14001|13978|2007-08-04 19:33:05|jim dorey|Re: rivets system|Paul Wilson wrote: > I am curious, how much wieght are you going to save by going to the thin > sheet? Thicker plate would be much more puncture resistant and with the > thinner plate you will have to add extra stiffeners so is it worth it? maybe two ultra thin layers, in between them some expanded foam after construction of the hull is complete. like fibreglass, it might be stronger by going to a sandwich style construction, might even be able to build of metal the thickness of coffee can sheet, it'd be light and strong, with the foam.| 14002|13880|2007-08-04 20:09:07|jim_both|Re: hull shape|Well said Paul, I always look forward to reading Greg's posts; he has a lot of experience and an enjoyable writing style. I'm waiting for him to publish a cruising guide to S.E. Asia :) Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I couldn't disagree more....I think if anyone on this forum has been attacked regularly and unfairly, it has been Greg. > > I have built, owned and have sailed a Brent Swain boat for 20 years now. It is an absolutely fantastic boat. Pound for pound (or foot for foot) it is probably the best offshore 36 footer available in my opinion. Having said that, Greg has great ideas, and I am interested in his designs. They are quite different from Brents designs, just like Dashews, but in no way does it mean they are wrong. They are just different, and if there was only one design that worked all offshore designs would look the same....they don't. Just because someone offers you an apple, it doesn't mean he is saying the orange is crap. > > There is room for everybody on this forum and when it gets a focus that is one sided and narrow, everybody loses. > > Cheers, Paul | 14003|14003|2007-08-04 20:10:13|Alex|comfortable motion in a 36|From my experience on Silas Crosby, a BS 36, the motion of the 36 footer is just perfect, arm-chair comfort in many conditions. I'm taking possession of another 36 footer August 15th, twin-keeled aft-cabin model also, and will report to you all on it's comfort at sea as soon as I get it to Vancouver Island. Alex| 14004|13880|2007-08-05 13:57:19|aaron riis|Re: hull shape|Greg, I stand corrected about the displacement of the T-bird. If I were to cut my boat in half and add 26 feet of steel in the center length wise, are you saying that I would double the displacement of the boat? Would I double the volume? If we were talking about square trailers yes, but I am sure that the middle section would weigh more than the bow and stern which are more narrow, plus the ballast to counteract the extra buoyancy. A 52 footer that weighs 13,400 lbs? sounds pretty light to me. The volume, displacement, amount of welding rod, steel, lead, paint, grinding wheels, oxygen....? everything would be way more than double. It would be interesting to compare Jean-Marc's 50 footer (I think the beam is about 14 feet) to my 26 footer and how many times the volume and displacement. With Brent's boats, 26, 31,36 footers, adding five feet of hull length adds over 5000 lbs of displacement. respectfully Aaron --- jim_both wrote: > Well said Paul, I always look forward to reading > Greg's posts; he has > a lot of experience and an enjoyable writing style. > I'm waiting for > him to publish a cruising guide to S.E. Asia :) > Cheers, Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > I couldn't disagree more....I think if anyone on > this forum has > been attacked regularly and unfairly, it has been > Greg. > > > > I have built, owned and have sailed a Brent Swain > boat for 20 years > now. It is an absolutely fantastic boat. Pound for > pound (or foot > for foot) it is probably the best offshore 36 footer > available in my > opinion. Having said that, Greg has great ideas, > and I am > interested in his designs. They are quite different > from Brents > designs, just like Dashews, but in no way does it > mean they are > wrong. They are just different, and if there was > only one design > that worked all offshore designs would look the. > same....they don't. > Just because someone offers you an apple, it doesn't > mean he is > saying the orange is crap. > > > > There is room for everybody on this forum and when > it gets a focus > that is one sided and narrow, everybody loses. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz| 14005|13993|2007-08-05 13:59:01|seeratlas|Re: Thrusters and hydralic pump or high pressure watermaker/pressur|Couple of years ago I discussed with Brent in priv emails the concept of using an engine driven emergency bilge pump with diverter valves, one of which sent the outflow thru a large diameter hose forward, then down thru a 'pipe within a pipe' with a wedge cut opening at the lower end of the inside pipe. What i'm talking about is kind of an inverse periscope, that can be lowered then turned about 270 degrees, the wedge cut creating a directional outflow that could be used for several purposes, 1. manuevering bow thruster to either side, and 2. a very slow speed forward maneuvering drive, (near silent in my hybrid/electrical boat config) so when i get my boat built, if I ever sail past you guys in light air, you'll know how i'm doing it :) heheheh). Subsequent mental review has concluded that the forward end of the pipe(opposite of outflow wedge) would be perfect for mounting a depthsounder now sonar for manuevering thru coral reefs, muddy shoal harbor entrances etc. When the 'periscope/thruster' is pulled back up into its outer standpipe (top far above waterline :) its bottom is shaped to sit flush with the bottom of the hull. Since most blue water sailors like a BIG (read powerful) emergency bilge pump, and most emergency bilge pumps die thru nonuse, rather than overuse, having diverters that provide for high pressure deck wash, fire control (on someone else's boat:), and a helluva water canon for soaking that sob who's about to ram another boat thru inattention :) it seems like an elegantly simple solution to several possible problems :) not to mention, just plain fun :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > > Thought that you might be interested in this thruister arrangement.This Dutch company manufactures a set of thrusters that operate off the main engine using a hydraulic pump. A small hole required in each corner of theboat for the nozles! > > Instead, I was wondering if a divereter off a high pressure watermaker pump would work as well? > > http://www.willdo.nl/ > > > Ian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14006|14006|2007-08-05 13:59:32|Aaron|Cockpit instalation|Brent or ? When installing the cockpit does the aft end hold the same 2" slope on the side decks or should they end up flat? I have the extra drop for and aft and I set the slope for 2" it just looked odd. Aaron| 14007|13933|2007-08-05 14:00:29|Aaron Williams|Re: IT FLOATS!|Way to go Carl Anderson wrote: Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. Carl & Kate --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14008|13993|2007-08-05 14:00:56|polaris041|Re: Thrusters and hydralic pump or high pressure watermaker/pressur|Ian; The high pressure pump on the water maker will probably be of the piston type. If the water maker can produce 10 gal per hour with a rejection rate of 90% then the pump is delivering 100 gallons per hour at a very high pressure. If this were diverted to the 45mm nozzle of the thrusters, a couple a things will be apparent. Firstly the piston of the pump can only go as fast as its motor permits so maybe the volume will be limited to 100 gallons per hour, therefore we have 1.5 gallons per minute leaving an 1 ¾ nozzle at a vastly reduced pressure. The pump in the thuster unit is probably a vane or impellor pump capable of high speed rotation (3-4000 rpm) and moving maybe 150 gallon/minute (9000 gph) at 20psi. So even though my figures are a bit fudgey I think the answer is obvious. Unless you had a water maker capable of making 1000 gallons per hour. For what it's worth. Others may be able to tidy up the figures a bit Regards pol. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > > Thought that you might be interested in this thruister arrangement.This Dutch company manufactures a set of thrusters that operate off the main engine using a hydraulic pump. A small hole required in each corner of theboat for the nozles! > > Instead, I was wondering if a divereter off a high pressure watermaker pump would work as well? > > http://www.willdo.nl/ > > > Ian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14009|13880|2007-08-05 14:03:38|heretic_37ft|Greg@thisgroup|All: Greg is a great dude. He has experience -- very valuable -- I would actually pay for it. Lucky we get Greg's knowledge for free. Contesting ideas is a good thing, too. Greg is relentless. That's cool, the sign of a real sailor. Greg: If you are coming to Hawaii again, you are welcome on my boat. And free speech is encouraged (good or bad)! You are a defender of the ocean, I like that. Respectfully, Heretic_37| 14010|13978|2007-08-06 22:43:11|Wally Paine|Re: rivets system|I saw, in Germany a couple of years, ago sheet material which consisted of two thin approx 1mm aluminium sheets separated by about 3mm of some plastic material. It was manufactured for cladding buildings. My host was an engineer and in a discussion with respect to using it as a boat building material we concluded that it would be difficult to join and also to repair. Wally Paine --- jim dorey wrote: > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I am curious, how much wieght are you going to > save by going to the thin > > sheet? Thicker plate would be much more puncture > resistant and with the > > thinner plate you will have to add extra > stiffeners so is it worth it? > > maybe two ultra thin layers, in between them some > expanded foam after construction of the hull > is complete. like fibreglass, it might be stronger > by going to a sandwich style construction, > might even be able to build of metal the thickness > of coffee can sheet, it'd be light and > strong, with the foam. > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html| 14011|6459|2007-08-06 22:43:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: Interior framing & foaming|Thanks Brent, Mostly the steel floors and frames are below the waterline. How far down do you recommend foaming? I was thinking as far down as the chine or perhaps the outside of the twin keels. Do you foam in the diesel pipes and cable ducts etc? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It sweats more near the hull. Get lots of epoxy on , which tends to > chip on corners. Hot galv Hydro pole surplus would be better. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I am starting to use angle iron 1" x 1 " x 3/16" and 1½" x 1½" x 1/8" > > to make the framing for the floors and soles and the engine enclosure > > etc. It is quicker and easier to change than wood. Does anyone have > > any views on using steel instead of timber? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 14012|13880|2007-08-06 22:43:36|Wally Paine|Re: hull shape|In the discussion with respect to broad boats v narrow boats and rolling there has been no mention of the degree to which a particular hull shape will damp out the rolling motion. It seems to me that that is at least as important as other factors. It has to be said that I am not familiar with either Brent's or Gregs designs and currently sail a plastic 19 footer. Wally Paine --- greg elliott wrote: > T-Bird > > Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) > Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) > Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) > Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) > Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) > Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) > Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 > sq. m) > > The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. > The smaller > you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using > steel. > > If you have all the time in the world, or you always > sail off the > wind, or are willing to motor, then it really > doesn't matter what > shape the boat has or what material you use. > > Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform > as well as most > sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different > story. > > Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of > which are to do > with offshore sailing. > > A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) > ratio offshore > will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow > boat with a high > B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. > > The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy > boat will be > tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks > ballast to resist. > > The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave > to act upon, > and has much more ballast to resist the tilting > force of the the > wave. > > As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to > larger (higher > energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making > the low B/D ratio > boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. > Exactly what you > don't want offshore. > > Greg > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > > wrote: > > > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior > space > > in > > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most > of > > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the > balast > > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull > weight. > > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected > the > > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and > built > > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " > How to > > > Cruise on Ten > > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written > on > > > the assumption that > > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > > advocates are anything > > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > > cheaper have > > > totally failed in practise. > > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to > windward > > > , which is why > > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster > to > > > windward. > > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea > in a > > > 40 foter. A 36 > > > footer is totally adequate. > > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following > sea, > > > making for very > > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say > , > > > most ocean pasages. > > > The narrower the boat the less structural > benefit > > > you get from > > > longitudinals . > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for > why > > > offshore boats > > > should be > > > > long and lean. > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - > speed > > > is very helpful > > > to out-run > > > > bad weather and other dangers. > > > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not > length. > > > > 3. Cost of construction varies as > displacement, > > > not length. > > > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down > the > > > length of a hull > > > than > > > > athwart ships. > > > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building > long > > > lean boats, > > > because they > > > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, > where > > > the frames are > > > installed > > > > on the flat. > > > > > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > > > boats, they will > > > have equal > > > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but > the > > > longer one will be > > > faster on > > > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. > Short > > > boats make sense > > > at a > > > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > > > offshore. > > > > > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > > > weight penalty as > > > compare to > > > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink > the > > > design, steel > > > starts > > > > adding a weight penalty because you need to > keep > > > the material thick > > > to avoid > > > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads > to > > > weight problems, > > > requiring > > > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger > mast, > > > ballast, engine, > > > sails, > > > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All > of > > > these add costs, > > > reducing > > > > the economy of steel. > > > > > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > > > penalty when building > > > in steel, > > > > the more economical it becomes to select other > > > materials. For > > > example, at > > > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. > It > > > would be near > > > impossible to > > > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > > > significantly > > > increasing the > > > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > > > capacity and stability. > > > > > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a > hull > > > speed of 9+ > > > knots. The > > > > offshore performance hulls such as the French > have > > > pioneered can > > > likely be > > > > done in origami without any chines. Off the > wind > > > they will go even > > > faster. > > > > > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make > sense > > > for offshore. > > > Build a > > > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement > but > > > much longer, it > > > will cost > > > > about the same to build, the interior will be > > > easier to fit > > > everything into, > > > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > > > directional > > > stability. Add a > > > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > > > around. Simple to > > > adjust > > > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > > > person to manage. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 > feet....and > > > those are > > > powerboat > > > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to > call > > > them 'keels' LOL. > > > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > > > does that translate > > > to > > > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting > you > > > 11 or 12 knots? > > > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > > > appears to be > > > essentially > > > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > > > varying conditions, > > > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made > of? > > > I've been in a > > > few > > > > storms that would threaten the integrity of > such > > > large amounts of > > > glass.. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the > keel > > > configuration. If > > > you are > > > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is > a > > > girder to support > > > the > > > > hull and > > > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are > for > > > roll damping and > > > > to allow > > > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.setsail > > > > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > > that gives answers, not web links. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html| 14013|14013|2007-08-06 22:43:43|taolsen2003|Swain Origami Boats in Sydney or Victoria|Are there any examples of these designs in Sydney or Victoria? I will be there the afternoon Thurs 8/16 and Fri 8/17 and would like to take a look. Thank you, Todd Olsen| 14014|13880|2007-08-06 22:43:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: hull shape|On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube > twice as long. The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior - is quadrupled. I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer doesn't know that. There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving power - i.e., a larger engine and more (much more - and heavier) rigging. This, in turn, implies much heavier fittings to anchor that rigging. Speaking of anchors, _their_ size more than doubles - take a look at the recommendations per foot of boat length in, say, the West Marine catalog. Oh, and when you go to a dock or haul out at a yard, those fees will be much, much higher. Doubling the length of a boat is not quite the trivial change that it's made out to be. In fact, in all my experience, every additional three feet of length (I'm speaking of boats in the 20-40 foot range here) approximately doubles *all* boat-related costs. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14015|13880|2007-08-06 22:44:09|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|The JM50/Pangaea at 50 feet is almost exactly the same beam and displacement as the Lazy Bones at 39 feet. From my (limited) experience sailing Pangaea, with the much greater sail area she handles like a huge performance dinghy, while the LB39 handles like a steel cruising boat. For speed, sheer fun of sailing, stability, the ability to go to weather, there was no comparison between the boats. Pangaea was clearly the winner by a large margin. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aaron riis Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 10:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Greg, I stand corrected about the displacement of the T-bird. If I were to cut my boat in half and add 26 feet of steel in the center length wise, are you saying that I would double the displacement of the boat? Would I double the volume? If we were talking about square trailers yes, but I am sure that the middle section would weigh more than the bow and stern which are more narrow, plus the ballast to counteract the extra buoyancy. A 52 footer that weighs 13,400 lbs? sounds pretty light to me. The volume, displacement, amount of welding rod, steel, lead, paint, grinding wheels, oxygen....? everything would be way more than double. It would be interesting to compare Jean-Marc's 50 footer (I think the beam is about 14 feet) to my 26 footer and how many times the volume and displacement. With Brent's boats, 26, 31,36 footers, adding five feet of hull length adds over 5000 lbs of displacement. respectfully Aaron --- jim_both optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Well said Paul, I always look forward to reading > Greg's posts; he has > a lot of experience and an enjoyable writing style. > I'm waiting for > him to publish a cruising guide to S.E. Asia :) > Cheers, Jim > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > I couldn't disagree more....I think if anyone on > this forum has > been attacked regularly and unfairly, it has been > Greg. > > > > I have built, owned and have sailed a Brent Swain > boat for 20 years > now. It is an absolutely fantastic boat. Pound for > pound (or foot > for foot) it is probably the best offshore 36 footer > available in my > opinion. Having said that, Greg has great ideas, > and I am > interested in his designs. They are quite different > from Brents > designs, just like Dashews, but in no way does it > mean they are > wrong. They are just different, and if there was > only one design > that worked all offshore designs would look the. > same....they don't. > Just because someone offers you an apple, it doesn't > mean he is > saying the orange is crap. > > > > There is room for everybody on this forum and when > it gets a focus > that is one sided and narrow, everybody loses. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > __________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search. yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14016|13880|2007-08-06 22:44:47|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg@thisgroup|Hawaii remains one of my most favorite places on earth, though the lack of harbor was a problem. Hull awash after a capsize in a race a few weeks backs, one crew member refused to bail. Instead he made a series of clearly irrational excuses, to avoid the slightest movement. Frozen by fear, he had given up. On his own he could easily have died, regardless of what boat he was in. The most critical aspect of any boat is the crew, not the boat. Talk about such and such design being best, it is a joke designed to sell boats. Kinney's Pipe Dream is what, 50+ years old? A good design in its day, but that day is long gone. Yacht designs are evolving. What was true yesterday is false today, making for endless discussion. You can always pull up isolated facts to prove anything in boats, depending on the era you draw from. The fastest monohulls right now tend to be narrow. Next year the fastest may be super wide. No boat is fastest in all conditions. The race course drives yacht design as much as anything. What I like about origami is that is does a much better job of producing fair hulls when you go with more modern hull forms. Because most everything is oriented longitudinally, you can make the hulls much longer with very little extra effort while building, eliminating the weight penalty of steel construction. By taking advantage of this, by going with longer hulls, origami offers amateur builders the opportunity to build something that is worth more than what it costs to build. Take a piece of 8.5x11 (A4) paper. On one of the 8.5" ends, pull the two halves together to form a 4.25" plumb bow. Spread the stern open a bit with your fingers. Look at what you have. An almost perfect open 40/60 hull. Boat building doesn't get much easier than this. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of heretic_37ft Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 7:22 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Greg@thisgroup All: Greg is a great dude. He has experience -- very valuable -- I would actually pay for it. Lucky we get Greg's knowledge for free. Contesting ideas is a good thing, too. Greg is relentless. That's cool, the sign of a real sailor. Greg: If you are coming to Hawaii again, you are welcome on my boat. And free speech is encouraged (good or bad)! You are a defender of the ocean, I like that. Respectfully, Heretic_37 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14017|14017|2007-08-06 22:52:36|jfpacuas|Keel Welding advice wanted|Hi folks, I've got my 2 keels tacked together for my BS 26. I'm welding the keel bottoms to the sides along the outside edge. The keels are small, only 2 feet deep, so I thought I could also weld the sides to the bottom on the inside. It would be pretty easy with a drag rod. Any compelling reason not to do this? Cheers Paul| 14018|13933|2007-08-06 22:53:22|Alex|Re: IT FLOATS!|Congrats to Carl and Kate on your launch! I hope we can cross paths in the strait this summer in our respective BS 36ers and have a "gam". I'll be coming over to Vancouver Island in "Shaïr" around August 19th from Vancouver to Nanaimo. If any other BS boats are in the vicinity at that time it would be fun to have a rendezvous in the harbour! Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. > Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. > Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. > > Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. > Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. > Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. > > Carl & Kate > | 14019|13880|2007-08-07 12:41:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: hull shape|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot > > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube > > twice as long. > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That > is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior > - is quadrupled. > > I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer > doesn't know that. > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > power While I agree with the bulk of what you say, this bit simply isn't true. There have been a lot of vessels cut in half & lengthened, using the same power plant. Not sailboats tho - getting the keel etc sorted is a problem if you do a cut & stetch. However, stretching one on the lofting floor is quite common. Limit seems to ba about a 20% stretch before other things start getting serious. However I, too, don't think you can just add another 20' into the middle section of a 36' vessel and get something that sails properly. The basic philosophy (long & narrow) is what George Buehler used to advocate tho, back when he designed simple sailboats rather than expensive 'troller' powerboats. PDW| 14020|14017|2007-08-07 12:42:21|Tom|Re: Keel Welding advice wanted|Hello Paul If I was doing it I would and on my single keel I did. I cant see any reason why not to do it. I would just use 6011 and bend the rods a little to get a better angle in the corners. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keel Welding advice wanted > Hi folks, > > I've got my 2 keels tacked together for my BS 26. I'm welding the > keel bottoms to the sides along the outside edge. The keels are small, > only 2 feet deep, so I thought I could also weld the sides to the > bottom on the inside. It would be pretty easy with a drag rod. Any > compelling reason not to do this? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14021|13880|2007-08-07 12:42:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|In most offshore cruising boats designed for couples, you need almost the exact same interior component, regardless of length. eg: head, shower, water heater, head sink, stove, ice box/fridge, water tanks, galley sinks, galley table, settee, nav station, engine, fuel tanks, workbench, etc. etc. If anything, as the boat gets shorter, it gets harder and harder to cram all this into the boat, taking more and more fitting and redesign. A longer hull allows you the room to fit all these components in without a complicated and cramped interior design Take a wooden block, 1 inch on a side. The volume is 1 in3, the area is 6 in2. Place two of these blocks together on a face, doubling the length. The volume is doubled to 2 in3, but the area is only increased to 10 in2 (not 12 - because two of the faces are now hidden). Using your example, when you double the length, you only increase the surface by 1.67. This is another example of the economy of building longer. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 5:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube > twice as long. The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior - is quadrupled. I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer doesn't know that. There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving power - i.e., a larger engine and more (much more - and heavier) rigging. This, in turn, implies much heavier fittings to anchor that rigging. Speaking of anchors, _their_ size more than doubles - take a look at the recommendations per foot of boat length in, say, the West Marine catalog. Oh, and when you go to a dock or haul out at a yard, those fees will be much, much higher. Doubling the length of a boat is not quite the trivial change that it's made out to be. In fact, in all my experience, every additional three feet of length (I'm speaking of boats in the 20-40 foot range here) approximately doubles *all* boat-related costs. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14022|14003|2007-08-07 12:43:55|kingsknight4life|Re: comfortable motion in a 36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > From my experience on Silas Crosby, a BS 36, the motion of the 36 > footer is just perfect, arm-chair comfort in many conditions. I'm > taking possession of another 36 footer August 15th, twin-keeled > aft-cabin model also, and will report to you all on it's comfort at > sea as soon as I get it to Vancouver Island. > > Alex > Alex Did you buy the boat listed in this months boat journal? I tried to talk giving up our current but uncompleted boat for this one but to no avail. Sounded like a good deal. Rowland [Nope, this one was in Craigslist last month. What are the details about the one in the boatjournal? Alex]| 14023|14023|2007-08-07 12:48:29|Jonathan Stevens|6011 rods found in UK|Yes, I have managed to find a supplier at last. They are Elmdale Welding and Engineering Supplies ltd, 3 Sunhaven Ind Est, Whapload Road, Lowestoft, Suffolk NR32 1UE Tel 01502 562230. The product is ESAB “NUFIVE” EN150 2560-A. They come in a vacuum packed 20kg tin. The list price is over £170 ex VAT; I paid £133.38 plus VAT i.e. £156.72. My wife has her evening class Italian tonight so as I am on babysitting duty, I will have to wait till tomorrow to do a test piece or two.. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14024|13880|2007-08-08 03:47:39|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far sight from a tube. I had the occasion to sail a very similar Huntingford 51 to the 54 I had, but mine was the later design. The 51 was very similar in layout, but far less beamy, and it was wetter than hell, and much more tender than my own boat. For blue water cruising, I'm fairly confident that in a given material for a given displacement there is a 'moderate' hull design that most designers do not stray far from, for a good reason. In the ocean, for anything but racing, you need a good 'all around' boat, strongly built, and comfortable to be in. The tradeoffs are many, but necessary nonetheless. You can't just throw on more length without consequences, everything affects everything else, its a balanced design you're after imho. I've sailed the long, thin bulb keeled/spoon bottomed boats and you couldn't give me one for deep water sailing. your mileage may vary. I've also sailed the thin, deep keeled boats and find the angle of heel not to my liking. Rail under is fun for about an hour, less than that if you need to use the head or are trying to cook. Something that will work thru the seas at about 25-30 degrees of heel, with a balanced helm, and enough beam to give decent accomodations (with deadrise to match), a handy rig etc., and i'm ready to settle in for a serious blue water jaunt. When you deviate too much in any direction..you pay for it. The Diesel duck is a helluva boat for the length at the dock and in moderate weather, but she rolls worse than a wiener without a bun in a seaway. On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) seer --- In origamiboats@..., "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot > > > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > > > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube > > > twice as long. > > > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That > > is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior > > - is quadrupled. > > > > I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer > > doesn't know that. > > > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the > > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > > power > > While I agree with the bulk of what you say, this bit simply isn't true. There have been a lot > of vessels cut in half & lengthened, using the same power plant. > > Not sailboats tho - getting the keel etc sorted is a problem if you do a cut & stetch. > However, stretching one on the lofting floor is quite common. Limit seems to ba about a > 20% stretch before other things start getting serious. > > However I, too, don't think you can just add another 20' into the middle section of a 36' > vessel and get something that sails properly. The basic philosophy (long & narrow) is what > George Buehler used to advocate tho, back when he designed simple sailboats rather than > expensive 'troller' powerboats. > > PDW > | 14025|14025|2007-08-08 03:48:11|kingsknight4life|Question for Greg|Hi Greg I went to your site and tried to read your articles on how to afford to cruise on your sailboat. I then signed up for the link and still haven't received the article(s)? I then tried e-mailing to no avail, am I missing someting or have you just been busy and/or away from your computer? I would like to read the articles, so if you can please contact me at my kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com or wildcatbjj e-mail adres above. thanks Rowland| 14026|14006|2007-08-08 03:48:36|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit instalation|I usually let the deck drop to make the bulwarks higher at the stern, for better drainage aft. The inside edges where they join the cockpit seats ,I prefer to put slightly lower than the ouside edges so water will drain towards the centreline, and into the cockpit well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent or ? > > When installing the cockpit does the aft end hold the same 2" slope on > the side decks or should they end up flat? > I have the extra drop for and aft and I set the slope for 2" it just > looked odd. > Aaron > | 14027|13880|2007-08-08 03:49:35|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|I met a lot of cruisers out in 52 footers who were hoping to get home and downsize to something more managable. That's one huge boat. Building a 36 footers is not that much more work or money than a 31 footer and 36 footers sell for more than 3 time the price of a 31. When you jump to a 40 footer it become a huge boat and costs go up exponentially. On the cruising grounds , boats over 40 feet tend to hang out for months in major ports , then make a big hop to the next one where they hang out for more months . Meanwhile the 36 footers and under are thoroughly gunkholing and exploring each area. It's just too big a hassle to get underway in the bigger boats. For narrow boats the super deep draft severly limits where they can cruise. My Aussi Uncle said that the entire east coast of Aussi is rivermouths. If you draw less than 5 feet and can dry out, you can anchor in totally calm water , while deeper boats are out rolling in ocean swell. Jack , who did a circumnavigation in one of my 36 footers said much of the world is that way. With narrow Dashew type boats reasonably shallow draft is simply not an option. I remember seeingh them barely in the harbour entrance while the more normal boats were well inside in far more secure anchorages. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The T-Bird is not a narrow boat and has nothing to do with offshore. It is > an example of how other materials are advantaged as boat size decreases. > > A T-Bird can be purchased used for very little $$ and will blow the doors > off most similarly sized boats around the buoys. For many sailors it will > prove more enjoyable than a steel boat of similar length and typically can > be purchased for less than the cost of building. > > The question of narrow boats came about because origami is a great technique > for producing hulls to any length you wish, with minimal extra work. > > The simple fact is that in origami it doesn't take much more time or effort > to fold a 52 foot hull than a 26 foot hull, especially if you keep the beam > and headroom relatively unchanged. > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 foot > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a tube > twice as long. > > However, the market value of a 52 foot hull is typically much more than 2 > times the resale value of a 26 foot hull. It will typically be more like > 5-10 times. > > So, if you are going to take years of your life to build a boat, why not > take advantage of the economics or origami and make your time worth > something? All too often when building boats, the end result is something > that could have been purchased for less than the cost of materials that went > into the boat. > > The number of amateur builders that have actually build a boat for less than > could have purchased that same boat is few and far between, once they add up > all the costs. There are those that claim they have, but when you look > closely, you find many hidden or otherwise subsidized costs. > > The shorter the boat, the more likely you can purchase for less than the > cost of building. The longer the boat, the more likely you can build > something in origami that will be worth more than the cost of building. > > As well, there is no comparison in sailing a 52 foot hull versus a 26 foot > hull. The added waterline and stability make a huge difference in speed and > boat motion. It is like night and day. > > A 52 foot boat with 10 foot beam is not going to roll more than an 26 foot > boat with 10 foot beam. That idea is false. With similar hull sections, > the 52 foot will roll less and the difference in pitching and hobby horsing > will be fantastic. This difference in pitching motion is also especially > important at anchor. > > The 52 footer will be much faster, with a hull speed of 9+ knots, allowing > you to better avoid bad weather. In any sort of weather a 52x10 hull will > blow by a 26x10 hull. More often than not, the folks on the 26 footer will > hanging over the side puking their guts up due to the motion, while those on > the 52 are sitting comfortably on deck enjoying the sail. > > Don't take anyone's word for this. Get out on the water and discover this > for yourselves. The number of people that have spent years building, only > to discover terminal seasickness when they take their boat on the water is > legendary. For cruising couples, the extra hull length is a godsend, as it > provides the required privacy from time to time to prevent divorce. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 3:40 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > The BS 26 has full headroom and is liveable .It has the interior room > of an Alberg 30 .The T bird is crawling headroom only, and not all > that liveable.This comparison is a good demonstration of the fallacy > of narrow boats . > Narrow boats that are much longer have little if any increase in > interior space from a shorter ,more traditional shape. > One BS26 sailed thru the NW passage in a single season and another > sailed from BC to Australia, some thing I'd never attempt in a T bird. > A friend sailed a T bird from BC to Frisco and said it was a > nightmare. The motion at sea was horrendous.They are designed for day > racing and the odd overnight cruise. > Deadrise has as much to do with following the wave shape as beam.T > birds have little deadrise. > People have tried extremely deep narrow boats in the round the world > race , with dismal results. > I saw one T bird built in aluminium tho , and I'm surprised it isn't > more common.It's somewhere in Comox. Easy to do in origami. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "greg elliott" wrote: > > > > T-Bird > > > > Overall Length: 25' 11-3/4" (7.89 m) > > Maximum Beam: 7' 6-1/2" (2.30 m) > > Mast Height (above WL): 37' 10-1/4" (11.54 m) > > Draft: 4' 9-1/2" (1.46 m) > > Displacement: 3,650 lbs (1,656 kg) > > Ballast (Keel): 1530 lbs (694 kg) > > Sail Area (100% fore triangle) 308 sq. ft. (28.61 sq. m) > > > > The BS 26 at 6700 lbs is more than twice the weight. The smaller > > you make a boat, the more penalty there is in using steel. > > > > If you have all the time in the world, or you always sail off the > > wind, or are willing to motor, then it really doesn't matter what > > shape the boat has or what material you use. > > > > Downwind in a blow, a barge with a sail will perform as well as most > > sailboats. Upwind, light airs, it is a different story. > > > > Boats are made beamy for many reasons, very few of which are to do > > with offshore sailing. > > > > A beamy boat with a low ballast displacement (B/D) ratio offshore > > will roll your guts out with every wave. A narrow boat with a high > > B/D ratio hardly rolls at all. > > > > The reason is simple. As a wave passes, the beamy boat will be > > tilted by the surface of the wave, and it lacks ballast to resist. > > > > The narrow boat presents much less beam for the wave to act upon, > > and has much more ballast to resist the tilting force of the the > > wave. > > > > As well, the low B/D ratio boat will synchronize to larger (higher > > energy) waves than the high B/D raio boat, making the low B/D ratio > > boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize. Exactly what you > > don't want offshore. > > > > Greg > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, aaron riis > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent's 26 footer at 6700 lbs weighs just a little > > > more than a T-bird. There is way more interior space > > > in > > > Brent's boat. I believe that with the T-bird most of > > > the weight is in the deep fin keel, whereas the balast > > > in Brent's 26 is around one third of the hull weight. > > > I bought an old T-bird that was rotten, collected the > > > jewelry off of it, took the hull to the dump and built > > > one of Brent's 26 footers. > > > > > > Aaron > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > I heard Dashew is writing a new book called " How to > > > > Cruise on Ten > > > > Thousand Dollars a Day." His books are written on > > > > the assumption that > > > > most cruisers are filthy rich. The boats he > > > > advocates are anything > > > > but cheap. His theories about bigger boats being > > > > cheaper have > > > > totally failed in practise. > > > > Narrow boats heel excesively when going to windward > > > > , which is why > > > > racing boats have gotten beamier and thus faster to > > > > windward. > > > > I agree . It doesn't make sense to go to sea in a > > > > 40 foter. A 36 > > > > footer is totally adequate. > > > > Narrow boats roll excessively in a following sea, > > > > making for very > > > > uncomfortable downwind passages, which is to say , > > > > most ocean pasages. > > > > The narrower the boat the less structural benefit > > > > you get from > > > > longitudinals . > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dashew among others makes a very good case for why > > > > offshore boats > > > > should be > > > > > long and lean. > > > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Hull speed varies as root of length. - speed > > > > is very helpful > > > > to out-run > > > > > bad weather and other dangers. > > > > > 2. Capacity varies as displacement, not length. > > > > > 3. Cost of construction varies as displacement, > > > > not length. > > > > > 4. It is quicker to build accommodations down the > > > > length of a hull > > > > than > > > > > athwart ships. > > > > > 5. Origami is perfectly suited to building long > > > > lean boats, > > > > because they > > > > > are essentially longitudinally framed hulls, where > > > > the frames are > > > > installed > > > > > on the flat. > > > > > > > > > > So, for example, given two 15 ton displacement > > > > boats, they will > > > > have equal > > > > > capacity, cost about the same to build, but the > > > > longer one will be > > > > faster on > > > > > the water and be quicker to finish inside. Short > > > > boats make sense > > > > at a > > > > > dock. They do not make sense at anchor, or > > > > offshore. > > > > > > > > > > At 50 feet in steel a boat has only a small > > > > weight penalty as > > > > compare to > > > > > alternative materials. However, as you shrink the > > > > design, steel > > > > starts > > > > > adding a weight penalty because you need to keep > > > > the material thick > > > > to avoid > > > > > buckling and allow for corrosion. This leads to > > > > weight problems, > > > > requiring > > > > > the beam to be increased, requiring a bigger mast, > > > > ballast, engine, > > > > sails, > > > > > rigging, winches, tanks, etc. etc. etc. All of > > > > these add costs, > > > > reducing > > > > > the economy of steel. > > > > > > > > > > The shorter the boat, the greater the weight > > > > penalty when building > > > > in steel, > > > > > the more economical it becomes to select other > > > > materials. For > > > > example, at > > > > > 26 feet in ply, a T-Bird is a great design. It > > > > would be near > > > > impossible to > > > > > build in steel to a similar strength, without > > > > significantly > > > > increasing the > > > > > weight and costs, and cutting performance, > > > > capacity and stability. > > > > > > > > > > A modern 50 footer with near plumb ends has a hull > > > > speed of 9+ > > > > knots. The > > > > > offshore performance hulls such as the French have > > > > pioneered can > > > > likely be > > > > > done in origami without any chines. Off the wind > > > > they will go even > > > > faster. > > > > > > > > > > To me, a sub 40 footer in steel doesn't make sense > > > > for offshore. > > > > Build a > > > > > long, lean, origami hull, same displacement but > > > > much longer, it > > > > will cost > > > > > about the same to build, the interior will be > > > > easier to fit > > > > everything into, > > > > > and the hull speed will go up, along with the > > > > directional > > > > stability. Add a > > > > > twin mast, equal height rig, furling sails all > > > > around. Simple to > > > > adjust > > > > > sail, none of the sails are too large for one > > > > person to manage. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:51 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That thing looks to be about 80 to 85 feet....and > > > > those are > > > > powerboat > > > > > foils, don't know that I'd go so far as to call > > > > them 'keels' LOL. > > > > > In any event, I must be missing something, how > > > > does that translate > > > > to > > > > > a sub 40 footer? :) > > > > > > > > > > Interesting design to be sure, 85 feet getting you > > > > 11 or 12 knots? > > > > > what a design breakthru....:) and the bottom > > > > appears to be > > > > essentially > > > > > flat...I'd like to spend a few hours on her in > > > > varying conditions, > > > > > would be interesting to see how she rides. > > > > > > > > > > Lastly, wonder what all those windows are made of? > > > > I've been in a > > > > few > > > > > storms that would threaten the integrity of such > > > > large amounts of > > > > glass.. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > We typically let the customer choose the keel > > > > configuration. If > > > > you are > > > > > > referring to the Sara C, the center keel is a > > > > girder to support > > > > the > > > > > hull and > > > > > > protect the prop. The small bilge boards are for > > > > roll damping and > > > > > to allow > > > > > > the boat to self-stand. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > > > > > > > > > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm> > > > > > agic.com/boats/Sara_C47/sara_c47.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is an offshore design with 3 keels. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.setsail. > > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html> > > > > > com/dashew/do_paradigm.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > _______________ > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > > > that gives answers, not web links. > > > http://mobile. > > yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14028|13978|2007-08-08 03:49:48|jim dorey|Re: rivets system|Wally Paine wrote: > > My host was an engineer and in a discussion with > respect to using it as a boat building material we > concluded that it would be difficult to join and also > to repair. yeh, i was ignoring the repair thing, i figure it could be worked out somehow, the joining, well, i was thinking more along the lines of building the hull of two layers, then filling between the layers with foam, even doing a half assed riveting there would be no leaks with the right kind of foam.| 14029|13880|2007-08-08 03:49:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: hull shape|On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 10:22:04PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > Take a wooden block, 1 inch on a side. The volume is 1 in3, the area is 6 > in2. Place two of these blocks together on a face, doubling the length. > The volume is doubled to 2 in3, but the area is only increased to 10 in2 > (not 12 - because two of the faces are now hidden). That's very nice illustration of... something, I'm sure. Basic geometry, perhaps. Unfortunately for your illustration, it has nothing to do with boats - since doubling the length of one does not involve welding (or nailing) the bow of one to the stern of the other; in other words, there are no faces to be eliminated. There _are_ much heavier scantlings required, bigger lines, heavier accessories, much higher costs, etc. There is such a thing as economy of scale. There's no such thing as a free lunch. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14030|13880|2007-08-08 03:50:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: hull shape|On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 03:14:43AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the > > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > > power > > While I agree with the bulk of what you say, this bit simply isn't > true. There have been a lot of vessels cut in half & lengthened, using > the same power plant. Certainly - but (pardon me for stating the obvious) their power-to-weight ratio was decreased proportionately. Assuming that they weren't overpowered in the first place, this would now make them underpowered. > Not sailboats tho - getting the keel etc sorted is a problem if you do a cut & stetch. > However, stretching one on the lofting floor is quite common. Limit seems to ba about a > 20% stretch before other things start getting serious. Yep. Many designers - including George Buehler, whose "Backyard Boats" used to be one of my favorite bits of reading - cite 20% as a max stretch in lofting for a given design. Doubling, though, isn't going to work (unless you have something like Phil Bolger's stitch-and-glue design, which has been built in sizes from 8 to 50 feet (!)). -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14031|13880|2007-08-08 03:50:15|polaris041|Re: hull shape|If you would care to express formulae in a more conventional manner .e.g. 6² ÷ ¾ × 4³ = ± 360° so `basic' illiterates like me can read them here is a link. http://www.forlang.wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp It's neither © or ® Might be useful to some. Regards pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@ wrote: SNIP. > > > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). . SNIP > > PDW > | 14032|13880|2007-08-08 03:53:12|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|Double the length of anything and you double the surface. This treats a hull as a living space only ( winnebago priorities)and disregards sailing issues. I agree that extremes in either too much beam or too little is a big mistake. Modration is the key to getting a good boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > In most offshore cruising boats designed for couples, you need almost the > exact same interior component, regardless of length. > > eg: head, shower, water heater, head sink, stove, ice box/fridge, water > tanks, galley sinks, galley table, settee, nav station, engine, fuel tanks, > workbench, etc. etc. > > If anything, as the boat gets shorter, it gets harder and harder to cram all > this into the boat, taking more and more fitting and redesign. A longer > hull allows you the room to fit all these components in without a > complicated and cramped interior design > > Take a wooden block, 1 inch on a side. The volume is 1 in3, the area is 6 > in2. Place two of these blocks together on a face, doubling the length. > The volume is doubled to 2 in3, but the area is only increased to 10 in2 > (not 12 - because two of the faces are now hidden). > > Using your example, when you double the length, you only increase the > surface by 1.67. This is another example of the economy of building longer. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 5:58 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 > foot > > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a > tube > > twice as long. > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That > is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior > - is quadrupled. > > I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer > doesn't know that. > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > power - i.e., a larger engine and more (much more - and heavier) > rigging. This, in turn, implies much heavier fittings to anchor that > rigging. Speaking of anchors, _their_ size more than doubles - take a > look at the recommendations per foot of boat length in, say, the West > Marine catalog. Oh, and when you go to a dock or haul out at a yard, > those fees will be much, much higher. > > Doubling the length of a boat is not quite the trivial change that it's > made out to be. In fact, in all my experience, every additional three > feet of length (I'm speaking of boats in the 20-40 foot range here) > approximately doubles *all* boat-related costs. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14033|13880|2007-08-08 17:38:03|edward_stoneuk|Re: hull shape|Before I started building a BS36 I considered building one of Tom Colvin's well regarded blue water cruiser design "Gazelle". I bought the study plans and discussed it with friends. The Gazelle is 42' long, 11' 4" beam, 3' 10" draft more or less. I didn't go ahead with building it for several reasons. At 42' plus the bowsprit, mooring and marina charges would be high and we expect to spend more time inshore than offshore. A friend who had crewed on one said although it went very well it was a nightmare to manouevre in crowded waters, especially with its long keel and bowsprit sticking out. The manager of the marina where it was berthed would send a boat out to bring it in. I was also concerned at my welding ability allowing me to weld the relatively thin hull plate to the frames and finish with a sleek gazelle rather than a hungry horse. That said, to my eyes it is a lovely looking boat. Regards, Ted| 14034|13880|2007-08-08 17:41:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: hull shape|On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 10:13:53PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > If you would care to express formulae in a more conventional > manner .e.g. > > 6² ÷ ¾ × 4³ = ± 360° so `basic' illiterates like me can read them > here is a link. Pol, I'm afraid that you're laboring under a misconception: what you're calling the "more conventional manner" is no such thing in email. Email is a text-only medium; that's the only thing that it's guaranteed to deliver accurately. Therefore, the traditional convention - even among mathematicians, who have to quote complex formulae [1] - is to use plain text, just as I have. [1] E.g., the quadratic formula would be written like this: x=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a} This is referred to as "TeX style" - and clearly, still plain text. > http://www.forlang.wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp If you read that page carefully, you'll note that it specifically says "Microsoft Standard English (United States 101) Keyboard". In a group that has a number of Canadian members - some who are possibly Francophones - that should have been enough of a hint. :) In addition, that page says "Not all characters are available in all font faces or in all browsers - the following table is based on the Times-New Roman or Arial font face and Internet Explorer v5.5". A number of people here are likely using Linux, or perhaps MacOS; this will certainly not be "conventional" for them. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14035|14035|2007-08-08 17:43:23|Ray|Bilge-Keel power question|Thinking about a few things after watching two large boats, one a twin-engined power cruiser, the other a single engined sailboat, docking this past week. Both boats approached their slips @ the same time, under power, w/a mild breeze (about 5kts) blowing. The power cruiser, by bumping his drives into & out of gear, was able to quite easily and slowly maneuver his boat into position to back into his slip. The sailboat had a devil of a time of it - and after the 3rd attempt, was able to snag a piling w/a bowline, and then "walk" his boat in reverse to a point at which they were able to toss a sternline to someone on the dock, and then pull the boat by hand backwards into the slip. This got me to thinking about having a twin drive of sorts on a BS36. There are several power/transmission combinations that could provide this - but, my questions are: What would be the effect of installing the drives from the bilge keels, .vs. the "normal" location? Having never operated a vessel w/a bow thruster - which is "better" in a boat this size?| 14036|13880|2007-08-08 17:43:31|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|As someone coming "down" in size from 54 to about 43, I agree for the most part with Brent. I'm losing ten feet or so, but that's also a little over 25k displacement which means just less than half the boat!!! There will always be a debate on how big is big enough, and there is some relative scale here. Everyone has their own needs, and imho there is no 'one size fits all'. First, its a matter of are you going to make this boat your home, or just take some trips. and how many on the boat...second, simplicity of rig or not, third ability of sailor and/or crew, fourth where r u going and what kind of conditions are you comfortable sailing in. Straight out, I'll tell you that sailing a 45 is a piece of cake once you've solo'd a 55ish. I'm sure people coming down from 45's to 36's would echo the same sentiment. However, I've met a lot of people in 30'ish boats that can't wait to get into the 40's. Experienced sailors also get caught up in the creeping 'just one more foot' "itis", especially the packrats. Not everyone is as spartan at sea as Brent.:) If you're the kind that likes to entertain, and take an extra couple along every now and then, then all bets are off, into the forties you go in a hurry, or they better be hellaciously 'close' friends..... Brent is absolutely right about draft tho...it separates a huge part of the pack. There's an amazing amount of really intriguing water that you are just not going into outside the dinghy if you're six feet deep or over..The twin keel ability to take the ground is serious icing on the shallow draft cake. The open sea is a wonderful place, for awhile, :) but its near land where the fun stuff is :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I met a lot of cruisers out in 52 footers who were hoping to get home > and downsize to something more managable. That's one huge boat. > Building a 36 footers is not that much more work or money than a 31 > footer and 36 footers sell for more than 3 time the price of a 31. > When you jump to a 40 footer it become a huge boat and costs go up > exponentially. ll versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to| 14037|13933|2007-08-08 17:43:44|Ray|Re: IT FLOATS!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. > Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. > Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. > > Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. > Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. > Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. > > Carl & Kate > Congrats! Any launch photos? Did she "behave" the way you expected?| 14038|14023|2007-08-08 17:46:46|sae140|Re: 6011 rods found in UK|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > Yes, I have managed to find a supplier at last. They are Elmdale Welding and > Engineering Supplies ltd, 3 Sunhaven Ind Est, Whapload Road, Lowestoft, > Suffolk NR32 1UE Tel 01502 562230. The product is ESAB "NUFIVE" EN150 > 2560-A. They come in a vacuum packed 20kg tin. The list price is over £170 > ex VAT; I paid £133.38 plus VAT i.e. £156.72. > Hi Jonathan Tony Hayden, T H Welding, 17 Dicker Mill Hertford, Herts, SG13 7AE 01992 503553 Also supply Lincoln NuFive's (6011) in 20Kg tins, for around £166 plus Vat and carriage. They're offering 20% discount at present, but still too rich for my blood. Colin| 14039|13880|2007-08-08 17:48:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|the surface area only doubles for a surface aligned in the direction you are doubling. if the surface is at an angle, the increase is less. if the surface is perpendicular to the direction you are doubling, the increase in area is zero. Lots of boats designs are driven by racing rules. Most of these penalized narrow boats, resulting in overly beamy boats - which then become the "accepted norm". Other boats are optimized for accommodations while at dock. Dorade is the classic example of the benefits of narrow beam. (52 x 10'3"). http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/design/past_design.html As I recall it was the New York Racing Club that made her uncompetitive through a rule change (Narrow Beam Penalty). Designing offshore cruising boats to satisfy racing rules, or to take advantage of dockside rental rates, never struck me as a good idea. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 1:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Double the length of anything and you double the surface. This treats a hull as a living space only ( winnebago priorities)and disregards sailing issues. I agree that extremes in either too much beam or too little is a big mistake. Modration is the key to getting a good boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > In most offshore cruising boats designed for couples, you need almost the > exact same interior component, regardless of length. > > eg: head, shower, water heater, head sink, stove, ice box/fridge, water > tanks, galley sinks, galley table, settee, nav station, engine, fuel tanks, > workbench, etc. etc. > > If anything, as the boat gets shorter, it gets harder and harder to cram all > this into the boat, taking more and more fitting and redesign. A longer > hull allows you the room to fit all these components in without a > complicated and cramped interior design > > Take a wooden block, 1 inch on a side. The volume is 1 in3, the area is 6 > in2. Place two of these blocks together on a face, doubling the length. > The volume is doubled to 2 in3, but the area is only increased to 10 in2 > (not 12 - because two of the faces are now hidden). > > Using your example, when you double the length, you only increase the > surface by 1.67. This is another example of the economy of building longer. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 5:58 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to build a 52 > foot > > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to finish the > > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply making a > tube > > twice as long. > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That > is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the interior > - is quadrupled. > > I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht designer > doesn't know that. > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for example, the > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > power - i.e., a larger engine and more (much more - and heavier) > rigging. This, in turn, implies much heavier fittings to anchor that > rigging. Speaking of anchors, _their_ size more than doubles - take a > look at the recommendations per foot of boat length in, say, the West > Marine catalog. Oh, and when you go to a dock or haul out at a yard, > those fees will be much, much higher. > > Doubling the length of a boat is not quite the trivial change that it's > made out to be. In fact, in all my experience, every additional three > feet of length (I'm speaking of boats in the 20-40 foot range here) > approximately doubles *all* boat-related costs. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14040|13880|2007-08-08 21:15:48|polaris041|Re: hull shape|Well Ben you lost me with all that talk. When I look at the post on the forum and the email version of what arrived here of my post it looks nothing like what you reproduced in your reply, with all the Ã. I'm in australia, my mate in Newzealand can read it, even the French guy down the street sees what I see, so we will just put it down to the vagaries of the internet and get back to boats. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 10:13:53PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > If you would care to express formulae in a more conventional > > manner .e.g. > > > > 6² ÷ ¾ × 4³ = ± 360° so `basic' illiterates like me can read them > > here is a link. > > Pol, I'm afraid that you're laboring under a misconception: what you're > calling the "more conventional manner" is no such thing in email. Email > is a text-only medium; that's the only thing that it's guaranteed to > deliver accurately. Therefore, the traditional convention - even among > mathematicians, who have to quote complex formulae [1] - is to use plain > text, just as I have. > > [1] E.g., the quadratic formula would be written like this: > > x=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a} > > This is referred to as "TeX style" - and clearly, still plain text. > > > http://www.forlang.wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp > > If you read that page carefully, you'll note that it specifically says > "Microsoft Standard English (United States 101) Keyboard". In a group > that has a number of Canadian members - some who are possibly > Francophones - that should have been enough of a hint. :) In addition, > that page says "Not all characters are available in all font faces or in > all browsers - the following table is based on the Times-New Roman or > Arial font face and Internet Explorer v5.5". A number of people here are > likely using Linux, or perhaps MacOS; this will certainly not be > "conventional" for them. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14041|13880|2007-08-08 21:15:52|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape|Hi, why not simply hand-write the formulas, scan them and insert into (or attach) to the email? :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 4:50 PM To: Origami Boat list Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 10:13:53PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > If you would care to express formulae in a more conventional > manner .e.g. > > 6² ÷ ¾ × 4³ = ± 360° so `basic' illiterates like me can read them > here is a link. Pol, I'm afraid that you're laboring under a misconception: what you're calling the "more conventional manner" is no such thing in email. Email is a text-only medium; that's the only thing that it's guaranteed to deliver accurately. Therefore, the traditional convention - even among mathematicians, who have to quote complex formulae [1] - is to use plain text, just as I have. [1] E.g., the quadratic formula would be written like this: x=\frac{-b\pm\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a} This is referred to as "TeX style" - and clearly, still plain text. > http://www.forlang. wsu.edu/help/keyboards.asp If you read that page carefully, you'll note that it specifically says "Microsoft Standard English (United States 101) Keyboard". In a group that has a number of Canadian members - some who are possibly Francophones - that should have been enough of a hint. :) In addition, that page says "Not all characters are available in all font faces or in all browsers - the following table is based on the Times-New Roman or Arial font face and Internet Explorer v5.5". A number of people here are likely using Linux, or perhaps MacOS; this will certainly not be "conventional" for them. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14042|14042|2007-08-08 21:15:56|Nels Tomlinson|Is there a Brent boat in Juneau, Alaska?|Luckystar, Sausalito CA, is in Harris harbor here in Juneau. It is a dead ringer for a Swain boat. Anyone know about it? Is the owner on this list? Nels| 14043|14025|2007-08-08 21:15:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Question for Greg|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi Greg > > I went to your site and tried to read your articles on how to afford > to cruise on your sailboat. I then signed up for the link and still > haven't received the article(s)? I then tried e-mailing to no avail, > am I missing someting or have you just been busy and/or away from your > computer? > > I would like to read the articles, so if you can please contact me at > my kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com or wildcatbjj e-mail adres above. > > thanks Rowland TTT > | 14044|14044|2007-08-08 21:17:48|Alex Christie|boat space required|Seeking space on Vancouver Island to finish welding work on a twin-keel conversion and pilot-house addition onto a steel Colvin boat -- anyone with an acreage with space please contact me at achristie@... Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14045|14035|2007-08-09 01:04:13|Alex Christie|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|Even twin screws, bow-thrusters and stern-thrusters won't prevent an inexperienced skipper from "screwing" up coming into a slip! I always remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! Hopefully I'll fare just as well next week when I pick up my single-screw Swain 36! It think it takes time, but one can learn to work a single screw boat quite well. Dependence on on twin screws will lead you into trouble if one of your engines packs it in! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge-Keel power question Thinking about a few things after watching two large boats, one a twin-engined power cruiser, the other a single engined sailboat, docking this past week. Both boats approached their slips @ the same time, under power, w/a mild breeze (about 5kts) blowing. The power cruiser, by bumping his drives into & out of gear, was able to quite easily and slowly maneuver his boat into position to back into his slip. The sailboat had a devil of a time of it - and after the 3rd attempt, was able to snag a piling w/a bowline, and then "walk" his boat in reverse to a point at which they were able to toss a sternline to someone on the dock, and then pull the boat by hand backwards into the slip. This got me to thinking about having a twin drive of sorts on a BS36. There are several power/transmission combinations that could provide this - but, my questions are: What would be the effect of installing the drives from the bilge keels, .vs. the "normal" location? Having never operated a vessel w/a bow thruster - which is "better" in a boat this size? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: 08/08/2007 5:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14046|13880|2007-08-09 01:05:19|peter_d_wiley|Re: hull shape|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > sight from a tube. Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for a POGO I bought off of George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are done. George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me comfortable. I'm firmly in Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal draft is the way to go. Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable practical max. Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or freighter with a U shaped midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT underpowered once stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened freighters etc take longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but there's sufficient power to reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it works - for freighters, tankers etc. . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, there are a few people I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to spend another 4 months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. PDW| 14047|13880|2007-08-09 01:05:40|David A. Frantz|Re: hull shape|As someone that doesn't currently own a boat of any sort I find this size discussion intriguing. It is a discussion I've had with some of the boaters at work, at least in our economic group the answers have more to do with economics than anything. Of course none of these people are do it your selfers with respect to boat build or overhaul. Being a bit on the large size one of my concerns is head room. That is at what length does it become easy to provide for a good 6 feet 4 inches of head clearance in the main salon? I realize that other parts of the boat would suffer head room wise but having a cockpit and at least one living area with that much clearance would seem to make for a much more livable boat. Of course the cockpit may very well have no roof or a soft one which eliminates that issue. Since I'm in the great lakes area the idea of shallow draft is important also. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > As someone coming "down" in size from 54 to about 43, I agree for the > most part with Brent. I'm losing ten feet or so, but that's also a > little over 25k displacement which means just less than half the > boat!!! There will always be a debate on how big is big enough, and > there is some relative scale here. Everyone has their own needs, and > imho there is no 'one size fits all'. > > First, its a matter of are you going to make this boat your home, or > just take some trips. and how many on the boat...second, simplicity of > rig or not, third ability of sailor and/or crew, fourth where r u > going and what kind of conditions are you comfortable sailing in. > Straight out, I'll tell you that sailing a 45 is a piece of cake once > you've solo'd a 55ish. I'm sure people coming down from 45's to 36's > would echo the same sentiment. However, I've met a lot of people in > 30'ish boats that can't wait to get into the 40's. Experienced sailors > also get caught up in the creeping 'just one more foot' "itis", > especially the packrats. Not everyone is as spartan at sea as > Brent.:) If you're the kind that likes to entertain, and take an > extra couple along every now and then, then all bets are off, into the > forties you go in a hurry, or they better be hellaciously 'close' > friends..... > > Brent is absolutely right about draft tho...it separates a huge part > of the pack. There's an amazing amount of really intriguing water > that you are just not going into outside the dinghy if you're six feet > deep or over..The twin keel ability to take the ground is serious > icing on the shallow draft cake. The open sea is a wonderful place, > for awhile, :) but its near land where the fun stuff is :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "brentswain38" ...> > wrote: > > > > I met a lot of cruisers out in 52 footers who were hoping to get home > > and downsize to something more managable. That's one huge boat. > > Building a 36 footers is not that much more work or money than a 31 > > footer and 36 footers sell for more than 3 time the price of a 31. > > When you jump to a 40 footer it become a huge boat and costs go up > > exponentially. > > ll versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to > > | 14048|13880|2007-08-09 01:07:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: hull shape|On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 10:32:50PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Well Ben you lost me with all that talk. I'll try a simpler version, then: you and your friends may see that Microsoft stuff, but other people won't. So, no, I'm not going to use these non-standard characters. > When I look at the post on the forum and the email version of what > arrived here of my post it looks nothing like what you reproduced in > your reply, with all the Ã. Believe it or not, I didn't add anything to it: that was just how the stuff came through the mail. Which was my point in the first place. > I'm in australia, my mate in Newzealand can read it, even the French > guy down the street sees what I see, so we will just put it down to > the vagaries of the internet and get back to boats. Sounds good to me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14049|14035|2007-08-09 01:08:44|seeratlas|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|Well, the simple answer is almost no one sweats a thruster on a boat under about 40 something. There is a technique on a single screw boat where you take advantage of the sideways torgue produced by the single screw. it involves going into forward and reverse, and depending on the nature of the boat, some skillful application of the rudder. Generally speaking, its something you need to go out and just practice, practice, practice in your own boat. Took me a long time to get it down with the 54 'Falcon', mostly cause the screw was far forward of the rudder and skeg, and slightly off to port...on a strut. In any event there is a certain satisfaction in singlehanding your boat into a tight slip when there's a little wind and current. All that being said, I've designed in my own hydraulic thruster for my new boat. :) Gotta tell you a story. One of the best 'chit eating grins' of my life was pullin, the falcon in solo, at night, to a crowded slip in front of one of the fanciest restaurants in Newport Beach Harbor, with the breeze going one way at 90 degrees to the slip, and the tidal current going about the same the opposite way. Got damned lucky is what happened :) as the restaurant was in a cul de sac, with a turning basin only a few feet longer than my boat, swinging it around about 270 degrees in those conditions in little more than its own length without hitting anyone was no small task in itself but I guestimated and walked it in like it was on a rail, making a big show of casually stepping off to tie up as she snugged up to a halt tho the truth of it was my heart was pounding away pretty good :). When I looked up, every eye of the diners on two glassed stories was on me :) and I think something like six congratulatory drinks arrived at the bar for me before I even made it there :). Was one of my life's 'kodak' moments and made for a helluva party icebreaker as I'd brought the boat down from San Pedro cause the restaurant's owner was throwing me a birthday party and I knew I wasn't going very far on my own legs when it was over :) hehehe. I'll leave out for now the part about the naked woman I found asleep below when I came back out to show a couple of friends the boat :)no kiddin. Few places on earth like Newport Harbor LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > Thinking about a few things after watching two large boats, one a > twin-engined power cruiser, the other a single engined sailboat, > docking this past week. > > Both boats approached their slips @ the same time, under power, w/a > mild breeze (about 5kts) blowing. The power cruiser, by bumping his > drives into & out of gear, was able to quite easily and slowly > maneuver his boat into position to back into his slip. > > The sailboat had a devil of a time of it - and after the 3rd > attempt, was able to snag a piling w/a bowline, and then "walk" his > boat in reverse to a point at which they were able to toss a > sternline to someone on the dock, and then pull the boat by hand > backwards into the slip. > > This got me to thinking about having a twin drive of sorts on a > BS36. There are several power/transmission combinations that could > provide this - but, my questions are: > > What would be the effect of installing the drives from the bilge > keels, .vs. the "normal" location? > > Having never operated a vessel w/a bow thruster - which is "better" > in a boat this size? > | 14050|14035|2007-08-09 01:47:35|David A. Frantz|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|Would not twin screws imply twin engines? I realize that you would have torque ot deal with but wouldn't one engine be better than none operating. Dave Alex Christie wrote: > > Even twin screws, bow-thrusters and stern-thrusters won't prevent an > inexperienced skipper from "screwing" up coming into a slip! I always > remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch > could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace > it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two > counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among > the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow > thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! Hopefully I'll fare just as well > next week when I pick up my single-screw Swain 36! It think it takes > time, but one can learn to work a single screw boat quite well. > Dependence on on twin screws will lead you into trouble if one of your > engines packs it in! > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:12 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge-Keel power question > > Thinking about a few things after watching two large boats, one a > twin-engined power cruiser, the other a single engined sailboat, > docking this past week. > > Both boats approached their slips @ the same time, under power, w/a > mild breeze (about 5kts) blowing. The power cruiser, by bumping his > drives into & out of gear, was able to quite easily and slowly > maneuver his boat into position to back into his slip. > > The sailboat had a devil of a time of it - and after the 3rd > attempt, was able to snag a piling w/a bowline, and then "walk" his > boat in reverse to a point at which they were able to toss a > sternline to someone on the dock, and then pull the boat by hand > backwards into the slip. > > This got me to thinking about having a twin drive of sorts on a > BS36. There are several power/transmission combinations that could > provide this - but, my questions are: > > What would be the effect of installing the drives from the bilge > keels, .vs. the "normal" location? > > Having never operated a vessel w/a bow thruster - which is "better" > in a boat this size? > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: > 08/08/2007 5:38 PM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14051|14042|2007-08-09 17:39:04|brentswain38|Re: Is there a Brent boat in Juneau, Alaska?|It's probably Tim's boat. It was built by Don Branscombe who worked for Scanmar, welding up monitor windvanes. He built it himself, before my book came out, using only a set of plans and taped instructions.Did a great job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Nels Tomlinson" wrote: > > Luckystar, Sausalito CA, is in Harris harbor here in Juneau. It is a > dead ringer for a Swain boat. Anyone know about it? Is the owner on > this list? > > Nels > | 14052|13880|2007-08-09 17:39:12|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|Buehlers boats are simple practical and functional. Their shape has improved lately. A Buehler marco polo built in Victoria many years ago was so tender due to excessive flare ,that when they put the masts in she heeled 30 degrees at the dock and stayed that way intil they pulled a mast out. Now his designs have far less flare and wider waterlines. I once knew a guy who preached flare and narrow waterlines . I was unable to point out to him that with a lot of flare, his designs were so tender that they sailed rail down most of the time , which made his waterlines as wide as boats with far less flare. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > sight from a tube. I had the occasion to sail a very similar > Huntingford 51 to the 54 I had, but mine was the later design. The 51 > was very similar in layout, but far less beamy, and it was wetter than > hell, and much more tender than my own boat. For blue water cruising, > I'm fairly confident that in a given material for a given displacement > there is a 'moderate' hull design that most designers do not stray far > from, for a good reason. In the ocean, for anything but racing, you > need a good 'all around' boat, strongly built, and comfortable to be > in. The tradeoffs are many, but necessary nonetheless. You can't just > throw on more length without consequences, everything affects > everything else, its a balanced design you're after imho. I've sailed > the long, thin bulb keeled/spoon bottomed boats and you couldn't give > me one for deep water sailing. your mileage may vary. I've also sailed > the thin, deep keeled boats and find the angle of heel not to my > liking. Rail under is fun for about an hour, less than that if you > need to use the head or are trying to cook. Something that will work > thru the seas at about 25-30 degrees of heel, with a balanced helm, > and enough beam to give decent accomodations (with deadrise to match), > a handy rig etc., and i'm ready to settle in for a serious blue water > jaunt. When you deviate too much in any direction..you pay for it. > The Diesel duck is a helluva boat for the length at the dock and in > moderate weather, but she rolls worse than a wiener without a bun in a > seaway. On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@..., "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 07:57:53AM -0700, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > If the beam and headroom is unchanged, the relative work to > build a 52 foot > > > > hull versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to > finish the > > > > interior is 2 times as much as well. Basically you are simply > making a tube > > > > twice as long. > > > > > > The amount of interior work is proportional to *surface*, not length. > > > Surface goes up as a *square* of the volume (e.g., for a cube the > > > equation is 'S = 6 * l^2' and for a sphere, 'S = 4 * pi * r^2'). That > > > is, when the length is doubled, the inside surface - i.e., the > interior > > > - is quadrupled. > > > > > > I'm a bit surprised that someone who is supposed to be a yacht > designer > > > doesn't know that. > > > > > > There are a few other "minor" factors involved: since, for > example, the > > > weight of the ship will be a lot higher, this requires more driving > > > power > > > > While I agree with the bulk of what you say, this bit simply isn't > true. There have been a lot > > of vessels cut in half & lengthened, using the same power plant. > > > > Not sailboats tho - getting the keel etc sorted is a problem if you > do a cut & stetch. > > However, stretching one on the lofting floor is quite common. Limit > seems to ba about a > > 20% stretch before other things start getting serious. > > > > However I, too, don't think you can just add another 20' into the > middle section of a 36' > > vessel and get something that sails properly. The basic philosophy > (long & narrow) is what > > George Buehler used to advocate tho, back when he designed simple > sailboats rather than > > expensive 'troller' powerboats. > > > > PDW > > > | 14053|14035|2007-08-09 17:39:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 06:14:43PM -0700, Alex Christie wrote: > Even twin screws, bow-thrusters and stern-thrusters won't prevent an > inexperienced skipper from "screwing" up coming into a slip! I always > remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch > could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace > it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two > counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among > the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow > thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! Hopefully I'll fare just as > well next week when I pick up my single-screw Swain 36! It think it > takes time, but one can learn to work a single screw boat quite well. > Dependence on on twin screws will lead you into trouble if one of your > engines packs it in! Since we're talking about sailboats, dependence on engines will often do you in - but since we have an alternate means of propulsion, we don't need to depend on them. It does take a bit of practice, though. :) When I was sailing my 34' Aloa, "Recessional", down in the Caribbean, the engine packed it in while I was in Puerto Rico. Since I was too broke to buy a new injector pump (Universal wanted $2k for a new one - they refused to sell me the 50 cents worth of springs necessary to repair it), I just sailed everywhere for the next couple of years, including up to docks, etc. It's not that hard once you put your mind to it - and sailing backwards by backwinding the main makes people's eyes pop out of their heads. :) Also, learning to intentionally drag anchor ("droghing", as they used to call it in the old days) is a very useful skill; it results from gradually shortening the scope of an anchor until the boat starts to move, then lengthening it to slow down as necessary. One time, I was coming up to a fuel dock in about 30kt of wind (Luperon, DR); I sailed to windward of it, dropped a light hook, and sloooowly dragged alongside before tying up. The other two captains there, who had used their engines to come up, had lost track of the fact that you can't power a boat sideways, had chewed the living hell out of their topsides on that dock... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Ur moderator Alex: Good point, Ben, what are those sails for anyhow??? hehehehe There is a couple on a BS36 on this coast who were in a similar fix with a busted engine -- they became quite accomplished sailors I think!]| 14054|13880|2007-08-09 17:43:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|As you stretch a design, the surface area increases slower than the volume, lightening the boat. At the same time, the scantlings increase, increasing the weight. In steel, the required increase in scantlings may be less than other materials, due to the corrosion allowance. The further you stretch the boat, the more likely these small changes will add up, and the boat won't sit on her lines. An adjustment to the lines or the ballast may be required. The greater the length to beam ratio, the easier it is for a displacement hull to exceed hull speed without planing. Thus it becomes possible to build fast cruising boats, without having to resort to exotic measures to reduce weight. Thus the narrow beam penalty for racing - narrow beam allows you to go faster without big $$. Besides being relatively immune to wave induced roll, as compared to beamy boats, and thus more comfortable offshore, a narrow boat is much less likely to remain inverted if capsized as compared to a beamy boat. This provides as added level of safety for the offshore cruiser. All boats are a compromise. For inshore, a beamy boat with less ballast is typically best. For offshore a narrow boat with lots of ballast is typically best. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > sight from a tube. Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for a POGO I bought off of George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are done. George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me comfortable. I'm firmly in Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal draft is the way to go. Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable practical max. Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or freighter with a U shaped midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT underpowered once stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened freighters etc take longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but there's sufficient power to reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it works - for freighters, tankers etc. . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, there are a few people I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to spend another 4 months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14056|14035|2007-08-12 14:54:03|kingsknight4life|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: "... Few places on earth > like Newport Harbor LOL." > > seer > I agree One of my good friends got married at the Balboa bay yacht club a couple years back,it's quite the snooty place, where the rich and famous hang out. I found a $100 bill on the floor so I figured I'd "spread the wealth" and buy my friends a round of drinks. FOUR drinks came to $92 (no typo here) so I gave the barender the 100 dollar bill and said keep the change. lol Easy come easy go. Needless to say no one else bought a round after that, good thing we had most of our fill at the weddings open bar. :) Rowland | 14057|14035|2007-08-12 14:54:31|kingsknight4life|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > ...I always remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! ...> > Alex > Alex Bev and I went for a day cruise on Thane and you're right on about Thane's skipper being able to handle that boat. He made it look really easy even in that crowded harbour. Rowland| 14058|14058|2007-08-12 14:54:36|Jonathan Stevens|Steel has arrived|The steel for the hull and decks of my eighteen footer arrived today. I've been chasing it for some time now but at last enough customers wanted some 2m wide for John Tainton to unroll and flatten a coil. Getting it off the lorry was, um, er, a challenge. It came on a 45 foot trailer. That is longer than my yard is deep. The road outside my workshop is very narrow. 3mm steel is very bendy. I borrowed an all terrain high lift loader/forklift from a farming friend, backed it into the yard then measured it. From where the 2meter wide steel would finish to the back of the machine was the same as the width of my yard with about 18" to spare. Then I remembered the roof overhang. Nothing to spare. Then it occurred to me that once the steel was on the ground I couldn't back the forklift to get the tines out from under. What did I do? I placed the tines on top of the steel, put some two by fours over the tines and the full length of the plates, cramped them together with g cramps. Thought about it. Coped with a lorry driver who wanted to be away to his next job. Put a couple of load straps around the two by fours and steel, put another couple to hold the load on to the tines, had a little prayer and lifted the plate up to clear the forge building roof (with the overhang), reversed, then full lock to place the steel down the length of the yard. The forge has a chimney. There is a pole with a telephone wire. A lot of backwards and forwards later, time to lower. We are too long! Tilting the forks down got me six inches, we have a successful landing. A drink for the driver and a tidy up. The most worrying stage (until the launch) over. Now I am itching to unroll those paper templates I pricked off my lofting, mark up and get cutting! Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14059|14006|2007-08-12 14:55:14|Aaron Williams|Re: Cockpit instalation|Thanks Brent The cockpit looks much better now. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: I usually let the deck drop to make the bulwarks higher at the stern, for better drainage aft. The inside edges where they join the cockpit seats ,I prefer to put slightly lower than the ouside edges so water will drain towards the centreline, and into the cockpit well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent or ? > > When installing the cockpit does the aft end hold the same 2" slope on > the side decks or should they end up flat? > I have the extra drop for and aft and I set the slope for 2" it just > looked odd. > Aaron > --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14060|14060|2007-08-12 14:55:33|kingsknight4life|Question for Greg Elliot|Hi Greg What do I have to do to get your article from your website, the one referred to below? "If you would be interested in hearing this story - to learn how we were able to go cruising and the adventures we had along the way - please fill out the form below. There is no obligation." I've tried to contact you but had met with no success, both on here and from the link on your site. Sincerely Rowland| 14061|13880|2007-08-12 14:55:44|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|Depending on where you are, there are quite a few "Brent" boats out there :) and its REALLY worth scoping a few out with your own eyes. Greg in the group built some very nifty 50's in alloy which appear on his site and can probably tell you where they are located. The designs are quite different as you might infer from his postings in the group. My recommendation would be to try to crew on as many boats as you can for as long as you can to get a feel for 1. what you can handle, and 2. what kindof room you think you need. Alex can tell you about his surprise at the sheer size of the Swain 40, compared to the 36. Four feet doesn't sound like much, but the 40 is a whole new game, not just to sail, but to build and equip. Alex went for a 36. :) I sympathize with the 6'4, I'm just under that and about 235 at the moment, and even figuring the height of the head, the knee room needed to open and close the door etc.:) -all that stuff becomes important in figuring what you "need". Now I put that word "need" in quotes cause I can pretty much guarantee you that you don't actually *need* as much room or stuff as you think you do, to go have a helluva lotta fun on the ocean, or the Great Lakes for that matter. :) On the other hand, imho, not everyone can live the truly spartan existence that overly limited accomodations dictate..especially if there's a woman involved. sooo... best advice I can give is go get on as many boats in as many sizes as you can to get a feel for what you want, then downsize a bit from there so you can afford the time and money to build it :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > As someone that doesn't currently own a boat of any sort I find this > size discussion intriguing. It is a discussion I've had with some > of the boaters at work, at least in our economic group the answers have > more to do with economics than anything. Of course none of these > people are do it your selfers with respect to boat build or overhaul. > > Being a bit on the large size one of my concerns is head room. That is > at what length does it become easy to provide for a good 6 feet 4 inches > of head clearance in the main salon? I realize that other parts of > the boat would suffer head room wise but having a cockpit and at least > one living area with that much clearance would seem to make for a much > more livable boat. Of course the cockpit may very well have no > roof or a soft one which eliminates that issue. > > Since I'm in the great lakes area the idea of shallow draft is important > also. > > Dave > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > As someone coming "down" in size from 54 to about 43, I agree for the > > most part with Brent. I'm losing ten feet or so, but that's also a > > little over 25k displacement which means just less than half the > > boat!!! There will always be a debate on how big is big enough, and > > there is some relative scale here. Everyone has their own needs, and > > imho there is no 'one size fits all'. > > > > First, its a matter of are you going to make this boat your home, or > > just take some trips. and how many on the boat...second, simplicity of > > rig or not, third ability of sailor and/or crew, fourth where r u > > going and what kind of conditions are you comfortable sailing in. > > Straight out, I'll tell you that sailing a 45 is a piece of cake once > > you've solo'd a 55ish. I'm sure people coming down from 45's to 36's > > would echo the same sentiment. However, I've met a lot of people in > > 30'ish boats that can't wait to get into the 40's. Experienced sailors > > also get caught up in the creeping 'just one more foot' "itis", > > especially the packrats. Not everyone is as spartan at sea as > > Brent.:) If you're the kind that likes to entertain, and take an > > extra couple along every now and then, then all bets are off, into the > > forties you go in a hurry, or they better be hellaciously 'close' > > friends..... > > > > Brent is absolutely right about draft tho...it separates a huge part > > of the pack. There's an amazing amount of really intriguing water > > that you are just not going into outside the dinghy if you're six feet > > deep or over..The twin keel ability to take the ground is serious > > icing on the shallow draft cake. The open sea is a wonderful place, > > for awhile, :) but its near land where the fun stuff is :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , "brentswain38" > ...> > > wrote: > > > > > > I met a lot of cruisers out in 52 footers who were hoping to get home > > > and downsize to something more managable. That's one huge boat. > > > Building a 36 footers is not that much more work or money than a 31 > > > footer and 36 footers sell for more than 3 time the price of a 31. > > > When you jump to a 40 footer it become a huge boat and costs go up > > > exponentially. > > > > ll versus 26 foot hull is about 52/26 = 2 times. The time to > > > > > | 14062|13933|2007-08-12 14:56:01|Carl Anderson|Re: IT FLOATS!|Moonflower of Moab is now on the hard on Lopez Island looking at her great grand mom (Bluebird of Thorne) out at anchor. Next year we will be doing the mast & interior finishing. Probably will get to northern Strait of Georgia in late 2008 or 2009. I'll get some pictures on the website after I get back to Utah. Carl brentswain38 wrote: > > Congratulations. When will we see you in the northern Strait of Georgia? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Got Moonflower of Moab in the water today at 9 AM.. > > Did a little test run of the engine and everything is fine there. > > Might be pitched a little high as 1500 RPM got us 5.5 knots. > > > > Thanks to Evan & Tony for all the hard work. > > Thanks to Winston for a place to build the boat. > > Thanks to Brent for the design & other ideas. > > > > Carl & Kate > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14063|14035|2007-08-12 14:56:33|seeratlas|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|In some of the 'latest and greatest' i've seen a lot of spoon bottomed boats with twin aft rudders, some with matching tiny little twin screws just 'hanging out there' on unprotected skegs...Once you've had to spend BIG bucks to pull the boat to pull the shaft, then have that straightened and the prop and strut repaired, that design hold's remarkably little appeal.... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Would not twin screws imply twin engines? I realize that you would > have torque ot deal with but wouldn't one engine be better than none > operating. > > Dave > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > Even twin screws, bow-thrusters and stern-thrusters won't prevent an > > inexperienced skipper from "screwing" up coming into a slip! I always > > remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch > > could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace > > it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two > > counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among > > the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow > > thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! Hopefully I'll fare just as well > > next week when I pick up my single-screw Swain 36! It think it takes > > time, but one can learn to work a single screw boat quite well. > > Dependence on on twin screws will lead you into trouble if one of your > > engines packs it in! > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:12 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Bilge-Keel power question > > > > Thinking about a few things after watching two large boats, one a > > twin-engined power cruiser, the other a single engined sailboat, > > docking this past week. > > > > Both boats approached their slips @ the same time, under power, w/a > > mild breeze (about 5kts) blowing. The power cruiser, by bumping his > > drives into & out of gear, was able to quite easily and slowly > > maneuver his boat into position to back into his slip. > > > > The sailboat had a devil of a time of it - and after the 3rd > > attempt, was able to snag a piling w/a bowline, and then "walk" his > > boat in reverse to a point at which they were able to toss a > > sternline to someone on the dock, and then pull the boat by hand > > backwards into the slip. > > > > This got me to thinking about having a twin drive of sorts on a > > BS36. There are several power/transmission combinations that could > > provide this - but, my questions are: > > > > What would be the effect of installing the drives from the bilge > > keels, .vs. the "normal" location? > > > > Having never operated a vessel w/a bow thruster - which is "better" > > in a boat this size? > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: > > 08/08/2007 5:38 PM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14064|14064|2007-08-12 14:57:16|mllmag|Wanted BS26 for sale|Hello, I'm a lurker of the group for a while, bought Brent's book and BS26 plans, but I don't feel I have the stamina and expertise to build a BS 26 all by myself, with little or no help other than occasionally (has anybody build a BS26 like that?), although I have finally found a place it could supply me naval grade steel (compulsory here in europe) at 3mm widths (very difficult to find). So if anybody knows of a BS26 for sale with hull in good condition or not too expensive to repare, I'd appreciate if he/she would let me know. Maybe a BS31 too if she is really priced very economically. Interior, equipment is not important for me, but being well-built is, even if it needs some cosmetic work (easy to do for one person with no experience but willing to learn). Thanks a lot. Marti NB If it turns out that really there aren't many used BS26 available (I have never seen any used one announced for sale), I would be open to any similar design with ocean-going capability, and really economical and easy to maintain (as Brent's design and philosophy seem to be). I don't know if there is anybody willing to build the hull, keel, and ballast and I would finish the interior, rigging, painting, but even if there is, I fear the cost would be too high for me. My budget is really tight. So I guess that's not an option for me. Buying used might be the right one.| 14065|14065|2007-08-12 14:57:36|seeratlas|sailing|You can also check this site out. Free to watch the small screen, with free signup , they charge for full screen tho. not necessary :) http://www.t2p.tv/index.php seer| 14066|14066|2007-08-12 14:58:00|brentswain38|Books and postage|Postage rates for my books has increased lately. For overseas airmail , when ordering my book, please send $12 for postage, for the US enclose $7 and for Canada $5. Thanks Brent| 14067|14067|2007-08-12 14:58:28|seeratlas|A *NEEED for SPEEEED* :)|Dunno where this was taken, but must have been a helluva wind. Most of it completely irrelevant, but for one brief shining second you'll see a red double ruddered long thin spoon bottomed ocean boat running like the wind. It's fun,...but.... heheh seer http://michael.omnicypher.com/2006/12/great-sailing-video.html| 14068|14068|2007-08-12 14:59:29|seeratlas|solo round the world interview|on that same site is some footage from the round the world with Bruce Schwab on his Ocean Sixty..interesting to see the rig and hear bruce speak. good speed from the sixty. scroll down till you see Bruce Schwab. http://www.t2p.tv/index.php seer| 14069|14035|2007-08-12 14:59:42|seeratlas|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|Ben, Agree on the technique but will remind everyone that *most* modern harbors have enough crap down on the bottom to foul a round ball, much less a dragging danforth/plow/northhill etc. I got a bruce anchor so wound up on the bottom once I eventually had to dive down to free it. The junk down there was amazing; used cable, lost lengths of chain, and a chit load of old fishing net minus the floats. not to mention something that looked a lot like an old washing machine. I'll admit I've seen some pretty amazing manuevering using a man on the foredeck backing a jib etc...but solo, and with adverse wind or tide, it can all go wrong real fast. On the falcon, I had a remote on the wagner hydraulic steering that I could take forward and manuever from the bow, but there were quite a few times I just edged up close and either cowboy'd a bollard, or a dock hand :) hehehe and had em just pull me in. Discretion is so often the better part of valor when dealing with things nautical. As you say though, with enough practice, amazing feats of seamanship can be pulled off without an engine, but these days, with the modern marinas looking more like full parking lots, with the fuel docks etc. stuck somewhere necessitating half a dozen turns etc....things can get just too risky for this old pansy to try to bring it in solely on the wind:) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 06:14:43PM -0700, Alex Christie wrote: > > Even twin screws, bow-thrusters and stern-thrusters won't prevent an > > inexperienced skipper from "screwing" up coming into a slip! I always > > remember how the skipper of charter boat THANE, a wooden 'Spray' ketch > > could bring in his boat to the docks in Victoria, BC with such grace > > it was hard to believe. It has a long keel and single screw -- two > > counts against easy maneuvers, yet he could move that big boat among > > the tightly packed vessels at the government dock as if it had bow > > thrusters and twin screws. Go figger! Hopefully I'll fare just as > > well next week when I pick up my single-screw Swain 36! It think it > > takes time, but one can learn to work a single screw boat quite well. > > Dependence on on twin screws will lead you into trouble if one of your > > engines packs it in! > > Since we're talking about sailboats, dependence on engines will often do > you in - but since we have an alternate means of propulsion, we don't > need to depend on them. It does take a bit of practice, though. :) > > When I was sailing my 34' Aloa, "Recessional", down in the Caribbean, > the engine packed it in while I was in Puerto Rico. Since I was too > broke to buy a new injector pump (Universal wanted $2k for a new one - > they refused to sell me the 50 cents worth of springs necessary to > repair it), I just sailed everywhere for the next couple of years, > including up to docks, etc. It's not that hard once you put your mind to > it - and sailing backwards by backwinding the main makes people's eyes > pop out of their heads. :) > > Also, learning to intentionally drag anchor ("droghing", as they used to > call it in the old days) is a very useful skill; it results from > gradually shortening the scope of an anchor until the boat starts to > move, then lengthening it to slow down as necessary. One time, I was > coming up to a fuel dock in about 30kt of wind (Luperon, DR); I sailed > to windward of it, dropped a light hook, and sloooowly dragged alongside > before tying up. The other two captains there, who had used their > engines to come up, had lost track of the fact that you can't power a > boat sideways, had chewed the living hell out of their topsides on that > dock... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > [Ur moderator Alex: Good point, Ben, what are those sails for anyhow??? hehehehe There is a couple on a BS36 on this coast who were in a similar fix with a busted engine -- they became quite accomplished sailors I think!] > | 14070|13880|2007-08-12 15:00:04|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > As you stretch a design, the surface area increases slower than the volume, > lightening the boat. At the same time, the scantlings increase, increasing > the weight. In steel, the required increase in scantlings may be less than > other materials, due to the corrosion allowance. > > The further you stretch the boat, the more likely these small changes will > add up, and the boat won't sit on her lines. An adjustment to the lines or > the ballast may be required. > > The greater the length to beam ratio, the easier it is for a displacement > hull to exceed hull speed without planing. Thus it becomes possible to > build fast cruising boats, without having to resort to exotic measures to > reduce weight. Thus the narrow beam penalty for racing - narrow beam allows > you to go faster without big $$. > > Besides being relatively immune to wave induced roll, as compared to beamy > boats, and thus more comfortable offshore, a narrow boat is much less likely > to remain inverted if capsized as compared to a beamy boat. This provides > as added level of safety for the offshore cruiser. > > All boats are a compromise. For inshore, a beamy boat with less ballast is > typically best. For offshore a narrow boat with lots of ballast is > typically best. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:27 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > > sight from a tube. > > Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for a POGO > I bought off of > George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are done. > > George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me comfortable. I'm > firmly in > Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal draft is > the way to go. > Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. > > Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable > practical max. > Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or freighter > with a U shaped > midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT underpowered > once > stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened > freighters etc take > longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but there's > sufficient power to > reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it works - > for freighters, > tankers etc. > > . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) > > Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, there are > a few people > I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to > spend another 4 > months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. > > PDW > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14071|14071|2007-08-12 16:56:12|tadrbrts|Introduction and History|Hello all, By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. All the best, Tad Tad Roberts Yacht Design [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14072|14072|2007-08-12 16:57:11|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen|Ran out of gas after cutting one bow and one sheer. Torch was playing up anyway so cut rest of today's efforts with angle grinder. I had used the mini grinder to mark out the hull sides from the template as my chalk which works well on slightly rusty steel just slid over the top; then I found a black felt tip did the job beautifully. Anyway, left the job with two tabs welded on to the bottom, offcuts from the stern. Looking forward to tomorrow's hobby time. Jonathan. PS is it only me, or are the digests not coming out to us poor sinners? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14073|14073|2007-08-12 16:57:35|seeratlas|electric drive update info|http://re-e-power.com/ http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm getting closer :) seer| 14074|14074|2007-08-12 16:58:10|seeratlas|OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a relatively small boat into the deep blue. He's right. Here's why.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the water. these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then build it STRONG :) I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now lol, but i'm not betting on it... seer| 14075|14064|2007-08-12 17:00:13|Eduardo Mendes Dias|Re: Wanted BS26 for sale|Hello Milmag, Where in europe do you are? ----- Original Message ----- From: mllmag To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Wanted BS26 for sale Hello, I'm a lurker of the group for a while, bought Brent's book and BS26 plans, but I don't feel I have the stamina and expertise to build a BS 26 all by myself, with little or no help other than occasionally (has anybody build a BS26 like that?), although I have finally found a place it could supply me naval grade steel (compulsory here in europe) at 3mm widths (very difficult to find). So if anybody knows of a BS26 for sale with hull in good condition or not too expensive to repare, I'd appreciate if he/she would let me know. Maybe a BS31 too if she is really priced very economically. Interior, equipment is not important for me, but being well-built is, even if it needs some cosmetic work (easy to do for one person with no experience but willing to learn). Thanks a lot. Marti NB If it turns out that really there aren't many used BS26 available (I have never seen any used one announced for sale), I would be open to any similar design with ocean-going capability, and really economical and easy to maintain (as Brent's design and philosophy seem to be). I don't know if there is anybody willing to build the hull, keel, and ballast and I would finish the interior, rigging, painting, but even if there is, I fear the cost would be too high for me. My budget is really tight. So I guess that's not an option for me. Buying used might be the right one. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14076|14060|2007-08-12 20:11:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Question for Greg Elliot|Review my past origamiboats postings. Much of the info is there. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 5:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Question for Greg Elliot Hi Greg What do I have to do to get your article from your website, the one referred to below? "If you would be interested in hearing this story - to learn how we were able to go cruising and the adventures we had along the way - please fill out the form below. There is no obligation." I've tried to contact you but had met with no success, both on here and from the link on your site. Sincerely Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14077|13880|2007-08-12 20:13:09|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull shape|There is a lot more to the motion of a boat than the beam. I've seen beamy and narrow boats roll their guts out sitting at anchor. Could be the displacement was different, the hull sections were different, the ballast ratios were different, the mast heights were different, the boat lengths were different. Unless the boats were identical in all other respects, any assumption about beam being the most important factor determining roll comfort, based on a single example, is at best misleading. For example, reducing the ballast so that the CB and CG are aligned vertically will tend to make a boat more comfortable when rolling. This is done routinely in power boats. In sails boats you must then make the boat beamier to carry the sails. However, in aligning the CG and CB, the angle of vanishing stability is reduced, making capsize more likely. At the same time, the increased beam makes the boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize and the increased beam makes the boat less likely to right itself once capsize. So, yes you can make a boat more comfortable by increasing the beam (to allow for reduced ballast), but it is not a good idea for offshore. It is a good idea for onshore, where capsize risk is much less. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:51 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > As you stretch a design, the surface area increases slower than the volume, > lightening the boat. At the same time, the scantlings increase, increasing > the weight. In steel, the required increase in scantlings may be less than > other materials, due to the corrosion allowance. > > The further you stretch the boat, the more likely these small changes will > add up, and the boat won't sit on her lines. An adjustment to the lines or > the ballast may be required. > > The greater the length to beam ratio, the easier it is for a displacement > hull to exceed hull speed without planing. Thus it becomes possible to > build fast cruising boats, without having to resort to exotic measures to > reduce weight. Thus the narrow beam penalty for racing - narrow beam allows > you to go faster without big $$. > > Besides being relatively immune to wave induced roll, as compared to beamy > boats, and thus more comfortable offshore, a narrow boat is much less likely > to remain inverted if capsized as compared to a beamy boat. This provides > as added level of safety for the offshore cruiser. > > All boats are a compromise. For inshore, a beamy boat with less ballast is > typically best. For offshore a narrow boat with lots of ballast is > typically best. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:27 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > > sight from a tube. > > Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for a POGO > I bought off of > George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are done. > > George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me comfortable. I'm > firmly in > Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal draft is > the way to go. > Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. > > Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable > practical max. > Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or freighter > with a U shaped > midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT underpowered > once > stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened > freighters etc take > longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but there's > sufficient power to > reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it works - > for freighters, > tankers etc. > > . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) > > Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, there are > a few people > I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to > spend another 4 > months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. > > PDW > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14078|14071|2007-08-13 23:25:51|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Introduction and History|Tad, I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. I made a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on that his hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I always got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine starts. A paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel is much stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls together. The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow actually takes on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your boat is entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the compound curvature and flatten it accurately. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tadrbrts" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > Hello all, > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > All the best, Tad > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14079|14074|2007-08-13 23:26:44|mkriley48|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any boat can break. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > He's right. > Here's why.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 > > After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, > sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel > doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, > and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the > water. > > these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they > get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US > coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in > at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing > boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in > total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about > longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u > don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then > build it STRONG :) > > I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water > sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their > careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now > lol, but i'm not betting on it... > > seer > | 14080|13880|2007-08-13 23:27:04|brentswain38|Re: hull shape|Excessive beam definitly does make the boat less likely to right. However its a long way from my designs to excessive beam. If your boat is slightly on the narrow side of average , you have little to worry about with ultimate stability, especially if you have a trunk cabin instead of flush deck,and especially if you have a metal wheelhouse and all the buoyancy that contains. Adding a wheelhouse can be the equivalent to adding thousands of pounds of extra ballast when it comes to ultimate stability. If it's on the wide side of average , then you may well have something to worry about. British designer Angus Primrose , after capsizing in one of his designs did some calculations and found that a slight decrease in beam resulted in a huge increase in ultimate stability.It didn't take extreme reductions in beam. Keels tend to be the pivot point around which a boat rolls. Twin keels give a boat two pivot points ,which counter each other when the boat tries to roll, resulting in far less rolling than a single keel boat in the same conditions. Deep draft is great for offshore ; as long as you stay offshore and never try cruise near shore in less that super deep areas. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > There is a lot more to the motion of a boat than the beam. I've seen beamy > and narrow boats roll their guts out sitting at anchor. > > Could be the displacement was different, the hull sections were different, > the ballast ratios were different, the mast heights were different, the boat > lengths were different. > > Unless the boats were identical in all other respects, any assumption about > beam being the most important factor determining roll comfort, based on a > single example, is at best misleading. > > For example, reducing the ballast so that the CB and CG are aligned > vertically will tend to make a boat more comfortable when rolling. This is > done routinely in power boats. In sails boats you must then make the boat > beamier to carry the sails. > > However, in aligning the CG and CB, the angle of vanishing stability is > reduced, making capsize more likely. At the same time, the increased beam > makes the boat more susceptible to wave induced capsize and the increased > beam makes the boat less likely to right itself once capsize. > > So, yes you can make a boat more comfortable by increasing the beam (to > allow for reduced ballast), but it is not a good idea for offshore. It is a > good idea for onshore, where capsize risk is much less. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:51 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several > times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for > beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > As you stretch a design, the surface area increases slower than the > volume, > > lightening the boat. At the same time, the scantlings increase, > increasing > > the weight. In steel, the required increase in scantlings may be > less than > > other materials, due to the corrosion allowance. > > > > The further you stretch the boat, the more likely these small > changes will > > add up, and the boat won't sit on her lines. An adjustment to the > lines or > > the ballast may be required. > > > > The greater the length to beam ratio, the easier it is for a > displacement > > hull to exceed hull speed without planing. Thus it becomes possible to > > build fast cruising boats, without having to resort to exotic > measures to > > reduce weight. Thus the narrow beam penalty for racing - narrow > beam allows > > you to go faster without big $$. > > > > Besides being relatively immune to wave induced roll, as compared to > beamy > > boats, and thus more comfortable offshore, a narrow boat is much > less likely > > to remain inverted if capsized as compared to a beamy boat. This > provides > > as added level of safety for the offshore cruiser. > > > > All boats are a compromise. For inshore, a beamy boat with less > ballast is > > typically best. For offshore a narrow boat with lots of ballast is > > typically best. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:27 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > > > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > > > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > > > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > > > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > > > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > > > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > > > sight from a tube. > > > > Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for > a POGO > > I bought off of > > George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are > done. > > > > George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me > comfortable. I'm > > firmly in > > Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal > draft is > > the way to go. > > Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. > > > > Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable > > practical max. > > Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or > freighter > > with a U shaped > > midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT > underpowered > > once > > stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened > > freighters etc take > > longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but > there's > > sufficient power to > > reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it > works - > > for freighters, > > tankers etc. > > > > . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > > > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > > > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > > > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > > > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) > > > > Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, > there are > > a few people > > I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to > > spend another 4 > > months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14081|14064|2007-08-13 23:27:33|mllmag|Re: Wanted BS26 for sale|Hello Eduardo and everybody in the group, Currently I am near Tarragona, in Catalonia, on the Northeast coast of Spain. Why? Are you nearby?. Although I am very far away from the west coast, maybe there is a BS26 nearby, or somebody who has built one and is ready for a bigger boat. Or even I could consider go to Canada or USA to pick up the boat, if the price is right. Marti --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eduardo Mendes Dias" wrote: > > Hello Milmag, > Where in europe do you are? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mllmag > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 9:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Wanted BS26 for sale > > > Hello, I'm a lurker of the group for a while, bought Brent's book and > BS26 plans, but I don't feel I have the stamina and expertise to build > a BS 26 all by myself, with little or no help other than occasionally > (has anybody build a BS26 like that?), although I have finally found > a place it could supply me naval grade steel (compulsory here in > europe) at 3mm widths (very difficult to find). So if anybody knows of > a BS26 for sale with hull in good condition or not too expensive to > repare, I'd appreciate if he/she would let me know. Maybe a BS31 too > if she is really priced very economically. Interior, equipment is not > important for me, but being well-built is, even if it needs some > cosmetic work (easy to do for one person with no experience but > willing to learn). Thanks a lot. > Marti > NB If it turns out that really there aren't many used BS26 available > (I have never seen any used one announced for sale), I would be open > to any similar design with ocean-going capability, and really > economical and easy to maintain (as Brent's design and philosophy seem > to be). I don't know if there is anybody willing to build the hull, > keel, and ballast and I would finish the interior, rigging, painting, > but even if there is, I fear the cost would be too high for me. My > budget is really tight. So I guess that's not an option for me. Buying > used might be the right one. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14082|14035|2007-08-13 23:31:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bilge-Keel power question|On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 01:58:54AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben, > Agree on the technique but will remind everyone that *most* modern > harbors have enough crap down on the bottom to foul a round ball, much > less a dragging danforth/plow/northhill etc. I got a bruce anchor so > wound up on the bottom once I eventually had to dive down to free it. > The junk down there was amazing; used cable, lost lengths of chain, > and a chit load of old fishing net minus the floats. not to mention > something that looked a lot like an old washing machine. Agreed, and I'd never try dragging a hook in a modern, busy harbor (Luperon fit neither description.) I did, however, regularly sail up to docks pretty much all over the Caribbean; backwinding the main, either to "walk" her back or to bring her to a sharp stop got to be pretty much second nature with me. A friend of mine came to see me while I was anchored in Long Bay (St. Thomas) and anchored the boat that he was skippering - about a 60' "floating hotel" of a power boat - near me. I fixed his computer, and after we had lunch, he tried to up anchor - no go. He fiddled with the windlass for a while, then asked me to stand by on the foredeck while he went up to the steering station; then, he fired up those big engines, put her in reverse... and brought a *sailboat* to the surface, with his anchor caught in the rigging. See, Hurricane Marilyn had passed through St. T just a year before that... didn't leave a whole lot of boats floating in that harbor. That's where Humphrey Bogart's old sailboat went down (people kept diving up good brass and mahogany from that wreck for the next couple of years.) I also ended up diving an anchor of mine when it got hung up in the rigging of yet another sunken boat. > I'll admit > I've seen some pretty amazing manuevering using a man on the foredeck > backing a jib etc...but solo, and with adverse wind or tide, it can > all go wrong real fast. No doubt. That's why - just as I do while riding my motorcycle - I've _always_ got my escape route figured before I ever try it... or I won't try it, barring an emergency. We all do foolhardy things once in a while, though. :) Once, when I beating past Culebra (Puerto Rico), the wind started to kick up pretty seriously - ~35 kt. - I decided that I didn't feel like getting pounded to death in that bloody passage (only 20 miles, but one of the toughest bits of humping in the Caribbean even in calm weather), and would anchor inside. The town of Dewey and its anchorage were still a few miles up the channel, and the wind kept rising - 40-45 by the time I worked into the bay - so I figured I'd slide into the narrow anchorage immediately behind the entrance reef. I knew that there would be hell to pay if I had to beat out of there - the entrance was almost dead downwind - but I felt pretty confident, so I aimed "Ulysses" thataway. Literally 10 seconds after I passed the entrance, I saw that there were eight other boats in there, with *maybe* room for just one more... As I beam-reached down behind the line of boats - going maybe 10kt. under a double-reefed main - I figured out where I needed to spot the anchor, sailed just past it, flipped "Ulysses" around in a sharp turn into the eye of the wind (that boat could sail on a dime and give you nine cents change and a hearty slap on the back, too :), and dropped the main as she lost way. Then, just as she was about to fall back, I fed out the anchor chain and the bit of nylon, and let her snub it up solid. When I looked up, the couple on the Swiss boat, next to me, were applauding. :) We got to be pretty good friends over the next few days, as the storm blew itself out. > On the falcon, I had a remote on the wagner > hydraulic steering that I could take forward and manuever from the > bow, but there were quite a few times I just edged up close and either > cowboy'd a bollard, or a dock hand :) hehehe and had em just pull me > in. Discretion is so often the better part of valor when dealing with > things nautical. Heh. Yeah, pretty much what I'm saying above. I had an Autohelm remote that I used the same way for quite a while - that was before I'd made a whole pile of money repairing failed Autohelms for my fellow sailors. The only failure I ever saw on a Wagner, incidentally, was some minor stuff in the sending unit (compass); I don't remember what it was, exactly (either a bad reed switch or some oxidation) but as I recall, I was able to take care of it right there on the spot. I was quite impressed with the quality. > As you say though, with enough practice, amazing > feats of seamanship can be pulled off without an engine, but these > days, with the modern marinas looking more like full parking lots, > with the fuel docks etc. stuck somewhere necessitating half a dozen > turns etc....things can get just too risky for this old pansy to try > to bring it in solely on the wind:) [laugh] I once skippered a boat for an old fellow who had a *very* long pocket and was very short on experience - took him down to Key Biscayne. Great old guy, lots of interesting experiences in his life (D-Day in WWII, multimillionaire who had built his fortune from scratch _twice,_ etc.) When we got there, I got the boat into a slip for him; a bit tricky, since we had a pretty good crosswind. *Then*, the marina manager told him "you need to go to another slip - the dock hands sent you to the wrong one!" Mace decided - against my advice - to try shifting the boat himself, and - of course - crunched it against a big powerboat in the next slip. Right after the crunchy-grindy sound, some woman ran out on deck and just started screaming at the top of her voice - which he completely ignored; as soon as the captain came out, he said, very calmly (still ignoring the screaming): "My name is Mace -----; I'm independently wealthy, and I will pay for any damages or repairs. Here's my card." The guy, who was obviously getting pretty wound up, immediately calmed down, and all worked out well from that point on. Especially since he called me back and asked me to shift the boat for him. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14083|13880|2007-08-14 01:53:44|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|Brent, if i remember right, didn't he change boats after impersonating a javelin off a wave and pitchpoling the narrow Wanderer? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several > times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for > beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > As you stretch a design, the surface area increases slower than the > volume, > > lightening the boat. At the same time, the scantlings increase, > increasing > > the weight. In steel, the required increase in scantlings may be > less than > > other materials, due to the corrosion allowance. > > > > The further you stretch the boat, the more likely these small > changes will > > add up, and the boat won't sit on her lines. An adjustment to the > lines or > > the ballast may be required. > > > > The greater the length to beam ratio, the easier it is for a > displacement > > hull to exceed hull speed without planing. Thus it becomes possible to > > build fast cruising boats, without having to resort to exotic > measures to > > reduce weight. Thus the narrow beam penalty for racing - narrow > beam allows > > you to go faster without big $$. > > > > Besides being relatively immune to wave induced roll, as compared to > beamy > > boats, and thus more comfortable offshore, a narrow boat is much > less likely > > to remain inverted if capsized as compared to a beamy boat. This > provides > > as added level of safety for the offshore cruiser. > > > > All boats are a compromise. For inshore, a beamy boat with less > ballast is > > typically best. For offshore a narrow boat with lots of ballast is > > typically best. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:27 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > No offense, but seems to me we're getting pretty simplistic here. Now > > > I've had a drink, or two, or was it more.. :) with Mr. Buehler (he > > > hates it when you call him that btw), and once you get past the smoke > > > (literally, he had a helluva pipe with him that night), there's very > > > little bs to george. He has his ideas, but he also likes a buck here > > > and there ergo the ducks. Most of his favorite sailing designs tend > > > towards the classical long and moderately narrow BUT, they're a far > > > sight from a tube. > > > > Yeah, wasn't implying differently. In fact I have a set of plans for > a POGO > > I bought off of > > George some years ago. Might be built soon now the house & shed are > done. > > > > George's bigger boats draw a bit more water than makes me > comfortable. I'm > > firmly in > > Brent's (and Tom Colvin's) camp here - for a cruising boat, shoal > draft is > > the way to go. > > Drying out is a major plus for maintenance if nothing else. > > > > Anyway, 20% stretch of a hull without major dramas seems the reasonable > > practical max. > > Talk of 100% stretch might work (does, in fact) for a tanker or > freighter > > with a U shaped > > midsection and no keel, but not a sailboat. Ben(?) comment WRT > underpowered > > once > > stretched isn't really apposite, depending on your defn. The lengthened > > freighters etc take > > longer to reach cruising speed and they sure can't stop fast, but > there's > > sufficient power to > > reach hull speed, which increases with the stretch, so all in all it > works - > > for freighters, > > tankers etc. > > > > . On the other hand, from all accounts, his sailing ships, tho > > > often spartan, are fine transports cross the open oceans. > > > If you ever get a chance to meet George, do it. He knows more than a > > > fair bit about the big blue and what you need if you're headed out > > > there. (oh, and he likes scotch:) > > > > Might be coming over the West coast in the next few months. If so, > there are > > a few people > > I want to look up. George would be one of them. First I probably have to > > spend another 4 > > months at sea for work, tho. Retirement from this caper looms. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14084|14071|2007-08-14 01:55:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Introduction and History|Interesting that Lundstrom held the patent. If 1981 is the date of the patent, it would appear to pre-date origami on the west coast. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tadrbrts Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History Hello all, By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. All the best, Tad Tad Roberts Yacht Design ts.ca> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14085|14071|2007-08-16 14:05:19|tadrbrts|Re: Introduction and History|Greg, Lundstrom filed for the US patent (#4,282,617) in June 1978, it was granted in August of 1981. I have an idea that it was about the early 80's that the first Swain hulls I saw (on Quadra Island) appeared. I don't know but I'd guess its "great minds think alike" or "an idea whose time has come". By the way the patent covers about 8 different combinations of slots and butts. Tad --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Interesting that Lundstrom held the patent. If 1981 is the date of the > patent, it would appear to pre-date origami on the west coast. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of tadrbrts > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:43 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > Hello all, > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > All the best, Tad > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > ts.ca> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14086|14086|2007-08-16 14:05:33|brentswain38|BC plywood|All plywood manufactured in British Columbia has the same glueing standards as marine grade plywood. The US plywood industry wanted us to drastically lower our standards to theirs ( a race to the bottom), as they complained our higher standards were an unfair trade advantage. We refused. BC plywood that I scounged off the beach for my interior is still as good as the day I put it in. This is not the case with imported plywood that I used.It is now starting to delaminate, and I'll have to start replacing it with BC plywood ,preferably that which has been tested by having been out in the weather for a while. If you are building an interior in BC , avoid imported plywoood . Brent| 14087|14074|2007-08-16 14:05:56|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Mike, I think that you need to re-evaluate your term of Bad Seamanship and have a look at type of boat and circumstances. 1. If you have ever been in a large power boat in heavy weather, more times than not you will find that there are 1 to 1.5 waves per length of the boat. Hence, as showed in this Vid the flare of the bow getting slammed by the wave. Reason for this is because the previous wave is still lifting the stern into the air!!!! 2. This Vid represents a Power boat, not a sail boat. Go back and study Stability Curves!!!! If you were to try and run with it, in that situation, there would be no way you could get enough speed for steerage. What would most likely happen is that the following sea would lift the stern, the natural shape of the hull coupled with the force of the sea would cause the vessel to broach, and given that it is a power boat its point of no return would be 85 degrees at BEST!!! Keep in mind what your percentages would be of a roll over for not going straight into it, vrs. the boat breaking in half by going straight into it!!!! 3. One maneuver that is stated in heavy weather for both power or sail is to put a Sea Anchor off the Bow. Putting the vessel head on to the Seas, thus reducing the chance of a roll over!!! Is this bad Seamanship??? Unless you are there and know the complete situation its hard to say. Have you ever wondered why of all the video's/ pictures you have seen of large power boats in heavy weather, they are always going straight into it. Usually just fast enough to maintain steerage. By your statements every Captain of a large vessel must have BAD Seamanship!!!!!! Now if this were a Vid of a sail boat 1. Unless the sail boat was of similar size, they mostlikely would not have enough horsepower to motor straight into it. And there are several ways of dealing with bad weather. You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run with it, etc. 2. The characteristics of Sail and Power are very different and choices of Seaman Ship should be made accordingly. 3. Just because you would do one thing in a 26 - 50' sail boat doesn't mean you would do the same in a 120'+ motor boat. A good Captain and GOOD Seamanship is being able to evaluate the circumstances of everything involved, including Type and Size of Vessel, Sea State, Ability of Crew, Current and Forecasted Weather Conditions, always have a plan B incase plan A is not working out. Cameron --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com "mkriley48" wrote: what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any boat can break. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > He's right. > Here's why.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14088|14071|2007-08-16 14:06:09|tadrbrts|Re: Introduction and History|Hi Gary, Developing the Ragsdale Schooner hull was a fairly painful process. It did work as a one time project but if I do it again I'll buy TouchCad which is intended for the job of unwrapping complex surfaces. Rhino is not intended for this and will not unroll any surface curved in two directions. Of course an origami hull is "tortured" into a non-developable surface. What I did in Rhino was model the hull as two partially developable surfaces, with tangent edges forward and aft, then chopped those into smaller area which would unroll. Then joined them back together after unrolling, then adjusted to get joints and slots the way I wanted them. Then repeat this six times until you get both the hull form you want and the plate pattern you want. I have great respect for the unrolled Rhino surfaces and re-joined I found them totally accurate. As with any origami hull I cannot perfectly predict the final shape of the compound curved areas, which is dependent on the welding/bending process and the plate stiffness. But it's certainly close enough for boat work. Tad --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Tad, > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. I made > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on that his > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I always > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine starts. A > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel is much > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls together. > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow actually takes > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your boat is > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tadrbrts" tadrbrts@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14089|14089|2007-08-16 14:06:10|mickeyolaf|Metal Corrosion|For those interested there is an excellent book by Nigel Warren, titled "Metal Corrosion in Boats". A really good read for a metal boat owner or builder. Cathodic protection, wastage, corrosion, mixing metals etc. Some great simple ideas to prevent problems with metal boats.| 14090|14071|2007-08-16 14:06:10|brentswain38|Re: Introduction and History|High line aluminium did hundreds of origami aluminium boats in Richmond BC in the 60's . The mirror class dinghy was designed for origami in 1960. I built my first origami 26 footer in jan 1980.Roy Chambers started using origami boatbuilding in Maple Bay BC in 1977. Lundstrom's patent was always totally invalid , like a patent on the wheel. Gary Curtis told him that. Origami methods have been standard practise in sheet metal working since the ancient Egyptians , about 5,000 years ago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Interesting that Lundstrom held the patent. If 1981 is the date of the > patent, it would appear to pre-date origami on the west coast. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of tadrbrts > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:43 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > Hello all, > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > All the best, Tad > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > ts.ca> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14091|14074|2007-08-16 14:06:27|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Mike, I think that you need to re-evaluate your term of Bad Seamanship and have a look at type of boat and circumstances. 1. If you have ever been in a large power boat in heavy weather, more times than not you will find that there are 1 to 1.5 waves per length of the boat. Hence, as showed in this Vid the flare of the bow getting slammed by the wave. Reason for this is because the previous wave is still lifting the stern into the air!!!! 2. This Vid represents a Power boat, not a sail boat. Go back and study Stability Curves!!!! If you were to try and run with it, in that situation, there would be no way you could get enough speed for steerage. What would most likely happen is that the following sea would lift the stern, the natural shape of the hull coupled with the force of the sea would cause the vessel to broach, and given that it is a power boat its point of no return would be 85 degrees at BEST!!! Keep in mind what your percentages would be of a roll over for not going straight into it, vrs. the boat breaking in half by going straight into it!!!! 3. One maneuver that is stated in heavy weather for both power or sail is to put a Sea Anchor off the Bow. Putting the vessel head on to the Seas, thus reducing the chance of a roll over!!! Is this bad Seamanship??? Unless you are there and know the complete situation its hard to say. Have you ever wondered why of all the video's/ pictures you have seen of large power boats in heavy weather, they are always going straight into it. Usually just fast enough to maintain steerage. By your statements every Captain of a large vessel must have BAD Seamanship!!!!!! Now if this were a Vid of a sail boat 1. Unless the sail boat was of similar size, they mostlikely would not have enough horsepower to motor straight into it. And there are several ways of dealing with bad weather. You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run with it, etc. 2. The characteristics of Sail and Power are very different and choices of Seaman Ship should be made accordingly. 3. Just because you would do one thing in a 26 - 50' sail boat doesn't mean you would do the same in a 120'+ motor boat. A good Captain and GOOD Seamanship is being able to evaluate the circumstances of everything involved, including Type and Size of Vessel, Sea State, Ability of Crew, Current and Forecasted Weather Conditions, always have a plan B incase plan A is not working out. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any boat can break. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > He's right. > Here's why.... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 > > After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, > sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel > doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, > and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the > water. > > these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they > get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US > coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in > at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing > boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in > total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about > longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u > don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then > build it STRONG :) > > I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water > sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their > careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now > lol, but i'm not betting on it... > > seer > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14092|13880|2007-08-16 14:06:37|Paul J. Thompson|Re: hull shape|-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:41:20 +1200 From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com References: No Seer, you are thinking of the Smeetons, Re Once is Enough. Eric Hiscock would never do such unseemly things. seeratlas wrote: > Brent, if i remember right, didn't he change boats after impersonating > a javelin off a wave and pitchpoling the narrow Wanderer? > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several >> times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for >> beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. >> Brent >> -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 14093|14074|2007-08-17 01:39:59|Knut F Garshol|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Hi Cameron, that supply ship for the oil operations in the North Sea comes from the Bergen area on the W coast of Norway (like myself). I was also very tempted to comment along the lines you already did, but since they were fellow Norwegians I thought it would just sound like prestige reaction on my part. I agree with your evaluations. I may also add that these guys are on stand-by around the platforms for long periods of time. With the frequent and violent storms during winter in the North Sea, this kind of situation is pretty close to a routine part of the job. I don't think you get the impression of high stress or excitement among the crew by listening to the weak audio on the video clip. Most likely the ship on the video was on stand-by and NOT powering into the sea with more than steering speed. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit Mike, I think that you need to re-evaluate your term of Bad Seamanship and have a look at type of boat and circumstances. 1. If you have ever been in a large power boat in heavy weather, more times than not you will find that there are 1 to 1.5 waves per length of the boat. Hence, as showed in this Vid the flare of the bow getting slammed by the wave. Reason for this is because the previous wave is still lifting the stern into the air!!!! 2. This Vid represents a Power boat, not a sail boat. Go back and study Stability Curves!!!! If you were to try and run with it, in that situation, there would be no way you could get enough speed for steerage. What would most likely happen is that the following sea would lift the stern, the natural shape of the hull coupled with the force of the sea would cause the vessel to broach, and given that it is a power boat its point of no return would be 85 degrees at BEST!!! Keep in mind what your percentages would be of a roll over for not going straight into it, vrs. the boat breaking in half by going straight into it!!!! 3. One maneuver that is stated in heavy weather for both power or sail is to put a Sea Anchor off the Bow. Putting the vessel head on to the Seas, thus reducing the chance of a roll over!!! Is this bad Seamanship??? Unless you are there and know the complete situation its hard to say. Have you ever wondered why of all the video's/ pictures you have seen of large power boats in heavy weather, they are always going straight into it. Usually just fast enough to maintain steerage. By your statements every Captain of a large vessel must have BAD Seamanship!!!!!! Now if this were a Vid of a sail boat 1. Unless the sail boat was of similar size, they mostlikely would not have enough horsepower to motor straight into it. And there are several ways of dealing with bad weather. You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run with it, etc. 2. The characteristics of Sail and Power are very different and choices of Seaman Ship should be made accordingly. 3. Just because you would do one thing in a 26 - 50' sail boat doesn't mean you would do the same in a 120'+ motor boat. A good Captain and GOOD Seamanship is being able to evaluate the circumstances of everything involved, including Type and Size of Vessel, Sea State, Ability of Crew, Current and Forecasted Weather Conditions, always have a plan B incase plan A is not working out. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any boat can break. mike --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > He's right. > Here's why.... > > http://www.youtube com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 > > After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, > sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel > doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, > and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the > water. > > these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they > get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US > coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in > at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing > boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in > total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about > longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u > don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then > build it STRONG :) > > I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water > sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their > careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now > lol, but i'm not betting on it... > > seer > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14094|14086|2007-08-17 01:42:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: BC plywood|You will find that MDO plywood has more glue in it then Marine and is in the price range of ABX or less. One of the great things about the beach plywood is it has been soaked in sea water so is some what rot resistant. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > All plywood manufactured in British Columbia has the same glueing > standards as marine grade plywood. The US plywood industry wanted us > to drastically lower our standards to theirs ( a race to the bottom), > as they complained our higher standards were an unfair trade > advantage. We refused. BC plywood that I scounged off the beach for my > interior is still as good as the day I put it in. This is not the case > with imported plywood that I used.It is now starting to delaminate, > and I'll have to start replacing it with BC plywood ,preferably that > which has been tested by having been out in the weather for a while. > If you are building an interior in BC , avoid imported plywoood . > Brent > | 14095|14095|2007-08-21 14:43:31|thomas lee|Re: hull shape/ anchoring et al.|Amigos: Blue Water by B.G. -more than just a good read--- Ahem. Griffith would have loved Sir Eric , "and others". The Yank's got them all beat I'm afraid.--- Ahem. --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14096|14071|2007-08-21 14:43:36|sae140|Re: Introduction and History|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tadrbrts" wrote: > > Greg, > > Lundstrom filed for the US patent (#4,282,617) in June 1978, it was > granted in August of 1981. I have an idea that it was about the early > 80's that the first Swain hulls I saw (on Quadra Island) appeared. I > don't know but I'd guess its "great minds think alike" or "an idea whose > time has come". By the way the patent covers about 8 different > combinations of slots and butts. > > Although the Lundstrom patent shows cut-outs more recognisable to current building practice, there were several patents lodged way back in the 1940's which show evidence of the developing technique. The principles of Origami construction have been evolving for a considerable time. Colin| 14097|14074|2007-08-21 14:45:05|peter_d_wiley|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|I strongly disagree and I've been thru more severe gales than most people here. In the last 6 years alone I've spent more than 12 months at sea in the Southern Ocean on icebreakers. Our std practice is to steam to weather just fast enough to maintain steerage, with the waves just off the port bow. The motion is pretty bad, but every other method of dealing with severe weather is worse. A series of larger waves will virtually stop the vessel and lose steerage way, so the man on the wheel is juggling propellor pitch all the time. If you run for it, surfing a 6500 tonne vessel down a 20m wave is an interesting experience but needs a lot more finesse than steaming to weather. You also get a long way further from where you wanted to go, often enough. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. > powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any > boat can break. > mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > > He's right. > > Here's why.... > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 > > > > After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, > > sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel > > doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, > > and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the > > water. > > > > these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they > > get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US > > coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in > > at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing > > boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in > > total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about > > longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u > > don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then > > build it STRONG :) > > > > I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water > > sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their > > careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now > > lol, but i'm not betting on it... > > > > seer > > > | 14098|14074|2007-08-21 14:45:51|jim dorey|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction > it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run > with it, etc. any generic rules available, as a starting point? i figure it's dependent on wind, wave and current direction, wave size, as well as size and shape of the boat, maybe somebody can figure the best start points out for those of us not quite ready to dive in.| 14099|14074|2007-08-21 14:45:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|On Tue, Aug 14, 2007 at 12:17:48PM -0400, Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > Mike, > I think that you need to re-evaluate your term of Bad Seamanship and > have a look at type of boat and circumstances. I agree. If there's anything I learned about handling boats in bad weather, it's that every one of them is different - and, although you can tell *in general* how a ship will act when the excretory ejecta encounter the rotary oscillator [1], you'll only _really_ know what she'll do when you start taking those short breaking seas and a wind at an angle to that that's got some teeth in it. I will say that a big boat will often give you more time to make a decision, and there's a greater range of things you can do (assuming that you've got the crew to handle it) - but I'm talking about the difference between, say, 25 and 80 feet. Don't go building your boat three feet longer on that account alone. [1] "shit hits the fan", for the humor-impaired set. :) > Have you ever wondered why of all the video's/ pictures you have seen > of large power boats in heavy weather, they are always going straight > into it. Usually just fast enough to maintain steerage. By your > statements every Captain of a large vessel must have BAD > Seamanship!!!!!! Or, to be fair, taking the seas just off the bow rather than dead straight into it. It depends on the ship. I find that "Ulysses", for example, lies with literally complete comfort if I "let her have her head" - i.e., rig a slack line from the bow to the center bollard, then put a block on that line and stream a small sea anchor off that block. Her natural angle seems to be ~20 degrees off, and she did no rolling at all in the short, steep seas off Cape Fear in the ~20' seas (the Coasties' weather station said it was 18'-23' at the time) that I encountered. I had only a small trysail up at the time, and she was making about a knot and a half of leeway; that's as sweet of a behavior as you'll ever get out of a craft in a storm. (Yep, I'm boasting just a bit... I love this boat. :) > 1. Unless the sail boat was of similar size, they mostlikely would not > have enough horsepower to motor straight into it. [laugh] I've never found lack of power to be a problem in that kind of weather. Usually, it's all I can do to get *rid* of the excess power (by reducing my sail area, etc.) > A good Captain and GOOD Seamanship is being able to evaluate the > circumstances of everything involved, including Type and Size of > Vessel, Sea State, Ability of Crew, Current and Forecasted Weather > Conditions, always have a plan B incase plan A is not working out. That's about as wise of a statement as can be made about it, overall. Something I learned from flying, by the way, is to also have a plan C - just in case (more of a general direction to head for than a specific plan, but something worked out ahead of time anyway.) It's saved my bacon a couple of times. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14100|13880|2007-08-21 14:47:01|seeratlas|Re: hull shape|That's right :), I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out :) Seer :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: hull shape > Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:41:20 +1200 > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > References: > > No Seer, you are thinking of the Smeetons, Re Once is Enough. Eric > Hiscock would never do such unseemly things. > > seeratlas wrote: > > Brent, if i remember right, didn't he change boats after impersonating > > a javelin off a wave and pitchpoling the narrow Wanderer? > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> Ereic Hiscock sailed a narrow , deep boat around the world several > >> times ,complaining greatly about excessive rolling . When he went for > >> beamier boats he was much happier with the motion. > >> Brent > >> > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 14101|14064|2007-08-21 14:52:44|Eduardo Mendes Dias|Re: Wanted BS26 for sale|I think I have a boat that might interest you, it is in lisbon portugal. I think that this sort of mater should not be discuss in this blog. so, if you are interested, please contact me to my personal adress emd@..., for futher details. thank you eduardo ----- Original Message ----- From: mllmag To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wanted BS26 for sale Hello Eduardo and everybody in the group, Currently I am near Tarragona, in Catalonia, on the Northeast coast of Spain. Why? Are you nearby?. Although I am very far away from the west coast, maybe there is a BS26 nearby, or somebody who has built one and is ready for a bigger boat. Or even I could consider go to Canada or USA to pick up the boat, if the price is right. Marti --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eduardo Mendes Dias" wrote: > > Hello Milmag, > Where in europe do you are? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mllmag > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 9:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Wanted BS26 for sale > > > Hello, I'm a lurker of the group for a while, bought Brent's book and > BS26 plans, but I don't feel I have the stamina and expertise to build > a BS 26 all by myself, with little or no help other than occasionally > (has anybody build a BS26 like that?), although I have finally found > a place it could supply me naval grade steel (compulsory here in > europe) at 3mm widths (very difficult to find). So if anybody knows of > a BS26 for sale with hull in good condition or not too expensive to > repare, I'd appreciate if he/she would let me know. Maybe a BS31 too > if she is really priced very economically. Interior, equipment is not > important for me, but being well-built is, even if it needs some > cosmetic work (easy to do for one person with no experience but > willing to learn). Thanks a lot. > Marti > NB If it turns out that really there aren't many used BS26 available > (I have never seen any used one announced for sale), I would be open > to any similar design with ocean-going capability, and really > economical and easy to maintain (as Brent's design and philosophy seem > to be). I don't know if there is anybody willing to build the hull, > keel, and ballast and I would finish the interior, rigging, painting, > but even if there is, I fear the cost would be too high for me. My > budget is really tight. So I guess that's not an option for me. Buying > used might be the right one. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14102|14074|2007-08-21 16:39:19|Bill Jaine|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Peter, based upon this experience can you extrapolate this to a sailboat? Bill peter_d_wiley wrote: > > I strongly disagree and I've been thru more severe gales than most > people here. In the last > 6 years alone I've spent more than 12 months at sea in the Southern > Ocean on > icebreakers. Our std practice is to steam to weather just fast enough > to maintain steerage, > with the waves just off the port bow. The motion is pretty bad, but > every other method of > dealing with severe weather is worse. > > A series of larger waves will virtually stop the vessel and lose > steerage way, so the man on > the wheel is juggling propellor pitch all the time. > > If you run for it, surfing a 6500 tonne vessel down a 20m wave is an > interesting > experience but needs a lot more finesse than steaming to weather. You > also get a long > way further from where you wanted to go, often enough. > > PDW > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14103|14103|2007-08-21 17:18:47|Alex Christie|at sea|I am at sea again, going to be a few days delivering my BS 36 up here up Vancouver Island from nanaimo, so there is no group moderation until I'm back. This means all the spam I've been filtering by hand will get through to the group. Please be patient and enjoy the free ads for hot cam-girls, sub-prime mortgages and cam-girlz as best you can. Make liberal use of your delete button. Y'all have no idea how much crap I filter out of the group when I should be back on my boat digging around in the engine bilge oil for lost bolts which fell out of the mounting brackets on the way across the strait! (true story). Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14104|14071|2007-08-21 21:37:58|brentswain38|Re: Introduction and History|I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem dtermines the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes smooth bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft topsides , and cut the plate out that way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Tad, > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. I made > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on that his > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I always > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine starts. A > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel is much > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls together. > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow actually takes > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your boat is > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tadrbrts" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14105|14074|2007-08-21 21:41:51|brentswain38|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|A sailboat could never make any progress or be controled going directly into a headsea in a gale. I prefer a drogue off the stern quarter. Off the bow , a sailboat simply lies beam to the sea, and puts a huge load on the drogue and its rode.Off the stern the windage and loads are minimised, as is chafe . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > Peter, based upon this experience can you extrapolate this to a sailboat? > Bill > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > I strongly disagree and I've been thru more severe gales than most > > people here. In the last > > 6 years alone I've spent more than 12 months at sea in the Southern > > Ocean on > > icebreakers. Our std practice is to steam to weather just fast enough > > to maintain steerage, > > with the waves just off the port bow. The motion is pretty bad, but > > every other method of > > dealing with severe weather is worse. > > > > A series of larger waves will virtually stop the vessel and lose > > steerage way, so the man on > > the wheel is juggling propellor pitch all the time. > > > > If you run for it, surfing a 6500 tonne vessel down a 20m wave is an > > interesting > > experience but needs a lot more finesse than steaming to weather. You > > also get a long > > way further from where you wanted to go, often enough. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14106|14074|2007-08-22 04:00:45|peter_d_wiley|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|No, I wouldn't even attempt to. The power available is way different, the size difference is enormous and the underwater hull shapes are different. All I'm saying is, steaming to weather works for big power vessels. Saying that it's evidence of poor seamanship just demonstrates a limited amount of experience in the real world. Keep in mind, power vessels like to roll. They need to be kept close to head to sea, or maybe running off. However, running off gets real interesting even in a big ship because you really don't want to broach - see 'ships like to roll'. Also, unless you want to get to where the weather wants to push you, running will take you a long way away in a gale lasting 6 days. You've got to recover that ground sometime. Steaming at around 3 knots to weather loses less ground, is fast enough to maintain steerage and minimises the water over the bow, and slamming. I am never taking a sailboat into the waters I've worked in for years let alone a small power boat. Someone else can have all the bragging rights they like. They'll earn them and I'll buy the first round of drinks. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > Peter, based upon this experience can you extrapolate this to a sailboat? > Bill > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > I strongly disagree and I've been thru more severe gales than most > > people here. In the last > > 6 years alone I've spent more than 12 months at sea in the Southern > > Ocean on > > icebreakers. Our std practice is to steam to weather just fast enough > > to maintain steerage, > > with the waves just off the port bow. The motion is pretty bad, but > > every other method of > > dealing with severe weather is worse. > > > > A series of larger waves will virtually stop the vessel and lose > > steerage way, so the man on > > the wheel is juggling propellor pitch all the time. > > > > If you run for it, surfing a 6500 tonne vessel down a 20m wave is an > > interesting > > experience but needs a lot more finesse than steaming to weather. You > > also get a long > > way further from where you wanted to go, often enough. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14107|14074|2007-08-22 06:00:10|Wally Paine|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|To my mind the trick for the inexperienced (of which I am one) is to "practise in good conditions what one will have to do in bad" (someone else's words - I forget whose). That is: reefing, recovering a man overboard under sail and also under power, going to the mast head, streaming a drogue from where ever, navigating from down below without a GPS, sailing up to moorings etc etc. And then again in middling conditions. That way you will get to know your boat, what to do if things happen suddenly, what you need for a job and where to stow it. Thinking, reading and talking about it is important but not sufficient, so one needs to develop drills and practise them. One thing one can think about is to go below and imagine the boat up side down and shaken. What will not stay put? Then you can do something about stowage and perhaps develop a "secured for sea" drill and also a "secured for storm" drill, the latter to be carried out before conditions make it impossible. (And both proved practical by practise.) Wally Paine --- jim dorey wrote: > Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > > > You have to know how your boat handles and how bad > the weather really is and what direction > > it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off > the bow, off the stern, heave to, run > > with it, etc. > > any generic rules available, as a starting point? i > figure it's dependent on wind, wave and > current direction, wave size, as well as size and > shape of the boat, maybe somebody can figure > the best start points out for those of us not quite > ready to dive in. > ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html| 14108|14103|2007-08-22 06:26:21|T & D Cain|Re: at sea|Enjoy the time, the group ought to be able to cope. The bolt story could be told later??? Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2007 6:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] at sea I am at sea again, going to be a few days delivering my BS 36 up here up Vancouver Island from nanaimo, so there is no group moderation until I'm back. This means all the spam I've been filtering by hand will get through to the group. Please be patient and enjoy the free ads for hot cam-girls, sub-prime mortgages and cam-girlz as best you can. Make liberal use of your delete button. Y'all have no idea how much crap I filter out of the group when I should be back on my boat digging around in the engine bilge oil for lost bolts which fell out of the mounting brackets on the way across the strait! (true story). Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14109|14109|2007-08-22 07:08:07|Gerd|YAGO 36 Hulls folded|Hi all, I know I was bit quiet lately ;-) but really very busy. Does not mean that I neglected boats, just not my own (can't get around to that at the moment..) I just wanted to let you know that the 36 version of my YAGO has been started in Florida. The panels were laser cut from full size sheets, and the 2 half hulls look very nice indeed. They will now be blasted and painted before being assembled along the center. I put up a new section with the first building pictures on my site: http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogsection/12/105/ BTW, because the subject just came up: the design was done and patterns prepared on Rhino, with export to autocad format for cutting files. To develop the hull, I always did similar to what Tad describes, use the central (chined) part as is to cut the darts from, then create the conical ends seperately, join it all together and then fiddle around until you get nice sweet curves. Brent does the same on models. Then I check the length of the curve lines against the original joints along the center, the transom the bow, the deck... and spent a lot of time fairing and adjusting. It's the curves only that define the shape in teh end. There is a section in teh downloadable workbook on my site that gives a description of the process with pictures. Rhino is great for that. I think Touchcad can do it in a single move, but I do not really like the user interface and handling of the program, and Rhino keeps getting better and better. for Hydro, there is a great plugin from Rhinomarine3d.com. Before that I also start out with a hard chine Hull, which is also the base for my hydro calcs. The finished Origami hull is smaller in the ends, because the curved conical section are necessarily inside the chined version, resulting in slightly smaller coeffs for prismatic, block etc, and you have to account for that. That is one of the reasons I tend to make my darts rather long and low at the bow (the original chine joins the bow at the waterline) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 14110|14110|2007-08-22 13:33:36|thomas lee|Griffith&Moitessier|Amigos: The Ultimate Reads Blue Water by Bob Griffith/Sail/Boston/1975 A Sea Vagabond's World by Moitessier (adieu Cruising World Politics) K I S --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14111|14111|2007-08-22 14:39:56|jrhix_101|DOCKSBYOWNER|A GREAT PLACE FOR EVERY ONE. DocksByOwner-Dock For Rent/Sale Listing [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14112|14074|2007-08-22 16:35:17|Bill Jaine|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Somewhere i have the drawings for the coast guard series drogue....sold commercially as the "jordan series drogue" I have found that running before a sea is much more palatable than pounding into it. The scariest part is when you realise that you have to turn around from the pounding and timing that is a little scary. Though I have to admit the most exhilarating sailing (other than a 16 foot Hobie in a good wind) was surfing our 32 foot boat down huge waves with the knotmeter pegged at over 11 knots off the coast of Oxnard. Bill > > A sailboat could never make any progress or be controled going > directly into a headsea in a gale. I prefer a drogue off the stern > quarter. Off the bow , a sailboat simply lies beam to the sea, and > puts a huge load on the drogue and its rode. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14113|14110|2007-08-22 17:17:59|brentswain38|Re: Griffith&Moitessier|"The long way" and "Cape Horn the Logical Route "are also some great reads by Moitessier. Hard to put down. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee wrote: > > > > > Amigos: The Ultimate Reads > > Blue Water by Bob Griffith/Sail/Boston/1975 > > A Sea Vagabond's World by Moitessier (adieu Cruising World > Politics) > > > K I S > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14114|14074|2007-08-22 17:23:14|brentswain38|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|The series drogue is a great invention, but extreemly tedious to make up. I got to 25 cones and gave up. May finish them later. I have used a tire with one side cut out , the wire rim left in and turned inside out. The advantage of these is you can find a tire ont he beach anywhere before making a long passage , use it and throw it back overboard when you are done with it. You can chain several together , then stack them inside one another for more compact storage. They are virtually indesructable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > Somewhere i have the drawings for the coast guard series drogue....sold > commercially as the "jordan series drogue" > I have found that running before a sea is much more palatable than > pounding into it. > The scariest part is when you realise that you have to turn around from > the pounding and timing that is a little scary. > Though I have to admit the most exhilarating sailing (other than a 16 > foot Hobie in a good wind) was surfing our 32 foot boat down huge waves > with the knotmeter pegged at over 11 knots off the coast of Oxnard. > Bill > > > > A sailboat could never make any progress or be controled going > > directly into a headsea in a gale. I prefer a drogue off the stern > > quarter. Off the bow , a sailboat simply lies beam to the sea, and > > puts a huge load on the drogue and its rode. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14115|14065|2007-08-22 17:32:56|Alex Christie|sailing|hey all, i am out here on the strait of Georgia, sending this by cellular phone, in my newly aquired BS36 SHAIR off Lasqueti Island. she's steering herself, armchair comfort, perfect weather. This has to be one of life's greater pleasures this side of heaven. The only thing missing is the rum and an all-female crew. My bearded 1st mate Attila the Hun, however, saved much grief by discovering 4 engine mount bolts missing, n has proved his worth!--Alex ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433| 14116|14103|2007-08-23 07:58:25|Carl Anderson|Pictures Alex!!!!|we want to see her! Alex Christie wrote: > > > I am at sea again, going to be a few days delivering my BS 36 up here up > Vancouver Island from nanaimo, so there is no group moderation until I'm > back. This means all the spam I've been filtering by hand will get > through to the group. Please be patient and enjoy the free ads for hot > cam-girls, sub-prime mortgages and cam-girlz as best you can. Make > liberal use of your delete button. Y'all have no idea how much crap I > filter out of the group when I should be back on my boat digging around > in the engine bilge oil for lost bolts which fell out of the mounting > brackets on the way across the strait! (true story). > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14117|14074|2007-08-23 08:48:25|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|There are many books about heaving-to in heavy weather. You can find them at most book stores. One time I can remember Heaving-to down between NZ and Aus, we had a borderline Cyclone come and ended up by putting the helm down and backing a reefed Staysail. Many of the other cruisers that were out there, decided to run with it and wait for it to pass, found out later that it had put them, on average, 400nm off course. As for us we went down below for 2 days, periodically checking things on deck. We looked at our track and found that we had done a huge circle putting us only 3nm away from our original starting point. That being said there are several different ways of dealing with heavy weather. Try some of the different options in good weather and see how you and your boat handles. Then as you get more comfortable with the boat and maneuvers try doing the same thing on a day where there is more wind and larger sea's. You may find that your boat handles in the increased wind and sea just as in good weather. But you also may find that a different approach may be necessary. Best time for learning is before you need it. Keep in mind that nothing is Black and White, there are just too many variables. Hope this helps Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: jim dorey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 1:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction > it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run > with it, etc. any generic rules available, as a starting point? i figure it's dependent on wind, wave and current direction, wave size, as well as size and shape of the boat, maybe somebody can figure the best start points out for those of us not quite ready to dive in. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14118|14118|2007-08-23 14:03:05|Jonathan Stevens|Kubota 20hp|Dear All Eighteen is going together nicely. Hull tacked down the middle. It has a slightly different shape to that envisaged so I am having to make templates of the decks from the boat rather than use the ones from my lofting. Exciting news is a friend tells me he has a Kubota 20hp with hydrostatic pump and three motors from some golf course scarifier. They got rid of it because it kept going slower and slower. My diesel experience is limited to changing filters and bleeding fuel through after running out; any advice as to what may be needed to fix it up? Please. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14119|14071|2007-08-23 20:47:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Introduction and History|Brent, I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of your 36 footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any fiberglass boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I scanned in the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are even the remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have compound curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always got this crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel because it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite direction and it only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to prevent it from happening. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem dtermines the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes smooth bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft topsides , and cut the plate out that way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Tad, > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. I made > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on that his > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I always > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine starts. A > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel is much > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls together. > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow actually takes > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your boat is > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tadrbrts" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard boats > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 years, and > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in Silva Bay > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats and a > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, which > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful for it) > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is that we > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was able to > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14120|14071|2007-08-24 01:31:51|Gerd|Re: Introduction and History|Gary Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very different things depending on how you go about it - and that again will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull you will get when you fold the pattern. Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have a look Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of your 36 > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any fiberglass > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I scanned in > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are even the > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have compound > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always got this > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel because > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite direction and it > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to prevent it > from happening. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem dtermines > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes smooth > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft topsides , > and cut the plate out that way. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Tad, > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. > I made > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on > that his > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I > always > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > starts. A > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel > is much > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > together. > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > actually takes > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your > boat is > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "tadrbrts" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard > boats > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > years, and > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > Silva Bay > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats > and a > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, > which > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > for it) > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > that we > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > able to > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 14121|14103|2007-08-24 07:02:13|Alex|Re: Pictures Alex!!!!|Well, I made it to home port in BS36 Shair, and I've posted a pic taken by my crewman, the indomitable Attila the Hun, who climbed up the mast to grab the shot you see on the group home page. So I've finally completed delivery of my "new" boat (note bent hand-rails, smashed from an encounter with a breakwater she crunched against all night when she let go anchor on the previous owner). This is the same boat "Shair" posted in an album of same name in photo section a long time ago. Never knew I'd end up owning her! It's been very interesting jumping into "someone else's" boat, as there were things done on it which I would have never thought of. And I mean that in both positive and negative perspectives! It's all positive, however, if you look at the experience as something useful to build on. I have decided to keep working on my other hull and filming that process, while enjoying the use of this one, also fixing it up to my taste. Number one thing I'd like is roller-furling. I felt like a sail-training cadet running back and forth changing headsails, and I'm lazy. Second thing I'd add is lazyjacks so that the main can flake easily into a nice pile when we drop sail. Third thing is add an inner forestay so that I can throw on more sail for the flukey light summer winds around here. The engine bolts must have vibrated themselves loose a long time ago, and some just snapped their heads off, possibly while we were crossing the strait. They were simply standard bolts. I replaced with number 8 for safety once we got to an auto parts store in nanaimo. There was a terrible racket from the propshaft all across the strait...live and learn. I was amazed the engine did not leap off it's mounts, who had dropped their nuts. Lucky! The gear-shifter also kind of fell apart while we were docking near million dollar yachts in Nanaimo harbour. Time for new gear shifter. We anchored out a lot after that! All in all it was a pleasurable sailing expedition up the BC coast to Central Vancouver Island, and certainly there is nothing like using a boat to find out all the weakpoints it may have, then replace and improve all those things as they come up. One thing for certain is that I have not slept that well in a long time, and the healthy stress of paying attention to the workings of a boat underway really does displace most unhealthy internal stresses - there is simply very little room for excessive navel-gazing when you are picking you way through a narrow rock-strewn channel. Sailing also seems to work every muscle fiber in your body, and I feel very "worked over" from being in that state of constant motion. In time I know it will strengthen me considerably! I'll post some photos of the boat tomorrow, streaky sides and smashed handrails and all, plus a sunset photo from anchor at Lasqueti Island (great place, but only propane available Fridays between 1 and 3 PM, and we had to buy BBQ briquettes in order to cook our food, which we did on the aft deck with a piece of aluminum folded into a hibachi of sorts. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > we want to see her! > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > > I am at sea again, going to be a few days delivering my BS 36 up here up > > Vancouver Island from nanaimo, so there is no group moderation until I'm > > back. This means all the spam I've been filtering by hand will get > > through to the group. Please be patient and enjoy the free ads for hot > > cam-girls, sub-prime mortgages and cam-girlz as best you can. Make > > liberal use of your delete button. Y'all have no idea how much crap I > > filter out of the group when I should be back on my boat digging around > > in the engine bilge oil for lost bolts which fell out of the mounting > > brackets on the way across the strait! (true story). > > > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14123|14074|2007-08-24 12:15:58|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Knut, I too was a little hesitant about making any comments, but having spending a lot of time down in the Southern Oceans, between NZ and Aus, both on power and sail ranging from 28' to 150'+ I felt that I just could not let this go. Mike, Not knowing your experience or what size and type of vessel you have, I hope that I have not offended you. My point was only to take a look at the big picture as with any situation aboard good or bad there are many many different factors to consider. Even a Good Captain doesn't always make the right decision. However a Good Captain should be able to realize, early on, that if His/Her first decision is not working out, you should be able to make another decision. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Knut F Garshol To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit Hi Cameron, that supply ship for the oil operations in the North Sea comes from the Bergen area on the W coast of Norway (like myself). I was also very tempted to comment along the lines you already did, but since they were fellow Norwegians I thought it would just sound like prestige reaction on my part. I agree with your evaluations. I may also add that these guys are on stand-by around the platforms for long periods of time. With the frequent and violent storms during winter in the North Sea, this kind of situation is pretty close to a routine part of the job. I don't think you get the impression of high stress or excitement among the crew by listening to the weak audio on the video clip. Most likely the ship on the video was on stand-by and NOT powering into the sea with more than steering speed. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit Mike, I think that you need to re-evaluate your term of Bad Seamanship and have a look at type of boat and circumstances. 1. If you have ever been in a large power boat in heavy weather, more times than not you will find that there are 1 to 1.5 waves per length of the boat. Hence, as showed in this Vid the flare of the bow getting slammed by the wave. Reason for this is because the previous wave is still lifting the stern into the air!!!! 2. This Vid represents a Power boat, not a sail boat. Go back and study Stability Curves!!!! If you were to try and run with it, in that situation, there would be no way you could get enough speed for steerage. What would most likely happen is that the following sea would lift the stern, the natural shape of the hull coupled with the force of the sea would cause the vessel to broach, and given that it is a power boat its point of no return would be 85 degrees at BEST!!! Keep in mind what your percentages would be of a roll over for not going straight into it, vrs. the boat breaking in half by going straight into it!!!! 3. One maneuver that is stated in heavy weather for both power or sail is to put a Sea Anchor off the Bow. Putting the vessel head on to the Seas, thus reducing the chance of a roll over!!! Is this bad Seamanship??? Unless you are there and know the complete situation its hard to say. Have you ever wondered why of all the video's/ pictures you have seen of large power boats in heavy weather, they are always going straight into it. Usually just fast enough to maintain steerage. By your statements every Captain of a large vessel must have BAD Seamanship!!!!!! Now if this were a Vid of a sail boat 1. Unless the sail boat was of similar size, they mostlikely would not have enough horsepower to motor straight into it. And there are several ways of dealing with bad weather. You have to know how your boat handles and how bad the weather really is and what direction it is going, to decide if you put a sea anchor off the bow, off the stern, heave to, run with it, etc. 2. The characteristics of Sail and Power are very different and choices of Seaman Ship should be made accordingly. 3. Just because you would do one thing in a 26 - 50' sail boat doesn't mean you would do the same in a 120'+ motor boat. A good Captain and GOOD Seamanship is being able to evaluate the circumstances of everything involved, including Type and Size of Vessel, Sea State, Ability of Crew, Current and Forecasted Weather Conditions, always have a plan B incase plan A is not working out. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: mkriley48 To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit what we have here is a very good example of BAD seamanship. powering directly into very heavy seas is a recipe for disaster. any boat can break. mike --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Last little vid. for the day. You know Brent hammers all the time in > this group about building strong strong STRONG... if you're taking a > relatively small boat into the deep blue. > He's right. > Here's why.... > > http://www.youtube com/watch?v=fX2Augg8Zk8 > > After you've watched this , recall his comments about hull integrity, > sea rejecting ventilation, small leakproof ports, and a secure steel > doghouse for inside steering, and conservative strongly stayed rigs, > and hulls with lots of self righting ability that can sit down in the > water. > > these waves are stated to be 10 to 15 meters, around 50 feet max..they > get bigger...a LOT bigger..worst storm I've ever sailed in had US > coast guard reported over sixty footers...with the odd set coming in > at substantially more than that. An over 100 foot commercial fishing > boat broke apart and went down, something like ten boats lost in > total. We've spent a lot of text recently talking about > longer/thinner/ wider/shallower/deeper etc....whatever you do, imho u > don't want to deviate too far from a solid proven design...and then > build it STRONG :) > > I heard an experienced ocean racer once say that most blue water > sailors won't experience a major storm but once in their > careers..BUT,,it only takes one :) With any luck, i'm home free now > lol, but i'm not betting on it... > > seer > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14124|14124|2007-08-24 12:24:19|raising_awareness_worldwide|Custom Logo Design Service: $99!|Custom Logo Design Service: $99! As a recommendation from a friend, I used Paramount Web Consulting to do my logo. After my initial logo concepts I was able to make as many revisions as needed that is what I liked about them. The last company I dealt with kept asking me for more money to make revisions. So definitely if any of you guys need a logo check em out here is the link: http://www.pwcwebmasters.com/ Good week all!| 14125|14074|2007-08-24 13:28:58|seeratlas|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|Brent, What size line do you use on a drogue like that. I can imagine the shape of the finished "retread" :) sounds pretty darned effective, and with a little experimenting, given the loads of different size tires laying around, should be pretty easy to match an individual boat. Great idea. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The series drogue is a great invention, but extreemly tedious to make > up. I got to 25 cones and gave up. May finish them later. I have used > a tire with one side cut out , the wire rim left in and turned inside > out. The advantage of these is you can find a tire ont he beach > anywhere before making a long passage , use it and throw it back > overboard when you are done with it. You can chain several together , > then stack them inside one another for more compact storage. They are > virtually indesructable. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > > > Somewhere i have the drawings for the coast guard series drogue....sold > > commercially as the "jordan series drogue" > > I have found that running before a sea is much more palatable than > > pounding into it. > > The scariest part is when you realise that you have to turn around from > > the pounding and timing that is a little scary. > > Though I have to admit the most exhilarating sailing (other than a 16 > > foot Hobie in a good wind) was surfing our 32 foot boat down huge waves > > with the knotmeter pegged at over 11 knots off the coast of Oxnard. > > Bill > > > > > > A sailboat could never make any progress or be controled going > > > directly into a headsea in a gale. I prefer a drogue off the stern > > > quarter. Off the bow , a sailboat simply lies beam to the sea, and > > > puts a huge load on the drogue and its rode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14126|14126|2007-08-24 17:08:14|origamiboats|photos of Alex's after cabin 36 posted|I have put some photos from my trip under "Alex's Aft Cabin BS36"!| 14127|14074|2007-08-24 18:20:26|brentswain38|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|I use 3/4 nylon braid, altho 1/2 inch is probably plenty. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > What size line do you use on a drogue like that. I can imagine the > shape of the finished "retread" :) sounds pretty darned effective, and > with a little experimenting, given the loads of different size tires > laying around, should be pretty easy to match an individual boat. > Great idea. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > The series drogue is a great invention, but extreemly tedious to make > > up. I got to 25 cones and gave up. May finish them later. I have used > > a tire with one side cut out , the wire rim left in and turned inside > > out. The advantage of these is you can find a tire ont he beach > > anywhere before making a long passage , use it and throw it back > > overboard when you are done with it. You can chain several together , > > then stack them inside one another for more compact storage. They are > > virtually indesructable. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > > > > > Somewhere i have the drawings for the coast guard series > drogue....sold > > > commercially as the "jordan series drogue" > > > I have found that running before a sea is much more palatable than > > > pounding into it. > > > The scariest part is when you realise that you have to turn around > from > > > the pounding and timing that is a little scary. > > > Though I have to admit the most exhilarating sailing (other than a 16 > > > foot Hobie in a good wind) was surfing our 32 foot boat down huge > waves > > > with the knotmeter pegged at over 11 knots off the coast of Oxnard. > > > Bill > > > > > > > > A sailboat could never make any progress or be controled going > > > > directly into a headsea in a gale. I prefer a drogue off the stern > > > > quarter. Off the bow , a sailboat simply lies beam to the sea, and > > > > puts a huge load on the drogue and its rode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14128|14074|2007-08-25 02:27:43|sae140|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The series drogue is a great invention, but extreemly tedious to make > up. I got to 25 cones and gave up. May finish them later. You might want to check out US Patent 4534306 for another series-drogue design. 4632051 shows a very simple to make basket-drogue (car seat-belt webbing is ideal for this). See: http://www.hathaways.com/galerider/default.asp for the commercial offering. Can't see why a couple of smaller versions of these couldn't be used in series. Colin| 14129|14071|2007-08-25 15:40:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Introduction and History|Gerd, My model was done using only conic sections, no lofting. If you look at Brent's patterns you'll see that they can be reduced to several conic sections. So the surfaces can be flattened without distortion. The point I am making is that the process of pulling a hull together creates compound curvature, which is what makes it impossible to model a hull as it is really shaped and then produce a flat sheet pattern. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History Gary Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very different things depending on how you go about it - and that again will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull you will get when you fold the pattern. Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have a look Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of your 36 > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any fiberglass > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I scanned in > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are even the > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have compound > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always got this > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel because > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite direction and it > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to prevent it > from happening. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem dtermines > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes smooth > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft topsides , > and cut the plate out that way. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Tad, > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the hull. > I made > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early on > that his > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it I > always > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > starts. A > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that steel > is much > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > together. > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > actually takes > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if your > boat is > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to model the > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "tadrbrts" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living aboard > boats > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > years, and > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > Silva Bay > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin steel > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish boats > and a > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type boat, > which > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to upload some > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about 36' on > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami hull > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To my eye > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I wanted. > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > for it) > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is true of > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come before it. > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > that we > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. This > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > able to > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 14130|14071|2007-08-25 21:36:02|seeratlas|Re: Introduction and History|I have a question, is there anyway to predict with certainty where these curves will occur and what they'll look like BEFORE you actually build one up? I imagine some kind of metal to scale model might clue you in? Second, I would assume that more or fewer longitudinals or longitudinals of larger or smaller sections would also influence such curves. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Gerd, > My model was done using only conic sections, no lofting. If you look at > Brent's patterns you'll see that they can be reduced to several conic > sections. So the surfaces can be flattened without distortion. The point I > am making is that the process of pulling a hull together creates compound > curvature, which is what makes it impossible to model a hull as it is really > shaped and then produce a flat sheet pattern. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > Gary > Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an > illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern > folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. > On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very > different things depending on how you go about it - and that again > will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. > So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull > you will get when you fold the pattern. > Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have > a look > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of > your 36 > > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any > fiberglass > > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I > scanned in > > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are > even the > > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have > compound > > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always > got this > > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel > because > > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite > direction and it > > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to > prevent it > > from happening. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem > dtermines > > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes > smooth > > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft > topsides , > > and cut the plate out that way. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Tad, > > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the > hull. > > I made > > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early > on > > that his > > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it > I > > always > > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > > starts. A > > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that > steel > > is much > > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > > together. > > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > > actually takes > > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if > your > > boat is > > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to > model the > > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tadrbrts" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living > aboard > > boats > > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > > years, and > > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > > Silva Bay > > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin > steel > > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish > boats > > and a > > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type > boat, > > which > > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to > upload some > > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about > 36' on > > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami > hull > > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To > my eye > > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I > wanted. > > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > > for it) > > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is > true of > > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come > before it. > > > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > > that we > > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. > This > > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > > able to > > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14131|14071|2007-08-26 03:05:25|Gerd|Re: Introduction and History|Not really, Seer... I think here are many different elements that have an influence: the length of conical part, the way you pull it and where you fix your come alongs, the material, the length of the stringers, where you start joining the hulls and so on... Differences are small though, and limited to what the plate will bomb into easily undertension. Looking at Gregs pictures, it seems as if aluminium might also give you more compound curve than steel, but that's just from looking at the pics. Gerd Tha Yago-Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I have a question, is there anyway to predict with certainty where > these curves will occur and what they'll look like BEFORE you actually > build one up? I imagine some kind of metal to scale model might clue > you in? Second, I would assume that more or fewer longitudinals or > longitudinals of larger or smaller sections would also influence such > curves. > > seer | 14132|14071|2007-08-26 03:42:26|Gerd|Re: Introduction and History|Gary, I think we are saying the same thing ;-) In the end it depends to what purpose you make a digital model. if you want to use it to extract the pattern with it's curves, you have to create it from developable surfaces, and actually they do not need to fit or look nicely within the hull surface, as long as they will reproduce the boundaries correctly. If on the other hand you want to create a hull that would look like the finished hull for presentation, you would create the surface by lofting and adjusting the lines in the compund areas, hardening the points along the chine etc I usually create 3 different models: 1 - the hard chine version, with full length chines, and one surface per chine panel. That one is easy to manipulate during design and calculation, so that's what I develop the design with originally. 2 - the "patched" model build out of only multiple developable areas, that is used to extract the pattern. Rhino natively may have problems running hydrostatics on that one if you don't manage to patch it so that all surfaces are really closed and joined properly and sometimes does some funny things... The Rhinomarine plug-in is far better and much more complete. It's not cheap, but there is a free trial version that will last long enough to calculate just one hull. (http://www.rhinomarine3d.com) 3 - the presentation model, one single surface per half hull, smoothed and with a lightly compound curvature for and aft. This one can not be unrolled. You then can run your hydrostatics on all three, and the real numbers are somewhere in between ;-) Differences are small, but you have to keep it in mind, and design the first hard chine model slightly fuller than the parameters you are targeting. (just a note: for running rhinomarine, you MUST make sure that all surfaces are properly outward oriente ind direction, otherwise it produces nonsense. I sometime forget and thn noting fits....) Gerd The Yago-Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Gerd, > My model was done using only conic sections, no lofting. If you look at > Brent's patterns you'll see that they can be reduced to several conic > sections. So the surfaces can be flattened without distortion. The point I > am making is that the process of pulling a hull together creates compound > curvature, which is what makes it impossible to model a hull as it is really > shaped and then produce a flat sheet pattern. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > Gary > Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an > illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern > folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. > On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very > different things depending on how you go about it - and that again > will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. > So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull > you will get when you fold the pattern. > Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have > a look > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of > your 36 > > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any > fiberglass > > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I > scanned in > > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are > even the > > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have > compound > > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always > got this > > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel > because > > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite > direction and it > > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to > prevent it > > from happening. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem > dtermines > > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes > smooth > > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft > topsides , > > and cut the plate out that way. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Tad, > > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the > hull. > > I made > > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early > on > > that his > > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it > I > > always > > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > > starts. A > > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that > steel > > is much > > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > > together. > > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > > actually takes > > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if > your > > boat is > > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to > model the > > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tadrbrts" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living > aboard > > boats > > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > > years, and > > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > > Silva Bay > > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin > steel > > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish > boats > > and a > > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type > boat, > > which > > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to > upload some > > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about > 36' on > > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami > hull > > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To > my eye > > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I > wanted. > > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > > for it) > > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is > true of > > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come > before it. > > > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > > that we > > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. > This > > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > > able to > > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14133|14071|2007-08-26 13:58:00|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Introduction and History|I did a little work trying to come up with an answer to this. I was hoping to be able to accurately model the hull shape you would get because I'd like to be able to model the interior. It looks to me like an accurate model of the interior would be useful. From what I have seen fitting out the interior is difficult to plan, and screwing up is very easy and time consuming. You start filling the hull from the bow working back, and then find out that if you had just placed that bulkhead a 1/2" further forward you would have had room for that stove, but now you'll have to get a different one to fit the space! I think I came up with a way to model the actual compound curve you would get quite accurately. Start from my fully developable sheet, that shows the crease. The dimensions of this sheet are very accurate. If you make the assumption that forcing a compound curve into it is only going to change any dimension across the surface of the sheet by a VERY small amount then you can create smooth curves representing the actual compound curvature, which have the same length as the straight line that crosses the crease between two points on the sheet. This appears to work quite well. I only did a small portion of the bow though to see how it works. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History I have a question, is there anyway to predict with certainty where these curves will occur and what they'll look like BEFORE you actually build one up? I imagine some kind of metal to scale model might clue you in? Second, I would assume that more or fewer longitudinals or longitudinals of larger or smaller sections would also influence such curves. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Gerd, > My model was done using only conic sections, no lofting. If you look at > Brent's patterns you'll see that they can be reduced to several conic > sections. So the surfaces can be flattened without distortion. The point I > am making is that the process of pulling a hull together creates compound > curvature, which is what makes it impossible to model a hull as it is really > shaped and then produce a flat sheet pattern. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > Gary > Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an > illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern > folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. > On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very > different things depending on how you go about it - and that again > will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. > So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull > you will get when you fold the pattern. > Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have > a look > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of > your 36 > > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any > fiberglass > > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I > scanned in > > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are > even the > > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have > compound > > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always > got this > > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel > because > > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite > direction and it > > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to > prevent it > > from happening. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem > dtermines > > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes > smooth > > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft > topsides , > > and cut the plate out that way. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Tad, > > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the > hull. > > I made > > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early > on > > that his > > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it > I > > always > > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > > starts. A > > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that > steel > > is much > > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > > together. > > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > > actually takes > > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if > your > > boat is > > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to > model the > > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tadrbrts" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living > aboard > > boats > > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > > years, and > > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > > Silva Bay > > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin > steel > > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish > boats > > and a > > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type > boat, > > which > > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to > upload some > > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about > 36' on > > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami > hull > > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To > my eye > > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I > wanted. > > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > > for it) > > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is > true of > > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come > before it. > > > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > > that we > > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. > This > > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > > able to > > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14134|14071|2007-08-27 04:00:11|Gerd|Re: Introduction and History|Gary - for planning a layout, a model with hard chines along the full length of the hull should be ok. There is not much difference in volume, actually there is no difference at all in the central part where you have the darts (it's simply a hard-chine hull there) and in the ends you loose a little in width, but not that much. Now, if you would want to do detailed construction drwaings from where to actually trace, cut and build your interior elements, that's another story... but I don't think that's worth doing, it's A LOT of work and drafting, and for a single boat it's much simpler and easier to make the general layout plan and then build the parts to size in the hull. Actually Rhino is not very good at that anyway, even if the latest version 4 can does a bit of 2D drafting, it is still mainly a surface modeller, not a construction oriented CAD system like Autocad or solid modellers, most people will - after initial design with Rhino - do construction drafting with another package. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I did a little work trying to come up with an answer to this. I was hoping > to be able to accurately model the hull shape you would get because I'd like > to be able to model the interior. It looks to me like an accurate model of > the interior would be useful. From what I have seen fitting out the > interior is difficult to plan, and screwing up is very easy and time > consuming. You start filling the hull from the bow working back, and then > find out that if you had just placed that bulkhead a 1/2" further forward > you would have had room for that stove, but now you'll have to get a > different one to fit the space! > > I think I came up with a way to model the actual compound curve you would > get quite accurately. Start from my fully developable sheet, that shows the > crease. The dimensions of this sheet are very accurate. If you make the > assumption that forcing a compound curve into it is only going to change any > dimension across the surface of the sheet by a VERY small amount then you > can create smooth curves representing the actual compound curvature, which > have the same length as the straight line that crosses the crease between > two points on the sheet. This appears to work quite well. I only did a > small portion of the bow though to see how it works. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > I have a question, is there anyway to predict with certainty where > these curves will occur and what they'll look like BEFORE you actually > build one up? I imagine some kind of metal to scale model might clue > you in? Second, I would assume that more or fewer longitudinals or > longitudinals of larger or smaller sections would also influence such > curves. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > My model was done using only conic sections, no lofting. If you > look at > > Brent's patterns you'll see that they can be reduced to several conic > > sections. So the surfaces can be flattened without distortion. The > point I > > am making is that the process of pulling a hull together creates > compound > > curvature, which is what makes it impossible to model a hull as it > is really > > shaped and then produce a flat sheet pattern. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerd" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > > > > Gary > > Any linesplan for an origami hull is only an approximation, an > > illustration, as the hull will be simply what the the real pattern > > folds into - and that is determined only by the curves of the contour. > > On the other hand, Rhino, when lofting the surfaces, will create very > > different things depending on how you go about it - and that again > > will only be 3D model and has no effect on the resulting hull. > > So whatever crease you get in Rhino, that is not related to the hull > > you will get when you fold the pattern. > > Rhino can be tricky - if you want, you can send me the file ad I have > > a look > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > I know that your hulls have very fair curves, I've sailed on one of > > your 36 > > > footers in Olympia. At the dock the hull was as fair as any > > fiberglass > > > boat. However I bought a set of your plans for the 31 footer. I > > scanned in > > > the lines and brought them into Rhino. If your lines drawings are > > even the > > > remotest bit correct then it is clear that the bow sections have > > compound > > > curvature. In trying to model conic sections of the bow I always > > got this > > > crease. I believe the crease doesn't occur when you do it in steel > > because > > > it would take huge forces to bend the steel in the opposite > > direction and it > > > only takes a little support from the thickness of the steel to > > prevent it > > > from happening. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:35 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History > > > > > > > > > I've never hada creasing problem. The curvature of the stem > > dtermines > > > the shape of the foreward sections. A smooth fair curve makes > > smooth > > > bow sections. a knuckle in the stem makes a knuckle int he bow > > > sections.A straight stem has a similar efect. > > > I started with models , withth echine running full length, thencut > > > the bottom patern in half and joined it to the fore and aft > > topsides , > > > and cut the plate out that way. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Tad, > > > > I'd be interested in knowing more about how you developed the > > hull. > > > I made > > > > a small effort to model a Swain hull in Rhino. I realized early > > on > > > that his > > > > hull form is several conical sections. However when I modeled it > > I > > > always > > > > got a crease running from the bow to point where the welded chine > > > starts. A > > > > paper model exhibited the same behavior. I then realized that > > steel > > > is much > > > > stiffer and Brent welds in the angles before pulling the hulls > > > together. > > > > The extra stiffness keeps the hull from creasing, and the bow > > > actually takes > > > > on a compound curve not a conical one. So I'd like to know if > > your > > > boat is > > > > entirely developable curves or if you found some easy way to > > model the > > > > compound curvature and flatten it accurately. > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "tadrbrts" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:42 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Introduction and History > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By way of introduction I'll say I've been using and living > > aboard > > > boats > > > > > all my life, I've been a full time yacht designer for over 20 > > > years, and > > > > > I currently live aboard a 40 year old wooden ketch anchored in > > > Silva Bay > > > > > BC. Over the years I have built and sailed some Tom Colvin > > steel > > > > > pinkies, and designed some conventionally framed steel fish > > boats > > > and a > > > > > couple of aluminum sailing yachts up to 134'. > > > > > > > > > > I was recently approached to do a custom steel origami type > > boat, > > > which > > > > > is currently under construction in Louisiana. I'll try to > > upload some > > > > > images after I finish this note. The owner requested a twin keel > > > > > traditional style gaff schooner, with a deckhouse, and about > > 36' on > > > > > deck. Before drawing the hull I looked at a number of origami > > hull > > > > > models, Lundstrom's patent, Gary Curtis's writing, a model from > > > > > origamimagic, one from Brent Swain, and another from yago. To > > my eye > > > > > they all have good and not-so-good points, and none fit what I > > wanted. > > > > > So building on the work of those named above, (and very grateful > > > for it) > > > > > I created my own version of a so-called origami hull. This is > > true of > > > > > all boats, every one is based on every boat that has come > > before it. > > > > > > > > > > One small bit of progress we made with the Ragsdale Schooner is > > > that we > > > > > went directly from the computer model to NC cut hull plates. > > This > > > > > eliminated (for better or worse) layout time and the builder was > > > able to > > > > > start welding as soon as the plates were unloaded. > > > > > > > > > > All the best, Tad > > > > > > > > > > Tad Roberts Yacht Design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14135|14135|2007-08-27 22:37:10|seeratlas|interiors, where do you start?|you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting from one end got me wondering. I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i missing something here? My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my boat, it ought to fit me. :) I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and tile guys start pretty much in the center? seer| 14136|14135|2007-08-27 23:21:49|Tom|Re: interiors, where do you start?|Hello Seer I havnt started the interior of my 26 yet but I'm figuring starting with births first, need to be long enough to be confortable then minimal galley and WC then fit in hanging lockers-cabnets with what room is left. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] interiors, where do you start? > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting > from one end got me wondering. > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > missing something here? > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14137|14135|2007-08-28 03:31:19|Gerd|Re: interiors, where do you start?|From a purely practical point of view, it makes sense to start in the ends and work towards the center. Like that you keep the largest area near the main hatch free for preparing larger panels, moving things around, setting up a small workbench, keeping your tools etc. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting > from one end got me wondering. > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > missing something here? > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > seer > | 14138|14135|2007-08-28 06:24:06|edward_stoneuk|Re: interiors, where do you start?|My wife and I are kind of moving backwards and forwards in our fit out and discussing things as we go along. Some things like electricity cables, water and fuel pipe runs and access to valves impinge on several areas of the boat. It is very easy to forget something. As Seer says a few inches can make a hell of aload of difference in comfort or banging ones head. We started off with the position of the toilet as I have sailed on boats where the toilet was designed to be sat on by people with only one leg. I want both of my feet on the ground as it were. We made semi-temporary mock ups of what we wanted to give us the dimensions and sat and moved about the area to make sure it was what we could live with. Then we mocked up a double bed as that is where we will be spending a lot of time and we don't fancy a claustrophobic poorly ventilated berth. Now we are working in the pilot house and putting in soles at various heights so that we can get in and out and through to the main saloon without banging ones head. We are working out where we can fit the batteries, chart table, stove, access to the engine oil, fuel and water filters, etc. This involves roughing something up and then standing sitting and moving about to see if it suits us. We also try to imagine what this will be like with the boat at funny angles as it will be on the briny. We haven't put in the cockpit and bridge deck yet. This allows us to get larger items into the boat and made it easier to put in the exhaust and coolant pipes. Regards, Ted| 14139|14135|2007-08-28 10:17:47|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|interiors, where do you start?|You're right that the main living space has to be right, but a lot has to fit into the pilot house too, depending on your arrangement. Measurements of stoves, sinks and heads cannot be altered, and if you have too little space left, options may be very limited and disappointing. One thing that cannot be moved is the bridge deck/ main hatch. It seems to make sense to start there and move forward with acccurate mockups making sure of the space for inflexible components, then site the main (possibly partial) bulkhead, then put in the longest components (berths) in the middle, and do all your fudging in the forward compartment. Of course, if you're planning a vee berth that has to be a certain size, overall planning and mocking up in the hull is of utmost importance. Some flexibility may be gained by recessing parts of the feet of berths under other components where possible, providing a handy place for short term stowage of items such as pillows and blankets. Several versions on paper will probably be necessary. Looking at interior arrangements of similar size craft may produce new ideas. Be flexible and when in doubt, simplify; more elaborate arrangements can be added as later projects. This from someone who has not built anything yet but the keels and rudder, but who has made several paper plans and undergone several changes of mind and is still not sure of the final configuration. Been looking this morning at interior arrangements of Herreshoff's Rozinante. Now that's Spartan! But it is a narrow boat with little room below decks. --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14140|14135|2007-08-28 10:49:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: interiors, where do you start?|On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 07:17:15AM -0700, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Measurements of stoves, sinks and heads cannot be altered, and if you > have too little space left, options may be very limited and > disappointing. Y'know, I've seen that said here several times - and I disagree. All of these _can_ be altered: first, by the choices you make (e.g., the sink can be anything from an 8" bowl that doubles as a paint-mixing bucket to an 18-foot long marble "vanity" with a complete built-in makeup counter.) As to the stove, I spent a number of years cruising with a two-burner alcohol stove; I baked my bread (and later taught a girlfriend to do so, which she just loved) in a pressure cooker, on top of a flame-tamer. A head can be even simpler - a good farm bucket will do it (I like the rubberized felt ones; they're hard to find, and cost about $20, but they're nearly indestructible and last for up to 10 years of sitting in the sun.) If the meaning of that phrase is "I've decided what I want, and I'm not willing to go with anything different", that's a different kettle of fish - but let's not start by assuming that there's only The One True Way for anything. It's all pretty flexible, and almost everything comes down to the choices you make. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14141|14135|2007-08-28 13:08:09|edward_stoneuk|interiors, where do you start?|We have put temporary soles in as it is extremely awkward moving about the boat without them. So one could say it is best to start at the bottom and work up. Looking and sailing on other boats to get ideas is very important. Looking in the photo section at boat interiors I cannot see any chart tables. We intend to use a Yeoman chart plotter, which uses a puck connected to a GPS to mark ones position on a paper chart. What kind of chart table and chart arrangements do other group members use? Regards, Ted| 14142|14135|2007-08-28 13:45:13|Joe Earsley|Chart Tables|I like the one I've seen on a pic from Brent's Boat. He has a shallow box pinned to the roof of the cabin that will drop down on the aft edge facing the helm seat. It looks like it holds full size charts. joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re:interiors, where do you start? We have put temporary soles in as it is extremely awkward moving about the boat without them. So one could say it is best to start at the bottom and work up. Looking and sailing on other boats to get ideas is very important. Looking in the photo section at boat interiors I cannot see any chart tables. We intend to use a Yeoman chart plotter, which uses a puck connected to a GPS to mark ones position on a paper chart. What kind of chart table and chart arrangements do other group members use? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 14143|14135|2007-08-28 15:32:12|Paul Wilson|Re: interiors, where do you start?|A lot of people will probably disagree but rarely do I plot a line on a chart anymore. I think it is more important to have a good table to sit down on and use a laptop computer to edit waypoints. I then upload and download the waypoints into the GPS which should always be in the cockpit. Almost all of my navigating is done in the preparation before I leave the anchorage. I double check everything, of course, while I am confortable and unrushed. The last thing I want to do is try to plot waypoints when I am crashing aroung and feeling sick. I print strip charts from the electronic copies for when I am underway and am able to flip through them as we go along. The Yeoman plotters are great but I never felt the need with proper electronic charts. GPS is so cheap and reliable and most people are giving the CMap charts away. My point is, for me the settee table is fine for the navigating. Everything else is done in the cockpit. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:07:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:interiors, where do you start? We have put temporary soles in as it is extremely awkward moving about the boat without them. So one could say it is best to start at the bottom and work up. Looking and sailing on other boats to get ideas is very important. Looking in the photo section at boat interiors I cannot see any chart tables. We intend to use a Yeoman chart plotter, which uses a puck connected to a GPS to mark ones position on a paper chart. What kind of chart table and chart arrangements do other group members use? Regards, Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14144|14135|2007-08-28 16:55:10|Tom|Re: interiors, where do you start?|Hello Ted I have a laptop setup with GPS and mapping software+digital charts, it's allso the entertainment center,movies, music and such. I guess if it quits I will have to do a captain Ron and just pull in somewere and ask directions! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:interiors, where do you start? > We have put temporary soles in as it is extremely awkward moving about > the boat without them. So one could say it is best to start at the > bottom and work up. > > Looking and sailing on other boats to get ideas is very important. > > Looking in the photo section at boat interiors I cannot see any chart > tables. We intend to use a Yeoman chart plotter, which uses a puck > connected to a GPS to mark ones position on a paper chart. What kind > of chart table and chart arrangements do other group members use? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14145|14135|2007-08-28 17:55:45|edward_stoneuk|interiors, where do you start?|Tom, Paul, The chart plotters available today are very impressive bits of kit and I must say I am tempted. My main concern is if the lights go out on a dark and stormy night. I like a bit of redundancy and backup capability in a system. There is also the fact of excercising the brain a bit more with a paper backed system and also less expensive kit left on the boat to be stolen. But there again computers are getting more and more reliable. Regards, Ted| 14146|14135|2007-08-28 18:00:11|edward_stoneuk|Re: Chart Tables|Joe, Where did you see the picture of Brent's boar? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > > I like the one I've seen on a pic from Brent's Boat. He has a shallow > box pinned to the roof of the cabin that will drop down on the aft edge > facing the helm seat. It looks like it holds full size charts. > > joe | 14147|14135|2007-08-28 23:44:13|Paul Wilson|Re: interiors, where do you start?|Ted, I understand your thinking but its actually much, much cheaper now to go electronic. The BA charts for Fiji for instance were $85 each and I would have needed about ten of them. That is only Fiji and doesn't cover anywhere else I have been. I got a set of CMap charts for free from another cruiser that cover the whole world and laptop computers now are so cheap you could have one as back-up. You can download all the charts for the USA off the internet now for free. It's possible to have a back-up battery and I have never had a total electrical failure in many years of cruising....knock on wood. Redundancy can easily be built into an electric system. Don't get me wrong, I always have paper back-up but the paper back-up is on sheets I have printed myself from the electronic charts. That will always get me in port in a worse case scenario. The GPS in the cockpit is a hand held and can run on its own batteries if needed. I really feel that navigating electronically has made my cruising much safer and allowed me to go to places I would have been scared to otherwise. As for working the brain, I wish more people would really learn how to use a GPS properly and REALLY understand it. I have seen far too many people hit reefs for no reason. It's a skill like anything else and GPS assisted groundings are far too common. I know of one boat up on a reef that was trying to find a coral pass and was about 5 miles off. They weren't sure where they were yet they didn't even have the GPS turned on. Go figure. Maybe its natural selection working. My next boat will have a proper desk with pemanently set up computer and printer ...one can dream. I will jump off my soapbox now, Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:53:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:interiors, where do you start? Tom, Paul, The chart plotters available today are very impressive bits of kit and I must say I am tempted. My main concern is if the lights go out on a dark and stormy night. I like a bit of redundancy and backup capability in a system. There is also the fact of excercising the brain a bit more with a paper backed system and also less expensive kit left on the boat to be stolen. But there again computers are getting more and more reliable. Regards, Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14148|14135|2007-08-29 00:32:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: interiors, where do you start?|On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 08:44:07PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, I always have paper back-up but the paper back-up > is on sheets I have printed myself from the electronic charts. I'm a big fan of paper charts, myself - primarily because I make my living working with computers (and before that, electronics of all kinds), and understand them well enough to know just how (un)reliable they are. Don't get me wrong; I love my electronic charts, and use them for all sorts of planning, etc. - but I would never rely on them during a passage. Just my personal preference, and not a comment on anyone else's. However, if I _was_ going to fully rely on electronics, I'd do what Paul describes above. (Oh, and I'd make sure it wasn't on that damned "laser-only" paper - the stuff turns black as soon as it touches water.) > As for working the brain, I wish more people would really learn how > to use a GPS properly and REALLY understand it. I have seen far too > many people hit reefs for no reason. There's a spot in Mayaguana where you can sit and watch boats hit the reef for entertainment. If you use your binocs just before the crash, the skipper will be confidently sitting in the cockpit and staring at his GPS - which has been programmed from Bruce van Sant's "Passages South". A good book otherwise, but it's got several bad waypoints in it - with that one being a real winner. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14149|14149|2007-08-29 13:14:02|thomas lee|Amigos--- Re: interiors, where do you start? /see buehler's study p|Re:Interiors Amigos: Probably worth scanning George Buehler's arrangements; in a word simple. (35' etc) KIS --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14150|14149|2007-08-29 19:07:55|polaris041|Amigos--- Re: interiors, where do you start? /see buehler's study p|For a real treat one could not pass up J.R.Benford. google; benford design group, or his book "Cruising Designs" http://www.tillerbooks.com/Cruising_Designs.php J has the ability to fit it all in there as though mother nature herself designed it. later pol . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee wrote: > > > > > Re:Interiors > > Amigos: > > Probably worth scanning George Buehler's arrangements; in a word > > simple. (35' etc) > > KIS > > > > > --------------------------------- > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14151|14151|2007-08-29 22:07:26|mickeyolaf|Inexpensive Diesel|Princess Auto, a Canadian auto parts company, has 10hp (@3600 rpm) air cooled, 4 stroke, 1" keyed shaft, weight 110lbs, diesel engines for sale for $699 Cdn. My quess is they are Chinese or Indian. Sale ends Sept 28. If you plumbed in a dry exhaust and added a $250 Jabsco 10,000 hour blower to bring in fresh air and exhaust heat from the engine room u would have propulsion for around $1100 bucks.| 14152|14135|2007-08-30 00:21:57|mickeyolaf|Re: interiors, where do you start?|When I designed my interior I bought an architects ruler, divided Brent's 36 hull into 12" sections, and thought to myself where will I spend the most time. For me, my berth, the cockpit, the pilothouse steering station, and the galley in that order. I need 7' to strectch out, a 6' cockpit, 6'5" headroom at the steering station and the same at the galley with space for a fridge, stove, sink and counter. So the berths went in first, followed by the cockpit, then the pilothouse, then the galley. The remainder became the head, storage, etc. The 36 is a big boat and it all fits in. There's room in my pilothouse for two captains chairs and a settee. If you overlap berths ie a 7'quarter berth under the PH settee you save 5.5' which can be used elsewhere. A 7' dinette makes a great double when folded down for occassional guests. 44" is all that's needed for a head shower combo. My galley is 9'long which also allowed a stainless triple sink. Put your table on a slider so the big bellied people can move the table away for more room. Experiment. Some people mock up in with cheap plywood. It's not really necessary cause we all live around furniture and can easily measure up to see what is standard. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting > from one end got me wondering. > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > missing something here? > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > seer > | 14153|14151|2007-08-30 00:28:13|Alex Christie|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Here is what I was musing on tonight about propulsion: My crewman and the dogs (first time testing them out on the boat) and I were taking a short sunset tour of Baynes Sound, just off Fanny Bay and while putt-putting along I wished out loud that in fact I was running silent electric drive. The water was flat calm, no wind, no heavy demand on the propulsion system, and just for that time I wish I had a silent, or well-near silent drive system to glide along silently at the same 2.5 knots we were doing while admiring the shores of Denman Island. If the hull was clean (it ain't yet), surely 8 hp would push us at that speed easily. I wondered if one could put an extra shaft with a little strut and an 8 hp e-Tek motor from Briggs and Stratton (300 bucks). Steam boats used to enjoy that near-silent power. I hear that the Missisippi riverboats are very relaxing to cruise on for that reason. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Inexpensive Diesel Princess Auto, a Canadian auto parts company, has 10hp (@3600 rpm) air cooled, 4 stroke, 1" keyed shaft, weight 110lbs, diesel engines for sale for $699 Cdn. My quess is they are Chinese or Indian. Sale ends Sept 28. If you plumbed in a dry exhaust and added a $250 Jabsco 10,000 hour blower to bring in fresh air and exhaust heat from the engine room u would have propulsion for around $1100 bucks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14154|14154|2007-08-30 05:28:16|Alex Christie|sunset cruise|Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14155|14154|2007-08-30 05:43:09|Gerd|Re: sunset cruise|Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14156|14154|2007-08-30 06:56:06|Alex Christie|Re: sunset cruise|Yes Gerd, I'm much happier! I've found cruising to be extremely therapeutic for my mind/soul. The good feeling starts the moment you step on board and all memories of past traumas seem to lift, or perhaps be displaced by the persistent immensity and connectedness of the ocean. When I get back on land... it all comes back, and I can't wait to row back out to the boat again. Inside my boat there is an aft cabin under flush deck, the most inviting place to sleep ever! I call it "The Admiral's Quarters" and it is a great retreat. Even on our short tour around the bay I had to slip down for a 5 minute nap there :p Now I'm in a pickle because my other boat, the unfinished BS36, has a regular cockpit but now I'm horny for an aft cabin there too! It makes accommodations from stem to stern, probably the equivalent as you would have on some 40 footers. There is nothing more rich than waking up in the morning with the moving reflection of the sun on the water dancing on the ceiling of the aft cabin. It's a toss-up, as to putting one in as you do lose your footwell. So far I have not felt too vulnerable on the raised cockpit aft with no footwell, but will try some offshore jaunts before I give final judgement on that. By the way all, although I have a "new" bs 36, I've found a rental place where I can bring my other boat and finish both it and the second film! I'm just sourcing video equipment now, wondering what format I'll use for a recording medium, and I'll start filming when I've got the hull moved. The landlord of the place I'm moving to is most accommodating, and if all works well there, it might be possible that he'd take the same type of boat there to be finished off, should anyone ever need same in future. $500 per month and overlooking the bay where I have my other boat anchored can't be beat. I now have the great luxury of having a working model to compare to what I'm building, allowing me to experiment and incorporate what I like into the bare hull based on real experience. It's a luxury afforded to few, though you can do the same simply by sailing on another similar boat too, as I have done on Silas Crosby. Having to live on a boat and sailing it more extensively is even more helpful. Last note: the new boat has a steel mast, and I find the boat acts perfectly normal with it, a real rock-steady ride and not tender at all, plenty of stability reserved for a good press of sail (we put all sail we had up there one day as we were sailing (it turns out) with a good crop of mussels when we left Vancouver. "Armchair" comfort is what comes to mind with this boat and mast. I'll more than likely install a steel tube mast in the next hull too unless an aluminum 47 foot mast falls in my lap. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14157|14154|2007-08-30 08:59:41|Aaron Williams|Re: sunset cruise|Alex Maybe if you get a chance would you get so detailed pictures of the mast? Thanks Alex Christie wrote: Yes Gerd, I'm much happier! I've found cruising to be extremely therapeutic for my mind/soul. The good feeling starts the moment you step on board and all memories of past traumas seem to lift, or perhaps be displaced by the persistent immensity and connectedness of the ocean. When I get back on land... it all comes back, and I can't wait to row back out to the boat again. Inside my boat there is an aft cabin under flush deck, the most inviting place to sleep ever! I call it "The Admiral's Quarters" and it is a great retreat. Even on our short tour around the bay I had to slip down for a 5 minute nap there :p Now I'm in a pickle because my other boat, the unfinished BS36, has a regular cockpit but now I'm horny for an aft cabin there too! It makes accommodations from stem to stern, probably the equivalent as you would have on some 40 footers. There is nothing more rich than waking up in the morning with the moving reflection of the sun on the water dancing on the ceiling of the aft cabin. It's a toss-up, as to putting one in as you do lose your footwell. So far I have not felt too vulnerable on the raised cockpit aft with no footwell, but will try some offshore jaunts before I give final judgement on that. By the way all, although I have a "new" bs 36, I've found a rental place where I can bring my other boat and finish both it and the second film! I'm just sourcing video equipment now, wondering what format I'll use for a recording medium, and I'll start filming when I've got the hull moved. The landlord of the place I'm moving to is most accommodating, and if all works well there, it might be possible that he'd take the same type of boat there to be finished off, should anyone ever need same in future. $500 per month and overlooking the bay where I have my other boat anchored can't be beat. I now have the great luxury of having a working model to compare to what I'm building, allowing me to experiment and incorporate what I like into the bare hull based on real experience. It's a luxury afforded to few, though you can do the same simply by sailing on another similar boat too, as I have done on Silas Crosby. Having to live on a boat and sailing it more extensively is even more helpful. Last note: the new boat has a steel mast, and I find the boat acts perfectly normal with it, a real rock-steady ride and not tender at all, plenty of stability reserved for a good press of sail (we put all sail we had up there one day as we were sailing (it turns out) with a good crop of mussels when we left Vancouver. "Armchair" comfort is what comes to mind with this boat and mast. I'll more than likely install a steel tube mast in the next hull too unless an aluminum 47 foot mast falls in my lap. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14158|14154|2007-08-30 13:01:10|Alex Christie|Re: sunset cruise|Aaron, the mast is very scary looking right now and not very photogenic -- the previous owner painted over mill-scale and much of the paint sloughed off! I have to take it off and sandblast it. What part were you interested in seeing? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex Maybe if you get a chance would you get so detailed pictures of the mast? Thanks Alex Christie wrote: Yes Gerd, I'm much happier! I've found cruising to be extremely therapeutic for my mind/soul. The good feeling starts the moment you step on board and all memories of past traumas seem to lift, or perhaps be displaced by the persistent immensity and connectedness of the ocean. When I get back on land... it all comes back, and I can't wait to row back out to the boat again. Inside my boat there is an aft cabin under flush deck, the most inviting place to sleep ever! I call it "The Admiral's Quarters" and it is a great retreat. Even on our short tour around the bay I had to slip down for a 5 minute nap there :p Now I'm in a pickle because my other boat, the unfinished BS36, has a regular cockpit but now I'm horny for an aft cabin there too! It makes accommodations from stem to stern, probably the equivalent as you would have on some 40 footers. There is nothing more rich than waking up in the morning with the moving reflection of the sun on the water dancing on the ceiling of the aft cabin. It's a toss-up, as to putting one in as you do lose your footwell. So far I have not felt too vulnerable on the raised cockpit aft with no footwell, but will try some offshore jaunts before I give final judgement on that. By the way all, although I have a "new" bs 36, I've found a rental place where I can bring my other boat and finish both it and the second film! I'm just sourcing video equipment now, wondering what format I'll use for a recording medium, and I'll start filming when I've got the hull moved. The landlord of the place I'm moving to is most accommodating, and if all works well there, it might be possible that he'd take the same type of boat there to be finished off, should anyone ever need same in future. $500 per month and overlooking the bay where I have my other boat anchored can't be beat. I now have the great luxury of having a working model to compare to what I'm building, allowing me to experiment and incorporate what I like into the bare hull based on real experience. It's a luxury afforded to few, though you can do the same simply by sailing on another similar boat too, as I have done on Silas Crosby. Having to live on a boat and sailing it more extensively is even more helpful. Last note: the new boat has a steel mast, and I find the boat acts perfectly normal with it, a real rock-steady ride and not tender at all, plenty of stability reserved for a good press of sail (we put all sail we had up there one day as we were sailing (it turns out) with a good crop of mussels when we left Vancouver. "Armchair" comfort is what comes to mind with this boat and mast. I'll more than likely install a steel tube mast in the next hull too unless an aluminum 47 foot mast falls in my lap. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14159|14154|2007-08-30 13:23:12|Alex Christie|Re: sunset cruise|Here are two videos from my sunset cruise around Baynes Sound last night. The second film has a brief shot of the peeling paint on the mast, for Aaron :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93jQNQ9-riw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KTeeAtpPw Flickr photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive It just occured to me how ideal it will be having my new apartment right above where I am filming there, I'll be working on my bare hull and yet be able to go sailing on the new boat just steps away. Once I'm settled in, if anyone wishes to come by, see the boat being fitted out, then go for a sail on a sistership, they'd be welcome to do so. I find the possibilities for comparison between finished and unfinished very interesting and informative. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14160|14154|2007-08-30 13:37:39|Wesley Cox|Re: sunset cruise|I would love to come by, even bring a tent and help work in order to gain experience, but you're just too far away... :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Here are two videos from my sunset cruise around Baynes Sound last night. The second film has a brief shot of the peeling paint on the mast, for Aaron :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93jQNQ9-riw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KTeeAtpPw Flickr photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive It just occured to me how ideal it will be having my new apartment right above where I am filming there, I'll be working on my bare hull and yet be able to go sailing on the new boat just steps away. Once I'm settled in, if anyone wishes to come by, see the boat being fitted out, then go for a sail on a sistership, they'd be welcome to do so. I find the possibilities for comparison between finished and unfinished very interesting and informative. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.12/979 - Release Date: 8/29/2007 8:21 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14161|14151|2007-08-30 15:44:23|Ray|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Here is what I was musing on tonight about propulsion: > I wondered if one could put an extra shaft with a little strut and >an 8 hp e-Tek motor from Briggs and Stratton (300 bucks). > Alex - just a thought - is there a need to worry w/a second shaft? Do you have room in the engine compartment to mount the eTek motor to the side of or above the output shaft? Here's what I'm thinking: Mount a pulley to your existing driveshaft, and drive it w/the side/top mounted eTek. This is an off- the-cuff thought that I've not taken the time to analyze, but, it seems feasible on the outset. Ray Kimbro| 14162|14154|2007-08-30 22:44:09|Aaron Williams|Re: sunset cruise|I was thinking about how the sail track was attached. I think the rest is covered with the plans and Brents book. You could send me any pictures direct. but if you dont want to show off Shair's accumlation of rust I'll understand. Aaron Alex Christie wrote: Aaron, the mast is very scary looking right now and not very photogenic -- the previous owner painted over mill-scale and much of the paint sloughed off! I have to take it off and sandblast it. What part were you interested in seeing? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex Maybe if you get a chance would you get so detailed pictures of the mast? Thanks Alex Christie wrote: Yes Gerd, I'm much happier! I've found cruising to be extremely therapeutic for my mind/soul. The good feeling starts the moment you step on board and all memories of past traumas seem to lift, or perhaps be displaced by the persistent immensity and connectedness of the ocean. When I get back on land... it all comes back, and I can't wait to row back out to the boat again. Inside my boat there is an aft cabin under flush deck, the most inviting place to sleep ever! I call it "The Admiral's Quarters" and it is a great retreat. Even on our short tour around the bay I had to slip down for a 5 minute nap there :p Now I'm in a pickle because my other boat, the unfinished BS36, has a regular cockpit but now I'm horny for an aft cabin there too! It makes accommodations from stem to stern, probably the equivalent as you would have on some 40 footers. There is nothing more rich than waking up in the morning with the moving reflection of the sun on the water dancing on the ceiling of the aft cabin. It's a toss-up, as to putting one in as you do lose your footwell. So far I have not felt too vulnerable on the raised cockpit aft with no footwell, but will try some offshore jaunts before I give final judgement on that. By the way all, although I have a "new" bs 36, I've found a rental place where I can bring my other boat and finish both it and the second film! I'm just sourcing video equipment now, wondering what format I'll use for a recording medium, and I'll start filming when I've got the hull moved. The landlord of the place I'm moving to is most accommodating, and if all works well there, it might be possible that he'd take the same type of boat there to be finished off, should anyone ever need same in future. $500 per month and overlooking the bay where I have my other boat anchored can't be beat. I now have the great luxury of having a working model to compare to what I'm building, allowing me to experiment and incorporate what I like into the bare hull based on real experience. It's a luxury afforded to few, though you can do the same simply by sailing on another similar boat too, as I have done on Silas Crosby. Having to live on a boat and sailing it more extensively is even more helpful. Last note: the new boat has a steel mast, and I find the boat acts perfectly normal with it, a real rock-steady ride and not tender at all, plenty of stability reserved for a good press of sail (we put all sail we had up there one day as we were sailing (it turns out) with a good crop of mussels when we left Vancouver. "Armchair" comfort is what comes to mind with this boat and mast. I'll more than likely install a steel tube mast in the next hull too unless an aluminum 47 foot mast falls in my lap. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14163|14163|2007-08-31 00:52:41|Alex Christie|mast track|The sail track looks like two pieces of stainless angle, from what I remember of the crossing. I'll take some pix tomorrow and post, or send direct to you, Aaron. Everyone knows now the wages of sin of not blasting off millscale, so it's not a problem to show it publicly! When that mast is blasted and repainted it'll look fine. I've got lots of lessons on Shair that will directly benefit my other boat being built. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise I was thinking about how the sail track was attached. I think the rest is covered with the plans and Brents book. You could send me any pictures direct. but if you dont want to show off Shair's accumlation of rust I'll understand. Aaron Alex Christie wrote: Aaron, the mast is very scary looking right now and not very photogenic -- the previous owner painted over mill-scale and much of the paint sloughed off! I have to take it off and sandblast it. What part were you interested in seeing? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex Maybe if you get a chance would you get so detailed pictures of the mast? Thanks Alex Christie wrote: Yes Gerd, I'm much happier! I've found cruising to be extremely therapeutic for my mind/soul. The good feeling starts the moment you step on board and all memories of past traumas seem to lift, or perhaps be displaced by the persistent immensity and connectedness of the ocean. When I get back on land... it all comes back, and I can't wait to row back out to the boat again. Inside my boat there is an aft cabin under flush deck, the most inviting place to sleep ever! I call it "The Admiral's Quarters" and it is a great retreat. Even on our short tour around the bay I had to slip down for a 5 minute nap there :p Now I'm in a pickle because my other boat, the unfinished BS36, has a regular cockpit but now I'm horny for an aft cabin there too! It makes accommodations from stem to stern, probably the equivalent as you would have on some 40 footers. There is nothing more rich than waking up in the morning with the moving reflection of the sun on the water dancing on the ceiling of the aft cabin. It's a toss-up, as to putting one in as you do lose your footwell. So far I have not felt too vulnerable on the raised cockpit aft with no footwell, but will try some offshore jaunts before I give final judgement on that. By the way all, although I have a "new" bs 36, I've found a rental place where I can bring my other boat and finish both it and the second film! I'm just sourcing video equipment now, wondering what format I'll use for a recording medium, and I'll start filming when I've got the hull moved. The landlord of the place I'm moving to is most accommodating, and if all works well there, it might be possible that he'd take the same type of boat there to be finished off, should anyone ever need same in future. $500 per month and overlooking the bay where I have my other boat anchored can't be beat. I now have the great luxury of having a working model to compare to what I'm building, allowing me to experiment and incorporate what I like into the bare hull based on real experience. It's a luxury afforded to few, though you can do the same simply by sailing on another similar boat too, as I have done on Silas Crosby. Having to live on a boat and sailing it more extensively is even more helpful. Last note: the new boat has a steel mast, and I find the boat acts perfectly normal with it, a real rock-steady ride and not tender at all, plenty of stability reserved for a good press of sail (we put all sail we had up there one day as we were sailing (it turns out) with a good crop of mussels when we left Vancouver. "Armchair" comfort is what comes to mind with this boat and mast. I'll more than likely install a steel tube mast in the next hull too unless an aluminum 47 foot mast falls in my lap. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sunset cruise Alex - great pictures, especially the very nice panoric views. But the best think about these images is that the skipper seem to be one really happy guy fully enjoying his life... ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/977 - Release Date: 28/08/2007 4:29 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.12/979 - Release Date: 29/08/2007 8:21 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14164|14164|2007-08-31 12:23:18|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|North Port, NY for Labor Day Weekend|Hello All, We are planning on going to North Port, NY for this Labor Day Weekend. Just wondering if anyone is going to be in the area. Would like to say hello. Hope to see you there, Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14165|14074|2007-08-31 16:07:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: OK, Heavy Weather vid for fun and profit|On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 10:59:54AM +0100, Wally Paine wrote: > > One thing one can think about is to go below and > imagine the boat up side down and shaken. What will > not stay put? [laugh] Years ago, while cruising in Puerto Rico, I wrote an article on in-harbor hurricane survival ("A Port in a Storm") for a sailing magazine where I used almost that exact phrase; reading it here brought it to mind. What I wrote at the time was: ----------------------- [...] imagine the boat picked up, turned upside down, and shaken - hard - several times. What will go flying? Secure it! ----------------------- The article is still available at http://okopnik.freeshell.org/articles/luis.txt -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14166|14135|2007-08-31 17:13:28|brentswain38|Re: interiors, where do you start?|One client had a pretty good idea of what he had planed for interior. When the shell was together he mocked it up in cardboard furniture boxes. He was glad he did . Some ideas he had wouldn't have worked out so good ,and seeing it in 3D gave him some great ideas for modifications of his original plan. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Seer > I havnt started the interior of my 26 yet but I'm figuring starting with > births first, need to be long enough to be confortable then minimal galley > and WC then fit in hanging lockers-cabnets with what room is left. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 7:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] interiors, where do you start? > > > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting > > from one end got me wondering. > > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > > missing something here? > > > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length > > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle > > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14167|14151|2007-09-01 00:11:13|seeratlas|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Ray, as long as alex has a tranny that won't self destruct in neutral I don't see any problem with your suggestion. The etek is very compact, and a belt/pulley arrangement that can handle twice its 8 hp is not a big deal to locate either. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Here is what I was musing on tonight about propulsion: > > > I wondered if one could put an extra shaft with a little strut and > >an 8 hp e-Tek motor from Briggs and Stratton (300 bucks). > > > > > Alex - > > just a thought - is there a need to worry w/a second shaft? Do you > have room in the engine compartment to mount the eTek motor to the > side of or above the output shaft? > > Here's what I'm thinking: Mount a pulley to your existing > driveshaft, and drive it w/the side/top mounted eTek. This is an off- > the-cuff thought that I've not taken the time to analyze, but, it > seems feasible on the outset. > > Ray Kimbro > | 14168|14154|2007-09-01 00:17:14|seeratlas|Re: sunset cruise|That is one happy looking puppy...the dog too :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some photos of my sunset tour of the bay last night: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/christiephotoarchive/ > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14169|14151|2007-09-01 03:24:18|Alex Christie|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat-completion site. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14170|14151|2007-09-01 09:03:28|Aaron Williams|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Alex over at the electric boating group they say it takes 750 wats per every 2000lbs of boat to get to hull speed. Alex Christie wrote: Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat-completion site. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14171|14151|2007-09-01 16:28:28|mauro gonzaga|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|The engine has its curve Torque(produced)/Revs and the propeller has its curve Torque(absorbed)/Revs . The engine and the propeller will turn at the same revs where the two curves meet. Mauro Aaron Williams wrote: Alex over at the electric boating group they say it takes 750 wats per every 2000lbs of boat to get to hull speed. Alex Christie wrote: Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat-completion site. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14172|14151|2007-09-03 11:49:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|1 hp / ton (750 watts / 2000 lbs) will give you hull speed in calm waters with no wind, with a clean hull and prop. 2 or 3 hp / ton gives you a safety reserve, and can be a life saver while cruising. Anything more that 5 hp / ton in a displacement hull is likely wasted. 20 hp/ ton is about the minimum I've found required to plane, given the right hull shape. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mauro gonzaga Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 1:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel The engine has its curve Torque(produced)/Revs and the propeller has its curve Torque(absorbed)/Revs . The engine and the propeller will turn at the same revs where the two curves meet. Mauro Aaron Williams com> wrote: Alex over at the electric boating group they say it takes 750 wats per every 2000lbs of boat to get to hull speed. Alex Christie ca> wrote: Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat-completion site. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14173|14151|2007-09-04 14:58:58|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Use a timing belt drive to give you any needed reduction. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. > > Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat- completion site. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14174|14151|2007-09-04 16:47:41|Ray|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have some incredible torque available, mind you. > > Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat-completion site. > > Alex Congrats on the Big Day - w/r/t the eTek turning the prop - given proper pulley sizes I don't think it's a problem. After all - won't the eTek turn a few K-rpm faster than the diesel?| 14175|14175|2007-09-04 17:43:19|troller10|Alex's Hull|I have not been reading every single post since many posts contain lots of past postings, but... Did Alex ever sell his unfinished Hull. I know that he did buy a finished boat and is now sailing around enjoying it. Congrats Alex. I've been interested in the Swain Design for a long time and drove up to Comax a couple of times looking at boats. I realize that I do not have the time to start from scratch on a folded steel boat and am now interested in having a hull constructed. Would like a twin keel, at least 38 feet long on deck and the cabin needs at least 6'3" on head room in it, (somewhere in side so I can standup). It has been a long time since I was on the water, but I am looking to finish a hull out and get back to sea before I get too beatup to enjoy it. Any leads any one? Thanks, Brien Hamilton| 14176|14176|2007-09-04 19:37:53|dbourg2002|West Coast visit next two weeks|My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of weeks and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished and unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay but will be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we could see a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as this is the size of the boats we are interested in. Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. Thanks, Don B| 14177|14151|2007-09-04 20:20:51|David A. Frantz|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Timing belts are excellent, but one does need to do the up front engineering to size it right for the torque and probably derate for marine duty. Dave brentswain38 wrote: > > Use a timing belt drive to give you any needed reduction. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have > some incredible torque available, mind you. > > > > Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no > turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so > while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat- > completion site. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 14178|14151|2007-09-04 20:54:43|seeratlas|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Alex, one of the characteristics of the Etek pancake type motor is that you essentially have nearly 100 percent torgue available, whether at 50 or 1000 rpm, that will not be a problem. As brent says, lots of belts are available that will do the job. I'm looking at using a cogged one simlar to what you see on harley davidsons, something automotive or diesel truckish that has wide applicability will be far easier to find and accordingly less expensive to maintain. Rig your etek so you can reverse polarity and assuming your tranny in neutral can handle it, you can manuever far better in tight quarters than otherwise and without all the bang/slam of shifting the tranny from forward to reverse under diesel power. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Use a timing belt drive to give you any needed reduction. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Would the e-Tek be able to turn the big prop though? It should have > some incredible torque available, mind you. > > > > Btw, today's the Big Day, officially giving up house for boat, no > turning back! I will not be online again for another week or so > while an apartment is set up at the shop for me at the new boat- > completion site. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:10 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Inexpensive Diesel > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14179|14179|2007-09-05 01:48:48|SHANE ROTHWELL|Sunset Cruise|Alex wrote: It just occured to me how ideal it will be having my new apartment right above where I am filming there, I'll be working on my bare hull and yet be able to go sailing on the new boat just steps away. Once I'm settled in, if anyone wishes to come by, see the boat being fitted out, then go for a sail on a sistership, they'd be welcome to do so. I find the possibilities for comparison between finished and unfinished very interesting and informative. Alex Hey Alex, Good on you lad! looks very much like you landed on your feet! Someone mentioned that they would love to come bye, bring a tent & give you a hand but they are too far away...... Well I'm not. It won't be until sometime next month probably when the wether is right shitty but who cares as there's lots of puff for checking out this "armchair sailing" you mentioned. and As long as I can get a hot shower & a chilly wobbler at the end of the day I'm up for working on the boat in virtually any whether. I'm in QB & you have my #. Where are you set up? Comox? If so it's only 40 minutes away. Cheers, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14180|14176|2007-09-05 02:06:19|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: West Coast visit next two weeks|Yo can see both my completed boat (which I'm working on) and the bare hull if you like. The bare hull is in Courtenay, the finished boat is in Fanny Bay, on the old Island Highway. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: dbourg2002 Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: [origamiboats] West Coast visit next two weeks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of > weeks > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished > and > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay > but will > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we > could see > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as > this is > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Don B > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14181|14179|2007-09-05 02:06:27|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Sunset Cruise|The boat will be located above the beached ship Brico (big red cable laying ship) in Fanny Bay. Her sister ship is located below, at the docks or at anchor until the winter winds come.  Yes, Shane, come and grind welds :p Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:52 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Sunset Cruise To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Alex wrote: > > It just occured to me how ideal it will be having my > new apartment right above where I am filming there, > I'll be working on my bare hull and yet be able to go > sailing on the new boat just steps away. Once I'm > settled in, if anyone wishes to come by, see the boat > being fitted out, then go for a sail on a sistership, > they'd be welcome to do so. I find the possibilities > for comparison between finished and unfinished very > interesting and informative. > > Alex > > > Hey Alex, > > Good on you lad! looks very much like you landed on > your feet! > > Someone mentioned that they would love to come bye, > bring a tent & give you a hand but they are too far > away...... Well I'm not. > > It won't be until sometime next month probably when > the wether is right shitty but who cares as there's > lots of puff for checking out this "armchair sailing" > you mentioned. and As long as I can get a hot shower & > a chilly wobbler at the end of the day I'm up for > working on the boat in virtually any whether. > > I'm in QB & you have my #. Where are you set up? > Comox? If so it's only 40 minutes away. > > Cheers, > Shane > > >       Be smarter than spam. See how > smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All- > new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14182|14182|2007-09-05 02:08:27|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Chart table|The drop down box from the deck head is wha they do on the Ozzie prawn boats. hinged fwd with a slide bolt either side to hold it up. but keep it shallow for head room. chart storage under the bunks for those not in use. the one I saw had a light set up and a bum sling made out of 4" truck tie down strap = comfey, that clipped onto the galley counter & the furniture on the other side- athwart ships as the chart box was mounted fore & aft. that way you could stand & support yourself by leaning back against the bum strap & not get knocked off your feet or if it was calm you could use a second hook to shorten the bum strap & be a bit higher & sit there quite comfortably to work. Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 14183|14151|2007-09-05 07:34:47|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Belt drive is very simple and attractive, but how do you reverse, if using diesel rather than electric? Two stroke engines in golf carts are merely restarted in the opposite rotation. Can you do this with a 4 stroke air cooled single cylinder diesel? --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14184|14151|2007-09-05 08:48:51|Ray|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Belt drive is very simple and attractive, but how do you reverse, if using diesel rather than electric? Two stroke engines in golf carts are merely restarted in the opposite rotation. Can you do this with a 4 stroke air cooled single cylinder diesel? > Not certain I understand your question - the belt drive was to apply power from an "electric auxiliary motor" to the existing prop shaft - w/the application point being behind the transmission. SO - if under diesel power, you'd use the tranny to reverse, if under electric power (tranny in neutral) you could get reverse by reversing the polarity/rotation of the electric motor. If you wanted to engineer another "transmission" - one could also use a series of pulleys/jackshafts to reverse the prop-shaft rotation.| 14185|14185|2007-09-05 13:17:56|Carl Anderson|adhesive bonded windows|I'm getting rid of some of my leftover tools. For anyone who is doing adhesive bonded windows: I have a "foil pack" (600ml) caulking gun for sale if anyone is interested. It has two unused nozzles. Carl| 14186|14175|2007-09-05 17:22:51|brentswain38|Re: Alex's Hull|It only takes a couple of weeks to put a shell together.I could do that this winter . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > I have not been reading every single post since many posts contain > lots of past postings, but... > > > Did Alex ever sell his unfinished Hull. I know that he did buy a > finished boat and is now sailing around enjoying it. Congrats Alex. > > I've been interested in the Swain Design for a long time and drove up > to Comax a couple of times looking at boats. > > I realize that I do not have the time to start from scratch on a > folded steel boat and am now interested in having a hull constructed. > > Would like a twin keel, at least 38 feet long on deck and the cabin > needs at least 6'3" on head room in it, (somewhere in side so I can > standup). > > It has been a long time since I was on the water, but I am looking to > finish a hull out and get back to sea before I get too beatup to enjoy > it. > > Any leads any one? > > Thanks, > > Brien Hamilton > | 14187|14187|2007-09-05 17:24:22|brentswain38|Airhead improvements|I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no unmixed parts . It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to find out how long the bottle lasts . When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break things up and mix better. Brent| 14188|14176|2007-09-05 17:27:08|brentswain38|Re: West Coast visit next two weeks|Call Evan Shaler when you get to Nanaimo. His number is in the phone book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of them. Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are at the govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be there.You can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything less than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on boundary Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east of Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of weeks > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished and > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay but will > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we could see > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as this is > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Don B > | 14189|14151|2007-09-05 17:32:45|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|If I turn the air supply off for my diesel , then let the air in before it has fully stopped , it will start again in reverse. The intake becomes the exhuast and the exhuast becomes the intake.Scared the shit out of me when it happened with the hand start. Big ships do this al the time. For some of them it's the only reverse they have. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR > wrote: > > > > Belt drive is very simple and attractive, but how do you reverse, if > using diesel rather than electric? Two stroke engines in golf carts > are merely restarted in the opposite rotation. Can you do this with a > 4 stroke air cooled single cylinder diesel? > > > > Not certain I understand your question - the belt drive was to apply > power from an "electric auxiliary motor" to the existing prop shaft - > w/the application point being behind the transmission. SO - if under > diesel power, you'd use the tranny to reverse, if under electric power > (tranny in neutral) you could get reverse by reversing the > polarity/rotation of the electric motor. > > If you wanted to engineer another "transmission" - one could also use > a series of pulleys/jackshafts to reverse the prop-shaft rotation. > | 14190|14176|2007-09-05 17:56:16|Alex Christie|Mishar (40 footer) update|Just to correct info on Mishar the centre cockpit 40 footer, I saw her a few weeks ago on the hard at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond on Graybar Road. New ownership, and they have stripped her bare to refinish. She has been painted already and looks great. The new owner is very friendly and has a crew working on it full time to get ready for a spring re-launch I think. Alex brentswain38 wrote: Call Evan Shaler when you get to Nanaimo. His number is in the phone book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of them. Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are at the govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be there.You can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything less than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on boundary Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east of Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of weeks > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished and > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay but will > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we could see > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as this is > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Don B > --------------------------------- Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14191|14191|2007-09-05 21:25:16|James Pronk|Loads of Origami!|Wow! It sounds like people have been busy building origami boats on the west coast. Are there many that have been built on the east coast? Would I have to book a trip out to BC to see them? There could be worse things to do with one weeks holidays| 14192|14176|2007-09-05 22:38:27|Gordon Schnell|Re: Mishar (40 footer) update|I don't believe Mishar is a center cockpit, unless she has been modified by the new owner. I also was not aware Mike had sold her. I'll give him a call. Gord Alex Christie wrote: > > Just to correct info on Mishar the centre cockpit 40 footer, I saw her > a few weeks ago on the hard at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond on > Graybar Road. New ownership, and they have stripped her bare to > refinish. She has been painted already and looks great. The new owner > is very friendly and has a crew working on it full time to get ready > for a spring re-launch I think. > > Alex > > brentswain38 > wrote: Call Evan Shaler when you > get to Nanaimo. His number is in the phone > book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of them. > Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are at the > govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be there.You > can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything less > than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. > The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on boundary > Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east of > Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "dbourg2002" wrote: > > > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of > weeks > > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished and > > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay but > will > > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we could > see > > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as this > is > > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don B > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on > Yahoo! TV. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14193|14176|2007-09-05 23:54:53|karina marshall|Re: West Coast visit next two weeks|Thanks for the origami boat location information. We will wander down to the Cowichan Bay to check out that boat. I,m not sure about Nanimo as we might just be short on time. We will be at Comox on Saturday afternoon to evening so I hope to see some of the boats then. Thanks, Don B ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: West Coast visit next two weeks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Call Evan Shaler when you get to Nanaimo. His number is in the > phone > book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of > them. > Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are > at the > govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be > there.You > can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything > less > than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. > The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on > boundary > Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east > of > Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" > wrote: > > > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple > of > weeks > > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished > and > > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay > but > will > > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we > could > see > > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as > this > is > > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don B > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14194|14151|2007-09-06 06:49:46|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|Big ship diesels are two stroke engines, so maybe simply reversing rotation of the engine is practical for them, but then most of their maneuvering is done with tugboats. As Brent's experience shows, that would not be practical for a four stroke engine, which was my question. Thanks. --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14195|14179|2007-09-06 10:55:43|rockrothwell|Sunset Cruise|-Your on! will contact you closer to the time. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Alex wrote: > > It just occured to me how ideal it will be having my > new apartment right above where I am filming there, > I'll be working on my bare hull and yet be able to go > sailing on the new boat just steps away. Once I'm > settled in, if anyone wishes to come by, see the boat > being fitted out, then go for a sail on a sistership, > they'd be welcome to do so. I find the possibilities > for comparison between finished and unfinished very > interesting and informative. > > Alex > > > Hey Alex, > > Good on you lad! looks very much like you landed on > your feet! > > Someone mentioned that they would love to come bye, > bring a tent & give you a hand but they are too far > away...... Well I'm not. > > It won't be until sometime next month probably when > the wether is right shitty but who cares as there's > lots of puff for checking out this "armchair sailing" > you mentioned. and As long as I can get a hot shower & > a chilly wobbler at the end of the day I'm up for > working on the boat in virtually any whether. > > I'm in QB & you have my #. Where are you set up? > Comox? If so it's only 40 minutes away. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 14196|14187|2007-09-06 11:34:53|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Airhead improvements|Hi Brent, Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering a afixing an automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to collect liquids - both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also contemplated running a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when its cold. Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected directly to crank on the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it together? Cheers Paul > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > unmixed parts . > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > find out how long the bottle lasts . > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > things up and mix better. > Brent > > | 14197|14176|2007-09-06 20:37:55|Alex Christie|Re: Mishar (40 footer) update|maybe not a true centre cockpit, but has aft cabin, I think you are right. Someone called Matthias is the new owner. Alex Gordon Schnell wrote: I don't believe Mishar is a center cockpit, unless she has been modified by the new owner. I also was not aware Mike had sold her. I'll give him a call. Gord Alex Christie wrote: > > Just to correct info on Mishar the centre cockpit 40 footer, I saw her > a few weeks ago on the hard at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond on > Graybar Road. New ownership, and they have stripped her bare to > refinish. She has been painted already and looks great. The new owner > is very friendly and has a crew working on it full time to get ready > for a spring re-launch I think. > > Alex > > brentswain38 > wrote: Call Evan Shaler when you > get to Nanaimo. His number is in the phone > book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of them. > Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are at the > govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be there.You > can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything less > than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. > The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on boundary > Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east of > Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "dbourg2002" wrote: > > > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple of > weeks > > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished and > > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay but > will > > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we could > see > > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as this > is > > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don B > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on > Yahoo! TV. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14198|14176|2007-09-06 20:39:57|Alex Christie|Re: West Coast visit next two weeks|There are two swain boats at Fisherman's wharf in Victoria, one is for sale but very very clean and sweet looking (no pilot house). Ocean boy, and another one. Nice vessels, both. Alex I have the phone number for one for sale, btw, can pass on. karina marshall wrote: Thanks for the origami boat location information. We will wander down to the Cowichan Bay to check out that boat. I,m not sure about Nanimo as we might just be short on time. We will be at Comox on Saturday afternoon to evening so I hope to see some of the boats then. Thanks, Don B ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: West Coast visit next two weeks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Call Evan Shaler when you get to Nanaimo. His number is in the > phone > book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of > them. > Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are > at the > govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be > there.You > can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything > less > than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. > The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on > boundary > Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just east > of > Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" > wrote: > > > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next couple > of > weeks > > and were wondering where we would be able to see some finished > and > > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan Bay > but > will > > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if we > could > see > > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well as > this > is > > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don B > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14199|14187|2007-09-06 20:55:53|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|Brent, The purpose of the mixing is actually aeration because you are working with Aerobic bacteria which produce CO2 and Nitrogen so there is no smell. If the compost sits without being turned over the anaerobic bacteria take over, producing methane and hydrogen sulfide which smells really bad. So the air head would work much better if agitated frequently. I was thinking there is an easy way to do this. Weld a nut on one side of your agitator. Use a hardened 440 stainless shoulder bolt (McMaster Carr 90298A632 $4.31) screwed into the nut as the shaft on one side. Buy a drawn cup roller cam clutch (Torrington RC-061008 $5.20 or similar) and have a simple round housing made to press it into. Weld an off center weight onto the roller cam clutch housing. Press the clutch into the housing such that it grips the shoulder bolt in the clockwise direction, tightening the thread. Every time your boat rocks the clutch will turn the agitator through however many degrees the boat rocks and it will keep turning in the same direction all the time. This should operate with virtually total silence. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Airhead improvements I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no unmixed parts . It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to find out how long the bottle lasts . When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break things up and mix better. Brent | 14200|14187|2007-09-06 20:56:52|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|You must separate the liquids out. The process of composting uses aerobic bacteria. If the compost is wet you get no oxygen and the anaerobic bacteria take over and you get terrible smells. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Airhead improvements > Hi Brent, > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering a > afixing an > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to collect > liquids - > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also contemplated > running > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when its > cold. > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected directly to > crank on > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it together? > > Cheers > > Paul > > >> I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the >> mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle >> at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not >> in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a >> fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >> unmixed parts . >> It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for >> the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it >> almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to >> find out how long the bottle lasts . >> When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square >> wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >> things up and mix better. >> Brent >> >> > > > | 14201|14176|2007-09-06 22:04:34|ALEX CHRISTIE|Swain sailboat for sale|Silver Moon is the name of the Swain 36 without pilot house for sale. The phone number is (250) 888-0600 for those interested. I have pics, but will have to upload from another cibercafe another time, probably this weekend. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie Date: Thursday, September 6, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: West Coast visit next two weeks To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > There are two swain boats at Fisherman's wharf in Victoria, one > is for sale but very very clean and sweet looking (no pilot > house). Ocean boy, and another one. Nice vessels, both. >    >   Alex >    >   I have the phone number for one for sale, btw, can pass on. >    >   > > karina marshall wrote: >           Thanks > for the origami boat location information. We will wander down > to the Cowichan Bay to check out that boat. I,m not sure about > Nanimo as we might just be short on time. We will be at Comox on > Saturday afternoon to evening so I hope to see some of the boats > then. > > Thanks, > > Don B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Wednesday, September 5, 2007 4:27 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: West Coast visit next two weeks > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Call Evan Shaler when you get to Nanaimo. His number is in the > > phone > > book and he knows where the boats there are. He built most of > > them. > > Shinola is in Cowichan Bay.Doug and Judy on the moon Raven are > > at the > > govt dock in comox. Judy runs the Comox Library .I may be > > there.You > > can walk out to Karl's 36 just west of the Condos at anything > > less > > than a 6 ft tide, or mine if I'm there. > > The only 40's are in the lower mainland, Gord's on land on > > boundary > > Road in Queensborough and Mishar at the Co-op marina, just > east > > of > > Granville island in False Creek, Vancouver. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" > > wrote: > > > > > > My wife and I will be on Vancouver Island for the next > couple > > of > > weeks > > > and were wondering where we would be able to see some > finished > > and > > > unfinished origami boats. We will be based around Cowichan > Bay > > but > > will > > > be driving to and from Comox as well. It would be great if > we > > could > > see > > > a BS 36' and 40' to see what the size difference is as well > as > > this > > is > > > the size of the boats we are interested in. > > > > > > Any help you can give two prairie gringos would be appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Don B > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >                          > >        > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives > answers, not web links. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14202|14187|2007-09-07 14:22:17|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do the trick. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > The purpose of the mixing is actually aeration because you are working with > Aerobic bacteria which produce CO2 and Nitrogen so there is no smell. If > the compost sits without being turned over the anaerobic bacteria take over, > producing methane and hydrogen sulfide which smells really bad. So the air > head would work much better if agitated frequently. > > I was thinking there is an easy way to do this. Weld a nut on one side of > your agitator. Use a hardened 440 stainless shoulder bolt (McMaster Carr > 90298A632 $4.31) screwed into the nut as the shaft on one side. Buy a drawn > cup roller cam clutch (Torrington RC-061008 $5.20 or similar) and have a > simple round housing made to press it into. Weld an off center weight onto > the roller cam clutch housing. Press the clutch into the housing such that > it grips the shoulder bolt in the clockwise direction, tightening the > thread. Every time your boat rocks the clutch will turn the agitator > through however many degrees the boat rocks and it will keep turning in the > same direction all the time. This should operate with virtually total > silence. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:18 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Airhead improvements > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > unmixed parts . > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > find out how long the bottle lasts . > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > things up and mix better. > Brent > | 14203|14187|2007-09-07 14:23:43|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|My airhead type bowl completely separates the liquids. Dumping dried stuff sure beats dumping wet sewage ( porta pottie style) . Some hardened on the mixer like concrete . It sure shows how much of normal sewage is liquid. I dump the 4 litre container of liquid every three days. The solids can be dumped very three weeks or more. The farmers sure screwed up a good thing when they began adding water to manure, creating huge waste management and political management problems in the proccess. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > You must separate the liquids out. The process of composting uses aerobic > bacteria. If the compost is wet you get no oxygen and the anaerobic > bacteria take over and you get terrible smells. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Airhead improvements > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering a > > afixing an > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to collect > > liquids - > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also contemplated > > running > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when its > > cold. > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected directly to > > crank on > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it together? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > >> I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > >> mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > >> at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > >> in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > >> fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > >> unmixed parts . > >> It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > >> the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > >> almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > >> find out how long the bottle lasts . > >> When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > >> wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > >> things up and mix better. > >> Brent > >> > >> > > > > > > > | 14204|14151|2007-09-07 14:27:30|brentswain38|Re: Inexpensive Diesel|I was refering to belt drive for electric motors , which are easily reversed by reversing polarity. My first two boats had no reverse. I just cruised accordingly , with a good spring line spliced in permanently amidships for quick use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > Belt drive is very simple and attractive, but how do you reverse, if using diesel rather than electric? Two stroke engines in golf carts are merely restarted in the opposite rotation. Can you do this with a 4 stroke air cooled single cylinder diesel? > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14205|14187|2007-09-07 14:34:09|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it warms, if and when they are needed. When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering a afixing an > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to collect liquids - > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also contemplated running > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when its cold. > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected directly to crank on > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it together? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > unmixed parts . > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > things up and mix better. > > Brent > > > > > | 14206|14187|2007-09-07 18:39:42|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. Both liquids and solids need to be treated. PATHOGENS IN URINE Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: Bacteria Disease Salmonella typhi Typhoid Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever Leptospira Leptospirosis Yersinia Yersiniosis Escherichia coli Diarrhea Worms Disease Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. Greg ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it warms, if and when they are needed. When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , paulcotter@... wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering a afixing an > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to collect liquids - > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also contemplated running > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when its cold. > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected directly to crank on > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it together? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > unmixed parts . > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > things up and mix better. > > Brent > > > > > | 14207|14187|2007-09-07 19:52:14|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Airhead improvements|Composting is a viable, safe, and effective way to deal with waste whether on land or sea. In fact, composting is treatment. Further, it can simplify plumbing and other hardware on a boat if done correctly. > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , paulcotter@... wrote: >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an >> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - >> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running >> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. >> >> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on >> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the >> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle >> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not >> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a >> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >> > unmixed parts . >> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for >> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it >> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to >> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square >> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >> > things up and mix better. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > > > > > > | 14208|14208|2007-09-08 00:08:32|origamiboats|cover photo|I just saw the floating example of what my 36 footer should look like, in Victoria. It's called "Ocean Boy", and very nicely built. The west coast is truly a haven for Swain hulls, that's for sure! Heading north to get my boat hull moved to new location and get back to work on 'er! If any video specialists can recommend a good hard-drive or flash-drive camcorder, please save me the effort and give me your reviews. My old tape-casette camcorder is living in the caribbean police station one year later, so must replace. Alex| 14209|14187|2007-09-08 12:49:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|It is hard to see how a compact man-made device could achieve this without a lot of added energy in some form. The specific heat of water is one problem. It takes a lot of energy to heat water sufficient to sterilize the pathogens. Other problems include the control of odors and new waste contaminating the compost in progress. If such a design exists, it would revolutionize the marine and RV industry, as well as waste treatment worldwide. Water born disease accounts for something like 50% of all hospital admissions worldwide. Greg "The use of night soil [raw human fecal material and urine] as fertilizer is not without its health hazards. Hepatitis B is prevalent in Dacaiyuan [China], as it is in the rest of China. Some effort is being made to chemically treat [humanure] or at least to mix it with other ingredients before it is applied to the fields. But chemicals are expensive, and old ways die hard. Night soil is one reason why urban Chinese are so scrupulous about peeling fruit, and why raw vegetables are not part of the diet. Negative features aside, one has only to look at satellite photos of the green belt that surrounds China's cities to understand the value of night soil." Jervis, N. "Waste Not, Want Not". Natural History. May, 1990 (p.73). _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paulcotter@... Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 4:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Composting is a viable, safe, and effective way to deal with waste whether on land or sea. In fact, composting is treatment. Further, it can simplify plumbing and other hardware on a boat if done correctly. > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > , paulcotter@... wrote: >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an >> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - >> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running >> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. >> >> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on >> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the >> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle >> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not >> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a >> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >> > unmixed parts . >> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for >> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it >> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to >> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square >> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >> > things up and mix better. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14210|14210|2007-09-08 14:47:13|Alex|BS 36 footers in Victoria|I've posted photos of two 36 footers I saw in Victoria this last week, in a photo album, "A Misc Swain Hull File". Alex| 14211|14211|2007-09-08 22:56:03|renrut5|Origami Boat Listing|New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified?| 14212|14211|2007-09-08 23:09:29|polaris041|Re: Origami Boat Listing|Thanks for that link, but do you realise it could be shortened to http://tinyurl.com/ypwpsv By using a tool at tinyurl.com helps long links like that getting broken. later -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp? currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats=1 766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc% 3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid% 3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom% 3D126%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom% 3D126%26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim% 3Dquick%26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252% 253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > | 14213|14211|2007-09-08 23:35:16|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Origami Boat Listing|wow beautiful boat inside! Something to inspire to. The hull lines look normal, though the transom looks kind of more pinched in shape than normal. Most BS 36 have all-inboard rigs, no bowsprits. The rest of the hull looks normal, from what I can see. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: renrut5 Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet%c2%a4cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14214|14211|2007-09-08 23:37:57|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Origami Boat Listing|I see what you mean about the chine. It looks like they pulled the boat together, probably welded supports inside to keep the hull in shape, then replaced the hard chine with radiused pieces. I doubt there was any appreciable difference in over-all speed, but it looks purdy out of the water. Dolphins might admire that round chine too, which is important :p Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: renrut5 Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet%c2%a4cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14215|14211|2007-09-09 01:36:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami Boat Listing|Everything looks brand new. Insurance rebuild after sinking? Hard (impossible) to build something anywhere near equivalent for 68K, even if you throw in 3 years of free labor. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 8:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing wow beautiful boat inside! Something to inspire to. The hull lines look normal, though the transom looks kind of more pinched in shape than normal. Most BS 36 have all-inboard rigs, no bowsprits. The rest of the hull looks normal, from what I can see. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: renrut5 com> Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtwor ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id =1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResult s.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26 hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D12 6%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLen gth%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043% 26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14216|14211|2007-09-09 10:10:35|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing|Alex (or may be Brent?), the boat sure looks exceptional on the pictures. Does anyone know anything about the mentioned sinking (or did I get that wrong)? What would be the potential problems to look out for if the hull has been submerged and then refitted? With the forestay on a bowsprit this is a modification to the normal BS design? Is that why they mention in the sales prospect that the keel has been modified (moved?)? Otherwise, I would assume the sail balance would get wrong and she would tend to fall off the wind rather than go up in the wind in a gust (not what you want). I would appreciate your view on this based on experience with the normal sail layout for the 36Â’ BS. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing I see what you mean about the chine. It looks like they pulled the boat together, probably welded supports inside to keep the hull in shape, then replaced the hard chine with radiused pieces. I doubt there was any appreciable difference in over-all speed, but it looks purdy out of the water. Dolphins might admire that round chine too, which is important :p Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: renrut5 com> Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtwor ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id =1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResult s.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26 hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D12 6%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLen gth%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043% 26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14217|14187|2007-09-09 12:59:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|I think you are missing a couple of important things. Composting is just using bacteria to break the waste down. As time goes on the bacteria eat all the waste, higher level life forms (ciliates, rotifers, etc.) eat the bacteria and everything converts to nonvolatiles, solids with no energy content to support life. Human pathogens get eaten in this process because the conditions for their growth is all wrong. so that the composted material will have very little hazard. Composted material should be dumped on land where the process continues with plants using the material over again. The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. However a small dose of chlorine will kill them dead, before you dump it. The reason dumping raw sewage is bad is not because of pathogens. It is because it is a huge food source for all kinds of organisms all of which rapidly consume all the available oxygen, needed by fish, plants etc. By the way, I am currently employed building high tech waste treatment systems, using ultrafilters and RO systems. Everything from PCB contaminated runoff from industrial landfills, to small residential community waste water. I'm still learning the biological processes, I've got a real nice microscope and an eyepiece camera if you'd like to see what we are talking about. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE > Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of > a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , paulcotter@... wrote: >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an >> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - >> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running >> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. >> >> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on >> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the >> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle >> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not >> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a >> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >> > unmixed parts . >> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for >> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it >> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to >> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square >> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >> > things up and mix better. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > > > > > > | 14218|14187|2007-09-09 15:33:51|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Airhead improvements|Well put Gary Paul > I think you are missing a couple of important things. Composting is just > using bacteria to break the waste down. As time goes on the bacteria eat > all the waste, higher level life forms (ciliates, rotifers, etc.) eat the > bacteria and everything converts to nonvolatiles, solids with no energy > content to support life. Human pathogens get eaten in this process because > the conditions for their growth is all wrong. so that the composted material > will have very little hazard. Composted material should be dumped on land > where the process continues with plants using the material over again. > > The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. However a small > dose of chlorine will kill them dead, before you dump it. The reason > dumping raw sewage is bad is not because of pathogens. It is because it is > a huge food source for all kinds of organisms all of which rapidly consume > all the available oxygen, needed by fish, plants etc. > > By the way, I am currently employed building high tech waste treatment > systems, using ultrafilters and RO systems. Everything from PCB > contaminated runoff from industrial landfills, to small residential > community waste water. I'm still learning the biological processes, I've > got a real nice microscope and an eyepiece camera if you'd like to see what > we are talking about. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:33 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > >> An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE >> Asia. >> Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. >> >> If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not >> exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my >> experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you >> can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. >> >> On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to >> kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you >> dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. >> >> Both liquids and solids need to be treated. >> >> PATHOGENS IN URINE >> >> Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 >> bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of >> a >> single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected >> individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: >> >> Bacteria Disease >> Salmonella typhi Typhoid >> Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever >> Leptospira Leptospirosis >> Yersinia Yersiniosis >> Escherichia coli Diarrhea >> >> Worms Disease >> Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis >> >> Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. >> (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. >> >> Greg >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> On >> Behalf Of brentswain38 >> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> >> >> 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. >> If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why >> worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it >> warms, if and when they are needed. >> When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> , paulcotter@... wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brent, >>> >>> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering >> a afixing an >>> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to >> collect liquids - >>> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also >> contemplated running >>> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when >> its cold. >>> >>> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected >> directly to crank on >>> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it >> together? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I >> changed the >>> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the >> handle >>> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when >> not >>> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to >> put a >>> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >>> > unmixed parts . >>> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole >> for >>> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in >> it ,and it >>> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now >> to >>> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >>> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch >> square >>> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >>> > things up and mix better. >>> > Brent >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > | 14219|14187|2007-09-09 17:18:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Airhead improvements|Hi Brent, Do you mix anything containing carbon such as sawdust, chopped straw, shredded paper, etc in the composter? It is important to get the carbon/nitrogen ratio fairly correct to get good composting. I have seen wooden pallets (carbon) and chicken feathers (nitrogen) composted after being broken into bits. It was at a commercial operation near Boston UK and although it seemed an unlikely mix, it worked. Do you have two air access points, one inlet and one outlet? I should think that you would need a through flow of air to get sufficient aeration, perhaps even a fan with carbon filters to stop the smell. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some > smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. > Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also > smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. > Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do > the trick. > Brent | 14220|14187|2007-09-10 06:28:06|sae140|Re: Airhead improvements|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. Only if someone is carrying a disease. Unlike the lower alimentary tract which is a-wash with bacteria both nasty and beneficial, the urinary tract should be sterile in healthy folk - so the urine should also be free of any 'nasties' - unless of course someone has a urinary infection: in which case, best see a doctor eh ? The longer the urethra, the less chance of any unfriendly organisms finding a 'home' to breed from. So - "bad luck", girls .... Colin| 14221|14187|2007-09-10 13:40:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|Microorganisms are very good at surviving hostile environments, awaiting a suitable food supply. Cysts for example allow them to survive cold composting and chlorine. These cysts pass out of the host and remain dormant, awaiting ingestion by a new host. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paulcotter@... Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:34 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Well put Gary Paul > I think you are missing a couple of important things. Composting is just > using bacteria to break the waste down. As time goes on the bacteria eat > all the waste, higher level life forms (ciliates, rotifers, etc.) eat the > bacteria and everything converts to nonvolatiles, solids with no energy > content to support life. Human pathogens get eaten in this process because > the conditions for their growth is all wrong. so that the composted material > will have very little hazard. Composted material should be dumped on land > where the process continues with plants using the material over again. > > The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. However a small > dose of chlorine will kill them dead, before you dump it. The reason > dumping raw sewage is bad is not because of pathogens. It is because it is > a huge food source for all kinds of organisms all of which rapidly consume > all the available oxygen, needed by fish, plants etc. > > By the way, I am currently employed building high tech waste treatment > systems, using ultrafilters and RO systems. Everything from PCB > contaminated runoff from industrial landfills, to small residential > community waste water. I'm still learning the biological processes, I've > got a real nice microscope and an eyepiece camera if you'd like to see what > we are talking about. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: com> > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:33 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > >> An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE >> Asia. >> Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. >> >> If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not >> exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my >> experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you >> can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. >> >> On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to >> kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you >> dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. >> >> Both liquids and solids need to be treated. >> >> PATHOGENS IN URINE >> >> Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 >> bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of >> a >> single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected >> individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: >> >> Bacteria Disease >> Salmonella typhi Typhoid >> Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever >> Leptospira Leptospirosis >> Yersinia Yersiniosis >> Escherichia coli Diarrhea >> >> Worms Disease >> Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis >> >> Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. >> (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. >> >> Greg >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] >> On >> Behalf Of brentswain38 >> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> >> >> 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. >> If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why >> worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it >> warms, if and when they are needed. >> When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com >> >> , paulcotter@... wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brent, >>> >>> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering >> a afixing an >>> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to >> collect liquids - >>> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also >> contemplated running >>> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when >> its cold. >>> >>> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected >> directly to crank on >>> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it >> together? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I >> changed the >>> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the >> handle >>> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when >> not >>> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to >> put a >>> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >>> > unmixed parts . >>> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole >> for >>> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in >> it ,and it >>> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now >> to >>> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >>> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch >> square >>> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >>> > things up and mix better. >>> > Brent >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14222|14222|2007-09-10 18:16:51|jonathanswef|Moonflower of Moabith|Carl and Kate, I looked at your site and it was gone! I felt a strong sense of loss. Checked again today and it was back. Phew! With Brent's book, Alex's video and your site one has a complete set of tools to get on with the job. I look forward to more on the fitting out from both you and Alex. Keep up the good work please. Jonathan.| 14223|14072|2007-09-10 18:29:48|jonathanswef|Eighteen|Well I've continued in my endeavours. The fore deck is on as are the side decks and one of the stern decks and the foot well. I hope to get the port stern deck in tomorrow. I then have the front end of the foot well to fit and I can get on with the pilot house. I have found the 6011 rods much more difficult to use than the 6013 and 7024. When I strike successfully it is terrific until I break the arc to move on to another stitch and then I struggle to get it going again. I have found downhand on vertical bits much easier than uphand. I will keep trying but any hints from the pros are welcome. I've been offered this Kubota horizontal engine with hydraulic pump and motors; I'm a little uncertain as on a tractor or forklift there is usually an oil cooler to shed the waste heat, I don't quite see where and how I could rig that on my little boat. I love the idea of being able to put the engine flat and wherever I chose rather than in line with the stern tube though... Jonathan.| 14224|14222|2007-09-11 09:25:00|Carl Anderson|Re: Moonflower of Moabith|Jonathan, I have changed the url for the website. It now has its own domain at: www.moonflowerofmoab.com I will be making a CD available that has all the pictures I took during construction (somewhere around 1900 of them!). Carl jonathanswef wrote: > > > Carl and Kate, > I looked at your site and it was gone! I felt a strong sense of loss. > Checked again today and it was back. Phew! With Brent's book, Alex's > video and your site one has a complete set of tools to get on with the > job. I look forward to more on the fitting out from both you and Alex. > Keep up the good work please. > Jonathan. > > | 14225|14187|2007-09-11 22:49:10|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|I hate to mention this, but what the hell, seems to me a recent India prime minister was a proponent of imbibing ones own (presumbably lol) urine as a health tonic...course he might be dead now, :) and no, I'm not kidding, really was the prime minister. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. > > Only if someone is carrying a disease. Unlike the lower alimentary > tract which is a-wash with bacteria both nasty and beneficial, the > urinary tract should be sterile in healthy folk - so the urine should > also be free of any 'nasties' - unless of course someone has a urinary > infection: in which case, best see a doctor eh ? > > The longer the urethra, the less chance of any unfriendly organisms > finding a 'home' to breed from. So - "bad luck", girls .... > > Colin > | 14226|14187|2007-09-11 23:43:52|aguysailing|Re: Airhead improvements|I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss over some thimbleberry tea. I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here are his remarks: Gary, I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic so please refer to this. On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs quicker at higher temperatures. Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US and the particular author stated that he had included a list of potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our municipal systems. So just to drive my point home: We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers all over the country every single day! *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! Geoff Trott General Manager Eos Design LLC. Portland, ME --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > unmixed parts . > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > > things up and mix better. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 14228|14187|2007-09-12 04:08:32|sae140|Re: Airhead improvements|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I hate to mention this, but what the hell, seems to me a recent India > prime minister was a proponent of imbibing ones own (presumbably lol) > urine as a health tonic...course he might be dead now, :) and no, I'm > not kidding, really was the prime minister. > > seer > I'm all for politicians taking a lead when it comes to re-cycling There's a whole host of stuff about urine on the web, but I think it's important to keep such info in context, as talk of bacteria at a concentration of 10,000 organisms/ml may sound scary, but it's actually a fairly low concentration as bugs go, and these organisms may not even be pathogenic (i.e. cause disease). A couple of relevant quotes: "Urine is generally sterile, but sometimes bacteria (or, more rarely, yeast) can move from the skin outside the urethra and migrate back up the urinary tract to cause a urinary tract infection" http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/urine_culture/sample.html "In human excreta faeces contain almost all the pathogens, while urine is sterile and contains the bulk of the nutrients." "Urine is generally considered safe for use, if it is kept free of faeces. Very few organisms are passed through the urine. Those that are passed in urine include Salmonella typhi (typhoid), Salmonella paratyphi (paratyphoid fever) and Schistosoma haematobium (biharzia). The first two do not survive long once outside the body and will be eliminated from urine after it has been stored for a couple of days. The bilharzia cycle is broken if people urinate in water which does not contain the intermediate host to complete transmission (usually snails). Therefore if urine is stored for a few days and the storage tank is drained at intervals the risk of contamination from one of the above organisms is minimal. If cross-contamination with faeces does occur, storage of urine for two to three months will render it safe." http://www.africanwater.org/ecosan_health.htm I think this last one is highly relevant. Africa is really bad news when it comes to diseases - so can undoubtedly be considered as the 'worst-case' environment. As to drinking pi$$ itself - I did it for many years as a teenager .... it was called Watney's 'Red Barrel'. Colin| 14229|14187|2007-09-12 04:39:02|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Airhead improvements|For the complete (in all its glorey) info on this subject read THE HUMANURE HANDBOOK, THIRD EDITION A GUIDE TO COMPOSTING HUMAN MANURE by Joseph Jenkins you can download it here as a pdf http://www.weblife.org/humanure/ -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) aguysailing wrote: > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > | 14230|14187|2007-09-12 04:39:23|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Mother Nature ( I won't say god ,because he hadn't been invented by man at that stage) gave my predecessors two dump valves pointing at the ground. Not at a toilet. So that is where it's meant to go. Provided of course that the concentrations in any particular area do not over ride the abillity of the local enviroment to deal with them. My many years spent in remote areas of under developed nations demonstrated to me dramatically that problems only surfaced when we, the developed world, enforce our concepts of sanitation upon them. So go natural; all power to composting. Later pol ps One test of virginity in the middle ages was the ability of the bride to pass a stream of said 'liquid' through the wedding band. Splash the ring; the marriage was forsaken. Let's get back to boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I hate to mention this, but what the hell, seems to me a recent India > > prime minister was a proponent of imbibing ones own (presumbably lol) > > urine as a health tonic...course he might be dead now, :) and no, I'm > > not kidding, really was the prime minister. > > > > seer > > > > I'm all for politicians taking a lead when it comes to re-cycling > > There's a whole host of stuff about urine on the web, but I think it's > important to keep such info in context, as talk of bacteria at a > concentration of 10,000 organisms/ml may sound scary, but it's > actually a fairly low concentration as bugs go, and these organisms > may not even be pathogenic (i.e. cause disease). > > A couple of relevant quotes: > "Urine is generally sterile, but sometimes bacteria (or, more rarely, > yeast) can move from the skin outside the urethra and migrate back up > the urinary tract to cause a urinary tract infection" > http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/urine_culture/sam ple.html > > > "In human excreta faeces contain almost all the pathogens, while urine > is sterile and contains the bulk of the nutrients." > "Urine is generally considered safe for use, if it is kept free of > faeces. Very few organisms are passed through the urine. Those that > are passed in urine include Salmonella typhi (typhoid), Salmonella > paratyphi (paratyphoid fever) and Schistosoma haematobium (biharzia). > The first two do not survive long once outside the body and will be > eliminated from urine after it has been stored for a couple of days. > The bilharzia cycle is broken if people urinate in water which does > not contain the intermediate host to complete transmission (usually > snails). Therefore if urine is stored for a few days and the storage > tank is drained at intervals the risk of contamination from one of the > above organisms is minimal. If cross-contamination with faeces does > occur, storage of urine for two to three months will render it safe." > http://www.africanwater.org/ecosan_health.htm > > I think this last one is highly relevant. Africa is really bad news > when it comes to diseases - so can undoubtedly be considered as the > 'worst-case' environment. > > As to drinking pi$$ itself - I did it for many years as a teenager > > .... it was called Watney's 'Red Barrel'. > > Colin > | 14231|14231|2007-09-12 09:53:05|J Fisher|Re: design?|Brents designs can be built as single or double keel. The plans contain drawings for both. John -------Original Message------- From: harveyplanes Date: 9/11/2007 10:39:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] design? I understand that the Swain design's have been proven in open water as well as through the Northwest passage. I am more then just a little interested (read determined) to do the northwest passage as well antarctica. I have always owned fin keel and/or centerboards boats. I have read that the stability of twin keels is not the best choice due to its righting ability. Do any of the Swain designs have fin and/or centerboards? Are there any other good origami boats designs out there? I am new to the origami concept, so any help would be great. Thanks! R s/v Ohana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14232|14187|2007-09-12 11:23:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|Have a truly sick person use your toilet. Would you be willing to eat/drink the end product after a couple of weeks of "composting"? Why would you want someone's kids to swim in it? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aguysailing Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss over some thimbleberry tea. I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here are his remarks: Gary, I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic so please refer to this. On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs quicker at higher temperatures. Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US and the particular author stated that he had included a list of potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our municipal systems. So just to drive my point home: We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers all over the country every single day! *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! Geoff Trott General Manager Eos Design LLC. Portland, ME --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > unmixed parts . > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > > things up and mix better. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14233|14187|2007-09-12 14:01:59|Ben Okopnik|Re: Airhead improvements|On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 03:42:48AM -0000, aguysailing wrote: > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. [snipped] Good, well-thought-out stuff. Thanks for forwarding it, Gary. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14234|14187|2007-09-12 14:19:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: Airhead improvements|On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 08:19:05AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > Have a truly sick person use your toilet. Would you be willing to > eat/drink the end product after a couple of weeks of "composting"? Why > would you want someone's kids to swim in it? Ah, yes - the standard troll's/fanatic's cry of "who, pray *WHO* will save the children?????" Greg, you're the only guy I know who'd want to eat someone else's excrement (since you're suggesting it for others, it's obviously a standard feature of your diet); I don't know that you'll find any other volunteers here. Why don't you give it a rest for a while? Everybody here - perhaps with the exception of new members - already knows about you and your frantic attempts to look like an expert, when what you are in reality is just some guy who bought a piece of CAD software and ripped off Brent's design. To give you some credit, you at least had the taste to steal from the best... oh, right - given the previous discussion, you "borrowed" it. Right. I know you're trying to "drive people to your site", as you've previously told me in email. I know that you think of people here as cattle to be driven. We've all got that pretty clearly; you've made your point. The only thing I'm asking is, can you just keep the noise down to a minimum while we discuss real issues - ones that are related to origami boats? Thanks in advance, and have a nice day. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14235|14231|2007-09-12 15:35:22|harveyplanes|Re: design?|What is the beam? I live on a Catalina 30 now. My wife, my daughter, and myself. We are expecting a new baby in January and the Catalina 30 will not hold us all. My wife and I also have the desire for high latitude sailing. I understand that the interior arragement is up to personal taste, but do you think it could hold us all? Thanks! Randy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Brents designs can be built as single or double keel. The plans contain > drawings for both. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: harveyplanes > Date: 9/11/2007 10:39:55 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] design? > > I understand that the Swain design's have been proven in open water as > well as through the Northwest passage. > > I am more then just a little interested (read determined) to do the > northwest passage as well antarctica. I have always owned fin keel > and/or centerboards boats. I have read that the stability of twin keels > is not the best choice due to its righting ability. > > Do any of the Swain designs have fin and/or centerboards? Are there any > other good origami boats designs out there? > > I am new to the origami concept, so any help would be great. Thanks! > > R > s/v Ohana > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14236|14231|2007-09-12 15:59:54|J Fisher|Re: design?|From brents book, the 31 has a oal of 31, lwl 26.5, beam 10, draft 4.5, disp 12,000. The 36 has a oal of 35.5, lwl 30, beam 10.5, draft 6, disp 17,300. The 40 has a oal of 40, lwl 36, beam 12, draft 6.5, disp 25,000. Please note I took some liberties with rounding. John -------Original Message------- From: harveyplanes Date: 9/12/2007 12:36:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: design? What is the beam? I live on a Catalina 30 now. My wife, my daughter, and myself. We are expecting a new baby in January and the Catalina 30 will not hold us all. My wife and I also have the desire for high latitude sailing. I understand that the interior arragement is up to personal taste, but do you think it could hold us all? Thanks! Randy . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14237|14187|2007-09-12 16:34:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is correct. As you have so eloquently pointed out, it is the person that dumps a bucket of shit overboard, having aged it in a bucket for a couple of weeks, that wants everyone else to sample their wares. Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on this site. If you are looking to take someone to task over this issue, your comments are better directed to Brent. None of my designs are based on Brent's and the folding technique I use is different. I hear over and over again on this site, look at what a person's advice has done for them. My advice got me cruising for nearly 20 years with my family, self-financed, while building wealth and equity. Most cruising advice does the opposite, it shows you how to cruise, in return for giving up wealth, family, or both. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 08:19:05AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > Have a truly sick person use your toilet. Would you be willing to > eat/drink the end product after a couple of weeks of "composting"? Why > would you want someone's kids to swim in it? Ah, yes - the standard troll's/fanatic's cry of "who, pray *WHO* will save the children?????" Greg, you're the only guy I know who'd want to eat someone else's excrement (since you're suggesting it for others, it's obviously a standard feature of your diet); I don't know that you'll find any other volunteers here. Why don't you give it a rest for a while? Everybody here - perhaps with the exception of new members - already knows about you and your frantic attempts to look like an expert, when what you are in reality is just some guy who bought a piece of CAD software and ripped off Brent's design. To give you some credit, you at least had the taste to steal from the best... oh, right - given the previous discussion, you "borrowed" it. Right. I know you're trying to "drive people to your site", as you've previously told me in email. I know that you think of people here as cattle to be driven. We've all got that pretty clearly; you've made your point. The only thing I'm asking is, can you just keep the noise down to a minimum while we discuss real issues - ones that are related to origami boats? Thanks in advance, and have a nice day. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14238|14231|2007-09-12 17:12:07|harveyplanes|Re: design?|John, Thanks for the info. That's exactly what I was wondering! That tells me I need atleast the 36, no more then the 40. From what I have gathered so far I think one of these two designs will be perfect. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > From brents book, the 31 has a oal of 31, lwl 26.5, beam 10, draft 4.5, disp > 12,000. The 36 has a oal of 35.5, lwl 30, beam 10.5, draft 6, disp 17,300. > The 40 has a oal of 40, lwl 36, beam 12, draft 6.5, disp 25,000. > > Please note I took some liberties with rounding. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: harveyplanes > Date: 9/12/2007 12:36:36 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: design? > > What is the beam? I live on a Catalina 30 now. My wife, my daughter, > and myself. We are expecting a new baby in January and the Catalina > 30 will not hold us all. My wife and I also have the desire for high > latitude sailing. I understand that the interior arragement is up to > personal taste, but do you think it could hold us all? Thanks! > > Randy > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14239|14211|2007-09-12 18:06:28|brentswain38|Re: Origami Boat Listing|If It's John Burton's old boat "Arc-E- Type, the chine had a section of 8 inch pipe welded to the inside, then the chine was cut and pounded around the pipe. He said it was a week's extra work, and could have been done with a larger pipe. Whether it was worth the effort is questionable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp? currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats= 1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc% 3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid% 3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom% 3D126%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom% 3D126%26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim% 3Dquick%26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252% 253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > | 14240|14211|2007-09-12 18:11:21|brentswain38|Re: Origami Boat Listing|When John sold it it was mostly bare fir plywood inside. It has sure come a long way since then. Such a deal! John was a machinist so the engine was first class. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp? currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id=1766002&checked_boats=17 66002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735% 26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26hmid%3D103% 26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D126% 26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126% 26toLength%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick% 26prc%3D41043%26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc% 3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > | 14241|14187|2007-09-12 18:16:41|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|I use a large amount of peat moss , found under moss covered logs, to get things going. I cut a 2 inch inlet for air, didn't work as well as the slight opening under the shit hole lid, so I closed it off. Drawing air from the bowl keeps the smell of a fresh dump down better. The lid is not a tight seal. Febreeze became over powering in the small cabin of a boat, so I use it sparingly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Do you mix anything containing carbon such as sawdust, chopped straw, > shredded paper, etc in the composter? > > It is important to get the carbon/nitrogen ratio fairly correct to get > good composting. I have seen wooden pallets (carbon) and chicken > feathers (nitrogen) composted after being broken into bits. It was at > a commercial operation near Boston UK and although it seemed an > unlikely mix, it worked. > > Do you have two air access points, one inlet and one outlet? I should > think that you would need a through flow of air to get sufficient > aeration, perhaps even a fan with carbon filters to stop the smell. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some > > smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. > > Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also > > smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. > > Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do > > the trick. > > Brent > | 14242|14187|2007-09-12 18:24:21|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|So what is Greg advocating? That we all move ashore and increase our environmental footprint exponentially , our water consumption 300 times and our electrical consumption 10,000 times ,and our greenhouse gas output exponentially, and our overall consumption exponentially? Duhhhh! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14243|14187|2007-09-12 20:15:08|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|I've met the owner of the airhead company. We spent about two hours one slow day at the Atlantic City, NJ boat show discussing how it worked and the fun of getting something like it into production. The comments about the municipal sewage plant discharge I find interesting. Those plants filter the final effluent through a clarifier. A clarifier is just a big tank that slowly settles the sludge and the clear water flows over the top of a weir. When they have trouble with the biology, the bugs are unhappy as we put it, solids don't all settle, and some passes over the weir and out to your local stream. They measure this as turbidity. You probably see it as shitty brown. We build membrane systems. The membrane in this case is a thin coating of pvdf plastic on the inside of a tube constructed of a porous paperlike material. The pores in membrane are so small that it passes no solids at all. None, nada, zip, zero. So it doesn't pass the bacteria that eat the sewage, or the organisms that feed on them, or viruses either. When the bugs aren't happy in our system we have higher amounts of dissolved nitrogen compounds in the effluent water and that is about it. The water is still absolutely crystal clear. We did a job for the Crystal Springs bottled water people. Their water from plant cleaning amounts to about 60,000 gallons a day. They were sending it to the local sewer plant and being charged with a huge surcharge, about $60,000 a month to treat it. Not because it was dirty, but because it was already so clean it didn't provide enough food for the bacteria in the sewer plant! The local politicians treated these guys like crap, always finding things wrong and trying to charge even more money. So they hired us. We took the 60,000 gallons of almost clean water and ran it through a membrane. We now send 3,000 gallons a day of waste water 20 times more concentrated to the local sewer plant. It now is concentrated enough to eliminate the $60,000 a month surcharge, and they are only paying for 3,000 gallons to be treated! The other 57,000 gallons is so clean, far cleaner than the sewer plant discharge that it now goes directly into a local stream. Of course they weren't going to allow that without proof. So a very expensive turbidity meter was installed to measure the solids. It didn't seem to work properly, it just flashed a line of dashes and no numbers so they had to bring in a factory guy to fix it. He played with it for about an hour, and then said "Damn , this is really clean water! It's so far below our detection threshold that it can't even decide to show zero!" As for those local stuffed shirts down at the sewer plant. There was an article in the local paper blaming Crystal Springs for bankrupting the sewage authority! It seems they had been busily spending all those fees and surcharges all the while biting the hand that fed them. We cut off their revenue source. They actually visited the plant with hat in hand to see if they could maybe send them a little more dirty water. Yeah right. So there is hope for the future in cleaning up all those regular sewer plants. One of the other big advantages to membranes is space. We can convert a conventional plant to membranes using much of the old tanks and plumbing. This give you 4 times the capacity in the same footprint with effluent quality 10 times better than the best the old plant could produce, even when things aren't running really well. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "aguysailing" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 11:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss over some thimbleberry tea. I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here are his remarks: Gary, I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic so please refer to this. On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs quicker at higher temperatures. Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US and the particular author stated that he had included a list of potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our municipal systems. So just to drive my point home: We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers all over the country every single day! *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! Geoff Trott General Manager Eos Design LLC. Portland, ME --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > unmixed parts . > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > > things up and mix better. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 14244|14211|2007-09-12 23:09:33|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing|They may have simply added onto the keel to move lateral plane either fore or aft as needed, which shouldn't be a big deal. As for submerging, if it was properly refit, that's no problem. Boats sink, people raise them, refloat and refit with no problems, though not knowing the specifics of the sinking I could not say for sure. In any case, a steel boat, epoxy-sealed inside and out, would not have suffered from a submersion. I just hope they figured out why the boat sank in the first place, because I doubt it was from holing. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Knut F Garshol Date: Sunday, September 9, 2007 7:14 am Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Alex (or may be Brent?), > > > > the boat sure looks exceptional on the pictures. Does anyone > know anything > about the mentioned sinking (or did I get that wrong)? What > would be the > potential problems to look out for if the hull has been > submerged and then > refitted? > > > > With the forestay on a bowsprit this is a modification to the > normal BS > design? Is that why they mention in the sales prospect that the > keel has > been modified (moved?)? Otherwise, I would assume the sail > balance would get > wrong and she would tend to fall off the wind rather than go up > in the wind > in a gust (not what you want). > > > > I would appreciate your view on this based on experience with > the normal > sail layout for the 36Â’ BS. > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:42 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing > > > > I see what you mean about the chine. It looks like they pulled > the boat > together, probably welded supports inside to keep the hull in > shape, then > replaced the hard chine with radiused pieces. I doubt there was any > appreciable difference in over-all speed, but it looks purdy out > of the > water. Dolphins might admire that round chine too, which is > important :p > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: renrut5 com> > Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > > > http://www.yachtwor > eet> > ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id > =1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResult > s.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26 > hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D12 > 6%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLen > gth%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043% > 26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14245|14187|2007-09-12 23:22:00|ALEX CHRISTIE|My Swain 36 for sale|Well, being that I have two 36 foot Swain hulls, I'm thinking about selling the floating one ("Shair") and focussing intensively on the bare hull and fitting-out filmwork. Call it two-foot-itis, but I've already had a fascinating time using her and learning about which things I want to incorporate in another hull. I may do some refit to her first, but may sell as is, which would be reflected in the value. After a refit she'll be listed for sale at a higher price. Interested parties can contact me at dharmalex@... as I don't have internet currently until monday and pick up messages on my phone. Shair is afloat in Fanny Bay, about 23 kms south of Comox, BC. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Friday, September 7, 2007 11:38 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no > smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when > it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > a afixing an > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir > to > collect liquids - > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > its cold. > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded > the > handle > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > not > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I > plan to > put a > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > be no > > > unmixed parts . > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch > intake hole > for > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > to > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or > 2 inch > square > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > > things up and mix better. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14246|14187|2007-09-13 00:52:29|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|jesus ben, you don't have to sugar coat it, why don't you tell him what you really think! LOL. btw, our little discussion about possible developments in the mideast is now looking pretty prophetic. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 08:19:05AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > Have a truly sick person use your toilet. Would you be willing to > > eat/drink the end product after a couple of weeks of "composting"? Why > > would you want someone's kids to swim in it? > > Ah, yes - the standard troll's/fanatic's cry of "who, pray *WHO* will > save the children?????" Greg, you're the only guy I know who'd want to > eat someone else's excrement (since you're suggesting it for others, > it's obviously a standard feature of your diet); I don't know that > you'll find any other volunteers here. > > Why don't you give it a rest for a while? Everybody here - perhaps with > the exception of new members - already knows about you and your frantic > attempts to look like an expert, when what you are in reality is just > some guy who bought a piece of CAD software and ripped off Brent's > design. To give you some credit, you at least had the taste to steal > from the best... oh, right - given the previous discussion, you > "borrowed" it. Right. > > I know you're trying to "drive people to your site", as you've > previously told me in email. I know that you think of people here as > cattle to be driven. We've all got that pretty clearly; you've made > your point. > > The only thing I'm asking is, can you just keep the noise down to a > minimum while we discuss real issues - ones that are related to origami > boats? Thanks in advance, and have a nice day. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14247|14247|2007-09-13 07:11:36|Alfredo Nannetti|A trip to Canada|Dear Origami Group, the 26th of september I will be in Vancouver. I planned this trip in the way to understand better evrything about Brent Swain origami boats.I' m going to see Brent, by a project and possibly see 31 and 36 footers, already navigating, to have an idea of the different solutions adopted by evry single owner. Brent told me that the best places to see boats are Nanaimo and Comox. I come from Italy and i don't have so many days to spend in BC. I would like to ask if there is someone of you that would gently show me his boat during the ten days after the 26 of september, when I'll be there. Thanks a lot Alfredo| 14248|14187|2007-09-13 09:14:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|I advocate that people don't dump their waste in lakes and harbors. Do you have a problem with that? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 3:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements So what is Greg advocating? That we all move ashore and increase our environmental footprint exponentially , our water consumption 300 times and our electrical consumption 10,000 times ,and our greenhouse gas output exponentially, and our overall consumption exponentially? Duhhhh! Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14249|14072|2007-09-13 10:46:25|SHANE ROTHWELL|Eighteen|Johnathan, you can mount the engine anywhere you like, flat, and ANYWHERE you like without the bullshit of carfully alighning it it the prop shaft & setting yourself up for burning out the engine cuz it's not getting oil properly. Go to the wrecker & get a drive shaft out of a 5 ton truck with both universals. Make up a plate for each end (1 for the aft end of the gear box & the other end for the end of the prop shaft) so that you can mount the drive shaft with the universals between the 2. you may have to shorten the drive shaft. Then mount you engine where you like it. it doesn't hurt to ballance it a bit but it's not turning at any real speed so ballance is not a major issue. One caviat (sp) tho. if you hard mount the drive shaft as mentioned above you must soft mount the engine or you will have vibro problems. go a bit oversized on the mounts Cheers, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14250|14187|2007-09-13 11:59:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Airhead improvements|On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is correct. Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > this site. Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a spammer. This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping in here? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14251|14187|2007-09-13 14:52:20|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|Origami techniques for sheet metal working were around thousands of years before Lundstrom.His attempt at monopolising the method was never much more than an attempted scam.His patent was about as valid as a patent on the wheel. Gary Curtis told him this and never heard from him again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is correct. > > Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand > simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being > spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the > former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, > continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are > definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't > know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > > > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > > this site. > > Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a > good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have > admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here > in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a > spammer. > > This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that > this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do > here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much > _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping > in here? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14252|14187|2007-09-13 15:03:59|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|It has become self evident that more peat moss is the key.Don't skimp, its free. If things start to smell, add more peat moss and more mixing( which the bowl shaped bottom will help immensly)lots of mixing and the smell disapears quickly. The 75 million buffalo that preceded us didn't have holding tanks , and there was no problem until so called "wiser" humans began mixing it with liquids. I started out with a bucket for a head. I went to the lavac for political reasons, logs floating in the harbour were bad politics.Had I seen the airhead before I would have gone directly to it. I don't believe boats are anything more than a convenient scapegoat in a place where huge cities like Vancouver and Victoria dump huge amonts of untreated sewage in the sea . My airhead is not in response to such targeting , its for the sheer simplicity of a composter .No more pumps , check valves , thru hulls hoses , etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14253|14187|2007-09-13 15:12:17|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|No Greg, you may not use my toilet. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Have a truly sick person use your toilet. Would you be willing to > eat/drink the end product after a couple of weeks of "composting"? Why > would you want someone's kids to swim in it? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of aguysailing > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:43 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14254|14187|2007-09-13 15:15:36|brentswain38|Re: My Swain 36 for sale|Alex Dont sell the floating one until the next one is ready to move aboard. Otherwise a place to live will quickly eat up al the funds before you get the new one off the land.With a boat to live on, you have all the time inthe world to scrounge the next one together. I'll be down your way as soon as swimmin weather ends, probably next week Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Well, being that I have two 36 foot Swain hulls, I'm thinking about selling the floating one ("Shair") and focussing intensively on the bare hull and fitting-out filmwork. Call it two-foot-itis, but I've already had a fascinating time using her and learning about which things I want to incorporate in another hull. I may do some refit to her first, but may sell as is, which would be reflected in the value. After a refit she'll be listed for sale at a higher price. > > Interested parties can contact me at dharmalex@... as I don't have internet currently until monday and pick up messages on my phone. > > Shair is afloat in Fanny Bay, about 23 kms south of Comox, BC. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Friday, September 7, 2007 11:38 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no > > smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when > > it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir > > to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded > > the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I > > plan to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > > be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch > > intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or > > 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14255|14211|2007-09-13 15:19:49|brentswain38|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing|I doubt if it sank.That sounds like some bullshit speculation. John sold the boat for $35,000 CDN so the owner got a super deal and probably didn't have much more than the asking price into it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > They may have simply added onto the keel to move lateral plane either fore or aft as needed, which shouldn't be a big deal. As for submerging, if it was properly refit, that's no problem. Boats sink, people raise them, refloat and refit with no problems, though not knowing the specifics of the sinking I could not say for sure. In any case, a steel boat, epoxy-sealed inside and out, would not have suffered from a submersion. I just hope they figured out why the boat sank in the first place, because I doubt it was from holing. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Knut F Garshol > Date: Sunday, September 9, 2007 7:14 am > Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Alex (or may be Brent?), > > > > > > > > the boat sure looks exceptional on the pictures. Does anyone > > know anything > > about the mentioned sinking (or did I get that wrong)? What > > would be the > > potential problems to look out for if the hull has been > > submerged and then > > refitted? > > > > > > > > With the forestay on a bowsprit this is a modification to the > > normal BS > > design? Is that why they mention in the sales prospect that the > > keel has > > been modified (moved?)? Otherwise, I would assume the sail > > balance would get > > wrong and she would tend to fall off the wind rather than go up > > in the wind > > in a gust (not what you want). > > > > > > > > I would appreciate your view on this based on experience with > > the normal > > sail layout for the 36' BS. > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE > > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:42 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing > > > > > > > > I see what you mean about the chine. It looks like they pulled > > the boat > > together, probably welded supports inside to keep the hull in > > shape, then > > replaced the hard chine with radiused pieces. I doubt there was any > > appreciable difference in over-all speed, but it looks purdy out > > of the > > water. Dolphins might admire that round chine too, which is > > important :p > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: renrut5 com> > > Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > > > > > http://www.yachtwor > > > eet> > > ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id > > =1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResult > > s.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26 > > hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D12 > > 6%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLen > > gth%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043% > > 26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > > > > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14256|14187|2007-09-13 15:20:12|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in exceptionally sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14257|14257|2007-09-13 17:20:21|aguysailing|Burning Sea Water|I liked the idea about the Air Head and have one aboard my BS36. Along the lines of less harmful living, this link says that we may be burning sea water instead of fossil fuels. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iT1KAi6UEPN8LqZlvLnfsxP7ToKw| 14258|14187|2007-09-13 20:06:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|More than a few people on this site have required hospitalization after swimming in water contaminated with sewage. Cities that dump sewage into the ocean are not something to be copied. Nature mixes waste with water (rain) and filters the effluent through soil. This allows a range of bacteria, fungi and such to break the waste down, given enough time. With sparse enough population, this will work to a degree. It is very likely that the buffalo suffered from many disease and parasites passed from animal to animal through grazing grass contaminated with waste. It is quite likely parasites such as worms were commonly passed between the buffalo and the human populations that fed on them. The principles behind pasteurization, the combination of time and heat to eliminate pathogens, was a key step forward in eliminating human disease. The idea that you can take a chamber pot, age it for a couple of weeks like cheap wine, and render it harmless is called rationalization. Over time, waste in a chamber pot will become harmless. However, depending on the pathogens involved, you may be talking months, even years at room temperature. A composting toilet that raises the temperature of the waste will significantly reduce the time required to eliminate pathogens, as well as speeding decay significantly. I have no argument against composting. Done correctly, the heat generated by composting renders the waste harmless. Done incorrectly, it is a problem. People will dump their waste, think it is harmless, when in fact the pathogens remain. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 12:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements It has become self evident that more peat moss is the key.Don't skimp, its free. If things start to smell, add more peat moss and more mixing( which the bowl shaped bottom will help immensly)lots of mixing and the smell disapears quickly. The 75 million buffalo that preceded us didn't have holding tanks , and there was no problem until so called "wiser" humans began mixing it with liquids. I started out with a bucket for a head. I went to the lavac for political reasons, logs floating in the harbour were bad politics.Had I seen the airhead before I would have gone directly to it. I don't believe boats are anything more than a convenient scapegoat in a place where huge cities like Vancouver and Victoria dump huge amonts of untreated sewage in the sea . My airhead is not in response to such targeting , its for the sheer simplicity of a composter .No more pumps , check valves , thru hulls hoses , etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > over some thimbleberry tea. > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > are his remarks: > > Gary, > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > so please refer to this. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > only. > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > quicker at higher temperatures. > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > municipal systems. > > So just to drive my point home: > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > all over the country every single day! > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > Geoff Trott > General Manager > Eos Design LLC. > Portland, ME > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > SE Asia. > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > not > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > up, you > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > sufficient to > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > when you > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > 1,000 > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > bacteria of a > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > Infected > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > Bacteria Disease > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > Worms Disease > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > Ricki. > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > considering > > a afixing an > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > collect liquids - > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > contemplated running > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > when > > its cold. > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > directly to crank on > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > together? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > changed the > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > handle > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > when > > not > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > to > > put a > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > for > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > it ,and it > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > dump.Now > > to > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > square > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > break > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14259|14187|2007-09-13 21:01:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|My point exactly. The idea that people are somehow ripping off Brent when they design origami boats is nonsense. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Origami techniques for sheet metal working were around thousands of years before Lundstrom.His attempt at monopolising the method was never much more than an attempted scam.His patent was about as valid as a patent on the wheel. Gary Curtis told him this and never heard from him again. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is correct. > > Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand > simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being > spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the > former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, > continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are > definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't > know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > > > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > > this site. > > Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a > good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have > admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here > in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a > spammer. > > This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that > this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do > here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much > _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping > in here? > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14260|14187|2007-09-13 21:58:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|My comments show: 1. I don't think you should be dumping your waste into harbors and lakes. 2. I've got the practical sailing experience to support my ideas Your comments show: 1. You get disturbed and angry when faced with contrary opinions. 2. Nothing gets some people more upset than when they are wrong and the other guy is right. I'm all for advice when it has value. What has your advice done for you? As I understand things you are living on an (old?) boat, tied to a dock for quite some time. You have a poor credit rating, which typically means you don't pay your bills, or have little or no assets or savings. That isn't what I want. I started with zip, cruised for almost 20 years, and ended up with everything paid for with plenty of assets and savings. According to what you believe, this shouldn't be possible. So therefore I must be lying. I'm sailing 2 nights a week, with more available if I want. More than most cruisers. I just came back from 2 weeks house boating in the Shuswap with the wife, kids, dog, and a bunch of teenagers. I ski all winter, then back to sailing. I'm living the life I want and my advice worked for me. I take a contrary position on many issues because to me that is the key to breaking free of the ideas that keep you chained to the dock, the job, poverty, whatever. More often than not, it is what people believe to be true that limits them. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is correct. Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > this site. Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a spammer. This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping in here? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14261|14261|2007-09-13 21:59:10|Charles & Ileen Bugeja|Please stop the bull|When are you guys going to stop talking about shit and who stole whose design?I taught that this group of inteligent people will spend more time talking about boat constucting and less about shit! So come on boys, lets talk shop. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14262|14262|2007-09-13 22:01:00|Eduardo Mendes Dias|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History|Seer, Gary, Sorry for interfering, but I'd like to say something. I have been reading your comments about surfaces used to build origami boats, and the attempt to model them using rhino software. The problem is that those surfaces are neither cones nor cylinders. There is a more general type of developable surface. The main difference is that for the general type two adjacent generatrices of the surface are not coplanar, as they are in cones and cylinders( you don't have vorteces to work with). It is the most general flatable (foldable) surface known, and it can represent all the shapes you may obtain when folding a sheet of paper. You may represent it using tangents to the directrix curves. Indeed, if you have two 3d continuous curves, toghether with the first derivative, then you have one and only one developable surface that match (contains) those curves. So, to represent it, you must find a plane which is tangent to both curves. It will be tangent to the surface throught a generatrix. And every point of the surface contains one and only one generatrix, unless the surface is flat. Those curves may be the longitudinal profile of the boat (stem and stern), or the deck curve, or the chine. After drawing sucessive generatrixes you may then cut them to obtain sections: transversal, longitudinal or horizontal sections. When the surface becomes geometrically impossible, it produces a regression edge, which is the chine edge. regards eduardo| 14263|14263|2007-09-13 22:01:13|Eduardo Mendes Dias|propellor shaft|Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14264|14264|2007-09-13 22:01:45|drddias|propllor shaft|Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14265|14072|2007-09-13 22:18:45|Wesley Cox|Re: Eighteen|You might not be giving it enough juice. Once you have the heat right, it's just a matter of practice. A trick I use if I can see too much metal bead at the end of a rod and not enough flux, caused by sticking or too long of an arc before it last broke and causing a PITA re-start, is to drag the rod on the work piece at about a 20-30 degree angle, very shallow, 2" or so and repeat. It burns off the excess filler metal protruding too far beyond the flux without sticking again, quickly making the rod start an arc smoother than when new. ----- Original Message ----- From: jonathanswef To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen Well I've continued in my endeavours. The fore deck is on as are the side decks and one of the stern decks and the foot well. I hope to get the port stern deck in tomorrow. I then have the front end of the foot well to fit and I can get on with the pilot house. I have found the 6011 rods much more difficult to use than the 6013 and 7024. When I strike successfully it is terrific until I break the arc to move on to another stitch and then I struggle to get it going again. I have found downhand on vertical bits much easier than uphand. I will keep trying but any hints from the pros are welcome. I've been offered this Kubota horizontal engine with hydraulic pump and motors; I'm a little uncertain as on a tractor or forklift there is usually an oil cooler to shed the waste heat, I don't quite see where and how I could rig that on my little boat. I love the idea of being able to put the engine flat and wherever I chose rather than in line with the stern tube though... Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.13/998 - Release Date: 9/10/2007 8:48 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14266|14072|2007-09-13 22:18:48|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen|The fore deck is on! A challenge as it weighs over 200lbs and I am working on my own. In Alex's video he says that the number of crew you need when sailing is the number of folk needed to build it. Except I would add when there are some 'specially big bits to put on. Anyway, I put some 2 x 4s against the side of the hull, put a 20 foot one in the middle, clamped the deck to these and then pulled on a rope at the top of the long one and hay presto! The deck was horizontal. It didn't take too long to get it across and above the hole. Turned out to be a half inch too wide so I was there with the angle grinder cutting that bit off and now it is all hunkey dory and tacked on. Making progress. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14267|14187|2007-09-13 22:18:49|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|Brent, ANY smell indicates that part of your compost is not aerated and going septic, creating a smell. I have a job with a 10,000 gallon aerated bioreactor and a 5,000 gallon anoxic tank (low oxygen but not septic) inside a building down in the Baltimore area that handles residential sewage. In February we served LUNCH in the same room to about 100 professional waste water engineers and potential clients while the system was in full operation! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 2:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do the trick. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > The purpose of the mixing is actually aeration because you are working with > Aerobic bacteria which produce CO2 and Nitrogen so there is no smell. If > the compost sits without being turned over the anaerobic bacteria take over, > producing methane and hydrogen sulfide which smells really bad. So the air > head would work much better if agitated frequently. > > I was thinking there is an easy way to do this. Weld a nut on one side of > your agitator. Use a hardened 440 stainless shoulder bolt (McMaster Carr > 90298A632 $4.31) screwed into the nut as the shaft on one side. Buy a drawn > cup roller cam clutch (Torrington RC-061008 $5.20 or similar) and have a > simple round housing made to press it into. Weld an off center weight onto > the roller cam clutch housing. Press the clutch into the housing such that > it grips the shoulder bolt in the clockwise direction, tightening the > thread. Every time your boat rocks the clutch will turn the agitator > through however many degrees the boat rocks and it will keep turning in the > same direction all the time. This should operate with virtually total > silence. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:18 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Airhead improvements > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I changed the > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the handle > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when not > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to put a > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > unmixed parts . > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole for > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in it ,and it > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now to > find out how long the bottle lasts . > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch square > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break > things up and mix better. > Brent > | 14268|14187|2007-09-13 22:18:49|Aaron Williams|Re: Airhead improvements|Brent If the head was next to the wood stove you could vent into the air inlet and burn the methane and get ride of the smell. Careful on the ingnitions maybe need a backflow (checkvalve) or blowout preventer. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: I use a large amount of peat moss , found under moss covered logs, to get things going. I cut a 2 inch inlet for air, didn't work as well as the slight opening under the shit hole lid, so I closed it off. Drawing air from the bowl keeps the smell of a fresh dump down better. The lid is not a tight seal. Febreeze became over powering in the small cabin of a boat, so I use it sparingly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Do you mix anything containing carbon such as sawdust, chopped straw, > shredded paper, etc in the composter? > > It is important to get the carbon/nitrogen ratio fairly correct to get > good composting. I have seen wooden pallets (carbon) and chicken > feathers (nitrogen) composted after being broken into bits. It was at > a commercial operation near Boston UK and although it seemed an > unlikely mix, it worked. > > Do you have two air access points, one inlet and one outlet? I should > think that you would need a through flow of air to get sufficient > aeration, perhaps even a fan with carbon filters to stop the smell. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some > > smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. > > Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also > > smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. > > Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do > > the trick. > > Brent > --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14269|14187|2007-09-13 22:19:05|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|Brent, That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements I use a large amount of peat moss , found under moss covered logs, to get things going. I cut a 2 inch inlet for air, didn't work as well as the slight opening under the shit hole lid, so I closed it off. Drawing air from the bowl keeps the smell of a fresh dump down better. The lid is not a tight seal. Febreeze became over powering in the small cabin of a boat, so I use it sparingly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Do you mix anything containing carbon such as sawdust, chopped straw, > shredded paper, etc in the composter? > > It is important to get the carbon/nitrogen ratio fairly correct to get > good composting. I have seen wooden pallets (carbon) and chicken > feathers (nitrogen) composted after being broken into bits. It was at > a commercial operation near Boston UK and although it seemed an > unlikely mix, it worked. > > Do you have two air access points, one inlet and one outlet? I should > think that you would need a through flow of air to get sufficient > aeration, perhaps even a fan with carbon filters to stop the smell. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It doesn't seem to mater how much mixing I do , there is always some > > smell, outside when the wind blows the wrong way.No smell below.. > > Gary's commercially made one with the enzymes that it came with also > > smells a bit. Maybe when I get the bowl and rocks in it will stop. > > Till then ,the high stack at the stern and the Febreezee seem to do > > the trick. > > Brent > | 14270|14072|2007-09-13 22:19:24|Jonathan Stevens|Eighteen|The fore deck is on! A challenge as it weighs over 200lbs and I am working on my own. In Alex's video he says that the number of crew you need when sailing is the number of folk needed to build it. Except I would add when there are some 'specially big bits to put on. Anyway, I put some 2 x 4s against the side of the hull, put a 20 foot one in the middle, clamped the deck to these and then pulled on a rope at the top of the long one and hay presto! The deck was horizontal. It didn't take too long to get it across and above the hole. Turned out to be a half inch too wide so I was p there with the angle grinder cutting that bit off and now it is all hunkey dory and tacked on. Making progress. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14271|14271|2007-09-13 22:19:48|Jonathan Stevens|Hydrostatic drive|I had hoped someone with experience of hydraulic motors etc would chip in with some advice. I am concerned about the heat. I've seen oil coolers on the forklifts I've used so I assume the oil must get hot with all that pumping. Driving a propeller shaft at 600 - 800 rpm shouldn't be too onerous should it? Would the reservoir serve to lose what excess heat was generated? I like the idea of being able to put the engine where I like and only have to consider the placing of the motor. One can run the engine at a constant speed and vary prop speed by controlling oil flow to the motor. A bit like diesel electric in some respects. I have had a look at the engine. It is a horizontal twin Kubota and the drive to the pump is with vee belts. The engine is very low so it would fit any where easily. The sump is quite flat though so I wonder if at any heel the engine would be starved of oil. I think this type of engine is used on generators. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14272|14187|2007-09-13 22:21:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|absolutely. The earth is a natural filter for waste. The mistake is in thinking a toilet is an improvement on this. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 1:39 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Mother Nature ( I won't say god ,because he hadn't been invented by man at that stage) gave my predecessors two dump valves pointing at the ground. Not at a toilet. So that is where it's meant to go. Provided of course that the concentrations in any particular area do not over ride the abillity of the local enviroment to deal with them. My many years spent in remote areas of under developed nations demonstrated to me dramatically that problems only surfaced when we, the developed world, enforce our concepts of sanitation upon them. So go natural; all power to composting. Later pol ps One test of virginity in the middle ages was the ability of the bride to pass a stream of said 'liquid' through the wedding band. Splash the ring; the marriage was forsaken. Let's get back to boats. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I hate to mention this, but what the hell, seems to me a recent India > > prime minister was a proponent of imbibing ones own (presumbably lol) > > urine as a health tonic...course he might be dead now, :) and no, I'm > > not kidding, really was the prime minister. > > > > seer > > > > I'm all for politicians taking a lead when it comes to re-cycling > > There's a whole host of stuff about urine on the web, but I think it's > important to keep such info in context, as talk of bacteria at a > concentration of 10,000 organisms/ml may sound scary, but it's > actually a fairly low concentration as bugs go, and these organisms > may not even be pathogenic (i.e. cause disease). > > A couple of relevant quotes: > "Urine is generally sterile, but sometimes bacteria (or, more rarely, > yeast) can move from the skin outside the urethra and migrate back up > the urinary tract to cause a urinary tract infection" > http://www.labtests online.org/understanding/analytes/urine_culture/sam ple.html > > > "In human excreta faeces contain almost all the pathogens, while urine > is sterile and contains the bulk of the nutrients." > "Urine is generally considered safe for use, if it is kept free of > faeces. Very few organisms are passed through the urine. Those that > are passed in urine include Salmonella typhi (typhoid), Salmonella > paratyphi (paratyphoid fever) and Schistosoma haematobium (biharzia). > The first two do not survive long once outside the body and will be > eliminated from urine after it has been stored for a couple of days. > The bilharzia cycle is broken if people urinate in water which does > not contain the intermediate host to complete transmission (usually > snails). Therefore if urine is stored for a few days and the storage > tank is drained at intervals the risk of contamination from one of the > above organisms is minimal. If cross-contamination with faeces does > occur, storage of urine for two to three months will render it safe." > http://www.africanw ater.org/ecosan_health.htm > > I think this last one is highly relevant. Africa is really bad news > when it comes to diseases - so can undoubtedly be considered as the > 'worst-case' environment. > > As to drinking pi$$ itself - I did it for many years as a teenager > > .... it was called Watney's 'Red Barrel'. > > Colin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14273|14187|2007-09-13 22:21:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|I'm all for treating, not mistreating waste. Nutrients from waste are only an issue in lakes and crowded harbors. The oceans themselves are nutrient poor. If you are in a lake or crowded harbor, there are likely pump-out facilities available to deal with waste. If you are not in a lake or crowded harbor, why worry about the nutrients? If anything, the nutrients are beneficial to the oceans. Pathogens have a life cycle adapted to survival outside the host and defenses against competition, which makes transmission and infection possible. Cold composting leaves many pathogens unaffected. Removing the energy from waste, but leaving the pathogens, to me this is mistreatment. It is no different than adding a stack to your compost, to carry the smell away from your boat, and deposit it on your neighbor. Composting works when it raises the temperature, sterilizing the end product. Bleach works because it adds chemical energy to the waste, also sterilizing the end product. It is an illusion to treat the energy in waste without treating the pathogens. Oxygen depletion doesn't send people to hospital. Pathogens released through cold composting do. If you are going to add bleach to the urine, why not add bleach to the feces as well? If you are adding bleach, do you really want to be dumping this into a lake or crowded harbor? Bleach also causes oxygen depletion does it not? Greg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting There are a number of different techniques for composting, all employing the two primary methods of aerobic composting: * Active (or hot) composting allows aerobic bacteria to thrive, kills most pathogens and seeds, and rapidly produces usable compost. Aerobic bacteria produce less odour and fewer destructive greenhouse gases than their anaerobic counterparts. In addition, they are usually faster at breaking down material and the faster material is broken down, the faster compost is created for your garden. Pasteurisation in a hot compost (such as the Compost Oven) will occur in any garden compost bin if the temperature reaches above 55 C (131°F) for three or more days. To achieve it, you need to keep your garden compost bin warm, insulated and damp since this encourages the cultivation of actinomycetes , a vital bacteria in the pasteurisation process. The pasteurised soil naturally created through heat in the garden compost is valuable for the composting home gardener, since the pasteurisation process is otherwise both expensive and complicated, and adding chemicals to produce the pasteurisation effect makes the compost less healthy. * Passive (or cold) composting allows Nature to take its course in a more leisurely manner, while leaving many pathogens and seeds dormant in the pile. Cold composting is the type of composting done in most domestic garden compost bins in which temperatures never reach above 30 C (86°F). Cold composting is characterised by individuals putting their kitchen scraps in the garden compost bin and leaving them untended. This "scrap bin," having a very high moisture content and without aeration, is likely to turn anaerobic and generate foul odours, including significant adverse greenhouse gas emissions. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 9:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements I think you are missing a couple of important things. Composting is just using bacteria to break the waste down. As time goes on the bacteria eat all the waste, higher level life forms (ciliates, rotifers, etc.) eat the bacteria and everything converts to nonvolatiles, solids with no energy content to support life. Human pathogens get eaten in this process because the conditions for their growth is all wrong. so that the composted material will have very little hazard. Composted material should be dumped on land where the process continues with plants using the material over again. The raw urine of course could still have many pathogens. However a small dose of chlorine will kill them dead, before you dump it. The reason dumping raw sewage is bad is not because of pathogens. It is because it is a huge food source for all kinds of organisms all of which rapidly consume all the available oxygen, needed by fish, plants etc. By the way, I am currently employed building high tech waste treatment systems, using ultrafilters and RO systems. Everything from PCB contaminated runoff from industrial landfills, to small residential community waste water. I'm still learning the biological processes, I've got a real nice microscope and an eyepiece camera if you'd like to see what we are talking about. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in SE > Asia. > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you not > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating up, you > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature sufficient to > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter when you > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to 1,000 > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 bacteria of > a > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. Infected > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > Bacteria Disease > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > Leptospira Leptospirosis > Yersinia Yersiniosis > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > Worms Disease > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, Ricki. > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > Greg > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > warms, if and when they are needed. > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > , paulcotter@... wrote: >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was considering > a afixing an >> automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > collect liquids - >> both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > contemplated running >> a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit when > its cold. >> >> Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > directly to crank on >> the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > together? >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > changed the >> > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > handle >> > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally when > not >> > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan to > put a >> > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no >> > unmixed parts . >> > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > for >> > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > it ,and it >> > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big dump.Now > to >> > find out how long the bottle lasts . >> > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > square >> > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help break >> > things up and mix better. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14274|14211|2007-09-13 22:21:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing|Boats that are balanced when lightly loaded can develop weather helm as you load them for cruising, as it takes more force to drive them, resulting in more heel, which moves the center of effort of the sails further away from the boat's centerline, increasing the weather helm. Boats that have a lee helm in light airs tend to develop a weather helm as the wind increases. Boats with a weather helm in light airs tend to develop even more weather helm as the wind increases. Helm can be further adjusted by sail shape and trim. As well, as sails age the draught tends to move aft, increasing weather helm. The only way to be sure is to sail the boat. As such, you may find the bowsprit works when heavily loaded, and the additional sail area down low can be welcome when cruising in the tropics, where light airs are often the rule. Perhaps the biggest advantage of the sprit is downwind. It can be hard to drive a boat without a sprit downwind without using a spinnaker or twin headsails, as the main tends to blanket the headsails. Having said that, there are lots of disadvantages in a sprit as well. As in just about everything on a boat, good points and bad. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Knut F Garshol Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing Alex (or may be Brent?), the boat sure looks exceptional on the pictures. Does anyone know anything about the mentioned sinking (or did I get that wrong)? What would be the potential problems to look out for if the hull has been submerged and then refitted? With the forestay on a bowsprit this is a modification to the normal BS design? Is that why they mention in the sales prospect that the keel has been modified (moved?)? Otherwise, I would assume the sail balance would get wrong and she would tend to fall off the wind rather than go up in the wind in a gust (not what you want). I would appreciate your view on this based on experience with the normal sail layout for the 36Â’ BS. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ALEX CHRISTIE Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:42 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing I see what you mean about the chine. It looks like they pulled the boat together, probably welded supports inside to keep the hull in shape, then replaced the hard chine with radiused pieces. I doubt there was any appreciable difference in over-all speed, but it looks purdy out of the water. Dolphins might admire that round chine too, which is important :p Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: renrut5 com> Date: Saturday, September 8, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Boat Listing To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > New listing of a 36' Brent Boat in San Diego. > > http://www.yachtwor ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=F eet> ld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id =1766002&checked_boats=1766002&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResult s.jsp%3Fblc%3D32735%26toPrice%3D79000%26type%3D%2528Sail%2529%26uom%3D126%26 hmid%3D103%26currency%3DUSD%26units%3DFeet%26duom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26wuom%3D12 6%26ywbtc%3D26490%26currencyid%3D100%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26toLen gth%3D45%26ps%3D30%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D35%26slim%3Dquick%26prc%3D41043% 26so%3D0%26n%3D1%253A1%253A27774%253A45252%253A75%26hmc%3D3409&searchtype= > > Is it my imagination or has the chine been modified? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14275|14187|2007-09-13 22:28:53|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Greg; That all sounds very positive and I applaud you for your efforts. When I first found your web site I read your artical about cruising and entered my name and email in response to your invitation to gain the knowledge as to how to finance such a venture. I noticed some time back here on the forum someone asked when they would receive the promised information; and you basically brushed them off. So I would like to ask you with all respect for your efforts; what information were you speaking of when you invited people to enter their details. I hope people don't read this as a distraction from the point of this forum; I see it as very pertinent, as I will need to finance my ventures sooner than later. Thank you pol. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My comments show: > > 1. I don't think you should be dumping your waste into harbors and lakes. > 2. I've got the practical sailing experience to support my ideas > > Your comments show: > > 1. You get disturbed and angry when faced with contrary opinions. > 2. Nothing gets some people more upset than when they are wrong and the > other guy is right. > > I'm all for advice when it has value. What has your advice done for you? > As I understand things you are living on an (old?) boat, tied to a dock for > quite some time. You have a poor credit rating, which typically means you > don't pay your bills, or have little or no assets or savings. That isn't > what I want. > > I started with zip, cruised for almost 20 years, and ended up with > everything paid for with plenty of assets and savings. According to what > you believe, this shouldn't be possible. So therefore I must be lying. > > I'm sailing 2 nights a week, with more available if I want. More than most > cruisers. I just came back from 2 weeks house boating in the Shuswap with > the wife, kids, dog, and a bunch of teenagers. I ski all winter, then back > to sailing. I'm living the life I want and my advice worked for me. > > I take a contrary position on many issues because to me that is the key to > breaking free of the ideas that keep you chained to the dock, the job, > poverty, whatever. More often than not, it is what people believe to be > true that limits them. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is > correct. > > Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand > simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being > spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the > former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, > continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are > definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't > know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > > > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > > this site. > > Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a > good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have > admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here > in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a > spammer. > > This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that > this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do > here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much > _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping > in here? > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14276|14187|2007-09-13 22:34:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Airhead improvements|On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 06:53:32PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > My comments show: > > 1. I don't think you should be dumping your waste into harbors and lakes. No, your comments show that you just want to argue - without any merit, without knowing anything about the issue beyond being able to look up some barely-relevant info on the Internet. Greg, you're the _last_ guy in the world who can claim that you want to protect the innocent public: you feed off the reputations of others without contributing anything of your own. > Your comments show: > > 1. You get disturbed and angry when faced with contrary opinions. [laugh] You've made that claim about everyone who's disagreed with your trolling. Angry? You're not important enough to make me angry. You're tiresome and annoying - no more than that. As to your "contrary" opinions, pissing in the common punch bowl does not make you a visionary or a revolutionary. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14277|14271|2007-09-13 22:52:39|audeojude|Re: Hydrostatic drive|I don't have any experience with hydrolic systems but a steel boat would be the easyiest of all to have a cooler on. just build in a cooler into the skeg or one of the keels that the oil flows through. The metal will transmit the heat to the water much better than any air exchange cooling system. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > > > > I had hoped someone with experience of hydraulic motors etc would chip in > with some advice. I am concerned about the heat. I've seen oil coolers on > the forklifts I've used so I assume the oil must get hot with all that > pumping. Driving a propeller shaft at 600 - 800 rpm shouldn't be too onerous > should it? Would the reservoir serve to lose what excess heat was generated? > > > > > I like the idea of being able to put the engine where I like and only have > to consider the placing of the motor. One can run the engine at a constant > speed and vary prop speed by controlling oil flow to the motor. A bit like > diesel electric in some respects. > > > > I have had a look at the engine. It is a horizontal twin Kubota and the > drive to the pump is with vee belts. The engine is very low so it would fit > any where easily. The sump is quite flat though so I wonder if at any heel > the engine would be starved of oil. I think this type of engine is used on > generators. > > > > Jonathan. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14278|14187|2007-09-13 23:04:55|ALEX CHRISTIE|All play nice! >:(|Hey, I'm without internet connection currently to keep tabs on all you rabble-rousers, so please stick to topic of origamiboats and no squabbling or I'll have to... I dunno! Grrr from the internet cafe Alex yer Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14279|14262|2007-09-13 23:12:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Introduction and History|Eduardo is correct in identifying the benefits of solving the tangent plane as a means of identifying the unique developable surface for each hull. It was a key step forward in our own work on the problem. I first did this in lotus 123 when I did the patterns for Mungo II, using the lines from the Lazy Bones as a starting point for the patterns. We were cruising Hawaii at the time. As I recall, it took the program all day to run on an early Toshiba notebook, as it stepped along the curves, solving the tangents. Once you have the tangents, you know these are straight lines. A diagonal between the tangents is also a straight line, at the limit ala calculus. So the hull reduces to a series of very small triangles, which can then be reassembled on the flat as the patterns for that specific hull. There are more tricks beyond this, but for a standard "Brent" style hull, this will give you dead on accurate patterns with no need to trim the overlap during assembly. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eduardo Mendes Dias Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History Seer, Gary, Sorry for interfering, but I'd like to say something. I have been reading your comments about surfaces used to build origami boats, and the attempt to model them using rhino software. The problem is that those surfaces are neither cones nor cylinders. There is a more general type of developable surface. The main difference is that for the general type two adjacent generatrices of the surface are not coplanar, as they are in cones and cylinders( you don't have vorteces to work with). It is the most general flatable (foldable) surface known, and it can represent all the shapes you may obtain when folding a sheet of paper. You may represent it using tangents to the directrix curves. Indeed, if you have two 3d continuous curves, toghether with the first derivative, then you have one and only one developable surface that match (contains) those curves. So, to represent it, you must find a plane which is tangent to both curves. It will be tangent to the surface throught a generatrix. And every point of the surface contains one and only one generatrix, unless the surface is flat. Those curves may be the longitudinal profile of the boat (stem and stern), or the deck curve, or the chine. After drawing sucessive generatrixes you may then cut them to obtain sections: transversal, longitudinal or horizontal sections. When the surface becomes geometrically impossible, it produces a regression edge, which is the chine edge. regards eduardo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14280|14271|2007-09-14 01:12:19|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Hydrostatic drive|They all heat up to some extent and cooling as stated below is a good way. Restricting flow to controle speed, valving and undersize lines cause the most heat. The biggest problem is hydrostatic drives are VERY ineficent and you will burn more fuel then a transmission direct drive. You can easly lose 30% of you range for fuel use. A car automatic transmission would be better then a hydro pump and motor set up. Another thing is no one has seen a hydrolic system that didn't leak sometime somewhere. Then there is the hose that breaks. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > I don't have any experience with hydrolic systems but a steel boat > would be the easyiest of all to have a cooler on. just build in a > cooler into the skeg or one of the keels that the oil flows through. > The metal will transmit the heat to the water much better than any air > exchange cooling system. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" > wrote: > > > > > > > > I had hoped someone with experience of hydraulic motors etc would > chip in > > with some advice. I am concerned about the heat. I've seen oil > coolers on > > the forklifts I've used so I assume the oil must get hot with all that > > pumping. Driving a propeller shaft at 600 - 800 rpm shouldn't be too > onerous > > should it? Would the reservoir serve to lose what excess heat was > generated? > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of being able to put the engine where I like and > only have > > to consider the placing of the motor. One can run the engine at a > constant > > speed and vary prop speed by controlling oil flow to the motor. A > bit like > > diesel electric in some respects. > > > > > > > > I have had a look at the engine. It is a horizontal twin Kubota and the > > drive to the pump is with vee belts. The engine is very low so it > would fit > > any where easily. The sump is quite flat though so I wonder if at > any heel > > the engine would be starved of oil. I think this type of engine is > used on > > generators. > > > > > > > > Jonathan. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14281|14187|2007-09-14 02:09:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|When I get receive enough names to make it profitable, I'll set aside the time to write the full story. Until then read the past postings. In general here is what worked for me: 1. work and study hard. 2. develop skills that can be used to earn money while cruising 3. get a great credit rating by using credit and paying your bills 4. buy value, not flash. learn to live on a budget. 5. borrow money to buy a house 6. use the house to attract a great life partner that shares your goals 7. rent the house out to cover the mortgage 8. borrow money to buy a boat 9. cruise locally, use the boat to eliminate expenses, gain experience 10. pay off the boat - asap 11. sail to remote places where expats are in demand, start a family 12. work in the off season - pay off the house - asap 13. once the house is paid for, the rent goes in your pocket. save the money big time. 14. return once you have enough money saved 15. be patient and persistent. It took me many years to get to 14, with many set backs along the way. As a general rule, I never borrow money to buy anything, unless there is a way that I can make money doing so. I'll borrow money to buy a car to get a contract (which will make the payments), but I won't borrow money to buy a big screen TV or take a vacation, for example. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Greg; That all sounds very positive and I applaud you for your efforts. When I first found your web site I read your artical about cruising and entered my name and email in response to your invitation to gain the knowledge as to how to finance such a venture. I noticed some time back here on the forum someone asked when they would receive the promised information; and you basically brushed them off. So I would like to ask you with all respect for your efforts; what information were you speaking of when you invited people to enter their details. I hope people don't read this as a distraction from the point of this forum; I see it as very pertinent, as I will need to finance my ventures sooner than later. Thank you pol. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My comments show: > > 1. I don't think you should be dumping your waste into harbors and lakes. > 2. I've got the practical sailing experience to support my ideas > > Your comments show: > > 1. You get disturbed and angry when faced with contrary opinions. > 2. Nothing gets some people more upset than when they are wrong and the > other guy is right. > > I'm all for advice when it has value. What has your advice done for you? > As I understand things you are living on an (old?) boat, tied to a dock for > quite some time. You have a poor credit rating, which typically means you > don't pay your bills, or have little or no assets or savings. That isn't > what I want. > > I started with zip, cruised for almost 20 years, and ended up with > everything paid for with plenty of assets and savings. According to what > you believe, this shouldn't be possible. So therefore I must be lying. > > I'm sailing 2 nights a week, with more available if I want. More than most > cruisers. I just came back from 2 weeks house boating in the Shuswap with > the wife, kids, dog, and a bunch of teenagers. I ski all winter, then back > to sailing. I'm living the life I want and my advice worked for me. > > I take a contrary position on many issues because to me that is the key to > breaking free of the ideas that keep you chained to the dock, the job, > poverty, whatever. More often than not, it is what people believe to be > true that limits them. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:53 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is > correct. > > Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand > simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being > spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the > former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, > continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are > definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't > know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > > > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > > this site. > > Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a > good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have > admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here > in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a > spammer. > > This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that > this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do > here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much > _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping > in here? > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14282|14187|2007-09-14 02:16:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|ps: When I say I don't use credit to buy things, that isn't exactly correct. I buy EVERYTHING using credit cards and pay it off before the interest is due. The credit card companies loan me money for a couple of weeks and I pay nothing for this. In return I build a great credit rating and am always being offered new cards and low rates. I almost never use cash and would never use a debit card. I use only no fee cards, and have more than a few. I know how much I spend and where from my credit card statements, which makes it easy to budget and gives me plenty of ammo for deductions come tax time. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 7:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Greg; That all sounds very positive and I applaud you for your efforts. When I first found your web site I read your artical about cruising and entered my name and email in response to your invitation to gain the knowledge as to how to finance such a venture. I noticed some time back here on the forum someone asked when they would receive the promised information; and you basically brushed them off. So I would like to ask you with all respect for your efforts; what information were you speaking of when you invited people to enter their details. I hope people don't read this as a distraction from the point of this forum; I see it as very pertinent, as I will need to finance my ventures sooner than later. Thank you pol. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My comments show: > > 1. I don't think you should be dumping your waste into harbors and lakes. > 2. I've got the practical sailing experience to support my ideas > > Your comments show: > > 1. You get disturbed and angry when faced with contrary opinions. > 2. Nothing gets some people more upset than when they are wrong and the > other guy is right. > > I'm all for advice when it has value. What has your advice done for you? > As I understand things you are living on an (old?) boat, tied to a dock for > quite some time. You have a poor credit rating, which typically means you > don't pay your bills, or have little or no assets or savings. That isn't > what I want. > > I started with zip, cruised for almost 20 years, and ended up with > everything paid for with plenty of assets and savings. According to what > you believe, this shouldn't be possible. So therefore I must be lying. > > I'm sailing 2 nights a week, with more available if I want. More than most > cruisers. I just came back from 2 weeks house boating in the Shuswap with > the wife, kids, dog, and a bunch of teenagers. I ski all winter, then back > to sailing. I'm living the life I want and my advice worked for me. > > I take a contrary position on many issues because to me that is the key to > breaking free of the ideas that keep you chained to the dock, the job, > poverty, whatever. More often than not, it is what people believe to be > true that limits them. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:53 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 01:34:00PM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > Ben, I always welcome your comments. Any time someone argues against the > > speaker, rather than against the message, it is a sure sign who is > correct. > > Greg, your comment shows one of two things: either you don't understand > simple conversation, or you're trying to lie your way out of being > spotlighted for what you are. On the miniscule off-chance that it is the > former, I'll explain what you've missed: since you claim - loudly, > continually, and obnoxiosly - to have competence in this area, you are > definitely a valid target for an /ad-hominem/ argument. If you don't > know what that is, I suggest you consult a dictionary. > > > Lundstrom has a prior claim to origami that is conveniently overlooked on > > this site. > > Lundstrom isn't here, trying to undermine the work and the ability of a > good man; therefore, I have no quarrel with him. You are - and you have > admitted to me, in email, that you like to disturb and anger people here > in order to drive business to your site. This makes you a troll and a > spammer. > > This is why I keep exposing your games, Greg. You might even say that > this is pertinent to the present discussion - since all I'm trying to do > here is eliminate parasites from my environment. I wonder how much > _your_ kids would enjoy consuming the kind of crap that you keep dumping > in here? > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET> .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14283|14187|2007-09-14 02:21:17|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Thank you Greg. That is a good outline of your plan and one that I feel many could use to advantage. Now if I was at that end of my life....... But then a new young wife, joy of kids again and adventures. hmmmm sounds enticing later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > When I get receive enough names to make it profitable, I'll set aside the > time to write the full story. Until then read the past postings. > > In general here is what worked for me: > > 1. work and study hard. > 2. develop skills that can be used to earn money while cruising > 3. get a great credit rating by using credit and paying your bills > 4. buy value, not flash. learn to live on a budget. > 5. borrow money to buy a house > 6. use the house to attract a great life partner that shares your goals > 7. rent the house out to cover the mortgage > 8. borrow money to buy a boat > 9. cruise locally, use the boat to eliminate expenses, gain experience > 10. pay off the boat - asap > 11. sail to remote places where expats are in demand, start a family > 12. work in the off season - pay off the house - asap > 13. once the house is paid for, the rent goes in your pocket. save the > money big time. > 14. return once you have enough money saved > 15. be patient and persistent. It took me many years to get to 14, with > many set backs along the way. > > As a general rule, I never borrow money to buy anything, unless there is a > way that I can make money doing so. I'll borrow money to buy a car to get a > contract (which will make the payments), but I won't borrow money to buy a > big screen TV or take a vacation, for example. > > Greg | 14284|14187|2007-09-14 02:41:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to speak. $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the whole 9 yards. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Thank you Greg. That is a good outline of your plan and one that I feel many could use to advantage. Now if I was at that end of my life....... But then a new young wife, joy of kids again and adventures. hmmmm sounds enticing later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > When I get receive enough names to make it profitable, I'll set aside the > time to write the full story. Until then read the past postings. > > In general here is what worked for me: > > 1. work and study hard. > 2. develop skills that can be used to earn money while cruising > 3. get a great credit rating by using credit and paying your bills > 4. buy value, not flash. learn to live on a budget. > 5. borrow money to buy a house > 6. use the house to attract a great life partner that shares your goals > 7. rent the house out to cover the mortgage > 8. borrow money to buy a boat > 9. cruise locally, use the boat to eliminate expenses, gain experience > 10. pay off the boat - asap > 11. sail to remote places where expats are in demand, start a family > 12. work in the off season - pay off the house - asap > 13. once the house is paid for, the rent goes in your pocket. save the > money big time. > 14. return once you have enough money saved > 15. be patient and persistent. It took me many years to get to 14, with > many set backs along the way. > > As a general rule, I never borrow money to buy anything, unless there is a > way that I can make money doing so. I'll borrow money to buy a car to get a > contract (which will make the payments), but I won't borrow money to buy a > big screen TV or take a vacation, for example. > > Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14285|14271|2007-09-14 02:47:50|David A. Frantz|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Hi Jonathan; I can't comment on Marine usage but do have a bit of industrial experience with hydraulic systems. First let me say that there seems to be an unlimited number of pumps and motors available. I've seem some very large hyd. motors on industrial plastic injection molding equipment, with them easily running t up to around 300 RPM. These where high torque motors and I really don't know their maximum RPM. The problem with hydraulics in the plastics industry is the cost of the energy used to run the equipment. The difference between hydraulics and electrics has resulted in a good portion of the industry switching over to all electric machines. Almost all hydraulic systems, of any capacity have heat exchangers cooling the oil. It is not simply cooling either, ideally oil temperature is kept constant. There might be some potential in an oil reservoir in a keel or in contact with the hull but I'd advise against it. That mostly due to the issue of regulating the oil temp. As to the idea of engine positioning that is a very useful goal to achieve. It may be perfectly acceptable for thrusters and other auxiliary powered systems but I think it would be a loosing game for energy usage for a primary drive. The only way you would get efficiency and constant engine sped would be to use variable displacement pump. Trying to control oil flow to the motor on a system with a fixed displacement pump involves considerable energy waste. By the way hydraulics isn't cheap either. I've missed earlier parts of this thread but if you already have the hydraulic power packs, it would be worth investigating what it would take to convert the units for marine duty. Hydraulics could be useful for a number on things on a boat. Thrusters as mentioned, winches and rudder positioning come to mind right away. On the other hand room is room and I think you would get more for you money with an electric system. Dave Jonathan Stevens wrote: > > > > I had hoped someone with experience of hydraulic motors etc would chip in > with some advice. I am concerned about the heat. I've seen oil coolers on > the forklifts I've used so I assume the oil must get hot with all that > pumping. Driving a propeller shaft at 600 - 800 rpm shouldn't be too > onerous > should it? Would the reservoir serve to lose what excess heat was > generated? > > I like the idea of being able to put the engine where I like and only have > to consider the placing of the motor. One can run the engine at a constant > speed and vary prop speed by controlling oil flow to the motor. A bit like > diesel electric in some respects. > > I have had a look at the engine. It is a horizontal twin Kubota and the > drive to the pump is with vee belts. The engine is very low so it > would fit > any where easily. The sump is quite flat though so I wonder if at any heel > the engine would be starved of oil. I think this type of engine is used on > generators. > > Jonathan. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14286|14187|2007-09-14 02:48:21|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to speak. > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the whole 9 > yards. > > Greg . | 14287|14187|2007-09-14 03:00:07|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Garry; Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some other microbial life that is benificial to the process. If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other mediums with successs. I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all get on with positive inputs and attitudes. How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for what and who they are. period. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! > > Gary H. Lucas | 14288|14264|2007-09-14 05:48:49|sae140|Re: propllor shaft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > Hi Eduardo Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of late, so I'll have a go ... 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free solution to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to develop a leak. But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly destroy a lip-seal. The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis (and to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a view shared by this forum's inmates .... Colin| 14289|14262|2007-09-14 10:57:57|David A. Frantz|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Introduction and History|I'm going to digest this a bit, but I must ask do you have references on the web someplace or know of such that goes into detail. Hopefully that detail includes pictures or drawings. Dave Eduardo Mendes Dias wrote: > > Seer, Gary, > Sorry for interfering, but I'd like to say something. > I have been reading your comments about surfaces used to build origami > boats, and the attempt to model them using rhino software. > The problem is that those surfaces are neither cones nor cylinders. > There is a more general type of developable surface. > The main difference is that for the general type two adjacent > generatrices > of the surface are not coplanar, as they are in cones and cylinders( you > don't have vorteces to work with). > It is the most general flatable (foldable) surface known, and it can > represent all the shapes you may obtain when folding a sheet of paper. > You may represent it using tangents to the directrix curves. Indeed, > if you > have two 3d continuous curves, toghether with the first derivative, then > you have one and only one developable surface that match (contains) those > curves. So, to represent it, you must find a plane which is tangent to > both > curves. It will be tangent to the surface throught a generatrix. And > every > point of the surface contains one and only one generatrix, unless the > surface is flat. > Those curves may be the longitudinal profile of the boat (stem and > stern), > or the deck curve, or the chine. After drawing sucessive generatrixes you > may then cut them to obtain sections: transversal, longitudinal or > horizontal sections. > When the surface becomes geometrically impossible, it produces a > regression > edge, which is the chine edge. regards > eduardo > > | 14290|14187|2007-09-14 12:46:47|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Regarding hatchets: WELL PUT! NOTHING TO ADD. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Garry; Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some other microbial life that is benificial to the process. If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other mediums with successs. I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all get on with positive inputs and attitudes. How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for what and who they are. period. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! > > Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14291|14271|2007-09-14 13:33:39|jonathanswef|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Thanks all for your thoughts. The efficiency thing is the biggest downer I think. I haven't made the purchase yet and I don't think I will. Plan A was a shiny new engine from Beta marine, I'll just have to save up for a little longer. Jonathan.| 14292|14072|2007-09-14 13:39:12|jonathanswef|Re: Eighteen: 6011|Thanks Wesley, I do tend to do that dragging to get rid of the excess. I am a bit wary of upping the amps anymore for fear of it being too hot for my speed of working. I guess what I need to do is just keep trying until everything clicks. I may say I get excellent welds on nice test pieces, it is on the job where it matters I have trouble! Jonathan.| 14293|14293|2007-09-14 14:50:17|tomjlee2000|(1) - AMIGOS//-whereabouts of idefix-36'BB// - ( 2) "VISKI"-book|-AMIGOS- (1) Any one know the whereabouts of "idefix" a 36'B-Boat? Was in Newport,Oregon last September (approx). (2) "Viski" voyage and book. Sources for purchase? -K I S-| 14294|14271|2007-09-14 14:57:50|Carl Anderson|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Jonathan, You might consider a marinized Isuzu as an alternative to the Beta. I looked at the Beta but decided on the Isuzu after considering where I will be primarily boating and where the "marinizing" is done. I'm in the northwest so having an engine that is marinized locally was a better idea than having the marinizing parts come from the UK. Its a parts supply issue is all. Carl ps, I love the "Suzie" as the engines are called jonathanswef wrote: > > > Thanks all for your thoughts. The efficiency thing is the biggest > downer I think. I haven't made the purchase yet and I don't think I > will. Plan A was a shiny new engine from Beta marine, I'll just have > to save up for a little longer. > Jonathan. > > | 14295|14293|2007-09-14 15:05:17|Carl Anderson|Re: (1) - AMIGOS//-whereabouts of idefix-36'BB// - ( 2) "VISKI"-bo|Tom, Idefix IV is sailing in the Sea of Cortez (Mexican waters) as of the last email from Freddie. No idea on the book. Carl tomjlee2000 wrote: > > > > > -AMIGOS- > > (1) Any one know the whereabouts of "idefix" > > a 36'B-Boat? > > Was in Newport,Oregon last September (approx). > > (2) "Viski" voyage and book. Sources for purchase? > > -K I S- > > | 14296|14271|2007-09-14 15:37:39|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Hydrostatic drive|[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14297|14271|2007-09-14 15:52:14|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Hi, i live on a narrowboat and worked as a millwright for forty years. My comments on hydraulic drives are based on this back ground. The main advantage of hydraulic systems is that the drive/pump unit can be placed any were a pipe can reach. On some boats the whole unit is placed on a cradle that allows the unit to be pulled out for any servicing / repair. Most systems run with the engine at a constant speed, the pump out put controlling the revs of prop. we only travel at 4 mph so no real strain. If i was building a new narrowboat this sort of power would be high on my list,the only down side is the danger of a burst pipe. Oil can be very messy. On a deferent note i have just returned from a holiday in Horta in the Azores i am sure there was a boat such as you build but in grey primer and no name. Saw a boat called "Pink Gin" nice weekend boat lol. Regards to all Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14298|14187|2007-09-14 16:22:50|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|Philippine Islands, I was there 3 years ago. The day wage at the time was $5 for skilled labor, beer was $.50 in the bars and a "full service" live aboard boat girl ran about $50/month. I heard a few months ago the day wage had risen to $8. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to speak. > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the whole 9 > yards. > > Greg . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14299|14293|2007-09-14 16:25:19|brentswain38|Re: (1) - AMIGOS//-whereabouts of idefix-36'BB// - ( 2) "VISKI"-bo|Harbour Chandlery in Nanaimo has the book"Around the World on Viski " Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tomjlee2000" wrote: > > > > -AMIGOS- > > (1) Any one know the whereabouts of "idefix" > > a 36'B-Boat? > > Was in Newport,Oregon last September (approx). > > (2) "Viski" voyage and book. Sources for purchase? > > > -K I S- > | 14300|14264|2007-09-14 16:41:31|brentswain38|Re: propllor shaft|Sorry I missed your question. I've seen the ball bearing - oil seal arrangement you suggest at the Vancouver boat show many years ago, for modern commercial boats like tugs etc. I've thought about trying it, but never have nor do I know anybody who has. I can't see why it wouldn't work. it obviously has in the past. I wouldn't rely on epoxy sticking to a mild steel shaft, but welding a section of sch 40 stailess pipe over the inboard end including that which the suffing box bears on could work . Of course you would have to machine the surface of the stainless after the welding was done. Outside the zincs could offer enough protection, especially if the prop was stainless. Mild steel prop shafts are common on tugs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > late, so I'll have a go ... > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free solution > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > develop a leak. > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly destroy > a lip-seal. > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis (and > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a view > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > Colin > | 14301|14072|2007-09-14 16:50:02|brentswain38|Re: Eighteen|Look at the end of the rod. If the metal sticks out beyond the flux , it needs to be dragged a bit , until the flux sticks out well beyond the steel rod, and the end of the rod is deep inside the flux.. This stops the steel from contacting the surface . You can hear the change of sound when the rod is burned up well inside the flux. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > You might not be giving it enough juice. Once you have the heat right, it's just a matter of practice. A trick I use if I can see too much metal bead at the end of a rod and not enough flux, caused by sticking or too long of an arc before it last broke and causing a PITA re-start, is to drag the rod on the work piece at about a 20-30 degree angle, very shallow, 2" or so and repeat. It burns off the excess filler metal protruding too far beyond the flux without sticking again, quickly making the rod start an arc smoother than when new. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jonathanswef > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:29 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen > > > Well I've continued in my endeavours. The fore deck is on as are the > side decks and one of the stern decks and the foot well. I hope to get > the port stern deck in tomorrow. I then have the front end of the foot > well to fit and I can get on with the pilot house. > I have found the 6011 rods much more difficult to use than the 6013 > and 7024. When I strike successfully it is terrific until I break the > arc to move on to another stitch and then I struggle to get it going > again. I have found downhand on vertical bits much easier than uphand. > I will keep trying but any hints from the pros are welcome. > I've been offered this Kubota horizontal engine with hydraulic pump > and motors; I'm a little uncertain as on a tractor or forklift there > is usually an oil cooler to shed the waste heat, I don't quite see > where and how I could rig that on my little boat. I love the idea of > being able to put the engine flat and wherever I chose rather than in > line with the stern tube though... > Jonathan. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.13/998 - Release Date: 9/10/2007 8:48 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14302|14271|2007-09-14 21:37:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Hydrostatic drive|I have an Isuzu which was marinized by Klassen Diesels and have been very happy with it. It is more of an industrial engine and seems more heavy-duty than a lot of the other diesels in my opinion. The exhaust manifold is made from welded steel tubing and can be re-welded and repaired anywhere. Cheers,Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:55:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hydrostatic drive Jonathan, You might consider a marinized Isuzu as an alternative to the Beta. I looked at the Beta but decided on the Isuzu after considering where I will be primarily boating and where the "marinizing" is done. I'm in the northwest so having an engine that is marinized locally was a better idea than having the marinizing parts come from the UK. Its a parts supply issue is all. Carl ps, I love the "Suzie" as the engines are called jonathanswef wrote: > > > Thanks all for your thoughts. The efficiency thing is the biggest > downer I think. I haven't made the purchase yet and I don't think I > will. Plan A was a shiny new engine from Beta marine, I'll just have > to save up for a little longer. > Jonathan. > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14303|14264|2007-09-14 21:47:29|Paul Wilson|Re: propllor shaft|Hi Colin, If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this but I can't confirm. Thanks, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > Hi Eduardo Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of late, so I'll have a go ... 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free solution to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to develop a leak. But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly destroy a lip-seal. The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis (and to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a view shared by this forum's inmates .... Colin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14304|14264|2007-09-14 22:08:41|polaris041|Re: propllor shaft|You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from standard proven procedures. Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco.com.au/ are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive conditions, you can't go passed them. As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to replace it in the water. Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those properties. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this but I can't confirm. > > Thanks, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > late, so I'll have a go ... > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free solution > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > develop a leak. > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly destroy > a lip-seal. > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis (and > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a view > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > Colin > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14305|14264|2007-09-14 22:37:12|seeratlas|Re: propllor shaft|Don't know that I'd go all the way to 'fail safe' on a 'traditional stuffing box'...many a ship has gone down due to a failure there, tho mostly neglected dock queens at their berths I suppose... Maybe a 'properly inspected and routinely maintained' stuffing box could be considered 'failsafe' to the degree that anything on board a ship qualifies for that moniker :) don't mind me, just splittin hairs LOL :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco.com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > develop a leak. > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy > > a lip-seal. > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14306|14187|2007-09-14 22:45:28|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Sorry pol, that burying the hatchet stuff is not likely to work anytime soon. :) LOL, everyone seems to be good at burying them, except for leaving that wee bit of the handle stickin out just in case :) heheheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Garry; > Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some > other microbial life that is benificial to the process. > > If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other > mediums with successs. > > I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically > about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those > living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. > > I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; > and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send > them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. > > I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all > get on with positive inputs and attitudes. > > How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what > ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for > what and who they are. period. > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs > primarily > > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. > Peat moss > > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my > previous > > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines > to break > > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding > flats. I > > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants > get > > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat > moss to > > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that > traveled > > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on > the peat > > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat > moss won't > > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't > peat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > | 14307|14271|2007-09-14 22:54:50|seeratlas|Re: Hydrostatic drive|-will second the isuzu with ONE big caveat. do NOT run a heat exchanger on one unless you like replacing them. Used a closed system with a keel cooler and the things will run a veery very long time. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Jonathan, > > You might consider a marinized Isuzu as an alternative to the Beta. > I looked at the Beta but decided on the Isuzu after considering where I > will be primarily boating and where the "marinizing" is done. > I'm in the northwest so having an engine that is marinized locally was a > better idea than having the marinizing parts come from the UK. > Its a parts supply issue is all. > > Carl > > ps, I love the "Suzie" as the engines are called > > jonathanswef wrote: > > > > > > Thanks all for your thoughts. The efficiency thing is the biggest > > downer I think. I haven't made the purchase yet and I don't think I > > will. Plan A was a shiny new engine from Beta marine, I'll just have > > to save up for a little longer. > > Jonathan. > > > > > | 14308|14271|2007-09-14 22:59:59|seeratlas|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Mike, have a question for you. I had very good experience with hydraulic steering on my 54, and the big wagner autopilot my brother added for me saved my bacon. My question is 1. what would you guesstimate as the expected life of a 'std' system as is usually installed these days, in normal service, and 2. Are there relatively inexpensive things you can do during initial installation that would return substantial bang for buck regarding that longevity? thanx in advance seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, BrdbMc@... wrote: > > Hi, > i live on a narrowboat and worked as a millwright for forty years. My > comments on hydraulic drives are based on this back ground. The main advantage > of hydraulic systems is that the drive/pump unit can be > placed any were a pipe can reach. > On some boats the whole unit is placed on a cradle that allows the unit > to be pulled out for any servicing / repair. Most systems run with the engine > at a constant speed, the pump out put controlling the revs of prop. we only > travel at 4 mph so no real strain. > If i was building a new narrowboat this sort of power would be high on my > list,the only down side is the danger of a burst pipe. Oil can be very messy. > On a deferent note i have just returned from a holiday in Horta in the > Azores i am sure there was a boat such as you build but in grey primer and no > name. Saw a boat called "Pink Gin" nice weekend boat lol. > > Regards to all > Mikeafloat > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14309|14264|2007-09-15 00:26:56|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: propllor shaft|Many newer systems use a ceramic grafite snaft seal much like the ones used in high presher water pumps. they have a short breakin period and last a long time. Jon| 14310|14271|2007-09-15 01:55:22|David A. Frantz|Re: Hydrostatic drive|Hydraulic systems on machine tools generally run 24/7 for years. That is if they are well engineered. The absolute most important thing with respect to hydraulic systems in my experience is filtration of the oil. In fact it would be worth while to have the oil professionally analyzed to help determine what is really going on with your system. Maintenance of the oil is of course an on going thing. From the installation standpoint you want to make sure that the tank and filters are easily accessible. Filters have to be changed based on run time, but even the tank should be PM'ed from time to time. The big problem on a boat is determining good maintenance intervals due to the intermittent run time. Life expectancy is difficult to determine as there are many things that come into play. The selected operating pressure and duty cycle affect things. The type of pump chosen can impact the system. I suspect that you would want some sort of variable displacement pump if efficiency is an issue, that is more of a maintenance headache than a fixed displacement pump. Much larger expense too and maybe not required. If the hydraulics are used for thrusters and occasional propulsion then you might be better off with the simplest system possible and eat efficiency. I've seen hydraulic pumps last for as little as two years to far longer, maybe 10, this in 24/7 heavy industrial usage. You can always look on the Parker, Vickers or other web site to see what is available technology wise. AS far as marine systems frankly I'm not sure if there is a specialist here or not. Be prepared for expenses that you might not have thought about. For example every hose, pipe and fitting have to be rated for the pressure you run the system at. This means buying steel fittings an hydraulic tubing that can be significantly more expensive than schedule 40 pipe. The biggest negative is the leaks you get with hydraulics. Someone has already mentioned this but it is worth repeating. Dave P.S. ONE IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP: NEVER - I REPEAT NEVER LOOK FOR A HYDRAULIC LEAK WITH YOUR HANDS OR OTHER BODY PARTS. THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. What happens is this the hydraulic leak sprays out, often in a tiny stream, this stream will instantly penetrate the skin and actually pump oil into your body under the skin. If the stream size is of the right pressure and diameter it can also cut off things you would like to keep. In one case I know of locally the "body part" had to be literally skinned back so that the oil could be removed from the body. That as an alternative to cutting off, either way turns one stomach to think about it. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > Mike, have a question for you. I had very good experience with > hydraulic steering on my 54, and the big wagner autopilot my brother > added for me saved my bacon. My question is 1. what would you > guesstimate as the expected life of a 'std' system as is usually > installed these days, in normal service, and 2. Are there relatively > inexpensive things you can do during initial installation that would > return substantial bang for buck regarding that longevity? > thanx in advance > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , BrdbMc@... wrote: > > > > Hi, > > i live on a narrowboat and worked as a millwright for forty > years. My > > comments on hydraulic drives are based on this back ground. The > main advantage > > of hydraulic systems is that the drive/pump unit can be > > placed any were a pipe can reach. > > On some boats the whole unit is placed on a cradle that allows > the unit > > to be pulled out for any servicing / repair. Most systems run with > the engine > > at a constant speed, the pump out put controlling the revs of prop. > we only > > travel at 4 mph so no real strain. > > If i was building a new narrowboat this sort of power would be > high on my > > list,the only down side is the danger of a burst pipe. Oil can be > very messy. > > On a deferent note i have just returned from a holiday in Horta in > the > > Azores i am sure there was a boat such as you build but in grey > primer and no > > name. Saw a boat called "Pink Gin" nice weekend boat lol. > > > > Regards to all > > Mikeafloat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 14311|14263|2007-09-15 02:47:57|Paul Wilson|Re: propellor shaft|I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from standard proven procedures. Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive conditions, you can't go passed them. As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to replace it in the water. Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those properties. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this but I can't confirm. > > Thanks, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor shaft on > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil could be > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought avoiding to > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, would > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an epoxy > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > late, so I'll have a go ... > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free solution > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > develop a leak. > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly destroy > a lip-seal. > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis (and > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a view > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > Colin > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14312|14187|2007-09-15 03:26:26|Denis Buggy|Re: Airhead improvements|to all , most people on this site are a cut above the avarage even those who indulge in petty bickering . i have just read how to improve your boat while hiring the poor to do it while you screw their sister -child as they improve the smell of shit you excrete in the process, there is a smell of shit from this site which has wafted from canada to ireland and engineering will not cure it . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Philippine Islands, I was there 3 years ago. The day wage at the time was $5 for skilled labor, beer was $.50 in the bars and a "full service" live aboard boat girl ran about $50/month. I heard a few months ago the day wage had risen to $8. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to speak. > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the whole 9 > yards. > > Greg . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14313|14263|2007-09-15 04:07:08|polaris041|Re: propellor shaft|If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as force water into your stern tube. If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a flexible drive http://tinyurl.com/2wgx75 something like this python drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the shaft from the motor. Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against sinking. OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat if you are relying on a rubber seal. I don't mind if you want to take that chance. I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work for you. No problems. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > develop a leak. > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy > > a lip-seal. > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14314|14187|2007-09-15 04:16:26|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Get used to it brother; Most of the items you purchase even in Ireland are made in 3rd word countries by people who are paid a lot less than you. That is why your standard of living is so high. And yes; it dosn't matter whose sister it is; sex is a reality, that's how come we are all here. I don't see why people here are a cut above anything, we are all just people doing our own thing And shit; yes that's a reality too. So what is your point? later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > to all , most people on this site are a cut above the avarage even those who indulge in petty bickering . > i have just read how to improve your boat while hiring the poor to do it while you screw their sister -child as they improve the smell of shit you excrete in the process, > there is a smell of shit from this site which has wafted from canada to ireland and engineering will not cure it . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:22 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > Philippine Islands, > > I was there 3 years ago. The day wage at the time was $5 for skilled labor, > beer was $.50 in the bars and a "full service" live aboard boat girl ran > about $50/month. I heard a few months ago the day wage had risen to $8. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of polaris041 > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to > speak. > > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the > whole 9 > > yards. > > > > Greg > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14315|14263|2007-09-15 09:04:55|Gary H. Lucas|Re: propellor shaft|There are lots of very good reasons why stuffing boxes have virtually disappeared from the pump market. Mechanical seals have simply gotten so much better, and cheaper too. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft >I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the >stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short >piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 >years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to >explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is >pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that >the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get >rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: >> >> Hi Colin, >> >> If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: sae140 >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft >> >> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: >> > >> > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on >> > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be >> > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to >> > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would >> > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy >> > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo >> > >> > >> >> Hi Eduardo >> Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of >> late, so I'll have a go ... >> >> 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will >> certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution >> to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small >> elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to >> develop a leak. >> >> But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. >> >> It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the >> shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy >> a lip-seal. >> >> The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep >> everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and >> to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view >> shared by this forum's inmates .... >> >> Colin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ >> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. >> http://farechase. yahoo.com/ >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14316|14187|2007-09-15 09:27:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present at all times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The bacteria are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste water from the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, but huge amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That permeate goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a specific kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the bioreactor. I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the microscope. It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, still has only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because this waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Garry; Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some other microbial life that is benificial to the process. If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other mediums with successs. I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all get on with positive inputs and attitudes. How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for what and who they are. period. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! > > Gary H. Lucas | 14317|14264|2007-09-15 09:39:58|sae140|Re: propllor shaft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this but I can't confirm. > > Thanks, Paul > Hi Paul Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or drive axle). I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust bearing. With that set-up, there are then several options available: a conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then - they probably think I'm daft too Colin| 14318|14263|2007-09-15 09:52:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: propellor shaft|On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 11:47:50PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the > stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a > short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now > in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so > would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. > The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with > your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it > would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can > be done cheaply and safely. I've been using PSS shaft seals for years now - I had one on my previous boat, and liked it so much that I installed one on "Ulysses" during the first haul-out. After the initial break-in period (a day or so), I don't have so much as a drop of water in my bilge. http://www.shaftseal.com/ In short, it's a graphite surface that spins (and thus seals, by filling in any imperfections) against a stainless one. I inspect it about once a year - all the working parts are visible from the outside - to make sure that the corrugated hose is in good shape, and that's it. Just knowing that I'll never have to use a packing removal tool again is well worth the $200-some bucks to me. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14319|14263|2007-09-15 10:56:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: propellor shaft|Ben, Actually graphite is used in seals because it doesn't need lubrication. Mechanical seals seal by being lapped absolutely flat. They are so flat that putting them together clean and dry they will be hard to separate, from the vacuum alone. It's kind of funny but the problem with mechanical seals is not that they leak, but that they don't leak, so they don't get lubrication. Stuffing boxes of course have the same problem. If they don't drip while running then they quickly wear and you get a leak not a drip. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 11:47:50PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: >> I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the >> stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a >> short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now >> in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so >> would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. >> The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with >> your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it >> would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can >> be done cheaply and safely. > > I've been using PSS shaft seals for years now - I had one on my previous > boat, and liked it so much that I installed one on "Ulysses" during the > first haul-out. After the initial break-in period (a day or so), I don't > have so much as a drop of water in my bilge. > > http://www.shaftseal.com/ > > In short, it's a graphite surface that spins (and thus seals, by filling > in any imperfections) against a stainless one. I inspect it about once a > year - all the working parts are visible from the outside - to make sure > that the corrugated hose is in good shape, and that's it. > > Just knowing that I'll never have to use a packing removal tool again is > well worth the $200-some bucks to me. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14320|14187|2007-09-15 11:46:41|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to process the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the nutrients are exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some of them may well survive. This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time required to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are likely to survive this process. Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an insulated composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw insulation you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting typically doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release as CH4, etc. Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the released gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an aerator, and could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with luck burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present at all times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The bacteria are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste water from the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, but huge amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That permeate goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a specific kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the bioreactor. I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the microscope. It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, still has only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because this waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" com.au> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Garry; Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some other microbial life that is benificial to the process. If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other mediums with successs. I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all get on with positive inputs and attitudes. How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for what and who they are. period. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! > > Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14321|14135|2007-09-15 11:53:20|mark hamill|Re: interiors, where do you start?|Speaking of height, I think the Herreshoffs designed a sailboat to fit a pair of circus midgets and they loved the boat...but I redesigned the interior of my wharram cat and made drawings and mockups until they seemed to work for me alone. When I got the boat my then "life partner" thought she needed a seperate "potty" which I built but she never used because...(oh nevermind :)--- so that's the last time I worried about that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then starting > from one end got me wondering. > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > missing something here? > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the length > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in angle > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > seer > | 14322|14187|2007-09-15 11:57:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|People could refuse to buy things made in the 3rd world, in protest over the low wages paid. This would replace the low wages with no wages. To me it is like people that eat meat but complain about killing animals. In PI (Cztholic) female virginity is a prized commodity, often bought and sold at very high price. Girls without this feature are considered unmarriageable. The mama sans tour the villages in PI, looking for the best looking "unmarriageable" young girls to work in the bars and sex trade. However, competition for these jobs is fierce, and only the very best looking girls get the good jobs. As the girls age they quickly have no option but to take less and less desirable jobs. Expat men are considered a much better alternative by many of the girls. The workload is less and typically the net pay after expenses is better. These girls are typically poorly educated villagers. They grew up in a hut with a dirt floor, no running water, 6 other kids in the family. They usually have very limited english and by western standards they need really basic education in a lot of things we take for granted. You don't realize the importance of basic hygiene until you live with someone that never learned such skills. One of the huge advantages of cruising is that you learn to live in the 3rd world. Most people never learn this. They are uncomfortable in foreign lands. Unsure about the food, health, security, many many other factors. They would never go and live in a place like PI, it would be too foreign. Instead, they will continue to live where they were born, work and retire on a meager pension, living a substandard life style, when they could be living like a king in the 3rd world on that same pension. Greg ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Get used to it brother; Most of the items you purchase even in Ireland are made in 3rd word countries by people who are paid a lot less than you. That is why your standard of living is so high. And yes; it dosn't matter whose sister it is; sex is a reality, that's how come we are all here. I don't see why people here are a cut above anything, we are all just people doing our own thing And shit; yes that's a reality too. So what is your point? later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > to all , most people on this site are a cut above the avarage even those who indulge in petty bickering . > i have just read how to improve your boat while hiring the poor to do it while you screw their sister -child as they improve the smell of shit you excrete in the process, > there is a smell of shit from this site which has wafted from canada to ireland and engineering will not cure it . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:22 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > Philippine Islands, > > I was there 3 years ago. The day wage at the time was $5 for skilled labor, > beer was $.50 in the bars and a "full service" live aboard boat girl ran > about $50/month. I heard a few months ago the day wage had risen to $8. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of polaris041 > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can so to > speak. > > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, the > whole 9 > > yards. > > > > Greg > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14323|14323|2007-09-15 12:24:32|Tom|Metal cutting skillsaw|Hello All Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting skillsaws and if it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd nibbler or shear on the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated at 3/16" but they are quite expensive. Ive got one comming its a dewalt shear rated to 14gage. I do a lot of work in 16 gage so Im hoping it works as advertized, right now I use a hand compound shear" looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work using them. On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side tracked, wanted to get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the next and I ended up with a small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the prices for 316 stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then about $200 for the end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" x 6' for around $2000 seemed a bit outrages to me. To start with Im going to make 2 1" x 10' for the side decks and see how it goes. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14324|14187|2007-09-15 13:03:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|Isn't carbon dioxide the primary gas released by aerobic composting? Nitrogen (nitrous oxide) is a lesser by product. These are both greenhouse gases. In effect, composting removes the available energy (carbon) from waste by releasing it into the atmosphere rather than into the water. Composting prevents oxygen depletion in confined water supplies, but does nothing to help turbidity and sediment, neither of which are desired in confined waters. Filters are required for this. Cold composting is slow - it takes a long time to eliminate carbon and a long time to eliminate pathogens. On a boat, the problems in composting are aeration, moisture control, odour control, temperature control as well as released green house gases, sediments, turbidity and pathogens. These are not simple problems to solve. In addition, there is the problem of intermittent supply of waste preventing efficient composting, poor C:N, moisture and nutrient mix depending on the diet and health of the end user, as well as on occasion too much supply, requiring premature release of the compost to avoid overfilling the available container. Lastly there is the problem if contamination of the compost in progress with fresh waste. What solutions are available to deal with each of these problems? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present at all times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The bacteria are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste water from the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, but huge amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That permeate goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a specific kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the bioreactor. I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the microscope. It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, still has only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because this waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in the first place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" com.au> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Garry; Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some other microbial life that is benificial to the process. If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other mediums with successs. I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all get on with positive inputs and attitudes. How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for what and who they are. period. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs primarily > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. Peat moss > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my previous > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines to break > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding flats. I > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants get > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat moss to > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that traveled > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on the peat > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat moss won't > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't peat! > > Gary H. Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14325|14263|2007-09-15 13:46:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: propellor shaft|On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 10:54:47AM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > Actually graphite is used in seals because it doesn't need lubrication. > Mechanical seals seal by being lapped absolutely flat. They are so flat > that putting them together clean and dry they will be hard to separate, from > the vacuum alone. I suspect that you're absolutely right when it comes to mechanical bearings in general, because the manufacturer has absolute control over the alignment of the matching faces. The PSS, however, is not quite like that - when you first put it together, there's a tiny bit of of water that comes through until you've spun the shaft for a few minutes. There's also bound to be some microscopic roughness from the edges where the halves of the split SS doughnut meet. > It's kind of funny but the problem with mechanical seals > is not that they leak, but that they don't leak, so they don't get > lubrication. Stuffing boxes of course have the same problem. If they don't > drip while running then they quickly wear and you get a leak not a drip. Sure - this is the downfall of the stuffing box system, since it serves two completely opposing purposes (1 - keep the water out, 2 - let some through for lubrication.) The PSS splits the two jobs since it uses the graphite against the SS for lube. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14326|14264|2007-09-15 13:51:57|seeratlas|Re: propllor shaft|I met a fellow on a home built once off the coast north of Juneau who was a retired truck mechanic. He had this kind of installation and swore by it. I took a short ride in his boat and will tell you the vibration was substantially less than I consider normal. Looked like a very cost effective and durable solution to me. The boat was some 12 years in the water by then if I remember correctly. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > Hi Paul > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > drive axle). > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > bearing. > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > - they probably think I'm daft too > > Colin > | 14327|14187|2007-09-15 14:00:00|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Greg I hear what you are saying but i was under the impression that the US govt has already set standards for effluents that can be met by these airhead type installations.I'll have to go check the regs again but i think several of these types of units have been approved by various political entities. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to process > the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the > nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the nutrients are > exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will > simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some of them > may well survive. > > This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board > toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time required > to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are likely > to survive this process. > > Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding > decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an insulated > composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw insulation > you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting typically > doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release as CH4, > etc. > > Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the released > gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an aerator, and > could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with luck > burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the > environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the > main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have > understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present at all > times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong > smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The bacteria > are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the > conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. > > We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste water from > the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that > seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, but huge > amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO > biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That permeate > goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a specific > kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the > bioreactor. > > I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the microscope. > It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of > microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, still has > only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher > level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because this > waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in the first > > place. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" com.au> > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > Garry; > Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some > other microbial life that is benificial to the process. > > If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other > mediums with successs. > > I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically > about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those > living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. > > I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; > and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send > them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. > > I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all > get on with positive inputs and attitudes. > > How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what > ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for > what and who they are. period. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs > primarily > > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. > Peat moss > > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my > previous > > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines > to break > > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding > flats. I > > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants > get > > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat > moss to > > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that > traveled > > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on > the peat > > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat > moss won't > > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't > peat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14328|14135|2007-09-15 14:03:59|seeratlas|was- interiors, now Wharram|Mark, what kind of rig do you have on your wharram? Do you use the soft wing sail setup? if so, what is your opinion and conclusion on the the utility of that rig? I'd be very interested in hearing any comments you might offer as i am strongly considering employing that kind of wraparound, trackless rig on my modified schooner. I have it seen it used on a racing 46 cat to great effect and it seemed seriously simple in operation, and speedy to boot. Thanks in advance. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Speaking of height, I think the Herreshoffs designed a sailboat to > fit a pair of circus midgets and they loved the boat...but I > redesigned the interior of my wharram cat and made drawings and > mockups until they seemed to work for me alone. When I got the boat > my then "life partner" thought she needed a seperate "potty" which I > built but she never used because...(oh nevermind :)--- so that's the > last time I worried about that. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then > starting > > from one end got me wondering. > > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > > missing something here? > > > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the > length > > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in > angle > > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > > > seer > > > | 14329|14187|2007-09-15 14:43:53|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Ahhh, but greg, could you also not have employed the 'full service' girls for the same wage while omitting one particular 'duty'? :) In my mind, that is where you cross the line to exploitation, but your mileage may vary... In some circles I am known as "Morgan" and over the course of my life, people who have known me have styled various philosophical constructs I live by, variously as "Morgan's Laws" or "Morganisms" (as opposed to "Morgasms" which deal with something else entirely LOL). In any event, one of the most fundamental of "Morgan's Laws" (the First of which is "FLY THE PLANE!!" :) deals with the resolution of moral issues and goes something like this.. "When faced with a moral dilemma, close your eyes, visualize yourself on your death bed, looking back over your life. Then ask yourself, 'are you going to be happy you did something, or wish you had not'." You will be amazed at how seemingly difficult and complex issues are thus rendered clear and easily resolved. Note that the answer will vary depending upon one's own mindset. Though we all live together, we each in truth live alone with ourselves. While my proposed means of resolution may not put you in concert with any given cultural norm, its observance WILL put you at peace with yourself; which is a state rarely reached by men in this age, and imho, worth seeking. I know my own mind and I am content. I happen to be a great fan of women. In many ways i find them in general much more impressive than most men I have known, and their burdens more difficult. I would not take advantage of a child. Otoh, I am reminded of a "CARY GRANTISM" :) i.e., : "Under 18 protected by law, over 60, protected by nature, anywhere in between, FAIR GAME!" lol. seer oh, as to the economics of this world, I believe it is impossible for one culture to rise beyond a certain economic level, without bringing up those around it to a new plateau. I would cite, post war US raising Japan, who then raised Taiwan, then Korea and now China. Production will always flow to the cheapest available labor pool given reasonably free trade and an economic means of transportation. As for disparate wages, they are almost always relative to the std of living in the locale. One does not have to go to the 3rd world to note the difference in wages and rents in say NYC and Dubuque.... Note the above assumes a relatively peaceful cultural state. When the africans quit butchering themselves then perhaps the bulk of that continent will finally get back in the game. :) " --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > People could refuse to buy things made in the 3rd world, in protest over the > low wages paid. This would replace the low wages with no wages. To me it > is like people that eat meat but complain about killing animals. > > In PI (Cztholic) female virginity is a prized commodity, often bought and > sold at very high price. Girls without this feature are considered > unmarriageable. The mama sans tour the villages in PI, looking for the best > looking "unmarriageable" young girls to work in the bars and sex trade. > > However, competition for these jobs is fierce, and only the very best > looking girls get the good jobs. As the girls age they quickly have no > option but to take less and less desirable jobs. Expat men are considered a > much better alternative by many of the girls. The workload is less and > typically the net pay after expenses is better. > > These girls are typically poorly educated villagers. They grew up in a hut > with a dirt floor, no running water, 6 other kids in the family. They > usually have very limited english and by western standards they need really > basic education in a lot of things we take for granted. You don't realize > the importance of basic hygiene until you live with someone that never > learned such skills. > > One of the huge advantages of cruising is that you learn to live in the 3rd > world. Most people never learn this. They are uncomfortable in foreign > lands. Unsure about the food, health, security, many many other factors. > They would never go and live in a place like PI, it would be too foreign. > Instead, they will continue to live where they were born, work and retire on > a meager pension, living a substandard life style, when they could be living > like a king in the 3rd world on that same pension. > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of polaris041 > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:16 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > Get used to it brother; Most of the items you purchase even in > Ireland are made in 3rd word countries by people who are paid a lot > less than you. That is why your standard of living is so high. > And yes; it dosn't matter whose sister it is; sex is a reality, > that's > how come we are all here. > I don't see why people here are a cut above anything, we are all just > people doing our own thing > And shit; yes that's a reality too. > So what is your point? > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > > > to all , most people on this site are a cut above the avarage even > those who indulge in petty bickering . > > i have just read how to improve your boat while hiring the poor to > do it while you screw their sister -child as they improve the smell > of shit you excrete in the process, > > there is a smell of shit from this site which has wafted from > canada to ireland and engineering will not cure it . denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:22 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > Philippine Islands, > > > > I was there 3 years ago. The day wage at the time was $5 for > skilled labor, > > beer was $.50 in the bars and a "full service" live aboard boat > girl ran > > about $50/month. I heard a few months ago the day wage had risen > to $8. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of polaris041 > > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:47 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > PI?; not in my vocabulary, enlighten me please > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > PI is the destination for guys wanting another kick at the can > so to > > speak. > > > $1000 a month pension is a nice house, expenses, young wife, > the > > whole 9 > > > yards. > > > > > > Greg > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14330|14264|2007-09-15 17:47:19|Gordon Schnell|Re: propllor shaft|Hi Paul/Colin Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). This bolts to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my Velvet Drive transmission. I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. Hope that will work as planned. Comment and/or cautions?? Gord sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > Hi Paul > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > drive axle). > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > bearing. > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > - they probably think I'm daft too > > Colin > > | 14331|14264|2007-09-15 18:51:26|brentswain38|Re: propllor shaft|I'd be inclined to put a bronze oilite bearing ahead of any ball bearing or roller bearing , in case of failure. The oilite would last years, long enough to deal with the failed bearing. The works, ball bearing, oilite and seal should be in a separate sleeve to enable you to easily remove and work on it. This sleeve could have O ring grooves in it and O rings to get a good seal with the stern tube. You could use grease from a grease gun, instead of oil. Then,if you had an expansion tank between the grease gun and the bearings , with a pressure guage, in clear view, you could maintain a constant pressure and know what that pressure is at any time. Loss of pressure would warn you about the state of your seals. Are there any mechanics out there who can tell us how much pressure seals can take full time? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi Paul/Colin > Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust > bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used > in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are > opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). This bolts > to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and > threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a > large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my > Velvet Drive transmission. > I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub > assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. > Hope that will work as planned. > Comment and/or cautions?? > Gord > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > > but I can't confirm. > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > Hi Paul > > > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > > drive axle). > > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > > bearing. > > > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > > - they probably think I'm daft too > > > > Colin > > > > > | 14332|14135|2007-09-15 19:15:54|mark hamill|was- interiors, now Wharram|Seer: i have a ketch. No experience with the soft wing. However, the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club probably has some thoughts--very active and lots of experienced members. I am on the hard and have had two members come and see me. This is in Vancouver. Scott Brown Multihulls in england sells wharrams used and he is quite approachable. The wharram designers themselves (James, Ruth and Hanneke Boone) would probably sell you the plans. In the past their prices to me for my various requests for various plans of features on other designs have been quite reasonable. Scott Brown Multihulls also hosts a discussion group that could help and I think the Wharrams have one and also the Polynesian Catamarran Association. All of which you probably know and are wondering "when is he ever going to stop" All the best, Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Mark, what kind of rig do you have on your wharram? Do you use the > soft wing sail setup? if so, what is your opinion and conclusion on > the the utility of that rig? I'd be very interested in hearing any > comments you might offer as i am strongly considering employing that > kind of wraparound, trackless rig on my modified schooner. I have it > seen it used on a racing 46 cat to great effect and it seemed > seriously simple in operation, and speedy to boot. > > Thanks in advance. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > Speaking of height, I think the Herreshoffs designed a sailboat to > > fit a pair of circus midgets and they loved the boat...but I > > redesigned the interior of my wharram cat and made drawings and > > mockups until they seemed to work for me alone. When I got the boat > > my then "life partner" thought she needed a seperate "potty" which I > > built but she never used because...(oh nevermind :)--- so that's the > > last time I worried about that. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then > > starting > > > from one end got me wondering. > > > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then move > > > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or less to > > > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the main > > > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > > > missing something here? > > > > > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to measure > > > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the > > length > > > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, its my > > > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > > > > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see the > > > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > > > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit probably one > > > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > > > > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in > > angle > > > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > > > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid hardwood and > > > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 14333|14264|2007-09-15 22:48:11|Paul Wilson|Re: propllor shaft|Thanks Brent, I am surprised at your recommendations since this sounds quite complex to me. :) What are the chances of this getting too hot with using grease? Lack of water cooling is my concern. I once put too much grease in the gears of my angle grinder and it got so hot it almost melted the plastic. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:49:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft I'd be inclined to put a bronze oilite bearing ahead of any ball bearing or roller bearing , in case of failure. The oilite would last years, long enough to deal with the failed bearing. The works, ball bearing, oilite and seal should be in a separate sleeve to enable you to easily remove and work on it. This sleeve could have O ring grooves in it and O rings to get a good seal with the stern tube. You could use grease from a grease gun, instead of oil. Then,if you had an expansion tank between the grease gun and the bearings , with a pressure guage, in clear view, you could maintain a constant pressure and know what that pressure is at any time. Loss of pressure would warn you about the state of your seals. Are there any mechanics out there who can tell us how much pressure seals can take full time? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi Paul/Colin > Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust > bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used > in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are > opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). This bolts > to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and > threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a > large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my > Velvet Drive transmission. > I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub > assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. > Hope that will work as planned. > Comment and/or cautions?? > Gord > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > > but I can't confirm. > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > Hi Paul > > > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > > drive axle). > > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > > bearing. > > > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > > - they probably think I'm daft too > > > > Colin > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14334|14263|2007-09-15 22:55:09|Paul Wilson|Re: propellor shaft|Thanks for your input everybody, From what I am hearing it sounds like I need a bearing with some kind of lube or the lip seals won't last due to the sideways movement. I may go to one of the commercial lap seals if I feel rich. I have my engine mounted in the middle of the boat under the sinks and the shaft goes out the back of the keel. The shaft is only about 3 1/2 feet long and is rigidly mounted to the engine. I was told to only ever have two flex points and so far it has worked well since there has never been any undo wear. I don't have room to do any arrangement with a CV joint. I have always been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the price. I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and believe I could change it in the water if I had to. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as force water into your stern tube. If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a flexible drive http://tinyurl. com/2wgx75 something like this python drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the shaft from the motor. Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against sinking. OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat if you are relying on a rubber seal. I don't mind if you want to take that chance. I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work for you. No problems. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > develop a leak. > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy > > a lip-seal. > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos. yahoo.com/ index.html > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14335|14323|2007-09-16 01:28:51|seeratlas|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|tom, I have a big skillsaw and bought a couple of the metal cutting blades to try it out. Admittedly I only tried some 1/8th inch mild steel sheet, but it cut thru it without drama, making VERY clean cuts without warping etc. I have to tell you tho, its a real light show :) and I would advise some serious hearing protection etc. It's actually relatively quick, or at least faster than I thought. If you are going to try it on a whole boat though, i'd be looking to get a LOT of the blades and at wholesale :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting skillsaws and if it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? > Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd nibbler or shear on the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated at 3/16" but they are quite expensive. Ive got one comming its a dewalt shear rated to 14gage. I do a lot of work in 16 gage so Im hoping it works as advertized, right now I use a hand compound shear" looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work using them. > On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side tracked, wanted to get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the next and I ended up with a small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. > Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the prices for 316 stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then about $200 for the end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" x 6' for around $2000 seemed a bit outrages to me. To start with Im going to make 2 1" x 10' for the side decks and see how it goes. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14336|14135|2007-09-16 01:51:13|seeratlas|was- interiors, now Wharram|hehehe , just thinking of using the rig, the boat is a bastardization of Brent's 40 with a lot of mods I've decided upon over the course of my time in the water. For my application, i.e. a lower, horizontally extended modified schooner rig, with bowsprit, the wingsail makes a lot of sense, obviating the need for track, hoops, etc. and working well with the round pipe masts I'll have made up. I have spent a lot of time working out the details of re-cutting slightly used larger sails into the wing wrap around shape. The superior airfoil at the mast and the drastic decrease in turbulence just behind it, look to give me plenty of sail power with a much lower profile, which helps my stability and simplifies staying the poles in the bargain. It also enables me to utilize smaller and lighter strut booms eliminating a lot of the vangs etc. currently popular. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Seer: i have a ketch. No experience with the soft wing. > However, the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club probably has some > thoughts--very active and lots of experienced members. I am on the > hard and have had two members come and see me. This is in Vancouver. > Scott Brown Multihulls in england sells wharrams used and he is quite > approachable. > The wharram designers themselves (James, Ruth and Hanneke Boone) > would probably sell you the plans. In the past their prices to me for > my various requests for various plans of features on other designs > have been quite reasonable. Scott Brown Multihulls also hosts a > discussion group that could help and I think the Wharrams have one > and also the Polynesian Catamarran Association. All of which you > probably know and are wondering "when is he ever going to stop" > All the best, Mark > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Mark, what kind of rig do you have on your wharram? Do you use the > > soft wing sail setup? if so, what is your opinion and conclusion on > > the the utility of that rig? I'd be very interested in hearing any > > comments you might offer as i am strongly considering employing that > > kind of wraparound, trackless rig on my modified schooner. I have > it > > seen it used on a racing 46 cat to great effect and it seemed > > seriously simple in operation, and speedy to boot. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" > wrote: > > > > > > Speaking of height, I think the Herreshoffs designed a sailboat > to > > > fit a pair of circus midgets and they loved the boat...but I > > > redesigned the interior of my wharram cat and made drawings and > > > mockups until they seemed to work for me alone. When I got the > boat > > > my then "life partner" thought she needed a seperate "potty" > which I > > > built but she never used because...(oh nevermind :)--- so that's > the > > > last time I worried about that. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > you know the recent comment about planning the interior then > > > starting > > > > from one end got me wondering. > > > > I'd always planned to start with the main living space and then > move > > > > fore and aft from there so that if there was an inch more or > less to > > > > deal with, it would be in the ends and not interfere with the > main > > > > living space. Having never physically built a boat myself, am i > > > > missing something here? > > > > > > > > My plan was to work from my interior plans BUT make sure to > measure > > > > and *fit* things like the angles on the back of the settee, the > > > length > > > > and angle of the seat, height etc. to match me :) I mean hey, > its my > > > > boat, it ought to fit me. :) > > > > > > > > I had a friend who knew Wilt Chamberlain and once I got to see > the > > > > inside of his house. Let me tell you, most things with a few > > > > exceptions were built to Wilt's size :) the others, fit > probably one > > > > of his very best friends, a jockey , Bill Shoemaker :)(sp?). > > > > > > > > In any event, its been my experience that just a few degrees in > > > angle > > > > here, a few inches here etc. can make a heck of a difference in > > > > comfort on a boat. Now that I think of it, don't inlaid > hardwood and > > > > tile guys start pretty much in the center? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 14337|14264|2007-09-16 04:39:32|sae140|Re: propllor shaft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Hi Paul/Colin > Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust > bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used > in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are > opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). Yup - same technique on the Ford RWD axle - ideal setup. Using what you already have is my kind of engineering ... > This bolts > to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and > threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a > large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my > Velvet Drive transmission. Slides .... that reminds me - I forgot to mention that within the Ford CV-axle joint, the splined axle is free to slide back and forth within the joint, with a rubber concertina boot protecting it from dirt. I assume you have something similar here (?). The ability to slide within a joint is important, as the engine is able to move back-and-forth as well as side-to-side on it's soft mounts. (For anyone else not conversant with this arrangement, the back-to-back wheel bearing housing needs to be bolted down hard as it's acting as a thrust bearing, leaving the jointed shaft between this bearing and the gearbox free to articulate). > I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub > assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. > Hope that will work as planned. > Comment and/or cautions?? > Gord Well - my own prejudice is for oil, and if it were my boat I'd be inclined to replace the grease nipple with a few inches of tube run up to a small transparent container of oil. Mark the oil level, then simply check the level whenever you check the engine oil. As Brent has suggested, the ability to easily remove the assembly using bolts and an 'O'ring would be ideal if possible. Whatever you end up with, DO obtain and carry a fistful of spare seals as Sod's Law dictates that you'll never find the right size if needed ! I'd also be inclined to factor-in an initial strip-down/inspection after 'n' hundred hours or so - just to see how the seals are holding up. A friend has this arrangement in his Spray, which is still on the original seals after 12 years - but that only translates to a couple of hundred hours of shaft rotation, as he locks the shaft when sailing - so I can't comment on longevity. Colin Passing thought - as the ultimate in belt-n'-braces, I suppose a stuffing-box could be added to the end of the lip-seal 'box', either slackened right off, or with the stuffing left out. In the event of a catastrophic seal failure (unlikely - as they start to weep first) it would then be a simple matter of redeploying the gland.| 14338|14263|2007-09-16 04:50:47|sae140|Re: propellor shaft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > I have always been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the price. Agreed! Hence the home-brew varieties being discussed .... > I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and believe I could change it in the water if I had to. > > Cheers, Paul I'm also a passionate "no thru-hulls" person, for exactly the same reason. Far more boats have sunk at their moorings because of 'em than have even sunk from the ultimate storm/ hitting containers etc. I'll get off my soap-box now !! Good luck Colin| 14339|14323|2007-09-16 12:27:46|jfpacuas|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: Hi Tom, I have one of those metal cutting blades for my skilsaw. THe first time I used it was to cut a decorative fence for a friend of mine. THe fence was made of 1/4 steel. It cut it quite easily. THe next time I used it, I was trying to cut 3/16 and it didn't do so well.....I think the 1/4 may have done it in. I haven't used it since, but one of these days I'll try it on some thinner stuff. I think it would be great for long straight cuts in material less than 3/16. If I recall, I paid about US$50. Cheers Paul > > tom, > I have a big skillsaw and bought a couple of the metal cutting blades > to try it out. Admittedly I only tried some 1/8th inch mild steel > sheet, but it cut thru it without drama, making VERY clean cuts > without warping etc. I have to tell you tho, its a real light show :) > and I would advise some serious hearing protection etc. It's actually > relatively quick, or at least faster than I thought. If you are going > to try it on a whole boat though, i'd be looking to get a LOT of the > blades and at wholesale :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting > skillsaws and if it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? > > Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd > nibbler or shear on the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated > at 3/16" but they are quite expensive. Ive got one comming its a > dewalt shear rated to 14gage. I do a lot of work in 16 gage so Im > hoping it works as advertized, right now I use a hand compound shear" > looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work using them. > > On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side > tracked, wanted to get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the > next and I ended up with a small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. > > Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the prices > for 316 stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then > about $200 for the end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" > x 6' for around $2000 seemed a bit outrages to me. To start with Im > going to make 2 1" x 10' for the side decks and see how it goes. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14340|14263|2007-09-16 12:42:36|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: propellor shaft|Haven't used the drip less type seals. One person we sailed with had one, and mentioned they were very sensitive to alignment/vibration, and in his case leaked much worse than the old style stuffing box. I have had a rubber boot fail between the hull and the stuffing box. We were extremely lucky not to lose the boat and came within a hair of drowning the kids. My temptation would be to run all the through hulls inside the boat from metal standpipes, carried inside well above the water line and braced against bulkheads to prevent fatigue. The prop and shaft I would solid mount with a traditional stuffing box and pipe welded to the hull and eliminate the rubber boot. Maybe they only fail very rarely, but I can tell you I still shudder to recall that day. This probably complicates things a little if you want to soft mount the engine, but for offshore I think it is worth it. If the rubber boot to the stuffing box fails, I'd say there is a 99% chance you will lose the boat within 30 minutes. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft Thanks for your input everybody, From what I am hearing it sounds like I need a bearing with some kind of lube or the lip seals won't last due to the sideways movement. I may go to one of the commercial lap seals if I feel rich. I have my engine mounted in the middle of the boat under the sinks and the shaft goes out the back of the keel. The shaft is only about 3 1/2 feet long and is rigidly mounted to the engine. I was told to only ever have two flex points and so far it has worked well since there has never been any undo wear. I don't have room to do any arrangement with a CV joint. I have always been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the price. I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and believe I could change it in the water if I had to. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 com.au> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as force water into your stern tube. If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a flexible drive http://tinyurl. com/2wgx75 something like this python drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the shaft from the motor. Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against sinking. OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat if you are relying on a rubber seal. I don't mind if you want to take that chance. I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work for you. No problems. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > develop a leak. > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy > > a lip-seal. > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos. yahoo.com/ index.html > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________________ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/3658 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14341|14263|2007-09-16 13:05:26|Carl Anderson|Re: propellor shaft|I have used the PSS seal on Moonflower after doing "my" research. Upon launch Iwas expecting some water intrusion into the bilge during break-in but found it to be "dripless" right from the beginning. I won't be losing any sleep from having the seal "floating" at the end of the corrogated hose either. Carl www.MoonflowerOfMoab.com Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 11:47:50PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the > > stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a > > short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now > > in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so > > would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. > > The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with > > your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it > > would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can > > be done cheaply and safely. > > I've been using PSS shaft seals for years now - I had one on my previous > boat, and liked it so much that I installed one on "Ulysses" during the > first haul-out. After the initial break-in period (a day or so), I don't > have so much as a drop of water in my bilge. > > http://www.shaftseal.com/ > > In short, it's a graphite surface that spins (and thus seals, by filling > in any imperfections) against a stainless one. I inspect it about once a > year - all the working parts are visible from the outside - to make sure > that the corrugated hose is in good shape, and that's it. > > Just knowing that I'll never have to use a packing removal tool again is > well worth the $200-some bucks to me. :) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * > > | 14342|14187|2007-09-16 13:32:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|My first thought was that since the government never makes mistakes, these devices must be OK. However, I checked the regulations. Airhead is approved as a type 3 device, in that: 1. used solely for the storage of waste. 2. designed to prevent the overboard discharge of waste. In other words, the Airhead is approved for marine use, so long as you use if to store the waste. The Airhead is approved as a combined toilet and holding tank. If you go to a pump-out station and empty it, or take the waste container ashore and empty it into a sanitary system, them everything is approved and OK. As soon as you dump the waste over the side, you are in violation of the regulations. The Airhead is a waterless marine head with a very small holding tank attached, and is approved if you use it in that fashion. It is not approved for the discharge of composted waste overboard. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Greg I hear what you are saying but i was under the impression that the US govt has already set standards for effluents that can be met by these airhead type installations.I'll have to go check the regs again but i think several of these types of units have been approved by various political entities. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to process > the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the > nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the nutrients are > exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will > simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some of them > may well survive. > > This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board > toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time required > to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are likely > to survive this process. > > Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding > decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an insulated > composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw insulation > you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting typically > doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release as CH4, > etc. > > Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the released > gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an aerator, and > could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with luck > burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the > environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the > main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have > understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present at all > times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong > smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The bacteria > are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the > conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. > > We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste water from > the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that > seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, but huge > amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO > biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That permeate > goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a specific > kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the > bioreactor. > > I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the microscope. > It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of > microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, still has > only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher > level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because this > waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in the first > > place. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" com.au> > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > Garry; > Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some > other microbial life that is benificial to the process. > > If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other > mediums with successs. > > I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically > about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those > living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. > > I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; > and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send > them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. > > I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all > get on with positive inputs and attitudes. > > How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what > ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for > what and who they are. period. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs > primarily > > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. > Peat moss > > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my > previous > > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines > to break > > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding > flats. I > > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants > get > > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat > moss to > > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that > traveled > > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on > the peat > > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat > moss won't > > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't > peat! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14343|14263|2007-09-16 14:14:10|polaris041|Re: propellor shaft|Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, then often compromise that with gay abandon. There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. Greg has commented on the potential of failing rubber boots. If a traditional stuffing gland starts to leak,tighten the nuts and you have stemmed that flow. If you need to repack it at sea it can be done .You will get wet but you will save the day. Try replacing a rubber boot. Can't be done without disconnecting the shaft. (now where is that damn spanner) When you see that gyser and the flow rate you will s**t yourself. Learn from commercial fishers. Use keel cooling and a dry stack. Can't get clogged with plastic,coral or weed. Don't have to remember to close anything or forget to open anything. Can't flood your motor via the action of lapping waves against a wet exhaust outlet. Which can cause water to be sucked past a worn impellor pump a few drops at a time. Yes it's happened to me. With a dry stack have a 4 foot water jacket in the coolant path on the exhaust directly after a flexible coupling from the manifold. Heavily lag the manifold. Then a standard auto muffler. Quite as and totally fool proof. If you must have sea water inlet; have 1 stand pipe at least 4", but better 6" in a central easy to access location terminating well above the water level. This has a flange with a removable bolted lid. All your inlets are taken from glands on that lid, with individual cocks, with tails which reach down to the water.This size pipe allows you to have a good weld to the hull and supports the pipe adequately. It can be cleaned inside, inspected,painted and anti fouled with ease. No need for any drain outlets below the water line at all. Consider pumping out your sink etc via a high loop with anti syphon valve to an outlet above the water line. Even prevents that slop popping the sink plug and loosing all your hot dish washing water. Now when you find raising water in the bilge you won't be frantic searching for the source. Once the water level is above any leak source you can't locate it easily just by looking, you have to feel for it while the panic levels increase. Don't worry; It can't happen if you follow what has been suggested. But then I do know a guy who has lived aboard for 25 years and he has all the potential leak sources and he hasn't sunk, so it's OK. Later pol. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Haven't used the drip less type seals. One person we sailed with had one, > and mentioned they were very sensitive to alignment/vibration, and in his > case leaked much worse than the old style stuffing box. > > I have had a rubber boot fail between the hull and the stuffing box. We > were extremely lucky not to lose the boat and came within a hair of drowning > the kids. > > My temptation would be to run all the through hulls inside the boat from > metal standpipes, carried inside well above the water line and braced > against bulkheads to prevent fatigue. > > The prop and shaft I would solid mount with a traditional stuffing box and > pipe welded to the hull and eliminate the rubber boot. Maybe they only fail > very rarely, but I can tell you I still shudder to recall that day. > > This probably complicates things a little if you want to soft mount the > engine, but for offshore I think it is worth it. If the rubber boot to the > stuffing box fails, I'd say there is a 99% chance you will lose the boat > within 30 minutes. > > Greg | 14344|14344|2007-09-16 14:35:27|polaris041|Toilet holding tanks|Place the holding tank for your black water above the water line. A convenient space is outboard of the pan under the side deck and hard up against it. This tank has a funnel shaped bottom with a 2" cock thru the hull ABOVE the water line. When at sea this cock can be left open and merely pump your head waste in the top. It will self discharge and no land lubber has to play with any 'taps'. (I prefer to keep it closed and only open when needed). In restricted dumping areas close the cock and wait till at sea again. Openning the cock the tank will self drain. At anchor the added weight up high is no disadvantage. later pol| 14345|14345|2007-09-16 15:20:58|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|Hi all. Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed with the cost? For the commercial units on the market I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one where both universals have greese nipples Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under power. Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor the greese will not wash out. it works. Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy virtually trouble free system. I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys have been working on has been perfected (which is good, it's what this site is supposed to be about isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech support and of course a dedicated website to support it all, and of course financing plans made availble to all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit always worked fine for me. Lets get back to the simplification of systems that work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. E'nuf said, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14346|14263|2007-09-16 15:24:52|seeratlas|Re: propellor shaft|I'll agree on the thru hulls but with a steel hull, we should be talking about standing pipes and assuming they are installed correctly, that's pretty much end of problem. I also believe in a single large pipe or box from which you can draw what you need. means a bit more plumbing but if there is a problem, there's only one place to go. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have always been impressed with the CV arangements but never been > impressed with the price. > > Agreed! Hence the home-brew varieties being discussed .... > > > I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it > was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all > since they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a > spare hose and believe I could change it in the water if I had to. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > I'm also a passionate "no thru-hulls" person, for exactly the same > reason. Far more boats have sunk at their moorings because of 'em > than have even sunk from the ultimate storm/ hitting containers etc. > > I'll get off my soap-box now !! > > Good luck > Colin > | 14347|14347|2007-09-16 15:29:01|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Philipine Islands|When I was there mid 80's to mid 90's you could retire and live of the interest very comfortably for a million peso's. at 25 peso's to the yank $ thats $40,000. Prices have gone up tho, it was 5 peso for a beer & 50 for a pension! Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14348|14345|2007-09-16 17:03:46|polaris041|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|All wise words Shane. But with one proviso about the type of grease used. A friend recently launched having used some 'ordinary' grease in his stuffing box. All things went well until things warmed up a bit and the engine would slowly die; the shaft becoming locked, only to free up later. This went on a few times until he slipped and drew the shaft. He found that grease had been foced back into the inner bearing. He was told by an 'expert' that some greases actually have fine clay as fillers which act as platletts which slide over each other. Trouble here was they were 'dragging' on the shaft, maybe as a result of the combination with sea water and binding with such effect to stall a 52hp motor. So he spent the bucks on the appropriate grease and the problem was solved. But still an excellent path to a fail safe cheap system. Later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi all. > > Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed > with the cost? For the commercial units on the market > I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if > you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive > shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a > couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? > Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive > shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one > where both universals have greese nipples > > Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt > hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun > hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near > the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of > greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be > expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an > hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material > in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give > it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under > power. > > Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a > couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in > the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor > the greese will not wash out. it works. > > Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of > everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the > engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy > virtually trouble free system. > > I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways > to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true > system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & > can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. > > Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys > have been working on has been perfected (which is > good, it's what this site is supposed to be about > isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts > of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech > support and of course a dedicated website to support > it all, and of course financing plans made availble to > all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit > always worked fine for me. > > Lets get back to the simplification of systems that > work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em > in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. > > E'nuf said, > Shane > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 14349|14323|2007-09-16 19:28:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 05:28:43AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > tom, > I have a big skillsaw and bought a couple of the metal cutting blades > to try it out. Admittedly I only tried some 1/8th inch mild steel > sheet, but it cut thru it without drama, making VERY clean cuts > without warping etc. I have to tell you tho, its a real light show :) > and I would advise some serious hearing protection etc. It's actually > relatively quick, or at least faster than I thought. If you are going > to try it on a whole boat though, i'd be looking to get a LOT of the > blades and at wholesale :) For the work I've been doing recently, I've been using my reciprocating saw with Blu-Mol Xtreme "Demolition and Rescue" blades (if I recall, the 25-pack was something like $60.) They cut through 1/8" steel with very little fuss, and not much in a way of sparks, and last for a good long time. I recall trying a rotary saw with a metal blade on it a long time ago; yeah, you could advertise it as a fireworks show, and nobody would ask for their money back. :) It also didn't last for anything like a reasonable time, given the price. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14350|14263|2007-09-16 19:30:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: propellor shaft|On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 08:49:10AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > I'm also a passionate "no thru-hulls" person, for exactly the same > reason. Far more boats have sunk at their moorings because of 'em > than have even sunk from the ultimate storm/ hitting containers etc. I met a fellow in the islands who had built his 60' aluminium boat with a nice sea chest: it was just a box, about 18"x18", that sat behind his companionway ladder and came up above his waterline, and all his intakes were just valved pipes coming out of it. He could shut any of them off right at the sea chest, and if one of them got clogged, he could just open the top (held on with four toggles) and remove the obstruction. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14351|14263|2007-09-16 19:45:07|Ben Okopnik|Re: propellor shaft|On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 06:12:27PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Greg has commented on the potential of failing rubber boots. If a > traditional stuffing gland starts to leak,tighten the nuts and you > have stemmed that flow. If you need to repack it at sea it can be > done .You will get wet but you will save the day. Try replacing a > rubber boot. Can't be done without disconnecting the shaft. Actually, wrapping the boot with a split bicycle tire (I always carry a couple aboard - it's a good emergency fallback for failed pipes, hoses, etc.) and clamping it off with hose clamps would work fine - assuming that your boot is where you can reach it. Mine is easily accessible and visible - the first time I had "Ulysses" hauled, I replaced the pipe with a somewhat longer piece just for this purpose. > Now when you find raising water in the bilge you won't be frantic > searching for the source. Once the water level is above any leak > source you can't locate it easily just by looking, you have to feel > for it while the panic levels increase. Pretty grim stuff, that; I've seen it happen on someone else's boat (luckily, I managed to guess right - or there would have been an additional bottom feature on Long Island Sound charts...) One of the things that "Ulysses" came with that I really like is a big valve that can switch the engine water pump intake to a BIG strainer in the bilge. I hope I never have to use it, but it's a nice bit of backup security. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14352|14263|2007-09-16 20:44:41|Paul Wilson|Re: propellor shaft|I replaced the hose to my stuffing box once in the last 15 years. It gave plenty of warning it was going to go since it felt a little soft since it was starting to delaminate. Now that my drive shaft is out I will replace it again even though it is going strong after 7 years. I will use it as an emergency spare. Too many items like this get ignored and forgotten about and when they fail the component gets blamed. I am not suggesting this is the case with you or your example but regular maintenance on many boats is an afterthought :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "ge@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35:53 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft Haven't used the drip less type seals. One person we sailed with had one, and mentioned they were very sensitive to alignment/vibration , and in his case leaked much worse than the old style stuffing box. I have had a rubber boot fail between the hull and the stuffing box. We were extremely lucky not to lose the boat and came within a hair of drowning the kids. My temptation would be to run all the through hulls inside the boat from metal standpipes, carried inside well above the water line and braced against bulkheads to prevent fatigue. The prop and shaft I would solid mount with a traditional stuffing box and pipe welded to the hull and eliminate the rubber boot. Maybe they only fail very rarely, but I can tell you I still shudder to recall that day. This probably complicates things a little if you want to soft mount the engine, but for offshore I think it is worth it. If the rubber boot to the stuffing box fails, I'd say there is a 99% chance you will lose the boat within 30 minutes. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:52 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft Thanks for your input everybody, From what I am hearing it sounds like I need a bearing with some kind of lube or the lip seals won't last due to the sideways movement. I may go to one of the commercial lap seals if I feel rich. I have my engine mounted in the middle of the boat under the sinks and the shaft goes out the back of the keel. The shaft is only about 3 1/2 feet long and is rigidly mounted to the engine. I was told to only ever have two flex points and so far it has worked well since there has never been any undo wear. I don't have room to do any arrangement with a CV joint. I have always been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the price. I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and believe I could change it in the water if I had to. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 com.au> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as force water into your stern tube. If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a flexible drive http://tinyurl. com/2wgx75 something like this python drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the shaft from the motor. Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against sinking. OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat if you are relying on a rubber seal. I don't mind if you want to take that chance. I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work for you. No problems. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > standard proven procedures. > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > conditions, you can't go passed them. > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > replace it in the water. > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good results; > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > properties. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > shaft on > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > could be > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > avoiding to > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the shaft, > would > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > epoxy > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic of > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em will > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > solution > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a small > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > develop a leak. > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > destroy > > a lip-seal. > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > (and > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > view > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos. yahoo.com/ index.html > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/ 3658 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14353|14345|2007-09-16 21:08:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|I like your thinking Shane. I am working overseas now but I believe I have only have about ten inches between the gearbox and the stuffing box. I will check the dimensions more closely when I get home in about 4 weeks. I am swinging more and more towards the grease nipple on the old-style stuffing box idea. Cheers, Paul P.S. It's been fun diverting the thread from the airheads..... ----- Original Message ---- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:20:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements Hi all. Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed with the cost? For the commercial units on the market I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one where both universals have greese nipples Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under power. Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor the greese will not wash out. it works. Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy virtually trouble free system. I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys have been working on has been perfected (which is good, it's what this site is supposed to be about isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech support and of course a dedicated website to support it all, and of course financing plans made availble to all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit always worked fine for me. Lets get back to the simplification of systems that work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. E'nuf said, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14354|14263|2007-09-16 22:16:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: propellor shaft|The number 1 problem I found was that you cannot see or feel the water coming in once the boot is under water. I luckily remembered reading this in a book somewhere, and after checking all the through hulls twice, and could not find the leak, I was able to stick my fingers though the opening to confirm the boot had failed. We were very lucky. The boot failed as we shifted into reverse as we pulled into a yacht club - a rare event for us. The engine made a funny sound which both I and my wife noticed, but we didn't register what had happened. With all the pumps on and a couple of strong guys bailing with buckets we were going down in a hurry I was able to spin the shaft by hand, with my head well and truly underwater, and wind a piece of tarred marlin in though the rip, forming a ball inside the boot, which the water pressure helped to seal. This kept us afloat long enough to get the boat up against some piles with a dinghy. We were doubly lucky that it was high tide, because for the next couple of days, the water level inside the boat matched the outside. Given enough time we might have been able to come up with a better seal, but there absolutely wasn't time for anything involved. You would need something that can be done by one person, underwater holding their breath, in the dark, quite possibly in a seaway, with maybe 5 minutes top to complete the repairs. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 06:12:27PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Greg has commented on the potential of failing rubber boots. If a > traditional stuffing gland starts to leak,tighten the nuts and you > have stemmed that flow. If you need to repack it at sea it can be > done .You will get wet but you will save the day. Try replacing a > rubber boot. Can't be done without disconnecting the shaft. Actually, wrapping the boot with a split bicycle tire (I always carry a couple aboard - it's a good emergency fallback for failed pipes, hoses, etc.) and clamping it off with hose clamps would work fine - assuming that your boot is where you can reach it. Mine is easily accessible and visible - the first time I had "Ulysses" hauled, I replaced the pipe with a somewhat longer piece just for this purpose. > Now when you find raising water in the bilge you won't be frantic > searching for the source. Once the water level is above any leak > source you can't locate it easily just by looking, you have to feel > for it while the panic levels increase. Pretty grim stuff, that; I've seen it happen on someone else's boat (luckily, I managed to guess right - or there would have been an additional bottom feature on Long Island Sound charts...) One of the things that "Ulysses" came with that I really like is a big valve that can switch the engine water pump intake to a BIG strainer in the bilge. I hope I never have to use it, but it's a nice bit of backup security. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14355|14263|2007-09-16 22:42:10|David A. Frantz|Re: propellor shaft|In industry when we have a belt or other item in a difficult to get location we often install 2 one to do the work and one for an emergency repair. Generally good Preventive Maintenance will help you avoid the need for the stand by part. It would seem to be a solution to the rubber boot problem. That is if you have enough room to slip the spare over the shaft or tube. If on the shaft it will need to be fastened to the shaft of avoid premature wear. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 06:12:27PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > > > Greg has commented on the potential of failing rubber boots. If a > > traditional stuffing gland starts to leak,tighten the nuts and you > > have stemmed that flow. If you need to repack it at sea it can be > > done .You will get wet but you will save the day. Try replacing a > > rubber boot. Can't be done without disconnecting the shaft. > > Actually, wrapping the boot with a split bicycle tire (I always carry a > couple aboard - it's a good emergency fallback for failed pipes, hoses, > etc.) and clamping it off with hose clamps would work fine - assuming > that your boot is where you can reach it. Mine is easily accessible and > visible - the first time I had "Ulysses" hauled, I replaced the pipe > with a somewhat longer piece just for this purpose. > > > Now when you find raising water in the bilge you won't be frantic > > searching for the source. Once the water level is above any leak > > source you can't locate it easily just by looking, you have to feel > > for it while the panic levels increase. > > Pretty grim stuff, that; I've seen it happen on someone else's boat > (luckily, I managed to guess right - or there would have been an > additional bottom feature on Long Island Sound charts...) One of the > things that "Ulysses" came with that I really like is a big valve that > can switch the engine water pump intake to a BIG strainer in the bilge. > I hope I never have to use it, but it's a nice bit of backup security. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 14356|14263|2007-09-16 23:59:28|polaris041|Re: propellor shaft|Talking of sinking ships; Many years ago a couple of friends left Australia,went to Holland; and bought a second hand 30' steel vessel because at that stage it was A LOT cheaper than finishing the boat they had started here. First night they had 'plenty' to drink to celebrate their good luck. They awoke to a wet surprise when the water started floating them off the bunk. Captain Marbles,my mate, scrambled out, leaving her to her own devices and jump overboard, detirmied not to be sucked down by the sinking vessel. His wife, having drunk less was more aware. She went on deck and walked the plank to the canal bank. The vessell sank another 6 inches and settled in the mud. She left him to save himself from drowning in the canal.. Later pol. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The number 1 problem I found was that you cannot see or feel the water > coming in once the boot is under water. I luckily remembered reading this > in a book somewhere, and after checking all the through hulls twice, and > could not find the leak, I was able to stick my fingers though the opening > to confirm the boot had failed. > > We were very lucky. The boot failed as we shifted into reverse as we pulled > into a yacht club - a rare event for us. The engine made a funny sound > which both I and my wife noticed, but we didn't register what had happened. > With all the pumps on and a couple of strong guys bailing with buckets we > were going down in a hurry > > I was able to spin the shaft by hand, with my head well and truly > underwater, and wind a piece of tarred marlin in though the rip, forming a > ball inside the boot, which the water pressure helped to seal. This kept us > afloat long enough to get the boat up against some piles with a dinghy. We > were doubly lucky that it was high tide, because for the next couple of > days, the water level inside the boat matched the outside. > > Given enough time we might have been able to come up with a better seal, but > there absolutely wasn't time for anything involved. You would need > something that can be done by one person, underwater holding their breath, > in the dark, quite possibly in a seaway, with maybe 5 minutes top to > complete the repairs. > > Greg . | 14357|14345|2007-09-17 00:27:32|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|We have a conventional stuffing box arrangement with rings of packing with offset cuts BUT there is green TEFLON goo packed into the stuffing box. I found the teflon packing on the internet and the idea came from Nigel Calder's book. The nut is finger tight plus a bit and the shaft runs cool with no dripping. The prop can be turned with one finger. Steel boat in Deep Bay, Vancouver Island. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements I like your thinking Shane. I am working overseas now but I believe I have only have about ten inches between the gearbox and the stuffing box. I will check the dimensions more closely when I get home in about 4 weeks. I am swinging more and more towards the grease nipple on the old-style stuffing box idea. Cheers, Paul P.S. It's been fun diverting the thread from the airheads..... ----- Original Message ---- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:20:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements Hi all. Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed with the cost? For the commercial units on the market I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one where both universals have greese nipples Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under power. Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor the greese will not wash out. it works. Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy virtually trouble free system. I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys have been working on has been perfected (which is good, it's what this site is supposed to be about isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech support and of course a dedicated website to support it all, and of course financing plans made availble to all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit always worked fine for me. Lets get back to the simplification of systems that work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. E'nuf said, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca __________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007 7:54 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14358|14263|2007-09-17 09:43:00|audeojude|Re: propellor shaft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. its just an annoyance. I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the water for best sailing performance. The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized to the swain boats. I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though.| 14359|14263|2007-09-17 10:15:11|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. audeojude wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. its just an annoyance. I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the water for best sailing performance. The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized to the swain boats. I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14360|14263|2007-09-17 10:25:32|audeojude|Re: propellor shaft|I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14361|14263|2007-09-17 10:28:46|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. audeojude wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. its just an annoyance. I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the water for best sailing performance. The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized to the swain boats. I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14362|14263|2007-09-17 10:45:41|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft|Put the wire inside a small steel pipe and weld it thru the bottom and above waterline - and you should be safe! Rgds/Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- FrÃ¥n: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För audeojude Skickat: den 17 september 2007 16:23 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 2534 (20070917) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com | 14363|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:10|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14364|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:16|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14365|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:25|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how large of a gen audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14366|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:27|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how large of a gen set is what I have left to audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14367|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:28|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how large of a gen set is what I audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14368|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:33|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how large of a gen set is what I have audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14369|14263|2007-09-17 11:10:47|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I am going with the twin keel design and if I use the hull as part of the tank that would cover the worst case. A generator would be wise to maintain a bilge pump for long term. Just how large of a audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14370|14345|2007-09-17 11:58:51|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|Defender.com (search shaft packing) has 2 types of drip free shaft packing. We used the Buck Algonquin. Defender lists Dripless Mouldable Packing from Pacific Trading Company. It appears to be a similar green teflon goo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14371|14263|2007-09-17 15:55:34|Aaron Williams|Test|Test I think my keyboard was stuck audeojude wrote: I agree your risk is less but I would still have a method of sealing the hole available if for some reason the pod was hit hard enough to break it off or break the pod itself. always plan for worst case.. however a 1/2 inch or less hole through the bottom of the boat is much less than a 1.5 to 2 inch prop shaft hole. and would give you much more time to respond. your pumps could propbably keep up with a 1/2 inch hole. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14372|14263|2007-09-17 20:00:56|seeratlas|Re: propellor shaft|-Ahhh chivalry lives hehehe seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Talking of sinking ships; > Many years ago a couple of friends left Australia,went to Holland; > and bought a second hand 30' steel vessel because at that stage it > was A LOT cheaper than finishing the boat they had started here. > First night they had 'plenty' to drink to celebrate their good luck. > They awoke to a wet surprise when the water started floating them off > the bunk. > Captain Marbles,my mate, scrambled out, leaving her to her own > devices and jump overboard, detirmied not to be sucked down by the > sinking vessel. > His wife, having drunk less was more aware. She went on deck and > walked the plank to the canal bank. > The vessell sank another 6 inches and settled in the mud. > She left him to save himself from drowning in the canal.. > > Later pol. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > The number 1 problem I found was that you cannot see or feel the > water > > coming in once the boot is under water. I luckily remembered > reading this > > in a book somewhere, and after checking all the through hulls > twice, and > > could not find the leak, I was able to stick my fingers though the > opening > > to confirm the boot had failed. > > > > We were very lucky. The boot failed as we shifted into reverse as > we pulled > > into a yacht club - a rare event for us. The engine made a funny > sound > > which both I and my wife noticed, but we didn't register what had > happened. > > With all the pumps on and a couple of strong guys bailing with > buckets we > > were going down in a hurry > > > > I was able to spin the shaft by hand, with my head well and truly > > underwater, and wind a piece of tarred marlin in though the rip, > forming a > > ball inside the boot, which the water pressure helped to seal. > This kept us > > afloat long enough to get the boat up against some piles with a > dinghy. We > > were doubly lucky that it was high tide, because for the next > couple of > > days, the water level inside the boat matched the outside. > > > > Given enough time we might have been able to come up with a better > seal, but > > there absolutely wasn't time for anything involved. You would need > > something that can be done by one person, underwater holding their > breath, > > in the dark, quite possibly in a seaway, with maybe 5 minutes top to > > complete the repairs. > > > > Greg > . > | 14373|14345|2007-09-17 20:34:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|Thanks for your help! Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ian and Jean Campbell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:48:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements Defender.com (search shaft packing) has 2 types of drip free shaft packing. We used the Buck Algonquin. Defender lists Dripless Mouldable Packing from Pacific Trading Company. It appears to be a similar green teflon goo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14374|14374|2007-09-18 14:25:06|troller10|Ballast Lead|I need to start acquiring lead for the Keel of a 40 footer. I got a lead on Lead counter weights from a forklift scrapper. How many pounds of lead is needed for the 40 foot twin keel Swain design. Thanks, Brien| 14375|14374|2007-09-19 00:34:46|Gordon Schnell|Re: Ballast Lead|Brien I have done a 40' single keel into which I melted 7000 lbs. of lead. Gord troller10 wrote: > > I need to start acquiring lead for the Keel of a 40 footer. I got a > lead on Lead counter weights from a forklift scrapper. > > How many pounds of lead is needed for the 40 foot twin keel Swain design. > > Thanks, > > Brien > > | 14376|14376|2007-09-19 00:37:49|seeratlas|Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ| 14377|14377|2007-09-19 01:07:49|seeratlas|some motivation washington to marquesas|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0K4l0Y2esU| 14378|14376|2007-09-19 09:55:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed up? What were the results? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) http://www.youtube com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14379|14376|2007-09-19 10:59:08|Michael Casling|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|There is zero chance of a steel boat like that, or any boat of those proportions doing 38 knots to windward, especially in large waves. Might I suggest that was the temperature in Fahrenheit. Those boats will not do 38 knots off the wind in a hurricane. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:45 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed up? What were the results? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) http://www.youtube com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14380|14376|2007-09-19 11:31:29|Carl Anderson|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|My best guess is that the 38 knot reading is the sustained apparent wind speed that the boat is sailing in. Carl Michael Casling wrote: > > > There is zero chance of a steel boat like that, or any boat of those > proportions doing 38 knots to windward, especially in large waves. Might > I suggest that was the temperature in Fahrenheit. > Those boats will not do 38 knots off the wind in a hurricane. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:45 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed > up? What were the results? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > http://www.youtube > > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14381|14381|2007-09-19 12:26:54|TDPOPP@aol.com|Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center Cockpit with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to put it aft or center? Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... Tom Popp - KA0TP Small boat Sailer looking to move up... Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the world even on VHF. (See IRLP) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14382|14263|2007-09-19 14:40:38|brentswain38|Re: propellor shaft|If you hook a grease gun hose to your stern tube and keep it full ,then a stuffing box failure won't sink the boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I replaced the hose to my stuffing box once in the last 15 years. It gave plenty of warning it was going to go since it felt a little soft since it was starting to delaminate. Now that my drive shaft is out I will replace it again even though it is going strong after 7 years. I will use it as an emergency spare. Too many items like this get ignored and forgotten about and when they fail the component gets blamed. I am not suggesting this is the case with you or your example but regular maintenance on many boats is an afterthought :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@..." > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35:53 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > Haven't used the drip less type seals. One person we sailed with had one, > and mentioned they were very sensitive to alignment/vibration , and in his > case leaked much worse than the old style stuffing box. > > I have had a rubber boot fail between the hull and the stuffing box. We > were extremely lucky not to lose the boat and came within a hair of drowning > the kids. > > My temptation would be to run all the through hulls inside the boat from > metal standpipes, carried inside well above the water line and braced > against bulkheads to prevent fatigue. > > The prop and shaft I would solid mount with a traditional stuffing box and > pipe welded to the hull and eliminate the rubber boot. Maybe they only fail > very rarely, but I can tell you I still shudder to recall that day. > > This probably complicates things a little if you want to soft mount the > engine, but for offshore I think it is worth it. If the rubber boot to the > stuffing box fails, I'd say there is a 99% chance you will lose the boat > within 30 minutes. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:52 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > Thanks for your input everybody, > > From what I am hearing it sounds like I need a bearing with some kind of > lube or the lip seals won't last due to the sideways movement. I may go to > one of the commercial lap seals if I feel rich. > > I have my engine mounted in the middle of the boat under the sinks and the > shaft goes out the back of the keel. The shaft is only about 3 1/2 feet long > and is rigidly mounted to the engine. I was told to only ever have two flex > points and so far it has worked well since there has never been any undo > wear. I don't have room to do any arrangement with a CV joint. I have always > been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the > price. I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it > was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since > they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and > believe I could change it in the water if I had to. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 com.au> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating > seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing > supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. > Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical > in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the > shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported > shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length > dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. > You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving > in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of > it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. > You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is > subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and > will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as > force water into your stern tube. > If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a > flexible drive http://tinyurl. com/2wgx75 something like this python > drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust > bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes > prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft > movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German > company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the > shaft from the motor. > Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal > that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets > back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against > sinking. > OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat > if you are relying on a rubber seal. > I don't mind if you want to take that chance. > I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft > wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just > make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft > in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. > The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on > fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there > have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings > was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing > terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted > to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an > interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from > the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the > fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on > their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. > I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. > In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a > sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real > for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work > for you. No problems. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount > the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a > short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once > now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so > would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing > box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I > agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and > true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry > bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: polaris041 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > > standard proven procedures. > > > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > > conditions, you can't go passed them. > > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > > replace it in the water. > > > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good > results; > > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > > properties. > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is > flexible, > > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing > this > > but I can't confirm. > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: sae140 > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > > shaft on > > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > > could be > > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > > avoiding to > > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the > shaft, > > would > > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > > epoxy > > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic > of > > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em > will > > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > > solution > > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a > small > > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > > develop a leak. > > > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > > destroy > > > a lip-seal. > > > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > > (and > > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > > view > > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > ____________ __ > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > > Yahoo! FareChase. > > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with > Yahoo! Autos. > > http://autos. yahoo.com/ index.html > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, > and more! > http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/ 3658 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14383|14263|2007-09-19 14:42:16|brentswain38|Re: propellor shaft|Some rubber hose has no wire in it , some has lots. Get the stuff that has lots. Perhaps people considering ball bearings and oil seals should take a good look at what outboards use. The scrapyards often have bins full of lower outboard legs, for sale by the pound. Pick one with a shaft the size of your prop shaft or a size that your shaft can either be cut slightly down to, or sleeved up to. They have far more corrosion resistant bearings than many industrial ones.More compact too. Perhaps the roller bearings out of sheet winces would also work. An oil reservoir about a foot above the waterline , on the centreline would always have more pressure that the water trying to force it's way in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The number 1 problem I found was that you cannot see or feel the water > coming in once the boot is under water. I luckily remembered reading this > in a book somewhere, and after checking all the through hulls twice, and > could not find the leak, I was able to stick my fingers though the opening > to confirm the boot had failed. > > We were very lucky. The boot failed as we shifted into reverse as we pulled > into a yacht club - a rare event for us. The engine made a funny sound > which both I and my wife noticed, but we didn't register what had happened. > With all the pumps on and a couple of strong guys bailing with buckets we > were going down in a hurry > > I was able to spin the shaft by hand, with my head well and truly > underwater, and wind a piece of tarred marlin in though the rip, forming a > ball inside the boot, which the water pressure helped to seal. This kept us > afloat long enough to get the boat up against some piles with a dinghy. We > were doubly lucky that it was high tide, because for the next couple of > days, the water level inside the boat matched the outside. > > Given enough time we might have been able to come up with a better seal, but > there absolutely wasn't time for anything involved. You would need > something that can be done by one person, underwater holding their breath, > in the dark, quite possibly in a seaway, with maybe 5 minutes top to > complete the repairs. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:49 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 06:12:27PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > > > Greg has commented on the potential of failing rubber boots. If a > > traditional stuffing gland starts to leak,tighten the nuts and you > > have stemmed that flow. If you need to repack it at sea it can be > > done .You will get wet but you will save the day. Try replacing a > > rubber boot. Can't be done without disconnecting the shaft. > > Actually, wrapping the boot with a split bicycle tire (I always carry a > couple aboard - it's a good emergency fallback for failed pipes, hoses, > etc.) and clamping it off with hose clamps would work fine - assuming > that your boot is where you can reach it. Mine is easily accessible and > visible - the first time I had "Ulysses" hauled, I replaced the pipe > with a somewhat longer piece just for this purpose. > > > Now when you find raising water in the bilge you won't be frantic > > searching for the source. Once the water level is above any leak > > source you can't locate it easily just by looking, you have to feel > > for it while the panic levels increase. > > Pretty grim stuff, that; I've seen it happen on someone else's boat > (luckily, I managed to guess right - or there would have been an > additional bottom feature on Long Island Sound charts...) One of the > things that "Ulysses" came with that I really like is a big valve that > can switch the engine water pump intake to a BIG strainer in the bilge. > I hope I never have to use it, but it's a nice bit of backup security. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14384|14263|2007-09-19 14:45:32|brentswain38|Re: propellor shaft|A friend saw a 39 footer at the Seattle Boat Show that had 17 thru hulls, Arthur Bieser , self proclaimed expert author of "The Proper Yacht " bought a boat in Europe that had so many thru hulls, when she started to sink , he was unable to close all of them before she sank. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > | 14385|14345|2007-09-19 14:47:17|brentswain38|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|Steve tried that stuff on Silas Crosby but ended up dumping it quickly. He puts a lot of sea miles on her. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > > We have a conventional stuffing box arrangement with rings of packing with offset cuts BUT there is green TEFLON goo packed into the stuffing box. I found the teflon packing on the internet and the idea came from Nigel Calder's book. > The nut is finger tight plus a bit and the shaft runs cool with no dripping. The prop can be turned with one finger. > Steel boat in Deep Bay, Vancouver Island. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Wilson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements > > > I like your thinking Shane. I am working overseas now but I believe I have only have about ten inches between the gearbox and the stuffing box. I will check the dimensions more closely when I get home in about 4 weeks. I am swinging more and more towards the grease nipple on the old-style stuffing box idea. > > Cheers, Paul > > P.S. It's been fun diverting the thread from the airheads..... > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:20:49 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements > > Hi all. > > Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed > with the cost? For the commercial units on the market > I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if > you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive > shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a > couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? > Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive > shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one > where both universals have greese nipples > > Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt > hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun > hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near > the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of > greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be > expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an > hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material > in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give > it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under > power. > > Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a > couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in > the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor > the greese will not wash out. it works. > > Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of > everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the > engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy > virtually trouble free system. > > I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways > to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true > system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & > can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. > > Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys > have been working on has been perfected (which is > good, it's what this site is supposed to be about > isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts > of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech > support and of course a dedicated website to support > it all, and of course financing plans made availble to > all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit > always worked fine for me. > > Lets get back to the simplification of systems that > work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em > in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. > > E'nuf said, > Shane > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca > > __________________________________________________________ > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007 7:54 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14386|14263|2007-09-19 14:47:21|brentswain38|Re: propellor shaft|Leaks in the motors would be a much greater liability. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14387|14374|2007-09-19 14:49:38|brentswain38|Re: Ballast Lead|Same as the single keeler. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > I need to start acquiring lead for the Keel of a 40 footer. I got a > lead on Lead counter weights from a forklift scrapper. > > How many pounds of lead is needed for the 40 foot twin keel Swain design. > > Thanks, > > Brien > | 14388|14376|2007-09-19 14:55:36|brentswain38|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|Forgot all about it. You shoulda reminded us while it was still warm. Solid lifelines are also a good idea. Great to see the "Style over substance " crowd showing us how smart they are. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed > up? What were the results? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > http://www.youtube > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14389|14376|2007-09-19 14:59:02|brentswain38|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|I think that is obvious. 38 knots to windward would be total bullshit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > My best guess is that the 38 knot reading is the sustained apparent wind > speed that the boat is sailing in. > > Carl > > > Michael Casling wrote: > > > > > > There is zero chance of a steel boat like that, or any boat of those > > proportions doing 38 knots to windward, especially in large waves. Might > > I suggest that was the temperature in Fahrenheit. > > Those boats will not do 38 knots off the wind in a hurricane. > > > > Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:45 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent > > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed > > up? What were the results? > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > http://www.youtube > > > > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14390|14263|2007-09-19 18:07:17|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|How would their be a greater liability than sinking? I think that the tube for the wires could be epoxy filled. But if both leaked then the boat would be without power. Circut breakers would protect the electronics from a leak in the motors. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Leaks in the motors would be a much greater liability. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole in the hull. > > > audeojude wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > its just an annoyance. > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > water for best sailing performance. > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > to the swain boats. > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14391|14381|2007-09-19 21:24:16|seeratlas|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" like the PH's, wherever they are. aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger equals center exposed... pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas depending on construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a cross sea took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own a boat without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may vary. ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with ventilation etc. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center Cockpit > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to put it aft > or center? > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the world even > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14392|14345|2007-09-19 21:25:34|seeratlas|Re: Prop shaft arrangements|That reminds me, came across alex , steve and what looked like brent maybe on a daysail on Silas in some pretty good wind, 30knots or better I think. It's on Youtube. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Steve tried that stuff on Silas Crosby but ended up dumping it > quickly. He puts a lot of sea miles on her. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell > wrote: > > > > We have a conventional stuffing box arrangement with rings of > packing with offset cuts BUT there is green TEFLON goo packed into the > stuffing box. I found the teflon packing on the internet and the idea > came from Nigel Calder's book. > > The nut is finger tight plus a bit and the shaft runs cool with no > dripping. The prop can be turned with one finger. > > Steel boat in Deep Bay, Vancouver Island. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul Wilson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 5:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements > > > > > > I like your thinking Shane. I am working overseas now but I > believe I have only have about ten inches between the gearbox and the > stuffing box. I will check the dimensions more closely when I get home > in about 4 weeks. I am swinging more and more towards the grease > nipple on the old-style stuffing box idea. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > P.S. It's been fun diverting the thread from the airheads..... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:20:49 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop shaft arrangements > > > > Hi all. > > > > Impressed with the CV joint system but not impressed > > with the cost? For the commercial units on the market > > I understand as they charge the earth for them, but if > > you are building yourself, What, maybe $50 for a drive > > shaft out of a 5 ton truck from the wreckers & a > > couple of hours makeing the plates for mounting it? > > Maybe a days work for the lot? when buying the drive > > shaft of course- avoid ford like the plague & get one > > where both universals have greese nipples > > > > Also, a simple low teck stuffing box with a 1/4 npt > > hole drilled & tapped to take the end of a greese gun > > hose in it, a $10 (if that) greese gun mounted near > > the helm so that you can give it a shot or 2 of of > > greese - any greese is fine, it does not have to be > > expensive underwater greese as it is used up within an > > hour anyway and you have the basic stuffing material > > in there for lube, plus water for more lube. you give > > it a coupla pumps of greese every hour while under > > power. > > > > Want to stop the leak whilst at anchor? give it a > > couple of shots of greese to increase the pressure in > > the stuffing box. as it is not moving whilst at anchor > > the greese will not wash out. it works. > > > > Go oversized on the soft mounts, lube hell out of > > everything on a regular basis, change the oil in the > > engine on a regular basis & it really is a simple easy > > virtually trouble free system. > > > > I don't understand why you guys are looking for ways > > to complicate a really simple, cheap, tried & true > > system that you can easily build yourself, is cheap & > > can be repaired anywhere for a pittance. > > > > Or, once the homebuilt airhead system that you guys > > have been working on has been perfected (which is > > good, it's what this site is supposed to be about > > isn't it??) lets computerize it so we need all sorts > > of specialized expensive parts & chemicals, tech > > support and of course a dedicated website to support > > it all, and of course financing plans made availble to > > all....... I must be an odd ball, a bucket & chuckit > > always worked fine for me. > > > > Lets get back to the simplification of systems that > > work instead of the MONEY IS OUR GOD system of suck em > > in & rip em off - that's for the tupperware croud. > > > > E'nuf said, > > Shane > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk > email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail > yahoo.com/ try_beta? .intl=ca > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with > Yahoo! Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: > 9/15/2007 7:54 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14393|14393|2007-09-19 21:49:28|seeratlas|Interesting vid on storm at harbor:)|http://youtube.com/watch?v=JJwppTT3OWo and no, those aren't flags, remnants of 'securely wound up' roller furling gennies :) heheh In short, vid makes me appreciate the twin keel's design intended to take the hard :) this was a real mess. seer| 14394|14381|2007-09-19 21:52:58|seeratlas|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question seems to me.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > equals center exposed... > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas depending on > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a cross sea > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own a boat > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may vary. > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with ventilation > etc. > > seer > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center > Cockpit > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to > put it aft > > or center? > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > world even > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14395|14381|2007-09-19 21:56:19|Paul Wilson|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|I really like an aft cockpit with trim tab fitted with an outboard rudder and tiller. It is very easy to reach the steering gear and make course changes without having to climb over any obstructions like an aft cabin. I don't have the complexity and expense of the wheel and with simple, low-friction self steering, it is much more likely to actually steer the boat. If it is big enough, a center cockpit with wheel can have a great layout down below, but to me the sailing is what is important. Cheers, Paul can have a great layout if it is big enough----- Original Message ---- From: "TDPOPP@..." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:18:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best? What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center Cockpit with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to put it aft or center? Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... Tom Popp - KA0TP Small boat Sailer looking to move up... Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the world even on VHF. (See IRLP) ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at http://www.aol com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14396|14381|2007-09-19 22:46:03|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|Hi Paul, With Brent's boats you can have it all, PH, aft-cockpit, outboard rudder etc.. I totally agree with Seer I would not even consider going offshore without a PH. Like Seer I have been there, crossed the South Atlantic 4 times to date Cape Town SA, to South America and know exactly what it is like. Only if I always sailed in the Tropics would I consider a boat without a PH and even there, there are times when one would be very nice to have indeed. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > I really like an aft cockpit with trim tab fitted with an outboard rudder and tiller. It is very easy to reach the steering gear and make course changes without having to climb over any obstructions like an aft cabin. I don't have the complexity and expense of the wheel and with simple, low-friction self steering, it is much more likely to actually steer the boat. If it is big enough, a center cockpit with wheel can have a great layout down below, but to me the sailing is what is important. > > Cheers, Paul > | 14397|14381|2007-09-19 23:21:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 01:21:54AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" > like the PH's, wherever they are. Ditto. In fact, the layout I've got now - center doghouse - is what I'm eyeing for my next major project. "Ulysses" has a deep cockpit and bulletproof glass in the doghouse - the Dutch have always had a pretty good clue about real sea conditions, given the Ijselmeer and such - and it won't take much to extend it. The only reason I haven't done it yet is that there have been times when I wanted to get to the foredeck RIGHT THE HELL NOW, and I don't like the idea of losing extra seconds in climbing up and out of a pilothouse. But I do keep turning it in my mind, regularly. > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > equals center exposed... I have to agree that this is a weakness in anything but a pilothouse. I took a bad breaking sea once - two waves "stacked" in a blow in the Gulf Stream - that rolled solid green over the deck, around the doghouse, up over the tall coaming, and filled the cockpit (that takes just a bit over three tons of water, I figured out later.) It took about 20 seconds for the deck to clear itself of the water, and about another minute after that for the cockpit to finish draining... I'll tell you, there are times when it's *very* nice to know that your boat is built from steel. :) Looking forward and seeing nothing except your mast sticking out of the ocean for a number of seconds isn't an inspiring sight when you're a hundred-plus miles from land. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14398|14381|2007-09-19 23:29:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 02:44:20PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Paul, > > With Brent's boats you can have it all, PH, aft-cockpit, outboard rudder > etc.. I totally agree with Seer I would not even consider going > offshore without a PH. Like Seer I have been there, crossed the South > Atlantic 4 times to date Cape Town SA, to South America and know exactly > what it is like. Only if I always sailed in the Tropics would I consider > a boat without a PH and even there, there are times when one would be > very nice to have indeed. Moitessier describes an interesting approach - a sort of a micro pilothouse in his boat when he made a passage in the Southern Ocean. Basically, he had a second steering station just inside his companionway, and a heavy clear bubble built into the companionway hatch. He could stand or sit with his head up in the bubble and steer; no matter how bad the weather was, he'd stay dry. It's certainly not as convenient as a full pilothouse, but could be a relatively cheap mod for somebody who can figure out the fine bits of engineering to make it easy to use. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14399|14381|2007-09-20 00:56:14|Paul J. Thompson|Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under Linu|Hi Ben ( and any others who might be knowledgeable on this subject), I know that you are quite heavily involved with Linux (If I recall correctly, you are the editor of Linux Gazette?). So my query is primarily addressed to you. Do you know and are you using any charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software that runs under Linux? Not necessarily open source or free (as in beer) software, just good software that will get the job done in a Linux environment. Currently I use GPS Utility on a VMWare W2k virtual machine. it is a nice program but I would prefer to get away from windows if I can. I may not be able to do so entirely in my professional life (I am IT Manager and Sys Admin in a small mixed Windows/Linux shop) but if possible I would like to be Linux only in my private life. If you might have any idea's suggestions et al.. I would be keen to hear of them. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 14400|14400|2007-09-20 01:38:30|Alex Christie|micro pilothouse retrofit|Paul's mention of Moitessier's pilot house-like hatch bubble reminds me of something I try out in my mind's eye whenever I look at a used boat that has no pilot house, especially the plethora of 'glass boats for sale around here with regular coach cabins. I've looked at lots of boats out there with their highly vulnerable, wave-welcoming drop-board sliding hatch arrangment, and on each one I always paint into the picture a retrofit I've worked out in my mind. Basically one would remove the ridiculous hatcha and boards, including the wood sides for the drop boards, then build an aluminum bolt in (and bedded) unit which would mimic the back end of a brent boat pilot house. That is, a frame for the aluminum door, with a raised cupola. If the cupola was large enough, and had windows, then it could function similar to Moitessier's clear bubble in companionway hatch, only more permanent and rugged. The boat could be made impervious to being pooped and swamped. The structure could also have a hard dodger attached which would be nice too. I just watched a youtube video recently wherein the captain of a sailing vessel states blandly that they were pooped by a minor wave from the stern and it zapped their single sideband radio, meaning they could not longer communicate with the world. The wave came in, welcomed by the lovely open hatch that stood like an open mouth just asking for a nice wave to waltz in and soak everything. It is not 1842, why are people building boats of modern materials, yet at this one critical spot they don't make use of something as basic as welding (or even ply and epoxy) and make something impervious to waves?? I think I started to think of that retrofit while watching the people in the sailboat in "The Perfect Storm" movie. I kept staring at their stupid open hatch and thinking, "they might as well be in an open boat, for all purposes, since their cabin is so open to the elements." With the bolt in door frame and cupola mini pilot-house unit they could have taken down all sail, sealed themselves in, set out warps or a drogue if need be, and ridden out the storm playing magnetic checkers. I can't remember, I think they abandon the boat eventually or something, even though it is still afloat. Ridiculous. Staying warm and dry, what a concept! Pilot houses rock! PS my bare hull arrives at my new rental pad this Friday if all goes well, and work will recommence on her fit-out and completion, as well as filming for second film as soon as I work out what camera technology I'm going to try out. I'll also be carrying on with minor welding repairs to my other 36, "Shair" to replace some handrails, and getting her ready for sale. It'll be a busy fall here in the shipyard. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best? On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 02:44:20PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Paul, > > With Brent's boats you can have it all, PH, aft-cockpit, outboard rudder > etc.. I totally agree with Seer I would not even consider going > offshore without a PH. Like Seer I have been there, crossed the South > Atlantic 4 times to date Cape Town SA, to South America and know exactly > what it is like. Only if I always sailed in the Tropics would I consider > a boat without a PH and even there, there are times when one would be > very nice to have indeed. Moitessier describes an interesting approach - a sort of a micro pilothouse in his boat when he made a passage in the Southern Ocean. Basically, he had a second steering station just inside his companionway, and a heavy clear bubble built into the companionway hatch. He could stand or sit with his head up in the bubble and steer; no matter how bad the weather was, he'd stay dry. It's certainly not as convenient as a full pilothouse, but could be a relatively cheap mod for somebody who can figure out the fine bits of engineering to make it easy to use. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14401|14381|2007-09-20 03:07:30|Harry James|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |I use Sea Clear on windows and like it a lot, the web page says it runs on Wine. http://www.sping.com/seaclear/ HJ Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Ben ( and any others who might be knowledgeable on this subject), > > I know that you are quite heavily involved with Linux (If I recall > correctly, you are the editor of Linux Gazette?). So my query is > primarily addressed to you. > > Do you know and are you using any charting/plotting/piloting/GPS > software that runs under Linux? Not necessarily open source or free (as > in beer) software, just good software that will get the job done in a > Linux environment. Currently I use GPS Utility on a VMWare W2k virtual > machine. it is a nice program but I would prefer to get away from > windows if I can. I may not be able to do so entirely in my professional > life (I am IT Manager and Sys Admin in a small mixed Windows/Linux shop) > but if possible I would like to be Linux only in my private life. > > If you might have any idea's suggestions et al.. I would be keen to hear > of them. > | 14402|14381|2007-09-20 12:04:25|kwing175|Southern Atlantic Sailing video|> Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > seems to me.. > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > I spent a month on the pictured vessel sailing from Puerto Williams Chile to the Antartic pennesula and back. Great Crew, Capt. Steve (now owns his own boat for high latitude expeditions, http://www.xplore-expeditions.com/1-15991-The- yacht.php), Dave the mate and, Karen (at the helm in the video). All from New Zealand or Australia. Great, great, people to sail with. Vessel: Pelagic Australis, Owned by Skip Novak. Ocean racer, mountain climber, adventurer, author. Take a look at his Pelagic Expedtions web page, http://www.pelagic.co.uk/masterframe_fleet.htm. Pelagic Australis is the realizaion of Skip's experience after three or four round the world races in the southern oceans, 20 years of leading expeditions in high latitude sailing and, his love of mountain climbing in high latitudes. Skip's concepts were executed by naval architect Tony Castro, http://www.tonycastro.co.uk/projectsarticle.php?id=36 The vessel was built in South Africa. Pelagic Australis is aluminum. Skip's first expedition boat, Pelagic, is steel. Not cheap, first class, but what an experience. The video is representative of the comfort in which we sailed. A life changing experience. Keith| 14403|14376|2007-09-20 12:27:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|I was out sailing last night. It was plenty warm. Lots of wind. Very pleasant. The water temperature is unlikely to be this warm again until next June. A big part of the reason people have problems getting back aboard is because of the cold. Muscle strength drops quickly in cold water, as blood flows out of the extremities to preserve core temperature. If anything, the water is too warm to be a valid test for most of the year. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) Forgot all about it. You shoulda reminded us while it was still warm. Solid lifelines are also a good idea. Great to see the "Style over substance " crowd showing us how smart they are. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed > up? What were the results? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > http://www.youtube com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ> > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14404|14264|2007-09-20 12:29:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: propllor shaft|I like the idea of a conventional stuffing box solid mounted to the hull, with some sort of universal between the shaft and motor, to minimize alignment problems. Packing is pretty much bullet proof, available everywhere, and simple to service without hauling the boat or removing the shaft. Even with a floating stuffing box, the shaft is held in place at the end by the cutlass bearing. As a result, a soft mounted engine is almost never in alignment, as it moves around in a seaway. You need 1 universal (a rubber donut) between the transmission and shaft to allow for this, except maybe if the engine is very small. The floating stuffing box, on a rubber boot, likely came about because it was cheap and quick to install. Manufacturers adopted it for this reason, not because it was particularly safe. Most boats live at the dock, and very few go offshore. Some sailors I've talked to from other countries have been amazed to hear that the rubber boot, floating stuffing box is permitted in offshore boats. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Schnell Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft Hi Paul/Colin Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). This bolts to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my Velvet Drive transmission. I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. Hope that will work as planned. Comment and/or cautions?? Gord sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > but I can't confirm. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > Hi Paul > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > drive axle). > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > bearing. > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > - they probably think I'm daft too > > Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14405|14264|2007-09-20 14:57:50|brentswain38|Re: propllor shaft|I had a U joint on my last engine . It worked well, but I was told of someone who had double U joints on a short shaft in a wooden boat, When the outboard U joint failed,the shaft flailed a big hole in the hull, which is why they use CV joints . On a metal boat that wouldn't happen, but the piece of shaft would make a deadly missile if it came loose. A piece of 1/4 inch plate covering the works might be a good idea, and under it if the hull is not metal , or is thin metal. Front wheel drive vehicles have a short shaft with a CV joint on each end. This may be useable if you have the room fore and aft.The shaft can be cut and shortened. Very little water would get past my oilite stern bearing in my grease filled sterntube, if the rubber on my stuffin box failed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I like the idea of a conventional stuffing box solid mounted to the hull, > with some sort of universal between the shaft and motor, to minimize > alignment problems. Packing is pretty much bullet proof, available > everywhere, and simple to service without hauling the boat or removing the > shaft. > > Even with a floating stuffing box, the shaft is held in place at the end by > the cutlass bearing. As a result, a soft mounted engine is almost never in > alignment, as it moves around in a seaway. You need 1 universal (a rubber > donut) between the transmission and shaft to allow for this, except maybe if > the engine is very small. > > The floating stuffing box, on a rubber boot, likely came about because it > was cheap and quick to install. Manufacturers adopted it for this reason, > not because it was particularly safe. Most boats live at the dock, and very > few go offshore. Some sailors I've talked to from other countries have been > amazed to hear that the rubber boot, floating stuffing box is permitted in > offshore boats. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gordon Schnell > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:55 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > Hi Paul/Colin > Thought I'd throw in my "2 cents" here. For my prop shaft thrust > bearing, I'm using the hub assembly from the Dana 30 differential used > in the Jeep Cherokee 4WD frontend (because I have a few). They are > opposing taper bearings in a flanged casting (for mounting). This bolts > to the inside (front end) of the stern tube. Propshaft is splined and > threaded to match and slides thru the hub assembly and is secured with a > large locking nut. A VW front axle shaft couples the prop shaft to my > Velvet Drive transmission. > I'm pressing 2 lip seals into the stern tube immediately behind the hub > assembly and have inserted a grease nipple between them. > Hope that will work as planned. > Comment and/or cautions?? > Gord > > sae140 wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is flexible, > > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing this > > but I can't confirm. > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > Hi Paul > > > > Personally, I wouldn't use a lipseal on a shaft which is prone to any > > lateral movement, as this will undoubtedly shorten the seal's life. > > > > I guess everyone has their prejudices, and mine is to use soft (but > > not TOO soft) engine mountings, fitted with bridging chains or a > > similar breakaway precaution. Then the prop-shaft can simply be > > connected to the gearbox via a CV joint (ex vehicle propellor shaft or > > drive axle). > > I find Ford Sierra CV-axles to be ideal as they also have two > > back-to-back roller wheel-bearings adjacent to the CV joint, which are > > perfectly situated to function as a bi-directional prop-shaft thrust > > bearing. > > > > With that set-up, there are then several options available: a > > conventional stuffing-box, rigidly mounted, with no need for either a > > hose or any standing on yer head lining-up the drive train (!) or, 2 > > lip seals with or without a bearing on the inboard end (a method used > > on submarines I believe ?) with a plain bearing on the outboard end. > > > > I'm sure you could also pump the shaft tube full of heavy emulsifying > > oil or even grease. Belt and braces ... > > > > I can't understand how people can happily trust their boats (and their > > lives) to any mechanism stuck on the end of a flexible hose - but then > > - they probably think I'm daft too > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14406|14263|2007-09-20 15:04:01|brentswain38|Re: propellor shaft|Such an electric motor would make possible a pod type outboard leg arrangement in a well, which would enable you to lift the works when sailing.Unlike gas outboards there would be no limit on how deep you can put it , so you wouldn't have the problem of the prop kicking out in rough water, a common problem with outboards. The liability would be to the motor. The liklihood of a proper stuffing box arrangement sinking the boat is extremely low. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > How would their be a greater liability than sinking? > > I think that the tube for the wires could be epoxy filled. But if both leaked then the boat would be without power. Circut breakers would protect the electronics from a leak in the motors. > Aaron > > > brentswain38 wrote: > Leaks in the motors would be a much greater liability. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and > I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the > hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole > in the hull. > > > > > > audeojude wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" > wrote: > > > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > > its just an annoyance. > > > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > > water for best sailing performance. > > > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > > to the swain boats. > > > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14407|14381|2007-09-20 15:05:48|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|Pilot houses in the cockpit can be much cooler than frying in an open cockpit. Done that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > equals center exposed... > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas depending on > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a cross sea > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own a boat > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may vary. > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with ventilation > etc. > > seer > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center > Cockpit > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to > put it aft > > or center? > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > world even > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14408|14393|2007-09-20 15:12:05|brentswain38|Re: Interesting vid on storm at harbor:)|Damned foools still don't put enough keels on their boats. Furlers have a much better chance of survival if they do enough turns to wrap all the sheets around the sail, something most people refuse to do. However, when you have enough warning of a hurricane approaching, the only place for any sails is down below. You sure aren't gonna have any use for them in a hurricane. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=JJwppTT3OWo > > and no, those aren't flags, remnants of 'securely wound up' roller > furling gennies :) heheh > > In short, vid makes me appreciate the twin keel's design intended to > take the hard :) this was a real mess. > > seer > | 14409|14381|2007-09-20 15:14:05|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|A jogstick powering a trim tab is sure a lot easier than pumping constantly on that wheel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > seems to me.. > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, > > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" > > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > > equals center exposed... > > > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas depending on > > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a cross sea > > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own a boat > > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may > vary. > > > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with ventilation > > etc. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center > > Cockpit > > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to > > put it aft > > > or center? > > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > > world even > > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14410|14400|2007-09-20 15:24:48|brentswain38|Re: micro pilothouse retrofit|That's been done. After a trip down the coast to California, with a tandard , grossly outdated sliding hatch arrangement, Eclectus had a complete aluninium arrangement bolted to the back ,containing door, cupola, frame etc, making it back into a brentboat. Cupolas with flat surfaces are easier to replace , or eburglar proof and have less glare than the plexi domes the french use. I once converted a Hutton boat to a proper door arrangement. It had a vertical back to the cabin. I put a couple of plates either side to the bridgedeck and cut them to the proper slope , then built the cupola and door frame on that. The slope is crucial to make it easy to get in and out of. Vertical or near vertical doors don't work to well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Paul's mention of Moitessier's pilot house-like hatch bubble reminds me of something I try out in my mind's eye whenever I look at a > used boat that has no pilot house, especially the plethora of 'glass boats for sale around here with regular coach cabins. I've looked at lots of boats out there with their highly vulnerable, wave-welcoming drop-board sliding hatch arrangment, and on each one I always paint into the picture a retrofit I've worked out in my mind. Basically one would remove the ridiculous hatcha and boards, including the wood sides for the drop boards, then build an aluminum bolt in (and bedded) unit which would mimic the back end of a brent boat pilot house. That is, a frame for the aluminum door, with a raised cupola. If the cupola was large enough, and had windows, then it could function similar to Moitessier's clear bubble in companionway hatch, only more permanent and rugged. The boat could be made impervious to being pooped and swamped. The structure could also have a hard dodger attached which would be nice too. > > I just watched a youtube video recently wherein the captain of a sailing vessel states blandly that they were pooped by a minor wave from the stern and it zapped their single sideband radio, meaning they could not longer communicate with the world. The wave came in, welcomed by the lovely open hatch that stood like an open mouth just asking for a nice wave to waltz in and soak everything. It is not 1842, why are people building boats of modern materials, yet at this one critical spot they don't make use of something as basic as welding (or even ply and epoxy) and make something impervious to waves?? I think I started to think of that retrofit while watching the people in the sailboat in "The Perfect Storm" movie. I kept staring at their stupid open hatch and thinking, "they might as well be in an open boat, for all purposes, since their cabin is so open to the elements." With the bolt in door frame and cupola mini pilot-house unit they could have taken down all sail, sealed themselves in, set out warps or a drogue if need be, and ridden out the storm playing magnetic checkers. I can't remember, I think they abandon the boat eventually or something, even though it is still afloat. Ridiculous. > > Staying warm and dry, what a concept! Pilot houses rock! > > PS my bare hull arrives at my new rental pad this Friday if all goes well, and work will recommence on her fit-out and completion, as well as filming for second film as soon as I work out what camera technology I'm going to try out. I'll also be carrying on with minor welding repairs to my other 36, "Shair" to replace some handrails, and getting her ready for sale. It'll be a busy fall here in the shipyard. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:32 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best? > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 02:44:20PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > > With Brent's boats you can have it all, PH, aft-cockpit, outboard rudder > > etc.. I totally agree with Seer I would not even consider going > > offshore without a PH. Like Seer I have been there, crossed the South > > Atlantic 4 times to date Cape Town SA, to South America and know exactly > > what it is like. Only if I always sailed in the Tropics would I consider > > a boat without a PH and even there, there are times when one would be > > very nice to have indeed. > > Moitessier describes an interesting approach - a sort of a micro > pilothouse in his boat when he made a passage in the Southern Ocean. > Basically, he had a second steering station just inside his > companionway, and a heavy clear bubble built into the companionway > hatch. He could stand or sit with his head up in the bubble and steer; > no matter how bad the weather was, he'd stay dry. > > It's certainly not as convenient as a full pilothouse, but could be a > relatively cheap mod for somebody who can figure out the fine bits of > engineering to make it easy to use. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14411|14400|2007-09-20 15:52:15|seeratlas|Re: micro pilothouse retrofit|Alex, unless you want to go Hi def, I would suggest you take a look at the new harddrive cam corders. Many can do 7 hours of hq recording and you simply download onto your computers hd and edit. no tapes, no disks etc. If you buy online, you can get very reasonable prices, and several models include the harddrive that senses free fall and parks the heads within a few milliseconds. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Paul's mention of Moitessier's pilot house-like hatch bubble reminds me of something I try out in my mind's eye whenever I look at a > used boat that has no pilot house, especially the plethora of 'glass boats for sale around here with regular coach cabins. I've looked at lots of boats out there with their highly vulnerable, wave-welcoming drop-board sliding hatch arrangment, and on each one I always paint into the picture a retrofit I've worked out in my mind. Basically one would remove the ridiculous hatcha and boards, including the wood sides for the drop boards, then build an aluminum bolt in (and bedded) unit which would mimic the back end of a brent boat pilot house. That is, a frame for the aluminum door, with a raised cupola. If the cupola was large enough, and had windows, then it could function similar to Moitessier's clear bubble in companionway hatch, only more permanent and rugged. The boat could be made impervious to being pooped and swamped. The structure could also have a hard dodger attached which would be nice too. > > I just watched a youtube video recently wherein the captain of a sailing vessel states blandly that they were pooped by a minor wave from the stern and it zapped their single sideband radio, meaning they could not longer communicate with the world. The wave came in, welcomed by the lovely open hatch that stood like an open mouth just asking for a nice wave to waltz in and soak everything. It is not 1842, why are people building boats of modern materials, yet at this one critical spot they don't make use of something as basic as welding (or even ply and epoxy) and make something impervious to waves?? I think I started to think of that retrofit while watching the people in the sailboat in "The Perfect Storm" movie. I kept staring at their stupid open hatch and thinking, "they might as well be in an open boat, for all purposes, since their cabin is so open to the elements." With the bolt in door frame and cupola mini pilot-house unit they could have taken down all sail, sealed themselves in, set out warps or a drogue if need be, and ridden out the storm playing magnetic checkers. I can't remember, I think they abandon the boat eventually or something, even though it is still afloat. Ridiculous. > > Staying warm and dry, what a concept! Pilot houses rock! > > PS my bare hull arrives at my new rental pad this Friday if all goes well, and work will recommence on her fit-out and completion, as well as filming for second film as soon as I work out what camera technology I'm going to try out. I'll also be carrying on with minor welding repairs to my other 36, "Shair" to replace some handrails, and getting her ready for sale. It'll be a busy fall here in the shipyard. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:32 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best? > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 02:44:20PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > > With Brent's boats you can have it all, PH, aft-cockpit, outboard rudder > > etc.. I totally agree with Seer I would not even consider going > > offshore without a PH. Like Seer I have been there, crossed the South > > Atlantic 4 times to date Cape Town SA, to South America and know exactly > > what it is like. Only if I always sailed in the Tropics would I consider > > a boat without a PH and even there, there are times when one would be > > very nice to have indeed. > > Moitessier describes an interesting approach - a sort of a micro > pilothouse in his boat when he made a passage in the Southern Ocean. > Basically, he had a second steering station just inside his > companionway, and a heavy clear bubble built into the companionway > hatch. He could stand or sit with his head up in the bubble and steer; > no matter how bad the weather was, he'd stay dry. > > It's certainly not as convenient as a full pilothouse, but could be a > relatively cheap mod for somebody who can figure out the fine bits of > engineering to make it easy to use. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 18/09/2007 11:53 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14412|14381|2007-09-20 16:01:12|seeratlas|Re: Southern Atlantic Sailing video|This group has some serious depth to it :) I for one am glad you are all here. There is nothing more frustrating that trying to conduct a serious discussion on subjects with potentially life threatening consequences with the "expert" who has a big wallet and 2 days on the water experience :(. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kwing175" wrote: > > > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other > vid > > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > > seems to me.. > > > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > > > > I spent a month on the pictured vessel sailing from Puerto Williams > Chile to the Antartic pennesula and back. > > Great Crew, Capt. Steve (now owns his own boat for high latitude > expeditions, http://www.xplore-expeditions.com/1-15991-The- > yacht.php), Dave the mate and, Karen (at the helm in the video). All > from New Zealand or Australia. Great, great, people to sail with. > > Vessel: Pelagic Australis, Owned by Skip Novak. Ocean racer, > mountain climber, adventurer, author. Take a look at his Pelagic > Expedtions web page, http://www.pelagic.co.uk/masterframe_fleet.htm. > > Pelagic Australis is the realizaion of Skip's experience after three > or four round the world races in the southern oceans, 20 years of > leading expeditions in high latitude sailing and, his love of > mountain climbing in high latitudes. > > Skip's concepts were executed by naval architect Tony Castro, > http://www.tonycastro.co.uk/projectsarticle.php?id=36 > > The vessel was built in South Africa. Pelagic Australis is aluminum. > Skip's first expedition boat, Pelagic, is steel. > > Not cheap, first class, but what an experience. The video is > representative of the comfort in which we sailed. A life changing > experience. > > Keith > | 14413|14376|2007-09-20 16:21:37|seeratlas|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|I can attest to what Greg is saying. I have some pictures around here somewhere that show me working on the foredeck in a storm, then a flash of green water, and an empty space where I had been a second before. The force you get hit with doesn't have to be imagined, just go down to the beach during a blow, wade out a bit and try to stand still in the face of a breaker, you'll get the idea.. The affect of cold water comes in two doses, first, if its cold enough when you hit it and you are not experienced, you are likely to 'gasp' which will cause you to aspirate an enormous amount of sea water, this is not good...it can cause what amounts to a momentary paralysis, and you might very well black out and drown. Second, assuming you make it past 'impact' the strength in your hands and arms will dissipate so fast it will amaze you, (again we're talking cold water here, not the tropics, or even moderate lats). If you don't have help and can't get out of the water fast...unless your body has been trained to work in the cold, you will quickly end up a towed drogue or worse, a sportfisherman's 'teaser'. 'short' leads to your harness and solid rails is the way to go. Just go out in warm water, jump over the side and try and climb back on board your boat without using a ladder. Then imagine having just gotten knocked on your ass by a breaker, smashing thru the lifelines perhaps injuring your hand, arm, leg or shoulder, being towed at anything over 3 knots and add in 50 degree or colder water..and you get the picture. It is dangerous to assume that the rest of the crew on board will automatically save you, you could be on watch and everyone else asleep, or maybe just playing cards below and not even hear of your departure... with a ph :) you'd have been dealt your own hand :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I was out sailing last night. It was plenty warm. Lots of wind. Very > pleasant. The water temperature is unlikely to be this warm again until > next June. > > A big part of the reason people have problems getting back aboard is because > of the cold. Muscle strength drops quickly in cold water, as blood flows > out of the extremities to preserve core temperature. If anything, the water > is too warm to be a valid test for most of the year. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:55 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > Forgot all about it. You shoulda reminded us while it was still warm. > Solid lifelines are also a good idea. > Great to see the "Style over substance " crowd showing us how smart > they are. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. > Weren't Brent > > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the > water warmed > > up? What were the results? > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ> > > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14414|14263|2007-09-20 16:32:55|Aaron Williams|Re: propellor shaft|I was thinking of mounting 2 motors just inside the aft end of each keel to center. Looks like they woul be well protected there and the the flow pattern would be simiular to that of a industrial air mover. That would help give more manuverability in tight places. I know it's a break from tried and proven methodes and I did say almost convinced. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Such an electric motor would make possible a pod type outboard leg arrangement in a well, which would enable you to lift the works when sailing.Unlike gas outboards there would be no limit on how deep you can put it , so you wouldn't have the problem of the prop kicking out in rough water, a common problem with outboards. The liability would be to the motor. The liklihood of a proper stuffing box arrangement sinking the boat is extremely low. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > How would their be a greater liability than sinking? > > I think that the tube for the wires could be epoxy filled. But if both leaked then the boat would be without power. Circut breakers would protect the electronics from a leak in the motors. > Aaron > > > brentswain38 wrote: > Leaks in the motors would be a much greater liability. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > I have been looking at the electric motors for awhile now myself and > I am almost convince to go with a pair. If they can be welded to the > hull then the hole for the wires would no longer be a true thru-hole > in the hull. > > > > > > audeojude wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" > wrote: > > > > > > Seems to me we build our hulls of the ultimate material, plate steel, > > > then often compromise that with gay abandon. > > > > > > There is need for one thru hull only, the prop shaft. > > > > A boat should only have one hole through the hull. A water intake for > > your sink or head (if the head is of a standard holding tank variety). > > And maybe for your deck wash down hose to wash the anchor of mud as > > you pull it up. If its a very large boat then by all means put more > > than one water box in with standpipe. It just makes so much sense. > > even if it fails it is not a big deal and doesn't threaten the boat. > > its just an annoyance. > > > > I'm sorry but having a rotating shaft penetrating the hull of my boat > > just gives me the willies. Percentage wise it is fairly reliable > > technology but it is still the most major risk a boat has for sinking. > > I just read gregs account and can give you at least 4 others given by > > people I know locally that have almost sunk and or sunk boats because > > of a prop shaft seal or the shaft itself falling out. > > > > The technology is now off the shelf available to build a boat with a > > drive that doesn't have a shaft through the hull. The one I like the > > Most is from Re-e-power.com You can bolt or weld these units to the > > bottom of your boat so that you have your motor and prop under the > > boat. :) even adds the engine weight down low. Go for twin props and > > engines and you have great control. These engines are able to do > > regenerative charging while under sail. If you go for a big battery > > bank you can just desgin the batterys into the bottom of the hull as > > part of your ballast. Or you can go for a diesel electric setup. The > > engine can be located anywhere. Keel or skeg cooled with dry exhaust. > > > > My preferred solution would not even having engine pods bolted to th > > bottom of the boat. you still have at the minimum one small hole > > drilled through for the power to be wired to the motor. Just mount the > > engine on a slide or rotating mount on the transom so that when under > > power the engine is in the water and when sailing you can pull the > > engine/engines out of the water totally. I can think of a great system > > for this that is strong and simple. Heavy mounts about 2/3 the way > > down the transom on port and starboard. The engines mounted on one end > > of a massively strong strut/beam and on the other end a hole that a > > massive pin goes through to attach to your mount on the transom. the > > engine can piviot 180 degrees up from the water to where in the up > > position it ends up just above deck level locked in place. you can now > > work on the engine or do maintenance. In the down position you have a > > big spring loaded pin that locks the beam the engine is mounted on in > > the down position with the engine/engines as far below the waterline > > as you wish to design. You can still use them for generating power if > > left down while sailing or you can take the engine and prop out of the > > water for best sailing performance. > > > > The cost of a diesel generator plus electric motors is not going to be > > as cheap as a home brew diesel installed the traditional way. But if > > your talking new engines you could probably come in close to the cost > > of a new diesel engine for the whole setup. > > > > Doing the twin engine setup also gives you better control while under > > power as well as the redundancy of two drive motors. If also go with > > the larger battery bank that you can drive the motors off of directly > > you have some redundancy there. If you diesel generator engine dies > > you can still have 3 or 4 hours power and the engines will charge > > this bank on a long voyage plus maybe solar cells. > > > > This setup appeals to my sense of redundancy and safty. I also like > > the idea of a totally silent propulsion when on battery power. > > re-e-power.com are also offering nice warranties on the systems sized > > to the swain boats. > > > > I haven't used or seen one of these engines used other than in the > > videos they have put out on their site and youtube so. I am thinking I > > would like to put one of the smaller ones on my current boat though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14415|14381|2007-09-20 16:35:07|seeratlas|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|For those who don't know what Brent is talking about, in the archives somewhere is a series of posts where I and others asked him for a recommendation on a foolproof and simple way of engineering steering of an outboard rudder into a PH. His response was elegant in its simplicity and the icing on the cake was the ability to use a very inexpensive ramrod type autopilot mounted inside the ph out of the weather and utilizing miniscule amounts of electricity due to the efficiency of activating a trim tab as opposed to the rudder directly. I think the system also appears in the latest version of his book. However, Given the apparent size of the boat in the video, and not knowing what kind of rudder arrangment she has, I wasn't surprised at what appeared to me to be a formidable hydraulic steering system:) For what its worth, I'm going to try to engineer Brent's system on my next boat, a '40 something' schooner:) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A jogstick powering a trim tab is sure a lot easier than pumping > constantly on that wheel. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > > seems to me.. > > > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > > > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell you, > > > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I "REALLY" > > > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > > > > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > > > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > > > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > > > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > > > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > > > equals center exposed... > > > > > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas depending on > > > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a cross sea > > > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > > > > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own a boat > > > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may > > vary. > > > > > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with ventilation > > > etc. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center > > > Cockpit > > > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to > > > put it aft > > > > or center? > > > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > > > world even > > > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 14416|14381|2007-09-20 17:48:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 04:53:29PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Ben ( and any others who might be knowledgeable on this subject), > > I know that you are quite heavily involved with Linux (If I recall > correctly, you are the editor of Linux Gazette?). Yep, that's me. :) > So my query is > primarily addressed to you. > > Do you know and are you using any charting/plotting/piloting/GPS > software that runs under Linux? Not necessarily open source or free (as > in beer) software, just good software that will get the job done in a > Linux environment. Currently I use GPS Utility on a VMWare W2k virtual > machine. it is a nice program but I would prefer to get away from > windows if I can. I may not be able to do so entirely in my professional > life (I am IT Manager and Sys Admin in a small mixed Windows/Linux shop) > but if possible I would like to be Linux only in my private life. > > If you might have any idea's suggestions et al.. I would be keen to hear > of them. I've mentioned before, in this forum, that I primarily use electronic charts for pre-trip plotting, etc., and stick to paper charts once underway - so despite the tons of Linux experience, I don't know how helpful my advice will be. Given that caveat: I use 'xtide' for my tide and current predictions, and 'mxmap' for charting. The latter hasn't been updated in years - the authors (Mayko) seem to have just disappeared - but it does everything it should, and a few things that nobody mentions. E.g., if you take a digital image of any chart, then tell 'mxmap' the lat and long of two diagonally-opposed corners, it'll let you plot on that image just like it does on any "standard" chart. There's NO way in hell that any commercial software is going to let you do that - they want to sell you their charts - but with 'mxmap', you can download all the free charts from NOAA/DMA, and never pay for a chart again. It does both raster and vector types, allows you to hook a GPS into it... all the goodies. Although the documentation sucks, the software itself is nicely intuitive. http://fresh.t-systems-sfr.com/linux/src/mxmap-1.0.2-linux-x86-glibc-dyn.tar.gz/ There are lots of other goodies like 'gpsd', 'gpsdrive', etc, but I've spent only minimal time exploring those; I've got everything I need from the above two. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14417|14187|2007-09-20 19:47:56|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|Greg, I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away the CO2 generated. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > My first thought was that since the government never makes mistakes, these > devices must be OK. > > However, I checked the regulations. Airhead is approved as a type 3 > device, > in that: > > 1. used solely for the storage of waste. > 2. designed to prevent the overboard discharge of waste. > > In other words, the Airhead is approved for marine use, so long as you use > if to store the waste. The Airhead is approved as a combined toilet and > holding tank. If you go to a pump-out station and empty it, or take the > waste container ashore and empty it into a sanitary system, them > everything > is approved and OK. As soon as you dump the waste over the side, you are > in > violation of the regulations. > > The Airhead is a waterless marine head with a very small holding tank > attached, and is approved if you use it in that fashion. It is not > approved > for the discharge of composted waste overboard. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:58 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > Greg I hear what you are saying but i was under the impression that > the US govt has already set standards for effluents that can be met by > these airhead type installations.I'll have to go check the regs again > but i think several of these types of units have been approved by > various political entities. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: >> >> What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to > process >> the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the >> nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the > nutrients are >> exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will >> simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some > of them >> may well survive. >> >> This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board >> toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time > required >> to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are > likely >> to survive this process. >> >> Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding >> decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an > insulated >> composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw > insulation >> you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting > typically >> doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release > as CH4, >> etc. >> >> Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the > released >> gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an > aerator, and >> could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with > luck >> burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. >> >> Greg >> >> _____ >> >> From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas >> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> >> >> The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the >> environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the >> main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have >> understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present > at all >> times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong >> smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The > bacteria >> are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the >> conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. >> >> We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste > water from >> the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that >> seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, > but huge >> amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO >> biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That > permeate >> goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a > specific >> kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the >> bioreactor. >> >> I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the > microscope. >> It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of >> microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, > still has >> only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher >> level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because > this >> waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in > the first >> >> place. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "polaris041" com.au> >> To: > yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> Garry; >> Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some >> other microbial life that is benificial to the process. >> >> If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other >> mediums with successs. >> >> I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically >> about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those >> living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. >> >> I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; >> and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send >> them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. >> >> I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all >> get on with positive inputs and attitudes. >> >> How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what >> ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for >> what and who they are. period. >> >> later pol >> >> --- In origamiboats@ >> yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> > >> > Brent, >> > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs >> primarily >> > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. >> Peat moss >> > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my >> previous >> > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines >> to break >> > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding >> flats. I >> > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants >> get >> > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat >> moss to >> > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that >> traveled >> > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on >> the peat >> > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat >> moss won't >> > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't >> peat! >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14418|14187|2007-09-20 20:25:08|polaris041|Re: Airhead improvements|Not only that, but an induced air flow is benifical for the transportation of moisture out of the waste. As a large percentage of excrement is moisture.This will deplete the volume even more. Search 'clivus multrum' on google.Commercial composting toilets have been around for eons; but some authorities still have problems accepting them. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Greg, > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away > the CO2 generated. > > Gary H Lucas | 14419|14187|2007-09-21 02:25:32|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|I think the use of airhead type of toilets, both on land and at sea is, and should be, increasing. I plan to use it on my current 50 feet project. Also we have it in the group of houses I built 10 Years ago. One family produces something like 1 bag (appr. 5 kg-10 kg) per month. The solids are dry because of constant air flow down the toilet and that bag we simply put into our wood boiler (takes 1 meter wood logs) and it burns very smoothly. Most of the waste is paper. We got a permission to handle the solids like this when we started 10 years ago and it has worked perfect since then. The urine is separated into a tank and used as fertilizer on nearby farming fields or at our own lawn. Many cities in Europe use waste as fuel when burning it for electricity and heat for houses. The type of toilet we use is a porsalin (excuse my spelling...:-)), and you can see it on my webpage http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in Swedish unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För polaris041 Skickat: den 21 september 2007 02:25 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Not only that, but an induced air flow is benifical for the transportation of moisture out of the waste. As a large percentage of excrement is moisture.This will deplete the volume even more. Search 'clivus multrum' on google.Commercial composting toilets have been around for eons; but some authorities still have problems accepting them. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Greg, > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away > the CO2 generated. > > Gary H Lucas To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 2540 (20070919) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com| 14420|14187|2007-09-21 02:46:19|polaris041|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Well there you go fellas; Leif has given you the answer, burn it in your solid fuel stove, once dry. You all have solid fuel stoves, don't you? They are always included in drawing of layouts of vessels from your climes. I'll just have to take mine ashore and bury it. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Thomsen" wrote: > > I think the use of airhead type of toilets, both on land and at sea is, and > should be, increasing. I plan to use it on my current 50 feet project. Also > we have it in the group of houses I built 10 Years ago. One family produces > something like 1 bag (appr. 5 kg-10 kg) per month. The solids are dry > because of constant air flow down the toilet and that bag we simply put into > our wood boiler (takes 1 meter wood logs) and it burns very smoothly. Most > of the waste is paper. We got a permission to handle the solids like this > when we started 10 years ago and it has worked perfect since then. The urine > is separated into a tank and used as fertilizer on nearby farming fields or > at our own lawn. Many cities in Europe use waste as fuel when burning it for > electricity and heat for houses. The type of toilet we use is a porsalin > (excuse my spelling...:-)), and you can see it on my webpage > http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in Swedish > unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). > > /Leif > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För > polaris041 > Skickat: den 21 september 2007 02:25 > Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > Not only that, but an induced air flow is benifical for the > transportation of moisture out of the waste. As a large percentage of > excrement is moisture.This will deplete the volume even more. > Search 'clivus multrum' on google.Commercial composting toilets have > been around for eons; but some authorities still have problems > accepting them. > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > Greg, > > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you > don't like > > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in > question. In > > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the > first one > > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course > you need to > > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How > exactly is > > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of > use worse > > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air > head, and > > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more > exactly > > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic > digestion > > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there > is a good > > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is > that the CO2 > > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen > levels and > > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect > that the > > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air > head is not > > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in > fresh > > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure > that air is > > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply > carrying away > > the CO2 generated. > > > > Gary H Lucas > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > __________ NOD32 2540 (20070919) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > | 14421|14187|2007-09-21 02:47:48|jim_both|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Thanks Leif; how good is that??!! Do you buy the components off the shelf in Sweden or fabricate them yourself? Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Thomsen" wrote: > > I think the use of airhead type of toilets, both on land and at sea is, and > should be, increasing. I plan to use it on my current 50 feet project. Also > we have it in the group of houses I built 10 Years ago. One family produces > something like 1 bag (appr. 5 kg-10 kg) per month. The solids are dry > because of constant air flow down the toilet and that bag we simply put into > our wood boiler (takes 1 meter wood logs) and it burns very smoothly. Most > of the waste is paper. We got a permission to handle the solids like this > when we started 10 years ago and it has worked perfect since then. The urine > is separated into a tank and used as fertilizer on nearby farming fields or > at our own lawn. Many cities in Europe use waste as fuel when burning it for > electricity and heat for houses. The type of toilet we use is a porsalin > (excuse my spelling...:-)), and you can see it on my webpage > http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in Swedish > unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). > > /Leif | 14422|14187|2007-09-21 02:56:49|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Toilets are standard off the shelf. The rest is using standard building components like ventilation and also the aerobic type of treatment of the grey water. Quite simple actual but the building industry in Sweden is quite old fashion and dislike new ideas :-), but these houses got me the local governmental environmental yearly price in 2001 and since then I have had numerous visitors, so hopefully more people will use the solutions in the future. Energy wise we only use a fraction of a "normal" house in Sweden, due to the solutions with solar panels, well insulated houses, wood burning, etc. /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För jim_both Skickat: den 21 september 2007 08:47 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Thanks Leif; how good is that??!! Do you buy the components off the shelf in Sweden or fabricate them yourself? Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Thomsen" wrote: > > I think the use of airhead type of toilets, both on land and at sea is, and > should be, increasing. I plan to use it on my current 50 feet project. Also > we have it in the group of houses I built 10 Years ago. One family produces > something like 1 bag (appr. 5 kg-10 kg) per month. The solids are dry > because of constant air flow down the toilet and that bag we simply put into > our wood boiler (takes 1 meter wood logs) and it burns very smoothly. Most > of the waste is paper. We got a permission to handle the solids like this > when we started 10 years ago and it has worked perfect since then. The urine > is separated into a tank and used as fertilizer on nearby farming fields or > at our own lawn. Many cities in Europe use waste as fuel when burning it for > electricity and heat for houses. The type of toilet we use is a porsalin > (excuse my spelling...:-)), and you can see it on my webpage > http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in Swedish > unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). > > /Leif To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 2540 (20070919) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com | 14423|14187|2007-09-21 04:22:01|jim_both|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Some additional information about the ecology of composting: http://www.tve.org/ho/doc.cfm?aid=573| 14424|14187|2007-09-21 11:35:43|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|NO2 and CO2 are byproducts of aerobic composting. Both are heavier than air and will inhibit further aerobic composting in a confined space. CH4 , H2S (and likely NH3) are byproducts of anaerobic composting and are lighter than air. H2S and NH3 for sure will smell. I would expect the purpose of the fan is to primarily reduce the volume of the waste through evaporation. Second, to minimize odors through dilution - mixing the byproduct gasses with a large volume of outside air. Third, to minimize available moisture and to minimize composting and thus minimize the production of gasses. Fourth, where composting does take place, to promote aerobic composting rather than anaerobic, to minimize released odors. Given the low temperature nature of the compost, it is unlikely that composting will progress very far within a month except perhaps in summer. I would expect that the primary function of the airhead is to remove moisture and thereby reduce volume. In this way, the carbon and nitrogen remain in the waste, rather than being released into the atmosphere. Given the cold, wet nature of our climate, I would see a fan as a critical component of the airhead. It is unlikely that sufficient evaporation would take place without out it, and likely the toilet will not work as intended. To my mind, the arhead is primarily an evaporator, because at low temperatures there isn't enough time to effectively compost the waste. However, this doesn't mean this is a problem. Evaporation is a valid way to reduce the volume of waste, prior to disposal on land, or in preparation for burning. Composting is not a good way to prepare waste for burning, as the composting itself has already effectively burned the waste and removed the available energy. As well, composting creates byproduct gasses, which are a problem. In desert regions, odors are typically a lot less of a problem than they are in wet areas. Without sufficient moisture, composting (rot) is minimized and mummification is more typical. Without rot, the production of byproduct gasses and odors is minimized. To my mind, to get the maximum benefit from a toilet such as the airhead, recognize that it is primarily an evaporator and dilutor, and optimize the installation along those lines. You should minimize composting, as this is likely to produce gasses, many of which will smell. Where composting cannot be avoided, optimize the toilet for aerobic composting over anaerobic composting. A small fan would appear to be the solution to all these goals. To summarize, the priorities should be: 1. Evaporator 2. Dilutor 3. Minimize composting (rot) to minimize produced gasses 4. Promote aerobic over anaerobic composting, as some rot is unavoidable. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 5:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Not only that, but an induced air flow is benifical for the transportation of moisture out of the waste. As a large percentage of excrement is moisture.This will deplete the volume even more. Search 'clivus multrum' on google.Commercial composting toilets have been around for eons; but some authorities still have problems accepting them. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Greg, > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away > the CO2 generated. > > Gary H Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14425|14400|2007-09-21 11:36:43|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: micro pilothouse retrofit|The chain of "Video ONLY" Stores are advertising the Hard Drive Cameras for $499 - 7 hours of video on an HD isn't too bad. Tom Popp - KA0TP Small boat Sailer looking to move up... Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the world even on VHF. (See IRLP) (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/14411;_ylc=X3oDMTJyYzN2NHBoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUwODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE0NDEx BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTAzNjkxMzE-) Posted by: "seeratlas" _seeratlas@... _ (mailto:seeratlas@...?Subject= Re:%20micro%20pilothouse%20retrofit) _seeratlas _ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/seeratlas) Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:52 pm (PST) Alex, unless you want to go Hi def, I would suggest you take a look at the new harddrive cam corders. Many can do 7 hours of hq recording and you simply download onto your computers hd and edit. no tapes, no disks etc. If you buy online, you can get very reasonable prices, and several models include the harddrive that senses free fall and parks the heads within a few milliseconds. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14426|14426|2007-09-21 11:36:51|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|FW: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|correction, H2S is slightly heavier than air, g _____ From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:43 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements NO2 and CO2 are byproducts of aerobic composting. Both are heavier than air and will inhibit further aerobic composting in a confined space. CH4 , H2S (and likely NH3) are byproducts of anaerobic composting and are lighter than air. H2S and NH3 for sure will smell. I would expect the purpose of the fan is to primarily reduce the volume of the waste through evaporation. Second, to minimize odors through dilution - mixing the byproduct gasses with a large volume of outside air. Third, to minimize available moisture and to minimize composting and thus minimize the production of gasses. Fourth, where composting does take place, to promote aerobic composting rather than anaerobic, to minimize released odors. Given the low temperature nature of the compost, it is unlikely that composting will progress very far within a month except perhaps in summer. I would expect that the primary function of the airhead is to remove moisture and thereby reduce volume. In this way, the carbon and nitrogen remain in the waste, rather than being released into the atmosphere. Given the cold, wet nature of our climate, I would see a fan as a critical component of the airhead. It is unlikely that sufficient evaporation would take place without out it, and likely the toilet will not work as intended. To my mind, the arhead is primarily an evaporator, because at low temperatures there isn't enough time to effectively compost the waste. However, this doesn't mean this is a problem. Evaporation is a valid way to reduce the volume of waste, prior to disposal on land, or in preparation for burning. Composting is not a good way to prepare waste for burning, as the composting itself has already effectively burned the waste and removed the available energy. As well, composting creates byproduct gasses, which are a problem. In desert regions, odors are typically a lot less of a problem than they are in wet areas. Without sufficient moisture, composting (rot) is minimized and mummification is more typical. Without rot, the production of byproduct gasses and odors is minimized. To my mind, to get the maximum benefit from a toilet such as the airhead, recognize that it is primarily an evaporator and dilutor, and optimize the installation along those lines. You should minimize composting, as this is likely to produce gasses, many of which will smell. Where composting cannot be avoided, optimize the toilet for aerobic composting over anaerobic composting. A small fan would appear to be the solution to all these goals. To summarize, the priorities should be: 1. Evaporator 2. Dilutor 3. Minimize composting (rot) to minimize produced gasses 4. Promote aerobic over anaerobic composting, as some rot is unavoidable. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 5:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Not only that, but an induced air flow is benifical for the transportation of moisture out of the waste. As a large percentage of excrement is moisture.This will deplete the volume even more. Search 'clivus multrum' on google.Commercial composting toilets have been around for eons; but some authorities still have problems accepting them. later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Greg, > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away > the CO2 generated. > > Gary H Lucas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14427|14323|2007-09-21 11:37:42|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|Hi Tom, I have one of those metal cutting blades for my skilsaw. THe first time I used it was to cut a decorative fence for a friend of mine. THe fence was made of 1/4 steel. It cut it quite easily. THe next time I used it, I was trying to cut 3/16 and it didn't do so well.....I think the 1/4 may have done it in. I haven't used it since, but one of these days I'll try it on some thinner stuff. I think it would be great for long straight cuts in material less than 3/16. If I recall, I paid about US$50. Cheers Paul > Hello All > Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting skillsaws and if > it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? > Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd nibbler or shear on > the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated at 3/16" but they are quite > expensive. Ive got one comming its a dewalt shear rated to 14gage. I do a lot of > work in 16 gage so Im hoping it works as advertized, right now I use a hand > compound shear" looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work using them. > On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side tracked, wanted to > get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the next and I ended up with a > small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. > Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the prices for 316 > stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then about $200 for the > end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" x 6' for around $2000 seemed a > bit outrages to me. To start with Im going to make 2 1" x 10' for the side > decks and see how it goes. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14428|14187|2007-09-21 11:37:52|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Airhead improvements|I agree. I have no objection against the Airhead. What I objected to was dumping the waste/compost in the water. I have no objection to dumping compost on land, so long as it is far enough away from a water and food supply, to allow nature to run its course. Greg ps: From what I can see from reading the regulations, urine can likely go overboard so long as it does not come into contact with feces. There is also what looks like a loophole in the regulations. If a toilet mixes a whole lot of water with the waste, BEFORE it is released from the boat, the concentration of waste released will fall below the regulation, and the toilet can qualify (in theory) as a Type II device. Sort of like adding a big air pump to the exhaust on a car, to reduce the concentration of pollutants out the tail pipe through dilution. Total pollutants remains unchanged, but that isn't measured. Before the rabid dogs seize on this, I'm only pointing out a (possible) weakness in the regulations, not promoting it. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:47 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Greg, I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away the CO2 generated. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 1:06 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > My first thought was that since the government never makes mistakes, these > devices must be OK. > > However, I checked the regulations. Airhead is approved as a type 3 > device, > in that: > > 1. used solely for the storage of waste. > 2. designed to prevent the overboard discharge of waste. > > In other words, the Airhead is approved for marine use, so long as you use > if to store the waste. The Airhead is approved as a combined toilet and > holding tank. If you go to a pump-out station and empty it, or take the > waste container ashore and empty it into a sanitary system, them > everything > is approved and OK. As soon as you dump the waste over the side, you are > in > violation of the regulations. > > The Airhead is a waterless marine head with a very small holding tank > attached, and is approved if you use it in that fashion. It is not > approved > for the discharge of composted waste overboard. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:58 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > Greg I hear what you are saying but i was under the impression that > the US govt has already set standards for effluents that can be met by > these airhead type installations.I'll have to go check the regs again > but i think several of these types of units have been approved by > various political entities. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: >> >> What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to > process >> the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the >> nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the > nutrients are >> exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will >> simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some > of them >> may well survive. >> >> This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board >> toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time > required >> to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are > likely >> to survive this process. >> >> Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding >> decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an > insulated >> composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw > insulation >> you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting > typically >> doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release > as CH4, >> etc. >> >> Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the > released >> gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an > aerator, and >> could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with > luck >> burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. >> >> Greg >> >> _____ >> >> From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas >> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> >> >> The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the >> environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the >> main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have >> understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present > at all >> times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong >> smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The > bacteria >> are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the >> conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. >> >> We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste > water from >> the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that >> seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, > but huge >> amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO >> biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That > permeate >> goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a > specific >> kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the >> bioreactor. >> >> I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the > microscope. >> It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of >> microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, > still has >> only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher >> level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because > this >> waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in > the first >> >> place. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "polaris041" com.au> >> To: > yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements >> >> Garry; >> Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some >> other microbial life that is benificial to the process. >> >> If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other >> mediums with successs. >> >> I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically >> about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those >> living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. >> >> I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; >> and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send >> them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. >> >> I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all >> get on with positive inputs and attitudes. >> >> How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what >> ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for >> what and who they are. period. >> >> later pol >> >> --- In origamiboats@ >> yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> > >> > Brent, >> > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs >> primarily >> > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. >> Peat moss >> > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my >> previous >> > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines >> to break >> > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding >> flats. I >> > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants >> get >> > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat >> moss to >> > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that >> traveled >> > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on >> the peat >> > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat >> moss won't >> > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't >> peat! >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14429|14376|2007-09-21 11:38:02|Michael Casling|Re: Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :)|I think your guess may be better than mine. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) My best guess is that the 38 knot reading is the sustained apparent wind speed that the boat is sailing in. Carl Michael Casling wrote: > > > There is zero chance of a steel boat like that, or any boat of those > proportions doing 38 knots to windward, especially in large waves. Might > I suggest that was the temperature in Fahrenheit. > Those boats will not do 38 knots off the wind in a hurricane. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:45 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > 38 knots is impressive. Fairly serious test of safety gear. Weren't Brent > and Alex going to tow test harnesses earlier this year once the water warmed > up? What were the results? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:37 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Hmm pilot house is a GOOD thing :) > > http://www.youtube > > com/watch?v=zXuzy0k9mZQ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14430|14263|2007-09-21 11:38:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: propellor shaft|In our case we we shifted into reverse for the first time after a month of almost constant motoring in extremely hot weather. This dragged the shaft back slightly and it jammed in stuffing box due to built up of deposits on the shaft. The stuffing box started turning, and something had to let go somewhere. The deposits on the shaft proved tougher than the rubber boot. When I replaced the boot I went with a piece of high pressure hose from the mining industry. Likely the original hose was from an automotive supply and not heavy duty enough. The boat was about 7 years old at the time. The replacement boot is hugely thick, plenty of layers of woven reinforcing internally, oil proof. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft If you hook a grease gun hose to your stern tube and keep it full ,then a stuffing box failure won't sink the boat. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I replaced the hose to my stuffing box once in the last 15 years. It gave plenty of warning it was going to go since it felt a little soft since it was starting to delaminate. Now that my drive shaft is out I will replace it again even though it is going strong after 7 years. I will use it as an emergency spare. Too many items like this get ignored and forgotten about and when they fail the component gets blamed. I am not suggesting this is the case with you or your example but regular maintenance on many boats is an afterthought :). > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "ge@..." > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:35:53 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > Haven't used the drip less type seals. One person we sailed with had one, > and mentioned they were very sensitive to alignment/vibration , and in his > case leaked much worse than the old style stuffing box. > > I have had a rubber boot fail between the hull and the stuffing box. We > were extremely lucky not to lose the boat and came within a hair of drowning > the kids. > > My temptation would be to run all the through hulls inside the boat from > metal standpipes, carried inside well above the water line and braced > against bulkheads to prevent fatigue. > > The prop and shaft I would solid mount with a traditional stuffing box and > pipe welded to the hull and eliminate the rubber boot. Maybe they only fail > very rarely, but I can tell you I still shudder to recall that day. > > This probably complicates things a little if you want to soft mount the > engine, but for offshore I think it is worth it. If the rubber boot to the > stuffing box fails, I'd say there is a 99% chance you will lose the boat > within 30 minutes. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:52 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > Thanks for your input everybody, > > From what I am hearing it sounds like I need a bearing with some kind of > lube or the lip seals won't last due to the sideways movement. I may go to > one of the commercial lap seals if I feel rich. > > I have my engine mounted in the middle of the boat under the sinks and the > shaft goes out the back of the keel. The shaft is only about 3 1/2 feet long > and is rigidly mounted to the engine. I was told to only ever have two flex > points and so far it has worked well since there has never been any undo > wear. I don't have room to do any arrangement with a CV joint. I have always > been impressed with the CV arangements but never been impressed with the > price. I respect your opinions regarding using hose on the shaft but if it > was such a large risk I wouldn't have thru hulls on the boat at all since > they all have hoses on them as well. I have always carried a spare hose and > believe I could change it in the water if I had to. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 com.au> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 4:03:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propellor shaft > > If you are mounting your motor on soft mounts and using a floating > seal as you describe; are you saying the first and only bearing > supporting the shaft is at the aft end of the stern tube. > Volvapenta once sold (may still do)a rubber bearing that was conical > in the longitudinal axis that could accomodate extreme flexing in the > shaft. But then you would need to look at the length of unsupported > shaft that you need. There are tables that will give that length > dependant upon shaft diameter and to a lessor extent material. > You can't hope to have a shaft supported at its aft end just waving > in the breeze, all the way to the motor if it is over the limit of > it's support requirements, wether you have a floating seal or not. > You would be astounded at the whip in a shaft as it rotates and is > subjected to varying loads. It infact acts as a mono type pump and > will chew out a parralel sided bearing in short order as well as > force water into your stern tube. > If you want a soft mounted engine then you need to introduce a > flexible drive http://tinyurl. com/2wgx75 something like this python > drive. There are many on the market.These drives have a thrust > bearing which needs to be hard mounted, albeit on rubber bushes > prior to a double universal with spline to accomodate fwd/aft > movement of the motor as well. I have one from CENTA, a German > company at about twice the price which also electrically isolates the > shaft from the motor. > Yes there are lots of new ideas, as someone said the type of seal > that are two spinning faces accomodate shaft whip, but again it gets > back to a rubber boot as your one and only line of defence against > sinking. > OK so this is a 1 in a million chance but a fire will sink your boat > if you are relying on a rubber seal. > I don't mind if you want to take that chance. > I know that traditional stuffing boxes have their down side,eg,shaft > wear.Why not shrink a sleve on the shaft in the wear zone or just > make sure your design caters for end for ending your shaft > in 15 years.30 years will see us all out. > The one type of seal not yet mentioned is one that is/was used on > fishing craft on the east coast of Australia. As all the rivers there > have sand bars that need to be crossed, abrassion of sand in bearings > was a problem. The answer was an external face seal. The aft bearing > terminated in a flat pltae on its outer face. A flat plate was fitted > to the shaft between the prop and that fixed plate with an > interference fit on the prop shaft. It was driven by 3 dowels from > the prop (on a 3 bladed prop) and positively pressured against the > fixed plate by a rubber bush. These plates had oil grove spiralled on > their faces and the stern tube was oil filled. > I gaurantee that will keep any foriegn matter out of your bearing. > In the end you will do what you think best,that's OK ,it gives you a > sense of ownership of your crat and amakes it all worthwhile and real > for you. After all we are all engineers at heart and it may well work > for you. No problems. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I believe if the motor is flexibly mounted you must flexibly mount > the stuffing box as well so most people mount the stuffing box with a > short piece of hose nowadays. I have had to replace the hose once > now in 15 years. I am now replacing the shaft and cutlass bearing so > would like to explore other possibilities regarding the stuffing > box. The shaft is pitted where it was contacting the packing. I > agree with your point that the old style stuffing boxes are tried and > true but it would be nice to get rid of the drips and have a dry > bilge if it can be done cheaply and safely. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: polaris041 > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08:35 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > You need to ask your self, what is to be gained by departing from > > standard proven procedures. > > > > Bearing materials like "Vesconite" http://www.vesco. com.au/ > > are so well developed and long lasting even in serverely aggressive > > conditions, you can't go passed them. > > As for the integrity of a seal, a traditional stuffing box is fail > > safe. I wouldn't trust my vessel to a peice of hose ( but lots do). > > Remember there is no gate/ball valve behind it to close when you > > leave your vessel,or it begins to leak. Plus it is quite a job to > > replace it in the water. > > > > Prop shafts of mild steel have been used for ages with good > results; > > however a section of propper shafting is 'hollow ground' so it is > > circular and straight. You would need to find a shaft with those > > properties. > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > > > If you use hose to attach the stuffing box so that it is > flexible, > > could you eliminate the bearing, use a grease nipple and grease the > > cavity between the two lip seals? I seem to recall somone doing > this > > but I can't confirm. > > > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: sae140 > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:46:46 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: propllor shaft > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, would you please tell me why not to install a propellor > > shaft on > > > > ball bearings and lip seals , if you ever seen or try it. Oil > > could be > > > > mantained in higher pressure than outside whater, thought > > avoiding to > > > > come inside. By the way, using hight tensile steel for the > shaft, > > would > > > > it be feasable to protect the exposed part of the shaft with an > > epoxy > > > > (paint or resin) protection? thank you eduardo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo > > > Brent may have missed your post with so much 'biological' traffic > of > > > late, so I'll have a go ... > > > > > > 2 aft-facing lip-seals with a ball-race and cavity between 'em > will > > > certainly work on the inboard end of the shaft as a drip-free > > solution > > > to a stuffing box. Run a narrow-bore hose from the cavity to a > small > > > elevated oil tank, and if that oil level drops, you're starting to > > > develop a leak. > > > > > > But - you can't beat a conventional stuffing box for simplicity. > > > > > > It's always best to use a plain bearing on the outboard end of the > > > shaft, as even a few grains of sand or concretion will quickly > > destroy > > > a lip-seal. > > > > > > The Wylo design advocates using a mild-steel prop-shaft to keep > > > everything underwater in the same material to avoid electrolysis > > (and > > > to even avoid the need for sacrificial zincs) - but that's not a > > view > > > shared by this forum's inmates .... > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > ____________ __ > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > > Yahoo! FareChase. > > > http://farechase. yahoo.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > ____________ __ > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with > Yahoo! Autos. > > http://autos. yahoo.com/ index.html > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, > and more! > http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/ 3658 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14431|14374|2007-09-21 11:39:02|J Fisher|Re: Ballast Lead|7500 lbs. John -------Original Message------- From: troller10 Date: 9/18/2007 11:25:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Ballast Lead I need to start acquiring lead for the Keel of a 40 footer. I got a lead on Lead counter weights from a forklift scrapper. How many pounds of lead is needed for the 40 foot twin keel Swain design. Thanks, Brien [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14432|14323|2007-09-21 14:36:07|brentswain38|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|I've since heard that it heats up the saw motor too much, even a heavy duty industrial saw, for long cuts, so gave up the idea . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I have one of those metal cutting blades for my skilsaw. THe first time I used it > was to cut a decorative fence for a friend of mine. THe fence was made of 1/4 > steel. It cut it quite easily. THe next time I used it, I was trying to cut 3/16 > and it didn't do so well.....I think the 1/4 may have done it in. I haven't used it > since, but one of these days I'll try it on some thinner stuff. I think it would be > great for long straight cuts in material less than 3/16. If I recall, I paid about > US$50. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > Hello All > > Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting skillsaws and if > > it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? > > Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd nibbler or shear on > > the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated at 3/16" but they are quite > > expensive. Ive got one comming its a dewalt shear rated to 14gage. I do a lot of > > work in 16 gage so Im hoping it works as advertized, right now I use a hand > > compound shear" looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work using them. > > On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side tracked, wanted to > > get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the next and I ended up with a > > small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. > > Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the prices for 316 > > stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then about $200 for the > > end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" x 6' for around $2000 seemed a > > bit outrages to me. To start with Im going to make 2 1" x 10' for the side > > decks and see how it goes. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14433|14187|2007-09-21 14:39:39|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|Found the problem. The fan had decied to go in reverse. No odour at all now. Both Vancouver and Victoria have no treatmment of any kind in winter, so boaters are definitly being made political scapegoats by political opportunists trying to evade having to deal with the real polluters. I went for an airhead for the sheer simplicity of it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I agree. I have no objection against the Airhead. What I objected to was > dumping the waste/compost in the water. > > I have no objection to dumping compost on land, so long as it is far enough > away from a water and food supply, to allow nature to run its course. > > Greg > > ps: From what I can see from reading the regulations, urine can likely go > overboard so long as it does not come into contact with feces. > > There is also what looks like a loophole in the regulations. If a toilet > mixes a whole lot of water with the waste, BEFORE it is released from the > boat, the concentration of waste released will fall below the regulation, > and the toilet can qualify (in theory) as a Type II device. Sort of like > adding a big air pump to the exhaust on a car, to reduce the concentration > of pollutants out the tail pipe through dilution. Total pollutants remains > unchanged, but that isn't measured. > > Before the rabid dogs seize on this, I'm only pointing out a (possible) > weakness in the regulations, not promoting it. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 4:47 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > Greg, > I am not understanding something here. I get the part that you don't like > the airhead. However what is it that you think is the best choice? > > Of course the airhead is as storage device, that was never in question. In > fact the builder recommends a spare tank. When you fill up the first one > you switch to the second, and it keeps on composting. Of course you need to > dispose of the compost on land, that is the whole point. How exactly is > about 5 gallons of virtually dry compost from a month or more of use worse > than pumping out 50 gallons of chemically treated waste at the dock? > > Which brings up another thought. The builder calls this an air head, and > for aerobic digestion to occur the waste must get aerated, or more exactly > Oxygenated. It occurs to me that the gases produced by aerobic digestion > are nitrogen and CO2, and CO2 is much heavier than air. So there is a good > possibility that the reason Brent's airhead isn't smell free is that the CO2 > > displaces the air rather easily. This would reduce the oxygen levels and > favor the anaerobic bacteria that create the smells. So I suspect that the > purpose of the little exhaust fan that is provided with the air head is not > to remove smells. Its purpose is to remove the CO2 and draw in fresh > oxygen. So it may be very important to the design to make sure that air is > actually drawn into the waste receptacle as opposed to simply carrying away > the CO2 generated. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: com> > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 1:06 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > My first thought was that since the government never makes mistakes, these > > devices must be OK. > > > > However, I checked the regulations. Airhead is approved as a type 3 > > device, > > in that: > > > > 1. used solely for the storage of waste. > > 2. designed to prevent the overboard discharge of waste. > > > > In other words, the Airhead is approved for marine use, so long as you use > > if to store the waste. The Airhead is approved as a combined toilet and > > holding tank. If you go to a pump-out station and empty it, or take the > > waste container ashore and empty it into a sanitary system, them > > everything > > is approved and OK. As soon as you dump the waste over the side, you are > > in > > violation of the regulations. > > > > The Airhead is a waterless marine head with a very small holding tank > > attached, and is approved if you use it in that fashion. It is not > > approved > > for the discharge of composted waste overboard. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:58 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > Greg I hear what you are saying but i was under the impression that > > the US govt has already set standards for effluents that can be met by > > these airhead type installations.I'll have to go check the regs again > > but i think several of these types of units have been approved by > > various political entities. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > >> > >> What I find telling is that it takes months for microorganisms to > > process > >> the waste and it sounds like you still have a long way to go before the > >> nutrients are exhausted. My understanding is that even as the > > nutrients are > >> exhausted, many of the microorganisms will continue to live, they will > >> simply become dormant. If pathogens were in the original mix, some > > of them > >> may well survive. > >> > >> This is the problem I see in cold composting human waste in an on board > >> toilet. The waste is compact and difficult to aerate and the time > > required > >> to eliminate the nutrients is months, not weeks. Many pathogens are > > likely > >> to survive this process. > >> > >> Aerobic composting can be used to raise the heat of the waste, speeding > >> decomposition, and eliminating pathogens. However, it takes an > > insulated > >> composter and sufficient volume of waste. On land, with straw > > insulation > >> you need a pile 3+ feet across typically. Anaerobic composting > > typically > >> doesn't generate sufficient heat, as the available energy is release > > as CH4, > >> etc. > >> > >> Alternatively, you could make an anaerobic composter, and burn the > > released > >> gas to heat the waste. This would eliminate the need for an > > aerator, and > >> could eliminate the smell, as the composter could be sealed and with > > luck > >> burning the released gas would eliminate its odor. > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > >> Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > >> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 6:20 AM > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > >> > >> > >> > >> The bacteria you need are for the most part always present in the > >> environment. The peat can supply a source of additional carbon, but the > >> main function is creating a biomass that is easily aerated. You have > >> understand that you have both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria present > > at all > >> times. The anaerobes all produce methane, hydrogen sulfide and strong > >> smells. The aerobic bacteria produce nitrogen and no smell. The > > bacteria > >> are in competition with one another. You simply want to create the > >> conditions where the aerobic bacteria predominate. > >> > >> We have an industrial job going where we are treating the waste > > water from > >> the reprocessing of titanium chips. We have a primary ultrafilter that > >> seperates the oil and the permeate from that contains zero solids, > > but huge > >> amounts of BOD and COD. Because of the ultrafilter that permeate has NO > >> biorganisms. they are all to big to get through the filter. That > > permeate > >> goes into an aerated bioreactor. We seeded the bioreactor with a > > specific > >> kind of aerobic bacteria that were cultured before be introduced to the > >> bioreactor. > >> > >> I recently looked at the biomass from the bioreactor under the > > microscope. > >> It was kind of startling because waste water always has tons of > >> microorganisms at many levels. This waste water, after 4 months, > > still has > >> only the lowest level bacteria and a low amount of amoebas. The higher > >> level life forms have not appeared. I'm not sure if that is because > > this > >> waste is toxic to them, or the ultrafilter simply kept them out in > > the first > >> > >> place. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "polaris041" com.au> > >> To: > > yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:58 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > >> > >> Garry; > >> Is the role of peat moss purely to airate or does it contain some > >> other microbial life that is benificial to the process. > >> > >> If peat moss is not available in my area have you tested any other > >> mediums with successs. > >> > >> I feel this topic is very relevant. Although not specifically > >> about "origami boat construction", it is certainly vital to those > >> living aboard and wishing to minimise their impact. > >> > >> I also feel that we all need to be responsible for our own wastes; > >> and deal with them within our own back yard (boat) and not just send > >> them on down the line to be treteated/misstreated by who ever. > >> > >> I hope this little debacle has cleared the air a bit and we can all > >> get on with positive inputs and attitudes. > >> > >> How about a few of you guys burying the hatchet; letting what > >> ever 'shit' went down in the past be just that and accept each for > >> what and who they are. period. > >> > >> later pol > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@ > >> yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Brent, > >> > That's not peat moss. Peat moss is sphagnum moss from peat bogs > >> primarily > >> > up in Canada. The stuff you are using is likely way too dense. > >> Peat moss > >> > is light and fluffy and aerates very easily. Did I mention that my > >> previous > >> > career was in the commercial greenhouse industry? I built machines > >> to break > >> > up 1 ton super bales of peat moss to fill flower pots and bedding > >> flats. I > >> > also built machines to poke holes in the peat moss where the plants > >> get > >> > inserted. I built machines to insert plastic tags into the peat > >> moss to > >> > tell you what kind of plants they were. And I built machines that > >> traveled > >> > through the greenhouse to spray just the right amount of water on > >> the peat > >> > moss so that the plants will grow. Too much water and the peat > >> moss won't > >> > aerate and the roots will rot. I know my peat, and that ain't > >> peat! > >> > > >> > Gary H. Lucas > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14434|14381|2007-09-21 14:48:18|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|An ex-airforce guy told me that the Argus cargo plane is steered and controled entirely by trimtabs. When it taxis down the runway, all control surfaces are hanging down. Only when it picks up speed do they spring to life. They had to put in hydralic resistance so pilots wouldn't tear the wings of without realising how much power they were subjecting them to . Trimtab steering would work well on a supertanker in open water. Size has no bearing on the usability of trimtabs for steering. In fact the greater the size of the vessel, the greater the benefits of trimtab steering. My book and plans show the simplest way of using a trimtab for inside steering and autopilot steering. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > For those who don't know what Brent is talking about, in the archives > somewhere is a series of posts where I and others asked him for a > recommendation on a foolproof and simple way of engineering steering > of an outboard rudder into a PH. His response was elegant in its > simplicity and the icing on the cake was the ability to use a very > inexpensive ramrod type autopilot mounted inside the ph out of the > weather and utilizing miniscule amounts of electricity due to the > efficiency of activating a trim tab as opposed to the rudder directly. > I think the system also appears in the latest version of his book. > > However, Given the apparent size of the boat in the video, and not > knowing what kind of rudder arrangment she has, I wasn't surprised at > what appeared to me to be a formidable hydraulic steering system:) > For what its worth, I'm going to try to engineer Brent's system on my > next boat, a '40 something' schooner:) > > seer > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > A jogstick powering a trim tab is sure a lot easier than pumping > > constantly on that wheel. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the other vid > > > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > > > seems to me.. > > > > > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center cockpit > > > > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell > you, > > > > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I > "REALLY" > > > > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > > > > > > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > > > > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > > > > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > > > > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > > > > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > > > > equals center exposed... > > > > > > > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas > depending on > > > > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a > cross sea > > > > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > > > > > > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own > a boat > > > > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' mileage may > > > vary. > > > > > > > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with > ventilation > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A Center > > > > Cockpit > > > > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > > > > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it better to > > > > put it aft > > > > > or center? > > > > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > > > > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > > > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > > > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > > > > world even > > > > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14435|14187|2007-09-21 15:01:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Airhead improvements|On Fri, Sep 21, 2007 at 06:39:24PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Found the problem. The fan had decied to go in reverse. No odour at > all now. > Both Vancouver and Victoria have no treatmment of any kind in winter, > so boaters are definitly being made political scapegoats by political > opportunists trying to evade having to deal with the real polluters. While I was in Baltimore, the city had a huge sewer overflow (not due to rain - something failed in their system) and you could see a toxic green sludge coming out of the sewers into the harbor - in fact, you could see it from anywhere on land, too, because the stuff looked like tentacles spreading from land into the water. Half an hour after it started, the local radio announced that "the boaters were poisoning the beautiful Chesapeake Bay". Later on, I heard from a city engineer that the overflow was ~3.6 million gallons. Heck, I dunno; maybe my 5.2 gallon holding tank (what I had at the time) was mislabelled, and leaked out while I wasn't looking?... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14436|14436|2007-09-21 16:07:51|Victor Giraud|Metal cutting Skil saw|A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane store recently. Vic Giraud| 14437|14437|2007-09-21 18:22:14|dbourg2002|airhead toilet-our cottage version|We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was to use it for marine use I would: -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar-powered version - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and relocate them further up -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the composting microbes -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of flies(yes this happened to us !) I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at least you can just yank the whole think outside. I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work with absolutely no problem. Maybe it would be better to look at one of these units as they are readily available, parts are easy to obtain and you don't have to reinvent the wheel to get one up and running. PS for the existing new composters use peatmoss with a filler such as chainsaw wood chips and be sure to use an enzyme such as compost quick it works a lot better than just straight peatmoss. If you have any questions about real-world use of the composter I'd be happy to answer them. Regards, Don B (Prairie Gringo)| 14438|14436|2007-09-21 20:24:31|seeratlas|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote: > > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane > store recently. > > Vic Giraud > | 14439|14323|2007-09-21 20:31:06|seeratlas|Re: Metal cutting skillsaw|I didn't notice it pulling down the big one I was using, but - then your idea of a 'long cut' is probably 30 feet or better lol. I was thinking if I took my time, didn't overwork the saw or maybe used two alternatively, that I might come out ahead time wise in the end because of the clean undistorted cuts that result. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've since heard that it heats up the saw motor too much, even a heavy > duty industrial saw, for long cuts, so gave up the idea . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > I have one of those metal cutting blades for my skilsaw. THe first > time I used it > > was to cut a decorative fence for a friend of mine. THe fence was > made of 1/4 > > steel. It cut it quite easily. THe next time I used it, I was trying > to cut 3/16 > > and it didn't do so well.....I think the 1/4 may have done it in. I > haven't used it > > since, but one of these days I'll try it on some thinner stuff. I > think it would be > > great for long straight cuts in material less than 3/16. If I > recall, I paid about > > US$50. > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > Hello All > > > Brent I was wondering if you did get one of those metal cutting > skillsaws and if > > > it works ok on the large sheets of steel ? > > > Allso have you or anyone here tryed a electric or air powerd > nibbler or shear on > > > the thicker stuff? I have seen some nibblers rated at 3/16" but > they are quite > > > expensive. Ive got one comming its a dewalt shear rated to 14gage. > I do a lot of > > > work in 16 gage so Im hoping it works as advertized, right now I > use a hand > > > compound shear" looks like a giant pair of sizzors" but its work > using them. > > > On my 26 I havnt done much to it here lately got a little side > tracked, wanted to > > > get a mill to make T tracks one thing lead to the next and I ended > up with a > > > small machine shop in the garage,Ohh well. > > > Back to T or sail track after looking around and seeing the > prices for 316 > > > stainless T track Harken has 1-1/4" x 6' for $2600 and then about > $200 for the > > > end stops and I found one outfit online selling 1" x 6' for around > $2000 seemed a > > > bit outrages to me. To start with Im going to make 2 1" x 10' > for the side > > > decks and see how it goes. > > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > | 14440|14381|2007-09-21 20:31:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |I don't know anything about Linux but I am a huge fan of Ozi Explorer (www.oziexplorer.com) and under Frequently asked questions there is a description of one user who used Wine to run it. Ozi Explorer has a yahoo user group which could probably answer any questions you may have. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 5:49:21 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under Linux/Unix On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 04:53:29PM +1200, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Ben ( and any others who might be knowledgeable on this subject), > > I know that you are quite heavily involved with Linux (If I recall > correctly, you are the editor of Linux Gazette?). Yep, that's me. :) > So my query is > primarily addressed to you. > > Do you know and are you using any charting/plotting/ piloting/ GPS > software that runs under Linux? Not necessarily open source or free (as > in beer) software, just good software that will get the job done in a > Linux environment. Currently I use GPS Utility on a VMWare W2k virtual > machine. it is a nice program but I would prefer to get away from > windows if I can. I may not be able to do so entirely in my professional > life (I am IT Manager and Sys Admin in a small mixed Windows/Linux shop) > but if possible I would like to be Linux only in my private life. > > If you might have any idea's suggestions et al.. I would be keen to hear > of them. I've mentioned before, in this forum, that I primarily use electronic charts for pre-trip plotting, etc., and stick to paper charts once underway - so despite the tons of Linux experience, I don't know how helpful my advice will be. Given that caveat: I use 'xtide' for my tide and current predictions, and 'mxmap' for charting. The latter hasn't been updated in years - the authors (Mayko) seem to have just disappeared - but it does everything it should, and a few things that nobody mentions. E.g., if you take a digital image of any chart, then tell 'mxmap' the lat and long of two diagonally-opposed corners, it'll let you plot on that image just like it does on any "standard" chart. There's NO way in hell that any commercial software is going to let you do that - they want to sell you their charts - but with 'mxmap', you can download all the free charts from NOAA/DMA, and never pay for a chart again. It does both raster and vector types, allows you to hook a GPS into it... all the goodies. Although the documentation sucks, the software itself is nicely intuitive. http://fresh. t-systems- sfr.com/linux/ src/mxmap- 1.0.2-linux- x86-glibc- dyn.tar.gz/ There are lots of other goodies like 'gpsd', 'gpsdrive', etc, but I've spent only minimal time exploring those; I've got everything I need from the above two. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14441|14381|2007-09-21 20:42:18|seeratlas|Re: Pilothouse-Center Cockpit-Aft Cockpit Which is best?|the only negative i can see is that how do you quickly reverse rudder etc. while going forward/backward, or sitting still? I suppose the way you have the prop directly on the rudder gives you enough flow over the tab to toss the rudder back and forth even tho the boat itself may have little or no headway? Course if you're doing close manuevering like that, you probably have no business being in the ph anyway:) should be out there with tiller in hand :) as for the airplane wing tabs, you are entirely correct. My dad was an aviation type engineer when he started out with General Dynamics and I dimly remember him showing me the tabs on a big ass plane and describing how they worked when i was a kid. Funny but true story, he's the one that designed the *modern* flap actuation mechanism used by pretty much everything since the mid 40's. Told me he figured it out when trying to get one of those beds that used to fold down out of the wall back in place :) true story :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > An ex-airforce guy told me that the Argus cargo plane is steered and > controled entirely by trimtabs. When it taxis down the runway, all > control surfaces are hanging down. Only when it picks up speed do they > spring to life. They had to put in hydralic resistance so pilots > wouldn't tear the wings of without realising how much power they were > subjecting them to . > Trimtab steering would work well on a supertanker in open water. Size > has no bearing on the usability of trimtabs for steering. In fact the > greater the size of the vessel, the greater the benefits of trimtab > steering. My book and plans show the simplest way of using a trimtab > for inside steering and autopilot steering. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > For those who don't know what Brent is talking about, in the archives > > somewhere is a series of posts where I and others asked him for a > > recommendation on a foolproof and simple way of engineering steering > > of an outboard rudder into a PH. His response was elegant in its > > simplicity and the icing on the cake was the ability to use a very > > inexpensive ramrod type autopilot mounted inside the ph out of the > > weather and utilizing miniscule amounts of electricity due to the > > efficiency of activating a trim tab as opposed to the rudder directly. > > I think the system also appears in the latest version of his book. > > > > However, Given the apparent size of the boat in the video, and not > > knowing what kind of rudder arrangment she has, I wasn't surprised at > > what appeared to me to be a formidable hydraulic steering system:) > > For what its worth, I'm going to try to engineer Brent's system on my > > next boat, a '40 something' schooner:) > > > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > A jogstick powering a trim tab is sure a lot easier than pumping > > > constantly on that wheel. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, here contrast the view from the pilothouse here, vs. the > other vid > > > > of the guys outside in the weather..leaves little room for question > > > > seems to me.. > > > > > > > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxEFN2READI&mode=related&search= > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Tom, I've done heavy weather in exposed aft cockpit, center > cockpit > > > > > with dodger, and center and aft cockpits with PH's and I'll tell > > you, > > > > > if you do anything other than day sailing in good weather, I > > "REALLY" > > > > > like the PH's, wherever they are. > > > > > > > > > > aft and exposed is zero fun in weather. > > > > > center and exposed is a bit more protected, but still miserable > > > > > center with dodger is better as long as you're heading into the > > > > > wind/weather, and your dodger is strong enough to take a boarding > > > > > sea..fabric need not apply. If you are running, center with dodger > > > > > equals center exposed... > > > > > > > > > > pilothouse equals dry, relatively safe from boarding seas > > depending on > > > > > construction (I've read of at least one wooden boat where a > > cross sea > > > > > took the entire wooden ph with crew overboard in one pass). > > > > > > > > > > Frankly at this stage of my life, i.e. 'senior', I wouldn't own > > a boat > > > > > without a PH. but that's just me. :) as always, others' > mileage may > > > > vary. > > > > > > > > > > ph can be very warm in tropics, but can be alleviated with > > ventilation > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What are some of the tradeoffs on having Pilothouse, vs. A > Center > > > > > Cockpit > > > > > > with dodger, vs. conventional Aft cockpit? > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Pilot house does not have serious drawbacks, is it > better to > > > > > put it aft > > > > > > or center? > > > > > > Maybe if I can the benefit of the experience in this Group.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > > > > > Small boat Sailer looking to move up... > > > > > > Amateur Radio - No code required anymore and good for around the > > > > > world even > > > > > > on VHF. (See IRLP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > > > > > http://www.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14442|14436|2007-09-21 20:55:02|brentswain38|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|Too bad Harbor Freight doesn't ship outside the continental US.They have a lot of good stuff, cheap. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote: > > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane > store recently. > > Vic Giraud > | 14443|14436|2007-09-21 21:39:44|Wesley Cox|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|It's been awhile since I've cut 1/8" or thicker steel with a skil saw, but I don't remember sparks. I commonly use one for 16-20 gauge because it's too thin to be worth the hassle of digging out the plasma cutter. On the thin stuff I never get sparks. Your blade may be too fast or your feed speed is too fast, blade dull or too coarse, etc. Cooling the blade helps a lot. Water may not be ideal but it works. A 1/2 litre soda bottle works well as a squirt bottle with a 1/16" - 1/8" hole drilled in the cap. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote: > > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane > store recently. > > Vic Giraud > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date: 9/20/2007 12:07 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14444|14437|2007-09-21 21:44:32|Wesley Cox|Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version|----- Original Message ----- From: dbourg2002 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] airhead toilet-our cottage version We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was to use it for marine use I would: -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar-powered version - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and relocate them further up -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the composting microbes -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of flies(yes this happened to us !) I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at least you can just yank the whole think outside. I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work with absolutely no problem. Recent Activity a.. 5New Members b.. 1New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . You use your toilet only on weekends??? Well there's the source of your pains most likely. Sorry, couldn't resist :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14445|14437|2007-09-21 21:56:37|Wesley Cox|Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version|Sorry for the double post. The first one I attempted to put my comments w/in the yahoo block and it delivered mingled with the garbage on the side, so... You use your toilet only on weekends??? Well there's the source of your pains most likely. Sorry, couldn't resist :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] airhead toilet-our cottage version ----- Original Message ----- From: dbourg2002 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] airhead toilet-our cottage version We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was to use it for marine use I would: -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar-powered version - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and relocate them further up -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the composting microbes -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of flies(yes this happened to us !) I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at least you can just yank the whole think outside. I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work with absolutely no problem. Recent Activity a.. 5New Members b.. 1New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date: 9/20/2007 12:07 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14446|14436|2007-09-22 01:04:37|seeratlas|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|trust me, i was cutting I think 3/16" and it was a fire show. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find that blade as it must be something different that what you're describing. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > It's been awhile since I've cut 1/8" or thicker steel with a skil saw, but I don't remember sparks. I commonly use one for 16-20 gauge because it's too thin to be worth the hassle of digging out the plasma cutter. On the thin stuff I never get sparks. Your blade may be too fast or your feed speed is too fast, blade dull or too coarse, etc. Cooling the blade helps a lot. Water may not be ideal but it works. A 1/2 litre soda bottle works well as a squirt bottle with a 1/16" - 1/8" hole drilled in the cap. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw > > > cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big > celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way > back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real > fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too > high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote: > > > > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate > > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge > > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using > > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than > > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The > > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight > > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at > > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. > > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with > > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw > > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the > > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane > > store recently. > > > > Vic Giraud > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date: 9/20/2007 12:07 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14447|14447|2007-09-22 01:15:07|seeratlas|shaft seal failure story in september 'Sailing' magazine, page 50.|subject says it all. also points out an interesting problem with his automatic bilge pumps that failed to operate as the intakes were on centerline, and the boat was one of the spoon type bottoms currently in vogue, thus when sailing at any reasonable angle of heel, the intakes were high and dry while over a foot of water was in the boat...that's a 'duh' :) heheh. Anyway, thought the article was timely given the recent discussions. seer| 14448|14187|2007-09-22 03:05:51|jim_both|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|I used an online translator to convert the description on Lief's website from Swedish to English. What a hoot! I think I'll need to learn Swedish to make sense of it (the hightlighting is mine). No offense intended to anyone except perhaps the online translator. Cheers,  Jim description BDT - hose usher from cottage to a slamavskiljningsbrunn. Därifrån pumpkins hose spasm , approx l / tread , over to markbädden. Pumpningen is to for that make wet down so grand surface as possible in beds. The incoming hose scattered in dalgångarna among luftrören (6). Dalgångarna is full with Lecakulor (5) for that together with markduken (4) breed so grand surface as possible for the biohud as form. Luftrören (6) is alliance with each other in buttocks and was connecting to tube passing up unaccustomed territories. On so manner secure syretillförseln to lawsuit. Over luftrören and Leca kulorna am laying a cellplastisolering (7) for shelter anti tjälen. Over cellplasten am laying further a territories (8) for that earth topmost (9) nots ska clatter again beds. Beds consist downwards of filter - sand (1) with two uppsamlingsrör (3) farthest down. Over uppsamlingsrören am laying wife (2) for that secure pipes function. Uppsamlingsrören estuary sedan in an uppsamlingsbrunn at a breddavlopp. Thereafter usher hose forth to one öppendike. Hose from uppsamlingsbrunnen an - turntable to water in åretruntväxthus and also water to gardens. and you can see it on my webpage > http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in Swedish > unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). > > /Leif [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14449|14344|2007-09-22 03:42:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Toilet holding tanks|Sorry, I am going through old posts. Would this work with an 1 1/2 inch thru hull? I currently have an 1 1/2 inch through hull and would like to change my holding tank to this arrangement. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:35:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Toilet holding tanks Place the holding tank for your black water above the water line. A convenient space is outboard of the pan under the side deck and hard up against it. This tank has a funnel shaped bottom with a 2" cock thru the hull ABOVE the water line. When at sea this cock can be left open and merely pump your head waste in the top. It will self discharge and no land lubber has to play with any 'taps'. (I prefer to keep it closed and only open when needed). In restricted dumping areas close the cock and wait till at sea again. Openning the cock the tank will self drain. At anchor the added weight up high is no disadvantage. later pol ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14450|14436|2007-09-22 05:12:37|Ralf Deutsch|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|I found a Makita 4131 Metall Cutting Saw, 3500 rpm, 7 and a quarter inch disk. Is that the one you are talking about? Will these kind of saws cut curves as on the hull plates for an origami style boat or will they cut only straight lines? A saw for straight lines only is obviously not not very useful in boatbuilding, right? Ralf| 14451|14187|2007-09-22 13:11:10|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Thanks to the internet and its boundless resources (e.g. online translators) I feel so much more educated about these grand, hose-spasming toilets used in many unaccustomed territories! I agree...that translation is quite a hoot...but its better than any translating I could do.....or maybe not.... Cheers Paul > I used an online translator to convert the description on Lief's > website from Swedish to English. What a hoot! I think I'll need to > learn Swedish to make sense of it (the hightlighting is mine). No > offense intended to anyone except perhaps the online translator. > > Cheers,  Jim > > description BDT - hose usher from cottage to a slamavskiljningsbrunn. > Därifrån pumpkins hose spasm , approx l / tread , over to > markbädden. > Pumpningen is to for that make wet down so grand surface as possible > in beds. The incoming hose scattered in dalgångarna among > luftrören > (6). Dalgångarna is full with Lecakulor (5) for that together with > markduken (4) breed so grand surface as possible for the biohud as > form. Luftrören (6) is alliance with each other in buttocks and was > connecting to tube passing up unaccustomed territories. On so manner > secure syretillförseln to lawsuit. Over luftrören and Leca kulorna > am > laying a cellplastisolering (7) for shelter anti tjälen. Over > cellplasten am laying further a territories (8) for that earth > topmost (9) nots ska clatter again beds. Beds consist downwards of > filter - sand (1) with two uppsamlingsrör (3) farthest down. Over > uppsamlingsrören am laying wife (2) for that secure pipes function. > Uppsamlingsrören estuary sedan in an uppsamlingsbrunn at a > breddavlopp. Thereafter usher hose forth to one öppendike. Hose from > uppsamlingsbrunnen an - turntable to water in åretruntväxthus and > also water to gardens. > > > and you can see it on my webpage >> http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in > Swedish >> unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). >> >> /Leif > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14452|14436|2007-09-22 15:15:31|brentswain38|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|Most circular saws will cut the very moderate curves on a hull , if you minimise the depth. You will also need a cutting torch for the sharper curves , heavier plates ,etc, anyway. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > I found a Makita 4131 Metall Cutting Saw, 3500 rpm, 7 and a quarter > inch disk. Is that the one you are talking about? > Will these kind of saws cut curves as on the hull plates for an > origami style boat or will they cut only straight lines? A saw for > straight lines only is obviously not not very useful in boatbuilding, > right? > > Ralf > | 14453|14187|2007-09-22 16:05:46|Leif Thomsen|SV: SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements|Hi, That translation is a real challenge :-) You will probably understand more by just reading the Swedish version! I have got the question about an English version before and I will now ask a friend of mine (biologist and teacher (English), to help me make a correct translation on this page, so pls come back in a week or so. /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För paulcotter@... Skickat: den 22 september 2007 19:11 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements Thanks to the internet and its boundless resources (e.g. online translators) I feel so much more educated about these grand, hose-spasming toilets used in many unaccustomed territories! I agree...that translation is quite a hoot...but its better than any translating I could do.....or maybe not.... Cheers Paul > I used an online translator to convert the description on Lief's > website from Swedish to English. What a hoot! I think I'll need to > learn Swedish to make sense of it (the hightlighting is mine). No > offense intended to anyone except perhaps the online translator. > > Cheers,  Jim > > description BDT - hose usher from cottage to a slamavskiljningsbrunn. > Därifrån pumpkins hose spasm , approx l / tread , over to > markbädden. > Pumpningen is to for that make wet down so grand surface as possible > in beds. The incoming hose scattered in dalgångarna among > luftrören > (6). Dalgångarna is full with Lecakulor (5) for that together with > markduken (4) breed so grand surface as possible for the biohud as > form. Luftrören (6) is alliance with each other in buttocks and was > connecting to tube passing up unaccustomed territories. On so manner > secure syretillförseln to lawsuit. Over luftrören and Leca kulorna > am > laying a cellplastisolering (7) for shelter anti tjälen. Over > cellplasten am laying further a territories (8) for that earth > topmost (9) nots ska clatter again beds. Beds consist downwards of > filter - sand (1) with two uppsamlingsrör (3) farthest down. Over > uppsamlingsrören am laying wife (2) for that secure pipes function. > Uppsamlingsrören estuary sedan in an uppsamlingsbrunn at a > breddavlopp. Thereafter usher hose forth to one öppendike. Hose from > uppsamlingsbrunnen an - turntable to water in åretruntväxthus and > also water to gardens. > > > and you can see it on my webpage >> http://www.leif-thomsen-ab.se/kretsloppslosningar.htm Only in > Swedish >> unfortunately - but the pictures are international :-). >> >> /Leif > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 2544 (20070921) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com| 14454|14454|2007-09-22 16:25:31|Tom|Buying 316 stainless flat bar|Hello All Wanted to mention when ordering 316 stainless flat bar specify tru bar otherwise you might get a bar that was sheared lengthwise and it sure wont be what you expected. I just learned that one the hard way. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14455|14344|2007-09-22 18:42:43|polaris041|Re: Toilet holding tanks|Yes Paul; I assume you were asking me. I stated 2" as obviously the lager the outlet the least chance of a blockage. Even then I have seen 2" ball valves that only have a 1" bore. And by the time you fit a tail to an 1 ¼" valve you could be less than an inch. So it will depend on the size and make up of your waste. Has it been through a macerator? Do you use paper that breaks down easily? You will have to determine all those parameters your self. All I can say is it's a the simplest system I know of. Later pol -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Sorry, I am going through old posts. Would this work with an 1 1/2 inch thru hull? I currently have an 1 1/2 inch through hull and would like to change my holding tank to this arrangement. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:35:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Toilet holding tanks > > Place the holding tank for your black water above the water line. > A convenient space is outboard of the pan under the side deck and hard > up against it. > > This tank has a funnel shaped bottom with a 2" cock thru the hull ABOVE > the water line. > > When at sea this cock can be left open and merely pump your head waste > in the top. It will self discharge and no land lubber has to play with > any 'taps'. (I prefer to keep it closed and only open when needed). > In restricted dumping areas close the cock and wait till at sea again. > > Openning the cock the tank will self drain. > > At anchor the added weight up high is no disadvantage. > > later pol > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14456|14344|2007-09-22 19:45:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Toilet holding tanks|Thanks Pol. ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:42:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Toilet holding tanks Yes Paul; I assume you were asking me. I stated 2" as obviously the lager the outlet the least chance of a blockage. Even then I have seen 2" ball valves that only have a 1" bore. And by the time you fit a tail to an 1 ¼" valve you could be less than an inch. So it will depend on the size and make up of your waste. Has it been through a macerator? Do you use paper that breaks down easily? You will have to determine all those parameters your self. All I can say is it's a the simplest system I know of. Later pol -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Sorry, I am going through old posts. Would this work with an 1 1/2 inch thru hull? I currently have an 1 1/2 inch through hull and would like to change my holding tank to this arrangement. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: polaris041 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:35:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Toilet holding tanks > > Place the holding tank for your black water above the water line. > A convenient space is outboard of the pan under the side deck and hard > up against it. > > This tank has a funnel shaped bottom with a 2" cock thru the hull ABOVE > the water line. > > When at sea this cock can be left open and merely pump your head waste > in the top. It will self discharge and no land lubber has to play with > any 'taps'. (I prefer to keep it closed and only open when needed). > In restricted dumping areas close the cock and wait till at sea again. > > Openning the cock the tank will self drain. > > At anchor the added weight up high is no disadvantage. > > later pol > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink. yahoo.com/ gmrs/yahoo_ panel_invite. asp?a=7 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14457|14436|2007-09-22 20:29:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|My brother-in-law has a metal cutting chopsaw with a carbide toothed blade. I used it and was impressed with how well it cut 2 x 2 x 1/4" angle iron. It did not throw sparks. I looked closely at how it worked, because I have owned a both large abrasive chop saws and Cold Saws. It is closer to being a cold saw, in that the unit is geared way down and turns much slower than a wood saw. My wood chop saw turns a 12" blade at 5500 rpm. This saw turned the same size blade at only 1500 rpm, way below the speed of skil saw. Cold saws turn the blade at only 30 to 60 rpm. They are massive saws that essentially mill away the metal. Very smooth and accurate cuts. I've cut 100 pieces that were +- 0.001" of being the same length. I know because the machinist who was going to machine the parts got curious when he checked the lengths of the blanks I gave him, and then checked every one! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw trust me, i was cutting I think 3/16" and it was a fire show. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find that blade as it must be something different that what you're describing. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > It's been awhile since I've cut 1/8" or thicker steel with a skil saw, but I don't remember sparks. I commonly use one for 16-20 gauge because it's too thin to be worth the hassle of digging out the plasma cutter. On the thin stuff I never get sparks. Your blade may be too fast or your feed speed is too fast, blade dull or too coarse, etc. Cooling the blade helps a lot. Water may not be ideal but it works. A 1/2 litre soda bottle works well as a squirt bottle with a 1/16" - 1/8" hole drilled in the cap. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw > > > cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big > celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way > back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real > fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too > high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote: > > > > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate > > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge > > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight line using > > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turns slower than > > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase blade life. The > > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. Harbor Freight > > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at > > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can be pricey. > > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is very happy with > > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do have the saw > > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could not find the > > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in the Spokane > > store recently. > > > > Vic Giraud > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date: 9/20/2007 12:07 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14458|14436|2007-09-22 22:43:38|Phil S.|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|I have been using my Dewalt 18v saber saw to cut up I-beams in a building I took down. I have been able to saw up the 1/8" and 3/16 web fairly quickly. Uses up a few saw blades though. You can cut curves in thin material with a circular saw, you can either set your depth to just score the piece and make multiple runs at slightly increased depths on the radius. Also, Depending on the kerf width of the saw blade and the depth set a radius of as little as 5ft can be done without binding, oil is the key. Phil ____________________________________________________________________________________ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658| 14459|14459|2007-09-23 16:07:11|kingsknight4life|Place to put my hull?|Hi I'm looking for a place to put our unfinished hull, on Vanc. Isle.. Currently it is located in Duncan but it could be moved any reasonable distance, preferably to a place that is relatively inexpensive, long term and secure. We had it on a relatives place but it is looking like that situation will be changing as they are moving. any help/offers appreciated. Thanks Bev and Rowland| 14460|14460|2007-09-23 18:19:02|lachica31|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |Hi Ben, Xtide - excellent download and install no problems. Mxmap - download went fine, attempted to run, found it needed libXm.so.2 so installed lesstif2. That solved the dependency. but now, "Floating point exception (core dumped)" since no source, nothing I can do to fix. However it might have something to do with the fact that I do not have any charts for it. Any idea's? I am running Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 on a Dell Precision M90. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor > Given that caveat: I use 'xtide' for my tide and current predictions, > and 'mxmap' for charting. The latter hasn't been updated in years - the > authors (Mayko) seem to have just disappeared - but it does everything > it should, and a few things that nobody mentions. E.g., if you take a > digital image of any chart, then tell 'mxmap' the lat and long of two > diagonally-opposed corners, it'll let you plot on that image just like > it does on any "standard" chart. There's NO way in hell that any > commercial software is going to let you do that - they want to sell you > their charts - but with 'mxmap', you can download all the free charts > from NOAA/DMA, and never pay for a chart again. > > It does both raster and vector types, allows you to hook a GPS into > it... all the goodies. Although the documentation sucks, the software > itself is nicely intuitive. | 14461|14436|2007-09-23 20:24:11|weldon strawbridge|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|I have used the type of saw you are talking about and have cut 1/2 and 5/8 angle iron with it , but we used water and and sometimes oil. These blades run about 36 inches in diameter. weldon To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.comFrom: gary.lucas@...: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:29:17 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw My brother-in-law has a metal cutting chopsaw with a carbide toothed blade. I used it and was impressed with how well it cut 2 x 2 x 1/4" angle iron. It did not throw sparks. I looked closely at how it worked, because I have owned a both large abrasive chop saws and Cold Saws. It is closer to being a cold saw, in that the unit is geared way down and turns much slower than a wood saw. My wood chop saw turns a 12" blade at 5500 rpm. This saw turned the same size blade at only 1500 rpm, way below the speed of skil saw.Cold saws turn the blade at only 30 to 60 rpm. They are massive saws that essentially mill away the metal. Very smooth and accurate cuts. I've cut 100 pieces that were +- 0.001" of being the same length. I know because the machinist who was going to machine the parts got curious when he checked the lengths of the blanks I gave him, and then checked every one!Gary H. Lucas----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:04 AMSubject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil sawtrust me, i was cutting I think 3/16" and it was a fire show. I'llhave to dig around and see if I can find that blade as it must besomething different that what you're describing.seer--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote:>> It's been awhile since I've cut 1/8" or thicker steel with a skilsaw, but I don't remember sparks. I commonly use one for 16-20 gaugebecause it's too thin to be worth the hassle of digging out the plasmacutter. On the thin stuff I never get sparks. Your blade may be toofast or your feed speed is too fast, blade dull or too coarse, etc.Cooling the blade helps a lot. Water may not be ideal but it works.A 1/2 litre soda bottle works well as a squirt bottle with a 1/16" -1/8" hole drilled in the cap.>> ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:24 PM> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw>>> cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big> celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way> back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real> fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too> high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho.>> seer>> -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote:> >> > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate> > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge> > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight lineusing> > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turnsslower than> > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase bladelife. The> > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. HarborFreight> > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at> > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can bepricey.> > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is veryhappy with> > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do havethe saw> > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could notfind the> > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in theSpokane> > store recently.> >> > Vic Giraud> >>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------->>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date:9/20/2007 12:07 PM>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> _________________________________________________________________ Capture your memories in an online journal! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14462|14460|2007-09-24 02:42:46|lachica31|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |Hi Ben, Thanks for the assistance. Yep, your version worked just fine.... at least I got the splash screen :-) Now it is looking for maps.db in maps. I tried "touch maps.db" in the hope of fooling it so that I could pursue the help menu and get some hints on how to proceed. Unfortunately that has not worked. So I would be most grateful for a tarball of your East Coast maps. I am not in the states at the moment (Auckland, NZ) but will be coming back to the East Coast in the not too distant future, so those charts will come in handy. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Ben Okopnik wrote: > Easiest way to install: > > 1) Create a /usr/local/mxmap directory; unpack the tarball into it. > 2) Link the program to some location in your PATH (e.g., 'ln -s > /usr/local/mxmap/mxmap-static /usr/local/bin/mxmap'). > 3) Create a 'maps/' subdirectory under /usr/local/mxmap and place all > your charts there. I've got about 351MB of East Coast charts; just > let me know if you want them, and I'll upload them the next time I > have a fast connection. > > You may have to tweak 'mxmap.ini' if you use different paths, but it's > not a big deal - it's just plain text. Let me know if you run into any > problems, and I'll try my best to help. > > > Regards, | 14463|14463|2007-09-24 14:22:02|Alex Christie|BS 36 Aft cabin for sale|My BS 36 aft-cabin sailboat will be for sale this week for $26500 firm. I will soon start repainting and a few repairs, after which I will be putting it on the regular market for sale at a price which more reflects its value, so this is a limited time offer. I've decided to put all energy and resources at the bare hull and the ensuing film I will produce, and I'm passing on my floating sistership to someone who wants a good boat. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14464|14436|2007-09-24 14:22:39|brentswain38|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|The saw that Princess autuo sells for metal cutting is a worm gear saw, so it must turn slow. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, weldon strawbridge wrote: > > > I have used the type of saw you are talking about and have cut 1/2 and 5/8 angle iron with it , but we used water and and sometimes oil. These blades run about 36 inches in diameter. weldon > > > To: origamiboats@...: gary.lucas@...: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:29:17 -0400Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw > > > > > My brother-in-law has a metal cutting chopsaw with a carbide toothed blade. I used it and was impressed with how well it cut 2 x 2 x 1/4" angle iron. It did not throw sparks. I looked closely at how it worked, because I have owned a both large abrasive chop saws and Cold Saws. It is closer to being a cold saw, in that the unit is geared way down and turns much slower than a wood saw. My wood chop saw turns a 12" blade at 5500 rpm. This saw turned the same size blade at only 1500 rpm, way below the speed of skil saw.Cold saws turn the blade at only 30 to 60 rpm. They are massive saws that essentially mill away the metal. Very smooth and accurate cuts. I've cut 100 pieces that were +- 0.001" of being the same length. I know because the machinist who was going to machine the parts got curious when he checked the lengths of the blanks I gave him, and then checked every one!Gary H. Lucas----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:04 AMSubject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil sawtrust me, i was cutting I think 3/16" and it was a fire show. I'llhave to dig around and see if I can find that blade as it must besomething different that what you're describing.seer--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote:>> It's been awhile since I've cut 1/8" or thicker steel with a skilsaw, but I don't remember sparks. I commonly use one for 16-20 gaugebecause it's too thin to be worth the hassle of digging out the plasmacutter. On the thin stuff I never get sparks. Your blade may be toofast or your feed speed is too fast, blade dull or too coarse, etc.Cooling the blade helps a lot. Water may not be ideal but it works.A 1/2 litre soda bottle works well as a squirt bottle with a 1/16" -1/8" hole drilled in the cap.>> ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:24 PM> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Metal cutting Skil saw>>> cut was 'cool'? hmm I'll have to try those blades, I have this big> celebration limited edition something or other that cost big bucks way> back when, supposedly the finest skil ever made, and it was a real> fireworks show with the blades I was using, maybe I had running too> high of speed or something. cuts were darn clean tho.>> seer>> -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Giraud" wrote:> >> > A buddy of mine is building a 57' cruiser. He has cut all his plate> > with a special Makita metal cutting skil saw. He loved it. No edge> > grinding. the cut is cool, and it is easy to cut a straight lineusing> > a guide, and no smoke. The special metal cutting saw turnsslower than> > a wood cutting saw. (3500 rpm) This appears to increase bladelife. The> > saw also has a pocket to collect the cut metal chips. HarborFreight> > recommends a 3mm (.118) min cut to a 7mm (.275)max cut. Although at> > work I have seen 3/8 plate cut with a saw. The blades can bepricey.> > Different ones are available on EBay, but my friend is veryhappy with> > the ones from Harbor Freight that I get for him. They do havethe saw> > and blade for about $80 if I remember correctly. I could notfind the> > saw (item 8897)on their website,butI have seen the saw in theSpokane> > store recently.> >> > Vic Giraud> >>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------->>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.27/1020 - Release Date:9/20/2007 12:07 PM>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Capture your memories in an online journal! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14465|14437|2007-09-24 14:27:40|brentswain38|Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version|The big advantage of the airhead is the initial separation of liquid. something the Sun mar doesn't have . It is also far more bulky for that reason, too bulky for a boat. A friend usd cedar sawdust with good results. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years > and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see > any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a > marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. > Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was > to use it for marine use I would: > > -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar-powered > version > > - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and > relocate them further up > > -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the > composting microbes > > -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of > flies(yes this happened to us !) > > I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my > existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at > least you can just yank the whole think outside. > > I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, > but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each > weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work > with absolutely no problem. > > Maybe it would be better to look at one of these units as they are > readily available, parts are easy to obtain and you don't have to > reinvent the wheel to get one up and running. > > PS for the existing new composters use peatmoss with a filler such as > chainsaw wood chips and be sure to use an enzyme such as compost > quick it works a lot better than just straight peatmoss. > > If you have any questions about real-world use of the composter I'd > be happy to answer them. > > Regards, > > Don B > (Prairie Gringo) > | 14466|14459|2007-09-24 14:30:02|brentswain38|Re: Place to put my hull?|Blast it paint it and launch it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi > > I'm looking for a place to put our unfinished hull, on Vanc. Isle.. > Currently it is located in Duncan but it could be moved any reasonable > distance, preferably to a place that is relatively inexpensive, long > term and secure. We had it on a relatives place but it is looking like > that situation will be changing as they are moving. any help/offers > appreciated. > > Thanks Bev and Rowland > | 14467|14436|2007-09-24 15:39:10|khooper_fboats|Re: Metal cutting Skil saw|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Too bad Harbor Freight doesn't ship outside the continental US.They > have a lot of good stuff, cheap. > Brent Northern Tool carries a metal saw like the ones being discussed, store brand for $109 USD, they ship to Canada. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200313572_200313572| 14468|14468|2007-09-24 16:22:46|seeratlas|Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer?|This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer| 14469|14381|2007-09-24 16:53:43|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |Hi Ben, Xtide - excellent download and install no problems. Mxmap - download went fine, attempted to run, found it needed libXm.so.2 so installed lesstif2. That solved the dependency. but now, "Floating point exception (core dumped)" since no source, nothing I can do to fix. However it might have something to do with the fact that I do not have any charts for it. Any idea's? I am running Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 on a Dell Precision M90. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor > Given that caveat: I use 'xtide' for my tide and current predictions, > and 'mxmap' for charting. The latter hasn't been updated in years - the > authors (Mayko) seem to have just disappeared - but it does everything > it should, and a few things that nobody mentions. E.g., if you take a > digital image of any chart, then tell 'mxmap' the lat and long of two > diagonally-opposed corners, it'll let you plot on that image just like > it does on any "standard" chart. There's NO way in hell that any > commercial software is going to let you do that - they want to sell you > their charts - but with 'mxmap', you can download all the free charts > from NOAA/DMA, and never pay for a chart again. > > It does both raster and vector types, allows you to hook a GPS into > it... all the goodies. Although the documentation sucks, the software > itself is nicely intuitive. | 14470|14470|2007-09-24 17:55:35|Alex Christie|Forsight, Hindsight!|Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14471|14470|2007-09-24 20:29:15|kingsknight4life|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Alex would you go with the aaft cabin anf a are you considering putting one in your hull? Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14472|14459|2007-09-24 20:30:50|kingsknight4life|Re: Place to put my hull?|I wish I had the money for that. Brent how well does the Wasser Tar work? Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Blast it paint it and launch it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I'm looking for a place to put our unfinished hull, on Vanc. Isle.. > > Currently it is located in Duncan but it could be moved any reasonable > > distance, preferably to a place that is relatively inexpensive, long > > term and secure. We had it on a relatives place but it is looking like > > that situation will be changing as they are moving. any help/offers > > appreciated. > > > > Thanks Bev and Rowland > > > | 14473|14463|2007-09-24 20:46:34|James Pronk|Re: BS 36 Aft cabin for sale|Wow Alex that is less then three years rent! and then you own the boat and you can take it anywhere! But where are you going to live? $26500 won't buy you a good new car, and you can't live in a car, well you can (and I have) but who wants to do that!!! Good luck and sorry to hear that you are selling your boat. If I could swing it I would be out there with a bucket full of cash to take that boat from you! James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > My BS 36 aft-cabin sailboat will be for sale this week for $26500 firm. I will soon start repainting and a few repairs, after which I will be putting it on the regular market for sale at a price which more reflects its value, so this is a limited time offer. I've decided to put all energy and resources at the bare hull and the ensuing film I will produce, and I'm passing on my floating sistership to someone who wants a good boat. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14474|14437|2007-09-24 21:33:10|dbourg2002|Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version|Actually, the sunmar does seperate the liquids initially-at least our model does (excell model) The unit has a initial drum which is spun when mixing up the compost, at the bottom of the drum a screen allows the liquid to flow out to the bottom evaporator. Solids are spun out of the main drum into a finishing drawer. The size of the unit may be an issue but I had a good look at it this weekend and think it would fit into a head. I will measure the beast up next time I remember and post the dimensions. Maybe it won't fit for all applications but it's probably worth considering based on ease of installation and cost. Don B --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The big advantage of the airhead is the initial separation of liquid. > something the Sun mar doesn't have . It is also far more bulky for > that reason, too bulky for a boat. > A friend usd cedar sawdust with good results. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > > > We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years > > and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see > > any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a > > marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. > > Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was > > to use it for marine use I would: > > > > -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar- powered > > version > > > > - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and > > relocate them further up > > > > -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the > > composting microbes > > > > -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of > > flies(yes this happened to us !) > > > > I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my > > existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at > > least you can just yank the whole think outside. > > > > I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, > > but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each > > weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work > > with absolutely no problem. > > > > Maybe it would be better to look at one of these units as they are > > readily available, parts are easy to obtain and you don't have to > > reinvent the wheel to get one up and running. > > > > PS for the existing new composters use peatmoss with a filler such as > > chainsaw wood chips and be sure to use an enzyme such as compost > > quick it works a lot better than just straight peatmoss. > > > > If you have any questions about real-world use of the composter I'd > > be happy to answer them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Don B > > (Prairie Gringo) > > > | 14475|14463|2007-09-24 21:38:50|Alex Christie|Re: BS 36 Aft cabin for sale|Well, I lucked into a very cheap rental spot to live with room right beside the building for my bare hull to be worked on (it is here now, I'll post a photo of it on the group), so I'm happy to carry on with my original hull. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: James Pronk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 36 Aft cabin for sale Wow Alex that is less then three years rent! and then you own the boat and you can take it anywhere! But where are you going to live? $26500 won't buy you a good new car, and you can't live in a car, well you can (and I have) but who wants to do that!!! Good luck and sorry to hear that you are selling your boat. If I could swing it I would be out there with a bucket full of cash to take that boat from you! James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > My BS 36 aft-cabin sailboat will be for sale this week for $26500 firm. I will soon start repainting and a few repairs, after which I will be putting it on the regular market for sale at a price which more reflects its value, so this is a limited time offer. I've decided to put all energy and resources at the bare hull and the ensuing film I will produce, and I'm passing on my floating sistership to someone who wants a good boat. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14476|14470|2007-09-24 21:55:45|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying to do the same with a furler. More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14477|14470|2007-09-24 22:00:59|Alex Christie|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Rowland, my regular cockpit is already in, so I'm loathe to change it, but the aft cabin sure is nice. It makes for substantial liveaboard space. I really enjoyed sleeping there, and with the rectangular port hole in the transom the airflow is really lovely at night. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! Alex would you go with the aaft cabin anf a are you considering putting one in your hull? Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14478|14478|2007-09-24 22:01:10|dbourg2002|West Coast Visit and thanks|My wife and I have just come back from a west coast visit where we checked out the origami boats that we could find. All of the people we met were more than willing to discuss their boats with us and we thank-you very much for your help. What struck me the most about the boats was the variations from the design. We saw Alex's aft. berth boat with his two dogs resting on the deck but no Alex in sight. This boat looked like it just needs some minor TLC and it will be a steal for whoever buys her. From what I saw all the fix-ups were cosmetic in nature with the exception of the railings. We viewed three boats in Comox and one on Saltspring Island (Mikes boat) which were of standard pilothouse design but with differing amount of detailing done on each. One boat at the dock in Cowichan Bay had a larger higher pilothouse, hydralic steering and different cockpit detailing including rear lazorettes. (I think we liked this one the best.) All the boats looked extremely rugged and I was suprised how little rust I saw on the boats-some had no rust evident anywhere- and others had extremely small local rust where the paint had been chipped off. I guess this confirms that the epoxies being used are tough enough to get the job done (I have to admit I was sceptical about the rust situation) I have taken lots of digital photos which would clog-up the site but if anyone has something they would like to see let me know and I will post them. Thanks once more to all of those who put up with our questions. Don B| 14479|14437|2007-09-24 22:21:45|Alex Christie|Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version|I think there is a Sunmar made with a curved side to fit a hull, isn't there? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: dbourg2002 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 6:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: airhead toilet-our cottage version Actually, the sunmar does seperate the liquids initially-at least our model does (excell model) The unit has a initial drum which is spun when mixing up the compost, at the bottom of the drum a screen allows the liquid to flow out to the bottom evaporator. Solids are spun out of the main drum into a finishing drawer. The size of the unit may be an issue but I had a good look at it this weekend and think it would fit into a head. I will measure the beast up next time I remember and post the dimensions. Maybe it won't fit for all applications but it's probably worth considering based on ease of installation and cost. Don B --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The big advantage of the airhead is the initial separation of liquid. > something the Sun mar doesn't have . It is also far more bulky for > that reason, too bulky for a boat. > A friend usd cedar sawdust with good results. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > > > We have had a composting toilet in our cottage for the past 9 years > > and are generally pleased with it. Looking at the design I can't see > > any reason why, with small alterations, it couldn't be used for a > > marine application. The toilet is a SunMar toilet and uses 120v. > > Other than the electricity and a stack it is self contained. If I was > > to use it for marine use I would: > > > > -use a 12v fan at the top of the stack, maybe a small solar- powered > > version > > > > - plug the vents as they are too low during extreme boat heeling and > > relocate them further up > > > > -insulate the floor below to hold the aerobic heat from the > > composting microbes > > > > -place a screen over the outside vent to eliminate the possiblity of > > flies(yes this happened to us !) > > > > I think this would all work out fairly readily based on how my > > existing system has performed. If it dousn't or there is a problem at > > least you can just yank the whole think outside. > > > > I have had some growing pains when we got the unit, mainly my fault, > > but the unit has performed well for us generally. We use it each > > weekend but this summer it got about five continuous weeks of work > > with absolutely no problem. > > > > Maybe it would be better to look at one of these units as they are > > readily available, parts are easy to obtain and you don't have to > > reinvent the wheel to get one up and running. > > > > PS for the existing new composters use peatmoss with a filler such as > > chainsaw wood chips and be sure to use an enzyme such as compost > > quick it works a lot better than just straight peatmoss. > > > > If you have any questions about real-world use of the composter I'd > > be happy to answer them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Don B > > (Prairie Gringo) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14480|14478|2007-09-24 22:31:17|Alex Christie|Re: West Coast Visit and thanks|Sorry to have missed you Don, I must have been in town. I must also say I'm impressed with how steel boats stand up with modern coatings. Localized surface rust in a scratch or scuff does not spread or bubble under adjoining paint, it can be deal with where the open spot is. I think it is possibly the zinc rich primer which does the trick. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: dbourg2002 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] West Coast Visit and thanks My wife and I have just come back from a west coast visit where we checked out the origami boats that we could find. All of the people we met were more than willing to discuss their boats with us and we thank-you very much for your help. What struck me the most about the boats was the variations from the design. We saw Alex's aft. berth boat with his two dogs resting on the deck but no Alex in sight. This boat looked like it just needs some minor TLC and it will be a steal for whoever buys her. From what I saw all the fix-ups were cosmetic in nature with the exception of the railings. We viewed three boats in Comox and one on Saltspring Island (Mikes boat) which were of standard pilothouse design but with differing amount of detailing done on each. One boat at the dock in Cowichan Bay had a larger higher pilothouse, hydralic steering and different cockpit detailing including rear lazorettes. (I think we liked this one the best.) All the boats looked extremely rugged and I was suprised how little rust I saw on the boats-some had no rust evident anywhere- and others had extremely small local rust where the paint had been chipped off. I guess this confirms that the epoxies being used are tough enough to get the job done (I have to admit I was sceptical about the rust situation) I have taken lots of digital photos which would clog-up the site but if anyone has something they would like to see let me know and I will post them. Thanks once more to all of those who put up with our questions. Don B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14481|14481|2007-09-24 22:36:33|seeratlas|now THIS is fast ocean sailing|http://youtube.com/watch?v=QZDS3miKQCc boy, these guys must have cast iron guts, I don't know how long i could take that kind of action LOL, would be hella fun for an hour or so tho LOL. seer| 14482|14470|2007-09-24 22:41:29|Alex Christie|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying to do the same with a furler. More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14483|14470|2007-09-24 22:42:49|Alex Christie|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|I wonder if the hanks and a hanked furler would make little humps for chafe if they were rolled up with the sail? Must be an unusual setup as I figure normally just a bolt-rope goes into the slot. Maybe a person could have twin forestays, just bring the extra forward from where it is tied to mast and clip in as an inner forestay, but quite close to the furler. Best of both worlds? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying to do the same with a furler. More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14484|14470|2007-09-24 22:54:13|seeratlas|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Re the dinghy, I have to tell you, I have a 12 foot Portaboat that I've shlepped from Alaska to Baja, not just on a boat, but tied to the top of a camper etc., and I have yet to find anything I like better. It folds up to about the size of one of the old time surfboards,and seems to be essentially indestructable. When I bought mine, the guy had a video that showed one filled with rocks then dropped from about ten feet into the water, BIG WHAM!! BIG SPLASH, no leaks, no damage. Mine will plane with a 5 horse outboard, a six gallon fuel tank, and i'm about 230lbs, plus my fishing gear. A friend of mine and I took two of em out, he had a six evinrude on his, in Baja and we were caught out fishing some ten miles or so from shore when the weather came up and all the 25 foot mex boats went steaming in towards shore fast as they could go. Pretty soon we were the only ones out there :). Though the seas came up pretty good, the stability of the dinghy was so good (it literally flexes or 'slithers' through cross seas, even breaking ones) that we just stayed out fishing, even tho we looked like petrels out there riding the waves. Caught a goodly amount of fish including one decent sailfish that dragged my buddy around for about 45 minutes LOL. He eventually used the motor to fight the fish to a standstill as the portaboats are so light the fish was threatening to drag him off into the deep blue :) In any event, having fought for years with the standard expensivo inflatable, I've found my dinghy. The ability to fold up and lie inobstrusively on the cabin top is just gravy. As long as you handle the UV factor, it seems just about indestructible, oh, and it rows just fine. The Yacht club types might look twice lol, but for the size boat we're talking about, it makes a helluva lot of sense. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14485|14485|2007-09-24 22:58:21|troller10|What type of primer?|I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the steel I'm ordering. They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. I told them I'd check on it. So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? Thanks, Brien| 14486|14485|2007-09-24 23:09:05|Aaron Williams|Re: What type of primer?|I had mine done with devo 302 zink but I think the wessler primer is easyer to use for touch up and I dont think there is any mixing. Aaron troller10 wrote: I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the steel I'm ordering. They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. I told them I'd check on it. So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? Thanks, Brien --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14487|14470|2007-09-24 23:09:18|seeratlas|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|That's what cutters are for and even sloops can be rigged easily with a jumper. Building a rig that necessitates swapping out a hanked gen on a heaving foredeck in a blow is asking for it as far as I'm concerned, especially on a 36'ish boat. As Brent described, when you see it coming roll up that gen tight with as many wraps of the sheet on it you can get. Then sail your staysail, or set your baby stay jumper on a levering rig of your choice, or if its looking really bad, set your storm tri, batten down, and take a seat in the PH with one of those closed up sip from mugs of your favorite hot beverage and enjoy the light show :) This is, after all, supposed to be 'fun'. Life-threatening gymnastics on the foredeck in weather are NOT 'fun'. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > to do the same with a furler. > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > 11:27 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14488|14481|2007-09-24 23:13:52|Alex Christie|Re: now THIS is fast ocean sailing|There is the hanked on storm jib or yankee aft of the furler I was mentioning to Greg. Seems to work? He is, however, broad reaching, not clawing upwind, as far as I can tell. Anyone with offshore experience care to chime in here on this? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] now THIS is fast ocean sailing http://youtube.com/watch?v=QZDS3miKQCc boy, these guys must have cast iron guts, I don't know how long i could take that kind of action LOL, would be hella fun for an hour or so tho LOL. seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14489|14470|2007-09-24 23:29:57|Harry James|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|How about dual forestays with one roller one hank on. I am looking at a boat now (not steel) that has dual forestays and I am thinking of going this route. HJ Alex Christie wrote: > I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > to do the same with a furler. > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > 11:27 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 14490|14485|2007-09-24 23:35:09|troller10|Re: What type of primer?|It probably doesn't matter, but was that Devo Catha-Coat 302H, 302HA, 302HB? I suppose I could just say I wanted a Zinc based primer. Thanks, Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I had mine done with devo 302 zink but I think the wessler primer is easyer to use for touch up and I dont think there is any mixing. > Aaron > > troller10 wrote: > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > steel I'm ordering. > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > I told them I'd check on it. > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > Thanks, > > Brien > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14491|14470|2007-09-24 23:35:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|My two bits on my BS 36 re rigging, I have a huge old high-cut roller furler (170%) that is great for reaching but terrible to windward. It was basically free but if I was getting a new one it would probably be a 140 or 150. Right behind that about 8-10 inches is a permanent stay with a hank-on 120 which I use otherwise. It goes on a pole when needed downwind and you can put a huge sail area outwith the both of them wing and wing. All in all, it works great. The hank-on jib has reef points but I have never used them. Once the wind comes up too much for the hank-on jib, the inner staysail is big enough to drive the boat to weather. You have to roll in the roller furling genoa completely to tack due to the inner stays, but offshore this is no big deal. Short tacking up a channel, I don't use the roller furling jib. I originally had the inner headstay as removable ( I used a wire halyard to a winch) and could never get it tight enough so went to a pemanent stay on a turnbuckle. It needs to be very tight with no sag if you are trying to go to weather and any movement at all from pumping in a seaway and the hanks will shortly get sawn through. It's a lot of windage with a roller furler but that is a sacrifice you pay for them. I met one guy who had a 45 foot steel Spencer from NZ who regulary went 200 miles a day....until he put a roller furler on the boat. I never liked the idea of chafe on the mainsail with lazy jacks. I can reef or furl the main in a couple of minutes so have never found the need for them. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:26:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying to do the same with a furler. More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is the start: 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from wet. 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the boom. 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste energy in the form of heat 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing cause someone else might be interested in his response. Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? As always, thanks in advance :) Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out there...circumstanc es are *finally* beginning to come together and looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds me.... GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you might have done differently :) hehehe You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and why :) seer ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14492|14470|2007-09-25 00:02:45|seeratlas|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|I knew a guy who had dual forestays set up and he loved it. In fact when heading south for the trades, he would setup to use twin jibs poled out on either side when he had the chance to go dead downwind. Sailed for days like that with little to no trimming necessary. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > How about dual forestays with one roller one hank on. I am looking at a > boat now (not steel) that has dual forestays and I am thinking of going > this route. > > HJ > > Alex Christie wrote: > > I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > > to do the same with a furler. > > > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Alex Christie > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > > wet. > > > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > > boom. > > > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > > energy in the form of heat > > > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > > me.... > > > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > > might have done differently :) hehehe > > > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > > 11:27 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14493|14493|2007-09-25 00:05:00|seeratlas|Greg, question for you|I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat under construction. couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow protector on , looks nifty last question, is that boat the "bones' ? seer| 14494|14485|2007-09-25 00:47:59|Aaron Williams|Re: What type of primer?|The invoice just has devo 302 wrote on it. One of my local painters gave me a can of 302 K that was left over from some plate I missed when I made the original order. troller10 wrote: It probably doesn't matter, but was that Devo Catha-Coat 302H, 302HA, 302HB? I suppose I could just say I wanted a Zinc based primer. Thanks, Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I had mine done with devo 302 zink but I think the wessler primer is easyer to use for touch up and I dont think there is any mixing. > Aaron > > troller10 wrote: > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > steel I'm ordering. > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > I told them I'd check on it. > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > Thanks, > > Brien > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14495|14485|2007-09-25 14:12:36|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: What type of primer?|302 K is Devoe's cold curing zinc-rich primer - it is my understanding that all of Devoe's 302 primers (H, HA, etc.) have virtually identical properties once cured. All distributers that I know of here in Alaska use 302 K. Cheers Paul > The invoice just has devo 302 wrote on it. > > One of my local painters gave me a can of 302 K that was left over from some > plate I missed when I made the original order. > > troller10 wrote: > It probably doesn't matter, but was that Devo Catha-Coat 302H, 302HA, > 302HB? > > I suppose I could just say I wanted a Zinc based primer. > > Thanks, > > Brien > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: >> >> I had mine done with devo 302 zink but I think the wessler primer is > easyer to use for touch up and I dont think there is any mixing. >> Aaron >> >> troller10 wrote: >> I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and > primer the >> steel I'm ordering. >> >> They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. >> >> I told them I'd check on it. >> >> So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brien >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14496|14459|2007-09-25 21:57:46|jrhix_101|DOCKAGEWORLD.COM|A GREAT PLACE TO RENT BUY OR SALE YOUR BOAT DOCK SPACE. www.dockageworld.com| 14497|14381|2007-09-25 22:12:13|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Suitable charting/plotting/piloting/GPS software for use under |Hi Ben, Xtide - excellent download and install no problems. Mxmap - download went fine, attempted to run, found it needed libXm.so.2 so installed lesstif2. That solved the dependency. but now, "Floating point exception (core dumped)" since no source, nothing I can do to fix. However it might have something to do with the fact that I do not have any charts for it. Any idea's? I am running Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 on a Dell Precision M90. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor > Given that caveat: I use 'xtide' for my tide and current predictions, > and 'mxmap' for charting. The latter hasn't been updated in years - the > authors (Mayko) seem to have just disappeared - but it does everything > it should, and a few things that nobody mentions. E.g., if you take a > digital image of any chart, then tell 'mxmap' the lat and long of two > diagonally-opposed corners, it'll let you plot on that image just like > it does on any "standard" chart. There's NO way in hell that any > commercial software is going to let you do that - they want to sell you > their charts - but with 'mxmap', you can download all the free charts > from NOAA/DMA, and never pay for a chart again. > > It does both raster and vector types, allows you to hook a GPS into > it... all the goodies. Although the documentation sucks, the software > itself is nicely intuitive. | 14498|14485|2007-09-25 22:27:31|Carl Anderson|Re: What type of primer?|The steel I got from AJ Foresythe in Nanaimo has something called "shopekote" on it which is German. I used Wasser Miozinc primer for the touch up and after the light sandblasting as my base coat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Aaron Williams wrote: > > > I had mine done with devo 302 zink but I think the wessler primer is > easyer to use for touch up and I dont think there is any mixing. > Aaron > > troller10 > wrote: > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > steel I'm ordering. > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > I told them I'd check on it. > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > Thanks, > > Brien > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14499|14493|2007-09-25 22:42:36|Carl Anderson|Re: Greg, question for you|Well after your question it had me really interested. So I went and had a look at the picture in question since we have a stainless plate on Moonflower of Moab. The boat in the background is DEFINITELY "MUNGO II". So....the guy with the girl at his side must therefore be, by deduction, none other than "Goof", aka Godfrey Stevens! I've heard a LOT about this guy but am still waiting to actually meet him. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com seeratlas wrote: > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > under construction. > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > protector on , looks nifty > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > seer > > | 14500|14493|2007-09-26 00:28:02|seeratlas|Re: Greg, question for you|heheh, so the smaller guy off to the right is Greg? Now I'm curious tho, I'll have to look this guy up LOL. Not a bad looking boat, though I shudder to think what would happen should he roll against the side of a floating dock with those what, swim steps welded on the side? thanks for the heads up :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Well after your question it had me really interested. > So I went and had a look at the picture in question since we have a > stainless plate on Moonflower of Moab. > The boat in the background is DEFINITELY "MUNGO II". > So....the guy with the girl at his side must therefore be, by deduction, > none other than "Goof", aka Godfrey Stevens! > I've heard a LOT about this guy but am still waiting to actually meet him. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > > under construction. > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > protector on , looks nifty > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > seer > > > > > | 14501|14501|2007-09-26 00:31:26|seeratlas|Persistence!!!|Ok, you HAVE to read this guys's site if you haven't seen it yet, lol, give you a hint, he started the hull in 72, and at the moment he's almost, but not quite yet finished, but still working :) heheheh http://seafalcon.org/ In any event, proof positive for all you builders that there's at least one guy out there who's boat is taking a lot longer to finish than yours :) heheheheh seer| 14502|14459|2007-09-26 09:14:42|jrhix_101|DOCKAGEWORLD.COM|A GREAT PLACE TO RENT BUY OR SALE YOUR BOAT DOCK SLIP. www.dockageworld.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14503|14501|2007-09-26 12:14:18|Harry James|Re: Persistence!!!|Construction appeared to keep him young HJ seeratlas wrote: > Ok, you HAVE to read this guys's site if you haven't seen it yet, lol, > give you a hint, he started the hull in 72, and at the moment he's > almost, but not quite yet finished, but still working :) heheheh > > http://seafalcon.org/ > > In any event, proof positive for all you builders that there's at > least one guy out there who's boat is taking a lot longer to finish > than yours :) heheheheh > > seer > > > | 14504|14501|2007-09-26 13:24:04|brentswain38|Re: Persistence!!!|There is an old Chinese proverb that says"A man is like a bicycle , as long as he is moving toward something he is stable. When he stops moving towaard something , he falls over." In short , it is the journey that matters, not the destination. That being said , I prefer to journey under sail, not under a shed forever. To each his own. I've met people who enjoyed the project far more than owning a finished boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > Construction appeared to keep him young > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > Ok, you HAVE to read this guys's site if you haven't seen it yet, lol, > > give you a hint, he started the hull in 72, and at the moment he's > > almost, but not quite yet finished, but still working :) heheheh > > > > http://seafalcon.org/ > > > > In any event, proof positive for all you builders that there's at > > least one guy out there who's boat is taking a lot longer to finish > > than yours :) heheheheh > > > > seer > > > > > > > | 14505|14470|2007-09-26 13:35:33|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Staysails ona removeable inner stay work well for that. At sea I just throw a drogue over the stern in those conditions. Keeping a lot of sea room( 300 miles off the oregon coast) leaves you the option. Never had the problem in 35 years of cruisin. A foam pad along the luff can flatten a roller furling sail when rolled up. The risk of going overboard while changing conventional sails on the foredeck is far more likely. You are far safer eliminating the most probably risks.You can't eliminate them all. If you put reef ponts in a sail, try arrange them at an angle so the sheet lead stays more or less in the same place. To do this , you set a sheeting point for the full sized sail , on a drawing. Then you draw the reefed sail over it and draw a line at the same angle to the same sheet point. Do this with all your reefs and place your clew reef patches accordingly. Then you shouldn't have to change the sheet lead everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink in the sheet and get the perfect angle. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > to do the same with a furler. > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > 11:27 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14506|14470|2007-09-26 13:36:59|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Whatever you do, don't make your reefing lines parallel to the foot of the sail, or you will have to change your sheet leads for every reef. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > to do the same with a furler. > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > 11:27 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14507|14470|2007-09-26 13:43:25|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Karl has a foldboat he has been using more or less full time for 20 years . Still going strong. Too bad they discontinued the rowing version without the transom. The transom is great for motoring, but useless for rowing. Friends who had the aluminium version didn't like it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Re the dinghy, I have to tell you, I have a 12 foot Portaboat that > I've shlepped from Alaska to Baja, not just on a boat, but tied to the > top of a camper etc., and I have yet to find anything I like better. > It folds up to about the size of one of the old time surfboards,and > seems to be essentially indestructable. When I bought mine, the guy > had a video that showed one filled with rocks then dropped from about > ten feet into the water, BIG WHAM!! BIG SPLASH, no leaks, no damage. > > Mine will plane with a 5 horse outboard, a six gallon fuel tank, and > i'm about 230lbs, plus my fishing gear. A friend of mine and I took > two of em out, he had a six evinrude on his, in Baja and we were > caught out fishing some ten miles or so from shore when the weather > came up and all the 25 foot mex boats went steaming in towards shore > fast as they could go. Pretty soon we were the only ones out there > :). Though the seas came up pretty good, the stability of the dinghy > was so good (it literally flexes or 'slithers' through cross seas, > even breaking ones) that we just stayed out fishing, even tho we > looked like petrels out there riding the waves. Caught a goodly amount > of fish including one decent sailfish that dragged my buddy around for > about 45 minutes LOL. He eventually used the motor to fight the fish > to a standstill as the portaboats are so light the fish was > threatening to drag him off into the deep blue :) In any event, > having fought for years with the standard expensivo inflatable, I've > found my dinghy. The ability to fold up and lie inobstrusively on the > cabin top is just gravy. As long as you handle the UV factor, it seems > just about indestructible, oh, and it rows just fine. The Yacht club > types might look twice lol, but for the size boat we're talking about, > it makes a helluva lot of sense. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done > differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of > owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from > scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is > the start: > > > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is > working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue > can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily > switched over to dry from wet. > > > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with > crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. > Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while > hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and > unneccessary. > > > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be > able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the > sail to the boom. > > > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and > waste energy in the form of heat > > > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and > engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in > order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I > still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots > of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. > > > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > > me.... > > > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > > might have done differently :) hehehe > > > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14508|14485|2007-09-26 13:46:27|brentswain38|Re: What type of primer?|Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , or epoxies will fall off in sheets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > steel I'm ordering. > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > I told them I'd check on it. > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > Thanks, > > Brien > | 14509|14470|2007-09-26 13:52:13|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|The one without the furled sail on would eat the furled sail thru in very short time with chafe . Karl left with this arrangement but I suspect it was not for long.You could make the second stay removeable, but the staysail stay would do the same thing, without the chafe problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > How about dual forestays with one roller one hank on. I am looking at a > boat now (not steel) that has dual forestays and I am thinking of going > this route. > > HJ > > Alex Christie wrote: > > I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > > to do the same with a furler. > > > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Alex Christie > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > > wet. > > > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > > boom. > > > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > > energy in the form of heat > > > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > > me.... > > > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > > might have done differently :) hehehe > > > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > > 11:27 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14510|14470|2007-09-26 15:45:08|seeratlas|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask him what it was for, and now I know..:) seer > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > 24/09/2007 > > 11:27 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14511|14470|2007-09-26 15:52:46|seeratlas|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Yeah, mine is the rowing version with the strut/flaps you hook up for motoring, It does both pretty well, and is remarkably stable. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Karl has a foldboat he has been using more or less full time for 20 > years . Still going strong. Too bad they discontinued the rowing > version without the transom. The transom is great for motoring, but > useless for rowing. > Friends who had the aluminium version didn't like it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Re the dinghy, I have to tell you, I have a 12 foot Portaboat that > > I've shlepped from Alaska to Baja, not just on a boat, but tied to the > > top of a camper etc., and I have yet to find anything I like better. > > It folds up to about the size of one of the old time surfboards,and > > seems to be essentially indestructable. When I bought mine, the guy > > had a video that showed one filled with rocks then dropped from about > > ten feet into the water, BIG WHAM!! BIG SPLASH, no leaks, no damage. > > > > Mine will plane with a 5 horse outboard, a six gallon fuel tank, and > > i'm about 230lbs, plus my fishing gear. A friend of mine and I took > > two of em out, he had a six evinrude on his, in Baja and we were > > caught out fishing some ten miles or so from shore when the weather > > came up and all the 25 foot mex boats went steaming in towards shore > > fast as they could go. Pretty soon we were the only ones out there > > :). Though the seas came up pretty good, the stability of the dinghy > > was so good (it literally flexes or 'slithers' through cross seas, > > even breaking ones) that we just stayed out fishing, even tho we > > looked like petrels out there riding the waves. Caught a goodly amount > > of fish including one decent sailfish that dragged my buddy around for > > about 45 minutes LOL. He eventually used the motor to fight the fish > > to a standstill as the portaboats are so light the fish was > > threatening to drag him off into the deep blue :) In any event, > > having fought for years with the standard expensivo inflatable, I've > > found my dinghy. The ability to fold up and lie inobstrusively on the > > cabin top is just gravy. As long as you handle the UV factor, it seems > > just about indestructible, oh, and it rows just fine. The Yacht club > > types might look twice lol, but for the size boat we're talking about, > > it makes a helluva lot of sense. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done > > differently, and I am generating a small list based on the luck of > > owning a floating 36 already, as well as constructing one from > > scratch. My list grows each time I use the floating 36, but here is > > the start: > > > > > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is > > working fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue > > can arise with that system. Brent tells me that this is easily > > switched over to dry from wet. > > > > > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with > > crew, it's nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. > > Fighting in a strong wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while > > hanking on or unhanking the jenny is a pain and feels dangerous and > > unneccessary. > > > > > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be > > able to just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the > > sail to the boom. > > > > > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and > > waste energy in the form of heat > > > > > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and > > engage another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in > > order to change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > > > > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I > > still have not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots > > of articles out there on finding or creating such a thing. > > > > > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > > > > > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > > > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > > > > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > > > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > > > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think > suitable > > > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? > Would you > > > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice > for the > > > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > > > > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > > > > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > > > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > > > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > > > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also > reminds > > > me.... > > > > > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > > > might have done differently :) hehehe > > > > > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > > > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > > > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done > differently and > > > why :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14512|14470|2007-09-26 16:57:42|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works wonders to control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask him what it was for, and now I know..:) seer > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > 24/09/2007 > > 11:27 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14513|14493|2007-09-26 16:58:18|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is Mungo II. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat under construction. couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow protector on , looks nifty last question, is that boat the "bones' ? seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14514|14470|2007-09-26 16:58:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|We used twin forestays, hanked sails, one big sail, one small. Drop one, raise the other depending on conditions. Downwind, pole the smaller to windward. Staysail is fine, but doesn't pull to windward in heavy weather anything like a long thin blade on the headstay. Doesn't happen every day, but in the tropics she will often blow like stink for an hour or two in heat storms, which can come from any direction with little or no warning. You need a way to beat off a lee shore in a hurry, g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry James Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! How about dual forestays with one roller one hank on. I am looking at a boat now (not steel) that has dual forestays and I am thinking of going this route. HJ Alex Christie wrote: > I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such device as desired. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, while > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than trying > to do the same with a furler. > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might work > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in action. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and I > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time I > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise with > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > wet. > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, it's > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a strong > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the jenny > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able to > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > boom. > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > energy in the form of heat > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > me.... > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > might have done differently :) hehehe > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > why :) > > seer > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 > 11:27 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14515|14493|2007-09-26 19:45:13|seeratlas|Re: Greg, question for you|Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build it? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is Mungo II. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > under construction. > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > protector on , looks nifty > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > seer > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14516|14470|2007-09-26 19:58:59|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Friends on their third circumnavigation used to have rings on their forestay. They'd hank the sails on the rings, which rotated and thus didn't wear on any one spot, saving the hanks. I used reef points on my jib on my last boat on a trip to Tahiti and back in 77-78. Worked well, much better than changing sails , but nowhere near as good as roller furling. Used the roller reefed jib frequently beating home 4,000 miles to windward from Tonga twice since 2,000. Would hate to do that trip without roller reefing. Made it from Hawaii to BC twice in 23 days each time, definitely not slow for a heavily loaded twin keeled 31 , close hauled for the first 1,000 miles. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > We used twin forestays, hanked sails, one big sail, one small. Drop one, > raise the other depending on conditions. Downwind, pole the smaller to > windward. > > Staysail is fine, but doesn't pull to windward in heavy weather anything > like a long thin blade on the headstay. Doesn't happen every day, but in > the tropics she will often blow like stink for an hour or two in heat > storms, which can come from any direction with little or no warning. You > need a way to beat off a lee shore in a hurry, > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Harry James > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > How about dual forestays with one roller one hank on. I am looking at a > boat now (not steel) that has dual forestays and I am thinking of going > this route. > > HJ > > Alex Christie wrote: > > I dunno, but both my boats have an inner forestay on which you can hank > anything, such as yankee or stormjib. Perhaps that is how it's done, I dont' > know as I have not been in bluewater with these boats. The furler would have > been very handy for this inner coast work, in any case. The inner forestay > is quite close to the bow, and is demountable with a pelican clip or such > device as desired. > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 4:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > What do you do with the furler when you need to beat to weather in storm > > conditions? I haven't seen furlers that go to weather worth a damn when > > partially furled. Taking off a furling sail and pulling up a smaller one > > can be a huge challenge without hanks. When you are changing sails in a > > blow, lowering the genoa and leaving it hanked on, tied to the rails, > while > > pulling a high cut yankee up above it, can be a lot more secure than > trying > > to do the same with a furler. > > > > More than a few times I've thought reefing points in hanked sails might > work > > better offshore than a furler. Years ago "Because" said they had a design > > for a furler that could take hanked sails, but I never did see it in > action. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Alex Christie > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 2:53 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > Well, seer has asked a question about what would be done differently, and > I > > am generating a small list based on the luck of owning a floating 36 > > already, as well as constructing one from scratch. My list grows each time > I > > use the floating 36, but here is the start: > > > > 1. Dry exhaust: My aft cabin boat has wet exhaust and while it is working > > fine, I think it should be converted to dry so that no issue can arise > with > > that system. Brent tells me that this is easily switched over to dry from > > wet. > > > > 2. Roller furling; for single-handing, it seems a must. Even with crew, > it's > > nice to have. I will definitely have it on my new hull. Fighting in a > strong > > wind and heaving sea on the foredeck while hanking on or unhanking the > jenny > > is a pain and feels dangerous and unneccessary. > > > > 3. Lazy-jacks or some type of mainsail flaking system; you should be able > to > > just drop your main instead of standing on the deck lacing the sail to the > > boom. > > > > 4. LED lights; incandescent interior lights suck up the juice and waste > > energy in the form of heat > > > > 5. Switchable fuel filters; you should be able to flick a lever and engage > > another filter so that you do not have to stop your engine in order to > > change filters. No fun on a lee shore. > > > > 6. A good dinghy, and a way to launch, retreive and store it. I still have > > not figured out the ultimate dingy, though there are lots of articles out > > there on finding or creating such a thing. > > > > There's more, I'm sure, which will come to light over time. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:22 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent, ? Suitable steel for 42-44footer? > > > > This is directed to Brent but I'm posting instead of private mailing > > cause someone else might be interested in his response. > > > > Here's the question Brent, I know you've built some origami's much > > bigger than your 36's and 40's so I thought I'd ask for your > > recommendations on what hull plate thickness would you think suitable > > for something 42 to 44 feet LOD and around 30k displacement? Would you > > think your spec'd plate for the 40 footer would still suffice for the > > slightly larger hull? If not, what would you recommend? > > > > As always, thanks in advance :) > > > > Oh, and for all you builders and 'about to be' builders out > > there...circumstances are *finally* beginning to come together and > > looks like I"m about to transition from the *rough design* to the > > *final design and beginning construction* phase :) which also reminds > > me.... > > > > GORD!!!!!! get that thing in the water so you can tell me what you > > might have done differently :) hehehe > > > > You know, now that I think about it, it might be useful to start a > > thread from those who have completed or nearly completed their boats > > on what in retrospect you all feel you might have done differently and > > why :) > > > > seer > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > 24/09/2007 > > 11:27 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14517|14493|2007-09-26 20:01:31|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . Greg had nothing ot do with it. When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your site with something. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build it? > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is Mungo II. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > > under construction. > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > protector on , looks nifty > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14518|14470|2007-09-26 20:05:44|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail was rolled out again.Worked well Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works wonders to > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > seer > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > 24/09/2007 > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14519|14501|2007-09-26 20:06:31|seeratlas|Re: Persistence!!!|You know, I'm going to have to confess here a bit, lol I was cleaning out an old box of papers from WWAYYYYY back and found a hand penned sketch of a 60 foot schooner I was designing in my mind as a place "to go to to relax" when I was in the service in less than favorable circumstances that I couldn't do anything about at the time. :) Some of my buddies used to kid me about being able to close my eyes and just 'go away' when lots around me were freaking out LOL. No big surprise but some of the design points of that ship, filtered thru the years and experience, have still managed to make it into my *near final* boat design..sooo, I guess from conception to completion, this guy is only 27 years into it,, he's got me by a mile :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > Construction appeared to keep him young > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > Ok, you HAVE to read this guys's site if you haven't seen it yet, lol, > > give you a hint, he started the hull in 72, and at the moment he's > > almost, but not quite yet finished, but still working :) heheheh > > > > http://seafalcon.org/ > > > > In any event, proof positive for all you builders that there's at > > least one guy out there who's boat is taking a lot longer to finish > > than yours :) heheheheh > > > > seer > > > > > > > | 14520|14481|2007-09-26 22:39:33|Tom|Re: now THIS is fast ocean sailing|Now that looks like some awsome sailing, the only thing missing is the trapeze! Looks like a pretty smooth ride for the conditions. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] now THIS is fast ocean sailing > http://youtube.com/watch?v=QZDS3miKQCc > > boy, these guys must have cast iron guts, I don't know how long i > could take that kind of action LOL, would be hella fun for an hour or > so tho LOL. > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14521|14470|2007-09-26 22:40:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|On Opus IV, The gap between the roller furler and the hank on stay is far enough that they have never touched and caused any chafe. The roller furler is attached about 6 inches out on the right end of the bow roller and then goes to the mast head. The hank on stay is attached on the left side on the stem as normal but then goes to an attachment point made from a strap around the mast about 18 inches (?) below the masthead. The upper stays on my boat go through the mast on a large bolt about a foot or so below the mast head and the strap picks up on this bolt. If the forestay and roller stay are able to be kept tight and you can maintain about a 10 inch gap, I don't think they should ever hit each other. When the wind picks up, the staysail on its own inner stay is good for anything else. Maybe one day I will dig up some pictures and post a couple on the website, I will be home in about a month, I hope, Cheers, Paul The one without the furled sail on would eat the furled sail thru in very short time with chafe . Karl left with this arrangement but I suspect it was not for long.You could make the second stay removeable, but the staysail stay would do the same thing, without the chafe problem. Brent ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14522|14522|2007-09-26 22:59:24|Tom|Head Sail|Talking about head sails has me wondering if a blade would work good on a heavyer boat, My 23 merit has one and it works out great in heavy weather its about 95% and full hoist with a few short battons in the leach, sail tracks inboard and forward allows you to point higher and keep the boat a little flater? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14523|14501|2007-09-26 23:25:07|Aaron Williams|Re: Persistence!!!|I would have to agree since starting my second boat only this time is definitely for the journey. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: There is an old Chinese proverb that says"A man is like a bicycle , as long as he is moving toward something he is stable. When he stops moving towaard something , he falls over." In short , it is the journey that matters, not the destination. That being said , I prefer to journey under sail, not under a shed forever. To each his own. I've met people who enjoyed the project far more than owning a finished boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > Construction appeared to keep him young > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > Ok, you HAVE to read this guys's site if you haven't seen it yet, lol, > > give you a hint, he started the hull in 72, and at the moment he's > > almost, but not quite yet finished, but still working :) heheheh > > > > http://seafalcon.org/ > > > > In any event, proof positive for all you builders that there's at > > least one guy out there who's boat is taking a lot longer to finish > > than yours :) heheheheh > > > > seer > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14524|14470|2007-09-27 04:50:40|sae140|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I wonder if the hanks and a hanked furler would make little humps for chafe if they were rolled up with the sail? I've got a brand-new (1 season's use) genoa in my shed which was used with Wykeham-Martin hank-on roller-furling. The guy using it thought that roller-reefing and roller-furling were the same thing, and rather than adopting an "all-in or all-out" approach, he sailed around with the genny half-furled, resulting in multiple chafe holes from the piston hanks. 'Nuff to make a grown man cry .... Colin| 14525|14522|2007-09-27 08:26:56|audeojude|Re: Head Sail|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Talking about head sails has me wondering if a blade would work good on a heavier boat, My 23 merit has one and it works out great in heavy weather its about 95% and full hoist with a few short battens in the leach, sail tracks inboard and forward allows you to point higher and keep the boat a little flatter? > Tom A 100% head sail can work really good for general sailing. I have a friend with a jeneau 43 at about 22000 lbs that replaced a roller furling 135 with a 100. He paid the big bucks and got it from harstick cut specifically for his boat. It actually increased the performance of the boat. the big qualification here is that the said was custom cut to his boat. All the leads hit at perfect angles etc... The older sail was a stock delivery sail that jeneau shipped with the boat about 2 years old. According to my friend there is trend of going to smaller head sails as it makes the most efficient use of the slot effect with the main. My experience with my small boat would bear this out. I had a 100% on my small boat that was a powerhouse. cut well and with battens in the leech it would outperform my 155 in anything over 10 knots of wind. And it could be sailed into much heavier winds than the larger sail. If cutter rig i would think this is a no brainer. A couple of 100% sails on roller reefing gives you a lot of sail when both out but also allows you to go to very small sail area in nasty conditions. No one sail being that big. If you really want something big and light for Light air then get a code zero on removable furler that can go on a adjustable sprit. These boats would be increadabley easy to set up for having a articulated sprit that you could put such a beast on.| 14526|14493|2007-09-27 12:59:13|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, using the plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and table of offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I provided. For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. Probably one of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, dinner and drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in sailing. Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No thanks. Much too expensive for my tastes. Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for people that want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. Boat building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the economics right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays sailing, and may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . Greg had nothing ot do with it. When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your site with something. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build it? > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is Mungo II. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > > under construction. > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > protector on , looks nifty > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14527|14493|2007-09-27 12:59:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|yes _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build it? seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is Mungo II. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > under construction. > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > protector on , looks nifty > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > seer > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14528|14485|2007-09-27 13:44:01|troller10|Re: What type of primer?|Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the application of the primer. I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus all the other steel. And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a lasting coat of paint on it? Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good > as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc > is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the > blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , > or epoxies will fall off in sheets. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > > steel I'm ordering. > > > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > > > I told them I'd check on it. > > > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Brien > > > | 14529|14485|2007-09-27 14:26:46|Tom|Re: What type of primer?|Hello Brien Your in the same situation I was-am, Not being able to get pre primed sheets you have the task of sandblasting and painting yourself, Its a nasty job but doable and more expensive than you think. If I had it do over again I would have blasted and primed the inside of hull when it was still in halfs and bought galvanized sheets for the decks , cabin and angle iron stringers. would have saved a lot of work. Blasting the outside of hull is pretty quick and easy compared to the rest. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "troller10" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What type of primer? > Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source > for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the > application of the primer. > > I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus > all the other steel. > > And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. > > How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a > lasting coat of paint on it? > > Brien > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good >> as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc >> is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the >> blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , >> or epoxies will fall off in sheets. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: >> > >> > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the >> > steel I'm ordering. >> > >> > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. >> > >> > I told them I'd check on it. >> > >> > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Brien >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14530|14485|2007-09-27 20:08:40|Gordon Schnell|Re: What type of primer?|When I bought my 8' x 40' plates, I had them wheel abraided and primed with a weldable primer. It holds up for about a year or until you weld that area. Gord troller10 wrote: > > Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source > for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the > application of the primer. > > I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus > all the other steel. > > And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. > > How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a > lasting coat of paint on it? > > Brien > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good > > as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc > > is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the > > blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , > > or epoxies will fall off in sheets. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "troller10" wrote: > > > > > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > > > steel I'm ordering. > > > > > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > > > > > I told them I'd check on it. > > > > > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > | 14531|14493|2007-09-27 20:12:58|Michael Casling|Re: Greg, question for you|Greg, this is not an exactly civil post from you,is it. Is that how you like to promote your ideas. We have all heard the one about building wealth and equity along the way. That was almost as fuzzy as using credit card debt and borrowing your way to prosperity. Look below at what you have written. Is that really the way to built peace and harmony along the way, as I was doing recently. Actually the truth I was at Whidbey Island for race week, and drunk a bunch of beer with some Yankees. It's your post, you judge it. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > Greg | 14532|14532|2007-09-27 23:03:31|seeratlas|Just when you thought it was safe to go into the water..|Now here's one I've never heard of but damn...Lake Havasu? Wonder where else this thing lives. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298338,00.html seer| 14533|14493|2007-09-28 06:14:13|Alex Christie|Re: Greg, question for you|I'm now having to moderate every single post to remove non-orgami postings that have nothing at all to do with boats, and everything to do with trying pointed comments directed at one person to publicly get their goat, otherwise known as "goading". What a bore. If you messages are delayed all day or even til another day, it's because I'm welding my hull, or sailing my othe boat! 'nuff said. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you Greg, this is not an exactly civil post from you,is it. Is that how you like to promote your ideas. We have all heard the one about building wealth and equity along the way. That was almost as fuzzy as using credit card debt and borrowing your way to prosperity. Look below at what you have written. Is that really the way to built peace and harmony along the way, as I was doing recently. Actually the truth I was at Whidbey Island for race week, and drunk a bunch of beer with some Yankees. It's your post, you judge it. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.32/1033 - Release Date: 27/09/2007 11:06 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14534|14485|2007-09-28 09:21:04|troller10|Re: What type of primer?|Do you remember how much it cost to abrade and paint? Is the weldable primer compatible with the epoxy? Thanks, Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > When I bought my 8' x 40' plates, I had them wheel abraided and primed > with a weldable primer. It holds up for about a year or until you weld > that area. > Gord > > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source > > for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the > > application of the primer. > > > > I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus > > all the other steel. > > > > And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. > > > > How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a > > lasting coat of paint on it? > > > > Brien > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good > > > as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc > > > is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the > > > blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , > > > or epoxies will fall off in sheets. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "troller10" wrote: > > > > > > > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > > > > steel I'm ordering. > > > > > > > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > > > > > > > I told them I'd check on it. > > > > > > > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14535|14535|2007-09-28 09:39:10|troller10|Alex & Brents Video|I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell everyone that it is worth the money. Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel cased Lead). I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges of the keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price from a steel supplier). The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a lot of scrap out of the fields. Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing but no sched 40 pipe). It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch a hull together, but it will be done. Thanks for a great Group Alex. Brien| 14536|14485|2007-09-28 09:46:12|Carl Anderson|Re: What type of primer?|Brien, The cost to me for the "wheel abrade & prime" was about $.40 per pound. My steel cost was about $.60 per pound bringing the total to near $1.00 per pound (for a 10,000 pound order). The Wasser is weldable. I do not know about using epoxy on top of it. I used Wasser from steel to finish coat to keep it compatible. I believe that the Wasser is a little more flexible than cured epoxy as it is urethane. Getting pre-primed steel was one of the MAJOR reasons that we did the steelwork in Canada (not to mention that the main base of skilled artisans that know the design are located there!) Carl troller10 wrote: > > > Do you remember how much it cost to abrade and paint? > > Is the weldable primer compatible with the epoxy? > > Thanks, > Brien > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > When I bought my 8' x 40' plates, I had them wheel abraided and primed > > with a weldable primer. It holds up for about a year or until you weld > > that area. > > Gord > > > > > > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source > > > for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the > > > application of the primer. > > > > > > I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus > > > all the other steel. > > > > > > And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. > > > > > > How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a > > > lasting coat of paint on it? > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" > is good > > > > as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least > 85% zinc > > > > is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the > > > > blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , > > > > or epoxies will fall off in sheets. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "troller10" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and > primer the > > > > > steel I'm ordering. > > > > > > > > > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > > > > > > > > > I told them I'd check on it. > > > > > > > > > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14537|14493|2007-09-28 14:19:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to personal attacks. We had a situation not so long ago where a fight challenge was made over comments posted. In almost every area of life, this problem has been solved through penalizing the instigator. Even hockey has an instigator rule. I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Personal attacks are not permitted on Yahoo and it is well within Alex's authority to ban someone. Until something like this is done, squabbles are inevitable. Someone takes a poke at you, self-defense requires you to act. The resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, events repeat. How about something like this: Someone instigates a personal attack, they get one private warning from Alex, and the next time they are banned for say two weeks. Alex is the sole judge, and there is no appeal. If they continue to repeat, the ban doubles each time. Very quickly they are effectively banned for life. Anyone not support this? Something like this would quickly make Alex's job a whole lot easier. After a couple of people are banned for awhile, personal attacks will be a thing of the past. The bonus side of this - the group will be open to new ideas and new members. Ideas will be fairly debated on their merits. Greg ps: I notice my previous posting was edited, which has obscured the facts of the matter. The facts missing from the posting below : << Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, using the plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and table of offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I provided. << The fiction which instigated these events: >> Greg had nothing ot do with it. << _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:13 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you I'm now having to moderate every single post to remove non-orgami postings that have nothing at all to do with boats, and everything to do with trying pointed comments directed at one person to publicly get their goat, otherwise known as "goading". What a bore. If you messages are delayed all day or even til another day, it's because I'm welding my hull, or sailing my othe boat! 'nuff said. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you Greg, this is not an exactly civil post from you,is it. Is that how you like to promote your ideas. We have all heard the one about building wealth and equity along the way. That was almost as fuzzy as using credit card debt and borrowing your way to prosperity. Look below at what you have written. Is that really the way to built peace and harmony along the way, as I was doing recently. Actually the truth I was at Whidbey Island for race week, and drunk a bunch of beer with some Yankees. It's your post, you judge it. Michael --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > Greg ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.32/1033 - Release Date: 27/09/2007 11:06 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14538|14470|2007-09-28 14:19:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is always the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. Maybe it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, while you can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a sheet has been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the potential for chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, probably second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around a spare halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a safety. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail was rolled out again.Worked well Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works wonders to > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > seer > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > 24/09/2007 > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14539|14535|2007-09-28 14:51:59|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Alex & Brents Video|Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video editing worth it. My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft-facing vents and vent in anchor well. Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep searching so as to avoid regular market cost. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: troller10 Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > everyone that it is worth the money. > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > cased Lead). > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > of the > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > from a > steel supplier). > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > lot of > scrap out of the fields. > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > but no sched 40 pipe). > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > a hull together, but it will be done. > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > Brien > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14540|14493|2007-09-28 15:08:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Greg, question for you|On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > personal attacks. Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Instead, how about this: whenever there's a problem, Alex bans _all_ the participants rather than having to judge who's right and who's wrong. The bans could start at a week and increase by a week every time, with no "reset" to the period - maybe with a "five strikes and you're out" cap. Heck, I'd be happy to write a program that he could use to track everyone's points - free of charge, as my voluntary contribution to making the group better. (Alex, please contact me privately if you'd like this type of counter.) It seems like a _more_ than fair solution to me, and one that would decrease Alex's moderation load to nearly zero - but I *guarantee* that you will find reasons to argue against it. > The > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > events repeat. My solution would prevent that. > After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. Except that your solution permits people who are just out to damage the group and couch their poison in inoffensive-sounding terms to disguise their nature. My solution takes care of _all_ damaging factors of that nature. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14541|14541|2007-09-28 15:16:38|Alex|preventing flames|It would help if everyone realizes that the nature of internet communication is that it tends to magnify certain words, especially pointed ones like "You", or any remotely pointed comments. There is little or no need for that pronoun on this board, too bad I can't filter out all posts with the word "you" in it! It's always used to call someone out. If a post is directed at one person, and it has nothing to do with the technicals about these boats, it won't get through. Keep also in mind that a posting is in fact a kind of "publication", one which hangs around for years to come as your legacy, good or bad. Now you have an editor, but he's not keen on being one forever. One must exercise tact in all posts, and direct one's attention to the subject at hand! Alex| 14542|14541|2007-09-29 04:38:47|seeratlas|Re: preventing flames|I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's tongue stuck securely in one's cheek". It was my impression that most if not all of the participants of this group are grown men and/or women. If someone can't handle themselves in a heated conversation over sailing, trust me, there are far greater dangers confronting them in the world than anything that could possibly be engendered by this group. Brent is, well, "Brent". He has his opinions and is not shy at expressing them, and giving the reasons for them. I find that remarkably refreshing whether I agree with him or not. I feel no great compulsion to try and change Brent. Greg is Greg. He has different opinions which he is fully entitled to. Similarly I see no great reason to try and change Greg. It has been years now that their differences have been expressed on this board...I don't feel threatened by that. Does anyone else? Besides, you never know what might occur over time. Some of you will recall some run-ins I've had with Ben over a number of subjects. Over time it became clear what our disagreements were, but you'd be amazed to know how during the course of some off board email exchanges we've come to understand each other's thinking with more precision, and remarkably have discovered that on several seriously critical matters, just how similar our conclusions are. When it comes down to "I think your a f**king idiot" or something like that, well that's just common decency to moderate that kind of thing out, but that leaves plenty of room for personal 'jibes' that are generally acceptable among 'civilized' democratic nations. For example, I'm reminded of a particularly eloquent exchange in the British Parliament. Seems one mp was prepared to suggest another's proposal was idiocy, but the discussion with something like this.. "Sir, I believe such a proposition must surely issue from a diseased mind!!!" to which the other shot back.. "Well sir, that would suggest that I have embraced your principles, or your mistress". tongue in cheek indeed LOL. Internet forums present the opportunity for everyone's ideas to be 'heard', but guarantees neither acceptance, nor protection from 'sharp' critique. Real life is far more problematic. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > It would help if everyone realizes that the nature of internet > communication is that it tends to magnify certain words, especially > pointed ones like "You", or any remotely pointed comments. There is > little or no need for that pronoun on this board, too bad I can't > filter out all posts with the word "you" in it! It's always used to > call someone out. If a post is directed at one person, and it has > nothing to do with the technicals about these boats, it won't get through. > > Keep also in mind that a posting is in fact a kind of "publication", > one which hangs around for years to come as your legacy, good or bad. > Now you have an editor, but he's not keen on being one forever. > > > > > > > One must exercise tact in all posts, and direct one's attention to the > subject at hand! > > Alex > | 14543|14470|2007-09-29 04:39:18|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is always > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. Maybe > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, while you > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a sheet has > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the potential for > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, probably > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around a spare > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a safety. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > was rolled out again.Worked well > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > wonders to > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > seer > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14544|14493|2007-09-29 04:39:22|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs too much cruisin time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, using the > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and table of > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > provided. > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. Probably one > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, dinner and > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in sailing. > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No thanks. > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for people that > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. Boat > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the economics > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays sailing, and > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > site with something. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > it? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > Mungo II. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > > > under construction. > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14545|14493|2007-09-29 04:39:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|What I have noticed is that many other people have simply given up and left the group when they have been subject to personal attack, so they are no longer here to cause "problems". Ask their opinion. That is the more telling measure of where the problem lies. Sailing offshore is a risky. People want certainty that they will be safe. A cult that tells them they will be safe, so long as they follow the rules, this is a comfort. Cults cannot tolerate contrary opinions, because that means uncertainty. Personal attacks are consistent with cult behavior. No court in the land would punish someone for acting in kind in self defense, as it would be a miscarriage of justice. If the person being attacked doesn't at least yell out, the attack is not likely to stop. Should they then be punished for disturbing the peace with their loud voice? The instigator rule exists for a reason. In sports it was required because otherwise a goon could start beating on the best player on the other team, and both payers would end up off for fighting. What is the objection to the instigator rule? Do we not trust Alex to be fair? Let Alex judge. That is inherent in the role of a moderator, to judge where moderation is required. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:59 AM To: Origami Boat list Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > personal attacks. Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Instead, how about this: whenever there's a problem, Alex bans _all_ the participants rather than having to judge who's right and who's wrong. The bans could start at a week and increase by a week every time, with no "reset" to the period - maybe with a "five strikes and you're out" cap. Heck, I'd be happy to write a program that he could use to track everyone's points - free of charge, as my voluntary contribution to making the group better. (Alex, please contact me privately if you'd like this type of counter.) It seems like a _more_ than fair solution to me, and one that would decrease Alex's moderation load to nearly zero - but I *guarantee* that you will find reasons to argue against it. > The > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > events repeat. My solution would prevent that. > After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. Except that your solution permits people who are just out to damage the group and couch their poison in inoffensive-sounding terms to disguise their nature. My solution takes care of _all_ damaging factors of that nature. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14546|14493|2007-09-29 04:40:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Greg, question for you|This is all so boring and I am sure Alex is tired of it. There must be some kind of history between the people involved because most of the attacks on this website in my opinion have been unwarranted and must stem from something else....please keep it off site. If we all met out in an anchorage somewhere over a few beers, I am sure everyone would get along great. If we couldn't get along, muskets at 20 paces! Either way, problem solved. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:59:06 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > personal attacks. Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Instead, how about this: whenever there's a problem, Alex bans _all_ the participants rather than having to judge who's right and who's wrong. The bans could start at a week and increase by a week every time, with no "reset" to the period - maybe with a "five strikes and you're out" cap. Heck, I'd be happy to write a program that he could use to track everyone's points - free of charge, as my voluntary contribution to making the group better. (Alex, please contact me privately if you'd like this type of counter.) It seems like a _more_ than fair solution to me, and one that would decrease Alex's moderation load to nearly zero - but I *guarantee* that you will find reasons to argue against it. > The > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > events repeat. My solution would prevent that. > After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. Except that your solution permits people who are just out to damage the group and couch their poison in inoffensive- sounding terms to disguise their nature. My solution takes care of _all_ damaging factors of that nature. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14547|14535|2007-09-29 04:40:21|harveyplanes|Re: Alex & Brents Video|I also purchased the video that Alex and Brent made and I thought that it provided a ton of great info into the building process. It is without a doubt worth every cent. If you haven't watched it, and you are considering building your very own Swain boat take a look at it. You won't be sorry. R s/v Ohana JIFD@... -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video editing worth it. > > My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft- facing vents and vent in anchor well. > > Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep searching so as to avoid regular market cost. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: troller10 > Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > > everyone that it is worth the money. > > > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > > cased Lead). > > > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > > of the > > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > > from a > > steel supplier). > > > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > > lot of > > scrap out of the fields. > > > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > > but no sched 40 pipe). > > > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > > a hull together, but it will be done. > > > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > > > Brien > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14548|14548|2007-09-29 04:40:33|seeratlas|Surf's UP!!|This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search=| 14549|14549|2007-09-29 04:40:36|seeratlas|Right of Way|Remember that old saw about the biggest boat has the right of way? lol, there MUST be a real story here somewhere...this just looks soooooo Darwin award'ish LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZPWA_3YfIM seer| 14550|14493|2007-09-29 05:49:57|sae140|Re: Greg, question for you|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > > personal attacks. > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > Let the record speak for itself: if anyone has a passion to investigate and confirm this - then trawl back through the archive posts. The occasional flare-ups on this forum ALWAYS involves the same person, whether or not they are actually 'guilty' of making the personal attacks or not. I would have thought the solution to solving this ongoing scenario is obvious - and if no action is taken, it will simply keep re-occurring. This is normally a helpful and constructive site - in my opinion one of the best on the web - let's try and keep it that way ... Colin| 14551|14541|2007-09-29 07:15:16|Gerd|Re: preventing flames|Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in years. Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their special area of knowledge. So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't bite! ;-) If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal response... don't ban him! ;-) We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's tongue > stuck securely in one's cheek". > | 14552|14548|2007-09-29 11:38:19|Michael Casling|Re: Surf's UP!!|Waves always look big when a large heavy object hits them. Waves are always bigger when reported by the press. A 12 foot tin boat would go over the top of that wave with little problem. Surfers do it all the time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Surf's UP!! This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14553|14553|2007-09-29 12:14:11|SHANE ROTHWELL|Flame prevention|At the same time, certian members of this group (can't imagine who can you??) are well known for spouting such rediculous self serving crap it is extremely difficult not to openly honest about it and scream FRAUD! Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14554|14548|2007-09-29 12:41:08|seeratlas|Re: Surf's UP!!|I dunno michael, i went back and looked again, that's a pretty good sized ferry, being tossed around like a rc controlled model. I've surfed and understand what you are talking about, but anytime you take green water over the bow in a big ship, seems to me a good sized wave. You must have a lot more salt running thru your veins than I do :) heheh. I wouldn't want my 'tin boat' anywhere near that :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Waves always look big when a large heavy object hits them. Waves are always bigger when reported by the press. > A 12 foot tin boat would go over the top of that wave with little problem. Surfers do it all the time. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Surf's UP!! > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14555|14548|2007-09-29 14:37:38|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|pPotos have a way of making rough seas look flat. You are in a gale , take a photo and it comes out looking flat as a millpond. Having a reference objecy in the background helps a lot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Waves always look big when a large heavy object hits them. Waves are always bigger when reported by the press. > A 12 foot tin boat would go over the top of that wave with little problem. Surfers do it all the time. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Surf's UP!! > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14556|14493|2007-09-29 14:45:10|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|We get more interest per day than the politically correct metal boat sites do in a month. Cruisers are not known to bite their tongues a lot. If we were that accepting of being told what to think we would all be living cookie cutter lifestyles, never stepping off the beaten path, from womb to tomb, living life on whatever treadmill were put in front of us , unquestioning .We'd never dream of doing anything as radical as building a boat and sailing away to southern climes. Vive le difference! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > personal attacks. We had a situation not so long ago where a fight > challenge was made over comments posted. In almost every area of life, this > problem has been solved through penalizing the instigator. Even hockey has > an instigator rule. > > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Personal > attacks are not permitted on Yahoo and it is well within Alex's authority to > ban someone. Until something like this is done, squabbles are inevitable. > Someone takes a poke at you, self-defense requires you to act. The > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > events repeat. > > How about something like this: Someone instigates a personal attack, they > get one private warning from Alex, and the next time they are banned for say > two weeks. Alex is the sole judge, and there is no appeal. If they > continue to repeat, the ban doubles each time. Very quickly they are > effectively banned for life. > > Anyone not support this? Something like this would quickly make Alex's job > a whole lot easier. After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. The bonus side of this - the > group will be open to new ideas and new members. Ideas will be fairly > debated on their merits. > > Greg > > ps: > > I notice my previous posting was edited, which has obscured the facts of the > matter. > > The facts missing from the posting below : > > << > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, using the > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and table of > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > provided. > << > > The fiction which instigated these events: > > >> > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > << > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:13 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > I'm now having to moderate every single post to remove non-orgami postings > that have nothing at all to do with boats, and everything to do with trying > pointed comments directed at one person to publicly get their goat, > otherwise known as "goading". What a bore. > > If you messages are delayed all day or even til another day, it's because > I'm welding my hull, or sailing my othe boat! > > 'nuff said. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > Greg, this is not an exactly civil post from you,is it. Is that how > you like to promote your ideas. We have all heard the one about > building wealth and equity along the way. That was almost as fuzzy as > using credit card debt and borrowing your way to prosperity. > Look below at what you have written. Is that really the way to built > peace and harmony along the way, as I was doing recently. > Actually the truth I was at Whidbey Island for race week, and drunk a > bunch of beer with some Yankees. > It's your post, you judge it. > > Michael > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply > shooting their > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is > about > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years > and come > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques > promoted on > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off > without > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs > look at > > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > > > Greg > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.32/1033 - Release Date: 27/09/2007 > 11:06 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14557|14557|2007-09-29 14:49:27|brentswain38|Tranny dipstick|I found it nearly impossible to read the oil level on my shinny steel hurth tranny dipstick, so I roughed it up with a file and burned it black on my galley stove. Now the oil level is easier to read. Brent| 14558|14493|2007-09-29 14:53:04|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|A house , family etc is less expensive than simply owning and living aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in your designing? Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It was a beautiful night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs > too much cruisin time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply > shooting their > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, > using the > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and > table of > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > > provided. > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years > and come > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques > promoted on > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off > without > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs > look at > > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. > Probably one > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, > dinner and > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in > sailing. > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No > thanks. > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for > people that > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. > Boat > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the > economics > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays > sailing, and > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > > site with something. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > > it? > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and > likely > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel > boat > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14559|14485|2007-09-29 14:54:00|brentswain38|Re: What type of primer?|Much easir to touch up the welds than sandblast the works. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > When I bought my 8' x 40' plates, I had them wheel abraided and primed > with a weldable primer. It holds up for about a year or until you weld > that area. > Gord > > > > troller10 wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the feedback on the paint. I have found a good source > > for my steel. But the supplier will not do the abrasive prep and the > > application of the primer. > > > > I dread the thought of preparing and painting two 8'x40' sheets, plus > > all the other steel. > > > > And I can't seem to find anyone to abrade and paint the steel. > > > > How much work is it to clean up the steel sufficiently enough to get a > > lasting coat of paint on it? > > > > Brien > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Devoe has a green primer thats great. Intenational 'Interzinc" is good > > > as is carboweld. Any cold galvanizing primer that is at least 85% zinc > > > is good. Avoid any vinyl primers like International Nu Plate F,the > > > blue or red stuff, or anything that is not compatible wiht epoxies , > > > or epoxies will fall off in sheets. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "troller10" wrote: > > > > > > > > I asked the steel yard to give me a quote to sandblast and primer the > > > > steel I'm ordering. > > > > > > > > They emailed back and asked me what kind of primer I wanted. > > > > > > > > I told them I'd check on it. > > > > > > > > So,..... What kind of primer should I say is needed? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Brien > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14560|14535|2007-09-29 15:05:36|brentswain38|Re: Alex & Brents Video|Weld a piece of plate to the shaft , then pound the shit out of it with a hammer to make sure it is not some exotic alloy that won't weld normally, before you use it.Ditto all scrapyard steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > everyone that it is worth the money. > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > cased Lead). > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges of the > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price from a > steel supplier). > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a lot of > scrap out of the fields. > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > but no sched 40 pipe). > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > a hull together, but it will be done. > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > Brien > | 14561|14535|2007-09-29 15:06:16|brentswain38|Re: Alex & Brents Video|Oil country also has a lot of scrap SS cheap. My Brisbane uncle tells me that the sugar industry also put out lots of scrap stainless, as do brewrys, restaurants, etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Thanks for the compliment, Brien, makes the work of the video editing worth it. > > My bare hull is trimmed out entirely in stainless, and now I feel lucky to have been able to find so much of it in pulp mill country. It's like gold now, that stuff! I have a lovely 4 foot long piece of sch 40 pipe which is I think 7 inch diameter (or maybe 6, I will measure), if someone wants to buy it. It is perfect for the aft-facing vents and vent in anchor well. > > Good luck with your project, and we look forward to hearing how it all goes for you! Very smart to get cracking on the lead-gathering. I dropped the ball on that one and didn't buy when it was cheaper. Some old fart has all the wheel shops tied up with his cannon-ball making biz (for fishing), so I'm out of luck there for it! I will keep searching so as to avoid regular market cost. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: troller10 > Date: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:43 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Alex & Brents Video > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > I received Alex's video a while back, and I just wanted to tell > > everyone that it is worth the money. > > > > Brent makes it look easy, that is for sure. > > > > I have collected 1200 lbs of wheel weights, so far and the local tire > > shop has promised me all I can get from them. Plus, I have a > > connection to a guy that recycles forklift counter weights, (Steel > > cased Lead). > > > > I found the 2.5" dia. solid steel shaft, (for the leading edges > > of the > > keels), at the local steel recycler, (at a third of the price > > from a > > steel supplier). > > > > The prices that the recyclers are paying have really brought a > > lot of > > scrap out of the fields. > > > > Scrap stainless is of hard to find in my area, (lots of thin tubing > > but no sched 40 pipe). > > > > It will take me longer than the 3 weeks it would take Brent to stitch > > a hull together, but it will be done. > > > > Thanks for a great Group Alex. > > > > Brien > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14562|14493|2007-09-29 15:07:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|Brent was challenged to a fight awhile back, nothing to do with me. This time the dispute started between Brent and I. Seems like Brent is the common name in both these cases. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:06 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > > personal attacks. > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > Let the record speak for itself: if anyone has a passion to investigate and confirm this - then trawl back through the archive posts. The occasional flare-ups on this forum ALWAYS involves the same person, whether or not they are actually 'guilty' of making the personal attacks or not. I would have thought the solution to solving this ongoing scenario is obvious - and if no action is taken, it will simply keep re-occurring. This is normally a helpful and constructive site - in my opinion one of the best on the web - let's try and keep it that way ... Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14563|14470|2007-09-29 15:07:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down rope, it moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every time the headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As boat size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the chafe. 3 strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show wear, as compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets are not to everyone's taste. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is always > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. Maybe > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, while you > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a sheet has > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the potential for > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, probably > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around a spare > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a safety. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > was rolled out again.Worked well > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > wonders to > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > seer > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14564|14493|2007-09-29 15:07:43|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|I agree. Really, this matter is between Brent and I. If everyone else would keep their nose out of it, that would end the problems for Alex in an instant. If you aren't party to the conversation, and it isn't about boat building, butt out and give Alex a break. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you This is all so boring and I am sure Alex is tired of it. There must be some kind of history between the people involved because most of the attacks on this website in my opinion have been unwarranted and must stem from something else....please keep it off site. If we all met out in an anchorage somewhere over a few beers, I am sure everyone would get along great. If we couldn't get along, muskets at 20 paces! Either way, problem solved. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik net> To: Origami Boat list yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:59:06 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > personal attacks. Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. Instead, how about this: whenever there's a problem, Alex bans _all_ the participants rather than having to judge who's right and who's wrong. The bans could start at a week and increase by a week every time, with no "reset" to the period - maybe with a "five strikes and you're out" cap. Heck, I'd be happy to write a program that he could use to track everyone's points - free of charge, as my voluntary contribution to making the group better. (Alex, please contact me privately if you'd like this type of counter.) It seems like a _more_ than fair solution to me, and one that would decrease Alex's moderation load to nearly zero - but I *guarantee* that you will find reasons to argue against it. > The > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and this > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > events repeat. My solution would prevent that. > After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. Except that your solution permits people who are just out to damage the group and couch their poison in inoffensive- sounding terms to disguise their nature. My solution takes care of _all_ damaging factors of that nature. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * __________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel. yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14565|14493|2007-09-29 15:08:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|A great meal that costs $5 to many will seem a bargain. However, a poor meal that costs $5 will seem expensive. What makes something expensive is not the price, but the value you receive from it. A house, spouse, family - these items are of great value, because of the opportunity and pleasure they bring. It can be said that living without them makes a man poor. Rather than limit cruising, I found having a house helped finance the cruising. The spouse helped reduce the workload and increase the income, and the family provided many opportunities for adventure and discovery we would not otherwise have had. Go ashore in some remote island with a wife and two small children. You will receive a much different reception that will a single guy arriving on his own. Sacrificing all this just to own a boat? To me that makes a boat the most expensive thing in the world. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs too much cruisin time. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply shooting their > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, using the > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and table of > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > provided. > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years and come > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques promoted on > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off without > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs look at > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. Probably one > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, dinner and > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in sailing. > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No thanks. > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for people that > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. Boat > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the economics > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays sailing, and > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > site with something. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > it? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and likely > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > Mungo II. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel boat > > > under construction. > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14566|14541|2007-09-29 15:09:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: preventing flames|Gerd, The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for you. I answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please point it out, because I can't find it. Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't addressed to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is well known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's comment "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the boat. False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor you are, or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then there is going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few months back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and comment at that time? The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the leader, do as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite your hand off. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in years. Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their special area of knowledge. So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't bite! ;-) If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal response... don't ban him! ;-) We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's tongue > stuck securely in one's cheek". > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14567|14470|2007-09-29 15:13:26|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|You usually adjust it only once for a reef, then it doesn't move on the sheet. Never had a chafe problem there, but I'm considering going for standard becket blocks held up to the top lifeline by shockcord for sheet leads,to eliminate chafe on the fixed block on the rail. Alignment will be better and the shock cord shold stop any banging in a calm. I may wrap the shackles on the bottom in plastic tubing and pump them full of sikaflex to keep them calm while allowing alignment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down rope, it > moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every time the > headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is > decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. > > Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As boat > size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the chafe. 3 > strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show wear, as > compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets are not to > everyone's taste. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific > crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends > for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is > always > > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. > Maybe > > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, while you > > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a sheet has > > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the > potential for > > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, probably > > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around > a spare > > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a > safety. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > > was rolled out again.Worked well > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > > wonders to > > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14568|14493|2007-09-29 15:22:47|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|I've thoroughly enjoyed taking a single mother and her two kids sailing over much of the last 20 years , spoiling them rotten, without the expense of a house, etc.and never having to be the disciplinarian. A house can provide income , once you have paid for it. Its giving up all the cruising it takes to get to that point that I've preferred to avoid, cruising almost full time since my mid 20s, something I would never have given up to be more comfortable now.I couldn't be more comfortable. I've also seen cruises spoiled by people worrying about the house back home , renters moved out after wrecking the place, person in charge of running things having quit, etc, etc. Baggage back home can reduce the carefree nature of cruising that we seek. To each his own.I've no regrets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > A great meal that costs $5 to many will seem a bargain. However, a poor > meal that costs $5 will seem expensive. > > What makes something expensive is not the price, but the value you receive > from it. A house, spouse, family - these items are of great value, because > of the opportunity and pleasure they bring. It can be said that living > without them makes a man poor. > > Rather than limit cruising, I found having a house helped finance the > cruising. The spouse helped reduce the workload and increase the income, > and the family provided many opportunities for adventure and discovery we > would not otherwise have had. Go ashore in some remote island with a wife > and two small children. You will receive a much different reception that > will a single guy arriving on his own. > > Sacrificing all this just to own a boat? To me that makes a boat the most > expensive thing in the world. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs > too much cruisin time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply > shooting their > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, > using the > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and > table of > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > > provided. > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years > and come > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques > promoted on > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off > without > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs > look at > > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. > Probably one > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, > dinner and > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in > sailing. > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No > thanks. > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for > people that > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. > Boat > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the > economics > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays > sailing, and > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > > site with something. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > > it? > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and > likely > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel > boat > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14569|14541|2007-09-29 15:24:56|brentswain38|Re: preventing flames|Give it a miss Greg. Lets get back to boats . How many do you have on the go? Hows Greg James boat comming? Metal work done yet? Have you sold the bones? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Gerd, > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for you. I > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please point it > out, because I can't find it. > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't addressed > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is well > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's comment > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > boat. > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor you are, > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then there is > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few months > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and comment at > that time? > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the leader, do > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite your hand > off. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > years. > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > special area of knowledge. > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > bite! ;-) > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- > project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > tongue > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14570|14493|2007-09-29 16:03:34|sae140|Re: Greg, question for you|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I agree. Really, this matter is between Brent and I. If everyone else > would keep their nose out of it, that would end the problems for Alex in an > instant. If you aren't party to the conversation, and it isn't about boat > building, butt out and give Alex a break. > > Greg > _____ This isn't an appropriate place to hold private conversations or disagreements. This is a publicly accessible group forum where anyone in the world can read the posts and everyone here is entitled to stick their oar in as they wish. If you want to have a private conversation or dispute with somebody, then use email. Colin| 14571|14541|2007-09-29 16:12:31|Gerd|Re: preventing flames|Greg, my point was that I would regret that because the same patterns of discussion coming around every couple of months we would start banning people. We are all grown ups and if we are still here, it means we live with it. It's part of the group's culture I guess... maybe it's even part of what makes it so interesting and alive. Yes, I do think that some of your postings look like bait, and I do think that a some of Brents gruffy statements could do with a frank and less reverential (is that the word i'm looking for?) response... so what? And no, I will not get drawn into a dicussion about the discussion ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Gerd, > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for you. I > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please point it > out, because I can't find it. > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't addressed > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is well > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's comment > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > boat. > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor you are, > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then there is > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few months > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and comment at > that time? > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the leader, do > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite your hand > off. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > years. > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > special area of knowledge. > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > bite! ;-) > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- > project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > tongue > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14572|14493|2007-09-29 16:17:30|sae140|Re: Greg, question for you|Ever thought about running for political office Greg ? I kinda get the feeling you'd be well suited for it ... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Brent was challenged to a fight awhile back, nothing to do with me. This > time the dispute started between Brent and I. Seems like Brent is the > common name in both these cases. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:06 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@ wrote: > > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > > > personal attacks. > > > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ > > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who > > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > > > > Let the record speak for itself: if anyone has a passion to > investigate and confirm this - then trawl back through the archive > posts. The occasional flare-ups on this forum ALWAYS involves the > same person, whether or not they are actually 'guilty' of making the > personal attacks or not. > > I would have thought the solution to solving this ongoing scenario is > obvious - and if no action is taken, it will simply keep re-occurring. > > This is normally a helpful and constructive site - in my opinion one > of the best on the web - let's try and keep it that way ... > > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14573|14541|2007-09-29 16:51:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: preventing flames|On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 07:45:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's tongue > stuck securely in one's cheek". My perspective on this is very similar on a personal level; however, I also believe that a discussion group _has_ to protect itself from trolls. Real-life experience shows that groups which do not do so are destroyed in short order. Incidentally, I speak from personal experience here. I would be very, very surprised to find anyone here who has even a fraction of the Net experience that I have - I have been involved, not only as a participant but as an infrastructure administrator, network engineer, programmer, sysadmin, etc., since the early days. USENET - the precursor to Google Groups, Yahoogroups, etc. - was destroyed specifically by an influx of clueless idiots and trolls (September 1993, a.k.a., "the September that never ended".) http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/September-that-never-ended.html The few groups that survived did so because they had a mechanism to protect themselves - and I'm not speaking of moderation; there are always ways to "work the rules" and still remain a destructive influence. It's called "self-policing" - that is, the members themselves decide what is acceptable in the group, and punish the violations, whether by calling the violator's game, kill-filing them (i.e., blocking them from their own mailbox), laughing them out of the group, or ignoring them except to warn new members (a.k.a., "Don't feed the trolls!") > possibly be engendered by this group. Brent is, well, "Brent". He has > his opinions and is not shy at expressing them, and giving the reasons > for them. I find that remarkably refreshing whether I agree with him > or not. I feel no great compulsion to try and change Brent. Brent contributes a tremendous amount to this group - notably, advice for which any other naval architect would charge an arm and a leg and your first-born child. Because it's free, some people here treat it as of no value, and do not grant him the respect that he deserves for doing so. At a personal level, I find that damn offensive - and speak out against it when I see it. That's not to say that Brent can't be wrong, or shouldn't be called on it when he is. But the man does deserve a lot of recognition for what he does - instead of a constant battle of one-upsmanship from someone who isn't fit to tie his shoes [1]. [1] Alex, please note the absence of the word "you" or any direct personal references. ;-) > Similarly I see no great reason to try and change Greg. It has been > years now that their differences have been expressed on this board...I > don't feel threatened by that. Does anyone else? Threatened, no. Annoyed by the constant high-school peepee-matching contest, yes. More to the point - well, I'll quote Upton Sinclair: "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." > Besides, you never know what might occur over time. Some of you will > recall some run-ins I've had with Ben over a number of subjects. Over > time it became clear what our disagreements were, but you'd be amazed > to know how during the course of some off board email exchanges we've > come to understand each other's thinking with more precision, and > remarkably have discovered that on several seriously critical matters, > just how similar our conclusions are. Agreed - in spades. It's certainly possible to disagree, even bitterly, on a single topic; that happens (and just to acknowledge your point: Seer, you're a fine, smart man, and I'd be happy to share a bottle of the good stuff with you whenever chance offers.) > Seems one mp was prepared to suggest another's > proposal was idiocy, but the discussion with something like this.. > > "Sir, I believe such a proposition must surely issue from a diseased > mind!!!" > > to which the other shot back.. > > "Well sir, that would suggest that I have embraced your principles, > or your mistress". Ah, one of my favorite quotes (I have a long quote file; been collecting them for over 20 years now.) Interestingly, it's often misattributed to Gladstone and Disraeli; it actually dates about 200 years earlier than that. `` John Montagu, Earl of Sandwich: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox." John Wilkes: "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." '' (Oh, where has the fine art of insult gone? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14574|14493|2007-09-29 17:00:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Greg, question for you|On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 02:18:05PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > No court in the land would punish someone for acting in kind in self > defense, as it would be a miscarriage of justice. Self-defense from what? Either a verbal statement is not an attack - in which case you have no basis for a claim of self-defense - or it is an attack, in which case, you're the instigator (just because you used prettier words does not excuse you.) You don't get to have it both ways. I say that the instigator here is the guy who continually drags in some skewed pyramid leverage scheme which is supposed to bring us all untold riches. I, for one, am interested in discussing origami boats - not pyramid schemes. > If the person being > attacked doesn't at least yell out, the attack is not likely to stop. That's a good description, Greg. When you continually disturb the peace here, people yell at you - at which point, you play the injured party (classic troll behavior.) Unless they yell at you, this behavior does not stop. > Should they then be punished for disturbing the peace with their loud voice? Nope. But the original instigator should be. I note, by the way, that you tried to run away from my proposed solution - just as I said you would. I *again* guarantee that you will continue to run away from it - since it punishes trolls. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14575|14493|2007-09-29 18:23:03|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|Give it a miss guys. Ignore any non nautical postings by Greg, an dget back to boats and cruising related topics. Brent .--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 02:18:05PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > > > No court in the land would punish someone for acting in kind in self > > defense, as it would be a miscarriage of justice. > > Self-defense from what? Either a verbal statement is not an attack - in > which case you have no basis for a claim of self-defense - or it is an > attack, in which case, you're the instigator (just because you used > prettier words does not excuse you.) You don't get to have it both ways. > > I say that the instigator here is the guy who continually drags in some > skewed pyramid leverage scheme which is supposed to bring us all untold > riches. I, for one, am interested in discussing origami boats - not > pyramid schemes. > > > If the person being > > attacked doesn't at least yell out, the attack is not likely to stop. > > That's a good description, Greg. When you continually disturb the peace > here, people yell at you - at which point, you play the injured party > (classic troll behavior.) Unless they yell at you, this behavior does > not stop. > > > Should they then be punished for disturbing the peace with their loud voice? > > Nope. But the original instigator should be. > > I note, by the way, that you tried to run away from my proposed solution > - just as I said you would. I *again* guarantee that you will continue > to run away from it - since it punishes trolls. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14576|14493|2007-09-29 18:43:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Greg, question for you|Greg Usually I have the good sense not to get dragged into internet disagreements but a guy can only take so much whining. You come on here and stir up the pot and insult people under the guise of having a differnt opinion and offering advice. At least Brent calls "a spade a spade" and doesn't insult people subtly while trying to pretend to be civil. At the risk of being banned by Alex, STFU Greg!! We don't need insitigator rules or you taking up Alex's or everyone elses time by having this group moderated more closely. We need you to quit being a little baby. You're like the "know it all" kid who is condescending and rude to the other kids and is suprised why nobody likes him or when he gets beat up on the playground during recess. You subject Brent to subtle attacks and us with your "I'm better than everyone attitude" and when you get insulted or threatend by the other "kids" you go running and tell the "teacher" (Alex). Grow up man! Rowland In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > What I have noticed is that many other people have simply given up and left > the group when they have been subject to personal attack, so they are no > longer here to cause "problems". Ask their opinion. That is the more > telling measure of where the problem lies. > > Sailing offshore is a risky. People want certainty that they will be safe. > A cult that tells them they will be safe, so long as they follow the rules, > this is a comfort. Cults cannot tolerate contrary opinions, because that > means uncertainty. Personal attacks are consistent with cult behavior. > > No court in the land would punish someone for acting in kind in self > defense, as it would be a miscarriage of justice. If the person being > attacked doesn't at least yell out, the attack is not likely to stop. > Should they then be punished for disturbing the peace with their loud voice? > > > The instigator rule exists for a reason. In sports it was required because > otherwise a goon could start beating on the best player on the other team, > and both payers would end up off for fighting. > > What is the objection to the instigator rule? Do we not trust Alex to be > fair? Let Alex judge. That is inherent in the role of a moderator, to > judge where moderation is required. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:59 AM > To: Origami Boat list > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > > personal attacks. > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > > > I support Alex banning anyone instigating personal attacks. > > Instead, how about this: whenever there's a problem, Alex bans _all_ the > participants rather than having to judge who's right and who's wrong. > The bans could start at a week and increase by a week every time, with > no "reset" to the period - maybe with a "five strikes and you're out" > cap. Heck, I'd be happy to write a program that he could use to track > everyone's points - free of charge, as my voluntary contribution to > making the group better. > > (Alex, please contact me privately if you'd like this type of counter.) > > It seems like a _more_ than fair solution to me, and one that would > decrease Alex's moderation load to nearly zero - but I *guarantee* that > you will find reasons to argue against it. > > > The > > resulting discord in the group draws the events to Alex's attention and > this > > ends the attacks for awhile. Once Alex gets busy and his back is turned, > > events repeat. > > My solution would prevent that. > > > After a couple of people are banned for awhile, > > personal attacks will be a thing of the past. > > Except that your solution permits people who are just out to damage the > group and couch their poison in inoffensive-sounding terms to disguise > their nature. My solution takes care of _all_ damaging factors of that > nature. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14577|14493|2007-09-29 18:48:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Greg, question for you|VERY well put Ben My comments were more "Swainish" LOL Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 02:18:05PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > > > > No court in the land would punish someone for acting in kind in self > > defense, as it would be a miscarriage of justice. > > Self-defense from what? Either a verbal statement is not an attack - in > which case you have no basis for a claim of self-defense - or it is an > attack, in which case, you're the instigator (just because you used > prettier words does not excuse you.) You don't get to have it both ways. > > I say that the instigator here is the guy who continually drags in some > skewed pyramid leverage scheme which is supposed to bring us all untold > riches. I, for one, am interested in discussing origami boats - not > pyramid schemes. > > > If the person being > > attacked doesn't at least yell out, the attack is not likely to stop. > > That's a good description, Greg. When you continually disturb the peace > here, people yell at you - at which point, you play the injured party > (classic troll behavior.) Unless they yell at you, this behavior does > not stop. > > > Should they then be punished for disturbing the peace with their loud voice? > > Nope. But the original instigator should be. > > I note, by the way, that you tried to run away from my proposed solution > - just as I said you would. I *again* guarantee that you will continue > to run away from it - since it punishes trolls. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14578|14493|2007-09-29 18:52:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Greg, question for you|Greg You're post insinuated that Brent was challenged to a fight and backed down and you were unhappy that he wasn't in the fight or happy he "retreated". Again you're the insitigator. I for one think Brent could hold his own. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Brent was challenged to a fight awhile back, nothing to do with me. This > time the dispute started between Brent and I. Seems like Brent is the > common name in both these cases. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:06 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@ wrote: > > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years due to > > > personal attacks. > > > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly _every_ > > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone else who > > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > > > > Let the record speak for itself: if anyone has a passion to > investigate and confirm this - then trawl back through the archive > posts. The occasional flare-ups on this forum ALWAYS involves the > same person, whether or not they are actually 'guilty' of making the > personal attacks or not. > > I would have thought the solution to solving this ongoing scenario is > obvious - and if no action is taken, it will simply keep re- occurring. > > This is normally a helpful and constructive site - in my opinion one > of the best on the web - let's try and keep it that way ... > > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14579|14579|2007-09-29 19:23:16|harveyplanes|What's the deal here???|I joined this group recently after finding out about the origami boat building method, and Brent Swain's designs. I joined the group looking and hoping to expand my knowledge on the subject as it's limited, as well as to make a few freinds that could assist me with any questions that I might have. On top of that, good old stories and memories of trips and voyages is always a plus. It's friendly, and it's fun. It seems that in the short time that I have been here, and as I look back through past postings, that a few of you spend more time bickering and getting into the bickerings that the boat talk this group was founded for is somewhere floating off in the distance. I have to say that both Brent and Alex have answered a lot of questions for me as well as those of you who have responded to the few postings that I have made. I thank you all, becuase that's why we are here. Is it really that hard to listen to someone and silently disagree as you maintain the respect that they have formed their opinion based on their knowledge just as you have? For those of you who want to continue bickering think about this: People go around every day making fun of other people, making rude comments about other people, making and forming ideas about that person without even knowing them, or trying to understand why they have said what they have said. People are so very eager to form an opinion just for the sake of judging so that they can, in their own minds, be better....and be right. Those people want to feel above and far superior to others, but for what? If we were all the same, how interesting would this world be? Would it be worth it to even build a boat to sail into the sunset on? The differences are what we are all after. That is why we all travel, and take vacations, and trips. So start by smiling at the differences in you own backyard. If we were all the same, this world would be nothing, and I mean nothing shy of boring. Bordom in its truest form and fashion. For those of you who want to argue for only the sake of it, understand that the differences are who we are, and that nothing, nothing is ordinary. If you took out all of the ordinary things in your life, what would be left? Would the conflict you are having today matter if you were to die today? Then why worry about it...| 14580|14493|2007-09-29 22:22:26|seeratlas|Re: Greg, question for you|Actually, I found the old soviet union a MOST accommodating place as a divorced dad with my seven year old daughter :) hehehe. Even kept me from getting tossed in the clink on my way out :) ...but that's a different story not having a lot to do with boats LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > A great meal that costs $5 to many will seem a bargain. However, a poor > meal that costs $5 will seem expensive. > > What makes something expensive is not the price, but the value you receive > from it. A house, spouse, family - these items are of great value, because > of the opportunity and pleasure they bring. It can be said that living > without them makes a man poor. > > Rather than limit cruising, I found having a house helped finance the > cruising. The spouse helped reduce the workload and increase the income, > and the family provided many opportunities for adventure and discovery we > would not otherwise have had. Go ashore in some remote island with a wife > and two small children. You will receive a much different reception that > will a single guy arriving on his own. > > Sacrificing all this just to own a boat? To me that makes a boat the most > expensive thing in the world. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs > too much cruisin time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply > shooting their > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, > using the > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and > table of > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > > provided. > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years > and come > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques > promoted on > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off > without > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs > look at > > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. > Probably one > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, > dinner and > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in > sailing. > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No > thanks. > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for > people that > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. > Boat > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the > economics > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays > sailing, and > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > > site with something. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > > it? > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and > likely > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel > boat > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14581|14548|2007-09-29 22:46:07|Michael Casling|Re: Surf's UP!!|Yes agreed, photos do not do justice to the waves. Could you tell me the average size of waves you have encountered on your trips south. Whether they were wave type, or swell type, and if any were breaking. My plastic boat is just a bit smaller than your boat. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > pPotos have a way of making rough seas look flat. You are in a gale , > take a photo and it comes out looking flat as a millpond. Having a > reference objecy in the background helps a lot. > Brent | 14582|14548|2007-09-29 22:48:33|Michael Casling|Re: Surf's UP!!|Yes it is a good sized wave, and we get to see quite a bit of the boat's bottom. My point should have included the comment that the wave was not breaking. As you know in a small boat you just go up and down, different story if the waves are breaking. I have been too long away from the salt, but that will change. Made it to the coast for this years Swiftsure race and Whidbey Island race week. Hoping to go to the left hand side of Vancouver Island this winter and look for a piece of property. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I dunno michael, i went back and looked again, that's a pretty good > sized ferry, being tossed around like a rc controlled model. I've > surfed and understand what you are talking about, but anytime you take > green water over the bow in a big ship, seems to me a good sized wave. > You must have a lot more salt running thru your veins than I do :) > heheh. I wouldn't want my 'tin boat' anywhere near that :) > > seer > | 14583|14579|2007-09-29 23:08:50|seeratlas|Re: What's the deal here???|Now here's a guy who is destined to be a cruiser, if not one already :) Well said harvey. To be fair tho, there have been some other designs and, designers discussing them, on this board, Gerd, Monsieur Tanton, Old Ben (what happened to old Ben anyway?)and if you take some time to look at Greg's site, you can see his take on just how different in concept one can build using origami methods. Besides, anyone that can weld 4x8' alu alloy into plates straight enough while compensating for the localized loss of strength in the weld, to give a fair curve when pulled together as one sheet, can't be all bad, or incompetent either. Otoh, I don't want him sic'ing the RCMP's on me next time I cross the border either :)(sorry greg, couldn't resist) Plus, practically everyone I've seen that has built a swain boat has done some 'customizing designing' to one degree or another, and often to the consternation if not frustration of Brent LOL. Now I somehow missed the part about the fight, but watching the video of Brent tossing steel plate around, and winging that hammer of his, and understanding the nature of wiry 'tough' little guys (well he's smaller than me :), I'm reminded of the old adage, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight...etc." In any event, if there are to be any "duels", they should be fought in Swain 36's or comparables over a closed course during a decent blow :) I'm sure a number of owners would volunteer to provide the craft, hell, in a bit, our fearless moderator will be able to duel himself LOL. (Alex, now you've gone and got me thinking about that aft cabin... heheh. In any event welcome to the group Harvey :) And as for those who are 'fearful' of honest dispute, I'm reminded of the first thing I ever heard from a sailor..I believe its the Breton Fisherman's Prayer, and correct me if I get it wrong Ben :) but I seem to remember it going something like this- "Lord, thy sea is so great and my ship is so small, (that's the part you hear mostly, but the kicker is the important part) "And my ship in the harbor would be safe..... "But that is NOT what ships are built for..." :) One should know his own measure before one chooses to seek life out on the open sea. It is the careful, the determined, and the internally strong whom she favors. For the foolhardy, the unprepared, and the weak, more often than not, the sea will prove a deadly mistress indeed. seer (sorry for the melodrama but it just 'flowed' right off the keyboard :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > I joined this group recently after finding out about the origami boat > building method, and Brent Swain's designs. I joined the group > looking and hoping to expand my knowledge on the subject as it's > limited, as well as to make a few freinds that could assist me with > any questions that I might have. On top of that, good old stories and > memories of trips and voyages is always a plus. It's friendly, and > it's fun. > > It seems that in the short time that I have been here, and as I look > back through past postings, that a few of you spend more time > bickering and getting into the bickerings that the boat talk this > group was founded for is somewhere floating off in the distance. > > I have to say that both Brent and Alex have answered a lot of > questions for me as well as those of you who have responded to the > few postings that I have made. I thank you all, becuase that's why we > are here. > > Is it really that hard to listen to someone and silently disagree as > you maintain the respect that they have formed their opinion based on > their knowledge just as you have? > > For those of you who want to continue bickering think about this: > > People go around every day making fun of other people, making rude > comments about other people, making and forming ideas about that > person without even knowing them, or trying to understand why they > have said what they have said. People are so very eager to form an > opinion just for the sake of judging so that they can, in their own > minds, be better....and be right. Those people want to feel above and > far superior to others, but for what? > > If we were all the same, how interesting would this world be? Would > it be worth it to even build a boat to sail into the sunset on? The > differences are what we are all after. That is why we all travel, and > take vacations, and trips. So start by smiling at the differences in > you own backyard. If we were all the same, this world would be > nothing, and I mean nothing shy of boring. Bordom in its truest form > and fashion. For those of you who want to argue for only the sake of > it, understand that the differences are who we are, and that nothing, > nothing is ordinary. If you took out all of the ordinary things in > your life, what would be left? > > Would the conflict you are having today matter if you were to die > today? Then why worry about it... > | 14584|14548|2007-09-29 23:26:20|seeratlas|Re: Surf's UP!!|I did the west side once and have to tell you, I envy you. There is some spectacular 'wild' country and wild water worth seeing out there. Sometimes I wonder at what I expect to find in other seas that could possibly match the Pac Northwest:) And I'm sure the Newf's, Med's, Caribb's and Down-Under guys have a similar but opposite thought when getting ready to push off to come here :) Perhaps Brent's recent observation that 'for some its the journey' may hold the answer there:) I recently had occasion to watch the golfing movie, The Legend of Bagger Vance". Bagger's allegorical observation that its "a game that can never be won, only played" rings so true when we finally get old enough to decide for ourselves what game(s) we think are worth playing. Clearly, messing around in boats ranks high on that list. seer > Hoping to go to the left hand side of Vancouver Island this winter and > look for a piece of property. > > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I dunno michael, i went back and looked again, that's a pretty good > > sized ferry, being tossed around like a rc controlled model. I've > > surfed and understand what you are talking about, but anytime you take > > green water over the bow in a big ship, seems to me a good sized wave. > > You must have a lot more salt running thru your veins than I do :) > > heheh. I wouldn't want my 'tin boat' anywhere near that :) > > > > seer > > > | 14585|14579|2007-09-29 23:35:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: What's the deal here???|On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 03:07:20AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > In any event, if there are to be any > "duels", they should be fought in Swain 36's or comparables over a > closed course during a decent blow :) I'm sure a number of owners > would volunteer to provide the craft, hell, in a bit, our fearless > moderator will be able to duel himself LOL. Oh... boy. Seer, you've got me picturing a demolition derby, at sailing speeds, using Swain 36s. That will be one LONG event. :))) > And as for those who are 'fearful' of honest dispute, I'm reminded of > the first thing I ever heard from a sailor..I believe its the Breton > Fisherman's Prayer, and correct me if I get it wrong Ben :) [laugh] Sorry, I'm picky about quotes. It's that thing about giving credit to the person who came up with it... > "Lord, thy sea is so great and my ship is so small, > > (that's the part you hear mostly, but the kicker is the important part) > > "And my ship in the harbor would be safe..... > > "But that is NOT what ships are built for..." > > :) Good one, indeed. The Royal Navy also had something similar: "Men and ships rot in port." Given the kind of port those sailors were drinking, it's no surprise! :) > One should know his own measure before one chooses to seek life out on > the open sea. It is the careful, the determined, and the internally > strong whom she favors. For the foolhardy, the unprepared, and the > weak, more often than not, the sea will prove a deadly mistress indeed. Well said. The thing that I find most interesting is that the first list is serial (i.e., you have to be _all_ of those to do well) while the second one is parallel (any of those will kill you.) That's pretty much always how it is with success vs. failure. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14586|14586|2007-09-29 23:36:01|seeratlas|It's the One you don't see coming..|You hear a lot of talk about the "rogue" wave, this is the first one I've seen caught on camera. Good argument for strong ph's, stout ports of a suitable size, and a hefty rig. seer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfBG11PfCfo&NR=1| 14587|14579|2007-09-30 00:02:02|harveyplanes|Re: What's the deal here???|Ahhhhh, well said, well said Seer. Outstanding!!! I can see it now: The annual BS 36 dual to settle message board diputes. First one to round the can and cross the line wins the argument :)lol For all I need is a ship, Out on the wide sea, A star to steer her by, and no one nagging me!!! As for me. I am only a simple man. For I am not the same one that you met yesterday, nor will I be the same as you will meet tomorrow. I am ever changing, ever shifting, ever evolving into who I am. Into me. Expectations are not necessary. I have none of you. Diversification is what makes this world of ours go 'round.' So get out there. Have fun, and live your life. Don't allow your life to live you. Have a cause that touches your soul, and a meaning that gives your heart a reason for each new beat. It's all about the creation. Not the search... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Now here's a guy who is destined to be a cruiser, if not one already > :) Well said harvey. > > To be fair tho, there have been some other designs and, designers > discussing them, on this board, Gerd, Monsieur Tanton, Old Ben (what > happened to old Ben anyway?)and if you take some time to look at > Greg's site, you can see his take on just how different in concept one > can build using origami methods. Besides, anyone that can weld 4x8' > alu alloy into plates straight enough while compensating for the > localized loss of strength in the weld, to give a fair curve when > pulled together as one sheet, can't be all bad, or incompetent either. > Otoh, I don't want him sic'ing the RCMP's on me next time I cross the > border either :)(sorry greg, couldn't resist) > > Plus, practically everyone I've seen that has built a swain boat has > done some 'customizing designing' to one degree or another, and often > to the consternation if not frustration of Brent LOL. > > Now I somehow missed the part about the fight, but watching the video > of Brent tossing steel plate around, and winging that hammer of his, > and understanding the nature of wiry 'tough' little guys (well he's > smaller than me :), I'm reminded of the old adage, "it's not the size > of the dog in the fight...etc." In any event, if there are to be any > "duels", they should be fought in Swain 36's or comparables over a > closed course during a decent blow :) I'm sure a number of owners > would volunteer to provide the craft, hell, in a bit, our fearless > moderator will be able to duel himself LOL. (Alex, now you've gone and > got me thinking about that aft cabin... heheh. > > In any event welcome to the group Harvey :) > > And as for those who are 'fearful' of honest dispute, I'm reminded of > the first thing I ever heard from a sailor..I believe its the Breton > Fisherman's Prayer, and correct me if I get it wrong Ben :) but I seem > to remember it going something like this- > > "Lord, thy sea is so great and my ship is so small, > > (that's the part you hear mostly, but the kicker is the important part) > > "And my ship in the harbor would be safe..... > > "But that is NOT what ships are built for..." > > :) > > One should know his own measure before one chooses to seek life out on > the open sea. It is the careful, the determined, and the internally > strong whom she favors. For the foolhardy, the unprepared, and the > weak, more often than not, the sea will prove a deadly mistress indeed. > > seer > > (sorry for the melodrama but it just 'flowed' right off the keyboard :) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > I joined this group recently after finding out about the origami boat > > building method, and Brent Swain's designs. I joined the group > > looking and hoping to expand my knowledge on the subject as it's > > limited, as well as to make a few freinds that could assist me with > > any questions that I might have. On top of that, good old stories and > > memories of trips and voyages is always a plus. It's friendly, and > > it's fun. > > > > It seems that in the short time that I have been here, and as I look > > back through past postings, that a few of you spend more time > > bickering and getting into the bickerings that the boat talk this > > group was founded for is somewhere floating off in the distance. > > > > I have to say that both Brent and Alex have answered a lot of > > questions for me as well as those of you who have responded to the > > few postings that I have made. I thank you all, becuase that's why we > > are here. > > > > Is it really that hard to listen to someone and silently disagree as > > you maintain the respect that they have formed their opinion based on > > their knowledge just as you have? > > > > For those of you who want to continue bickering think about this: > > > > People go around every day making fun of other people, making rude > > comments about other people, making and forming ideas about that > > person without even knowing them, or trying to understand why they > > have said what they have said. People are so very eager to form an > > opinion just for the sake of judging so that they can, in their own > > minds, be better....and be right. Those people want to feel above and > > far superior to others, but for what? > > > > If we were all the same, how interesting would this world be? Would > > it be worth it to even build a boat to sail into the sunset on? The > > differences are what we are all after. That is why we all travel, and > > take vacations, and trips. So start by smiling at the differences in > > you own backyard. If we were all the same, this world would be > > nothing, and I mean nothing shy of boring. Bordom in its truest form > > and fashion. For those of you who want to argue for only the sake of > > it, understand that the differences are who we are, and that nothing, > > nothing is ordinary. If you took out all of the ordinary things in > > your life, what would be left? > > > > Would the conflict you are having today matter if you were to die > > today? Then why worry about it... > > > | 14588|14586|2007-09-30 00:41:32|seeratlas|Re: It's the One you don't see coming.."rest of the story"|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8hOai9hGQ&mode=related&search= --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > You hear a lot of talk about the "rogue" wave, this is the first one > I've seen caught on camera. Good argument for strong ph's, stout ports > of a suitable size, and a hefty rig. > > seer > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfBG11PfCfo&NR=1 > | 14589|14579|2007-09-30 04:13:46|sae140|Re: What's the deal here???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > As for me. I am only a simple man. For I am not the same one that you > met yesterday, nor will I be the same as you will meet tomorrow. I am > ever changing, ever shifting, ever evolving into who I am. Into me. > Expectations are not necessary. I have none of you. Diversification > is what makes this world of ours go 'round.' So get out there. Have > fun, and live your life. Don't allow your life to live you. Have a > cause that touches your soul, and a meaning that gives your heart a > reason for each new beat. It's all about the creation. Not the > search... > For some reason, that vaguely reminds me of Max Ehrmann's "Desiterata" - you know, the "Go placidly amidst the noise and haste ..." - as seen in just about every bed-sit in the 60's, alongside the obligatory Che Guevera poster ... Good times (I think ... can't remember much ... ), and all-in-all nice sentiments, but the bit which always frustrated me was the line: "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit." But the damned poem never revealed the secret of HOW to avoid such persons. By their very nature they impose on you. It's like saying "avoid loud mindless (so-called) 'music'" - exactly how you gonna do that ? Keep moving on ? But why should the peaceful folk always have to keep moving away from their sources of irritation ? I don't think running away from a problem ever solves anything. Colin| 14590|14548|2007-09-30 05:18:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: Surf's UP!!|Hi Seer, The astonishing thing about this film is that the Manly ferry runs inside Sydney Harbour from Circular Quay by the Opera House to Manly. There is sometimes a bit of a swell where the ferry crosses the fetch of the harbour mouth but I am awestruck at the size of the wave and the effect on the ferry. Not the sort of thing one would expect on the way to work. If one has a few hours to spend in Sydney the ferry trip from Circular Quay to Manly and its Pacific Ocean beach is usually! a very pleasant way to see the beautiful harbour. My wife and I went on it last June during a stopover on our way back from New Zealand. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > | 14591|14579|2007-09-30 13:56:13|harveyplanes|Re: What's the deal here???|Ahhh, "Desiderata," Latin for, "Things to be desired." There is a lot of truth in that poem and the answers do lie within in. It's all a matter of essentially taking out the trash. The trash being every thought in our feeble little brains that are not important at any one given time. Can you sit on the deck of your boat, look out across the water, and actually have not one thought? Another words can you sit there in total respect, and happiness for what is around you without thoughts of; "Wow, that's pretty," "Wow, that's not," "Why is that like it is?" Can you sit without a single thought and accept that things are the way they are becuase that is the way that they are, and that is what makes it so special? What you will find is worth the search... The, "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit," statement is true in my opinion. It isn't that they are bad, thus the 'loud music,' is not bad, it's that they distact you from one thing. You. No one ever said to run and keep running from those that impose on you. Rather just the opposite. Respect them for who they are as you respect the ocean for what it is. Here's a little story: An elderly Chinese woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water. Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream. 'I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house.' The old woman smiled, 'Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?' 'That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them.' 'For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house.' Each of us has our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and flaws we each have that make our lives together so very interesting and rewarding. You've just got to take each person for what they are and look for the good in them. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > As for me. I am only a simple man. For I am not the same one that you > > met yesterday, nor will I be the same as you will meet tomorrow. I am > > ever changing, ever shifting, ever evolving into who I am. Into me. > > Expectations are not necessary. I have none of you. Diversification > > is what makes this world of ours go 'round.' So get out there. Have > > fun, and live your life. Don't allow your life to live you. Have a > > cause that touches your soul, and a meaning that gives your heart a > > reason for each new beat. It's all about the creation. Not the > > search... > > > > For some reason, that vaguely reminds me of Max Ehrmann's "Desiterata" > - you know, the "Go placidly amidst the noise and haste ..." - as seen > in just about every bed-sit in the 60's, alongside the obligatory Che > Guevera poster ... > > Good times (I think ... can't remember much ... ), and all-in-all nice > sentiments, but the bit which always frustrated me was the line: > "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit." > > But the damned poem never revealed the secret of HOW to avoid such > persons. By their very nature they impose on you. It's like saying > "avoid loud mindless (so-called) 'music'" - exactly how you gonna do > that ? Keep moving on ? But why should the peaceful folk always have > to keep moving away from their sources of irritation ? I don't think > running away from a problem ever solves anything. > Colin > | 14592|14592|2007-09-30 14:02:17|harveyplanes|Mexican Friend & the Starfish|A friend was walking down a deserted Mexican beach at sunset. As he walked along, he began to see another man in the distance. As he grew nearer, he noticed that the local native kept leaning down, picking something up and throwing it out into the water. Time and again he kept hurling things out into the ocean. As my friend approached even closer, he noticed that the man was picking up starfish that had washed up on the beach, and, one at a time, he was throwing them back into the water. My friend was puzzled. He approached the man and said. "Good evening, friend. I was wondering what you were doing." "I'm throwing these starfish back into the ocean. You see, it's low tide right now and all of these starfish have been washed up onto the shore. If I don't throw them back into the sea, they'll die up here from lack of oxygen." "I understand," my friend replied, "but there must be thousands of starfish on this beach. You can't possibly get to all of them. There are simply too many. And don't you realize this is probably happening on hundreds of beaches all up and down this coast. Can't you see that you can't possibly make a difference?" The local native smiled, bent down and picked up yet another starfish, and as he threw it back into the sea, he replied, "Made a difference to that one!"| 14593|14548|2007-09-30 14:06:01|kingsknight4life|Re: Surf's UP!!|I lived in Manly for 3 months while backpacking in Austrlia, NZ & the south Pacific. The area is beautiful and the Ferry ride is spectacular. I was amazed (at the time) seeing the business men dressed in their suits coming home from work "in the city" and openly drinking cases of beer on the foredecks. Liquor laws in Canada would never allow something like that! LOL The crosing can get quite rough though. One time on a way for job inteview, I was up front "enjoying the ride" while most of the other passengers were "safe inside". It was getting choppy but being from the prairies I always took any opportunity availalble to ride "on the water" as I call it. No looking at the sea from inside the cabin for me, I wanted to feel the wind on my face and pretend I was on my own boat. Well I was standing up front when the ferry hit a big wave and green water came over the bow and completely drenched me. I don't think it knocked me off my feet (may have though)but it send my walkman flying across the deck and COMPLETELY soaked me. lol I spent the rest of the trip drying off in the head using paper towels to dry my body and the airdryers to "dry" my clothes. lol I showed up for the interview looking like a drowned rat and needless to say didn't get the job. :) That backpacking trip is what really sparked my interest in boats and travelling and is the reason I'm building a Swain 36 today. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > The astonishing thing about this film is that the Manly ferry runs > inside Sydney Harbour from Circular Quay by the Opera House to Manly. > There is sometimes a bit of a swell where the ferry crosses the fetch > of the harbour mouth but I am awestruck at the size of the wave and > the effect on the ferry. Not the sort of thing one would expect on > the way to work. > > If one has a few hours to spend in Sydney the ferry trip from Circular > Quay to Manly and its Pacific Ocean beach is usually! a very pleasant > way to see the beautiful harbour. My wife and I went on it last June > during a stopover on our way back from New Zealand. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > | 14594|14548|2007-09-30 14:07:00|kingsknight4life|Re: Surf's UP!!|I lived in Manly for 3 months while backpacking in Austrlia, NZ & the south Pacific. The area is beautiful and the Ferry ride is spectacular. I was amazed (at the time) seeing the business men dressed in their suits coming home from work "in the city" and openly drinking cases of beer on the foredecks. Liquor laws in Canada would never allow something like that! LOL The crosing can get quite rough though. One time on a way for job inteview, I was up front "enjoying the ride" while most of the other passengers were "safe inside". It was getting choppy but being from the prairies I always took any opportunity availalble to ride "on the water" as I call it. No looking at the sea from inside the cabin for me, I wanted to feel the wind on my face and pretend I was on my own boat. Well I was standing up front when the ferry hit a big wave and green water came over the bow and completely drenched me. I don't think it knocked me off my feet (may have though)but it send my walkman flying across the deck and COMPLETELY soaked me. lol I spent the rest of the trip drying off in the head using paper towels to dry my body and the airdryers to "dry" my clothes. lol I showed up for the interview looking like a drowned rat and needless to say didn't get the job. :) That backpacking trip is what really sparked my interest in boats and travelling and is the reason I'm building a Swain 36 today. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > The astonishing thing about this film is that the Manly ferry runs > inside Sydney Harbour from Circular Quay by the Opera House to Manly. > There is sometimes a bit of a swell where the ferry crosses the fetch > of the harbour mouth but I am awestruck at the size of the wave and > the effect on the ferry. Not the sort of thing one would expect on > the way to work. > > If one has a few hours to spend in Sydney the ferry trip from Circular > Quay to Manly and its Pacific Ocean beach is usually! a very pleasant > way to see the beautiful harbour. My wife and I went on it last June > during a stopover on our way back from New Zealand. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > | 14595|14548|2007-09-30 14:29:59|harveyplanes|Re: Surf's UP!!|Rowland, That's truly great! I remember the first sailboat that I ever owned and the first time that I took her out. It was a 23 footer. It had one hell of an old outboard (an Eska), and the lower unit was shot. I didn't know a thing about engines at the time so I had no idea the engine had issues. There was an older gentleman, an old crusier, who looked at my older brother and and I and said, "What are you doing here at the dock? Take that boat out. That's where she belongs." So we did. We untied and set off from the marina. We made it a couple of miles up to a river junction. We had planned to turn into the other waterway but the outboard just didn't have it in her to fight the current. We drifted backwards. We set the main only for it to stop about half way up (to which we couldn't lower it either). We threw the anchor out and it drug. We ended up beached on the side of the river at low tide. My brother and I stripped, jumped into the cold winter water and slowly pushed the boat about thirty yards before we said the hell with it. No food, no water, no radio, and one broke engine. The next morning, at high tide, we attempted to crank the old outboard but the pull cord broke. We retied it several times, got the old engine started and made it about a mile before she over heated. We drifted some more to let it cool, ran the engine a few minutes, gave it break, and finally that afternoon, made it back into our slip at the marina. The old guy on his boat next door was waiting for us. He looked us up and down and said, "I thought we were going to have to come after you." I looked at him, exhausted, and said, "I wish that you would have. It was a rough night." Then he looked at us for a few minutes, a smile creeping across his face, as he said, "I could have. But I didn't, and now you have story." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I lived in Manly for 3 months while backpacking in Austrlia, NZ & > the south Pacific. The area is beautiful and the Ferry ride is > spectacular. I was amazed (at the time) seeing the business men > dressed in their suits coming home from work "in the city" and > openly drinking cases of beer on the foredecks. Liquor laws in > Canada would never allow something like that! LOL > > The crosing can get quite rough though. One time on a way for job > inteview, I was up front "enjoying the ride" while most of the other > passengers were "safe inside". It was getting choppy but being from > the prairies I always took any opportunity availalble to ride "on > the water" as I call it. No looking at the sea from inside the cabin > for me, I wanted to feel the wind on my face and pretend I was on my > own boat. Well I was standing up front when the ferry hit a big wave > and green water came over the bow and completely drenched me. I > don't think it knocked me off my feet (may have though)but it send > my walkman flying across the deck and COMPLETELY soaked me. lol I > spent the rest of the trip drying off in the head using paper towels > to dry my body and the airdryers to "dry" my clothes. lol I showed > up for the interview looking like a drowned rat and needless to say > didn't get the job. :) That backpacking trip is what really sparked > my interest in boats and travelling and is the reason I'm building a > Swain 36 today. > > Rowland > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Seer, > > > > The astonishing thing about this film is that the Manly ferry runs > > inside Sydney Harbour from Circular Quay by the Opera House to > Manly. > > There is sometimes a bit of a swell where the ferry crosses the > fetch > > of the harbour mouth but I am awestruck at the size of the wave > and > > the effect on the ferry. Not the sort of thing one would expect > on > > the way to work. > > > > If one has a few hours to spend in Sydney the ferry trip from > Circular > > Quay to Manly and its Pacific Ocean beach is usually! a very > pleasant > > way to see the beautiful harbour. My wife and I went on it last > June > > during a stopover on our way back from New Zealand. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > > > > | 14596|14548|2007-09-30 17:49:14|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|Too bad cruising in Aussi has gotten so bureaucratic and expensive. This month's Lattitudes&Attitudes has an article about low budget Pacific crossing. Glad I did the S pacific when I did . Harbour fees have gone up exponentialy in many places especially Aussi. There are still some reasonable places ,but they are declining in number. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > I lived in Manly for 3 months while backpacking in Austrlia, NZ & > the south Pacific. The area is beautiful and the Ferry ride is > spectacular. I was amazed (at the time) seeing the business men > dressed in their suits coming home from work "in the city" and > openly drinking cases of beer on the foredecks. Liquor laws in > Canada would never allow something like that! LOL > > The crosing can get quite rough though. One time on a way for job > inteview, I was up front "enjoying the ride" while most of the other > passengers were "safe inside". It was getting choppy but being from > the prairies I always took any opportunity availalble to ride "on > the water" as I call it. No looking at the sea from inside the cabin > for me, I wanted to feel the wind on my face and pretend I was on my > own boat. Well I was standing up front when the ferry hit a big wave > and green water came over the bow and completely drenched me. I > don't think it knocked me off my feet (may have though)but it send > my walkman flying across the deck and COMPLETELY soaked me. lol I > spent the rest of the trip drying off in the head using paper towels > to dry my body and the airdryers to "dry" my clothes. lol I showed > up for the interview looking like a drowned rat and needless to say > didn't get the job. :) That backpacking trip is what really sparked > my interest in boats and travelling and is the reason I'm building a > Swain 36 today. > > Rowland > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Seer, > > > > The astonishing thing about this film is that the Manly ferry runs > > inside Sydney Harbour from Circular Quay by the Opera House to > Manly. > > There is sometimes a bit of a swell where the ferry crosses the > fetch > > of the harbour mouth but I am awestruck at the size of the wave > and > > the effect on the ferry. Not the sort of thing one would expect > on > > the way to work. > > > > If one has a few hours to spend in Sydney the ferry trip from > Circular > > Quay to Manly and its Pacific Ocean beach is usually! a very > pleasant > > way to see the beautiful harbour. My wife and I went on it last > June > > during a stopover on our way back from New Zealand. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > This one must have had a high 'pucker' factor :) heheh > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkET0rJX00I&mode=related&search= > > > > > > | 14597|14548|2007-09-30 17:51:29|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|95% of the time they were less than 5 feet , especially in the tropics, but you still have to be ready to handle the big ones. Biggest were around 25 to 30 feet.Quite rare tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > Yes agreed, photos do not do justice to the waves. > Could you tell me the average size of waves you have encountered on > your trips south. Whether they were wave type, or swell type, and if > any were breaking. My plastic boat is just a bit smaller than your boat. > > Michael > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > pPotos have a way of making rough seas look flat. You are in a gale , > > take a photo and it comes out looking flat as a millpond. Having a > > reference objecy in the background helps a lot. > > Brent > | 14598|14548|2007-09-30 18:01:38|peter_d_wiley|Re: Surf's UP!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Too bad cruising in Aussi has gotten so bureaucratic and expensive. > This month's Lattitudes&Attitudes has an article about low budget > Pacific crossing. Glad I did the S pacific when I did . Harbour fees > have gone up exponentialy in many places especially Aussi. There are > still some reasonable places ,but they are declining in number. Has it got bad? As an Aussie, I don't really notice. I know parts of the Barrier Reef are more difficult, but where I live in Tasmania, nobody really gives a damn about hassling yachties. I think you can get a berth right in the centre of the city for around $60/week, and I know you can anchor out down the D'Entrecasteaux Channel a ways for free, for as long as you like. I've had liveaboards out the front of my place for a year not so long ago, and nobody hassled them. Sydney Harbour & Broken Bay are bad for liveaboards, that I do know, but most of Australia still has a lot of places to hang out in peace. They're typically a fair way from big cities, is all. PDW| 14599|14541|2007-09-30 18:29:37|peter_d_wiley|Re: preventing flames|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 07:45:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's tongue > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > My perspective on this is very similar on a personal level; however, I > also believe that a discussion group _has_ to protect itself from trolls. > Real-life experience shows that groups which do not do so are destroyed > in short order. > > Incidentally, I speak from personal experience here. I would be very, > very surprised to find anyone here who has even a fraction of the Net > experience that I have - I have been involved, not only as a participant > but as an infrastructure administrator, network engineer, programmer, > sysadmin, etc., since the early days. USENET - the precursor to Google > Groups, Yahoogroups, etc. - was destroyed specifically by an influx of > clueless idiots and trolls (September 1993, a.k.a., "the September that > never ended".) Well, not wanting to bother doing the who's done what thing, but I've been in networking stuff here in Oz since 1980. CSIRONET was a forerunner to the internet as it exists now. We built the local internet along with the universities at the time. I'm back into s/ware development these days after a 6 year sojourn as a manager of a marine engineering group. If you were active prior to 1980, fine, but you're not the only one about whose memory stretches back to uucp and the like for shifting files, or the annoyances of configuring sendmail in the old days. As to Usenet being destroyed, crap. Sorry, Ben, but it is. It's alive and well. Some of your groups may have been trashed, but I've been on rec.crafts.metalworking for over 10 years and it's still there, still active. Alt.sailing.asa has had a couple of serious attacks from the trollers and basically survived fine, as most of the players had self-discipline and knew how to use killfiles and the like. I prefer Usenet because I can d/load posts to my offline newsreader and write replies at my leisure. Anyway, I don't care about the occasional disagreements that veer into the personal. My take on the 'sail now on someone else's dollar' is that it's snake oil. PDW| 14600|14548|2007-09-30 20:41:25|seeratlas|Re: Surf's UP!!|You know, it was a hella long time ago, early 70's, but while doing some R&R in aussieland, I had occasion to be invited out on a boat for a party, in a major harbor I'm not even sure now of where it was. (Damn they have some serious beer down-under :), anyway, here I was half-well maybe a bit more than 'half' lol, bombed in this little bitty overloaded tender when we passed what I thought was a chunk of a rather large tree, that seemed to be moving on its own...When we got up close I nearly piss'd myself when I looked down at maybe the second or third biggest crocodile I've ever seen!! just swimming across the harbor as if it was out on a sunday cruise... seer PS. this actually worked out as I had the presence of mind to reach up and snatch the arm of the rather buxom young lady sitting next to me who was carelessly trailing said appendage in the water at the time. At the same moment I raised the alarm to which the girls all squealed in terror, while one of the other guys observed that maybe we could try and catch it LOL. Gotta love those Aussies heheheh. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Too bad cruising in Aussi has gotten so bureaucratic and expensive. > > This month's Lattitudes&Attitudes has an article about low budget > > Pacific crossing. Glad I did the S pacific when I did . Harbour fees > > have gone up exponentialy in many places especially Aussi. There are > > still some reasonable places ,but they are declining in number. > > Has it got bad? As an Aussie, I don't really notice. I know parts of > the Barrier Reef are more difficult, but where I live in Tasmania, > nobody really gives a damn about hassling yachties. I think you can > get a berth right in the centre of the city for around $60/week, and I > know you can anchor out down the D'Entrecasteaux Channel a ways for > free, for as long as you like. I've had liveaboards out the front of > my place for a year not so long ago, and nobody hassled them. > > Sydney Harbour & Broken Bay are bad for liveaboards, that I do know, > but most of Australia still has a lot of places to hang out in peace. > They're typically a fair way from big cities, is all. > > PDW > | 14601|14557|2007-09-30 20:54:28|silascrosby|Re: Tranny dipstick|Brent, aside from the difficulty reading the dipstick on the Hurth,you have mentioned the problem with these dipsticks dropping off the cap and being lost in the gears. What did you do about that ? Steve BTW, there may be a few of us having a little rendezvous, probably in Desolation the week after next ,around Oct 7-10 or so.Check with Karl if you are still on the mud.| 14602|14470|2007-09-30 21:11:12|silascrosby|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Brent and Greg, I sometimes use the loop of line around the sheet as a 'tweaker' and I have used the rolling hitch method as well. No chafe with either,inshore or offshore.Also, neither method will allow much sheet adjustment after setting up. Even with my high cut Yankee (~ 110 %) I still need to adjust the lead angle when it's reefed ( if I am trying to sail to weather). Brent, with your planned Becket blocks will there be any hardware in the air to flail around as a weapon or what ? Better for sail trim but scary during a tack. Like those expensive jib sheet shackles that are so common. Steve > > You usually adjust it only once for a reef, then it doesn't move on > the sheet. Never had a chafe problem there, but I'm considering going > for standard becket blocks held up to the top lifeline by shockcord > for sheet leads,to eliminate chafe on the fixed block on the rail. > Alignment will be better and the shock cord shold stop any banging in > a calm. > I may wrap the shackles on the bottom in plastic tubing and pump them > full of sikaflex to keep them calm while allowing alignment. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down > rope, it > > moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every time the > > headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is > > decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. > > > > Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As > boat > > size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the > chafe. 3 > > strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show wear, as > > compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets > are not to > > everyone's taste. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific > > crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends > > for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is > > always > > > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. > > Maybe > > > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, > while you > > > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > > > > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a > sheet has > > > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > > > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > > > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > > > > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the > > potential for > > > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > > > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > > > > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, > probably > > > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around > > a spare > > > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a > > safety. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > > > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > > > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > > > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > > > was rolled out again.Worked well > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > > > wonders to > > > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a > line > > > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put > a kink > > > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release > Date: > > > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14603|14541|2007-09-30 21:33:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: preventing flames|On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 10:29:30PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Incidentally, I speak from personal experience here. I would be very, > > very surprised to find anyone here who has even a fraction of the Net > > experience that I have - I have been involved, not only as a participant > > but as an infrastructure administrator, network engineer, programmer, > > sysadmin, etc., since the early days. USENET - the precursor to Google > > Groups, Yahoogroups, etc. - was destroyed specifically by an influx of > > clueless idiots and trolls (September 1993, a.k.a., "the September that > > never ended".) > > Well, not wanting to bother doing the who's done what thing, but I've > been in networking stuff here in Oz since 1980. CSIRONET was a > forerunner to the internet as it exists now. Only on your side of the pond, of course. Here, it was all about ARPANET and informal UUCP networks (with DEC/SCI/MIL/various "nets" hanging off the sides.) > We built the local > internet along with the universities at the time. I'm back into s/ware > development these days after a 6 year sojourn as a manager of a marine > engineering group. Me, I'm building trusted networks and teaching programming and network security. The stories from the old days come in -very- handy as illustrations. :) > If you were active prior to 1980, fine, but you're not the only one > about whose memory stretches back to uucp and the like for shifting > files, or the annoyances of configuring sendmail in the old days. Only since about 1978. In computer time, that's eons. :) > As to Usenet being destroyed, crap. Sorry, Ben, but it is. It's alive > and well. I'm afraid that you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't claim that every single individual USENET group was destroyed; my position is that USENET's usefulness *as a social tool* has been wiped out. Frankly, I'm rather surprised that you'd miss that - although perhaps the Australian hackers didn't get to deal with these burning freedom-of- communication issues that we fought for so hard on this side of the big water in those years. My point isn't that soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm or rec.arts.underwater.basketweaving still exist or not - hell, I still read comp.lang.perl.misc as I have for many years. The point is that few, if any, new USENET groups are created - and that a huge number have moved to Yahoo or Google, thus letting the control of their key resource (free communications) fall into the hands of someone outside the group. *That* is the dynamic that's been destroyed: the people who are the most directly concerned with the well-being of a group are no longer the ones who control it. Thus, virtually the end of free speech; thus, people like Greg threatening those who do their best for the benefit of the group but violate some nebulous policy that has nothing to do with the interests of the group itself. Freedom is one of the most difficult things to win - and one of the easiest to lose, since it requires *educated*, interested participants. Shifting from USENET to Yahoo, etc., is a very definite loss of freedom - and it happened because of poor design (scalability, if you will) of USENET. That, in detail, is what I was trying to say. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14604|14541|2007-10-01 02:12:28|seeratlas|Re: preventing flames|WAIT A MINUTE!!!! what am I missing here? I thought Al Gore invented the Internet!!!!! :) hehehe, sorry, couldn't resist. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 10:29:30PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > Incidentally, I speak from personal experience here. I would be very, > > > very surprised to find anyone here who has even a fraction of the Net > > > experience that I have - I have been involved, not only as a participant > > > but as an infrastructure administrator, network engineer, programmer, > > > sysadmin, etc., since the early days. USENET - the precursor to Google > > > Groups, Yahoogroups, etc. - was destroyed specifically by an influx of > > > clueless idiots and trolls (September 1993, a.k.a., "the September that > > > never ended".) > > > > Well, not wanting to bother doing the who's done what thing, but I've > > been in networking stuff here in Oz since 1980. CSIRONET was a > > forerunner to the internet as it exists now. > > Only on your side of the pond, of course. Here, it was all about ARPANET > and informal UUCP networks (with DEC/SCI/MIL/various "nets" hanging off > the sides.) > > > We built the local > > internet along with the universities at the time. I'm back into s/ware > > development these days after a 6 year sojourn as a manager of a marine > > engineering group. > > Me, I'm building trusted networks and teaching programming and network > security. The stories from the old days come in -very- handy as > illustrations. :) > > > If you were active prior to 1980, fine, but you're not the only one > > about whose memory stretches back to uucp and the like for shifting > > files, or the annoyances of configuring sendmail in the old days. > > Only since about 1978. In computer time, that's eons. :) > > > As to Usenet being destroyed, crap. Sorry, Ben, but it is. It's alive > > and well. > > I'm afraid that you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't claim that > every single individual USENET group was destroyed; my position is that > USENET's usefulness *as a social tool* has been wiped out. Frankly, I'm > rather surprised that you'd miss that - although perhaps the Australian > hackers didn't get to deal with these burning freedom-of- communication > issues that we fought for so hard on this side of the big water in those > years. > > My point isn't that soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm or > rec.arts.underwater.basketweaving still exist or not - hell, I still > read comp.lang.perl.misc as I have for many years. The point is that > few, if any, new USENET groups are created - and that a huge number have > moved to Yahoo or Google, thus letting the control of their key resource > (free communications) fall into the hands of someone outside the group. > *That* is the dynamic that's been destroyed: the people who are the most > directly concerned with the well-being of a group are no longer the ones > who control it. Thus, virtually the end of free speech; thus, people > like Greg threatening those who do their best for the benefit of the > group but violate some nebulous policy that has nothing to do with the > interests of the group itself. > > Freedom is one of the most difficult things to win - and one of the > easiest to lose, since it requires *educated*, interested participants. > Shifting from USENET to Yahoo, etc., is a very definite loss of freedom > - and it happened because of poor design (scalability, if you will) of > USENET. That, in detail, is what I was trying to say. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14605|14579|2007-10-01 08:19:28|sae140|Re: What's the deal here???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > Ahhh, "Desiderata," Latin for, "Things to be desired." There is a lot > of truth in that poem and the answers do lie within in. It's all a > matter of essentially taking out the trash. The trash being every > thought in our feeble little brains that are not important at any one > given time. Can you sit on the deck of your boat, look out across the > water, and actually have not one thought? Another words can you sit > there in total respect, and happiness for what is around you without > thoughts of; "Wow, that's pretty," "Wow, that's not," "Why is that > like it is?" Can you sit without a single thought and accept that > things are the way they are becuase that is the way that they are, > and that is what makes it so special? Ah - but I'm not talking about when on the boat. That's when the impositions of others usually isn't a problem. That's one of the joys of boats - and for myself a key reason for owning one - a means of getting away from the petty irritations of land-based life. People often talk about the need to "get away from it all" - and although I can't be absolutely sure, I think by 'all' they are referring to the impositions of others: noise, stress, demands, pollution, annoyances ... those kinds of thing. Colin| 14606|14463|2007-10-01 13:12:46|aaron riis|Re: BS 36 Aft cabin for sale|Hey Alex, Sorry that I missed you this summer on Vancouver Island We are back on Rainy Haida Gwaii now. I'm very interested in your 36 for sale when i started my 26 footer I was single, now I have a wife and 2 kids. The aft cabin may make sense. Aaron --- Alex Christie wrote: > Well, I lucked into a very cheap rental spot to live > with room right beside the building for my bare hull > to be worked on (it is here now, I'll post a photo > of it on the group), so I'm happy to carry on with > my original hull. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Pronk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 36 Aft cabin for > sale > > > Wow Alex > that is less then three years rent! and then you > own the boat and you > can take it anywhere! But where are you going to > live? $26500 won't buy > you a good new car, and you can't live in a car, > well you can (and I > have) but who wants to do that!!! > Good luck and sorry to hear that you are selling > your boat. If I could > swing it I would be out there with a bucket full > of cash to take that > boat from you! James. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > My BS 36 aft-cabin sailboat will be for sale > this week for $26500 > firm. I will soon start repainting and a few > repairs, after which I > will be putting it on the regular market for sale > at a price which more > reflects its value, so this is a limited time > offer. I've decided to > put all energy and resources at the bare hull and > the ensuing film I > will produce, and I'm passing on my floating > sistership to someone who > wants a good boat. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 > - Release Date: 24/09/2007 11:27 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html| 14607|14470|2007-10-01 15:54:02|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|With a good shock cord holding the block up toward the top lifeline there should be no flailing. With the bottom shackles encased in plastic tubing and Sikaflex( the cheaper lepages Brand ) There should be no rattling from that end either. If you take in lots of the tweaker when reefing , it's much easier to let some out,than to take more in once you've reefed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent and Greg, I sometimes use the loop of line around the sheet as a > 'tweaker' and I have used the rolling hitch method as well. No chafe > with either,inshore or offshore.Also, neither method will allow much sheet > adjustment after setting up. > > Even with my high cut Yankee (~ 110 %) I still need to adjust the lead > angle when it's reefed ( if I am trying to sail to weather). > > Brent, with your planned Becket blocks will there be any hardware in > the air to flail around as a weapon or what ? Better for sail trim but > scary during a tack. Like those expensive jib sheet shackles that are > so common. > Steve > > > > You usually adjust it only once for a reef, then it doesn't move on > > the sheet. Never had a chafe problem there, but I'm considering going > > for standard becket blocks held up to the top lifeline by shockcord > > for sheet leads,to eliminate chafe on the fixed block on the rail. > > Alignment will be better and the shock cord shold stop any banging in > > a calm. > > I may wrap the shackles on the bottom in plastic tubing and pump them > > full of sikaflex to keep them calm while allowing alignment. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down > > rope, it > > > moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every > time the > > > headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is > > > decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. > > > > > > Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As > > boat > > > size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the > > chafe. 3 > > > strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show > wear, as > > > compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets > > are not to > > > everyone's taste. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific > > > crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends > > > for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is > > > always > > > > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. > > > Maybe > > > > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, > > while you > > > > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > > > > > > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a > > sheet has > > > > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do > with it? > > > > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work > in the > > > > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > > > > > > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the > > > potential for > > > > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it > simple > > > > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to > adjust. > > > > > > > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, > > probably > > > > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around > > > a spare > > > > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a > > > safety. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > > > > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I > would > > > > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > > > > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and > the sail > > > > was rolled out again.Worked well > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > > > > wonders to > > > > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > > > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot > to ask > > > > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a > > line > > > > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put > > a kink > > > > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release > > Date: > > > > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14608|14493|2007-10-01 15:57:32|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|The other guy suggested the sporting activity amoung consenting adults. I merely offered the use of our ring and gloves for the event. For us boxers , a single round that is extremely unlikely to go more than 20 seconds is no big deal .So relax. Perhaps he followed my suggestion for all bear huggers; that he go to Churchill and give a big hug to one of those big pretty white ones.Is that where he went? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Greg > > You're post insinuated that Brent was challenged to a fight and > backed down and you were unhappy that he wasn't in the fight or > happy he "retreated". Again you're the insitigator. I for one think > Brent could hold his own. > > Rowland > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Brent was challenged to a fight awhile back, nothing to do with > me. This > > time the dispute started between Brent and I. Seems like Brent is > the > > common name in both these cases. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of sae140 > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:06 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:12:42AM -0700, ge@ wrote: > > > > This group has lost many valuable contributors over the years > due to > > > > personal attacks. > > > > > > Greg, have you ever noticed how you're at the focus of nearly > _every_ > > > _single_ _problem_ on this list? I have. I'm sure that everyone > else who > > > has been here for a while has. I'm certain that Alex has. > > > > > > > Let the record speak for itself: if anyone has a passion to > > investigate and confirm this - then trawl back through the archive > > posts. The occasional flare-ups on this forum ALWAYS involves the > > same person, whether or not they are actually 'guilty' of making > the > > personal attacks or not. > > > > I would have thought the solution to solving this ongoing scenario > is > > obvious - and if no action is taken, it will simply keep re- > occurring. > > > > This is normally a helpful and constructive site - in my opinion > one > > of the best on the web - let's try and keep it that way ... > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14609|14557|2007-10-01 16:06:02|brentswain38|Re: Tranny dipstick|I took a single strand from a piece of 1/4 inch stainless 1X19 rigging wire , wound it thru the hole joining the two halves of the tranny, then bent a 90 on the end to put thru the vent hole in the top of the dipstick.It springs in and can be sprung out to unscrew the dipstick. Two of my Hurth trannys have ate their dipsticks , and a friend had the same thing happen. Queer thing for a tranny to do.Eat their own dipsticks. The first time it was salvageable , the second time it went thru the gears, at night. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Brent, aside from the difficulty reading the dipstick on the Hurth,you > have > mentioned the problem with these dipsticks dropping off the cap and > being lost in the gears. What did you do about that ? Steve > BTW, there may be a few of us having a little rendezvous, probably in > Desolation the week after next ,around Oct 7-10 or so.Check with Karl > if you are still on the mud. > | 14610|14548|2007-10-01 16:16:08|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|They send divers down and if you bottom looks like it hasn't been painted in two years , you are ordered to spend $700 on haulout and are allowed to use only their own paint. Visas are only for three months , then get very expensive, and you are required to fly to another country to get it renewed. If you can't afford that, your are forced out to sea in hurricane season , even if there is a hurricane in the area , in violation of all international law. You are required to inform them of your arrival in writing 48 hours in advance. Hard to do at sea or in a third world country. You take your chances of your message having ever got there.If you try this via Beluga Diving in Tonga , where they take your money and don't bother to send the message, you are in for a huge fine. Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low income cruisers. We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse bureaucrats subject our visitors to.I heard of a Swede who wanted to leave his boat here and fly back to Sweden for a two week visitwith is family. He was told that was not allowed.Perhaps it's time we asked visitors how they were treated and lobby for them in political debates.What goes around comes around. This type of action worldwide will benefit all us cruisers . We who live here can't be kicked out for asking questions, on behalf of anonymous foreign cruisers. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Too bad cruising in Aussi has gotten so bureaucratic and expensive. > > This month's Lattitudes&Attitudes has an article about low budget > > Pacific crossing. Glad I did the S pacific when I did . Harbour fees > > have gone up exponentialy in many places especially Aussi. There are > > still some reasonable places ,but they are declining in number. > > Has it got bad? As an Aussie, I don't really notice. I know parts of > the Barrier Reef are more difficult, but where I live in Tasmania, > nobody really gives a damn about hassling yachties. I think you can > get a berth right in the centre of the city for around $60/week, and I > know you can anchor out down the D'Entrecasteaux Channel a ways for > free, for as long as you like. I've had liveaboards out the front of > my place for a year not so long ago, and nobody hassled them. > > Sydney Harbour & Broken Bay are bad for liveaboards, that I do know, > but most of Australia still has a lot of places to hang out in peace. > They're typically a fair way from big cities, is all. > > PDW > | 14611|14579|2007-10-01 16:20:33|brentswain38|Re: What's the deal here???|I think the politically correct sites have bored all their people away. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Now here's a guy who is destined to be a cruiser, if not one already > :) Well said harvey. > > To be fair tho, there have been some other designs and, designers > discussing them, on this board, Gerd, Monsieur Tanton, Old Ben (what > happened to old Ben anyway?)and if you take some time to look at > Greg's site, you can see his take on just how different in concept one > can build using origami methods. Besides, anyone that can weld 4x8' > alu alloy into plates straight enough while compensating for the > localized loss of strength in the weld, to give a fair curve when > pulled together as one sheet, can't be all bad, or incompetent either. > Otoh, I don't want him sic'ing the RCMP's on me next time I cross the > border either :)(sorry greg, couldn't resist) > > Plus, practically everyone I've seen that has built a swain boat has > done some 'customizing designing' to one degree or another, and often > to the consternation if not frustration of Brent LOL. > > Now I somehow missed the part about the fight, but watching the video > of Brent tossing steel plate around, and winging that hammer of his, > and understanding the nature of wiry 'tough' little guys (well he's > smaller than me :), I'm reminded of the old adage, "it's not the size > of the dog in the fight...etc." In any event, if there are to be any > "duels", they should be fought in Swain 36's or comparables over a > closed course during a decent blow :) I'm sure a number of owners > would volunteer to provide the craft, hell, in a bit, our fearless > moderator will be able to duel himself LOL. (Alex, now you've gone and > got me thinking about that aft cabin... heheh. > > In any event welcome to the group Harvey :) > > And as for those who are 'fearful' of honest dispute, I'm reminded of > the first thing I ever heard from a sailor..I believe its the Breton > Fisherman's Prayer, and correct me if I get it wrong Ben :) but I seem > to remember it going something like this- > > "Lord, thy sea is so great and my ship is so small, > > (that's the part you hear mostly, but the kicker is the important part) > > "And my ship in the harbor would be safe..... > > "But that is NOT what ships are built for..." > > :) > > One should know his own measure before one chooses to seek life out on > the open sea. It is the careful, the determined, and the internally > strong whom she favors. For the foolhardy, the unprepared, and the > weak, more often than not, the sea will prove a deadly mistress indeed. > > seer > > (sorry for the melodrama but it just 'flowed' right off the keyboard :) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > I joined this group recently after finding out about the origami boat > > building method, and Brent Swain's designs. I joined the group > > looking and hoping to expand my knowledge on the subject as it's > > limited, as well as to make a few freinds that could assist me with > > any questions that I might have. On top of that, good old stories and > > memories of trips and voyages is always a plus. It's friendly, and > > it's fun. > > > > It seems that in the short time that I have been here, and as I look > > back through past postings, that a few of you spend more time > > bickering and getting into the bickerings that the boat talk this > > group was founded for is somewhere floating off in the distance. > > > > I have to say that both Brent and Alex have answered a lot of > > questions for me as well as those of you who have responded to the > > few postings that I have made. I thank you all, becuase that's why we > > are here. > > > > Is it really that hard to listen to someone and silently disagree as > > you maintain the respect that they have formed their opinion based on > > their knowledge just as you have? > > > > For those of you who want to continue bickering think about this: > > > > People go around every day making fun of other people, making rude > > comments about other people, making and forming ideas about that > > person without even knowing them, or trying to understand why they > > have said what they have said. People are so very eager to form an > > opinion just for the sake of judging so that they can, in their own > > minds, be better....and be right. Those people want to feel above and > > far superior to others, but for what? > > > > If we were all the same, how interesting would this world be? Would > > it be worth it to even build a boat to sail into the sunset on? The > > differences are what we are all after. That is why we all travel, and > > take vacations, and trips. So start by smiling at the differences in > > you own backyard. If we were all the same, this world would be > > nothing, and I mean nothing shy of boring. Bordom in its truest form > > and fashion. For those of you who want to argue for only the sake of > > it, understand that the differences are who we are, and that nothing, > > nothing is ordinary. If you took out all of the ordinary things in > > your life, what would be left? > > > > Would the conflict you are having today matter if you were to die > > today? Then why worry about it... > > > | 14612|10771|2007-10-01 19:12:37|Tom|BS 26 progress|Hello All Well finaly got back after it again, hadnt touched the boat in a few months, Spot blasted a few areas little grinding here and there, changed the deck drains to a lot bigger. Had 1" pipe welded in for the drains, not near big enough, cut 3-1/2"x 1-1/2" openings now it drains quick and I can wash down the decks. Reprimed the cabin struture and a few spots on the hull and started painting the hull with epoxy, didnt go so well tryed following the manufacture's label and not thin more than 10% for spraying with HVLP gun, tryed different guns, more air and nothing worked right, sprayed like cottage cheeze. Finaly after 1/2 done and pissed off I added another 7% to the mix and wala painted nice and smooth. Thats one thing Ive never been able to figure out all the epoxy's I have used say the same 10% but it dont work 15 to 20% works fine and I have never seen any problem with it, even underwater barier coats held up fine with 15% mix. I guess it falls under the catagory of do what works not what the experts tell you. It is nice seeing some color on the boat "white" but now you can see every weld, dimple in the sun light . I think what I am going to do is shoot about 4 heavy coats and then sand with air board and use a little epoxy fairing compound here and there to make it look good . 10 gage is not the easeyest to work with and keep really streight. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14613|14579|2007-10-01 20:09:05|Tom|Re: What's the deal here???|I think the politically correct sites have bored all their people away. Brent Yep This one is kinda interesting, never know whats going to come up next. Tom| 14614|10771|2007-10-01 22:17:12|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: BS 26 progress|Thanks for the update Tom and glad to hear you are back at it. Cheers Paul > Hello All > Well finaly got back after it again, hadnt touched the boat in a few months, Spot > blasted a few areas little grinding here and there, changed the deck drains to a > lot bigger. Had 1" pipe welded in for the drains, not near big enough, cut 3-1/2"x > 1-1/2" openings now it drains quick and I can wash down the decks. Reprimed the > cabin struture and a few spots on the hull and started painting the hull with > epoxy, didnt go so well tryed following the manufacture's label and not thin more > than 10% for spraying with HVLP gun, tryed different guns, more air and nothing > worked right, sprayed like cottage cheeze. Finaly after 1/2 done and pissed off I > added another 7% to the mix and wala painted nice and smooth. Thats one thing Ive > never been able to figure out all the epoxy's I have used say the same 10% but it > dont work 15 to 20% works fine and I have never seen any problem with it, even > underwater barier coats held up fine with 15% mix. I guess it falls under the > catagory of do what works not what the experts tell you. It is nice seeing some > color on the boat "white" but now you can see every weld, dimple in the sun light . > I think what I am going to do is shoot about 4 heavy coats and then sand with air > board and use a little epoxy fairing compound here and there to make it look good . > 10 gage is not the easeyest to work with and keep really streight. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14615|14541|2007-10-01 22:43:53|peter_d_wiley|Re: preventing flames|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I'm afraid that you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't claim that > every single individual USENET group was destroyed; my position is that > USENET's usefulness *as a social tool* has been wiped out. Frankly, I'm > rather surprised that you'd miss that - although perhaps the Australian > hackers didn't get to deal with these burning freedom-of- communication > issues that we fought for so hard on this side of the big water in those > years. OK, I understand the point you're trying to make now. Yes, I agree that things like Google Groups are inherently less 'free' than the Usenet groups. Most of which were/are unmoderated. I think the reasons people have migrated to places like Google Groups is as a basic response to the signal/noise ratio. I spend more time on the Practical Machinist board than I do on r.c.m these days because I got sick of all the OT posts. Back in the early 90's traffic was maybe 40 posts/day and we all knew each other. Now it's some ridiculous figure and the crossposting messes everything up. If this was a Usenet n/g, I would have killfiled Greg by now. I can't offhand recall his contributions being very useful in any engineering or fabrication areas, and what little there may have been is outweighed by his bullshit output. Almost on-topic, I pulled out some of my nice air dried 6" x 2" blue gum timber yesterday, in anticipation of maybe building a Buehler POGO soon. Practice for a bigger boat and I want a bigger toy than my current daysailer. Now I don't have to spend most of every summer in the Antarctic or on call, I can get back to boats. I've considered building the POGO from aluminium, but I have a lot of timber in search of a project, so... PDW| 14616|14616|2007-10-01 23:03:05|Aaron|How to level for and aft|What is good way to level a BS 36 for and aft when raising up to set the bilge Keels. Or what is a proper waterline Aaron| 14617|14541|2007-10-02 00:43:13|Ben Okopnik|Re: preventing flames|On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 02:43:23AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > I think the reasons > people have migrated to places like Google Groups is as a basic > response to the signal/noise ratio. I'm with you, there. Some groups, like comp.lan.perl.misc, have always had a vetting mechanism; they're still around and fully functional, with nearly zero noise. However, most of these folks are not only good hackers - they are also very Net-savvy old-timers, and understand the social aspects of keeping a group alive, and are *not* shy about doing so. > If this was a Usenet n/g, I would have killfiled Greg by now. I can't > offhand recall his contributions being very useful in any engineering > or fabrication areas, and what little there may have been is > outweighed by his bullshit output. Yes, well... I couldn't have put it any better myself. :) > Almost on-topic, I pulled out some of my nice air dried 6" x 2" blue > gum timber yesterday, in anticipation of maybe building a Buehler POGO > soon. Practice for a bigger boat and I want a bigger toy than my > current daysailer. Now I don't have to spend most of every summer in > the Antarctic or on call, I can get back to boats. I've considered > building the POGO from aluminium, but I have a lot of timber in search > of a project, so... Sweet! I've always liked Buehler's work - particularly one of the big schooners that he's got in his book, the one that he talks about using to trade in the Pacific and just running up on the beach whenever you feel like it. One of these days, I'll either commit to building a Brentboat, or weld a nice 1/4" SS shoe on the bottom of Ulysses' keel... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14618|14548|2007-10-02 04:35:50|Wally Paine|Re: Surf's UP!!|That's Customs and Immigration everywhere. In the UK they have less legal constraint than the police. Especially when dealing with non European Union citizens. With or without boats. I had twenty years of it, living in the U.K. and travelling across borders as a Zimbabwean citizen. I've finally given up on my homeland and become a naturalised Brit. Wally Paine --- brentswain38 wrote: > They send divers down and if you bottom looks like > it hasn't been > painted in two years , you are ordered to spend $700 > on haulout and > are allowed to use only their own paint. Visas are > only for three > months , then get very expensive, and you are > required to fly to > another country to get it renewed. If you can't > afford that, your are > forced out to sea in hurricane season , even if > there is a hurricane > in the area , in violation of all international law. > You are required > to inform them of your arrival in writing 48 hours > in advance. Hard to > do at sea or in a third world country. You take your > chances of your > message having ever got there.If you try this via > Beluga Diving in > Tonga , where they take your money and don't bother > to send the > message, you are in for a huge fine. > Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low > income cruisers. > We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse > bureaucrats subject > our visitors to.I heard of a Swede who wanted to > leave his boat here > and fly back to Sweden for a two week visitwith is > family. He was told > that was not allowed.Perhaps it's time we asked > visitors how they were > treated and lobby for them in political debates.What > goes around comes > around. This type of action worldwide will benefit > all us cruisers . > We who live here can't be kicked out for asking > questions, on behalf > of anonymous foreign cruisers. > Brent > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Too bad cruising in Aussi has gotten so > bureaucratic and expensive. > > > This month's Lattitudes&Attitudes has an article > about low budget > > > Pacific crossing. Glad I did the S pacific when > I did . Harbour fees > > > have gone up exponentialy in many places > especially Aussi. There are > > > still some reasonable places ,but they are > declining in number. > > > > Has it got bad? As an Aussie, I don't really > notice. I know parts of > > the Barrier Reef are more difficult, but where I > live in Tasmania, > > nobody really gives a damn about hassling > yachties. I think you can > > get a berth right in the centre of the city for > around $60/week, and I > > know you can anchor out down the D'Entrecasteaux > Channel a ways for > > free, for as long as you like. I've had > liveaboards out the front of > > my place for a year not so long ago, and nobody > hassled them. > > > > Sydney Harbour & Broken Bay are bad for > liveaboards, that I do know, > > but most of Australia still has a lot of places to > hang out in peace. > > They're typically a fair way from big cities, is > all. > > > > PDW > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/| 14619|14548|2007-10-02 05:41:45|sae140|Re: Surf's UP!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low income cruisers. > We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse bureaucrats subject > our visitors to. A couple of months ago I discovered by chance that New Zealand has relaxed it's entry procedure and that visas are no longer required (for UK folk). In contrast, it's neighbour Oz retains tough and uncertain entry restrictions, with a situation where 'the guy on the desk' can let you stay or not, depending on whether he likes the look of you. Apparently that's the same in Canada and Panama. Curious, I spent a few hours researching the global visa situation (sad or what ?) In case it's of help to anyone else, I've posted my findings (current as at 6/2007) in the \files directory. Colin| 14620|14620|2007-10-02 06:11:24|mickeyolaf|Possible BS 26 mast.|There is a 29'4" mast with 8'8" boom for sale by bid on ebay right now. Don't know whether it would work with the BS 26 but thought I would let BS 26 builders know. Price is at $89.00 right now. Item #180163832572.| 14621|14620|2007-10-02 10:55:54|Tom|Re: Possible BS 26 mast.|Hello Mickey Thanks for the heads up but at 29'4" its a tad short from the plan if I recall right its about 33' Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Possible BS 26 mast. > There is a 29'4" mast with 8'8" boom for sale by bid on ebay right > now. Don't know whether it would work with the BS 26 but thought I > would let BS 26 builders know. Price is at $89.00 right now. > Item #180163832572. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14622|14548|2007-10-02 15:12:09|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|New Zealand , being asmall conveniently located country has a lot of boat related businesses that have become quite dependent on cruisers. A few years ago when they drastically tightened regulations on cruisers, they found out the hard way how dependent they had become. Ditto Mexico, which has drasticallly reduced it's bureaucracy. I meet a growing number of cruisers who bypass French Polynesia for the same reasons. Hopefully , Mexico will see a big leap in revenue from cruisers, that other countries can learn from. I'll bring up Canadas beligerence and make it an issue with politicoes in the comming election.I suggest that other Canadians do likewise. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low income cruisers. > > We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse bureaucrats subject > > our visitors to. > > A couple of months ago I discovered by chance that New Zealand has > relaxed it's entry procedure and that visas are no longer required > (for UK folk). In contrast, it's neighbour Oz retains tough and > uncertain entry restrictions, with a situation where 'the guy on the > desk' can let you stay or not, depending on whether he likes the look > of you. Apparently that's the same in Canada and Panama. > Curious, I spent a few hours researching the global visa situation > (sad or what ?) In case it's of help to anyone else, I've posted my > findings (current as at 6/2007) in the \files directory. > > Colin > | 14623|10771|2007-10-02 15:15:31|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 progress|Any time you can still see the weld pattern on any steel boat paint, it aint thick enough. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Well finaly got back after it again, hadnt touched the boat in a few months, Spot blasted a few areas little grinding here and there, changed the deck drains to a lot bigger. Had 1" pipe welded in for the drains, not near big enough, cut 3-1/2"x 1-1/2" openings now it drains quick and I can wash down the decks. Reprimed the cabin struture and a few spots on the hull and started painting the hull with epoxy, didnt go so well tryed following the manufacture's label and not thin more than 10% for spraying with HVLP gun, tryed different guns, more air and nothing worked right, sprayed like cottage cheeze. Finaly after 1/2 done and pissed off I added another 7% to the mix and wala painted nice and smooth. Thats one thing Ive never been able to figure out all the epoxy's I have used say the same 10% but it dont work 15 to 20% works fine and I have never seen any problem with it, even underwater barier coats held up fine with 15% mix. I guess it falls under the catagory of do what works not what the experts tell you. It is nice seeing some color on the boat "white" but now you can see every weld, dimple in the sun light . I think what I am going to do is shoot about 4 heavy coats and then sand with air board and use a little epoxy fairing compound here and there to make it look good . 10 gage is not the easeyest to work with and keep really streight. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14624|14616|2007-10-02 15:21:02|brentswain38|Re: How to level for and aft|Measure from the bottom of the bulwark pipe , along the bow plate to where 4 ft 6 inches crosses the stem. That is the foreward waterline empty. At the stern I use the bottom of the transom. Transfer these inside, then string a line between them . Put your spirit level on this line and jack up bow or stern until it's level. Then you can use a level for building your interior. That is the waterline dead empty so raise it 6 inches opr more for painting, depending on how much of a packrat you are. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > What is good way to level a BS 36 for and aft when raising up to set > the bilge Keels. > Or what is a proper waterline > Aaron > | 14625|14541|2007-10-02 23:29:42|peter_d_wiley|Re: preventing flames|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > Almost on-topic, I pulled out some of my nice air dried 6" x 2" blue > > gum timber yesterday, in anticipation of maybe building a Buehler POGO > > soon. Practice for a bigger boat and I want a bigger toy than my > > current daysailer. Now I don't have to spend most of every summer in > > the Antarctic or on call, I can get back to boats. I've considered > > building the POGO from aluminium, but I have a lot of timber in search > > of a project, so... > > Sweet! I've always liked Buehler's work - particularly one of the big > schooners that he's got in his book, the one that he talks about using > to trade in the Pacific and just running up on the beach whenever you > feel like it. ARCHIMEDES is my favourite in the big boats. Lotta displacement there. One of these days, I'll either commit to building a > Brentboat, or weld a nice 1/4" SS shoe on the bottom of Ulysses' keel... Having bought Alex's DVD I am impressed with the construction sequence (as well as the DVD quality). I have no doubt that I could build one, and the 36' design is on my short short-list. I may retire properly in another 18 months, at which point I'd have the time to do what I want. Already got the shop etc all set up, just too damn busy for another big project ATM. PDW| 14626|14548|2007-10-02 23:41:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: Surf's UP!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > They send divers down and if you bottom looks like it hasn't been > painted in two years , you are ordered to spend $700 on haulout and > are allowed to use only their own paint. Visas are only for three > months , then get very expensive, and you are required to fly to > another country to get it renewed. If you can't afford that, your are > forced out to sea in hurricane season , even if there is a hurricane > in the area , in violation of all international law. You are required > to inform them of your arrival in writing 48 hours in advance. Hard to > do at sea or in a third world country. You take your chances of your > message having ever got there.If you try this via Beluga Diving in > Tonga , where they take your money and don't bother to send the > message, you are in for a huge fine. I suspect that these regs (or the enforcement of them) depend on where you enter Australia. Down here, things are pretty laid back. WRT visas and the like, yeah, I can't say I'm real surprised. I also can't see it changing as the bureaucrats neither understand nor like people who can & do come and go as they please. I thought getting up to 12 months was relatively simple for people from 1st World countries, but you *had* to re-export the boat within 12 months or it was deemed to have been imported and duty/GST was payable. Could be wrong, tho. Concerning the notification in advance thing, I'm pretty sure it's a MINIMUM of 48 hours, with a planned ETA. If so I can't see the big deal, given the availability of internet cafes etc. I know you can do it by email, so you send them an email before you leave Vanuatu or whatever. Given it's a PITA, it's not an impossible one. Nobody said you have to have a working radio, or even a radio at all, AFAIK. > Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low income cruisers. > We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse bureaucrats subject > our visitors to.I heard of a Swede who wanted to leave his boat here > and fly back to Sweden for a two week visitwith is family. He was told > that was not allowed.Perhaps it's time we asked visitors how they were > treated and lobby for them in political debates.What goes around comes > around. This type of action worldwide will benefit all us cruisers . > We who live here can't be kicked out for asking questions, on behalf > of anonymous foreign cruisers. > Brent Good idea. I'm planning on coming over to Vancouver in 2009 and want to stay a while. If it's more hassle than it was living in the USA, which I did some years ago, I may have to reconsider. PDW| 14627|14579|2007-10-03 06:26:24|Jim Baltaxe|Re: What's the deal here??? Off Topic but important|Hi Harvey &al Thank you very much for the lovely story about the Chinese lady. It is going to a close friend of mine who is battling depression; it is just the tonic she will take some strength from. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe 209 Derwent Street Island Bay, Wellington NEW ZEALAND +64 (04) 938 6018 027 563 5018 They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of harveyplanes Sent: Monday, 1 October 2007 6:56 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What's the deal here??? Ahhh, "Desiderata," Latin for, "Things to be desired." There is a lot of truth in that poem and the answers do lie within in. It's all a matter of essentially taking out the trash. The trash being every thought in our feeble little brains that are not important at any one given time. Can you sit on the deck of your boat, look out across the water, and actually have not one thought? Another words can you sit there in total respect, and happiness for what is around you without thoughts of; "Wow, that's pretty," "Wow, that's not," "Why is that like it is?" Can you sit without a single thought and accept that things are the way they are becuase that is the way that they are, and that is what makes it so special? What you will find is worth the search... The, "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit," statement is true in my opinion. It isn't that they are bad, thus the 'loud music,' is not bad, it's that they distact you from one thing. You. No one ever said to run and keep running from those that impose on you. Rather just the opposite. Respect them for who they are as you respect the ocean for what it is. Here's a little story: An elderly Chinese woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water. Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream. 'I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house.' The old woman smiled, 'Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?' 'That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them.' 'For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house.' Each of us has our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and flaws we each have that make our lives together so very interesting and rewarding. You've just got to take each person for what they are and look for the good in them. Recent Activity * 6 New Members * 1 New Links Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Game Day Companion Live fantasy league & game stats on TV. Yahoo! News Kevin Sites Get coverage of world crises. Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14628|14541|2007-10-03 15:04:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: preventing flames|Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up. With the CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power, you can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke. There is still a market for alloy boats, as alloy tends to holds its price better and is becoming increasingly popular. I'm currently working on the GD56: LOA 56.3 ft LWL 54.1 ft Beam 13.5 ft Disp 35,175 lbs Ballast 10,000 lbs (est) AVS 138 degrees RM/deg 3,416 ft/lbs Basically she looks similar to the G55, slimmer, less stern, more water line, and only 3/4 the weight. I've floated her on the computer and everything looks sweet so far. Twin rudders and a shoal draft option are planned, to get the minimum draft down under 5 feet. GJ and Ron are back on the G55 after a break for GJ to build a house. I finished moving everything back from Asia last fall and the Bones sold shortly after. I'm racing on a couple of local boats, with a third in the wings if I can make the time time. Nothing would suit me better than to get back to discussing boats. As they say, it takes two to Tango. Brent has lots of good ideas about how to reduce costs when building. There are subjects on which we might disagree in the details. For example: 1. From my experience it is difficult for first time builders to build something of equal quality for less than they could have bought it. Most of them would be better off to keep working at a job that they are skilled in, and use the money from this to buy a good used boat. When you build, start with dinghy's first to gain experience and work up to larger boats. 2. Building a boat and going cruising, without a plan to make the money required to pay for the materials to build the boat and support yourself while building and cruising, is a plan that is very likely to fail due to lack of resources. Get this plan in place first, get the resources in place, before you start building. 3. Novice sailors often put too much emphasis on the design of the boat, wrongly believing it can make up for their lack of experience. The style of boat you sail, the material it is made of, these are only a small part of safety offshore. All boats are a compromise. The most important safety factor offshore is experience and seamanship. Sail the boat to suit its design. 4. Different sailors have different requirements. Lowest cost construction tends to favor single hander's and all male crews that are willing to live in Spartan conditions. These same conditions can lead to an early end to cruising for couples or families, because it increases the stress of living in a confined space. It is not the price, it is the value you receive, that makes something cheap or expensive. There is nothing wrong with having ideas that differ. Everyone has different experiences and different points of view. Problems start when people try and make things personal, trying to argue against the ideas, by running down the person presenting them. As Alex pointed out, someone says "you" and then puts something negative with it, there will be problems. One topic not mentioned is the third-man-in rule. Until a third person steps in and takes sides, fights usually end quickly as people run out of gas and start to look silly. A fight between equals, what is the point in someone else stepping in, unless they are the referee? As if Brent and I need help to fight our own battles. The day we can't do that we don't belong offshore. The third person in simply makes it a brawl. It becomes 2 against 1, which is perceived as unfair. Things get out of hand, the rules break down, the referee loses control, and a brawl is inevitable. Even hockey, which in many ways promotes fighting, has a rule against the third-main-in specifically to prevent brawls. A fight starts, things get personal, give Alex a break and keep out of it. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames Give it a miss Greg. Lets get back to boats . How many do you have on the go? Hows Greg James boat comming? Metal work done yet? Have you sold the bones? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Gerd, > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for you. I > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please point it > out, because I can't find it. > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't addressed > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is well > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's comment > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > boat. > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor you are, > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then there is > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few months > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and comment at > that time? > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the leader, do > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite your hand > off. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > years. > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > special area of knowledge. > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > bite! ;-) > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > tongue > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14629|14541|2007-10-03 15:43:19|brentswain38|Re: preventing flames|For the first 20 years most of my boats were built with me , Evan , or Ken helping people build boats in their own backyards. We provided the experience, the owner provided the tools, materials, building site , meals and transportation. It is a good system, allowing people to afford boats that they couldn't, if they had to pay the price of a builder maintaining a shop year round ,whether there was a boat being built or not, plus depreciation on tools, bureaucracy, etc. Since the book and DVD came out , more people have been building their own, and doing excellent work , often far better work than a commercial builder, who has to nickle and dime the materials and time to remain profitable. Origami is far more forgiving of inexperience than any other method of building. Many builders have rejected the bullshit puritan theory that a boat has to be finished to the last bolt before you can launch it and get some enjoyment out of her. Once the painting is done and the engine and , or , rig and foam is in you will make far more progress out ina rremote anchorage with a generator and a few materials. Lack of distractions is the main reason, and it is far more enjoyable. True, there are a lot of cheap fibreglas boats for sale , if that is what you want, and you don't mind adding 50% or more to the asking price by the time you have paid the bank interest on a loan. If you prefer the safety and peace of mind of a well built metal boat, they are far more scarce. Mine change hands very rarely.Good ones are also extremely expensive as are many not so good ones. Nothing gives one the peace of mind on a stormy night at sea as having seen every detail of how a boat is put together , by having done it oneself. Building your own is a case of interest free pay as you go plan. You can do 33% of the metal work( detail) before needing a site to build, and progress as the funds and material arrive, putting things on hold when they don't . The notion that you should have all the financial needs arranged before you start, is an elitist ,bullshit theory. If I had done that I'd never have owned a boat to this day as would many of my clients, who are now cruising. M book covers this issue in detail. Buy a copy and read it. I have found plenty of interest in building boats lately , for this reason. Many have started recently. Greg , maybe its the crowd you cater to ,who share your philosophy, that explains why things are slow for you lately. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up. With the > CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power, you > can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke. > There is still a market for alloy boats, as alloy tends to holds its price > better and is becoming increasingly popular. > > I'm currently working on the GD56: > > LOA 56.3 ft > LWL 54.1 ft > Beam 13.5 ft > Disp 35,175 lbs > Ballast 10,000 lbs (est) > AVS 138 degrees > RM/deg 3,416 ft/lbs > > Basically she looks similar to the G55, slimmer, less stern, more water > line, and only 3/4 the weight. I've floated her on the computer and > everything looks sweet so far. Twin rudders and a shoal draft option are > planned, to get the minimum draft down under 5 feet. > > GJ and Ron are back on the G55 after a break for GJ to build a house. I > finished moving everything back from Asia last fall and the Bones sold > shortly after. I'm racing on a couple of local boats, with a third in the > wings if I can make the time time. > > Nothing would suit me better than to get back to discussing boats. As they > say, it takes two to Tango. Brent has lots of good ideas about how to > reduce costs when building. There are subjects on which we might disagree > in the details. For example: > > 1. From my experience it is difficult for first time builders to build > something of equal quality for less than they could have bought it. Most of > them would be better off to keep working at a job that they are skilled in, > and use the money from this to buy a good used boat. When you build, start > with dinghy's first to gain experience and work up to larger boats. > > 2. Building a boat and going cruising, without a plan to make the money > required to pay for the materials to build the boat and support yourself > while building and cruising, is a plan that is very likely to fail due to > lack of resources. Get this plan in place first, get the resources in > place, before you start building. > > 3. Novice sailors often put too much emphasis on the design of the boat, > wrongly believing it can make up for their lack of experience. The style of > boat you sail, the material it is made of, these are only a small part of > safety offshore. All boats are a compromise. The most important safety > factor offshore is experience and seamanship. Sail the boat to suit its > design. > > 4. Different sailors have different requirements. Lowest cost construction > tends to favor single hander's and all male crews that are willing to live > in Spartan conditions. These same conditions can lead to an early end to > cruising for couples or families, because it increases the stress of living > in a confined space. It is not the price, it is the value you receive, that > makes something cheap or expensive. > > There is nothing wrong with having ideas that differ. Everyone has > different experiences and different points of view. Problems start when > people try and make things personal, trying to argue against the ideas, by > running down the person presenting them. As Alex pointed out, someone says > "you" and then puts something negative with it, there will be problems. > > One topic not mentioned is the third-man-in rule. Until a third person > steps in and takes sides, fights usually end quickly as people run out of > gas and start to look silly. A fight between equals, what is the point in > someone else stepping in, unless they are the referee? As if Brent and I > need help to fight our own battles. The day we can't do that we don't > belong offshore. > > The third person in simply makes it a brawl. It becomes 2 against 1, which > is perceived as unfair. Things get out of hand, the rules break down, the > referee loses control, and a brawl is inevitable. Even hockey, which in > many ways promotes fighting, has a rule against the third-main-in > specifically to prevent brawls. A fight starts, things get personal, give > Alex a break and keep out of it. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:25 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Give it a miss Greg. Lets get back to boats . How many do you have on > the go? Hows Greg James boat comming? Metal work done yet? Have you > sold the bones? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for > you. I > > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please > point it > > out, because I can't find it. > > > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't > addressed > > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is > well > > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's > comment > > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > > boat. > > > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor > you are, > > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then > there is > > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few > months > > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and > comment at > > that time? > > > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the > leader, do > > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite > your hand > > off. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > > years. > > > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > > special area of knowledge. > > > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > > bite! ;-) > > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > project.com > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > > tongue > > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14630|14548|2007-10-03 15:54:45|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|It used to be 12 months Visa. Now the max they give you is three months , not enough to get thru the hurricane season. You have to fly out of the country, either New Guinea or New Zealand to get it renewed. While Canada is nowhere near as bureaucratic as the US, its nowhere near as laid back as it should be either.I think the politics of envy play a huge roll amoung bureaucrats. Their philosophy seems to be "If it aint fair , then we should seek out the most miserable person on the planet and drag everyone down to that level. That would only be fair." That great CBC philosopher Arthur Black summed it up well when he said that envy is an admission that you've made a total screwup of your life. When people who are happy with their own lives see someone with a good thing going they say " Good on ya. More power to you.." It's only those who are unhappy with their own lives ,and deep down know they have made a total screwup of things, who get jealous of the success of others. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > They send divers down and if you bottom looks like it hasn't been > > painted in two years , you are ordered to spend $700 on haulout and > > are allowed to use only their own paint. Visas are only for three > > months , then get very expensive, and you are required to fly to > > another country to get it renewed. If you can't afford that, your are > > forced out to sea in hurricane season , even if there is a hurricane > > in the area , in violation of all international law. You are required > > to inform them of your arrival in writing 48 hours in advance. Hard to > > do at sea or in a third world country. You take your chances of your > > message having ever got there.If you try this via Beluga Diving in > > Tonga , where they take your money and don't bother to send the > > message, you are in for a huge fine. > > I suspect that these regs (or the enforcement of them) depend on where > you enter Australia. Down here, things are pretty laid back. WRT visas > and the like, yeah, I can't say I'm real surprised. I also can't see > it changing as the bureaucrats neither understand nor like people who > can & do come and go as they please. I thought getting up to 12 months > was relatively simple for people from 1st World countries, but you > *had* to re-export the boat within 12 months or it was deemed to have > been imported and duty/GST was payable. Could be wrong, tho. > > Concerning the notification in advance thing, I'm pretty sure it's a > MINIMUM of 48 hours, with a planned ETA. If so I can't see the big > deal, given the availability of internet cafes etc. I know you can do > it by email, so you send them an email before you leave Vanuatu or > whatever. Given it's a PITA, it's not an impossible one. Nobody said > you have to have a working radio, or even a radio at all, AFAIK. > > > Auusi has almost ruled itself off limits for low income cruisers. > > We Canadians are likewise oblivious to the abuse bureaucrats subject > > our visitors to.I heard of a Swede who wanted to leave his boat here > > and fly back to Sweden for a two week visitwith is family. He was told > > that was not allowed.Perhaps it's time we asked visitors how they were > > treated and lobby for them in political debates.What goes around comes > > around. This type of action worldwide will benefit all us cruisers . > > We who live here can't be kicked out for asking questions, on behalf > > of anonymous foreign cruisers. > > Brent > > Good idea. I'm planning on coming over to Vancouver in 2009 and want > to stay a while. If it's more hassle than it was living in the USA, > which I did some years ago, I may have to reconsider. > > PDW > | 14631|14541|2007-10-03 17:09:28|seeratlas|Re: preventing flames|At some point or another, I think we'll all discover that Life IS a contest, a 'fight' if you will. I had the good/mis 'fortune' to attend Harvard Law School on the GI bill. What I found there was amazing. Take 300 or so of the brightest minds in the country, a set of professors with up to 50 years experience in both the subject, and the manner of teaching by 'putting one on the spot' and firing question after question, most of which didn't actually have 'correct' answers btw, just a lot of possibles..and what did you get? Well, you got a professor who would single out someone and attempt to corner that student into a theoretical, logical position; then turn the class loose on him/her to attack that same position. Hopefully you can imagine the consequences. We even had one guy who couldn't take it and dove head first off the top of the parking structure as his way of 'avoiding conflict'. He had no business being there. Others 'hid out', had friends tape the classes for them etc. etc. Fortunately (unfortunately?) I'd just come back from the latest in a series of overseas 'adventures' and found the verbal attacks pretty much trivial by comparison, and made no secret of it. This had two effects, some found my demeanor calm and reassuring, and began to piggy back on various positions I might take; others turned off their 'egos' (and sometimes 'fears') and began participating in thoughtful exchanges which contributed mightily to the educational experience of the group: and lastly, there were that omnipresent few (including a professor or two :) who saw their inability to intimidate or otherwise 'hurt' me psychologically, extremely frustrating, and it became their life mission to try and beat me up in an intellectual argument:) Few things on earth irritate these kinds of humans more than feeling powerless to exercise any control over the life and thoughts of another. I'm sure you've all met the type. What impressed me was the feeling that the source of their insecurity was to be found not in others, but deep within themselves....scary but true in my experience. So, what is it I'm getting at? 1. Rational discussion requires no emotion. If someone is afraid of their argument being criticized, there are only two options...a. don't make it, b. don't read the responses. :) 2. This 'Group' is a 'discussion' group...not a sporting contest between two individuals. If you post a position here, by its very nature, all members of the group have the opportunity to support or dispute it as they see fit. In fact, the opportunity to have an opinion or proposal debated by individuals with substantial knowledge and experience on the subject is one of the main attractions of this group! Now, if this is unacceptable, someone is in the wrong place. 3. Lastly, imho, the manner in which one states a position will likely have a great deal of influence on the manner in which it is responded too. As Tom Clancy once observed, (check me on this one Ben hehehe) "If your intention is to kick the tiger in the ass, "You'd best have a plan for dealing with his teeth:) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up. With the > CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power, you > can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke. > There is still a market for alloy boats, as alloy tends to holds its price > better and is becoming increasingly popular. > > I'm currently working on the GD56: > > LOA 56.3 ft > LWL 54.1 ft > Beam 13.5 ft > Disp 35,175 lbs > Ballast 10,000 lbs (est) > AVS 138 degrees > RM/deg 3,416 ft/lbs > > Basically she looks similar to the G55, slimmer, less stern, more water > line, and only 3/4 the weight. I've floated her on the computer and > everything looks sweet so far. Twin rudders and a shoal draft option are > planned, to get the minimum draft down under 5 feet. > > GJ and Ron are back on the G55 after a break for GJ to build a house. I > finished moving everything back from Asia last fall and the Bones sold > shortly after. I'm racing on a couple of local boats, with a third in the > wings if I can make the time time. > > Nothing would suit me better than to get back to discussing boats. As they > say, it takes two to Tango. Brent has lots of good ideas about how to > reduce costs when building. There are subjects on which we might disagree > in the details. For example: > > 1. From my experience it is difficult for first time builders to build > something of equal quality for less than they could have bought it. Most of > them would be better off to keep working at a job that they are skilled in, > and use the money from this to buy a good used boat. When you build, start > with dinghy's first to gain experience and work up to larger boats. > > 2. Building a boat and going cruising, without a plan to make the money > required to pay for the materials to build the boat and support yourself > while building and cruising, is a plan that is very likely to fail due to > lack of resources. Get this plan in place first, get the resources in > place, before you start building. > > 3. Novice sailors often put too much emphasis on the design of the boat, > wrongly believing it can make up for their lack of experience. The style of > boat you sail, the material it is made of, these are only a small part of > safety offshore. All boats are a compromise. The most important safety > factor offshore is experience and seamanship. Sail the boat to suit its > design. > > 4. Different sailors have different requirements. Lowest cost construction > tends to favor single hander's and all male crews that are willing to live > in Spartan conditions. These same conditions can lead to an early end to > cruising for couples or families, because it increases the stress of living > in a confined space. It is not the price, it is the value you receive, that > makes something cheap or expensive. > > There is nothing wrong with having ideas that differ. Everyone has > different experiences and different points of view. Problems start when > people try and make things personal, trying to argue against the ideas, by > running down the person presenting them. As Alex pointed out, someone says > "you" and then puts something negative with it, there will be problems. > > One topic not mentioned is the third-man-in rule. Until a third person > steps in and takes sides, fights usually end quickly as people run out of > gas and start to look silly. A fight between equals, what is the point in > someone else stepping in, unless they are the referee? As if Brent and I > need help to fight our own battles. The day we can't do that we don't > belong offshore. > > The third person in simply makes it a brawl. It becomes 2 against 1, which > is perceived as unfair. Things get out of hand, the rules break down, the > referee loses control, and a brawl is inevitable. Even hockey, which in > many ways promotes fighting, has a rule against the third-main-in > specifically to prevent brawls. A fight starts, things get personal, give > Alex a break and keep out of it. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:25 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Give it a miss Greg. Lets get back to boats . How many do you have on > the go? Hows Greg James boat comming? Metal work done yet? Have you > sold the bones? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for > you. I > > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please > point it > > out, because I can't find it. > > > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't > addressed > > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is > well > > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's > comment > > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > > boat. > > > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor > you are, > > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then > there is > > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few > months > > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and > comment at > > that time? > > > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the > leader, do > > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite > your hand > > off. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > > years. > > > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > > special area of knowledge. > > > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > > bite! ;-) > > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > project.com > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > > tongue > > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14632|14548|2007-10-03 17:21:05|seeratlas|Re: Surf's UP!!|darn, if i'd have seen this one first would've saved me a lot of writing :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > While Canada is nowhere near as bureaucratic as the US, its nowhere > near as laid back as it should be either.I think the politics of envy > play a huge roll amoung bureaucrats. Their philosophy seems to be "If > it aint fair , then we should seek out the most miserable person on > the planet and drag everyone down to that level. That would only be fair." > That great CBC philosopher Arthur Black summed it up well when he > said that envy is an admission that you've made a total screwup of > your life. When people who are happy with their own lives see someone > with a good thing going they say " Good on ya. More power to you.." > It's only those who are unhappy with their own lives ,and deep down > know they have made a total screwup of things, who get jealous of the > success of others. > Brent > | 14633|14548|2007-10-03 21:59:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Surf's UP!!|I have found that if you look behind most of the rules and bureaucracy someone is making a lot of money. The offshore category 1 rules in NZ and the haulout rules in Australia both have the chandlers and boat yards raking it in....it's in their interest to make as much regulations as they can. It is short term thinking that in the long term will stifle boating and make it only for rich men. Paul --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > They send divers down and if you bottom looks like it hasn't been > painted in two years , you are ordered to spend $700 on haulout and > are allowed to use only their own paint. Visas are only for three > months , then get very expensive, and you are required to fly to > another country to get it renewed. If you can't afford that, your are > forced out to sea in hurricane season , even if there is a hurricane > in the area , in violation of all international law. You are required > to inform them of your arrival in writing 48 hours in advance. Hard to > do at sea or in a third world country. You take your chances of your > message having ever got there.If you try this via Beluga Diving in > Tonga , where they take your money and don't bother to send the > message, you are in for a huge fine. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14634|14634|2007-10-04 01:11:59|silascrosby|Series Drogue|Anybody here actually used a series drogue in bad weather ? Steve| 14635|14541|2007-10-04 04:34:46|sae140|Re: preventing flames|Greg - so, yet another attempt at stirring-up the pot ... 1) "Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up." Well, that's not my experience - but it's an opinion (although being presented as a fact). 2) "With the CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power," Another personal opinion presented as a fact. 3) "... you can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke." Now posting THAT on a boat-building forum is an inflammatory statement. 4) " There is still a market for alloy boats, as alloy tends to holds its price better and is becoming increasingly popular." Ah - so 1,2 and 3 aren't actually true then ? Or is it that they are true for the rest of the world but do not apply to you ? Methinks these are the words of a snake-oil salesman. "Nothing would suit me better than to get back to discussing boats." Judging by the above you don't really want to discuss boats - you want to start a ruck based on controversy - yet again. Taking a charitable view - it may be that you don't even know that you're doing it (?). But that would be hard to believe ... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up. With the > CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power, you > can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke. > There is still a market for alloy boats, as alloy tends to holds its price > better and is becoming increasingly popular. > > I'm currently working on the GD56: > > LOA 56.3 ft > LWL 54.1 ft > Beam 13.5 ft > Disp 35,175 lbs > Ballast 10,000 lbs (est) > AVS 138 degrees > RM/deg 3,416 ft/lbs > > Basically she looks similar to the G55, slimmer, less stern, more water > line, and only 3/4 the weight. I've floated her on the computer and > everything looks sweet so far. Twin rudders and a shoal draft option are > planned, to get the minimum draft down under 5 feet. > > GJ and Ron are back on the G55 after a break for GJ to build a house. I > finished moving everything back from Asia last fall and the Bones sold > shortly after. I'm racing on a couple of local boats, with a third in the > wings if I can make the time time. > > Nothing would suit me better than to get back to discussing boats. As they > say, it takes two to Tango. Brent has lots of good ideas about how to > reduce costs when building. There are subjects on which we might disagree > in the details. For example: > > 1. From my experience it is difficult for first time builders to build > something of equal quality for less than they could have bought it. Most of > them would be better off to keep working at a job that they are skilled in, > and use the money from this to buy a good used boat. When you build, start > with dinghy's first to gain experience and work up to larger boats. > > 2. Building a boat and going cruising, without a plan to make the money > required to pay for the materials to build the boat and support yourself > while building and cruising, is a plan that is very likely to fail due to > lack of resources. Get this plan in place first, get the resources in > place, before you start building. > > 3. Novice sailors often put too much emphasis on the design of the boat, > wrongly believing it can make up for their lack of experience. The style of > boat you sail, the material it is made of, these are only a small part of > safety offshore. All boats are a compromise. The most important safety > factor offshore is experience and seamanship. Sail the boat to suit its > design. > > 4. Different sailors have different requirements. Lowest cost construction > tends to favor single hander's and all male crews that are willing to live > in Spartan conditions. These same conditions can lead to an early end to > cruising for couples or families, because it increases the stress of living > in a confined space. It is not the price, it is the value you receive, that > makes something cheap or expensive. > > There is nothing wrong with having ideas that differ. Everyone has > different experiences and different points of view. Problems start when > people try and make things personal, trying to argue against the ideas, by > running down the person presenting them. As Alex pointed out, someone says > "you" and then puts something negative with it, there will be problems. > > One topic not mentioned is the third-man-in rule. Until a third person > steps in and takes sides, fights usually end quickly as people run out of > gas and start to look silly. A fight between equals, what is the point in > someone else stepping in, unless they are the referee? As if Brent and I > need help to fight our own battles. The day we can't do that we don't > belong offshore. > > The third person in simply makes it a brawl. It becomes 2 against 1, which > is perceived as unfair. Things get out of hand, the rules break down, the > referee loses control, and a brawl is inevitable. Even hockey, which in > many ways promotes fighting, has a rule against the third-main-in > specifically to prevent brawls. A fight starts, things get personal, give > Alex a break and keep out of it. > > Greg > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:25 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > Give it a miss Greg. Lets get back to boats . How many do you have on > the go? Hows Greg James boat comming? Metal work done yet? Have you > sold the bones? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > The thread was started by Seer under the heading "Greg, question for > you. I > > answered his question. If there was bait in my response, please > point it > > out, because I can't find it. > > > > Brent came back with a false statement. Why? The question wasn't > addressed > > to him. Mungo II has been discussed previously in the group. It is > well > > known I designed the hull. Likely Brent took exception to Seer's > comment > > "looks nifty", and wanted it to appear that I had nothing to do with the > > boat. > > > > False statements directed at people personally cause disputes, plain and > > simple. Nobody pays attention if you lie about how great a sailor > you are, > > or how fast your boats is - they expect everyone to exaggerate about > > themselves. However, if you tell a lie about someone else, then > there is > > going to be trouble. Wasn't Brent called out to fight someone a few > months > > back over his comments? Did anyone have the moxy to stand up and > comment at > > that time? > > > > The world is divided into sheep and wolves. The sheep follow the > leader, do > > as they are told, and get shorn regularly. They don't last offshore. > > Wolves are different. Try and take what is theirs, they will bite > your hand > > off. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 4:15 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: preventing flames > > > > > > > > Thanks Seer, that's the most sensible posting on this subject in > > years. > > > > Banning should really be limited to those real usenet trolls that > > jump from group to group to raise flame wars when actually they have > > nothing to do with the groups subject in the first place. > > > > The people we have involved here in occasional flaming and bickering > > in sometimes endless and exchanges are not like that, they are also > > sailing or building or designing and - when not involved in these > > discussions - participating actively and contributing each on their > > special area of knowledge. > > > > So if sometimes the tone gets a bit hot - so what... > > If Greg holds out a carefully and correctly worded bait... don't > > bite! ;-) > > If Brent delivers a gruffy and totally politically incorrect personal > > response... don't ban him! ;-) > > > > We have all been here for years, and asking Alex to deal with adults > > as if they were childrenis worse than any flame war could ever be. > > > > (BTW, talking about the only mini-flame I ever was (or got) involved > > in: whatever happened to "Old Ben" and his women and their plans for > > serial BS 26 production lines in Africa?) > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > project.com > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I would caution against over reacting Alex. Personally I'm of the > > > "Brent School of anti-political correctness", which observes that " > > > It's hard to have a frank and meaningful discussion with one's > > tongue > > > stuck securely in one's cheek". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14636|14636|2007-10-04 11:40:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Flame Prevention|Greg, Some time ago you mentioned "many valuable contributors to this list have been lost due to the personal attacks" I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the very few that hold that opinion. Any chance of losing you? Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14637|14636|2007-10-04 11:50:13|Aaron Williams|Re: Flame Prevention|People I am in the middle of an ORGAMI BOAT PROJECT and it is hard to find good construction ideas with all of crap slinging going on here. Aaron SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: Greg, Some time ago you mentioned "many valuable contributors to this list have been lost due to the personal attacks" I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the very few that hold that opinion. Any chance of losing you? Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14638|14541|2007-10-04 12:46:23|Michael Casling|Re: preventing flames|There would be some agreement from me if that first statement was made around 1982. However the demand for sport type sail boats seems to be on the rise. The also seems to be demand for expensive sail boats among the aging population. Agreed there are good boats cheaper in the US than other places, but I do not think that would affect the building decision too much. An example of an older cheap boat might be the Rival 34, but it would not suit the needs of someone who wanted a steel boat. Your wolf and sheep story has been omitted and ignored. I am a part time sheep farmer. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Demand for boats, especially sailboats has pretty much dried up. With the > CDN$ above par, and the aging population moving away from sail to power, you > can pick up deals on used sailboats in the US that make building a joke. > > Greg | 14639|14493|2007-10-04 13:12:45|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat for $26,500. Quite possibly some people would say that the hull is expensive and the boat cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 as a bargain. I expect over the years, a house cost me considerably less than what most people spend to build an origami boat. I've probably taken in something like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase price of less than $200k including interest. Market value - you can't buy a house in Vancouver these days for much less than $700k. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you A house , family etc is less expensive than simply owning and living aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in your designing? Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It was a beautiful night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > House women family all cost money , too expensive for my tastes.Costs > too much cruisin time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo II is simply > shooting their > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. Typical BS. > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in Hawaii sailing, > using the > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l programmed a notebook > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron the drawings and > table of > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this to Autocad and added the > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the hull using the offsets I > > provided. > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to my name, it is about > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go sailing for years > and come > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of the techniques > promoted on > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone shoots their mouth off > without > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their advice. One only needs > look at > > the person giving advice to see where their advice leads. > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? Beautiful evening. > Probably one > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out on the water, > dinner and > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is my interest in > sailing. > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all to have a boat? No > thanks. > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that have nothing to do with > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My advice is for > people that > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a way to achieve this. > Boat > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, when you get the > economics > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming exercise that delays > sailing, and > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of life. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a huge ,full length keel. > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded and detailed it . > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > When you have so few boats to your name, you have to fill up your > > site with something. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did you design or help build > > it? > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a professional artist and > likely > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic lines. The boat is > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys with two much better > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing in front of a steel > boat > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys is you? > > > > second, what was the idea for putting the stainless wing looking bow > > > > protector on , looks nifty > > > > last question, is that boat the "bones' ? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14640|14470|2007-10-04 13:12:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|The plastic tubing on the sheet blocks works well. If it is snug around the shackles and extra long, it stops most of the rattle, except when things are really flogging. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! You usually adjust it only once for a reef, then it doesn't move on the sheet. Never had a chafe problem there, but I'm considering going for standard becket blocks held up to the top lifeline by shockcord for sheet leads,to eliminate chafe on the fixed block on the rail. Alignment will be better and the shock cord shold stop any banging in a calm. I may wrap the shackles on the bottom in plastic tubing and pump them full of sikaflex to keep them calm while allowing alignment. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down rope, it > moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every time the > headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is > decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. > > Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As boat > size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the chafe. 3 > strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show wear, as > compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets are not to > everyone's taste. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific > crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends > for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is > always > > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. > Maybe > > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, while you > > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a sheet has > > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the > potential for > > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, probably > > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around > a spare > > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a > safety. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > > was rolled out again.Worked well > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > > wonders to > > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a line > > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put a kink > > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release Date: > > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14641|14641|2007-10-04 13:13:38|drddias|BOATBUILDING|Nothing to comment on later posts except: I recieve in my email dozens of posts, that I read because there may be some utile information inside regarding boat building that I don't want to miss. Usualy I do it in weekends, because during the week I am BOATBUILDING, and I arrive late at my ITEM house very tired, I have dinner with my ITEM spouse, I work in my computer, and I go to sleep. So I spend to much weekend time reading (sorry)nonsense posts. I'm an adult, I care for friedom and human rights, I have my conceptions on life totally resolved, I sugest that you might "filter" the posts, let say, classifying them as "boatbuilding" and "others", thank you eduardo p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and I was particulary intersted in discussing.| 14642|14493|2007-10-04 15:29:32|Michael Casling|Re: Greg, question for you|But that is a financial discussion. And it is what you say worked for you. Why can't other folks do what they want with their money in the manner they see fit. That is what they are gonna do anyway. Why are you so concerned that they do it your way. The you word can not be ignored in these discussions. The communication book cautions about using the you word, but it also suggests to ask for feedback. Which is usually what I am trying to do. But in this case I do not want to here anymore financial advice on the subject. It is what I do in my day job, however I have no desire to discuss it here. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > I expect over the years, a house cost me considerably less than what most > people spend to build an origami boat. I've probably taken in something > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase price of less than $200k > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a house in Vancouver these > days for much less than $700k. > > Greg | 14643|14636|2007-10-04 15:29:35|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Flame Prevention|Aaron, Will you be working on the boat this sunday or monday? Paul > People > I am in the middle of an ORGAMI BOAT PROJECT and it is hard to find good > construction ideas with all of crap slinging going on here. > > Aaron > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Greg, > > Some time ago you mentioned > > "many valuable contributors to this list have been > lost due to the personal attacks" > > I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a > "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the > very few that hold that opinion. > > Any chance of losing you? > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with > the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and > more! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14644|14644|2007-10-04 15:37:34|Alex|bare hull|I'm pondering that if someone did want to take on my bare hull, and would be amenable to me finishing my film on it, then I'd be amenable to that. I now have the hull beside a welding shop where I also rent a newly finished apartment that should easily transfer with it, and the landlord includes the boat storage in the rent. Pretty sweet. It's freakishly ideal for someone wanting to complete a boat on Vancouver Island. I can't keep both boats, I realize, so basically whichever one goes first I'll carry on with the remainder! Two-foot-itis is the bane of any man's life! Alex| 14645|14636|2007-10-04 16:06:56|Aaron Williams|Re: Flame Prevention|Paul I hope to be working on it for the 6 days. paulcotter@... wrote: Aaron, Will you be working on the boat this sunday or monday? Paul > People > I am in the middle of an ORGAMI BOAT PROJECT and it is hard to find good > construction ideas with all of crap slinging going on here. > > Aaron > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Greg, > > Some time ago you mentioned > > "many valuable contributors to this list have been > lost due to the personal attacks" > > I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a > "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the > very few that hold that opinion. > > Any chance of losing you? > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with > the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and > more! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14646|14641|2007-10-04 16:58:43|seeratlas|Re: BOATBUILDING|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math involved in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where you place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going to drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and take actual surfaces from an existing hull. Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he wants to use. Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building metal boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who want to do it themselves. seer > eduardo > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > | 14647|14641|2007-10-04 17:18:28|Wesley Cox|Re: BOATBUILDING|I concur with the notion of building models. It's a simple process. I could get through the math, but it would take longer than developing an appropriate model, in my opinion. I start with regular construction paper at 1/24 - 1/48 scale, which seems to fold and fair nicely. When I have something I like, I move up to 0.015" aluminum roll flashing at 1/12 scale, which also folds quite fair. I have some 0.032" 5052 aluminum for 1/3 -1/6 scale, but haven't progressed to that, yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math involved in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where you place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going to drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and take actual surfaces from an existing hull. Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he wants to use. Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building metal boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who want to do it themselves. seer > eduardo > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14648|14636|2007-10-04 17:50:02|brentswain38|Re: Flame Prevention|Post any questions here and well do what we can to answer them . They should get top priority. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > Aaron, > > Will you be working on the boat this sunday or monday? > > Paul > > > > People > > I am in the middle of an ORGAMI BOAT PROJECT and it is hard to find good > > construction ideas with all of crap slinging going on here. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Greg, > > > > Some time ago you mentioned > > > > "many valuable contributors to this list have been > > lost due to the personal attacks" > > > > I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a > > "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the > > very few that hold that opinion. > > > > Any chance of losing you? > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with > > the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and > > more! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14649|14641|2007-10-04 20:28:31|edward_stoneuk|Re: BOATBUILDING|> p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > I was particulary intersted in discussing. Hi Eduardo, I remember reading your mail on foldable sufaces but cannot find it now. Greg has experience in using computers to design origami boats and I guess he may well have contacted you. On my part I have no experience other than I have used Hullform software www.hullform.com which was helpful in understanding many aspects of hull construction. From memory quite a small dimensional change could cause kinks in the hull surface as shown on the computer. Regards, Ted| 14650|14641|2007-10-04 20:28:32|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|Th easiest way to find what surfaces are foldable is to make models . Many people have asked me for details ont he dinghy pattern .I just tellthem to copy the pattern in the book ,make a model of it, then make modified versions out of cardboard until you have what you like. If I were to make another folded dinghy, I'd go wider on the transom and the bottom. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Nothing to comment on later posts > except: > I recieve in my email dozens of posts, that I read because there may > be some utile information inside regarding boat building that I don't > want to miss. > Usualy I do it in weekends, because during the week I am BOATBUILDING, > and I arrive late at my ITEM house very tired, I have dinner with my > ITEM spouse, I work in my computer, and I go to sleep. > So I spend to much weekend time reading (sorry)nonsense posts. > I'm an adult, I care for friedom and human rights, I have my > conceptions on life totally resolved, > I sugest that you might "filter" the posts, let say, classifying them > as "boatbuilding" and "others", > thank you > eduardo > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > | 14651|14493|2007-10-04 20:28:56|John Langelo|Re: Greg, question for you|I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours for eh? John --- ge@... wrote: > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > for $26,500. Quite > possibly some people would say that the hull is > expensive and the boat > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > as a bargain. > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > considerably less than what most > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > probably taken in something > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > price of less than $200k > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > house in Vancouver these > days for much less than $700k. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > owning and living > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > your designing? > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > was a beautiful > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > for my tastes.Costs > > too much cruisin time. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > II is simply > > shooting their > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > Typical BS. > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > Hawaii sailing, > > using the > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > programmed a notebook > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > the drawings and > > table of > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > to Autocad and > added the > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > hull using the offsets I > > > provided. > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > my name, it is about > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > sailing for years > > and come > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > the techniques > > promoted on > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > shoots their mouth off > > without > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > advice. One only needs > > look at > > > the person giving advice to see where their > advice leads. > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > Beautiful evening. > > Probably one > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > on the water, > > dinner and > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > my interest in > > sailing. > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > to have a boat? No > > thanks. > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > have nothing to do with > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > advice is for > > people that > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > way to achieve this. > > Boat > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > when you get the > > economics > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > exercise that delays > > sailing, and > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > life. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > you > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > huge ,full length keel. > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > and detailed it . > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > have to fill up your > > > site with something. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > you design or help build > > > it? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > professional artist and > > likely > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > lines. The boat is > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > with two much better > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > in front of a steel > > boat > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > is === message truncated === Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14652|14641|2007-10-04 20:29:07|Paul Wilson|Re: BOATBUILDING|I said it before but maybe I should say it again. I have used Hulls from Carlson design as well as Freeship and Delftship programs for origami boat design. Hulls is freeware, very easy to use and a great place to start. Freeship is freeware as well. It is bit more complicated to learn but much more powerful. Freeship has a yahoo user group. Delftship is the new paid version of Freeship. They all do plate developments extremely well. I am using Rhinoceros now for interior design but for the actual hull design one of the above programs should do everything you want. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 4:48:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math involved in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where you place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going to drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and take actual surfaces from an existing hull. Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he wants to use. Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building metal boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who want to do it themselves. seer > eduardo > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14653|14636|2007-10-04 20:29:41|Aaron Williams|Re: Flame Prevention|Thanks brentswain38 wrote: Post any questions here and well do what we can to answer them . They should get top priority. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > Aaron, > > Will you be working on the boat this sunday or monday? > > Paul > > > > People > > I am in the middle of an ORGAMI BOAT PROJECT and it is hard to find good > > construction ideas with all of crap slinging going on here. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Greg, > > > > Some time ago you mentioned > > > > "many valuable contributors to this list have been > > lost due to the personal attacks" > > > > I have no doubt that you must consider yourself a > > "valuable contributor" and are no doubt one of the > > very few that hold that opinion. > > > > Any chance of losing you? > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with > > the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and > > more! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14654|14493|2007-10-04 21:09:38|kingsknight4life|Re: Greg, question for you|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat for $26,500. Quite possibly some people would say that the hull is expensive and the boat cheap. True, but when was the last time you could by a "Swain 36" for that price? That is the ONLY one I've seen in that price range in the last 6-8 YEARS. Most are 3 to 4 times that price. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 as a bargain. I expect over the years, a house cost me considerably less than what most people spend to build an origami boat. I've probably taken in something like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase price of less than $200k including interest. Hard to believe but certainly possible. You must have gotten that house REALLY cheap or bought it in the 40's? Market value - you can't buy a house in Vancouver these > days for much less than $700k. > > Greg > > Great advice. I wish I could give everyone advice on how and buy a property in Canadas hottest property market FORTY years after the fact. Again you offer nothing of value just stirring the pot as others have already said. Rowland > _____ > | 14655|14641|2007-10-04 21:09:53|kingsknight4life|Re: BOATBUILDING|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Th easiest way to find what surfaces are foldable is to make models . > Many people have asked me for details ont he dinghy pattern .I just > tellthem to copy the pattern in the book ,make a model of it, then > make modified versions out of cardboard until you have what you like. > If I were to make another folded dinghy, I'd go wider on the transom > and the bottom. > Brent > Brent, would u still go aluminum? Can you weld aluminum with a mig welder, if I was to make a dinghy this way? Rowland| 14656|14656|2007-10-04 21:09:58|kingsknight4life|Prairie Maiden|Hi Martin Just wondering how the boat is coming along? I was out in your neck of the woods again today and it made me wonder how he project was coming? Last time I saw her was before Bev and I moved out to the coast and started on our own boat. For now we're back in the prairies building up the cruising kitty. I'd love to come and see how she's doing. Rowland| 14657|14548|2007-10-04 21:11:03|peter_d_wiley|Re: Surf's UP!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have found that if you look behind most of the rules and bureaucracy someone is making a lot of money. I disagree. You're falling into the trap of attributing to cupidity what can be better attributed to stupidity & ignorance. Example: I used to be responsible for a lot of equipment & research staff etc on an icebreaker. The Govt brought in a new rule WRT introduction of foreign species into Antarctic waters. There was another rule WRT introduction of toxic paints. The toxic paint rule meant we didn't antifoul the hull. During winter, there would be some marine growth on it. Ergo, some risk of pest introduction to the Antarctic. Solution proposed by a bureaucrat who couldn't even spell 'ship' - keep it in fresh water to prevent the growth of organisms. Brilliant solution, it only involved the demolition of 3 bridges and dredging a deep channel. I counter- proposed that we keep the ship in dry dock, as long as they paid for it. The really stupid bit was, after you passed thru the pack ice often 200nm off the coast, there was NO growth left on the hull anyway, and as a marine biologist, I'd reckon that the chances of an organism acclimated to an estuarine environment with a water temp of 12C surviving in a deep ocean environment (2000 - 5000m water at the edge of the pack) in water of -1.8C was so close to zero as to not matter. That idea, at least, went away. This year, so did I. Interesting job, but... PDW| 14658|14470|2007-10-04 22:45:24|brentswain38|Re: Forsight, Hindsight!|Pumping the plastic hose full of sikaflex would make them dead quiet. If you drill a hole halfway along the plastic hose, and stick the point of your calking gun in there and pump, it should come out both ends roughly the same time. That $6.99 a tube Home Hardware stuff by lepages is every bit as good as sikaflex. The cheaper beige coloured lepages ($3.99 a tube ) is not as good as the coloured stuff. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The plastic tubing on the sheet blocks works well. If it is snug around the > shackles and extra long, it stops most of the rattle, except when things are > really flogging. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 12:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > You usually adjust it only once for a reef, then it doesn't move on > the sheet. Never had a chafe problem there, but I'm considering going > for standard becket blocks held up to the top lifeline by shockcord > for sheet leads,to eliminate chafe on the fixed block on the rail. > Alignment will be better and the shock cord shold stop any banging in > a calm. > I may wrap the shackles on the bottom in plastic tubing and pump them > full of sikaflex to keep them calm while allowing alignment. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Rigged in a loop, rope on rope, every time you adjust the pull-down > rope, it > > moves across the sheet, sawing on the sheet, chafing it. Every time the > > headsail flaps as you roll in a seaway, as can happen as the wind is > > decreasing after a blow, the loop with move on the sheet, chafing it. > > > > Whether this is a problem, depends on boat size and your sheets. As > boat > > size increases, the force on the sheets increases, increasing the > chafe. 3 > > strand nylon sheets will take a lot more chafe before they show wear, as > > compared to braided polyester. However the 3 strand nylon sheets > are not to > > everyone's taste. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:02 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > It's never been a problem for me in the last 35 years and 9 Pacific > > crossings. The rope stays in the same place on the sheet, just bends > > for and aft a bit. No chafe in that. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > I would not leave rope on rope during a passage. Otherwise there is > > always > > > the potential for movement, and for the ropes to saw on each other. > > Maybe > > > it works fine for miles, then one night as conditions change, > while you > > > can't see what is happening, your sheets get damaged. > > > > > > To me, good sheets are like gold. Heartbreak is to discover a > sheet has > > > been chewed up during the night due to chafe. What do you do with it? > > > Tough to splice in a 100% strength repair that will still work in the > > > blocks. I never take a chance with chafe if it can be avoided. > > > > > > A rolling hitch is secure, easily adjusted and eliminates the > > potential for > > > chafe. You could lead it through a block if you want. I find it simple > > > enough to slide the knot up and down the sheet as required to adjust. > > > > > > I find a rolling hitch is one of the most useful knots aboard, > probably > > > second only to the bowline during passage making. I tie one around > > a spare > > > halyard when going aloft, and slide it up and down as I climb as a > > safety. > > > > > > g > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:06 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a piece of rope tied to my chainplate , looped over the sheet > > > and back to a block , then back to the cockpit. When reefed , I would > > > pull the rope in from the cockpit, until the sail shape was right, > > > then tie it off, releasing it when the squall had passed, and the sail > > > was rolled out again.Worked well > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > A rolling hitch from the rail to the lazy sheet downwind works > > > wonders to > > > > control sail shape in a seaway. Adjustable without retying. > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:45 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Forsight, Hindsight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's interesting. I once sailed with a pro and noticed the > > > > extra line to the rail and I was having so much fun, I forgot to ask > > > > him what it was for, and now I know..:) > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > everytime you reef, Slight modificatios can be done by tying a > line > > > > > across the sheet to the rail and adjusting it slightly to put > a kink > > > > > in the sheet and get the perfect angle. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why :) > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.30/1027 - Release > Date: > > > > > 24/09/2007 > > > > > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14659|14644|2007-10-04 22:46:04|seeratlas|Re: bare hull|rflmao :) Two-foot-itis is the bane > of any man's life! > > Alex > | 14660|14641|2007-10-04 22:46:34|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|I doubt if I'll ever go aluminium again. It is in high demand amoung thieves, the bottom was so corroded that it needed repalcement,and mig welders are hard to find. With fibreglass, you can repair or beef it up anywhere with no special equipment . There is no market for scrap fibreglass and if you make it so ugly it has no resale value , but is every bit as functional as a pretty one, the likelihood of it being stolen is drasticaly reduced. If someone tries to use it after it has been stolen , it will stand out like a sore thumb, and friends will recognise it. The bottom of my aluminium dinghy which started out at 1/8th wa getting paper thin. With fibreglass it would be easy to lay a couple more layers on anytime, anywhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Th easiest way to find what surfaces are foldable is to make models . > > Many people have asked me for details ont he dinghy pattern .I just > > tellthem to copy the pattern in the book ,make a model of it, then > > make modified versions out of cardboard until you have what you like. > > If I were to make another folded dinghy, I'd go wider on the transom > > and the bottom. > > Brent > > > Brent, would u still go aluminum? Can you weld aluminum with a mig > welder, if I was to make a dinghy this way? > > Rowland > | 14661|14548|2007-10-04 22:47:26|seeratlas|Re: Surf's UP!!|I have to admit, this bit about scraping recreational boat hulls to prevent introduction of foreign species seems a bit out of whack when you have these huge oceanliners simply sucking up tens of thousands of gallons of species soup in the name of ballast in one area and discharging same in another on a daily basis... seer > I disagree. You're falling into the trap of attributing to cupidity > what can be better attributed to stupidity & ignorance. > > Example: I used to be responsible for a lot of equipment & research > staff etc on an icebreaker. The Govt brought in a new rule WRT > introduction of foreign species into Antarctic waters. There was > another rule WRT introduction of toxic paints. > > The toxic paint rule meant we didn't antifoul the hull. During > winter, there would be some marine growth on it. Ergo, some risk of > pest introduction to the Antarctic. Solution proposed by a bureaucrat > who couldn't even spell 'ship' - keep it in fresh water to prevent > the growth of organisms. Brilliant solution, it only involved the > demolition of 3 bridges and dredging a deep channel. I counter- > proposed that we keep the ship in dry dock, as long as they paid for > it. > > The really stupid bit was, after you passed thru the pack ice often > 200nm off the coast, there was NO growth left on the hull anyway, and > as a marine biologist, I'd reckon that the chances of an organism > acclimated to an estuarine environment with a water temp of 12C > surviving in a deep ocean environment (2000 - 5000m water at the edge > of the pack) in water of -1.8C was so close to zero as to not matter. > > That idea, at least, went away. This year, so did I. Interesting job, > but... > > PDW > | 14662|14493|2007-10-04 22:57:38|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|I'v eowened my ownm home . debt free since i was 21 years old. something you simply don't do if your home is on land. Been semi retired since I was 26 , working one month a year, something real estate consumers don't do. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Langelo wrote: > > I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over > $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my > ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. > His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled > plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as > rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is > to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours > for eh? > John > --- ge@... wrote: > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > > for $26,500. Quite > > possibly some people would say that the hull is > > expensive and the boat > > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > > as a bargain. > > > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > > considerably less than what most > > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > > probably taken in something > > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > > price of less than $200k > > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > > house in Vancouver these > > days for much less than $700k. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > > owning and living > > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > > your designing? > > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > > was a beautiful > > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > > for my tastes.Costs > > > too much cruisin time. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > > II is simply > > > shooting their > > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > > Typical BS. > > > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > > Hawaii sailing, > > > using the > > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > > programmed a notebook > > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > > the drawings and > > > table of > > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > > to Autocad and > > added the > > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > > hull using the offsets I > > > > provided. > > > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > > my name, it is about > > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > > sailing for years > > > and come > > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > > the techniques > > > promoted on > > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > > shoots their mouth off > > > without > > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > > advice. One only needs > > > look at > > > > the person giving advice to see where their > > advice leads. > > > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > > Beautiful evening. > > > Probably one > > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > > on the water, > > > dinner and > > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > > my interest in > > > sailing. > > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > > to have a boat? No > > > thanks. > > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > > have nothing to do with > > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > > advice is for > > > people that > > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > > way to achieve this. > > > Boat > > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > > when you get the > > > economics > > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > > exercise that delays > > > sailing, and > > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > > life. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > > huge ,full length keel. > > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > > and detailed it . > > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > > have to fill up your > > > > site with something. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > > you design or help build > > > > it? > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > > professional artist and > > > likely > > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > > lines. The boat is > > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > > with two much better > > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > > in front of a steel > > > boat > > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > > is > === message truncated === > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 14663|14548|2007-10-04 22:58:11|brentswain38|Re: Surf's UP!!|Handy scapegoat politics. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I have to admit, this bit about scraping recreational boat hulls to > prevent introduction of foreign species seems a bit out of whack when > you have these huge oceanliners simply sucking up tens of thousands of > gallons of species soup in the name of ballast in one area and > discharging same in another on a daily basis... > > seer > > > > I disagree. You're falling into the trap of attributing to cupidity > > what can be better attributed to stupidity & ignorance. > > > > Example: I used to be responsible for a lot of equipment & research > > staff etc on an icebreaker. The Govt brought in a new rule WRT > > introduction of foreign species into Antarctic waters. There was > > another rule WRT introduction of toxic paints. > > > > The toxic paint rule meant we didn't antifoul the hull. During > > winter, there would be some marine growth on it. Ergo, some risk of > > pest introduction to the Antarctic. Solution proposed by a bureaucrat > > who couldn't even spell 'ship' - keep it in fresh water to prevent > > the growth of organisms. Brilliant solution, it only involved the > > demolition of 3 bridges and dredging a deep channel. I counter- > > proposed that we keep the ship in dry dock, as long as they paid for > > it. > > > > The really stupid bit was, after you passed thru the pack ice often > > 200nm off the coast, there was NO growth left on the hull anyway, and > > as a marine biologist, I'd reckon that the chances of an organism > > acclimated to an estuarine environment with a water temp of 12C > > surviving in a deep ocean environment (2000 - 5000m water at the edge > > of the pack) in water of -1.8C was so close to zero as to not matter. > > > > That idea, at least, went away. This year, so did I. Interesting job, > > but... > > > > PDW > > > | 14664|14641|2007-10-05 03:47:30|Gerd|Re: BOATBUILDING|All of these and a number of other programs can do developable hard- chine hulls. None of them can do origami "natively" though, except lunstroms Touchcad probably. I had a look at it, seems to be done just for the job, but I could not get happy with the price or the interface. By natively I mean that you can not just design a hull and then ask the program to convert it to a foldable origami pattern with darts cut out, they simp,y will not "understand" what you are traing to do. With all these programs, your best bet is to design a hard chine hull first. Then you unroll the panels, print them out and build a model from there. To approximate the origami pattern, instead of joining the panel edges along the original chine, you make them overlap at the ends. You can then validate this model agains your design goals and your §D model int eh porogram, review, modify, print again and so on until you like what you get. The advantage is that your 3D model int eh computer will all the time update it's hydrostatic properties, so you can see while you play around what influence this has on your design. The differences between the hard chine model and the origami version of it are that your rounded origami shape is "inside" the hardchine version in the ends of the boat, meaning that your displacement will be a tiny little bit lower, and your form coefficients (block, prismatic, waterplane...) also. This is not so difficult to compensate for, you just make your hard chine version a little bit fatter in the ends. Finally, you can also save a lot of the intermediate modelling by doing the entire pattern inside the program. (you still have to validate the final pattern on a model of course...) It requires quite a bit of twisting and tweaking, and differs from one program to another, but the end result is a smooth outline of the full half hull pattern. If you go to my site http://www.yago-project.com you can find the (uncomplete) version of the workbook in the download section, and in there I have made a detailed description of the way I do that using Rhino. This works very nice, I have now 3 completely different hulls building, with their own origami patterns that were designed like this, and they all came together very nicely when folded. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I said it before but maybe I should say it again. I have used Hulls from Carlson design as well as Freeship and Delftship programs for origami boat design. Hulls is freeware, very easy to use and a great place to start. Freeship is freeware as well. It is bit more complicated to learn but much more powerful. Freeship has a yahoo user group. Delftship is the new paid version of Freeship. They all do plate developments extremely well. > > I am using Rhinoceros now for interior design but for the actual hull design one of the above programs should do everything you want. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 4:48:44 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math involved > in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs > available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself > with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the > inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of > the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the > hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where you > place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going to > drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is > applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I > think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying > to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a > substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and > take actual surfaces from an existing hull. > > Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo > better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he wants > to use. > > Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building metal > boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what > constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who > want to do it themselves. > > seer > > > eduardo > > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this group, and > > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14665|14641|2007-10-05 07:00:30|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: BOATBUILDING|Rhino 4.0 now has a feature that will do darts. Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 2:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING All of these and a number of other programs can do developable hard- chine hulls. None of them can do origami "natively" though, except lunstroms Touchcad probably. I had a look at it, seems to be done just for the job, but I could not get happy with the price or the interface. By natively I mean that you can not just design a hull and then ask the program to convert it to a foldable origami pattern with darts cut out, they simp,y will not "understand" what you are traing to do. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14666|14641|2007-10-05 07:00:39|sae140|Re: BOATBUILDING|A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets using plywood and plaster. When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you think about it. I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate it ? Colin| 14667|14641|2007-10-05 12:29:53|Gerd|Re: BOATBUILDING|Colin, the rule of thumb ist that you would simply place the horizontal part of the dart-cut where the chine would be if you had designed a single-chined hull... because that is what central part of an origami hull essentially is. The difference concerning your hydro calcs is small, and if for example you do rollover calcs for your stability curve, you get virtually the same curve for both. So, once you know what your desired parameters are for your boat, you have your master section and then you may decide to slip the chine just under the waterline to hide it. For the vertical cut in the bottom panels), it has no real importance where it is, just a question of convenience and nesting to cut in the middel to keep the flaps short. What does influence the shape a lot though, is the length of the horizontal cut. From my experiments so far I would say that a shorter cut with longer conical sections produces more compound curves fore and aft and has less welding to do (both desirable) but also has lower form coefficients than the longer cut, because these are determined for a given master section that is not influenced by the length of the cut, and this may be undesirable if they get too low. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > using plywood and plaster. > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > think about it. > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > it ? > > Colin > | 14668|14641|2007-10-05 12:29:56|Gerd|Re: BOATBUILDING|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jay K. Jeffries" wrote: > > Rhino 4.0 now has a feature that will do darts. It does? I am runnign version 4, but I must have missed out on that feature - where would that be? do you have any pointers on that please? very much interested... Gerd| 14669|14669|2007-10-05 12:30:14|Ray|Expensive Fishing Trip|http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1505173563/show/1148582| 14670|14670|2007-10-05 12:30:43|Carl Anderson|A good read|Has anyone on the group read the new book by Beth Leonard "The Voyager's Handbook"? Seems to have an incredible amount of good ideas and information. I like the information that in a survey of a dozen offshore voyagers, when they went out for their second big trip nearly half had opted for a metal boat! Not for any added strength but because they are the only truly watertight hull. Seems that all plastic boats leak tremendously through the hull to deck seam & all the through deck fittings. I've got the second edition which was updated in 2007. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 14671|14641|2007-10-05 12:30:52|Wesley Cox|Re: BOATBUILDING|Brent, are you saying fibreglass sheet folded origami? ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING I doubt if I'll ever go aluminium again. It is in high demand amoung thieves, the bottom was so corroded that it needed repalcement,and mig welders are hard to find. With fibreglass, you can repair or beef it up anywhere with no special equipment . There is no market for scrap fibreglass and if you make it so ugly it has no resale value , but is every bit as functional as a pretty one, the likelihood of it being stolen is drasticaly reduced. If someone tries to use it after it has been stolen , it will stand out like a sore thumb, and friends will recognise it. The bottom of my aluminium dinghy which started out at 1/8th wa getting paper thin. With fibreglass it would be easy to lay a couple more layers on anytime, anywhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Th easiest way to find what surfaces are foldable is to make models . > > Many people have asked me for details ont he dinghy pattern .I just > > tellthem to copy the pattern in the book ,make a model of it, then > > make modified versions out of cardboard until you have what you like. > > If I were to make another folded dinghy, I'd go wider on the transom > > and the bottom. > > Brent > > > Brent, would u still go aluminum? Can you weld aluminum with a mig > welder, if I was to make a dinghy this way? > > Rowland > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14672|14641|2007-10-05 13:29:12|seeratlas|Re: BOATBUILDING|Gerd, Now most on the board know that YOU are qualified to design a hull:) but I would caution those who aren't to think this through. There's a helluva lot more to yacht design than just getting something to look like what you see in your head. Balancing a given hull design is an art and art comes from experience, lots of it. Just because someone *can* model up their own hull etc. doesn't necessarily translate to a well founded yacht upon completion. I can think of quite a few really good *looking* production boats that don't sail worth a damn or have other critical deficiencies for world cruising... I guess what i'm saying is, if someone is determined to 'go their own way' they should at the very least have an *experienced* (and I mean by that 'on the water' experience) naval architect/designer review their projects to make sure the thing will float evenly on its lines, balance on the helm, and not be crippled in some critical point of sail or design. Even adapting someone else's existing hull design is fraught with opportunity to screw up an otherwise excellently performing vessel. Sometimes its a helluva trip from paper to water, and this stuff is too expensive, too time consuming, and too dangerous to not make sure you get it 'right':) As a 'for instance' an extremely experienced Canadian cruising boat designer towards the end of his life (Stan Huntingford) designed my Arctic Falcon putting everything he knew into it (his words not mine). None the less, it wasn't until she actually hit the water, and floated straight and level fore and aft and athwartships, that I saw him clap his hands and finally relax LOL. He had been sweating it too :) The *first* of anything is always a bit risky, so minimize the risks. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > All of these and a number of other programs can do developable hard- > chine hulls. None of them can do origami "natively" though, except > lunstroms Touchcad probably. I had a look at it, seems to be done > just for the job, but I could not get happy with the price or the > interface. > > By natively I mean that you can not just design a hull and then ask > the program to convert it to a foldable origami pattern with darts > cut out, they simp,y will not "understand" what you are traing to do. > > With all these programs, your best bet is to design a hard chine hull > first. Then you unroll the panels, print them out and build a model > from there. To approximate the origami pattern, instead of joining > the panel edges along the original chine, you make them overlap at > the ends. > > You can then validate this model agains your design goals and your §D > model int eh porogram, review, modify, print again and so on until > you like what you get. > > The advantage is that your 3D model int eh computer will all the time > update it's hydrostatic properties, so you can see while you play > around what influence this has on your design. > > The differences between the hard chine model and the origami version > of it are that your rounded origami shape is "inside" the hardchine > version in the ends of the boat, meaning that your displacement will > be a tiny little bit lower, and your form coefficients (block, > prismatic, waterplane...) also. This is not so difficult to > compensate for, you just make your hard chine version a little bit > fatter in the ends. > > Finally, you can also save a lot of the intermediate modelling by > doing the entire pattern inside the program. (you still have to > validate the final pattern on a model of course...) It requires quite > a bit of twisting and tweaking, and differs from one program to > another, but the end result is a smooth outline of the full half hull > pattern. If you go to my site http://www.yago-project.com you can > find the (uncomplete) version of the workbook in the download > section, and in there I have made a detailed description of the way > I do that using Rhino. This works very nice, I have now 3 completely > different hulls building, with their own origami patterns that were > designed like this, and they all came together very nicely when > folded. > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I said it before but maybe I should say it again. I have used > Hulls from Carlson design as well as Freeship and Delftship programs > for origami boat design. Hulls is freeware, very easy to use and a > great place to start. Freeship is freeware as well. It is bit more > complicated to learn but much more powerful. Freeship has a yahoo > user group. Delftship is the new paid version of Freeship. They all > do plate developments extremely well. > > > > I am using Rhinoceros now for interior design but for the actual > hull design one of the above programs should do everything you want. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 4:48:44 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math > involved > > in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs > > available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself > > with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the > > inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of > > the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the > > hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where > you > > place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going > to > > drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is > > applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I > > think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying > > to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a > > substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and > > take actual surfaces from an existing hull. > > > > Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo > > better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he > wants > > to use. > > > > Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building > metal > > boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what > > constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who > > want to do it themselves. > > > > seer > > > > > eduardo > > > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > > > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this > group, and > > > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > Need a vacation? Get great deals > > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14673|14493|2007-10-05 13:41:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg, question for you|From what people have reported on this site, it currently takes about 3 years and $100k+ to build a 36 foot boat, if you do most of the work yourself. 3 years is about $100k+ in lost wages. In real terms, this is $100k-$200k+ to build a 36 foot boat boat. It take most people years to save that much money. Thus, they often run out of money before the boat is completed, and the project stalls. In contrast, while we were cruising, the renters paid off the debt. From then on, the house paid us about $25k a year to cruise. Over 3 years, this is about $75k. You can buy a lot of boat for $75k, as per the BS36 for sale recently for $65k asking. It will likely sell for less, as steel boats are hard to sell in the US. Most people would be hard pressed to build one 1/2 as nice for that amount. This doesn't begin to consider the increase in property value. It is a mistake to think increases in property values are a thing of the past. One of the biggest run-ups in property values in BC has taken place over the past 5 years. Land goes up in value because it is hard to make new land. You can use a boat, motor-home, etc as a home for less $$. However, the boat, motor-home, they lose value in real terms over time because you can always make more of them. Thus, you can typically buy a good used boat, motor-home, etc for less than it would cost to build something equivalent. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you I'v eowened my ownm home . debt free since i was 21 years old. something you simply don't do if your home is on land. Been semi retired since I was 26 , working one month a year, something real estate consumers don't do. Brent -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, John Langelo wrote: > > I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over > $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my > ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. > His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled > plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as > rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is > to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours > for eh? > John > --- ge@... wrote: > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > > for $26,500. Quite > > possibly some people would say that the hull is > > expensive and the boat > > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > > as a bargain. > > > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > > considerably less than what most > > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > > probably taken in something > > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > > price of less than $200k > > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > > house in Vancouver these > > days for much less than $700k. > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > > owning and living > > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > > your designing? > > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > > was a beautiful > > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > > for my tastes.Costs > > > too much cruisin time. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > > II is simply > > > shooting their > > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > > Typical BS. > > > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > > Hawaii sailing, > > > using the > > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > > programmed a notebook > > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > > the drawings and > > > table of > > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > > to Autocad and > > added the > > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > > hull using the offsets I > > > > provided. > > > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > > my name, it is about > > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > > sailing for years > > > and come > > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > > the techniques > > > promoted on > > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > > shoots their mouth off > > > without > > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > > advice. One only needs > > > look at > > > > the person giving advice to see where their > > advice leads. > > > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > > Beautiful evening. > > > Probably one > > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > > on the water, > > > dinner and > > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > > my interest in > > > sailing. > > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > > to have a boat? No > > > thanks. > > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > > have nothing to do with > > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > > advice is for > > > people that > > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > > way to achieve this. > > > Boat > > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > > when you get the > > > economics > > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > > exercise that delays > > > sailing, and > > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > > life. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > > huge ,full length keel. > > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > > and detailed it . > > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > > have to fill up your > > > > site with something. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > > you design or help build > > > > it? > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > > professional artist and > > > likely > > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > > lines. The boat is > > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > > with two much better > > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > > in front of a steel > > > boat > > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > > is > === message truncated === > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14674|14641|2007-10-05 14:27:32|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|I prefer to keep the chine just below thre waterline so waves won't slap it in a harbour, and so it won't show. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > using plywood and plaster. > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > think about it. > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > it ? > > Colin > | 14675|14641|2007-10-05 14:29:24|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|That would work, but there are all kinds of old moldy fibreglas dinhies in backyards for far less than the cost of materials, that could be rejuvenated for less than the cost of materials neede top biuld a new one. My curent dingy came out of a junk pile that was bound for a landfill. It had grass growing out of the gunels and tar sealing the holes amidships. All I needed was the shape . It was a 10 footer and I needed a 7 1/2 footer so I cut the tarred 2 1/2 feet out of the middle , gave it a bit more rocker when I put the two halves together, put some longitudinal floatation tanks in so I could put the plywood seat where ever I wanted it, and removeable. I gave it a couple more layers of glass and it is now the best dinghy I ever owned. It cost me a bit for materials, but if I'd bought a dinghy in better shape it would have cost that much just to make it the way I wanted.It's very efficient , does exactly what I need it to do and looks ugly as a bureaucrats heart, so it's far less likely to get stolen than a prettier one with resale value. I once built a dingy out of a single sheet of plywood for under $20 as a temporary dinghy. It lasted 20 years and a trip to Tahiti and back. Don't blow your cruising funds and time the little things like a dinghy before you get out and do some cruising. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Brent, are you saying fibreglass sheet folded origami? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING > > > I doubt if I'll ever go aluminium again. It is in high demand amoung > thieves, the bottom was so corroded that it needed repalcement,and mig > welders are hard to find. With fibreglass, you can repair or beef it > up anywhere with no special equipment . There is no market for scrap > fibreglass and if you make it so ugly it has no resale value , but is > every bit as functional as a pretty one, the likelihood of it being > stolen is drasticaly reduced. If someone tries to use it after it has > been stolen , it will stand out like a sore thumb, and friends will > recognise it. > The bottom of my aluminium dinghy which started out at 1/8th wa > getting paper thin. With fibreglass it would be easy to lay a couple > more layers on anytime, anywhere. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Th easiest way to find what surfaces are foldable is to make models . > > > Many people have asked me for details ont he dinghy pattern .I just > > > tellthem to copy the pattern in the book ,make a model of it, then > > > make modified versions out of cardboard until you have what you like. > > > If I were to make another folded dinghy, I'd go wider on the transom > > > and the bottom. > > > Brent > > > > > Brent, would u still go aluminum? Can you weld aluminum with a mig > > welder, if I was to make a dinghy this way? > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14676|14670|2007-10-05 15:26:10|brentswain38|Re: A good read|Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Voyaging" was a similar one that drew similar conclusions. Designers of some fibreglass boats apperantly grossly underestimate the loads on the hull deck joint , and fail to understand that it takes the entire twisting load on a boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Has anyone on the group read the new book by Beth Leonard "The Voyager's > Handbook"? > > Seems to have an incredible amount of good ideas and information. > > I like the information that in a survey of a dozen offshore voyagers, > when they went out for their second big trip nearly half had opted for a > metal boat! Not for any added strength but because they are the only > truly watertight hull. Seems that all plastic boats leak tremendously > through the hull to deck seam & all the through deck fittings. > > I've got the second edition which was updated in 2007. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > | 14677|14641|2007-10-05 15:29:09|Gerd|Re: BOATBUILDING|Seer, thanks for pointing that out and I fully agree and support what you say here. Actually I was more thinking about the design process of an origami pattern. The word "origami" does of course not define a boat. But I think that people with an open mind and a lt of practical intelligence could take the plans for an existing hard chine hull and CONVERT it to origami if they are careful, start from the original table of offsets for the chines, maintain all scantling, areas and volumes, appendices and all the rest of the original plan. In that case, you would have a boat that is bnearly identical to the original, with minor reductions of displacement and form coefficients. So, just to prevent anybody getting into trouble: do NOT design your own boat unless you are ready to invest more time and work into the preliminary study and lerning process as well as into the design than what it will take you to build the thing - and I am not exagerating! It's possible, it's not rocket science, but it is NOT done by any program for you, programs are just tools, and you will add cosiderable time just to learn to handle them well enough to be able to ttrust their output. You absolutely have to know what you do BEFORE you render a beautiful hull in 3D, you have to plan what you target and define it in all it's parameters, you have to know what the implications of each decisions are, and all that can not be done for you by any program!!! ;-) but... if anybody seriously wants to into the learning process, drop me a mail. I could not do the work for you, but within my limited area of experience I would be happy to give hints on where to start and what to look at, advise on approaches, tools, programs... I'm always happy to waste my time on boats ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gerd, > Now most on the board know that YOU are qualified to design a hull:) > but I would caution those who aren't to think this through. There's a > helluva lot more to yacht design than just getting something to look > like what you see in your head. Balancing a given hull design is an > art and art comes from experience, lots of it. Just because someone > *can* model up their own hull etc. doesn't necessarily translate to a > well founded yacht upon completion. I can think of quite a few really > good *looking* production boats that don't sail worth a damn or have > other critical deficiencies for world cruising... > I guess what i'm saying is, if someone is determined to 'go their own > way' they should at the very least have an *experienced* (and I mean > by that 'on the water' experience) naval architect/designer review > their projects to make sure the thing will float evenly on its lines, > balance on the helm, and not be crippled in some critical point of > sail or design. Even adapting someone else's existing hull design is > fraught with opportunity to screw up an otherwise excellently > performing vessel. Sometimes its a helluva trip from paper to water, > and this stuff is too expensive, too time consuming, and too dangerous > to not make sure you get it 'right':) As a 'for instance' an extremely > experienced Canadian cruising boat designer towards the end of his > life (Stan Huntingford) designed my Arctic Falcon putting everything > he knew into it (his words not mine). None the less, it wasn't until > she actually hit the water, and floated straight and level fore and > aft and athwartships, that I saw him clap his hands and finally relax > LOL. He had been sweating it too :) The *first* of anything is always > a bit risky, so minimize the risks. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > All of these and a number of other programs can do developable hard- > > chine hulls. None of them can do origami "natively" though, except > > lunstroms Touchcad probably. I had a look at it, seems to be done > > just for the job, but I could not get happy with the price or the > > interface. > > > > By natively I mean that you can not just design a hull and then ask > > the program to convert it to a foldable origami pattern with darts > > cut out, they simp,y will not "understand" what you are traing to do. > > > > With all these programs, your best bet is to design a hard chine hull > > first. Then you unroll the panels, print them out and build a model > > from there. To approximate the origami pattern, instead of joining > > the panel edges along the original chine, you make them overlap at > > the ends. > > > > You can then validate this model agains your design goals and your §D > > model int eh porogram, review, modify, print again and so on until > > you like what you get. > > > > The advantage is that your 3D model int eh computer will all the time > > update it's hydrostatic properties, so you can see while you play > > around what influence this has on your design. > > > > The differences between the hard chine model and the origami version > > of it are that your rounded origami shape is "inside" the hardchine > > version in the ends of the boat, meaning that your displacement will > > be a tiny little bit lower, and your form coefficients (block, > > prismatic, waterplane...) also. This is not so difficult to > > compensate for, you just make your hard chine version a little bit > > fatter in the ends. > > > > Finally, you can also save a lot of the intermediate modelling by > > doing the entire pattern inside the program. (you still have to > > validate the final pattern on a model of course...) It requires quite > > a bit of twisting and tweaking, and differs from one program to > > another, but the end result is a smooth outline of the full half hull > > pattern. If you go to my site http://www.yago-project.com you can > > find the (uncomplete) version of the workbook in the download > > section, and in there I have made a detailed description of the way > > I do that using Rhino. This works very nice, I have now 3 completely > > different hulls building, with their own origami patterns that were > > designed like this, and they all came together very nicely when > > folded. > > > > Gerd > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I said it before but maybe I should say it again. I have used > > Hulls from Carlson design as well as Freeship and Delftship programs > > for origami boat design. Hulls is freeware, very easy to use and a > > great place to start. Freeship is freeware as well. It is bit more > > complicated to learn but much more powerful. Freeship has a yahoo > > user group. Delftship is the new paid version of Freeship. They all > > do plate developments extremely well. > > > > > > I am using Rhinoceros now for interior design but for the actual > > hull design one of the above programs should do everything you want. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, October 5, 2007 4:48:44 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "drddias" wrote: > > > Eduardo, I don't think many here are up to speed on the math > > involved > > > in resolving those surfaces in the various 3d drafting programs > > > available. Those that are, I thought responded. I've tried it myself > > > with not a lot of luck other than 'approximations' due to the > > > inability of the program to take input on the various parameters of > > > the steel which will affect the curvatures induced by pulling the > > > hulls together. Maybe I'm being naive, but seems to me that where > > you > > > place the longitudinals, and their composition and length, is going > > to > > > drastically affect where and how they bend as the pulling force is > > > applied. Frankly, when I asked Brent about it, I was told, and I > > > think rightfully so, that the best way to proceed (if you are trying > > > to build an origami hull NOT of Brent's design) is to build a > > > substantial model then take your surfaces from that, or go out and > > > take actual surfaces from an existing hull. > > > > > > Maybe those of you with excellent 3D cad skills, can give eduardo > > > better input and/or advise with respect to the exact program he > > wants > > > to use. > > > > > > Lastly, as I understand it, this group is mostly about building > > metal > > > boats using origami techniques, to suit a variety of views of what > > > constitutes a well founded all around cruising vessel for people who > > > want to do it themselves. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > eduardo > > > > p.s.I was surpriesed not to have answers to my post in foldable > > > > surfaces, which I thought that was the main subject of this > > group, and > > > > I was particulary intersted in discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________ > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals > > > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14678|14493|2007-10-05 15:30:16|brentswain38|Re: Greg, question for you|Gee Greg ! I've always built my own boats and have owned my own home debt free since I was 21 years old , and have been semi-retired since I was 26. Are you saying I've been doing it all wrong? Few take 3 years and 100 grand . Winston built the Dove 11 in 1989 for $14,000 to launching and was heading for Hawaii in her for $17,000. He was a master scrounger. The only way I can see a 36 costing $100,000 is if one is dense enough to buy everything new in a world awash with used sailing and building supplies, and if one is useless enough to have to hire people to do everything. Costa Vida was launched 1 year after the steel arived, as was Mike and Melissa's boat.I was 1 month from the steel ariving to launching. It took another 2 weeks to finish the detailing, ten days of painting ,a couple of days to rough the interior in , and a week to rig her. I started Mungo in June, she was launched and sailing in november the same year. John Sampson, who started the cement boat craze back in the 60's said he told people that they could get cruising cheaply if they followed his advice , do your own work, glavanized rigging , used equipment wherever possible, used engine,sails etc. People interpreted this to mean you could hire a company to do everything, buy all new retail equipment , cover the decks and everything else you can think of with teak, have new sails custom made, buy a brand new rig with stainless rigging, and not incure a single penny of added cost. I make no claim that you can do things that way and still have an inexpensive boat. If you do all your own work and stick to the instructions in my book, your boat will be very affordable. Ignore this and the sky is the limit. People who go the real estate route take a lot longer to get out cruising. People who go the wife and family and real estate route tend for the most part to make short ,three years cruises , get back on the treadmill and spend the rest of their lives there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > From what people have reported on this site, it currently takes about 3 > years and $100k+ to build a 36 foot boat, if you do most of the work > yourself. 3 years is about $100k+ in lost wages. In real terms, this is > $100k-$200k+ to build a 36 foot boat boat. It take most people years to > save that much money. Thus, they often run out of money before the boat is > completed, and the project stalls. > > In contrast, while we were cruising, the renters paid off the debt. From > then on, the house paid us about $25k a year to cruise. Over 3 years, this > is about $75k. You can buy a lot of boat for $75k, as per the BS36 for sale > recently for $65k asking. It will likely sell for less, as steel boats are > hard to sell in the US. Most people would be hard pressed to build one 1/2 > as nice for that amount. > > This doesn't begin to consider the increase in property value. It is a > mistake to think increases in property values are a thing of the past. One > of the biggest run-ups in property values in BC has taken place over the > past 5 years. Land goes up in value because it is hard to make new land. > > You can use a boat, motor-home, etc as a home for less $$. However, the > boat, motor-home, they lose value in real terms over time because you can > always make more of them. Thus, you can typically buy a good used boat, > motor-home, etc for less than it would cost to build something equivalent. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:54 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > I'v eowened my ownm home . debt free since i was 21 years old. > something you simply don't do if your home is on land. > Been semi retired since I was 26 , working one month a year, > something real estate consumers don't do. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > John Langelo wrote: > > > > I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over > > $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my > > ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. > > His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled > > plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as > > rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is > > to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours > > for eh? > > John > > --- ge@ wrote: > > > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > > > for $26,500. Quite > > > possibly some people would say that the hull is > > > expensive and the boat > > > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > > > as a bargain. > > > > > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > > > considerably less than what most > > > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > > > probably taken in something > > > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > > > price of less than $200k > > > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > > > house in Vancouver these > > > days for much less than $700k. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > > > owning and living > > > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > > > your designing? > > > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > > > was a beautiful > > > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > > > for my tastes.Costs > > > > too much cruisin time. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > > > II is simply > > > > shooting their > > > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > > > Typical BS. > > > > > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > > > Hawaii sailing, > > > > using the > > > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > > > programmed a notebook > > > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > > > the drawings and > > > > table of > > > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > > > to Autocad and > > > added the > > > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > > > hull using the offsets I > > > > > provided. > > > > > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > > > my name, it is about > > > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > > > sailing for years > > > > and come > > > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > > > the techniques > > > > promoted on > > > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > > > shoots their mouth off > > > > without > > > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > > > advice. One only needs > > > > look at > > > > > the person giving advice to see where their > > > advice leads. > > > > > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > > > Beautiful evening. > > > > Probably one > > > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > > > on the water, > > > > dinner and > > > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > > > my interest in > > > > sailing. > > > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > > > to have a boat? No > > > > thanks. > > > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > > > have nothing to do with > > > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > > > advice is for > > > > people that > > > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > > > way to achieve this. > > > > Boat > > > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > > > when you get the > > > > economics > > > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > > > exercise that delays > > > > sailing, and > > > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > > > huge ,full length keel. > > > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > > > and detailed it . > > > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > > > have to fill up your > > > > > site with something. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > > > you design or help build > > > > > it? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > > > professional artist and > > > > likely > > > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > > > lines. The boat is > > > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > > > with two much better > > > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > > > in front of a steel > > > > boat > > > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > > > is > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail > yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14679|14679|2007-10-05 15:30:48|jonathanswef|Boatbuilding/design|Seer, There is a lot to be gained going through the design and modeling process even if one then uses another's design for the full size boat. Jonathan.| 14680|14670|2007-10-05 15:31:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: A good read|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Has anyone on the group read the new book by Beth Leonard "The Voyager's > Handbook"? Hi Carl, We've read Beth Leonard's "Following Seas", which we enjoyed. Regards, Ted| 14681|14493|2007-10-05 15:32:11|Gerd|Re: Greg, question for you|Greg, your calculation may or may not be correct, nobody knows, it's based on long term future estimates and therefore speculative. A lot of people would not want to do that just because of the speculative nature of the plan. In any case, for many people - people that could very well work and build and finance it as they go along - it is not a realistic option, they can not get the financement necessary to get a loan to buy a house and a boat, then drop out without working for an income, and go crusing while renters pay back the house. I could not for example, it just does not compute finacially for me, even apart from issues like kids in school, or from the fact that maybe this is not what I want to do because I for sure would not want to drift around some ocean worrying about renters and loans...It may be right for you, but obviously it does not seem attractive or even realistic for most of the people here, and repeating the magic formula over and over does not make it any more convincing ;-) I also have, in the years when I was living aboard myself, met a few people that lived on their boat in the harbour and went to work every morning - this is not easy and not something I would want to do or advise anybody else to to. An ocean going boat under, say, 50 feet is a nice boat when travelling, but makes a bad and uncomfortable apartment in town. I guess if you are young and single, or for a couple without children you can put up with it. A lot depends also where you are, what climate, what job, which port... Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > From what people have reported on this site, it currently takes about 3 > years and $100k+ to build a 36 foot boat, if you do most of the work > yourself. 3 years is about $100k+ in lost wages. In real terms, this is > $100k-$200k+ to build a 36 foot boat boat. It take most people years to > save that much money. Thus, they often run out of money before the boat is > completed, and the project stalls. > > In contrast, while we were cruising, the renters paid off the debt. From > then on, the house paid us about $25k a year to cruise. Over 3 years, this > is about $75k. You can buy a lot of boat for $75k, as per the BS36 for sale > recently for $65k asking. It will likely sell for less, as steel boats are > hard to sell in the US. Most people would be hard pressed to build one 1/2 > as nice for that amount. > > This doesn't begin to consider the increase in property value. It is a > mistake to think increases in property values are a thing of the past. One > of the biggest run-ups in property values in BC has taken place over the > past 5 years. Land goes up in value because it is hard to make new land. > > You can use a boat, motor-home, etc as a home for less $$. However, the > boat, motor-home, they lose value in real terms over time because you can > always make more of them. Thus, you can typically buy a good used boat, > motor-home, etc for less than it would cost to build something equivalent. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:54 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > I'v eowened my ownm home . debt free since i was 21 years old. > something you simply don't do if your home is on land. > Been semi retired since I was 26 , working one month a year, > something real estate consumers don't do. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > John Langelo wrote: > > > > I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over > > $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my > > ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. > > His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled > > plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as > > rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is > > to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours > > for eh? > > John > > --- ge@ wrote: > > > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > > > for $26,500. Quite > > > possibly some people would say that the hull is > > > expensive and the boat > > > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > > > as a bargain. > > > > > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > > > considerably less than what most > > > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > > > probably taken in something > > > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > > > price of less than $200k > > > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > > > house in Vancouver these > > > days for much less than $700k. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > > > owning and living > > > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > > > your designing? > > > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > > > was a beautiful > > > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > > > for my tastes.Costs > > > > too much cruisin time. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > > > II is simply > > > > shooting their > > > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > > > Typical BS. > > > > > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > > > Hawaii sailing, > > > > using the > > > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > > > programmed a notebook > > > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > > > the drawings and > > > > table of > > > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > > > to Autocad and > > > added the > > > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > > > hull using the offsets I > > > > > provided. > > > > > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > > > my name, it is about > > > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > > > sailing for years > > > > and come > > > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > > > the techniques > > > > promoted on > > > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > > > shoots their mouth off > > > > without > > > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > > > advice. One only needs > > > > look at > > > > > the person giving advice to see where their > > > advice leads. > > > > > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > > > Beautiful evening. > > > > Probably one > > > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > > > on the water, > > > > dinner and > > > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > > > my interest in > > > > sailing. > > > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > > > to have a boat? No > > > > thanks. > > > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > > > have nothing to do with > > > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > > > advice is for > > > > people that > > > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > > > way to achieve this. > > > > Boat > > > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > > > when you get the > > > > economics > > > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > > > exercise that delays > > > > sailing, and > > > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > > > huge ,full length keel. > > > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > > > and detailed it . > > > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > > > have to fill up your > > > > > site with something. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > > > you design or help build > > > > > it? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > > > professional artist and > > > > likely > > > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > > > lines. The boat is > > > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > > > with two much better > > > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > > > in front of a steel > > > > boat > > > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > > > is > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail > yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14682|14493|2007-10-05 15:32:34|seeratlas|Re: Greg, question for you|I don't recall anyone saying 3 years and 100k, maybe I need to search the archives. Gord is about to finish his 40, you can ask what he thinks he has in that, maybe close, but his boat is formidable, and vastly larger and more complicated than the 36. And, the thirtysix owners can speak for themselves. Given the large numbers of brent boats out on the water, I *suspect* someone has found it economically and temporally possible to build them...lots of them... Sometimes I don't know which choir it is you are trying to preach to greg. You seem to be that lone voice crying for converts in the wilderness...if that's the case, how many boats have you 'baptized'(i.e. actually gotten in the water) with your system? Did anyone send you photos? I'd love to see them. From what I could see of it, I liked the look of MungoII, but the aluminum 50's left me a bit cold. External hydraulic rudder actuation seems to me to invite anchored mischief. Did you ever finish the sixty footer you have sketched on your site? Have you updated the site lately? been awhile since I looked, but I suppose I can wander over and see anything new. In the meantime, its tough to argue your point convincingly with all the BS boats out sailing, not to mention the ones under construction. You have an alternate path suggestion. Excellent. How many have signed up to follow it? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > From what people have reported on this site, it currently takes about 3 > years and $100k+ to build a 36 foot boat, if you do most of the work > yourself. 3 years is about $100k+ in lost wages. In real terms, this is > $100k-$200k+ to build a 36 foot boat boat. It take most people years to > save that much money. Thus, they often run out of money before the boat is > completed, and the project stalls. > > In contrast, while we were cruising, the renters paid off the debt. From > then on, the house paid us about $25k a year to cruise. Over 3 years, this > is about $75k. You can buy a lot of boat for $75k, as per the BS36 for sale > recently for $65k asking. It will likely sell for less, as steel boats are > hard to sell in the US. Most people would be hard pressed to build one 1/2 > as nice for that amount. > > This doesn't begin to consider the increase in property value. It is a > mistake to think increases in property values are a thing of the past. One > of the biggest run-ups in property values in BC has taken place over the > past 5 years. Land goes up in value because it is hard to make new land. > > You can use a boat, motor-home, etc as a home for less $$. However, the > boat, motor-home, they lose value in real terms over time because you can > always make more of them. Thus, you can typically buy a good used boat, > motor-home, etc for less than it would cost to build something equivalent. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 7:54 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > I'v eowened my ownm home . debt free since i was 21 years old. > something you simply don't do if your home is on land. > Been semi retired since I was 26 , working one month a year, > something real estate consumers don't do. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > John Langelo wrote: > > > > I've seen that first hand. My neighbour has spent over > > $150 thousand on his boat, about the time I bought my > > ten acres next door to him for 120 thousand in 1990. > > His steel hulled boat is a work of art, all rolled > > plating on the hull, it's all first class, and just as > > rusty as my 20 thousand dollar Swain boat. My goal is > > to get mine in the water first. What are neighbours > > for eh? > > John > > --- ge@ wrote: > > > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat > > > for $26,500. Quite > > > possibly some people would say that the hull is > > > expensive and the boat > > > cheap. Another boat was mentioned here at $65,000 > > > as a bargain. > > > > > > I expect over the years, a house cost me > > > considerably less than what most > > > people spend to build an origami boat. I've > > > probably taken in something > > > like $300k in rent over the years, on a purchase > > > price of less than $200k > > > including interest. Market value - you can't buy a > > > house in Vancouver these > > > days for much less than $700k. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:53 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for you > > > > > > > > > > > > A house , family etc is less expensive than simply > > > owning and living > > > aboard a boat? Is this the math skill you use in > > > your designing? > > > Where were you sailing? Are you still in SE asia? It > > > was a beautiful > > > night here, but cold as a bureaucrats conscience. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > House women family all cost money , too expensive > > > for my tastes.Costs > > > > too much cruisin time. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that says I had nothing to do with Mungo > > > II is simply > > > > shooting their > > > > > mouth off without bothering to check the facts. > > > Typical BS. > > > > > > > > > > Mungo II was draw by me while I was offshore in > > > Hawaii sailing, > > > > using the > > > > > plans of the Lazy Bones as a starting point. l > > > programmed a notebook > > > > > computer to solve the origami hull, and sent Ron > > > the drawings and > > > > table of > > > > > offsets for the patterns. Ron transferred this > > > to Autocad and > > > added the > > > > > rigging and cabin details. He then built the > > > hull using the offsets I > > > > > provided. > > > > > > > > > > For me, it is not about how many boats I have to > > > my name, it is about > > > > > getting out sailing. My methods allowed me to go > > > sailing for years > > > > and come > > > > > back relatively well off. In contrast, many of > > > the techniques > > > > promoted on > > > > > this site have resulted in poverty. Someone > > > shoots their mouth off > > > > without > > > > > checking the facts, I wouldn't trust their > > > advice. One only needs > > > > look at > > > > > the person giving advice to see where their > > > advice leads. > > > > > > > > > > I was out sailing last night - were you? > > > Beautiful evening. > > > > Probably one > > > > > of the last of the season. Bunch of friends out > > > on the water, > > > > dinner and > > > > > drinks afterwards reviewing the sailing. This is > > > my interest in > > > > sailing. > > > > > Give up the house, women, family, etc, etc, all > > > to have a boat? No > > > > thanks. > > > > > Much too expensive for my tastes. > > > > > > > > > > Plenty of people build boats for reasons that > > > have nothing to do with > > > > > sailing. My advice is not for those people. My > > > advice is for > > > > people that > > > > > want to go sailing, and see boat building as a > > > way to achieve this. > > > > Boat > > > > > building makes sense as a means to go sailing, > > > when you get the > > > > economics > > > > > right. Otherwise, it is a time consuming > > > exercise that delays > > > > sailing, and > > > > > may well cost you many of the other pleasures of > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:01 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Pearson designed and built the hull with a > > > huge ,full length keel. > > > > > Ken Splett converted it to a twin keeler, welded > > > and detailed it . > > > > > Greg had nothing ot do with it. > > > > > When you have so few boats to your name, you > > > have to fill up your > > > > > site with something. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, lol what's it doing on your site? did > > > you design or help build > > > > > it? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not in the picture. The owner is a > > > professional artist and > > > > likely > > > > > > > designed the bow protector along aesthetic > > > lines. The boat is > > > > > Mungo II. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:05 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > > > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Greg, question for > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a photo off your site of two old guys > > > with two much better > > > > > > > looking (and much younger) women :) standing > > > in front of a steel > > > > boat > > > > > > > under construction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > couple of questions, which one of those guys > > > is > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail > yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14683|14072|2007-10-05 15:33:54|jonathanswef|Eighteen|The pilot house is nearly all welded on the inside. I got bored with my welders which both stopped too soon. I wish I had the old oil cooled 3phase welder I used as a lad; you could work that all day with 3/16" rods...I cut the scuppers for the cockpit well in the transom this afternoon and shaped and welded in the stainless surround and drip. Not quite Evan's standard but they will work. Next puzzle is windows. I fancy emulating Moonflower's. How did Evan make the frames for the glass to be bedded in? If that was angle solidly welded all around I'll be ordering another case of rods! Jonathan.| 14684|14684|2007-10-05 16:11:08|Alex|lifting eyes|My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to favour their own slings. Alex| 14685|14684|2007-10-05 17:41:48|Gerd|Re: lifting eyes|Nice Picture, Alex, it looks like the perfect place for messing around with boats. I am YELLOW AND GREEN with envy !! ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > favour their own slings. > > Alex > | 14686|14684|2007-10-05 17:47:11|Alex|Re: lifting eyes|I know, the place just fell into my lap, a gift from the gods. Wish I owned it! Next door is a welding shop too, though I have assiduously avoided begging for use of any of their equipment. At this point I'm content to have space to work and space to live, unbothered by unreasonable constraints normally imposed on such a venture on rented property! If 9 people come in with 100Kilobucks each, we can create boatbuilding heaven, heheh. The shop is actually big enough, high enough, to build boats INSIDE. What a concept! Three-phase power to the building too. They have kick-ass welding machines inside for doing giant waterworks pipes. Depending on whether I sell the bare hull or the floating 36, rental of this place to live and work could be inherited from me. It's quite amazing here. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Nice Picture, Alex, it looks like the perfect place for messing around > with boats. I am YELLOW AND GREEN with envy !! ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > > favour their own slings. > > > > Alex > > > | 14687|14684|2007-10-05 22:57:30|brentswain38|Re: lifting eyes|We lifted Shinola with them . If she is a little heavy on one end , a comealong from that end over the hook is only very slightly loaded in balancing her. Each one is many times stronger than the weight of the finished boat, and certainly much stronger than the slings. It also eliminates grinding the paint of a freshly painted boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > favour their own slings. > > Alex > | 14688|14072|2007-10-05 22:57:51|brentswain38|Re: Eighteen|He usually uses angle fully welded all around. If I were to do them that way, I'd use stainless angle. You can have them bent from 1/8th inch strips on a brake press. If you get corrosion behind them, or on the corners you will wish you had gone stainless. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > The pilot house is nearly all welded on the inside. I got bored with > my welders which both stopped too soon. I wish I had the old oil > cooled 3phase welder I used as a lad; you could work that all day with > 3/16" rods...I cut the scuppers for the cockpit well in the transom > this afternoon and shaped and welded in the stainless surround and > drip. Not quite Evan's standard but they will work. > > Next puzzle is windows. I fancy emulating Moonflower's. How did Evan > make the frames for the glass to be bedded in? If that was angle > solidly welded all around I'll be ordering another case of rods! > > Jonathan. > | 14689|14684|2007-10-05 22:58:15|Tom|Re: lifting eyes|Hello Alex Yes I lift my 26 from the lifting eyes and it works slick but I lift streight up with 2 chain hoist. Trying to lift with crane from a single point might bend toerails inward and not be good in the end . The only draw back from it is the boat has to be balanced for and aft to lift level, right now my 26 without balast needs about a 100 pound on the for deck to stay level. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] lifting eyes > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > favour their own slings. > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14690|14493|2007-10-05 22:58:57|Michael Casling|Re: Greg, no questions for you|Frankly I am skeptical of anyone who predicts the future. I am also cautious of anyone who has to repeat themselves over and over. The math shown is also fuzzy. There can be many financial plans that work. There is never only one correct answer. It is difficult to figger what you did and when even, though it has been repeated many times. But $200,000- over the same time frame at 7% would have earned more $$ than what you claim. The tax would also be lower. You good also bleed the money back into the system much easier by doing a partial disposition on a monthly basis, rather than a total disposition which could trigger a bunch of tax all at once. Renters these days are not what they used to be. Can we just let your plan quietly fade away, as all have heard it several times. We got the message. Can you leave it to us, to ask if we want to know more?? Just so you know, I am a partial owner of 5 acres 11 km from the main shopping center in Kelowna. We also have renters in the large house. And I have sufficient education on this subject to be able to discuss it for a fee. I just do not want to discuss it here. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > This doesn't begin to consider the increase in property value. It is a > mistake to think increases in property values are a thing of the past. One > of the biggest run-ups in property values in BC has taken place over the > past 5 years. Land goes up in value because it is hard to make new land. > Greg | 14691|10771|2007-10-05 22:59:29|tazmannusa|Re: BS 26 progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Any time you can still see the weld pattern on any steel boat paint, > it aint thick enough. > Brent > > I would emagine that the tar epoxy would be a lot better at hiding imperfections but the original formula had been outlawed here in California, They did come up with one that is VOC compliant but when I asked if it holds up as good as the old, they said it should! If anyone is wondering what I am using, Its Macropoxy 646 from Sherwin Williams, around $42 a gallon and its a 1 to 1 mix. Nice thing is I can buy it local as needed and it has a 1 year recoat time. Been sanding the last couple evnings after work and I think its going to turn out nice, couple more stripe coats on the welds and corners, then it will fair in nicly. Sure glad its a 26 and not the 36 or 40 when it comes to sanding. Tom| 14692|14669|2007-10-05 22:59:41|seeratlas|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Man, If the description is true, one american sailboat, two people, trolling one fishing line and not even planning to stop in BVI...that's amazing. I'll have to agree with some of the posters commenting on the article. I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked drop in tourism to the BVI, and some retaliation in kind from the USVI. .. WARNING!!! IMMINENT RANT ALERT!!! Lasciate ogni speranza voi che entrate!!! You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just quit traveling to/supporting other nations. I think if you do the math, with oil at 80 plus a barrel, the oil shale, coal rendition, and other deposits we have become economically viable, especially nuclear of which we have a tremendous abundance so energy is not a problem. Especially withe the huge deposits being found in the Arctic off Alaska and Canada. Hell, Canada may become one of the richest nations on the planet in the foreseeable future. We can easily build robots to do what cheap chinese labor can do, cutting them off from the US market would turn their whole country upside down, course WalMart will throw a fit, but that's only one country, er company LOL. USVI, Puerto Rico, and those island nations remaining friendly to the US provide ample "Caribbean Experience" opportunities for our yachtsmen, as do the hospitable Cannuck and Mexican coasts, for our Pacific coastal sailors. Hawaii isn't all that bad of a Pacific island destination, and we'll probably always be on good terms with the Brits, Aussies and Kiwis. Hell Castro will be dead soon, and I believe the world will be AMAZED at how quickly all those generations of American hating cubans, will be throwing the welcome mat out for American tourists and investment. Venezuelans seem to desire dictatorship and they will soon have it. Perhaps they will enjoy it. Perhaps not. The American protectorates, or outposts aren't all that bad either. We could hand NATO and its expense over to the Europeans, after all, Russia/China most likely don't have territorial designs on the continental US. Move the United Nations to say Switzerland, and withdraw presence and funding from that increasingly comical asylum for the helpless. Terminate our foreign aid programs except for humanitarian disasters, bring our production and manufacturing needs back home, or re-establish them jointly with the Mexicans and Canadians. Then look around the rest of the world and re-evaluate our relationships on a country by country basis. Just a quick run thru the numbers indicate huge monetary savings, drastic improvement in technological and economic security, all we would really have to do is increase our military r&d to maintain dominance in that area and maintain open international waters, to nip any continental aspirations of some of our enemies, or was it some of our 'friends', or is there a difference....Course the middle east *problem* would soon resolve itself. Since Israel has neither the population nor desire to colonize or subjugate the populations that surround them, most likely they'd be forced to turn the surrounding area into a lifeless black glass skating rink which would at least give them some clear fire fields should anyone else decide they need wiping off the map. (on the skating rinks, well that's what thermo nukes do to sand) Anyone that thinks the Israelis are going to go with the Nazi death camp obedience thing again, is seriously mistaken. Those days are over. For we Americans, of course, the major downside would be in the map making field where we'd be revising our maps of the various other countries on a monthly basis as nations were attacked, homologated, or simply destroyed, tho that would no doubt get easier and easier as time went on ...fewer countries to map, and fewer populations to sweat. Yep, sometimes i wonder at the 'heaven on earth' the rest of this planet would be without all us 'god damned americans' mucking about. (oh for those that missed it, or that believe our 'left's version of the *news*, the first parts of Regan's *Star Wars* system now works, and is at least partly implemented as we speak. Assuming we can stay on top of development of that system, it's entirely possible that we will in just a few years be able to pull the old tortose in the shell trick and let the rest of the world have at it, taking out only those who pose a direct threat.) I was not surprised to read a recent transcript of the frustration of one of the leaders of a developing nation over America's failure to participate in the Kyoto treaty. If I understood him right he was screaming about how his country needed the money from the sale of 'pollution or carbon credits' to the US...lol. Maybe we could even start up a for real NEWS network in the US staffed by people who actually know what's going on, instead of trying to control what's going on :) Now wouldn't THAT be something... RANT OVER, sorry, just one of those days seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1505173563/show/1148582 > | 14693|14693|2007-10-05 23:44:17|heretic_37ft|Respect of the Great Boat Builders in the group!|To those who are embattled in nautical philosophy: Build a boat because you want to. Nobody cares about why you want to build the boat? Start a group called "why I want my boat". That would alleviate the headache of trying to get the great advice Brent and others have posted here. Yearn for approval of others elsewhere. Heretic_37| 14694|14694|2007-10-06 05:24:00|renrut5|Aluminum Swain 36 listing|Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in the hands of a broker. Single keel, no interior, $84,900. http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57| 14695|14694|2007-10-06 16:00:20|jfisher@wildblue.net|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|I looked at this boat in March when looking at alex's hull. The guy who built it, builds aluminum boats for a living. He did a round the world trip on another boat he built, sold it and then was building this boat for himself for more offshore sailing. It sounded like his health had deteriorated and could not longer sail off shore. So selling the boat. Nicely detailed and well built. The head room is too low for me, 6'3", but a nice boat even if it is a bit expensive. John > Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. > I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in > the hands of a broker. > > Single keel, no interior, $84,900. > > http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57 > > > > | 14696|14493|2007-10-06 16:00:53|peter_d_wiley|Re: Greg, question for you|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Alex had a hull for sale for $15,000 and now a boat for $26,500. > Quite possibly some people would say that the hull is expensive and > the boat cheap. > > > True, but when was the last time you could by a "Swain 36" for that > price? That is the ONLY one I've seen in that price range in the > last 6-8 YEARS. Most are 3 to 4 times that price. No, there was one in NZ last year at an asking price of $35K USD. This whole discussion is a waste of time as nobody is going to convince anyone. I'm sorta in Greg's camp WRT the value of real estate but definitely NOT when it comes to his snake oil ideas of financing. But then I'm definitely not in Brent's camp either - I own outright 3 properties in Australia including this one and I've built the shed to drool over from a boatbuilding POV - 16 x 13m, 4.3m high, with 3 phase power, storage bays etc, and a complete machine shop. However, the amount I've spent would have bought a few boats outright, so it's a matter of where your comfort level is. I regard boats as holes in the water that depreciate and you buy or build out of disposable income. Brent's is his home. Different POV. Another difference is, I've had jobs for almost all my working life which have been interesting & challenging, a wife, 3 children, and got a lot of time in at sea on someone else's payroll. Not everyone can do that either, so my only conclusion is, you go with what works for you. I've built an asset here which will return me an income when I go sailing, but I've had to defer the gratification to do it. Hasn't been a hardship tho, because I've thoroughly enjoyed building the house & the shed. Today I've been selecting the baulks of timber for a POGO as it looks like I'm going to start one just because I can. I reckon, FWIW, that I can build a 36' boat for around $40K with galv rigging and a fair amount of scrounging, and the only way it'd take me 3 years is if I did it while holding down a full-time job. PDW| 14697|14697|2007-10-06 16:01:12|drddias|ABRACADABRA|Seer, Brent, Thank you for your replies, I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics for building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that so?) There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in your minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the hulls together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the boat. But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters that will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will find a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel plate or cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots of it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to design your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal profile and the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As for this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might consider that it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, thought, the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that part of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they just result). To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are the only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths involved in it) Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers do only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so easy and it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on volums and momments, form coeficients and stability. thanks again eduardo| 14698|14072|2007-10-06 16:01:25|Carl Anderson|Re: Eighteen|I found the building info on the recessed window frames on the MBS web site in the forum and had Evan follow that procedure. The fellow there did a refit in a steel pilothouse and it turned out looking very good so I was trying to emulate that throughout my boat. Maybe took a little more time but in the end made all the round corners come out looking great. I must have over 50 photos dealing with window construction in Moonflower of Moab. Stainless is a great material for use on everything in the detailing. Only drawback is the price which I have heard is now pushing $3.20/pound at the scrap yards on Vancouver Island. Also the availability in Canada has diminished greatly. I was lucky in finding what I did in Canada and was blessed by having one of the largest non-ferrous scrap yards in the western US located right here in Utah (but trucking it to Vancouver Island isn't cheap either!) Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com brentswain38 wrote: > > > He usually uses angle fully welded all around. If I were to do them > that way, I'd use stainless angle. You can have them bent from 1/8th > inch strips on a brake press. If you get corrosion behind them, or on > the corners you will wish you had gone stainless. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jonathanswef" > wrote: > > > > The pilot house is nearly all welded on the inside. I got bored with > > my welders which both stopped too soon. I wish I had the old oil > > cooled 3phase welder I used as a lad; you could work that all day with > > 3/16" rods...I cut the scuppers for the cockpit well in the transom > > this afternoon and shaped and welded in the stainless surround and > > drip. Not quite Evan's standard but they will work. > > > > Next puzzle is windows. I fancy emulating Moonflower's. How did Evan > > make the frames for the glass to be bedded in? If that was angle > > solidly welded all around I'll be ordering another case of rods! > > > > Jonathan. > > > > | 14699|14699|2007-10-06 16:01:28|loosemoosefilmworks|Where to buy Brent's book?|Pretty much says it all...| 14700|14694|2007-10-06 16:01:36|audeojude|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|being aluminum it might get a fair bit of money bare hull. However not that much... I have been looking at steel boats for sale on yachtworld and people are having problems practicaly giving them away. for that much money you can get a 40 ft steel ocean going yacht in decent shape with all the systems up to and including nice radar and electronics.. decked out and recently refurbished. pretty much ready to sail away. Not looking to start a its worth it or isn't worth it discussion.. reality is that the economy is is sucking and used boat prices are dropping in general. Steel over here is unpopular which is silly but true. so the price of steel boats is very depressed.Actually if you search the whole world for listing or steel boats there are a lot of really really good buys everywhere.. some fixer uppers and some just sail away. I have to wonder if economically the people who typically tend to own boats in the 35 to 50 ft range are not hurting financially in a lot of places. not many being built and sold new and lot of used one on the market world wide. Though the us is becoming a shopping place for used boats from the rest of the world. my 1987 beneteau F235 that sold for 20 grand new in 1987 is worth 25 to 35 thousand US dollars right now in EU or Australia. Here in US 3 years ago it was worth about 7 grand now I can sell it for 10 to 14 grand. Smaller used boats the prices are rising if they are well built as people are moving out of the bigger boats. This is my opinion and it and 1.50 will get you a cup of coffee -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. > I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in > the hands of a broker. > > Single keel, no interior, $84,900. > > http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57 > | 14701|14684|2007-10-06 16:01:45|mauro gonzaga|Re: lifting eyes|My steel 33fter displaces 8 tons and has four stainless steel eyes (lugs): one each corner of the coachroof. It works perfect. Mauro brentswain38 wrote: We lifted Shinola with them . If she is a little heavy on one end , a comealong from that end over the hook is only very slightly loaded in balancing her. Each one is many times stronger than the weight of the finished boat, and certainly much stronger than the slings. It also eliminates grinding the paint of a freshly painted boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > favour their own slings. > > Alex > --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14702|14702|2007-10-06 16:01:47|Wally Paine|Cutting synthetic rope.|Hello All, I've been using a 100 W soldering iron with a wire loop tip to cut and seal synthetic rope in one operation. It has worked well and beats using a knife and spirit lamp when you have a lot to do. It is much cheaper (at least in the UK) than the dedicated hot wire cutters available. Wally Paine ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html| 14703|10771|2007-10-06 16:04:59|mickeyolaf|Re: BS 26 progress|I used Sherwin Williams "Tile Clad 2" two part epoxy paint on a strip planked epoxy glassed sailboat hull I built years ago. The SW paint stood up really well. Still excellent after 10 years. It came with a red high build primer that was easily sandable and then two coats of the paint rolled on and tipped off looked really good. Looky Loo's thought the boat was fiberglass built from a mold. I would use SW paint again. Everyone says two part epoxies oxidize but I never had any chalking with SW paint. I waxed it with marine polish a couple of times. I couldn't buy it in Canada and had to go to Bellingham, WA. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Any time you can still see the weld pattern on any steel boat paint, > > it aint thick enough. > > Brent > > > > > I would emagine that the tar epoxy would be a lot better at hiding > imperfections but the original formula had been outlawed here in > California, They did come up with one that is VOC compliant but when I > asked if it holds up as good as the old, they said it should! > If anyone is wondering what I am using, Its Macropoxy 646 from > Sherwin Williams, around $42 a gallon and its a 1 to 1 mix. Nice thing > is I can buy it local as needed and it has a 1 year recoat time. > Been sanding the last couple evnings after work and I think its going > to turn out nice, couple more stripe coats on the welds and corners, > then it will fair in nicly. Sure glad its a 26 and not the 36 or 40 > when it comes to sanding. > Tom > | 14704|14702|2007-10-06 17:35:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: Cutting synthetic rope.|On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:56:11PM +0100, Wally Paine wrote: > Hello All, > > I've been using a 100 W soldering iron with a wire > loop tip to cut and seal synthetic rope in one > operation. It has worked well and beats using a knife > and spirit lamp when you have a lot to do. > > It is much cheaper (at least in the UK) than the > dedicated hot wire cutters available. Conversely, if you want to go with Brent's philosophy of "scrounge where you can", get some nichrome wire (it's the heating element in electric heaters). Fold and twist up a bunch of strands until you've got a solid rod of the stuff, and attach it to one car battery terminal so it just hangs over the other one, like so: _______ o------- M M ------------------- | | | | | | Pressing down on the wire with a piece of nylon line (at a right angle, of course) should do the job quite well - and for free (assuming you've got a car with a working battery, and found a heater at the dump. :) You might want to lay a piece of steel under the wire so it doesn't melt the battery casing - but that's getting _really_ fancy. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14705|14697|2007-10-06 17:35:35|Gerd|Re: ABRACADABRA|Eduardo, although you are right as to the design process of the origami hull which is composed from fully developable surfaces, on the finished boat you will indeed have double curvature on the "real thing", due to the material and tesion induced during folding. On my hull, especially on the area forward and aft of the dart, you will not find any point where you can place a straight rule in any direction, there is quite a lot of compound curvature there. That is one of the nice side effects of the method. Also gives the panel tension and additional elastic strength. Actually, as I have built a couple of "classic" hard chine hulls before that, from steel where all surfaces were built from large flat panels only, the resulting hull did still show a certain amout of compound curvature, depending on the design. This is often the case near the forefoot where the bottom banels bend and at the same time twist. Can be a real PIA to plate too ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Seer, Brent, > Thank you for your replies, > I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics for > building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that so?) > There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in your > minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the hulls > together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the boat. > But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters that > will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble > curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the > surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will find > a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel plate or > cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots of > it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to design > your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal profile and > the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As for > this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might consider that > it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't > notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, thought, > the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that part > of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they just > result). > To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are the > only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the > construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths > involved in it) > Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers do > only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with > autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so easy and > it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on volums > and momments, form coeficients and stability. > thanks again > eduardo > | 14706|14694|2007-10-06 21:42:53|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|Friends in Mexico started looking for steel boats while working their way north. Down there they were rare and became increasingly common as they worked thair way north. In California they were extremely rare , in Oregon more common , in Washington far more common and in BC plenty. It probably as a lot to do with the logs and fogs here. I'm still seling plans to people who intend to build 36 footers themselves , people who would be far ahead by buying Alex's hull and be launched in a couple of weeks for less than the cost of material , and far les than the cost of material and time. Alex's boat is not just a bare hull. It's hull ,keels,rudder, skeg, decks,cabin, cockpit,coamings , handrails , hatches, hinges, engine cooling,chimney,intake vent , air vents, pulpit, pushpit,lifelines,mooring bits, chocks, winch bases, water catchment ,cleats etc etc. When you buy a bare fibreglass hull you have to go out and buy all that stuff, plus the bolts and caulking to bolt them down, then do the work of bolting them down. Cleats of the same type cost $40 each plus the bolts bedding and time. That is why a steel hull to the stage of Alex's is a much bigger portion of a finished boat than it would be if it were a bare fibreglass hull.Even scrounging the materials to do all that detail is a huge amount of time and expense, never mind putting it all together.Arranging building site and stel delivery is also a lot of hassle, which is already done in this case. This is not a steel hull many years old in which one has to wonder how it's put together or it's condition. It's brand new steel.You can see every inch and finish it any way you want to, making it a custom boat. Any one thinking of building a 36 would be a complete fool not to buy Alex's boat instead, unless they want to do a project for it's own sake. I'd rather spend that time cruising , earlier. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > being aluminum it might get a fair bit of money bare hull. > > However not that much... > > I have been looking at steel boats for sale on yachtworld and people > are having problems practicaly giving them away. > > for that much money you can get a 40 ft steel ocean going yacht in > decent shape with all the systems up to and including nice radar and > electronics.. decked out and recently refurbished. pretty much ready > to sail away. > > Not looking to start a its worth it or isn't worth it discussion.. > reality is that the economy is is sucking and used boat prices are > dropping in general. Steel over here is unpopular which is silly but > true. so the price of steel boats is very depressed.Actually if you > search the whole world for listing or steel boats there are a lot of > really really good buys everywhere.. some fixer uppers and some just > sail away. I have to wonder if economically the people who typically > tend to own boats in the 35 to 50 ft range are not hurting financially > in a lot of places. not many being built and sold new and lot of used > one on the market world wide. > > Though the us is becoming a shopping place for used boats from the > rest of the world. my 1987 beneteau F235 that sold for 20 grand new in > 1987 is worth 25 to 35 thousand US dollars right now in EU or > Australia. Here in US 3 years ago it was worth about 7 grand now I can > sell it for 10 to 14 grand. > > Smaller used boats the prices are rising if they are well built as > people are moving out of the bigger boats. > > This is my opinion and it and 1.50 will get you a cup of coffee > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > > > Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. > > I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in > > the hands of a broker. > > > > Single keel, no interior, $84,900. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57 > > > | 14707|14669|2007-10-06 21:43:18|brentswain38|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|A frenchman in Tahiti once told me that when a caribean island gets out of whack thta way, the cruisers do a total boycott of the place and the tourism industry takes a big hit, as other islands there are just a day sail away. They get a quick economic education on what cruisers will tolerate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Man, > > If the description is true, one american sailboat, two people, > trolling one fishing line and not even planning to stop in > BVI...that's amazing. I'll have to agree with some of the posters > commenting on the article. I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked > drop in tourism to the BVI, and some retaliation in kind from the USVI. > > .. WARNING!!! IMMINENT RANT ALERT!!! Lasciate ogni speranza voi che > entrate!!! > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. I think if you do the > math, with oil at 80 plus a barrel, the oil shale, coal rendition, and > other deposits we have become economically viable, especially nuclear > of which we have a tremendous abundance so energy is not a problem. > Especially withe the huge deposits being found in the Arctic off > Alaska and Canada. Hell, Canada may become one of the richest nations > on the planet in the foreseeable future. We can easily build robots > to do what cheap chinese labor can do, cutting them off from the US > market would turn their whole country upside down, course WalMart will > throw a fit, but that's only one country, er company LOL. USVI, > Puerto Rico, and those island nations remaining friendly to the US > provide ample "Caribbean Experience" opportunities for our yachtsmen, > as do the hospitable Cannuck and Mexican coasts, for our Pacific > coastal sailors. Hawaii isn't all that bad of a Pacific island > destination, and we'll probably always be on good terms with the > Brits, Aussies and Kiwis. Hell Castro will be dead soon, and I > believe the world will be AMAZED at how quickly all those generations > of American hating cubans, will be throwing the welcome mat out for > American tourists and investment. Venezuelans seem to desire > dictatorship and they will soon have it. Perhaps they will enjoy it. > Perhaps not. > > The American protectorates, or outposts aren't all that bad either. > We could hand NATO and its expense over to the Europeans, after all, > Russia/China most likely don't have territorial designs on the > continental US. Move the United Nations to say Switzerland, and > withdraw presence and funding from that increasingly comical asylum > for the helpless. Terminate our foreign aid programs except for > humanitarian disasters, bring our production and manufacturing needs > back home, or re-establish them jointly with the Mexicans and > Canadians. Then look around the rest of the world and re-evaluate our > relationships on a country by country basis. Just a quick run thru > the numbers indicate huge monetary savings, drastic improvement in > technological and economic security, all we would really have to do is > increase our military r&d to maintain dominance in that area and > maintain open international waters, to nip any continental aspirations > of some of our enemies, or was it some of our 'friends', or is there a > difference....Course the middle east *problem* would soon resolve > itself. Since Israel has neither the population nor desire to colonize > or subjugate the populations that surround them, most likely they'd > be forced to turn the surrounding area into a lifeless black glass > skating rink which would at least give them some clear fire fields > should anyone else decide they need wiping off the map. (on the > skating rinks, well that's what thermo nukes do to sand) Anyone that > thinks the Israelis are going to go with the Nazi death camp obedience > thing again, is seriously mistaken. Those days are over. > > For we Americans, of course, the major downside would be in the map > making field where we'd be revising our maps of the various other > countries on a monthly basis as nations were attacked, homologated, or > simply destroyed, tho that would no doubt get easier and easier as > time went on ...fewer countries to map, and fewer populations to sweat. > > Yep, sometimes i wonder at the 'heaven on earth' the rest of this > planet would be without all us 'god damned americans' mucking about. > > (oh for those that missed it, or that believe our 'left's version of > the *news*, the first parts of Regan's *Star Wars* system now works, > and is at least partly implemented as we speak. Assuming we can stay > on top of development of that system, it's entirely possible that we > will in just a few years be able to pull the old tortose in the shell > trick and let the rest of the world have at it, taking out only those > who pose a direct threat.) > > I was not surprised to read a recent transcript of the frustration of > one of the leaders of a developing nation over America's failure to > participate in the Kyoto treaty. If I understood him right he was > screaming about how his country needed the money from the sale of > 'pollution or carbon credits' to the US...lol. Maybe we could even > start up a for real NEWS network in the US staffed by people who > actually know what's going on, instead of trying to control what's > going on :) Now wouldn't THAT be something... > > RANT OVER, sorry, just one of those days > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1505173563/show/1148582 > > > | 14708|14694|2007-10-06 21:43:45|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|He had it in his backyard a long time while he was distracted building up his business. The moral of the story is don't put off cruising too long ,on the assumption that you are going to be healthy forever. This is an all too common story. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jfisher@... wrote: > > I looked at this boat in March when looking at alex's hull. The guy who > built it, builds aluminum boats for a living. He did a round the world > trip on another boat he built, sold it and then was building this boat for > himself for more offshore sailing. It sounded like his health had > deteriorated and could not longer sail off shore. So selling the boat. > Nicely detailed and well built. The head room is too low for me, 6'3", > but a nice boat even if it is a bit expensive. > > John > > > Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. > > I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in > > the hands of a broker. > > > > Single keel, no interior, $84,900. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57 > > > > > > > > > | 14709|14694|2007-10-06 21:43:58|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|The bare aluminium delivered ,laying on the ground, cost him $20,000 , back when it was much cheaper. It's probaly double that now.Anyone planning to build an aluminium 36 from scratch will have far more than his asking price into it.He has a lot of hours into her and the expertise of many years of aluminium fabricating ,plus that of a circumnavigation. All that don't come cheap. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > being aluminum it might get a fair bit of money bare hull. > > However not that much... > > I have been looking at steel boats for sale on yachtworld and people > are having problems practicaly giving them away. > > for that much money you can get a 40 ft steel ocean going yacht in > decent shape with all the systems up to and including nice radar and > electronics.. decked out and recently refurbished. pretty much ready > to sail away. > > Not looking to start a its worth it or isn't worth it discussion.. > reality is that the economy is is sucking and used boat prices are > dropping in general. Steel over here is unpopular which is silly but > true. so the price of steel boats is very depressed.Actually if you > search the whole world for listing or steel boats there are a lot of > really really good buys everywhere.. some fixer uppers and some just > sail away. I have to wonder if economically the people who typically > tend to own boats in the 35 to 50 ft range are not hurting financially > in a lot of places. not many being built and sold new and lot of used > one on the market world wide. > > Though the us is becoming a shopping place for used boats from the > rest of the world. my 1987 beneteau F235 that sold for 20 grand new in > 1987 is worth 25 to 35 thousand US dollars right now in EU or > Australia. Here in US 3 years ago it was worth about 7 grand now I can > sell it for 10 to 14 grand. > > Smaller used boats the prices are rising if they are well built as > people are moving out of the bigger boats. > > This is my opinion and it and 1.50 will get you a cup of coffee > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > > > Another listing (yachtworld.com) I happened upon. > > I saw this one listed privately last year and now it appears to be in > > the hands of a broker. > > > > Single keel, no interior, $84,900. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2gmd57 > > > | 14710|14697|2007-10-06 21:44:13|brentswain38|Re: ABRACADABRA|Cutting and welding shrinkages along the edges of plates tends to create an outward compound curve on the topsides amidships. This is why origami construction is far more forgiving of welding shrinkage. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Eduardo, although you are right as to the design process of the > origami hull which is composed from fully developable surfaces, on > the finished boat you will indeed have double curvature on the "real > thing", due to the material and tesion induced during folding. On my > hull, especially on the area forward and aft of the dart, you will > not find any point where you can place a straight rule in any > direction, there is quite a lot of compound curvature there. That is > one of the nice side effects of the method. Also gives the panel > tension and additional elastic strength. > > Actually, as I have built a couple of "classic" hard chine hulls > before that, from steel where all surfaces were built from large flat > panels only, the resulting hull did still show a certain amout of > compound curvature, depending on the design. This is often the case > near the forefoot where the bottom banels bend and at the same time > twist. Can be a real PIA to plate too ;-) > > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Seer, Brent, > > Thank you for your replies, > > I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics for > > building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that so?) > > There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in > your > > minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the > hulls > > together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the boat. > > But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters > that > > will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble > > curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the > > surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will > find > > a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel plate > or > > cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots > of > > it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to > design > > your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal profile > and > > the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As > for > > this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might consider > that > > it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't > > notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, > thought, > > the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that > part > > of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they > just > > result). > > To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are the > > only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the > > construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths > > involved in it) > > Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers do > > only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with > > autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so easy > and > > it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on volums > > and momments, form coeficients and stability. > > thanks again > > eduardo > > > | 14711|14699|2007-10-06 21:44:32|brentswain38|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|To buy my book, please send $20 plus $5 for postage in Canada, $7 for postage to the US , or $12 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston, BC, Canada, V0R2V0 Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" wrote: > > Pretty much says it all... > | 14712|14684|2007-10-06 21:44:33|seeratlas|Re: lifting eyes|I saw a big steel Jongert once in europe being pulled up by a center ring near where the mast was stepped. That seemed to take most of the weight but there were perimeter rings at both ends and at the beams also, presumbably to steady it. Everything else I've ever seen was slinged or pulled in a cradle. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > favour their own slings. > > Alex > | 14713|14684|2007-10-06 21:45:31|brentswain38|Re: lifting eyes|On the 36 you'd break the slings before you'd bend the rails , as long as the slings were long.The longer the slings the less the inward pressure. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Alex > Yes I lift my 26 from the lifting eyes and it works slick but I lift > streight up with 2 chain hoist. Trying to lift with crane from a single > point might bend toerails inward and not be good in the end . The only draw > back from it is the boat has to be balanced for and aft to lift level, right > now my 26 without balast needs about a 100 pound on the for deck to stay > level. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] lifting eyes > > > > My hull, shown here on the home page getting set down by my building, > > has lifting eyes midships. Has anyone ever lifted a boat with them? I > > am curious how it all works out, as the crane operators always seem to > > favour their own slings. > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14714|14697|2007-10-06 21:45:50|seeratlas|Re: ABRACADABRA|I dunno eduardo...lets say i pull together a brent hull with 2 longitudinals made out of 1" mild steel angle. I'd bet a dollar (even a currently depreciated US dollar :) against a doughnut that if that framing extended the full length of the panel, I'd get a different curve, than if it was only say 8 feet in the middle. Now what about if I set those longitudinals at an angle instead of parallel to the panels, or used 2" angle instead...? I'd get a different curvature again. Further, If you've seen one of these built, as in the video, Brent periodically places bracing to modify the curve to get the hull to conform/deform to the curves he wants, as he pulls the various parts of the hull together- again-as I said, something that would effect the curve. Someone once described this as origami combined with tortured steel boat building. I think that description is more apt. The trick is how to induce the curves where you want them by using bracing, framing, longitudinals and different size and composition bracing, framing and longitudinals. I'm aware of no program that does that easily, at least on and over a whole developed surface. It's why I call this 'art'. I used to play on a high level in the 4x4 off road vehicle arena. Over the years I've had innumerable discussions with the theoreticians who plot and graph and fiddle with their calcs. My closing argument was always, "If you want to build a vehicle to climb a given surface and hill, I'd prefer not to talk to the guys with the calculators at the bottom, but rather spend some time with the guy parked up on top". I've found that a pretty successful strategy in quite a number of fields of endeavor. Don't underestimate the ductility of mild steel plate. As can be seen in Alex's and Brent's video, and has been confirmed to me by Gord, these big panels are pretty squirrelly until the decks are on. If I'm not mistaken, one of the principal reasons Brent uses the origami method without building on an existing frame is to enable as fair a curve as possible across the panels. You can ask him how removing the longitudinals prior to pulling a 36 or 40 or larger together would affect the resultant half hull form... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > Seer, Brent, > Thank you for your replies, > I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics for > building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that so?) > There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in your > minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the hulls > together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the boat. > But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters that > will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble > curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the > surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will find > a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel plate or > cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots of > it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to design > your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal profile and > the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As for > this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might consider that > it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't > notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, thought, > the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that part > of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they just > result). > To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are the > only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the > construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths > involved in it) > Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers do > only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with > autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so easy and > it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on volums > and momments, form coeficients and stability. > thanks again > eduardo > | 14715|14679|2007-10-06 21:46:33|seeratlas|Re: Boatbuilding/design|I clearly agree :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > Seer, > There is a lot to be gained going through the design and modeling > process even if one then uses another's design for the full size boat. > Jonathan. > | 14716|10771|2007-10-06 23:42:32|Tom|Re: BS 26 progress|Hello Mickey Its nice to here others had good luck with sherwin williams paints. Ive thought about just using the epoxy for the finish coat myself, it can be colored to what ever you want. I painted the bottom of my tempest with vc underwater epoxy about 9 years ago and I was told it would chalk but it is still looks the same to me, mabee the color has something to do with it allso. Today I finished sanding and shot another coat on the hull. I will put one more on tomorrow then start finishing up some little things, engine controls, vents, and balast as far as balast Im goin the cheap rout and using scrap steel, lead,and concrete. I cant see paying 40 cent a pound for wheel weights + all the work melting them. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 12:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 progress >I used Sherwin Williams "Tile Clad 2" two part epoxy paint on a strip >planked epoxy > glassed sailboat hull I built years ago. The SW paint stood up really > well. Still excellent > after 10 years. It came with a red high build primer that was easily > sandable and then two > coats of the paint rolled on and tipped off looked really good. Looky > Loo's thought the > boat was fiberglass built from a mold. > I would use SW paint again. Everyone says two part epoxies oxidize but I > never had any > chalking with SW paint. I waxed it with marine polish a couple of times. > I couldn't buy it in Canada and had to go to Bellingham, WA. > | 14717|14493|2007-10-06 23:42:41|Phil S.|Re: Greg, question for you|Greg, We met a few years ago, I like your some of your design ideas. I am really sick of hearing you repeat the same crap over and over though. You were lucky, you happened to have owned rental property in an area of sky rocketing property values. Much of which was due to the Canadian Govt. selling citizenship to Hong Kong expatriates, who then settled into the Vancouver community. Vancouver is also a beautiful city, wouldn’t mind living there myself, if dinky houses on postage stamp lots didn’t sell for 5 times what I paid for my farm land and what it cost to build my house. If you had bought a house and rented it in say, Nova Scotia, you would be singing a different tune. Your fortunes would have been much different but for a change in a government policy. So please stop crowing like your some kind of financial genius, you were lucky, that’s all. From your posts you also lied about your credentials to foreign governments (schools) to earn a living, not very honest or moral. I see the huge difference between your philosophy and Brent's. Brent seems to want others to enjoy a life they chose. He, for a modest fee will enable folks to follow their dreams of building their own boat and sailing off with out the shackles of the consumeristic society. While you seek to earn a living, off of other peoples skill and labor, from building origami style boats. This particular forum is more geared to guys that want to build their own boats, not get sucked into paying you to do it. By all means you have a right to earn a living anyway you chose, boat building, writing software, … what ever. If you have something technical to contribute, by all means please do, just get rid of the stand on your soap box holier than everyone attitude please. Regards Phil| 14718|14718|2007-10-07 05:19:55|Mario Jorge Andrade|What happened to "Origamiboats II"?|Hello I recently noticed that Origamiboats II, the repository group, wasn´t anymore in my groups list. I could not find it in Yahoogroups search, either. What Happened there? I was looking for Tom´s new pics... TIA []´s Mario Jorge Andrade Recife - Brazil [Moderator Alex: Sorry Mario, I deleted that group a day ago; since Yahoo now has no limit on photo storage I didn't realize anyone was even using it any more. Apologies to anyone counting on it...I was trying to clean house]| 14719|10771|2007-10-07 05:20:02|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 progress|I would SERIOUSLY investigate with the manufacturer of any epoxy you want to use as a final coat. Unless they've specifically done something different, epoxies *generally* suffer horribly from prolonged exposure to UV. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Mickey > Its nice to here others had good luck with sherwin williams paints. Ive > thought about just using the epoxy for the finish coat myself, it can be > colored to what ever you want. I painted the bottom of my tempest with vc > underwater epoxy about 9 years ago and I was told it would chalk but it is > still looks the same to me, mabee the color has something to do with it > allso. > Today I finished sanding and shot another coat on the hull. I will put one > more on tomorrow then start finishing up some little things, engine > controls, vents, and balast as far as balast Im goin the cheap rout and > using scrap steel, lead,and concrete. I cant see paying 40 cent a pound for > wheel weights + all the work melting them. > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 12:32 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 progress > > > >I used Sherwin Williams "Tile Clad 2" two part epoxy paint on a strip > >planked epoxy > > glassed sailboat hull I built years ago. The SW paint stood up really > > well. Still excellent > > after 10 years. It came with a red high build primer that was easily > > sandable and then two > > coats of the paint rolled on and tipped off looked really good. Looky > > Loo's thought the > > boat was fiberglass built from a mold. > > I would use SW paint again. Everyone says two part epoxies oxidize but I > > never had any > > chalking with SW paint. I waxed it with marine polish a couple of times. > > I couldn't buy it in Canada and had to go to Bellingham, WA. > > > | 14720|14669|2007-10-07 15:49:41|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|[Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind of off subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would probably become a better place and a safer place (even for Americans) if the US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first strike and strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the US has created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the last one is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because there are other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay with the boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor). (I do not expect a reply or comment) Knut F Garshol ___ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14721|14721|2007-10-07 15:51:42|Tom|origamiboats2 photo album|Hello Alex Did you save the photo albums? and are you planing on moving them. Lot of past post reference them. Tom [Sorry Tom, I wasn't thinking clearly about that, and they are gone. My mistake. I hope we can rebuild them in the current group. My apologies to those who were still referring to them -- Alex]| 14722|14697|2007-10-07 15:53:12|drddias|Re: ABRACADABRA|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I dunno eduardo...lets say i pull together a brent hull with 2 > longitudinals made out of 1" mild steel angle. I'd bet a dollar (even > a currently depreciated US dollar :) against a doughnut that if that > framing extended the full length of the panel, I'd get a different > curve, than if it was only say 8 feet in the middle. Now what about if > I set those longitudinals at an angle instead of parallel to the > panels, or used 2" angle instead...? I'd get a different curvature > again. Further, If you've seen one of these built, as in the video, > Brent periodically places bracing to modify the curve to get the hull > to conform/deform to the curves he wants, as he pulls the various > parts of the hull together- again-as I said, something that would > effect the curve. > > Someone once described this as origami combined with tortured steel > boat building. I think that description is more apt. The trick is how > to induce the curves where you want them by using bracing, framing, > longitudinals and different size and composition bracing, framing and > longitudinals. I'm aware of no program that does that easily, at least > on and over a whole developed surface. It's why I call this 'art'. > > I used to play on a high level in the 4x4 off road vehicle arena. Over > the years I've had innumerable discussions with the theoreticians who > plot and graph and fiddle with their calcs. My closing argument was > always, "If you want to build a vehicle to climb a given surface and > hill, I'd prefer not to talk to the guys with the calculators at the > bottom, but rather spend some time with the guy parked up on top". > > I've found that a pretty successful strategy in quite a number of > fields of endeavor. > > Don't underestimate the ductility of mild steel plate. As can be seen > in Alex's and Brent's video, and has been confirmed to me by Gord, > these big panels are pretty squirrelly until the decks are on. If I'm > not mistaken, one of the principal reasons Brent uses the origami > method without building on an existing frame is to enable as fair a > curve as possible across the panels. You can ask him how removing the > longitudinals prior to pulling a 36 or 40 or larger together would > affect the resultant half hull form... > > seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > Seer, Brent, > > Thank you for your replies, > > I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics for > > building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that so?) > > There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in your > > minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the hulls > > together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the boat. > > But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters that > > will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble > > curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the > > surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will find > > a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel plate or > > cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots of > > it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to design > > your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal profile and > > the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As for > > this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might consider that > > it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't > > notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, thought, > > the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that part > > of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they just > > result). > > To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are the > > only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the > > construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths > > involved in it) > > Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers do > > only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with > > autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so easy and > > it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on volums > > and momments, form coeficients and stability. > > thanks again > > eduardo > > > I give up Seer, thats not fair. I would pay for a donut more than 75cts of an euro, and you would pay less than 25 cents of a dollar, I supose. I would always loose. But, You must dont confound "local" dimensional changes that are consequences of the heat of cutting and welding, and reflect his efects localy, with the global deformation. If you mesure the lenght of the plate before and after the bending, you will se that there is no diference at all, in any direction. (using reiforcements, will pull the neutral axis of the seccion towards the renforcement seccion (outside the plate seccion), thow making the steel plate work only on traction, therefore at the end you will have an elastic deformation, with the consequent stretch of the material, (which is predictable and mesurable). As per reinforcements, they are used to inprove resistance modulus of the plates to be bent, in order to facilitate the bending of long curvature radious, (in long elements,) they just facilitate the process of bending. This efects efectively produces doble curvature, a few milimeters, which are irrelevant in the project. They are irrelevant in the shape of the boats, not eaven noticiable, are a coulateral efect. And no Gerd, find a streight ruller, and you will find the rabbit! Mr Swain, faster then his shadow, as usual. eduardo| 14723|14723|2007-10-07 15:53:30|drddias|epoxi|May anybody tell m if I can use epoxy (paint or sesin) on top of oxid iron paint, in wet surfaces? My plates have been sand blasted and painted with that, prior to construction. And I have no experience at all with epoxy. Also is epoxy tar (coaltar) efectif in inboard not acessible compartments? Thank you eduardo| 14724|10771|2007-10-07 15:53:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 26 progress|On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 07:12:05PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > Its nice to here others had good luck with sherwin williams paints. A local sailor and welder, Gary, used "cheap SW epoxy", as he calls it, it on his hull - which lay in a marina that dries out at low tide. His paint got more of a beating than most ever do, for years, and it still looks pretty good. I'm convinced. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14725|14694|2007-10-07 15:54:27|audeojude|Re: Aluminum Swain 36 listing|my comments were more a comentary on the economy than on this boat... actually the metal work on it as seen in the pictures and the attention to detail were beautiful. Just looking at the cockpit area was an eye opener.. just beautiful. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The bare aluminium delivered ,laying on the ground, cost him $20,000 , > back when it was much cheaper. It's probaly double that now.Anyone > planning to build an aluminium 36 from scratch will have far more > than his asking price into it.He has a lot of hours into her and the > expertise of many years of aluminium fabricating ,plus that of a > circumnavigation. > All that don't come cheap. > Brent > > | 14726|10771|2007-10-07 15:54:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 26 progress|On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 05:09:18AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I would SERIOUSLY investigate with the manufacturer of any epoxy you > want to use as a final coat. Unless they've specifically done > something different, epoxies *generally* suffer horribly from > prolonged exposure to UV. My default assumption with epoxy is that you always overcoat it with a urethane paint of some kind for UV protection - although right now, I'm trying out the one-part epoxy that was mentioned on this list a while ago ("Top Secret" epoxy), which in theory doesn't need a topcoat or a primer. No real report so far, except that the stuff goes on well, tacks off in a couple of hours, and takes about a week to get completely dry. I'll write it up when I've had some more experience with it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14727|14669|2007-10-07 15:55:51|aguysailing|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Rants breed rants…so here goes. By the way, I am not in total disagreement with a little bit of (non origami) salsa on the site as Brent and others have suggested. Seer, who would disagree with your original indignation about a simple cruising boat meeting with obstinate bureaucracy? However, the rest of the post has volleyed into a political zone dealing with US global largesse. I am sure all referenced in your rant would bid the empire a fond farewell. But why such a paltry limitation for withdrawal? To get really serious let's consider this except from "Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Empire" Chalmers Johnson The total of America's military bases in other people's countries in 2005, according to Pentagon sources, was 737."…. The worldwide total of U.S. military personnel in 2005, including those based domestically, was 1,840,062 supported by an additional 473,306 Defense Department civil service employees and 203,328 local hires. "These numbers, although staggeringly big, do not begin to cover all the actual bases we occupy globally." If there were an honest count, the actual size of our military empire would probably top 1,000 different bases overseas, but no one -- possibly not even the Pentagon -- knows the exact number for sure. The U.S. government tries not to divulge any information about the bases we use to eavesdrop on global communications, or our nuclear deployments, which, as William Arkin, an authority on the subject, writes, "[have] violated its treaty obligations. The U.S. was lying to many of its closest allies, even in NATO, about its nuclear designs. Tens of thousands of nuclear weapons, hundreds of bases, and dozens of ships and submarines exist in a special secret world of their own with no rational military or even 'deterrence' justification." (end) This is the trillion dollar business of militarism passed off as "spreading democracy". There is just too little left to plunder within the USA for any shard of hope that Seer rant could mercifully come true. By the way, Canadians do not want to be the richest nation on earth in terms of GNP as federal election polls show environment to be the No 1 priority not exploitation of oil resources or diversion of entire river systems fresh water to south of the 49th . If we want a hope, let it be that humans tone down the party, de- populate and preserve what is left worth cruising to. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Man, > > If the description is true, one american sailboat, two people, > trolling one fishing line and not even planning to stop in > BVI...that's amazing. I'll have to agree with some of the posters > commenting on the article. I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked > drop in tourism to the BVI, and some retaliation in kind from the USVI. > > .. WARNING!!! IMMINENT RANT ALERT!!! Lasciate ogni speranza voi che > entrate!!! > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. I think if you do the > math, with oil at 80 plus a barrel, the oil shale, coal rendition, and > other deposits we have become economically viable, especially nuclear > of which we have a tremendous abundance so energy is not a problem. > Especially withe the huge deposits being found in the Arctic off > Alaska and Canada. Hell, Canada may become one of the richest nations > on the planet in the foreseeable future. We can easily build robots > to do what cheap chinese labor can do, cutting them off from the US > market would turn their whole country upside down, course WalMart will > throw a fit, but that's only one country, er company LOL. USVI, > Puerto Rico, and those island nations remaining friendly to the US > provide ample "Caribbean Experience" opportunities for our yachtsmen, > as do the hospitable Cannuck and Mexican coasts, for our Pacific > coastal sailors. Hawaii isn't all that bad of a Pacific island > destination, and we'll probably always be on good terms with the > Brits, Aussies and Kiwis. Hell Castro will be dead soon, and I > believe the world will be AMAZED at how quickly all those generations > of American hating cubans, will be throwing the welcome mat out for > American tourists and investment. Venezuelans seem to desire > dictatorship and they will soon have it. Perhaps they will enjoy it. > Perhaps not. > > The American protectorates, or outposts aren't all that bad either. > We could hand NATO and its expense over to the Europeans, after all, > Russia/China most likely don't have territorial designs on the > continental US. Move the United Nations to say Switzerland, and > withdraw presence and funding from that increasingly comical asylum > for the helpless. Terminate our foreign aid programs except for > humanitarian disasters, bring our production and manufacturing needs > back home, or re-establish them jointly with the Mexicans and > Canadians. Then look around the rest of the world and re-evaluate our > relationships on a country by country basis. Just a quick run thru > the numbers indicate huge monetary savings, drastic improvement in > technological and economic security, all we would really have to do is > increase our military r&d to maintain dominance in that area and > maintain open international waters, to nip any continental aspirations > of some of our enemies, or was it some of our 'friends', or is there a > difference....Course the middle east *problem* would soon resolve > itself. Since Israel has neither the population nor desire to colonize > or subjugate the populations that surround them, most likely they'd > be forced to turn the surrounding area into a lifeless black glass > skating rink which would at least give them some clear fire fields > should anyone else decide they need wiping off the map. (on the > skating rinks, well that's what thermo nukes do to sand) Anyone that > thinks the Israelis are going to go with the Nazi death camp obedience > thing again, is seriously mistaken. Those days are over. > > For we Americans, of course, the major downside would be in the map > making field where we'd be revising our maps of the various other > countries on a monthly basis as nations were attacked, homologated, or > simply destroyed, tho that would no doubt get easier and easier as > time went on ...fewer countries to map, and fewer populations to sweat. > > Yep, sometimes i wonder at the 'heaven on earth' the rest of this > planet would be without all us 'god damned americans' mucking about. > > (oh for those that missed it, or that believe our 'left's version of > the *news*, the first parts of Regan's *Star Wars* system now works, > and is at least partly implemented as we speak. Assuming we can stay > on top of development of that system, it's entirely possible that we > will in just a few years be able to pull the old tortose in the shell > trick and let the rest of the world have at it, taking out only those > who pose a direct threat.) > > I was not surprised to read a recent transcript of the frustration of > one of the leaders of a developing nation over America's failure to > participate in the Kyoto treaty. If I understood him right he was > screaming about how his country needed the money from the sale of > 'pollution or carbon credits' to the US...lol. Maybe we could even > start up a for real NEWS network in the US staffed by people who > actually know what's going on, instead of trying to control what's > going on :) Now wouldn't THAT be something... > > RANT OVER, sorry, just one of those days > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1505173563/show/1148582 > > > | 14728|14721|2007-10-07 16:24:11|tazmannusa|Re: origamiboats2 photo album|Ok Alex I still have the photos in my puter. I will work on getting them here in the photos Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Alex > Did you save the photo albums? and are you planing on moving them. > Lot of past post reference them. > Tom > > [Sorry Tom, I wasn't thinking clearly about that, and they are gone. My mistake. I hope we can rebuild them in the current group. My apologies to those who were still referring to them -- Alex] > | 14729|14729|2007-10-07 20:02:59|karstensiepmann|Brent's book to Germany|Hi. My location is in Germany. How can I get Brent' book. What' about the cost, delivery and payment?| 14730|10771|2007-10-07 20:08:04|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 progress|I'll have to look into that Ben, guess I need to catch up on the current state of the art epoxies. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 07:12:05PM -0700, Tom wrote: > > > > Its nice to here others had good luck with sherwin williams paints. > > A local sailor and welder, Gary, used "cheap SW epoxy", as he calls it, > it on his hull - which lay in a marina that dries out at low tide. His > paint got more of a beating than most ever do, for years, and it still > looks pretty good. I'm convinced. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14731|14697|2007-10-07 20:08:17|seeratlas|Re: ABRACADABRA|Ok, Eduardo, :) I'm going to go back and re-read everything that you and gerd have writting on this again and make sure I understand what you are saying :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I dunno eduardo...lets say i pull together a brent hull with 2 > > longitudinals made out of 1" mild steel angle. I'd bet a dollar > (even > > a currently depreciated US dollar :) against a doughnut that if that > > framing extended the full length of the panel, I'd get a different > > curve, than if it was only say 8 feet in the middle. Now what about > if > > I set those longitudinals at an angle instead of parallel to the > > panels, or used 2" angle instead...? I'd get a different curvature > > again. Further, If you've seen one of these built, as in the video, > > Brent periodically places bracing to modify the curve to get the > hull > > to conform/deform to the curves he wants, as he pulls the various > > parts of the hull together- again-as I said, something that would > > effect the curve. > > > > Someone once described this as origami combined with tortured steel > > boat building. I think that description is more apt. The trick is > how > > to induce the curves where you want them by using bracing, framing, > > longitudinals and different size and composition bracing, framing > and > > longitudinals. I'm aware of no program that does that easily, at > least > > on and over a whole developed surface. It's why I call this 'art'. > > > > I used to play on a high level in the 4x4 off road vehicle arena. > Over > > the years I've had innumerable discussions with the theoreticians > who > > plot and graph and fiddle with their calcs. My closing argument was > > always, "If you want to build a vehicle to climb a given surface and > > hill, I'd prefer not to talk to the guys with the calculators at the > > bottom, but rather spend some time with the guy parked up on top". > > > > I've found that a pretty successful strategy in quite a number of > > fields of endeavor. > > > > Don't underestimate the ductility of mild steel plate. As can be > seen > > in Alex's and Brent's video, and has been confirmed to me by Gord, > > these big panels are pretty squirrelly until the decks are on. If > I'm > > not mistaken, one of the principal reasons Brent uses the origami > > method without building on an existing frame is to enable as fair a > > curve as possible across the panels. You can ask him how removing > the > > longitudinals prior to pulling a 36 or 40 or larger together would > > affect the resultant half hull form... > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "drddias" wrote: > > > > > > Seer, Brent, > > > Thank you for your replies, > > > I think origami means an old (japanese?)foldable paper technics > for > > > building boats, swans,( NOT SWAINS)and other entities. (is that > so?) > > > There's a sort of magic in it which i think is still present in > your > > > minds, do to the way you talk of the moment when you "pull the > hulls > > > together". magic happens then, "abracadabra", and there's the > boat. > > > But it is not so. There are not such things as "input parameters > that > > > will afect curvatures induced by pulling" (Mr. Seer)and doble > > > curvature. All you got is a single curvature in each point of the > > > surface, (try to tuch the hull with a ruller, spining it you will > find > > > a straight line, the generatrix) wether the material is steel > plate or > > > cardboard or plywood (to get doble curvature, you need heat, lots > of > > > it, and hammers, heavy ones). And all you need is to be able to > design > > > your inputs which are ONLY the deck curve, the longitudinal > profile and > > > the form and location of the chine, to get the final surfaces. As > for > > > this one, eaven it's length is not an input, as you might > consider that > > > it exists till the bow, as in a simple chine hull, but you wont't > > > notice it because the surfaces are contigous to each other, > thought, > > > the chine becomes invisible in that zone. (You will supress that > part > > > of it). (the other parts of the darts are not inputs at all, they > just > > > result). > > > To achieve this, you must work with the generatrixes, wich are > the > > > only physical reperesentations that you dispose to master the > > > construction of the surfaces that you intent. (there is no maths > > > involved in it) > > > Surface softwares are useless, althought practical, as computers > do > > > only what they have been told (taught) to do. Beter to work with > > > autocad, mastering the use of 3d curvs and tangents. It is so > easy and > > > it alouds you to go on to solids, for futher calculations on > volums > > > and momments, form coeficients and stability. > > > thanks again > > > eduardo > > > > > > I give up Seer, thats not fair. I would pay for a donut more than > 75cts of an euro, and you would pay less than 25 cents of a dollar, I > supose. I would always loose. But, > You must dont confound "local" dimensional changes that are > consequences of the heat of cutting and welding, and reflect his > efects localy, with the global deformation. If you mesure the lenght > of the plate before and after the bending, you will se that there is > no diference at all, in any direction. (using reiforcements, will > pull the neutral axis of the seccion towards the renforcement seccion > (outside the plate seccion), thow making the steel plate work only on > traction, therefore at the end you will have an elastic deformation, > with the consequent stretch of the material, (which is predictable > and mesurable). > As per reinforcements, they are used to inprove resistance modulus of > the plates to be bent, in order to facilitate the bending of long > curvature radious, (in long elements,) they just facilitate the > process of bending. > This efects efectively produces doble curvature, a few milimeters, > which are irrelevant in the project. They are irrelevant in the shape > of the boats, not eaven noticiable, are a coulateral efect. > And no Gerd, find a streight ruller, and you will find the rabbit! > Mr Swain, faster then his shadow, as usual. > eduardo > | 14732|14669|2007-10-07 20:10:22|seeratlas|[SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|The 'rant' was clearly labeled, and everyone was suitably warned. As for the subject matter, I'd say that merely cruising thru someones territorial waters dragging a single line and getting fined 45k +US dollars, and prison time, is not entirely irrelevant to a group of people building boats to go cruising in, and in many cases, in the affected locale. I would not be surprised to see more incidents of this type occurring in the future. Brent has commented on his problems with the Aussies, and with an island state the name of which I don't recall at the moment, and he's canadian. As for the US withdrawing, you may very well see something along that line beginning in the not so distant future, and there will be many who will cheer its onset along with you. I suspect however, among them will NOT be, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Estonians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Georgians, the Filipinos, the Taiwanese, those in Hong Kong, the Armenians, the Kurds, and perhaps a few others, including those French, British,Belgians and Dutch old enough to remember 1945. As for 'world police'..I'm reminded of a salient quote from Orwell, (Get ready Ben :) I'll paraphrase as best i can but it went something like this.. "Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, Only because, somewhere rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who would do them harm." It's been my experience that there are *other kinds of rough men*... Like it or not, there is a world war underway. By the definition of the principal moving ideology, in the end, there can be no neutrals. Don't take my word for it, look up a fellow named the "Mahdi", then assuming your farsi is a bit rusty, you might read some verbatim translations of the Iranian President's recent speeches.... All in all, I would advise going cruising sooner as opposed to later:) In any event, to the group, again, my apologies. I'm just getting old :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > > > [Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) > > > > First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. > Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind of off > subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one > thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would > probably become a better place and a safer place (even for Americans) if the > US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for > everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first strike and > strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the US has > created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the last one > is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. > > > > Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because there are > other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay with the > boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, > even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor). > > > > (I do not expect a reply or comment) > > > > Knut F Garshol > > > > ___ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14733|14669|2007-10-07 20:10:39|seeratlas|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Excellent post, excellent points, but I'd be cautious of assuming that all of what Chalmers wrote is 'true' just because it appears in print. Furthermore, with the exception of Gitmo, most if not all of these installations are by invitation.. To be sure, throughout my association with the US govt. in various capacities I was continually surprised to discover the extent of our overseas involvement, but I always chalked it up to concern over the possibility of a what we thought was a formidable adversary, with clearly expansionist ambitions, and a declared intention,to commence an engagement which in a matter of mere hours would decimate large portions of the planet. Consider what you would do if charged with defending, and choosing whom to defend, against such a threat, given the means. In that regard, let me 'pull back the curtain' and show you the face of the little man who can let you 'see inside' what was really going on during the later stages of wwII and the 'cold war' ensuing thereafter. If you jump to the site below and take the time to read the interview, you will read for perhaps the first time the truth regarding that subject matter, straight from the lips of one of the most powerful men of the last century, of whom you've most likely never heard, and perhaps the most impressive man I've ever called 'friend', teacher, and colleague, Milton Katz. The interview, given by the man who was at the center of post war europe, reveals quite a bit about how things got to be the way they are, and why. Don't be too surprised, if you are a bit surprised :) That's the way it normally goes in these kinds of things. seer http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/katzm.htm he was a truly great man, and those in the west who knew him and what and who he was, mourn him still. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" wrote: > > Rants breed rants…so here goes. By the way, I am not in total > disagreement with a little bit of (non origami) salsa on the site as > Brent and others have suggested. > > Seer, who would disagree with your original indignation about a > simple cruising boat meeting with obstinate bureaucracy? However, > the rest of the post has volleyed into a political zone dealing with > US global largesse. > > I am sure all referenced in your rant would bid the empire a fond > farewell. But why such a paltry limitation for withdrawal? To get > really serious let's consider this except from "Nemesis: The Last > Days of the American Empire" Chalmers Johnson > > The total of America's military bases in other people's countries in > 2005, according to Pentagon sources, was 737."…. The worldwide total > of U.S. military personnel in 2005, including those based > domestically, was 1,840,062 supported by an additional 473,306 > Defense Department civil service employees and 203,328 local hires. > "These numbers, although staggeringly big, do not begin to cover all > the actual bases we occupy globally." If there were an honest count, > the actual size of our military empire would probably top 1,000 > different bases overseas, but no one -- possibly not even the > Pentagon -- knows the exact number for sure. > > The U.S. government tries not to divulge any information about the > bases we use to eavesdrop on global communications, or our nuclear > deployments, which, as William Arkin, an authority on the subject, > writes, "[have] violated its treaty obligations. The U.S. was lying > to many of its closest allies, even in NATO, about its nuclear > designs. Tens of thousands of nuclear weapons, hundreds of bases, and > dozens of ships and submarines exist in a special secret world of > their own with no rational military or even 'deterrence' > justification." (end) > > This is the trillion dollar business of militarism passed off > as "spreading democracy". There is just too little left to plunder > within the USA for any shard of hope that Seer rant could mercifully > come true. > > By the way, Canadians do not want to be the richest nation on earth > in terms of GNP as federal election polls show environment to be the > No 1 priority not exploitation of oil resources or diversion of > entire river systems fresh water to south of the 49th . > > If we want a hope, let it be that humans tone down the party, de- > populate and preserve what is left worth cruising to. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Man, > > > > If the description is true, one american sailboat, two people, > > trolling one fishing line and not even planning to stop in > > BVI...that's amazing. I'll have to agree with some of the posters > > commenting on the article. I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked > > drop in tourism to the BVI, and some retaliation in kind from the > USVI. > > > > .. WARNING!!! IMMINENT RANT ALERT!!! Lasciate ogni speranza voi che > > entrate!!! > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should > just > > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. I think if you do the > > math, with oil at 80 plus a barrel, the oil shale, coal rendition, > and > > other deposits we have become economically viable, especially > nuclear > > of which we have a tremendous abundance so energy is not a problem. > > Especially withe the huge deposits being found in the Arctic off > > Alaska and Canada. Hell, Canada may become one of the richest > nations > > on the planet in the foreseeable future. We can easily build robots > > to do what cheap chinese labor can do, cutting them off from the US > > market would turn their whole country upside down, course WalMart > will > > throw a fit, but that's only one country, er company LOL. USVI, > > Puerto Rico, and those island nations remaining friendly to the US > > provide ample "Caribbean Experience" opportunities for our > yachtsmen, > > as do the hospitable Cannuck and Mexican coasts, for our Pacific > > coastal sailors. Hawaii isn't all that bad of a Pacific island > > destination, and we'll probably always be on good terms with the > > Brits, Aussies and Kiwis. Hell Castro will be dead soon, and I > > believe the world will be AMAZED at how quickly all those > generations > > of American hating cubans, will be throwing the welcome mat out for > > American tourists and investment. Venezuelans seem to desire > > dictatorship and they will soon have it. Perhaps they will enjoy it. > > Perhaps not. > > > > The American protectorates, or outposts aren't all that bad > either. > > We could hand NATO and its expense over to the Europeans, after all, > > Russia/China most likely don't have territorial designs on the > > continental US. Move the United Nations to say Switzerland, and > > withdraw presence and funding from that increasingly comical asylum > > for the helpless. Terminate our foreign aid programs except for > > humanitarian disasters, bring our production and manufacturing needs > > back home, or re-establish them jointly with the Mexicans and > > Canadians. Then look around the rest of the world and re-evaluate > our > > relationships on a country by country basis. Just a quick run thru > > the numbers indicate huge monetary savings, drastic improvement in > > technological and economic security, all we would really have to do > is > > increase our military r&d to maintain dominance in that area and > > maintain open international waters, to nip any continental > aspirations > > of some of our enemies, or was it some of our 'friends', or is > there a > > difference....Course the middle east *problem* would soon resolve > > itself. Since Israel has neither the population nor desire to > colonize > > or subjugate the populations that surround them, most likely they'd > > be forced to turn the surrounding area into a lifeless black glass > > skating rink which would at least give them some clear fire fields > > should anyone else decide they need wiping off the map. (on the > > skating rinks, well that's what thermo nukes do to sand) Anyone that > > thinks the Israelis are going to go with the Nazi death camp > obedience > > thing again, is seriously mistaken. Those days are over. > > > > For we Americans, of course, the major downside would be in the map > > making field where we'd be revising our maps of the various other > > countries on a monthly basis as nations were attacked, homologated, > or > > simply destroyed, tho that would no doubt get easier and easier as > > time went on ...fewer countries to map, and fewer populations to > sweat. > > > > Yep, sometimes i wonder at the 'heaven on earth' the rest of this > > planet would be without all us 'god damned americans' mucking about. > > > > (oh for those that missed it, or that believe our 'left's version of > > the *news*, the first parts of Regan's *Star Wars* system now works, > > and is at least partly implemented as we speak. Assuming we can stay > > on top of development of that system, it's entirely possible that we > > will in just a few years be able to pull the old tortose in the > shell > > trick and let the rest of the world have at it, taking out only > those > > who pose a direct threat.) > > > > I was not surprised to read a recent transcript of the frustration > of > > one of the leaders of a developing nation over America's failure to > > participate in the Kyoto treaty. If I understood him right he was > > screaming about how his country needed the money from the sale of > > 'pollution or carbon credits' to the US...lol. Maybe we could even > > start up a for real NEWS network in the US staffed by people who > > actually know what's going on, instead of trying to control what's > > going on :) Now wouldn't THAT be something... > > > > RANT OVER, sorry, just one of those days > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > > > http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1505173563/show/1148582 > > > > > > | 14734|14697|2007-10-07 20:11:02|Gerd|Re: ABRACADABRA|> And no Gerd, find a streight ruller, and you will find the rabbit! Eduardo, I got the boat(s) and the ruler right here, and believe me, it's centimeters, several of them, that we are talking here, not millimeters, and you are welcome to hop over and check yourself ;-) I believe you are talking about the theoretical modelling of the origami shape, and of course it's fully developable. When designing the pattern, you design a flat, 2D countour that you transfer onto a flat sheet, so of course there is no compund curve at that moment. I also agree that there is no magic mathematics here, and trying to force a program to give you an unfolded surface from non developable surfaces does not work. That's why I do not even bother to try to design compound curve in my 3D model. What I really do is try to find not a surface or surfaces but rather the contours, the borders of the pattern to cut. So, I think I understand your point, but.. What you do not seem to have eperienced yet is the practical side of working with large panels of steel in this way. When you fold an origami hull there is quite a bit of compound curve fore and aft (less of it aft because the steel follows more smoothly the transom curve than the rounded bow on the centerline) even before heat shrinkage due to welding, and there is more after welding. Steel plate CAN take some compound curve under tension. As for the role of the internal structure: The hull for my Yago 31 was folded without any stringer in there, the hull for the Rover we folded with lots of full length stringers, and I think there was not that much difference in the outcome, except that it's of course much easier to place them before. For the Yago 36 beeing build now in Florida, they placed the stringers first but have not joined the half hulls yet, so we will have to wait to see what that looks like then. Gerd| 14735|14669|2007-10-07 20:44:07|Paul Wilson|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Hi Seer, I really enjoy most of your postings and although always interesting I am getting weary of wading through too many e-mails that have nothing to do with boats. Agreed, the story about the couple caught fishing may be relevant to the group. How did it develop on to the Iraq war? I agree with Knut, if we start argueing about politics it will all get to be too much. With all due respect, please keep it to boats.;). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 4:39:45 AM Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip The 'rant' was clearly labeled, and everyone was suitably warned. As for the subject matter, I'd say that merely cruising thru someones territorial waters dragging a single line and getting fined 45k +US dollars, and prison time, is not entirely irrelevant to a group of people building boats to go cruising in, and in many cases, in the affected locale. I would not be surprised to see more incidents of this type occurring in the future. Brent has commented on his problems with the Aussies, and with an island state the name of which I don't recall at the moment, and he's canadian. As for the US withdrawing, you may very well see something along that line beginning in the not so distant future, and there will be many who will cheer its onset along with you. I suspect however, among them will NOT be, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Estonians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Georgians, the Filipinos, the Taiwanese, those in Hong Kong, the Armenians, the Kurds, and perhaps a few others, including those French, British,Belgians and Dutch old enough to remember 1945. As for 'world police'..I'm reminded of a salient quote from Orwell, (Get ready Ben :) I'll paraphrase as best i can but it went something like this.. "Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, Only because, somewhere rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who would do them harm." It's been my experience that there are *other kinds of rough men*... Like it or not, there is a world war underway. By the definition of the principal moving ideology, in the end, there can be no neutrals. Don't take my word for it, look up a fellow named the "Mahdi", then assuming your farsi is a bit rusty, you might read some verbatim translations of the Iranian President's recent speeches.... All in all, I would advise going cruising sooner as opposed to later:) In any event, to the group, again, my apologies. I'm just getting old :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > > > [Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) > > > > First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. > Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind of off > subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one > thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would > probably become a better place and a safer place (even for Americans) if the > US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for > everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first strike and > strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the US has > created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the last one > is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. > > > > Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because there are > other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay with the > boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, > even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor) . > > > > (I do not expect a reply or comment) > > > > Knut F Garshol > > > > ___ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14736|14736|2007-10-07 21:33:32|Alex|new photos|Dear Group, I have posted new photos, some showing interior, of my BS36 aft-cabin boat, for those curious to see inside. In album, Alex's aft cabin BS36. Also, first album in the list of albums shows my bare hull being lifted off trailer and put by my apartment. Note absence of politics in my post <------- !! Alex| 14737|14737|2007-10-07 23:12:07|Tom|Wheel weights|Hello All I have a few buckets of wheel weight and after I finished painting I started melting them down into bricks and I can say what a P I A . Takes a lot of weights to make a 20 pound brick and there is about 5 pounds of trash from each bick, No way in heck i would pay 40 cents a pound for them, free might be worth it. What kind of burner would one use if you were going to do a keel in one pour? I was using one of those turkey deep fryer burners and it was to slow for me just doing small amounts, I used the tourch to help get it going. Once you get it hot enough all the trash floats to the top and is easly scraped off , its time consuming. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14738|14669|2007-10-07 23:12:54|seeratlas|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|I hear you Paul. back to boats hehe. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I really enjoy most of your postings and although always interesting I am getting weary of wading through too many e-mails that have nothing to do with boats. Agreed, the story about the couple caught fishing may be relevant to the group. How did it develop on to the Iraq war? > > I agree with Knut, if we start argueing about politics it will all get to be too much. With all due respect, please keep it to boats.;). > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 4:39:45 AM > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip > > The 'rant' was clearly labeled, and everyone was suitably warned. > > As for the subject matter, I'd say that merely cruising thru someones > territorial waters dragging a single line and getting fined 45k +US > dollars, and prison time, is not entirely irrelevant to a group of > people building boats to go cruising in, and in many cases, in the > affected locale. I would not be surprised to see more incidents of > this type occurring in the future. Brent has commented on his problems > with the Aussies, and with an island state the name of which I don't > recall at the moment, and he's canadian. > > As for the US withdrawing, you may very well see something along that > line beginning in the not so distant future, and there will be many > who will cheer its onset along with you. I suspect however, among > them will NOT be, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the > Estonians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Georgians, the Filipinos, > the Taiwanese, those in Hong Kong, the Armenians, the Kurds, and > perhaps a few others, including those French, British,Belgians and > Dutch old enough to remember 1945. > > As for 'world police'..I'm reminded of a salient quote from Orwell, > (Get ready Ben :) I'll paraphrase as best i can but it went something > like this.. > > "Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, Only because, > somewhere rough men stand ready > to visit violence upon those who would do them harm." > > It's been my experience that there are *other kinds of rough men*... > > Like it or not, there is a world war underway. By the definition of > the principal moving ideology, in the end, there can be no neutrals. > Don't take my word for it, look up a fellow named the "Mahdi", then > assuming your farsi is a bit rusty, you might read some verbatim > translations of the Iranian President's recent speeches.... > > All in all, I would advise going cruising sooner as opposed to later:) > > In any event, to the group, again, my apologies. I'm just getting old :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: > > > > > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) > > > > > > > > First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. > > Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind > of off > > subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one > > thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would > > probably become a better place and a safer place (even for > Americans) if the > > US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for > > everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first > strike and > > strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the > US has > > created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the > last one > > is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. > > > > > > > > Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because > there are > > other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay > with the > > boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, > > even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor) . > > > > > > > > (I do not expect a reply or comment) > > > > > > > > Knut F Garshol > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14739|14739|2007-10-08 00:41:53|ryan tinsley|pilot house windows|Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in place with sikkens. Ryan --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14740|14737|2007-10-08 00:51:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Wheel weights|Hi Tom, It sounds like you aren't using enough heat. I also did my keel with lead wheel weights. I melted about 1500 pounds using the corner of a cast iron barbecue lid on top of a camp fire. Using the corner made triangular ingots. It worked great once I got lots of heat by blowing on the fire with the exhaust from my shop-vac vacuum. Later, I threw these ingots into the keel and melted the rest of the lead around them (also tire weights) all in one day. I had a two foot tub made up of steel on a stand outside the keel. A pipe with a gate valve led into the boat through the top of the keel. I rented two tiger torches to melt the lead about 500 pounds at a time. The clips floated to the top and it was easy to skim them off with a shovel. They take up a lot of volume so it is well worth getting rid of them. I ended up renting a third tiger torch to get the pipe hot enough that the lead started to flow through. I believe the tiger torches were 250,000 btu so its a lot of heat. I used about 5- 20 pound bottles of propane that day, if I remember correctly. The gas was coming out of the bottles so quick it was icing up the regulators. I tried to control the heat of the lead, keeping the lead liquid but not too hot that it starts gassing off. That is a good way to get lead poisoning. Doing it all outside the boat makes it much safer but make sure the tub is sturdy. If it tipped over it could be a disaster. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 10:19:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Wheel weights Hello All I have a few buckets of wheel weight and after I finished painting I started melting them down into bricks and I can say what a P I A . Takes a lot of weights to make a 20 pound brick and there is about 5 pounds of trash from each bick, No way in heck i would pay 40 cents a pound for them, free might be worth it. What kind of burner would one use if you were going to do a keel in one pour? I was using one of those turkey deep fryer burners and it was to slow for me just doing small amounts, I used the tourch to help get it going. Once you get it hot enough all the trash floats to the top and is easly scraped off , its time consuming. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14741|14739|2007-10-08 01:17:14|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: pilot house windows|It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It is normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber balls to set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on the outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or pushed out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then tightened and glue trimed. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in place with sikkens. > > Ryan > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14742|14739|2007-10-08 02:12:50|ryan tinsley|Re: pilot house windows|Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. Ryan "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It is normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber balls to set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on the outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or pushed out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then tightened and glue trimed. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in place with sikkens. > > Ryan > > > --------------------------------- > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14743|14697|2007-10-08 02:13:25|heretic_37ft|ABRACADABRA|My Swain 37 has exquisite compound curves. To learn more: 1) Take an 8' x 8' piece of 0.125" mild steel plate and jack up each corner 4". You now have a compound curve. Mild steel is ductile. 2) Then to make the compound curve permanent jack it up 8" and jump in the middle of the piece of steel. Now a use a straight edge ("ruler") and check it to see what happened. 3) Brent can tell you more; he has designed over a hundred boats that are truly magic. I highly recommend his book before posting, however. Heretic_37ft| 14744|14737|2007-10-08 13:14:51|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Wheel weights|We have started collecting lead for our boat and we pay 10 cents a pound for wheel weight and what ever else is in the bucket. I processed 1600 pounds with turkey fryer; melt and collect the scrap off the top of the pot method. That worked well for 1600 pounds but we are after 30000 pounds this time so the smelter got reworked and I just love the results. The fuel is now wood, and I now produce 600 pounds in 4 hours.? It only takes 45 minutes of actual tending to the melt.? I have the details on my web site; http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/lead.html?? The wood smelter is about 3/4 the way down the page. I hope that helps, Doug Jackson Tulsa OK -----Original Message----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 9:19 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Wheel weights Hello All I have a few buckets of wheel weight and after I finished painting I started melting them down into bricks and I can say what a P I A . Takes a lot of weights to make a 20 pound brick and there is about 5 pounds of trash from each bick, No way in heck i would pay 40 cents a pound for them, free might be worth it. What kind of burner would one use if you were going to do a keel in one pour? I was using one of those turkey deep fryer burners and it was to slow for me just doing small amounts, I used the tourch to help get it going. Once you get it hot enough all the trash floats to the top and is easly scraped off , its time consuming. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14745|14669|2007-10-08 13:16:42|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Hi Seer, I too agree that the mention of heavy handed burocraps IS relavent here as it was specifically related to boats & cruising. In general I too enjoy your input as you have a lot of posative contributions & clear insite in your past, and hopefully futre, postings. But like Knut and others I find it extremely offensive and completely indefensable your support of the war mongers. NO ONE has merdered more than the americans, not even the Nazi's. Perhaps you should read some of your compatriot's work, that of Noam Chomski. His work "manufacturing concent" would be a good start. It shows clearly what the military industrial machine has created in your beloved america. You have been suckered mate! and he has been hailed as one of the great minds of our times. It has NO PLACE HERE. Christ, you guys are set to implode financially (breaking the hearts of billons!) and STILL the pro military violent retoric. As Mao said "political power eminates from the barrel of a gun". The yanks proved that's true but the results of all that are about to come home to you. Worldwide. Just lucky for you that the Chinese know how to mind their own business don't you think? SO.... if you stop lying to us we will stop telling the truth about you. LETS GET BACK TO BOATS! Shane Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14746|14669|2007-10-08 13:51:16|seeratlas|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Shane, I have heard you and the others and will try and restrain myself better in the future. :) Otoh, don't expect the US to go down anytime soon. Money is a 'relative' thing..as is its value. All that has happened is that as the dollar price of oil has gone up, we have devalued the dollar...:) at the same time improving the competitive price of our products in the world market as against the rising yen, euro, pound, etc. If you look closely you will find in the world's financial press, the rising chorus of concern over the improved competitiveness pricewise of american products in the international markets. Canada's auto related businesses will be hollering as loud as any as their products just got what, 15 to 20 percent more expensive in the US? There is an old saying, he who owns the customer, i.e. the 'market', owns the business...and the largest market is still....well you get the idea. When some other country or group supplants the US as the world's dominant market, then things will change significantly. It's not politics, its economics. seer t --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I too agree that the mention of heavy handed burocraps > IS relavent here as it was specifically related to > boats & cruising. In general I too enjoy your input as > you have a lot of posative contributions & clear > insite in your past, and hopefully futre, postings. > > But like Knut and others I find it extremely offensive > and completely indefensable your support of the war > mongers. NO ONE has merdered more than the americans, > not even the Nazi's. > > Perhaps you should read some of your compatriot's > work, that of Noam Chomski. His work "manufacturing > concent" would be a good start. It shows clearly what > the military industrial machine has created in your > beloved america. You have been suckered mate! and he > has been hailed as one of the great minds of our > times. > > It has NO PLACE HERE. Christ, you guys are set to > implode financially (breaking the hearts of billons!) > and STILL the pro military violent retoric. As Mao > said "political power eminates from the barrel of a > gun". The yanks proved that's true but the results of > all that are about to come home to you. Worldwide. > Just lucky for you that the Chinese know how to mind > their own business don't you think? > > SO.... if you stop lying to us we will stop telling > the truth about you. > > LETS GET BACK TO BOATS! > > Shane > > > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 14747|14669|2007-10-08 13:51:21|seeratlas|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|No problem Paul, as you can see, I'm *trying* to get back there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I really enjoy most of your postings and although always interesting I am getting weary of wading through too many e-mails that have nothing to do with boats. Agreed, the story about the couple caught fishing may be relevant to the group. How did it develop on to the Iraq war? > > I agree with Knut, if we start argueing about politics it will all get to be too much. With all due respect, please keep it to boats.;). > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 4:39:45 AM > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip > > The 'rant' was clearly labeled, and everyone was suitably warned. > > As for the subject matter, I'd say that merely cruising thru someones > territorial waters dragging a single line and getting fined 45k +US > dollars, and prison time, is not entirely irrelevant to a group of > people building boats to go cruising in, and in many cases, in the > affected locale. I would not be surprised to see more incidents of > this type occurring in the future. Brent has commented on his problems > with the Aussies, and with an island state the name of which I don't > recall at the moment, and he's canadian. > > As for the US withdrawing, you may very well see something along that > line beginning in the not so distant future, and there will be many > who will cheer its onset along with you. I suspect however, among > them will NOT be, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the > Estonians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Georgians, the Filipinos, > the Taiwanese, those in Hong Kong, the Armenians, the Kurds, and > perhaps a few others, including those French, British,Belgians and > Dutch old enough to remember 1945. > > As for 'world police'..I'm reminded of a salient quote from Orwell, > (Get ready Ben :) I'll paraphrase as best i can but it went something > like this.. > > "Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, Only because, > somewhere rough men stand ready > to visit violence upon those who would do them harm." > > It's been my experience that there are *other kinds of rough men*... > > Like it or not, there is a world war underway. By the definition of > the principal moving ideology, in the end, there can be no neutrals. > Don't take my word for it, look up a fellow named the "Mahdi", then > assuming your farsi is a bit rusty, you might read some verbatim > translations of the Iranian President's recent speeches.... > > All in all, I would advise going cruising sooner as opposed to later:) > > In any event, to the group, again, my apologies. I'm just getting old :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: > > > > > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) > > > > > > > > First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. > > Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind > of off > > subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one > > thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would > > probably become a better place and a safer place (even for > Americans) if the > > US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for > > everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first > strike and > > strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the > US has > > created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the > last one > > is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. > > > > > > > > Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because > there are > > other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay > with the > > boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, > > even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor) . > > > > > > > > (I do not expect a reply or comment) > > > > > > > > Knut F Garshol > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14748|14739|2007-10-08 13:51:43|seeratlas|Re: pilot house windows|I seem to recall someone posting here that an effective long enduring seal was achieved using a scuba suit type neoprene ring forming a gasket on both sides, then glued and the securing plates etc. put on. The problem is the difference in expansion rates between the glass and the steel. Last I heard the neoprene setup was still dry as a bone. Should be able to find the thread here with the search engine. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It is > normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber balls to > set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on the > outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or pushed > out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then tightened > and glue trimed. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > wrote: > > > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass > shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the > outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in > place with sikkens. > > > > Ryan > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > mail, news, photos & more. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14749|14737|2007-10-08 13:51:45|seeratlas|Re: Wheel weights|Doug :) Hey which model are you building? I come into Tulsa all the time for one reason or another. Where are planning on taking the boat when she's finished? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > We have started collecting lead for our boat and we pay 10 cents a pound for wheel weight and what ever else is in the bucket. > > I processed 1600 pounds with turkey fryer; melt and collect the scrap off the top of the pot method. That worked well for 1600 pounds but we are after 30000 pounds this time so the smelter got reworked and I just love the results. > > The fuel is now wood, and I now produce 600 pounds in 4 hours.? It only takes 45 minutes of actual tending to the melt.? I have the details on my web site; http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/lead.html?? The wood smelter is about 3/4 the way down the page. > > I hope that helps, > Doug Jackson > Tulsa OK > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 9:19 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Wheel weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I have a few buckets of wheel weight and after I finished painting I started melting them down into bricks and I can say what a P I A . Takes a lot of weights to make a 20 pound brick and there is about 5 pounds of trash from each bick, No way in heck i would pay 40 cents a pound for them, free might be worth it. What kind of burner would one use if you were going to do a keel in one pour? I was using one of those turkey deep fryer burners and it was to slow for me just doing small amounts, I used the tourch to help get it going. > > Once you get it hot enough all the trash floats to the top and is easly scraped off , its time consuming. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14750|14737|2007-10-08 20:13:06|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Wheel weights|Doug, Have to give you credit for ingenuity.you have solved many issues in your quest to build your unique submersible! R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 11:53 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wheel weights We have started collecting lead for our boat and we pay 10 cents a pound for wheel weight and what ever else is in the bucket. I processed 1600 pounds with turkey fryer; melt and collect the scrap off the top of the pot method. That worked well for 1600 pounds but we are after 30000 pounds this time so the smelter got reworked and I just love the results. The fuel is now wood, and I now produce 600 pounds in 4 hours.? It only takes 45 minutes of actual tending to the melt.? I have the details on my web site; http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/lead.html?? The wood smelter is about 3/4 the way down the page. I hope that helps, Doug Jackson Tulsa OK [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14751|14669|2007-10-08 20:13:15|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Hi Shane I agree with some of what you said but strongly disagree about both the comparison with the Nazis and the elevation of Chomsky beyond his well deserved reputation as a scholar. BUT above all, this discussion needs to take place off-line, or outside of this list. Email me directly if you want, but please don't perpetuate this thread, which is what you just did. And your penultimate sentence is juvenile crap. Jim Baltaxe 209 Derwent Street Island Bay, Wellington NEW ZEALAND +64 (04) 938 6018 027 563 5018 They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SHANE ROTHWELL Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2007 5:31 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip Hi Seer, I too agree that the mention of heavy handed burocraps IS relavent here as it was specifically related to boats & cruising. In general I too enjoy your input as you have a lot of posative contributions & clear insite in your past, and hopefully futre, postings. But like Knut and others I find it extremely offensive and completely indefensable your support of the war mongers. NO ONE has merdered more than the americans, not even the Nazi's. Perhaps you should read some of your compatriot's work, that of Noam Chomski. His work "manufacturing concent" would be a good start. It shows clearly what the military industrial machine has created in your beloved america. You have been suckered mate! and he has been hailed as one of the great minds of our times. It has NO PLACE HERE. Christ, you guys are set to implode financially (breaking the hearts of billons!) and STILL the pro military violent retoric. As Mao said "political power eminates from the barrel of a gun". The yanks proved that's true but the results of all that are about to come home to you. Worldwide. Just lucky for you that the Chinese know how to mind their own business don't you think? SO.... if you stop lying to us we will stop telling the truth about you. LETS GET BACK TO BOATS! Shane Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14752|14699|2007-10-08 20:13:36|polaris041|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|I would love to buy your book Brent but have a real problem paying more in bank fees for a 'TT' than the price of the book. Is there any other way to make payment. Even buying Canadian dollars at the bank adds nearly the price of the book on top again. later pol.(Australia) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To buy my book, please send $20 plus $5 for postage in Canada, $7 for > postage to the US , or $12 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 > Laurel Dr, Royston, BC, Canada, V0R2V0 > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" > wrote: > > > > Pretty much says it all... > > > | 14753|14739|2007-10-08 22:41:21|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: pilot house windows|Safety and tempered can be the same thing and when they give they explode in small peices like the side wondows in a auto. Laminated safety glass is like your windshield if it gets broke it may still be filling the hole. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. > > Ryan | 14754|14739|2007-10-08 22:41:56|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: pilot house windows|Neoprene wet suits breaks down in sun and air in time as well as open cell for the most part. The sunlight on the glass reflected to the edge where the neoprene is would break it down. A port light is normaly small enough the spacers and the flexable glue used can flex enough for the difference in expansion. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > I seem to recall someone posting here that an effective long enduring > seal was achieved using a scuba suit type neoprene ring forming a > gasket on both sides, then glued and the securing plates etc. put on. > The problem is the difference in expansion rates between the glass and > the steel. Last I heard the neoprene setup was still dry as a bone. > Should be able to find the thread here with the search engine. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It is > > normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber balls to > > set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on the > > outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or pushed > > out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then tightened > > and glue trimed. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > > wrote: > > > > > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass > > shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the > > outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in > > place with sikkens. > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > > mail, news, photos & more. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14755|14699|2007-10-09 02:21:03|jim dorey|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|polaris041 wrote: > > > I would love to buy your book Brent but have a real problem paying > more in bank fees for a 'TT' than the price of the book. > Is there any other way to make payment. > Even buying Canadian dollars at the bank adds nearly the price of the > book on top again. money order work? maybe brent can get a better exchange rate if you send local currency.| 14756|14739|2007-10-09 02:21:47|ryan tinsley|Re: pilot house windows|Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used in a double pane insulated window. Ryan : Safety and tempered can be the same thing and when they give they explode in small peices like the side wondows in a auto. Laminated safety glass is like your windshield if it gets broke it may still be filling the hole. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. > > Ryan --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14757|14739|2007-10-09 02:21:48|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: pilot house windows|Perhaps better than laminagted safety glass is the hurricane glass I found thru google. It's sold for glazing in the southern states. Product testing involves firing a 2 X 4 from an air gun at the window. I'm thinking of finding some for my dodger glazing and fixing them in with glue and a 1/4 inch thick X 2 wide, one piece aluminium surround, with the aluminium bolted and the glass glued with sikaflex or equivalent. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14758|14758|2007-10-09 15:40:18|jfpacuas|Kim/Winston Bushnell contact|Hi all, Does anyone have contact info for Kim or Winston Bushnell? I have some questions about the boat Puna. I believe they built the boat, yes? Thanks Paul| 14759|14072|2007-10-09 15:40:21|jonathanswef|Eighteen|Dear All, Thanks for the pointers on pilot house windows.I looked at the info on MBS which was a help Carl. Got a price for the stainless to trim round the forehatch. At nearly 50 pounds sterling inc taxes I think I am going to be relying on the marvelous qualities of modern paints and using mild steel. For the windows too. I can get 40mm x 20mm x 4mm unequal angle off the shelf. For the rounded corners I imagine I will cut corners out of flat plate and remove the 40mm off the angle for the length to be welded to these arcs. I will then half weld the frames to the pilothouse before I cut the holes out and weld the other side of the frames. I found the answer to my overheating welder; the cooling fan was not on the motor shaft. It is now and the welder lasted for about three times as many rods before shutting down. Funny thing is the fan motor shuts down at the same time, I'd have thought it would make sense for it to continue to run and cool the windings to get the machine back working sooner. Jonathan.| 14760|14739|2007-10-09 15:41:04|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: pilot house windows|Hurricane glass is slightly different as hurricane glass has a layer of polycarbonate laminated to the layers of silica glass with acrylic transparent glue layers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14761|14739|2007-10-09 15:41:08|khooper_fboats|Re: pilot house windows|The glass per se in laminated glass is not any stronger than conventional annealed window glass (meaning it does not acquire tensile strength for being laminated, like, say, plywood does). Laminated glass has a layer(s) of plastic sandwiched between layers of glass. This keeps it from shooting spears when it breaks. Depending on the qualities of the plastic, it might also improve the ability of the glass to absorb point impact loads (like bullets). Tempered glass is not annealed in manufacturing. Glass which has been worked in the molten state is extremely unstable--if you heat it in a torch til orange, then cool it again to ambient temp, it is liable to pop into pices at the slightest shock. In order to be stable, glass needs to be annealed--cooled very slowly in temperature-controlled chamber of some sort. Glass workers call this "ramping". It lets the molecules settle in against each other and stabilizes the glass. Tempered glass is not annealed, instead, the opposite: after being worked hot, it is immediately super-cooled, usually by having cold gasses of some sort shot at it. This produces the counter-intuitive result of glass that is under such severe internal stress that knocking it about doesn't bother it--if it makes it through the cooling process, its own stresses are greater than most impacts it is likely to encounter. I think auto glass is both tempered and laminated, but I don't know much about auto glass. There are also glasses (borosilicate glass, one brand name is Pyrex) which contain no soda and are intrinsically much stronger than conventional soda glass. They are more stable, much stronger, much harder, and better in every way than soda glass, but they are quite expensive per pound. I do not know if anybody makes laminated borosilicate glass. That would be an awesome material for portlights I bet if it exists. =^) Ken <-- wife is a semi-professional glass artist, has an annealing kiln in his living room, etc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used in a double pane insulated window. | 14762|14699|2007-10-09 15:41:28|audeojude|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|what about paypal? I order stuff from england to the us and have payed with paypal and they just use the days conversion rate and tack on a small fee for doing it if I remember right, less than a buck probably for the cost of brents book. Not sure if this will work for you but worth a look... of course this supposes that brent has a paypal account or knows someone that does and is willing to help. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > polaris041 wrote: > > > > > > I would love to buy your book Brent but have a real problem paying > > more in bank fees for a 'TT' than the price of the book. > > Is there any other way to make payment. > > Even buying Canadian dollars at the bank adds nearly the price of the > > book on top again. > > money order work? maybe brent can get a better exchange rate if you > send local currency. > | 14763|14669|2007-10-09 15:41:31|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip|Seer, I am not taking your bait to discuss ANY of the issues you raise (again). There are other views; there is no chance that you (and the US) are always right; a more restrictive approach and cooperation with other countries would create allies rather than opponents etc etc etc. As said before, we will NOT agree, so let us just agree to disagree. I read you as with positive intentions and respect that you have an opinion and stand for it, but don't use this boat building forum to preach your own US foreign politics! Best boating greetings (Currently in Caiscas Marina by Lisbon, Portugal in an Alubat 39.5) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 4:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Expensive Fishing Trip The 'rant' was clearly labeled, and everyone was suitably warned. As for the subject matter, I'd say that merely cruising thru someones territorial waters dragging a single line and getting fined 45k +US dollars, and prison time, is not entirely irrelevant to a group of people building boats to go cruising in, and in many cases, in the affected locale. I would not be surprised to see more incidents of this type occurring in the future. Brent has commented on his problems with the Aussies, and with an island state the name of which I don't recall at the moment, and he's canadian. As for the US withdrawing, you may very well see something along that line beginning in the not so distant future, and there will be many who will cheer its onset along with you. I suspect however, among them will NOT be, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Estonians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Georgians, the Filipinos, the Taiwanese, those in Hong Kong, the Armenians, the Kurds, and perhaps a few others, including those French, British,Belgians and Dutch old enough to remember 1945. As for 'world police'..I'm reminded of a salient quote from Orwell, (Get ready Ben :) I'll paraphrase as best i can but it went something like this.. "Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, Only because, somewhere rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who would do them harm." It's been my experience that there are *other kinds of rough men*... Like it or not, there is a world war underway. By the definition of the principal moving ideology, in the end, there can be no neutrals. Don't take my word for it, look up a fellow named the "Mahdi", then assuming your farsi is a bit rusty, you might read some verbatim translations of the Iranian President's recent speeches.... All in all, I would advise going cruising sooner as opposed to later:) In any event, to the group, again, my apologies. I'm just getting old :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > > > [Knut F Garshol] You Wrote: > > > > You know, sometimes the older and more jaded I get, I find myself > slipping towards sympathy with those Americans of dramatically > increasing number, who are of the opinion that perhaps we should just > quit traveling to/supporting other nations. (+ A LOT MORE) > > > > First of all, this kind of political rant has NO PLACE in this forum. > Secondly and in violation of my own advice to just ignore this kind of off > subject political or other opinions, let me just agree with you on one > thing: 'Yes' perhaps that is exactly what you should do! The world would > probably become a better place and a safer place (even for Americans) if the > US would stop playing world police and "we only know what is best for > everybody everywhere" with some sort of God-given right to first strike and > strikes anywhere they see fit. The load of examples of what mess the US has > created due to this sort of attitude and actions is LOOONG and the last one > is playing out for the world to see now in Iraq. > > > > Enough said. Stop provoking with this sort of statements because there are > other views and we will probably never agree anyway. Let us stay with the > boat issues. (Request to the overloaded Moderator: Cancel such postings, > even if coming from a long-time well qualified contributor). > > > > (I do not expect a reply or comment) > > > > Knut F Garshol > > > > ___ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14764|14739|2007-10-09 15:41:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: pilot house windows|On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 08:43:39PM -0700, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > Perhaps better than laminagted safety glass is the hurricane glass I > found thru google. > > It's sold for glazing in the southern states. Product testing > involves firing a 2 X 4 from an air gun at the window. > > I'm thinking of finding some for my dodger glazing and fixing them in > with glue and a 1/4 inch thick X 2 wide, one piece aluminium surround, > with the aluminium bolted and the glass glued with sikaflex or > equivalent. Funny you should mention it - since I'm thinking of redesigning my doghouse, I just stopped by a local glass place yesterday (I live in Florida) and asked them about hurricane glass. They also call it "impact glass" here. It's what they use for the tugboats around here. $22/sq. ft. for 3/8" (that's the most common size), and the tugs usually use 3'x3' sections. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14765|3134|2007-10-09 15:41:45|seeratlas|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|Here's the thread I was talking about regarding the neoprene gasket. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Ted, I put "on" 1/2" lexan much as described in Brent's book. The > key ingredient seems to be the neoprene gasket. This provides a slip > zone to prevent the caulking from shearing and eventual leakage. I > looked at a few "set in" ports on steel boats: all had water trap > problems and seemed vunerable to getting stove in. As far as I can > see, "set on" is the way to go. I made a drill jig to get all the > holes in the same place at each opening. It clamps in the hole and > can be used to drill the lexan too. I made extra lexan port-lights > for spares--all drilled to the same pattern. This way the parts are > sure to line up. The jig is easy to build, made of left over metal > and works well. rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hi ted > > > > Rust seems to like the exposed edge if the window is on the inside. > > Also any leaks usually arn't as easy to notice because they run > from > > the bottom of the window under the liner. > > one disadvantage of outside windows is that asthetically they look > > bigger for the actual window size . I painted over the overlap to > > reduce this look, this also protects the sealant from UV. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > | 14766|14739|2007-10-09 15:41:57|jim_both|Re: pilot house windows|The frit is there to stop UV from breaking down the adhesive, similar to automotive windscreens. Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley wrote: > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used in a double pane insulated window. > | 14767|14739|2007-10-09 15:42:59|Wally Paine|Re: pilot house windows|Has anyone considered polycarbonate? Wally Paine --- ryan tinsley wrote: > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a > frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which > is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the > response I am just trying to sort this out. I have > some demolition experience with bullet proof glass > which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I > believe laminated glass could also be used in a > double pane insulated window. > > Ryan > > : > Safety and tempered can be the same thing > and when they give they > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a > auto. Laminated > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets > broke it may still be > filling the hole. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > wrote: > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass > instead of tempered. > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - > their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html| 14768|14699|2007-10-09 15:43:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|Polaris, I bought dollars in a travel agent's bureau de change and put them in an envelope and that worked fine. bureau de change usually have better rates then banks. Regards, Ted| 14769|14072|2007-10-09 16:35:32|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Eighteen|Check out my blog for how I did it. These are hatch coamings, but I used the same technique for the window frames. I think the biggest challenge is keeping things flat. I would advise doing the frames on a flat worktable then welding them in the boat. http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/5413.html#cutid1 ----- Original Message ---- From: jonathanswef To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2007 2:29:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen Dear All, Thanks for the pointers on pilot house windows.I looked at the info on MBS which was a help Carl. Got a price for the stainless to trim round the forehatch. At nearly 50 pounds sterling inc taxes I think I am going to be relying on the marvelous qualities of modern paints and using mild steel. For the windows too. I can get 40mm x 20mm x 4mm unequal angle off the shelf. For the rounded corners I imagine I will cut corners out of flat plate and remove the 40mm off the angle for the length to be welded to these arcs. I will then half weld the frames to the pilothouse before I cut the holes out and weld the other side of the frames. I found the answer to my overheating welder; the cooling fan was not on the motor shaft. It is now and the welder lasted for about three times as many rods before shutting down. Funny thing is the fan motor shuts down at the same time, I'd have thought it would make sense for it to continue to run and cool the windings to get the machine back working sooner. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14770|3134|2007-10-09 16:36:07|polaris041|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|A few points on this process; First, when drilling 'plastic' dress your drill bit as you would when driling brass etc. That is take the positive rake off your bit and make it neutral. If you need to know how ask me. Second, the holes in the 'plastic' need to have clearance for the fasteners, which accomodates a bit of movement due to unequal expansion with out putting any stress on the hole edges. Lastly, de burr the holes edges to remove any nicks which act as concentrating points for stress and hence starters for any cracks will may develop. later pol > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > > > Ted, I put "on" 1/2" lexan much as described in Brent's book. The > > key ingredient seems to be the neoprene gasket. This provides a slip > > zone to prevent the caulking from shearing and eventual leakage. I > > looked at a few "set in" ports on steel boats: all had water trap > > problems and seemed vunerable to getting stove in. As far as I can > > see, "set on" is the way to go. I made a drill jig to get all the > > holes in the same place at each opening. It clamps in the hole and > > can be used to drill the lexan too. I made extra lexan port- lights > > for spares--all drilled to the same pattern. This way the parts are > > sure to line up. The jig is easy to build, made of left over metal > > and works well. rt | 14771|14739|2007-10-09 16:55:20|brentswain38|Re: pilot house windows|It's in my book. Works well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > I seem to recall someone posting here that an effective long enduring > seal was achieved using a scuba suit type neoprene ring forming a > gasket on both sides, then glued and the securing plates etc. put on. > The problem is the difference in expansion rates between the glass and > the steel. Last I heard the neoprene setup was still dry as a bone. > Should be able to find the thread here with the search engine. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It is > > normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber balls to > > set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on the > > outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or pushed > > out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then tightened > > and glue trimed. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > > wrote: > > > > > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any glass > > shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the > > outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued it in > > place with sikkens. > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > > mail, news, photos & more. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14772|14699|2007-10-09 16:55:28|brentswain38|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|Send me the equivalent in Aussi cash , at the current exchange rate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > I would love to buy your book Brent but have a real problem paying > more in bank fees for a 'TT' than the price of the book. > Is there any other way to make payment. > Even buying Canadian dollars at the bank adds nearly the price of the > book on top again. > > later pol.(Australia) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To buy my book, please send $20 plus $5 for postage in Canada, $7 > for > > postage to the US , or $12 for overseas airmail postage, to 3798 > > Laurel Dr, Royston, BC, Canada, V0R2V0 > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" > > wrote: > > > > > > Pretty much says it all... > > > > > > | 14773|14739|2007-10-09 16:55:52|brentswain38|Re: pilot house windows|Polycarbonate fogs up so badly in three years that you can't see anything out of them.You can bring them temporarily nearly back( still foggy) with plastic polishes like novus , etc, but that is only good for a few months.It is tougher, so I used it in cabinside windows that I use only for light( saves the need for curtains) but use plexy for pilothose side windows and glass for the front ones , which have wipers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > Has anyone considered polycarbonate? > > Wally Paine > --- ryan tinsley wrote: > > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a > > frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which > > is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the > > response I am just trying to sort this out. I have > > some demolition experience with bullet proof glass > > which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I > > believe laminated glass could also be used in a > > double pane insulated window. > > > > Ryan > > > > : > > Safety and tempered can be the same thing > > and when they give they > > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a > > auto. Laminated > > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets > > broke it may still be > > filling the hole. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > > wrote: > > > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass > > instead of tempered. > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - > > their life, your story. > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html > | 14774|14739|2007-10-09 17:03:29|brentswain38|Re: pilot house windows|Generally,it's the bedding between the neoprene and the glass that wil take the UV as long as the bedding is black and UV thus doesn't simply pass right thru it.Stick to black bedding for this reason. On plexi, can always paint the area of plexi over the bedding black, then whatever colour you want over that . That way the paint wil take the uV and is easily touched up. I'v ehad no problem with neoprene braking down in decades of use. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Neoprene wet suits breaks down in sun and air in time as well as open > cell for the most part. The sunlight on the glass reflected to the > edge where the neoprene is would break it down. A port light is > normaly small enough the spacers and the flexable glue used can flex > enough for the difference in expansion. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > I seem to recall someone posting here that an effective long > enduring > > seal was achieved using a scuba suit type neoprene ring forming a > > gasket on both sides, then glued and the securing plates etc. put > on. > > The problem is the difference in expansion rates between the glass > and > > the steel. Last I heard the neoprene setup was still dry as a bone. > > Should be able to find the thread here with the search engine. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > It can be ordered woth a ground edge so the glue will stick. It > is > > > normaly set with rubber spacers to center it ahd small ruber > balls to > > > set it in the with a even space to the steel flange. More goop on > the > > > outside and a SS cover ring to keep it from being blowen or > pushed > > > out. Ring is lightly held in place till glue sets up then > tightened > > > and glue trimed. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Laminated safety glass is affordable and availible from any > glass > > > shop cut to shape. I am wondering if any one has sandblasted the > > > outer edge of laminated safety glass to create a frit and glued > it in > > > place with sikkens. > > > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your > pocket: > > > mail, news, photos & more. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 14775|14072|2007-10-09 17:03:30|brentswain38|Re: Eighteen|I wonder if you could wire your fan motor directly to the input cord. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > Dear All, > Thanks for the pointers on pilot house windows.I looked at the info on > MBS which was a help Carl. Got a price for the stainless to trim round > the forehatch. At nearly 50 pounds sterling inc taxes I think I am > going to be relying on the marvelous qualities of modern paints and > using mild steel. For the windows too. I can get 40mm x 20mm x 4mm > unequal angle off the shelf. For the rounded corners I imagine I will > cut corners out of flat plate and remove the 40mm off the angle for > the length to be welded to these arcs. I will then half weld the > frames to the pilothouse before I cut the holes out and weld the other > side of the frames. > I found the answer to my overheating welder; the cooling fan was not > on the motor shaft. It is now and the welder lasted for about three > times as many rods before shutting down. Funny thing is the fan motor > shuts down at the same time, I'd have thought it would make sense for > it to continue to run and cool the windings to get the machine back > working sooner. > Jonathan. > | 14776|3134|2007-10-09 17:03:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 08:22:48PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > A few points on this process; > > First, when drilling 'plastic' dress your drill bit as you would when > driling brass etc. That is take the positive rake off your bit and > make it neutral. If you need to know how ask me. Heck, go ahead and write it up here - please! :) You might as well talk about the correct rake for drilling SS, too; it's absolutely amazing how much easier drilling becomes (and how much longer the bits stay sharp) with that one tiny change. > Second, the holes in the 'plastic' need to have clearance for the > fasteners, which accomodates a bit of movement due to unequal > expansion with out putting any stress on the hole edges. ...as well as providing a little space for any imprecision in hole alignment *and* - very important! - leaving room for some of the sealant. > Lastly, de burr the holes edges to remove any nicks which act as > concentrating points for stress and hence starters for any cracks > will may develop. All excellent advice, pol. Wish I'd known these things years ago, before wasting large amounts of money on screwing up good polycarbonate, Lexan, etc. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14777|14699|2007-10-09 17:10:14|polaris041|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|Thank you Brent; it's in the post! later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Send me the equivalent in Aussi cash , at the current exchange rate. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > I would love to buy your book Brent but have a real problem paying > > more in bank fees for a 'TT' than the price of the book. > > Is there any other way to make payment. > > Even buying Canadian dollars at the bank adds nearly the price of the > > book on top again. > > > later pol | 14778|14739|2007-10-09 18:10:56|Carl Anderson|Re: pilot house windows|I went with single tempered over laminated as there is a great reduction of strength by going to laminated. Laminated is only as strong as one thickness of the glass. So if you have 3/8" laminated what you have strength wise is one thickness of 3/16" glass. If it isn't tempered & laminated you have now gone down another 87% in strength as tempered is 8 times the strength of non-tempered according to Garibaldi. The outside glazing in my boat is 1/2" single piece tempered. the inside glazing is a single piece of 1/4" tempered. There is a 1/2" dead air space between the inside & outside glazing. The inside glazing is offset so it is the outside glazing that is glued to the steel frame of the window opening. Every nay-sayer about my windows (and there were VERY MANY of those creatures) that actually saw one window before installation had absolutely nothing to say after that. Carl ryan tinsley wrote: > > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated > glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks > for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some > demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many > layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used > in a double pane insulated window. > > Ryan > > : > Safety and tempered can be the same thing and when they give they > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a auto. Laminated > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets broke it may still be > filling the hole. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ryan tinsley wrote: > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. > > > > Ryan > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14779|14779|2007-10-09 18:12:05|Carl Anderson|window adhesive|With all the talk about pilothouse windows I have this to add. If anyone is planning on using the Sikaflex 296 window adhesive, I have one of the caulking guns for sale. It takes the 600ml foil pack sausages. I have two unused tips for it as well. I only used one tip for all the windows on my boat and cut it as described in the Sikaflex literature. It worked fine for me & is in new condition. Carl| 14780|14699|2007-10-10 07:12:23|Wally Paine|Re: Where to buy Brent's book?|So did I. --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > Polaris, > > I bought dollars in a travel agent's bureau de > change and put them in > an envelope and that worked fine. bureau de change > usually have > better rates then banks. > > Regards, > Ted > > ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/| 14781|3134|2007-10-10 07:12:33|polaris041|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|Sorry I think you got the wrong 'tiny URL' in my last answer. This is the right one http://tinyurl.com/286oyo Later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 08:22:48PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > A few points on this process; > > > > First, when drilling 'plastic' dress your drill bit as you would when > > driling brass etc. That is take the positive rake off your bit and > > make it neutral. If you need to know how ask me. > > Heck, go ahead and write it up here - please! :) You might as well talk > about the correct rake for drilling SS, too; it's absolutely amazing how > much easier drilling becomes (and how much longer the bits stay sharp) > with that one tiny change. > > > Second, the holes in the 'plastic' need to have clearance for the > > fasteners, which accomodates a bit of movement due to unequal > > expansion with out putting any stress on the hole edges. > > ...as well as providing a little space for any imprecision in hole > alignment *and* - very important! - leaving room for some of the > sealant. > > > Lastly, de burr the holes edges to remove any nicks which act as > > concentrating points for stress and hence starters for any cracks > > will may develop. > > All excellent advice, pol. Wish I'd known these things years ago, before > wasting large amounts of money on screwing up good polycarbonate, Lexan, > etc. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14782|3134|2007-10-10 07:12:35|polaris041|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|Ben; just refer to this page it will explain. http://tinyurl.com/3449ol The method to acheive this is to feed the drill bit on to the right hand coner of a bench ginder stone with a small radiused edge as though the drill bit were a spoke of that wheel and the cutting edge of the bit is aligned to the circumfurance of the wheel.It only needs a touch to take of that edge and create a small flat along the cutting face. As for stainless steel slow speed and PRESSURE make all the difference. Lubrication comes second to pressure. As long as that edge is cutting you are ahead. Even to the poit of applying pressure before you apply the power, and withdraw quickly. Once that bit starts slipping on the ss without cutting you have lost. I have heard of people re sharpening cheap tungsten masonary dits with success, but I have never tried it. I'm sure google will fill in the gaps in my description. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 08:22:48PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > A few points on this process; > > > > First, when drilling 'plastic' dress your drill bit as you would when > > driling brass etc. That is take the positive rake off your bit and > > make it neutral. If you need to know how ask me. > > Heck, go ahead and write it up here - please! :) You might as well talk > about the correct rake for drilling SS, too; it's absolutely amazing how > much easier drilling becomes (and how much longer the bits stay sharp) > with that one tiny change. > > > Second, the holes in the 'plastic' need to have clearance for the > > fasteners, which accomodates a bit of movement due to unequal > > expansion with out putting any stress on the hole edges. > > ...as well as providing a little space for any imprecision in hole > alignment *and* - very important! - leaving room for some of the > sealant. > > > Lastly, de burr the holes edges to remove any nicks which act as > > concentrating points for stress and hence starters for any cracks > > will may develop. > > All excellent advice, pol. Wish I'd known these things years ago, before > wasting large amounts of money on screwing up good polycarbonate, Lexan, > etc. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14783|14783|2007-10-10 07:12:41|seeratlas|A good read for beginning cruisers|Found this by accident while looking for something else. A good read for those building a boat for the open sea. Don't be too surprised if you've heard a lot of similar opinions on this board-which is a Good thing:) enjoy seer| 14784|14739|2007-10-10 07:12:49|seeratlas|Re: pilot house windows|I'll second the polycarb hazing problem. I got talked into putting them into the dodger I had installed. you end up with shower door glass. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Polycarbonate fogs up so badly in three years that you can't see > anything out of them.You can bring them temporarily nearly back( still > foggy) with plastic polishes like novus , etc, but that is only good > for a few months.It is tougher, so I used it in cabinside windows that > I use only for light( saves the need for curtains) but use plexy for > pilothose side windows and glass for the front ones , which have wipers. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > > > Has anyone considered polycarbonate? > > > > Wally Paine > > --- ryan tinsley wrote: > > > > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a > > > frit over laminated glass with a ground edge which > > > is cheaper and readily available. Thanks for the > > > response I am just trying to sort this out. I have > > > some demolition experience with bullet proof glass > > > which is simply many layers of laminated glass. I > > > believe laminated glass could also be used in a > > > double pane insulated window. > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > : > > > Safety and tempered can be the same thing > > > and when they give they > > > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a > > > auto. Laminated > > > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets > > > broke it may still be > > > filling the hole. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ryan tinsley > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass > > > instead of tempered. > > > > > > > > Ryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - > > > their life, your story. > > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good > http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html > > > | 14785|14739|2007-10-10 07:13:00|ryan tinsley|Re: pilot house windows|Carl thanks for the response that was exactly what I was fishing for. The windows sound beautiful but also very expensive. I am struggling to grasp why, "Laminated is only as strong as one thickness of the glass" if that is the case what is the purpose of laminated glass. Ryan Carl Anderson wrote: I went with single tempered over laminated as there is a great reduction of strength by going to laminated. Laminated is only as strong as one thickness of the glass. So if you have 3/8" laminated what you have strength wise is one thickness of 3/16" glass. If it isn't tempered & laminated you have now gone down another 87% in strength as tempered is 8 times the strength of non-tempered according to Garibaldi. The outside glazing in my boat is 1/2" single piece tempered. the inside glazing is a single piece of 1/4" tempered. There is a 1/2" dead air space between the inside & outside glazing. The inside glazing is offset so it is the outside glazing that is glued to the steel frame of the window opening. Every nay-sayer about my windows (and there were VERY MANY of those creatures) that actually saw one window before installation had absolutely nothing to say after that. Carl ryan tinsley wrote: > > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated > glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks > for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some > demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many > layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used > in a double pane insulated window. > > Ryan > > : > Safety and tempered can be the same thing and when they give they > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a auto. Laminated > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets broke it may still be > filling the hole. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ryan tinsley wrote: > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. > > > > Ryan > > --------------------------------- > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14786|14739|2007-10-10 12:41:15|Carl Anderson|Re: pilot house windows|The advantage of laminated glass is the plastic sheeting that is between the glass layers. It will hold the broken glass together (such as an automobile windshield in the case of a collision). Thats all. Carl ryan tinsley wrote: > > > Carl thanks for the response that was exactly what I was fishing for. > The windows sound beautiful but also very expensive. I am struggling to > grasp why, "Laminated is only as strong as one thickness of the glass" > if that is the case what is the purpose of laminated glass. > > Ryan > > Carl Anderson > > wrote: > I went with single tempered over laminated as there is a great reduction > of strength by going to laminated. Laminated is only as strong as one > thickness of the glass. So if you have 3/8" laminated what you have > strength wise is one thickness of 3/16" glass. If it isn't tempered & > laminated you have now gone down another 87% in strength as tempered is > 8 times the strength of non-tempered according to Garibaldi. > > The outside glazing in my boat is 1/2" single piece tempered. the > inside glazing is a single piece of 1/4" tempered. There is a 1/2" dead > air space between the inside & outside glazing. The inside glazing is > offset so it is the outside glazing that is glued to the steel frame of > the window opening. > > Every nay-sayer about my windows (and there were VERY MANY of those > creatures) that actually saw one window before installation had > absolutely nothing to say after that. > > Carl > > ryan tinsley wrote: > > > > > > Why then would someone chose tempered glass with a frit over laminated > > glass with a ground edge which is cheaper and readily available. Thanks > > for the response I am just trying to sort this out. I have some > > demolition experience with bullet proof glass which is simply many > > layers of laminated glass. I believe laminated glass could also be used > > in a double pane insulated window. > > > > Ryan > > > > : > > Safety and tempered can be the same thing and when they give they > > explode in small peices like the side wondows in a auto. Laminated > > safety glass is like your windshield if it gets broke it may still be > > filling the hole. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , ryan tinsley > wrote: > > > > > > Is there a disavantage to using safety glass instead of tempered. > > > > > > Ryan > > > > --------------------------------- > > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who > knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14787|14779|2007-10-10 12:42:13|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: window adhesive|Carl, I live in FL and have just replaced all of my Wheelhouse windows. It is similar to Hurricane glass as they use an Isotope for the Laminate instead of the Polycarbonate. I was able to get a good deal on the Glass 4'x8' sheets and had to have it cut with a Water Jet. Any way being in the Yachting industry this new glass was Approved by the IMO (governing body over ABS, MCA, etc) Any way these were the left over test sheets that was used for approval. They tested out at over 100,000 psi over a 4x8 sheet (the test window frame of 1" thick steel gave way before the glass did so the testing was halted). In the shipping industry ABS (American Breau of Shipping) only requires 40,000psi. Meaning that, by rights you would loose the Wheelhouse before the glass gave way and by that time your window's would be the last thing on your mind. The new glue use comes from Switzerland and the glue is the only thing holding in the Glass with a min of 3/4" flange for smaller window's and up to 1.5" for window's larger than 3x3. This Glue tested out up to 21psi negative pressure (fuel tanks are only tested to 4psi). The main difference between this glue and the Sikaflex is that the chemicals in the Sika will start to delaminate the glass (on the edges) over a period of about 5 years. This is the main problem. Unfortunately I don't have the info for the glue infront of me but if interested I can get it for you. The Glue comes in the standard 600ml Sausage and any gun will work. On my boat the glass that I got is a bit over kill as it is 5/8" and 13 windows (largest being 25"x25") weighing in at 550lbs. Our boat is not of the Origami Style, but a steel Bruce Roberts, Custom 532 Stretched 3' giving is 56' and 80,000lbs. As it takes us 5500lbs to change the water line 1" the weight of the glass makes such a small difference you can't notice it. I am very happy with the Glass and gives me peace of mind as it is also rated to stop a 45 Magnum at point blank range. (Don't know if I would be willing to try in the event of Pirates!!) We have just completed our trip down the East coast and got into some rough weather, steady 35 with higher gusts (read 57 in one squall) and 9-12' seas, and we took a couple of pretty large waves, 4' of blue water crashing into the Wheelhouse. What a difference and peace of Mind!!!!!! I know I have kind of gotten off topic, but the main thing was to Do the research and be careful with what type of glass you are going to use with Sika. Check with some of the vendors that are installing Glass in the Marine Industry. Make sure that you have a min. 1/16" clearance between the Glass and the Flanges (you can use small pieces of rubber to keep the glass off the Steel while the glue dries) and min. 1/4" - 5/16" around the edges to allow for expansion. Hope this helps Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] window adhesive With all the talk about pilothouse windows I have this to add. If anyone is planning on using the Sikaflex 296 window adhesive, I have one of the caulking guns for sale. It takes the 600ml foil pack sausages. I have two unused tips for it as well. I only used one tip for all the windows on my boat and cut it as described in the Sikaflex literature. It worked fine for me & is in new condition. Carl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14788|14788|2007-10-10 12:43:41|audeojude|Fishing in BVI's|I found some follow up info on that link that someone sent about the guy in the bvi's that got busted for fishing. I found this in a publication out of the USVI.. I think I would stay out of of the BVI's.. they are going to take a tourism hit for this I bet.. On Monday, September 24th Deborah Barton and Richard Baker were out for a day on the water in the British Virgin Islands on their 36 foot live aboard trawler "Mambo". They were trolling with a cheap spinning reel and light tackle when they were boarded by Conservation and Fisheries from the B.V.I. and arrested for illegal entry and fishing without a license. They were escorted to Road Town, Tortola and not formally charged until 7:30pm on Monday evening. They were in court facing the magistrate at 9:30 the following morning. There were virtually no business hours between the time that they were charged and when they were in court for them to have contacted a barrister. Being by nature very honest people and not understanding the penalty that they were facing, Richard and Debbie plead guilty to the charges. Debbie was found guilty of illegal entry and fined $1,000. Richard was found guilty of illegal entry and fishing without a license. The combined fine for Richard was $46,000. In lieu of the $46,000, Richard was sentenced to 12 months in prison in Tortola. Richard is now in a high security cell in Her Majesty's Prison in Tortola. Richard and Debbie are a very nice semi retired couple of modest means living in St. Thomas Virgin Islands. Richard is a former US Army paratrooper and is retired from the Washington DC Police Department. They were relatively new to boating and have often made jokes about their inability to fish. The sentence that Richard received was harsher than any received thus far by any of the commercial fishermen who have faced the same charges in the BVI (fishing rights have been a long standing issue between USVI fishermen and the BVI). Debbie is probably going to have to cash in an IRA, the only money that either of them has set aside for their retirement, in order to get Richard out of jail. Whether or not the fine is paid and Richard is released, this event will have a lasting negative impact on their future and their future financial stability. Magistrate Valerie Stevens of the Magistrates Court in Tortola implied at Richard's sentencing that she wanted to send a message to the USVI that too many US Virgin Islanders are fishing in the British Virgin Islands and that it needs to stop. This message was made all too clear to US Virgin Islands fishermen by actions taken by the British Virgin Islands over the last few years without it having to be reiterated by the grossly unfair sentence of someone not at all related to the fishing industry. Most if not all of our fishermen are aware of the BVI fishing license law, and most try to obey the law. Richard Baker is not a commercial fisherman, nor is he a serious recreational fisherman. To penalize a cruiser of modest means because he had basically stumbled into the fray is outrageously unjust. Whatever her intended message was, the message that we are hearing from this sentence is that Americans should not expect justice or fair treatment in the British Virgin Islands. It is illegal to fish in the British Virgin Islands without a fishing license. This law applies equally to casual recreational fishing and commercial fishing. If you have a fishing line in the water in the BVI and have not cleared in, you are breaking two laws and will be penalized.| 14789|14789|2007-10-10 12:44:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Expensive fishing trip|Seer, Jim et all, My penultimate statement "Quit lying to us and we will quit telling the truth about you" was actally a stolen quote uttered by a British MP upon return from the states in refrence to the BIG PUSH for genetically modified "food" ANYWAY, I believe we are all on the right track, lets drop this thread, CHUCK ANY AND ALL POLITICS and get back to BOATS. Enuf said, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 14790|14783|2007-10-10 12:45:01|Ray|Re: A good read for beginning cruisers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Found this by accident while looking for something else. A good read > for those building a boat for the open sea. Don't be too surprised if > you've heard a lot of similar opinions on this board-which is a Good > thing:) > > enjoy > seer > OK Seer - how 'bout ya actually provide the reference? Geeze - that post is like describing how wonderful chocolate-mint ice-cream is to a hot sweaty kid, and then walkin' away. :-)| 14791|14783|2007-10-10 14:08:33|seeratlas|Re: A good read for beginning cruisers REALLY :)|LOL , sorry, for some reason it didn't "take" . let me try it again. You guys with 36's set up as cutters will like his conclusion:) http://members.optusnet.com.au/coastalcruising/introcruising.htm seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Found this by accident while looking for something else. A good read > > for those building a boat for the open sea. Don't be too surprised if > > you've heard a lot of similar opinions on this board-which is a Good > > thing:) > > > > enjoy > > seer > > > > OK Seer - how 'bout ya actually provide the reference? Geeze - that > post is like describing how wonderful chocolate-mint ice-cream is to a > hot sweaty kid, and then walkin' away. :-) > | 14792|14779|2007-10-10 14:10:06|seeratlas|Re: window adhesive|Thanks a ton for that info. That glass opens up a few more options for me :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > Carl, > I live in FL and have just replaced all of my Wheelhouse windows. It is similar to Hurricane glass as they use an Isotope for the Laminate instead of the Polycarbonate. I was able to get a good deal on the Glass 4'x8' sheets and had to have it cut with a Water Jet. Any way being in the Yachting industry this new glass was Approved by the IMO (governing body over ABS, MCA, etc) Any way these were the left over test sheets that was used for approval. They tested out at over 100,000 psi over a 4x8 sheet (the test window frame of 1" thick steel gave way before the glass did so the testing was halted). In the shipping industry ABS (American Breau of Shipping) only requires 40,000psi. Meaning that, by rights you would loose the Wheelhouse before the glass gave way and by that time your window's would be the last thing on your mind. The new glue use comes from Switzerland and the glue is the only thing holding in the Glass with a min of 3/4" flange for smaller window's and up to 1.5" for window's larger than 3x3. This Glue tested out up to 21psi negative pressure (fuel tanks are only tested to 4psi). The main difference between this glue and the Sikaflex is that the chemicals in the Sika will start to delaminate the glass (on the edges) over a period of about 5 years. This is the main problem. Unfortunately I don't have the info for the glue infront of me but if interested I can get it for you. The Glue comes in the standard 600ml Sausage and any gun will work. > > On my boat the glass that I got is a bit over kill as it is 5/8" and 13 windows (largest being 25"x25") weighing in at 550lbs. Our boat is not of the Origami Style, but a steel Bruce Roberts, Custom 532 Stretched 3' giving is 56' and 80,000lbs. As it takes us 5500lbs to change the water line 1" the weight of the glass makes such a small difference you can't notice it. > > I am very happy with the Glass and gives me peace of mind as it is also rated to stop a 45 Magnum at point blank range. (Don't know if I would be willing to try in the event of Pirates!!) We have just completed our trip down the East coast and got into some rough weather, steady 35 with higher gusts (read 57 in one squall) and 9-12' seas, and we took a couple of pretty large waves, 4' of blue water crashing into the Wheelhouse. What a difference and peace of Mind!!!!!! > > I know I have kind of gotten off topic, but the main thing was to Do the research and be careful with what type of glass you are going to use with Sika. Check with some of the vendors that are installing Glass in the Marine Industry. Make sure that you have a min. 1/16" clearance between the Glass and the Flanges (you can use small pieces of rubber to keep the glass off the Steel while the glue dries) and min. 1/4" - 5/16" around the edges to allow for expansion. > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] window adhesive > > > With all the talk about pilothouse windows I have this to add. If anyone > is planning on using the Sikaflex 296 window adhesive, I have one of the > caulking guns for sale. It takes the 600ml foil pack sausages. I have > two unused tips for it as well. I only used one tip for all the windows > on my boat and cut it as described in the Sikaflex literature. It > worked fine for me & is in new condition. > > Carl > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14793|14779|2007-10-10 14:29:15|Carl Anderson|Re: window adhesive|The adhesive shouldn't be at the edge of the glass if your installation is done properly, only the back side (between the glass & the window frame). Another compound is used to seal the window edges & adhesive joint. Sika states in their literature to seal the edges of the window with silicon if you are using laminated glass. If you are using tempered then they recommend Sikaflex 291 adhesive/sealant (that is what I used on my boat). As for the clearance you would have to check with the adhesive manufacturer for their recommendations (Sika recommends 1/4" between glass & frame for sizes up to 4' on the longest side). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > I know I have kind of gotten off topic, but the main thing was to Do the > research and be careful with what type of glass you are going to use > with Sika. Check with some of the vendors that are installing Glass in > the Marine Industry. Make sure that you have a min. 1/16" clearance > between the Glass and the Flanges (you can use small pieces of rubber to > keep the glass off the Steel while the glue dries) and min. 1/4" - 5/16" > around the edges to allow for expansion. > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > | 14794|14187|2007-10-10 18:04:17|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in exceptionally > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > wrote: > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > > are his remarks: > > > > Gary, > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > > so please refer to this. > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > > only. > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > > municipal systems. > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > > all over the country every single day! > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > Geoff Trott > > General Manager > > Eos Design LLC. > > Portland, ME > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > > SE Asia. > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > > not > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > > up, you > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > sufficient to > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > > when you > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > > 1,000 > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > bacteria of a > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > Infected > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > > Ricki. > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > considering > > > a afixing an > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > > collect liquids - > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > > contemplated running > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > when > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > > directly to crank on > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > > together? > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > > changed the > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > > handle > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > > when > > > not > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > > to > > > put a > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > > for > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > > it ,and it > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > dump.Now > > > to > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > > square > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > > break > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14795|14779|2007-10-10 19:12:43|David A. Frantz|Re: window adhesive|Hi Carl; Is it possible to provide more specifics such as the manufacture, trade name and other marks? If this has already been covered in the thread thn please excuse me. Dave Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > > Carl, > I live in FL and have just replaced all of my Wheelhouse windows. It > is similar to Hurricane glass as they use an Isotope for the Laminate > instead of the Polycarbonate. I was able to get a good deal on the > Glass 4'x8' sheets and had to have it cut with a Water Jet. Any way > being in the Yachting industry this new glass was Approved by the IMO > (governing body over ABS, MCA, etc) Any way these were the left over > test sheets that was used for approval. They tested out at over > 100,000 psi over a 4x8 sheet (the test window frame of 1" thick steel > gave way before the glass did so the testing was halted). In the > shipping industry ABS (American Breau of Shipping) only requires > 40,000psi. Meaning that, by rights you would loose the Wheelhouse > before the glass gave way and by that time your window's would be the > last thing on your mind. The new glue use comes from Switzerland and > the glue is the only thing holding in the Glass with a min of 3/4" > flange for smaller window's and up to 1.5" for window's larger than > 3x3. This Glue tested out up to 21psi negative pressure (fuel tanks > are only tested to 4psi). The main difference between this glue and > the Sikaflex is that the chemicals in the Sika will start to > delaminate the glass (on the edges) over a period of about 5 years. > This is the main problem. Unfortunately I don't have the info for the > glue infront of me but if interested I can get it for you. The Glue > comes in the standard 600ml Sausage and any gun will work. > > On my boat the glass that I got is a bit over kill as it is 5/8" and > 13 windows (largest being 25"x25") weighing in at 550lbs. Our boat is > not of the Origami Style, but a steel Bruce Roberts, Custom 532 > Stretched 3' giving is 56' and 80,000lbs. As it takes us 5500lbs to > change the water line 1" the weight of the glass makes such a small > difference you can't notice it. > > I am very happy with the Glass and gives me peace of mind as it is > also rated to stop a 45 Magnum at point blank range. (Don't know if I > would be willing to try in the event of Pirates!!) We have just > completed our trip down the East coast and got into some rough > weather, steady 35 with higher gusts (read 57 in one squall) and 9-12' > seas, and we took a couple of pretty large waves, 4' of blue water > crashing into the Wheelhouse. What a difference and peace of Mind!!!!!! > > I know I have kind of gotten off topic, but the main thing was to Do > the research and be careful with what type of glass you are going to > use with Sika. Check with some of the vendors that are installing > Glass in the Marine Industry. Make sure that you have a min. 1/16" > clearance between the Glass and the Flanges (you can use small pieces > of rubber to keep the glass off the Steel while the glue dries) and > min. 1/4" - 5/16" around the edges to allow for expansion. > > Hope this helps > > Cameron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 5:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] window adhesive > > With all the talk about pilothouse windows I have this to add. If anyone > is planning on using the Sikaflex 296 window adhesive, I have one of the > caulking guns for sale. It takes the 600ml foil pack sausages. I have > two unused tips for it as well. I only used one tip for all the windows > on my boat and cut it as described in the Sikaflex literature. It > worked fine for me & is in new condition. > > Carl > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14796|14796|2007-10-10 19:17:01|seeratlas|"Tide Table? What's a Tide Table? :)|http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3UrO4NM3A8k&NR=1 makes you think about that twin keeler eh? :) seer| 14797|3134|2007-10-10 19:29:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Ports Neoprene etc.|On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 05:04:35AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Sorry I think you got the wrong 'tiny URL' in my last answer. > This is the right one > http://tinyurl.com/286oyo Thanks, pol - good stuff. I learned the trick for SS when I took a welding course a while back, where the teacher was a retired Navy welder who had been teaching welding for 30 years (and who retired this year - a loss. One of the best teachers of any kind that I've ever met.) For anyone who wants to know, the instructor had me shape the tip to be somewhat concave from the point back. Whereas before, I had to put a bit of muscle into the drill press to get it to go through the material, afterwards, I could do it with just slight finger pressure - and the bit lasted much longer between sharpenings. Despite many years of experience working with all kinds of materials, including several years of regularly using the machine shop at Hughes Aircraft, I'd never heard of this before. Oh, and these are some of the most detailed bit-sharpening instructions I've ever seen (from rec.crafts.metalworking - how else?): http://www.coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1906449 -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14798|14798|2007-10-10 19:30:48|seeratlas|"Noise? what's that Noise? maybe someone should go up and look"|http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GltUR7JOCH0&NR=1 The family of four had lost power due to a line fouled in the prop (also referred to as a wheel.) When I asked why didn't they sail, they indicated that the sails were stuck (hum, all three?) To make matters worse, these folks had their VHF and Nav instruments below at a traditional nav station, not at the helm, where they can be used in an emergency. above from the captain's log of the rescue boat that towed em back into port after coast guard got em off :) I would have liked to see the damage to the boat, wonder what she was made of. seer| 14799|14799|2007-10-10 19:33:29|seeratlas|"Ok, down anchor"|http://captrichardrodriguez.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html man this was close :)| 14800|14800|2007-10-10 20:53:10|seeratlas|For Those Who Think Big Ships will see you in time....|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PrFkFnPt_o&mode=related&search= ok, that's the last one for tonight and a sobering thought...someone sure was awake here....on both ships...yeah right.. seer| 14801|14641|2007-10-11 01:41:25|Gordon Schnell|Re: BOATBUILDING|Forgive me for jumping into your discussion....and you may have tried this technique yourselves, already...but what I did when I was first exploring the origami construction was to buy a small roll of 0.020" brass shim stock and cut the plates directly from Brents plans. I soldered the seams as you would weld them and came out with a very fair and clean model of the Brent 40. That is what convinced me to build one. Gord sae140 wrote: > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > using plywood and plaster. > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > think about it. > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > it ? > > Colin > > > | 14802|14796|2007-10-11 08:07:02|edward_stoneuk|Re: "Tide Table? What's a Tide Table? :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3UrO4NM3A8k&NR=1 > > makes you think about that twin keeler eh? :) > > seer > Seer, I expect they were careening it to scrape the barnacles off. 8^) As you can see they were successful as there are no barnacles on it. Regards, Ted| 14803|14796|2007-10-11 12:00:16|seeratlas|Re: "Tide Table? What's a Tide Table? :)|hehehe :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3UrO4NM3A8k&NR=1 > > > > makes you think about that twin keeler eh? :) > > > > seer > > > > Seer, > > I expect they were careening it to scrape the barnacles off. 8^) As you > can see they were successful as there are no barnacles on it. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 14804|14804|2007-10-11 12:05:14|seeratlas|Materials Costs-declining dollar|http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071011/economy.html?.v=2| 14805|14641|2007-10-11 13:53:13|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: BOATBUILDING|The main reason to go with multiple chines is to duplicate modern hull shapes. Look at a single chine origami hull. The 1/2 hull flattens out in section from the chines towards the ends. This limits you pretty much to "V" shaped hull sections and older, more traditional boat designs. In a 2 chine hull, a funny thing happens. You get a cone at each chine end, just like in single chine origami. However, you also get a third cone, created by the interaction between the 2 chine cones, which radiates inward from the ends towards the chines. This "reversed" cone allows you to create "U" shaped hull sections, as found in modern designs. Greg sae140 wrote: > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > using plywood and plaster. > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > think about it. > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > it ? > > Colin > > > | 14806|14804|2007-10-11 14:41:19|brentswain38|Re: Materials Costs-declining dollar|Unfortunately our dollar is only rising against the US $ and is basically steady agianst the rest of the world where most of our steel comes from. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071011/economy.html?.v=2 > | 14807|14187|2007-10-11 14:43:28|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to produce. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in exceptionally > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > > > only. > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > General Manager > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > > > SE Asia. > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > > > not > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > > > up, you > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > sufficient to > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > > > when you > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > > > 1,000 > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > bacteria of a > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > Infected > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > > > Ricki. > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > considering > > > > a afixing an > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > > > contemplated running > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > > when > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > > > changed the > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > > > handle > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > > > when > > > > not > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > > > to > > > > put a > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > > > for > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > dump.Now > > > > to > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > > > square > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > > > break > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14808|14808|2007-10-11 16:32:13|seeratlas|High Tensile Steel|I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned for expedition research. seer| 14809|14187|2007-10-11 16:37:44|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Ahh, I was thinking the same thing. The gasketed 'air proof' toilet seat and lid looks like an easy modification of existing 'equipment'. The 'bowl' with liquid separator, I would think could be readily made up in a clay form with reinforced resin. Other than affixing the trap door for solids, the composting tank below could be made out of any suitable nylon or stainless tub with the inside lower surface shaped (as you suggested)into a bowl to ensure that the entire contents of the composter would be shifted by a circular 'stirrer' activated by a crank. If this is all there is, how do we get to 1k$ or in other units 1500 $ and a lot more!! Seems pretty extravagant. LOL I can see making one using one of the tubs for the water "shop vac" units out there, utilize the clamping system to hold the seat structure on top , add a gasketed hose to a remote liquid collector, put in a large stainless 'mixxing bowl' sized to the tank, fabricate your matching stainless 'crank stirrer', set up a small vent and voila. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and > plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but > very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to > produce. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in exceptionally > > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and > discuss > > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I > will > > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just > this > > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen > topic > > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a > hazard > > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an > illusion > > > > only. > > > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine > that if > > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary > for > > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting > the > > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in > short > > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). > The > > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as > the US > > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment > unless > > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our > rivers > > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > > General Manager > > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system > seen in > > > > SE Asia. > > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are > you > > > > not > > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > > > > up, you > > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > sufficient to > > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > > > > when you > > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > > > > 1,000 > > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > > bacteria of a > > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > > Infected > > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and > Lewis, > > > > Ricki. > > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, > so why > > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > > considering > > > > > a afixing an > > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant > reservoir to > > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > > > > contemplated running > > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > > > when > > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > > > > changed the > > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and > welded the > > > > > handle > > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > > > > when > > > > > not > > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > > > > to > > > > > put a > > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > be no > > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake > hole > > > > > for > > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > > dump.Now > > > > > to > > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > > > > square > > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > > > > break > > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14810|14808|2007-10-11 19:02:09|Wesley Cox|Re: High Tensile Steel|Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all common high strength steels are very close to the same modulus of elasticity. The rigidity of a material is directly proportional to the modulus of elasticity. Without an increase in rigidity, assuming the same density, I don't see how there would be a savings in weight for a structural item. Here's an example, http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_strength.htm. The tensile and yield strengths of the steels vary greatly but all have identical modulus of elasticity. If it does have a higher modulus of elasticity, it would be possible to save weight, though it would have to be much higher to make a boat much lighter just based on the physical properties of the steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: [origamiboats] High Tensile Steel I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned for expedition research. seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14811|14808|2007-10-11 19:17:35|polaris041|Re: High Tensile Steel|Wouldn't thinner sheets account for reduced weight? later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all common high strength steels are very close to the same modulus of elasticity. The rigidity of a material is directly proportional to the modulus of elasticity. Without an increase in rigidity, assuming the same density, I don't see how there would be a savings in weight for a structural item. Here's an example, http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_s trength.htm. The tensile and yield strengths of the steels vary greatly but all have identical modulus of elasticity. > > If it does have a higher modulus of elasticity, it would be possible to save weight, though it would have to be much higher to make a boat much lighter just based on the physical properties of the steel. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] High Tensile Steel > > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > for expedition research. > > seer > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14812|14808|2007-10-11 20:03:07|peter_d_wiley|Re: High Tensile Steel|Thin steel is a right shit to weld fair and you've got no reserve for corrosion. Also how much weight are you going to save? IIRC steel is 7800kg per cubic metre more or less. A 1mm decrease in thickness for a hull is not going to save you a lot. Personally I wouldn't go below 4mm. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > for expedition research. > > seer > | 14813|14187|2007-10-11 21:10:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead improvements|The airhead isn't injection molded either. It is rotational molded. An injection mold that size would cost several hundred thousand, and you'd need a 500 ton machine to run it. A rotation mold would cost probably 10 thousand. How many parts do you need to sell before you make a profit? Have you seen the Walker Bay dingy? The mold cost over 1 million, and it runs in the worlds largest molding machine. You probably won't see any competitors made that way, ever. However they claim to have sold over 60,000 so far. That would make it the largest fleet of a single design out there, by far. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 2:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to produce. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in exceptionally > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and discuss > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. Here > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I will > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it has > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also understand > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just this > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern diminished. > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen topic > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion > > > only. > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine that if > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary for > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting the > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the children > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for instance: > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in short > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low temperatures > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction occurs > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures but > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of round > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing the > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). The > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be found > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as the US > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* The > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage treatment" > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment unless > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case with our > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small amount of > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our rivers > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. It > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > General Manager > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system seen in > > > SE Asia. > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are you > > > not > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has been my > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts heating > > > up, you > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > sufficient to > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no matter > > > when you > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain up to > > > 1,000 > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > bacteria of a > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > Infected > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and Lewis, > > > Ricki. > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, so why > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life when it > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > considering > > > > a afixing an > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant reservoir to > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > > > contemplated running > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > > when > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > > > changed the > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and welded the > > > > handle > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit horizontally > > > when > > > > not > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I plan > > > to > > > > put a > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will be no > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake hole > > > > for > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > dump.Now > > > > to > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 inch > > > > square > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > > > break > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14814|14808|2007-10-11 21:14:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: High Tensile Steel|Wesley, You have it right. I had fun with a young engineer once over this. We built a press frame that flexed to much. He went looking for a higher tensile steel to make it stiffer. He learned a lesson he never forgot that day. The weight savings come if you are building a conventional structure with ribs. The ribs can be thinner and the plate can be thinner. However you have a hell of a lot parts to cut, form and weld to do it. So it doesn't mean much for origami builders. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Cox" To: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] High Tensile Steel > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all common high strength > steels are very close to the same modulus of elasticity. The rigidity of > a material is directly proportional to the modulus of elasticity. Without > an increase in rigidity, assuming the same density, I don't see how there > would be a savings in weight for a structural item. Here's an example, > http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_strength.htm. > The tensile and yield strengths of the steels vary greatly but all have > identical modulus of elasticity. > > If it does have a higher modulus of elasticity, it would be possible to > save weight, though it would have to be much higher to make a boat much > lighter just based on the physical properties of the steel. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] High Tensile Steel > > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > for expedition research. > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: > 10/11/2007 9:11 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14815|14808|2007-10-11 21:15:38|seeratlas|Re: High Tensile Steel|Here's the datasheets . you can check the two versions of 700, looks stiffer than hell to me. I think the 60 was built using same thickness as brent's 36. http://www.ssabdirect.com/templates/Page____6276.aspx seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Thin steel is a right shit to weld fair and you've got no reserve for > corrosion. Also how much weight are you going to save? IIRC steel is > 7800kg per cubic metre more or less. A 1mm decrease in thickness for a > hull is not going to save you a lot. > > Personally I wouldn't go below 4mm. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile > steel. > > > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > > for expedition research. > > > > seer > > > | 14816|14808|2007-10-11 22:02:40|Wesley Cox|Re: High Tensile Steel|Agreed. My point was that thinner steel, of the same rigidity, which is proportional to the modulus of elasticity and not proportional to tensile or yield strength, would result in a weaker boat. ----- Original Message ----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: High Tensile Steel Thin steel is a right shit to weld fair and you've got no reserve for corrosion. Also how much weight are you going to save? IIRC steel is 7800kg per cubic metre more or less. A 1mm decrease in thickness for a hull is not going to save you a lot. Personally I wouldn't go below 4mm. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > for expedition research. > > seer > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14817|14808|2007-10-11 22:12:50|seeratlas|Re: High Tensile Steel|-Here's how to weld it : http://www.thefabricator.com/CuttingWeldPrep/CuttingWeldPrep_Article.cfm?ID=1196 seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Here's the datasheets . you can check the two versions of 700, looks > stiffer than hell to me. I think the 60 was built using same thickness > as brent's 36. > > http://www.ssabdirect.com/templates/Page____6276.aspx > > > seer > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Thin steel is a right shit to weld fair and you've got no reserve for > > corrosion. Also how much weight are you going to save? IIRC steel is > > 7800kg per cubic metre more or less. A 1mm decrease in thickness for a > > hull is not going to save you a lot. > > > > Personally I wouldn't go below 4mm. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > > > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile > > steel. > > > > > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > > > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > > > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > > > > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > > > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > > > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > > > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > > > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > > > > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > > > for expedition research. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 14818|14641|2007-10-12 05:00:53|sae140|Re: BOATBUILDING|My question about rule of thumb re: single chine location was originally stimulated by thoughts about a deeper 'V' section producing slightly better directional stability and a tad more useable headroom - although in the process such a section would have moved away (inwards) from that of the original multi-chined/rounded-section model being used, so I would effectively be screwing around with positional displacement in the process. That was the point at which my bottle/ pride of independence gave way. Bugger trusting years of work and many thousands of beer-coupons to what would have been, in effect, a prototype design. Your comments appreciated Greg, I'll investigate this 'third-cone' phenomenon some more if and when I make any more models - although for all sorts of practical reasons I've decided to stick with a known proven design for an actual build. 'best, Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > > The main reason to go with multiple chines is to duplicate modern hull > shapes. Look at a single chine origami hull. The 1/2 hull flattens out in > section from the chines towards the ends. This limits you pretty much to > "V" shaped hull sections and older, more traditional boat designs. > > In a 2 chine hull, a funny thing happens. You get a cone at each chine end, > just like in single chine origami. However, you also get a third cone, > created by the interaction between the 2 chine cones, which radiates inward > from the ends towards the chines. This "reversed" cone allows you to create > "U" shaped hull sections, as found in modern designs. > > Greg > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > > using plywood and plaster. > > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > > think about it. > > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > > it ? > > > > Colin > > > > > > > | 14819|14819|2007-10-12 10:25:00|Aaron|Steel supplier?|Someone from a metal cutting group posted this sight for buying sheets of steel. They have Regular a36 and marine grades listed. www.chapelsteel.com/a36.html| 14820|14641|2007-10-12 13:32:13|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: BOATBUILDING|One of the local yacht designers wrote in Metal Boat about the limitations in hull shape in origami. He designs conventional single chine boats, and had found that when he tried to do these single chine boats in origami, the results were very limited in shape. From this he concluded that origami was limited in what could be built. Did he consider that what he was observing was not due to origami, but rather due to the single chine? I first noticed the "third cone" 20+ years ago cruising Mexico, experimenting with different origami hull forms. I'd noticed that with a single chine, you were pretty limited in hull shape. There was a reasons single chine origami boats tended to look the same. Narrow ends, short water-line, spoon bow, buoyancy carried high. The problem was that the single chine gave you no way to control the hull shape in section at the ends, limiting what could be built. You can control the hull in profile and plan, but not in section. Adding the second "chine" solved this, by allowing you to control the section shape at the ends. With two cones, you can change the angle between the cones and this will change the curvature of the sections, right out to the ends of the boat. This means you can build just about any boat you want with origami. Also 20+ years ago, I had occasion to talk with Gary Curtis about hull shape after he published an article about origami. I'd noticed that Gary was doing multi-chine designs and he confirmed my own observations about section shape and the limitations of single chine. Lundstrom was also doing multi-chine designs. From what I could find, before any origami boats were built here on the West Coast. Why multi-chine? Take just about any proven design, and by adding a second chine you can get a very close approximation in origami. Not just in profile and plan, but in section as well. Long water lines, greater hull speed, greater interior volume, buoyancy down low, carried out to the ends. These become practical in origami with a second chine because you can control the shape in all 3 dimensions, out to the ends of the boat. I later added a third chine to support bilge keels. I found that not only did this strengthen the hull, it allowed one to fine tune the shape, to better align the weight, buoyancy and floatation, both upright and heeled. Origami is an approximation, and the third chine allows for correction of the errors that result from this approximation. Yes, you can trim a boat by shifting weight once she is built, but this can result in problems like hobby horsing. Better to have everything lined up before she is built. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING My question about rule of thumb re: single chine location was originally stimulated by thoughts about a deeper 'V' section producing slightly better directional stability and a tad more useable headroom - although in the process such a section would have moved away (inwards) from that of the original multi-chined/rounded-section model being used, so I would effectively be screwing around with positional displacement in the process. That was the point at which my bottle/ pride of independence gave way. Bugger trusting years of work and many thousands of beer-coupons to what would have been, in effect, a prototype design. Your comments appreciated Greg, I'll investigate this 'third-cone' phenomenon some more if and when I make any more models - although for all sorts of practical reasons I've decided to stick with a known proven design for an actual build. 'best, Colin --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > > The main reason to go with multiple chines is to duplicate modern hull > shapes. Look at a single chine origami hull. The 1/2 hull flattens out in > section from the chines towards the ends. This limits you pretty much to > "V" shaped hull sections and older, more traditional boat designs. > > In a 2 chine hull, a funny thing happens. You get a cone at each chine end, > just like in single chine origami. However, you also get a third cone, > created by the interaction between the 2 chine cones, which radiates inward > from the ends towards the chines. This "reversed" cone allows you to create > "U" shaped hull sections, as found in modern designs. > > Greg > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > > using plywood and plaster. > > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > > think about it. > > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > > it ? > > > > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14821|14821|2007-10-12 13:40:21|Tom|Re wheel weights|Hello All I made a larger pot to melt the lead in, Its 12" dia and 3-1/2" tall works a lot better and faster, catches the whole flame from the turkey fryer. Only problem now is I need to make a couple more brick molds to keep up with it . I did about 80 pounds worth playing with it but its supposed to rain and it looked like it was going to so I quit, didnt want first hand experiance of water hitting molten lead. On the metal boat forum there is a guy with pictures doing a big pour in the side keel, I am kinda suprized the guy was wearing short pants, tinnis shoes, no glasses or hat or gloves. at least he was wearing a resperator. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14822|14822|2007-10-12 15:56:24|brentswain38|Email deleted|I accidentally deleted an email titled "swain36" ,sent sometime yesterday afternoon. Whoever sent me that email, please send it again. Brent| 14823|14641|2007-10-12 16:06:12|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|With over 200 of my boats out cruising, you couldn't ask for a more proven design.If it works and ain't broke, don't fix it. Multichine simply increases the amount of welding , pulling together, grinding , etc, etc, and adds a lot of variables and potential to screw up while offering no real advantage in terms of function. Any single chine hull can be built in origami. Conic ends are conic ends regardless of how many apexes there are. The difference is so small as to be like picking flyshit out of pepper, something that some designers make an obsession out of. Theory and reality are worlds apart in many instances. I've only built one multichine hull . What huge pain in the ass compared to single chine construction. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > One of the local yacht designers wrote in Metal Boat about the limitations > in hull shape in origami. He designs conventional single chine boats, and > had found that when he tried to do these single chine boats in origami, the > results were very limited in shape. From this he concluded that origami was > limited in what could be built. Did he consider that what he was observing > was not due to origami, but rather due to the single chine? > > I first noticed the "third cone" 20+ years ago cruising Mexico, > experimenting with different origami hull forms. I'd noticed that with a > single chine, you were pretty limited in hull shape. There was a reasons > single chine origami boats tended to look the same. Narrow ends, short > water-line, spoon bow, buoyancy carried high. The problem was that the > single chine gave you no way to control the hull shape in section at the > ends, limiting what could be built. You can control the hull in profile and > plan, but not in section. > > Adding the second "chine" solved this, by allowing you to control the > section shape at the ends. With two cones, you can change the angle between > the cones and this will change the curvature of the sections, right out to > the ends of the boat. This means you can build just about any boat you want > with origami. > > Also 20+ years ago, I had occasion to talk with Gary Curtis about hull shape > after he published an article about origami. I'd noticed that Gary was > doing multi-chine designs and he confirmed my own observations about section > shape and the limitations of single chine. Lundstrom was also doing > multi-chine designs. From what I could find, before any origami boats were > built here on the West Coast. Why multi-chine? > > Take just about any proven design, and by adding a second chine you can get > a very close approximation in origami. Not just in profile and plan, but in > section as well. Long water lines, greater hull speed, greater interior > volume, buoyancy down low, carried out to the ends. These become practical > in origami with a second chine because you can control the shape in all 3 > dimensions, out to the ends of the boat. > > I later added a third chine to support bilge keels. I found that not only > did this strengthen the hull, it allowed one to fine tune the shape, to > better align the weight, buoyancy and floatation, both upright and heeled. > Origami is an approximation, and the third chine allows for correction of > the errors that result from this approximation. Yes, you can trim a boat by > shifting weight once she is built, but this can result in problems like > hobby horsing. Better to have everything lined up before she is built. > > Greg > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:00 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BOATBUILDING > > > > My question about rule of thumb re: single chine location was > originally stimulated by thoughts about a deeper 'V' section producing > slightly better directional stability and a tad more useable headroom > - although in the process such a section would have moved away > (inwards) from that of the original multi-chined/rounded-section model > being used, so I would effectively be screwing around with positional > displacement in the process. > > That was the point at which my bottle/ pride of independence gave way. > Bugger trusting years of work and many thousands of beer-coupons to > what would have been, in effect, a prototype design. > > Your comments appreciated Greg, I'll investigate this 'third-cone' > phenomenon some more if and when I make any more models - although for > all sorts of practical reasons I've decided to stick with a known > proven design for an actual build. > > 'best, Colin > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > The main reason to go with multiple chines is to duplicate modern hull > > shapes. Look at a single chine origami hull. The 1/2 hull flattens > out in > > section from the chines towards the ends. This limits you pretty > much to > > "V" shaped hull sections and older, more traditional boat designs. > > > > In a 2 chine hull, a funny thing happens. You get a cone at each > chine end, > > just like in single chine origami. However, you also get a third cone, > > created by the interaction between the 2 chine cones, which radiates > inward > > from the ends towards the chines. This "reversed" cone allows you > to create > > "U" shaped hull sections, as found in modern designs. > > > > Greg > > > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > > > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > > > using plywood and plaster. > > > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > > > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > > > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > > > think about it. > > > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > > > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > > > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > > > it ? > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14824|14821|2007-10-12 17:39:58|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Tom I actually mist water onto the molten lead in order to get it to solidify and then pour water across the molds to cool it down once the surface is hard.? The only result is a big cloud of steam.? Doing this I can quickly empty and reuse my 2 molds 5 or 6 times. I have poured 600+ lbs in 20 minutes.?? The key is to not cool the molds so much that they don't quickly dry before you run the next batch.? If there is just a hint of moisture it will superheat and make the molten lead pop and splatter onto my tennis shoes :)?? --Just kidding,? I wear a hat, full face shield, leather welding sleeves, gloves, boots and blue jeans. And I have a sheet of OSB between me and the lead and keep the hose running near by.? The OSB is also great for keeping the radiant heat down too. Doug Jackson www.submarineboat.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:40 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re wheel weights Hello All I made a larger pot to melt the lead in, Its 12" dia and 3-1/2" tall works a lot better and faster, catches the whole flame from the turkey fryer. Only problem now is I need to make a couple more brick molds to keep up with it . I did about 80 pounds worth playing with it but its supposed to rain and it looked like it was going to so I quit, didnt want first hand experiance of water hitting molten lead. On the metal boat forum there is a guy with pictures doing a big pour in the side keel, I am kinda suprized the guy was wearing short pants, tinnis shoes, no glasses or hat or gloves. at least he was wearing a resperator. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14825|14821|2007-10-12 18:10:46|seeratlas|Re: Re wheel weights|Darwin at work..I cringe every time I see a guy in shorts and sandals, with his girlfriend in her bikini go zooming by me weaving thru traffic on a motorcycle.... best argument against socialism..LOL seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I made a larger pot to melt the lead in, Its 12" dia and 3-1/2" tall works a lot better and faster, catches the whole flame from the turkey fryer. Only problem now is I need to make a couple more brick molds to keep up with it . I did about 80 pounds worth playing with it but its supposed to rain and it looked like it was going to so I quit, didnt want first hand experiance of water hitting molten lead. > On the metal boat forum there is a guy with pictures doing a big pour in the side keel, I am kinda suprized the guy was wearing short pants, tinnis shoes, no glasses or hat or gloves. at least he was wearing a resperator. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14826|14826|2007-10-12 19:54:07|mickeyolaf|Prop Spin|How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the tranny in reverse? I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the wheelhouse once sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled brake from the house to the shaft and what it might look like.| 14827|14826|2007-10-12 20:41:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Prop Spin|I throw my Hurth gearbox into reverse and it never spins on my BS36. There is less drag if it doesn't spin and I believe it is easier on the gearbox. I can't see any need for a prop lock on a smaller prop. My friends on their 45 footer needed one and it was a pain in the ass since it was always slipping and/or flying apart. There is a great deal of force required to stop a large prop that is already spinning and up to speed. It was a manual lever with a brake pad clamping onto a disc sandwiched into the coupling. They had it "custom" designed by an "engineer". I crewed with one boat which had a shaft brake which was a pipe wrench that would get thrown onto the shaft before it got going too fast. It was pretty scary hearing and seeing the wrench handle slam onto the ferro hull but it did many, many miles using that method. I wouldn't recommend it :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:54:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Prop Spin How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the tranny in reverse? I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the wheelhouse once sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled brake from the house to the shaft and what it might look like. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14828|14826|2007-10-12 20:51:22|Carl Anderson|Re: Prop Spin|I've looked into the idea as my ZF25 tranny is hydraulic and can't be locked in gear (it will just allow the propshaft to freewheel anyway). Found someone all ready making one. Look at: http://www.shaftlok.com/ I decided against it for the time being BUT still left enough room on the shaft between seal & coupler to install one later if I so choose. Carl mickeyolaf wrote: > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the > tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > controlled brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > | 14829|14826|2007-10-12 21:13:19|polaris041|Re: Prop Spin|Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no glazing. I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on fuel bills and engine wear in the future! Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > | 14830|14826|2007-10-12 21:25:54|seeratlas|Re: Prop Spin|My boats have gone faster with the props locked. Lots of different ways to do it. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > | 14831|14826|2007-10-12 21:34:54|seeratlas|Re: Prop Spin|I put one of the italian self feathering 3 blades on my 54. It was remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 years of experience prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how all the pieces went together, manipulate them all in place then hold em there while all the little allen screws were tightened in a specific sequence. The bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch as in order to reset the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of the water, then pretty much disassemble the unit and start over with one piece in a slightly different place :) heheh fortunately we got 'close enough' on the first try. :) In use when shifting from forward to reverse, the blades would swing around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the opposite direction. In all fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to install, and noisy in operation, it did in fact work like a charm. Great power in reverse, great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't do it again tho LOL :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > glazing. > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock > the tranny in reverse? > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > wheelhouse once > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > controlled brake from the > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > | 14832|14821|2007-10-12 21:39:01|Tom|Re: Re wheel weights|I think I will keep doing it dry, Ive only got about 300 lbs or so of the junk lead to do, even have some lead coated wire to melt off and we think wheel weights are bad. I have about a 250 lbs bulb off a keel to work with allso, it was taken apart with a log splitting wedge, I would emagine it would be better to cut it up and melt into bricks, at least then I can handle it. My little hamster wheel has been spinning trying to figure out how to make sure my concrete scrap mix cant come loose from the keel and I dont want to weld anything off the sides because of distortion from the welds. Best I can come up with is a couple 1" all threads welded to the base of keel then when finished cut to length with 3/8"x3" flat strip slipped down over both studs and nutted tight, pretty much just sandwich it in there. Any other ideas here? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re wheel weights > > Hi Tom > > I actually mist water onto the molten lead in order to get it to solidify > and then pour water across the molds to cool it down once the surface is > hard.? The only result is a big cloud of steam.? Doing this I can quickly > empty and reuse my 2 molds 5 or 6 times. I have poured 600+ lbs in 20 > minutes.?? The key is to not cool the molds so much that they don't > quickly dry before you run the next batch.? If there is just a hint of > moisture it will superheat and make the molten lead pop and splatter onto > my tennis shoes :)?? --Just kidding,? I wear a hat, full face shield, > leather welding sleeves, gloves, boots and blue jeans. And I have a sheet > of OSB between me and the lead and keep the hose running near by.? The OSB > is also great for keeping the radiant heat down too. > > Doug Jackson > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:40 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re wheel weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > I made a larger pot to melt the lead in, Its 12" dia and 3-1/2" tall > works a lot better and faster, catches the whole flame from the turkey > fryer. Only problem now is I need to make a couple more brick molds to > keep up with it . I did about 80 pounds worth playing with it but its > supposed to rain and it looked like it was going to so I quit, didnt want > first hand experiance of water hitting molten lead. > > On the metal boat forum there is a guy with pictures doing a big pour in > the side keel, I am kinda suprized the guy was wearing short pants, tinnis > shoes, no glasses or hat or gloves. at least he was wearing a resperator. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14833|14826|2007-10-12 21:52:47|polaris041|Re: Prop Spin|Typical Italian engineering; they can't make a decent car either. I have seen one of these props, but not in use. Each blade is free to rotate through 360* independant of each other. They can assume a pitch at any angle with no stops. Each blade is on a seperate sealed race with no spaces/gaps to be taken up by coral and hence jam. There are no gears. Each blade is off set from the point of rotation, the offset determined by the specifics of HP/revs displacement etc and are machined for each vessel.It is one unit; instalation is the same as any fixed prop, slide on the taper with the key and do up the retaining nut. The engineering looks superb. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I put one of the italian self feathering 3 blades on my 54. It was > remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 years of experience > prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how all the pieces went > together, manipulate them all in place then hold em there while all > the little allen screws were tightened in a specific sequence. The > bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch as in order to reset > the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of the water, then pretty > much disassemble the unit and start over with one piece in a slightly > different place :) heheh fortunately we got 'close enough' on the > first try. :) > > In use when shifting from forward to reverse, the blades would swing > around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the opposite direction. In all > fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to install, and noisy in > operation, it did in fact work like a charm. Great power in reverse, > great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't do it again tho LOL :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > glazing. > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock > > the tranny in reverse? > > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > > wheelhouse once > > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > > controlled brake from the > > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > > > | 14834|14826|2007-10-12 21:52:58|Tom|Re: Prop Spin|Why not go hydraulic brake if needed, say use rotor and caliper off small car adapted to shaft and a clutch type single master cylinder? could be done on the cheap and have very strong featherable brake. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Prop Spin > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the > tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled > brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14835|14826|2007-10-12 22:04:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: Prop Spin|On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 01:13:16AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > glazing. > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. That's what I've got on "Ulysses". Frankly, between the pros and the cons, it's not much of a gain over a fixed prop - so it's money down the drain. The biggest problem - and I empasize *PROBLEM* - is that, after a while of sitting at anchor and letting it foul up a bit, it won't move from its last position. That means that if you left it in reverse, or if it feathered into neutral before you shut off your engine, that's the position it'll be stuck in. Did you say a sudden gale just blew in and you need to move??? Too bad... If you're willing to spend a little money and want a *solid*, proven system, a lot of fishermen in Iceland, Sweden, etc. use a controllable-pitch (a.k.a. variable-pitch) prop. I saw one on a local boat (made me green with envy, although the installation was a bit clumsy.) Rather than letting the force of the water set the pitch, as my MaxiProp does, you set it manually - I've seen both a handcrank and a lever option. A big money-saving bonus with these is that you don't need a transmission (reverse is just a couple of cranks away) and you can run your diesel at a constant RPM (best torque point) and set the pitch for speed. Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controllable_pitch_propeller Finnish company (Wartsila) that makes some BIG ones: http://tinyurl.com/2md5v8 The DeRidders' 30 years of experience with Hundested props (the "UNEXPECTED SIDE ADVANTAGES OF VPPs" section is especially interesting): http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/deridder/dragon18.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14836|14826|2007-10-12 22:27:02|polaris041|Re: Prop Spin|Thanks Ben; Now you did call your prop a 'MaxiProp'. Is it on this page, http://tinyurl.com/25vhl5 If so it is not the 'AutoProp". I can see many differences in the configuration of the 2. So I can understand the problems it may encounter and I would still ask; Has anyone had experience with the "AutoProp" http://tinyurl.com/3augfk Later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 01:13:16AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > glazing. > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > That's what I've got on "Ulysses". Frankly, between the pros and the > cons, it's not much of a gain over a fixed prop - so it's money down the > drain. The biggest problem - and I empasize *PROBLEM* - is that, after a > while of sitting at anchor and letting it foul up a bit, it won't move > from its last position. That means that if you left it in reverse, or if > it feathered into neutral before you shut off your engine, that's the > position it'll be stuck in. Did you say a sudden gale just blew in and > you need to move??? Too bad... > > If you're willing to spend a little money and want a *solid*, proven > system, a lot of fishermen in Iceland, Sweden, etc. use a > controllable-pitch (a.k.a. variable-pitch) prop. I saw one on a local > boat (made me green with envy, although the installation was a bit > clumsy.) Rather than letting the force of the water set the pitch, as my > MaxiProp does, you set it manually - I've seen both a handcrank and a > lever option. A big money-saving bonus with these is that you don't need > a transmission (reverse is just a couple of cranks away) and you can run > your diesel at a constant RPM (best torque point) and set the pitch for > speed. > > Wikipedia entry: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controllable_pitch_propeller > > Finnish company (Wartsila) that makes some BIG ones: > http://tinyurl.com/2md5v8 > > The DeRidders' 30 years of experience with Hundested props (the > "UNEXPECTED SIDE ADVANTAGES OF VPPs" section is especially interesting): > http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/deridder/dragon18.html > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14837|14826|2007-10-12 22:54:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Prop Spin|While they may be good, I can't see paying $3400 for a 14 inch propeller. I bought a two blade folding Gori propeller at a swap meat for $150 and used that for a while. It worked great but was a little too big so ended up buying a fixed two blade prop. With it lined up with the back of the keel, I notice no difference in speed between the two when sailing. The biggest problem I have found with props is growth on them. If I leave the boat for awhile, I put a black plastic garbage bag around it. If no light gets to the prop, there is no growth. Anyone have any good ideas on how to anti-foul a prop? There are lots of products sold, but I haven't heard if any of them work. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:26:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop Spin Thanks Ben; Now you did call your prop a 'MaxiProp'. Is it on this page, http://tinyurl. com/25vhl5 If so it is not the 'AutoProp". I can see many differences in the configuration of the 2. So I can understand the problems it may encounter and I would still ask; Has anyone had experience with the "AutoProp" http://tinyurl. com/3augfk Later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 01:13:16AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > http://tinyurl. com/33jfa4 > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > glazing. > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > That's what I've got on "Ulysses". Frankly, between the pros and the > cons, it's not much of a gain over a fixed prop - so it's money down the > drain. The biggest problem - and I empasize *PROBLEM* - is that, after a > while of sitting at anchor and letting it foul up a bit, it won't move > from its last position. That means that if you left it in reverse, or if > it feathered into neutral before you shut off your engine, that's the > position it'll be stuck in. Did you say a sudden gale just blew in and > you need to move??? Too bad... > > If you're willing to spend a little money and want a *solid*, proven > system, a lot of fishermen in Iceland, Sweden, etc. use a > controllable- pitch (a.k.a. variable-pitch) prop. I saw one on a local > boat (made me green with envy, although the installation was a bit > clumsy.) Rather than letting the force of the water set the pitch, as my > MaxiProp does, you set it manually - I've seen both a handcrank and a > lever option. A big money-saving bonus with these is that you don't need > a transmission (reverse is just a couple of cranks away) and you can run > your diesel at a constant RPM (best torque point) and set the pitch for > speed. > > Wikipedia entry: > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Controllable_ pitch_propeller > > Finnish company (Wartsila) that makes some BIG ones: > http://tinyurl. com/2md5v8 > > The DeRidders' 30 years of experience with Hundested props (the > "UNEXPECTED SIDE ADVANTAGES OF VPPs" section is especially interesting) : > http://www.setsail. com/s_logs/ deridder/ dragon18. html > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14838|14838|2007-10-13 00:18:27|seeratlas|Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I saw some recent postings in the metalboatsociety board where Brent and others were searching for some of the insulating paints. I had planned on going with the primary epoxy coats, then some additional including the microballoons, then foaming over that.. Now I'm reading about thermo oriented paints for the OUTSIDE of the hull? Has anyone here got any experience or knowledge concerning this stuff? LOL, with all the different coats of all these different barrier paints etc., won't be long before these boats will be more accurately described as 'steel reinforced paint' boats :) LOL> Plus from what I gather, this stuff costs a fortune as apparently pro sprayed foam has skyrocketed. :( seer| 14839|14838|2007-10-13 00:51:57|mickeyolaf|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. $2500.00 CDN. Very messy cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better way but gluing in foam panels is not recommended for some reason. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I saw some recent postings in the metalboatsociety board where Brent > and others were searching for some of the insulating paints. > I had planned on going with the primary epoxy coats, then some > additional including the microballoons, then foaming over that.. > > Now I'm reading about thermo oriented paints for the OUTSIDE of the hull? > Has anyone here got any experience or knowledge concerning this stuff? > LOL, with all the different coats of all these different barrier > paints etc., won't be long before these boats will be more accurately > described as 'steel reinforced paint' boats :) LOL> > > Plus from what I gather, this stuff costs a fortune as apparently pro > sprayed foam has skyrocketed. :( > > seer > | 14840|14826|2007-10-13 00:55:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Prop Spin|On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 02:26:57AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Thanks Ben; > Now you did call your prop a 'MaxiProp'. Is it on this page, > http://tinyurl.com/25vhl5 > If so it is not the 'AutoProp". I can see many differences in the > configuration of the 2. OK; when I looked at the diagram at the manufacturer's site (http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/usa/diagram.html), they looked like they performed exactly the same function - although the design is a little different. I can't really see how the problems that I have with the one wouldn't affect the other, or how there are any benefits to one over the other - but yeah, it would be good to hear if someone has any experience with them (and maybe tips that I can use. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14841|14826|2007-10-13 01:02:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Prop Spin|On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 07:54:52PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The biggest problem I have found with props is growth on them. If I > leave the boat for awhile, I put a black plastic garbage bag around > it. If no light gets to the prop, there is no growth. Hm, hadn't heard of that before. I'll have to try it (here in Florida, algae and barnacles are just horrendous.) > Anyone have > any good ideas on how to anti-foul a prop? There are lots of products > sold, but I haven't heard if any of them work. The best "antifouling" that I ever used on a prop wasn't an antifouling at all. I had bought some sprayable Teflon grease while I was sailing around Fajardo, Puerto Rico - this stuff went on like WD-40 but thickened almost instantly into this _tough,_ almost sticky lube coating. For almost a year after that haulout, all I ever had to do to that prop was wipe it - and I suspect that 90% of the barnacles, etc. were gone just from me giving that prop a good spin with the engine. Worked really well on underwater windvane parts, too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14842|14826|2007-10-13 01:42:23|polaris041|Re: Prop Spin|Ben; Just looking at the drawing of the MaxiProp it appears that the blades are rotating around a spindle with very close tolerence between the profile of the blade attatched to the hub and the root part of the section of the blade that rotates. Almost like a double scissor action. It would seem reasonable to expect that if the blade and the root were not lined up whilst not in use growth would cover both these surfaces and thus prevent them passing over each other when the blade again needed to rotate. In the 'autoprop' there is no such mating surface to foul which would hinder it's rotation.In fact the paddle of the blade is offset from the point of rotation which would impart an extra leverage effort into turning the blade. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 02:26:57AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Thanks Ben; > > Now you did call your prop a 'MaxiProp'. Is it on this page, > > http://tinyurl.com/25vhl5 > > If so it is not the 'AutoProp". I can see many differences in the > > configuration of the 2. > > OK; when I looked at the diagram at the manufacturer's site > (http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/usa/diagram.html), they looked like > they performed exactly the same function - although the design is a > little different. I can't really see how the problems that I have with > the one wouldn't affect the other, or how there are any benefits to one > over the other - but yeah, it would be good to hear if someone has any > experience with them (and maybe tips that I can use. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14843|14843|2007-10-13 01:49:01|Alex Christie|Campbell Sailing prop|Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard good things from those who use them. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: polaris041 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 10:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop Spin Ben; Just looking at the drawing of the MaxiProp it appears that the blades are rotating around a spindle with very close tolerence between the profile of the blade attatched to the hub and the root part of the section of the blade that rotates. Almost like a double scissor action. It would seem reasonable to expect that if the blade and the root were not lined up whilst not in use growth would cover both these surfaces and thus prevent them passing over each other when the blade again needed to rotate. In the 'autoprop' there is no such mating surface to foul which would hinder it's rotation.In fact the paddle of the blade is offset from the point of rotation which would impart an extra leverage effort into turning the blade. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 02:26:57AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > Thanks Ben; > > Now you did call your prop a 'MaxiProp'. Is it on this page, > > http://tinyurl.com/25vhl5 > > If so it is not the 'AutoProp". I can see many differences in the > > configuration of the 2. > > OK; when I looked at the diagram at the manufacturer's site > (http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/usa/diagram.html), they looked like > they performed exactly the same function - although the design is a > little different. I can't really see how the problems that I have with > the one wouldn't affect the other, or how there are any benefits to one > over the other - but yeah, it would be good to hear if someone has any > experience with them (and maybe tips that I can use. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1066 - Release Date: 12/10/2007 11:10 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14844|14843|2007-10-13 02:18:17|Michael Casling|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest guy in Canada. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard good things from those who use them. > > Alex | 14845|14838|2007-10-13 02:42:34|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Foam panels no mater how you do it leave air spaces. When air has a place to circulate at all along the skin of the hull water will condense the rust form and grow where it can. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. $2500.00 CDN. Very messy > cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better way but gluing in > foam panels is not recommended for some reason. | 14846|14826|2007-10-13 08:25:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Prop Spin|On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 05:42:20AM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Ben; > Just looking at the drawing of the MaxiProp it appears that the > blades are rotating around a spindle with very close tolerence > between the profile of the blade attatched to the hub and the root > part of the section of the blade that rotates. > Almost like a double scissor action. > It would seem reasonable to expect that if the blade and the root > were not lined up whilst not in use growth would cover both these > surfaces and thus prevent them passing over each other when the blade > again needed to rotate. > In the 'autoprop' there is no such mating surface to foul which would > hinder it's rotation.In fact the paddle of the blade is offset from > the point of rotation which would impart an extra leverage effort > into turning the blade. I see your point - although it seems to me that it can still foul, just as badly, between the body of the AutoProp and the bearing at the base of the blade. Unfortunately, there aren't any really clear pictures of that area, so I might be guessing wrong. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14847|14843|2007-10-13 12:49:23|mickeyolaf|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a half inch shaft. He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props but does look like a work of art. My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is stronger, and that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of metal and looks well done. I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm and order a spare some day when I am flush. If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the second one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > Michael > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > good things from those who use them. > > > > Alex > | 14848|14826|2007-10-13 12:51:14|David A. Frantz|Re: Prop Spin|Hi Guys; I'm wondering how one came to the conclusion that locking the shaft by throwing the transmission into reverse would be easier on the gear box. When something like that is done you have a few teeth on the gear box acting as the brake. Mind you the amount of boat experience that I have is minimal compared to the regulars here, but I do have a bit of mechanical experience and this strikes me as a bad practice. The other thing I'd be concerned about is the shaft seal. Seems like you would be better off, under way, keeping the shaft turning and the seal surfaces wet. Dave Paul Wilson wrote: > > I throw my Hurth gearbox into reverse and it never spins on my BS36. > There is less drag if it doesn't spin and I believe it is easier on > the gearbox. I can't see any need for a prop lock on a smaller prop. > My friends on their 45 footer needed one and it was a pain in the ass > since it was always slipping and/or flying apart. There is a great > deal of force required to stop a large prop that is already spinning > and up to speed. It was a manual lever with a brake pad clamping onto > a disc sandwiched into the coupling. They had it "custom" designed by > an "engineer". I crewed with one boat which had a shaft brake which > was a pipe wrench that would get thrown onto the shaft before it got > going too fast. It was pretty scary hearing and seeing the wrench > handle slam onto the ferro hull but it did many, many miles using that > method. I wouldn't recommend it :). > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mickeyolaf > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:54:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Prop Spin > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the > tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > controlled brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > __________________________________________________________ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you > all the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14849|14838|2007-10-13 14:00:26|mauro gonzaga|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|What about soft poliurethane foam glued on? Mauro "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: Foam panels no mater how you do it leave air spaces. When air has a place to circulate at all along the skin of the hull water will condense the rust form and grow where it can. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. $2500.00 CDN. Very messy > cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better way but gluing in > foam panels is not recommended for some reason. --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14850|14850|2007-10-13 14:50:22|Alex Christie|Re: New type of insulating foam|I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional foam. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14851|14843|2007-10-13 15:01:52|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail-drives. With a steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power boat, or a sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the room, a slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A skeg mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large diameter, 2 bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in-line helps block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a half inch shaft. He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props but does look like a work of art. My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is stronger, and that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of metal and looks well done. I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm and order a spare some day when I am flush. If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the second one. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > Michael > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > good things from those who use them. > > > > Alex > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14852|14850|2007-10-13 15:33:09|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: New type of insulating foam|The soy product works pretty well in the building industry.It is stable, easy to apply, has decent structural properties. It can be used as a sealant as well. It is an open cell foam, however. Currently it is a bit more expensive than polyiso or polyurethane,but that will change (it may have already in some locales). I would think soy-based foam should be available in BC, as you have a rather progressive residential builing industry. > I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, > hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. > Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional > foam. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14853|14850|2007-10-13 15:34:04|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: New type of insulating foam|The soy product works pretty well in the building industry.It is stable, easy to apply, has decent structural properties. It can be used as a sealant as well. It is an open cell foam, however. Currently it is a bit more expensive than polyiso or polyurethane,but that will change (it may have already in some locales). I would think soy-based foam should be available in BC, as you have a rather progressive residential builing industry. > I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, > hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. > Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional > foam. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14854|14838|2007-10-13 18:53:19|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Nothing gives more insurance then 2 part 2# spray foam over blasting and paint. I would not buy a steel boat done any other way. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > What about soft poliurethane foam glued on? Mauro > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: Foam panels no mater how you do it leave air spaces. When air has a > place to circulate at all along the skin of the hull water will > condense the rust form and grow where it can. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. > $2500.00 CDN. Very messy > > cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better > way but gluing in > > foam panels is not recommended for some reason. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14855|14838|2007-10-13 19:03:53|David A. Frantz|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I don't know about the glued on stuff but this discussion odes bring to mind spray on bed liner. Not so much as an insulating layer but an isolation layer, has any body out there experience with this in boat building? Seems like th ideal barrier between the steel hull and glued in insulation. Maybe even a useful with fiber glass. The way I understand it is that the stuff used for spray on bed liners was first used by the Navy in its ships. This is also the same stuff that is used to reinforce the ceramic plates in bullet proof vests. Indeed an interesting material. Problem is I don't have first hand info from anybody that has actually used the material. Dave mauro gonzaga wrote: > > What about soft poliurethane foam glued on? Mauro > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: Foam panels no mater how you do it leave air spaces. When air > has a > place to circulate at all along the skin of the hull water will > condense the rust form and grow where it can. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. > $2500.00 CDN. Very messy > > cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better > way but gluing in > > foam panels is not recommended for some reason. > > --------------------------------- > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest > shows on Yahoo! TV. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 14856|14838|2007-10-13 19:52:08|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. Tom| 14857|14850|2007-10-13 20:19:55|jim_both|Re: New type of insulating foam|Interesting link for insite into the faom industry: http://boards.hgtvpro.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9001020091/m/6701017662 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > The soy product works pretty well in the building industry.It is stable, easy to > apply, has decent structural properties. It can be used as a sealant as well. It is > an open cell foam, however. Currently it is a bit more expensive than polyiso or > polyurethane,but that will change (it may have already in some locales). I would > think soy-based foam should be available in BC, as you have a rather progressive > residential builing industry. > > > > I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, > > hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. > > Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional > > foam. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14858|14838|2007-10-13 20:26:15|polaris041|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Tom, how long before you have something to report re it's effectivness. Secondally you say you are using it on the interior. Why not the exterior as well. The tect sheet says it works with epoxies, increass wear effectivness and makes the surface easier to clean. Lastly, have you seen it used anywhere or is this a first up trial for you. Thanks for the info later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > Tom > | 14859|14838|2007-10-13 21:38:49|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Hollo Pol This is the first trial for me, if thing go right I should be able to let you know in a couple months. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Tom, how long before you have something to report re it's effectivness. > Secondally you say you are using it on the interior. Why not the > exterior as well. The tect sheet says it works with epoxies, increass > wear effectivness and makes the surface easier to clean. > Lastly, have you seen it used anywhere or is this a first up trial for > you. > Thanks for the info > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. >> Tom >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14860|14850|2007-10-13 21:58:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: New type of insulating foam|http://mascoat.com/marine.php _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim_both Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New type of insulating foam Interesting link for insite into the faom industry: http://boards. hgtvpro.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9001020091/m/6701017662 --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > The soy product works pretty well in the building industry.It is stable, easy to > apply, has decent structural properties. It can be used as a sealant as well. It is > an open cell foam, however. Currently it is a bit more expensive than polyiso or > polyurethane,but that will change (it may have already in some locales). I would > think soy-based foam should be available in BC, as you have a rather progressive > residential builing industry. > > > > I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, > > hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. > > Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional > > foam. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14861|14838|2007-10-13 22:26:53|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I used the additive and added it to my 3 times zinc primned and then double epoxy painted exposed metal beams, after the fire retardant polurethane foaming was completed. Couldn't see the difference during the B.C. winters, between the additive and the glass beads purchaed at the Indiustrial Plastic store,except that there was no shipping charge when purchased locally ! Anyway both inhibited condensation on exposed metal beams, mine being steel and Harvey's aluminium. PS. Does Harvey hold the record for completion from first weld to lauch, 10 weeks? (2 people to cut and tack and one professional welder) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14862|14838|2007-10-14 00:18:43|jim_both|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I too used Hytech's additive on some test paneles on the interior of my pilothouse roof. I was pleased regarding the effect it had on condensation throughout the Melbourne winter, where temperatures reached 0 C. Plenty of dripping on the untreated surfaces. I purchased sufficient from Ebay for 12 gallons, enough for two coats, which they say a third coat is largly ineffective. The Ebay store cost was about 25% less than their website price. I used a cheap latex binder to hold the additive; it stuck ok to the epoxy but I would use epoxy as a binder in any traffic or exposed storage areas. I'm looking at 3m's Thinsulate as an acoustic and thermal material, as I don't expect Insuladd to do more than stop condensation. Thinsulate is excellent, much superior to fiberglass batts, but may be hard to get here in Australia. Cheers, Jim > Anyway both inhibited condensation on exposed metal beams, mine being steel and Harvey's aluminium.| 14863|14838|2007-10-14 01:49:13|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|It may help with the sweating but Insolation works by having dead air spaces and why sprayfoam works so well it creates a lot of small dead air spaces in a very low heat transfer medium. Paint and epoxy are not low heat transfer mediums so make a poor binder for the dead air spaces created by ballons. A coating has very little R value and in a closed space like the cabin sweating will will happen. If you want it to last and insulate for comfort spray foam. The best way to save money is to take the hull to them and let them know you will pass there name on if they give you a good price. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > I too used Hytech's additive on some test paneles on the interior of > my pilothouse roof. I was pleased regarding the effect it had on > condensation throughout the Melbourne winter, where temperatures > reached 0 C. Plenty of dripping on the untreated surfaces. I > purchased sufficient from Ebay for 12 gallons, enough for two coats, > which they say a third coat is largly ineffective. The Ebay store > cost was about 25% less than their website price. > > I used a cheap latex binder to hold the additive; it stuck ok to the > epoxy but I would use epoxy as a binder in any traffic or exposed > storage areas. > > I'm looking at 3m's Thinsulate as an acoustic and thermal material, > as I don't expect Insuladd to do more than stop condensation. > Thinsulate is excellent, much superior to fiberglass batts, but may > be hard to get here in Australia. > Cheers, Jim > > > > > > > > Anyway both inhibited condensation on exposed metal beams, mine > being steel and Harvey's aluminium. > | 14864|14843|2007-10-14 01:49:40|seeratlas|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|Aren't you a wee bit concerned about an aluminum prop on a presumably stainless shaft in seawater? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a half inch shaft. > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props but does look like a > work of art. > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is stronger, and > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of metal and looks well done. > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm and order a spare some > day when I am flush. > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the second one. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > Michael > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > Alex > > > | 14865|14843|2007-10-14 01:53:10|seeratlas|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading edge before the prop is faired. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail-drives. With a > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power boat, or a > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the room, a > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A skeg > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large diameter, 2 > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in-line helps > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > half inch shaft. > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props but does > look like a > work of art. > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > stronger, and > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of metal and > looks well done. > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm and order > a spare some > day when I am flush. > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the second > one. > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > Michael > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very low-drag > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and reverse. > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14866|14850|2007-10-14 01:54:29|seeratlas|Re: New type of insulating foam|Jaezu Christo!!! now we're supposed to insulate the boat with tofu? :) hehehe seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > The soy product works pretty well in the building industry.It is stable, easy to > apply, has decent structural properties. It can be used as a sealant as well. It is > an open cell foam, however. Currently it is a bit more expensive than polyiso or > polyurethane,but that will change (it may have already in some locales). I would > think soy-based foam should be available in BC, as you have a rather progressive > residential builing industry. > > > > I've been informed of a new type of soy-based spray in foam which is non-toxic, > > hardens just like the other stuff, and does not produce toxic gasses if burnt. > > Anyone heard of this yet? Sounds like a good possible replacement for traditional > > foam. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 14867|14838|2007-10-14 03:10:45|jim_both|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|The dead air spaces are in the thinsulate. From my tests, the paint additive stopped condensation. The binder is only there to stick the glass beads or paint additive to the hull. I don't know why this additve stops condensation. I don't know how an insulation material such as Thinsulate or fiberglass batts will affect sweating or condensation between the hull and the insulation material. The advantage of using a batting material is that its dead easy to remove and install, and even Thinsulate is cheaper than spray in foam. Thinsulate, for example, comes in a 2" thick 225' roll. You just lay it in the hull and cover it with your paneling or headliner (it is very light), or use a spray adhesive to fix it where required. It is hydrophobic. http://www.thermoboat.com/Thinsulate.htm Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It may help with the sweating but Insolation works by having dead air > spaces and why sprayfoam works so well it creates a lot of small dead > air spaces in a very low heat transfer medium. Paint and epoxy are > not low heat transfer mediums so make a poor binder for the dead air > spaces created by ballons. A coating has very little R value and in a > closed space like the cabin sweating will will happen. If you want it > to last and insulate for comfort spray foam. The best way to save > money is to take the hull to them and let them know you will pass > there name on if they give you a good price. > > Jon | 14868|14826|2007-10-14 03:54:46|thesnotrocket|Re: Prop Spin|I was thinking about this the other day. Why not use a disc brake from a motorcycle? The newer sport bikes have EXTREMELY powerful brakes and they use fixed calipers with floating discs which would be easier to mount than a sliding caliper from a car. Lots of parts around too because the squids are always crashing. Since the brake lever is built into the master cylinder you could just mount the entire assembly in a stainless box. To actuate it, drill a hole and weld a nut to the side of the box and use a threaded rod with a crank handle to press down on the lever. You'd need to attach a cup to keep the rod from slipping off. With the master cylinder reservoir level the crank would stick out horizontally so you could make the assembly a flange mount and recess it into the panelling above your engine box or thereabouts. This would give a clean looking installation and the brake line from the bike would probably be long enough. Alternatively you could build some kind of over-centre lever arrangement to actuate the master cylinder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Why not go hydraulic brake if needed, say use rotor and caliper off small > car adapted to shaft and a clutch type single master cylinder? > could be done on the cheap and have very strong featherable brake. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Prop Spin > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the > > tranny in reverse? > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > > wheelhouse once > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable controlled > > brake from the > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14869|14838|2007-10-14 09:55:26|audeojude|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|> My boat was sprayed inside by two pro's. Inch and half thick. $2500.00 CDN. Very messy > cleanup after carving and sanding the excess. There must be a better way but gluing in > foam panels is not recommended for some reason. If I get to build one I think im going to try using the home pour and spray kits..... for the sides of the boat just put a 1/4 or 1/8 inch sheet of plywood over where foam is going . put thin painters plastic over back of it and then wedge it in place to make it curve to side of boat up against your tabs for installing furniture etc.... then through holes in wood slowly pour in slower expanding foam. Should leave you with foam perfectly faired in place.. I can see it taking about 5 times as long or longer to do compared to spraying but your amount of clean up afterwards should be little to nil.... Then I plan on using one of the products from the brickmaking/pottery industry to treat the interior surface with to make it if not fire proof then extremely fire retardand.. as in you could build a fire against it and it would take more than a couple minutes to even get it warm on the other side of the painted on barrier. I have seen pictures of plywood they painted this stuff on and then used to stop up holes in kilns fired to 2000 degrees and not be burned through a couple hours later.| 14870|14843|2007-10-14 10:14:54|Carl Anderson|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|Yes that is what is on Moonflower. I have an 18" prop with a 1.91/1 transmission ratio. (slow turning) The aperture is faired to help eliminate any vibration from the skeg/prop alignment (twice every rotation). Carl seeratlas wrote: > > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > edge before the prop is faired. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ge@... wrote: > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail-drives. > With a > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > boat, or a > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > room, a > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A > skeg > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > diameter, 2 > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in-line > helps > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > > half inch shaft. > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props > but does > > look like a > > work of art. > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > > stronger, and > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > metal and > > looks well done. > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > and order > > a spare some > > day when I am flush. > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the > second > > one. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > low-drag > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > reverse. > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 14871|14843|2007-10-14 10:22:43|mickeyolaf|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|Much consultation with Osbourne Propellers in North Vancouver and "North by West" re the CSP resulted in the professionals advising the best prop for my BS 36 and Yanmar 60 was the 3 blade 18" aluminum CSP(as my hull is aluminum). Supposidely the CSP has very low drag. I will see if it works well and may get a two blade for a spare to test for a differance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > edge before the prop is faired. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail- drives. > With a > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > boat, or a > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > room, a > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A > skeg > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > diameter, 2 > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in- line > helps > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > > half inch shaft. > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props > but does > > look like a > > work of art. > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > > stronger, and > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > metal and > > looks well done. > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > and order > > a spare some > > day when I am flush. > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the > second > > one. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > low-drag > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > reverse. > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14872|14838|2007-10-14 10:29:03|Carl Anderson|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|From my experience you probably won't get the foam into the small areas behind the longitudinals (and elsewhere) if you are trying to pour the slow rise foam from the top of your "in place" mold. I explored the "do-it-yourself" spray kits and decided to have a pro do the spraying after one honest supplier asked if there was ANYONE in the area that did this professionally. Was told that it would be worth EVERY PENNY to have someone with prior experience installing spray foam do it for you. As for painting the foam, I was told by nearly everyone to not waste money buying any special paint. Go get some "recycled" latex for free. So 15 gallons of paint later I figured that I saved $200 over buying the cheapest latex paint let alone any "special" fire retardant stuff. But in the end it is your boat and you will do what suits you best as I have done with Moonflower. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com audeojude wrote: > > If I get to build one I think im going to try using the home pour and > spray kits..... > for the sides of the boat just put a 1/4 or 1/8 inch sheet of plywood > over where foam is going . put thin painters plastic over back of it > and then wedge it in place to make it curve to side of boat up against > your tabs for installing furniture etc.... then through holes in wood > slowly pour in slower expanding foam. Should leave you with foam > perfectly faired in place.. I can see it taking about 5 times as long > or longer to do compared to spraying but your amount of clean up > afterwards should be little to nil.... Then I plan on using one of the > products from the brickmaking/pottery industry to treat the interior > surface with to make it if not fire proof then extremely fire > retardand.. as in you could build a fire against it and it would take > more than a couple minutes to even get it warm on the other side of > the painted on barrier. I have seen pictures of plywood they painted > this stuff on and then used to stop up holes in kilns fired to 2000 > degrees and not be burned through a couple hours later. > | 14873|14873|2007-10-14 10:39:46|mickeyolaf|1 x 19|Does 1 x 19 ss 316 deteriorate when still on the roll unused? My rigging book says 1 x 19 should be replaced every 10 years whether it fishhooks or not. I have an unused part roll of 1 x 19 ss 316 about 10 years old I plan to use on some of my stays to stand up my mast and would hate to see it start to break strands as soon as it is stood up. I also have a roll of newer stuff. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing 1 x19 of different vintage and manufacturers. What does ss wire do over time? Harden? Any of u metal experts know?| 14874|14821|2007-10-14 11:51:01|Tom|Re wheel weights|Hello All Well I managed to get everything I had melted down to brick, Had one tub full of scrap mostly lead some looked like it but wouldnt melt, might have been some kinda clay, If it didnt melt went to trash. anyway ended up with 700 lbs of bricks when finished. Cut the bulb up and the only thing that would cut it was the chain saw 'sawzall was useless on lead' . Seems to take about a gallon of propane for every 100 lbs of lead and I didnt think that was to bad considering I was getting it a lot hotter than needed just to seperate all the trash and dirt out of it. I measured the inside of my keel and thinking because it was the larger single keel there would be plenty of room, not near as much as I thought only about 3.7 cubic feet to the top, heck I need about 2-1/2 cubic feet of lead to make weight so me thinks I need more lead. I checked a bunch of local tire shops and nothing available, I guess with the scap prices there is a lot of lead colectors. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14875|14843|2007-10-14 12:31:38|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|An aluminum prop suits the aluminum hull, though a SS prop would likely be more durable. From: http://www.solarnavigator.net/propellers.htm Ideally, therefore, we want a thin section, narrow twin blade, revolving as slowly as possible. On the Bones, moving the 2 bladed prop in-line with the aperture was good for a couple of positions when racing, and was especially noticeable upwind. It seems to me that a 3 bladed prop can't achieve this, and always has 2 blades exposed to potential damage when sailing. Large ships fair the in-run to the prop on the keel, and reportedly this increases prop efficiency over running it in open water. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop Much consultation with Osbourne Propellers in North Vancouver and "North by West" re the CSP resulted in the professionals advising the best prop for my BS 36 and Yanmar 60 was the 3 blade 18" aluminum CSP(as my hull is aluminum). Supposidely the CSP has very low drag. I will see if it works well and may get a two blade for a spare to test for a differance. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > edge before the prop is faired. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail- drives. > With a > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > boat, or a > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > room, a > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A > skeg > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > diameter, 2 > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in- line > helps > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > > half inch shaft. > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props > but does > > look like a > > work of art. > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > > stronger, and > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > metal and > > looks well done. > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > and order > > a spare some > > day when I am flush. > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the > second > > one. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > low-drag > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > reverse. > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14876|14843|2007-10-14 13:39:19|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|using propcalc.xls, 55hp engine, 7.5 knot hull speed: transmission ratio static thrust (lbs) 1 875 2 1156 3 1361 4 1527 Prop pitch 22 Diameter 2 blade 28 3 blade 26 4 blade 25 ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop Yes that is what is on Moonflower. I have an 18" prop with a 1.91/1 transmission ratio. (slow turning) The aperture is faired to help eliminate any vibration from the skeg/prop alignment (twice every rotation). Carl seeratlas wrote: > > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > edge before the prop is faired. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ge@... wrote: > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail-drives. > With a > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > boat, or a > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > room, a > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A > skeg > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > diameter, 2 > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in-line > helps > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > > half inch shaft. > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props > but does > > look like a > > work of art. > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > > stronger, and > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > metal and > > looks well done. > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > and order > > a spare some > > day when I am flush. > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the > second > > one. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > low-drag > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > reverse. > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 14877|14843|2007-10-14 13:45:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|using propcalc.xls, 55hp engine, 7.5 knot hull speed: transmission ratio static thrust (lbs) 1 875 2 1156 3 1361 4 1527 Ratio 1 Prop diameter, pitch 2 blade 12x6 3 blade 11x5 4 blade 11x5 Ratio 2 Prop diameter, pitch 2 blade 18x11 3 blade 17x11 4 blade 16x11 Ratio 3 Prop diameter, pitch 2 blade 23x17 3 blade 22x16 4 blade 21x16 Ratio 4 Prop diameter, pitch 2 blade 28x22 3 blade 26x22 4 blade 25x22 ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:15 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop Yes that is what is on Moonflower. I have an 18" prop with a 1.91/1 transmission ratio. (slow turning) The aperture is faired to help eliminate any vibration from the skeg/prop alignment (twice every rotation). Carl seeratlas wrote: > > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > edge before the prop is faired. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ge@... wrote: > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail-drives. > With a > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > boat, or a > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > room, a > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with high aspect > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture mounted? A > skeg > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > diameter, 2 > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in-line > helps > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing prop drag. > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to catch or > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > Greg > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my 1 and a > > half inch shaft. > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze props > but does > > look like a > > work of art. > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged aluminum is > > stronger, and > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong as cast. > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > metal and > > looks well done. > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > and order > > a spare some > > day when I am flush. > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on the > second > > one. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the nicest > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half as strong > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > low-drag > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > reverse. > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've heard > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 14878|14873|2007-10-14 16:19:40|polaris041|Re: 1 x 19|Yes don't use it under any circumstances; I'll be around in 10 minutes to take it away for you before it causes you any more problems. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Does 1 x 19 ss 316 deteriorate when still on the roll unused? My > rigging book says 1 x 19 should be replaced every 10 years whether it > fishhooks or not. I have an unused part roll of 1 x 19 ss 316 about 10 > years old I plan to use on some of my stays to stand up my mast and > would hate to see it start to break strands as soon as it is stood up. > I also have a roll of newer stuff. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing 1 x19 > of different vintage and manufacturers. What does ss wire do over > time? Harden? > Any of u metal experts know? > | 14879|14873|2007-10-14 18:23:08|Tom|Re: 1 x 19|Hey Mickey From what I know on the 300 grades of stainless they will work harden from machining and such and get fatiged under use, If its just on a roll not used and hasnt been laying out in the weather all these years it should be just like new. I wouldnt be afraid to use it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] 1 x 19 > Does 1 x 19 ss 316 deteriorate when still on the roll unused? My > rigging book says 1 x 19 should be replaced every 10 years whether it > fishhooks or not. I have an unused part roll of 1 x 19 ss 316 about 10 > years old I plan to use on some of my stays to stand up my mast and > would hate to see it start to break strands as soon as it is stood up. > I also have a roll of newer stuff. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing 1 x19 > of different vintage and manufacturers. What does ss wire do over > time? Harden? > Any of u metal experts know? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14880|14880|2007-10-14 18:38:21|Tom|concrete|Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of portland cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate that as 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of cement over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14881|14880|2007-10-14 18:58:07|polaris041|Re: concrete|Try this Tom -http://tinyurl.com/2kpp9x later pol -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of portland cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate that as 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of cement over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14882|14838|2007-10-14 19:08:26|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No response. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > Tom > | 14883|14843|2007-10-14 19:10:43|brentswain38|Re: Campbell Sailing prop|I went from a Campbell to a conventional prop. No change in perfornmance, but the Campbell was tougher for smacking logs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Much consultation with Osbourne Propellers in North Vancouver > and "North by West" re the CSP resulted in the professionals > advising the best prop for my BS 36 and Yanmar 60 was the 3 blade > 18" aluminum CSP(as my hull is aluminum). > Supposidely the CSP has very low drag. I will see if it works well > and may get a two blade for a spare to test for a differance. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > The only downside is a bit of vibration caused as the prop lines up > > behind the skeg each rotation..but on a large slow turning > > (relatively) two blader its not too bad, especially if the leading > > edge before the prop is faired. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Aluminum props make sense with alloy legs, such as on sail- > drives. > > With a > > > steel hull and SS shaft, bronze would likely be more durable. > > > > > > I can see high coverage prop, with 3 or more blades for a power > > boat, or a > > > sailboat with restricted room to swing the prop. If you have the > > room, a > > > slow turning, large diameter, low coverage 2 blade prop with > high aspect > > > ratio blades would appear to be the way to go for a sailboat. > > > > > > Why use a 3 bladed prop for a sailboat if it is aperture > mounted? A > > skeg > > > mounted rudder with aperture is a great place to mount a large > > diameter, 2 > > > bladed prop. If the prop is in an aperture, a 2 bladed prop in- > line > > helps > > > block the aperture, reducing hull drag, while also minimizing > prop drag. > > > When the 2-bladed prop is in-line, there is nothing exposed to > catch or > > > damage. This makes a great combination for a cruising boat. > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of mickeyolaf > > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:49 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Campbell Sailing prop > > > > > > > > > > > > I bought an 18" aluminum 3 blade CSP from "North by West" for my > 1 and a > > > half inch shaft. > > > He charged me $700.00. It was more expensive than his bronze > props > > but does > > > look like a > > > work of art. > > > My metal book says that cast aluminum is the weakest, forged > aluminum is > > > stronger, and > > > that aluminum parts machined from solid bar are twice as strong > as cast. > > > I am sure my cast CSP will stand up well as it does have a lot of > > metal and > > > looks well done. > > > I was told to be carefull when I tighten it down. I may call Norm > > and order > > > a spare some > > > day when I am flush. > > > If Norm is the nicest guy in Canada maybe I will get a deal on > the > > second > > > one. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > > And Norm at North by West propellor in Vancouver, is about the > nicest > > > > guy in Canada. My metal book says aluminum castings are half > as strong > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Apparently the Campbell Sailing prop, while fixed, is a very > > low-drag > > > > item when not in use, yet has excellent thrust in forward and > > reverse. > > > > Some complex blade geometry appartently does the trick. I've > heard > > > > good things from those who use them. > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14884|14880|2007-10-14 20:59:24|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: concrete|Cured cement is the same weight as the dry ingredents that go into the mix the water dries out leaving just the dry ingredents. Concreat when wet is nearly twice as heavy as cured and when cured gets soaked it can gain most that weight back. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of portland cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate that as 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of cement over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14885|14880|2007-10-14 21:13:29|polaris041|Re: concrete|Without being too pedantic; cubic ft cured concrete = 145 lbs cubic ft water = 61.7 lbs later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Cured cement is the same weight as the dry ingredents that go into the > mix the water dries out leaving just the dry ingredents. Concreat when > wet is nearly twice as heavy as cured and when cured gets soaked it can > gain most that weight back. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of portland > cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate that as > 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of cement > over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14886|14880|2007-10-14 21:44:45|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: concrete|A cup of vinager and a cup of water don't make two cups when mixed togather. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Without being too pedantic; > cubic ft cured concrete = 145 lbs > cubic ft water = 61.7 lbs > > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > Cured cement is the same weight as the dry ingredents that go into > the > > mix the water dries out leaving just the dry ingredents. Concreat > when > > wet is nearly twice as heavy as cured and when cured gets soaked it > can > > gain most that weight back. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of > portland > > cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate > that as > > 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of > cement > > over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. > > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 14887|14880|2007-10-14 21:59:09|polaris041|Re: concrete|From my old ferrocement boat building daze I remember that a mixture of .47 water to 1 of cement in a 2:1 mix of sand, cured for 28 days with free water available for complete crystal growth to acheive maximun compressibility resulted in a cured medium with out any shrinking and totally water proof. I know a bit about vinegar but not in relation to cement. Take it easy Jon. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > A cup of vinager and a cup of water don't make two cups when mixed > togather. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Without being too pedantic; > > cubic ft cured concrete = 145 lbs > > cubic ft water = 61.7 lbs > > > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > Cured cement is the same weight as the dry ingredents that go > into > > the > > > mix the water dries out leaving just the dry ingredents. Concreat > > when > > > wet is nearly twice as heavy as cured and when cured gets soaked > it > > can > > > gain most that weight back. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Question on caculating weight of concrete. 100lbs sack of > > portland > > > cement and 200 lbs of sand for a 2 to 1 mix would you calculate > > that as > > > 300lbs cured cement at about 2 cubic feet? Ive poured a lot of > > cement > > > over the years but never had to figure the weight of it. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 14888|14821|2007-10-14 22:09:32|kingsknight4life|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Tom Chainsaw is by far the best option for cutting lead. I tried numerous other options and it worked the best. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Well I managed to get everything I had melted down to brick, Had one tub full of scrap mostly lead some looked like it but wouldnt melt, might have been some kinda clay, If it didnt melt went to trash. anyway ended up with 700 lbs of bricks when finished. Cut the bulb up and the only thing that would cut it was the chain saw 'sawzall was useless on lead' . ... > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14889|14880|2007-10-14 22:19:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: concrete|On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 01:44:45AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > A cup of vinager and a cup of water don't make two cups when mixed > togather. And 4 cups of Screech feel like you drank the whole case the next morning. :) (Last time I visited "Trono", a student of mine felt that he could do no less than introduce the visitor to those Canadian National treasures - Screech and /poutine/. I have a strong suspicion that this is part of the standard Canadian citizenship test. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14890|14838|2007-10-15 00:33:38|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + shipping. with a little luck should show up by the end of week. Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would want youre buisness. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No > response. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. >> Tom >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14891|14880|2007-10-15 07:04:46|sae140|Re: concrete|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Cured cement is the same weight as the dry ingredents that go into the > mix the water dries out leaving just the dry ingredents. The chemistry of cement is extremely complex, but essentially involves the de-hydration of calcium silicates by intense heat. During the re-hydration (cement mixer) phase, water is both *chemically* as well as physically added - which enables various complex calcium silicate hydrates to be formed. Thus the weight of re-hydrated (set and dried) cement will always be greater than that of the dry bagged cement which was used. 2Ca3OSiO4 + 6H2O > 3CaO.2SiO2.3H2O + 3Ca(OH)2 2Ca2SiO4 + 4H2O > 3CaO.2SiO2.3H2O + Ca(OH)2 Colin| 14892|14838|2007-10-15 09:51:01|audeojude|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > From my experience you probably won't get the foam into the small areas > behind the longitudinals (and elsewhere) if you are trying to pour the > slow rise foam from the top of your "in place" mold. > > I explored the "do-it-yourself" spray kits and decided to have a pro do > the spraying after one honest supplier asked if there was ANYONE in the > area that did this professionally. Was told that it would be worth > EVERY PENNY to have someone with prior experience installing spray foam > do it for you. > > As for painting the foam, I was told by nearly everyone to not waste > money buying any special paint. Go get some "recycled" latex for free. > So 15 gallons of paint later I figured that I saved $200 over buying > the cheapest latex paint let alone any "special" fire retardant stuff. > > But in the end it is your boat and you will do what suits you best as I > have done with Moonflower. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com if I did this I would have holes in the sheet of plywood so that I could do multiple pours starting near the bottom and working up. I don't think you could get a good job trying to do the whole thing at once either. Maybe get a piece of clear double wall polycarbonate to use as your sheet of material.. You could see what was happening through it as you poured. If you poured through a bunch of 1 inch holes your clean up would just be trimming off what little bit protruded through those holes. just an idea....| 14893|14838|2007-10-15 09:58:11|mickeyolaf|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Two 24hr solar/battery vents, one pushing in and other drawing air out will solve the condensation problem. They work like a hot damm to keep a boat dry and fresh. The ones I bought pop out for bad weather and have a filler cap to plug the whole. They run with minimal sun and also charge the nicad so they also run all night. Mine are stainless but I don't think they would survive being stepped on. I cut one into my forward hatch lexan cause I don't step there anyway and the other into the top of the pilothouse. A couple of these vents and your foam paint will probably do the trick. Nothing worse than a sweating mildewed boat. Most of my interior is currently aluminum but it will be covered up with teak and corian once the finishing gets underway. Right now I have a fan running 24 hrs inside which eliminates any moisture settling. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + shipping. > with a little luck should show up by the end of week. > Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would want > youre buisness. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No > > response. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > >> Tom > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14894|14838|2007-10-15 16:29:55|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Karl had a shed which was just a roof, no walls . It rained condensation on many days. You could never get better ventilatiion on a boat that a roof with no walls .All the ventilation in the world won't eliminate condensation, if there is a 2 degree or more difference in temperature between a surface and the air around it , period. If you have a solar panel and a battery ,and put a computer fan in a vent, you have the exact same thing as those fragile ,overpriced solar fans, at a fraction the price and vulnerability. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Two 24hr solar/battery vents, one pushing in and other drawing air > out will solve the condensation problem. They work like a hot damm > to keep a boat dry and fresh. > The ones I bought pop out for bad weather and have a filler cap to > plug the whole. They run with minimal sun and also charge the nicad > so they also run all night. > Mine are stainless but I don't think they would survive being > stepped on. I cut one into my forward hatch lexan cause I don't step > there anyway and the other into the top of the pilothouse. > A couple of these vents and your foam paint will probably do the > trick. Nothing worse than a sweating mildewed boat. > Most of my interior is currently aluminum but it will be covered up > with teak and corian once the finishing gets underway. Right now I > have a fan running 24 hrs inside which eliminates any moisture > settling. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + > shipping. > > with a little luck should show up by the end of week. > > Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would > want > > youre buisness. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current > thinking? > > > > > > > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No > > > response. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > > >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > > >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > > >> Tom > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14895|14838|2007-10-15 16:32:55|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two gallon kit. No response. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + shipping. > with a little luck should show up by the end of week. > Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would want > youre buisness. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No > > response. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > >> Tom > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14896|14826|2007-10-15 16:44:08|brentswain38|Re: Prop Spin|In BC, where logs are a problem , such complex and expensive props would be a big bill to repair. They may be OK in cleaner waters, but wouldn't be practical here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I put one of the italian self feathering 3 blades on my 54. It was > remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 years of experience > prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how all the pieces went > together, manipulate them all in place then hold em there while all > the little allen screws were tightened in a specific sequence. The > bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch as in order to reset > the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of the water, then pretty > much disassemble the unit and start over with one piece in a slightly > different place :) heheh fortunately we got 'close enough' on the > first try. :) > > In use when shifting from forward to reverse, the blades would swing > around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the opposite direction. In all > fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to install, and noisy in > operation, it did in fact work like a charm. Great power in reverse, > great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't do it again tho LOL :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > glazing. > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock > > the tranny in reverse? > > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > > wheelhouse once > > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > > controlled brake from the > > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > > > | 14897|14187|2007-10-15 16:54:49|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|Skip the trap door. Just put a raised flange on the hole and put a stainless 5 inch pot lid from the thrift store over the hole when you are taking a leak and remove it and set it aside when taking a dump. A plastic bowl makes a good fibreglass mold for the bottom. It can be sikaflexed into the bottom of a 5 gallon plastic bucket, cut to 12 inches long. Molding the seat arrangement is a bit of work. Never though of clay for a mold . That would be easy. It is a bit of work, but this socialist solution is far better than the capitalist one of paying $1,000 . In fact I think the socialist solution of us exchanging info on how to do things yourself is far better than the capitalist one of not doing anything to help each other out unless there is a quick buck for each of us in it , or charging $1,000 dollars for a few dollars worth of plastic , just because I could.. If I were anything but a socialist I wouldn't give you these suggestions unless I were paid for it, nor would I spend long hours on this and other chatlines trying to offer solutions to peoples problems without the ability to hand anyone a bill for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ahh, I was thinking the same thing. The gasketed 'air proof' toilet > seat and lid looks like an easy modification of existing 'equipment'. > The 'bowl' with liquid separator, I would think could be readily > made up in a clay form with reinforced resin. Other than affixing the > trap door for solids, the composting tank below could be made out of > any suitable nylon or stainless tub with the inside lower surface > shaped (as you suggested)into a bowl to ensure that the entire > contents of the composter would be shifted by a circular 'stirrer' > activated by a crank. If this is all there is, how do we get to 1k$ > or in other units 1500 $ and a lot more!! Seems pretty extravagant. > LOL I can see making one using one of the tubs for the water "shop > vac" units out there, utilize the clamping system to hold the seat > structure on top , add a gasketed hose to a remote liquid collector, > put in a large stainless 'mixxing bowl' sized to the tank, fabricate > your matching stainless 'crank stirrer', set up a small vent and voila. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and > > plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but > > very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to > > produce. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in > exceptionally > > > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and > > discuss > > > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. > Here > > > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I > > will > > > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it > has > > > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also > understand > > > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just > > this > > > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern > diminished. > > > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen > > topic > > > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a > > hazard > > > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an > > illusion > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine > > that if > > > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary > > for > > > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of those > > > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting > > the > > > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you dump > > > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of those > > > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the > children > > > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for > instance: > > > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in > > short > > > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low > temperatures > > > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction > occurs > > > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures > but > > > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a week > > > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of > round > > > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing > the > > > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). > > The > > > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated that > > > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be > found > > > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as > > the US > > > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* > The > > > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage > treatment" > > > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment > > unless > > > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case > with our > > > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small > amount of > > > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our > > rivers > > > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. > It > > > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > > > General Manager > > > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system > > seen in > > > > > SE Asia. > > > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are > > you > > > > > not > > > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has > been my > > > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts > heating > > > > > up, you > > > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > sufficient to > > > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no > matter > > > > > when you > > > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain > up to > > > > > 1,000 > > > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > > > bacteria of a > > > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > > > Infected > > > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and > > Lewis, > > > > > Ricki. > > > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, > > so why > > > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life > when it > > > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > > > considering > > > > > > a afixing an > > > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant > > reservoir to > > > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've also > > > > > > contemplated running > > > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering a bit > > > > > when > > > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft connected > > > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have put it > > > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type head.I > > > > > > changed the > > > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and > > welded the > > > > > > handle > > > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit > horizontally > > > > > when > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I > plan > > > > > to > > > > > > put a > > > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > > be no > > > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake > > hole > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant bottle in > > > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > > > dump.Now > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 > inch > > > > > > square > > > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to help > > > > > break > > > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14898|14808|2007-10-15 17:00:46|brentswain38|Re: High Tensile Steel|In the 70's I was moored of a shipyard in Auckland where they built steel tugs. I asked them what they thought about specialised steels like corten. They tried it and found it had no real advantage over common mild steel , yet warped more , ate the welds, as they were different and thus sacrificial to the hull and as it turned out was far more trouble than it was worth. Mild steel is a huge overkill in the sizes of boats we are dealing with. Structural strength is a non issue in boats under 60 feet . Steel has to be a certain thicknes to be reasonably resistant to warping and corrosion a thickness that is structurally a huge overkill. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all common high strength steels are very close to the same modulus of elasticity. The rigidity of a material is directly proportional to the modulus of elasticity. Without an increase in rigidity, assuming the same density, I don't see how there would be a savings in weight for a structural item. Here's an example, http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_strength.htm. The tensile and yield strengths of the steels vary greatly but all have identical modulus of elasticity. > > If it does have a higher modulus of elasticity, it would be possible to save weight, though it would have to be much higher to make a boat much lighter just based on the physical properties of the steel. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] High Tensile Steel > > > I recently came across a report of a sixty'ish foot long research > vessel built of something called Domex 700, a Swedish High tensile steel. > > The thing that caught my eye was that the builder claimed that the use > of the Domex enabled him to build a much lighter and 'less expensive' > boat than he would have been able to by using std. mild steel plate. > > Anyone ever heard of this stuff? Supposedly twice the tensile > strength, about twice the abrasion resistance, and yet still capable > of being cold formed. Oh, and multiples with respect to yield str. > They are using a lot of it to build light weight but extremely long > lived 45' refrig containers, amongst a host of other things. > > The boat was called the "Searcher" I believe and was specially planned > for expedition research. > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14899|14873|2007-10-15 17:10:54|brentswain38|Re: 1 x 19|1x 7 galvanized lasts longer than ten years so why bother with stainless? For a boat that rarely leaves the marina and doesn't do long offshore passages , I think stainless would last far longer than that.For offshore it's a different story and I'd think ten years is a maximum,. I think this rumour is propagated by those who want to sell lots of stainless , in their own self interest. If they thought they could get away with telling us to throw it all away every two years , they'd try it. Sorta like the container that has written in it's instructions. "Mix the entire contents , then throw away all unused portions". Yeah? In who's economic interests do they give that advice? Their own economic interests , not ours. How gullible do they think we are? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Does 1 x 19 ss 316 deteriorate when still on the roll unused? My > rigging book says 1 x 19 should be replaced every 10 years whether it > fishhooks or not. I have an unused part roll of 1 x 19 ss 316 about 10 > years old I plan to use on some of my stays to stand up my mast and > would hate to see it start to break strands as soon as it is stood up. > I also have a roll of newer stuff. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing 1 x19 > of different vintage and manufacturers. What does ss wire do over > time? Harden? > Any of u metal experts know? > | 14900|14826|2007-10-15 17:14:37|brentswain38|Re: Prop Spin|If you leave the boat for a day or two , float a huge poly tarp under it, let it float against the hull and throw a gallon of bleach in. When you get back the bottom will be very clean. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 07:54:52PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > The biggest problem I have found with props is growth on them. If I > > leave the boat for awhile, I put a black plastic garbage bag around > > it. If no light gets to the prop, there is no growth. > > Hm, hadn't heard of that before. I'll have to try it (here in Florida, > algae and barnacles are just horrendous.) > > > Anyone have > > any good ideas on how to anti-foul a prop? There are lots of products > > sold, but I haven't heard if any of them work. > > The best "antifouling" that I ever used on a prop wasn't an antifouling > at all. I had bought some sprayable Teflon grease while I was sailing > around Fajardo, Puerto Rico - this stuff went on like WD-40 but > thickened almost instantly into this _tough,_ almost sticky lube > coating. For almost a year after that haulout, all I ever had to do to > that prop was wipe it - and I suspect that 90% of the barnacles, etc. > were gone just from me giving that prop a good spin with the engine. > Worked really well on underwater windvane parts, too. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14901|14641|2007-10-15 17:18:33|brentswain38|Re: BOATBUILDING|Deeper V relocates the buoyancy at the bottom of the V deeper , reducing stability , unless you fill it up with tankage. Hull balance as described in my book does far more to determine directional stability. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > My question about rule of thumb re: single chine location was > originally stimulated by thoughts about a deeper 'V' section producing > slightly better directional stability and a tad more useable headroom > - although in the process such a section would have moved away > (inwards) from that of the original multi-chined/rounded-section model > being used, so I would effectively be screwing around with positional > displacement in the process. > > That was the point at which my bottle/ pride of independence gave way. > Bugger trusting years of work and many thousands of beer-coupons to > what would have been, in effect, a prototype design. > > Your comments appreciated Greg, I'll investigate this 'third-cone' > phenomenon some more if and when I make any more models - although for > all sorts of practical reasons I've decided to stick with a known > proven design for an actual build. > > 'best, Colin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > The main reason to go with multiple chines is to duplicate modern hull > > shapes. Look at a single chine origami hull. The 1/2 hull flattens > out in > > section from the chines towards the ends. This limits you pretty > much to > > "V" shaped hull sections and older, more traditional boat designs. > > > > In a 2 chine hull, a funny thing happens. You get a cone at each > chine end, > > just like in single chine origami. However, you also get a third cone, > > created by the interaction between the 2 chine cones, which radiates > inward > > from the ends towards the chines. This "reversed" cone allows you > to create > > "U" shaped hull sections, as found in modern designs. > > > > Greg > > > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > A long time ago I had a stab at making Origami models from taking off > > > an 'orange peel' from a 1/12th scale hull I built up from offsets > > > using plywood and plaster. > > > When cutting the orange-peel 'skins', I found that the position of the > > > chine darts had a considerable influence on the shape of the hull's > > > eventual lower 'V' cross-section. It's pretty obvious, the more you > > > think about it. > > > I note that Greg has always opted for multiple chine darts to more > > > closely approximate a rounded bilge, but - if one is staying with a > > > single chine - is there a rule of thumb about the best place to locate > > > it ? > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14902|14902|2007-10-15 17:24:33|brentswain38|Radar Detector|My neighbor sailed from Hawaii to BC with a new radar detector. He said it was useless. He saw many ships with their radars on ,and who told him they could see him on radar , but the detector remained silent. Only on rare occasions did it pick up a radar , then only when it was within a couple of miles.I've heard this from other cruisers.AIS sounds like a better solution. Detectors seem to be a hign priced scam. Brent| 14903|14903|2007-10-15 17:45:49|Alex Christie|balanced hull, sailing video|We sailed Shair out on Baynes Sound yesterday to bring her around to Deep Bay and experienced a perfectly balanced rudder with hands-off self-steering, which the skipper controlled by the main. Nice feeling. Video for y'all showing a bit of our day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkW53rwimA Never mind the fouled up jenny in the vid...shite happens! Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14904|14904|2007-10-15 19:00:42|Alex Christie|Second video of the day, Boat Move|Just a short clip of my bare hull being moved onto the new pad! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah-bidRu-GA Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14905|14904|2007-10-15 19:56:15|brentswain38|Re: Second video of the day, Boat Move|Alex It looks like you could easily attach a tarp just under the eaves of the house and stretch it right over your lifelines, and get a good dry working space under it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Just a short clip of my bare hull being moved onto the new pad! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah-bidRu-GA > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14906|14838|2007-10-15 20:39:40|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Yep that does kinda suck, anymore lot of outfits wont deal with you unless you have good credit and credit cards. I miss the ol days when they would ship cod and you just leave envelope with money on front door. I orderd extra if you need some send me an address and Ill see what it takes to ship to you . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > gallon kit. No response. > Brent > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + > shipping. >> with a little luck should show up by the end of week. >> Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would want >> youre buisness. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No >> > response. >> > Brent >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 >> >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html >> >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14907|14826|2007-10-15 20:51:29|seeratlas|Re: Prop Spin|More than that Brent, half a knot at best improvement is not worth the money for cruising...could buy a decent genset for what that prop cost... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In BC, where logs are a problem , such complex and expensive props > would be a big bill to repair. They may be OK in cleaner waters, but > wouldn't be practical here. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I put one of the italian self feathering 3 blades on my 54. It was > > remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 years of experience > > prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how all the pieces went > > together, manipulate them all in place then hold em there while all > > the little allen screws were tightened in a specific sequence. The > > bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch as in order to reset > > the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of the water, then pretty > > much disassemble the unit and start over with one piece in a slightly > > different place :) heheh fortunately we got 'close enough' on the > > first try. :) > > > > In use when shifting from forward to reverse, the blades would swing > > around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the opposite direction. In all > > fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to install, and noisy in > > operation, it did in fact work like a charm. Great power in reverse, > > great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't do it again tho LOL :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > > http://tinyurl.com/33jfa4 > > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > > glazing. > > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock > > > the tranny in reverse? > > > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > > > wheelhouse once > > > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > > > controlled brake from the > > > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > > > > > > > | 14908|14187|2007-10-15 20:55:06|seeratlas|Re: Airhead improvements|Does anyone know if the 'coffee filter' like paper 'catch solids' insert sold for the airhead do anything other than provide a vehicle for getting the solids from the bowl to the composting tub without gooping up the bowl in the airhead? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Skip the trap door. Just put a raised flange on the hole and put a > stainless 5 inch pot lid from the thrift store over the hole when you > are taking a leak and remove it and set it aside when taking a dump. > A plastic bowl makes a good fibreglass mold for the bottom. It can > be sikaflexed into the bottom of a 5 gallon plastic bucket, cut to 12 > inches long. > Molding the seat arrangement is a bit of work. Never though of clay > for a mold . That would be easy. It is a bit of work, but this > socialist solution is far better than the capitalist one of paying > $1,000 . > In fact I think the socialist solution of us exchanging info on how > to do things yourself is far better than the capitalist one of not > doing anything to help each other out unless there is a quick buck for > each of us in it , or charging $1,000 dollars for a few dollars worth > of plastic , just because I could.. > If I were anything but a socialist I wouldn't give you these > suggestions unless I were paid for it, nor would I spend long hours on > this and other chatlines trying to offer solutions to peoples > problems without the ability to hand anyone a bill for it. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ahh, I was thinking the same thing. The gasketed 'air proof' toilet > > seat and lid looks like an easy modification of existing 'equipment'. > > The 'bowl' with liquid separator, I would think could be readily > > made up in a clay form with reinforced resin. Other than affixing the > > trap door for solids, the composting tank below could be made out of > > any suitable nylon or stainless tub with the inside lower surface > > shaped (as you suggested)into a bowl to ensure that the entire > > contents of the composter would be shifted by a circular 'stirrer' > > activated by a crank. If this is all there is, how do we get to 1k$ > > or in other units 1500 $ and a lot more!! Seems pretty extravagant. > > LOL I can see making one using one of the tubs for the water "shop > > vac" units out there, utilize the clamping system to hold the seat > > structure on top , add a gasketed hose to a remote liquid collector, > > put in a large stainless 'mixxing bowl' sized to the tank, fabricate > > your matching stainless 'crank stirrer', set up a small vent and voila. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and > > > plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but > > > very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to > > > produce. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in > > exceptionally > > > > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and > > > discuss > > > > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. > > Here > > > > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I > > > will > > > > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it > > has > > > > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also > > understand > > > > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just > > > this > > > > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern > > diminished. > > > > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen > > > topic > > > > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a > > > hazard > > > > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an > > > illusion > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine > > > that if > > > > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary > > > for > > > > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of > those > > > > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting > > > the > > > > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you > dump > > > > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of > those > > > > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the > > children > > > > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for > > instance: > > > > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in > > > short > > > > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low > > temperatures > > > > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction > > occurs > > > > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures > > but > > > > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a > week > > > > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of > > round > > > > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing > > the > > > > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). > > > The > > > > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated > that > > > > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be > > found > > > > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as > > > the US > > > > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* > > The > > > > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage > > treatment" > > > > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment > > > unless > > > > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case > > with our > > > > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small > > amount of > > > > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our > > > rivers > > > > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. > > It > > > > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > > > > General Manager > > > > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system > > > seen in > > > > > > SE Asia. > > > > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are > > > you > > > > > > not > > > > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has > > been my > > > > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts > > heating > > > > > > up, you > > > > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > > sufficient to > > > > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no > > matter > > > > > > when you > > > > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain > > up to > > > > > > 1,000 > > > > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > > > > bacteria of a > > > > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > > > > Infected > > > > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and > > > Lewis, > > > > > > Ricki. > > > > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, > > > so why > > > > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life > > when it > > > > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > > > > considering > > > > > > > a afixing an > > > > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant > > > reservoir to > > > > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've > also > > > > > > > contemplated running > > > > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering > a bit > > > > > > when > > > > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft > connected > > > > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have > put it > > > > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type > head.I > > > > > > > changed the > > > > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and > > > welded the > > > > > > > handle > > > > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit > > horizontally > > > > > > when > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I > > plan > > > > > > to > > > > > > > put a > > > > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > > > be no > > > > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake > > > hole > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant > bottle in > > > > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > > > > dump.Now > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 > > inch > > > > > > > square > > > > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to > help > > > > > > break > > > > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14909|14826|2007-10-15 21:34:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Prop Spin|More than a few times in emergencies I've had to go from full ahead to full astern. Lots of marine transmissions are built to take just this sort of abuse. I'd be surprised if the same can be said for a lot of the high priced feathering and folding props. A large, fixed, 2 blade, slow turning prop for a cruising sailboat is near impossible to beat. It is efficient, dead simple, and in-line behind the skeg or keel is well protected. If anything it reduces the drag of the aperture while sailing, giving a net negative prop drag. I'm yet to see any folding or feathering prop do better than that. For racing, or if the prop is not carried in an aperture, then the situation is different. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 5:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop Spin More than that Brent, half a knot at best improvement is not worth the money for cruising...could buy a decent genset for what that prop cost... seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In BC, where logs are a problem , such complex and expensive props > would be a big bill to repair. They may be OK in cleaner waters, but > wouldn't be practical here. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I put one of the italian self feathering 3 blades on my 54. It was > > remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 years of experience > > prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how all the pieces went > > together, manipulate them all in place then hold em there while all > > the little allen screws were tightened in a specific sequence. The > > bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch as in order to reset > > the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of the water, then pretty > > much disassemble the unit and start over with one piece in a slightly > > different place :) heheh fortunately we got 'close enough' on the > > first try. :) > > > > In use when shifting from forward to reverse, the blades would swing > > around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the opposite direction. In all > > fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to install, and noisy in > > operation, it did in fact work like a charm. Great power in reverse, > > great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't do it again tho LOL :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > > > Just as a tease you could always try one of these 'auto props' > > > http://tinyurl. com/33jfa4 > > > which self feather and self pitch allowing maximum transfer of power > > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead or astern. > > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at idle and hence no > > > glazing. > > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent up front may save on > > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? or know anyone who has. > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock > > > the tranny in reverse? > > > > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > > > wheelhouse once > > > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > > > controlled brake from the > > > > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14910|14910|2007-10-15 22:07:43|seeratlas|Last one "in" is a rotten egg....|bought a boat :) seer| 14911|14910|2007-10-15 22:10:58|Wesley Cox|Re: Last one "in" is a rotten egg....|Do tell. ?? ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Last one "in" is a rotten egg.... bought a boat :) seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.11/1071 - Release Date: 10/15/2007 6:48 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14912|14910|2007-10-15 22:55:37|Tom|Re: Last one "in" is a rotten egg....|Thats Cheaten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Cox" To: Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Last one "in" is a rotten egg.... > Do tell. ?? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Last one "in" is a rotten egg.... > > > bought a boat :) > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.11/1071 - Release Date: > 10/15/2007 6:48 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14913|14910|2007-10-15 23:34:05|seeratlas|Re: Last one "in" is a rotten egg....|Yeah it is, but fell into a hull that matched up very well with what I was getting ready to build:) 43'ish Brewer design, steel multi chine, single keel, but with an onboard leg setup for careening:) skeg hung rudder, isolation aluminum ph with full inside steering station. Very similar to his Pan Oceanic 46. Hull pro built by Kanter in Canada. 250 fuel, 250 water, displ. about 28k. lots of work to do, been on the hard bout a year or so. Divorce case... why does the ex-wife always get the boat? :( We'll see how long it takes to get her refurbed and back in the drink. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Thats Cheaten > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wesley Cox" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:10 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Last one "in" is a rotten egg.... > > > > Do tell. ?? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:07 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Last one "in" is a rotten egg.... > > > > > > bought a boat :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.11/1071 - Release Date: > > 10/15/2007 6:48 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14914|14838|2007-10-16 04:19:59|sae140|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > gallon kit. No response. > Brent > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting cheques. Colin| 14915|14826|2007-10-16 07:37:48|Wally Paine|Re: Prop Spin|Hello Greg, How do you get the prop to stop in line behind the skeg? Wally Paine --- ge@... wrote: > More than a few times in emergencies I've had to go > from full ahead to full > astern. Lots of marine transmissions are built to > take just this sort of > abuse. I'd be surprised if the same can be said for > a lot of the high > priced feathering and folding props. > > A large, fixed, 2 blade, slow turning prop for a > cruising sailboat is near > impossible to beat. It is efficient, dead simple, > and in-line behind the > skeg or keel is well protected. If anything it > reduces the drag of the > aperture while sailing, giving a net negative prop > drag. I'm yet to see any > folding or feathering prop do better than that. For > racing, or if the prop > is not carried in an aperture, then the situation is > different. > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 5:51 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Prop Spin > > > > More than that Brent, half a knot at best > improvement is not worth the > money for cruising...could buy a decent genset for > what that prop cost... > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > In BC, where logs are a problem , such complex and > expensive props > > would be a big bill to repair. They may be OK in > cleaner waters, but > > wouldn't be practical here. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > I put one of the italian self feathering 3 > blades on my 54. It was > > > remarkably complex, took me and my local 40 > years of experience > > > prop/shaft man about 2 hours to figure out how > all the pieces went > > > together, manipulate them all in place then hold > em there while all > > > the little allen screws were tightened in a > specific sequence. The > > > bitch was that you had to guess at optimum pitch > as in order to reset > > > the pitch, you had to pull the boat back out of > the water, then pretty > > > much disassemble the unit and start over with > one piece in a slightly > > > different place :) heheh fortunately we got > 'close enough' on the > > > first try. :) > > > > > > In use when shifting from forward to reverse, > the blades would swing > > > around and 'BANG' as they locked up in the > opposite direction. In all > > > fairness, tho incredibly expensive, difficult to > install, and noisy in > > > operation, it did in fact work like a charm. > Great power in reverse, > > > great reduction in drag while sailing. I won't > do it again tho LOL :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > > > > > Just as a tease you could always try one of > these 'auto props' > > > > http://tinyurl. > com/33jfa4 > > > > which self feather and self pitch allowing > maximum transfer of > power > > > > to the water at any engine RPM, either ahead > or astern. > > > > They claim this fully loads the engine even at > idle and hence no > > > > glazing. > > > > I know they will be expensive , but $s spent > up front may save on > > > > fuel bills and engine wear in the future! > > > > > > > > Has any one had experience with these props? > or know anyone who has. > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do > u use a brake or > lock > > > > the tranny in reverse? > > > > > I was just reading about a guy who would > brake his shaft from the > > > > wheelhouse once > > > > > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a > design to run a cable > > > > controlled brake from the > > > > > house to the shaft and what it might look > like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html| 14916|14838|2007-10-16 10:01:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit cards and not one debit card. If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit rating gets better and better. In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, after your bank account has been cleaned out. You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really have what it takes to go offshore? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > gallon kit. No response. > Brent > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting cheques. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14917|14838|2007-10-16 10:03:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|typo: However, people that - cannot - control their spending, do they really have what it takes to go offshore? _____ From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:00 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit cards and not one debit card. If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit rating gets better and better. In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, after your bank account has been cleaned out. You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really have what it takes to go offshore? Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > gallon kit. No response. > Brent > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting cheques. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14918|14910|2007-10-16 10:13:32|Ray|Re: Last one "in" is a rotten egg....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Yeah it is, but fell into a hull that matched up very well with what I > was getting ready to build:) 43'ish Brewer design, steel multi chine, > single keel, but with an onboard leg setup for careening:) skeg hung > rudder, isolation aluminum ph with full inside steering station. Pics????| 14919|14821|2007-10-16 12:39:52|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: Re wheel weights|No more moaning about scrap prices .... Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of US$1.80/lb on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14920|14838|2007-10-16 12:43:12|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I use a debit card (Visa Electron) and have had problems in the past because not everyone takes them but I noticed a straight Visa debit card and wonder if that would solve the problem.Have not tried one yet but Norton don't take Electron and I need to renew my anti-virus software cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 14921|14838|2007-10-16 12:43:21|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I use a debit card (Visa Electron) and have had problems in the past because not everyone takes them but I noticed a straight Visa debit card and wonder if that would solve the problem.Have not tried one yet but Norton don't take Electron and I need to renew my anti-virus software cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 14922|14821|2007-10-16 16:55:27|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi All This, in part, may be why: http://www.news.com/China-%27e%27-bikes-silently-drive-lead-demand/2100- 11392_3-6212734.html?tag=fd_nbs_ent Fortunately, "new" technology, mainly lithium ion, seems to be easing some of the pressure. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe 209 Derwent Street Island Bay, Wellington NEW ZEALAND +64 (04) 938 6018 027 563 5018 They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ian and Jean Campbell Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 5:37 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights No more moaning about scrap prices .... Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of US$1.80/lb on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14923|14821|2007-10-16 17:15:56|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Jim, Please be more carefull, you just published your full contact details on the web. It's ok on a private email but on a public forum it is not advisable. There are all sorts of freaks out there! By the the way, I am in Auckland. Should you come this way, lets have a drink. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Hi All > > This, in part, may be why: > > http://www.news.com/China-%27e%27-bikes-silently-drive-lead-demand/2100- > 11392_3-6212734.html?tag=fd_nbs_ent > > Fortunately, "new" technology, mainly lithium ion, seems to be easing > some of the pressure. > > Enjoy > > Jim Baltaxe > 209 Derwent Street > Island Bay, Wellington > NEW ZEALAND > +64 (04) 938 6018 > 027 563 5018 > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Ian and Jean Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 5:37 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > > > > sgId=14919/stime=1192552792/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179> No more > moaning about scrap prices .... > > Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of > US$1.80/lb on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 14924|14821|2007-10-16 17:27:44|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Paul Yes, I am aware of that. I am taking a chance that I will become aware of any attacks and control them before they do any significant damage - either to me or to other machines I might have to protect. Email me directly and we'll chat. I'd love to have a drink and talk boats. Enjoy Jim ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 10:16 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights Hi Jim, Please be more carefull, you just published your full contact details on the web. It's ok on a private email but on a public forum it is not advisable. There are all sorts of freaks out there! By the the way, I am in Auckland. Should you come this way, lets have a drink. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Hi All > > This, in part, may be why: > > http://www.news.com/China-%27e%27-bikes-silently-drive-lead-demand/2100- > 11392_3-6212734.html?tag=fd_nbs_ent > > Fortunately, "new" technology, mainly lithium ion, seems to be easing > some of the pressure. > > Enjoy > > Jim > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] > On Behalf Of Ian and Jean Campbell > Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 5:37 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > > > > > sgId=14919/stime=1192552792/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179> No more > moaning about scrap prices .... > > Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of > US$1.80/lb on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14925|14821|2007-10-16 20:06:14|troller10|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi All, I just finished the two halves of a 40 ft swain. Still need to put the two halves together. Also I've been collecting wheel weights and melting them down into bricks. Out of 80 gallons of wheel weights, (5 five gallon buckets and a 55 gallon drum), I ended up with about 1800 lbs of bricked lead. Had to pay 40 cents a pound from the scrap yard for the 55 drum (1,700 lbs). Got the five 5 gallon buckets, (6 or 700 lbs), from the local tire shop for $100 total. The newer flat wheel weights seem to have a lot more impurities in them, (adhesive, tin, antimony or zinc, aluminum etc...) I used a Turkey Fryer. Just put the weights into the fryer basket and melt. Pull the basket up and shake molten lead from the clips and other steel that stays in the basket. Skim off the dirt and other small floating junk with a large perforated serving spoon and then pour into some bread pans. Let cool and stack then up. Good luck everyone. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Baltaxe" wrote: > > Hi Paul > > Yes, I am aware of that. I am taking a chance that I will become aware > of any attacks and control them before they do any significant damage - > either to me or to other machines I might have to protect. > > Email me directly and we'll chat. I'd love to have a drink and talk > boats. > > Enjoy > > Jim > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson > Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 10:16 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > > > > Hi Jim, > > Please be more carefull, you just published your full contact details on > > the web. It's ok on a private email but on a public forum it is not > advisable. There are all sorts of freaks out there! > > By the the way, I am in Auckland. Should you come this way, lets have a > drink. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > Jim Baltaxe wrote: > > Hi All > > > > This, in part, may be why: > > > > > http://www.news.com/China-%27e%27-bikes-silently-drive-lead-demand/2100- > -> > > 11392_3-6212734.html?tag=fd_nbs_ent > > > > Fortunately, "new" technology, mainly lithium ion, seems to be easing > > some of the pressure. > > > > Enjoy > > > > Jim > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] > > On Behalf Of Ian and Jean Campbell > > Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 5:37 a.m. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > > > > > > > > > > > > sgId=14919/stime=1192552792/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848621/nc3=4507179> No > more > > moaning about scrap prices .... > > > > Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of > > US$1.80/lb on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14926|14838|2007-10-16 20:08:00|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Tom my adress is 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 What would it cost to have you send a couple of gallons worth? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yep that does kinda suck, anymore lot of outfits wont deal with you unless > you have good credit and credit cards. I miss the ol days when they would > ship cod and you just leave envelope with money on front door. > I orderd extra if you need some send me an address and Ill see what it > takes to ship to you . > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:32 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + > > shipping. > >> with a little luck should show up by the end of week. > >> Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they would want > >> youre buisness. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "brentswain38" > >> To: > >> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > >> > >> > >> > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No > >> > response. > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 > >> >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html > >> >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. > >> >> Tom > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14927|14187|2007-10-16 20:11:02|brentswain38|Re: Airhead improvements|There is no need to make an airhead lid airtight as the fan removes any smell, and you have a 2 inch intake to let air in anyway. A 12 inch bucket is ideal, making a standard 5 gallon plastic bucket slightly smaller than ideal, but it would work fine anyway. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Skip the trap door. Just put a raised flange on the hole and put a > stainless 5 inch pot lid from the thrift store over the hole when you > are taking a leak and remove it and set it aside when taking a dump. > A plastic bowl makes a good fibreglass mold for the bottom. It can > be sikaflexed into the bottom of a 5 gallon plastic bucket, cut to 12 > inches long. > Molding the seat arrangement is a bit of work. Never though of clay > for a mold . That would be easy. It is a bit of work, but this > socialist solution is far better than the capitalist one of paying > $1,000 . > In fact I think the socialist solution of us exchanging info on how > to do things yourself is far better than the capitalist one of not > doing anything to help each other out unless there is a quick buck for > each of us in it , or charging $1,000 dollars for a few dollars worth > of plastic , just because I could.. > If I were anything but a socialist I wouldn't give you these > suggestions unless I were paid for it, nor would I spend long hours on > this and other chatlines trying to offer solutions to peoples > problems without the ability to hand anyone a bill for it. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ahh, I was thinking the same thing. The gasketed 'air proof' toilet > > seat and lid looks like an easy modification of existing 'equipment'. > > The 'bowl' with liquid separator, I would think could be readily > > made up in a clay form with reinforced resin. Other than affixing the > > trap door for solids, the composting tank below could be made out of > > any suitable nylon or stainless tub with the inside lower surface > > shaped (as you suggested)into a bowl to ensure that the entire > > contents of the composter would be shifted by a circular 'stirrer' > > activated by a crank. If this is all there is, how do we get to 1k$ > > or in other units 1500 $ and a lot more!! Seems pretty extravagant. > > LOL I can see making one using one of the tubs for the water "shop > > vac" units out there, utilize the clamping system to hold the seat > > structure on top , add a gasketed hose to a remote liquid collector, > > put in a large stainless 'mixxing bowl' sized to the tank, fabricate > > your matching stainless 'crank stirrer', set up a small vent and voila. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I built my own , using urethane foam for the centre of the mold and > > > plywood and sheet fibreglass for the rest. It was a lot of work, but > > > very inexpensive. With an injection mold it would be extremly cheap to > > > produce. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, did you buy an Airhead? or build your own? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's been recently discoverd that people who grow up in > > exceptionally > > > > > sterile conditions have grossly under developed immune systems. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "aguysailing" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have an airhead which Brent has been aboard to look at and > > > discuss > > > > > > over some thimbleberry tea. > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought I would pass this post on to the owner of AirHead. > > Here > > > > > > are his remarks: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have my source material with me here in Maine however I > > > will > > > > > > work from memory as best as I can. Please understand that it > > has > > > > > > been years since I have had to address this topic. Also > > understand > > > > > > that I began this process with a whole lot of concern about just > > > this > > > > > > sort of thing and as I became more educated my concern > > diminished. > > > > > > Somewhere in my instructions I provide some details on pathogen > > > topic > > > > > > so please refer to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > > sufficient to kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a > > > hazard > > > > > > no matter when you dump it. In that case, the benefit is an > > > illusion > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets give this statement some thought for a moment. Imagine > > > that if > > > > > > 150 degrees F was the magic number and the only factor necessary > > > for > > > > > > killing pathogens then we here in America would be standing and > > > > > > living on thousands of years of hazardous waste with all of > those > > > > > > Native Americas and beloved forefathers running around polluting > > > the > > > > > > place. I mean if (it) "remains a hazard no matter when you > dump > > > > > > it"... that could go on forever.... Hmm what about all of > those > > > > > > forgotten outhouses in our back yards. Better not let the > > children > > > > > > play anywhere for fear of getting Hep B! > > > > > > > > > > > > The above statement is missing some vital information for > > instance: > > > > > > According to my research viruses and bacteria are destroyed in > > > short > > > > > > periods of time (some in hours others in days) at low > > temperatures > > > > > > (70's and up) due to mesophillic (sp?) action. Destruction > > occurs > > > > > > quicker at higher temperatures. > > > > > > > > > > > > Round worms are the tough ones and require higher temperatures > > but > > > > > > frankly if you have them then you would know it, (117F for a > week > > > > > > comes to mind as the time/temp combination for destruction of > > round > > > > > > worm. (as I said I don't have my reference material with me). > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the urine. back in 1998 before I even started designing > > the > > > > > > Air Head I contacted the US Center for Disease Control (CDC). > > > The > > > > > > contact said "urine is sterile". Further research indicated > that > > > > > > while in some populations around the globe pathogens could be > > found > > > > > > in urine this was not the case in healthy populations such as > > > the US > > > > > > and the particular author stated that he had included a list of > > > > > > potential urine pathogens only for the sake of completeness.* > > The > > > > > > same book went on to describe the reality of our "sewage > > treatment" > > > > > > facilities in that there ARE pathogens present after treatment > > > unless > > > > > > the whole batch is heated, which generally is NOT the case > > with our > > > > > > municipal systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > So just to drive my point home: > > > > > > > > > > > > We are comparing a very small possibility of a very small > > amount of > > > > > > contaminated urine in a urine separating toilet to DEFINITE > > > > > > contamination from sewage treatment plants flowing into our > > > rivers > > > > > > all over the country every single day! > > > > > > > > > > > > *Jenkins "The Humanure Handbook" > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the odor in Brent Swain's toilet, he should contact me. > > It > > > > > > doesn't sound like he is using enough peat in the mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling you man no offensive odors, I mean it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Geoff Trott > > > > > > General Manager > > > > > > Eos Design LLC. > > > > > > Portland, ME > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An outhouse stuck over the stern is the most common system > > > seen in > > > > > > SE Asia. > > > > > > > Can't get any simpler. Only 1 moving part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you need to stick a stack on the head to control smell, are > > > you > > > > > > not > > > > > > > exporting your problem to your neighbors downwind? It has > > been my > > > > > > > experience in a motor home, once the holding tank starts > > heating > > > > > > up, you > > > > > > > can't drive fast enough to get away from the smell. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a boat, if the composting does not raise the temperature > > > > > > sufficient to > > > > > > > kill human pathogens (150F) the waste remains a hazard no > > matter > > > > > > when you > > > > > > > dump it. In that case, the benefit is an illusion only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both liquids and solids need to be treated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PATHOGENS IN URINE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Healthy urine on its way out of the human body may contain > > up to > > > > > > 1,000 > > > > > > > bacteria, of several types, per milliliter. More than 100,000 > > > > > > bacteria of a > > > > > > > single type per milliliter signals a urinary tract infection. > > > > > > Infected > > > > > > > individuals will pass pathogens in the urine that may include: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bacteria Disease > > > > > > > Salmonella typhi Typhoid > > > > > > > Salmonella paratyphi Paratyphoid fever > > > > > > > Leptospira Leptospirosis > > > > > > > Yersinia Yersiniosis > > > > > > > Escherichia coli Diarrhea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Worms Disease > > > > > > > Schistosoma haematobium schistosomiasis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Source: Feachem et al., 1980; and Franceys, et al. 1992; and > > > Lewis, > > > > > > Ricki. > > > > > > > (1992). FDA Consumer, September 1992. p. 41. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:31 AM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead improvements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 bladed hoop id s what I have witha crank on the side. > > > > > > > If it's too cool to compost , then there should be no smell, > > > so why > > > > > > > worry about it. Hopefully bacteria will come back to life > > when it > > > > > > > warms, if and when they are needed. > > > > > > > When the cabin is warm the head will be too.Keep it simple . > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > , paulcotter@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good tips. Are you separating liquids and solids? I was > > > > > > considering > > > > > > > a afixing an > > > > > > > > automobile windshield wiper fluid or engine coolant > > > reservoir to > > > > > > > collect liquids - > > > > > > > > both are large volume and have smallish fill holes. I've > also > > > > > > > contemplated running > > > > > > > > a small water coil under the unit keep things simmering > a bit > > > > > > when > > > > > > > its cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I am envisioning a 2-bladed hoop with a shaft > connected > > > > > > > directly to crank on > > > > > > > > the front or back of the chamber. Is this how you have > put it > > > > > > > together? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've made some major improvements to my airhead type > head.I > > > > > > > changed the > > > > > > > > > mixer to a full hoop so I wont be dumping on it, and > > > welded the > > > > > > > handle > > > > > > > > > at a 90 degree angle to it so the hoop will sit > > horizontally > > > > > > when > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > in use. This covers a much bigger section of the bowl. I > > plan > > > > > > to > > > > > > > put a > > > > > > > > > fibreglass bowl in the bottom ( half sphere )so there will > > > be no > > > > > > > > > unmixed parts . > > > > > > > > > It seems to mix much better already. I put a 2 inch intake > > > hole > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the air and put a Feebreeze , wick type deoderant > bottle in > > > > > > > it ,and it > > > > > > > > > almost completely eliminated the smell, even after a big > > > > > > dump.Now > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > find out how long the bottle lasts . > > > > > > > > > When I get the bowl in I plan to throw a few rocks or 2 > > inch > > > > > > > square > > > > > > > > > wooden blocks ( to minimise wear on the fibreglass) to > help > > > > > > break > > > > > > > > > things up and mix better. > > > > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 14928|14838|2007-10-16 20:18:45|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I met a guy in Mexico who couldn't control his spending and cruised on the credit card. That was 1988. He has been paying off his debts ever since, and hasn't cruised much since. I got a great deal on a new hookah he bought and used only once. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using > a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. > Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting > cheques. > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14929|14838|2007-10-16 20:53:34|kingsknight4life|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg Greg All very good points and very true. I use both (cards)but could easily see the arguemnt for either case. When I went to Brazil I mostly used the Mastercard for many of the reasons that Greg stated above. Mostly it was used for "protection " as the credit card co.'s and banks have way more "clout' than most individals do, so if something goes wrong they can fight on your behalf with much better results. Rowland| 14930|14838|2007-10-16 20:56:02|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Brent I should get them in another day or two, They were shipped pri mail from Florida to California. . I think they came out to around $13 per gal kit. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Tom > my adress is 3798 Laurel Dr Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 > What would it cost to have you send a couple of gallons worth? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Yep that does kinda suck, anymore lot of outfits wont deal with you > unless >> you have good credit and credit cards. I miss the ol days when they > would >> ship cod and you just leave envelope with money on front door. >> I orderd extra if you need some send me an address and Ill see > what it >> takes to ship to you . >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:32 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never >> > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. >> > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them >> > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two >> > gallon kit. No response. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> I just orderd from them online, the 5 gallon kit is $49.75 US + >> > shipping. >> >> with a little luck should show up by the end of week. >> >> Interesting that they wont respond to you, seems to me they > would want >> >> youre buisness. >> >> Tom >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:08 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Ive sent many emails and phone calls to Hy tech for prices . No >> >> > response. >> >> > Brent >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> This is what Im using on the interior of my 26 >> >> >> http://www.hytechsales.com/buy.html >> >> >> hopefully it is good enough to keep condinsation at bay. >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14931|22|2007-10-16 21:04:39|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's 44 Schooner/IMGP0400.JPG Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : on the hard, in the water :) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20%2044%20Schooner/IMGP0400.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 14932|14910|2007-10-16 21:08:56|seeratlas|Re: Last one "in" PICS IN "Files" section|Ok, loaded up a details files, and two pics of my new boat, on the hard and in the water, in the "Files" section of the group under "Seer's 44 Schooner". Sticks are not in . seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Yeah it is, but fell into a hull that matched up very well with what I > > was getting ready to build:) 43'ish Brewer design, steel multi chine, > > single keel, but with an onboard leg setup for careening:) skeg hung > > rudder, isolation aluminum ph with full inside steering station. > > Pics???? > | 14933|14821|2007-10-16 21:22:48|Tom|Re: Re wheel weights|Nope Im still gona moan and I still wont pay 40 cents a pound for trashey wheel weights. There are other alternatives. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian and Jean Campbell" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > No more moaning about scrap prices .... > > Continuing strength in lead prices ...reached a record high of US$1.80/lb > on October 10, 2007 on the London Metal Exchange... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14934|14838|2007-10-16 22:22:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|My first million was spent on wine, women and song. The rest was spent foolishly. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? I met a guy in Mexico who couldn't control his spending and cruised on the credit card. That was 1988. He has been paying off his debts ever since, and hasn't cruised much since. I got a great deal on a new hookah he bought and used only once. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using > a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. > Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting > cheques. > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14935|14838|2007-10-17 04:12:38|sae140|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Fortunately I have sufficient capital such that I have never needed to apply for credit, nor can I ever forsee my needing credit. I don't have any money problems and certainly don't have any problems controlling spending - so don't make your arrogant 'superior' assumptions about everyone, Greg. I dumped the credit cards on a point of principle. The tactics you describe may be 'sharp' on a personal level, but are parasitic on those people who use credit cards unwisely. Your tactics are also parasitic on the rest of society, by effectively raising the prices of goods for everyone else. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure and running of the credit card industry (whether you like it or not, and whether you participate in it or not) - and if you're not paying your fair share when using their cards, then the cost is down to someone else. There is legislation in Britain that the prices of goods sold on the High Street cannot be varied according to the method of payment. So I - as a cash customer - am subsidising the credit card customer, as the cost to the retailer (of several percent) for the use of credit cards is simply added to the mark-up price of the goods. You may think your financial strategies are cute, Greg - but you're screwing the rest of us in the process. Think on. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using > a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. > Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting > cheques. > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14936|14838|2007-10-17 04:18:09|sae140|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I often see signs in petrol stations saying that Electron cards are not accepted - dunno why this is - but have *never* had a problem with the straight Visa card I use. Sometimes on-line purchases are slightly cheaper with a Debit than a Credit card, but not always. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > I use a debit card (Visa Electron) and have had > problems in the past because not everyone takes them > but I noticed a straight Visa debit card and wonder if > that would solve the problem.Have not tried one yet > but Norton don't take Electron and I need to renew my > anti-virus software > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 14937|14838|2007-10-17 05:31:09|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I am all for free debate but anyone would get the impression the site was dealing with a load of bankers. Lets get back to boats. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14938|14838|2007-10-17 16:11:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|The cost of goods on High Street, who gives a rats ass? Never once heard of any boats cruising there. When cruising, cash makes you a target. Get robbed, wallet is lost, falls overboard, you are done. No assumptions needed. Many years offshore experiences, tons of different countries, gone more than 5 years at a time. The best, safest way to access your money is credit cards. Carry more than one. Credit card companies reward people who pay on time, because they are good business. It is the people that are slow to pay that raise costs - for which they are penalized with interest charges. No subsidies are involved. Most stores would rather have credit cards than cash, because there is less handling and security issues, and people tend to spend more increasing volumes and profits. Banks push debit cards because the customer assumes the liability, increasing profits to the bank. Credit is bound by religious prejudice. Capital by social prejudice. How many people were taught in school how to use money? How many were taught Greek history? Why is that? Which one is likely to be more useful? Capitalism, socialism, the only "ism" to take offshore is "realism". The world is what it is. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:13 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Fortunately I have sufficient capital such that I have never needed to apply for credit, nor can I ever forsee my needing credit. I don't have any money problems and certainly don't have any problems controlling spending - so don't make your arrogant 'superior' assumptions about everyone, Greg. I dumped the credit cards on a point of principle. The tactics you describe may be 'sharp' on a personal level, but are parasitic on those people who use credit cards unwisely. Your tactics are also parasitic on the rest of society, by effectively raising the prices of goods for everyone else. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure and running of the credit card industry (whether you like it or not, and whether you participate in it or not) - and if you're not paying your fair share when using their cards, then the cost is down to someone else. There is legislation in Britain that the prices of goods sold on the High Street cannot be varied according to the method of payment. So I - as a cash customer - am subsidising the credit card customer, as the cost to the retailer (of several percent) for the use of credit cards is simply added to the mark-up price of the goods. You may think your financial strategies are cute, Greg - but you're screwing the rest of us in the process. Think on. Colin --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using > a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. > Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting > cheques. > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14939|14939|2007-10-17 16:58:49|Alex Christie|Cash vs Credit thread|We are really veering from the discussion of boats here too deep into "isms", which don't contribute to finishing a boat. Always when I'm leaving town this happens by strange coincedence, when I can't get to a computer! Cool the rhetoric please and get back to the actual boats and their construction. This ain't "origami finance". Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? The cost of goods on High Street, who gives a rats ass? Never once heard of any boats cruising there. When cruising, cash makes you a target. Get robbed, wallet is lost, falls overboard, you are done. No assumptions needed. Many years offshore experiences, tons of different countries, gone more than 5 years at a time. The best, safest way to access your money is credit cards. Carry more than one. Credit card companies reward people who pay on time, because they are good business. It is the people that are slow to pay that raise costs - for which they are penalized with interest charges. No subsidies are involved. Most stores would rather have credit cards than cash, because there is less handling and security issues, and people tend to spend more increasing volumes and profits. Banks push debit cards because the customer assumes the liability, increasing profits to the bank. Credit is bound by religious prejudice. Capital by social prejudice. How many people were taught in school how to use money? How many were taught Greek history? Why is that? Which one is likely to be more useful? Capitalism, socialism, the only "ism" to take offshore is "realism". The world is what it is. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:13 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Fortunately I have sufficient capital such that I have never needed to apply for credit, nor can I ever forsee my needing credit. I don't have any money problems and certainly don't have any problems controlling spending - so don't make your arrogant 'superior' assumptions about everyone, Greg. I dumped the credit cards on a point of principle. The tactics you describe may be 'sharp' on a personal level, but are parasitic on those people who use credit cards unwisely. Your tactics are also parasitic on the rest of society, by effectively raising the prices of goods for everyone else. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure and running of the credit card industry (whether you like it or not, and whether you participate in it or not) - and if you're not paying your fair share when using their cards, then the cost is down to someone else. There is legislation in Britain that the prices of goods sold on the High Street cannot be varied according to the method of payment. So I - as a cash customer - am subsidising the credit card customer, as the cost to the retailer (of several percent) for the use of credit cards is simply added to the mark-up price of the goods. You may think your financial strategies are cute, Greg - but you're screwing the rest of us in the process. Think on. Colin --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own many credit > cards and not one debit card. > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you free use > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a lot of free > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is typically > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase protection, > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the card, so > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and your credit > rating gets better and better. > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own money. > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no payment lag. > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are in your > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards provide no > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that is lost. > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something goes wrong > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You are in a > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the charges > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit card, > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or credit card, > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be worse if > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend money you > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they really > have what it takes to go offshore? > > Greg > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of sae140 > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:20 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > To order on line you need a credit card. Never had one . I've never > > borrowed money from a bank in my life so that is not an option. > > I asked them many times , how much money I would have to send them > > via postal money order to cover cost and shipping to BC for a two > > gallon kit. No response. > > Brent > > > > I dumped all my credit cards about 10 years ago and went over to using > a Debit Card instead. They are accepted when ordering anything online. > Also useful on the High Street, as some stores have stopped accepting > cheques. > Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1075 - Release Date: 17/10/2007 9:38 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14940|14940|2007-10-17 17:21:14|seeratlas|good time to take a look around.|for those who have not started yet, there are some astonishing deals on steel boats in the areas where fibreglass is king. If you have the skills to build a boat, you surely have the skills to refurb or take over someone else's project or an older boat that's just been sitting out on the hard. no guarantees but it IS possible to find something very similar to what you were looking for..trust me :) The financial turmoil in the housing market is kicking the snot out of the boat market..I'd humbly suggest looking around, as the man said, it couldn't hurt. seer| 14941|14940|2007-10-17 18:18:59|Jim Phillips|Re: good time to take a look around.|Well, if Seer is going to bring up this subject on a boatbuilding forum, I will add my $0.02 worth as well. If it is not ok, Alex, please let me know and delete this email. I heartily agree with Seer about cheap steel boats, especially in the US where, like the man says, fibreglass is king. There are not many steel boats around (compared to plastic boats) but they are cheap because the N. Americans don't like steel and this keeps demand down. Go to UK, Australia, NZ, Holland, France, or out into the truly isolated cruising grounds and you will find many more steel boats. The problem in Oz, Uk, NZ etc is that the locals recognise the value of a steel boat and price it accordingly. With the downward direction of the US$, it makes even more sense for non-USA citizens to be buying used boats in the US and taking them home. I have read about a couple of Aussies who have bought boats in the US, cruised them across the Pacific and the difference in price has paid for the trip. That difference will be getting even better now with the condition of the US peso and their home mortgage crunch. We bought a 30' 1976 Dutch-built sloop for US$7500 in Florida, USA. It came with roller furling, SSB, VHF, depthsounder, autopilot, windvane, 2 sets of scuba gear, dive compressor, 2 dinghies, 28 hp diesel, 2 complete sets of sails etc etc. What a deal. It was advertised on the net for 6 months before we found it and only one person had taken a look in all that time. It was sort of like finding an uncut diamond covered in mud, lying in the gutter on Madison Av while the NY'ers rushed past. They are out there, boats like this, just waiting for some TLC and a bloke who wants to sail. We had to sandblast and repaint, weld steel plate over a thin area, new gearbox, new watertanks, repair the toilet, kick an initially stubborn engine into life etc. Took a month and $3000 to get her ready and then we were gone, heading south for Cuba asap. There was too much gear, so we sold some of it along the way. Some of the electronic crap just broke, so we threw it overboard. Then after finishing our cruising (due to a new addition to the family), we sold the boat for $8000 back in the US. Could have sold it for double that in Oz but our lives took a different tack. All up, it took 5 weeks out of our lives from landing in Miami airport until we were out on the water sailing our boat and heading south. We missed out on the satisfaction of building it ourselves, but we were out sailing bloody fast. I really enjoy reading all about the origami method of boat building. If I were going to build, it would be the way to go, without a doubt. Brent and Greg are very different personalities but both have plenty to offer. Sometimes even in entertainment value as well. Ha ha. And Alex is a truely patient, generous man. Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to know when the three of you (Brent, Greg, Alex) intend to cast off the mooring lines and go off-shore cruising again. Us? Well, for now we are waiting for our crew to grow a little taller before we go again. Hope to see some of you out there sometime. All the very best, Jim. --- seeratlas wrote: > for those who have not started yet, there are some > astonishing deals > on steel boats in the areas where fibreglass is > king. If you have the > skills to build a boat, you surely have the skills > to refurb or take > over someone else's project or an older boat that's > just been sitting > out on the hard. no guarantees but it IS possible to > find something > very similar to what you were looking for..trust me > :) > > The financial turmoil in the housing market is > kicking the snot out of > the boat market..I'd humbly suggest looking around, > as the man said, > it couldn't hurt. > > seer > > Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free unlimited storage. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html| 14942|14821|2007-10-17 19:29:21|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Paul I took your advice and stopped hanging myself out as bait, even though it is trivial to recover a heap of information from other or hidden sources/fields. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. ________________________________ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 10:16 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights Hi Jim, Please be more carefull, you just published your full contact details on the web. It's ok on a private email but on a public forum it is not advisable. There are all sorts of freaks out there! By the the way, I am in Auckland. Should you come this way, lets have a drink. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Hi All > > This, in part, may be why: > > http://www.news.com/China-%27e%27-bikes-silently-drive-lead-demand/2100- > 11392_3-6212734.html?tag=fd_nbs_ent > > Fortunately, "new" technology, mainly lithium ion, seems to be easing > some of the pressure. > > Enjoy > > Jim Baltaxe . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14943|14821|2007-10-17 21:21:16|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Re wheel weights|Hi Jim, Agreed! but no need to make it even more trivial :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Hi Paul > > I took your advice and stopped hanging myself out as bait, even though > it is trivial to recover a heap of information from other or hidden > sources/fields. > > Enjoy > > Jim Baltaxe > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > ________________________________ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson > Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 10:16 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Re wheel weights > > > > Hi Jim, > > Please be more carefull, you just published your full contact details on > > the web. It's ok on a private email but on a public forum it is not > advisable. There are all sorts of freaks out there! > > By the the way, I am in Auckland. Should you come this way, lets have a > drink. | 14944|14940|2007-10-17 21:43:34|seeratlas|Re: good time to take a look around.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Well, if Seer is going to bring up this subject on a > boatbuilding forum, I will add my $0.02 worth as well. > > I heartily agree with Seer about cheap steel boats, >... That difference will > be getting even better now with the condition of the > US peso and their home mortgage crunch. "US peso" LOL, we americans can now rightfully consider ourselves truly 'zinged' with that one :) seer| 14945|14910|2007-10-17 21:53:01|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Last one "in" PICS IN "Files" section|Great looking boat Seer. You done good :-) seeratlas wrote: > Ok, loaded up a details files, and two pics of my new boat, on the > hard and in the water, in the "Files" section of the group under > "Seer's 44 Schooner". -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 14946|14838|2007-10-17 22:13:07|audeojude|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I am in the midst of a credit card dispute right now and don't expect them to put much more than a cursory amount of effort into your case. what they end up doing is taking your information and then sending it to the merchants bank to see if the merchants bank will refund the money to your credit card. If not your credit card company wont refund you at all. also I have had to put documentation together 3 times so far to proceed and they will mail the rebuttal to me postdated 5 days from the date you have to have your answer back to them or you forfeit the dispute. By the time it has gotten to me in the mail I have had 2 days and 1 day to get 16 to 20 pages of documentation together and get it into their hands. For charges where you card has been stolen or your credit card information used by someone else maybe it is different but in a dispute over a product or service... just be careful how much you expect them to care. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own > many credit > > cards and not one debit card. > > > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you > free use > > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a > lot of free > > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is > typically > > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase > protection, > > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the > card, so > > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and > your credit > > rating gets better and better. > > > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own > money. > > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no > payment lag. > > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are > in your > > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards > provide no > > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that > is lost. > > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something > goes wrong > > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You > are in a > > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the > charges > > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit > card, > > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or > credit card, > > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be > worse if > > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend > money you > > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they > really > > have what it takes to go offshore? > > > > Greg > > Greg > > All very good points and very true. I use both (cards)but could > easily see the arguemnt for either case. When I went to Brazil I > mostly used the Mastercard for many of the reasons that Greg stated > above. Mostly it was used for "protection " as the credit card co.'s > and banks have way more "clout' than most individals do, so if > something goes wrong they can fight on your behalf with much better > results. > > Rowland > | 14947|14838|2007-10-18 01:50:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Tell them you are surprised that such a wonderful company could have made such a horrible mistake, and how much you believe they will correct the problem. A lot of what happens next is a test. If you give up too easily, they will think you are just trying to get free money. I just finished a fight with an insurance company. 10 times they told me I had no claim. 10 times +1 I told them I did - and they paid. . _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of audeojude Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? I am in the midst of a credit card dispute right now and don't expect them to put much more than a cursory amount of effort into your case. what they end up doing is taking your information and then sending it to the merchants bank to see if the merchants bank will refund the money to your credit card. If not your credit card company wont refund you at all. also I have had to put documentation together 3 times so far to proceed and they will mail the rebuttal to me postdated 5 days from the date you have to have your answer back to them or you forfeit the dispute. By the time it has gotten to me in the mail I have had 2 days and 1 day to get 16 to 20 pages of documentation together and get it into their hands. For charges where you card has been stolen or your credit card information used by someone else maybe it is different but in a dispute over a product or service... just be careful how much you expect them to care. scott --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own > many credit > > cards and not one debit card. > > > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you > free use > > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a > lot of free > > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is > typically > > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase > protection, > > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the > card, so > > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and > your credit > > rating gets better and better. > > > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own > money. > > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no > payment lag. > > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are > in your > > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards > provide no > > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that > is lost. > > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something > goes wrong > > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You > are in a > > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the > charges > > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit > card, > > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or > credit card, > > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be > worse if > > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend > money you > > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they > really > > have what it takes to go offshore? > > > > Greg > > Greg > > All very good points and very true. I use both (cards)but could > easily see the arguemnt for either case. When I went to Brazil I > mostly used the Mastercard for many of the reasons that Greg stated > above. Mostly it was used for "protection " as the credit card co.'s > and banks have way more "clout' than most individals do, so if > something goes wrong they can fight on your behalf with much better > results. > > Rowland > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14948|14838|2007-10-18 04:32:01|sae140|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The cost of goods on High Street, who gives a rats ass? That just about sums you up, Greg. > The world is what it is. The world is what people make it. Some people try to change certain aspects of the world, for what they believe is the better - like offering alternatives not only to boat construction itself, but the manner in which a boat is fitted-out and the style of cruising which can be adopted within a minimal budget. Other people only see revenue streams and don't care about the underlying principles and adopt only a self-centred approach. Carry on with your sharp financial methods if you must Greg, but please spare us the details. This forum is for boat-building, not for promoting methods of playing credit-card and other financial games. Colin| 14949|14949|2007-10-18 06:00:02|seeratlas|Refinishing Teak, Any Experts out there?|Do we have any shipwrights out there? Or anyone else with any substantial experience at refinishing marine grade teak? My boat has the typical old style full teak interior and it needs cleaning, lightening, and refinishing. Any and all suggestions regarding methods and products would be appreciated. As it is, its mostly dark, I'd like to clean it, lighten it up, and finish it with some kind of durable non-gloss finish. As Always, thanks in advance :) seer| 14950|14949|2007-10-18 06:15:09|James Pronk|Re: Refinishing Teak, Any Experts out there?|You could try Tremclad, flat white LOL. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Do we have any shipwrights out there? Or anyone else with any > substantial experience at refinishing marine grade teak? > My boat has the typical old style full teak interior and it needs > cleaning, lightening, and refinishing. Any and all suggestions > regarding methods and products would be appreciated. As it is, its > mostly dark, I'd like to clean it, lighten it up, and finish it with > some kind of durable non-gloss finish. > > > As Always, thanks in advance :) > seer > | 14951|14949|2007-10-18 07:24:22|P-O Gustafsson|Re: Refinishing Teak, Any Experts out there?|> Do we have any shipwrights out there? Nope, just an old cartpenter this time... but try this place, there is usually plenty of info: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/search.php?searchid=557778 If link doesn't work, try and search for "interior teak" -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden http://beeman.se| 14952|732|2007-10-18 09:22:41|Tom|Lead|Hello all Lucked out and found all the lead i need, cut up an old keel I had and there was 600 lbs of clean solid lead in it and a friend of a friend had a pallet of 20 lbs bricks so I bought onother 600 lbs from him. Needed 1800 total and ended up with 1900 lbs. Now the fun begins, stacking it in and pouring to keep a good solid mass down low. hope to have room above ballast for a couple batteries but not sure that is going to work eather, its gona be close. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14953|14838|2007-10-18 10:04:46|Wesley Cox|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I've had good success sending this sort of thing to the Better Business Bureau. They do seem to have clout, as yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? I am in the midst of a credit card dispute right now and don't expect them to put much more than a cursory amount of effort into your case. what they end up doing is taking your information and then sending it to the merchants bank to see if the merchants bank will refund the money to your credit card. If not your credit card company wont refund you at all. also I have had to put documentation together 3 times so far to proceed and they will mail the rebuttal to me postdated 5 days from the date you have to have your answer back to them or you forfeit the dispute. By the time it has gotten to me in the mail I have had 2 days and 1 day to get 16 to 20 pages of documentation together and get it into their hands. For charges where you card has been stolen or your credit card information used by someone else maybe it is different but in a dispute over a product or service... just be careful how much you expect them to care. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Before I went cruising I used to design banking systems. I own > many credit > > cards and not one debit card. > > > > If you go with no fee cards, the credit card companies provide you > free use > > of their money, for up to 30 days. Over time, that represent a > lot of free > > interest to you. If your card is compromised, your liability is > typically > > limited to $50 or less. Many no fee cards provide you purchase > protection, > > insurance, and other benefits at no charge. The more you use the > card, so > > long as you pay it off on time, you pay no interest or fees, and > your credit > > rating gets better and better. > > > > In contrasts, when you use a debit card, you are spending your own > money. > > You do not receive the benefit of interest because there is no > payment lag. > > If your card is compromised, you can lose all the funds that are > in your > > bank account, with no recourse to recover them. Most debit cards > provide no > > benefits to you and do nothing to build your credit rating. > > > > When something goes wrong, with a debit card it is your money that > is lost. > > Just like cash, it is very hard to get this back. When something > goes wrong > > with a credit card, it is someone else's money that is lost. You > are in a > > much better negotiating position should you wish to claim that the > charges > > on your credit card are a mistake. Try arguing that with a debit > card, > > after your bank account has been cleaned out. > > > > You need to learn to live on a budget to own a debit card or > credit card, > > otherwise you will get into money problems. Credit cards can be > worse if > > you cannot restrain your spending, as they allow you to spend > money you > > don't have. However, people that control their spending, do they > really > > have what it takes to go offshore? > > > > Greg > > Greg > > All very good points and very true. I use both (cards)but could > easily see the arguemnt for either case. When I went to Brazil I > mostly used the Mastercard for many of the reasons that Greg stated > above. Mostly it was used for "protection " as the credit card co.'s > and banks have way more "clout' than most individals do, so if > something goes wrong they can fight on your behalf with much better > results. > > Rowland > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1075 - Release Date: 10/17/2007 9:38 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14954|14838|2007-10-18 11:14:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you did it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing the world. My method cost considerably less than building a steel boat, and was considerable more environmentally friendly, as I recycled a steel boat that was already built. I pay my bills in full, on time and get rewarded for doing so. I borrow money to make money, but I never borrow to spend money on myself. There is nothing sharp of self-centered about this. It is simply sound use of money, one of the main changes I made in my life, to get a boat and go cruising. Most of us are taught to be consumers, which keeps demand high, which keeps prices high. We are encouraged to spend, to borrow money, to spend it on ourselves, which makes it hard to pay our bills, for which we are penalized with interest. This places us on a treadmill that keeps us poor and working all our productive years. For most people this is the biggest obstacle in building a boat and going cruising, getting past the beliefs they have been taught from an early age. More boat building projects fail for financial reasons than any other. This makes finances the most important thing to be considered and discussed when building a boat. In North America it simply does not make economic sense to build a steel boat. As others have noted, the pricing is such that you are much better off to recycle a used steel boat. So long as the paint and zincs have been maintained, steel boats last longer than their owners. Recycling is the way to go with steel. This is why I recommend to people that are looking to build, at least in North America, build in aluminum. Aluminum boats hold their value like no other, so you have the best chance of building a boat that is worth the time and money you put into it. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The cost of goods on High Street, who gives a rats ass? That just about sums you up, Greg. > The world is what it is. The world is what people make it. Some people try to change certain aspects of the world, for what they believe is the better - like offering alternatives not only to boat construction itself, but the manner in which a boat is fitted-out and the style of cruising which can be adopted within a minimal budget. Other people only see revenue streams and don't care about the underlying principles and adopt only a self-centred approach. Carry on with your sharp financial methods if you must Greg, but please spare us the details. This forum is for boat-building, not for promoting methods of playing credit-card and other financial games. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14955|14838|2007-10-18 11:27:55|Michael Casling|Re: Gregs financial columm|The only thing that is changing, is the world's opinion about you, and it is not improving from this quadrant. Seriously Greg, the moderator has asked you to STFU, many in the group have asked you to drop this subject. What will it take to get you to stop with the financial drivel? I suspect that when the attention gets drawn to another member ( a recent boat purchase ) you have a mini breakdown / hissy fit, and write something to try and draw the attention back to you. Your credibilty goes down the more you write. That is my opinion, I can not speak for others. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you did > it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing > the world. > Greg > > | 14956|22|2007-10-18 11:59:51|Ray|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Nice looking Vessel, Seer - Hope she serves you well!| 14957|14838|2007-10-18 12:15:25|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Greg, Give it up! Tired of hearing your broken record. Either return to boats and boat building or go away. Jay From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you did it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing the world. My method cost considerably less than building a steel boat, and was considerable more environmentally friendly, as I recycled a steel boat that was already built. I pay my bills in full, on time and get rewarded for doing so. I borrow money to make money, but I never borrow to spend money on myself. There is nothing sharp of self-centered about this. It is simply sound use of money, one of the main changes I made in my life, to get a boat and go cruising. Most of us are taught to be consumers, which keeps demand high, which keeps prices high. We are encouraged to spend, to borrow money, to spend it on ourselves, which makes it hard to pay our bills, for which we are penalized with interest. This places us on a treadmill that keeps us poor and working all our productive years. For most people this is the biggest obstacle in building a boat and going cruising, getting past the beliefs they have been taught from an early age. More boat building projects fail for financial reasons than any other. This makes finances the most important thing to be considered and discussed when building a boat. In North America it simply does not make economic sense to build a steel boat. As others have noted, the pricing is such that you are much better off to recycle a used steel boat. So long as the paint and zincs have been maintained, steel boats last longer than their owners. Recycling is the way to go with steel. This is why I recommend to people that are looking to build, at least in North America, build in aluminum. Aluminum boats hold their value like no other, so you have the best chance of building a boat that is worth the time and money you put into it. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > The cost of goods on High Street, who gives a rats ass? That just about sums you up, Greg. > The world is what it is. The world is what people make it. Some people try to change certain aspects of the world, for what they believe is the better - like offering alternatives not only to boat construction itself, but the manner in which a boat is fitted-out and the style of cruising which can be adopted within a minimal budget. Other people only see revenue streams and don't care about the underlying principles and adopt only a self-centred approach. Carry on with your sharp financial methods if you must Greg, but please spare us the details. This forum is for boat-building, not for promoting methods of playing credit-card and other financial games. Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14958|14838|2007-10-18 15:23:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic panels, before installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of the hull will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be removed by the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be installed between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, but should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well painted in advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years or so. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14959|14838|2007-10-18 18:32:02|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save money short term. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic panels, before > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of the hull > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be removed by > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be installed > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, but > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well painted in > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years or so. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14960|14838|2007-10-18 20:01:06|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Had the commercial merchant marine grad metallurgy specialist out today to survey the hull with his electronic equipt. and assortment of "hammers"...guy really knew what he was doing. He spent 4 hours poking prodding, crawling around and running ultrasounds all over the boat. Result was entirely favorable, with some spots noted for me to grind down to bare and touch up. I asked him about his rec for treating the inside of the hull. He asked where I was going to sail, north or south, told him both :) so His rec ommendation was to pull all fibreglass and panel foam padding out and toss it. clean and sand down the existing Devoe coatings for good tooth, then put on at least 2, pref 3 coats of devoe with either glass beads or similar then foam to two inches. He said that should be end of story for the sweating, condensation etc. As Brent has said, if go north it will rain from any exposed metal, but the combination of paint and foam should knock it completely down. time consuming, but that's the way I'm going. I only want to do this once. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > money short term. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > panels, before > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > the hull > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > removed by > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > installed > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > but > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > painted in > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > or so. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 14961|14838|2007-10-18 20:02:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was whether there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, lots of them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still need to finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save money short term. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic panels, before > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of the hull > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be removed by > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be installed > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, but > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well painted in > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years or so. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14962|14838|2007-10-18 21:24:57|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal spray foam had been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats compliant but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the time you sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will have a lot more $ in it than it cost to build. In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant find anyone local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet option, cost less than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for the paint. Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to try this and see if it realy does work. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > money short term. > > Jon | 14963|14838|2007-10-18 21:36:50|polaris041|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Can you enlighten me as to what "the rust bullet option" is please? later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal spray foam had > been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats compliant > but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the time you > sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will have a lot > more $ in it than it cost to build. > In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant find anyone > local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet option, cost less > than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for the paint. > Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to try this and > see if it realy does work. > Tom | 14964|14838|2007-10-18 21:48:22|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints over rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a very tuff finish. http://www.rustbullet.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Can you enlighten me as to what "the rust bullet option" is please? > > later pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal spray > foam had >> been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats > compliant >> but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the > time you >> sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will > have a lot >> more $ in it than it cost to build. >> In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant find > anyone >> local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet option, > cost less >> than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for > the paint. >> Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to try > this and >> see if it realy does work. >> Tom > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14965|14838|2007-10-18 22:12:51|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|You forgot the part where if there is mill scail or slag it will pop and then rust. Other then that it is great. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints over > rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a very tuff > finish. > http://www.rustbullet.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Can you enlighten me as to what "the rust bullet option" is please? > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> > >> Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal spray > > foam had > >> been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats > > compliant > >> but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the > > time you > >> sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will > > have a lot > >> more $ in it than it cost to build. > >> In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant find > > anyone > >> local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet option, > > cost less > >> than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for > > the paint. > >> Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to try > > this and > >> see if it realy does work. > >> Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14966|14838|2007-10-18 22:23:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:13:35AM -0700, ge@... wrote: > Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you did > it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing the > world. So you've claimed, Greg. Repeatedly. Endlessly. Given that you have explicitly stated to me that your goal here is to "drive" people to your site so you can shill your services - I still have that email - your claim to sainthood sounds just a bit hollow. Even more to the point: if someone has a message that they want to spread, they will not stay and endlessly hammer on that message where it's laughed at and ignored. You do, which means that your _claimed_ goal differs greatly from your real one. So... tuck yourself in. Your ulterior motive is showing. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14967|14838|2007-10-18 22:38:23|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Very true, I should have mentioned that. I sure wouldnt use it on new steel with mill scale Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > You forgot the part where if there is mill scail or slag it will pop > and then rust. Other then that it is great. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints > over >> rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a > very tuff >> finish. >> http://www.rustbullet.com/ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "polaris041" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:36 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> > Can you enlighten me as to what "the rust bullet option" is > please? >> > >> > later pol >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal > spray >> > foam had >> >> been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats >> > compliant >> >> but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the >> > time you >> >> sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will >> > have a lot >> >> more $ in it than it cost to build. >> >> In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant > find >> > anyone >> >> local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet > option, >> > cost less >> >> than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for >> > the paint. >> >> Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to > try >> > this and >> >> see if it realy does work. >> >> Tom >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 14968|14838|2007-10-18 22:43:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Would you like some cheese with your whine? _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:13:35AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you did > it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing the > world. So you've claimed, Greg. Repeatedly. Endlessly. Given that you have explicitly stated to me that your goal here is to "drive" people to your site so you can shill your services - I still have that email - your claim to sainthood sounds just a bit hollow. Even more to the point: if someone has a message that they want to spread, they will not stay and endlessly hammer on that message where it's laughed at and ignored. You do, which means that your _claimed_ goal differs greatly from your real one. So... tuck yourself in. Your ulterior motive is showing. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14969|14838|2007-10-18 22:54:40|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Not into country music but this is starting to sound like the song "My Space". Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Would you like some cheese with your whine? > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:24 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:13:35AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell us how you > did > > it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how I'm changing > the > > world. > > So you've claimed, Greg. Repeatedly. Endlessly. > > Given that you have explicitly stated to me that your goal here is to > "drive" people to your site so you can shill your services - I still > have that email - your claim to sainthood sounds just a bit hollow. > > Even more to the point: if someone has a message that they want to > spread, they will not stay and endlessly hammer on that message where > it's laughed at and ignored. You do, which means that your _claimed_ > goal differs greatly from your real one. > > So... tuck yourself in. Your ulterior motive is showing. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14970|14838|2007-10-18 23:09:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 07:42:53PM -0700, ge@... wrote: > Would you like some cheese with your whine? [Yawn] You're boring and stale, Greg. Since you can't come up with anything original for this forum, I just _knew_ that you wouldn't be able to come up with an original (or even interesting) insult. Go and play now. We'll call you when it's time for your next parvo shot and a new flea collar. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14971|14838|2007-10-19 01:32:38|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. seer besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it to my children. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was whether > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, lots of > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still need to > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > money short term. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > panels, before > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > the hull > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > removed by > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > installed > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > but > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > painted in > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > or so. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14972|14838|2007-10-19 01:37:29|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I asked about this. My metallurgy guy said its easy to not get a good bond with the paint which subsequently 'works' and eventually creates an air gap into which your rust now eats merrily away, hidden under the apparently *good* surface... preparation and application is everything here. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints over > rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a very tuff > finish. > http://www.rustbullet.com/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Can you enlighten me as to what "the rust bullet option" is please? > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> > >> Not allways, here in California I was told that the orignal spray > > foam had > >> been outlawed a few years ago, now they have a new version thats > > compliant > >> but more money and not as good. One way to look at it is by the > > time you > >> sandblast , paint, and spray foam the interior on the 26 you will > > have a lot > >> more $ in it than it cost to build. > >> In my case I flat dont want to sandblast the inside and cant find > > anyone > >> local that would do it eather, so Im going the rust bullet option, > > cost less > >> than the materials to sandblast, then the insulating addative for > > the paint. > >> Should work fine for a trailer sailer. besides someone needs to try > > this and > >> see if it realy does work. > >> Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 14973|14940|2007-10-19 02:35:40|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: good time to take a look around.|I would think people losing their houses in the mortgage crunch would be driven to move aboard, hence driving up the price of boats, hehehe Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:48 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: good time to take a look around. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips > wrote: > > > > Well, if Seer is going to bring up this subject on a > > boatbuilding forum, I will add my $0.02 worth as well. > > > > I heartily agree with Seer about cheap steel boats, > >... > > >  That difference will > > be getting even better now with the condition of the > > US peso and their home mortgage crunch. > > > >  "US peso" LOL, we americans can now rightfully consider > ourselvestruly 'zinged' with that one :) > > seer > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14974|14838|2007-10-19 05:53:20|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|What's all this carping and crapping while I'm away?? I can't go away for two days without the group turning into a mudslinging competition! Can it and get back to the boats! If it doesn't have anything to do with boats, hit "delete" not send or enter, then go out back and smoke something or meditate to calm your nerves and find your inner peace I'm gonna have to moderate the posts guys. Origamiboats not Origaminsults Alex (cheesed) ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... Date: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Would you like some cheese with your whine? >   >   _____  > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ben Okopnik > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:24 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current > thinking? > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:13:35AM -0700, ge@easysoftwareinc. > com wrote: > > Get a boat, go cruising for years, come back with money, tell > us how you > did > > it. I'm telling people, for free, how I did it. This is how > I'm changing > the > > world. > > So you've claimed, Greg. Repeatedly. Endlessly. > > Given that you have explicitly stated to me that your goal here > is to > "drive" people to your site so you can shill your services - I still > have that email - your claim to sainthood sounds just a bit hollow. > > Even more to the point: if someone has a message that they want to > spread, they will not stay and endlessly hammer on that message where > it's laughed at and ignored. You do, which means that your _claimed_ > goal differs greatly from your real one. > > So... tuck yourself in. Your ulterior motive is showing. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > >   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14975|14838|2007-10-19 07:34:28|Gerd|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Rust Bullet: I made a test, some time spring last year, and painted several exposed patches of my rusty hull, without ANY preparation. To my great embassement, I have still not finished the steelworks, and will therefore have still another winter to observe my rustbullet test- areas ;-) The most eposed place was the bridgedeck, where I all the time walk up and down, drag cables and steel profiles through and so on. What I find so far is: - it is very very tough, and resists abrasion better than anything I have ever seen. Even the sharp edges on the ladder that I stuck together from t-bar are still as they were the first day. - on the bridge deck, there is a lot of rust that settled on top of it, including hot grinding dust that got burnt into the paint, because I had my worktable in the cockpit and oxy cut and grind there all the time right on top of the test-area. in these spots, there is of course surface rust, but even where the dust burnt through, there is no creeping rust or flaking or anýthing. just wipe off the dust and rust and underneath the paint is intact. - In some places I painted over flaky rust on purpose, and sure enough, it flakes off there after only a few weeks, so that is to be avoided at all cost. - I also painted over millscale. can't see a difference yet after a good year.. but that may come later. wherever there is millscale I would grind to blank metal. - welds, more or less clean. When cleaning out a weld, especially in corners, you often can't remove all shlag. I painted over some rather crappy and unclean welds, and there is no problem visible yet. - cracks, corners... it fills gaps quite nicely, but produces small bubbles when hardening. The documentation points that out, if the layer is to thick, there are gases trapped in the paint. If you have gaps, corners etc, I think the first coat should be very thin there. the paint creeps nicely and feel very slick, so it should go in. the second coat could then fill a bit more, even if it bubbles slightly. - there are no haircracks surface changes or anthing yet that would suggest that it's ageing or that it reacts to temperature differences - it's baking hot in the summer und ice covered in the winter and it looks as shining and oily smooth as the day I put it on. I think, the stuff is amazing, and if sandblasting is not possible, you could probably do the inside by - grinding any millscale that is left - handbrushing everything that is loose rost - wirebrush all corner and edges - use pressure washer with sand-adapter to go through the corners wnd welds that you could not clean with a wire brush - clean out and flush thouroughly and dustfree with pressure washer - apply rustbullet 2 coats and then some thick stuff over it, tar epoxy or similar. I think this is a practical and realistic second best solution - but sand blasting and epoxy zink is still what I believe is best. As I said, I BELIEVE sandblasting is best... but from what I have seen so far, it just might be that if anybody had the courage to do it, RustBullet COULD replace sandblasting alltogether, even outside... what is lacking here is more practical experience. Tom: lead on!! ;-) I'll have to take the same decision soon, and still do not know what to do... ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints > over > > rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a > very tuff > > finish. > > http://www.rustbullet.com/ | 14976|14940|2007-10-19 07:44:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: good time to take a look around.|On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 11:40:16PM -0700, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > I would think people losing their houses in the mortgage crunch would > be driven to move aboard, hence driving up the price of boats, hehehe There are too many sheep and not enough sheepdogs for that to happen. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14977|14977|2007-10-19 09:05:07|mickeyolaf|Blue Water Sitting|The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment every four years with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac Head was number 1. Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y valves and the head becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending on how u set up your plumbing.| 14978|14838|2007-10-19 09:31:23|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Thanks for the report Gerd, was hoping you would. I allready have the rust bullet and going that rout. Youre plan of attack to using it seems like it would work. There is very little mill scale left on mine, mostly surface rust. I am planning on eather steam clean or TSP and pressure wash the interior before the prep for paint. pressure blasting the corners that cant be cleaned to good is a real good idea. I bought the automotive mix of rust bullet so I can shoot it with HVLP gun and they recomend 3 coats , we shall see how it goes. The only thing about it is you have to top coat it within 72 hours or it has to be sanded, that would be a lot of painting within a couple days doing the whole thing Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Rust Bullet: I made a test, some time spring last year, and painted several exposed patches of my rusty hull, without ANY preparation. To my great embassement, I have still not finished the steelworks, and will therefore have still another winter to observe my rustbullet test- areas ;-) The most eposed place was the bridgedeck, where I all the time walk up and down, drag cables and steel profiles through and so on. What I find so far is: - it is very very tough, and resists abrasion better than anything I have ever seen. Even the sharp edges on the ladder that I stuck together from t-bar are still as they were the first day. - on the bridge deck, there is a lot of rust that settled on top of it, including hot grinding dust that got burnt into the paint, because I had my worktable in the cockpit and oxy cut and grind there all the time right on top of the test-area. in these spots, there is of course surface rust, but even where the dust burnt through, there is no creeping rust or flaking or anýthing. just wipe off the dust and rust and underneath the paint is intact. - In some places I painted over flaky rust on purpose, and sure enough, it flakes off there after only a few weeks, so that is to be avoided at all cost. - I also painted over millscale. can't see a difference yet after a good year.. but that may come later. wherever there is millscale I would grind to blank metal. - welds, more or less clean. When cleaning out a weld, especially in corners, you often can't remove all shlag. I painted over some rather crappy and unclean welds, and there is no problem visible yet. - cracks, corners... it fills gaps quite nicely, but produces small bubbles when hardening. The documentation points that out, if the layer is to thick, there are gases trapped in the paint. If you have gaps, corners etc, I think the first coat should be very thin there. the paint creeps nicely and feel very slick, so it should go in. the second coat could then fill a bit more, even if it bubbles slightly. - there are no haircracks surface changes or anthing yet that would suggest that it's ageing or that it reacts to temperature differences - it's baking hot in the summer und ice covered in the winter and it looks as shining and oily smooth as the day I put it on. I think, the stuff is amazing, and if sandblasting is not possible, you could probably do the inside by - grinding any millscale that is left - handbrushing everything that is loose rost - wirebrush all corner and edges - use pressure washer with sand-adapter to go through the corners wnd welds that you could not clean with a wire brush - clean out and flush thouroughly and dustfree with pressure washer - apply rustbullet 2 coats and then some thick stuff over it, tar epoxy or similar. I think this is a practical and realistic second best solution - but sand blasting and epoxy zink is still what I believe is best. As I said, I BELIEVE sandblasting is best... but from what I have seen so far, it just might be that if anybody had the courage to do it, RustBullet COULD replace sandblasting alltogether, even outside... what is lacking here is more practical experience. Tom: lead on!! ;-) I'll have to take the same decision soon, and still do not know what to do... ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints > over > > rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a > very tuff > > finish. > > http://www.rustbullet.com/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 14979|14838|2007-10-19 09:50:50|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|As the hull condenses water, it is functioning as a de-humidifier, removing the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and carrying this into the bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when living aboard. Foamed boats are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is a choice for each builder and the intended service of the boat. Some boats are foamed over wheel abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. Each builder will have their reasons. If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a conservative approach. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating problems where none exist. Save the money for areas directly related to sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. Perfection can never be achieved in any boat, no matter how much money you throw at it. Every boat needs regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of days and go around the boat, inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch up any problem areas, the hull will last a lot longer than its owner. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. seer besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it to my children. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was whether > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, lots of > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still need to > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > money short term. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > panels, before > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > the hull > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > removed by > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > installed > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > but > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > painted in > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > or so. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14980|14977|2007-10-19 09:55:32|Carl Anderson|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be rebuilt on an annual basis) My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com mickeyolaf wrote: > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > every four years > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > Head was number 1. > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > valves and the head > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > on how u set > up your plumbing. > > | 14981|14977|2007-10-19 10:20:21|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Any good quality rubber hose should work. I use fabric reinforced, not wire wrapped. Plastic hoses harden and shrink in the tropics and would be my second choice when attaching to through hulls. I've never had to clean the inlet hose, but you can get a funky smell if the head is left unused. Outlet, they slowly build scale in the tropics. Flush the head with muriatic once/twice a year, if the valves are acid safe. If you have the hose off for other work, beat it with a mallet from the outside, the scale will fall off and can be dumped out. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:56 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Sitting I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be rebuilt on an annual basis) My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com mickeyolaf wrote: > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > every four years > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > Head was number 1. > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > valves and the head > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > on how u set > up your plumbing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14982|14838|2007-10-19 10:35:33|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Thanks for the input, tho in my limited experience, 50 something years messing around in a whole range of boats and a little over ten years running from seattle north to Juneau, or a bit north of there, and back - oh, and from LA to the Sea of Cortez and back a few times..the steel hulled boat seems to me to present a couple of new challenges, especially my new boat with the aluminum deckhouse. Now, I could care about dehumidifying, in fact I WANT to keep the moisture in the air as its easier to control with various heating/cooling venting strategies. What I'm trying to solve/prevent are several other problems: 1. water collecting against steel, and just sitting there, 2. water collecting against aluminum,ditto 3. insulating against condensation (i'd prefer to keep the water in the air:), not on the hull behind the joinery where I can't see it..or on the 'vegetation' itself as brent would say, 4. insulating against heat cold from the overhead aluminum, 5. insulating from the cold/heat from the deck, and 6. insulating from the cold/heat from the topsides, and from the interior of the hull below waterline..(water is cold up north, very cold..). In short I want a dry boat, I'll deal with the humidity and ventilation issues with other systems. Dry steel equals safe steel.. Adam's advice after inspecting pretty much the entire hull, and showing me potential water traps due to the stringers, floors and ribs,seems to me to be a rational plan. I can see in the existing overhead that the fibreglass has in some places (fortunately limited) collected condensation which has stained the overhead(which I was going to replace anyway :) The smell of wet fibreglass mildewing and playing host to a number of different organisms in the hot and humid Sea of Cortez, is not high on my list of desired sensory inputs...in fact it stinks..:) ditto with dampness collecting on the teak, or anywhere else. Here I'm dealing with some very strongly and intricately installed joinery, which I'd be very loathe to remove for inspection on a regular basis..I'd rather do this once and look at it again ten or so years from now. The rust bullet being discussed in the other thread might solve a couple of potential exterior cap rail issues. I'll be looking into that too. Now IF you could limit the amount of humid air in the boat then perhaps a condensation medium wicking water into the hull might interest me, however, for some reason, in the tropics there seems to be an inordinately high amount of available humid air :) hehehehe, I'm not looking to turn the interior of my boat into a 'water sculpture' :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > As the hull condenses water, it is functioning as a de-humidifier, removing > the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and carrying this into the > bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when living aboard. Foamed boats > are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is a choice for each builder > and the intended service of the boat. Some boats are foamed over wheel > abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. Each builder will have > their reasons. > > If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a conservative approach. If it > ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating problems where none exist. > Save the money for areas directly related to > sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. Perfection can never be achieved in > any boat, no matter how much money you throw at it. Every boat needs > regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of days and go around the boat, > inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch up any problem areas, the > hull will last a lot longer than its owner. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull > can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into > the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what > amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances > where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for > themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done > 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and > effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that > you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to > the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, > far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the > value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the > boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up > first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the > discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not > unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical > corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of > the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. > > seer > besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it > to my children. > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was > whether > > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, > lots of > > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still > need to > > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > > money short term. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > > panels, before > > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > > the hull > > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > > removed by > > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > > installed > > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > > but > > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > > painted in > > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > > or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14983|14838|2007-10-19 10:53:22|Julian|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Greeting all My name is Julian and I am new to this group. Very interesting group with a very cool concept. Here is a thought, why use foam at all, comertial ships use a layer of wood between the hull and the cargo. this has some benifit, 1) condesation only happens directly on the hull, runs down onto the deck and is collected in a bilge. 2) The hull is open for inspection, taking a panel off from time to time will give you a good view of the state of the hull, having some foam sprayed on the hull could hide danger areas, 3) Fire, some of these foams are quite flamable but many give off very toxic gases, dont want that in a confined area. Good timely ventilation also does not harm in keeping the boat dry Julian No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 19/10/07 05:10 AM| 14984|14977|2007-10-19 10:55:25|seeratlas|Re: Blue Water Sitting|you want thick hose to limit the smell and religiously adopt a vinegar application program to limit the calcification which screws up pretty much everything in the system. here's some frank comments by a cruiser who installed the lavac and his experiences with it. (as well as some other common boat systems. Its dated, but still applicable.) http://www.svfelicity.com/boat/systems.htm seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > | 14985|14940|2007-10-19 11:00:34|Michael Casling|Re: good time to take a look around.|The shortage of credit in the US applies to folks with zero assetts and ability to pay. 1/3 of US folks are debt free, while 87% of mortgages are prime or govt. backed. This is from my notes of a talk by a CFP from RBC about 3 weeks ago. So I would assume that the folks losing their houses do not have boats, and can not afford a boat. I have also noted that used plastic boats are cheaper in the US. A search for a Rival 34 would show this. I will be comming to the Island sometime over the winter. Will stop by if you are around and look at the boat / boats. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > I would think people losing their houses in the mortgage crunch would be driven to move aboard, hence driving up the price of boats, hehehe > > Alex | 14986|14838|2007-10-19 12:46:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|My starting point on the interior of a steel boat would be the quality of the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint was in reasonably good shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was working. If the insulation is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, I'd pull them out, slap some paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a mildew inhibitor, put them back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in poor shape, then it is time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, unless everything is out and the steel blasted and painted, that would raise concerns in my mind about rust getting started under the foam, with no way to see it or fix it. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:36 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Thanks for the input, tho in my limited experience, 50 something years messing around in a whole range of boats and a little over ten years running from seattle north to Juneau, or a bit north of there, and back - oh, and from LA to the Sea of Cortez and back a few times..the steel hulled boat seems to me to present a couple of new challenges, especially my new boat with the aluminum deckhouse. Now, I could care about dehumidifying, in fact I WANT to keep the moisture in the air as its easier to control with various heating/cooling venting strategies. What I'm trying to solve/prevent are several other problems: 1. water collecting against steel, and just sitting there, 2. water collecting against aluminum,ditto 3. insulating against condensation (i'd prefer to keep the water in the air:), not on the hull behind the joinery where I can't see it..or on the 'vegetation' itself as brent would say, 4. insulating against heat cold from the overhead aluminum, 5. insulating from the cold/heat from the deck, and 6. insulating from the cold/heat from the topsides, and from the interior of the hull below waterline..(water is cold up north, very cold..). In short I want a dry boat, I'll deal with the humidity and ventilation issues with other systems. Dry steel equals safe steel.. Adam's advice after inspecting pretty much the entire hull, and showing me potential water traps due to the stringers, floors and ribs,seems to me to be a rational plan. I can see in the existing overhead that the fibreglass has in some places (fortunately limited) collected condensation which has stained the overhead(which I was going to replace anyway :) The smell of wet fibreglass mildewing and playing host to a number of different organisms in the hot and humid Sea of Cortez, is not high on my list of desired sensory inputs...in fact it stinks..:) ditto with dampness collecting on the teak, or anywhere else. Here I'm dealing with some very strongly and intricately installed joinery, which I'd be very loathe to remove for inspection on a regular basis..I'd rather do this once and look at it again ten or so years from now. The rust bullet being discussed in the other thread might solve a couple of potential exterior cap rail issues. I'll be looking into that too. Now IF you could limit the amount of humid air in the boat then perhaps a condensation medium wicking water into the hull might interest me, however, for some reason, in the tropics there seems to be an inordinately high amount of available humid air :) hehehehe, I'm not looking to turn the interior of my boat into a 'water sculpture' :) seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > As the hull condenses water, it is functioning as a de-humidifier, removing > the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and carrying this into the > bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when living aboard. Foamed boats > are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is a choice for each builder > and the intended service of the boat. Some boats are foamed over wheel > abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. Each builder will have > their reasons. > > If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a conservative approach. If it > ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating problems where none exist. > Save the money for areas directly related to > sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. Perfection can never be achieved in > any boat, no matter how much money you throw at it. Every boat needs > regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of days and go around the boat, > inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch up any problem areas, the > hull will last a lot longer than its owner. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull > can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into > the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what > amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances > where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for > themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done > 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and > effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that > you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to > the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, > far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the > value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the > boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up > first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the > discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not > unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical > corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of > the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. > > seer > besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it > to my children. > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was > whether > > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, > lots of > > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still > need to > > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > > money short term. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > > panels, before > > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > > the hull > > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > > removed by > > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > > installed > > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > > but > > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > > painted in > > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > > or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 14987|14838|2007-10-19 14:30:17|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Lets look at how it works. Rust is caused by water being in contact with steel Condensation is from moist air being in contact with a surface that is at a lower temp then the air. Paint can prevent water from being in contact with the steel and low R paint can prevent condensation in a small temp range. Fiberglass bat insolation has air flow causing condensation and holds water it comes in contact with. a plastic barior and fiberglass insolation agenst the hull would condense on the fiberglass insolation side. Spray foam prevents air circulation and condensation. So you decide what boat last longer and is worth more when survayed for resale in any part of the world that it may end up. In the worse case where a steel boat gets holed the foam is easy to remove with a hot wire cutter to do welding or even a knife and putty knife. No air no water no rust the choice in value would look easy to me. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My starting point on the interior of a steel boat would be the quality of > the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint was in reasonably good > shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was working. If the insulation > is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, I'd pull them out, slap some > paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a mildew inhibitor, put them > back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in poor shape, then it is > time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, unless everything is out > and the steel blasted and painted, that would raise concerns in my mind > about rust getting started under the foam, with no way to see it or fix it. | 14988|14838|2007-10-19 15:26:45|Paul Wilson|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Thanks! These are the kind of postings I like. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 2:31:23 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Thanks for the report Gerd, was hoping you would. I allready have the rust bullet and going that rout. Youre plan of attack to using it seems like it would work. There is very little mill scale left on mine, mostly surface rust. I am planning on eather steam clean or TSP and pressure wash the interior before the prep for paint. pressure blasting the corners that cant be cleaned to good is a real good idea. I bought the automotive mix of rust bullet so I can shoot it with HVLP gun and they recomend 3 coats , we shall see how it goes. The only thing about it is you have to top coat it within 72 hours or it has to be sanded, that would be a lot of painting within a couple days doing the whole thing Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Rust Bullet: I made a test, some time spring last year, and painted several exposed patches of my rusty hull, without ANY preparation. To my great embassement, I have still not finished the steelworks, and will therefore have still another winter to observe my rustbullet test- areas ;-) The most eposed place was the bridgedeck, where I all the time walk up and down, drag cables and steel profiles through and so on. What I find so far is: - it is very very tough, and resists abrasion better than anything I have ever seen. Even the sharp edges on the ladder that I stuck together from t-bar are still as they were the first day. - on the bridge deck, there is a lot of rust that settled on top of it, including hot grinding dust that got burnt into the paint, because I had my worktable in the cockpit and oxy cut and grind there all the time right on top of the test-area. in these spots, there is of course surface rust, but even where the dust burnt through, there is no creeping rust or flaking or anýthing. just wipe off the dust and rust and underneath the paint is intact. - In some places I painted over flaky rust on purpose, and sure enough, it flakes off there after only a few weeks, so that is to be avoided at all cost. - I also painted over millscale. can't see a difference yet after a good year.. but that may come later. wherever there is millscale I would grind to blank metal. - welds, more or less clean. When cleaning out a weld, especially in corners, you often can't remove all shlag. I painted over some rather crappy and unclean welds, and there is no problem visible yet. - cracks, corners... it fills gaps quite nicely, but produces small bubbles when hardening. The documentation points that out, if the layer is to thick, there are gases trapped in the paint. If you have gaps, corners etc, I think the first coat should be very thin there. the paint creeps nicely and feel very slick, so it should go in. the second coat could then fill a bit more, even if it bubbles slightly. - there are no haircracks surface changes or anthing yet that would suggest that it's ageing or that it reacts to temperature differences - it's baking hot in the summer und ice covered in the winter and it looks as shining and oily smooth as the day I put it on. I think, the stuff is amazing, and if sandblasting is not possible, you could probably do the inside by - grinding any millscale that is left - handbrushing everything that is loose rost - wirebrush all corner and edges - use pressure washer with sand-adapter to go through the corners wnd welds that you could not clean with a wire brush - clean out and flush thouroughly and dustfree with pressure washer - apply rustbullet 2 coats and then some thick stuff over it, tar epoxy or similar. I think this is a practical and realistic second best solution - but sand blasting and epoxy zink is still what I believe is best. As I said, I BELIEVE sandblasting is best... but from what I have seen so far, it just might be that if anybody had the courage to do it, RustBullet COULD replace sandblasting alltogether, even outside... what is lacking here is more practical experience. Tom: lead on!! ;-) I'll have to take the same decision soon, and still do not know what to do... ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Yes the rust bullet is a special type of paint coating that paints > over > > rusty metal, very little prep. seals and stops rust and leaves a > very tuff > > finish. > > http://www.rustbull et.com/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 14989|14977|2007-10-19 15:32:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Blue Water Sitting|On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 01:05:05PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment every four years > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac Head was number 1. > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y valves and the head > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending on how u set > up your plumbing. That's what I have, and since I live aboard, I use it far more often than the average sailor. At this rate, I end up replacing a seal (two, actually - it's a kit) once every 3-5 years, and I always keep a spare set on hand. Takes about 30 seconds to replace them, by the way. I was lucky enough to encounter the Lavac early on in my boating career; when it comes to a flush-type head, I wouldn't have anything else on board. The only problem I've ever found with them is that their manual pump is not quite as robust as I'd like, but a Whale pump replaces it just fine, and lasts a long, long time. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14990|14977|2007-10-19 15:45:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Blue Water Sitting|On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:55:30AM -0600, Carl Anderson wrote: > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). Top-grade sanitation hose is the only way to go. Trust me, this is _not_ the place to save money - going with the cheap stuff just once will convince you (or at least your nose) forever. I've found that flushing the hose out with vinegar once every three months or so [1] extends the life of the hose to 5-7 years, and makes everything work smoothly. It also keeps the pump from jamming - that calcium buildup on the valves can be really annoying. [1] Pour in a half a gallon while pumping slowly, let it sit for an hour or two, whack the hose with a hammer a dozen times to break the built-up lime, pump it dry, then pump up a couple of ounces of mineral oil. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 14991|14838|2007-10-19 17:09:27|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Right on Greg. I've never had problems with condensation settling on stringers that were burried in foam. Just keep the bilges free of foam, and make sure that there are at least 3 or 4 coats of epoxy tar over every bit of steel( clean steel) before foaming over it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My starting point on the interior of a steel boat would be the quality of > the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint was in reasonably good > shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was working. If the insulation > is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, I'd pull them out, slap some > paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a mildew inhibitor, put them > back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in poor shape, then it is > time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, unless everything is out > and the steel blasted and painted, that would raise concerns in my mind > about rust getting started under the foam, with no way to see it or fix it. > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:36 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Thanks for the input, tho in my limited experience, 50 something years > messing around in a whole range of boats and a little over ten years > running from seattle north to Juneau, or a bit north of there, and > back - oh, and from LA to the Sea of Cortez and back a few times..the > steel hulled boat seems to me to present a couple of new challenges, > especially my new boat with the aluminum deckhouse. > > Now, I could care about dehumidifying, in fact I WANT to keep the > moisture in the air as its easier to control with various > heating/cooling venting strategies. What I'm trying to solve/prevent > are several other problems: 1. water collecting against steel, and > just sitting there, 2. water collecting against aluminum,ditto 3. > insulating against condensation (i'd prefer to keep the water in the > air:), not on the hull behind the joinery where I can't see it..or on > the 'vegetation' itself as brent would say, 4. insulating against heat > cold from the overhead aluminum, 5. insulating from the cold/heat from > the deck, and 6. insulating from the cold/heat from the topsides, and > from the interior of the hull below waterline..(water is cold up > north, very cold..). > > In short I want a dry boat, I'll deal with the humidity and > ventilation issues with other systems. Dry steel equals safe steel.. > > Adam's advice after inspecting pretty much the entire hull, and > showing me potential water traps due to the stringers, floors and > ribs,seems to me to be a rational plan. I can see in the existing > overhead that the fibreglass has in some places (fortunately limited) > collected condensation which has stained the overhead(which I was > going to replace anyway :) The smell of wet fibreglass mildewing and > playing host to a number of different organisms in the hot and humid > Sea of Cortez, is not high on my list of desired sensory inputs...in > fact it stinks..:) ditto with dampness collecting on the teak, or > anywhere else. > > Here I'm dealing with some very strongly and intricately installed > joinery, which I'd be very loathe to remove for inspection on a > regular basis..I'd rather do this once and look at it again ten or so > years from now. > > The rust bullet being discussed in the other thread might solve a > couple of potential exterior cap rail issues. I'll be looking into > that too. > > Now IF you could limit the amount of humid air in the boat then > perhaps a condensation medium wicking water into the hull might > interest me, however, for some reason, in the tropics there seems to > be an inordinately high amount of available humid air :) hehehehe, I'm > not looking to turn the interior of my boat into a 'water sculpture' :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > ge@ wrote: > > > > As the hull condenses water, it is functioning as a de-humidifier, > removing > > the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and carrying this into the > > bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when living aboard. Foamed > boats > > are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is a choice for each > builder > > and the intended service of the boat. Some boats are foamed over wheel > > abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. Each builder will have > > their reasons. > > > > If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a conservative approach. If it > > ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating problems where none > exist. > > Save the money for areas directly related to > > sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. Perfection can never be > achieved in > > any boat, no matter how much money you throw at it. Every boat needs > > regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of days and go around > the boat, > > inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch up any problem > areas, the > > hull will last a lot longer than its owner. > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull > > can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into > > the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what > > amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances > > where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for > > themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done > > 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and > > effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that > > you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to > > the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, > > far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the > > value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the > > boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up > > first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the > > discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not > > unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical > > corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of > > the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. > > > > seer > > besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it > > to my children. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > > > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was > > whether > > > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, > > lots of > > > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still > > need to > > > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > > > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > > > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > > > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > > > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > > > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > > > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > > > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > > > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > > > money short term. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > > > panels, before > > > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > > > the hull > > > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > > > removed by > > > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > > > installed > > > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > > > but > > > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > > > painted in > > > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > > > or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14992|14977|2007-10-19 17:14:36|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, less than $20. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > | 14993|14940|2007-10-19 17:22:45|brentswain38|Re: good time to take a look around.|That's why Arc E Type is so cheap. It would fetch a lot more here ,ouside "fibreglass only" land. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > for those who have not started yet, there are some astonishing deals > on steel boats in the areas where fibreglass is king. If you have the > skills to build a boat, you surely have the skills to refurb or take > over someone else's project or an older boat that's just been sitting > out on the hard. no guarantees but it IS possible to find something > very similar to what you were looking for..trust me :) > > The financial turmoil in the housing market is kicking the snot out of > the boat market..I'd humbly suggest looking around, as the man said, > it couldn't hurt. > > seer > | 14994|14977|2007-10-19 19:17:24|mickeyolaf|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Mine came with a Henderson electric pump and a manual backup pump of which brand I can't remember. The head sits too low out of the box and u need a pedestal to bring it up to a comfortable reading level so your legs don't go to sleep. The whole setup was about $700 but it looks well made, much better than the Par/Jabsco heads that always seem to plug up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 01:05:05PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > That's what I have, and since I live aboard, I use it far more often > than the average sailor. At this rate, I end up replacing a seal (two, > actually - it's a kit) once every 3-5 years, and I always keep a spare > set on hand. Takes about 30 seconds to replace them, by the way. I was > lucky enough to encounter the Lavac early on in my boating career; when > it comes to a flush-type head, I wouldn't have anything else on board. > > The only problem I've ever found with them is that their manual pump is > not quite as robust as I'd like, but a Whale pump replaces it just fine, > and lasts a long, long time. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 14995|14977|2007-10-19 19:44:06|polaris041|Re: Blue Water Sitting|The real secret to the lavac was the henderson Mk5 pump which was/is supplied with it. These pumps on their outlet side had a tubular rubber valve that terminated in a 3 way slit. It didn't matter what was halfway through that valve when you started the next stroke as it would close around it and hence create suction. Not like other pumps which have flap valves and hence the outlet valve can get propped open, hence breaking the seal for the next suction stroke. Whale bought out Henderson out about 20 years or so ago and changed the configuration of these pumps; at which stage they lost a bit of flexibility as to the various aspects of mounting them. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Mine came with a Henderson electric pump and a manual backup pump of which brand I > can't remember. The head sits too low out of the box and u need a pedestal to bring it up > to a comfortable reading level so your legs don't go to sleep. > The whole setup was about $700 but it looks well made, much better than the Par/Jabsco > heads that always seem to plug up. | 14996|14977|2007-10-19 20:17:59|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I met a couple in tonga who had their brydon crap out in bora Bora( pardon the pun) They hooked up a henderson and some closed cell foam on the lid and cruised happily ever after. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > The real secret to the lavac was the henderson Mk5 pump which was/is > supplied with it. > These pumps on their outlet side had a tubular rubber valve that > terminated in a 3 way slit. It didn't matter what was halfway through > that valve when you started the next stroke as it would close around > it and hence create suction. > Not like other pumps which have flap valves and hence the outlet > valve can get propped open, hence breaking the seal for the next > suction stroke. > Whale bought out Henderson out about 20 years or so ago and changed > the configuration of these pumps; at which stage they lost a bit of > flexibility as to the various aspects of mounting them. > > later pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Mine came with a Henderson electric pump and a manual backup pump > of which brand I > > can't remember. The head sits too low out of the box and u need a > pedestal to bring it up > > to a comfortable reading level so your legs don't go to sleep. > > The whole setup was about $700 but it looks well made, much better > than the Par/Jabsco > > heads that always seem to plug up. > | 14997|14977|2007-10-19 23:55:36|seeratlas|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Greg, what kind of boat do you have now? where is it and do you have some pictures? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > Any good quality rubber hose should work. I use fabric reinforced, not wire > wrapped. Plastic hoses harden and shrink in the tropics and would be my > second choice when attaching to through hulls. I've never had to clean the > inlet hose, but you can get a funky smell if the head is left unused. > Outlet, they slowly build scale in the tropics. Flush the head with > muriatic once/twice a year, if the valves are acid safe. If you have the > hose off for other work, beat it with a mallet from the outside, the scale > will fall off and can be dumped out. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Carl Anderson > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 6:56 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Blue Water Sitting > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14998|14838|2007-10-20 00:11:01|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I think you're right in assessing current status of the paint. On my recent acquisition, it appears that kanter did a very good job of painting inside and out and most of the interior paint is original and in amazing shape. There are several small areas, however, which tho not posing an immediate problem, suggest that some precautionary work take place. Soo, as I think I wrote, I'm looking at the base, where paint is good, I'll do what's necessary to ensure a good bond to the thermal paint, lay that on pretty thick then foam. I'm not suggesting just foaming away without ensureing a proper base. The panels in the headliner in the PH are stained from condensation accumulating and examination of the fibreglass etc. they used, shows that it was accumulating moisture.Might as well pull it down now and do it right, so I will. Behind the cabinetry, Kanter went a bit over the top with teak plywood sheets separated slightly from the hull then the joinery fixxed over that. This boat is no lightweight LOL. The very bottom of these sheets reflect accumulated moisture. I'm going to examine the hull behind them,and if all is well, I'll do what's necessary to ensure a good foaming. It's not a horrible job to disassemble parts of the interior in order to gain visual access, but its not something I'd like to do on a regular basis. As it is, its obvious that there has been condensation to varying degrees. Might as well stop it now, and gain the side benefits of temp and humidity control, sound proofing/muffling etc. As for "if what's being used now is working'...well in the research I've done so far, I havn't seen any glowing recommendations for anything OTHER than foam that has proven reliable. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > My starting point on the interior of a steel boat would be the quality of > the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint was in reasonably good > shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was working. If the insulation > is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, I'd pull them out, slap some > paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a mildew inhibitor, put them > back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in poor shape, then it is > time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, unless everything is out > and the steel blasted and painted, that would raise concerns in my mind > about rust getting started under the foam, with no way to see it or fix it. > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:36 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Thanks for the input, tho in my limited experience, 50 something years > messing around in a whole range of boats and a little over ten years > running from seattle north to Juneau, or a bit north of there, and > back - oh, and from LA to the Sea of Cortez and back a few times..the > steel hulled boat seems to me to present a couple of new challenges, > especially my new boat with the aluminum deckhouse. > > Now, I could care about dehumidifying, in fact I WANT to keep the > moisture in the air as its easier to control with various > heating/cooling venting strategies. What I'm trying to solve/prevent > are several other problems: 1. water collecting against steel, and > just sitting there, 2. water collecting against aluminum,ditto 3. > insulating against condensation (i'd prefer to keep the water in the > air:), not on the hull behind the joinery where I can't see it..or on > the 'vegetation' itself as brent would say, 4. insulating against heat > cold from the overhead aluminum, 5. insulating from the cold/heat from > the deck, and 6. insulating from the cold/heat from the topsides, and > from the interior of the hull below waterline..(water is cold up > north, very cold..). > > In short I want a dry boat, I'll deal with the humidity and > ventilation issues with other systems. Dry steel equals safe steel.. > > Adam's advice after inspecting pretty much the entire hull, and > showing me potential water traps due to the stringers, floors and > ribs,seems to me to be a rational plan. I can see in the existing > overhead that the fibreglass has in some places (fortunately limited) > collected condensation which has stained the overhead(which I was > going to replace anyway :) The smell of wet fibreglass mildewing and > playing host to a number of different organisms in the hot and humid > Sea of Cortez, is not high on my list of desired sensory inputs...in > fact it stinks..:) ditto with dampness collecting on the teak, or > anywhere else. > > Here I'm dealing with some very strongly and intricately installed > joinery, which I'd be very loathe to remove for inspection on a > regular basis..I'd rather do this once and look at it again ten or so > years from now. > > The rust bullet being discussed in the other thread might solve a > couple of potential exterior cap rail issues. I'll be looking into > that too. > > Now IF you could limit the amount of humid air in the boat then > perhaps a condensation medium wicking water into the hull might > interest me, however, for some reason, in the tropics there seems to > be an inordinately high amount of available humid air :) hehehehe, I'm > not looking to turn the interior of my boat into a 'water sculpture' :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > ge@ wrote: > > > > As the hull condenses water, it is functioning as a de-humidifier, > removing > > the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and carrying this into the > > bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when living aboard. Foamed > boats > > are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is a choice for each > builder > > and the intended service of the boat. Some boats are foamed over wheel > > abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. Each builder will have > > their reasons. > > > > If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a conservative approach. If it > > ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating problems where none > exist. > > Save the money for areas directly related to > > sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. Perfection can never be > achieved in > > any boat, no matter how much money you throw at it. Every boat needs > > regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of days and go around > the boat, > > inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch up any problem > areas, the > > hull will last a lot longer than its owner. > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > I don't know greg, anything that concentrates water against the hull > > can't be good, or for that matter distills water out of the air into > > the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed to building in what > > amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to forsee the circumstances > > where someone is going thru the trouble of building a boat for > > themselves and not go that little extra to ensure that its done > > 'right' so they don't have to do it again down the road. The time and > > effort involved in disassembling the interior every few years so that > > you can try and touch up the areas where corrosion has occurred due to > > the collection and concentration of water wicked from the atmosphere, > > far outweighs the essentially one time cost of foaming. Futher the > > value of the peace of mind gained thereby enabling one to relax on the > > boat as opposed to wondering when and where the corrosion will show up > > first under the joinery, seems to me at least, dispositive of the > > discussion. Cruising should be about travel and discovery, not > > unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned by cutting critical > > corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the long term integrity of > > the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about job 2. > > > > seer > > besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh I'd like to will it > > to my children. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. Whether it is the most cost > > > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The question asked was > > whether > > > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi and aussie boats, > > lots of > > > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever way you go, you still > > need to > > > finish the interior, and plastic panels work well for that. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective to paint good once > > > spray foam and build the interior just once. There would be no sweat > > > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold comeing through making the > > > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the reason they do it to > > > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it gets wet stays wet and > > > alowes air flow so there is condensation. R-Value no air flow and > > > condensation is why spray foam is best. Anything else will not give > > > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the hull or create more > > > costs down the road. It is your boat so newspaper will work to save > > > money short term. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the stringers with plastic > > > panels, before > > > > installing the furnishings. Moisture condensing on the inside of > > > the hull > > > > will be carried outboard and down into the bilge, where it can be > > > removed by > > > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household insulation can be > > > installed > > > > between the stringers. This alternative is better suited to alloy, > > > but > > > > should give reasonable service in steel if the interior is well > > > painted in > > > > advance, and the interior is removed for repainting every 10 years > > > or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 14999|14838|2007-10-20 00:12:24|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|sums up my thinking better than I did :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Lets look at how it works. Rust is caused by water being in contact > with steel Condensation is from moist air being in contact with a > surface that is at a lower temp then the air. Paint can prevent water > from being in contact with the steel and low R paint can prevent > condensation in a small temp range. Fiberglass bat insolation has air > flow causing condensation and holds water it comes in contact with. a > plastic barior and fiberglass insolation agenst the hull would > condense on the fiberglass insolation side. Spray foam prevents air > circulation and condensation. So you decide what boat last longer and > is worth more when survayed for resale in any part of the world that > it may end up. In the worse case where a steel boat gets holed the > foam is easy to remove with a hot wire cutter to do welding or even a > knife and putty knife. No air no water no rust the choice in value > would look easy to me. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > My starting point on the interior of a steel boat would be the > quality of > > the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint was in > reasonably good > > shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was working. If the > insulation > > is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, I'd pull them out, > slap some > > paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a mildew inhibitor, > put them > > back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in poor shape, then > it is > > time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, unless everything > is out > > and the steel blasted and painted, that would raise concerns in my > mind > > about rust getting started under the foam, with no way to see it or > fix it. > | 15000|15000|2007-10-20 01:13:04|Alex Christie|false alarm|Sorry, I thought the group was teetering again, only had minutes to look at a few emails in the internet cafe and thought it was starting again! Looks like everyone is on an even keel. I'll leave ya'll to it! Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|