 10% of battery chemistry not reactivated by the incomplete charging cycle. * Heat of 100 plus F., increases internal discharge. As temperatures increase so does internal discharge. A new fully charged battery left sitting 24 hours a day at 110 degrees F for 30 days would most likely not start an engine. * Low electrolyte level - battery plates exposed to air will immediately sulfate. * Incorrect charging levels and settings. Most cheap battery chargers can do more harm than good. See the section on battery charging. * Cold weather is also hard on the battery. The chemistry does not make the same amount of energy as a warm battery. A deeply discharged battery can freeze solid in sub zero weather. * Parasitic drain is a load put on a battery with the key off. More info on parasitic drain will follow in this document. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13693|13693|2007-06-14 21:12:33|seeratlas|Off topic but relevant to several of our discussions.|I hope everyone is watching the Hamas takeover in Gaza. AND, I hope not everyone is surprised at 1. the fact its occuring; 2. how it is happening and what is befalling the ousted 'arab brothers'. Sometimes, reality even makes the headlines, albeit too rarely, so I hope u will all seize the opportunity to re-examine your personal evaluations of the 'true nature' of the mideast conflict. With any luck, most of you will find no adjustments necessary, I hope:) As for the immediate consequences...those should b self -evident, i hope. seer ps. Yeah I know, "I hope" alot, but that's a helluva good sign for someone like me. :)| 13694|13662|2007-06-14 21:12:47|brentswain38|Re: mig welding|Eduardo I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > Brent, Dan, > You are long time boat builders. > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > gas and flush. > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > thank you > eduardo > | 13695|13654|2007-06-14 21:13:07|Tom|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Gary Good explanation Thankyou, now if I can just remember it the next time i weld aluminum. One question, when welding out of position do you still use spray ark or do you have to revert back to short ark? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > Doug, > One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the > Mig > welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. > Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding > aluminum. > You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a > cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. > > To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel > welding. > As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed > (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know > you > are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it > has > a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end > you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it > has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the > weld > again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the > welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray > gun. > Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the > floor > you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero > spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be > pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc > welding > has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are > really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the > weld, > which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage > and > current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down > this beautifully smooth weld. > > A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up > thousands > of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid > piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder > set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was > really > pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the > owner > that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of > broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the > welds > looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He > said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid > piece > work he kept his mouth shut!" > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > >> >> >> >> >> Thank you Gary >> >> I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know >> if >> you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of >> Millers >> Pulse MIG machines. >> >> Thanks again >> Doug J >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >> from AOL at AOL.com. >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13696|13288|2007-06-14 21:14:15|kingsknight4life|Re: Alex's boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Alex > I think you have done a fine job of moderator and wanted to say thankyou > for that . > As far as your boat I think what took place was Bull S--- An unfinished > boat is worth what somone is willing to pay for it and asking a price close > to what material cost seems pretty resonable to me. If someone looks at it > and thinks its not worth it, make an offer or walk away. Posting online > negatives about it and lowballing it for thousands to see dont seem quite > right to me. It is what it is an unfinished boat project. To some it is a > diamond in the rough and a quick way to get a head start on the building > process. Hopfully sombody comes along and sees that,buys it and finishes it. > Take care > Tom Tom WELL said, those are my thoughts exactly. All those comments are total and utter BS!! I bought my "diamond in the rough" from Mathew, via Gary and Paul )or Paul an Gary. I considered the head start we got on building our dream a great value for our money. Who ever posted on the so called "problems" with your boat is full of "it". We have some rust on our hull but were always considering blasting anyway. Plus you can get it blasted if you shop around for around $1500 and then you have a brand new detailed hull. Hold out for your price Alex don't believe the "low ballers" Rowland| 13697|13412|2007-06-14 23:35:50|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with excellent gear sell for less than the price of the gear on them, often a fraction the price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some people bought the fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in usable gear off them. The boats often sold for around $1500. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Buy something like this on ebay: > > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats (ketch rig), convert the ferro > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus back on ebay. There are > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that would make good parts > boats. > > Even if you spent months or years shopping for deals, you would be hard > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for what you can buy them for > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" boat is that the parts are > all in one place, the boat provide a means to transport and store the parts, > and a workshop/living quarters to use while outfitting the new boat. > > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can make a pretty cozy > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box on top offsets the > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion with the sticks removed. > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull is not typically an issue. > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset for a liveaboard. > > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start putting the rent in your > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) like Alex's. Most of the > work has been done, and the price is typically going to be less than the > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out the hull(s) with the parts > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have an offshore cruiser for > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a cruising kitty, and a > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you can also sell or rent out > to give you an income while offshore. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull > was started. > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember > sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay > now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. > I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the > project buy the deals as they come along. > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of > hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the > order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay > two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u > start it seems to come together. > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane > people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane > gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week > knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the > next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the > costs, buy the deals. > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. > Red roses work best. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the > wrong > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is > good, then > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all > worth > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is > essentially total > > failure. > > > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with > the hull. > > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else > until it > > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly > your entire > > investment, in cash and labor. > > > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the > hull until > > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck > hardware, > > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes > wrong you > > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing > much value, > > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on > Ebay. If > > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So > you've got > > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are > paying for. > > > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you > could buy a > > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the > water, > > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could > build the > > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it > go way up. > > > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in > boats, > > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects > how much > > > the > > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often > reflects how > > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are > hidden costs. > > > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can > use her. > > > If > > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has > value - > > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater > the lost > > > opportunity. > > > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is > unpredictable. > > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is > finished and > > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > > opportunity = value x time > > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does > the value > > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and > bad deal > > > for > > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone > (the buyer) > > > is > > > willing to pay. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] > > > On > > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > >> > > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a > hull > > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I > would > > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of > the > > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be > me. > > > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K > AUD, 10 > > > minutes from my > > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior > removed > > > for > > > a refit then the > > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no > rust > > > anywhere in the > > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. > Below the > > > WL it needs some > > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more > water than > > > I > > > want, > > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of > upside in > > > finishing it, one > > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it > at a fat > > > profit, thereby funding > > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and > it's likely > > > to be less than > > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 13698|13288|2007-06-14 23:35:52|brentswain38|Re: Alex's boat|Friends on Cortes and Quadra Island are renting their homes to summer tourists , by the week and moving aboard their boats for the summer. Much higher rent revenue,and being aboard in summer is not that hard to take. They reckon they can make enough in weekly rents to pay their cost of living for the rest of the year.Of course you need a boat to live aboard to make this possible.Weekly renters are easier to take than year round renters.Location is important tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > As an alternative, rent your property and use this to buy the boat. Over > time boats go down in value. Land goes up. If you sell your land to buy a > boat, you end up with a boat that is typically worth less over time than you > paid. If you rent the land out, you end up with the land and the boat, and > the land is typically worth much more over time. > > We followed this strategy. Rented the house out and used part of the income > to buy a boat, which we traveled on for many years. When we returned the > house had gone up in value many times over, the boat had not. > > We used the same strategy to buy a motor home. When we returned from > sailing we continued to rent the house out and used the income to buy a > motor home, and pay for us to travel around North America sight seeing. It > was a great way to visit friends we had met sailing over the years. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > > PS I have found a Swain boat for sale, and I am contemplating selling almost > everything I own and moving onboard as soon as possible. See you on the > water some day perhaps , and I will tell you about the rest of my adventures > down south over a glass of that amazingly $2/liter fine Chilean wine that > goes down way to easily. > | 13699|13288|2007-06-14 23:36:07|edward_stoneuk|Re: Alex's boat|Hi Alex, I would be very sorry to see you resign from being moderator. You do an even handed and excellent job; one that I do not have the time for. Before I started building my Swain 36 I nearly bought a ready built Allan Pape designed hull without its superstructure. I got as far as having my offer accepted but backed out, because although it was very well built, it was a big and beamy boat and would cost too much to finish and operate. With hindsight I might be finished and on the water now if I had of bought it. If one wants a self customised boat, buying a well built hull of proven design and construction is an excellent way to start. Brent's designs have been on the water for a long time and therefore proven. Regards, Ted| 13700|13594|2007-06-14 23:36:31|brentswain38|6011|6011 are one of the most forgiving rods there are when it comes to moisture ,far more so that 7018. I've left them out of the box for months on end and even redried them with no problem. In Canada they are the same price as 6013. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > I have just got back from three months in NZ. Some time ago I bought > some 6011 or 6010, I cannot remember which sort. They had to be > ordered specially. They came in a tin and the top had to be cut off > with a cutting disc. When I asked the supplier how I could reseal it > he said usually if they were not used up in a day they were thrown > away. From memory they could not be redried and they were over £100 a > tin. From memory again I think the problem with them is hydrogen > inclusion if they get wet. I think they were Thyssen. They did not > work at all well, and after investigation it was because the open > circuit voltage of my little welder was too low. I gave them away to > a friend, I may see him at the weekend and be able to ask if he still > has them. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13701|13288|2007-06-15 20:53:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's boat|> Hold out for your price Alex don't believe the "low ballers" There's a guy with that attitude about 2 kilometers from my place. His hull has been sitting there, in the weather, unfinished, for 10 years so far. I think he's holding out for his price too. PDW| 13702|13594|2007-06-15 20:53:45|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > I have just got back from three months in NZ. Some time ago I bought > some 6011 or 6010, I cannot remember which sort. They had to be > ordered specially. They came in a tin and the top had to be cut off > with a cutting disc. When I asked the supplier how I could reseal it > he said usually if they were not used up in a day they were thrown > away. From memory they could not be redried and they were over £100 a > tin. From memory again I think the problem with them is hydrogen > inclusion if they get wet. I think they were Thyssen. They did not > work at all well, and after investigation it was because the open > circuit voltage of my little welder was too low. I gave them away to > a friend, I may see him at the weekend and be able to ask if he still > has them. > > Regards, > > Ted > Hi Ted Hope you had a good time in NZ ! Yes - I remember discussing the problems you had with some sealed-in-the-can rods during a visit to your site, ages ago. But for some reason I thought that those problematic rods were Low Hydrogen jobs (?). But maybe my memory is failing me ? I dug up quite a bit of information whilst hunting around for 6011's and in case it's of interest to others on the forum it can be condensed into a couple of paragraphs : Unlike rutile (sand-based) fluxed-rods, the flux used on 6010/11 rods is based on cellulose with a few added chemicals. During the welding process, this flux gives off gases which prevent oxidation of the weld-pool. As there is little residual slag to cover the weld-pool, the consequence of this is that the weld-pool solidifies relatively quickly (fast-freezes), and there is precious little residue to form the slag inclusions more associated with rutile fluxed rods. But one negative consequence of this 'volatile' flux is that the surface is left a lot rougher than when using a rutile rod. Although originally intended for use on AC, when the rods are used with reverse-DC polarity, the gas emitted by the flux coating is sufficiently strong to blow-away the weld-pool, and thus these rods can be used to easily cut through steel (up to 0.5" plate, or 1" dia rod). What I have found to be not so clear is how this flux coating actually causes the deep penetration itself - and the assumption I'm currently working on is that this is due to the liberation of hydrogen from moisture within the cellulose during the passage of heavy current through the rod. This assumption is supported by reports that if these rods fail to maintain an arc, this problem can be rectified by briefly dipping the rod into water, to restore the moisture content. This would also seem to be supported by Brent's comment that these rods can be left out of the tin for months on end. Indeed, it would appear that unlike Low Hydrogen rods which are stored in tins to keep moisture *away* from them, it may just be that 6010/11 cellulosic rods are stored in tins to *retain* a certain level of moisture in the flux, which appears necessary to maintain an arc and to ensure adequate penetration. I must stress that all of the above is based on info I've downloaded from the web, as I haven't even *seen* a 6011 yet, let alone burn one. However, Paul Thompson is kindly sending me a few from New Zealand (nothing like international co-operation !!) and so I'm looking forward - with some trepidation - to experimenting with these, using an old BOC TransArc 240A which I have on site which supplies both 50 and 75 OCV, the higher voltage of which I understand may be necessary. I'll keep y'all posted as to the outcome. Colin| 13703|13654|2007-06-15 20:53:56|will jones|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Great email on Al welding. I think I will keep it. Good insights on setup and adjustment. thanks "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: Doug, One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the Mig welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding aluminum. You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel welding. As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know you are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray gun. Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the floor you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc welding has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the weld, which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage and current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down this beautifully smooth weld. A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up thousands of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the owner that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the welds looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid piece work he kept his mouth shut!" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > > Thank you Gary > > I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know if > you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of Millers > Pulse MIG machines. > > Thanks again > Doug J > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13704|13662|2007-06-15 20:54:09|will jones|Re: mig welding|If you are using a flux core wire and no shielding gas, why do you need to have calm dry conditions? Wet and windy or even high humidity and improperly stored rods (ie not in a rod box or oven) have caused me more problems than flux core mig wire any day. brentswain38 wrote: Eduardo I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > Brent, Dan, > You are long time boat builders. > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > gas and flush. > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > thank you > eduardo > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13705|13705|2007-06-15 20:54:37|Eduardo Mendes Dias|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding|----- Original Message ----- From: Eduardo Mendes Dias To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding Thank you brent, I thought so. Rods are very practical, but when conditions are favorable and equipment available, mig is much faster and cheaper. I'm building a big boat, so speed is necessary. And mig welding inside (the boat), which represent 80% of total, certanly have some advantages. I'll count in your experience in future, when I face dificulties. Regards eduardo ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding Eduardo I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > Brent, Dan, > You are long time boat builders. > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > gas and flush. > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > thank you > eduardo > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13706|13412|2007-06-15 20:55:36|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|There is an old saying "perfection is the enemy of good". I think this has a lot to do with the comments about Alex's hull. Steel sitting in the weather unprotected does rust. However, unless there is a corrosive agent like CO2 present in high quantities, the rust you get from rain over a couple of years is not going to affect the integrity of the hull one little bit. Few if any builders can pull together a metal hull without some small problems in the shape here and there. Most, if not all boats sail a bit better on one tack than the other. If you insist on perfection, you will search your whole life and never find it. A good plan, executed in a timely fashion, will beat perfection every time. If your aim is to build a perfect boat, from scratch, your project will never complete. However, if your aim is to get out on the water in a good boat, then you should not concern yourself with questions like, did I build the hull myself, or did I build the mast myself, or did I build the windlass myself. Your concern should be to put together a plan, that will yield a good boat, in the time available, with the money available, with the least risk of failure. For a given amount of time and money, for a given level of skill, the more perfect you try and make the boat, the greater the risk that you will not complete the project. Because the future is unpredictable, as a general rule the shorter you can make a project, the lower the risk of failure. For example: If one plan allows you to complete a boat in 6 months, versus an alternative plan that allows you complete a boat in 25 years, which plan is more likely to succeed? Some people might think the 25 year plan, but most people recognize that in 5, 10, 15 years you may not want a boat. This is an extreme example of course, but it shows the value of any steps you can take to shorten the project, if the costs remain the same. So long as Alex's hull is selling for less than it would cost anyone else to build to the same point, it represents a better alternative than building yourself, because it shortens the project and thereby reduces the risk of failure. I thought the previous posting about the experimental airplane group was a good example of what could be done with Alex's hull. Interested builders get together and help build while learning from more experienced builders. Rather than pay for welding courses separately at might school, as a group pay for experienced builders to attend and teach welding and boat building. $$ would be invested, Alex would get a completed hull, people would learn valuable skills. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with excellent gear sell for less than the price of the gear on them, often a fraction the price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some people bought the fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in usable gear off them. The boats often sold for around $1500. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Buy something like this on ebay: > > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats (ketch rig), convert the ferro > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus back on ebay. There are > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that would make good parts > boats. > > Even if you spent months or years shopping for deals, you would be hard > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for what you can buy them for > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" boat is that the parts are > all in one place, the boat provide a means to transport and store the parts, > and a workshop/living quarters to use while outfitting the new boat. > > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can make a pretty cozy > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box on top offsets the > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion with the sticks removed. > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull is not typically an issue. > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset for a liveaboard. > > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start putting the rent in your > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) like Alex's. Most of the > work has been done, and the price is typically going to be less than the > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out the hull(s) with the parts > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have an offshore cruiser for > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a cruising kitty, and a > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you can also sell or rent out > to give you an income while offshore. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull > was started. > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember > sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay > now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. > I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the > project buy the deals as they come along. > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of > hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the > order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay > two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u > start it seems to come together. > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane > people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane > gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week > knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the > next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the > costs, buy the deals. > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. > Red roses work best. > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > , "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the > wrong > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is > good, then > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all > worth > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is > essentially total > > failure. > > > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with > the hull. > > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else > until it > > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly > your entire > > investment, in cash and labor. > > > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the > hull until > > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck > hardware, > > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes > wrong you > > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing > much value, > > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on > Ebay. If > > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So > you've got > > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are > paying for. > > > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you > could buy a > > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the > water, > > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could > build the > > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it > go way up. > > > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in > boats, > > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects > how much > > > the > > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often > reflects how > > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are > hidden costs. > > > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can > use her. > > > If > > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has > value - > > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater > the lost > > > opportunity. > > > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is > unpredictable. > > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is > finished and > > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > > opportunity = value x time > > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does > the value > > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and > bad deal > > > for > > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone > (the buyer) > > > is > > > willing to pay. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > ] > > > On > > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > >> > > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a > hull > > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I > would > > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of > the > > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be > me. > > > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K > AUD, 10 > > > minutes from my > > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior > removed > > > for > > > a refit then the > > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no > rust > > > anywhere in the > > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. > Below the > > > WL it needs some > > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more > water than > > > I > > > want, > > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of > upside in > > > finishing it, one > > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it > at a fat > > > profit, thereby funding > > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and > it's likely > > > to be less than > > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13707|13628|2007-06-15 20:55:47|brentswain38|Re: Center seam overlap|Trim the overlap of and make it a butt joint. I make it long to make sure you don't have a gap to fill. The book explains it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent > > I folded one half today. It went well mostly but I think I have a > problem with something cause I ended up with a 1 1/2" overlap at the > center seam. Would that much overlap be normal. I posted some pictures > in Origami boats 2. > > Aaron > > P.S Paul thanks for the help this week. > | 13708|13412|2007-06-15 20:55:47|aaron riis|Re: transverse web on single keel?|Im finnishing off the last few details of steelwork on my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of the keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I have used angle irons for the engine beds which also spread out the keel load. I understand that single keels are inherently stronger than twin keels using the strength of the centreline. Im considering running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within the keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute peace of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, there wasn't any details in the plans for the single keel. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with > excellent gear > sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > often a fraction the > price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > people bought the > fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > usable gear off them. > The boats often sold for around $1500. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Buy something like this on ebay: > > > > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > > > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > (ketch rig), convert > the ferro > > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > back on ebay. There are > > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that > would make good parts > > boats. > > > > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > deals, you would be hard > > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for > what you can buy > them for > > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" > boat is that the > parts are > > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > transport and store > the parts, > > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > outfitting the new boat. > > > > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can > make a pretty cozy > > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box > on top offsets the > > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion > with the sticks > removed. > > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull > is not typically > an issue. > > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > for a liveaboard. > > > > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start > putting the rent > in your > > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) > like Alex's. > Most of the > > work has been done, and the price is typically > going to be less than the > > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out > the hull(s) with > the parts > > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have > an offshore cruiser for > > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a > cruising kitty, and a > > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you > can also sell or > rent out > > to give you an income while offshore. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > again.... > > > > > > > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room > was full of marine > > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > $30,000 before the hull > > was started. > > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need > it and u end up > > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > ahead. I remember > > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > purchase, a box of > > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was > nuts cause there > > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > fenders, stoves, > > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold > it all. But there's > > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared > to what I would pay > > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > takes away your > > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. > You can Ebay it > > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > profit. > > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > committed to the > > project buy the deals as they come along. > > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, > chain, heater, > > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc > etc. > > > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > together on Vancouver > > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > build a number of > > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > builds and > > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of > engines from a > > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will > talk to u when the > > order is big. If all of you who want boats started > now collecting > > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a > field in Courtenay > > two years from now to start your boats u would all > be on your way to > > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger > and time flys > > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell > asleep, and when I woke > > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat > either but once u > > start it seems to come together. > > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home > Built Airplane > > people build planes. Everybody interested in that > model of plane > > gets together and overseen by a company rep all > the interested guys > > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up > the money for the > > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane > leave in a week > > knowing exactly what they are up against and how > to build a plane. > > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats > at the same time, > > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can > swear) another half > > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short > period of time. In the > > next two years, those who can't weld could take > night courses to > > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, > and research the > > costs, buy the deals. > > > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to > the wife, "Honey, > > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love > you, and oh by the > > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for > 2 months to build > > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might > get away with it. > > Red roses work best. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am starting to think that people go about > build a boat from the > > wrong > > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying > plans, which is > > good, then > > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, > which may be bad. > > > > > > Consider that building a boat is like going to > college. It is all > > worth > > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than > 100% ton is > > essentially total > > > failure. > > > > > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that > people === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php| 13709|13412|2007-06-15 20:55:58|brentswain38|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|Friends in Vancouver bought the ugliest most distorted steel boat from the bank for $3,000 . In it they found a 30 hp yanmar with 50 hours on it, new sails and rig, mast, stainless tank etc etc . After stripping it they spent a day trying to break the 1/8th inch hull up with a backhoe. They were only able to dent it without making single hole. They had to cut it up with a torch.They saved thousands on gear. Nobody else would buy it because they valued style over substance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with excellent gear > sell for less than the price of the gear on them, often a fraction the > price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some people bought the > fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in usable gear off them. > The boats often sold for around $1500. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Buy something like this on ebay: > > > > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > > > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats (ketch rig), convert > the ferro > > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus back on ebay. There are > > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that would make good parts > > boats. > > > > Even if you spent months or years shopping for deals, you would be hard > > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for what you can buy > them for > > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" boat is that the > parts are > > all in one place, the boat provide a means to transport and store > the parts, > > and a workshop/living quarters to use while outfitting the new boat. > > > > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can make a pretty cozy > > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box on top offsets the > > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion with the sticks > removed. > > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull is not typically > an issue. > > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset for a liveaboard. > > > > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start putting the rent > in your > > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) like Alex's. > Most of the > > work has been done, and the price is typically going to be less than the > > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out the hull(s) with > the parts > > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have an offshore cruiser for > > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a cruising kitty, and a > > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you can also sell or > rent out > > to give you an income while offshore. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine > > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull > > was started. > > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up > > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember > > sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of > > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there > > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, > > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's > > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay > > now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your > > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it > > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. > > I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the > > project buy the deals as they come along. > > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, > > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. > > > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver > > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of > > hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and > > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a > > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the > > order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting > > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay > > two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to > > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys > > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke > > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u > > start it seems to come together. > > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane > > people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane > > gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys > > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the > > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week > > knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. > > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, > > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half > > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the > > next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to > > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the > > costs, buy the deals. > > > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, > > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the > > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build > > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. > > Red roses work best. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the > > wrong > > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is > > good, then > > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > > > > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all > > worth > > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is > > essentially total > > > failure. > > > > > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with > > the hull. > > > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else > > until it > > > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly > > your entire > > > investment, in cash and labor. > > > > > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the > > hull until > > > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck > > hardware, > > > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes > > wrong you > > > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing > > much value, > > > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on > > Ebay. If > > > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So > > you've got > > > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are > > paying for. > > > > > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you > > could buy a > > > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the > > water, > > > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could > > build the > > > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it > > go way up. > > > > > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in > > boats, > > > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects > > how much > > > > the > > > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often > > reflects how > > > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are > > hidden costs. > > > > > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can > > use her. > > > > If > > > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has > > value - > > > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater > > the lost > > > > opportunity. > > > > > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is > > unpredictable. > > > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is > > finished and > > > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > > > opportunity = value x time > > > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does > > the value > > > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and > > bad deal > > > > for > > > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone > > (the buyer) > > > > is > > > > willing to pay. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > ] > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a > > hull > > > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I > > would > > > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > > > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of > > the > > > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > > > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > > > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > > > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > > > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > > > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > > > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > > > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be > > me. > > > > > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K > > AUD, 10 > > > > minutes from my > > > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior > > removed > > > > for > > > > a refit then the > > > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no > > rust > > > > anywhere in the > > > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. > > Below the > > > > WL it needs some > > > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more > > water than > > > > I > > > > want, > > > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of > > upside in > > > > finishing it, one > > > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it > > at a fat > > > > profit, thereby funding > > > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and > > it's likely > > > > to be less than > > > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13710|13710|2007-06-15 20:56:38|heretic_37ft|Another Heretic Speaks|This group is not for: Farmers Home boys Politicians Hate mongers Nobody here can do better than Brent! So listen carefully! Ask questions. We are lucky to get real advice from Mr. Swain and the other fine sailors here! Heretic_37ft| 13711|13654|2007-06-15 21:21:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Doug, Wow, very nicely done website! I remember what I wrote, I just didn't remember it was you. Yeah, I know, I'm just getting old. But not too old. I was in a bookstore with my 3-1/2 year old grandson this evening and I was talking to a pretty blonde with a little girl about 1 year old. She made a comment about how tiring it was keeping up with kids. I said that was the good thing about grand children, you can give them back when you are too tired to go on. She said "Oh! He's your grand son." You have to take your compliments where you get them these days. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > Gary > > Thank you for your advice.? You may not remember but you had already > advised me regarding proper MIG use and I posted your advice to my web > site about a year ago.? Go see for yourself: > http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/welding.html? Just search for your > name.?? > > So now you are being elevated to the status of mentor.? Stick around, I > may buy a stick welder soon.? Any recommendations on that topic? > > Best of luck to ya > Doug > Tulsa OK > www.submarineboat.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13712|13712|2007-06-15 21:21:50|Alex|Alex's hull|Well, among other things, it was my focus on making the film that really sidelined the boat. I underestimated the cost and time to make a detailed 3 hour technical video, which took nearly a year to edit and produce, and consumed thousands of dollars in equipment, time not spent working for money, and extra costs of labour having Brent do work I would normally have done. I even produced all the music for the film, which though it represented but minutes on the film sucked up weeks of effort. I admire people that peel off stuff like that fast, but didn't happen that way for me as I waded through unfamiliar technology. I believed strongly in promoting a unique building system, recording these techniques for posterity. But had I not made the film, I'd not have had to sell the hull. Ironic. I was trained as a boatbuilder, but it turns out that I am also an obsessive film-maker. I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. Alex| 13713|13654|2007-06-15 22:48:19|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Tom, I've found welding aluminum out of position easier to do than steel welding, with one exception. There are two reasons it can be easier. The first is that aluminum is a very good conductor of heat compared to steel. So fast freeze is built in, because the weld puddle cools so fast. Second the weld puddle weighs a third of steel, so gravity isn't working as hard against you. The exception is that visually you don't get much warning that you are about to burn through because aluminum doesn't get brighter before melting. So one second you are making a nice bead and the next you are staring through a hole! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > Gary > Good explanation Thankyou, now if I can just remember it the next time i > weld aluminum. > One question, when welding out of position do you still use spray ark or > do > you have to revert back to short ark? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:05 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > >> Doug, >> One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the >> Mig >> welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. >> Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding >> aluminum. >> You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a >> cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. >> >> To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel >> welding. >> As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed >> (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know >> you >> are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it >> has >> a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the >> end >> you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If >> it >> has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the >> weld >> again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the >> welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the >> voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray >> gun. >> Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the >> floor >> you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero >> spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be >> pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc >> welding >> has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are >> really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the >> weld, >> which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage >> and >> current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down >> this beautifully smooth weld. >> >> A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up >> thousands >> of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting >> paid >> piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder >> set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was >> really >> pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the >> owner >> that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of >> broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the >> welds >> looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He >> said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid >> piece >> work he kept his mouth shut!" >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you Gary >>> >>> I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know >>> if >>> you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of >>> Millers >>> Pulse MIG machines. >>> >>> Thanks again >>> Doug J >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >>> from AOL at AOL.com. >>> >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > | 13714|13654|2007-06-15 23:02:38|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Help Welding Aluminum Tanks|Terry, In all honesty most of this came from a little Miller booklet given to me by a very good welder about 33 years ago. I lost it about 25 years ago and searched for copies everywhere to no avail. It was great because it had pictures of everything I described that made it perfectly clear. You are right, I did forget to mention about how spray arc transfers MUCH more energy to the weld puddle than short arc, which is very important. To Tig weld aluminum thicker that 1/8" requires a welding machine of greater than 200 amps. When I learned how to weld with the old 250 amp Lincoln I had an air cooled torch. I had to wear two gloves to hold it because it got so hot, and would trip the overheat switch in the welder all the time. With Mig and spray arc the heat transfer is so efficient you have a weld bead before the heat has been drawn away by the high conductivity of the base metal. So a 200 amp Mig welder is quite useful on aluminum while for Tig I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than 400 amp. I did a lot of aluminum welding with the old 250 amp Lincoln. I used to repair street light poles smashed into pieces by cars. On the heavy stuff I'd set it on top of a plumbers propane fired lead pot. When it reached the temperature that solder would melt right away when touching the surface I'd put on my gloves and start welding. I fixed a set of electricians 4" pipe bending dies that were 3" thick this way. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & D Cain" To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > Gary Lucas, your post below would have to be one of the best general > guides > I have seen to MIG with aluminium, especially for those who have mastered > the art in all-position short-arc steel > > Your way of describing the necessary extra heat transfer avoids almost all > of the difficulties in many other brief tutorials. In particular you show > the novice how to quickly adapt to thin section welds. > > Well written. > > Terry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Thursday, 14 June 2007 9:35 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > > > > Doug, > One other thing regarding Mig welding of aluminum. Many people set the Mig > welders up wrong because they think it is similar to steel welding. > Aluminum should be welded using the spray arc process when welding > aluminum. > > You get much better penetration, use less wire, get a smoother bead, a > cleaner weld, and it is twice as fast. > > To get spray arc you need to turn the voltage up, WAY up from steel > welding. > > As you are doing that you also need to increase the wire feed speed > (current) so the wire doesn't burn back into the torch. How do you know > you > are using spray arc? Look at the end of the wire after welding. If it has > a sharp point on the end you were spray welding. If has a ball on the end > you were short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Look at the weld. If it > has sharp closely spaced ripples you were short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc makes nice smooth wavy weld beads. Look at the weld > again, it is sooty looking and dark you were short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc welds are quite often almost shiny. Listen to the > welder, if it sounds like frying eggs you are short arc welding, turn the > voltage up. Spray arc sounds exactly like spray painting with a spray gun. > Watch the spatter hitting the floor. If you have spatter hitting the floor > you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray makes almost zero > spatter, no wire is wasted. Look at the arc, if the wire appears to be > pulsating you are short arc welding, turn the voltage up. Spray arc > welding > has an arc that fans out from the sharp tip of the wire. When you are > really in the groove you feel like you are spraying the metal onto the > weld, > > which you are. It's a wonderful thing when you finally get the voltage and > current right and you are just flying down the weld seam just laying down > this beautifully smooth weld. > > A greenhouse I was doing work for had this guy come in to weld up > thousands > of aluminum benches from 1/16" thick extrusions. The guy was getting paid > piece work and he was fast. I told the owner that the guy had his welder > set up wrong. He asked the guy to let me adjust his welder. He was really > pissed because I wasted almost an hour getting it right. I showed the > owner > that the welds were much better, very much stronger, and he had lots of > broken welds in the past. I came back a couple of days later and the welds > looked very good. I asked the owner if the guy was still mad at me. He > said "No, once he realized he was going twice as fast and getting paid > piece > > work he kept his mouth shut!" > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: com> > To: > yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:57 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Help Welding Aluminum Tanks > >> >> >> >> >> Thank you Gary >> >> I am certainly not pro with my MIG.? If you have an opinion let me know >> if > >> you think TIG would be better for thin material compared to one of >> Millers > >> Pulse MIG machines. >> >> Thanks again >> Doug J >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >> from AOL at AOL.com. >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13715|13412|2007-06-15 23:02:42|Tom|Re: transverse web on single keel?|Hello Aaron Got pictures? From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in the single keel up to floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank tops, ends, and baffles are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine is probably a tad overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had mine on the hoist I set it down on the keel to see if there was any movment or flex and I can say its rock solid. Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "aaron riis" To: Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on single keel? > Im finnishing off the last few details of steelwork on > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of the > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > have used angle irons for the engine beds which also > spread out the keel load. I understand that single > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels using > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within the > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute peace > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > there wasn't any details in the plans for the single > keel. > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with >> excellent gear >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, >> often a fraction the >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some >> people bought the >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in >> usable gear off them. >> The boats often sold for around $1500. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: >> > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 >> > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats >> (ketch rig), convert >> the ferro >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus >> back on ebay. There are >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that >> would make good parts >> > boats. >> > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for >> deals, you would be hard >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for >> what you can buy >> them for >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" >> boat is that the >> parts are >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to >> transport and store >> the parts, >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while >> outfitting the new boat. >> > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can >> make a pretty cozy >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box >> on top offsets the >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion >> with the sticks >> removed. >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull >> is not typically >> an issue. >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset >> for a liveaboard. >> > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start >> putting the rent >> in your >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) >> like Alex's. >> Most of the >> > work has been done, and the price is typically >> going to be less than the >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out >> the hull(s) with >> the parts >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have >> an offshore cruiser for >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a >> cruising kitty, and a >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you >> can also sell or >> rent out >> > to give you an income while offshore. >> > >> > Greg >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten >> again.... >> > >> > >> > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room >> was full of marine >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent >> $30,000 before the hull >> > was started. >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need >> it and u end up >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan >> ahead. I remember >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first >> purchase, a box of >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was >> nuts cause there >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, >> fenders, stoves, >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold >> it all. But there's >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared >> to what I would pay >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife >> takes away your >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. >> You can Ebay it >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a >> profit. >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're >> committed to the >> > project buy the deals as they come along. >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, >> chain, heater, >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc >> etc. >> > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get >> together on Vancouver >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to >> build a number of >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the >> builds and >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of >> engines from a >> > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will >> talk to u when the >> > order is big. If all of you who want boats started >> now collecting >> > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a >> field in Courtenay >> > two years from now to start your boats u would all >> be on your way to >> > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger >> and time flys >> > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell >> asleep, and when I woke >> > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat >> either but once u >> > start it seems to come together. >> > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home >> Built Airplane >> > people build planes. Everybody interested in that >> model of plane >> > gets together and overseen by a company rep all >> the interested guys >> > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up >> the money for the >> > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane >> leave in a week >> > knowing exactly what they are up against and how >> to build a plane. >> > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats >> at the same time, >> > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can >> swear) another half >> > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short >> period of time. In the >> > next two years, those who can't weld could take >> night courses to >> > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, >> and research the >> > costs, buy the deals. >> > >> > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to >> the wife, "Honey, >> > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love >> you, and oh by the >> > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for >> 2 months to build >> > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might >> get away with it. >> > Red roses work best. >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > , "Gary H. Lucas" >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > I am starting to think that people go about >> build a boat from the >> > wrong >> > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying >> plans, which is >> > good, then >> > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, >> which may be bad. >> > > >> > > Consider that building a boat is like going to >> college. It is all >> > worth >> > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than >> 100% ton is >> > essentially total >> > > failure. >> > > >> > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that >> people > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're > surfing. > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13716|13716|2007-06-19 14:34:39|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Alex's boat & his work putting this site together|I believe everyone will agree that Alex has done a bang up job on this site, a LOT of work and, as others have mentioned has been even handed, informative & undoubtedly passionate about the whole process. For that Alex, I would like to thank you very much! RE: your hull. Unfortunately it seems that your efforts are going unnoticed on the site you created & "the market" is being it's typical brutal self. True, it's worth only what another man will pay for it, but, If people are so passionate about building and trust Brent and yourself for info etc, then what is to be gained by kicking a fellow & trying to screw him out of his hard work? Maybe my view is distorted, but I figure the guy who comes up with a buck in a fire sale is a salvor, providing much needed money when people need it most and helping themselves in the process. But this situation is a bit different isn't it? for starters, when was the fire? Also, and perhaps more to the point, you have been instrumental in getting a number of people going on Brent Boats & your hull has involved a bit more getting together than the carcass of a pig or a stack of timber = just a comodity. Like the man said, if you want it, make an offer, but dont abuse the guy. Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 13717|13710|2007-06-19 14:35:22|Michael Casling|Re: Another Heretic Speaks|Not for Farmers ?? Would that be the same farmers that have space for the amateur builder, as has been suggested on this site. The same farmer who is often quite popular in times of need, because they have trucks and trailers and other resources. The kind of resources and thinking that lend themselves to building projects. I would suggest that many farmers have a lot of things in common with Brent. But you want to exclude them ? Let me just say that I have the room required to build any size boat, I have a means of lifting my boat off the trailer. I have a truck and trailer for my current boat. I can do repairs and paint the bottom on the farm. I do not pay stoorage fees when on the hard, although most of the time my boat is in the water. Try working on your boat on the lawn in front of the condo. I also have a condo within walking distance of my boat when it is in the water. If Brent were nearby I would be pleased to pay him to do some welding for me. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: heretic_37ft To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 11:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Another Heretic Speaks This group is not for: Farmers Home boys Politicians Hate mongers Nobody here can do better than Brent! So listen carefully! Ask questions. We are lucky to get real advice from Mr. Swain and the other fine sailors here! Heretic_37ft [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13718|13712|2007-06-19 14:35:27|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Alex's hull|Alex, Sorry to hear about your situation with your hull. I bought a set of your dvds and thought it was great! I learned a lot from watching it and it definitely improved the fabrication of my hull. I would have really liked to see how you fitted it out. Oh well. Good luck with everything! On Friday 15 June 2007 8:20 pm, Alex wrote: > Well, among other things, it was my focus on making the film that > really sidelined the boat. I underestimated the cost and time to make > a detailed 3 hour technical video, which took nearly a year to edit > and produce, and consumed thousands of dollars in equipment, time not > spent working for money, and extra costs of labour having Brent do > work I would normally have done. I even produced all the music for the > film, which though it represented but minutes on the film sucked up > weeks of effort. I admire people that peel off stuff like that fast, > but didn't happen that way for me as I waded through unfamiliar > technology. > > I believed strongly in promoting a unique building system, recording > these techniques for posterity. But had I not made the film, I'd not > have had to sell the hull. Ironic. I was trained as a boatbuilder, but > it turns out that I am also an obsessive film-maker. > > I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at > the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell > our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. > Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I > struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my > lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to > clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, > energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. > > Alex | 13719|13412|2007-06-19 14:36:18|brentswain38|Re: transverse web on single keel?|Twin keels, being in the centre of the plate,need reinforcing between the centreline and the chine. For the 36 I was using four 4X1/2 inch flat bars each side , but impacts wiith rocks tended to bend the aft one and the keel would push itself into the hull ,leaving a big dent there. It was easily cranked out with a hydralic jack, but I started going for angle 3x3x1/2 inch, four of them , and putting a heavy angle floor acros the trailing edges of the keels . The tank does this job well ,and eliminates the need to take the transverse webs all the way to the centreline. Whatever size of boat you have , doing a heavy overkill here doesn't hurt anything ,and it all acts as ballast.Don't underestimat the stress on them. 3- 3x3x1/4 inch angles would do the job for a 26, but heavier wouldn't hurt anything. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Aaron > Got pictures? > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in the single keel up to > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank tops, ends, and baffles > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine is probably a tad > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had mine on the hoist I set > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment or flex and I can say > its rock solid. > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "aaron riis" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on single keel? > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of steelwork on > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of the > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which also > > spread out the keel load. I understand that single > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels using > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within the > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute peace > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the single > > keel. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats with > >> excellent gear > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > >> often a fraction the > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > >> people bought the > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > >> usable gear off them. > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > >> > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > >> > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > >> (ketch rig), convert > >> the ferro > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > >> back on ebay. There are > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that > >> would make good parts > >> > boats. > >> > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > >> deals, you would be hard > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for > >> what you can buy > >> them for > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" > >> boat is that the > >> parts are > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > >> transport and store > >> the parts, > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > >> outfitting the new boat. > >> > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can > >> make a pretty cozy > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box > >> on top offsets the > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion > >> with the sticks > >> removed. > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull > >> is not typically > >> an issue. > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > >> for a liveaboard. > >> > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start > >> putting the rent > >> in your > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) > >> like Alex's. > >> Most of the > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > >> going to be less than the > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out > >> the hull(s) with > >> the parts > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have > >> an offshore cruiser for > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a > >> cruising kitty, and a > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you > >> can also sell or > >> rent out > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > >> > > >> > Greg > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > >> again.... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room > >> was full of marine > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > >> $30,000 before the hull > >> > was started. > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need > >> it and u end up > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > >> ahead. I remember > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > >> purchase, a box of > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was > >> nuts cause there > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > >> fenders, stoves, > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold > >> it all. But there's > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared > >> to what I would pay > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > >> takes away your > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. > >> You can Ebay it > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > >> profit. > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > >> committed to the > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, > >> chain, heater, > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc > >> etc. > >> > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > >> together on Vancouver > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > >> build a number of > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > >> builds and > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of > >> engines from a > >> > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will > >> talk to u when the > >> > order is big. If all of you who want boats started > >> now collecting > >> > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a > >> field in Courtenay > >> > two years from now to start your boats u would all > >> be on your way to > >> > your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger > >> and time flys > >> > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell > >> asleep, and when I woke > >> > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat > >> either but once u > >> > start it seems to come together. > >> > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home > >> Built Airplane > >> > people build planes. Everybody interested in that > >> model of plane > >> > gets together and overseen by a company rep all > >> the interested guys > >> > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up > >> the money for the > >> > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane > >> leave in a week > >> > knowing exactly what they are up against and how > >> to build a plane. > >> > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats > >> at the same time, > >> > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can > >> swear) another half > >> > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short > >> period of time. In the > >> > next two years, those who can't weld could take > >> night courses to > >> > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, > >> and research the > >> > costs, buy the deals. > >> > > >> > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to > >> the wife, "Honey, > >> > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love > >> you, and oh by the > >> > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for > >> 2 months to build > >> > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might > >> get away with it. > >> > Red roses work best. > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > , "Gary H. Lucas" > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I am starting to think that people go about > >> build a boat from the > >> > wrong > >> > > direction. I keep hearing about people buying > >> plans, which is > >> > good, then > >> > > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, > >> which may be bad. > >> > > > >> > > Consider that building a boat is like going to > >> college. It is all > >> > worth > >> > > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than > >> 100% ton is > >> > essentially total > >> > > failure. > >> > > > >> > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that > >> people > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're > > surfing. > > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 13720|13720|2007-06-19 14:36:46|edward_stoneuk|Mast ventilators|Hi all, Hollow masts, as the sun warms them causing the air inside to rise, would make excellent ventilators if connected into the cabin top at their base and fitted with a spring closing valve at the top that can be closed in a sea-way. Any views on this? Regards, Ted| 13721|13721|2007-06-19 14:38:55|Gary|Broken Group|I will be arriving Broken Group west side of Vancouver Island in August. I wish to pick up a (by bus) passenger nearest place that a bus would stop. Any suggestions would be helpful. I know that there is a Nanaimo/Victoria tourist van service that stops in Ucluelet and Tofino but was wondering if there is any service closer to Broken Group. Thanks in advance.... Gary| 13722|13722|2007-06-19 14:39:15|ed_lithgow|MIG as Aluminium Sprayer?|OK, doubtless a dumb idea, but the discussion on flame spraying (aluminium on steel) a while ago, in combination with the recent post on "spray welding" of aluminium, made me think of it. I'm thinking you could substitute compressed air for the shielding gas, assuming the pressure wouldn't damage your MIG's delicate internals, or that any delicate bits could be (temporarily) removed. If having the steel "live" wouldn't work (perhaps it'd be too hot in the arc for adhesion of the aluminium) then you'd need to make a new nossle with a second electrode of non-consumable tungsten (i.e. a TIG electrode) and blow the al out of the arc. Don't see why that wouldn't work, but making it as a one-off would probably get to be too much trouble. Another issue would be the deposition rate, which might be a bit slow from a welder. Anything like this available off-the-shelf?| 13723|13288|2007-06-19 14:39:23|brentswain38|Re: Alex's boat|When I was selling my last boat, people kept telling me to practically give it away, and were constantly badmouthing it. What I got for it was no skin off their asses. They were simply on a smart ass, childish power trip at my expense.I found out who my real friends were , and how many ,who I had mistaken for real friends ,were anything but. I got to give one of them major payback. I held out for more than double of what they were suggesting. It took a while , during which I was extremely poor, but since I sold her the new owner cruised to Mexico and back , then built another one of my designs. He got what he paid for her. As a result of having ignored the people who would have screwed up my life for their childish entertainment ,I haven't had a care in the world over money since 1987. Had I been gullible enough to allow them to screw me up, I would have had the constant financial worries they have , ever since. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > Hold out for your price Alex don't believe the "low ballers" > > There's a guy with that attitude about 2 kilometers from my place. > > His hull has been sitting there, in the weather, unfinished, for 10 years so far. I think he's > holding out for his price too. > > PDW > | 13724|13662|2007-06-19 14:39:43|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > If you are using a flux core wire and no shielding gas, why do you need to have calm dry conditions? You don't. I have a Readywelder spool gun loaded with flux cored and I can weld in any conditions that allow me to use my stick welder. That said I am also a fan of E6011 rods and I use them for any weld where I want an assurance the root run is full penetration. Many years ago when doing my welding ticket we had to do welds with all sorts of rods then section and polish the welds to see the penetration. The 6010/6011 rods were the ONLY rods that gave a 100% penetration on a horizontal/vertical fillet where you couldn't get at the other side (a T weld for example). Flux cored wire isn't all that cheap and it's smoky & dirty. I can't see any huge gain over stick welding for the most part. Probably use mine for butt welds on plate to minimise the HAZ. PDW Wet and windy or even high humidity and improperly stored rods (ie not in a rod box or oven) have caused me more problems than flux core mig wire any day. > > brentswain38 wrote: Eduardo > I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot > cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, > dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, Dan, > > You are long time boat builders. > > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > > gas and flush. > > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > > thank you > > eduardo > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13725|13725|2007-06-19 14:40:30|drddias|aluminium welding|Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject but please tell me the other details: where to connect the positive/negative what wire what gaz what volts (turn it up!!) what speed for marine plate say 1/4" regards eduardo| 13726|13412|2007-06-19 14:41:16|Alex Christie|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|One local fellow preparing to build a 31 got a hull for $2500 and definitely got more than $2500 worth of parts and rigging from it. Seeing the costs of new rigging will make you run for deals like that very fast! Excellent suggestion. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Buy something like this on ebay: 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels Current bid: US $18,100.00 Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats (ketch rig), convert the ferro hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus back on ebay. There are lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay that would make good parts boats. Even if you spent months or years shopping for deals, you would be hard pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat for what you can buy them for in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" boat is that the parts are all in one place, the boat provide a means to transport and store the parts, and a workshop/living quarters to use while outfitting the new boat. A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top can make a pretty cozy apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the box on top offsets the ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion with the sticks removed. As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro hull is not typically an issue. If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset for a liveaboard. With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and start putting the rent in your pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or two) like Alex's. Most of the work has been done, and the price is typically going to be less than the cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit out the hull(s) with the parts stripped from the parts boats, and you will have an offshore cruiser for yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for a cruising kitty, and a liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that you can also sell or rent out to give you an income while offshore. Greg ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec room was full of marine gear for a couple of years. I probably spent $30,000 before the hull was started. It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need it and u end up paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan ahead. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my first purchase, a box of SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was nuts cause there was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, fenders, stoves, winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold it all. But there's a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared to what I would pay now. And if you change your mind or your wife takes away your allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. You can Ebay it all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a profit. I've always thought that once in your mind u're committed to the project buy the deals as they come along. Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, line, chain, heater, stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings etc etc. Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get together on Vancouver Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to build a number of hulls at the same time with him supervising the builds and correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of engines from a distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will talk to u when the order is big. If all of you who want boats started now collecting the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a field in Courtenay two years from now to start your boats u would all be on your way to your own 36's. None of us are getting any younger and time flys i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell asleep, and when I woke up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat either but once u start it seems to come together. Another way is do it the way Experimental Home Built Airplane people build planes. Everybody interested in that model of plane gets together and overseen by a company rep all the interested guys build one plane in a week for the guy who put up the money for the plane. Those who attended to work on the plane leave in a week knowing exactly what they are up against and how to build a plane. If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats at the same time, with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can swear) another half a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short period of time. In the next two years, those who can't weld could take night courses to learn, u could study the Origami Video, and plans, and research the costs, buy the deals. First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to the wife, "Honey, you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love you, and oh by the way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay for 2 months to build a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u might get away with it. Red roses work best. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I am starting to think that people go about build a boat from the wrong > direction. I keep hearing about people buying plans, which is good, then > looking for a place to build and ordering steel, which may be bad. > > Consider that building a boat is like going to college. It is all worth > while only if you FINISH! Anything less than 100% ton is essentially total > failure. > > A big part of the problem I think, may be that people start with the hull. > The hull is a huge immovable object of little worth to anyone else until it > is completely outfitted. So if you don't finish you lose nearly your entire > investment, in cash and labor. > > So what if you work at this from the other direction. Leave the hull until > dead last. Work on getting the engine, masts and rigging, deck hardware, > sails, head, galley, portlights, ballast etc. If something goes wrong you > are sitting on things that can be stored easily without losing much value, > can be sold to some other builder, or sold off piece by piece on Ebay. If > you move it is no big deal hauling this stuff along with you. So you've got > equity, rather than a rusting hulk sitting on land that you are paying for. > > Having every thing else you need except the hull means that you could buy a > hull like Alex's, and in a couple of months have it sitting in the water, > sailing and finishing at the same time if you like. Or you could build the > hull yourself, but this way your chances of actually finishing it go way up. > > Just some thoughts from someone who will never build his own boat! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 2:34 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > There is often a large gap between asking and selling price in boats, > > especially if they need work. The asking price often reflects how much > > the > > owner has "sunk" into the boat. The selling price more often reflects how > > much it will cost the buyer to bring the boat up to spec. > > > > Finishing costs include more than time and money. There are hidden costs. > > > > An unfinished boat, it could be months or years before you can use her. > > If > > you buy a finished boat, you have the use of it today. This has value - > > otherwise why get a boat? The cost of doing without is your lost > > opportunity cost. The longer it takes to finish, the greater the lost > > opportunity. > > > > An unfinished boat may never be finished. The future is unpredictable. > > Circumstances change. You may have to sell her before she is finished and > > lose money in the process. This is your risk cost. > > > > A more accurate estimate of finishing costs can be: > > > > cost = time + money + opportunity + risk > > opportunity = value x time > > risk = chance of failure x cost of failure > > > > Opportunity and risk costs differ from person to person, as does the value > > of their time. $15K might be a great deal for one person, and bad deal > > for > > another. In the end, a boat is only worth as much as someone (the buyer) > > is > > willing to pay. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > > On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:31 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten again.... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > >> > >> I can well imagine that having a boat building company throw a hull > >> together for you(generic) would cost a significant amount. I would > >> also expect to find that the labour bill would represent a > >> significant percentage of the overall cost. If I am thinking of the > >> same company, I don't recall them turning out and successfully > >> selling many hulls of this construction method. If you have seen > >> Alex's boat & can categorically state that you feel it is worth > >> C$15,000, we differ on our opinions. If you have not seen it, > >> recently, how can you assess it's value by a comparison to an > >> arbitrary market value figure, offered by one professional boat > >> builder? When someone steps up to the plate & pays 15 grand for > >> Alex's boat, I'll be proven wrong. I just know that it won't be me. > > > > FWIW, I can buy a completely welded & painted hull, with 4 sails, > > reconditioned engine, g/ > > box, shaft & prop, ballasted, with 2 sheet winches, asking $15K AUD, 10 > > minutes from my > > place. I'm seriously considering it. It's an old boat, interior removed > > for > > a refit then the > > owner has decided to move on to another project, but there's no rust > > anywhere in the > > interior and a good barrier paint job inside as well as outside. Below the > > WL it needs some > > work but structurally there's no problems I can see. Draws more water than > > I > > want, > > otherwise I'd make an offer. Thinking about it anyway. > > > > If Brent thinks Alex's hull is worth $15K and there's a lot of upside in > > finishing it, one > > obvious thing to do is for Brent to buy it, finsh it and sell it at a fat > > profit, thereby funding > > the cruising kitty some more. > > > > Unfinished boats are worth what someone will pay for them, and it's likely > > to be less than > > the material cost to date. That's just how things are. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date: 15/06/2007 11:31 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13727|13412|2007-06-19 14:41:26|aaron riis|Re: transverse web on single keel?|i've got another question, my anchor winch is mounted in the way that Brent's is welded to the forward part of the cabin. i am wondering if i have a really heavy pull if it will pull the eighth inch cabin plate forward. thinking of reinforcing it from the inside. is this necessary? Aaron --- Tom wrote: > Hello Aaron > Got pictures? > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in > the single keel up to > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank > tops, ends, and baffles > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine > is probably a tad > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had > mine on the hoist I set > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment > or flex and I can say > its rock solid. > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "aaron riis" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on > single keel? > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of > steelwork on > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of > the > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which > also > > spread out the keel load. I understand that > single > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels > using > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within > the > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute > peace > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the > single > > keel. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > with > >> excellent gear > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > >> often a fraction the > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > >> people bought the > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > >> usable gear off them. > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > >> > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > >> > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > >> > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > >> (ketch rig), convert > >> the ferro > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > >> back on ebay. There are > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > that > >> would make good parts > >> > boats. > >> > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > >> deals, you would be hard > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > for > >> what you can buy > >> them for > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the > "parts" > >> boat is that the > >> parts are > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > >> transport and store > >> the parts, > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > >> outfitting the new boat. > >> > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > can > >> make a pretty cozy > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > box > >> on top offsets the > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable > motion > >> with the sticks > >> removed. > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > hull > >> is not typically > >> an issue. > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > >> for a liveaboard. > >> > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > start > >> putting the rent > >> in your > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > two) > >> like Alex's. > >> Most of the > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > >> going to be less than the > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > out > >> the hull(s) with > >> the parts > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will > have > >> an offshore cruiser for > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell > for a > >> cruising kitty, and a > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > you > >> can also sell or > >> rent out > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > >> > > >> > Greg > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > >> again.... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > room > >> was full of marine > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > >> $30,000 before the hull > >> > was started. > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u > need > >> it and u end up > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > >> ahead. I remember > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > >> purchase, a box of > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I > was > >> nuts cause there > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > >> fenders, stoves, > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to > hold > >> it all. But there's > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff > compared > >> to what I would pay > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > >> takes away your > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is > right. > >> You can Ebay it > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > >> profit. > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > >> committed to the > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > line, > >> chain, heater, > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > etc > >> etc. > >> > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > >> together on Vancouver > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > >> build a number of > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > >> builds and > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number > of > >> engines from a > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/| 13728|13594|2007-06-19 14:41:29|Carl Volkwein|Re: 6011|Colin, et-al, I haven't begun welding my boat yet, but hope to start soon. I don't yet what rod I'll use, except, I'm prety sure I'll use "stick" welding. I think what I'll do, is pick a couple diferant alternatives, that I'm sure I can get a supply of locally, and some small pieces of the same material i'll use for the chine bar, and the hull plate, as well as, some short samples of the longetudinals, and weld them together. Then subject the samples to Brent's "big hammer" test. It wouldn't take long, or cost much, it would be very "educational", and it would be FUN as well as giving you added confidence in the integrity of your hull, on a stormy night. I think I'll start with 6013, or 7014, as I used to be familiar with them. I'll let you know what happens. I love this site, espeacially lately, with some of these new posts. carlvolkwein. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > I have just got back from three months in NZ. Some time ago I bought > some 6011 or 6010, I cannot remember which sort. They had to be > ordered specially. They came in a tin and the top had to be cut off > with a cutting disc. When I asked the supplier how I could reseal it > he said usually if they were not used up in a day they were thrown > away. From memory they could not be redried and they were over £100 a > tin. From memory again I think the problem with them is hydrogen > inclusion if they get wet. I think they were Thyssen. They did not > work at all well, and after investigation it was because the open > circuit voltage of my little welder was too low. I gave them away to > a friend, I may see him at the weekend and be able to ask if he still > has them. > > Regards, > > Ted > Hi Ted Hope you had a good time in NZ ! Yes - I remember discussing the problems you had with some sealed-in-the-can rods during a visit to your site, ages ago. But for some reason I thought that those problematic rods were Low Hydrogen jobs (?). But maybe my memory is failing me ? I dug up quite a bit of information whilst hunting around for 6011's and in case it's of interest to others on the forum it can be condensed into a couple of paragraphs : Unlike rutile (sand-based) fluxed-rods, the flux used on 6010/11 rods is based on cellulose with a few added chemicals. During the welding process, this flux gives off gases which prevent oxidation of the weld-pool. As there is little residual slag to cover the weld-pool, the consequence of this is that the weld-pool solidifies relatively quickly (fast-freezes), and there is precious little residue to form the slag inclusions more associated with rutile fluxed rods. But one negative consequence of this 'volatile' flux is that the surface is left a lot rougher than when using a rutile rod. Although originally intended for use on AC, when the rods are used with reverse-DC polarity, the gas emitted by the flux coating is sufficiently strong to blow-away the weld-pool, and thus these rods can be used to easily cut through steel (up to 0.5" plate, or 1" dia rod). What I have found to be not so clear is how this flux coating actually causes the deep penetration itself - and the assumption I'm currently working on is that this is due to the liberation of hydrogen from moisture within the cellulose during the passage of heavy current through the rod. This assumption is supported by reports that if these rods fail to maintain an arc, this problem can be rectified by briefly dipping the rod into water, to restore the moisture content. This would also seem to be supported by Brent's comment that these rods can be left out of the tin for months on end. Indeed, it would appear that unlike Low Hydrogen rods which are stored in tins to keep moisture *away* from them, it may just be that 6010/11 cellulosic rods are stored in tins to *retain* a certain level of moisture in the flux, which appears necessary to maintain an arc and to ensure adequate penetration. I must stress that all of the above is based on info I've downloaded from the web, as I haven't even *seen* a 6011 yet, let alone burn one. However, Paul Thompson is kindly sending me a few from New Zealand (nothing like international co-operation !!) and so I'm looking forward - with some trepidation - to experimenting with these, using an old BOC TransArc 240A which I have on site which supplies both 50 and 75 OCV, the higher voltage of which I understand may be necessary. I'll keep y'all posted as to the outcome. Colin --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13729|13712|2007-06-19 14:41:43|Carl Volkwein|Re: Alex's hull|Alex, Did you get the film done? If so, were, or how, do you get a copy, and how much? carlvolkwein@... Alex wrote: Well, among other things, it was my focus on making the film that really sidelined the boat. I underestimated the cost and time to make a detailed 3 hour technical video, which took nearly a year to edit and produce, and consumed thousands of dollars in equipment, time not spent working for money, and extra costs of labour having Brent do work I would normally have done. I even produced all the music for the film, which though it represented but minutes on the film sucked up weeks of effort. I admire people that peel off stuff like that fast, but didn't happen that way for me as I waded through unfamiliar technology. I believed strongly in promoting a unique building system, recording these techniques for posterity. But had I not made the film, I'd not have had to sell the hull. Ironic. I was trained as a boatbuilder, but it turns out that I am also an obsessive film-maker. I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. Alex --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13730|13412|2007-06-19 14:42:09|aaron riis|Re: transverse web on single keel?|hi, Tom, no pics yet, sorry. my tank top will be only on the keel, not the hull, because i need to maximize headroom. I already have 2 either side. just thinking that the bulkhead in the keel would be a perfect strong point. yes i put in chine doublers. first i coated them with zinc paint for a slight fear of hidden corosion. also i did end up with some distortion doing it. altho i want to be past the steelwork, i want to be absolutely confident in it. Aaron --- Tom wrote: > Hello Aaron > Got pictures? > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in > the single keel up to > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank > tops, ends, and baffles > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine > is probably a tad > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had > mine on the hoist I set > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment > or flex and I can say > its rock solid. > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "aaron riis" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on > single keel? > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of > steelwork on > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of > the > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which > also > > spread out the keel load. I understand that > single > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels > using > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within > the > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute > peace > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the > single > > keel. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > with > >> excellent gear > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > >> often a fraction the > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > >> people bought the > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > >> usable gear off them. > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > >> > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > >> > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > >> > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > >> (ketch rig), convert > >> the ferro > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > >> back on ebay. There are > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > that > >> would make good parts > >> > boats. > >> > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > >> deals, you would be hard > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > for > >> what you can buy > >> them for > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the > "parts" > >> boat is that the > >> parts are > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > >> transport and store > >> the parts, > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > >> outfitting the new boat. > >> > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > can > >> make a pretty cozy > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > box > >> on top offsets the > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable > motion > >> with the sticks > >> removed. > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > hull > >> is not typically > >> an issue. > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > >> for a liveaboard. > >> > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > start > >> putting the rent > >> in your > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > two) > >> like Alex's. > >> Most of the > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > >> going to be less than the > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > out > >> the hull(s) with > >> the parts > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will > have > >> an offshore cruiser for > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell > for a > >> cruising kitty, and a > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > you > >> can also sell or > >> rent out > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > >> > > >> > Greg > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > >> again.... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > room > >> was full of marine > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > >> $30,000 before the hull > >> > was started. > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u > need > >> it and u end up > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > >> ahead. I remember > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > >> purchase, a box of > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I > was > >> nuts cause there > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > >> fenders, stoves, > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to > hold > >> it all. But there's > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff > compared > >> to what I would pay > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > >> takes away your > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is > right. > >> You can Ebay it > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > >> profit. > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > >> committed to the > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > line, > >> chain, heater, > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > etc > >> etc. > >> > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > >> together on Vancouver > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > >> build a number of > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > >> builds and > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number > of > >> engines from a > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail| 13731|13594|2007-06-19 14:43:03|edward_stoneuk|6011|Hi Colin, I went to see the rods yesterday. They are 6010 not 6011. They are Bohler Thyssen Foc CEL. Regards, Ted| 13732|13412|2007-06-19 14:43:59|aaron riis|Re: Oh, NO! not corten again....|I bought a 26 ft thunderbird for 700 dollars. in it i got sails, winches, cushons, all kinds of gear. one of the few thunderbirds that had been sailed offshore. the hull was completely rotton from the inside. i took it to the dump. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > Friends in Vancouver bought the ugliest most > distorted steel boat from > the bank for $3,000 . In it they found a 30 hp > yanmar with 50 hours on > it, new sails and rig, mast, stainless tank etc etc > . After stripping > it they spent a day trying to break the 1/8th inch > hull up with a > backhoe. They were only able to dent it without > making single hole. > They had to cut it up with a torch.They saved > thousands on gear. > Nobody else would buy it because they valued style > over substance. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > with excellent gear > > sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > often a fraction the > > price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > people bought the > > fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > usable gear off them. > > The boats often sold for around $1500. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Buy something like this on ebay: > > > > > > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > > > > > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > (ketch rig), convert > > the ferro > > > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > back on ebay. > There are > > > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > that would make good > parts > > > boats. > > > > > > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > deals, you would be > hard > > > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > for what you can buy > > them for > > > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the "parts" > boat is that the > > parts are > > > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > transport and store > > the parts, > > > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > outfitting the new boat. > > > > > > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > can make a pretty cozy > > > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > box on top offsets the > > > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable motion > with the sticks > > removed. > > > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > hull is not typically > > an issue. > > > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > for a liveaboard. > > > > > > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > start putting the rent > > in your > > > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > two) like Alex's. > > Most of the > > > work has been done, and the price is typically > going to be less > than the > > > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > out the hull(s) with > > the parts > > > stripped from the parts boats, and you will have > an offshore > cruiser for > > > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell for > a cruising kitty, > and a > > > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > you can also sell or > > rent out > > > to give you an income while offshore. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > again.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > room was full of marine > > > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > $30,000 before the hull > > > was started. > > > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u need > it and u end up > > > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > ahead. I remember > > > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > purchase, a box of > > > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I was > nuts cause there > > > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > fenders, stoves, > > > winches etc until I finally built a shed to hold > it all. But there's > > > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff compared > to what I would pay > > > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > takes away your > > > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is right. > You can Ebay it > > > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > profit. > > > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > committed to the > > > project buy the deals as they come along. > > > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > line, chain, heater, > > > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > etc etc. > > > > > > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > together on Vancouver > > > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > build a number of > > > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > builds and > > > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number of > engines from a > > > distributor. Bulk buy your steel. Suppliers will > talk to u when the > > > order is big. If all of you who want boats > started now collecting > > > the things needed for it and agreed to meet in a > field in Courtenay > > > two years from now to start your boats u would > all be on your way to > > > your own 36's. None of us are getting any > younger and time flys > > > i.e. "I sat in the chair doing nothing, fell > asleep, and when I woke > > > up I was old." I couldn't afford to build a boat > either but once u > > > start it seems to come together. > > > Another way is do it the way Experimental Home > Built Airplane > > > people build planes. Everybody interested in > that model of plane > > > gets together and overseen by a company rep all > the interested guys > > > build one plane in a week for the guy who put up > the money for the > > > plane. Those who attended to work on the plane > leave in a week > > > knowing exactly what they are up against and how > to build a plane. > > > If all of you interested in a Swain, built boats > at the same time, > > > with Brent cracking the whip ( I've heard he can > swear) another half > > > a dozen SW's could join the fleet in a short > period of time. In the > > > next two years, those who can't weld could take > night courses to > > > learn, u could study the Origami Video, and > plans, and research the > > > costs, buy the deals. > > > > > > First go buy flowers, then here's what u say to > the wife, "Honey, > > > you're beautiful, have I told u how much I love > you, and oh by the > > > way two years from now I'm going to Courtenay > for 2 months to build > > > a boat." With 2 years notice to the queen u > might === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz| 13733|13712|2007-06-19 14:45:08|Phil S.|Re: Alex's hull|Alex, As a multi-media developer I think you did an outstanding job on the video, definitely great for a first effort. I would have thought that everyone on this board would buy a copy. I hope your troubles lessen soon. Sincerely Phil| 13734|13721|2007-06-19 17:38:50|brentswain38|Re: Broken Group|There are buses in both Ucluelet and a small one to Bamfield, overpriced , but available from Port Alberni. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > I will be arriving Broken Group west side of Vancouver Island in > August. I wish to pick up a (by bus) passenger nearest place that a > bus would stop. Any suggestions would be helpful. I know that there > is a Nanaimo/Victoria tourist van service that stops in Ucluelet and > Tofino but was wondering if there is any service closer to Broken Group. > > Thanks in advance.... > > Gary > | 13735|13712|2007-06-19 17:40:47|Wesley Cox|Re: Alex's hull|I want to say (again) publicly, it is outstanding. Direct, to the point, and full of excellent shots of the practical, time saving tricks that really matter and are a trademark of Brent's style (and mine). I watched it twice as soon as I got it, like a kid in a candy store. It's about time to watch it again. It's one that I cherish (maybe even more than Shrek :) ). ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Volkwein To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re:Alex's hull Alex, Did you get the film done? If so, were, or how, do you get a copy, and how much? carlvolkwein@... Alex wrote: Well, among other things, it was my focus on making the film that really sidelined the boat. I underestimated the cost and time to make a detailed 3 hour technical video, which took nearly a year to edit and produce, and consumed thousands of dollars in equipment, time not spent working for money, and extra costs of labour having Brent do work I would normally have done. I even produced all the music for the film, which though it represented but minutes on the film sucked up weeks of effort. I admire people that peel off stuff like that fast, but didn't happen that way for me as I waded through unfamiliar technology. I believed strongly in promoting a unique building system, recording these techniques for posterity. But had I not made the film, I'd not have had to sell the hull. Ironic. I was trained as a boatbuilder, but it turns out that I am also an obsessive film-maker. I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. Alex --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.1/854 - Release Date: 6/19/2007 1:12 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13736|13662|2007-06-19 17:40:47|Wesley Cox|Re: mig welding|I agree. 6011 is what I always use unless there's a reason to do otherwise. 6010 is good, too, and a bit prettier, but AC is better for rusty or "dirty" metal (not too dirty). Penetration is completely reliable. It is a bit tricky for a newbie, but not that hard to learn. I've used flux core wire, even on a paid job for a bit, but won't again. It's just as smoky and dirty as stick welding with not nearly as much penetration for the same power input. It also is a pain working on a larger project, such as a boat. The length of the stinger is limited. Extending cables on a stick welder is relatively cheap. Mine are about 60 feet, which is plenty. With quick disconnects, extending them further would be simple. Flux core wire, at least where I am, is also considerably more expensive than 6011 per weight of metal deposited. Also, with practice, 6011 welds, though not as sharp as 7018, for instance, can be made acceptably nice looking. My 6011 welds look far better than those of a beginner using any rod or flux core. ----- Original Message ----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 6:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > If you are using a flux core wire and no shielding gas, why do you need to have calm dry conditions? You don't. I have a Readywelder spool gun loaded with flux cored and I can weld in any conditions that allow me to use my stick welder. That said I am also a fan of E6011 rods and I use them for any weld where I want an assurance the root run is full penetration. Many years ago when doing my welding ticket we had to do welds with all sorts of rods then section and polish the welds to see the penetration. The 6010/6011 rods were the ONLY rods that gave a 100% penetration on a horizontal/vertical fillet where you couldn't get at the other side (a T weld for example). Flux cored wire isn't all that cheap and it's smoky & dirty. I can't see any huge gain over stick welding for the most part. Probably use mine for butt welds on plate to minimise the HAZ. PDW Wet and windy or even high humidity and improperly stored rods (ie not in a rod box or oven) have caused me more problems than flux core mig wire any day. > > brentswain38 wrote: Eduardo > I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot > cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, > dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, Dan, > > You are long time boat builders. > > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > > gas and flush. > > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > > thank you > > eduardo > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.1/854 - Release Date: 6/19/2007 1:12 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13737|13720|2007-06-19 17:41:06|seeratlas|Re: Mast ventilators|Two 'gotcha's' to look out for. First, its amazing how much water finds its way into a hollow mast, whether by condensation, or rain, or morning dew, or fog etc, therefore, some way to drain this out needs to be designed in. Second, make sure the step you put your mast on is lower than the top of your vent to the inside of the cabin for the same reason, to keep water out of the boat. Some kind of a raised pipe within a pipe might work, with the cap closing down on the inner one, with your drain opening the area between the inner and outer. CAVEAT :) I've not done this myself so i'm 'opining' here but I do have experience at getting a lot of water into a boat :) heheheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Hollow masts, as the sun warms them causing the air inside to rise, > would make excellent ventilators if connected into the cabin top at > their base and fitted with a spring closing valve at the top that can > be closed in a sea-way. Any views on this? > > Regards, > Ted > | 13738|13712|2007-06-19 17:41:12|Paul|Re: Alex's hull|> I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at > the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell > our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. > Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I > struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my > lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to > clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, > energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. > > Alex I agree! I am a videographer (among other skills) who did training videos for mental health workers and when I first began building boats I had decided to document the construction with the goal of selling them when it was done. I soon realized that I had a choice between building efficiently or making the video watchable. The boat won so there will be no construction video. Paul H.| 13739|13594|2007-06-19 17:43:20|brentswain38|6011|6010 prefers DC and are a pain in the ass on AC. 6011 prefers DC , but works OK on AC. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > I went to see the rods yesterday. They are 6010 not 6011. They are > Bohler Thyssen Foc CEL. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13740|13412|2007-06-19 17:44:06|brentswain38|Re: transverse web on single keel?|What's the breaking strength of your anchor rode. That is the max you can put on your winch. At 60,000 psi I dont think your rode will match the strength of the steel around the winch feet. Easy to calculate it tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > i've got another question, > my anchor winch is mounted in the way that Brent's is > welded to the forward part of the cabin. i am > wondering if i have a really heavy pull if it will > pull the eighth inch cabin plate forward. thinking of > reinforcing it from the inside. is this necessary? > Aaron > --- Tom wrote: > > > Hello Aaron > > Got pictures? > > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in > > the single keel up to > > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank > > tops, ends, and baffles > > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine > > is probably a tad > > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had > > mine on the hoist I set > > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment > > or flex and I can say > > its rock solid. > > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "aaron riis" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on > > single keel? > > > > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of > > steelwork on > > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of > > the > > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which > > also > > > spread out the keel load. I understand that > > single > > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels > > using > > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within > > the > > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute > > peace > > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the > > single > > > keel. > > > > > > Aaron > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > > with > > >> excellent gear > > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > > >> often a fraction the > > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > > >> people bought the > > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > > >> usable gear off them. > > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > > >> Brent > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > > >> > > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > >> > > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > > >> (ketch rig), convert > > >> the ferro > > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > > >> back on ebay. There are > > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > > that > > >> would make good parts > > >> > boats. > > >> > > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > > >> deals, you would be hard > > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > > for > > >> what you can buy > > >> them for > > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the > > "parts" > > >> boat is that the > > >> parts are > > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > > >> transport and store > > >> the parts, > > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > > >> outfitting the new boat. > > >> > > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > > can > > >> make a pretty cozy > > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > > box > > >> on top offsets the > > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable > > motion > > >> with the sticks > > >> removed. > > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > > hull > > >> is not typically > > >> an issue. > > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > > >> for a liveaboard. > > >> > > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > > start > > >> putting the rent > > >> in your > > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > > two) > > >> like Alex's. > > >> Most of the > > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > > >> going to be less than the > > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > > out > > >> the hull(s) with > > >> the parts > > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will > > have > > >> an offshore cruiser for > > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell > > for a > > >> cruising kitty, and a > > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > > you > > >> can also sell or > > >> rent out > > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > > >> > > > >> > Greg > > >> > > > >> > ________________________________ > > >> > > > >> > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > > >> again.... > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > > room > > >> was full of marine > > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > > >> $30,000 before the hull > > >> > was started. > > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u > > need > > >> it and u end up > > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > > >> ahead. I remember > > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > > >> purchase, a box of > > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I > > was > > >> nuts cause there > > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > > >> fenders, stoves, > > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to > > hold > > >> it all. But there's > > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff > > compared > > >> to what I would pay > > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > > >> takes away your > > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is > > right. > > >> You can Ebay it > > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > > >> profit. > > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > > >> committed to the > > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > > line, > > >> chain, heater, > > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > > etc > > >> etc. > > >> > > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > > >> together on Vancouver > > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > > >> build a number of > > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > > >> builds and > > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number > > of > > >> engines from a > > > === message truncated === > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > | 13741|13594|2007-06-19 20:27:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: 6011|6010 is popular with pipe welders running DC machines for the root pass. It gives excellent penetration with a sharply rippled bead that does not look real nice. The slag though chips off very easy, which is the reason I believe it is popular for root passes where you want to be sure of no slag inclusions. The smoke has a very strong smell that burns your nostrils. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 2:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:6011 Hi Colin, I went to see the rods yesterday. They are 6010 not 6011. They are Bohler Thyssen Foc CEL. Regards, Ted | 13742|13725|2007-06-20 00:06:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium welding|Eduardo, Polarity is the same for all Mig welding steel or aluminum. This would be positive electrode or what is called 'Reverse' polarity from what you would stick weld with. The reason is that the current flows from positive to negative, and you want the heat going into the puddle, not into the relatively tiny welding wire. With stick you need the current flowing into the much larger rod to melt it completely. You want to use straight Argon for aluminum. If you get crater cracking at the finish of a weld you should suspect you have a leaky gas hose or contaminated Argon. I got a bottle of argon contaminated with nitrogen once. I couldn't make a good weld no how after changing the bottle. I put the old bottle back on that had a tiny bit left and the problems went away. The gas supplier admitted to me that his supplier accidentally mixed liquid argon with liquid nitrogen. Oops! A hundred grand or so of worthless gas! I didn't specify the voltage because so often machines don't have a volt meter, and I don't really know an exact number. So I have always just kept turning it up until all the indicators I mentioned show up. This isn't a subtle thing you will miss when it goes from short arc to spray arc, it happens quite suddenly. Speed is a similar issue, although speed is directly proportional to current. If you double the speed you double the current. Makes sense, it takes X amount of energy to vaporize Y amount of wire. Double Y and you need to double X. As you keep raising the voltage the wire stickout will get shorter and shorter, so you need to raise the wire speed so it doesn't burn back into the tip. The wire feed speed is constant. The stick out of the wire adjusts automatically when you are using a constant voltage machine. This happens because the resistance of the arc determines how much current it can carry, and how fast the wire burns. When the arc is short, the current goes up and the wires burns back. As the wire gets shorter the arc gets longer, increasing the resistance, and lowering the current so the wire burns slower and extends out further. I have welded with constant current stick machines using a Miller gun with a control that has a switch for use with constant current machines. these controls have what looks like an extra small ground clamp that you place nearer the weld. What is does is measure the arc voltage and adjust the speed of the wire feed motor to match the current. This setup works but has a few gotchas. It has a tendency to give a cold start because the current can't rise real high at start. I frequently preheated with a gas torch if starting weld quality was important. It is much more sensitive to your technique too. A constant voltage machine is much preferred. About the worst thing you can have is a cheap Mig welding machine. Cheap machines will always make a cold start because the transformer is sized to provide only the machines rated welding current, not the 1000 amps or so that will instantly vaporize a cold wire on start. So you get wire stubbing, and poor quality at the start of every weld. Buy a good old industrial machine, sell it for what you paid when you are done. In case you are wondering about how I know about this stuff above, it's not because I'm a welder. I was an industrial electrician first. During my second career in the greenhouse industry I also did welding machine repairs for my partner who owned an industrial gas supply. I would test weld with all kinds of machines to figure out what repairs they might need. Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. Wire size determines the current you will be welding with. Unfortunately Mig machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size that is too small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is very popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from 1/16" wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled strap and angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so many weld failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the wire size to 0.045". That made welding somewhat difficult on such thin material. You had to put the heat in the right place and a 1" long weld was done almost before you had time to think about what you were doing. The weld failures stopped though, and our welding costs went down quite a lot too. Don't be fooled into thinking that your bead has great strength because it is pretty, if the wire was too small you will very surprised at how little penetration you will get. On aluminum it is very important that you use the right alloy for the base metal. The right alloy is usually NOT the same alloy as the base metal! The weld bead and the base metal are mixing at the fusion zone, creating a third alloy. So you typically find the 6061 and 6063 structural alloys being welded with 4043 wire. The 6000 series alloys lose strength when welded because they are heat treated. The welding heat anneals the area near the weld. 5000 series alloys typically used for marine plate are not heat treated so they lose very little strength when welded. You are going to want to use probably 5/64 wire on 1/4" plate for good penetration. If your machine won't do a good start on that size wire it is too small for the task. Going to smaller wire could work, but I would do extensive testing of samples before trusting it. Welding small samples can be VERY misleading on aluminum. It heats so quickly that a small sample will be at five hundred degrees in seconds, and will weld very well. The same material in a 4 x 8 sheet and you may not even have the power to get it hot enough to burn your hand! Hope this helps. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "drddias" To: Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] aluminium welding Thanks Gary Lucas for your lesson in the subject but please tell me the other details: where to connect the positive/negative what wire what gaz what volts (turn it up!!) what speed for marine plate say 1/4" regards eduardo | 13743|13710|2007-06-20 00:07:46|heretic_37ft|Re: Another Heretic Speaks|Michael: I'm sure all walks of life are welcome here. A farm is a great thing but I want to talk sailing stories! You are a lucky guy! Please accept my apologies and miscommunications. Heretic_37ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Not for Farmers ?? > Would that be the same farmers that have space for the amateur builder, as has been suggested on this site. > The same farmer who is often quite popular in times of need, because they have trucks and trailers and other resources. > The kind of resources and thinking that lend themselves to building projects. > I would suggest that many farmers have a lot of things in common with Brent. > But you want to exclude them ? > Let me just say that I have the room required to build any size boat, I have a means of lifting my boat off the trailer. > I have a truck and trailer for my current boat. I can do repairs and paint the bottom on the farm. I do not pay stoorage fees when on the hard, although most of the time my boat is in the water. > Try working on your boat on the lawn in front of the condo. I also have a condo within walking distance of my boat when it is in the water. > If Brent were nearby I would be pleased to pay him to do some welding for me. > > Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: heretic_37ft > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 11:00 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Another Heretic Speaks > > > This group is not for: > > Farmers > Home boys > Politicians > Hate mongers > > Nobody here can do better than Brent! So listen carefully! Ask > questions. We are lucky to get real advice from Mr. Swain and the > other fine sailors here! > > Heretic_37ft > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13744|13412|2007-06-21 04:06:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: transverse web on single keel?|The plate is unlikely to pull forward. The back end of the windlass will try and pull up, the front end push down, with a lever arm created by the height of the drum. Shear is 60k, yield is 30k, max SWL 15k PSI. Multiply the circumference of the feet/washers under, times the thickness of the metal, to come up with square inches. Multiply the breaking strength of the chain by the ratio of the lever arm, to get pounds. Divide pounds by square inches, if you are over 15K anywhere, you should probably add something. Likely a stringer under to minimize flexing, and some good sized washers to spread the load are all you need. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on single keel? What's the breaking strength of your anchor rode. That is the max you can put on your winch. At 60,000 psi I dont think your rode will match the strength of the steel around the winch feet. Easy to calculate it tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > i've got another question, > my anchor winch is mounted in the way that Brent's is > welded to the forward part of the cabin. i am > wondering if i have a really heavy pull if it will > pull the eighth inch cabin plate forward. thinking of > reinforcing it from the inside. is this necessary? > Aaron > --- Tom wrote: > > > Hello Aaron > > Got pictures? > > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in > > the single keel up to > > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank > > tops, ends, and baffles > > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine > > is probably a tad > > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had > > mine on the hoist I set > > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment > > or flex and I can say > > its rock solid. > > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "aaron riis" > > To: yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on > > single keel? > > > > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of > > steelwork on > > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of > > the > > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which > > also > > > spread out the keel load. I understand that > > single > > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels > > using > > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within > > the > > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute > > peace > > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the > > single > > > keel. > > > > > > Aaron > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > > with > > >> excellent gear > > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > > >> often a fraction the > > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > > >> people bought the > > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > > >> usable gear off them. > > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > > >> Brent > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > > >> > > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > >> > > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > > >> (ketch rig), convert > > >> the ferro > > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > > >> back on ebay. There are > > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > > that > > >> would make good parts > > >> > boats. > > >> > > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > > >> deals, you would be hard > > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > > for > > >> what you can buy > > >> them for > > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the > > "parts" > > >> boat is that the > > >> parts are > > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > > >> transport and store > > >> the parts, > > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > > >> outfitting the new boat. > > >> > > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > > can > > >> make a pretty cozy > > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > > box > > >> on top offsets the > > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable > > motion > > >> with the sticks > > >> removed. > > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > > hull > > >> is not typically > > >> an issue. > > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > > >> for a liveaboard. > > >> > > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > > start > > >> putting the rent > > >> in your > > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > > two) > > >> like Alex's. > > >> Most of the > > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > > >> going to be less than the > > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > > out > > >> the hull(s) with > > >> the parts > > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will > > have > > >> an offshore cruiser for > > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell > > for a > > >> cruising kitty, and a > > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > > you > > >> can also sell or > > >> rent out > > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > > >> > > > >> > Greg > > >> > > > >> > ________________________________ > > >> > > > >> > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > >> [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > >> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > > >> again.... > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > > room > > >> was full of marine > > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > > >> $30,000 before the hull > > >> > was started. > > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u > > need > > >> it and u end up > > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > > >> ahead. I remember > > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > > >> purchase, a box of > > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I > > was > > >> nuts cause there > > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > > >> fenders, stoves, > > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to > > hold > > >> it all. But there's > > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff > > compared > > >> to what I would pay > > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > > >> takes away your > > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is > > right. > > >> You can Ebay it > > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > > >> profit. > > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > > >> committed to the > > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > > line, > > >> chain, heater, > > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > > etc > > >> etc. > > >> > > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > > >> together on Vancouver > > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > > >> build a number of > > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > > >> builds and > > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number > > of > > >> engines from a > > > === message truncated === > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo.com/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13745|13662|2007-06-21 04:07:18|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I agree. 6011 is what I always use unless there's a reason to do otherwise. 6010 is good, too, and a bit prettier, but AC is better for rusty or "dirty" metal (not too dirty). Penetration is completely reliable. It is a bit tricky for a newbie, but not that hard to learn. I've used flux core wire, even on a paid job for a bit, but won't again. It's just as smoky and dirty as stick welding with not nearly as much penetration for the same power input. It also is a pain working on a larger project, such as a boat. The length of the stinger is limited. Agree. That's why I have a Readywelder spool gun. It still has some of the limits but you have a lot more freedom than with a std 10' MIG stinger. Runs off a welder's DC supply so you can feed it from an AC/DC stick, a TIG or a MIG unit. It also runs quite happily off of 2 12V batteries in series. I still regard it as a special purpose welder, though, and most times I use my 40 year old, 250A AC stick welder. Hey, it was good enough for my father, and he was a boilermaker/welder.... won't run off a 15A or even 20A single phase supply, but it's overkill for boat building anyway. Friend of mine has just bought one of these Chinese made 3 (or5) in 1 welder/cutters - supposed to be a 160A AC/DC TIG, stick and 40A plasma cutter running off a 15A single phase supply. I will be very interested in seeing how it performs as the price was a little over $1000 AUD. PDW| 13746|13710|2007-06-21 04:07:21|Michael Casling|Re: Another Heretic Speaks|Agreed and accepted. I am sure you were mostly addressing the off topic posts recently, but I could not resist a plug for the rural folk. The farm actually keeps me tied to the land, but that will not last forever. My clients also require my attention with my day job. In the meantime I am getting in plenty of sailing. My capable crew ripped the headsail on the kids boat last week while I was away on business. Fixed it last night. I can not weld but I can use a sewing machine. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" wrote: > > Michael: > > I'm sure all walks of life are welcome here. A farm is a great > thing but I want to talk sailing stories! You are a lucky guy! > > Please accept my apologies and miscommunications. > > Heretic_37ft | 13747|13712|2007-06-21 04:07:52|sae140|Re: Alex's hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Alex, > Sorry to hear about your situation with your hull. Just want to say that some weeks back I was interested in purchasing Alex's hull based on the strength of the photographs and the integrity displayed by both Alex and Brent on this forum. There were 2 reasons I didn't proceed - both unconnected to the quality of the build: the first was that I couldn't get a single quotation for shipping to the UK as deck cargo. This was a new area of commerce for me, so I might have gone about it the wrong way, but I was left with the distinct impression that unless something fits into a shipping container, then it's simply too much hassle for the average freight forwarding operator. The second reason was that importing a part-completed hull would fall foul of EU RCD rules. I think Alex's hull is a damned good deal for somebody, and I wish him every success with it's sale. Colin| 13748|13712|2007-06-21 04:08:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Alex's hull|Another option is to sell the hull and film copyrights as a business. The buyer finishes both the hull and the film and pays for it with sales and tax savings. These days it is relatively simple and low cost to put up a web page with a shopping cart, so someone can buy the film direct by credit card over the web. You don't need a merchant account to do this. The key to selling a business like this would be to have the web page and shopping cart in place, use this group to promote traffic, and show that there are sales and growth. The more sales, them more growth, the higher the price. In that way you are not selling an unfinished hull, you are selling a way to make money. The second option is usually more attractive to buyers. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 6:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] re:Alex's hull Well, among other things, it was my focus on making the film that really sidelined the boat. I underestimated the cost and time to make a detailed 3 hour technical video, which took nearly a year to edit and produce, and consumed thousands of dollars in equipment, time not spent working for money, and extra costs of labour having Brent do work I would normally have done. I even produced all the music for the film, which though it represented but minutes on the film sucked up weeks of effort. I admire people that peel off stuff like that fast, but didn't happen that way for me as I waded through unfamiliar technology. I believed strongly in promoting a unique building system, recording these techniques for posterity. But had I not made the film, I'd not have had to sell the hull. Ironic. I was trained as a boatbuilder, but it turns out that I am also an obsessive film-maker. I don't advise anyone who wants to compete a boat to make a film at the same time. Sadly, if my hull does not sell, we will probably sell our house. Now you see the wages of being a servant to two mistresses. Didn't mean to flog my boo-hoo story here, not seeking charity while I struggle to keep our financial ship afloat, as I am willing to take my lumps for the risk I took in my boat-film venture. I just wanted to clarify what I learned, which is that as long as you keep your focus, energy and time solely on your boat, it will come together successfully. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13749|13288|2007-06-21 04:08:34|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's boat|As I said, there's a person around the corner from my place with a fixed idea of what his creation is worth, too. It's been there unfinished for 10 years to my certain knowledge. Another one I know took over 10 years to build his Roberts Spray design. Launched in 2004. Put it on the market a year after finishing for $150K. Last time I looked it was still unsold. Anything, anywhere, is worth only what a willing buyer will pay for it. Fundamental law of a free market. No compulsion on a seller to sell at that price, of course. However one does need to keep in mind the value of money over time. There is an opportunity cost involved in hanging out for a price, if it's going to take a while, and that opportunity cost has to be recognised. If you're dealing with borrowed money, it's the interest charges compounding on the opportunity cost. Some 20 years ago I sold an unfinished hull my father had been building, for a song, as part of finalising his estate. Hulls are big, heavy, expensive to move and require a lot of work before they're useable. All of those factors limit the potential market severely. I've got a copy of Alex's video and it was worth everything I paid for it. I've watched it a number of times and studied bits of the build closely. Personally, I don't think there's anything serious or even slightly suspect in the build of that hull (would have liked to see how you finish welded the outside of the centre seam, tho, and the outside welds on the inner sides of the bilge keels. I know how I'd do it, but...). Structurally, I wouldn't hesitate in buying it if it was what I was after, and it was close enough to make moving it feasible. I'd like to see that hull finished and the rest of the build documented in the same way, with the same attention to detail, that Alex put into the first part. But peoples' goals & needs change. NONE of that - build quality, cost of materials & labour to date - has ANYTHING to do with what it can be sold for. I just priced sufficient hull plate, framing bar, longs, pipe etc for a 15,600 lb displacement steel hull (ie, slightly less displacement than the 36' Swain hull) and the cost comes to just under $7,000 AUD, from a steel wholesaler in Melbourne. That is a FACT. 300 odd hours labour at a cheapish $30/hour is $9K in labour plus consumables. I don't think that the asking price is out of line at all with the costs involved. Probably should be a $20K hull in fact. Unfortunately, as I keep emphasising, sunk costs have NOTHING to do with sale price. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When I was selling my last boat, people kept telling me to practically > give it away, and were constantly badmouthing it. What I got for it > was no skin off their asses. They were simply on a > smart ass, childish power trip at my expense.I found out who my real > friends were , and how many ,who I had mistaken for real friends ,were > anything but. I got to give one of them major payback. > I held out for more than double of what they were suggesting. > It took a while , during which I was extremely poor, but since I sold > her the new owner cruised to Mexico and back , then built another one > of my designs. He got what he paid for her. > As a result of having ignored the people who would have screwed up my > life for their childish entertainment ,I haven't had a care in the > world over money since 1987. Had I been gullible enough to allow them > to screw me up, I would have had the constant financial worries they > have , ever since. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > Hold out for your price Alex don't believe the "low ballers" > > > > There's a guy with that attitude about 2 kilometers from my place. > > > > His hull has been sitting there, in the weather, unfinished, for 10 > years so far. I think he's > > holding out for his price too. > > > > PDW > > > | 13750|13594|2007-06-21 04:09:10|sae140|6011|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Colin, et-al, > > I haven't begun welding my boat yet, but hope to start soon. > I don't yet what rod I'll use, except, I'm prety sure I'll use "stick" welding. > I think what I'll do, is pick a couple diferant alternatives, that I'm sure I can get a supply of locally, and some small pieces of the same material i'll use for the chine bar, and the hull plate, as well as, some short samples of the longetudinals, and weld them together. Then subject the samples to Brent's "big hammer" test. > It wouldn't take long, or cost much, it would be very "educational", and it would be FUN > as well as giving you added confidence in the integrity of your hull, on a stormy night. > I think I'll start with 6013, or 7014, as I used to be familiar with them. > I'll let you know what happens. > I love this site, espeacially lately, with some of these new posts. > carlvolkwein. Hi Carl - yes, please keep us posted. FUN sounds good - very easy to overlook that one ! I think your strategy makes a lot of sense: start off with what you're familar with, and which can be sourced easily. 6013's are plenty good enough for boatbuilding - that's all the pro boat-building welders around here use (and MIG of course). I think one of the 'difficulties' on this site is that we have both amateur and professional welders here, and that the pros are (not unreasonably) intolerant of anything less than '100% perfect'. Nothing wrong with perfection of course, unless it starts to get in the way of getting the job done. I think that's where some of the references to 'farmers' originates: farmers need to be 'jacks of all trades' (bit like boatbuilders and sailors) and are usually only amateur welders - but who need to weld good and strong just as soon as the rods come out of the barn. No prizes for spending a whole day practising first, especially if there are crops to get in before the weather breaks. For steel boatbuilding, especially with an over-built OrigamiBoat in the 30-36 foot range, welding doesn't need to be perfect (time to put my flame-proof suit on ...) and I'll stick my neck out and suggest that if it wasn't for the need to keep water out of the boat, then with the exception of the skeg and keel attachment points, then 50% skip-welding (say, 3" in every 6), would probably be sufficient to hold the hull together, and even in that state it would still be much stronger than an equivalent grp or wooden boat of the same size or displacement. Sure, we should always aim for perfect welds, but just in case anyone's troubled by the odd bit of slag inclusion - don't panic - it's just a boat hull, not a high-pressure pipeline, or a crane arm. I've just received some 6011's from Paul Thompson (many thanks Paul - halfway around in world in just 4 working days, including a weekend !), and feel like I've just been given a membership card to a very exclusive club. Can't wait to play with 'em on some 6" stove-pipe I have here. Might even change my mind about 6011 vs 6013, but then again ... Colin > Hi Colin, > I went to see the rods yesterday. They are 6010 not 6011. They are Bohler Thyssen Foc CEL. > Regards, Ted Thanks Ted. I'm like a kid at Xmas with a new set of toys - can't wait to burn these samples ! Colin| 13751|13725|2007-06-21 12:48:47|will jones|Re: aluminium welding|Wire size is very important for both steel and aluminum welding. Wire size determines the current you will be welding with. Unfortunately Mig machines will produce beautiful looking welds with a wire size that is too small to produce adequate penetration. For instance 0.035" wire is very popular for steel welding. I used to produce machine frames from 1/16" wall round and rectangular steel tubes and 1/8" thick hot rolled strap and angle. We got beautiful welds with 0.035" wire. We also had so many weld failures after galvanizing that we had to find another way. The only thing that solved the problem consistently was to increase the wire size to 0.045". Was the galvanizing a hot dip? This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting good penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool forms and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it back up. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13752|13662|2007-06-21 12:51:20|jnikadie|Re: mig welding|I have one of the DC only units and it works quite well. The plasma torch is a little cheap, but it's a very convenient unit ... attach work clamp to the boat, attach plasma torch and stinger and you can cut, flick a switch, weld, flick a switch, cut etc. The plasma consumables are very inexpensive too. Unfortunately it died a couple of weeks ago while trying to cut ... when I contacted the distributer I was told that the board that had melted was the most expensive one in the unit at US$145 ... add shipping to Canada and local taxes and I figure the total cost was around C$200 for the repair. Obviously it would be better if it hadn't died, but C$200 to get it working again wasn't too bad. As I was getting stuff shipped anyway I also ordered their MIG spool gun ... they say they'll be selling a kit to attach it to my welder "in a couple of months" ... I'm too impatient and am working on the necessary bits to get it hooked up myself - biggest problem so far is that the connectors shown on the web page didn't come with the gun, and they're not being too helpful about rectifying this. Note that there are now three types of units to consider ... I've got the 40A plasma, 160A DC stick/TIG unit; there's also a 50A plasma, 160A DC stick/TIG unit; and a 40A plasma, 160A AC/DC stick/TIG unit (which is, I guess, the one your mate has). From memory the TIG controls on the AC/DC one are more complete. Once I have the MIG spool gun working I won't feel the need for the AC TIG, and the plasma's 40A has been enough for everything I've needed to date. Julian. > Friend of mine has just bought one of these Chinese made 3 (or5) in 1 welder/cutters - > supposed to be a 160A AC/DC TIG, stick and 40A plasma cutter running off a 15A single > phase supply. I will be very interested in seeing how it performs as the price was a little > over $1000 AUD. | 13753|13662|2007-06-21 12:54:04|will jones|Re: mig welding|Much the same here for our certs here. 6011 is most prevalent here and this is the rod I learned to weld with. I do like flux core MIG better. I used MIG (0.035 wire) on my last sailboat trailer (36' trailer, 10K lb boat) and really like it. Went fast and flux core wire seemed pretty reasonable compared to stick. peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > If you are using a flux core wire and no shielding gas, why do you need to have calm dry conditions? You don't. I have a Readywelder spool gun loaded with flux cored and I can weld in any conditions that allow me to use my stick welder. That said I am also a fan of E6011 rods and I use them for any weld where I want an assurance the root run is full penetration. Many years ago when doing my welding ticket we had to do welds with all sorts of rods then section and polish the welds to see the penetration. The 6010/6011 rods were the ONLY rods that gave a 100% penetration on a horizontal/vertical fillet where you couldn't get at the other side (a T weld for example). Flux cored wire isn't all that cheap and it's smoky & dirty. I can't see any huge gain over stick welding for the most part. Probably use mine for butt welds on plate to minimise the HAZ. PDW Wet and windy or even high humidity and improperly stored rods (ie not in a rod box or oven) have caused me more problems than flux core mig wire any day. > > brentswain38 wrote: Eduardo > I found stick a lot easier in windy and rainy conditions.It's alot > cheaper for the equipment too. You need to wait for extremely calm, > dry conditions for wire feed welding outside . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, Dan, > > You are long time boat builders. > > may you tell me of your experience with mig welding, in and outdoors. > > gas and flush. > > It seems to me that you don´t favour it, may i know why? > > thank you > > eduardo > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13754|13712|2007-06-24 06:51:34|Alex Christie|Re: Alex's hull|I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), stood back and realized that I have never seen any other steel boats out there that are simply fair by nature, the way these types are. You could stand at pretty much any angle and look along the hull and it is just like a long flexible batten has been sprung into a sweet curve (except, as Brent mentioned, a small amount of print-through where the anchor-well was welded too much). She's beautiful, and feeling every bit of her surface as I painted her made me feel all the better about her, and a renewed kinship which makes selling her all the more difficult considering how much sweat, money, time and occasional blood into her. There is nothing like this kind of boat that I know of in my experience. Makes one think. Also makes me not want to sell her, tho at this point I have little choice. I would like to work with a new owner to complete my second film, too, because this instructional film series needs to be finished for posterity and the common good. It might happen. I just hope someone in turn has on offer a boat like this if it comes to a time where I can afford to advance on a boatbuilding project again. Most of what is out there are "hungry-dog" boats with frame welds printing through the hull skin, as ugly as can be and in need of heartbreaking amounts of filler to even begin to look as good as my hull does without any at all. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13755|13720|2007-06-24 06:51:41|brentswain38|Re: Mast ventilators|When sealed ,the bouyancy in a mast is usually equal to it's weight ,when submerged . Thus an intact mast offers a huge righting advantage in a rollover. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Two 'gotcha's' to look out for. First, its amazing how much water > finds its way into a hollow mast, whether by condensation, or rain, or > morning dew, or fog etc, therefore, some way to drain this out needs > to be designed in. Second, make sure the step you put your mast on is > lower than the top of your vent to the inside of the cabin for the > same reason, to keep water out of the boat. Some kind of a raised pipe > within a pipe might work, with the cap closing down on the inner one, > with your drain opening the area between the inner and outer. > > CAVEAT :) > I've not done this myself so i'm 'opining' here but I do have > experience at getting a lot of water into a boat :) heheheh > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Hollow masts, as the sun warms them causing the air inside to rise, > > would make excellent ventilators if connected into the cabin top at > > their base and fitted with a spring closing valve at the top that can > > be closed in a sea-way. Any views on this? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 13756|13412|2007-06-24 06:51:52|brentswain38|Re: transverse web on single keel?|I'm leaning toward putting the aft winch support pipes on the cabintop cabinfont corner , for it's added stiffness. It also makes it harder for the sheet to foul it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The plate is unlikely to pull forward. The back end of the windlass will > try and pull up, the front end push down, with a lever arm created by the > height of the drum. Shear is 60k, yield is 30k, max SWL 15k PSI. > > Multiply the circumference of the feet/washers under, times the thickness of > the metal, to come up with square inches. Multiply the breaking strength of > the chain by the ratio of the lever arm, to get pounds. Divide pounds by > square inches, if you are over 15K anywhere, you should probably add > something. > > Likely a stringer under to minimize flexing, and some good sized washers to > spread the load are all you need. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on single keel? > > > > What's the breaking strength of your anchor rode. That is the max you > can put on your winch. At 60,000 psi I dont think your rode will > match the strength of the steel around the winch feet. Easy to > calculate it tho. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > i've got another question, > > my anchor winch is mounted in the way that Brent's is > > welded to the forward part of the cabin. i am > > wondering if i have a really heavy pull if it will > > pull the eighth inch cabin plate forward. thinking of > > reinforcing it from the inside. is this necessary? > > Aaron > > --- Tom wrote: > > > > > Hello Aaron > > > Got pictures? > > > From what Brent mentioned if you build in tankage in > > > the single keel up to > > > floor level you dont need any cross braces the tank > > > tops, ends, and baffles > > > are plenty, without, it needs a couple braces, mine > > > is probably a tad > > > overkill 3"x 1/4" flat strip on edge. > > > The single keel setup is plenty strong, when i had > > > mine on the hoist I set > > > it down on the keel to see if there was any movment > > > or flex and I can say > > > its rock solid. > > > Did or are you going to weld in chine doublers? > > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "aaron riis" > > > To: > yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:41 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: transverse web on > > > single keel? > > > > > > > > > > Im finnishing off the last few details of > > > steelwork on > > > > my '26. I have run a flat bar from the front of > > > the > > > > keel to either chine and at the rear of the keel I > > > > have used angle irons for the engine beds which > > > also > > > > spread out the keel load. I understand that > > > single > > > > keels are inherently stronger than twin keels > > > using > > > > the strength of the centreline. Im considering > > > > running a inch angle iron from the bulkhead within > > > the > > > > keel to either chine. Im looking for absolute > > > peace > > > > of mind. I saw that Tom ran 3 either side of his, > > > > there wasn't any details in the plans for the > > > single > > > > keel. > > > > > > > > Aaron > > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > >> Exellent way to go. I've often seen crap boats > > > with > > > >> excellent gear > > > >> sell for less than the price of the gear on them, > > > >> often a fraction the > > > >> price of the gear on them. In the early 70s some > > > >> people bought the > > > >> fishboat buyback boats and salvaged a fortune in > > > >> usable gear off them. > > > >> The boats often sold for around $1500. > > > >> Brent > > > >> > > > >> --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > Buy something like this on ebay: > > > >> > > > > >> > 1970 55' Sailboat 2 Furling systems 3 Diesels > > > >> > Current bid: US $18,100.00 > > > >> > > > > >> > Strip the boat to build 1 or 2 origami boats > > > >> (ketch rig), convert > > > >> the ferro > > > >> > hull to a workshop/liveaboard, sell any surplus > > > >> back on ebay. There are > > > >> > lots of other boats listed regularly on ebay > > > that > > > >> would make good parts > > > >> > boats. > > > >> > > > > >> > Even if you spent months or years shopping for > > > >> deals, you would be hard > > > >> > pressed to buy all the parts to outfit a boat > > > for > > > >> what you can buy > > > >> them for > > > >> > in a "parts" boat. The advantage of the > > > "parts" > > > >> boat is that the > > > >> parts are > > > >> > all in one place, the boat provide a means to > > > >> transport and store > > > >> the parts, > > > >> > and a workshop/living quarters to use while > > > >> outfitting the new boat. > > > >> > > > > >> > A 55 foot ferro hull with a wooden box on top > > > can > > > >> make a pretty cozy > > > >> > apartment/liveaboard. The added weight of the > > > box > > > >> on top offsets the > > > >> > ballast in the keel, giving a comfortable > > > motion > > > >> with the sticks > > > >> removed. > > > >> > As a liveaboard sitting at a dock, the ferro > > > hull > > > >> is not typically > > > >> an issue. > > > >> > If anything, the weight of the hull is an asset > > > >> for a liveaboard. > > > >> > > > > >> > With a "parts" boat in hand, move aboard and > > > start > > > >> putting the rent > > > >> in your > > > >> > pocket. Start shopping around for a hull (or > > > two) > > > >> like Alex's. > > > >> Most of the > > > >> > work has been done, and the price is typically > > > >> going to be less than the > > > >> > cost of materials to build one yourself. Fit > > > out > > > >> the hull(s) with > > > >> the parts > > > >> > stripped from the parts boats, and you will > > > have > > > >> an offshore cruiser for > > > >> > yourself, possibly a second one you can sell > > > for a > > > >> cruising kitty, and a > > > >> > liveaboard 55' foot ferro hull liveaboard that > > > you > > > >> can also sell or > > > >> rent out > > > >> > to give you an income while offshore. > > > >> > > > > >> > Greg > > > >> > > > > >> > ________________________________ > > > >> > > > > >> > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > >> [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > >> > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:20 AM > > > >> > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh, NO! not corten > > > >> again.... > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Gary H. I completely agree with you. Our rec > > > room > > > >> was full of marine > > > >> > gear for a couple of years. I probably spent > > > >> $30,000 before the hull > > > >> > was started. > > > >> > It's hard to collect the gear u need when u > > > need > > > >> it and u end up > > > >> > paying ridiculus retail prices if u don't plan > > > >> ahead. I remember > > > >> > sitting at the kitchen table with my first > > > >> purchase, a box of > > > >> > SS/Bronze turnbuckles and my wife thinking I > > > was > > > >> nuts cause there > > > >> > was no boat. Our house filled up with tanks, > > > >> fenders, stoves, > > > >> > winches etc until I finally built a shed to > > > hold > > > >> it all. But there's > > > >> > a boat now and I paid peanuts for stuff > > > compared > > > >> to what I would pay > > > >> > now. And if you change your mind or your wife > > > >> takes away your > > > >> > allownace you can sell it all. Gary H. is > > > right. > > > >> You can Ebay it > > > >> > all. If u paid swap meet prices you can make a > > > >> profit. > > > >> > I've always thought that once in your mind u're > > > >> committed to the > > > >> > project buy the deals as they come along. > > > >> > Even a sparten boat needs an engine, trans, > > > line, > > > >> chain, heater, > > > >> > stove, head, conrols, rolls of wire, fittings > > > etc > > > >> etc. > > > >> > > > > >> > Those of u sitting on the fence, why not get > > > >> together on Vancouver > > > >> > Island with Brent. Work out a deal with him to > > > >> build a number of > > > >> > hulls at the same time with him supervising the > > > >> builds and > > > >> > correcting mistakes. Make a deal for a number > > > of > > > >> engines from a > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > http://searchmarket ing.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13757|13725|2007-06-24 06:52:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium welding|Will, Yes the galvanizing was hot dip. I get the same response every time I bring up this subject, always from experienced welders. I would even agree with you. However here is the rub. The welds we are talking about LOOK just as nice as you could want. Every single time I have allowed the welding to be done with 0.035" welding wire SOME of the welds fail! In other words you could not detect a bad weld by looking at, but you could by destructively testing it. I am not talking about my welders. I am talking about my welders and outside contractors. In the cases where we were talking thousands of parts that hang machinery overhead ,if one part fails I have to suspect the whole lot. This is an amateur group. I am giving advice that will keep an amateur out of trouble. The downside to my advice is what? Everybody will look at you funny because you are a sissy using 0.045" wire? You'll have to learn to weld faster and finish your boat a little sooner? You may get less distortion because the total heat input will be less? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: > Was the galvanizing a hot dip? > > This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than > improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will > throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your > welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or > bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence > current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to > just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this > situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting good > penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One > should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool forms > and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to > develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds > and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have > them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about > MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and > penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. > Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you > get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a > pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool > responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it > back up. > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13758|13662|2007-06-24 06:52:28|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > I have one of the DC only units and it works quite well. The plasma > torch is a little cheap, but it's a very convenient unit ... attach > work clamp to the boat, attach plasma torch and stinger and you can > cut, flick a switch, weld, flick a switch, cut etc. > > The plasma consumables are very inexpensive too. > > Unfortunately it died a couple of weeks ago while trying to cut ... > when I contacted the distributer I was told that the board that had > melted was the most expensive one in the unit at US$145 ... add > shipping to Canada and local taxes and I figure the total cost was > around C$200 for the repair. Obviously it would be better if it hadn't > died, but C$200 to get it working again wasn't too bad. > > As I was getting stuff shipped anyway I also ordered their MIG spool > gun ... they say they'll be selling a kit to attach it to my welder > "in a couple of months" ... I'm too impatient and am working on the > necessary bits to get it hooked up myself - biggest problem so far is > that the connectors shown on the web page didn't come with the gun, > and they're not being too helpful about rectifying this. > > Note that there are now three types of units to consider ... I've got > the 40A plasma, 160A DC stick/TIG unit; there's also a 50A plasma, > 160A DC stick/TIG unit; and a 40A plasma, 160A AC/DC stick/TIG unit > (which is, I guess, the one your mate has). Yes that's the one, it should arrive next week. He's going to loan it to me to play with. Good to know that the 40A plasma cutter has been adequate; I expect for my use if it cuts 4mm plate very cleanly and 12mm plate adequately that'll cover the full range of my needs. Anything over 12mm I can use o-a for anyway if I don't want to borrow the big plasma cutter from work. How much air do you use for the plasma cutter? We've been wondering if our cheapo small compressors will keep up. > Once I have the MIG spool gun working I won't feel the need for the AC > TIG, and the plasma's 40A has been enough for everything I've needed > to date. AC TIG isn't much use IMO unless you've got HF so you can weld aluminium. I've used a scratch start TIG handpiece for years off of a DC stick welder but can't get below about 30A which means far too much heat for thin stuff. The unit my friend is getting goes down to 7A I think. Of course 160A isn't really enough for much in aluminium but should be just adequate for 5mm plate and fine for 3mm, which is all he wants. PDW| 13759|13725|2007-06-24 06:52:44|T & D Cain|Re: aluminium welding|An interesting post from Will which seems to perpetuate the theme of .035" not as good as .0.045" . Unfortunately, radiographic examination of welds done under controlled conditions does not support this theme. In fact, the reverse is true. Current density in the weld pool is a major determinant of the depth of weld influence and this is clearly in favour of smaller wires given the joint design and current chosen. Whatever caused the problems with Will's product, it was unlikely to be the wire size alone. There is no argument with the fact that things got better with the change. The reason for the variation is not clear. Look at all of the factors in the "then and now" scenario, it would likely show the real reason for the reject rate .was not limited to wire size or weld current. If the industry standard design of weld preps. was in force at the time, and the operators were properly trained, one of the remaining significant operating parameters is the ratio of preset OC voltage (heat) to wire speed (current). I agree with Valhalla's comments. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of will jones Sent: Friday, 22 June 2007 12:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13760|13662|2007-06-24 06:53:04|Carl Anderson|wrapping it up soon|If anyone is interested in getting some tools for boat construction I will be selling off some of the items I have been using for the metal work on my boat. Please contact me regarding this if interested. Carl| 13761|13662|2007-06-24 06:53:09|Carl Anderson|wrapping it up soon - tool list & location|Sorry I forgot to put up a list & location. Here is a list of the items: Oxy-Propane cutting torch w/50' of hose & regulators (available now) Lincoln 225 AC/DC stick welder w/50' cable & custom electrode holder 1/2" - 2" 10 ton pipe bender collection of "C" clamps & pipe clamps I'm located near Nanaimo on Vancouver Island. I will be done with these tools in July. Please contact me regarding this if interested. Carl| 13762|13720|2007-06-24 14:47:55|edward_stoneuk|Re: Mast ventilators|Brent, Seer, I was thinking of a spring closing valve/cover at the top that is opened by a rope and snaps shut when the rope is released. It could be closed during inclement weather. There could be a blowing over a beer bottle noise effect though that could mask any irritating tapping halyards or whirring wind generator noises. Regards, Ted| 13763|13712|2007-06-24 14:49:13|seeratlas|Re: Alex's hull|Alex, I totally agree. I'd seen the pictures of various hulls on this site and in Brent's book, before I'd gone up to take a look at Gord's 40, but I was simply shocked by the fairness of the curves in his boat (and thoroughly impressed by the quality of his welds LOL). Expecting a fairly commercial 'boxy' look, I was simply amazed, and I wasn't alone. My young lady companion took some convincing to finally accept that the boat had in fact been home built. BTW, anyone who hasn't checked out the photos on this site of Gord's home made Dorades, from stainless kitchenware..should. Looked professional and commercial as hell LOL. Some have criticized Brent's boats as less than attractive, they are dead wrong. With all the stainless Gord has in all the right places on his boat, the elegant simplicity and yet purposeful design, the graceful and functional sheer, and hopefully a nice paint job when he gets finished, :) I, for one, would not be embarassed to sail that ship into any yacht club in the world. Some of the 'condo on the water' crowd, might sniff a bit at the lack of brightwork or a teak deck LOL, but if I'm any judge, the true 'sailors' amongst them will be lined up along the dock, ready to clamber over the rails at a moment's notice to get a closer look at what is obviously a true blue water ship. As Gord mentioned to me, that Brent worked all this out with a slide ruler and measuring tape, is beyond remarkable. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), stood back and realized that I have never seen any other steel boats out there that are simply fair by nature, the way these types are. You could stand at pretty much any angle and look along the hull and it is just like a long flexible batten has been sprung into a sweet curve (except, as Brent mentioned, a small amount of print-through where the anchor-well was welded too much). She's beautiful, and feeling every bit of her surface as I painted her made me feel all the better about her, and a renewed kinship which makes selling her all the more difficult considering how much sweat, money, time and occasional blood into her. There is nothing like this kind of boat that I know of in my experience. Makes one think. Also makes me not want to sell her, tho at this point I have little choice. I would like to work with a new owner to complete my second film, too, because this instructional film series needs to be finished for posterity and the common good. It might happen. > > I just hope someone in turn has on offer a boat like this if it comes to a time where I can afford to advance on a boatbuilding project again. Most of what is out there are "hungry-dog" boats with frame welds printing through the hull skin, as ugly as can be and in need of heartbreaking amounts of filler to even begin to look as good as my hull does without any at all. > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13764|13725|2007-06-24 14:49:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: aluminium welding|We found Gary's observations to hold for alloy as well, and we did the destructive testing to confirm them. You can slow things down by using thinner wire, the welds look pretty, but you get tons more failures. We found that speed is a problem for welders. Things move so fast that hand to eye coordination becomes an issue. The first thing they want to do is use thinner wire, turn down the voltage, turn down the wire speed, slow things down. The result is weak welds. You can make very pretty looking welds by slowing things down, but at a cost. We certainly found in alloy, HOT and FAST means strong. Slow and cold means weak. If I see ridges on the surface of an alloy MIG weld, I suspect the weld. I want to see a smooth surface, where the weld was too hot to form ridges. If the margins are fused on both sides, and the surface was properly prepared beforehand, this is likely a strong weld. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding Will, Yes the galvanizing was hot dip. I get the same response every time I bring up this subject, always from experienced welders. I would even agree with you. However here is the rub. The welds we are talking about LOOK just as nice as you could want. Every single time I have allowed the welding to be done with 0.035" welding wire SOME of the welds fail! In other words you could not detect a bad weld by looking at, but you could by destructively testing it. I am not talking about my welders. I am talking about my welders and outside contractors. In the cases where we were talking thousands of parts that hang machinery overhead ,if one part fails I have to suspect the whole lot. This is an amateur group. I am giving advice that will keep an amateur out of trouble. The downside to my advice is what? Everybody will look at you funny because you are a sissy using 0.045" wire? You'll have to learn to weld faster and finish your boat a little sooner? You may get less distortion because the total heat input will be less? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" yahoo.com> To: yahoogroups.com> > Was the galvanizing a hot dip? > > This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than > improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will > throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your > welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or > bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence > current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to > just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this > situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting good > penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One > should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool forms > and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to > develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds > and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have > them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about > MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and > penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. > Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you > get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a > pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool > responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it > back up. > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13765|13765|2007-06-24 18:01:05|edward_stoneuk|Sewage Holding Tank|I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? Regards, Ted| 13766|13712|2007-06-24 23:38:14|peter_d_wiley|Re: Alex's hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), stood back and realized that I have never seen any other steel boats out there that are simply fair by nature, the way these types are. Looking real good, Alex. I noticed the change of photo a couple days ago. Round here we call the over-welded & distorted hulls 'hungry horse' boats. PDW| 13767|13765|2007-06-24 23:38:45|Wesley Cox|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I don't know about the smell, but polypropylene is much more resistant to caustic chemicals than polyethylene. HDPE, I suspect, would become brittle with time exposure to sewage. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 4:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sewage Holding Tank I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? Regards, Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13768|13725|2007-06-24 23:39:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium welding|Terry, I was the one who said use 0.045" welding wire. Again everything you say is true. This reminds me of the engineer across the hall. His drawings are always drawn to high technical standards, and he insists they MUST be done this way. Yet job after job his drawings go out to venders and come back with fabrication errors. Now one could argue that the vendors are not very smart, or careful, and of course again you would be right. However, my drawings which he keeps insisting are wrong come back from fabrication time after time with few errors. When they do contain errors I don't berate the vendor, I go over the drawings with the vendor to figure out what I can do to keep it from happening again. By the way, I am now in charge of reviewing all drawings going to our shop and to vendors. I will be forcing him to make drawings that are wrong! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & D Cain" To: Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > An interesting post from Will which seems to perpetuate the theme of > .035" > not as good as .0.045" . > > Unfortunately, radiographic examination of welds done under controlled > conditions does not support this theme. > > In fact, the reverse is true. > > Current density in the weld pool is a major determinant of the depth of > weld > influence and this is clearly in favour of smaller wires given the joint > design and current chosen. > > Whatever caused the problems with Will's product, it was unlikely to be > the > wire size alone. > > > > There is no argument with the fact that things got better with the change. > The reason for the variation is not clear. > > > > Look at all of the factors in the "then and now" scenario, it would > likely > show the real reason for the reject rate .was not limited to wire size or > weld current. If the industry standard design of weld preps. was in force > at > the time, and the operators were properly trained, one of the remaining > significant operating parameters is the ratio of preset OC voltage (heat) > to > wire speed (current). > > I agree with Valhalla's comments. > > > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of will jones > Sent: Friday, 22 June 2007 12:43 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13769|13769|2007-06-24 23:39:31|seeratlas|What Happened to the AMazing Grace photos?|Have had several inquiries regarding my reference to Gord's Amazing Grace 40 footer and now I can't find the photos that I was referencing. Did they get pulled down? seer| 13770|13765|2007-06-24 23:40:01|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Ted, I work in the wastewater industry. In February we served lunch in a waste treatment plant that we built. 15,000 gallons of raw sewage in poly tanks about 15 from the tables. Everyone remarked that this might be the first time anyone served lunch in a wastewater plant! I wouldn't worry too much about it. Take a look at the tanks from Den Hartog. If they have a size that would work they have the best prices. Bailiff Industries is also very good and has some interesting rectangular tanks. I just bought one 24 x 24 x 36 and 85 gallons for about $150. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 5:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sewage Holding Tank I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? Regards, Ted | 13771|13712|2007-06-24 23:40:26|sly_grog|Re: Alex's hull|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), > Alex I compliment you Alex on agood looking job. Now my question is how do I obtain a copy of your video. I live in Australia. regards ric| 13772|13662|2007-06-25 03:25:22|jnikadie|Re: mig welding|> Yes that's the one, it should arrive next week. He's going to loan it to me to play with. > Good to know that the 40A plasma cutter has been adequate; I expect for my use if it cuts > 4mm plate very cleanly and 12mm plate adequately that'll cover the full range of my > needs. Anything over 12mm I can use o-a for anyway if I don't want to borrow the big > plasma cutter from work. It cuts 1/2" really well actually ... when I showed Jim (retired welder who owns the property my boat is on) he said his dedicated plasma cutter (which cost a lot more) didn't cut 1/2" as well as the sample. I have cut 3/4", just to try it out ... not clean and VERY slow ... but nice to have "just in case". > > How much air do you use for the plasma cutter? We've been wondering if our cheapo small > compressors will keep up. I find my direct-drive $120 compressor works just fine (4cfm, I think) ... on a long cut the compressor goes on and off as needed (if it wasn't keeping up it would stay on until all of the air was depleted). > AC TIG isn't much use IMO unless you've got HF so you can weld aluminium. I've used a > scratch start TIG handpiece for years off of a DC stick welder but can't get below about > 30A which means far too much heat for thin stuff. The unit my friend is getting goes down > to 7A I think. Of course 160A isn't really enough for much in aluminium but should be just > adequate for 5mm plate and fine for 3mm, which is all he wants. My unit (not sure if the AC is the same) is high-freq, but DC TIG is only used for thick Aluminium ... and it doesn't have the current capacity for that. The 1/8" or 3/16" aluminium for the hatches etc was what I had in mind ... 160A should just about be enough for that once I have the MIG gun on it.| 13773|13765|2007-06-25 03:26:42|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I don't know for sure but the chemicals often used to kill the smell in camper and boat holding tanks are prity caustic and that may be the reason to use polypropylene rather then HDPE. In a system with no chemicals added it wouldn't make any differance but if you decided to add chemicals later it might become a problem long term. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I don't know about the smell, but polypropylene is much more resistant to caustic chemicals than polyethylene. HDPE, I suspect, would become brittle with time exposure to sewage. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 4:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sewage Holding Tank > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13774|13769|2007-06-25 03:26:45|Gordo|Re: What Happened to the AMazing Grace photos?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Seer Thanks for your interest! I had Alex pull them down some time ago. The photos were "out of date", (been there tooo long). My intention was, to post a new set that reflects the current "state of the project", and at the same time, release my website, which is a set of PowerPoints (with commentary), that track the build process. Just haven't got to it. Currently "in the throws" of painting and fire-proofing the Class A polyurethane foam insulation. It's always a choice: 1. Build the boat and go sailing or 2. Work on the photos and website. #1 generally wins. Gord > Have had several inquiries regarding my reference to Gord's Amazing > Grace 40 footer and now I can't find the photos that I was > referencing. Did they get pulled down? > > seer > | 13775|13765|2007-06-25 03:27:43|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Do you have a link you can post. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Ted, > I work in the wastewater industry. In February we served lunch in a waste > treatment plant that we built. 15,000 gallons of raw sewage in poly tanks > about 15 from the tables. Everyone remarked that this might be the first > time anyone served lunch in a wastewater plant! I wouldn't worry too much > about it. > > Take a look at the tanks from Den Hartog. If they have a size that would > work they have the best prices. Bailiff Industries is also very good and > has some interesting rectangular tanks. I just bought one 24 x 24 x 36 and > 85 gallons for about $150. > > Gary H. Lucas | 13776|13776|2007-06-25 07:07:25|charlesbugeja|Small sailboat in steel|I was wandering if anyone has ever built a small light sailboat about 20'in steel? I would like to know if any one has a set of blue print's for a cruiser about that size? I sure would like to try building one that can be trailered and that maybe could make a safe passage from Florida to the Bahamas.Any ideas from any one out there would be greatly appriciated.I'll be looking forward to some E-Mail with some fresh ideas. Thanks Charles.| 13777|13776|2007-06-25 17:52:03|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Small sailboat in steel|Charles, You can buy plans for the Atkins designed Liza Jane from Atkin Boat Plans in Connecticut. It is a 19 footer, framelesss, in steel. I have plans for it; If I recall the plans are about $50. I don't know if any have been built. Cheers Paul > I was wandering if anyone has ever built a small light sailboat about > 20'in steel? I would like to know if any one has a set of blue print's > for a cruiser about that size? I sure would like to try building one > that can be trailered and that maybe could make a safe passage from > Florida to the Bahamas.Any ideas from any one out there would be > greatly appriciated.I'll be looking forward to some E-Mail with some > fresh ideas. > Thanks Charles. > > | 13778|13778|2007-06-25 17:52:18|Alex Christie|Re: DVD ordering|Hello Ric, To get a copy of the DVD set Origamiboats; The Art of Steel Boatbuilding, you can use a credit card and send to my PayPal at achristie@... by going to www.paypal.com (I can also invoice you from my paypal at your request, then just follow the instructions in the invoice as it is fairly simple), or send a cheque or money order in US funds to: Alex Christie Site 5, Comp 3A Fanny Bay, BC Canada V0R-1W0 ----- Original Message ----- From: sly_grog To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Alex's hull --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), > Alex I compliment you Alex on agood looking job. Now my question is how do I obtain a copy of your video. I live in Australia. regards ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 24/06/2007 8:33 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13779|13776|2007-06-25 17:53:14|charlesbugeja|Re: Small sailboat in steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "charlesbugeja" wrote: > > I was wandering if anyone has ever built a small light sailboat about > 20'in steel? I would like to know if any one has a set of blue print's > for a cruiser about that size? I sure would like to try building one > that can be trailered and that maybe could make a safe passage from > Florida to the Bahamas.Any ideas from any one out there would be > greatly appriciated.I'll be looking forward to some E-Mail with some > fresh ideas. > Thanks Charles. > | 13780|13725|2007-06-25 17:53:15|will jones|Re: aluminium welding|This is a good and lively discussion and please let me know if am going on too much. My intent is to contribute to the discussion and that some folks take away that welding is easy and fun and that by applying the basics you can weld most anything metal. I know I have saved a lot of the aluminum welding discussion to try out some day. Nope you are absolutely correct on both accounts, the combination of too thin wire, too slow of speed and lower voltage will cause oriented crystalization resulting in brittle metal to weld interface for steels. The metal doesn't get hot enough to properly mix with the alloy. But again, there will be several indicators that you are not getting a good weld. These are things that are really worth the money and time to learn and practice ge@... wrote: We found Gary's observations to hold for alloy as well, and we did the destructive testing to confirm them. You can slow things down by using thinner wire, the welds look pretty, but you get tons more failures. We found that speed is a problem for welders. Things move so fast that hand to eye coordination becomes an issue. The first thing they want to do is use thinner wire, turn down the voltage, turn down the wire speed, slow things down. The result is weak welds. You can make very pretty looking welds by slowing things down, but at a cost. We certainly found in alloy, HOT and FAST means strong. Slow and cold means weak. If I see ridges on the surface of an alloy MIG weld, I suspect the weld. I want to see a smooth surface, where the weld was too hot to form ridges. If the margins are fused on both sides, and the surface was properly prepared beforehand, this is likely a strong weld. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding Will, Yes the galvanizing was hot dip. I get the same response every time I bring up this subject, always from experienced welders. I would even agree with you. However here is the rub. The welds we are talking about LOOK just as nice as you could want. Every single time I have allowed the welding to be done with 0.035" welding wire SOME of the welds fail! In other words you could not detect a bad weld by looking at, but you could by destructively testing it. I am not talking about my welders. I am talking about my welders and outside contractors. In the cases where we were talking thousands of parts that hang machinery overhead ,if one part fails I have to suspect the whole lot. This is an amateur group. I am giving advice that will keep an amateur out of trouble. The downside to my advice is what? Everybody will look at you funny because you are a sissy using 0.045" wire? You'll have to learn to weld faster and finish your boat a little sooner? You may get less distortion because the total heat input will be less? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" yahoo.com> To: yahoogroups.com> > Was the galvanizing a hot dip? > > This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than > improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will > throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your > welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or > bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence > current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to > just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this > situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting good > penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One > should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool forms > and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to > develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds > and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have > them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about > MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and > penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. > Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you > get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a > pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool > responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it > back up. > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13781|13725|2007-06-25 17:56:23|will jones|Re: aluminium welding|Not a sissy really, but bumping up to 0.045 can create a whole different set of problems, expecially when just slowing down will cure most a lot of them. Yes, I asked about hot dip since parts go through sulfuric pickle around 121C (250F) cold water bath then 450 then into a 454C (850F) hot dip and then a cold water bath. Maybe the welds were not the problem. I cut my teeth in a materials engineering lab for Westinghouse and we did a hell of a lot of galvanizing as well as plating, resins, coatings, painting, ceramics, etc... Failure analysis was half or more of our job. "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: Will, Yes the galvanizing was hot dip. I get the same response every time I bring up this subject, always from experienced welders. I would even agree with you. However here is the rub. The welds we are talking about LOOK just as nice as you could want. Every single time I have allowed the welding to be done with 0.035" welding wire SOME of the welds fail! In other words you could not detect a bad weld by looking at, but you could by destructively testing it. I am not talking about my welders. I am talking about my welders and outside contractors. In the cases where we were talking thousands of parts that hang machinery overhead ,if one part fails I have to suspect the whole lot. This is an amateur group. I am giving advice that will keep an amateur out of trouble. The downside to my advice is what? Everybody will look at you funny because you are a sissy using 0.045" wire? You'll have to learn to weld faster and finish your boat a little sooner? You may get less distortion because the total heat input will be less? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: > Was the galvanizing a hot dip? > > This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than > improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will > throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your > welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or > bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence > current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to > just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this > situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting good > penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One > should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool forms > and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to > develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds > and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have > them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about > MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and > penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. > Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you > get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a > pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool > responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it > back up. > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13782|13782|2007-06-25 19:36:10|Alex|wire welding|I am enjoying all this animated mig talk, I'm all ears. I have been pondering for a long time building a small micro-cruiser daysailer boat using origami, but probably in such a small size (19 to 23 feet), trailerable, that maybe aluminum is the ticket, so it looks like Mig welding would be kind of necessary. A small craft with bilge stubbies plus a dagger or centreboard for deeper water, to get the best of all possible worlds. I am not sure if steel should be ruled out though, maybe if it was done carefully 1/8" steel would suffice. I would put in a lot of portlights topsides to chop out much steel, that's for sure, and perhaps make the pilot house welded aluminum bolted onto a flange. Has anyone pondered such a project? Alex| 13783|13782|2007-06-25 21:06:16|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: wire welding|One idea I've been looking at is a chine-less origami hull. 19+ feet, that can be folded out of a single 20 foot piece of alloy. Similarly, the cockpit and house could be folded with an absolute minimum of welding. Use straight runs everywhere. The hull would look sort of like an open 60. straight runs aft with a beamy open stern. twin rudders for balance. 10hp outboard between the rudders. small day cabin that converts to a berth, with 2 quarter berths under the cockpit. sleep 2+2 inside, 2 more outside. 5-6 knots upwind, 10-15 knots board up off the wind and under power. trailerable. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] wire welding I am enjoying all this animated mig talk, I'm all ears. I have been pondering for a long time building a small micro-cruiser daysailer boat using origami, but probably in such a small size (19 to 23 feet), trailerable, that maybe aluminum is the ticket, so it looks like Mig welding would be kind of necessary. A small craft with bilge stubbies plus a dagger or centreboard for deeper water, to get the best of all possible worlds. I am not sure if steel should be ruled out though, maybe if it was done carefully 1/8" steel would suffice. I would put in a lot of portlights topsides to chop out much steel, that's for sure, and perhaps make the pilot house welded aluminum bolted onto a flange. Has anyone pondered such a project? Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13784|13662|2007-06-25 23:44:36|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > Good to know that the 40A plasma cutter has been adequate; I expect > for my use if it cuts > > 4mm plate very cleanly and 12mm plate adequately that'll cover the > full range of my > > needs. Anything over 12mm I can use o-a for anyway if I don't want > to borrow the big > > plasma cutter from work. > > It cuts 1/2" really well actually ... when I showed Jim (retired > welder who owns the property my boat is on) he said his dedicated > plasma cutter (which cost a lot more) didn't cut 1/2" as well as the > sample. > > I have cut 3/4", just to try it out ... not clean and VERY slow ... > but nice to have "just in case". OK, that's heaps of capacity. I've got a 3 phase Hypertherm at work and while it's a lovely unit, so was the price. For the supplier. > > How much air do you use for the plasma cutter? We've been wondering > if our cheapo small > > compressors will keep up. > > I find my direct-drive $120 compressor works just fine (4cfm, I think) > ... on a long cut the compressor goes on and off as needed (if it > wasn't keeping up it would stay on until all of the air was depleted). Cool. My compressor won't run a die grinder at full revs so I was a bit concerned. Bought it to drive nail guns and it's fine for that. Sounds like it'll be adequate for the plasma cutter. We've taken SCUBA cylinders out into the field with a reg & fittings to deliver 110psi air and that was my alternative to buying a bigger compressor but better if I don't need to. PDW| 13785|13785|2007-06-25 23:44:45|charlesbugeja|20' steel cruiser|Thanks Paul. I did look at Atkin Boat Plans and I did find Liza Jane.There is not a lot of info on that old design and from the thickness of the steel that they want you to use"12 gauge" all around plus about 1200lbs of ballast sure will make that boat very heavy.I was hoping that I could use 16gauge at the hull and18 gauge for the top.I sure do like the way they build the origamiboats, that's so simple and fast.Well I am sure that I will get more feed back on the subject.I still like to have a swinging keel that slides in the bottom keel and also two more keels on the side so she can sit flat on my 20' car hauler trailer that I just bought new, plus she could sit upright when the tide goes out,and you don't need a dingy to shore since she should not draw a lot of water.| 13786|13786|2007-06-25 23:45:10|dbourg2002|September Visit|My wife and I are going sailing in September from Vancouver Island on a charter and would like to know where the best places to see completed and in construction origami sailboats. We are interested in the BS 36' and 40' with the extremely long term view (8-10 yrs) to eventual construction. We will be on the island from around September 7-18. My wifes parents live around Mill Bay so boats around the vicinity would be convenient for us to visit but we could also stop after the charter which is based in Comox. If you have any suggestions or if it would be ok to see your boat/project it would be appreciated if you let us know. This is a long term dream for us as we are based on the prairies and still learning about keelboat sailing. Don & Rina| 13787|13769|2007-06-25 23:45:29|Gordo|Re: What Happened to the AMazing Grace photos?|Seer Thanks for your interest! I had Alex pull them down some time ago. The photos were "out of date", (been there tooo long). My intention was, to post a new set that reflects the current "state of the project", and at the same time, release my website, which is a set of PowerPoints (with commentary), that track the build process. Just haven't got to it. Currently "in the throws" of painting and fire-proofing the Class A polyurethane foam insulation. It's always a choice: 1. Build the boat and go sailing or 2. Work on the photos and website. #1 generally wins. Gord > Have had several inquiries regarding my reference to Gord's Amazing > Grace 40 footer and now I can't find the photos that I was > referencing. Did they get pulled down? > > seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Have had several inquiries regarding my reference to Gord's Amazing > Grace 40 footer and now I can't find the photos that I was > referencing. Did they get pulled down? > > seer > | 13788|13785|2007-06-26 22:47:34|Paul Wilson|Re: 20' steel cruiser|I am probably opening a huge can of worms but I can't see how steel could be justified for such a small boat. It is too heavy by the time you get a plate that is thick enough to work with. Aluminum may be ok but in my opinion it would be hard to beat plywood for a trailerable boat. Plywood boats are lightweight, strong, quickly and easily constructed, and also possible to construct using origami or stitch and glue techniques. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: charlesbugeja To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:24:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 20' steel cruiser Thanks Paul. I did look at Atkin Boat Plans and I did find Liza Jane.There is not a lot of info on that old design and from the thickness of the steel that they want you to use"12 gauge" all around plus about 1200lbs of ballast sure will make that boat very heavy.I was hoping that I could use 16gauge at the hull and18 gauge for the top.I sure do like the way they build the origamiboats, that's so simple and fast.Well I am sure that I will get more feed back on the subject.I still like to have a swinging keel that slides in the bottom keel and also two more keels on the side so she can sit flat on my 20' car hauler trailer that I just bought new, plus she could sit upright when the tide goes out,and you don't need a dingy to shore since she should not draw a lot of water. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13789|13785|2007-06-26 22:48:19|Jonathan Stevens|20' steel cruiser|I'm working on my 18 footer displacement motor boat. In due course there will be pictures posted. I had the steel for the hull ordered but then the supplier's straightening line was out of action so I am still waiting. Mind you, we've had so much rain lately I wouldn't have got very far. I am using 3mm plate for hull, deck and pilothouse. A short central keel wide enough for the sump of the engine to sit in and at present I intend to use bilge keels so she can sit upright. She was going to have a get you home sail but it looks like I may put a junk rig on her. The keels are made as are the deck fittings, bollards etc. The hull/deck patterns are lofted and cut out. Deck beams made. Cutting layout planned. There is not a huge amount of money involved in a project of this size so why not get modelling and design your boat how you would like it to be. Jonathan PS I have found the members of this group enormously helpful and free with their advice. I have learned a great deal, especially with the recent welding and welding rod discussion. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13790|13785|2007-06-26 22:48:34|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: 20' steel cruiser|Liza Jane could be adapted to origami construction - perhaps you could hire one of the more design-oriented folks in this group to develop the plans for the sheet. Seems that with 18ga decks, one would have to reinforce it som much, that you would end up not saving much weight. I think it weighs 4K lbs. Anyway, good luck. I agree, though...it would be great to have a 20 foot origami design out there. Cheers paul > Thanks Paul. > I did look at Atkin Boat Plans and I did find Liza Jane.There is > not a lot of info on that old design and from the thickness of the > steel that they want you to use"12 gauge" all around plus about > 1200lbs of ballast sure will make that boat very heavy.I was hoping > that I could use 16gauge at the hull and18 gauge for the top.I sure do > like the way they build the origamiboats, that's so simple and > fast.Well I am sure that I will get more feed back on the subject.I > still like to have a swinging keel that slides in the bottom keel and > also two more keels on the side so she can sit flat on my 20' car > hauler trailer that I just bought new, plus she could sit upright when > the tide goes out,and you don't need a dingy to shore since she should > not draw a lot of water. > > | 13791|13791|2007-06-26 22:49:01|Jim Douglas|Small Steel Sailboat|Alex, Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the Duckworks Magazine. While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami and bilge keels....Hmn. Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley and his designs on the net at the moment though. Jim Douglas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13792|13782|2007-06-26 22:49:19|peter_d_wiley|Re: wire welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I am enjoying all this animated mig talk, I'm all ears. I have been > pondering for a long time building a small micro-cruiser daysailer > boat using origami, but probably in such a small size (19 to 23 feet), > trailerable, that maybe aluminum is the ticket, so it looks like Mig > welding would be kind of necessary. A small craft with bilge stubbies > plus a dagger or centreboard for deeper water, to get the best of all > possible worlds. I am not sure if steel should be ruled out though, > maybe if it was done carefully 1/8" steel would suffice. I would put > in a lot of portlights topsides to chop out much steel, that's for > sure, and perhaps make the pilot house welded aluminum bolted onto a > flange. > > Has anyone pondered such a project? I've seriously considered building a George Buehler POGO in 4mm aluminium. Not origami but easy to do. George said I could stretch the hull to 20' without dramas. It's still on the 'possible' list. Plywood probably makes more sense with hulls this small though. I simply hate epoxy, too toxic for my liking. PDW| 13793|13793|2007-06-26 23:37:52|Alex|small metal hulls|Here is a link for some photos of a small 18 foot dutch sailboat made of steel: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17985 Gotta scroll down through the posts to find the photos. Apparently the Dutch boyscout association gives away the plans. I've seen a photo of a 15 foot steel Dutch canal pram skiff which was essentially a very beamy workboat. Frameless of course, and very nice looking. No cartopping, but sure tough as nails! I also saw some really neat steel planing skiffs in northern Ontario many years ago which were very effective speedboats. They were favoured by the french speaking northerners for some reason (the english prefered the tin sports fishing boats, the french were using theirs as workboats). I don't know what gauge they were. Anyhow, at my boatbuilding school I got to loathe the physical effects of epoxy on my body, even though I aknowledge that it is an amazing glue for building light composite boats. Even with a charcoal vapour mask on, it felt like the epoxy fumes were crosslinking in my brain, and I always got itchy arms, sometimes a rash. And that was with taking all precautions possible, including wearing barrier creams. Steel and aluminum do have their vapours in welding, but they do not cling to the project the same way as epoxy. Alex| 13794|13791|2007-06-26 23:53:30|sly_grog|Small Steel Sailboat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: Here is an alternative to steel and aluminium for small origami boats. It even beats ply as it is possible to create large shets before curving your hull. It is light core material. You can cover one side with gel coat/glass and epoxy on a flat surface to give you a really smooth finish,form your hull and then glass the other side. This then holds the shape. It is available to my knowledge in sheets from 6mm to 60mm. And when glassed is STRONG. Just an idea regards ric| 13795|13791|2007-06-27 01:55:59|Charles & Ileen Bugeja|Re: Small Steel Sailboat|It might work if we only knew what is the name of the light core material that you mentioned.Please do explain a little better.Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: sly_grog To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: Here is an alternative to steel and aluminium for small origami boats. It even beats ply as it is possible to create large shets before curving your hull. It is light core material. You can cover one side with gel coat/glass and epoxy on a flat surface to give you a really smooth finish,form your hull and then glass the other side. This then holds the shape. It is available to my knowledge in sheets from 6mm to 60mm. And when glassed is STRONG. Just an idea regards ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 24/06/2007 8:33 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13796|13791|2007-06-27 01:56:01|sly_grog|Small Steel Sailboat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sly_grog" wrote: Here is an alternative to steel and aluminium for small origami boats. Sorry; forgot to post the link http://www.nupol.com.au/productss/cid/11/category/CORES/parent/0/t/produ cts | 13797|13797|2007-07-01 02:43:01|drddias|welding/steel plate|thank you very much gary lucas you said the words I wanted to hear. you did not left anything to be said about mig welding as per small boat steel construction, do you find 3mm MARINE GRADE A steel plate at yours? Because I have never see it here in europe. minimum is 4mm, and using marine grade steel in boat construction just make all the diference. Which is an enormous resistence to corrosion in marine enviornment. We can get it in long lenghts, abrased and primed, which is realy good to work with. A bit more expensive, but it pays at the end. regards eduardo| 13798|13791|2007-07-01 02:43:11|brentswain38|Small Steel Sailboat|The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work than Farmer's 23 footer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > Alex, > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the Duckworks Magazine. > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami and bilge keels....Hmn. > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > Jim Douglas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13799|13765|2007-07-01 02:43:16|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13800|13785|2007-07-01 02:43:31|Jonathan Stevens|Re: 20' steel cruiser|Selway Fisher Design offer Fanny the Fantail Launch http://www.selway-fisher.com/Steamup20.htm, a 15 foot x six foot steel boat. Peter Nicholls Steel Yachtbuilders have built to the design. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13801|13791|2007-07-01 02:43:35|sly_grog|Small Steel Sailboat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" wrote: > > It might work if we only knew what is the name of the light core material that you mentioned.Please do explain a little better.Thanks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sly_grog > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:44 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > Here is an alternative to steel and aluminium for small origami boats. Sorry people here is the link. http://www.qdtubus.com/produc.htm The product is called TUBUS HONEYCOMB,it comes in sheet thicknesses 6 to 60 mm. The grade I have seen used is H80 from Nupol. Sure it usses resin, any type, and for those with a sensitivity that is a problem. I have found though that there are epoxies and epoxies. Some are far worse than others. I apologise if this has been discussed before but a search of the forum gave no results. regards ric| 13802|13802|2007-07-01 02:43:47|seeratlas|Origami DVD's|Alex, got the dvd's , great work :) BUT, who the hell was building the 58 foot origami? nice design but what a project. :) Did he finish? seer| 13803|13791|2007-07-01 02:43:55|sly_grog|Small Steel Sailboat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sly_grog" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sly_grog" wrote: > > > Here is an alternative to steel and aluminium for small origami boats. Don't understand what happened there. That was the wrong link. the product I am talking about is called TUBUS HONEYCOMB. http://www.qdtubus.com/produc.htm It comes in thicknesses from 6mm to 60mm. Sure it uses epoxy, or any resin for that matter so for those who are alredy sensitised its a no go. But from experience I have found there are epoxies and epoxies. Some are far more irritating than others. However this product is supper light weight and would make small origami designs really practical. Again I apologise for the problems getting this link posted. regards ric| 13804|13785|2007-07-01 02:43:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: 20' steel cruiser|Ply is a good option, especially for a trailerable boat. It might be tough to get 1/4" ply to take enough of a bend to get some of the really nice dinghy shapes that can be done in origami. Might need to steam the ply. Weight? Lightning's are 19 feet, they were originally done in ply and weigh 700 lbs. One option I've wondered about is to build in say 1/8" ply to get sufficient flex, then glue foam sheets inside with contact adhesive, (add wood pads at hard points), then glue 1/8" ply panels to the inside of the foam to finish. Epoxy cloth over. A similar approach could be taken using alloy as the external skin in place of ply/epoxy, everything else pretty much the same. In origami you are close enough to developed surfaces this should work. There are super strong contact adhesives. The result would be light, stiff, insulated, no stringers, minimal weld marks in alloy. Glue the interior furnishings to the 1/8" ply skin on the inside. For core sheets, build a large, flat table out of press board or similar. Glue on arborite. Cover this with release wax, gelcoat, mat, roven, mat, wet it out, lay foam sheets over, lay a sheet of poly over, tape around the edges to the table, insert a vacuum under the poly until cured. You now have a large, flexible sheet, beautifully finished one side, that can be cut and folded to any origami shape. Once you glass the inside, the shape is final. However, working with FG can be ugly. The big advantage of the core sheets is that they are beautifully fair and finished on the outside - nothing to paint - and can be huge - as big as the casting table. In effect you can build boats that look like they were cast in a female mold, without the expense of a mold. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 20' steel cruiser I am probably opening a huge can of worms but I can't see how steel could be justified for such a small boat. It is too heavy by the time you get a plate that is thick enough to work with. Aluminum may be ok but in my opinion it would be hard to beat plywood for a trailerable boat. Plywood boats are lightweight, strong, quickly and easily constructed, and also possible to construct using origami or stitch and glue techniques. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: charlesbugeja mb.ca> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:24:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 20' steel cruiser Thanks Paul. I did look at Atkin Boat Plans and I did find Liza Jane.There is not a lot of info on that old design and from the thickness of the steel that they want you to use"12 gauge" all around plus about 1200lbs of ballast sure will make that boat very heavy.I was hoping that I could use 16gauge at the hull and18 gauge for the top.I sure do like the way they build the origamiboats, that's so simple and fast.Well I am sure that I will get more feed back on the subject.I still like to have a swinging keel that slides in the bottom keel and also two more keels on the side so she can sit flat on my 20' car hauler trailer that I just bought new, plus she could sit upright when the tide goes out,and you don't need a dingy to shore since she should not draw a lot of water. __________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers. yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13805|13725|2007-07-01 02:44:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: aluminium welding|Will, The galvanizing plants I've been to also use a hot caustic dip before the sulphuric pickling to remove oils and grease. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "will jones" To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminium welding > Not a sissy really, but bumping up to 0.045 can create a whole different > set of problems, expecially when just slowing down will cure most a lot of > them. > > Yes, I asked about hot dip since parts go through sulfuric pickle around > 121C (250F) cold water bath then 450 then into a 454C (850F) hot dip and > then a cold water bath. Maybe the welds were not the problem. I cut my > teeth in a materials engineering lab for Westinghouse and we did a hell of > a lot of galvanizing as well as plating, resins, coatings, painting, > ceramics, etc... Failure analysis was half or more of our job. > > "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Will, > Yes the galvanizing was hot dip. I get the same response every time I > bring > up this subject, always from experienced welders. I would even agree with > you. However here is the rub. The welds we are talking about LOOK just as > nice as you could want. Every single time I have allowed the welding to be > done with 0.035" welding wire SOME of the welds fail! In other words you > could not detect a bad weld by looking at, but you could by destructively > testing it. I am not talking about my welders. I am talking about my > welders and outside contractors. In the cases where we were talking > thousands of parts that hang machinery overhead ,if one part fails I have > to > suspect the whole lot. > > This is an amateur group. I am giving advice that will keep an amateur out > of trouble. The downside to my advice is what? Everybody will look at you > funny because you are a sissy using 0.045" wire? You'll have to learn to > weld faster and finish your boat a little sooner? You may get less > distortion because the total heat input will be less? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "will jones" > To: >> Was the galvanizing a hot dip? >> >> This is slightly misleading and speaks more to bad technique than >> improper wire size. You are absolutely right in that the larger wire will >> throw more current, but alls you really need to do is slow down your >> welding speed (not your wire speed but speed you are moving the gun), or >> bump current up if your welder supports it. The larger wire and hence >> current could be covering up numerous issues from improper cleaning to >> just poor welding technique. I would use 0.030 flux core for this >> situation and move the gun a little slower, making sure I was getting >> good >> penetration. If you can't do this, then grind the edges and fill. One >> should practice on 1/4" flat plate until one recognizes how the pool >> forms >> and looks as one penetrates the steel. Punch some holes through to >> develop a feel for what steel looks like as it is burned. Run some welds >> and cut them in half to see what you did. Find someone who welds and have >> them watch you for tips. One of the nice things about >> MIG welding on general carbon steels is that you can see your pool and >> penetration more clearly than with stick. Your current is more localized. >> Slow down the speed you are moving the gun. Play with the pool until you >> get a feel for its development and how it rolls off of the wire. Push a >> pool around the current, change the angle of the gun and see how the pool >> responds. Play around, after all, it is only steel and we can weld it >> back up. >> >> >> >> >> >> Valhalla >> Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 >> Bloomington, IN >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! >> FareChase. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13806|13782|2007-07-01 02:44:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: wire welding|The advantage of aluminum in a small boat is the relative stiffness of the material per pound of weight. An aluminum panel twice the thickness of steel would be about 3 time stiffer, and about 30% lighter. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] wire welding I am enjoying all this animated mig talk, I'm all ears. I have been pondering for a long time building a small micro-cruiser daysailer boat using origami, but probably in such a small size (19 to 23 feet), trailerable, that maybe aluminum is the ticket, so it looks like Mig welding would be kind of necessary. A small craft with bilge stubbies plus a dagger or centreboard for deeper water, to get the best of all possible worlds. I am not sure if steel should be ruled out though, maybe if it was done carefully 1/8" steel would suffice. I would put in a lot of portlights topsides to chop out much steel, that's for sure, and perhaps make the pilot house welded aluminum bolted onto a flange. Has anyone pondered such a project? Alex | 13807|13793|2007-07-01 02:44:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: small metal hulls|Alex, I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the medications I've tried have helped. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:31 PM Subject: [origamiboats] small metal hulls Here is a link for some photos of a small 18 foot dutch sailboat made of steel: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17985 Gotta scroll down through the posts to find the photos. Apparently the Dutch boyscout association gives away the plans. I've seen a photo of a 15 foot steel Dutch canal pram skiff which was essentially a very beamy workboat. Frameless of course, and very nice looking. No cartopping, but sure tough as nails! I also saw some really neat steel planing skiffs in northern Ontario many years ago which were very effective speedboats. They were favoured by the french speaking northerners for some reason (the english prefered the tin sports fishing boats, the french were using theirs as workboats). I don't know what gauge they were. Anyhow, at my boatbuilding school I got to loathe the physical effects of epoxy on my body, even though I aknowledge that it is an amazing glue for building light composite boats. Even with a charcoal vapour mask on, it felt like the epoxy fumes were crosslinking in my brain, and I always got itchy arms, sometimes a rash. And that was with taking all precautions possible, including wearing barrier creams. Steel and aluminum do have their vapours in welding, but they do not cling to the project the same way as epoxy. Alex | 13808|13791|2007-07-02 03:00:38|Phil S.|Small Steel Sailboat|Honeycomb core is an interesting idea but very bad for a boat. I was an aircraft mechanic in the US Army for 10 years, working with many types of fiberglass and honeycomb core combinations. Any dent is going to leak, then you would have to route out the core material and re-bond (if your lucky. Better to build a slightly larger boat and stick to what works. Also the biggest reason I am considering a steel boat is due to the severe chemical allergies I developed working with CARC and epoxy Polymide(sp) paints. They have disabled me for life. Nasty stuff. Phil| 13809|13793|2007-07-02 03:00:54|Phil S.|Re: small metal hulls|Read up on chemical allergies, Isocyanate poisoning is really bad and can cause many systemic health issues. You need to remove all traces of the chemicals from your environment (old work clothes, clean work shop...) Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Alex, > I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering > if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the > previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the > medications I've tried have helped. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] small metal hulls > > > Here is a link for some photos of a small 18 foot dutch sailboat made > of steel: > > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17985 > > Gotta scroll down through the posts to find the photos. > > Apparently the Dutch boyscout association gives away the plans. I've > seen a photo of a 15 foot steel Dutch canal pram skiff which was > essentially a very beamy workboat. Frameless of course, and very nice > looking. No cartopping, but sure tough as nails! > > I also saw some really neat steel planing skiffs in northern Ontario > many years ago which were very effective speedboats. They were > favoured by the french speaking northerners for some reason (the > english prefered the tin sports fishing boats, the french were using > theirs as workboats). I don't know what gauge they were. > > Anyhow, at my boatbuilding school I got to loathe the physical effects > of epoxy on my body, even though I aknowledge that it is an amazing > glue for building light composite boats. Even with a charcoal vapour > mask on, it felt like the epoxy fumes were crosslinking in my brain, > and I always got itchy arms, sometimes a rash. And that was with > taking all precautions possible, including wearing barrier creams. > > Steel and aluminum do have their vapours in welding, but they do not > cling to the project the same way as epoxy. > > Alex > | 13810|13793|2007-07-02 03:01:31|edward_stoneuk|Re: small metal hulls|Gary, For eczema, emulsifying ointment works best for me. It is not expensive. Emulsifying ointment is a mix of emulsifying wax 30% w/w, white soft paraffin 50% w/w and liquid paraffin 20% w/w. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Alex, > I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering > if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the > previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the > medications I've tried have helped. > > Gary H. Lucas > | 13811|13786|2007-07-02 03:01:41|brentswain38|Re: September Visit|Ask this question again a week before you arrive here and we'll have a better idea where everyone is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > My wife and I are going sailing in September from Vancouver Island on a > charter and would like to know where the best places to see completed > and in construction origami sailboats. We are interested in the BS 36' > and 40' with the extremely long term view (8-10 yrs) to eventual > construction. > > We will be on the island from around September 7-18. My wifes parents > live around Mill Bay so boats around the vicinity would be convenient > for us to visit but we could also stop after the charter which is based > in Comox. > > If you have any suggestions or if it would be ok to see your > boat/project it would be appreciated if you let us know. This is a long > term dream for us as we are based on the prairies and still learning > about keelboat sailing. > > Don & Rina > | 13812|13791|2007-07-02 03:01:58|Charles & Ileen Bugeja|Re: Small Steel Sailboat|I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work than Farmer's 23 footer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > Alex, > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the Duckworks Magazine. > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami and bilge keels....Hmn. > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > Jim Douglas > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 28/06/2007 5:57 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13813|13765|2007-07-02 03:03:37|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Brent, You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your friends too. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13814|13793|2007-07-02 03:04:39|Knut F Garshol|Re: small metal hulls|Gary, epoxy is unfortunately one of those products that will easily develop allergy and if it has happened, there is no way back. You simply have to stay away from epoxy, completely. Sorry, but that is the case if you have actually become allergic. For anyone NOT allergic: Be extremely careful not to get the stuff on your skin to avoid developing allergy over time. An allergy treatment that may cure you (the only one I know about) is developed by Dr Nambudripad. Look up www.naet.com if you are interested. To Greg (I lost his email by mistake): Bending thick plywood to give the right curvature and nice hull lines may be hard as you said. One way to make it easier that works quite well is to mark up the areas that will go through tight curves and make parallel saw-cuts at proper angle, depth and spacing (must be tested and reproduced accurately). Just before installing the plywood sheet in question, fill up the saw-cuts with slow-curing epoxy. Install the sheet and after setting and before the epoxy gets real hard, cut away the surplus epoxy that got squeezed out by the bending which is closing the cuts (cuts made on the concave side, inside of the curve). Knut F Garshol _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [origamiboats] small metal hulls Alex, I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the medications I've tried have helped. Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13815|13765|2007-07-02 07:16:01|Alex|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I think what Brent was getting at was to not let lack of money stop you from getting you on your way. Not everyone here on the board has ready funds to buy everything off the shelf, so we have to make do. On this coast people have a long history of innovating in order to get the job done, sometimes trying to copy the idea of what's available commercially. Sometimes the imitation even has innovations and improvments not thought of in the original. Brent's simple anchor winch is a case in point. No mixed metals in it, lasts forever, rarely breaks down because it is so simple. I don't think making your own home-made version of the airhead toilet is such a big deal, as there are many composting toilets out there with a urine diverter (which appears to be the secret to keeping down the smell in these things). And welding up a toilet out of stainless steel isn't the same as making a mold of an airhead composter and literally copying it right? It will never be a genuine Air-head toilet, and might not even work identically in any case. I have seen the Airhead online and it looks well engineered, a nice piece of work. It is $869 USD, which is cheaper than some composting toilets (average $1200 I think), but it is out of my budget until I have lived aboard for year and saved the money for one! Maybe it is worth only 40 dollars in plastic and gaskets, but certainly the maker and designer have to be compensated for their efforts. Same could be said for my boat hull for sale... is it worth simply what the cost of materials are? Or less? ..*Shrug* Understandably, Gary might feel upset about his experience with the patent office, but Brent is acting in the spirit of DIY. Humans are big on appropriation, which is why all our boats tend to consistently have pointed bows :P (except for Dutch Botters, but let's just not go there on that one, hehe). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 13816|13816|2007-07-02 13:27:38|bert andjan|Working with Epoxy|Gary, You might try phoning the Gougeon Bros in Bay City, Michigan. They're the folks behind West System Epoxy. They have a very knowledgable tech department and might be able to shed some light on your exema. While all epoxies are toxic, some formulas have been worked by their chemists on to be less toxic.... I've used gallons of the stuff and so far, thank the good Lord, have remained ok. Especially avoid the dust when sanding or drilling.... The Gougeon folks have lots of sound adviseries on avoiding health problems with the stuff. Bert in Saginaw, Mi Gary wrote: > I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering > if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the > previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the > medications I've tried have helped. > > Gary H. Lucas ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC| 13817|13793|2007-07-02 13:28:30|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM] [origamiboats] Re: small metal hulls|Phil, you are 100% right about isocyanate, but that is a component of polyurethane (which is the insulation foam product for BS boats). Alex is mentioning epoxy, which does not contain isocyanate (but you still get allergic if sufficiently exposed). Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil S. Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] [origamiboats] Re: small metal hulls Read up on chemical allergies, Isocyanate poisoning is really bad and can cause many systemic health issues. You need to remove all traces of the chemicals from your environment (old work clothes, clean work shop...) Phil --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Alex, > I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering > if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the > previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the > medications I've tried have helped. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex" > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] small metal hulls > > > Here is a link for some photos of a small 18 foot dutch sailboat made > of steel: > > http://www.boatdesi gn.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17985 > > Gotta scroll down through the posts to find the photos. > > Apparently the Dutch boyscout association gives away the plans. I've > seen a photo of a 15 foot steel Dutch canal pram skiff which was > essentially a very beamy workboat. Frameless of course, and very nice > looking. No cartopping, but sure tough as nails! > > I also saw some really neat steel planing skiffs in northern Ontario > many years ago which were very effective speedboats. They were > favoured by the french speaking northerners for some reason (the > english prefered the tin sports fishing boats, the french were using > theirs as workboats). I don't know what gauge they were. > > Anyhow, at my boatbuilding school I got to loathe the physical effects > of epoxy on my body, even though I aknowledge that it is an amazing > glue for building light composite boats. Even with a charcoal vapour > mask on, it felt like the epoxy fumes were crosslinking in my brain, > and I always got itchy arms, sometimes a rash. And that was with > taking all precautions possible, including wearing barrier creams. > > Steel and aluminum do have their vapours in welding, but they do not > cling to the project the same way as epoxy. > > Alex > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13818|13791|2007-07-02 13:28:37|Tom|Re: Small Steel Sailboat|Hello Charles If you go to origamiboats2/photos/toms BS26 you can get more info on the 26. there is a side view scetch with basic info+ photos under construction Beam 8'2" Displacment 6700lbs Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" To: Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat >I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some info as to >the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be trailerable.Any >info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get on this project.Thanks >for your time.Charles > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work > than Farmer's 23 footer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the > Duckworks Magazine. > > > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it > would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami > and bilge keels....Hmn. > > > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double > ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications > to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley > and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > > > Jim Douglas > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: > 28/06/2007 5:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13819|13778|2007-07-02 13:29:45|Ray|DVD ordering|Sorry for top posting, but, you forgot the important thing: How much to send! :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Hello Ric, > > To get a copy of the DVD set Origamiboats; The Art of Steel Boatbuilding, you can use a credit card and send to my PayPal at achristie@... by going to www.paypal.com (I can also invoice you from my paypal at your request, then just follow the instructions in the invoice as it is fairly simple), or send a cheque or money order in US funds to: > > Alex Christie > Site 5, Comp 3A > Fanny Bay, BC > Canada > V0R-1W0 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sly_grog > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Alex's hull > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > I painted my hull white today (see group's cover photo), > > Alex > > I compliment you Alex on agood looking job. > Now my question is how do I obtain a copy of your video. I live in > Australia. > > regards ric > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 24/06/2007 8:33 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13820|13765|2007-07-02 13:29:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I have most of the bits for a vacuum toilet with a holding tank option so I won't be going for a composting toilet although I have used land based ones with a urine diverter and they work fine. Regards, Ted| 13821|13821|2007-07-02 13:44:27|MattCrunk@aol.com|New Member Introduction|Hi all, I just discovered origamiboats quite by accident while searching for an entirely different type of boat list. What an interesting sounding group. I must say this has peaked my interest. I have been an avid sailor for 20+ years, have owned boats from 12' to 32' in length, and have always thought of one day building my own craft. For years now I've researched the possibility of building a Merritt Walter designed, steel-hulled, Merry Rover class schooner in the 40' to 50' range. Reading about the origami method, I wonder if this might not be good option to consider. Any schooner builders in this group? -Matt Crunk ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13822|13765|2007-07-02 16:18:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Holding tanks and pump outs do not exist in many cruising locations. Some of the biggest cat fish in the world are found in harbors, living under anchored yachts. Pump the head, you are ringing the dinner bell for many fish. What we consider waste is food or fertilizer for many other species. Added nutrients can be a problem in fresh water or small salt-water harbors. However, in salt water the problem most species face is a lack of food/nutrients. I would not be surprised to find that a bucket full of dirty laundry water dumped overboard was more harmful than the contents of the head. After all, most of the stuff from the head has already been filtered, having passed though a person. Except for pathogens, the contents of the head must therefore be fairly non-toxic. Typically, pathogens are species specific, and are killed or harmless when consumed by other species. So, for the most part, at least in salt water, what comes out of the head is only a worry for people. Having said that, a head with a good macerator is generally preferable to one that simply dumps the contents overboard, as it is easier to break down many small items as compared to a few large ones. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank I think what Brent was getting at was to not let lack of money stop you from getting you on your way. Not everyone here on the board has ready funds to buy everything off the shelf, so we have to make do. On this coast people have a long history of innovating in order to get the job done, sometimes trying to copy the idea of what's available commercially. Sometimes the imitation even has innovations and improvments not thought of in the original. Brent's simple anchor winch is a case in point. No mixed metals in it, lasts forever, rarely breaks down because it is so simple. I don't think making your own home-made version of the airhead toilet is such a big deal, as there are many composting toilets out there with a urine diverter (which appears to be the secret to keeping down the smell in these things). And welding up a toilet out of stainless steel isn't the same as making a mold of an airhead composter and literally copying it right? It will never be a genuine Air-head toilet, and might not even work identically in any case. I have seen the Airhead online and it looks well engineered, a nice piece of work. It is $869 USD, which is cheaper than some composting toilets (average $1200 I think), but it is out of my budget until I have lived aboard for year and saved the money for one! Maybe it is worth only 40 dollars in plastic and gaskets, but certainly the maker and designer have to be compensated for their efforts. Same could be said for my boat hull for sale... is it worth simply what the cost of materials are? Or less? ..*Shrug* Understandably, Gary might feel upset about his experience with the patent office, but Brent is acting in the spirit of DIY. Humans are big on appropriation, which is why all our boats tend to consistently have pointed bows :P (except for Dutch Botters, but let's just not go there on that one, hehe). Alex --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13823|13712|2007-07-02 17:28:07|Alex|Re: Video|Sorry Ric, forgot to mention the video cost is $54 USD, which includes airmail shipping. Alex| 13824|13793|2007-07-02 17:29:17|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: small metal hulls|Notching the ply longitudinally sounds like winner. Adding some longitudinal cuts to the ply allows you to form a nice radiused corner from a single piece of material. In combination with a zero chine origami hull, I've been working on a simplified deck. In theory, the cabin top can be folded on a brake, from a single piece of material, using a wedge shaped cabin side. The cockpit and seats can similarly be folded from a single piece of material. The entire boat is then assembled from the hull, deck, cockpit, cockpit bulkhead and transom. The only welding would be at the hull/deck/cockpit joint, the cockpit bulkhead, and the transom. I'm now thinking that with some strategically placed longitudinal cuts in ply, we could do the same. Create the radiused look of FG in ply. Maybe add a couple of jigs made from scrap lumber to hold everything to shape as the epoxy cures, and the same shape could be made in ply. Tape the edges, epoxy cloth over for longevity Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Knut F Garshol Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 5:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] small metal hulls Gary, epoxy is unfortunately one of those products that will easily develop allergy and if it has happened, there is no way back. You simply have to stay away from epoxy, completely. Sorry, but that is the case if you have actually become allergic. For anyone NOT allergic: Be extremely careful not to get the stuff on your skin to avoid developing allergy over time. An allergy treatment that may cure you (the only one I know about) is developed by Dr Nambudripad. Look up www.naet.com com/> if you are interested. To Greg (I lost his email by mistake): Bending thick plywood to give the right curvature and nice hull lines may be hard as you said. One way to make it easier that works quite well is to mark up the areas that will go through tight curves and make parallel saw-cuts at proper angle, depth and spacing (must be tested and reproduced accurately). Just before installing the plywood sheet in question, fill up the saw-cuts with slow-curing epoxy. Install the sheet and after setting and before the epoxy gets real hard, cut away the surplus epoxy that got squeezed out by the bending which is closing the cuts (cuts made on the concave side, inside of the curve). Knut F Garshol _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:01 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM] Re: [origamiboats] small metal hulls Alex, I suffer from Exema which started about four years ago. I've been wondering if the root cause is the all the epoxy work I did on a Catalina 22 in the previous couple of years. Itching all the time is hell, and none of the medications I've tried have helped. Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13825|13765|2007-07-02 17:29:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 09:33:45AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. Gary, I think that you're talking about two different things here. I understand what you're saying - I've got two products that a friend of mine and I are trying to produce and market right now - but the cold, hard truth is that the end users don't care what it costs the producer to do that. And rightly so - because they don't get to share in the profits if and when the product _does_ succeed, so they have no stake in it beyond utility to them. You, as the producer, take the risk and pay the money - and if you succeed, you make money, which is now all yours. It's (almost) like any other type of gamble, except you get a large chance of influencing the odds. :) From the end users POV, it's a completely different picture: and it's one you and I and everyone else here knows well. Can I get something of the same or better quality for cheaper somewhere else? Can I make something that will do the same job for less money? Can I do without it? Nowhere in there is "be as considerate as possible toward the manufacturer" - again, rightly so. "Overpriced" is a relative term, but I think that Brent is saying - as he often is - that there's cheaper ways of doing the same (or better) thing. If he's found a way, I, for one, am always happy to hear what he's discovered. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13826|13765|2007-07-03 02:51:43|seeratlas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I have been mulling over putting one of these composting type things in my boat. Anyone up on the current assessment of the viability of this concept for a sailboat? My previous boat had the electro/maceration type system, and it was a pita to keep running...not the electric part, but the material problems in handling the toxic effluent. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 09:33:45AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Brent, > > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > > friends too. > > Gary, I think that you're talking about two different things here. I > understand what you're saying - I've got two products that a friend of > mine and I are trying to produce and market right now - but the cold, > hard truth is that the end users don't care what it costs the producer > to do that. And rightly so - because they don't get to share in the > profits if and when the product _does_ succeed, so they have no stake in > it beyond utility to them. You, as the producer, take the risk and pay > the money - and if you succeed, you make money, which is now all yours. > It's (almost) like any other type of gamble, except you get a large > chance of influencing the odds. :) > > From the end users POV, it's a completely different picture: and it's > one you and I and everyone else here knows well. Can I get something of > the same or better quality for cheaper somewhere else? Can I make > something that will do the same job for less money? Can I do without it? > Nowhere in there is "be as considerate as possible toward the > manufacturer" - again, rightly so. > > "Overpriced" is a relative term, but I think that Brent is saying - as > he often is - that there's cheaper ways of doing the same (or better) > thing. If he's found a way, I, for one, am always happy to hear what > he's discovered. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13827|13765|2007-07-03 02:51:52|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Alex, I wasn't upset with my PTO experience, I was stating the facts about small guys trying to make a buck. I have 4 patents, two of them brought me about $150,000 in royalties over a period of 12 years or so. At the time it put my daughter through college. But it paled in comparison with the $600,000 I originally spent developing the technology in those patents! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank I think what Brent was getting at was to not let lack of money stop you from getting you on your way. Not everyone here on the board has ready funds to buy everything off the shelf, so we have to make do. On this coast people have a long history of innovating in order to get the job done, sometimes trying to copy the idea of what's available commercially. Sometimes the imitation even has innovations and improvments not thought of in the original. Brent's simple anchor winch is a case in point. No mixed metals in it, lasts forever, rarely breaks down because it is so simple. I don't think making your own home-made version of the airhead toilet is such a big deal, as there are many composting toilets out there with a urine diverter (which appears to be the secret to keeping down the smell in these things). And welding up a toilet out of stainless steel isn't the same as making a mold of an airhead composter and literally copying it right? It will never be a genuine Air-head toilet, and might not even work identically in any case. I have seen the Airhead online and it looks well engineered, a nice piece of work. It is $869 USD, which is cheaper than some composting toilets (average $1200 I think), but it is out of my budget until I have lived aboard for year and saved the money for one! Maybe it is worth only 40 dollars in plastic and gaskets, but certainly the maker and designer have to be compensated for their efforts. Same could be said for my boat hull for sale... is it worth simply what the cost of materials are? Or less? ..*Shrug* Understandably, Gary might feel upset about his experience with the patent office, but Brent is acting in the spirit of DIY. Humans are big on appropriation, which is why all our boats tend to consistently have pointed bows :P (except for Dutch Botters, but let's just not go there on that one, hehe). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 13828|13765|2007-07-03 17:50:46|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|A picture in the Files section led me to this product: http://www.de12ambachten.nl/English/index%20english.html It is simpler than the Air Head, and the prices they quoted by email were half of the Air Head's cost, and included shipping from Netherlands. There is a DIY version that halves even that price. There is also supposed to be a "new" product hitting the market, http://www.firstmatescabin.com/ which looks identical to the Air Head (as in bought or copied the mold). No mention of price, and it apparently did not meet its projected date of introduction, but may someday. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/archive/index.php/t-63264.html has some first hand experience with the Air Head, and more information on the Nature's Head, including that the price will be only marginally less than the Air Head. --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13829|13765|2007-07-03 17:51:03|Wesley Cox|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Ideas are not patentable, only the implementation of ideas into something tangible. A very small guy who scarcely has $6,000, let alone $600,000 who looks at an item and uses the ideas behind it, which are not protected, to make a similar item, though less refined looking, and saves him/herself $800 on something that has practical value to him/her is also making a buck by saving a buck, no? I live on both sides of the fence. Much of my career has been spent fabricating things or working with ideas or both. I've never patented anything. I thought about it but decided it's a process for those with deeper pockets than mine. I've copied some ideas. I've never copied anything in every function because if I copy something it's to improve it, not to save money. Generally by the time a commercial product makes it to market it has numerous practical weaknesses. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank Alex, I wasn't upset with my PTO experience, I was stating the facts about small guys trying to make a buck. I have 4 patents, two of them brought me about $150,000 in royalties over a period of 12 years or so. At the time it put my daughter through college. But it paled in comparison with the $600,000 I originally spent developing the technology in those patents! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank I think what Brent was getting at was to not let lack of money stop you from getting you on your way. Not everyone here on the board has ready funds to buy everything off the shelf, so we have to make do. On this coast people have a long history of innovating in order to get the job done, sometimes trying to copy the idea of what's available commercially. Sometimes the imitation even has innovations and improvments not thought of in the original. Brent's simple anchor winch is a case in point. No mixed metals in it, lasts forever, rarely breaks down because it is so simple. I don't think making your own home-made version of the airhead toilet is such a big deal, as there are many composting toilets out there with a urine diverter (which appears to be the secret to keeping down the smell in these things). And welding up a toilet out of stainless steel isn't the same as making a mold of an airhead composter and literally copying it right? It will never be a genuine Air-head toilet, and might not even work identically in any case. I have seen the Airhead online and it looks well engineered, a nice piece of work. It is $869 USD, which is cheaper than some composting toilets (average $1200 I think), but it is out of my budget until I have lived aboard for year and saved the money for one! Maybe it is worth only 40 dollars in plastic and gaskets, but certainly the maker and designer have to be compensated for their efforts. Same could be said for my boat hull for sale... is it worth simply what the cost of materials are? Or less? ..*Shrug* Understandably, Gary might feel upset about his experience with the patent office, but Brent is acting in the spirit of DIY. Humans are big on appropriation, which is why all our boats tend to consistently have pointed bows :P (except for Dutch Botters, but let's just not go there on that one, hehe). Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 7/1/2007 12:19 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13830|13830|2007-07-03 18:43:20|Alex|yacht design appropriation|The whole question of copying (or ripping off) vs creative appropriation is quite interesting. A handful of designers and builders have appropriated Brent's designs and concepts, sometimes without even modifying the plans, but Brent has never pursued them for anything but the royalty on one of the boats (in one case the plans were copied from someone and not even purchased from Brent but the builder in question I think did cough up the few hundred dollars for the plans eventually). That builder eventually left his bad reputation in BC for Florida, and became a millionaire from having raised money selling stocks in his company with the "revolutionary" idea which he still claims to have developed himself. I spoke to the guy once on the phone, and after his spiel about his amazing new system, he reluctantly admitted under pressure from my statement that their "showboat" looked startlingly just like a Swain boat that the boat was a Swain with no mods at all. Brent just laughs it off. The guys' reputation tanked in Vancouver, and it turns out his million dollar operation in Florida also tanked after attracting investors who put a lot of faith in him. He had 20 employees laid off and blamed it on the market meltdown. http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2002/07/15/daily52.html Looks to me like he followed the old adage "if you want to make a small fortune building boats, start with a large fortune," only he was using other peoples' money! Patrick Bray has a 40 footer in origami...with twin keels, an obvious inspiration from Brent. Graham Shannon did an origami boat as well (he also reluctantly admitted to me on the phone that he got the idea from Brent's boats). Another well-respected designer in the USA copied Brent's design for the 36 almost exactly, and didn't even give the smallest tip of the hat to Brent. This designer also enthusiastically copied a Phil Bolger design (I think Bolger's Hench-wife went after him soundly on that one). Nonetheless, his design mods look interesting and present an alternative option to builders (still kind of odd that he does not at least credit the original designer). Such is human nature and the world of appropriation, and it happens to Brent all the time. It simply shows that good ideas will travel far and wide, and it is in many ways a compliment to Brent's ideas that they are copied, or that they inspire similar designs. Alex| 13831|13765|2007-07-04 01:28:22|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I tried the airhead type a couple of summers ago. Altho it was never as easy as pumping it overboard , and I didn't have the ergonomics just right, its far better than any holding tank option. The critical advantage of the airhead type is it separates the solids( tiny volume) from the liquids ( huge, environmentaly harmless volume.) I had to put the vent at least 6 1/2 ft above the deck. There was absolutley no smell below deck , not even while giving birth to a conservative. The fan extracted the smell as quick as it arrived. Much of the time the fan was not needed. I put a plastic weathercocking top on the vent so it drew anytime there was any wind. I heard that it doesn't compost when cold. If it doesn't compost , it doesn't produce methane, so who cares.I put a latch and closed cell foam gasket on the lid so I can seal it if I want to. The peat moss you find under rotting logs is the best compost starter I could find. Make the liquid container as big as you can, at least 4 litres.I used a 4 litre plastic vinegar bottle as it lets you see how full it is. The sliding lid over th tory birth canal can simply be a stainless pot lid , which you lift off and set aside when labour pains start.You can make the sliding part if you want , but it's not totally neccessary. I made the mold for the top out of urethane foam, epoxy tared over , then used as a mold for the fibreglas top. Leave lots of room in the front for your heavy duty equipment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I have been mulling over putting one of these composting type things > in my boat. Anyone up on the current assessment of the viability of > this concept for a sailboat? My previous boat had the > electro/maceration type system, and it was a pita to keep > running...not the electric part, but the material problems in handling > the toxic effluent. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 09:33:45AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Brent, > > > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you > would give the > > > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what > it takes to > > > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to > market a > > > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 > building > > > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing > methods I > > > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing > going for > > > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could > start selling > > > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then > because I > > > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the > next batch, > > > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > > > > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it > is not > > > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my > patent on > > > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly > increase the > > > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of > a job for > > > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is > now in the > > > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > > > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to > your > > > friends too. > > > > Gary, I think that you're talking about two different things here. I > > understand what you're saying - I've got two products that a friend of > > mine and I are trying to produce and market right now - but the cold, > > hard truth is that the end users don't care what it costs the producer > > to do that. And rightly so - because they don't get to share in the > > profits if and when the product _does_ succeed, so they have no stake in > > it beyond utility to them. You, as the producer, take the risk and pay > > the money - and if you succeed, you make money, which is now all yours. > > It's (almost) like any other type of gamble, except you get a large > > chance of influencing the odds. :) > > > > From the end users POV, it's a completely different picture: and it's > > one you and I and everyone else here knows well. Can I get something of > > the same or better quality for cheaper somewhere else? Can I make > > something that will do the same job for less money? Can I do without it? > > Nowhere in there is "be as considerate as possible toward the > > manufacturer" - again, rightly so. > > > > "Overpriced" is a relative term, but I think that Brent is saying - as > > he often is - that there's cheaper ways of doing the same (or better) > > thing. If he's found a way, I, for one, am always happy to hear what > > he's discovered. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 13832|13785|2007-07-04 01:28:52|brentswain38|Re: 20' steel cruiser|I recently tried an experiment with fibreglas over ply. Polyester resin doesn't stick to ply well. You can easily pull it off in sheets, taking very little ply with it. Epoxy sticks well, but is expensive and hard to work with. As I've been getting other materials to stick to epoxy by putting it on while the epoxy is still wet, I tried putting polyester fibreglass over industrial formulators G2 epoxy , while the epoxy was still wet. It practically welded itself to the plywood. It could only be pulled off in chips. You shold try this on small sample pieces with whatever epoxy you plan to use to make sure it all kicks off ( S1 sealer would be worth a try), before doing larger projects with it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Ply is a good option, especially for a trailerable boat. It might be tough > to get 1/4" ply to take enough of a bend to get some of the really nice > dinghy shapes that can be done in origami. Might need to steam the ply. > Weight? Lightning's are 19 feet, they were originally done in ply and weigh > 700 lbs. > > One option I've wondered about is to build in say 1/8" ply to get sufficient > flex, then glue foam sheets inside with contact adhesive, (add wood pads at > hard points), then glue 1/8" ply panels to the inside of the foam to finish. > Epoxy cloth over. A similar approach could be taken using alloy as the > external skin in place of ply/epoxy, everything else pretty much the same. > > In origami you are close enough to developed surfaces this should work. > There are super strong contact adhesives. The result would be light, stiff, > insulated, no stringers, minimal weld marks in alloy. Glue the interior > furnishings to the 1/8" ply skin on the inside. > > For core sheets, build a large, flat table out of press board or similar. > Glue on arborite. Cover this with release wax, gelcoat, mat, roven, mat, > wet it out, lay foam sheets over, lay a sheet of poly over, tape around the > edges to the table, insert a vacuum under the poly until cured. > > You now have a large, flexible sheet, beautifully finished one side, that > can be cut and folded to any origami shape. Once you glass the inside, the > shape is final. However, working with FG can be ugly. > > The big advantage of the core sheets is that they are beautifully fair and > finished on the outside - nothing to paint - and can be huge - as big as the > casting table. In effect you can build boats that look like they were cast > in a female mold, without the expense of a mold. > > Greg > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 20' steel cruiser > > > > I am probably opening a huge can of worms but I can't see how steel could be > justified for such a small boat. It is too heavy by the time you get a plate > that is thick enough to work with. Aluminum may be ok but in my opinion it > would be hard to beat plywood for a trailerable boat. Plywood boats are > lightweight, strong, quickly and easily constructed, and also possible to > construct using origami or stitch and glue techniques. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: charlesbugeja > mb.ca> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:24:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] 20' steel cruiser > > Thanks Paul. > I did look at Atkin Boat Plans and I did find Liza Jane.There is > not a lot of info on that old design and from the thickness of the > steel that they want you to use"12 gauge" all around plus about > 1200lbs of ballast sure will make that boat very heavy.I was hoping > that I could use 16gauge at the hull and18 gauge for the top.I sure do > like the way they build the origamiboats, that's so simple and > fast.Well I am sure that I will get more feed back on the subject.I > still like to have a swinging keel that slides in the bottom keel and > also two more keels on the side so she can sit flat on my 20' car > hauler trailer that I just bought new, plus she could sit upright when > the tide goes out,and you don't need a dingy to shore since she should > not draw a lot of water. > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers. > yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13833|13833|2007-07-04 01:28:54|Tom|Belt Drive System?|I know this isn't a Steel boat but maybe someone knows how this drive train was intended to work. I recently looked at an abandoned Project boat (Owner walked off with Alheizemers 6 years ago) and was puzzled by the Drive system he had started to install. It is a Cascade 42 with Transom changed for 44' overall. See drawing posted on Group site. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/2168?b=1 They were going to use the freely rotating prop for power generator and Refrig compressor while sailing but there seems to be a lot missing. Has anyone used their prop for a Turbine for power/Refrig use? I couldn't find model number on the Westerbeke engine but probably 40 HP? Thanks,| 13834|13791|2007-07-04 01:30:13|brentswain38|Small Steel Sailboat|26 ft overall, sloop rigged 8 ft beam ,twin keeler 3 ft draft, 6700 lbs empty, ten guage topside plates 3/16th bottom plate , takes a standard soling mainsail. Plans $200. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" wrote: > > I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work > than Farmer's 23 footer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the > Duckworks Magazine. > > > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it > would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami > and bilge keels....Hmn. > > > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double > ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications > to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley > and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > > > Jim Douglas > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 28/06/2007 5:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13835|13765|2007-07-04 01:31:34|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I have heard quotes of nearly $1,000 for what is a lot less in plastic moldings.I can't see the justification for what is there. The method of separation of solids from liquids was developed by NASA ,which is not allowed to hold patents, making it public domain. The high price probably has a lot to do with them being far less common than the simplicity of the concept and their efficiency would justify.The builder should try for volume rather than the jackpot. Patent law is a huge pain in the ass and a major deterrent to creativity and innovation.It is designed to the golden rule ; those who have the gold make the rules. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would give the > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it takes to > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing methods I > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing going for > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start selling > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then because I > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next batch, > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my patent on > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase the > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a job for > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now in the > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > friends too. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 13836|13765|2007-07-04 01:31:47|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been sterilised of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can you buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which are only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties as a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat go into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener over the septic tank." Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at night ,in any harbour I'm in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Holding tanks and pump outs do not exist in many cruising locations. Some > of the biggest cat fish in the world are found in harbors, living under > anchored yachts. Pump the head, you are ringing the dinner bell for many > fish. What we consider waste is food or fertilizer for many other species. > > Added nutrients can be a problem in fresh water or small salt-water harbors. > However, in salt water the problem most species face is a lack of > food/nutrients. I would not be surprised to find that a bucket full of > dirty laundry water dumped overboard was more harmful than the contents of > the head. > > After all, most of the stuff from the head has already been filtered, having > passed though a person. Except for pathogens, the contents of the head must > therefore be fairly non-toxic. Typically, pathogens are species specific, > and are killed or harmless when consumed by other species. So, for the most > part, at least in salt water, what comes out of the head is only a worry for > people. > > Having said that, a head with a good macerator is generally preferable to > one that simply dumps the contents overboard, as it is easier to break down > many small items as compared to a few large ones. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:51 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > > I think what Brent was getting at was to not let lack of money stop > you from getting you on your way. Not everyone here on the board has > ready funds to buy everything off the shelf, so we have to make do. On > this coast people have a long history of innovating in order to get > the job done, sometimes trying to copy the idea of what's available > commercially. Sometimes the imitation even has innovations and improvments > not thought of in the original. Brent's simple anchor winch is a case in > point. No mixed metals in it, lasts forever, rarely breaks down because it > is so simple. > > I don't think making your own home-made version of the airhead toilet > is such a big deal, as there are many composting toilets out there with a > urine diverter (which appears to be the secret to keeping down the smell in > these things). And welding up a toilet out of stainless steel isn't the same > as making a mold of an airhead composter and literally copying it right? It > will never be a genuine Air-head toilet, and might not even work identically > in any case. I have seen the Airhead online and it looks well engineered, a > nice piece of work. It is $869 USD, which is cheaper than some composting > toilets (average $1200 I think), but it is out of my budget until I have > lived aboard for year and saved the money for one! Maybe it is worth only 40 > dollars in plastic and gaskets, but certainly the maker and designer have to > be compensated for their efforts. > > Same could be said for my boat hull for sale... is it worth simply what the > cost of materials are? Or less? ..*Shrug* > > Understandably, Gary might feel upset about his experience with the > patent office, but Brent is acting in the spirit of DIY. Humans are > big on appropriation, which is why all our boats tend to consistently > have pointed bows :P (except for Dutch Botters, but let's just not go > there on that one, hehe). > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you would > give the > > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what it > takes to > > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to market a > > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 building > > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing > methods I > > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing > going for > > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could start > selling > > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then > because I > > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the next > batch, > > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it is not > > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my > patent on > > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly increase > the > > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of a > job for > > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is now > in the > > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to your > > friends too. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > > > > I think I'd go for the "Airhead" type composting hed long before I'd > > ever consider a holding tank. They are overpriced, but simple to biuld > > yourself. I experimented with one a couple of summers ago and found > > them totally adequate, and totally odour free. Making the vent pipe at > > the stern and at least 7 ft high eliminated any odour outside. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have got a HDPE (high density polyethylene) tank that I was thinking > > > of using as a sewage holding tank. However I note that although HDPE > > > is used for sewage pipes, PP (polypropylene) seems more likely for > > > internal sewage pipes. Does anyone know if this is because the smell > > > gets through HDPE after a while but does not through PP? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13837|13791|2007-07-05 03:08:06|Tom|Re: Small Steel Sailboat|Brent 10 gage top 3/16" bottom on the 26? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > 26 ft overall, sloop rigged 8 ft beam ,twin keeler 3 ft draft, 6700 > lbs empty, ten guage topside plates 3/16th bottom plate , takes a > standard soling mainsail. Plans $200. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" > wrote: >> >> I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some > info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be > trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get > on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: brentswain38 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat >> >> >> The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less > work >> than Farmer's 23 footer. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" >> wrote: >> > >> > Alex, >> > >> > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the >> Duckworks Magazine. >> > >> > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't > suppose it >> would take the likes of this group much to change her over to > orgami >> and bilge keels....Hmn. >> > >> > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double >> ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design > modifications >> to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on > Ganley >> and his designs on the net at the moment though. >> > >> > Jim Douglas >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: > 28/06/2007 5:57 PM >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 13838|13838|2007-07-05 03:08:06|huub35|Interior lay-out|Dear all, as newbie I would like to say that I have been fascinated by the origami concept. To be honest, I am still some miles away from really starting. Still, I am collecting as much as possible on feasible (and not so) concepts for our sail-boat design. For this, I was interested in learning more about the interior lay- out as used in the BS boats. From the pictures I saw, I got the feeling that there is less space than in comparable boats of equal length (I know the van de Stadt designs, e.g. the Seal). Is this due to a smaller width, or just an optical illusion? Furthermore, I read that the Silas Crosby (a BS36 if I am correct), has a aft-cabin. As we are sailing with 3 kids, this really appeals to me (privacy-wise), is there more info available on this version? Regards, and thanks in advance for you help! Huub (from the Netherlands)| 13839|13765|2007-07-05 03:08:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Brent, Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural breakdown. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been sterilised > of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding > tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can you > buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? > I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which are > only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never > used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you > pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with > their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of > enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties as > a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. > If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat go > into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do > that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a > feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding > tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener > over the septic tank." > Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in > otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. > The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no > pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at night ,in > any harbour I'm in. > Brent > > | 13840|13833|2007-07-05 03:08:19|Tom|Re: Belt Drive System?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I know this isn't a Steel boat but maybe someone knows how this > drive train was intended to work. > I recently looked at an abandoned Project boat (Owner walked off > with Alheizemers 6 years ago) and was puzzled by the Drive system he > had started to install. It is a Cascade 42 with Transom changed for > 44' overall. See photo posted on Group site. http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/2168?b=3 This is one of those Project boats that is more Project than boat. Tom| 13841|13765|2007-07-05 03:08:31|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Hi Brent I love the metaphor! Enjoy Jim Baltaxe ITS Desktop Support Victoria University of Wellington NEW ZEALAND (04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 I suffer from mental incontinence. Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within. "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2007 2:54 p.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank I tried the airhead type a couple of summers ago. Altho it was never as easy as pumping it overboard , and I didn't have the ergonomics just right, its far better than any holding tank option. The critical advantage of the airhead type is it separates the solids( tiny volume) from the liquids ( huge, environmentaly harmless volume.) I had to put the vent at least 6 1/2 ft above the deck. There was absolutley no smell below deck , not even while giving birth to a conservative. The fan extracted the smell as quick as it arrived. Much of the time the fan was not needed. I put a plastic weathercocking top on the vent so it drew anytime there was any wind. I heard that it doesn't compost when cold. If it doesn't compost , it doesn't produce methane, so who cares.I put a latch and closed cell foam gasket on the lid so I can seal it if I want to. The peat moss you find under rotting logs is the best compost starter I could find. Make the liquid container as big as you can, at least 4 litres.I used a 4 litre plastic vinegar bottle as it lets you see how full it is. The sliding lid over th tory birth canal can simply be a stainless pot lid , which you lift off and set aside when labour pains start.You can make the sliding part if you want , but it's not totally neccessary. I made the mold for the top out of urethane foam, epoxy tared over , then used as a mold for the fibreglas top. Leave lots of room in the front for your heavy duty equipment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "seeratlas" wrote: > > I have been mulling over putting one of these composting type things > in my boat. Anyone up on the current assessment of the viability of > this concept for a sailboat? My previous boat had the > electro/maceration type system, and it was a pita to keep > running...not the electric part, but the material problems in handling > the toxic effluent. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 09:33:45AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Brent, > > > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you > would give the > > > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what > it takes to > > > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to > market a > > > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 > building > > > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest manufacturing > methods I > > > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get manufacturing > going for > > > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could > start selling > > > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. Then > because I > > > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the > next batch, > > > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > > > > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it > is not > > > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my > patent on > > > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly > increase the > > > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out of > a job for > > > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is > now in the > > > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought it was > > > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them to > your > > > friends too. > > > > Gary, I think that you're talking about two different things here. I > > understand what you're saying - I've got two products that a friend of > > mine and I are trying to produce and market right now - but the cold, > > hard truth is that the end users don't care what it costs the producer > > to do that. And rightly so - because they don't get to share in the > > profits if and when the product _does_ succeed, so they have no stake in > > it beyond utility to them. You, as the producer, take the risk and pay > > the money - and if you succeed, you make money, which is now all yours. > > It's (almost) like any other type of gamble, except you get a large > > chance of influencing the odds. :) > > > > From the end users POV, it's a completely different picture: and it's > > one you and I and everyone else here knows well. Can I get something of > > the same or better quality for cheaper somewhere else? Can I make > > something that will do the same job for less money? Can I do without it? > > Nowhere in there is "be as considerate as possible toward the > > manufacturer" - again, rightly so. > > > > "Overpriced" is a relative term, but I think that Brent is saying - as > > he often is - that there's cheaper ways of doing the same (or better) > > thing. If he's found a way, I, for one, am always happy to hear what > > he's discovered. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13842|13765|2007-07-05 03:08:49|Mario Jorge Andrade|Brent´s Boats mentioned in Moonflower of Moab website|Hello, Origami People. I´m seriously considering building a BS26. I´ve been lurking the archives and pictures for a while and I already have "da" book and Alex´s DVDs. Since there´s much less info and pictures about the 26 footers than about the others, I´d like you people to tell me which size are the boats mentioned in the (very good) "Moonflower of Moab" website, some of them I believe are 26 footers, "stretched" or not: They are: Puna, Dove IV, Easy Street, Go IV it, Visky, What If?, Idefix IV, Alaguru, Shinola, Panacea, Barbara Alan, Silas Crosby (this one I Know it´s a 36 Footer), Moon Raven and Let´s Rock. The names were taken from http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower/different%20boats.html , where there are links to pics of each one of them. Thank You very Much, in advance. Sincerely, Mario Jorge Andrade Recife - Brazil| 13843|13765|2007-07-05 15:19:53|khooper_fboats|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > breakdown. The problem with sh*t is not that it is sh*t per se--the problem is that it contains live human pathogens. The point of mandated sewage treatment systems on boats is that if you dump straight over, somebody else might swim in or ingest your effluent and pick up your hepatitis (I know you don't have hepatitis, Edward. =^) No holding tank treatment systems turn sh*t into something other than sh*t, they just sterilize it. That is what the blue stuff is for. Composting systems kill pathogens with self-generated heat (when they work). Lectra-san type systems generate chlorine using electricity and sea water. It's lovely that fish like to eat your poo, but fish do not generally get the diseases humans get, so it doesn't matter. You are not sterilizing your sewage for the sake of fish. You are sterilizing it for the sake of other humans, and if you don't, you are endangering humans if they are close enough to contact the stuff.| 13844|13765|2007-07-05 15:20:28|Carl Anderson|Re: Brent´s Boats mentioned in Moonflower of Moab website|Mario, Of the boats pictured on the website only Puna is a 26 footer (that has been stretched to 28'). Easy Street and What If? are 31 footers. All the rest are the 36 foot design by Brent Swain. John Samson (who doesn't readily give praise) commented to me that Brent's 36 foot design was " a really great boat". Carl Mario Jorge Andrade wrote: > > Hello, Origami People. > I´m seriously considering building a BS26. > I´ve been lurking the archives and pictures for a while and I already > have "da" book and Alex´s DVDs. > Since there´s much less info and pictures about the 26 footers than > about the others, I´d like you people to tell me > which size are the boats mentioned in the (very good) "Moonflower of > Moab" website, some of them I believe > are 26 footers, "stretched" or not: > They are: > Puna, Dove IV, Easy Street, Go IV it, Visky, What If?, Idefix IV, > Alaguru, Shinola, Panacea, Barbara Alan, Silas Crosby (this one I Know > it´s a 36 Footer), > Moon Raven and Let´s Rock. > The names were taken from > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower/different%20boats.html > , where > there are links to pics of each one of them. > Thank You very Much, in advance. > Sincerely, > Mario Jorge Andrade > Recife - Brazil > > | 13845|13838|2007-07-05 15:21:12|Carl Anderson|Re: Interior lay-out|These boats are a bit narrower than other designs and that does make for a smaller interior for the length. With 3 children I would go to the 40 footer for sure. Carl huub35 wrote: > > Dear all, > > as newbie I would like to say that I have been fascinated by the > origami concept. > > To be honest, I am still some miles away from really starting. Still, > I am collecting as much as possible on feasible (and not so) concepts > for our sail-boat design. > > For this, I was interested in learning more about the interior lay- > out as used in the BS boats. From the pictures I saw, I got the > feeling that there is less space than in comparable boats of equal > length (I know the van de Stadt designs, e.g. the Seal). Is this due > to a smaller width, or just an optical illusion? > > Furthermore, I read that the Silas Crosby (a BS36 if I am correct), > has a aft-cabin. As we are sailing with 3 kids, this really appeals > to me (privacy-wise), is there more info available on this version? > > Regards, and thanks in advance for you help! > > Huub > > (from the Netherlands) > > | 13846|13833|2007-07-05 15:21:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Belt Drive System?|On Wed, Jul 04, 2007 at 02:58:04AM -0000, Tom wrote: > I know this isn't a Steel boat but maybe someone knows how this > drive train was intended to work. > I recently looked at an abandoned Project boat (Owner walked off > with Alheizemers 6 years ago) and was puzzled by the Drive system he > had started to install. It is a Cascade 42 with Transom changed for > 44' overall. > See drawing posted on Group site. > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/2168?b=1 > > They were going to use the freely rotating prop for power generator > and Refrig compressor while sailing but there seems to be a lot > missing. > > Has anyone used their prop for a Turbine for power/Refrig use? I met a South African fellow in Georgetown, Bahamas who had built a pretty big steel boat (55'? 60'? don't recall exactly) who was using his system that way, and was happy to show it to me. The way he'd rigged it up was with three sets of belts and pulleys, each engaged/disengaged by an over-center lever. Normally, the engine output shaft was connected to the prop shaft; he also had a small gas engine that normally ran his generator in the same compartment and connected with the same pulley system. When he threw one lever, the prop shaft would disengage from the engine and engage the common pulley; when he threw lever #2, he disengaged the generator from the small diesel and connected it to that same pulley. Better yet, by flipping the levers around, he could get that small engine (10HP, I think) to spin his prop - a great backup system. The whole pulley and lever system looked like maybe $20 worth of scrounged parts and welded steel bits plus the belts. Incidentally - try to avoid buying belts from an auto parts store; they cost a mint, and wear out in zip time. Get machine drive belts from any industrial supplier - they come in lots of sizes, although you might have to do some reading to find out what the designation for your belt is (and sometimes, you just won't be able to find a match.) They'll last *WAY* longer (about 5-10x, in my experience) for about the same cost. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13847|13765|2007-07-05 15:21:37|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I tried different approaches in the RV. 1) do nothing - odour, especially in hot weather. 2) septic starter - huge odour, especially in hot weather 3) bleach - minimal odour even in hot weather. On a RV the holding tank is vented vertically, above the roof. You typically empty the holding tanks pretty regularly, so maybe that is an issue. Perhaps the septic starter would have settled down after time, but after two days the family voted strongly to shut it down. We couldn't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. I poured in bleach - it was all I had - and within a few minutes the smell was gone. Since then we've found household bleach a cost effective solution. Pour in a cup a day or so, depending on use and the weather. As well as neutralize odour, it stops the digestion of the waste by bacteria and the release of associated digestion gasses. Add some green food dye, a fancy bottle, you have a product to market. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 7:06 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank Brent, Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural breakdown. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been sterilised > of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding > tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can you > buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? > I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which are > only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never > used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you > pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with > their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of > enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties as > a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. > If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat go > into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do > that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a > feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding > tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener > over the septic tank." > Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in > otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. > The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no > pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at night ,in > any harbour I'm in. > Brent > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13848|13765|2007-07-05 23:20:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|khooper and Greg, I have never used a holding tank. The type that I am thinking of is the one that is plumbed in and is an alternative to pumping straight into the sea but is fitted with Y-valves so that one can do either. My understanding is that around the UK it is or soon will be illegal to discharge effluent in coastal waters. So I need a holding tank to store it until I can get to a pump out station or until I can get offshore to discharge it. Therefore sterilising it before discharge is not an issue. Pong is though. I read elsewhere that effective ventilation can stop smells developing. I would think that effective ventilation would require two large size vents so that there is a cross flow. I think that one can buy carbon filters to put in the vents, though I guess that would slow the ventilation down. I might plumb one vent into the mast, which shouuld take the stink up and away. I have considered the composting toilet, but there is a lack of height where our toilet is and it wouldn't fit. Regards, Ted| 13849|13838|2007-07-05 23:21:20|Joe Earsley|Re: Interior lay-out|Dear Huub, I have sailed on the Silas Crosby and can attest to the great layout for kids. I am completing a regular BS36 and would have an aft cabin if I could. The impression you have of smaller interior comes from a couple of Brent Boat design points. First the side decks are a full 24" wide. That seems as big as a city sidewalk when you are walking forward. They feel VERY safe, even when heeled. The shrouds do not get in the way at all. My wife who is fearful when healed, walked forward with out fear. This side deck squeezes the interior space somewhat. The cabin sides are just over 6 feet wide at the widest part of the boat. Still, I would rather have this mix of safety vs. interior space for a blue water boat. The second thing that makes the interior seem small is the clearance between the side deck and the pilothouse floor. If you put the galley in the pilothouse, then things get squeezed vertically. Things like stoves get moved inboard to gain room for the pots. The pilot seat moves inboard as well for obvious reasons. I have been on a bunch of boats and can tell you that this design feels as safe as any workboat I've been on. Cheers! joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior lay-out These boats are a bit narrower than other designs and that does make for a smaller interior for the length. With 3 children I would go to the 40 footer for sure. Carl huub35 wrote: > > Dear all, > > as newbie I would like to say that I have been fascinated by the > origami concept. > > To be honest, I am still some miles away from really starting. Still, > I am collecting as much as possible on feasible (and not so) concepts > for our sail-boat design. > > For this, I was interested in learning more about the interior lay- > out as used in the BS boats. From the pictures I saw, I got the > feeling that there is less space than in comparable boats of equal > length (I know the van de Stadt designs, e.g. the Seal). Is this due > to a smaller width, or just an optical illusion? > > Furthermore, I read that the Silas Crosby (a BS36 if I am correct), > has a aft-cabin. As we are sailing with 3 kids, this really appeals > to me (privacy-wise), is there more info available on this version? > > Regards, and thanks in advance for you help! > > Huub > > (from the Netherlands) > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 13850|13765|2007-07-05 23:21:46|Mario Jorge Andrade|Re: Brent´s Boats mentioned in Moonflower of Moab website|Thank yo very much for the information, Carl. Looking at the pictures, I thought Dove IV and Barbara Alan could be 26 footers. I love that website and I´m waiting anxiously for the newest pics, of the foaming and sandblasting. []´s Mario Jorge Andrade Recife - Brazil Carl Anderson escreveu: > > Mario, > > Of the boats pictured on the website only Puna is a 26 footer (that has > been stretched to 28'). > Easy Street and What If? are 31 footers. > All the rest are the 36 foot design by Brent Swain. > > John Samson (who doesn't readily give praise) commented to me that > Brent's 36 foot design was " a really great boat". > > Carl > > Mario Jorge Andrade wrote: > > > > Hello, Origami People. > > I´m seriously considering building a BS26. > > I´ve been lurking the archives and pictures for a while and I already > > have "da" book and Alex´s DVDs. > > Since there´s much less info and pictures about the 26 footers than > > about the others, I´d like you people to tell me > > which size are the boats mentioned in the (very good) "Moonflower of > > Moab" website, some of them I believe > > are 26 footers, "stretched" or not: > > They are: > > Puna, Dove IV, Easy Street, Go IV it, Visky, What If?, Idefix IV, > > Alaguru, Shinola, Panacea, Barbara Alan, Silas Crosby (this one I Know > > it´s a 36 Footer), > > Moon Raven and Let´s Rock. > > The names were taken from > > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower/different%20boats.html > > > > , where > > there are links to pics of each one of them. > > Thank You very Much, in advance. > > Sincerely, > > Mario Jorge Andrade > > Recife - Brazil > > > > > > | 13851|13765|2007-07-05 23:23:24|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Since we are talking excrement, I guess I should weigh in here, because I build waste treatment systems. We specialize in systems using membranes, Ultrafilters, Nanofilters, and RO. However my current project is called an MBR (Membrane Bio-Reactor). It's a 50,000 gallon a day treatment plant for a 300 unit retirement and assisted living community in Maryland. We discharge directly to a local stream which runs straight in to the Chesapeake bay. The water we put out is crystal clear at all times, and we meet the discharge requirements proposed over the next 20 years. I'm not biological guy, so I've been learning a lot of biology lately. I bought myself a real microscope. It's an American Optical 150 binocular style with 4 objective lens up to 1000 power. I paid $250 for it on Ebay and it is a real beauty, it looks brand new but is 35 years old. It cost $1200 in 1970 so I would guess it would cost a lot more today. I also bought a USB 3 megapixel eyepiece camera so we can look at the bugs on a big screen and record what we see. I've spent a lot of time learning about which bugs do what. The bacteria which actually break down the waste are really small and hard to see. There are also filamentatous bacteria that cause all kinds of foaming problems, blinding of the screens etc. Then there are the higher level life forms like amoebas, rotifers etc. that are indicator organisms. When you see them you know you have the waste breaking bacteria because that is what they eat. When you see too many your sludge age may be too great and you start having problems, so you have to waste sludge off. This then gets sent for further treatment. Basically biological systems fall into two categories. Anaerobic and Aerobic. Anaerobic bacteria don't need oxygen, and they give off methane and hydrogen sulfide, which is why septic tanks stink so badly. Aerobic bacteria need oxygen and give off carbon dioxide and nitrogen. So they don't have a bad smell. We have small rotary screen that removes fibers and non soluble solids from the incoming waste water and it stinks really bad from the anaerobic bacteria. It then goes into a 10,000 gallon tank ( the bio-reactor) that is aerated and the aerobic bacteria eat all of waste instantly forming nitrates (nitrogen compounds) and giving off carbon dioxide. The smell from that tank is slightly yeasty, like fresh bread. We also have a tank that is kept low in oxygen, but not septic. When the bacteria flow into that tank they suddenly don't have enough oxygen. So they break down the nitrates for the oxygen molecules, and release the nitrogen back into the air. The ultrafilter membranes have pores so small that no solids can pass through. So on one side we have raw sewage and on the other side we have crystal clear water. It still amazes me when I see it. Composting systems use aerobic bacteria to breakdown the waste. If you let the urine go into the compost it will be too acidic for the aerobic bacteria to thrive and the excess moisture will keep the bacteria from getting oxygen. It will then go septic, the anaerobic bacteria take over. They will break down the waste, but they generate methane and hydrogen sulfide so you get a bad smell. To help the aerobic bacteria thrive the air head toilets all have agitators to stir the waste occasionally and introduce air into the compost. So the only gases given off if you keep the anaerobic bacteria from growing are nitrogen and carbon dioxide. The air head has a stainless zig zag rod through the side of the container with a crank handle on it. You turn the crank every day a couple of times to get air into the compost. In looking at the way it works I think it would be really easy to add a weight on an arm with a one way clutch so that as the boat rocks the zig zag rod rotates all by it self. The purpose of the chemicals people add to holding tanks is to kill the human pathogens and the bacteria so you don't get smell. When the pumped out waste goes to sewage plant for further treatment those chemicals are actually a bad thing. It doesn't cause major problems because the sewage truck typically holds 3000 gallons while even a small municipal plant will treat 3,000,000 gallons a day. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank Brent, Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural breakdown. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been sterilised > of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding > tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can you > buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? > I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which are > only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never > used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you > pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with > their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of > enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties as > a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. > If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat go > into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do > that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a > feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding > tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener > over the septic tank." > Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in > otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. > The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no > pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at night ,in > any harbour I'm in. > Brent > > | 13852|13838|2007-07-05 23:26:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Interior lay-out|Brents 36 is narrower than most modern boats. Being narrower it can drive to windward when a lot of modern tubby boats get stopped dead. The narrower width in the interior is compensated somewhat by being deeper and also by being able to make the cockpit shorter. All in all, my BS 36 has a ton of room for a 36 foot boat and sails up with most boats 40 feet or larger. I have twice gone over a thousand miles in 6 1/2 days. None of it downwind. With 3 kids however, I would go for a boat 40 feet or larger if you are looking at cruising long term. It will make the difference between having a home and going camping.... Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: huub35 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 5:31:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Interior lay-out Dear all, as newbie I would like to say that I have been fascinated by the origami concept. To be honest, I am still some miles away from really starting. Still, I am collecting as much as possible on feasible (and not so) concepts for our sail-boat design. For this, I was interested in learning more about the interior lay- out as used in the BS boats. From the pictures I saw, I got the feeling that there is less space than in comparable boats of equal length (I know the van de Stadt designs, e.g. the Seal). Is this due to a smaller width, or just an optical illusion? Furthermore, I read that the Silas Crosby (a BS36 if I am correct), has a aft-cabin. As we are sailing with 3 kids, this really appeals to me (privacy-wise) , is there more info available on this version? Regards, and thanks in advance for you help! Huub (from the Netherlands) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13853|13765|2007-07-06 12:24:33|seeratlas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Brent, This reminds me, what all have you added to your book in the last, say three years? I committed the unforgivable sin...:) I let someone borrow mine and sure as hell, still trying to get it back, so I guess I'm going to need another one LOL. :) I've been seriously considering the composting solution, for places where there is just no other good option, and my design (simply because of available space) provides for two heads, I was thinking of doing one composting, and one pump-over/holding, the latter in the stern for open ocean etc. and the former in the bow, for inland lakes, canals, harbors other 'restricted' waters etc. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I tried the airhead type a couple of summers ago. Altho it was never > as easy as pumping it overboard , and I didn't have the ergonomics > just right, its far better than any holding tank option. The critical > advantage of the airhead type is it separates the solids( tiny > volume) from the liquids ( huge, environmentaly harmless volume.) I > had to put the vent at least 6 1/2 ft above the deck. There was > absolutley no smell below deck , not even while giving birth to a > conservative. The fan extracted the smell as quick as it arrived. > Much of the time the fan was not needed. I put a plastic > weathercocking top on the vent so it drew anytime there was any wind. > I heard that it doesn't compost when cold. If it doesn't compost , it > doesn't produce methane, so who cares.I put a latch and closed cell > foam gasket on the lid so I can seal it if I want to. > The peat moss you find under rotting logs is the best compost > starter I could find. > Make the liquid container as big as you can, at least 4 litres.I > used a 4 litre plastic vinegar bottle as it lets you see how full it > is. The sliding lid over th tory birth canal can simply be a > stainless pot lid , which you lift off and set aside when labour > pains start.You can make the sliding part if you want , but it's not > totally neccessary. > I made the mold for the top out of urethane foam, epoxy tared over , > then used as a mold for the fibreglas top. > Leave lots of room in the front for your heavy duty equipment. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I have been mulling over putting one of these composting type things > > in my boat. Anyone up on the current assessment of the viability of > > this concept for a sailboat? My previous boat had the > > electro/maceration type system, and it was a pita to keep > > running...not the electric part, but the material problems in > handling > > the toxic effluent. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 09:33:45AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > You keep saying that the Air Head is over priced. I wish you > > would give the > > > > guy a break. I've met him at a show and we've talked about what > > it takes to > > > > get a product to market. At the time I was trying to bring to > > market a > > > > paint scraper designed to remove bottom paint. I spent $5000 > > building > > > > prototypes and getting a patent. Using the cheapest > manufacturing > > methods I > > > > could find I needed at least another $10,000 to get > manufacturing > > going for > > > > an initial run of 100 units. At that point I figured I could > > start selling > > > > them, for a loss of about $50 a unit for the first hundred. > Then > > because I > > > > had paid for the tooling I could begin to make a profit on the > > next batch, > > > > assuming I still had enough cash to get them made! > > > > > > > > The Air Head is a lot more complex product to manufacture, so it > > is not > > > > surprising where his price is. A couple of years ago I lost my > > patent on > > > > the scraper because the US Patent Office decided to greatly > > increase the > > > > maintenance fees on patents to small inventors. I had been out > of > > a job for > > > > a while and couldn't come up with the $500 they wanted so it is > > now in the > > > > public domain (5,951,781). So those of you would have thought > it was > > > > overpriced anyway, can now make them yourselves, and sell them > to > > your > > > > friends too. > > > > > > Gary, I think that you're talking about two different things > here. I > > > understand what you're saying - I've got two products that a > friend of > > > mine and I are trying to produce and market right now - but the > cold, > > > hard truth is that the end users don't care what it costs the > producer > > > to do that. And rightly so - because they don't get to share in > the > > > profits if and when the product _does_ succeed, so they have no > stake in > > > it beyond utility to them. You, as the producer, take the risk > and pay > > > the money - and if you succeed, you make money, which is now all > yours. > > > It's (almost) like any other type of gamble, except you get a > large > > > chance of influencing the odds. :) > > > > > > From the end users POV, it's a completely different picture: and > it's > > > one you and I and everyone else here knows well. Can I get > something of > > > the same or better quality for cheaper somewhere else? Can I make > > > something that will do the same job for less money? Can I do > without it? > > > Nowhere in there is "be as considerate as possible toward the > > > manufacturer" - again, rightly so. > > > > > > "Overpriced" is a relative term, but I think that Brent is > saying - as > > > he often is - that there's cheaper ways of doing the same (or > better) > > > thing. If he's found a way, I, for one, am always happy to hear > what > > > he's discovered. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > | 13854|13830|2007-07-06 12:30:34|seeratlas|Re: yacht design appropriation|Not all that sure about Bray, seems to me he was working from the old twin keeler developed by, was it a Brit? I'm talking middle of last century here or slightly before. sorry mem is fuzzy, but I know Bray participated in some tank testing on fore/aft tuning of bilge keel placement. He was also coming from the stabilization of power boat angle as opposed to pure sailor if I remember correctly. In any event, I think most bilge keel people were influenced by the english westerly centaur (at least I think that was the name) which was one of the few and early commercially successful bilge keelers. As for ripping off Brent's design, I've often wondered why he hasn't stopped off in China during his cruising and talked them into setting up an origami boat factory :) Seems like they could quickly be spitting these things out in huge numbers..course that's probably why he hasn't done it :) ...more competition for mooring space :) heheheh. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > The whole question of copying (or ripping off) vs creative > appropriation is quite interesting. > > A handful of designers and builders have appropriated Brent's designs > and concepts, sometimes without even modifying the plans, but Brent > has never pursued them for anything but the royalty on one of the > boats (in one case the plans were copied from someone and not even > purchased from Brent but the builder in question I think did cough up the few hundred dollars for the plans eventually). That builder > eventually left his bad reputation in BC for Florida, and became a > millionaire from having raised money selling stocks in his company > with the "revolutionary" idea which he still claims to have developed > himself. I spoke to the guy once on the phone, and after his spiel > about his amazing new system, he reluctantly admitted under pressure from my statement that their "showboat" looked startlingly just like a Swain boat that the boat was a Swain with no mods at all. Brent just laughs it off. The guys' reputation tanked in Vancouver, and it turns out his million dollar operation in Florida also tanked after attracting investors who put a lot of faith in him. He had 20 employees laid off and blamed it on the market meltdown. > > http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2002/07/15/daily52.html > > Looks to me like he followed the old adage "if you want to make a > small fortune building boats, start with a large fortune," only he was > using other peoples' money! > > Patrick Bray has a 40 footer in origami...with twin keels, an obvious > inspiration from Brent. Graham Shannon did an origami boat as well (he > also reluctantly admitted to me on the phone that he got the idea from > Brent's boats). > > Another well-respected designer in the USA copied Brent's design for > the 36 almost exactly, and didn't even give the smallest tip of the > hat to Brent. This designer also enthusiastically copied a Phil Bolger > design (I think Bolger's Hench-wife went after him soundly on that > one). Nonetheless, his design mods look interesting and present an alternative option to builders (still kind of odd that he does not at least credit the original designer). Such is human nature and the world of appropriation, and it > happens to Brent all the time. It simply shows that good ideas will > travel far and wide, and it is in many ways a compliment to Brent's > ideas that they are copied, or that they inspire similar designs. > > Alex > | 13855|13765|2007-07-06 12:32:12|seeratlas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|mostly to try and stop the smell. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Brent, > > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > breakdown. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been > sterilised > > of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding > > tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can > you > > buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? > > I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which > are > > only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never > > used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you > > pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with > > their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of > > enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties > as > > a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. > > If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat > go > > into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do > > that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a > > feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding > > tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener > > over the septic tank." > > Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in > > otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. > > The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no > > pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at > night ,in > > any harbour I'm in. > > Brent > > > > > | 13856|13830|2007-07-06 20:40:20|cumorglas|Re: yacht design appropriation|Alex the fellow who went to florida notwithstanding, i think you are off the mark here. twin keels ave a fairly long history elsewhere. with most of our continent lacking tidal flats they just weren't popular here. we ARE indebted to Brent for having the courage to build stitch and glue boats in metal instead of plywood. His doing so was evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Brent through hard work and trial and error figured out a process that worked for metal. twenty years ago after finishing my third stitch and glue boat, i wanted to do a little garvey from a Chapelle sketch in steel with welds taking the place of the glue lines. I let my friends talk me out of it with nonsense about metal boats having to have frames and scantlings having to be too large due to corrosion. in retrospect their concerns were just plain wrong, but at some level i knew that even then. what i didn't have was the courage to ignore them and do it anyay. Brent having shown it was possible opened the door to designers who would have lacked the courage otherwise. as long as they are also adding things to our general knowledge i say leave them be. cut for emphasis --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > The whole question of copying (or ripping off) vs creative > appropriation is quite interesting. > > A handful of designers and builders have appropriated Brent's designs > and concepts, sometimes without even modifying the plans, > > Patrick Bray has a 40 footer in origami...with twin keels, an obvious > inspiration from Brent. Graham Shannon did an origami boat as well (he > also reluctantly admitted to me on the phone that he got the idea from > Brent's boats). > > Another well-respected designer in the USA copied Brent's design for > the 36 almost exactly, and didn't even give the smallest tip of the > hat to Brent. > Alex > with respect to the above. name names. let the rest of us judge for ourselves. | 13857|13830|2007-07-07 07:34:24|edward_stoneuk|Re: yacht design appropriation|Seer, Patrick Bray, on his website, refers to the work of Lord Riverdale in developing twin keel boats in the 1920s and later. He was I understand a Sheffield UK industrialist and built his boats from steel. Regards, Ted| 13858|13830|2007-07-07 15:38:49|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: yacht design appropriation|I'm not criticizing anyone for appropriating a good idea and doing their own take on it, actually. It's great to see a good idea catching on.  I intended to reference directly to Brent's mention of cobbiling together his own air-head-type toilet.  Appropriation can be a positive force both in art and science. Yacht design brings both art and science together, and appropriation is very common in that world. What I found amusing was simply the sheer number of designers who would quietly appropriate Brent's design DIRECTLY (ie, use the actual cutting patterns) while claiming it as their own innovation.  I don't know why people like Shannon or Gunter Richtler did that, only to admit in conversation with me onthe phone that they had in fact taken the design from Brent. Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's even down to the details of the cabin top, but never mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. Brent never bothered about it, obviously imitation is the highest form of flattery.  However, normally, when you appropriate someone's work or innovation, even if only using it as a desparture point, it is appropriate to tip your hat to the source of your inspiration. in Richtler's case it was evident that it was a general pattern of self-aggrandizement for the purpose of attracting investors (it worked, until his attitude led the company to the shambles it appears to be in today). Bray's twin-keel ideas were indeed inspired by Bluebird of Thorne in the  UK; the origami technique was inspired by Brent Swain, but never credited publicly on Bray's website, nor does Brent seem to care either way. In the case of the air-head type toilet, Brent made it clear he was inspired by it, rather than claiming, as Richtler did, that he designed something himself independent of any outside influence. Cordially, Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: cumorglas Date: Friday, July 6, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: yacht design appropriation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Alex > >   the fellow who went to florida notwithstanding, i think > you are off > the mark here.  twin keels ave a fairly long history > elsewhere.  with > most of our continent lacking tidal flats they just weren't popular > here.  we ARE indebted to Brent for having the courage to > build stitch > and glue boats in metal instead of plywood.  His doing so was > evolutionary rather than revolutionary.  Brent through hard > work and > trial and error figured out a process that worked for metal. > > twenty years ago after finishing my third stitch and glue boat, i > wanted to do a little garvey from a Chapelle sketch in steel with > welds taking the place of the glue lines.  I let my friends > talk me > out of it with nonsense about metal boats having to have frames > and scantlings having to be too large due to corrosion.  in > retrospect their concerns were just plain wrong, but at > some level i knew that > even then.  what i didn't have was the courage to ignore > them and do > it anyay.  > > Brent having shown it was possible opened the door to designers who > would have lacked the courage otherwise.  as long as they > are also > adding things to our general knowledge i say leave them > be.  > > > > > cut for emphasis > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > The whole question of copying (or ripping off) vs creative > > appropriation is quite interesting. > > > > A handful of designers and builders have appropriated Brent's > designs> and concepts, sometimes without even modifying the > plans, > > > > Patrick Bray has a 40 footer in origami...with twin keels, an > obvious> inspiration from Brent. Graham Shannon did an origami > boat as well (he > > also reluctantly admitted to me on the phone that he got the > idea from > > Brent's boats). > > > > Another well-respected designer in the USA copied Brent's > design for > > the 36 almost exactly, and didn't even give the smallest tip > of the > > hat to Brent. > > Alex > > > > > with respect to the above.  name names. let the rest of us > judge for > ourselves.  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13859|13830|2007-07-07 18:34:25|khooper_fboats|Re: yacht design appropriation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's even down to the details of the cabin top, but never mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. That's a pretty serious accusation, Alex, particularly in that Tanton's first 39-foot origami vessel was a center cockpit--a layout Swain has never drawn at all to my knowedge. I presume you've bought plans from Tanton and compared them to Swain's and can prove they're identical? I'm having an origami vessel drawn by Tanton and he's quite thorough and rigorous--the drawings tell the story as the design unfolds. The notion that he's ripping the design off is ridiculous, I've seen the process. Further, he's alluded to Swain as an inspiration point to me, if he hasn't to you. Have you ever emailed him? What exactly would be sufficient tribute for you? That fact that he will post drawings for his origami boats in a forum devoted to Brent Swain boats would seem to argue that Tanton isn't hiding anything, eh? It's not as if he can't design a boat by himself, for Pete's sake, even a passing acquaintance with his history as a naval architect puts that notion to rest. Ken| 13860|13765|2007-07-07 19:35:40|brentswain38|Re: Brent´s Boats mentioned in Moonflower of Moab website|Puna is the only 26 in that group, stretched version. The rest are 36 footers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mario Jorge Andrade wrote: > > Hello, Origami People. > I´m seriously considering building a BS26. > I´ve been lurking the archives and pictures for a while and I already > have "da" book and Alex´s DVDs. > Since there´s much less info and pictures about the 26 footers than > about the others, I´d like you people to tell me > which size are the boats mentioned in the (very good) "Moonflower of > Moab" website, some of them I believe > are 26 footers, "stretched" or not: > They are: > Puna, Dove IV, Easy Street, Go IV it, Visky, What If?, Idefix IV, > Alaguru, Shinola, Panacea, Barbara Alan, Silas Crosby (this one I Know > it´s a 36 Footer), > Moon Raven and Let´s Rock. > The names were taken from > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower/different%20boats.html , where > there are links to pics of each one of them. > Thank You very Much, in advance. > Sincerely, > Mario Jorge Andrade > Recife - Brazil > | 13861|13765|2007-07-07 19:40:50|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|A friend driving thru Arizona said they simply pump the contents of their holding tanks into their car exhuast pipes while driving down the highway there. The RV shops all sell kits to do this .Tailgating RV's is rare there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I tried different approaches in the RV. > > 1) do nothing - odour, especially in hot weather. > 2) septic starter - huge odour, especially in hot weather > 3) bleach - minimal odour even in hot weather. > > On a RV the holding tank is vented vertically, above the roof. You > typically empty the holding tanks pretty regularly, so maybe that is an > issue. > > Perhaps the septic starter would have settled down after time, but after two > days the family voted strongly to shut it down. We couldn't drive fast > enough to get away from the smell. I poured in bleach - it was all I had - > and within a few minutes the smell was gone. > > Since then we've found household bleach a cost effective solution. Pour in > a cup a day or so, depending on use and the weather. As well as neutralize > odour, it stops the digestion of the waste by bacteria and the release of > associated digestion gasses. Add some green food dye, a fancy bottle, you > have a product to market. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 7:06 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank > > > > Brent, > > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > breakdown. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I've read that many bays and harbours in the US have been > sterilised > > of all life forms by holding tank chemicals.Sure there are holding > > tank chemicals that claim to be environmentaly friendly, but can > you > > buy them for $1.69 a gallon in remote areas? > > I've seen boats in San Francisco with tiny holding tanks , which > are > > only there to make the coast guard go away. They are never > > used.Unless some bureucrat is swimming under your boat while you > > pump,holding tank laws are completely unenforceable. If the US with > > their firepower, can't enforce them , what hope does Canada have of > > enforcing them. Holding tank laws are simply the using of yachties > as > > a political scapegoat to appease naive landlubbers. > > If I pump my head while dried out , the tiny crabs under my boat > go > > into a feeding frenzy. It's completely gone in two days.Do they do > > that with bleach or formaldehyde? In the tropics fish go into a > > feeding frenzy when I pump my head . Do they do that with holding > > tank chemicals? As Erma Bombeck said " The grass is always greener > > over the septic tank." > > Scientist have lately been complaining about a lack of biomass( in > > otherwords shit, the start of the marine food chain) in the oceans. > > The advantage of the airhead is no thru hulls ,no plumbing and no > > pumps to break down.If I put mine back in , I'll dump it at > night ,in > > any harbour I'm in. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13862|13765|2007-07-07 19:42:48|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|I heard a guy who did experiments with holding tanks ,concluded that it's important to make your deck pumpout directly above the thru hull so you can push a stick straight thru both if it plugs up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > khooper and Greg, > > I have never used a holding tank. The type that I am thinking of is > the one that is plumbed in and is an alternative to pumping straight > into the sea but is fitted with Y-valves so that one can do either. > My understanding is that around the UK it is or soon will be illegal > to discharge effluent in coastal waters. So I need a holding tank > to store it until I can get to a pump out station or until I can get > offshore to discharge it. Therefore sterilising it before discharge > is not an issue. Pong is though. I read elsewhere that effective > ventilation can stop smells developing. I would think that > effective ventilation would require two large size vents so that > there is a cross flow. I think that one can buy carbon filters to > put in the vents, though I guess that would slow the ventilation > down. I might plumb one vent into the mast, which shouuld take the > stink up and away. I have considered the composting toilet, but > there is a lack of height where our toilet is and it wouldn't fit. > > Regards, > Ted > | 13863|13765|2007-07-07 19:50:03|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone three m iles.In BC hypothermia would kill them before they went that far. For yachts the regs will be mandatory, for cruise ships optional.The tory golden rule, those who have the gold make the rules. All tests have show the issue to be negligible except for a few tiny areas in the heat of summer only. It is a political scapegoating of yachties for political brownie points from what tories claim to be incredibly dense landlubbers. Will this lead to late night driveby shit flingings onto the front lawns of Tory MPs. It wouldn't surprise me. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic > > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > > breakdown. > > The problem with sh*t is not that it is sh*t per se--the problem is > that it contains live human pathogens. The point of mandated sewage > treatment systems on boats is that if you dump straight over, somebody > else might swim in or ingest your effluent and pick up your hepatitis > (I know you don't have hepatitis, Edward. =^) > > No holding tank treatment systems turn sh*t into something other than > sh*t, they just sterilize it. That is what the blue stuff is for. > > Composting systems kill pathogens with self-generated heat (when they > work). Lectra-san type systems generate chlorine using electricity and > sea water. > > It's lovely that fish like to eat your poo, but fish do not generally > get the diseases humans get, so it doesn't matter. You are not > sterilizing your sewage for the sake of fish. You are sterilizing it > for the sake of other humans, and if you don't, you are endangering > humans if they are close enough to contact the stuff. > | 13864|13765|2007-07-07 20:04:51|Paul|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|In the late 80's/early 90's they found bacteria levels in Lake Lanier (near Atlanta) The bacteria was found near the storm drain outflow for the city of Gainesville. It had long been documented that during heavy rains it was possible for untreated sewage to enter the storm drain system there and that this was the source of the pollution. Did the state of Georgia force Gainesville to clean up their sewage system - no, they required all boaters to install holding tanks. Nevermind that the bacteria counts around the liveaboard docks were not elevated. (chlorinator heads were required if your boat discharged) Government took the easy route - blame someone else for the problem. Boaters are an easy target. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > three m iles.In BC hypothermia would kill them before they went that > far. For yachts the regs will be mandatory, for cruise ships > optional.The tory golden rule, those who have the gold make the rules. > All tests have show the issue to be negligible except for a few > tiny areas in the heat of summer only. It is a political scapegoating > of yachties for political brownie points from what tories claim to be > incredibly dense landlubbers. > Will this lead to late night driveby shit flingings onto the front > lawns of Tory MPs. It wouldn't surprise me. > Brent > | 13865|13765|2007-07-07 20:29:37|khooper_fboats|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Water moves. How easy is it to sail there in BC without getting spray in your face? You don't have to swim through it, you only have to get a bit of mist in your eyes. Lots of people carry tuberculosis, but aren't sick with it. Lots of people carry bacterial meningitis, but aren't sick with it. Meningitis can kill you in 18 hours flat (a far-off cousin of mine expired this way a couple weeks ago, it's real). There is a long list of diseases which can easily be spread by dumping raw sewage, and you don't have to roll around in it to be endangered by it. That is why you don't dump your slop jars in the street, too. I'm not saying don't dump it overboard, I'm just saying it's common human decency to sterilize it before you do. Whether the government is corrupt is entirely irrelevant, although it's always a safe bet. =^ ) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > three m iles.In BC hypothermia would kill them before they went that > far. For yachts the regs will be mandatory, for cruise ships > optional.The tory golden rule, those who have the gold make the rules. > All tests have show the issue to be negligible except for a few > tiny areas in the heat of summer only. It is a political scapegoating > of yachties for political brownie points from what tories claim to be > incredibly dense landlubbers. > Will this lead to late night driveby shit flingings onto the front > lawns of Tory MPs. It wouldn't surprise me. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in septic > > > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > > > breakdown. > > > > The problem with sh*t is not that it is sh*t per se--the problem is > > that it contains live human pathogens. The point of mandated sewage > > treatment systems on boats is that if you dump straight over, somebody > > else might swim in or ingest your effluent and pick up your hepatitis > > (I know you don't have hepatitis, Edward. =^) > > > > No holding tank treatment systems turn sh*t into something other than > > sh*t, they just sterilize it. That is what the blue stuff is for. > > > > Composting systems kill pathogens with self-generated heat (when they > > work). Lectra-san type systems generate chlorine using electricity and > > sea water. > > > > It's lovely that fish like to eat your poo, but fish do not generally > > get the diseases humans get, so it doesn't matter. You are not > > sterilizing your sewage for the sake of fish. You are sterilizing it > > for the sake of other humans, and if you don't, you are endangering > > humans if they are close enough to contact the stuff. > > > | 13866|13765|2007-07-07 20:43:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 11:40:10PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > A friend driving thru Arizona said they simply pump the contents of > their holding tanks into their car exhuast pipes while driving down > the highway there. The RV shops all sell kits to do this .Tailgating > RV's is rare there. Looking around on the Web - seems that a lot of GMC motorhomes used to come with these installed. The original unit was called a Thermosan, and every report that I've found by an owner that has one is very positive; given that a typical exhaust manifold runs hot enough to cook off any kind of bacteria, I'm sure the thing is very effective. BUT... Unfortunately for us all, whether things like that work or not isn't the question - it's whether The Powers That Be will accept what we use as legal... and since the average bureaucrat uses a rule book instead of a brain, that route is pretty well closed. :\ By the way - in the process of researching this, I ran across a pretty nifty RV-related site that discusses lots of issues that would be of interest to any live-aboard sailor ('scuseme - "Full-time cruiser". In case you didn't know, "liveaboards" aren't allowed in many places in the US - but "full-time cruisers" are fully within their rights since they're "just passing through".) Long page about heads and such: http://www.phrannie.org/macerator.html Cut back to just the domain name to start at the top of the tree. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13867|13765|2007-07-07 20:46:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 11:49:55PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > three m iles.In BC hypothermia would kill them before they went that > far. For yachts the regs will be mandatory, for cruise ships > optional.The tory golden rule, those who have the gold make the rules. > All tests have show the issue to be negligible except for a few > tiny areas in the heat of summer only. It is a political scapegoating > of yachties for political brownie points from what tories claim to be > incredibly dense landlubbers. > Will this lead to late night driveby shit flingings onto the front > lawns of Tory MPs. It wouldn't surprise me. Much better to just empty your holding tank into a plastic-lined cardboard box, gift-wrap it, and leave it on his doorstep. Makes for lovely political commentary _and_ avoids the need to look for a pumpout. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13868|13765|2007-07-07 23:00:31|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Still happens in Portland Oregon as they are spending hundreds of millions to correct it and fines when it happens. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > In the late 80's/early 90's they found bacteria levels in Lake > Lanier (near Atlanta) The bacteria was found near the storm drain > outflow for the city of Gainesville. It had long been documented > that during heavy rains it was possible for untreated sewage to > enter the storm drain system there and that this was the source of > the pollution. Did the state of Georgia force Gainesville to clean > up their sewage system - no, they required all boaters to install > holding tanks. Nevermind that the bacteria counts around the > liveaboard docks were not elevated. (chlorinator heads were required > if your boat discharged) > > Government took the easy route - blame someone else for the > problem. Boaters are an easy target. > > Paul H. | 13869|13830|2007-07-08 02:08:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: yacht design appropriation|All invention is based on the work of those that have come before. Look at the way a house is framed, or drywall is finished, or millions of other activities. Someone invented this, others improved it. As far are I know, according to an article Gary Curtis published years ago, there was a Swedish patent on the folding "origami" style of boat, predating the 1980's. This patent was later overturned, because the technique turned out to be much older. The simple fact is that ALMOST ALL single chine origami sailboats will look similar, whether someone copied another person's patterns or not, because they are almost all developed by trial and error from paper models. Only a relatively limited number of hull shapes can be built this way, thus they look pretty much the same. These limitation are a result of the tools used to predict origami hull shapes. With better tools, a wider range shapes becomes possible. Hulls shape can be optimized to suite individual builders/owners requirements. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 12:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: yacht design appropriation I'm not criticizing anyone for appropriating a good idea and doing their own take on it, actually. It's great to see a good idea catching on. I intended to reference directly to Brent's mention of cobbiling together his own air-head-type toilet. Appropriation can be a positive force both in art and science. Yacht design brings both art and science together, and appropriation is very common in that world. What I found amusing was simply the sheer number of designers who would quietly appropriate Brent's design DIRECTLY (ie, use the actual cutting patterns) while claiming it as their own innovation. I don't know why people like Shannon or Gunter Richtler did that, only to admit in conversation with me onthe phone that they had in fact taken the design from Brent. Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's even down to the details of the cabin top, but never mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. Brent never bothered about it, obviously imitation is the highest form of flattery. However, normally, when you appropriate someone's work or innovation, even if only using it as a desparture point, it is appropriate to tip your hat to the source of your inspiration. in Richtler's case it was evident that it was a general pattern of self-aggrandizement for the purpose of attracting investors (it worked, until his attitude led the company to the shambles it appears to be in today). Bray's twin-keel ideas were indeed inspired by Bluebird of Thorne in the UK; the origami technique was inspired by Brent Swain, but never credited publicly on Bray's website, nor does Brent seem to care either way. In the case of the air-head type toilet, Brent made it clear he was inspired by it, rather than claiming, as Richtler did, that he designed something himself independent of any outside influence. Cordially, Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: cumorglas com> Date: Friday, July 6, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: yacht design appropriation To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Alex > > the fellow who went to florida notwithstanding, i think > you are off > the mark here. twin keels ave a fairly long history > elsewhere. with > most of our continent lacking tidal flats they just weren't popular > here. we ARE indebted to Brent for having the courage to > build stitch > and glue boats in metal instead of plywood. His doing so was > evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Brent through hard > work and > trial and error figured out a process that worked for metal. > > twenty years ago after finishing my third stitch and glue boat, i > wanted to do a little garvey from a Chapelle sketch in steel with > welds taking the place of the glue lines. I let my friends > talk me > out of it with nonsense about metal boats having to have frames > and scantlings having to be too large due to corrosion. in > retrospect their concerns were just plain wrong, but at > some level i knew that > even then. what i didn't have was the courage to ignore > them and do > it anyay. > > Brent having shown it was possible opened the door to designers who > would have lacked the courage otherwise. as long as they > are also > adding things to our general knowledge i say leave them > be. > > > > > cut for emphasis > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > The whole question of copying (or ripping off) vs creative > > appropriation is quite interesting. > > > > A handful of designers and builders have appropriated Brent's > designs> and concepts, sometimes without even modifying the > plans, > > > > Patrick Bray has a 40 footer in origami...with twin keels, an > obvious> inspiration from Brent. Graham Shannon did an origami > boat as well (he > > also reluctantly admitted to me on the phone that he got the > idea from > > Brent's boats). > > > > Another well-respected designer in the USA copied Brent's > design for > > the 36 almost exactly, and didn't even give the smallest tip > of the > > hat to Brent. > > Alex > > > > > with respect to the above. name names. let the rest of us > judge for > ourselves. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13870|13765|2007-07-08 11:49:46|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|On British Waterways canals you either have to have a tank - but they do provide pumpout facilities - or use a porta potti or similar.In France I think that the regs are much the same,but no pumpouts.So we either used the shoreside facilities or the sea toilet on the barge we were on.About 20 years or so ago I read about a company that was intending to supply toilets to the mining industry - in the days when we had one - which would encapsulate the waste product for later disposal.Dont know if they got very far with it though cheers Andy Airey Daft question - what precisely does shit consist of apart from water and indigestible fibre.Presumeably if it can be dried it can be burnt Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13871|13765|2007-07-08 14:25:57|mark hamill|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Andy: Your "daft" question reminded me that in the Northwest Territories in Canada we used propane incinerating toilets--gives new meaning to "being on the hot seat" A quick search revealed this company. www.ecojohn.com/?gclid=COCwoMbGmI0CFSU3hwodkXy6zg which produces incinerating and a composting unit similar to the Dutch one mentioned earlier. Will find out price--they are in California. Also, wouldn't it be possible to make a holding tank integral with the dry engine exhast system such as the Arizona idea Brent mentioned? This could either completely boil off fluids or raise the temperature to the kill level for pathogens and allow safe pump out while acting as a muffler to boot. Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > On British Waterways canals you either have to have a > tank - but they do provide pumpout facilities - or use > a porta potti or similar.In France I think that the > regs are much the same,but no pumpouts.So we either > used the shoreside facilities or the sea toilet on the > barge we were on.About 20 years or so ago I read about > a company that was intending to supply toilets to the > mining industry - in the days when we had one - which > would encapsulate the waste product for later > disposal.Dont know if they got very far with it though > cheers > Andy Airey > Daft question - what precisely does shit consist of > apart from water and indigestible fibre.Presumeably if > it can be dried it can be burnt > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 13872|13765|2007-07-08 14:53:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Andy Airey, The sewage from Birmingham and the Black Country, 2.5 million bottoms worth, is incinerated at Severn Trents Plant at Minworth. It uses natural gas as a supplement fuel. I visited it about 8 years ago. At that time it had broken down and they were partially drying the sewage in centrifuges and pumping it out of the building to a holding ground where it formed a giant cow pat. Regards, Ted| 13873|13830|2007-07-09 04:53:43|Alex Christie|Re: yacht design appropriation|Hm, actually I think his first frameless boat appears on his catalogue as a 36, but indeed it is the 39 which looks the spitting image of a Brent boat, which I now realize is the one I saw. Have a look: http://www.tantonyachts.com/images15.htm In any case, I was not starting a witch hunt, I was pointing out an example of appropriation, which is not a dirty word in my vocubulary (it's a completely neutral word in the world of art,design, engineering and architecture). Appropriation is a normal part of any good design process out there, and it's how we improve on an idea. That is also why I made a distinction between "ripping off", and "appropriation". Appropriation always credits its source, which is sounds like Tanton did for Ken while working with him on a design, though there is no credit on the web page. I don't intend to accuse anyone of anything, and I never said that Tanton ripped off a design directly. If mentioning Tanton in the same post as Richtler (who did in fact initially claim that he had developed the technique, when in fact he didn't) caused confusion, then I apologize. Brent has often welcomed appropriation of his techniques to adapt to whatever anyone wants, being that he's content with a certain set of designs that suit his tastes. I don't see Brent bugging anyone about it, either. Tanton is an accomplished and prolific designer and should be applauded for his multitude of designs which suit all sorts of needs, as well as exploration into innovative rigs. I'm glad he mentioned Brent's inspiration to you in your dealings with him, that's good to hear. For the sake of not starting flame-wars, I'll try to stick to the word "inspired by" rather than appropriation in the future in this context if that prevents misinterpretation over my intent. Perhaps that is wiser considering not everyone here on the group has a design or art history background. There should be nothing wrong with noting similarities and remarking on their inspiration source. I invite you to click here on his steel layout plan for the 39, which he offers as both centre and aft cockpit versions: http://www.tantonyachts.com/229hlmdlthumbnail.htm and enjoy the inspiration from Brent =^) The boat Tanton did which was inspired by Bolger's sharpie AS 29 is no longer there on Tanton's site as far as I can tell, so I guess I can no loger refer to it, though there was in fact an incredible uproar over it at the time it came out. I'm not sure if Bolger himself gave a hoot about it, just his wife did. Regards, Alex PS, Design number 900 is a 36 foot origami hull, though modified to be a flush deck. ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: yacht design appropriation --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's even down to the details of the cabin top, but never mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. That's a pretty serious accusation, Alex, particularly in that Tanton's first 39-foot origami vessel was a center cockpit--a layout Swain has never drawn at all to my knowedge. I presume you've bought plans from Tanton and compared them to Swain's and can prove they're identical? I'm having an origami vessel drawn by Tanton and he's quite thorough and rigorous--the drawings tell the story as the design unfolds. The notion that he's ripping the design off is ridiculous, I've seen the process. Further, he's alluded to Swain as an inspiration point to me, if he hasn't to you. Have you ever emailed him? What exactly would be sufficient tribute for you? That fact that he will post drawings for his origami boats in a forum devoted to Brent Swain boats would seem to argue that Tanton isn't hiding anything, eh? It's not as if he can't design a boat by himself, for Pete's sake, even a passing acquaintance with his history as a naval architect puts that notion to rest. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/891 - Release Date: 08/07/2007 6:32 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13874|13765|2007-07-09 04:54:08|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|For over fifteen years I've used a simple composting toilet at my workshop. An old fashioned "bucket and chuck it" (ie toilet seat above a big bucket) and sawdust. It doesn't smell really, just a little sweet sometimes. It takes a long time to get full enough to have to empty. I tend to pee in a separate container which resource I use diluted as garden compost activator. Having done the business in the bucket one chucks a little sawdust over the job, just enough to hide it and no more. I have not yet tried it on a boat. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13875|13830|2007-07-10 02:29:35|ANDREW AIREY|Re: yacht design appropriation|Anyone old enough to remember the Tom Lehrer song'Lobachevsky' wherein appeared the words 'plagiarise,plagiarise,plagiarise,only please to call it research' cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13876|13830|2007-07-10 02:34:34|khooper_fboats|Re: yacht design appropriation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Hm, actually I think his first frameless boat appears > on his catalogue as a 36, but indeed it is the 39> > which looks the spitting image of a Brent boat, which > I now realize is the one I saw. Have a look: > http://www.tantonyachts.com/images15.htm I don't have the offsets for either boat. Somebody who does would have to say if the boats are similar enough to call them "identical", which is the word you used. Do you have the plans for both, Alex? > I don't intend to accuse anyone of anything, and I never > said that Tanton ripped off a design directly. That is precisely what you said, right here: >> Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's >> even down to the details of the cabin top, but never >> mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. I think you need to prove that or withdraw it. It is not sufficient to say it and then claim you are sorry for "confusion". Now: here is Brent Swain himself giving step-by-step instructions on how to "rip off a design directly", to use your words: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/8764 Swain doesn't seem too fussy about attribution when he is sharing his experience at duplicating the hulls of other designers as closely as possible. In fact he doesn't mention attribution at all. Alex, is it possible that people with active and curious minds re-develop ideas which already exist in order to learn how they are put together? Painters and musicians learn that way. So do mathematicians and engineers. Once they understand what has been gone before, they try to improve. That does not make them parasites. If you can show (show, not claim) that Tanton ripped off Swain, or Bolger, or whatever the smear of the day is, by passing off another designer's vessel as his own, then you have a case. If you can't, then you need to tone it down, in my opinion. Ken| 13877|13830|2007-07-10 03:12:28|Alex|Re: yacht design appropriation -redux|I stand corrected Ken, you've proven an excellent point that in this case, semantics are more important than intent. In the electrically-charged virtual atmosphere of the internet I should know better than to make such bold statements. I do believe that imitation is the highest form of flattery, and you are quite right that to say that Tanton's 39 is identical is an overstatement. I wasn't attempting to defend Brent's designs, as he himself does not seem to mind people using his hulls as a starting point. Hence there are 58 foot origami hulls, 44 footers and even 28 footers, all variations on a theme, which is what Tanton's 39 footer steel twin-keeled origami and bolger-style sharpies surely must be. The bolger-style sharpie I was referring to are Tanton's design 980 here http://www.tantonyachts.com/fp_images/980ga.JPG and here http://www.tantonyachts.com/fp_images/980sl.JPG --- Please, if you own a Tanton sharpie from said design, don't beat me up, I've been worked over enough already over loose lips -- I've posted the urls to that boat for a simple look-see and I ain't gonna say nothin' about it. I'll just slide off stage left now and go to bed. I've had proven to myself that in my current life situation I can't pay enough attention to the group monitoring and management. I'm still considering handing off the torch shortly to a co-moderator so that I can focus on more critical matters pressing in on me at this time. I will return to active duty when I'm more able, though if I am able to go to sea soon as I'm planning, the hand-off will likely be more permanent. Regards, Alex Ken wrote: > If you can show (show, not claim) that Tanton ripped off Swain, or > Bolger, or whatever the smear of the day is, by passing off another > designer's vessel as his own, then you have a case. If you can't, then > you need to tone it down, in my opinion. > > Ken > | 13878|13830|2007-07-10 19:03:53|Wesley Cox|Re: yacht design appropriation|Wow, I would think someone using the word "precise" would be "precise": >> I don't intend to accuse anyone of anything, and I never >> said that Tanton ripped off a design directly. >That is precisely what you said, right here: >>> Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's >>> even down to the details of the cabin top, but never >>> mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. The sentence does not precisely say that anyone ripped off anyone. It says the boat was identical, not in any way surmising an intent. ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: yacht design appropriation --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Hm, actually I think his first frameless boat appears > on his catalogue as a 36, but indeed it is the 39> > which looks the spitting image of a Brent boat, which > I now realize is the one I saw. Have a look: > http://www.tantonyachts.com/images15.htm I don't have the offsets for either boat. Somebody who does would have to say if the boats are similar enough to call them "identical", which is the word you used. Do you have the plans for both, Alex? > I don't intend to accuse anyone of anything, and I never > said that Tanton ripped off a design directly. That is precisely what you said, right here: >> Tanton did an origami boat which was identical to Brent's >> even down to the details of the cabin top, but never >> mentioned Brent as an inspiration point. I think you need to prove that or withdraw it. It is not sufficient to say it and then claim you are sorry for "confusion". Now: here is Brent Swain himself giving step-by-step instructions on how to "rip off a design directly", to use your words: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/8764 Swain doesn't seem too fussy about attribution when he is sharing his experience at duplicating the hulls of other designers as closely as possible. In fact he doesn't mention attribution at all. Alex, is it possible that people with active and curious minds re-develop ideas which already exist in order to learn how they are put together? Painters and musicians learn that way. So do mathematicians and engineers. Once they understand what has been gone before, they try to improve. That does not make them parasites. If you can show (show, not claim) that Tanton ripped off Swain, or Bolger, or whatever the smear of the day is, by passing off another designer's vessel as his own, then you have a case. If you can't, then you need to tone it down, in my opinion. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/891 - Release Date: 7/8/2007 6:32 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13879|13830|2007-07-10 19:05:11|seeratlas|Re: yacht design appropriation -redux|I've had some correspondence with Mssr. Tanton and found him remarkably thoughtful, creative, and clearly unbound by tradition where someone, including himself, has come up with a better idea. He made no bones about his admiration for what Brent has accomplished. Seems to me, that unless someone is going to patent an idea, which would be significantly difficult in the maritime field I would think, that the very nature of the seagoing community is such that when a new idea works, its a rush to 'spread the word' to the betterment of all. Of course I would exclude the boys out there on the edge in the big dollar racing scene where a tiny technical advantage can make or break careers and fortunes for those who choose to live that way, i.e. DC et al. Add to that the fact they have to deal with an entirely artificial world (i.e. the fastest designs can't even compete for having been banned or horribly crippled under whatever the current 'rules' are...) and that's a pretty small, tho lucrative, arena. in any event, I'd be very surprised if some big time designer, brought suit against a backyard builder who took paper tracings off of one of his hulls :) to do an origami boat. He might look just a bit silly :) for pressing the issue. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I stand corrected Ken, you've proven an excellent point that in this > case, semantics are more important than intent. In the > electrically-charged virtual atmosphere of the internet I should know > better than to make such bold statements. I do believe that imitation > is the highest form of flattery, and you are quite right that to say > that Tanton's 39 is identical is an overstatement. I wasn't attempting > to defend Brent's designs, as he himself does not seem to mind people > using his hulls as a starting point. Hence there are 58 foot origami > hulls, 44 footers and even 28 footers, all variations on a theme, > which is what Tanton's 39 footer steel twin-keeled origami and > bolger-style sharpies surely must be. > > The bolger-style sharpie I was referring to are Tanton's design 980 > here http://www.tantonyachts.com/fp_images/980ga.JPG and here > http://www.tantonyachts.com/fp_images/980sl.JPG > > --- Please, if you own a Tanton sharpie from said design, don't beat > me up, I've been worked over enough already over loose lips -- I've > posted the urls to that boat for a simple look-see and I ain't gonna > say nothin' about it. I'll just slide off stage left now and go to bed. > > I've had proven to myself that in my current life situation I can't > pay enough attention to the group monitoring and management. I'm still > considering handing off the torch shortly to a co-moderator so that I > can focus on more critical matters pressing in on me at this time. I > will return to active duty when I'm more able, though if I am able to > go to sea soon as I'm planning, the hand-off will likely be more > permanent. > > Regards, > > Alex > > Ken wrote: > > If you can show (show, not claim) that Tanton ripped off Swain, or > > Bolger, or whatever the smear of the day is, by passing off another > > designer's vessel as his own, then you have a case. If you can't, then > > you need to tone it down, in my opinion. > > > > Ken > > > | 13880|13880|2007-07-10 20:05:12|dare2build|WHO CARES!|I thougt this site was about Origami Boat building.People that have gone that route sharing their experiences and others seekimg more information or solutions to problems that they may have encountered along the way. Instead seems more and more an attack on who ripped who off for the idea.My self personally I bought into this idea off building a well designed and proven design.As to whose brain fart it was does not really matter to me.If I were on a jury I would be more inclined to believe the the person that has spent many years sailing and building in this method.Than the one that sits in the office drawing up an origami design because it happens to be the flavour of the month. Any one of us can become a boat designer all you have to do is type in corrospondence school and bingo you have a wide choice schools to choose from the more you pay the faster you have your TQ.Experience is something that cannot be bought it earned the old fashion way.As to who ripped who off let lawyers handle it it really does not concern any of us. Fred Baer| 13881|13830|2007-07-11 00:26:23|Phil S.|Re: yacht design appropriation|Ken, I looked at tanton yachts web site, several of his designs are very similar to other designs I have seen. Maybe he is building on others ideas and modifying them to suit his clients, so what. Why do you feel the need to jump down Alex's throat about his opinion regarding the similarity of the designs to others? Phil| 13882|13880|2007-07-11 00:27:07|MattCrunk@aol.com|Re: WHO CARES!|In a message dated 7/10/2007 7:05:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dare2build@... writes: I thought this site was about Origami Boat building. People that have gone that route sharing their experiences and others seeking more information or solutions to problems that they may have encountered along the way. Instead seems more and more an attack on who ripped who off for the idea.My self personally I bought into this idea off building a well designed and proven design.As to whose brain fart it was does not really matter to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amen to that! Here, here. I joined this group just recently, introduced myself and asked a question about applying the origami technique to an existing design - and got zero responses. Since then, just about all I've seen from this group is a constant riff about someone swiping someone else's idea. Not a good way to make a newbie feel welcome. Folks we don't live in a vacuum, nor do we create in one. None of us. Everyone is influenced by something. Every designer builds on the work of those who came before. So is the way of the world. If a designer has secured the proper patents, trademarks, etc. and someone rips him off for commercial gain, then by all means go after them to protect your interests. Otherwise, consider it a compliment or an insult, but you take your lumps and move on. I for one see nothing wrong (and no harm done) if someone wants to copy an existing design and build it as their own personal boat, for their own personal use. Anything else would be about like a songwriter expecting a royalty check every time someone picks up a guitar and plays a tune in their own living room for the enjoyment of family and friends. Not gonna happen. Nor should it. -MC ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13883|13830|2007-07-11 00:27:12|Alex|Re: yacht design appropriation -redux|My intended point of my first post was that lots of people borrow and expand on all sorts of ideas (eg airhead toilet), not only Brent, and that there are even other designers who are obviously inspired by Brent's work, no surprise at all. And yes Brent does give instructions for converting any design form to origami, at which point it is of course no longer a copy but a derivative, that is kind of self-evident. However, what started out as an "everybody does it, even other yacht designers" statement ended up in the cut and paste court of law. There is no need here to continually throw peoples' words back at them, especially after they have clarified their points and their original intent. If that was the main mode of debate here we'd never get anywhere. Please note that I never cut and paste the words of others -- I've learned through bitter experience that one can get endlessly caught in a trap of "he said, he said", ignoring the actual intent of the person. I'm surprised that there was no response to my retraction and clarification, but rather a further fixation on my original words. Maybe it's time to move forward and concentrate one what I am saying in the present, rather than focusing on what I said several posts back and have already modified. Anything is open to debate and question, in your average democracy. Let's be clear, I never said that there is a patent on anything to do with origami construction. I'm the last person interested in a witch hunt (either pursuing one or being pursued in one), and it would behoove all of us to take a step back before flaming someone for the lack of some words ("seems to be identical" instead of "identical"). If in doubt, perhaps asking for clarification might be the way to go, according to spirit of healthy debate. Evidently I touched a raw nerve in Ken, who he said has a working relationship with Tanton for a design, however it was not my intent to stir up a hornet's nest of anger. We've strayed far off the course of the group, which is to talk about origami construction, so let's get back to it. Alex| 13884|13880|2007-07-11 07:03:15|sae140|Re: WHO CARES!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MattCrunk@... wrote: > > I joined this group just recently, introduced myself and asked a question > about applying the origami technique to an existing design - and got zero > responses. Hi Matt. Your comment above concerned me a little, as it's not usual for posts here to be ignored. I've just re-checked your first post to discover that you didn't explicitly ask about 'Origami-fying' an existing design. You wrote: "For years now I've researched the possibility of building a Merritt Walter designed, steel-hulled, Merry Rover class schooner in the 40' to 50' range. Reading about the origami method, I wonder if this might not be good option to consider. Any schooner builders in this group?" So - this could be read as you wanting to consider an origami hull as an *alternative* to the Walter design, or you actually wanted to discuss the schooner *rig*, rather than the Origami hull-building method per se. (maybe ...) Anyway, perhaps that's why no-one responded, or maybe your post simply got overlooked in the recent flaming - which happens from time to time, but in the main, this is one of the most useful and also one of the most tolerant and good-natured boating forums on the web - imho. (largely due to Alex's excellent approach to moderation. Alex - are you reading this ? Take note !!) Another possible reason is that 40ft is normally considered the upper practical limit for home-built Swain designs, as the hull is pulled together from 2 pre-curved sheets, and these become bl##dy heavy and difficult to manipulate in the larger sizes. Conversion can be done in one of two ways - one is to use Rhino or a similar software package to calculate your hull shape. The other is to build a scale half-model, pull off an 'orange peel' skin (search the message archive for "orange peel" for more details of this), then cut the skin appropriately and scale-up the resulting shape. In either case you will still have the outstanding problem of calculating the associated scantlings, although you could do worse than use Brent's existing dimensions which have been well tested and proven. In my opinion, all origami hulls tend to finish up with a similar underwater shape, and so you could do a lot worse that consider a stock Swain 40ft design, and simply install a schooner rig. There is at least one schooner junk rig of that size (Bella Via). Or - you could try your first post again, now that the flaming has died down a little ..... Good luck Colin| 13885|13880|2007-07-12 00:46:41|Phil S.|Re: WHO CARES!|Evan Shaler's boat was junk rigged also. Phil| 13886|13880|2007-07-12 00:47:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: WHO CARES!|Matt, Greg, who posts here designs origamiboats to suit. I expected him to respond to your posting. His web site is www.origamimagic.com. Regards, Ted| 13887|13887|2007-07-12 00:48:05|Phil S.|56 foot? Origami pics...|Alex, Are there any pictures posted of the large origami boat featured in the video. I looked through the photo archives, couldn't find it. Would love some more info on it. Phil| 13888|13888|2007-07-13 03:59:54|edward_stoneuk|Diesel filler pipes and caps|Hi all, What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible connectors to the engine. Regards, Ted| 13889|13765|2007-07-13 04:03:23|Dennis H. Rutledal|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Hi A couple of weeks ago I joined some friend at a cabin by the sea. The toilet used in the cabin was an electic one. A paper bag was placed in the toilet bowl (no water there) and you made your "business" in it. Finished and pleased you then pushed a small button, the bowl opened up and your crap-bag dissapeared. It was then burnt using electric heat. Liquids were not filtered out. The remains is enough to fill a cofeecup a couple of times a year. Can't se any reasons why you cant use this solution with gas also. When it comes to the "bucket-toilet" it reminds me of a story my mother told me. My grandparents had a toilet of this kind, and when full they emptiet it in the back of the garden on a big compost heap. Their children, as all children does, liked to dig holes in the garden. At one very dark evening when my grandparents was carrying the bucket between them my grandmother failed to spot one of the largest hole and tumbled into it. With the bucket following... I've alwasy been very sceptical to bucket toilets after that story :D Sincerely Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]På vegne av mark hamill Sendt: 8. juli 2007 20:25 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: [origamiboats] Re: Sewage Holding Tank Andy: Your "daft" question reminded me that in the Northwest Territories in Canada we used propane incinerating toilets--gives new meaning to "being on the hot seat" A quick search revealed this company. www.ecojohn.com/?gclid=COCwoMbGmI0CFSU3hwodkXy6zg which produces incinerating and a composting unit similar to the Dutch one mentioned earlier. Will find out price--they are in California. Also, wouldn't it be possible to make a holding tank integral with the dry engine exhast system such as the Arizona idea Brent mentioned? This could either completely boil off fluids or raise the temperature to the kill level for pathogens and allow safe pump out while acting as a muffler to boot. Mark --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > On British Waterways canals you either have to have a > tank - but they do provide pumpout facilities - or use > a porta potti or similar.In France I think that the > regs are much the same,but no pumpouts.So we either > used the shoreside facilities or the sea toilet on the > barge we were on.About 20 years or so ago I read about > a company that was intending to supply toilets to the > mining industry - in the days when we had one - which > would encapsulate the waste product for later > disposal.Dont know if they got very far with it though > cheers > Andy Airey > Daft question - what precisely does shit consist of > apart from water and indigestible fibre.Presumeably if > it can be dried it can be burnt > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13890|13880|2007-07-13 04:05:37|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|hull shape|Look at the underwater share of the G55 and an example of how underwater shape can be controlled. Especially look at the bow and stern. http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Genoa55/genoa55.htm What most designers have missed is the concept of "virtual chines". Add "imaginary" chines past the ends of the boat. Use these to alter the shape of the bows and the stern underwater, just as the real chines alter the shape of the mid-section. The result is that you can replace the spoon bow with a raked, or even plumb bow. You can increase the waterline to increase hull speed. You can move flotation lower and towards the bows to reduce pitching. You can increase the useable space inside the hull in relation to overall length. Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - they tend to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual chines" you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of classic forms. There is considerable room to optimize the shape of origami hulls for different needs. By concentrating on the past we limit origami. I don't see how it makes the slightest difference that the Wright Bros built the first airplane, except that someone had to build the first one before anyone could improve on it. However, I'm pretty sure that if we limited ourselves to only building airplanes that looked the Wright Flyer, there would be a lot less airplanes built. Greg ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:35 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: WHO CARES! In my opinion, all origami hulls tend to finish up with a similar underwater shape, and so you could do a lot worse that consider a stock Swain 40ft design, and simply install a schooner rig. There is at least one schooner junk rig of that size (Bella Via).| 13891|13765|2007-07-13 04:09:09|peter_d_wiley|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > three m iles. Around the corner on the channel from my place there's a big fish farm, well over a mile away. Funnily enough, they like your logic all too well. The pity is, there's a tidal gyre that sweeps their effluent into the bay where it forms a wonderful nutrient broth. Result - rotting algal slime in late spring. Tory logic - dump your wastes into the public waterways and let someone else worry about it. I could give lots of other examples of where pathogens from human waste have been concentrated in shellfish which have then infected people eating them with hepatitis and various other viral diseases, but there's little point. This is all well known. The big polluters are cities and the like and they should clean up their act first, but that doesn't mean that smaller sources shouldn't also do what they reasonably can. On the Barrier Reef nowadays, inside most/all of the park areas, direct discharge heads are prohibited and the fines are quite heavy. Ditto Sydney harbour, Broken Bay and most other places on the NSW coast. Too many people in the popular spots. PDW| 13892|13892|2007-07-14 16:04:18|Gary|Exhaust water pump|2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft again for rebuilt pump. The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. If this is ok I am wondering why in the heck would you use a raw water intake through hull. Why not just use the skeg for both engine cooling and raw water intake in the first place. Are there any drawbacks to this option? I am aware of the "dry exhaust" option but am wondering about why all the fuss...just use the skeg cooling for both? Thanks... Gary| 13893|13888|2007-07-14 16:04:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:53:45AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi all, > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > connectors to the engine. I'd stick with a stainless nipple coming out of the tank and a piece of heavy-duty chemically-resistant hose to connect it to the deck intake; this will avoid rust as well as eliminate stress at the connection.. Rust flakes in your diesel aren't a huge problem (they get filtered out); welding a new nipple to a diesel tank *is*. Just emptying out the diesel, and even rinsing it out with solvents, won't help with that - it can still explode while you're welding it. It's a huge PITA. Best to avoid it overall. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13894|13888|2007-07-14 16:05:05|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|I used commercial stainless steel deck fillers. They are flat on the deck so you don't break your foot on them. They don't have any rusting problems.. Mine are welded to the deck also. I would use only stainless steel for ANYTHING going through the hull or deck. Carl edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi all, > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > connectors to the engine. > > Regards, > > Ted > > | 13895|13791|2007-07-14 16:05:08|Charles & Ileen Bugeja|Re: Small Steel Sailboat|I want to thank you for your time Brent, I would like to build a small coastal cruiser that can be trailerable and I was hoping that if I take about 20% of the size and use12gauge on the bottom plate and14gauge on top,that might bring me around 3500lbs if not less.I only want to go from Florida to the Bahamas,plus do some island hoping in good weather.I see a lot of smaller boats doing this trip,and compared to those little wood and epoxy sharpies, this will be a bloody tank.I hope that you did not misunderstood me and thought that I will be doing some long passages.I live in Manitoba Canada,and all I want now that I have retired is to get away from our cold long winters.If a small boat that doesn't take to long to build,will be able to take me and the misses away for the winter months and get us safely there and back, we will be very happy.I do have a 10 hp outboard that I thought would be ok for this boat,and I also have a 20' car hauler that should make this package complete or so I think.What do you think Brent? Do you think that this should work? In Europe they have been building steel boats between 6.5 to 8 meters,and they use 3mm on the bottom and 2mm on top.They go from Spain to England and all over, so that is why I figured that maybe we could go that route.Thanks again for taking the time to read my mail and I'll be looking forward to hear from you. Charles. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat 26 ft overall, sloop rigged 8 ft beam ,twin keeler 3 ft draft, 6700 lbs empty, ten guage topside plates 3/16th bottom plate , takes a standard soling mainsail. Plans $200. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" wrote: > > I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work > than Farmer's 23 footer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the > Duckworks Magazine. > > > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it > would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami > and bilge keels....Hmn. > > > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double > ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications > to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley > and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > > > Jim Douglas > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 28/06/2007 5:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 03/07/2007 10:02 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13896|13880|2007-07-14 16:05:22|khooper_fboats|Re: hull shape|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - they tend > to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual chines" > you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of > classic forms. Can you think of a way to put a fantail stern on one? I've always wondered if that were possible.| 13897|13888|2007-07-14 18:23:10|brentswain38|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Flush fillers can be a big mistake. I once read about a couple trying to motor off a lee shore in a chop. Altho the fuel tank was almost empty and they had fuel in jerry cans, they were unable to open their flush fillers without water on deck flooding into their tanks. they barely made it off, before the engine quit. Better to have standpipes in the cockpit locker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I used commercial stainless steel deck fillers. > They are flat on the deck so you don't break your foot on them. > They don't have any rusting problems.. > Mine are welded to the deck also. > I would use only stainless steel for ANYTHING going through the hull or > deck. > > Carl > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > > connectors to the engine. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > | 13898|13892|2007-07-14 18:24:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: Exhaust water pump|On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 06:37:26PM -0000, Gary wrote: > 2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft > again for rebuilt pump. > > The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by > using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. > > If this is ok I am wondering why in the heck would you use a raw water > intake through hull. Why not just use the skeg for both engine cooling > and raw water intake in the first place. Are there any drawbacks to > this option? I am aware of the "dry exhaust" option but am wondering > about why all the fuss...just use the skeg cooling for both? I've got a keel cooler on "Ulysses", and like it a lot. My bilges (I have a single "modified full" keel) are separated into four large sections - forward, main, engine, and aft - by bulkheads, and the engine bilge has a plate welded into it about a foot above the bottom. There are two pipes going down into this "box"; the engine water circulates through it, and is cooled by the surrounding sea water. Pluses: no worries about corrosion, the engine anodes have not shown any wear or deterioration in 7 years, no need to fiddle with raw water filters or worry about algae growth in the system, no pump wear due to sediment, etc. Minuses: if I let the bottom get really, really foul, I lose most of my cooling ability. The obvious solution, of course, is "don't do that, then!" :) Besides, my folding prop would become useless well before that point... Frankly, I have to think really hard to come up with even that much. As far as I'm concerned, steel boats and keel coolers are "a match made in heaven". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13899|13765|2007-07-14 18:24:09|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|for ten months a year one can sail 500 miles in BC and count on one hand the number of boats you come within a mile of. The regs apply year round in places which rarely see another boat. Its political scapoegoating for political brownie points from naive landlubbers, serving no useful function. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Water moves. How easy is it to sail there in BC without getting spray > in your face? You don't have to swim through it, you only have to get > a bit of mist in your eyes. > > Lots of people carry tuberculosis, but aren't sick with it. Lots of > people carry bacterial meningitis, but aren't sick with it. Meningitis > can kill you in 18 hours flat (a far-off cousin of mine expired this > way a couple weeks ago, it's real). There is a long list of diseases > which can easily be spread by dumping raw sewage, and you don't have > to roll around in it to be endangered by it. That is why you don't > dump your slop jars in the street, too. > > I'm not saying don't dump it overboard, I'm just saying it's common > human decency to sterilize it before you do. > > Whether the government is corrupt is entirely irrelevant, although > it's always a safe bet. =^ ) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > > three m iles.In BC hypothermia would kill them before they went that > > far. For yachts the regs will be mandatory, for cruise ships > > optional.The tory golden rule, those who have the gold make the rules. > > All tests have show the issue to be negligible except for a few > > tiny areas in the heat of summer only. It is a political scapegoating > > of yachties for political brownie points from what tories claim to be > > incredibly dense landlubbers. > > Will this lead to late night driveby shit flingings onto the front > > lawns of Tory MPs. It wouldn't surprise me. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Why do be folks put chemicals in holding tanks? Chemicals in > septic > > > > tanks or any form of sewage treatment plant stop the natural > > > > breakdown. > > > > > > The problem with sh*t is not that it is sh*t per se--the problem is > > > that it contains live human pathogens. The point of mandated sewage > > > treatment systems on boats is that if you dump straight over, somebody > > > else might swim in or ingest your effluent and pick up your hepatitis > > > (I know you don't have hepatitis, Edward. =^) > > > > > > No holding tank treatment systems turn sh*t into something other than > > > sh*t, they just sterilize it. That is what the blue stuff is for. > > > > > > Composting systems kill pathogens with self-generated heat (when they > > > work). Lectra-san type systems generate chlorine using electricity and > > > sea water. > > > > > > It's lovely that fish like to eat your poo, but fish do not generally > > > get the diseases humans get, so it doesn't matter. You are not > > > sterilizing your sewage for the sake of fish. You are sterilizing it > > > for the sake of other humans, and if you don't, you are endangering > > > humans if they are close enough to contact the stuff. > > > > > > | 13900|13892|2007-07-16 13:29:37|polaris041|Re: Exhaust water pump|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 06:37:26PM -0000, Gary wrote: > > 2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft > > again for rebuilt pump. > > > > The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by > > using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. > > As far as I'm concerned, steel boats and keel coolers are "a match made > in heaven". > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Guys I couldn't agree more; I live in australia. I bought a jap inport Nissan TD27 diesil(2700cc) and married it to a PRM150 hydraulic box. I have 2 x 4ft sections of 6"x3" channel iron welded to the outside of the hull. The normal car water pump circulates normal car coolant through these and a jacket on the exhaust for a dry stack. It works at treat,gives me 52hp (genuine)for under $5K. These engines came out of the factory as near to being blueprinted as you will ever find. That is they are SMOOTH. Can't beat it fo simple cheap operation. regards polaris| 13901|13901|2007-07-16 13:30:03|seeratlas|on line sailing video?|Has anyone found any online videos of sailing? cruising etc? was bored and did some quick searching but didn't come up with anything worth watching. seer| 13902|13888|2007-07-16 13:30:28|polaris041|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Bigest problem wih diesel is it foams when filling and spumes back out your filler if the tank is not vented adequately. For this reason it is wise to take your filler pipe (2"minimun) to the bottom of your tank. You also need a large vent pipe to prevent back pressure (1" bore minimum, I would use 1 1/2". Brent's comments about placement are sound, and to improve weld a 8"section of 4" pipe around your filler with it's top higher than the level of the intake. Then if you have a surge back this acts as a resevoir to catch the fuel. A small hole drilled at the bottom of this resevoir back into the filler pipe will allow any blow back to re-enter the tank. regards polaris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Flush fillers can be a big mistake. I once read about a couple trying > to motor off a lee shore in a chop. Altho the fuel tank was almost > empty and they had fuel in jerry cans, they were unable to open their > flush fillers without water on deck flooding into their tanks. they > barely made it off, before the engine quit. Better to have standpipes > in the cockpit locker. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I used commercial stainless steel deck fillers. > > They are flat on the deck so you don't break your foot on them. > > They don't have any rusting problems.. > > Mine are welded to the deck also. > > I would use only stainless steel for ANYTHING going through the > hull or > > deck. > > > > Carl > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and > outside of > > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel > tanks? I > > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and > ½" > > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about > rust on > > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap > on > > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe > threaded > > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking > on > > > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with > flexible > > > connectors to the engine. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > | 13903|13880|2007-07-16 13:30:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of khooper_fboats Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - they tend > to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual chines" > you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of > classic forms. Can you think of a way to put a fantail stern on one? I've always wondered if that were possible. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13904|13888|2007-07-16 13:31:05|mauro gonzaga|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|To avoid explosion you need to purge and keep the tank filled with a continuous flow of Nitrogen or Carbon dioxide. mauro Ben Okopnik wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:53:45AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi all, > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > connectors to the engine. I'd stick with a stainless nipple coming out of the tank and a piece of heavy-duty chemically-resistant hose to connect it to the deck intake; this will avoid rust as well as eliminate stress at the connection.. Rust flakes in your diesel aren't a huge problem (they get filtered out); welding a new nipple to a diesel tank *is*. Just emptying out the diesel, and even rinsing it out with solvents, won't help with that - it can still explode while you're welding it. It's a huge PITA. Best to avoid it overall. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13905|13888|2007-07-16 13:31:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Hi Brent, What sort and size of pipe do you use to go to the keel tanks from the cockpit filler? It is quite a long run horizontally. How do you cap the pipe? Any info on your fuel set, breathers, filters, engine supply pipes, level gauges etc, up will be gratefully received. Regards, Ted| 13906|13892|2007-07-16 13:32:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Exhaust water pump|I have a Jabsco 1/2 inch raw water pump for my exhaust and had the same problem with leaks until I found out that I was being sold the wrong size seals. Someone had substituted a metric seal for SAE because it was "close enough". I had to rebuild the pump every year because the seal would start to leak and take out the bearings but now with the right size seal the pump lasts 4 or 5 years. I have never heard of the exhaust being cooled by the keel cooler. I assume it is with a water jacket. Do you need a pump to circulate this water or is the convection of the water enough? Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 2:37:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Exhaust water pump 2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft again for rebuilt pump. The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. If this is ok I am wondering why in the heck would you use a raw water intake through hull. Why not just use the skeg for both engine cooling and raw water intake in the first place. Are there any drawbacks to this option? I am aware of the "dry exhaust" option but am wondering about why all the fuss...just use the skeg cooling for both? Thanks... Gary ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13907|13765|2007-07-16 13:32:13|seeratlas|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > Also, wouldn't it be possible to make a holding tank integral with > the dry engine exhast system such as the Arizona idea Brent > mentioned? This could either completely boil off fluids or raise the > temperature to the kill level for pathogens and allow safe pump out > while acting as a muffler to boot. > Mark > Ok, PUN ALERT!!!! :) ok Andy, Mr. Hammill, hmmm wouldn't the inherent methane add to this 'afterburner' effect? LOL :) sorry couldn't resist :) seer| 13908|13888|2007-07-16 13:33:01|polaris041|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Sorry, missed this part of your question. Mild steel is adequate, just paint the outside as you would any other part of your steel. The diesil will prevent any rust on the inside of your pipes. The cap can be anything you like,black plastic,ss or mild steel. If you use the resevoir idea then cap it with anything, but position it off the weather deck. regards polaris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:53:45AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. | 13909|13892|2007-07-16 13:33:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Exhaust water pump|Raw water pump almost always leak a bit due to crevice corrosion where the seals sit on the stainless. Rather than eliminate the leaks, make sure they don't do any damage. Here is what I do. Normally the raw water pump has a breather slot, top and bottom, behind the first set of seals. Solder/braze a nipple to cover the bottom nipple, and lead a plastic hose to the wet sump. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:37 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Exhaust water pump 2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft again for rebuilt pump. The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. If this is ok I am wondering why in the heck would you use a raw water intake through hull. Why not just use the skeg for both engine cooling and raw water intake in the first place. Are there any drawbacks to this option? I am aware of the "dry exhaust" option but am wondering about why all the fuss...just use the skeg cooling for both? Thanks... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13910|13888|2007-07-16 13:35:31|seeratlas|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|-I'll second Brent's comments. Too many people design for the best of weather and conditions, better to design for the worst. Until you've tried to wrestle with 20 to 50 feet of fuel hose hanging down from a fuel station meant to fuel far bigger ships, in anything but flat calm water, you won't see the need for a raised inlet. seawater does horrible things to diesel injector pumps...expensive horrible things. Frankly i don't know about the in the locker thing, tho i guess that makes sense assuming you can lock the locker open so it isn't flopping around, but then any overspray or spillage is going into the locker... On my design I've gone with raised deck pipes with locking caps for security.(they are also 'disguised' so its not immediately evident what they are. They are also setup to accept a 'baja filter' for times when you have to take on fuel from barrels etc. Another thing, make darned sure you can tell the difference between the fuel and water inlets, in a seaway, in dead dark conditions, i.e. by feel/location etc. for obvious reasons. Its amazing to me how many production boats have ones that are indistinguishable. really makes you wonder sometimes. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Flush fillers can be a big mistake. I once read about a couple trying > to motor off a lee shore in a chop. Altho the fuel tank was almost > empty and they had fuel in jerry cans, they were unable to open their > flush fillers without water on deck flooding into their tanks. they > barely made it off, before the engine quit. Better to have standpipes > in the cockpit locker. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I used commercial stainless steel deck fillers. > > They are flat on the deck so you don't break your foot on them. > > They don't have any rusting problems.. > > Mine are welded to the deck also. > > I would use only stainless steel for ANYTHING going through the > hull or > > deck. > > > > Carl > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and > outside of > > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel > tanks? I > > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and > ½" > > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about > rust on > > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap > on > > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe > threaded > > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking > on > > > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with > flexible > > > connectors to the engine. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > | 13911|13888|2007-07-16 13:36:52|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:53:45AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > > connectors to the engine. > > I'd stick with a stainless nipple coming out of the tank and a piece of > heavy-duty chemically-resistant hose to connect it to the deck intake; > this will avoid rust as well as eliminate stress at the connection.. > Rust flakes in your diesel aren't a huge problem (they get filtered > out); welding a new nipple to a diesel tank *is*. Just emptying out the > diesel, and even rinsing it out with solvents, won't help with that - it > can still explode while you're welding it. It's a huge PITA. Best to > avoid it overall. There's a perfectly safe way to deal with this. You fill the tank with water to a level just below the top plate. This reduces the air space to almost nothing and the vapour available to flash explode simply doesn't exist. We got taught this technique when I did my welding ticket some 20+ years ago. Works for tanks that have been filled with more volatile fuels too. However I agree a problem avoided is better than one you have to deal with and a s/steel nipple likely will be a permanent solution. PDW| 13912|13888|2007-07-16 19:59:30|brentswain38|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|I've actually seen people do things as incredibly foolish as put their filler pipes on the sidedecks,where they will be under water on a good windward beat.The slightest lack of tightening the caps lets water flow into the diesel tanks.All it takes is a very brief moment of forgetfulness. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > -I'll second Brent's comments. Too many people design for the best of > weather and conditions, better to design for the worst. Until you've > tried to wrestle with 20 to 50 feet of fuel hose hanging down from a > fuel station meant to fuel far bigger ships, in anything but flat calm > water, you won't see the need for a raised inlet. seawater does > horrible things to diesel injector pumps...expensive horrible things. > Frankly i don't know about the in the locker thing, tho i guess that > makes sense assuming you can lock the locker open so it isn't flopping > around, but then any overspray or spillage is going into the locker... > > On my design I've gone with raised deck pipes with locking caps for > security.(they are also 'disguised' so its not immediately evident > what they are. They are also setup to accept a 'baja filter' for times > when you have to take on fuel from barrels etc. Another thing, make > darned sure you can tell the difference between the fuel and water > inlets, in a seaway, in dead dark conditions, i.e. by feel/location > etc. for obvious reasons. Its amazing to me how many production boats > have ones that are indistinguishable. really makes you wonder sometimes. > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Flush fillers can be a big mistake. I once read about a couple trying > > to motor off a lee shore in a chop. Altho the fuel tank was almost > > empty and they had fuel in jerry cans, they were unable to open their > > flush fillers without water on deck flooding into their tanks. they > > barely made it off, before the engine quit. Better to have standpipes > > in the cockpit locker. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > I used commercial stainless steel deck fillers. > > > They are flat on the deck so you don't break your foot on them. > > > They don't have any rusting problems.. > > > Mine are welded to the deck also. > > > I would use only stainless steel for ANYTHING going through the > > hull or > > > deck. > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and > > outside of > > > > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel > > tanks? I > > > > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and > > ½" > > > > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about > > rust on > > > > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap > > on > > > > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe > > threaded > > > > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking > > on > > > > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with > > flexible > > > > connectors to the engine. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13913|13880|2007-07-16 19:59:31|brentswain38|Re: WHO CARES!|I make no claim of having invented origami. It has been common sheet metal practise for centuries. t was jjust a matter of time befor eit becomes standard metal boatbuilding practise , altho there will always be dinosaurs around , trying to keep what they learned relevant ,to try vainly to maintain own relevance.I apologise for not getting to answer your questions, but as I cruise full time, I don't get every message that comes in. Sometimes I'm weeks between computer sessions. Re submit any questions you have, and I'll try answer them Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MattCrunk@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/10/2007 7:05:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > dare2build@... writes: > > I thought this site was about Origami Boat building. People that have > gone that route sharing their experiences and others seeking more > information or solutions to problems that they may have encountered > along the way. > Instead seems more and more an attack on who ripped who off for the > idea.My self personally I bought into this idea off building a well > designed and proven design.As to whose brain fart it was does not > really matter to me. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Amen to that! Here, here. > > I joined this group just recently, introduced myself and asked a question > about applying the origami technique to an existing design - and got zero > responses. Since then, just about all I've seen from this group is a constant riff > about someone swiping someone else's idea. Not a good way to make a newbie > feel welcome. > > Folks we don't live in a vacuum, nor do we create in one. None of us. > Everyone is influenced by something. Every designer builds on the work of those who > came before. So is the way of the world. > > If a designer has secured the proper patents, trademarks, etc. and someone > rips him off for commercial gain, then by all means go after them to protect > your interests. Otherwise, consider it a compliment or an insult, but you take > your lumps and move on. > > I for one see nothing wrong (and no harm done) if someone wants to copy an > existing design and build it as their own personal boat, for their own > personal use. > > Anything else would be about like a songwriter expecting a royalty check > every time someone picks up a guitar and plays a tune in their own living room > for the enjoyment of family and friends. Not gonna happen. Nor should it. > > -MC > > > > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13914|13765|2007-07-16 20:00:11|brentswain38|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|All studies done on the BC coast have shown the effect of boater sewage to be so small as to be unmeasureable, except in a tiny number of anchorages for two months a year.Allowing politicoes to use yachties as scapegoats to distract public attention from real sources of trouble is environmentally irresponsible. Doctors tell me that the only way hepatitus and other human born pathogens in seafood affect humans is when the are so stupid as to fail to cook them adequately. The Frenck like their steaks almost raw and thus have 30 times the world average in food poisoning. So should they blame the farmer? Salmonella cases go up drastically at xmas when people foolishly use raw eggs to make their own egnog. No amount of govt regulation will save people from their own stupidity. No amount of political scapegoating will solve environmental problems. Allowing scapregoat politics to weaken public resolve to deal with real environmental threats will only strenghthen those threats and thus worsen the problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > > three m iles. > > Around the corner on the channel from my place there's a big fish farm, well over a mile > away. Funnily enough, they like your logic all too well. > > The pity is, there's a tidal gyre that sweeps their effluent into the bay where it forms a > wonderful nutrient broth. Result - rotting algal slime in late spring. Tory logic - dump > your wastes into the public waterways and let someone else worry about it. > > I could give lots of other examples of where pathogens from human waste have been > concentrated in shellfish which have then infected people eating them with hepatitis and > various other viral diseases, but there's little point. This is all well known. > > The big polluters are cities and the like and they should clean up their act first, but that > doesn't mean that smaller sources shouldn't also do what they reasonably can. On the > Barrier Reef nowadays, inside most/all of the park areas, direct discharge heads are > prohibited and the fines are quite heavy. Ditto Sydney harbour, Broken Bay and most other > places on the NSW coast. Too many people in the popular spots. > > PDW > | 13915|13880|2007-07-16 20:00:30|Paul Liebenberg|Re: hull shape|Greg, why 3 keels? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13916|13888|2007-07-16 20:01:16|brentswain38|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Your sizes are right . Use stainless for the small amount you will use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi all, > > What is the preferred size, material and finish inside and outside of > the diesel tank filler and breather pipes to twin keel diesel tanks? I > am thinking of using 1½" bore mild steel tube for the filler and ½" > bore mild steel tube for the breather, but am concerned about rust on > the inside of the pipe. What is the preffered method for the cap on > the filler. I am concerned that if I use a mild steel pipe threaded > cap on the filler that it will seize or bleed rust. I am thinking on > using copper pipe for the supply and return to the engine with flexible > connectors to the engine. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 13917|13917|2007-07-17 04:21:01|Charles & Ileen Bugeja|Fw: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat|I sure would like some imput on the letter below. I was hoping that Brent will deffintly have something to say if he is not sailing.Thanks to all for any input. ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles & Ileen Bugeja To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat I want to thank you for your time Brent, I would like to build a small coastal cruiser that can be trailerable and I was hoping that if I take about 20% of the size and use12gauge on the bottom plate and14gauge on top,that might bring me around 3500lbs if not less.I only want to go from Florida to the Bahamas,plus do some island hoping in good weather.I see a lot of smaller boats doing this trip,and compared to those little wood and epoxy sharpies, this will be a bloody tank.I hope that you did not misunderstood me and thought that I will be doing some long passages.I live in Manitoba Canada,and all I want now that I have retired is to get away from our cold long winters.If a small boat that doesn't take to long to build,will be able to take me and the misses away for the winter months and get us safely there and back, we will be very happy.I do have a 10 hp outboard that I thought would be ok for this boat,and I also have a 20' car hauler that should make this package complete or so I think.hat do you think Brent? Do you think that this should work? In Europe they have been building steel boats between 6.5 to 8 meters,and they use 3mm on the bottom and 2mm on top.They go from Spain to England and all over, so that is why I figured that maybe we could go that route.Thanks again for taking the time to read my mail and I'll be looking forward to hear from you. Charles. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat 26 ft overall, sloop rigged 8 ft beam ,twin keeler 3 ft draft, 6700 lbs empty, ten guage topside plates 3/16th bottom plate , takes a standard soling mainsail. Plans $200. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" wrote: > > I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less work > than Farmer's 23 footer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the > Duckworks Magazine. > > > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't suppose it > would take the likes of this group much to change her over to orgami > and bilge keels....Hmn. > > > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double > ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design modifications > to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on Ganley > and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > > > Jim Douglas > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 28/06/2007 5:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 03/07/2007 10:02 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.6/900 - Release Date: 14/07/2007 3:36 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13918|13765|2007-07-17 04:21:18|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|My exspereance is that the government goes after the small problems because they are least able to fight back. This way they feal they are doing good with little or no conflict. Newest studies of Mars show it is worming at the same rate as the Earth with out all the poluters. Makes you wounder if it is another no real sciance attempt by enviromentalists like when we used to remove logs from streams and hurt the Salmon populations. No one got it more wrong then Alvin Gore and the Hollywood tipes that droped out of school. We do more harm when we act on misrepresented and twisted facts then do nothing. Clorinate your fetalizer then dump. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > All studies done on the BC coast have shown the effect of boater > sewage to be so small as to be unmeasureable, except in a tiny number > of anchorages for two months a year.Allowing politicoes to use > yachties as scapegoats to distract public attention from real sources > of trouble is environmentally irresponsible. > Doctors tell me that the only way hepatitus and other human born > pathogens in seafood affect humans is when the are so stupid as to > fail to cook them adequately. > The Frenck like their steaks almost raw and thus have 30 times the > world average in food poisoning. So should they blame the farmer? > Salmonella cases go up drastically at xmas when people foolishly use > raw eggs to make their own egnog. > No amount of govt regulation will save people from their own stupidity. > No amount of political scapegoating will solve environmental > problems. Allowing scapregoat politics to weaken public resolve to > deal with real environmental threats will only strenghthen those > threats and thus worsen the problem. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > > > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > > > three m iles. > > > > Around the corner on the channel from my place there's a big fish > farm, well over a mile > > away. Funnily enough, they like your logic all too well. > > > > The pity is, there's a tidal gyre that sweeps their effluent into > the bay where it forms a > > wonderful nutrient broth. Result - rotting algal slime in late > spring. Tory logic - dump > > your wastes into the public waterways and let someone else worry > about it. > > > > I could give lots of other examples of where pathogens from human > waste have been > > concentrated in shellfish which have then infected people eating > them with hepatitis and > > various other viral diseases, but there's little point. This is all > well known. > > > > The big polluters are cities and the like and they should clean up > their act first, but that > > doesn't mean that smaller sources shouldn't also do what they > reasonably can. On the > > Barrier Reef nowadays, inside most/all of the park areas, direct > discharge heads are > > prohibited and the fines are quite heavy. Ditto Sydney harbour, > Broken Bay and most other > > places on the NSW coast. Too many people in the popular spots. > > > > PDW > > > | 13919|13765|2007-07-19 16:03:38|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sewage Holding Tank|Brent, I take your point, but there are areas where the sailing is a lot more crowded. Seeing toilet paper bunting on ones anchor rode and a flottila of eaten but undigested sweet corn sailing out on the ebb takes the gloss off an early morning swim especially if one doesn't eat sweet corn. Regards, Ted In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > All studies done on the BC coast have shown the effect of boater > sewage to be so small as to be unmeasureable, except in a tiny number > of anchorages for two months a year.Allowing politicoes to use > yachties as scapegoats to distract public attention from real sources > of trouble is environmentally irresponsible. > Doctors tell me that the only way hepatitus and other human born > pathogens in seafood affect humans is when the are so stupid as to > fail to cook them adequately. > The Frenck like their steaks almost raw and thus have 30 times the > world average in food poisoning. So should they blame the farmer? > Salmonella cases go up drastically at xmas when people foolishly use > raw eggs to make their own egnog. > No amount of govt regulation will save people from their own stupidity. > No amount of political scapegoating will solve environmental > problems. Allowing scapregoat politics to weaken public resolve to > deal with real environmental threats will only strenghthen those > threats and thus worsen the problem. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Tory proposed BC regs call for no discharge closer that three miles > > > offshore. I've yet to see anyone swimming 1/4 mile offshore let alone > > > three m iles. > > > > Around the corner on the channel from my place there's a big fish > farm, well over a mile > > away. Funnily enough, they like your logic all too well. > > > > The pity is, there's a tidal gyre that sweeps their effluent into > the bay where it forms a > > wonderful nutrient broth. Result - rotting algal slime in late > spring. Tory logic - dump > > your wastes into the public waterways and let someone else worry > about it. > > > > I could give lots of other examples of where pathogens from human > waste have been > > concentrated in shellfish which have then infected people eating > them with hepatitis and > > various other viral diseases, but there's little point. This is all > well known. > > > > The big polluters are cities and the like and they should clean up > their act first, but that > > doesn't mean that smaller sources shouldn't also do what they > reasonably can. On the > > Barrier Reef nowadays, inside most/all of the park areas, direct > discharge heads are > > prohibited and the fines are quite heavy. Ditto Sydney harbour, > Broken Bay and most other > > places on the NSW coast. Too many people in the popular spots. > > > > PDW > > > | 13920|13920|2007-07-19 16:04:15|Ray|O/T - steel boat hull (not origami) FS in Baltimore, MD|Not mine - no affiliation whatsoever - just saw it on eBay and thought I'd share the info w/this group. Look up auction # 160137333846 36' steel boat, 11' beam - supposed to have been built in 1980, and abandoned @ a marina. No engine, rigging, interior - starting bid $250.| 13921|13921|2007-07-19 16:05:00|drddias|marine grade steel|Sorry, Brent, others, would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). What steel do you use in that thikness I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? Thank you eduardo| 13922|13880|2007-07-19 16:06:20|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|It is posssible to put a fantail stern on one, but when working with a relatively heavy material the key to keeping the length- weight ratio down is to minimise overhangs and maximise waterline length. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - > they tend > > to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual > chines" > > you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of > > classic forms. > > Can you think of a way to put a fantail stern on one? I've always > wondered if that were possible. > | 13923|13892|2007-07-19 16:08:53|brentswain38|Re: Exhaust water pump|I'm always amazed to see cooling pipes welded on the outside of steel boats wher drag is maximised and they are extremely difficult to clean. It's just as easy to weld them on the inside of the plate , slightly larger to increase the surface area. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 06:37:26PM -0000, Gary wrote: > > 2nd summer for my raw water intake pump to fail leaking at the shaft > > again for rebuilt pump. > > > > The guy that rebuilt my YanMar 3 GM 27hp said he could solve this by > > using the skeg as cooling for both the engine and exhaust. > > > > If this is ok I am wondering why in the heck would you use a raw water > > intake through hull. Why not just use the skeg for both engine cooling > > and raw water intake in the first place. Are there any drawbacks to > > this option? I am aware of the "dry exhaust" option but am wondering > > about why all the fuss...just use the skeg cooling for both? > > I've got a keel cooler on "Ulysses", and like it a lot. My bilges (I > have a single "modified full" keel) are separated into four large > sections - forward, main, engine, and aft - by bulkheads, and the engine > bilge has a plate welded into it about a foot above the bottom. There > are two pipes going down into this "box"; the engine water circulates > through it, and is cooled by the surrounding sea water. > > Pluses: no worries about corrosion, the engine anodes have not shown any > wear or deterioration in 7 years, no need to fiddle with raw water > filters or worry about algae growth in the system, no pump wear due to > sediment, etc. > > Minuses: if I let the bottom get really, really foul, I lose most of my > cooling ability. The obvious solution, of course, is "don't do that, > then!" :) Besides, my folding prop would become useless well before that > point... Frankly, I have to think really hard to come up with even that > much. > > As far as I'm concerned, steel boats and keel coolers are "a match made > in heaven". > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 13924|13888|2007-07-19 16:11:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel filler pipes and caps|Hi Brent, This is mostly a repost in case you missed the last one. What sort and size of pipe do you use to go to the keel tanks from the cockpit filler? It is quite a long run horizontally and I have twin keels with tanks in them. I thought about fillers in the cockpit as I think that is the handiest place for them, but was put off with the long pipe work. How do you cap the pipe? Any info on your fuel set up, breathers, filters, engine supply pipes, level gauges etc, will be gratefully received. Regards, Ted| 13925|13880|2007-07-19 16:14:03|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government refund. With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble cramming itself between all that obstruction. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13926|13917|2007-07-19 16:15:47|brentswain38|Fw: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat|Yes,it probably would work. Keep a close eye on your weight calculations. I used 12 guage for my decks. You have to be very careful to control distortion. With 14 guage oilcaning would be unavoidable. Using a brake press as much a spossibler to minimise welding on corners could reduce distortion.I wouldn't want to cruise the Caribean with a boat that couldnt take being caught out in a gale for a couple of days . Thus it would have to sail, motors break down and some times leave people adrift at sea for months at a time. My 26 foter would be a good choice . It is 6700 lbs empty, but capable of long ocean voyages, and totally safe at sea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" wrote: > > I sure would like some imput on the letter below. I was hoping that Brent will deffintly have something to say if he is not sailing.Thanks to all for any input. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles & Ileen Bugeja > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > I want to thank you for your time Brent, I would like to build a small coastal cruiser that can be trailerable and I was hoping that if I take about 20% of the size and use12gauge on the bottom plate and14gauge on top,that might bring me around 3500lbs if not less.I only want to go from Florida to the Bahamas,plus do some island hoping in good weather.I see a lot of smaller boats doing this trip,and compared to those little wood and epoxy sharpies, this will be a bloody tank.I hope that you did not misunderstood me and thought that I will be doing some long passages.I live in Manitoba Canada,and all I want now that I have retired is to get away from our cold long winters.If a small boat that doesn't take to long to build,will be able to take me and the misses away for the winter months and get us safely there and back, we will be very happy.I do have a 10 hp outboard that I thought would be ok for this boat,and I also have a 20' car hauler that should make this package complete or so I think.hat do you think Brent? Do you think that this should work? In Europe they have been building steel boats between 6.5 to 8 meters,and they use 3mm on the bottom and 2mm on top.They go from Spain to England and all over, so that is why I figured that maybe we could go that route.Thanks again for taking the time to read my mail and I'll be looking forward to hear from you. > Charles. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > 26 ft overall, sloop rigged 8 ft beam ,twin keeler 3 ft draft, 6700 > lbs empty, ten guage topside plates 3/16th bottom plate , takes a > standard soling mainsail. Plans $200. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Ileen Bugeja" > wrote: > > > > I got your reply about the 26' steel sailboat. I would like some > info as to the weight and is the beam no more then 8.5' so it can be > trailerable.Any info would be gladly appreciated so may be I can get > on this project.Thanks for your time.Charles > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:41 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Small Steel Sailboat > > > > > > The smallest I design is the 26 footer,which would be far less > work > > than Farmer's 23 footer. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Alex, > > > > > > Checkout Weston Farmer's 23 foot Steel Cherub design in the > > Duckworks Magazine. > > > > > > While designed as a single chined boat with keel, I don't > suppose it > > would take the likes of this group much to change her over to > orgami > > and bilge keels....Hmn. > > > > > > Also there is Denis Ganley's 25 foot steel Hitch Hiker, a double > > ended design that Fair Metal Boats was offering design > modifications > > to include bilge keels plus junk rig...... I can't get much on > Ganley > > and his designs on the net at the moment though. > > > > > > Jim Douglas > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: > 28/06/2007 5:57 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 03/07/2007 10:02 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.6/900 - Release Date: 14/07/2007 3:36 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13927|13880|2007-07-19 17:59:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|We typically let the customer choose the keel configuration. If you are referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a girder to support the hull and protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for roll damping and to allow the boat to self-stand. http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_paradigm.html Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government refund. With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble cramming itself between all that obstruction. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13928|13928|2007-07-22 02:45:48|neptunes_tales|Epoxy on galvanized steel?|For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip galvanized. To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and in a couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglass. QUESTIONS: 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? 2. Is special surface preparation needed? 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? THANKS!| 13929|13880|2007-07-22 02:46:59|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and those are powerboat foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call them 'keels' LOL. In any event, I must be missing something, how does that translate to a sub 40 footer? :) Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you 11 or 12 knots? what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom appears to be essentially flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in varying conditions, would be interesting to see how she rides. Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? I've been in a few storms that would threaten the integrity of such large amounts of glass.. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > We typically let the customer choose the keel configuration. If you are > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a girder to support the hull and > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for roll damping and to allow > the boat to self-stand. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never > seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government refund. > With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between > them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost > impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble > cramming itself between all that obstruction. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13930|13921|2007-07-22 02:47:07|mauro gonzaga|Re: marine grade steel|Common carbon steel for boiler and pressure vessels construcction e.g ASTM A 516 Gr.60 or 70 (60 or 70 Kpsi of ultimate tensile strength) is widely used from hot rolled coils, derolled and cut to length. Very well weldable. Galvanize steel plate should be riveted since welding destroys galvanizing. Better to use black steel and shot or sand blast to white metal and paint with a base of inorganic zink epoxy paint. Mauro drddias wrote: Sorry, Brent, others, would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). What steel do you use in that thikness I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? Thank you eduardo --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13931|13931|2007-07-22 02:47:30|peterharrett|Great boat paint|If you are looking a great boat paint, please consider our Top Secret's TS-100 1 Part Epoxy. It comes in over 200 colors. This easy to use marine product replaces hard to use multiple component epoxy and urethanes in marine applications. Its' a one of a kind, super- premium marine top coating that is excellent for use on vessel hulls, decks, masts, in the cabin, engine room and on marine infrastructure. If you have any questions please call me at 360-651-9050 or go to our website at http://www.topsecretcoatings.com Sincerely, Peter Harrett Top Secret Coatings info@...| 13932|13892|2007-07-22 02:47:46|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Exhaust water pump|Surely if you're going to cool your exhaust then the thing to do would be to run it through a calorifier and get your hot water for nothing - or,to hark back to another topic,use it to dry off the sewage.I've been having vague thoughts about a detachable pan which could be plugged into the exhaust line for the purpose cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13933|13933|2007-07-26 03:55:59|khooper_fboats|Spray Foam Cheap|If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under 25c per board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing prices for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board foot so that seems like a very good deal. http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something like a small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in there, and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some sort of inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works and whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla scavenger sort of way? Ken| 13934|13931|2007-07-26 03:55:59|Gordon Schnell|Re: Great boat paint|People who frequent this site are builders. I doubt that I am not speaking for most on this site when I say; "We are very interested in products that "don't break the bank". We are also looking for paint that will serve long and well." When it comes to painting my steel hull, I'm afraid I will need more proof than a website. What do you have in the way of test results and feedback from marine builders who are already using your product. Gord peterharrett wrote: > > If you are looking a great boat paint, please consider our Top > Secret's TS-100 1 Part Epoxy. It comes in over 200 colors. This easy > to use marine product replaces hard to use multiple component epoxy > and urethanes in marine applications. Its' a one of a kind, super- > premium marine top coating that is excellent for use on vessel hulls, > decks, masts, in the cabin, engine room and on marine > infrastructure. > > If you have any questions please call me at 360-651-9050 or go to our > website at http://www.topsecretcoatings.com > > > Sincerely, > > Peter Harrett > Top Secret Coatings > info@... > > | 13935|13880|2007-07-26 03:55:59|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|I wouldn't design anything that I don't believe will sail well, no matter how much the customer demands it. I send those customers to Greg. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > We typically let the customer choose the keel configuration. If you are > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a girder to support the hull and > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for roll damping and to allow > the boat to self-stand. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never > seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government refund. > With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between > them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost > impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble > cramming itself between all that obstruction. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13936|13928|2007-07-26 03:55:59|Aaron Williams|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|I would even consider powder coating if there is someone in your area that knows how to do it without removing the galve coat. I do small powder coating parts for myself and the coating is almost imposible to remove with a small blast cabinet. Aaron neptunes_tales wrote: For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip galvanized. To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and in a couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglas QUESTIONS: 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? 2. Is special surface preparation needed? 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? THANKS! --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13937|13892|2007-07-26 03:56:00|sae140|Re: Exhaust water pump|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Surely if you're going to cool your exhaust then the > thing to do would be to run it through a calorifier > and get your hot water for nothing - or,to hark back > to another topic,use it to dry off the sewage.I've > been having vague thoughts about a detachable pan > which could be plugged into the exhaust line for the > purpose > cheers > andy airey > It occurs to me that you need to be really careful when heating up sewage, to ensure that you take it 'all the way' to dryness. Anything less would effectively turn your device into a most efficient incubator of pathogenic organisms. Colin| 13938|13928|2007-07-26 03:56:01|mark hamill|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|Years ago I was told To etch the surface with muriatic acid available in paint stores, wear rubber gloves, eye protection and don't breath the fumes. Later I was told White Vinegar works as well. Check with your paint dealer for paints that may be more resistant to chipping than epoxy. I see "Galvanized Paint" used to repair damage to railings caused by welding repair for example. I didn't bother to paint my galvanized fittings and after 12 years there is no sign of deterioration although I have been told it lasts about 15 years. I found this googling "paint galvanized metal" http://www.scottpaint.com/files/ta/SOLUTIONS%20WEB%20Painting%20New% 20Galvanized%20Metal.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "neptunes_tales" wrote: > > For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel > (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip galvanized. > > To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) > and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and in a > couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglass. > > QUESTIONS: > > 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? > > 2. Is special surface preparation needed? > > 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? > > THANKS! > | 13939|13939|2007-07-26 03:56:04|jnikadie|Practical Sailor ... almost an ad for Brent Boats|From the latest Practical Sailor's advertising email (almost could have been written by Brent): "The August issue of Practical Sailor, now available online at www.practical-sailor.com takes a good, hard look at some boats you're unlikely to see in any brochure. They are literally wrecks, heaped up in the wake of some East Coast storms. The report and photos that accompany it reminds us that although fiber reinforced plastic (FRP) has many redeeming qualities, either from the perspective of a builder or an owner, it is by no means the perfect material for boat construction. It is no great revelation to say that an FRP hull is particularly vulnerable to point loading from collisions with rocks, reefs, and seawalls, but judging from the advertising pap that surfaces now and then, you'd think some FRP hulls were made of titanium. My favorite ads are the ones that show some fiberglass boat high and dry on a shore somewhere. The eye-catching photo is usually accompanied by some first-person account attributed to the owner, who tells us how happy he is that his (insert miracle brand here) was able to survive such dire circumstances. The implicit message is that this boat pounded on the shoreline for several hours (or days) and that any other hull would surely have been smashed to smithereens. "Several things I like about these ads. The nature of the shoreline and the duration of the pounding are usually pretty vague. Two, the owner barely mentions what put him on the beach in the first place. Three, there is no mention of the compensation that the owner was given for his encomium. Spelling out these details, however, would spoil everything, since I find it great sport in imagining what actually might have happened. "All kinds of fantastic scenarios run through my mind. Here's my favorite: "Less-than-perfect glasswork by an underpaid plant worker results in a poorly reinforced bow roller that was under-engineered to start with. The bow roller promptly yanks loose in a storm that could have been avoided had the owner headed for a hurricane hole, instead of trying to outguess the weather forecasters. The seas start kicking up, the broken anchor roller chafes through the unprotected nylon rode, and the boat flops onto a sandy beach at low tide. When the waves subside, the boat-through great effort-is refloated and found to be in pretty good shape considering the circumstances. The owner still faces substantial losses, electronics that got soaked, salvage costs, etc., and then of course there's that broken anchor roller. He loudly complains to the builder about the grief the anchor roller caused him, and the company seizes the opportunity to make some lemonade. They offer to fix the boat and help replenish the owner's cruising kitty, and in exchange, he says only nice things about the boat and relinquishes all rights to the photos he took-some of which later appear in spectacular ads touting the hull's formidable construction. (The other, less flattering shots are hustled off to the marine equivalent of Area 51, never to be seen again.) "Yes, some fiberglass boats are built better than others. And some makers do a better job reinforcing the key areas where high loads concentrate underway, at anchor, or when the boat runs aground or bangs into something hard. But I'm extremely doubtful that any FRP production boat built today will emerge unharmed after being driven violently ashore onto anything but the softest of terra firma. It's a hell of a lot easier to seek safe refuge (or even haul out), double up on chafing gear and mooring lines, and strip all canvas, than it is to find an FRP hull that will forgive us for our negligence. "When you have your headquarters and three small test boats in Florida, you tend to fret about these things each August, as hurricane season hits full stride."| 13940|13880|2007-07-26 03:56:08|huub35|Re: hull shape|Greg, I have tried to find more info on the "virtual chines" you mentioned below, but unfortunately I fail to grasp the concept. Could you please explain a little, how I should visualize thise chines, and how one uses these to control the shape. Thanks a lot in advance, Huub --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Look at the underwater share of the G55 and an example of how underwater > shape can be controlled. Especially look at the bow and stern. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/boats/Genoa55/genoa55.htm > > What most designers have missed is the concept of "virtual chines". Add > "imaginary" chines past the ends of the boat. Use these to alter the shape > of the bows and the stern underwater, just as the real chines alter the > shape of the mid-section. > > The result is that you can replace the spoon bow with a raked, or even plumb > bow. You can increase the waterline to increase hull speed. You can move > flotation lower and towards the bows to reduce pitching. You can increase > the useable space inside the hull in relation to overall length. > > Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - they tend > to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual chines" > you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of > classic forms. > > There is considerable room to optimize the shape of origami hulls for > different needs. By concentrating on the past we limit origami. I don't > see how it makes the slightest difference that the Wright Bros built the > first airplane, except that someone had to build the first one before anyone > could improve on it. > > However, I'm pretty sure that if we limited ourselves to only building > airplanes that looked the Wright Flyer, there would be a lot less airplanes > built. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:35 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: WHO CARES! > > > In my opinion, all origami hulls tend to finish up with a similar > underwater shape, and so you could do a lot worse that consider a > stock Swain 40ft design, and simply install a schooner rig. There is > at least one schooner junk rig of that size (Bella Via). > | 13941|13928|2007-07-26 03:56:14|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|I washed my galvanised decks with TSP, then vinegar, then waterand let them dry thoroughly, immediately before epoxy. Stuck like shit to a goose, for the last 23 years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "neptunes_tales" wrote: > > For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel > (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip galvanized. > > To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) > and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and in a > couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglass. > > QUESTIONS: > > 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? > > 2. Is special surface preparation needed? > > 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? > > THANKS! > | 13942|13928|2007-07-26 03:56:16|Harrett Peter|Epoxy on galvanized steel?|Galvanized is about as hard to coat surface as there is. If you go by the book you will need to use a pre-wash primer then an etching primer. Top Secret Coatings has both readily available to the public. The pre-wash primer is TS-117 Prewash Primer and the etching primer is the TS 664 Fiberglass & Aluminum Primer. Both are government spec products. You could go without the TS 117 Prewash Primer because the TS 664 is an etching primer. It is our best selling primer by a long shot. It is sandable in one hour and sticks like there's no tomorrow. Its also unusually flexible which is critical for substrates such as aluminum and stainless. The Prewash Primer must be sprayed. All it needs is a fog coat. It has chromates in it so be careful to use a good respirator. Coating galvanized and other hard to coat substrates such as aluminum, copper and bronze successfully is basically the same drill, prewash primer, follow up with an etching primer then you can move forward with your top coats. Solvent based epoxy is well liked because it has the highest possible adhesion rating, excellent chemical resistance, its submerssible and its tough but there are problems with it. It is completely inflexible, won’t take heat past 140F and chalks, discolors and looses its gloss way too fast. Two component urethane is a big improvement over epoxy. Two component urethanes are colorfast, gloss retentive and have better heat and flexibility than two component epoxies. The biggest down side with them are the cost, two component mixing and the icocynate health hazard. Good alkyds are also a good option but I don’t want to take all day to get to the point here. We have a cool and unusual product I would like to suggest. It is Top Secret Coatings 1 Part Epoxy. If there is such a thing as an alternative to paint this is it. It is a silicone based mono-epoxy with alkyd and urethane in it making it a hybrid blend. We came up with this product because of the problems associated with two component epoxy and urethanes. 1 Part Epoxy retains the desirable aspects of two component epoxy and urethane without the mixing. Like typical epoxy it has the highest possible adhesion rating, its waterproof and has excellent chemical resistance. It is tremendously flexible and hard making it durable. It takes heat to 400F, impacts to 500PSI and won’t crack, peel or chalk. It is a high performance, low build coating so it goes on much thinner than paint. In fact it will cover white with black at only 1 mil which is unheard of. A sheet of paper is 4 mils. We’ve seen people get well over 800 sq ft out of one gallon because it covers so well. That makes it very economical to use. Since it is so flexible, has such good adhesion and low film build it can be applied direct to almost any surface including fiberglass, aluminum, copper, composites, plastic, steel, ceramics even vinyl sheet goods! I hope this information is useful. See us on the web at www.topsecretcoatings.com Sincerely, Peter Harrett, Sales Manager Top Secret Coatings Inc. Sincerely, Peter Harrett, The Wildcat Conservancy www.bobcatandlynx.com WildLife Whole Prey Pet Foods www.wildlifepetfoods.com TOP SECRET COATINGS www.topsecretcoatings.com| 13943|13943|2007-07-26 03:56:19|Jonathan Stevens|Galvanizing|Got my winch, bollards and rudder fittings back from the galvanizers today. I used British Metal Treatments Battery Road Great Yarmouth. They have a minimum order of £60; I paid £70. My bits and pieces weighed 106kilos. I fear zinc is going up in price as fast as stainless and copper etc. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13944|13921|2007-07-26 03:56:23|brentswain38|Re: marine grade steel|I used 12 guage galvanised for my decks. I wouldn't do it for wages, but for my own boat it was a one off. Works great. Wash it with vinegar to remove oxides, then water, and let it dry before painting.Welds well with 6011 or 7024, not so good with wire feed welders. What size boat are you building? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Sorry, Brent, others, > would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. > Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). > What steel do you use in that thikness > I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, > Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? > Thank you > eduardo > | 13945|13892|2007-07-26 03:56:48|brentswain38|Re: Exhaust water pump|Engine water heats a tank for hot water better and it has an upper temperature limit.No worries about exhuast leaks either, and it works with a dry exhuast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Surely if you're going to cool your exhaust then the > thing to do would be to run it through a calorifier > and get your hot water for nothing - or,to hark back > to another topic,use it to dry off the sewage.I've > been having vague thoughts about a detachable pan > which could be plugged into the exhaust line for the > purpose > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 13946|13928|2007-07-26 03:56:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 06:21:56PM -0000, neptunes_tales wrote: > For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel > (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip galvanized. > > To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) > and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and in a > couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglass. > > QUESTIONS: > > 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? > > 2. Is special surface preparation needed? > > 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? > > THANKS! I can tell you from current personal experience that using fiberglass over steel will result in huge amounts of rust - fast - and there's no way to stop it or prevent it that I know of. The previous owner of "Ulysses" was a fiberglass specialist, and everywhere that he saw rust, he glassed it over (oh, he ground off the rust, painted the steel, etc.) The problem is that fiberglass and steel don't expand or contract at the same rate; as a result, they eventually (in short order, actually) separate from each other. Then, the cracks between the two materials - and the fiberglass itself - retain water; as a result, everything rusts out in record time. I've just finished cutting out and replacing the 3 square feet of foredeck around the windlass that had been treated that way. The only "pre-fiberglassed" crap that remains to be handled are the cockpit lockers and the sill between the cockpit and the main saloon. The latter won't be too hard, but the former is a bloody nightmare. I've already got about 15 hours of chipping and welding and cutting and grinding into just the port-side locker; probably about 6 more hours to go before I can actually patch the damn thing and put a lid on it. The starboard one isn't quite as badly damaged, so it'll probably only take 15 hours total. (After I finish that, I still have to finish the stanchions - and this will, fortunately, be the *last* major repair that is necessary aboard Ulysses - hurrah! :) After this, it's all small maintenance, chipping and painting on occasion.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13947|13921|2007-07-26 03:56:55|brentswain38|Re: marine grade steel|Common mild steel( A 36) is more than adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Common carbon steel for boiler and pressure vessels construcction e.g ASTM A 516 Gr.60 or 70 (60 or 70 Kpsi of ultimate tensile strength) is widely used from hot rolled coils, derolled and cut to length. Very well weldable. Galvanize steel plate should be riveted since welding destroys galvanizing. Better to use black steel and shot or sand blast to white metal and paint with a base of inorganic zink epoxy paint. Mauro > > drddias wrote: Sorry, Brent, others, > would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. > Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). > What steel do you use in that thikness > I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, > Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? > Thank you > eduardo > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Building a website is a piece of cake. > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13948|13880|2007-07-26 03:56:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|Dashew among others makes a very good case for why offshore boats should be long and lean. For example: 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed is very helpful to out-run bad weather and other dangers. 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, not length. 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the length of a hull than athwart ships. 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long lean boats, because they are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where the frames are installed on the flat. So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement boats, they will have equal capacity, cost about the same to build, but the longer one will be faster on the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short boats make sense at a dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or offshore. At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small weight penalty as compare to alternative materials. However, as you shrink the design, steel starts adding a weight penalty because you need to keep the material thick to avoid buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to weight problems, requiring the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, ballast, engine, sails, rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of these add costs, reducing the economy of steel. The shorter the boat, the greater the weight penalty when building in steel, the more economical it becomes to select other materials. For example, at 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It would be near impossible to build in steel to a similar strength, without significantly increasing the weight and costs, and cutting performance, capacity and stability. A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull speed of 9+ knots. The offshore performance hulls such as the French have pioneered can likely be done in origami without any chines. Off the wind they will go even faster. To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense for offshore. Build a long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but much longer, it will cost about the same to build, the interior will be easier to fit everything into, and the hull speed will go up, along with the directional stability. Add a twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all around. Simple to adjust sail, none of the sails are too large for one person to manage. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and those are powerboat foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call them 'keels' LOL. In any event, I must be missing something, how does that translate to a sub 40 footer? :) Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you 11 or 12 knots? what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom appears to be essentially flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in varying conditions, would be interesting to see how she rides. Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? I've been in a few storms that would threaten the integrity of such large amounts of glass.. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > We typically let the customer choose the keel configuration. If you are > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a girder to support the hull and > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for roll damping and to allow > the boat to self-stand. > > http://www.origamim agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > http://www.setsail com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:31 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never > seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government refund. > With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between > them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost > impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble > cramming itself between all that obstruction. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13949|13949|2007-07-26 03:57:09|Jonathan Stevens|6011 Rods from New Zealand|I've got an uncle in NZ and would like him to send me some 6011 rods. Any manufacturer or other code that I should tell him please? Jonathan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13950|13931|2007-07-26 03:58:32|brentswain38|Re: Great boat paint|Epoxys , while making great buildup coats is an abysmally poor choice for finish coats as it chalks rapidly in the tropics, or any UV exposure. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peterharrett" wrote: > > If you are looking a great boat paint, please consider our Top > Secret's TS-100 1 Part Epoxy. It comes in over 200 colors. This easy > to use marine product replaces hard to use multiple component epoxy > and urethanes in marine applications. Its' a one of a kind, super- > premium marine top coating that is excellent for use on vessel hulls, > decks, masts, in the cabin, engine room and on marine > infrastructure. > > If you have any questions please call me at 360-651-9050 or go to our > website at http://www.topsecretcoatings.com > > > Sincerely, > > Peter Harrett > Top Secret Coatings > info@... > | 13951|13949|2007-07-27 13:11:05|Paul J. Thompson|Re: 6011 Rods from New Zealand|Hi Jonathan, There is only one manufacturia who does 6011 in New Zealand. That is WELDWELL. There code is not the standard code 6011 is PH31A 6010 is PH6010. They have website site that is not bad at all see http://www.weldwell.co.nz/ I sent Colin some 6011 rods a few weeks ago but he has not yet let me know how his trail went. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jonathan Stevens wrote: > I've got an uncle in NZ and would like him to send me some 6011 rods. Any > manufacturer or other code that I should tell him please? > > > > Jonathan > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 13952|13933|2007-07-27 13:11:30|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with out the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective and safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is realy missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be had for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under 25c per > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing prices > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board foot so > that seems like a very good deal. > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something like a > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in there, > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some sort of > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works and > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla scavenger > sort of way? > > Ken > | 13953|13928|2007-07-27 13:11:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:40PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > Years ago I was told To etch the surface with muriatic acid available > in paint stores, wear rubber gloves, eye protection and don't breath > the fumes. Later I was told White Vinegar works as well. Muriatic acid will dull stainless very quickly (i.e., it will turn a polished surface into something with a little roughness or "tooth" to it); vinegar won't. I realize you're not talking about stainless, but it's really visible there, and I'm pretty sure that the same thing happens on mild steel. > Check with > your paint dealer for paints that may be more resistant to chipping > than epoxy. I see "Galvanized Paint" used to repair damage to > railings caused by welding repair for example. I've never found any of the versions of "galvanizing paint" that I've tried - and I've tried a number of them - to be worth a damn. A good primer (I've come to _really_ like Corroseal) right after grinding, several coats of epoxy on top of that, and a good top coat (take your pick, there's lots of good ones) seems to be the only thing that works. I think I've tried every other possible option by now, trying to save myself unnecessary work... there's *no* unnecessary work in the above formula. (There is, however, a huge amount of unnecessary work in doing it every other way that I've tried - 'cause I've had to do every single one of those over.) > I didn't bother to > paint my galvanized fittings and after 12 years there is no sign of > deterioration although I have been told it lasts about 15 years. That's a good recommendation, one I've heard several times. Galvanized is what I'm going to go with next time I do any deck fittings. Aluminium, by the way, is one of the _worst_ materials for deck fittings unless you keep all the tolerances very loose: as it oxidizes, it chalks - and expands, jamming everything and locking things in place. The next time you need to take something loose, it's an hour's work with a crowbar, a hammer, and WD-40... Steel rust is wonderful stuff, by comparison. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 13954|13880|2007-07-27 13:14:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|Build a 1/2 hull with a chine amidships, one forward, one aft, all along the same longitudinal. Look at the changes you can make to the shape of the hull as compared to a single chine amidships. Rather than the hull sections flattening towards the ends, you can increase the section curvature at the ends, giving almost infinite control over the hull shape. Now, draw the hull itself, just inside the fwd and aft chines, so that these are "cut-off" when the two halves are joined. The resulting pattern will fold correctly to the designed shape. When folding the hull, control the shape via the welding schedule, to simulate these chines without having to build them. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of huub35 Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 3:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Greg, I have tried to find more info on the "virtual chines" you mentioned below, but unfortunately I fail to grasp the concept. Could you please explain a little, how I should visualize thise chines, and how one uses these to control the shape. Thanks a lot in advance, Huub --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Look at the underwater share of the G55 and an example of how underwater > shape can be controlled. Especially look at the bow and stern. > > http://www.origamim agic.com/boats/Genoa55/genoa55.htm > > What most designers have missed is the concept of "virtual chines". Add > "imaginary" chines past the ends of the boat. Use these to alter the shape > of the bows and the stern underwater, just as the real chines alter the > shape of the mid-section. > > The result is that you can replace the spoon bow with a raked, or even plumb > bow. You can increase the waterline to increase hull speed. You can move > flotation lower and towards the bows to reduce pitching. You can increase > the useable space inside the hull in relation to overall length. > > Classic origami is good for building hulls along classic lines - they tend > to all look very similar underwater. However, if you add "virtual chines" > you can get great looking modern hulls forms as well as a wide range of > classic forms. > > There is considerable room to optimize the shape of origami hulls for > different needs. By concentrating on the past we limit origami. I don't > see how it makes the slightest difference that the Wright Bros built the > first airplane, except that someone had to build the first one before anyone > could improve on it. > > However, I'm pretty sure that if we limited ourselves to only building > airplanes that looked the Wright Flyer, there would be a lot less airplanes > built. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:35 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: WHO CARES! > > > In my opinion, all origami hulls tend to finish up with a similar > underwater shape, and so you could do a lot worse that consider a > stock Swain 40ft design, and simply install a schooner rig. There is > at least one schooner junk rig of that size (Bella Via). > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13955|13943|2007-07-27 13:15:10|sae140|Re: Galvanizing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Got my winch, bollards and rudder fittings back from the galvanizers today. > I used British Metal Treatments Battery Road Great Yarmouth. They have a > minimum order of £60; I paid £70. My bits and pieces weighed 106kilos. I > fear zinc is going up in price as fast as stainless and copper etc. > > > > Jonathan. > > Thanks Jonathan, that's worth knowing .... Something I've always wondered about re: presenting steel items for galvanising - how clean does the steel have to be ? I'm thinking rust bloom, paint, oil etc. Also - is it possible to mask-off any surfaces - and if so, how's it done ? 'best Colin| 13956|13943|2007-07-28 13:12:13|James Pronk|Re: Galvanizing|Hello Colin I have had good luck using hockey tape to tape over threaded areas and silicon to fill in taped holes. Good luck, James. > > > Thanks Jonathan, that's worth knowing .... > > Something I've always wondered about re: presenting steel items for > galvanising - how clean does the steel have to be ? I'm thinking rust > bloom, paint, oil etc. > Also - is it possible to mask-off any surfaces - and if so, how's it > done ? > > 'best > Colin > | 13957|13928|2007-07-28 13:12:18|brentswain38|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|muriatic will remove too much galv. Vinegar is all you need. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Years ago I was told To etch the surface with muriatic acid available > in paint stores, wear rubber gloves, eye protection and don't breath > the fumes. Later I was told White Vinegar works as well. Check with > your paint dealer for paints that may be more resistant to chipping > than epoxy. I see "Galvanized Paint" used to repair damage to > railings caused by welding repair for example. I didn't bother to > paint my galvanized fittings and after 12 years there is no sign of > deterioration although I have been told it lasts about 15 years. > I found this googling "paint galvanized metal" > http://www.scottpaint.com/files/ta/SOLUTIONS%20WEB%20Painting%20New% > 20Galvanized%20Metal.pdf > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "neptunes_tales" > wrote: > > > > For our wood boat, we had new deck fittings fabricated in mild steel > > (chainplates, anchor roller brackets, etc.), and then hot-dip > galvanized. > > > > To protect the galvanizing from abrasion (anchor chain, for example) > > and as a base for paint, I would like to epoxy these fittings and > in a > > couple of cases improve impact resistence using fiberglass. > > > > QUESTIONS: > > > > 1. Does epoxy bond well to freshly galvanized metal? > > > > 2. Is special surface preparation needed? > > > > 3. What paint can we use on epoxy? > > > > THANKS! > > > | 13958|13921|2007-07-28 13:12:46|Eduardo Mendes Dias|Re: marine grade steel|thank you, Mauro, Brent, Here in europe we use marine grade steel in bigger boats, they have to be aproved by surveyors, mutch resistent to corrosion, but dificult to purchase. General purpose construction steel is ok, but less corrosion resistent. Also galvanize plate in coil, up to 1/4" , have the advantage of long lenghts. I'm building a 60' frigo boat, 20' beam, 10' draft, using devlopable surfaces in the design, much like origami. Brent, what is 12 gauge? thank you again eduardo ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: marine grade steel I used 12 guage galvanised for my decks. I wouldn't do it for wages, but for my own boat it was a one off. Works great. Wash it with vinegar to remove oxides, then water, and let it dry before painting.Welds well with 6011 or 7024, not so good with wire feed welders. What size boat are you building? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Sorry, Brent, others, > would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. > Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). > What steel do you use in that thikness > I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, > Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? > Thank you > eduardo > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13959|13943|2007-07-28 13:13:30|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Galvanizing|Colin, It doesn't matter what state the steel is in; they will shot blast it if necessary, it is also put in an acid bath and so on to make sure everything is ace before in goes in the zinc. You have to make sure there is something for them to hook onto though and also that there are no enclosed spaces. I found that even with my bollards, essentially a tube with a cap on one end, the darlings have drilled a hole in the top! I put stainless bar on the leading edge of my bow roller assembly; the galvanising has stuck to it but I intend to polish it off. I can't think of something to mask it with that would cope with the process. Best wishes, Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13960|13949|2007-07-28 13:13:50|Jonathan Stevens|Re: 6011 Rods from New Zealand|Paul, Thanks for this. A useful site and with lots of branches Uncle should be able to get to one. Best wishes, Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13961|13933|2007-07-28 13:14:04|Carl Anderson|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|From Moonflower of Moab: We looked into "do-it-yourself" - & the guy who sells the insulating foam TALKED ME OUT of doing it ourselves when I told him it was only twice as much more to have a PRO do it. He said we were NUTS to do it ourselves - to try to walk around in a BOAT w/ no flat floor, no STRONG compressor, the right mix of chemicals, etc. The PRO has the right equipment, the right stuff & you tell THEM what you want. They know what the foam DOES & how much it expands & how to WALK AROUND a boat. Our guy Roy, from Independent Shipwrights, was worth every dime. He had all sorts of TRICKS to do it - like peeling off multiple mask layers as the others got foamed. This shit is TOXIC - the off gassing is toxic & heavier than air. Roy told us this story... A guy in Prince Rupert couldn't get anyone to foam his fleet of fishing boats. So he got the stuff & began to foam. They found him dead at the bottom of the hull. because the out gassing displaced all the oxygen. You have to have a fresh air mask - a cartridge respirator WILL NOT WORK! So do it yourself BUT let us know where the new bare hull will be for sale.... Jon is right - Kate n' Carl Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with out > the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of > tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective and > safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is realy > missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be had > for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under 25c > per > > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing prices > > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board foot > so > > that seems like a very good deal. > > > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > > > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something > like a > > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in there, > > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some sort > of > > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works and > > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla scavenger > > sort of way? > > > > Ken > > > > | 13962|13928|2007-07-28 13:15:39|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Epoxy on galvanized steel?|I would assume that epoxy coatings have improved in the last thirty years but a friend of mine had a bad experience with powder epoxy coating a load of vintage motorcycle components which had been shotblasted and zinc sprayed before coating.The epoxy bubbled and had to be shotblasted off and the job redone.Do some test pieces first cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 13963|13963|2007-07-29 05:43:19|Chris Haagenson|New To Group.|Greetings: I've just found this group, and for the life of me, can't find just what Origami boat building is. Yes, I've looked in the files and the photos, but have not found anything that explains just what this process entails. I might have missed the file. Anyway. If I may add a bit about insulation and paint, I would think that I would not like to spray foam onto the interior of a steel boat. First, I would want to have the ability to inspect any part of the hull, down to its plating, anywhere at anytime. Second, If there was a fire aboard ship, the foam insulation will burn and/or melt. If the goal is to ensure that the paint, whatever kind or method, is performing as designed then it simply must be inspected. I would also like to assume that every part of the boat may become wet at any time, via, worst case, a roll over, or pitch-polling, More likely, however, wine from a bottle, spume from a storm, a leak from a water tank or water from a hole in a pressure hose. Foam, is an undulating mass, that while does not absorb water, it does not wick water down to the bilge, where it can be removed. Water, will always find it own level, and will puddle. Once water, gets in-between the insulation and the hull, how would it be possible for the crew to become aware of this problem? It is a slight possibility, but over the life time of a boat, one that becomes more evident. Spun rock insulation, a non-combustible, strand type insulation that can be orientated so that it permits water to flow down, can be fitted and secured to the hull. Spun rock is also a breathable material, so that any water will evaporate from the hull . It can be removed and manipulated to be used again, depending on required repairs, modifications or renovations. Whey.... Anyway....very interesting group. Christopher. --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13964|13933|2007-07-29 05:43:39|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|A little more detail on comercal sprayers. They use metering pumps on the suply end preheat the A and B componets and heat the feed lines to about 120 degres F so it is a hot mix that reacts fast and not sag to the floor. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > From Moonflower of Moab: > > We looked into "do-it-yourself" - > & the guy who sells the insulating foam TALKED ME OUT of doing it > ourselves when I told him it was only twice as much more to have a PRO > do it. He said we were NUTS to do it ourselves - to try to walk around > in a BOAT w/ no flat floor, no STRONG compressor, the right mix of > chemicals, etc. > > The PRO has the right equipment, the right stuff & you tell THEM what > you want. They know what the foam DOES & how much it expands & how to > WALK AROUND a boat. Our guy Roy, from Independent Shipwrights, was > worth every dime. He had all sorts of TRICKS to do it - like peeling > off multiple mask layers as the others got foamed. This shit is TOXIC - > the off gassing is toxic & heavier than air. Roy told us this story... > > A guy in Prince Rupert couldn't get anyone to foam his fleet of fishing > boats. So he got the stuff & began to foam. They found him dead at > the bottom of the hull. because the out gassing displaced all the > oxygen. You have to have a fresh air mask - a cartridge respirator WILL > NOT WORK! > > So do it yourself BUT let us know where the new bare hull will be for > sale.... > > Jon is right - > > Kate n' Carl > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with out > > the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of > > tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective and > > safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is realy > > missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be had > > for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under 25c > > per > > > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing prices > > > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board foot > > so > > > that seems like a very good deal. > > > > > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > > > > > > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something > > like a > > > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in there, > > > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some sort > > of > > > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works and > > > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla scavenger > > > sort of way? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > | 13965|13921|2007-07-29 05:44:11|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: marine grade steel|Here in the US at many steel mills the A36 and that to meet Lloyds in UK are the same plate but in the US and UK it has to be tested and certified to go into comercal boats or be certified by camercal builder. The steel is the same with the same chenistry you are just paying for it to be certified. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eduardo Mendes Dias" wrote: > > thank you, Mauro, Brent, > Here in europe we use marine grade steel in bigger boats, they have to be aproved by surveyors, mutch resistent to corrosion, but dificult to purchase. > General purpose construction steel is ok, but less corrosion resistent. Also galvanize plate in coil, up to 1/4" , have the advantage of long lenghts. > I'm building a 60' frigo boat, 20' beam, 10' draft, using devlopable surfaces in the design, much like origami. > Brent, what is 12 gauge? > thank you again > eduardo | 13966|13921|2007-07-29 05:45:59|Wesley Cox|Re: marine grade steel|It's about 2.5 mm. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eduardo Mendes Dias To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: marine grade steel thank you, Mauro, Brent, Here in europe we use marine grade steel in bigger boats, they have to be aproved by surveyors, mutch resistent to corrosion, but dificult to purchase. General purpose construction steel is ok, but less corrosion resistent. Also galvanize plate in coil, up to 1/4" , have the advantage of long lenghts. I'm building a 60' frigo boat, 20' beam, 10' draft, using devlopable surfaces in the design, much like origami. Brent, what is 12 gauge? thank you again eduardo ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: marine grade steel I used 12 guage galvanised for my decks. I wouldn't do it for wages, but for my own boat it was a one off. Works great. Wash it with vinegar to remove oxides, then water, and let it dry before painting.Welds well with 6011 or 7024, not so good with wire feed welders. What size boat are you building? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Sorry, Brent, others, > would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. > Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). > What steel do you use in that thikness > I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, > Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? > Thank you > eduardo > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 - Release Date: 7/27/2007 6:01 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13967|13963|2007-08-01 01:00:07|Carl Anderson|Re: New To Group.|Chris, We are talking about marine grade closed cell urethane foam. It is required for a properly built steel boat to prevent condensation against the hull. Yes it does burn but so will all the wood of the interior anyway. Nice thing about a steel hull is that it shouldn't sink, if properly designed, from a fire and can be re-built again if you are that unfortunate. Carl ps, welcome to the group and it is about building boats by folding the hull material, usually steel Chris Haagenson wrote: > > Greetings: > > I've just found this group, and for the life of me, can't find just > what Origami boat building is. > > Yes, I've looked in the files and the photos, but have not found > anything that explains just what this process entails. > > I might have missed the file. > > Anyway. > > If I may add a bit about insulation and paint, I would think that I > would not like to spray foam onto the interior of a steel boat. > > First, I would want to have the ability to inspect any part of the > hull, down to its plating, anywhere at anytime. > > Second, If there was a fire aboard ship, the foam insulation will burn > and/or melt. > > If the goal is to ensure that the paint, whatever kind or method, is > performing as designed then it simply must be inspected. > > I would also like to assume that every part of the boat may become wet > at any time, via, worst case, a roll over, or pitch-polling, More > likely, however, wine from a bottle, spume from a storm, a leak from a > water tank or water from a hole in a pressure hose. > > Foam, is an undulating mass, that while does not absorb water, it does > not wick water down to the bilge, where it can be removed. > > Water, will always find it own level, and will puddle. > > Once water, gets in-between the insulation and the hull, how would it > be possible for the crew to become aware of this problem? > > It is a slight possibility, but over the life time of a boat, one that > becomes more evident. > > Spun rock insulation, a non-combustible, strand type insulation that > can be orientated so that it permits water to flow down, can be fitted > and secured to the hull. Spun rock is also a breathable material, so > that any water will evaporate from the hull . > > It can be removed and manipulated to be used again, depending on > required repairs, modifications or renovations. > > Whey.... > > Anyway....very interesting group. > > Christopher. > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > mail, news, photos & more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 13968|13949|2007-08-01 01:00:21|sae140|Re: 6011 Rods from New Zealand|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I sent Colin some 6011 rods a few weeks ago but he has not yet let me > know how his trail went. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor Hi Paul - haven't forgotten about the trials, but we've just been hit by a monsoon with serious local flooding. My house survived (by about 2 inches), but the land and outbuildings didn't. Looking forward to drying out and getting back to steelwork soon. Colin| 13969|6459|2007-08-01 01:00:23|edward_stoneuk|Interior framing|I am starting to use angle iron 1" x 1 " x 3/16" and 1½" x 1½" x 1/8" to make the framing for the floors and soles and the engine enclosure etc. It is quicker and easier to change than wood. Does anyone have any views on using steel instead of timber? Regards, Ted| 13970|13880|2007-08-01 01:01:08|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to Cruise on Ten Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on the assumption that most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he advocates are anything but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being cheaper have totally failed in practise. Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward , which is why racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to windward. I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a 40 foter. A 36 footer is totally adequate. Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, making for very uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , most ocean pasages. The narrower the boat the less structural benefit you get from longitudinals . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why offshore boats should be > long and lean. > > For example: > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed is very helpful to out-run > bad weather and other dangers. > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, not length. > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the length of a hull than > athwart ships. > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long lean boats, because they > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where the frames are installed > on the flat. > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement boats, they will have equal > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the longer one will be faster on > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short boats make sense at a > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or offshore. > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small weight penalty as compare to > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the design, steel starts > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep the material thick to avoid > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to weight problems, requiring > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, ballast, engine, sails, > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of these add costs, reducing > the economy of steel. > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight penalty when building in steel, > the more economical it becomes to select other materials. For example, at > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It would be near impossible to > build in steel to a similar strength, without significantly increasing the > weight and costs, and cutting performance, capacity and stability. > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull speed of 9+ knots. The > offshore performance hulls such as the French have pioneered can likely be > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind they will go even faster. > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense for offshore. Build a > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but much longer, it will cost > about the same to build, the interior will be easier to fit everything into, > and the hull speed will go up, along with the directional stability. Add a > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all around. Simple to adjust > sail, none of the sails are too large for one person to manage. > > Greg > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and those are powerboat > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call them 'keels' LOL. > In any event, I must be missing something, how does that translate to > a sub 40 footer? :) > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you 11 or 12 knots? > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom appears to be essentially > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in varying conditions, > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? I've been in a few > storms that would threaten the integrity of such large amounts of glass.. > > seer > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel configuration. If you are > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a girder to support the > hull and > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for roll damping and > to allow > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > http://www.origamim > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > http://www.setsail > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:31 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > Many twin keelers sail better than many single keelers. I've never > > seen a boat with three keels that wasn't slower than a government > refund. > > With two keels canted ouward enough to minimise reaction between > > them, there is little resistance. With three keels it is almost > > impossible to reduce interaction between them. The water has trouble > > cramming itself between all that obstruction. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > > wrote: > > > > > > Greg, why 3 keels? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13971|13933|2007-08-01 01:01:15|brentswain38|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|Carl What did foaming cost you for your 36. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > From Moonflower of Moab: > > We looked into "do-it-yourself" - > & the guy who sells the insulating foam TALKED ME OUT of doing it > ourselves when I told him it was only twice as much more to have a PRO > do it. He said we were NUTS to do it ourselves - to try to walk around > in a BOAT w/ no flat floor, no STRONG compressor, the right mix of > chemicals, etc. > > The PRO has the right equipment, the right stuff & you tell THEM what > you want. They know what the foam DOES & how much it expands & how to > WALK AROUND a boat. Our guy Roy, from Independent Shipwrights, was > worth every dime. He had all sorts of TRICKS to do it - like peeling > off multiple mask layers as the others got foamed. This shit is TOXIC - > the off gassing is toxic & heavier than air. Roy told us this story... > > A guy in Prince Rupert couldn't get anyone to foam his fleet of fishing > boats. So he got the stuff & began to foam. They found him dead at > the bottom of the hull. because the out gassing displaced all the > oxygen. You have to have a fresh air mask - a cartridge respirator WILL > NOT WORK! > > So do it yourself BUT let us know where the new bare hull will be for > sale.... > > Jon is right - > > Kate n' Carl > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with out > > the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of > > tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective and > > safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is realy > > missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be had > > for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under 25c > > per > > > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing prices > > > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board foot > > so > > > that seems like a very good deal. > > > > > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > > > > > > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something > > like a > > > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in there, > > > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some sort > > of > > > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works and > > > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla scavenger > > > sort of way? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > | 13972|13963|2007-08-01 01:02:06|brentswain38|Re: New To Group.|I tried fibreglass in the 70's It was sopping wet all winter despite all efforts to make a vapour barrier.Ceramic insulating paints may solve the problem , and make fibreglass a viable option. Keeping foam out of the bilge stops any wicking. Rollovers are not that common. People who tried living on uninsulated boats in BC had solid ice over most of the inside of the hull during cold snaps in winter, despite a roaring fire in the woodstove. I've been living aboard a sprayfoamed hull , mostly in BC since 1976 with no problems. Origami boatbuilding is the proccess of cutting out the hull shapes in metal, then forming the hull by pulling and tacking the edges together, a proccess that reduces the hull and decks building time by about 90% and results in a much fairer and more collision resistant hull than older ,grossly outdated "imitation wooden boatbiulding" methods. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Haagenson wrote: > > Greetings: > > I've just found this group, and for the life of me, can't find just what Origami boat building is. > > Yes, I've looked in the files and the photos, but have not found anything that explains just what this process entails. > > I might have missed the file. > > Anyway. > > If I may add a bit about insulation and paint, I would think that I would not like to spray foam onto the interior of a steel boat. > > First, I would want to have the ability to inspect any part of the hull, down to its plating, anywhere at anytime. > > Second, If there was a fire aboard ship, the foam insulation will burn and/or melt. > > If the goal is to ensure that the paint, whatever kind or method, is performing as designed then it simply must be inspected. > > I would also like to assume that every part of the boat may become wet at any time, via, worst case, a roll over, or pitch- polling, More likely, however, wine from a bottle, spume from a storm, a leak from a water tank or water from a hole in a pressure hose. > > Foam, is an undulating mass, that while does not absorb water, it does not wick water down to the bilge, where it can be removed. > > Water, will always find it own level, and will puddle. > > Once water, gets in-between the insulation and the hull, how would it be possible for the crew to become aware of this problem? > > It is a slight possibility, but over the life time of a boat, one that becomes more evident. > > Spun rock insulation, a non-combustible, strand type insulation that can be orientated so that it permits water to flow down, can be fitted and secured to the hull. Spun rock is also a breathable material, so that any water will evaporate from the hull . > > It can be removed and manipulated to be used again, depending on required repairs, modifications or renovations. > > Whey.... > > Anyway....very interesting group. > > Christopher. > > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13973|13963|2007-08-01 01:02:20|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: New To Group.|Two part 2# spray foam works very well for many reasons. One it is better then %90 closed cell so it will soak in very little water even if the boat is filled. Two blocks all air circulation to hull skin so there is no place for moist air to come in contact with hull and condensate. Three it can be painted.epoxied or glassed. Four it holds up well. The same things can not be said of other insolation types. Sheet foam boards have voids. Glass or rock wool soak up warter and alow air flow. Lighter and one part exspanding foams soak up water like a spunge. Hope that answers your questions and doughts as well as explanes why it is done hevaly in privet and comercal steel boats as well as what is required in many parts of the world. Anything else may effect insurability and value when or if survayed. Jon| 13974|13974|2007-08-01 01:03:19|mickeyolaf|Anodized Mast Tubes|I will be in LA September 10th to meet with an aluminum mast supplier. Anyone in the Pacific Northwest/BC interested in a tube, base, head, hound, spreaders etc for self assembly and wants to join in on the order let me know. I will post the tube/part prices September 12. From my initial conversations I expect the cost to be between 3 and 4 US for the parts to assemble a 47'mast depending on how many extras and reduced on a multiple order. Those of u who might be serious about an aluminum factory mast let me know so that the rep has an idea of how many (which should reduce the price). Mine will be coming north early October and we could share on the shipping also if they were all loaded on the same truck.| 13975|13975|2007-08-01 01:04:52|Aaron|BS 36|Brent Is it just my set of prints (1988) that show the side deck center seam to be 2'2-3/4" Should be 2'5-3/4" maybe? The sad part is I cut the side decks that way and now have to splice a piece in. Any other little hints I should be paying closer attention to? Bummed| 13976|13943|2007-08-01 01:06:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: Galvanizing|Hi Colin, In my experience rust bloom is no problem but paint, wax marker etc is as it can prevent the galv from taking. The steel is pickled before galvanising so that removes rust bloom. Regards, Ted -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" galvanising - how clean does the steel have to be ? I'm thinking rust > bloom, paint, oil etc. > Also - is it possible to mask-off any surfaces - and if so, how's it > done ? > > 'best > Colin > | 13977|3341|2007-08-01 01:10:39|Harrett Peter|Painting Galvanized|Galvanized metal can be successfully refinished with the right products and application techniques. Top Secret Coatings has everything needed to get the job done right and it is all available online. All of the products I will recommend here are government spec products labeled for consumer use. You will want to begin by scuffing the surface to give the coatings extra tooth. Then pre-clean with a good metal etching cleaner. Top Secret has a good one in TS-695 Rynolite Etching Cleaner. It is a water-based cleaner that does pretty much he same thing as muratic acid, however, muratic acid is sulfuric acid which is fairly dangerous. The 695 Cleaner is phosphoric acid based so it is “kinder and gentler”. Since it is phosphoric it is basically fertilizer in the flowerbed. Once the prep-work is done you will want to prime with TS-117 Pre-wash Primer. This stuff is nick named the green-death so be careful with it. It is chock full of chromates. All you need is a fog coat. Once done prime with TS-664 Fiberglass & Aluminum Primer. It is an acid etching, high build primer that is sandable in 45 minutes. It can flash fast in direct hot sun so apply early or late in the day. When needed you can slow down it down with TS-605 Thinner. It is available in white and red oxide. Once primed you are ready to apply a top coating system. The TS-664 Primer is lacquer-proof so virtually anything can be applied over it. For above and below the waterline on trailored boats I suggest TS-100 1 Part Epoxy. It is a single component blend of four resins. It is highly flexible, UV stable, colorfast, gloss retentive and hard enough for a garage floor. It takes heat up to 400F and takes impacts up to 500 PSI without breaking the film. It is a low build oxygen cured film with a max wet film thickness of only two mils. We recommend two coats but it will cover black over white at just 1 mil which is unheard of. A sheet of paper is 4 mils. Since it goes on so thin it is very economical to use. I have seen contractors spray more than one thousand square feet with one gallon. I hope this information is useful. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Peter Harrett Sincerely, Peter Harrett, The Wildcat Conservancy www.bobcatandlynx.com WildLife Whole Prey Pet Foods www.wildlifepetfoods.com TOP SECRET COATINGS www.topsecretcoatings.com| 13978|13978|2007-08-01 01:11:18|valery19772000|rivets system|Hello every body I am planning to built a proa made of aluminium. Since the thickness of the material I want to use maybe very thin I am considering maybe rivets. Does anybody knows any rivets systems for boats??? I know absolutely nothing about rivets for boat and how they assemble it without having any leaks. Can some help me find some info.| 13979|13978|2007-08-03 06:56:49|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: rivets system|Good luck I have never knowen a riveted aluminum boat not to leak in time. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "valery19772000" wrote: > > Hello every body I am planning to built a proa made of aluminium. Since the thickness of the > material I want to use maybe very thin I am considering maybe rivets. > > Does anybody knows any rivets systems for boats??? I know absolutely nothing about rivets > for boat and how they assemble it without having any leaks. Can some help me find some > info. > | 13980|13880|2007-08-03 06:57:15|aaron riis|Re: hull shape|Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space in Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built one of Brent's 26 footers. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > Cruise on Ten > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > the assumption that > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > advocates are anything > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > cheaper have > totally failed in practise. > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > , which is why > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > windward. > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > 40 foter. A 36 > footer is totally adequate. > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > making for very > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > most ocean pasages. > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > you get from > longitudinals . > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why > offshore boats > should be > > long and lean. > > > > For example: > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed > is very helpful > to out-run > > bad weather and other dangers. > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, > not length. > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the > length of a hull > than > > athwart ships. > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long > lean boats, > because they > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where > the frames are > installed > > on the flat. > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > boats, they will > have equal > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the > longer one will be > faster on > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short > boats make sense > at a > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > offshore. > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > weight penalty as > compare to > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the > design, steel > starts > > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep > the material thick > to avoid > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to > weight problems, > requiring > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, > ballast, engine, > sails, > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of > these add costs, > reducing > > the economy of steel. > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > penalty when building > in steel, > > the more economical it becomes to select other > materials. For > example, at > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It > would be near > impossible to > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > significantly > increasing the > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > capacity and stability. > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull > speed of 9+ > knots. The > > offshore performance hulls such as the French have > pioneered can > likely be > > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind > they will go even > faster. > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense > for offshore. > Build a > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but > much longer, it > will cost > > about the same to build, the interior will be > easier to fit > everything into, > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > directional > stability. Add a > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > around. Simple to > adjust > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > person to manage. > > > > Greg > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and > those are > powerboat > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call > them 'keels' LOL. > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > does that translate > to > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you > 11 or 12 knots? > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > appears to be > essentially > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > varying conditions, > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? > I've been in a > few > > storms that would threaten the integrity of such > large amounts of > glass.. > > > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel > configuration. If > you are > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a > girder to support > the > > hull and > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for > roll damping and > > to allow > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > http://www.setsail > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC| 13981|13978|2007-08-03 06:57:27|Phil S.|rivets system|My experience with aluminum and riveting was on Helicopters mostly (we repaired the occasional river boat too) but it is a two person job one one the outside with a pneumatic rivet gun, one inside with a bucking bar. You should get a book about airframe repair from the library, will explain a lot. Phil ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/| 13982|13933|2007-08-03 06:57:58|Carl Anderson|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|When the guy showed up - he said they'd had an accident in the yard & not enough foam for our boat. So I threw up my hands & decried "expect miracles everyday". Carl said, "Put in an inch & we'll see where we get". The guy ultimately got enough foam in the boat. Some places it was way way deep, other places thin. We had to buy 10 or so cans of Great Stuff foam for touch up. We still had a lot of trimming to do. $2700 brentswain38 wrote: > > Carl > What did foaming cost you for your 36. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > From Moonflower of Moab: > > > > We looked into "do-it-yourself" - > > & the guy who sells the insulating foam TALKED ME OUT of doing it > > ourselves when I told him it was only twice as much more to have a > PRO > > do it. He said we were NUTS to do it ourselves - to try to walk > around > > in a BOAT w/ no flat floor, no STRONG compressor, the right mix of > > chemicals, etc. > > > > The PRO has the right equipment, the right stuff & you tell THEM > what > > you want. They know what the foam DOES & how much it expands & how > to > > WALK AROUND a boat. Our guy Roy, from Independent Shipwrights, was > > worth every dime. He had all sorts of TRICKS to do it - like > peeling > > off multiple mask layers as the others got foamed. This shit is > TOXIC - > > the off gassing is toxic & heavier than air. Roy told us this > story... > > > > A guy in Prince Rupert couldn't get anyone to foam his fleet of > fishing > > boats. So he got the stuff & began to foam. They found him dead > at > > the bottom of the hull. because the out gassing displaced all the > > oxygen. You have to have a fresh air mask - a cartridge respirator > WILL > > NOT WORK! > > > > So do it yourself BUT let us know where the new bare hull will be > for > > sale.... > > > > Jon is right - > > > > Kate n' Carl > > > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > > > Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with > out > > > the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of > > > tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective > and > > > safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is > realy > > > missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be > had > > > for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "khooper_fboats" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under > 25c > > > per > > > > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing > prices > > > > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board > foot > > > so > > > > that seems like a very good deal. > > > > > > > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something > > > like a > > > > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in > there, > > > > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some > sort > > > of > > > > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works > and > > > > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla > scavenger > > > > sort of way? > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13983|13978|2007-08-03 06:59:52|Paul Wilson|Re: rivets system|Hi Valery, Go to the following link and download the file. It covers aircraft but has a lot of information which I am sure applies. It's a huge file and says it is discontinued but you can still download it. It will take awhile. This website has lots of other info people may find interesting but you have to sort through it. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/CCFE0D58D41D2C8086256A55006C6B67?OpenDocument I can't remember how big the proa is you want to build. Maybe the easiest thing to do is find an existing riveted aluminum boat and copy the construction method? :) I have observed a lot of riveting done and it (like everything else) takes a little practise. Seeing it done by someone else would get you going since the aircraft stuff can get a little overwhelming...... I am curious, how much wieght are you going to save by going to the thin sheet? Thicker plate would be much more puncture resistant and with the thinner plate you will have to add extra stiffeners so is it worth it? I am also sure there must be other or better references....I have found great info in the past from military manuals....if I find anything else, I will let you know. Good luck, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: valery19772000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:34:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] rivets system Hello every body I am planning to built a proa made of aluminium. Since the thickness of the material I want to use maybe very thin I am considering maybe rivets. Does anybody knows any rivets systems for boats??? I know absolutely nothing about rivets for boat and how they assemble it without having any leaks. Can some help me find some info. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13984|3341|2007-08-03 07:00:47|T & D Cain|Re: Painting Galvanized|Peter, Muriatic is a Hydrochloric acid variant --- it is still somewhat dangerous as you mention. "It is a water-based cleaner that does pretty much he same thing as muratic acid, however, muratic acid is sulfuric acid which is fairly dangerous." Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harrett Peter Sent: Monday, 30 July 2007 2:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Painting Galvanized [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13985|13880|2007-08-03 13:51:02|greg elliott|Re: hull shape|T-Bird Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what shape the boat has or what material you use. Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do with offshore sailing. A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the wave. As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you don't want offshore. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > in > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > Cruise on Ten > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > the assumption that > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > advocates are anything > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > cheaper have > > totally failed in practise. > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > , which is why > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > windward. > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > 40 foter. A 36 > > footer is totally adequate. > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > making for very > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > most ocean pasages. > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > you get from > > longitudinals . > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why > > offshore boats > > should be > > > long and lean. > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed > > is very helpful > > to out-run > > > bad weather and other dangers. > > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > > > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, > > not length. > > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the > > length of a hull > > than > > > athwart ships. > > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long > > lean boats, > > because they > > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where > > the frames are > > installed > > > on the flat. > > > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > > boats, they will > > have equal > > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the > > longer one will be > > faster on > > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short > > boats make sense > > at a > > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > > offshore. > > > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > > weight penalty as > > compare to > > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the > > design, steel > > starts > > > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep > > the material thick > > to avoid > > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to > > weight problems, > > requiring > > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, > > ballast, engine, > > sails, > > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of > > these add costs, > > reducing > > > the economy of steel. > > > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > > penalty when building > > in steel, > > > the more economical it becomes to select other > > materials. For > > example, at > > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It > > would be near > > impossible to > > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > > significantly > > increasing the > > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > > capacity and stability. > > > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull > > speed of 9+ > > knots. The > > > offshore performance hulls such as the French have > > pioneered can > > likely be > > > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind > > they will go even > > faster. > > > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense > > for offshore. > > Build a > > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but > > much longer, it > > will cost > > > about the same to build, the interior will be > > easier to fit > > everything into, > > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > > directional > > stability. Add a > > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > > around. Simple to > > adjust > > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > > person to manage. > > > > > > Greg > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and > > those are > > powerboat > > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call > > them 'keels' LOL. > > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > > does that translate > > to > > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you > > 11 or 12 knots? > > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > > appears to be > > essentially > > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > > varying conditions, > > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? > > I've been in a > > few > > > storms that would threaten the integrity of such > > large amounts of > > glass.. > > > > > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel > > configuration. If > > you are > > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a > > girder to support > > the > > > hull and > > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for > > roll damping and > > > to allow > > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > > > http://www.setsail > > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > | 13986|6459|2007-08-03 20:03:15|brentswain38|Re: Interior framing|It sweats more near the hull. Get lots of epoxy on , which tends to chip on corners. Hot galv Hydro pole surplus would be better. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I am starting to use angle iron 1" x 1 " x 3/16" and 1½" x 1½" x 1/8" > to make the framing for the floors and soles and the engine enclosure > etc. It is quicker and easier to change than wood. Does anyone have > any views on using steel instead of timber? > > Regards, > Ted > | 13987|13933|2007-08-03 20:03:20|brentswain38|Re: Spray Foam Cheap|Sounds like an amateur job. A good sprayfoamer can get it surprisingly even. Never let the foamer leave until you have thoroughly checked for missed spots, several times. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > When the guy showed up - > he said they'd had an accident in the yard & not enough foam for our boat. > So I threw up my hands & decried "expect miracles everyday". > Carl said, "Put in an inch & we'll see where we get". > > The guy ultimately got enough foam in the boat. Some places it was way > way deep, other places thin. We had to buy 10 or so cans of Great Stuff > foam for touch up. We still had a lot of trimming to do. > > $2700 > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Carl > > What did foaming cost you for your 36. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > From Moonflower of Moab: > > > > > > We looked into "do-it-yourself" - > > > & the guy who sells the insulating foam TALKED ME OUT of doing it > > > ourselves when I told him it was only twice as much more to have a > > PRO > > > do it. He said we were NUTS to do it ourselves - to try to walk > > around > > > in a BOAT w/ no flat floor, no STRONG compressor, the right mix of > > > chemicals, etc. > > > > > > The PRO has the right equipment, the right stuff & you tell THEM > > what > > > you want. They know what the foam DOES & how much it expands & how > > to > > > WALK AROUND a boat. Our guy Roy, from Independent Shipwrights, was > > > worth every dime. He had all sorts of TRICKS to do it - like > > peeling > > > off multiple mask layers as the others got foamed. This shit is > > TOXIC - > > > the off gassing is toxic & heavier than air. Roy told us this > > story... > > > > > > A guy in Prince Rupert couldn't get anyone to foam his fleet of > > fishing > > > boats. So he got the stuff & began to foam. They found him dead > > at > > > the bottom of the hull. because the out gassing displaced all the > > > oxygen. You have to have a fresh air mask - a cartridge respirator > > WILL > > > NOT WORK! > > > > > > So do it yourself BUT let us know where the new bare hull will be > > for > > > sale.... > > > > > > Jon is right - > > > > > > Kate n' Carl > > > > > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > > > > > > Not 2# as required for marine in most areas and when mixed with > > out > > > > the use of pumps to meater tend to have uneven mix towards end of > > > > tanks. Hidden costs are the extra things you need like protective > > and > > > > safty gear as well as sprayer system and nozels. The price is > > realy > > > > missleading and the pros are quick and done. 2# pour foam can be > > had > > > > for $260 for 10 gallons or 40 CuFt. > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > , "khooper_fboats" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I'm doing the math right, this is R 4.5 spray foam at under > > 25c > > > > per > > > > > board foot, sold in 100-lb packs @ 1.85 per pound. I'm seeing > > prices > > > > > for those do-it-yourself spray kits around a dollar per board > > foot > > > > so > > > > > that seems like a very good deal. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.spectechnologiesllc.com/specials > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, the do-it-yourself kits appear to be packaged in something > > > > like a > > > > > small propane tank, there is probably a propellant charge in > > there, > > > > > and they come with cheap plastic spray heads and probably some > > sort > > > > of > > > > > inline mixer to swirl it up. Does anybody know how that works > > and > > > > > whether it can be reproduced in an origamiboats guerilla > > scavenger > > > > > sort of way? > > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 13988|13921|2007-08-03 20:03:42|brentswain38|Re: marine grade steel|12 guage is slighly thinner than 1/8th or 3.2mm Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eduardo Mendes Dias" wrote: > > thank you, Mauro, Brent, > Here in europe we use marine grade steel in bigger boats, they have to be aproved by surveyors, mutch resistent to corrosion, but dificult to purchase. > General purpose construction steel is ok, but less corrosion resistent. Also galvanize plate in coil, up to 1/4" , have the advantage of long lenghts. > I'm building a 60' frigo boat, 20' beam, 10' draft, using devlopable surfaces in the design, much like origami. > Brent, what is 12 gauge? > thank you again > eduardo > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: marine grade steel > > > I used 12 guage galvanised for my decks. I wouldn't do it for wages, > but for my own boat it was a one off. Works great. Wash it with > vinegar to remove oxides, then water, and let it dry before > painting.Welds well with 6011 or 7024, not so good with wire feed welders. > What size boat are you building? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Sorry, Brent, others, > > would you please answer my post 13797, about marine steel. > > Because I never find 3mm (1/8"). > > What steel do you use in that thikness > > I need to build a small skiff, may be origami, > > Do you have experience with galvanize plate in boats? > > Thank you > > eduardo > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13989|3341|2007-08-03 20:06:17|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Painting Galvanized|Sulfuric acid (Battrie) will eat steel Muratic is just diluted Hydocloric and won't. Stick with the Muratic or TSP. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > Peter, Muriatic is a Hydrochloric acid variant --- it is still somewhat > dangerous as you mention. > > > > "It is a water-based cleaner that does pretty much he same thing as muratic > acid, however, muratic acid is sulfuric acid which is > fairly dangerous." > > > > Terry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Harrett Peter > Sent: Monday, 30 July 2007 2:50 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Painting Galvanized > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 13990|13933|2007-08-03 20:07:36|Carl Anderson|IT FLOATS!|Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. Carl & Kate| 13991|13880|2007-08-03 20:07:51|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|The BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable .It has the interior room of an Alberg 30 .The T bird is crawling headroom only, and not all that liveable.This comparison is a good demonstration of the fallacy of narrow boats . Narrow boats that are much longer have little if any increase in interior space from a shorter ,more traditional shape. One BS26 sailed thru the NW passage in a single season and another sailed from BC to Australia, some thing I'd never attempt in a T bird. A friend sailed a T bird from BC to Frisco and said it was a nightmare. The motion at sea was horrendous.They are designed for day racing and the odd overnight cruise. Deadrise has as much to do with following the wave shape as beam.T birds have little deadrise. People have tried extremely deep narrow boats in the round the world race , with dismal results. I saw one T bird built in aluminium tho , and I'm surprised it isn't more common.It's somewhere in Comox. Easy to do in origami. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > T-Bird > > Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) > Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) > Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) > Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) > Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) > Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) > Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) > > The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller > you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. > > If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the > wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what > shape the boat has or what material you use. > > Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most > sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. > > Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do > with offshore sailing. > > A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore > will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high > B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. > > The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be > tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. > > The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, > and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the > wave. > > As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher > energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio > boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you > don't want offshore. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > wrote: > > > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > > in > > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > > Cruise on Ten > > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > > the assumption that > > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > > advocates are anything > > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > > cheaper have > > > totally failed in practise. > > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > > , which is why > > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > > windward. > > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > > 40 foter. A 36 > > > footer is totally adequate. > > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > > making for very > > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > > most ocean pasages. > > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > > you get from > > > longitudinals . > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why > > > offshore boats > > > should be > > > > long and lean. > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed > > > is very helpful > > > to out-run > > > > bad weather and other dangers. > > > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > > > > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, > > > not length. > > > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the > > > length of a hull > > > than > > > > athwart ships. > > > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long > > > lean boats, > > > because they > > > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where > > > the frames are > > > installed > > > > on the flat. > > > > > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > > > boats, they will > > > have equal > > > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the > > > longer one will be > > > faster on > > > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short > > > boats make sense > > > at a > > > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > > > offshore. > > > > > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > > > weight penalty as > > > compare to > > > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the > > > design, steel > > > starts > > > > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep > > > the material thick > > > to avoid > > > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to > > > weight problems, > > > requiring > > > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, > > > ballast, engine, > > > sails, > > > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of > > > these add costs, > > > reducing > > > > the economy of steel. > > > > > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > > > penalty when building > > > in steel, > > > > the more economical it becomes to select other > > > materials. For > > > example, at > > > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It > > > would be near > > > impossible to > > > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > > > significantly > > > increasing the > > > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > > > capacity and stability. > > > > > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull > > > speed of 9+ > > > knots. The > > > > offshore performance hulls such as the French have > > > pioneered can > > > likely be > > > > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind > > > they will go even > > > faster. > > > > > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense > > > for offshore. > > > Build a > > > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but > > > much longer, it > > > will cost > > > > about the same to build, the interior will be > > > easier to fit > > > everything into, > > > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > > > directional > > > stability. Add a > > > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > > > around. Simple to > > > adjust > > > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > > > person to manage. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and > > > those are > > > powerboat > > > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call > > > them 'keels' LOL. > > > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > > > does that translate > > > to > > > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you > > > 11 or 12 knots? > > > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > > > appears to be > > > essentially > > > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > > > varying conditions, > > > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? > > > I've been in a > > > few > > > > storms that would threaten the integrity of such > > > large amounts of > > > glass.. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel > > > configuration. If > > > you are > > > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a > > > girder to support > > > the > > > > hull and > > > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for > > > roll damping and > > > > to allow > > > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > > > > > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.setsail > > > > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > > that gives answers, not web links. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > > | 13992|13880|2007-08-03 20:12:44|Wesley Cox|Re: hull shape|Greg, I've been watching the ongoing barrage on this group by you against anything Brent Swain for 2 years or more. I won't comment on the level of rationality of most of your arguments. Everyone here is smart enough to form their own opinion on that. It doesn't seem like this is the most receptive forum for it. What you seem to be implying this time is the Brent Swain 26 footer is crap for off shore use or upwind sailing. Are there any current or former owners who would like to enlighten us with facts? (I suppose it could take awhile for them to respond if their computers happen to be upwind ;-) [note from Moderator: I believe both gentlemen were making a case for moderate beam hulls, if I'm not mistaken, and that extremes in either direction serve only the law of diminishing returns) ----- Original Message ----- From: greg elliott To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape T-Bird Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what shape the boat has or what material you use. Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do with offshore sailing. A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the wave. As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you don't want offshore. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > in > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > Cruise on Ten > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > the assumption that > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > advocates are anything > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > cheaper have > > totally failed in practise. > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > , which is why > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > windward. > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > 40 foter. A 36 > > footer is totally adequate. > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > making for very > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > most ocean pasages. > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > you get from > > longitudinals . > > Brent > > > > | 13993|13993|2007-08-04 17:33:27|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Thrusters and hydralic pump or high pressure watermaker/pressur|Thought that you might be interested in this thruister arrangement.This Dutch company manufactures a set of thrusters that operate off the main engine using a hydraulic pump. A small hole required in each corner of theboat for the nozles! Instead, I was wondering if a divereter off a high pressure watermaker pump would work as well? http://www.willdo.nl/ Ian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 13994|13880|2007-08-04 17:34:24|heretic_37ft|Re: hull shape == fun|To those NOT having fun yet: There is pure heaven when sailing…my Heretic 37 -- I would rather "fight" than switch to another boat. Brent Swain is by far (to me) the leader in small craft cruising design, construction, sailing (note triple talents). I like hardcore reality, not subliminal passages into fantasy land. Thank you Mr. Swain. If having 4000k (4 mil US)laying around like Steve Dashew and feeling the need to have the best yacht on earth so nobody could ever (ever) contest your self proclaimed infinite wisdom, then this group would lend you to being critical of all of us. Not fun? I'm in the "go cruising for less than 70k social status" and loving every minute of it. And I believe I could have more fun than the guys that have a West Marine Catalog strapped their belt in a '60+ cruiser (with an expensive hooker for a cook). That's for the Latitude 38 readers only. Respect to the group, Heretic_37ft| 13995|13978|2007-08-04 18:00:04|John Waalkes|rivets system|Take a kook at how aircraft floats are built. Lots of labor.| 13996|13996|2007-08-04 18:00:10|Harrett Peter|Painting galvanized steel|Galvanized metal can be successfully refinished with the right products and application techniques. Top Secret Coatings has everything needed to get the job done right and it is all available online. All of the products I will recommend here are government spec products labeled for consumer use. You will want to begin by scuffing the surface to give the coatings extra tooth. Then pre-clean with a good metal etching cleaner. Top Secret has a good one in TS-695 Rynolite Etching Cleaner. It is a water-based cleaner that does pretty much he same thing as muratic acid, however, muratic acid is sulfuric acid which is fairly dangerous. The 695 Cleaner is phosphoric acid based so it is “kinder and gentler”. Since it is phosphoric it is basically fertilizer in the flowerbed. Once the prep-work is done you will want to prime with TS-117 Pre-wash Primer. This stuff is nick named the green-death so be careful with it. It is chock full of chromates. All you need is a fog coat. Once done prime with TS-664 Fiberglass & Aluminum Primer. It is an acid etching, high build primer that is sandable in 45 minutes. It can flash fast in direct hot sun so apply early or late in the day. When needed you can slow down it down with TS-605 Thinner. It is available in white and red oxide. Once primed you are ready to apply a top coating system. The TS-664 Primer is lacquer-proof so virtually anything can be applied over it. For above and below the waterline on trailored boats I suggest TS-100 1 Part Epoxy. It is a single component blend of four resins. It is highly flexible, UV stable, colorfast, gloss retentive and hard enough for a garage floor. It takes heat up to 400F and takes impacts up to 500 PSI without breaking the film. It is a low build oxygen cured film with a max wet film thickness of only two mils. We recommend two coats but it will cover black over white at just 1 mil which is unheard of. A sheet of paper is 4 mils. Since it goes on so thin it is very economical to use. I have seen contractors spray more than one thousand square feet with one gallon. I hope this information is useful. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. Sincerely, Peter Harrett, TOP SECRET COATINGS http://www.topsecretcoatings.com Sincerely, Peter Harrett, The Wildcat Conservancy www.bobcatandlynx.com WildLife Whole Prey Pet Foods www.wildlifepetfoods.com TOP SECRET COATINGS www.topsecretcoatings.com| 13997|13933|2007-08-04 18:00:20|brentswain38|Re: IT FLOATS!|Congratulations. When will we see you in the northern Strait of Georgia? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. > Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. > Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. > > Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. > Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. > Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. > > Carl & Kate > | 13998|13880|2007-08-04 19:22:06|Paul Wilson|Re: hull shape|I couldn't disagree more....I think if anyone on this forum has been attacked regularly and unfairly, it has been Greg. I have built, owned and have sailed a Brent Swain boat for 20 years now. It is an absolutely fantastic boat. Pound for pound (or foot for foot) it is probably the best offshore 36 footer available in my opinion. Having said that, Greg has great ideas, and I am interested in his designs. They are quite different from Brents designs, just like Dashews, but in no way does it mean they are wrong. They are just different, and if there was only one design that worked all offshore designs would look the same....they don't. Just because someone offers you an apple, it doesn't mean he is saying the orange is crap. There is room for everybody on this forum and when it gets a focus that is one sided and narrow, everybody loses. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2007 6:16:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Greg, I've been watching the ongoing barrage on this group by you against anything Brent Swain for 2 years or more. I won't comment on the level of rationality of most of your arguments. Everyone here is smart enough to form their own opinion on that. It doesn't seem like this is the most receptive forum for it. What you seem to be implying this time is the Brent Swain 26 footer is crap for off shore use or upwind sailing. Are there any current or former owners who would like to enlighten us with facts? (I suppose it could take awhile for them to respond if their computers happen to be upwind ;-) [note from Moderator: I believe both gentlemen were making a case for moderate beam hulls, if I'm not mistaken, and that extremes in either direction serve only the law of diminishing returns) ----- Original Message ----- From: greg elliott To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape T-Bird Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what shape the boat has or what material you use. Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do with offshore sailing. A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the wave. As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you don't want offshore. Greg --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, aaron riis wrote: > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > in > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > Cruise on Ten > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > the assumption that > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > advocates are anything > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > cheaper have > > totally failed in practise. > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > , which is why > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > windward. > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > 40 foter. A 36 > > footer is totally adequate. > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > making for very > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > most ocean pasages. > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > you get from > > longitudinals . > > Brent > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 13999|13933|2007-08-04 19:23:19|seeratlas|Re: IT FLOATS! PHOTOS?|C'mon Carl and Kate :) where's all the photos? :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. > Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. > Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. > > Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. > Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. > Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. > > Carl & Kate > | 14000|13880|2007-08-04 19:29:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|The T-Bird is not a narrow boat and has nothing to do with offshore. It is an example of how other materials are advantaged as boat size decreases. A T-Bird can be purchased used for very little $$ and will blow the doors off most similarly sized boats around the buoys. For many sailors it will prove more enjoyable than a steel boat of similar length and typically can be purchased for less than the cost of building. The question of narrow boats came about because origami is a great technique for producing hulls to any length you wish, with minimal extra work. The simple fact is that in origami it doesn't take much more time or effort to fold a 52 foot hull than a 26 foot hull, especially if you keep the beam and headroom relatively unchanged. If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube twice as long. However, the market value of a 52 foot hull is typically much more than 2 times the resale value of a 26 foot hull. It will typically be more like 5-10 times. So, if you are going to take years of your life to build a boat, why not take advantage of the economics or origami and make your time worth something? All too often when building boats, the end result is something that could have been purchased for less than the cost of materials that went into the boat. The number of amateur builders that have actually build a boat for less than could have purchased that same boat is few and far between, once they add up all the costs. There are those that claim they have, but when you look closely, you find many hidden or otherwise subsidized costs. The shorter the boat, the more likely you can purchase for less than the cost of building. The longer the boat, the more likely you can build something in origami that will be worth more than the cost of building. As well, there is no comparison in sailing a 52 foot hull versus a 26 foot hull. The added waterline and stability make a huge difference in speed and boat motion. It is like night and day. A 52 foot boat with 10 foot beam is not going to roll more than an 26 foot boat with 10 foot beam. That idea is false. With similar hull sections, the 52 foot will roll less and the difference in pitching and hobby horsing will be fantastic. This difference in pitching motion is also especially important at anchor. The 52 footer will be much faster, with a hull speed of 9+ knots, allowing you to better avoid bad weather. In any sort of weather a 52x10 hull will blow by a 26x10 hull. More often than not, the folks on the 26 footer will hanging over the side puking their guts up due to the motion, while those on the 52 are sitting comfortably on deck enjoying the sail. Don't take anyone's word for this. Get out on the water and discover this for yourselves. The number of people that have spent years building, only to discover terminal seasickness when they take their boat on the water is legendary. For cruising couples, the extra hull length is a godsend, as it provides the required privacy from time to time to prevent divorce. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 3:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape The BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable .It has the interior room of an Alberg 30 .The T bird is crawling headroom only, and not all that liveable.This comparison is a good demonstration of the fallacy of narrow boats . Narrow boats that are much longer have little if any increase in interior space from a shorter ,more traditional shape. One BS26 sailed thru the NW passage in a single season and another sailed from BC to Australia, some thing I'd never attempt in a T bird. A friend sailed a T bird from BC to Frisco and said it was a nightmare. The motion at sea was horrendous.They are designed for day racing and the odd overnight cruise. Deadrise has as much to do with following the wave shape as beam.T birds have little deadrise. People have tried extremely deep narrow boats in the round the world race , with dismal results. I saw one T bird built in aluminium tho , and I'm surprised it isn't more common.It's somewhere in Comox. Easy to do in origami. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > T-Bird > > Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) > Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) > Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) > Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) > Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) > Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) > Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) > > The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller > you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. > > If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the > wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what > shape the boat has or what material you use. > > Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most > sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. > > Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do > with offshore sailing. > > A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore > will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high > B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. > > The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be > tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. > > The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, > and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the > wave. > > As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher > energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio > boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you > don't want offshore. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > wrote: > > > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > > in > > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > > Cruise on Ten > > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > > the assumption that > > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > > advocates are anything > > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > > cheaper have > > > totally failed in practise. > > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > > , which is why > > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > > windward. > > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > > 40 foter. A 36 > > > footer is totally adequate. > > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > > making for very > > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > > most ocean pasages. > > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > > you get from > > > longitudinals . > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why > > > offshore boats > > > should be > > > > long and lean. > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed > > > is very helpful > > > to out-run > > > > bad weather and other dangers. > > > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > > > > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, > > > not length. > > > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the > > > length of a hull > > > than > > > > athwart ships. > > > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long > > > lean boats, > > > because they > > > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where > > > the frames are > > > installed > > > > on the flat. > > > > > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > > > boats, they will > > > have equal > > > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the > > > longer one will be > > > faster on > > > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short > > > boats make sense > > > at a > > > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > > > offshore. > > > > > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > > > weight penalty as > > > compare to > > > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the > > > design, steel > > > starts > > > > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep > > > the material thick > > > to avoid > > > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to > > > weight problems, > > > requiring > > > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, > > > ballast, engine, > > > sails, > > > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of > > > these add costs, > > > reducing > > > > the economy of steel. > > > > > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > > > penalty when building > > > in steel, > > > > the more economical it becomes to select other > > > materials. For > > > example, at > > > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It > > > would be near > > > impossible to > > > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > > > significantly > > > increasing the > > > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > > > capacity and stability. > > > > > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull > > > speed of 9+ > > > knots. The > > > > offshore performance hulls such as the French have > > > pioneered can > > > likely be > > > > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind > > > they will go even > > > faster. > > > > > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense > > > for offshore. > > > Build a > > > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but > > > much longer, it > > > will cost > > > > about the same to build, the interior will be > > > easier to fit > > > everything into, > > > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > > > directional > > > stability. Add a > > > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > > > around. Simple to > > > adjust > > > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > > > person to manage. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and > > > those are > > > powerboat > > > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call > > > them 'keels' LOL. > > > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > > > does that translate > > > to > > > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you > > > 11 or 12 knots? > > > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > > > appears to be > > > essentially > > > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > > > varying conditions, > > > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? > > > I've been in a > > > few > > > > storms that would threaten the integrity of such > > > large amounts of > > > glass.. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel > > > configuration. If > > > you are > > > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a > > > girder to support > > > the > > > > hull and > > > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for > > > roll damping and > > > > to allow > > > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm> > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.setsail. > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html> > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > > that gives answers, not web links. > > http://mobile. yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|