15001|14977|2007-10-20 01:52:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) Pleasant crapping, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, less than $20. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15002|14977|2007-10-20 04:32:14|Alex Christie|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Now this is the kind of crap I like to see here ;) Alex PS my Jabsco head installed new on one liveaboard boat was fine for two years until use by landlubbers, grrr! ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) Pleasant crapping, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, less than $20. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1081 - Release Date: 19/10/2007 5:41 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15003|14838|2007-10-20 08:16:00|Wally Paine|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Ian Nicolson in his book on steel construction emphasises the need to slope stringers such that condensation runs off them, and to cut drainage holes in the very bottom of frames to prevent dams forming. I think it was written before there was much in the way of foam about. It might be of use to those who don't want to use foam for whatever reason. Wally Paine --- brentswain38 wrote: > Right on Greg. I've never had problems with > condensation settling on > stringers that were burried in foam. Just keep the > bilges free of > foam, and make sure that there are at least 3 or 4 > coats of epoxy tar > over every bit of steel( clean steel) before foaming > over it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > > > My starting point on the interior of a steel boat > would be the > quality of > > the paint on the inside of the hull. If the paint > was in reasonably > good > > shape, I'd judge that whatever was in place was > working. If the > insulation > > is FG panels with plastic over, and accessible, > I'd pull them out, > slap some > > paint on the hull, bleach the panels and add a > mildew inhibitor, put > them > > back in and go sailing. If the paint under was in > poor shape, then > it is > > time to try something else. Foaming a used boat, > unless everything > is out > > and the steel blasted and painted, that would > raise concerns in my mind > > about rust getting started under the foam, with no > way to see it or > fix it. > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:36 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam > current thinking? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the input, tho in my limited > experience, 50 something years > > messing around in a whole range of boats and a > little over ten years > > running from seattle north to Juneau, or a bit > north of there, and > > back - oh, and from LA to the Sea of Cortez and > back a few times..the > > steel hulled boat seems to me to present a couple > of new challenges, > > especially my new boat with the aluminum > deckhouse. > > > > Now, I could care about dehumidifying, in fact I > WANT to keep the > > moisture in the air as its easier to control with > various > > heating/cooling venting strategies. What I'm > trying to solve/prevent > > are several other problems: 1. water collecting > against steel, and > > just sitting there, 2. water collecting against > aluminum,ditto 3. > > insulating against condensation (i'd prefer to > keep the water in the > > air:), not on the hull behind the joinery where I > can't see it..or on > > the 'vegetation' itself as brent would say, 4. > insulating against heat > > cold from the overhead aluminum, 5. insulating > from the cold/heat from > > the deck, and 6. insulating from the cold/heat > from the topsides, and > > from the interior of the hull below > waterline..(water is cold up > > north, very cold..). > > > > In short I want a dry boat, I'll deal with the > humidity and > > ventilation issues with other systems. Dry steel > equals safe steel.. > > > > Adam's advice after inspecting pretty much the > entire hull, and > > showing me potential water traps due to the > stringers, floors and > > ribs,seems to me to be a rational plan. I can see > in the existing > > overhead that the fibreglass has in some places > (fortunately limited) > > collected condensation which has stained the > overhead(which I was > > going to replace anyway :) The smell of wet > fibreglass mildewing and > > playing host to a number of different organisms in > the hot and humid > > Sea of Cortez, is not high on my list of desired > sensory inputs...in > > fact it stinks..:) ditto with dampness collecting > on the teak, or > > anywhere else. > > > > Here I'm dealing with some very strongly and > intricately installed > > joinery, which I'd be very loathe to remove for > inspection on a > > regular basis..I'd rather do this once and look at > it again ten or so > > years from now. > > > > The rust bullet being discussed in the other > thread might solve a > > couple of potential exterior cap rail issues. I'll > be looking into > > that too. > > > > Now IF you could limit the amount of humid air in > the boat then > > perhaps a condensation medium wicking water into > the hull might > > interest me, however, for some reason, in the > tropics there seems to > > be an inordinately high amount of available humid > air :) hehehehe, I'm > > not looking to turn the interior of my boat into a > 'water sculpture' :) > > > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, > > ge@ wrote: > > > > > > As the hull condenses water, it is functioning > as a de-humidifier, > > removing > > > the moisture from respiration, cooking, etc, and > carrying this > into the > > > bilge. Boats can be plenty humid inside when > living aboard. Foamed > > boats > > > are no exception. The "best" way to do a boat is > a choice for each > > builder > > > and the intended service of the boat. Some boats > are foamed over wheel > > > abraded steel. Others are blasted and painted. > Each builder will have > > > their reasons. > > > > > > If you are recycling a boat, I recommend a > conservative approach. > If it > > > ain't broke, don't fix it, as you risk creating > problems where none > > exist. > > > Save the money for areas directly related to > > > sailing/cruising/propulsion/navigation. > Perfection can never be > > achieved in > > > any boat, no matter how much money you throw at > it. Every boat needs > > > regular maintenance. If you spend a couple of > days and go around > > the boat, > > > inside and out, once or twice a year, and touch > up any problem > > areas, the > > > hull will last a lot longer than its owner. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:33 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, > Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know greg, anything that concentrates > water against the hull > > > can't be good, or for that matter distills water > out of the air into > > > the boat. I like insulated and dry , as opposed > to building in what > > > amount to wicks or decanters. Hard for me to > forsee the circumstances > > > where someone is going thru the trouble of > building a boat for > > > themselves and not go that little extra to > ensure that its done > > > 'right' so they don't have to do it again down > the road. The time and > > > effort involved in disassembling the interior > every few years so that > > > you can try and touch up the areas where > corrosion has occurred due to > > > the collection and concentration of water wicked > from the atmosphere, > > > far outweighs the essentially one time cost of > foaming. Futher the > > > value of the peace of mind gained thereby > enabling one to relax on the > > > boat as opposed to wondering when and where the > corrosion will show up > > > first under the joinery, seems to me at least, > dispositive of the > > > discussion. Cruising should be about travel and > discovery, not > > > unnecessary maintenance and repairs occasioned > by cutting critical > > > corners. Seems to me, "job one" is ensuring the > long term integrity of > > > the hull. Without job one, who gives a dam about > job 2. > > > > > > seer > > > besides, :) I got the boat waaaaay cheap ) heheh > I'd like to will it > > > to my children. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Spray foam on steel is the most effective. > Whether it is the > most cost > > > > effective depends on the cost of the foam. The > question asked was > > > whether > > > > there were lower cost alternatives. Steel kiwi > and aussie boats, > > > lots of > > > > them have never heard of spray foam. Whatever > way you go, you still > > > need to > > > > finish the interior, and plastic panels work > well for that. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:32 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@ > > > yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, > Foam current thinking? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be easyer and more cost effective > to paint good once > > > > spray foam and build the interior just once. > There would be no > sweat > > > > rust water in the bilge and hot or cold > comeing through making the > > > > cabin easyer to heat and cool. That is the > reason they do it to > > > > comercal steel boats. House insolation when it > gets wet stays > wet and > > > > alowes air flow so there is condensation. > R-Value no air flow and > > > > condensation is why spray foam is best. > Anything else will not give > > > > as good a R-value or shorten the life of the > hull or create more > > > > costs down the road. It is your boat so > newspaper will work to save > > > > money short term. > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > > > > yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Line the inside of the hull above the > stringers with plastic > > > > panels, before > > > > > installing the furnishings. Moisture > condensing on the inside of > > > > the hull > > > > > will be carried outboard and down into the > bilge, where it can be > > > > removed by > > > > > the pumps. Optionally, low cost household > insulation can be > > > > installed > > > > > between the stringers. This alternative is > better suited to > alloy, > > > > but > > > > > should give reasonable service in steel if > the interior is well > > > > painted in > > > > > advance, and the interior is removed for > repainting every 10 > years > > > > or so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html| 15004|15004|2007-10-20 08:42:18|Wally Paine|Impressed Current Cathodic Protection or ICCP|ICCP has I believe been used for off shore rigs, railway lines and I believe Royal Naval vessels (with Pt anodes). Is there potentional for using it on a steel boat either at sea or during construction? Would it, for instance keep the hull clean between sand blasting and painting, if the latter could not be done immediatly? Would a 12v supply and anodes made of a few sheets of galvanised iron (buried or not) provide protection? Any comments? Wally Paine| 15005|15005|2007-10-20 09:14:39|Tom|Insulating paint addative|Hello All Recieved the ceramic addative yesterday, Looks like a big bag of flower, mixes 4 parts paint to 1 part addative. I had better mix up a small test batch with the epoxy Im using, it will take 30 to 40% reducer to get it thin enough to shoot threw HVLP gun. Not sure how the epoxy will react to that much reducer. Brent It was easyer to order online with them and they ship to you, anyway its on the way UPS Canadian standard shipping 2 gal kit. For me to ship the extra I would have had to bag this white powder in unmarked bag, costoms might think its coke or anthracks or somthing and I didnt want to deal with that. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15006|14977|2007-10-20 10:56:41|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Most marine toilets that I have met seem to be specifically designed for the owner to get their hands in "IT" as often as possible. Thus I spent rediculous amount on buying a lavac, based on the 7seas crusing assn survey & never had a problem with it. Wish I had known of Brent & his work then as it would have saved about #350 quid! The other things that really helped were the Aries wind vane, also expensive but exellent and also a device Brent has simplified & would have been a big saving had I known at the time. The last was the hard mounting of the 4.108 perkins with a drive shaft & 2 universals, so no mucking about mounting the engine perfectly in line with the prop shaft on a rediculous angle that seems to coencide with running the oil pump just at the very edge of where it can effectively provide oil to the top end of an engine.... All were hard won. Guess it once again proves the point that it's who, not necessarily what you know. Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 15007|14977|2007-10-20 11:28:01|Carl Anderson|Re: Blue Water Sitting|From my searches on the net the Whale version of the pump is identical to what is supplied with the Lavac. I know as I bought an extra one. The only difference is that the Whale pump has a USCG certification molded into the top of the pump and what was supplied with the Lavac does not. Both are called a Mark V. There is no loss of flexibility as to mounting but there are two versions, one is for thru bulkhead mounting (costs a little more) and the other is for surface mounting. If anyone is interested best price I found is at Downwind Marine in San Diego: http://www.downwindmarine.com/xcart/MK-V-Manual-Toilet-Waste-Pump-Bulkhead-Mount-p-105894.html Carl polaris041 wrote: > > > The real secret to the lavac was the henderson Mk5 pump which was/is > supplied with it. > These pumps on their outlet side had a tubular rubber valve that > terminated in a 3 way slit. It didn't matter what was halfway through > that valve when you started the next stroke as it would close around > it and hence create suction. > Not like other pumps which have flap valves and hence the outlet > valve can get propped open, hence breaking the seal for the next > suction stroke. > Whale bought out Henderson out about 20 years or so ago and changed > the configuration of these pumps; at which stage they lost a bit of > flexibility as to the various aspects of mounting them. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Mine came with a Henderson electric pump and a manual backup pump > of which brand I > > can't remember. The head sits too low out of the box and u need a > pedestal to bring it up > > to a comfortable reading level so your legs don't go to sleep. > > The whole setup was about $700 but it looks well made, much better > than the Par/Jabsco > > heads that always seem to plug up. > > | 15008|14977|2007-10-20 12:52:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I've used the Par for years. I don't bother with a rebuild kit. $150 for the Par new on sale, the repair kit costs almost as much. The top lip seal is made to be serviced, and is simple to do. Replace it with a 2 way lip seal, SS spring, when she starts to leak, for about $2 in Asia, and this fixes her for good. The head itself is has proven acid safe, so a bit of muriatic works wonders. I replace the entire head every 5 years or so. By then every head will need service and start to look like crap. Friends can bring one on the plane as they fly in as regular baggage. When it comes time to sell the boat, replace the old head with a new one first order of business. For the $$ a good investment. Looks good and no new owner is going to want to work on an old head, so this is one objection to buying you've removed. Haven't used the Lavac, but can see the advantages of a diaphragm pump over a piston pump, so long as the valves are big enough. I agree with using triangular values instead of a flap valves. Most diaphragm pumps are not designed to handle anything other than water, and will fail if not protected with a strainer, making them unsuitable for use in a head. Visitors aboard are common. If the head can't handle a huge wad of toilet paper, time to replace it. Asking visitors to place used toilet paper into a bag, to keep it out of the head, for sure is going to fail. One of biggest problem area for heads is the outlet. Typically at some point the outlet hose attaches to a pipe on the through hull or holding tank. This restricts the outlet and is a natural place for blockage to occur. Anything you can do to increase the size of the outlet pipe, to eliminate restriction, is good. While it is fairly simple to remove scale from the flexible rubber hose, not so in this pipe, further aggravating the problem. Through hulls especially, as barnacles will grow in the outlet, catching toilet paper, further reducing the diameter. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) Pleasant crapping, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 hotmail.com> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, less than $20. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > every four years > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > Head was number 1. > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two extra y > > valves and the head > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric depending > > on how u set > > up your plumbing. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15009|15004|2007-10-20 13:48:23|mauro gonzaga|Re: Impressed Current Cathodic Protection or ICCP|Induced current or sacrificial anodes have the scope of rreducing galvanic corrosion only. mauro Wally Paine wrote: ICCP has I believe been used for off shore rigs, railway lines and I believe Royal Naval vessels (with Pt anodes). Is there potentional for using it on a steel boat either at sea or during construction? Would it, for instance keep the hull clean between sand blasting and painting, if the latter could not be done immediatly? Would a 12v supply and anodes made of a few sheets of galvanised iron (buried or not) provide protection? Any comments? Wally Paine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15010|14977|2007-10-20 14:35:35|mickeyolaf|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I don't think $700 is out line for a good head where u won't have slime all over trying to fix or unplug it every year. I originally bought a Par from Chimo for $149 but sold it after researching the Lavac. I had a Jabsco Par on my previous boat and wasn't impressed. It always had a smell even conditioned. I was always after everybody on the boat not to plug the head. I also like the idea of the push button flushing u get with the Lavac and the thru bulkhead manual backup. I work for every dollar, am by no means wealthy but don't find $700 excessive for a complete good head. The Father of Origami would have us sitting on a life ring on a bucket found on the beach and wiping our arses with barnicle encrusted seaweed. I completely agree with Brent's origami no frills built it and go now philosophy but some items such as stainless steel, dacron instead of blue tarps, braid instead of manila , the daily paper ( especially a politicians picture) instead of seaweed etc, are worth the money. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > Pleasant crapping, > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > less than $20. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > every four years > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > Head was number 1. > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > extra y > > > valves and the head > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > depending > > > on how u set > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15011|14977|2007-10-20 14:57:59|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Don't misquote me so that you will have something to argue against, when you can't find anything that I really say to argue against. What I've suggested is a simple modification of a par, used sails in new condition for a fraction the cost of new ones , galvanized rigging for a far more reliable rig, stainless trim on all outside corners to minimise maintenance and not being so gullible as to beliieve that old used car salesman's line that you always get what you pay for ,and that there is no such thing as foolish spending of cruising funds. Too many people who really belong out cruising are suckered into believing the elitist bullshit that only the rich are allowed to go cruising. The killing of cruising dreams is the death of a thousand cuts , and $700 is a big cut. The modification of the par is no more likely to plug than a commercially made one. Shit doesn't get to see the pricetag and then decide if it is going to co- operate or not. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I don't think $700 is out line for a good head where u won't have slime all over trying to > fix or unplug it every year. I originally bought a Par from Chimo for $149 but sold it after > researching the Lavac. > I had a Jabsco Par on my previous boat and wasn't impressed. It always had a smell even > conditioned. I was always after everybody on the boat not to plug the head. I also like the > idea of the push button flushing u get with the Lavac and the thru bulkhead manual > backup. > I work for every dollar, am by no means wealthy but don't find $700 excessive for a > complete good head. > The Father of Origami would have us sitting on a life ring on a bucket found on the beach > and wiping our arses with barnicle encrusted seaweed. I completely agree with Brent's > origami no frills built it and go now philosophy but some items such as stainless steel, > dacron instead of blue tarps, braid instead of manila , the daily paper ( especially a > politicians picture) instead of seaweed etc, are worth the money. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads > couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My > friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was > $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on > board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild > kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par > continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it > was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance > on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, > unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > > > Pleasant crapping, > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > > less than $20. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > > every four years > > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > > Head was number 1. > > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > > extra y > > > > valves and the head > > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > > depending > > > > on how u set > > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15012|14977|2007-10-20 15:02:25|brentswain38|Re: Blue Water Sitting|A ew barnacles can plug the outlet solid. On the lavac type I finally put a standpipe on the outlet with an ss pipe union at the top, above the waterline , so I can remove the union and push a piece of pipe thru it while in the water and clear it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I've used the Par for years. I don't bother with a rebuild kit. $150 for > the Par new on sale, the repair kit costs almost as much. The top lip seal > is made to be serviced, and is simple to do. Replace it with a 2 way lip > seal, SS spring, when she starts to leak, for about $2 in Asia, and this > fixes her for good. The head itself is has proven acid safe, so a bit of > muriatic works wonders. I replace the entire head every 5 years or so. By > then every head will need service and start to look like crap. Friends can > bring one on the plane as they fly in as regular baggage. When it comes > time to sell the boat, replace the old head with a new one first order of > business. For the $$ a good investment. Looks good and no new owner is > going to want to work on an old head, so this is one objection to buying > you've removed. > > Haven't used the Lavac, but can see the advantages of a diaphragm pump over > a piston pump, so long as the valves are big enough. I agree with using > triangular values instead of a flap valves. Most diaphragm pumps are not > designed to handle anything other than water, and will fail if not protected > with a strainer, making them unsuitable for use in a head. Visitors aboard > are common. If the head can't handle a huge wad of toilet paper, time to > replace it. Asking visitors to place used toilet paper into a bag, to keep > it out of the head, for sure is going to fail. > > One of biggest problem area for heads is the outlet. Typically at some > point the outlet hose attaches to a pipe on the through hull or holding > tank. This restricts the outlet and is a natural place for blockage to > occur. Anything you can do to increase the size of the outlet pipe, to > eliminate restriction, is good. While it is fairly simple to remove scale > from the flexible rubber hose, not so in this pipe, further aggravating the > problem. Through hulls especially, as barnacles will grow in the outlet, > catching toilet paper, further reducing the diameter. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most > heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need > to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking > everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco > for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 > years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it > every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par > continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged > once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't > believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No > rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never > used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > Pleasant crapping, > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > hotmail.com> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > less than $20. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > every four years > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > Head was number 1. > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > extra y > > > valves and the head > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > depending > > > on how u set > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15013|14838|2007-10-20 15:05:48|brentswain38|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|In BC waters that arrangement would be colder than a bureaucrats conscience. It would also be far damper and on the overhead it would be raining constantly. I know guys who have tried that and the boat was a solid sheet of ice inside , dripping when they tried to heat the boat , and the ice wouold thaw only over the stove. Read David Lewis's book "Ice Bird". Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Julian" wrote: > > Greeting all > > My name is Julian and I am new to this group. > > Very interesting group with a very cool concept. > > Here is a thought, why use foam at all, comertial ships use a layer of wood > between the hull and the cargo. this has some benifit, 1) condesation only > happens directly on the hull, runs down onto the deck and is collected in a > bilge. 2) The hull is open for inspection, taking a panel off from time to > time will give you a good view of the state of the hull, having some foam > sprayed on the hull could hide danger areas, 3) Fire, some of these foams > are quite flamable but many give off very toxic gases, dont want that in a > confined area. > > Good timely ventilation also does not harm in keeping the boat dry > > Julian > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 19/10/07 > 05:10 AM > | 15014|14977|2007-10-20 15:09:28|Aaron Williams|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Brent What size pipe do you recomend for the thru hull? brentswain38 wrote: A ew barnacles can plug the outlet solid. On the lavac type I finally put a standpipe on the outlet with an ss pipe union at the top, above the waterline , so I can remove the union and push a piece of pipe thru it while in the water and clear it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > I've used the Par for years. I don't bother with a rebuild kit. $150 for > the Par new on sale, the repair kit costs almost as much. The top lip seal > is made to be serviced, and is simple to do. Replace it with a 2 way lip > seal, SS spring, when she starts to leak, for about $2 in Asia, and this > fixes her for good. The head itself is has proven acid safe, so a bit of > muriatic works wonders. I replace the entire head every 5 years or so. By > then every head will need service and start to look like crap. Friends can > bring one on the plane as they fly in as regular baggage. When it comes > time to sell the boat, replace the old head with a new one first order of > business. For the $$ a good investment. Looks good and no new owner is > going to want to work on an old head, so this is one objection to buying > you've removed. > > Haven't used the Lavac, but can see the advantages of a diaphragm pump over > a piston pump, so long as the valves are big enough. I agree with using > triangular values instead of a flap valves. Most diaphragm pumps are not > designed to handle anything other than water, and will fail if not protected > with a strainer, making them unsuitable for use in a head. Visitors aboard > are common. If the head can't handle a huge wad of toilet paper, time to > replace it. Asking visitors to place used toilet paper into a bag, to keep > it out of the head, for sure is going to fail. > > One of biggest problem area for heads is the outlet. Typically at some > point the outlet hose attaches to a pipe on the through hull or holding > tank. This restricts the outlet and is a natural place for blockage to > occur. Anything you can do to increase the size of the outlet pipe, to > eliminate restriction, is good. While it is fairly simple to remove scale > from the flexible rubber hose, not so in this pipe, further aggravating the > problem. Through hulls especially, as barnacles will grow in the outlet, > catching toilet paper, further reducing the diameter. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:53 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most > heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need > to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking > everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco > for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 > years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it > every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par > continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged > once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't > believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No > rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never > used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > Pleasant crapping, > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > hotmail.com> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > less than $20. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > every four years > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > Head was number 1. > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > extra y > > > valves and the head > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > depending > > > on how u set > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15015|15004|2007-10-20 15:14:13|brentswain38|Re: Impressed Current Cathodic Protection or ICCP|I believe it would only work on a boat in the water , below the waterline. Simply giving the hull a second, thorough ,coat of zinc as soon as the hull and decks have been pulled together is all the protection you'd need during building . Steel suppliers have been tending to skip on the primer lately, and go heavy on the thinners.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Induced current or sacrificial anodes have the scope of rreducing galvanic corrosion only. > mauro > > Wally Paine wrote: > ICCP has I believe been used for off shore rigs, railway lines > and I believe Royal Naval vessels (with Pt anodes). > > Is there potentional for using it on a steel boat either at sea or > during construction? > > Would it, for instance keep the hull clean between sand blasting and > painting, if the latter could not be done immediatly? > > Would a 12v supply and anodes made of a few sheets of galvanised iron > (buried or not) provide protection? Any comments? > > Wally Paine > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15016|14940|2007-10-20 15:44:21|TDPOPP@aol.com|good time to take a look around.|One alternative to Build it yourself, is Finishing someone else's project. The Portland Craigslist has a 53' Bruce Roberts Sailboat Hull for Sale. "Hull is 3/4 finished. Needs the bulkheads and deck installed." _http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/boa/448528748.html_ (http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/boa/448528748.html) Not quite Origami Boat building but more in the spirit than arguing over getting on debt with Credit cards... Tom Popp - KA0TP ** Amateur Radio Now allows talking on VHF FM around the world on IRLP ** PDX Node 3231 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15017|14826|2007-10-20 16:13:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Prop Spin|Hi Dave, Sorry for the slow response to this. I thought others would have jumped at it but they didn't so I decided to go on the internet and double check my facts. I can only speak about the smaller Hurth (ZF) gearboxes since that is the one I have. Other gearboxes may require the engine to be running or get proper lubrication. The Hurth doesn't, so it is the one that usually has the freewheeling discussion. I couldn't find anything which said specifically that freewheeling a prop was bad for the transmission. I assumed that there would be less wear and tear but for the Hurth it specifically says that leaving the prop to freewheel will not hurt the transmission. It says to either freewheel or leave in reverse. It says to never leave in forward....I am not sure why. To quote: "rotation of the propellor without load while the boat is sailing, being towed or at anchor will have no detrimental effects on the gearbox. Never leave gear in the forward position when under sail. Locking the prop shaft can be done by leaving gear in reverse position" I guess the big consideration then in the case of the Hurth would be the increased drag of freewheeling the prop. I don't think the stuffing box needing to keep turning for water cooling or lube is a consideration since if that was such a problem it would be a problem from all the time spent at anchor. I am not too sure about the gear teeth loading issue. I assume the teeth are meant to take it since the forces of throwing the gearbox in and out of gear would be much greater than keeping a prop from turning. Once the prop is stopped from turning, there is relatively little load since there is no angular momentum and the blades are stalled in the water stream. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 5:51:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Prop Spin Hi Guys; I'm wondering how one came to the conclusion that locking the shaft by throwing the transmission into reverse would be easier on the gear box. When something like that is done you have a few teeth on the gear box acting as the brake. Mind you the amount of boat experience that I have is minimal compared to the regulars here, but I do have a bit of mechanical experience and this strikes me as a bad practice. The other thing I'd be concerned about is the shaft seal. Seems like you would be better off, under way, keeping the shaft turning and the seal surfaces wet. Dave Paul Wilson wrote: > > I throw my Hurth gearbox into reverse and it never spins on my BS36. > There is less drag if it doesn't spin and I believe it is easier on > the gearbox. I can't see any need for a prop lock on a smaller prop. > My friends on their 45 footer needed one and it was a pain in the ass > since it was always slipping and/or flying apart. There is a great > deal of force required to stop a large prop that is already spinning > and up to speed. It was a manual lever with a brake pad clamping onto > a disc sandwiched into the coupling. They had it "custom" designed by > an "engineer". I crewed with one boat which had a shaft brake which > was a pipe wrench that would get thrown onto the shaft before it got > going too fast. It was pretty scary hearing and seeing the wrench > handle slam onto the ferro hull but it did many, many miles using that > method. I wouldn't recommend it :). > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: mickeyolaf > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 7:54:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Prop Spin > > How many of u let your prop freewheel? Or do u use a brake or lock the > tranny in reverse? > I was just reading about a guy who would brake his shaft from the > wheelhouse once > sailing. Does anybody have or has seen a design to run a cable > controlled brake from the > house to the shaft and what it might look like. > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you > all the tools to get online. > http://smallbusines s.yahoo.com/ webhosting > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15018|14977|2007-10-20 17:10:56|polaris041|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Hi Carl; From my experience, before Henderson were bought out they made a base, with 4 feet and 2 options of crank. (One straight and one with a 90* bend in it) The pump was always mounted with the diaphragm in the same plane as the bulkhead, what ever side of it, it was mounted. Whale altered the base to have a large flange at right angles to the diaphragm, (used to mount behind the bulkhead) with only one option of crank, (the straight one) which protruded through that flange. Now when surface mounted the diaphragm was parallel to the bulkhead, but when through the bulkhead it was at right angles to it. (This limited the options of flow direction behind the bulkhead). I did notice that the old style of pump continued to be displayed in Lavac adds,(including the white option) but they refused to sell that pump individually. So the only option in chandleries, in Australia at least, was the "new" flanged (black) Whale version. Consequently I used the old base and 90* crank as patterns and cast my own version of them in bronze. Once you grasp the benefits and ease of casting complex items over fabrication, you will never waste time searching for a fitting again: just design your own and cast it. (Oh I can hear them already). Later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > From my searches on the net the Whale version of the pump is identical > to what is supplied with the Lavac. I know as I bought an extra one. > The only difference is that the Whale pump has a USCG certification > molded into the top of the pump and what was supplied with the Lavac > does not. Both are called a Mark V. There is no loss of flexibility as > to mounting but there are two versions, one is for thru bulkhead > mounting (costs a little more) and the other is for surface mounting. > If anyone is interested best price I found is at Downwind Marine in San > Diego: > http://www.downwindmarine.com/xcart/MK-V-Manual-Toilet-Waste-Pump- Bulkhead-Mount-p-105894.html > > Carl | 15019|14977|2007-10-20 18:02:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I've had problems with the whale over the years when mounted vertically with the inlet/outlet horizontal, because it can't drain fully. When it is used infrequently the salt water left behind eventually forms a highly concentrated brine/salt which attacks the metal parts and fouls valves. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of polaris041 Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 2:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting Hi Carl; From my experience, before Henderson were bought out they made a base, with 4 feet and 2 options of crank. (One straight and one with a 90* bend in it) The pump was always mounted with the diaphragm in the same plane as the bulkhead, what ever side of it, it was mounted. Whale altered the base to have a large flange at right angles to the diaphragm, (used to mount behind the bulkhead) with only one option of crank, (the straight one) which protruded through that flange. Now when surface mounted the diaphragm was parallel to the bulkhead, but when through the bulkhead it was at right angles to it. (This limited the options of flow direction behind the bulkhead). I did notice that the old style of pump continued to be displayed in Lavac adds,(including the white option) but they refused to sell that pump individually. So the only option in chandleries, in Australia at least, was the "new" flanged (black) Whale version. Consequently I used the old base and 90* crank as patterns and cast my own version of them in bronze. Once you grasp the benefits and ease of casting complex items over fabrication, you will never waste time searching for a fitting again: just design your own and cast it. (Oh I can hear them already). Later pol --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > From my searches on the net the Whale version of the pump is identical > to what is supplied with the Lavac. I know as I bought an extra one. > The only difference is that the Whale pump has a USCG certification > molded into the top of the pump and what was supplied with the Lavac > does not. Both are called a Mark V. There is no loss of flexibility as > to mounting but there are two versions, one is for thru bulkhead > mounting (costs a little more) and the other is for surface mounting. > If anyone is interested best price I found is at Downwind Marine in San > Diego: > http://www.downwind marine.com/xcart/MK-V-Manual-Toilet-Waste-Pump- Bulkhead-Mount-p-105894.html > > Carl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15020|14940|2007-10-20 20:12:59|brentswain38|good time to take a look around.|Check out the discussion on skeg failures on metalboatsociety.com for skeg failures on Roberts designs. He said he designs skegs to fall off if they hit anything. In the bare steel stage this should be easy to rectify. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > One alternative to Build it yourself, is Finishing someone else's project. > > The Portland Craigslist has a 53' Bruce Roberts Sailboat Hull for Sale. > "Hull is 3/4 finished. Needs the bulkheads and deck installed." > > _http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/boa/448528748.html_ > (http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/boa/448528748.html) > > > Not quite Origami Boat building but more in the spirit than arguing over > getting on debt with Credit cards... > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > ** Amateur Radio Now allows talking on VHF FM around the world on IRLP > ** PDX Node 3231 > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15021|14977|2007-10-20 20:43:22|mickeyolaf|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Brent, I was kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. You know when you're 17 and think your Dad doesn't know anything and then u hit your 20's and realize you really don't know shit and he was right most of the time due to all of his experience. Brent, I know u know 100x more than I do about building good boats. There are just a few products that catch my eye and wallet that I don't mind being cut for as long as I pay wholesale. Most of my boat comes from swap meets etc. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't misquote me so that you will have something to argue against, > when you can't find anything that I really say to argue against. What > I've suggested is a simple modification of a par, used sails in new > condition for a fraction the cost of new ones , galvanized rigging > for a far more reliable rig, stainless trim on all outside corners to > minimise maintenance and not being so gullible as to beliieve that old > used car salesman's line that you always get what you pay for ,and > that there is no such thing as foolish spending of cruising funds. Too > many people who really belong out cruising are suckered into believing > the elitist bullshit that only the rich are allowed to go cruising. > The killing of cruising dreams is the death of a thousand cuts , and > $700 is a big cut. > The modification of the par is no more likely to plug than a > commercially made one. Shit doesn't get to see the pricetag and then > decide if it is going to co- operate or not. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > I don't think $700 is out line for a good head where u won't have > slime all over trying to > > fix or unplug it every year. I originally bought a Par from Chimo > for $149 but sold it after > > researching the Lavac. > > I had a Jabsco Par on my previous boat and wasn't impressed. It > always had a smell even > > conditioned. I was always after everybody on the boat not to plug > the head. I also like the > > idea of the push button flushing u get with the Lavac and the thru > bulkhead manual > > backup. > > I work for every dollar, am by no means wealthy but don't find $700 > excessive for a > > complete good head. > > The Father of Origami would have us sitting on a life ring on a > bucket found on the beach > > and wiping our arses with barnicle encrusted seaweed. I completely > agree with Brent's > > origami no frills built it and go now philosophy but some items such > as stainless steel, > > dacron instead of blue tarps, braid instead of manila , the daily > paper ( especially a > > politicians picture) instead of seaweed etc, are worth the money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't > see why most heads > > couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no > need to spend $700. My > > friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and > the rebuild kit was > > $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 > people living on > > board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going > although I throw a rebuild > > kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a > Lavac style. The Par > > continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has > only plugged once but it > > was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe > the only maintenance > > on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or > valves will last that long, > > unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original > wrapping.:) > > > > > > Pleasant crapping, > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > > > > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > > > less than $20. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer > term. > > > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the > "less > > > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as > opposed > > > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do > you have > > > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out > once a > > > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on > equipment > > > > > every four years > > > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the > Lavac > > > > > Head was number 1. > > > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > > > extra y > > > > > valves and the head > > > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > > > depending > > > > > on how u set > > > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15022|14977|2007-10-21 00:31:44|seeratlas|Re: Blue Water Sitting|I had a Groco in the Falcon, and it was a pain under the ass so to speak..lots of really foul maintenance. My father's powerboat had a lavac type and had far fewer problems. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > Pleasant crapping, > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > less than $20. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > every four years > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > Head was number 1. > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > extra y > > > valves and the head > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > depending > > > on how u set > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15023|14977|2007-10-21 04:33:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Pumping a standard toilet, you switch on the inlet, pump until the bowl is clear, turn off the inlet and pump until the outlet is clear to minimize the outlet siphoning back. A minimum of water is required to do this placing less load on the holding tank. Looking at the lavac, the problem that comes to mind is that with the lid down you can't see when the waste is cleared so you don't know when to stop pumping. Also, I've read it takes awhile before you can lift the lid, due to the vacuum, so people probably don't bother to wait to clear the outlet hose. I expect they just leave the lid down with water in the bowl, and trust that whatever siphons back is minimal. If the valves are good probably not much of a problem unless you are heeled in heavy weather, at which time everything in the bowl will automatically be emptied anyways. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting I had a Groco in the Falcon, and it was a pain under the ass so to speak..lots of really foul maintenance. My father's powerboat had a lavac type and had far fewer problems. seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Brent is right, the lavac is the simplest way to go and I don't see why most heads couldn't be converted to that style of pump system. There is no need to spend $700. My friends had a Groco, it never worked without leaking everywhere and the rebuild kit was $400. I have used the cheapest Par/Jabsco for about 15 years now (2 people living on board probably a total of 10 years on and off). It keeps going although I throw a rebuild kit into it every two years or so. It would be easy to convert to a Lavac style. The Par continues to get bad reviews but I have had no problems. It has only plugged once but it was a problem with scale in the hose, not the head. I don't believe the only maintenance on a Lavac was a seal every 10 to 20 years. No rubber seals or valves will last that long, unless they are perhaps never used and kept in their original wrapping.:) > > Pleasant crapping, > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:14:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Blue Water Sitting > > Biult my own lavac type as shown in my book. It was very inexpensive, > less than $20. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > I decided to use the Lavac in Moonflower for this very reason. > > Not an inexpensive solution but perhaps less money over a longer term. > > In my limited experience around marine heads it seems that the "less > > expensive" ones need a total replacement every 3 years or so as opposed > > to replacing pump & seat seals. (I've read that the pump should be > > rebuilt on an annual basis) > > > > My question to anyone actually using a marine head is what do you have > > for the plumbing hose? I've read that it should be cleaned out once a > > year and replaced every 3 years (in constant live-aboard use). > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Seven Seas Cruising Association publishes a survey on equipment > > > every four years > > > with the past 5 surveys spanning 18 years. On every survey the Lavac > > > Head was number 1. > > > Maintenance is replacing a seat seal every 10 to 20 years. Two > extra y > > > valves and the head > > > becomes an additional emergency bilge pump manual or electric > depending > > > on how u set > > > up your plumbing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15024|14838|2007-10-21 05:02:22|kingsknight4life|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I was wondering if this combo would work well? - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop condensation. - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? Ouch. Rowland| 15025|14977|2007-10-21 10:12:14|Gerd|Re: Blue Water Sitting|talking about the lavac: many, many years ago, when chartering I had a vacuum toilet on the boat. One of the girls on board, a big, soft gently girl,was a bit on the "round" side. When coming on board, she got the usual explanations and warnings, don't put anything in you have not eaten first, about the vacuum and all that techical stuff.. She disappeared during dinner for her first on-board experience. She stayed away a very very long time, and we heard quite a lot of heavy grunting, pumping, grunting again, pumping...we all sat there, stony faces pretending to hear nothing... finally she reappeard all red, sweaty and exhausted. It turned out that she had managed to work the loo with the lid open, while sitting on it ;-) After that I tried it myself, but found the experience rather painful, and (in those days) was to bony to get a proper seal established...| 15026|14838|2007-10-21 10:23:02|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Rowland No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you are planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside " that I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating paint addative. We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, sandblasting has been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the traditional paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers available will be water based in my area. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > was wondering if this combo would work well? > > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > condensation. > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > Ouch. > > Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15027|14838|2007-10-21 10:38:50|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL OUT' period, end of story. I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) Seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Rowland > No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you are > planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . > The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside " that > I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating paint > addative. > We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, sandblasting has > been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the traditional > paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers available > will be water based in my area. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kingsknight4life" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > > was wondering if this combo would work well? > > > > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > > condensation. > > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > > > > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > > Ouch. > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15028|14838|2007-10-21 12:01:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Haven't used rust bullet. Tried many other rust converters, lots of different formulas. Never been happy with the results long term in the marine environment. The converters don't get deep enough to eliminate the rust. Eventually the paint fails. Nothing compares to blasting for steel. For aluminum, I've seen good results from buffing with a SS wire wheel, followed by acid etch primer. It can all be do-it-yourself and really cut costs as compared to blasting and spray painting steel. Add in the cost of using insulated FG panels with aluminum, as compared to foaming steel, you are going to be very close to eating up the cost difference in the metal. Foam is preferred for both aluminum and steel, if you have the budget, for insulation and sound proofing. For steel it is also preferred as an anti-corrosive in areas where you cannot repaint. Even in Asia, lots of yards don't allow sand blasting any more. Where they do, the price is high for good work. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:39 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL OUT' period, end of story. I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) Seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Rowland > No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you are > planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . > The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside " that > I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating paint > addative. > We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, sandblasting has > been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the traditional > paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers available > will be water based in my area. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kingsknight4life" > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > > was wondering if this combo would work well? > > > > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > > condensation. > > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > > > > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > > Ouch. > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15029|14838|2007-10-21 12:04:10|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Yep seer Thats what all the guru's will say, but ask if they ever tryed! We all agree that blasting to white metal is best. Whats the best 2'nd alternative when preprimed is not available? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial > yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL > OUT' period, end of story. > > I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) > > Seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Rowland >> No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you > are >> planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . >> The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside > " that >> I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating > paint >> addative. >> We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, > sandblasting has >> been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the > traditional >> paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers > available >> will be water based in my area. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "kingsknight4life" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I >> > was wondering if this combo would work well? >> > >> > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. >> > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. >> > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop >> > condensation. >> > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the >> > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate >> > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. >> > >> > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, >> > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) >> > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and >> > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? >> > Ouch. >> > >> > Rowland >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15030|14838|2007-10-21 12:10:50|mickeyolaf|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Rowland, it's $2500.00 on V/Island to have a 36 done to 1.5"s but u have to carve and sand it level yourself. Very messy unpleasant cleanup but great insulation. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > was wondering if this combo would work well? > > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > condensation. > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > Ouch. > > Rowland > | 15031|14838|2007-10-21 12:21:57|seeratlas|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|There is a big commercial yard next to the little yacht marina/yard where my boat is sitting. I counted 8 tugs in there at the moment, there are two biggies sitting just up the river waiting their turn, btw, if anyone wants to convert a 'biggie' :) there is a 110 or so foot Canadian mil boat of some kind there that is for sale :) hehehe. Prob cost you ten million US peso's to do it tho :) Anyway, this old guy runs the paint part of the yard...gotta be 70 something...been doing it all his life so that's why I went over to see him. I've rebuilt a lot of cars, primarily 4x4's and fooled around with various rust converters, they essentially do the same thing. As greg points out, the problem is penetration. You always have the chance of having remaining rust between your new iron phosphate up which you spend all that money laying down all that paint. Whether by flexing, temp changes caused or otherwise, sooner or later that rust is going to come loose and create a cavity that is going to eat sideways under all that expensive paint.. In the 'short' run, i suppose you can get away with a lot of things, but if you're taking the time to build a boat, I would think you'd want to keep the sob and not have to do it again anytime soon...so, you're in 'long run' mode..and there simple doesn't seem to be anything better than getting down to baremetal and going from there. Now for the sandblasting part, there are a lot of different ways to blast, including localized with suction recovery of the sand and debri-basically you're blasting in a tent. I've blasted a lot of truck frames, and yeah, its hot, messy, and can be expensive if you don't do it yourself. However, you CAN do it yourself, with borrowed/rented equipment and take your time,do it right, and imho, come out better in the end. One thing really good about the tent setup, is you can do one area at a time, stop, get your primer down etc. then move on to next area. This lets you use a smaller rig, but still gets it done. Gord? I seem to remember a chit load of sand you were vacumming out of your tanks ...what do you figure it cost you to blast that 40? Oh, and as i was advised on my boat on the several small places where I have some surface bloom, get out the grinder, my big 'dremel' rig (not the little bitty thing, but a commercial with flexible hose going to a chuck that takes all sorts of bits, wire brushes, wheels, drills, sanders etc. and "take your time but get it all and be done with it." As always, your mileage may vary, but that's what i'm going to do. Now in places where things are easily accessible, visible 24/7 etc. then it might make sense to fall into the standard steel boat owner routine of keeping some paint, a chipping hander, sand block etc. handy and just jumping on it when you see the tell tale weeping... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yep seer Thats what all the guru's will say, but ask if they ever tryed! We > all agree that blasting to white metal is best. > Whats the best 2'nd alternative when preprimed is not available? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:38 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial > > yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL > > OUT' period, end of story. > > > > I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) > > > > Seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> Rowland > >> No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you > > are > >> planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . > >> The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside > > " that > >> I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating > > paint > >> addative. > >> We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, > > sandblasting has > >> been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the > > traditional > >> paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers > > available > >> will be water based in my area. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "kingsknight4life" > >> To: > >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > >> > >> > >> > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > >> > was wondering if this combo would work well? > >> > > >> > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > >> > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > >> > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > >> > condensation. > >> > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > >> > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > >> > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > >> > > >> > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > >> > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > >> > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > >> > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > >> > Ouch. > >> > > >> > Rowland > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15032|14838|2007-10-21 12:26:40|mickeyolaf|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Rowland, it's $800 to have your boat soda blasted on Vancouver Island on the outside including the house and cabin. I never asked him about an inside price. I don't know if you remember a boat called the Folks 39. They were built in a shed in Columbia Valley up above Cultis lake. They were later called Admiralty 39's. I went and looked at them years ago. $68,000 including a new Yanmar. Much plywood interior. They were foamed inside down to 6" above the bilge. Because they weren't painted inside under the foam they rusted from the inside out which turned out to be a later resale issue. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yep seer Thats what all the guru's will say, but ask if they ever tryed! We > all agree that blasting to white metal is best. > Whats the best 2'nd alternative when preprimed is not available? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:38 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > > > > was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial > > yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL > > OUT' period, end of story. > > > > I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) > > > > Seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> Rowland > >> No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you > > are > >> planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . > >> The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside > > " that > >> I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating > > paint > >> addative. > >> We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, > > sandblasting has > >> been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the > > traditional > >> paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers > > available > >> will be water based in my area. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "kingsknight4life" > >> To: > >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > >> > >> > >> > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I > >> > was wondering if this combo would work well? > >> > > >> > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. > >> > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. > >> > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop > >> > condensation. > >> > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the > >> > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate > >> > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. > >> > > >> > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, > >> > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) > >> > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and > >> > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? > >> > Ouch. > >> > > >> > Rowland > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15033|15033|2007-10-21 12:49:39|seeratlas|Yacht Breakers in Florida?|Anyone know of any good yacht breaking yards that have accumulated a lot of gear off the yachts trashed by the recent chain of major hurricanes etc? :) Doesn't matter which part of the state as I'm going to be traveling around a bit sightseeing the whole thing. Thanks in advance seer| 15034|15034|2007-10-21 14:33:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Blue water sitting|I figure the lavac (& Brents version thereof are) so effective & reliable because they work on vacume & literally suck the shit out of the boal as opposed to the "standard" method of pumping shit (man, shit under pressure, sounds like some of the jobs I've had over the years!) And yet another jem from Brent, almost peed myself laughing with....."Shit doesn't get to see the pricetag and then decide if it is going to co- operate or not" Bloody classic! Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca| 15035|14838|2007-10-21 15:07:50|Paul Wilson|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I was considering POR-15 or Rust Bullet for the outside of the hull. I was told of one boat that used POR-15 and the later coats of epoxy fell off in sheets. The POR-15 was so smooth that the epoxy wouldn't stick to it. Sanding it might have helped but it has scared me off trying something new and unproven. A coating failure inside a hull after finishing the interior would be a nightmare. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:02:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I was wondering if this combo would work well? - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop condensation. - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? Ouch. Rowland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15036|14838|2007-10-21 15:18:04|Aaron Williams|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I tried some of the por- products on my metal art and it started rusting at about 6 months. Aaron Paul Wilson wrote: I was considering POR-15 or Rust Bullet for the outside of the hull. I was told of one boat that used POR-15 and the later coats of epoxy fell off in sheets. The POR-15 was so smooth that the epoxy wouldn't stick to it. Sanding it might have helped but it has scared me off trying something new and unproven. A coating failure inside a hull after finishing the interior would be a nightmare. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:02:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. I was wondering if this combo would work well? - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop condensation. - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and tested, plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat foamed?? Ouch. Rowland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15037|14838|2007-10-21 15:55:25|Tom|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Does soda blasting leave a good profile on steel? I was playing around with the siphon blaster on the inside today, cleaning welds and corners, using clean blast "copper slag" works ok little slow, very little dust compared to sand. Nice thing you can shop vac it out of boat and reuse it, bad thing it cost $10 per 50Lbs sack. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? > Rowland, it's $800 to have your boat soda blasted on Vancouver Island on > the outside > including the house and cabin. I never asked him about an inside price. > I don't know if you remember a boat called the Folks 39. They were built > in a shed in > Columbia Valley up above Cultis lake. They were later called Admiralty > 39's. I went and > looked at them years ago. $68,000 including a new Yanmar. Much plywood > interior. They > were foamed inside down to 6" above the bilge. Because they weren't > painted inside under > the foam they rusted from the inside out which turned out to be a later > resale issue. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Yep seer Thats what all the guru's will say, but ask if they ever tryed! >> We >> all agree that blasting to white metal is best. >> Whats the best 2'nd alternative when preprimed is not available? >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "seeratlas" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:38 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> > was shooting the bull with the resident paint guru at the commercial >> > yard down here and he just kept repeating,,'PAINT FROM WHITE METAL >> > OUT' period, end of story. >> > >> > I'm not going to tell you not to do some r&d with the rust bullet tho;) >> > >> > Seer >> > >> > >> > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> Rowland >> >> No one can give you a direct awnser if it will work or not. If you >> > are >> >> planning on spray foam I wouldnt risk it . >> >> The rust bullet option, no one has of yet done the complete inside >> > " that >> >> I know of" to give a good or bad report on, same on the insulating >> > paint >> >> addative. >> >> We do need to come up with allternatives here in the US, >> > sandblasting has >> >> been outlawed in a lot of major areas, same with a lot of the >> > traditional >> >> paints and primers. Wont be long and the only paints and primers >> > available >> >> will be water based in my area. >> >> Tom >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "kingsknight4life" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:02 AM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Great post Gerd. I'm very tempted to use Rust Bullet in my hull too. >> >> > I >> >> > was wondering if this combo would work well? >> >> > >> >> > - 2 or 3 coats of Rust Bullet on the inside of the hull. >> >> > - Followed by 3 or 4 coats of Wasser tar. >> >> > - Then apply one of the insulating paints to the inside to stop >> >> > condensation. >> >> > - Lastly apply mineral or rockwool batt insulation to insulate the >> >> > boat. Apparently it (rockwool)is water resistant and might eliminate >> >> > someo of the problems associated with fibreglass insulation. >> >> > >> >> > I'm still probably going to use spray foam as it is tried and >> >> > tested, >> >> > plus it holds all of the firring strips in place.(A nice bonus.) >> >> > Although I originally thought foaming was going to cost us $1500 and >> >> > now I think I read MOB's builders paid $6K to get their boat >> >> > foamed?? >> >> > Ouch. >> >> > >> >> > Rowland >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15038|15038|2007-10-21 16:29:18|seeratlas|General Interior work|came across this site of what looks to be a guy building a damned good sized canal boat (given the house and interior shots). Anyway, he has put a huge number of construction photos of good quality which might be of help to people visualizing what brent and everyone else here is talking about re foam, insulation, battens etc. anyway, worth a look. this guy does pretty darn meticulous work , that engine room is nuts. http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image73.html seer| 15039|15038|2007-10-21 16:31:03|seeratlas|Re: General Interior work-more info.|Ok, this is how the Dutch do it :) interesting :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > came across this site of what looks to be a guy building a damned good > sized canal boat (given the house and interior shots). Anyway, he has > put a huge number of construction photos of good quality which might > be of help to people visualizing what brent and everyone else here is > talking about re foam, insulation, battens etc. anyway, worth a look. > this guy does pretty darn meticulous work , that engine room is nuts. > > http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/internal/page/image73.html > > seer > | 15040|15034|2007-10-21 16:39:48|seeratlas|Re: Blue water sitting|Just a quick note on the anti-siphon valves stuck in these pumping systems that are supposed to solve that problem. Here's the bad news..sooner or later they all freeze up. Whether salt, calcium, crap in the involved liquid, etc., I gotta tell you, you want to check these things alot. Put em where you can get at em to swap em out, cause they really are unreliable as hell, and the downside can be catastrophic. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > I figure the lavac (& Brents version thereof are) so > effective & reliable because they work on vacume & > literally suck the shit out of the boal as opposed to > the "standard" method of pumping shit (man, shit under > pressure, sounds like some of the jobs I've had over > the years!) > > And yet another jem from Brent, almost peed myself > laughing with....."Shit doesn't get to see the > pricetag and then decide if it is going to co- operate > or not" > > Bloody classic! > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > | 15041|14977|2007-10-21 16:58:09|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Blue Water Sitting|Well if you really really have to see what is going on, put a window in the lid or make the whole thing clear. As for me, I just give the standard twenty pumps. I am curious about many things in this life, but so far, I have managed to give the toilet contents a pass. No doubt I have missed some fascinating sights! ge@... wrote: > > Looking at the lavac, the problem that comes to mind is that with the lid > down you can't see when the waste is cleared so you don't know when to stop > pumping. Also, I've read it takes awhile before you can lift the lid, due > to the vacuum, so people probably don't bother to wait to clear the outlet > hose. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15042|15042|2007-10-21 17:20:19|seeratlas|More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all—in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb is sealed. Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" - Sterling Hayden Dunno if its ever been said better. seer| 15043|14977|2007-10-21 17:25:24|seeratlas|Re: Blue Water Sitting|LOL seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Well if you really really have to see what is going on, put a window in > the lid or make the whole thing clear. As for me, I just give the > standard twenty pumps. I am curious about many things in this life, but > so far, I have managed to give the toilet contents a pass. No doubt I > have missed some fascinating sights! > > > ge@... wrote: > > > > > Looking at the lavac, the problem that comes to mind is that with the lid > > down you can't see when the waste is cleared so you don't know when to stop > > pumping. Also, I've read it takes awhile before you can lift the lid, due > > to the vacuum, so people probably don't bother to wait to clear the outlet > > hose. > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 15044|15033|2007-10-21 17:46:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 04:49:39PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Anyone know of any good yacht breaking yards that have accumulated a > lot of gear off the yachts trashed by the recent chain of major > hurricanes etc? :) > > Doesn't matter which part of the state as I'm going to be traveling > around a bit sightseeing the whole thing. Well, if you stretch the meaning of "part of the state" just a bit... :) You could go down to the Virgin Islands after a 'cane passes through, and have your pick of boats to buy - usually for a dollar apiece. The only trick is, you have to get it off the bottom. See, the USVI government considers the boat the owner's responsibility (go figger!) - if it sinks, you get it off their bottom or you $$$PAY$$$ for them to do it. So, the insurance companies that end up "owning" the totalled boats are very happy to get rid of them to anyone who is interested. A friend of mine got a gorgeous 44' boat - some UK design that I don't recall, but *really* nice - that way. Raised it with the help of a local tugboat ($500), cut out the damaged fiberglass, made a "reverse" mold off the opposite side of the hull and glassed it in, got the engine rebuilt, cleaned up the inside furniture (which was mostly undamaged), and flushed the hell out of the interior, especially the wiring, with a 50/50 water and alcohol mix. All the bits and bobs added up, he got a $150K worth of boat for under $15K and several months worth of hard work. Given that Stan's own boat was completely destroyed during that hurricane, he got to live aboard while getting this one redone, took his own sweet time, and ended up much better off than he was originally. Some US companies are getting wise to it, though - I know of a big yard in Florida that takes a freighter down there after the 'canes pass and buys up whatever they can get their hands on, brings it back, then (just a while later) has a small fleet of "used" boats to sell. Not that they're going to mention these boats _real_ history, or take any particular care of the long-term problems... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15045|14838|2007-10-21 17:57:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 12:07:49PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > I was considering POR-15 or Rust Bullet for the outside of the hull. > I was told of one boat that used POR-15 and the later coats of epoxy > fell off in sheets. The POR-15 was so smooth that the epoxy wouldn't > stick to it. Sanding it might have helped but it has scared me off > trying something new and unproven. A coating failure inside a hull > after finishing the interior would be a nightmare. That parallels my experience with POR-15 exactly. Not only did the paint come off in sheets - after a year or so, due to the flexing of the deck the POR-15 itself peeled off in sheets. And, yes, we followed the factory instructions _exactly_ - though they're a huge, multi-step pain in the ass. RustBullet sounds like it's a lot less finicky about the application process, so I might try that in the future. Incidentally, I've been using the Top Secret one-part epoxy (TS-100) on "Ulysses"; I can't say that I'm impressed. Pros: It rolls well, has excellent coverage and "hiding" ability, and self-levels very well. Cons: it takes for-bloody-EVER to dry (a week at least), and can still be scratched off with your thumbnail two weeks later. The paint on hatch that I painted more than a month ago still takes an impression from a thumbnail, although you can't quite break through the entire coat. I'm going to sand this stuff in another month (when it'll hopefully stop clogging the sandpaper) and give it a coat or two of Devoe. [sigh] Frankly, I consider the painting that I've done with this stuff to be a complete failure. Too bad; it sounded very promising. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15046|15042|2007-10-21 19:27:31|kingsknight4life|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we know it > our lives are gone. > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each day, > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all—in the > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb > is sealed. > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > - Sterling Hayden > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > seer > I TOTALLY agree. Rowland| 15047|14838|2007-10-21 19:32:52|kingsknight4life|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Rowland, it's $2500.00 on V/Island to have a 36 done to 1.5"s but u have to carve and > sand it level yourself. Very messy unpleasant cleanup but great insulation. > Thanks Mickey. I can live with that price. I must've misread but I thought the price had jumped substantially. Did you get your boat soda blasted to provide a profile for painting or are you leaving the aluminum bare? I had a guy quote me $1200 for the exterior and some touch ups inside but that was with glass?? Does anyone know if glass is a good abrasive material to blast with before painting? Rowland| 15048|15042|2007-10-21 19:46:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|computational origami|Some interesting software to predict the folding of origami shapes http://www.langorigami.com/science/treemaker/treemaker5.php4 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15049|15042|2007-10-21 20:10:22|Paul J. Thompson|Re: computational origami|Hi Greg, That was a really useful post, thanks. ge@... wrote: > Some interesting software to predict the folding of origami shapes > > > http://www.langorigami.com/science/treemaker/treemaker5.php4 -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15050|15042|2007-10-21 20:44:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: computational origami|this link has nothing to do with boats, just an interesting application of origami http://www.llnl.gov/str/March03/pdfs/03_03.2.pdf _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] computational origami Hi Greg, That was a really useful post, thanks. ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > Some interesting software to predict the folding of origami shapes > > ami.com/science/treemaker/treemaker5.php4> > http://www.langorig ami.com/science/treemaker/treemaker5.php4 -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15051|14838|2007-10-21 21:10:19|Michael Casling|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I painted my 29 foot boat with POR, the bed of the belch mobile and the kids 22 foot boat. It will not dry in warm dry weather. It will dry overnight in damp moist weather. The hull and keel ( fibreglass and cast iron ) on my boat are fine, the back of the truck is fine, the paint blistered on the small boat. On the small boat there must have been some trace moisture in the gelcoat trying to get out. This time I used Interprotect 2000E. I think a steel hull would not have the retained moisture problem, which is good for the coast areas. I sanded the POR and the antifouling stuck fine. A cover paint on the truck is flaking off the non sanded POR. It dries to a very smooth surface. Whether it is as good as other paints I do not know. I will know more when I pull the boats out again next summer. No more painting and epoxy work in the cooler months. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > That parallels my experience with POR-15 exactly. Not only did the paint > come off in sheets - after a year or so, due to the flexing of the deck > the POR-15 itself peeled off in sheets. And, yes, we followed the > factory instructions _exactly_ - though they're a huge, multi-step pain > in the ass. RustBullet sounds like it's a lot less finicky about the > application process, so I might try that in the future. > > Incidentally, I've been using the Top Secret one-part epoxy (TS- 100) on > "Ulysses"; I can't say that I'm impressed. > > Pros: It rolls well, has excellent coverage and "hiding" ability, and > self-levels very well. > > Cons: it takes for-bloody-EVER to dry (a week at least), and can still > be scratched off with your thumbnail two weeks later. The paint on hatch > that I painted more than a month ago still takes an impression from a > thumbnail, although you can't quite break through the entire coat. > > I'm going to sand this stuff in another month (when it'll hopefully stop > clogging the sandpaper) and give it a coat or two of Devoe. [sigh] > Frankly, I consider the painting that I've done with this stuff to be a > complete failure. Too bad; it sounded very promising. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15052|15033|2007-10-21 21:51:24|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|Sailorman in Lauderdale has a fairly good selection of equipment. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Yacht Breakers in Florida? Anyone know of any good yacht breaking yards that have accumulated a lot of gear off the yachts trashed by the recent chain of major hurricanes etc? :) Doesn't matter which part of the state as I'm going to be traveling around a bit sightseeing the whole thing. Thanks in advance seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15053|15033|2007-10-21 23:00:56|seeratlas|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|Thanks :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alan H. Boucher" wrote: > > Sailorman in Lauderdale has a fairly good selection of equipment. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Yacht Breakers in Florida? > > > Anyone know of any good yacht breaking yards that have accumulated a > lot of gear off the yachts trashed by the recent chain of major > hurricanes etc? :) > > Doesn't matter which part of the state as I'm going to be traveling > around a bit sightseeing the whole thing. > > Thanks in advance > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15054|14838|2007-10-21 23:28:00|J Fisher|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|Glass works as a blasting media, but does not leave as sharp a profile as sand or aluminum oxide. I used to work for a company that sprayed Teflon and we did glass media blasting on aluminum. It looked like puddles splashing under the microscope. Not as good as aluminum oxide which leaves a nice sharp finish. The advantage was the glass beads did not eat the blaster nearly as fast, so it required less maint. I will use sand or aluminum oxide when I get to that stage. I plan on blasting and painting the hull half before assembly since I cant get preprimed plate here in CO. That should prevent having to blast the inside once assembled. John -------Original Message------- From: kingsknight4life Date: 10/21/2007 4:33:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Rowland, it's $2500.00 on V/Island to have a 36 done to 1.5"s but u have to carve and > sand it level yourself. Very messy unpleasant cleanup but great insulation. > Thanks Mickey. I can live with that price. I must've misread but I thought the price had jumped substantially. Did you get your boat soda blasted to provide a profile for painting or are you leaving the aluminum bare? I had a guy quote me $1200 for the exterior and some touch ups inside but that was with glass?? Does anyone know if glass is a good abrasive material to blast with before painting? Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15055|14838|2007-10-21 23:35:28|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|I have had pretty good results with POR15. The key seems to be follow the instructions exactly. I mean exactly, not sort of or more a less or mostly but to the letter. 1. clean & degrease with Marine Clean -rinse with fresh water - let dry 2. prep surfaces with Metal Ready (keep the surface wet for about 20 min) - wash off with fresh water - let dry, dry with heat gun if necessary. 3. Three coats of POR15 put on next coat as soon as the previous one goes tacky. You do not have to be so careful if the next coat is POR15 but if it is anything else, this is a key point. 4. if you are not ready to overcoat with epoxy or whatever your final coating is to be, put a coat of Tie Coat over the POR15. you can then overcoat up to a year later without sanding. the above Marine Clean, Metal Ready and Tie Coat are all POR15 products and work well together. I would love to try Rust Bullet as it seems much simpler but unfortunately I have not been able to find a supplier in New Zealand. I have used POR15 on my new Brent type rudder, two years later it is fine. Michael Casling wrote: > I painted my 29 foot boat with POR, the bed of the belch mobile and > the kids 22 foot boat. > It will not dry in warm dry weather. It will dry overnight in damp > moist weather. > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15056|14838|2007-10-22 02:33:23|jim_both|Re: Insulating Paint, Foam current thinking?|There is a New Zealand distributor of Rustbullet. New Zealand Distributor Dan Hellyer 09 443 6711 (work) 0275 702 451 (mobile) Dan@... 50 Unit 2 Ellice Road Glenfield, NZ www.camnz.co.nz Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I have had pretty good results with POR15. The key seems to be follow > the instructions exactly. I mean exactly, not sort of or more a less or > mostly but to the letter. > > 1. clean & degrease with Marine Clean -rinse with fresh water - let dry > 2. prep surfaces with Metal Ready (keep the surface wet for about 20 > min) - wash off with fresh water - let dry, dry with heat gun if necessary. > 3. Three coats of POR15 put on next coat as soon as the previous one > goes tacky. You do not have to be so careful if the next coat is POR15 > but if it is anything else, this is a key point. > > 4. if you are not ready to overcoat with epoxy or whatever your final > coating is to be, put a coat of Tie Coat over the POR15. you can then > overcoat up to a year later without sanding. > > the above Marine Clean, Metal Ready and Tie Coat are all POR15 products > and work well together. > > I would love to try Rust Bullet as it seems much simpler but > unfortunately I have not been able to find a supplier in New Zealand. > > I have used POR15 on my new Brent type rudder, two years later it is fine. > > Michael Casling wrote: > > I painted my 29 foot boat with POR, the bed of the belch mobile and > > the kids 22 foot boat. > > It will not dry in warm dry weather. It will dry overnight in damp > > moist weather. > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 15057|15042|2007-10-22 05:59:55|sae140|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|Yep - good words. One BIG problem with life is that you don't know when you're gonna die - so there's a seductive tendency to plan and plan ... and generally procrastinate about life as if you're gonna live forever. Then - when you DO eventually discover when you're gonna die - it's too damned late. Another problem is the ill-defined but persistent idea with which we are all indoctrinated from early childhood - that if we live good lives, and obey the rules, and generally fulfill the expectations and requirements of others, then "all will be well in the end". No-one actually makes this promise in those words of course, it's more of a inferred belief-system thing. Which, I suspect, is why so many older people gradually become cynical and disillusioned as they eventually discover the uncomfortable truth that this blueprint for a happy and successful life is nowt but an illusory myth perpetuated by those in positions of power during our early impressionable lives (parents, priests, school-teachers, etc.), and who probably believed in that credo themselves. I'm thinking that's why the lifestyle of any maverick who has broken out of the mould appears so attractive to us - 'cause deep-down we all know the myth for what it really is. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of > security > > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we > know it > > our lives are gone. > > > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each > day, > > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all—in > the > > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our > economic > > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time > payments, > > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our > attention > > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they > lie > > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the > tomb > > is sealed. > > > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > > > - Sterling Hayden > > > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > > > seer > > > I TOTALLY agree. > Rowland > | 15058|15058|2007-10-22 09:40:06|mickeyolaf|Swain 36 for sale in CA|"Yachtfinders" at www.yachtfinders.biz has a 1988 Swain 36 for sale for $68.000. Described as follows, "Archetype" is a beautifully appointed offshore vessel with all new systems that have been professionally installed. Attention to detail and overriding concern for safety are paramount to her knowledgeable sailor. Both beautiful and solidly built, she is a rare find in today's market." There's another interesting American boat for sale privately at 928- 231-9664. A 42' aluminum Colvin, Yanmar 50 with 205hrs, furling, 5kw Northern Lights, new North sails, 4 new ST winches, dinghy, davits, schooner rig etc. Many extra's. $54,900. Less than material cost??????????? The motor alone is 14. You'd never build one for that. Save ten years of your life building. For those sitting on the fence as to whether to build or not this might be a good boat to look at.| 15059|15042|2007-10-22 09:57:28|mickeyolaf|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|Someone (not me) said most men live lives of quiet desperation. And as we get older the possibilities are no longer infinite. In your fifties you can't join the navy and see the world as the military won't look at u cause you're too old. The hair goes grey or out, muscles and backs hurt, the young babes ignore us. So still seeking adventure we dream about and follow the freedoms we're still allowed. Harley's, new trucks, and boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Yep - good words. > > One BIG problem with life is that you don't know when you're gonna die > - so there's a seductive tendency to plan and plan ... and generally > procrastinate about life as if you're gonna live forever. Then - when > you DO eventually discover when you're gonna die - it's too damned late. > > Another problem is the ill-defined but persistent idea with which we > are all indoctrinated from early childhood - that if we live good > lives, and obey the rules, and generally fulfill the expectations and > requirements of others, then "all will be well in the end". No-one > actually makes this promise in those words of course, it's more of a > inferred belief-system thing. > > Which, I suspect, is why so many older people gradually become cynical > and disillusioned as they eventually discover the uncomfortable truth > that this blueprint for a happy and successful life is nowt but an > illusory myth perpetuated by those in positions of power during our > early impressionable lives (parents, priests, school-teachers, etc.), > and who probably believed in that credo themselves. > I'm thinking that's why the lifestyle of any maverick who has broken > out of the mould appears so attractive to us - 'cause deep-down we all > know the myth for what it really is. > > Colin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > > > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > > > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of > > security > > > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we > > know it > > > our lives are gone. > > > > > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each > > day, > > > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > > > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all— in > > the > > > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our > > economic > > > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time > > payments, > > > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our > > attention > > > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > > > > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they > > lie > > > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the > > tomb > > > is sealed. > > > > > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > > > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > > > > > - Sterling Hayden > > > > > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > > > > > seer > > > > > I TOTALLY agree. > > Rowland > > > | 15060|15033|2007-10-22 12:43:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 09:54:41PM -0400, Alan H. Boucher wrote: > Sailorman in Lauderdale has a fairly good selection of equipment. Heck, if we're talking about that sort of thing - which is more "boat parts" rather than "parts of boats", and I thought that seer was asking about the latter - then Sailor's Exchange, right here in St. Augustine, has a really good selection of stuff, pretty much like Sailorman. Better yet, Yvette is very friendly and usually willing to make a deal, especially on quantity - all of which is the opposite of my last experience at Sailorman. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15061|15061|2007-10-22 13:13:57|Aaron|Moving the hull|I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. Aaron| 15062|15061|2007-10-22 13:35:37|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Moving the hull|Sounds like you could get a tarp; build yourself an ice rink under your hull and then slide it over. Doug J Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: Aaron To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:13 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Moving the hull I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. Aaron ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15063|15061|2007-10-22 13:59:11|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Moving the hull|Drag it? Seems like it could be a lot less structurally complete and could stand that stress rather than truly picking it up. I don't know where in the process you are, but it seems like once the hull halves are attached to each other, it's getting quite strong (not speaking from any particular experience or knowledge). Alex put skids on his (but the keels were on) and drug it... I have a link here to the video... it was discussed in this list somewhere: http://www.craftacraft.com/node/177 Bruce djackson99@... wrote: > Sounds like you could get a tarp; build yourself an ice rink under your hull and then slide it over. > > Doug J > Tulsa, OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:13 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Moving the hull > > > > I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > > > > At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and > > move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I > > would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. > > 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > > Aaron -- Bruce Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 15064|15061|2007-10-22 14:08:01|brentswain38|Re: Moving the hull|Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , it can be dragged with comealongs,or whatever. I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > > At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and > move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I > would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. > 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > Aaron > | 15065|15042|2007-10-22 14:14:26|brentswain38|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|I left on my fist trip to New Zealand with $350 and about $300 worth of canned goods. Not going is far more expensive.I can spend a year in the South Pacific on what people spend on moorage or, a fraction of what they spend on a car. It's a question of how many of the so called "necessities" ( which we are brainwashed to believe are neccesities)that keep us from living our dreams. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we know it > our lives are gone. > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each day, > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all—in the > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb > is sealed. > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > - Sterling Hayden > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > seer > | 15066|15061|2007-10-22 14:27:39|Aaron Williams|Re: Moving the hull|Thanks All Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had to get that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go away. Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get the boat moved. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , it can be dragged with comealongs,or whatever. I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage Brent - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > > At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and > move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I > would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. > 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > Aaron > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15067|15034|2007-10-22 14:30:46|brentswain38|Re: Blue water sitting|Just run the vent up to the deck , on the downward side of the siphon in a straight line so you can push a screwdriver thru it, Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Just a quick note on the anti-siphon valves stuck in these pumping > systems that are supposed to solve that problem. Here's the bad > news..sooner or later they all freeze up. Whether salt, calcium, crap > in the involved liquid, etc., I gotta tell you, you want to check > these things alot. Put em where you can get at em to swap em out, > cause they really are unreliable as hell, and the downside can be > catastrophic. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > I figure the lavac (& Brents version thereof are) so > > effective & reliable because they work on vacume & > > literally suck the shit out of the boal as opposed to > > the "standard" method of pumping shit (man, shit under > > pressure, sounds like some of the jobs I've had over > > the years!) > > > > And yet another jem from Brent, almost peed myself > > laughing with....."Shit doesn't get to see the > > pricetag and then decide if it is going to co- operate > > or not" > > > > Bloody classic! > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca > > > | 15068|15033|2007-10-22 14:42:27|seeratlas|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|You gotta be kiddin me. Ben? you in St. Augustine? LOL, the boat I just bought is just west of there in Green Cove Springs LOL. Hell I just got back from a week in and about St. Augustine, drinking with all those bikers heading down to daytona :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 09:54:41PM -0400, Alan H. Boucher wrote: > > Sailorman in Lauderdale has a fairly good selection of equipment. > > Heck, if we're talking about that sort of thing - which is more "boat > parts" rather than "parts of boats", and I thought that seer was asking > about the latter - then Sailor's Exchange, right here in St. Augustine, > has a really good selection of stuff, pretty much like Sailorman. Better > yet, Yvette is very friendly and usually willing to make a deal, > especially on quantity - all of which is the opposite of my last > experience at Sailorman. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15069|15042|2007-10-22 14:44:48|brentswain38|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|Its like the trainer asks the boxer in his corner when he's draggin his ass. "How badly do you want it'? When people say they can't afford to go cruising, what they are really saying is that they are unwilling to make the sacrifices in other areas and focus entirely on getting free. When I was 20 years old and working on my first boat , friends said "You are going to have a horrible summer." If I had insisted on having the fun summers that they isisted on I would have never gotten free. I never bothered with the bars, expensive playtime ,never went on my first date until I was 22 and had my first boat in the water, never owned a car, etc etc. The reson so many can't afford to go cruising is because they simply don't want it bad enough to make any sacrifices to get there. Then there is the elitist bullshit that convinces some that they can only do it if they can afford all new, and the most expensive boats and equipment available. I've seen many suckered in tot his belief,who find when they finally get to the coconut patch that the whole time they have been working , others have been out there cruising in smaller simpler boats on a shoestring budget, having rejected the consumerism approach. It sometimes embarasses the shit out of them for having been suckered for so long.Som even get suckered into spending $700 on a head Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we know it > our lives are gone. > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each day, > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all—in the > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb > is sealed. > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > - Sterling Hayden > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > seer > | 15070|15033|2007-10-22 14:52:39|seeratlas|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|That is too rich LOL. Sailor's exchange was first place I found :) Going through there was what prompted to see if there were anymore like that around :) How long are you down there for? the season? I've got to load up one of my jeep things with a load of tools etc. and drive back down there. Going to be cleaning, painting and generally fitting out there for the next few months. seer ps. loved St. Augustine, wandered into a karaoke bar full of college coeds and divorcees and had the most fun I've had in years :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > You gotta be kiddin me. Ben? you in St. Augustine? > LOL, the boat I just bought is just west of there in Green Cove > Springs LOL. Hell I just got back from a week in and about St. > Augustine, drinking with all those bikers heading down to daytona :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 09:54:41PM -0400, Alan H. Boucher wrote: > > > Sailorman in Lauderdale has a fairly good selection of equipment. > > > > Heck, if we're talking about that sort of thing - which is more "boat > > parts" rather than "parts of boats", and I thought that seer was asking > > about the latter - then Sailor's Exchange, right here in St. Augustine, > > has a really good selection of stuff, pretty much like Sailorman. Better > > yet, Yvette is very friendly and usually willing to make a deal, > > especially on quantity - all of which is the opposite of my last > > experience at Sailorman. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15071|15033|2007-10-22 15:10:48|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:42:26PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > You gotta be kiddin me. Ben? you in St. Augustine? > LOL, the boat I just bought is just west of there in Green Cove > Springs LOL. Hell I just got back from a week in and about St. > Augustine, drinking with all those bikers heading down to daytona :) I'll be damned. Well, if you're still around, let me know - there's some great places to hang out around here. Although I'm not nearly the party animal I used to be. :) I'm very familiar with Green Cove - been through there a bunch of times, came close to arranging a full hull blasting with the commercial guys there (ended up going with a company out of Jacksonville that was very good, instead.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15072|15033|2007-10-22 15:17:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:52:32PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > That is too rich LOL. Sailor's exchange was first place I found :) [laugh] Fun place, that. > Going through there was what prompted to see if there were anymore > like that around :) How long are you down there for? the season? I've actually been here for a few years - with an occasional break for the Bahamas, etc. I've been working my ass off on the boat (at this point, I'm probably a month or so away from finishing everything up) so I could take off again. Although there's some stuff going on right now that might keep me here for a while yet. :( > I've > got to load up one of my jeep things with a load of tools etc. and > drive back down there. Going to be cleaning, painting and generally > fitting out there for the next few months. My big BMW bike just crapped out on me a couple of days ago - I haven't even had a chance to look at what's wrong, but suspect the fuel pump - but once I get it roadworthy again, I'd love to come see your dream ship. > seer > > ps. loved St. Augustine, wandered into a karaoke bar full of college > coeds and divorcees and had the most fun I've had in years :) Ah. If that was Tradewinds, then you were about 300 yards from where I normally tie up. Talk about a small world! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15073|15042|2007-10-22 15:31:56|mickeyolaf|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|Touche. When u are only king of one throne it's best to sit on a good one. I wonder if for another couple of thousand I could get a Lavac with a heated seat, book rack, phone, daily newspaper, mp3, intercom, .................. ` --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Its like the trainer asks the boxer in his corner when he's draggin > his ass. "How badly do you want it'? > When people say they can't afford to go cruising, what they are > really saying is that they are unwilling to make the sacrifices in > other areas and focus entirely on getting free. When I was 20 years > old and working on my first boat , friends said "You are going to have > a horrible summer." If I had insisted on having the fun summers that > they isisted on I would have never gotten free. I never bothered with > the bars, expensive playtime ,never went on my first date until I was > 22 and had my first boat in the water, never owned a car, etc etc. The > reson so many can't afford to go cruising is because they simply don't > want it bad enough to make any sacrifices to get there. > Then there is the elitist bullshit that convinces some that they can > only do it if they can afford all new, and the most expensive boats > and equipment available. I've seen many suckered in tot his belief,who > find when they finally get to the coconut patch that the whole time > they have been working , others have been out there cruising in > smaller simpler boats on a shoestring budget, having rejected the > consumerism approach. It sometimes embarasses the shit out of them for > having been suckered for so long.Som even get suckered into spending > $700 on a head > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > "I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but can't afford > > it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in > > the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security > > we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine—and before we know it > > our lives are gone. > > > > What does a man need—really need? A few pounds of food each day, > > heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in—and some form of working > > activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all— in the > > material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic > > system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, > > mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention > > from the sheer idiocy of the charade. > > > > The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie > > caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb > > is sealed. > > > > Where, then lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: > > backruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?" > > > > - Sterling Hayden > > > > Dunno if its ever been said better. > > > > seer > > > | 15074|15042|2007-10-22 15:51:41|Paul J. Thompson|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|Well, add another zero and I will make you one. Add another two zero's and I'll make it float and sail as well :-) mickeyolaf wrote: > Touche. When u are only king of one throne it's best to sit on a > good one. I wonder if for another couple of thousand I could get a > Lavac with a heated seat, book rack, phone, daily newspaper, mp3, > intercom, .................. > ` > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> Its like the trainer asks the boxer in his corner when he's draggin >> his ass. "How badly do you want it'? >> When people say they can't afford to go cruising, what they are >> really saying is that they are unwilling to make the sacrifices in >> other areas and focus entirely on getting free. When I was 20 > years >> old and working on my first boat , friends said "You are going to > have >> a horrible summer." If I had insisted on having the fun summers > that >> they isisted on I would have never gotten free. I never bothered > with >> the bars, expensive playtime ,never went on my first date until I > was >> 22 and had my first boat in the water, never owned a car, etc etc. > The >> reson so many can't afford to go cruising is because they simply > don't >> want it bad enough to make any sacrifices to get there. >> Then there is the elitist bullshit that convinces some that they > can >> only do it if they can afford all new, and the most expensive boats >> and equipment available. I've seen many suckered in tot his > belief,who >> find when they finally get to the coconut patch that the whole > time >> they have been working , others have been out there cruising in >> smaller simpler boats on a shoestring budget, having rejected the >> consumerism approach. It sometimes embarasses the shit out of them > for >> having been suckered for so long.Som even get suckered into > spending >> $700 on a head >> Brent -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15075|15042|2007-10-22 15:57:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: More Incentive/Encouragement to get you there :)|On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 07:31:52PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > Touche. When u are only king of one throne it's best to sit on a > good one. I wonder if for another couple of thousand I could get a > Lavac with a heated seat, book rack, phone, daily newspaper, mp3, > intercom, .................. Heck, that's easy; the Japanese have been doing that kind of thing for years. http://www.totoneorest.com/home.html Now, if you wanted to add a little more class to you boat, that costs a few dollars extra: http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007-04-24/gould-ritzytoilets/ritzytoilets1.JPG :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15076|15033|2007-10-22 16:19:46|seeratlas|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|Now this is really nuts LOL. Ok, looks like we're going to do some sailing this year:) You'll get a kick out of the strange rig on this thing. I don't have to keep it but am going to at least give it a shot and see if it works:) Far as I've been able to find out in the last two weeks there's only one other guy out there who has one of these rigs. If it works as described in the aussie article I have from 25 years ago or so, should be a hoot.:) In any event, yeah I like the green cove place myself a lot. Not going to move the boat from there, will be doing all the refurb there. :) LOL and as for Motorcycles, heheh I have three :) One giant sob 9feet long, just under 1k lbs..two men and a small boy are required to pick it up if you drop in the parking lot :), then a Cagiva GrandCanyon with the Duck motor- like the bmw adventure bike:), then a hard core yamaha 600 single dirt bike. Dam that will be fun to have two boats in the water down there. and man are you right, SMAAAAAAAAAALLLLL world :).Tho the bar I hit was the 'English Pub'. Boy after spending all this time in the boonies in Arkansas, it was almost shock to see coeds in a bar that would rate 8's and 9's even in Southern Cal :) lol. Now, Whynhell did I think you were up near Michael somewhere in Washington state? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 06:52:32PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > That is too rich LOL. Sailor's exchange was first place I found :) > > [laugh] Fun place, that. > > > Going through there was what prompted to see if there were anymore > > like that around :) How long are you down there for? the season? > > I've actually been here for a few years - with an occasional break for > the Bahamas, etc. I've been working my ass off on the boat (at this > point, I'm probably a month or so away from finishing everything up) so > I could take off again. Although there's some stuff going on right now > that might keep me here for a while yet. :( > > > I've > > got to load up one of my jeep things with a load of tools etc. and > > drive back down there. Going to be cleaning, painting and generally > > fitting out there for the next few months. > > My big BMW bike just crapped out on me a couple of days ago - I haven't > even had a chance to look at what's wrong, but suspect the fuel pump - > but once I get it roadworthy again, I'd love to come see your dream > ship. > > > seer > > > > ps. loved St. Augustine, wandered into a karaoke bar full of college > > coeds and divorcees and had the most fun I've had in years :) > > Ah. If that was Tradewinds, then you were about 300 yards from where I > normally tie up. Talk about a small world! > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15077|15033|2007-10-22 16:59:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Yacht Breakers in Florida?|On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:19:45PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Now this is really nuts LOL. Ok, looks like we're going to do some > sailing this year:) You'll get a kick out of the strange rig on this > thing. I don't have to keep it but am going to at least give it a shot > and see if it works:) Far as I've been able to find out in the last > two weeks there's only one other guy out there who has one of these > rigs. If it works as described in the aussie article I have from 25 > years ago or so, should be a hoot.:) Woohoo! I've raced a junk rig in St. Thomas, sailed a square rigger in California, and struggled with a lateen on a little pram in the past; "Ulysses" actually has (in addition to the regular suit of sails), as best as I can translate from Dutch, "water sails" (sails designed to be flown from the *shrouds*) as well as a "spencer" (triatic stay???) Anyway... if it's got sticks and a piece of cloth, I can probably figure out how to move it. Sounds like fun in the making. :) > In any event, yeah I like the green cove place myself a lot. Not going > to move the boat from there, will be doing all the refurb there. :) Excellent place for it, as I understand it; also really good hurricane-wise. I haven't been there in a while, but there used to be an old guy there rebuilding an ex-presidential Trumpy... > LOL and as for Motorcycles, heheh I have three :) [laugh] I'm down to two now, the BMW K100RS and the little Honda Rebel 250. The Honda Nighthawk, the Suzuki Katana, and the Triumph BSA are, alas, gone... > One giant sob 9feet > long, just under 1k lbs..two men and a small boy are required to pick > it up if you drop in the parking lot :), then a Cagiva GrandCanyon > with the Duck motor- like the bmw adventure bike:), [whistle] *Nice*. > then a hard core > yamaha 600 single dirt bike. Dam that will be fun to have two boats > in the water down there. and man are you right, SMAAAAAAAAAALLLLL > world :).Tho the bar I hit was the 'English Pub'. Heh. Hope the English food didn't poison you (note to the UK readers: it's not that it's *English*; it's that it's English and *here*. Ranges from middlin' to awful - but there's a really good English pub about 10 miles up the road.) > Boy after spending > all this time in the boonies in Arkansas, it was almost shock to see > coeds in a bar that would rate 8's and 9's even in Southern Cal :) lol. Two reasons: Flagler College is an art school, and Flagler hospital is a teaching hospital. Cute nurses-to-be... mmmm. :) We'd better get back to talking about boats, or Alex will yell at us. :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15078|15033|2007-10-22 17:54:37|djackson99@aol.com|Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Are these the correct steps? Thanks Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15079|15033|2007-10-22 19:16:51|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15080|15033|2007-10-22 20:11:58|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Oh, Greg's site is Origamimagic.com and not Elliot Marine from what NZ? :) there's a greg elliot downunder too :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > inquiry generates.:) > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > fun as it could have been. > > good luck tho :) > > seer > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > there with aluminum experience. > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > welder and technique. > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > and non-critical work. > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > welder setup? > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > oxide. > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > permanent backing bar. > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > Thanks > > Doug Jackson > > Tulsa, OK > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15081|15033|2007-10-22 20:17:13|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Hey Seer I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and be done with it. I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and help me pull the hull.? The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld joints. Opinions on that would be great too. Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. Doug & Kay Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15082|15033|2007-10-22 20:31:57|Michael Casling|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|There is a Greg Elliott in Auckland NZ, used to build wood boats, later started designing them. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Oh, Greg's site is Origamimagic.com and not Elliot Marine from what > NZ? :) there's a greg elliot downunder too :) > > seer | 15083|15033|2007-10-22 21:10:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15084|15033|2007-10-22 21:16:11|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|My bad :) of course 65 works fine for a dive boat. One other thing tho, I'll assume you've checked with someone up to date on the construction requirements for anything commercial ....there's a whole lot of 'gotchas' involved that have found people with completed perfectly seaworthy boats that cannot be chartered because some inane spec wasn't complied with during construction. :) yeah, I am SOOOOO looking forward to finishing off the new ship. Lots of surprises, fortunately, so far, all of em good ones :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Hey Seer > > I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and be done with it. > > I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and help me pull the hull.? > > The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld joints. Opinions on that would be great too. > > Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > > inquiry generates.:) > > > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > > fun as it could have been. > > > > good luck tho :) > > > > seer > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > > there with aluminum experience. > > > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > > welder and technique. > > > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > > and non-critical work. > > > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > > welder setup? > > > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > > oxide. > > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > > permanent backing bar. > > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug Jackson > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15085|15061|2007-10-22 21:34:36|Tom|Re: Moving the hull|With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane if you dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > Thanks All > > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had to get > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go away. > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get the > boat moved. > Aaron > > brentswain38 wrote: > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , it can > be > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > Brent > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: >> >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. >> Aaron >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15086|15033|2007-10-22 21:44:57|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Actually dive boat paints the wrong picture too.? (Speaking of picture, where did you post a photo of your boat?)? I only plan to get a 6-pack charter license and have no plans of working a route.? The divers I'll charter to will have a specific target in mind.? We think it would be great fun to host grad students that want a low very cost research vessel.? It is my understanding that the 6-pack gets me around the complications of the commercial charter regulations, or is there something I missed?? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:16 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed My bad :) of course 65 works fine for a dive boat. One other thing tho, I'll assume you've checked with someone up to date on the construction requirements for anything commercial ....there's a whole lot of 'gotchas' involved that have found people with completed perfectly seaworthy boats that cannot be chartered because some inane spec wasn't complied with during construction. :) yeah, I am SOOOOO looking forward to finishing off the new ship. Lots of surprises, fortunately, so far, all of em good ones :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Hey Seer > > I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and be done with it. > > I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and help me pull the hull.? > > The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld joints. Opinions on that would be great too. > > Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > > inquiry generates.:) > > > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > > fun as it could have been. > > > > good luck tho :) > > > > seer > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > > there with aluminum experience. > > > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > > welder and technique. > > > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > > and non-critical work. > > > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > > welder setup? > > > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > > oxide. > > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > > permanent backing bar. > > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug Jackson > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15087|15033|2007-10-22 21:50:05|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15088|15033|2007-10-22 22:17:56|Wesley Cox|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Were it me, I would stagger the finish welds significantly. I have only limited experience with aluminum as thick as 3/8", but my first guess is weld 6", skip 2' to the end of the seam, do the same for all seams when doing the long seams, keeping it symmetrical, port to starboard and top to bottom, then back track and add 6" more to each 6" weld, etc. I would personally ask as many people as possible for advice who actually have experience with doing long fair welds in 3/8" aluminum, the welder not the designer, and *not* just the hooligans on this group ;-). I would also do my own experiments. As I recall aluminum has nearly twice the specific heat, the heat capacity, as steel and I do recall that it's one third as rigid. It takes more heat to weld and is less resistant to heat induced distortion, making it MUCH more inclined to warp due to welding. When I was green at welding aluminum, I didn't have enough appreciation of these facts and had a couple of assemblies sag under their own weight because I didn't stagger enough. It doesn't seem likely a 3/8" plate origami boat hull would completely sag, but the difference is only a matter of degree. My advice is proceed with caution and practice as much as possible before starting the real deal. Aluminum is a different beast than steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15089|15033|2007-10-22 22:26:17|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|No expert on charter requirements, just know there are 'gotchas' involved. maybe someone else here has some experience with it, but I'd sure get pro advice on it. as for a picture of my boat, on the left of the page, you'll see under messages, "files". Hit that and go down about 16 till you get to "Seer's 44 schooner" . In that folder you can see what I was getting ready to build, and then the pictures of the brewer and just how close they are. She's a big girl for a 44 :) lots of steel :)but nice comfortable lines in keeping with most of Ted's blue water steel cruisers. He has a whole chain of em from about 39 to 48 feet or so that differ only slightly. Also in that folder is a file called Introduction, which gives some details. The really unique thing about this boat is the rig (like I said, I've only been able to find one other guy who has one like it). It's a lot like the freedom 40 setup, almost a cat headed schooner with wrap around sails, but in this case its essentially a fabric airplane wing on its side, two of em. Ribs are just like the ones you'd see on an older airplane, in any event, its truly a 'wing' sail setup, and cost a fortune to custom build in england, only slightly less than I paid for the whole boat:) If it doesn't work, I can still use the masts for the wharram wing setup I was originally pursuing like that on shown in the pictures of the cat in the folder. You can see the excellent foil shape gained by that design :) Either way, going to be hellafun:) Saving me pretty much 18 months to 2 years from what I had planned, and a BUNCH of money :) so i'm happy :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Actually dive boat paints the wrong picture too.? (Speaking of picture, where did you post a photo of your boat?)? I only plan to get a 6-pack charter license and have no plans of working a route.? The divers I'll charter to will have a specific target in mind.? We think it would be great fun to host grad students that want a low very cost research vessel.? It is my understanding that the 6-pack gets me around the complications of the commercial charter regulations, or is there something I missed?? --Doug J > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:16 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bad :) of course 65 works fine for a dive boat. One other thing > > tho, I'll assume you've checked with someone up to date on the > > construction requirements for anything commercial ....there's a whole > > lot of 'gotchas' involved that have found people with completed > > perfectly seaworthy boats that cannot be chartered because some inane > > spec wasn't complied with during construction. :) > > > > yeah, I am SOOOOO looking forward to finishing off the new ship. Lots > > of surprises, fortunately, so far, all of em good ones :) > > > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey Seer > > > > > > I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the > > place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and > > light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and > > be done with it. > > > > > > I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the > > detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about > > doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known > > and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and > > help me pull the hull.? > > > > > > The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to > > change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of > > the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that > > point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent > > backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might > > be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld > > joints. Opinions on that would be great too. > > > > > > Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > > > > > > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > > > > > > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > > > > > > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > > > > > > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > > > > > > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > > > > > > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > > > > > > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > > > > > > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > > > > > > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > > > > > > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > > > > > > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > > > > > > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > > > > > > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > > > > > > inquiry generates.:) > > > > > > > > > > > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > > > > > > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > > > > > > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > > > > > > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > > > > > > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > > > > > > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > > > > > > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > > > > > > fun as it could have been. > > > > > > > > > > > > good luck tho :) > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > > > > > > there with aluminum experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > > > > > > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > > > > > > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > > > > > > welder and technique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > > > > > > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > > > > > > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > > > > > > and non-critical work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > > > > > > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > > > > > > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > > > > > > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > > > > > > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > > > > > > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > > > > > > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > > > > > > welder setup? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > > > > > > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > > > > > > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > > > > > > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > > > > > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > > > > > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > > > > > > oxide. > > > > > > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > > > > > > permanent backing bar. > > > > > > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > > > > > > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > > > > > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > > > > > > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > > > > > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > > > > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15090|15033|2007-10-22 22:57:04|David A. Frantz|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|I haven't done much (none) aluminum welding myself but youo might want to try wandering over to the welding sites. Try the welding site here which may help you reference other sites. In any event one rule of thumb I see thrown about is 1 amp of current for every thousands in thickness. When doing aluminum you quickly get into the big machine territory. Dave djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there > with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable > to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the > 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them > exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 > feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! > - http://mail.aol.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15091|15033|2007-10-22 22:59:12|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Thanks for the input Wesley.? I think what you have described is called a stitch weld?? I have used it myself and it does keep the plate flat.? And yes, your ask everyone with experience and then test it is exactly my approach.? The only thing I don't like about stitch welding is the number of stops and starts, but my experience is limited to 3/16 sheet and in spray mode 6 inches goes by really fast.? The Millermatic 350P also has a hot start feature that should help.? Would you have any experience with the hot start to know?? Anyway, your 6 skip 24 for 3/8 is a good starting point.? Thanks. --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Were it me, I would stagger the finish welds significantly. I have only limited experience with aluminum as thick as 3/8", but my first guess is weld 6", skip 2' to the end of the seam, do the same for all seams when doing the long seams, keeping it symmetrical, port to starboard and top to bottom, then back track and add 6" more to each 6" weld, etc. I would personally ask as many people as possible for advice who actually have experience with doing long fair welds in 3/8" aluminum, the welder not the designer, and *not* just the hooligans on this group ;-). I would also do my own experiments. As I recall aluminum has nearly twice the specific heat, the heat capacity, as steel and I do recall that it's one third as rigid. It takes more heat to weld and is less resistant to heat induced distortion, making it MUCH more inclined to warp due to welding. When I was green at welding aluminum, I didn't have enough appreciation of these facts and had a couple of assemblies sag under their own weight because I didn't stagger enough. It doesn't seem likely a 3/8" plate origami boat hull would completely sag, but the difference is only a matter of degree. My advice is proceed with caution and practice as much as possible before starting the real deal. Aluminum is a different beast than steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15092|15033|2007-10-22 23:37:43|djackson99@aol.com|Used Boat -- was Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|You are obviously joyful with your fine and I find that inspiring.? So much so that I spent a couple of hours today browsing the used boat ads instead of doing my job. Can I say that in this forum?? ....well, not my fist sin :)?? If I had the money today that I am going to put into the boat I plan to build over the next 6 years I would look a lot harder.? If I save for 4 years I could buy, but I would never find the boat I have Jack designing so I would have to settle for something else.? And I do enjoy building stuff and there is that vanity and pride thing too that I get from something I build even knowing that a professional will make fewer mistakes.? Or will they, I have seen "professionals" create some real turds and call it software so I know there are "professional" build boats with the same pedigree.? Profit frequently seems to often take precedence over quality.? Obviously very conflicted, but I an still happy for you.? Hope to see you on the water soon.? I'm going to need several photos of your spitfire wings before I understand how they actually work.? Best --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:26 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed No expert on charter requirements, just know there are 'gotchas' involved. maybe someone else here has some experience with it, but I'd sure get pro advice on it. as for a picture of my boat, on the left of the page, you'll see under messages, "files". Hit that and go down about 16 till you get to "Seer's 44 schooner" . In that folder you can see what I was getting ready to build, and then the pictures of the brewer and just how close they are. She's a big girl for a 44 :) lots of steel :)but nice comfortable lines in keeping with most of Ted's blue water steel cruisers. He has a whole chain of em from about 39 to 48 feet or so that differ only slightly. Also in that folder is a file called Introduction, which gives some details. The really unique thing about this boat is the rig (like I said, I've only been able to find one other guy who has one like it). It's a lot like the freedom 40 setup, almost a cat headed schooner with wrap around sails, but in this case its essentially a fabric airplane wing on its side, two of em. Ribs are just like the ones you'd see on an older airplane, in any event, its truly a 'wing' sail setup, and cost a fortune to custom build in england, only slightly less than I paid for the whole boat:) If it doesn't work, I can still use the masts for the wharram wing setup I was originally pursuing like that on shown in the pictures of the cat in the folder. You can see the excellent foil shape gained by that design :) Either way, going to be hellafun:) Saving me pretty much 18 months to 2 years from what I had planned, and a BUNCH of money :) so i'm happy :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Actually dive boat paints the wrong picture too.? (Speaking of picture, where did you post a photo of your boat?)? I only plan to get a 6-pack charter license and have no plans of working a route.? The divers I'll charter to will have a specific target in mind.? We think it would be great fun to host grad students that want a low very cost research vessel.? It is my understanding that the 6-pack gets me around the complications of the commercial charter regulations, or is there something I missed?? --Doug J > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:16 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bad :) of course 65 works fine for a dive boat. One other thing > > tho, I'll assume you've checked with someone up to date on the > > construction requirements for anything commercial ....there's a whole > > lot of 'gotchas' involved that have found people with completed > > perfectly seaworthy boats that cannot be chartered because some inane > > spec wasn't complied with during construction. :) > > > > yeah, I am SOOOOO looking forward to finishing off the new ship. Lots > > of surprises, fortunately, so far, all of em good ones :) > > > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey Seer > > > > > > I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the > > place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and > > light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and > > be done with it. > > > > > > I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the > > detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about > > doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known > > and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and > > help me pull the hull.? > > > > > > The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to > > change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of > > the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that > > point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent > > backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might > > be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld > > joints. Opinions on that would be great too. > > > > > > Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > > > > > > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > > > > > > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > > > > > > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > > > > > > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > > > > > > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > > > > > > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > > > > > > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > > > > > > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > > > > > > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > > > > > > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > > > > > > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > > > > > > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > > > > > > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > > > > > > inquiry generates.:) > > > > > > > > > > > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > > > > > > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > > > > > > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > > > > > > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > > > > > > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > > > > > > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > > > > > > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > > > > > > fun as it could have been. > > > > > > > > > > > > good luck tho :) > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > > > > > > there with aluminum experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > > > > > > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > > > > > > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > > > > > > welder and technique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > > > > > > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > > > > > > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > > > > > > and non-critical work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > > > > > > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > > > > > > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > > > > > > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > > > > > > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > > > > > > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > > > > > > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > > > > > > welder setup? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > > > > > > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > > > > > > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > > > > > > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > > > > > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > > > > > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > > > > > > oxide. > > > > > > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > > > > > > permanent backing bar. > > > > > > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > > > > > > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > > > > > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > > > > > > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > > > > > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > > > > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15093|15033|2007-10-22 23:43:35|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Thanks Dave, I will take full advantage of the knowledge there.? I found something scary!? If you google "welding aluminum boat" my web site; www.submarineboat.com will show up.? I better get this right of some poor slob may do something they regret.? :)??? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed I haven't done much (none) aluminum welding myself but youo might want to try wandering over to the welding sites. Try the welding site here which may help you reference other sites. In any event one rule of thumb I see thrown about is 1 amp of current for every thousands in thickness. When doing aluminum you quickly get into the big machine territory. Dave djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there > with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable > to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the > 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them > exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 > feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! > - http://mail.aol.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15094|15033|2007-10-23 00:31:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|1. 45 degree bevel.. 2. weld a series of stops every 6 inches or so, but jump back and forth all over the plate until they are in. 3. strongback the plates every 2 feet or so. 4. preheat the entire plate gently and evenly if in doubt about the weather 5. clean the 6" to be welded with a ss brush immediately before welding 6. weld 6 inch welds up to the stops, but jump back and forth all over the plate until they are in 7. flip the plates, back gouge, repeat 1-6 8. you might try a root pass with a TIG to avoid having to flip the plates. if you try and weld a plate one end to the other, even if you have stops in she will heat distort like crazy. If you move around while welding, so that the plate heats evenly, the stops and strongbacks will keep everything flat. Weld everything super hot. Turn the voltage and wire speed way up, and then up some more. don't use any sprays anywhere. SS wire wheel, ss wire brush only to clean. Keep everything clean, dry and free of oil, grease, wax, etc. A skill saw with a $5 carbide blade will cut alloy all day long like butter, without any lubricant, so long as you don't let it chatter. If it chatters the blade will shed a tooth, ruin the other teeth, and you need to replace the blade. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djackson99@... Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:50 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com> aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15095|15095|2007-10-23 02:01:01|aklove2u|ALUM. WELDER AND ...|Having welded a fair bit of alum over the years, I can only offer this advice. Your set-up as far your choice of equipment sounds fine. I personally like a Millermatic 1# spool gun, sure it means changing wire more often, but you don't have to worry about keeping your leads straight. Get what is known (at least around here) as a gummy dick. They go for about $150 U.S. and allow you to change the angle of the tip of the gun instead of repositioning your whole body. As far as your wire and every thing I think your fine. I would advise against beveling both peices of material as it requires that much more weld to fill (your already gapping the metal an 1/8 inch so penetration won't be a problem) so as far as structure one bevel is sufficient. Strong back the material as good as possible to keep it from moving. I've seen a good bit of distortion removed by needle-gunning the welds on an alum. hatch to take the stress out of them.. Would it work on a hull? I suppose. Stops and starts are notorious for for leaks in alum. so it's best to get meat axe/killer wheel (small toothed blade that fits on a 5" grinder to cut out all stops and starts for an inch or so} Depending on the thickness of certain frames or the bow stem it might be best to preheat esp. on 6061.| 15096|15096|2007-10-23 04:48:49|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For Project Scheduler & Cost Estimator|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our clients in Gold Mining Company look for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (211-68) Requirements: • Male/Female, 30 years old • Bachelor degree (S1) in Engineering • Has at least 5 - 6 years working experience similar experienced record in Engineering Project • Familiar with Primavera/ MS Project • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Willing to work and relocate in remote location for long term • Active in English is a must Cost Estimator (211-50) Requirements: • Male/female, 30 years old • Bachelor Degree (S1)in Engineering Background • Has at least 3 years working experience in same position • Familiar with read blue print and drawing • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Willing to work and relocate in remote location for long term • Active in English is a must An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the right candidate. Your application will be treated confidentially and only short listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your applications with CV and recent photo to resumes@... or PO BOX 4270 JKTM 1400 or visit our web www.mbp-skill.com and quote the above listed reference number of position.| 15097|15033|2007-10-23 10:27:50|Wesley Cox|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|When it comes to aluminum, I'm a TIG guy. If I had to build a large aluminum boat, I'm sure I would want MIG for speed. I have no experience with the cold start problem with MIG nor the hot start solution. With TIG, every start is a hot start. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the input Wesley.? I think what you have described is called a stitch weld?? I have used it myself and it does keep the plate flat.? And yes, your ask everyone with experience and then test it is exactly my approach.? The only thing I don't like about stitch welding is the number of stops and starts, but my experience is limited to 3/16 sheet and in spray mode 6 inches goes by really fast.? The Millermatic 350P also has a hot start feature that should help.? Would you have any experience with the hot start to know?? Anyway, your 6 skip 24 for 3/8 is a good starting point.? Thanks. --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Were it me, I would stagger the finish welds significantly. I have only limited experience with aluminum as thick as 3/8", but my first guess is weld 6", skip 2' to the end of the seam, do the same for all seams when doing the long seams, keeping it symmetrical, port to starboard and top to bottom, then back track and add 6" more to each 6" weld, etc. I would personally ask as many people as possible for advice who actually have experience with doing long fair welds in 3/8" aluminum, the welder not the designer, and *not* just the hooligans on this group ;-). I would also do my own experiments. As I recall aluminum has nearly twice the specific heat, the heat capacity, as steel and I do recall that it's one third as rigid. It takes more heat to weld and is less resistant to heat induced distortion, making it MUCH more inclined to warp due to welding. When I was green at welding aluminum, I didn't have enough appreciation of these facts and had a couple of assemblies sag under their own weight because I didn't stagger enough. It doesn't seem likely a 3/8" plate origami boat hull would completely sag, but the difference is only a matter of degree. My advice is proceed with caution and practice as much as possible before starting the real deal. Aluminum is a different beast than steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15098|15033|2007-10-23 12:37:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|As with steel, be even more cautious about doing long welds in alloy, and doing any long sequence of welds, end to end. Alloy shrinks and expands a hell of a lot, so the longer you make a weld, the more things heat up locally, the more things expand in that local area. Once you finish welding that area, it cools, shrinks and locks in a distortion, which almost always shows up as some big dished area in the middle of your once flat plate. The classic mistake is to start at the south end of a 20 foot seam between two plates, back stitch your way to the north end, after she cools you will have a big dish. The problem is that when you started at the south end the plates were relatively cool. By the time you got to the north end, the plates were super hot. Same thing with stringers. Weld a stringer down a plate, starting at the south end, finishing at the north, you will dish the plate for sure. The more stringers you add, the more it will dish. However, if you lay all the stringers down on the same plate, weld stops at say 12" intervals in a random sequence, then weld 3" tacks to the stops in a random sequence, so that the entire plate heats evenly, she will stay flat. It is a more effort and time, because you need to reposition for each weld, but the result is minimum distortion. Preheating helps with a couple of problems in alloy, one of which is to minimize distortion by minimizing the change in temperature during welding. Another trick is to always tack something like a strongback, flatbar, etc. to the area to be welded to hold it to shape while welding. All you need to use a tiny little spot tacks on one side of a flat bar, which break away immediately as soon as you turn the bar on its side. A flat bar on end, with spot tacks at the outside edges makes a handy "jiggle" stick to line plates up, to correct for small misalignments between the plates once you have the stops welded on. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wesley Cox Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 7:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Were it me, I would stagger the finish welds significantly. I have only limited experience with aluminum as thick as 3/8", but my first guess is weld 6", skip 2' to the end of the seam, do the same for all seams when doing the long seams, keeping it symmetrical, port to starboard and top to bottom, then back track and add 6" more to each 6" weld, etc. I would personally ask as many people as possible for advice who actually have experience with doing long fair welds in 3/8" aluminum, the welder not the designer, and *not* just the hooligans on this group ;-). I would also do my own experiments. As I recall aluminum has nearly twice the specific heat, the heat capacity, as steel and I do recall that it's one third as rigid. It takes more heat to weld and is less resistant to heat induced distortion, making it MUCH more inclined to warp due to welding. When I was green at welding aluminum, I didn't have enough appreciation of these facts and had a couple of assemblies sag under their own weight because I didn't stagger enough. It doesn't seem likely a 3/8" plate origami boat hull would completely sag, but the difference is only a matter of degree. My advice is proceed with caution and practice as much as possible before starting the real deal. Aluminum is a different beast than steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@aol. com To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be a professional welder.? Along those lines, can you add some color to the process outlined below for butt welding 3/8 5086? 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK -----Original Message----- From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:10 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Just about anybody can tack an alloy hull together, but for final welds and for butt welds on the plates I'd think about getting in a pro with his own HD MIG machine. There are a couple of technical problems welding alloy, probably the biggest being that with almost no practice anyone can lay down great looking welds that have no strength at all. Just under 60 foot is a good size in alloy because it can be made from 3 plates. Soon as you go bigger, you are going to get 3 third vertical seam. Depending on a lot of stuff, like displacement, longitudinal, bulkheads, intended service, etc., 3/8 alloy might be too light for the hull in origami, or it might be fine. A couple of problems creep in as you start to scale up an origami hull. Small errors in a 30 stick out like a sore thumb in a 50. At 60 they are plain ugly. We 3-D computerized everything to solve this. Fairing, patterns, hydro, trim, balance, upright and heeled. Takes longer, but you are going to spend big $$ to build a big boat, and mistakes are expensive. To me, if you are building in alloy, I tend to think you want to stay with a low displacement, to keep the sails small, so that she can be both fast and easy to handle. The GD56 has a D/WL just of 100 on 35,000 lbs displacement and 54 ft waterline. Plenty of 45 footers will weigh the same, will be similar to handle, but with a D/WL closer to 300 will be a lot less fun to sail. A lot of cruising designs are D/WL 300+. These boats, you can just as efficiently build them in steel, and it might even be preferred as hull size increases. _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your inquiry generates.:) I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much fun as it could have been. good luck tho :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com> aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail. aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.5/1085 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 10:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15099|15061|2007-10-23 17:46:18|brentswain38|Re: Moving the hull|Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane if you > dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. > Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Williams" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > > > > Thanks All > > > > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had to get > > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go away. > > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get the > > boat moved. > > Aaron > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , it can > > be > > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > > Brent > > > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > >> > >> > >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > >> > >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick up and > >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking that I > >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the crane here. > >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > >> Aaron > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15100|15061|2007-10-23 18:30:17|Tom|Re: Moving the hull|How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks on. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > if you >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aaron Williams" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull >> >> >> > Thanks All >> > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > to get >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > away. >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > the >> > boat moved. >> > Aaron >> > >> > brentswain38 wrote: >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > it can >> > be >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage >> > Brent >> > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. >> >> >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > up and >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > that I >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > crane here. >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. >> >> Aaron >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15101|15061|2007-10-23 18:45:39|Aaron Williams|Re: Moving the hull|That's pretty much where I stand. How would it work to drag the hull. I move it when it was in 2 halves just did not move it far enough back then. Tom wrote: How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks on. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > if you >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aaron Williams" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull >> >> >> > Thanks All >> > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > to get >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > away. >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > the >> > boat moved. >> > Aaron >> > >> > brentswain38 wrote: >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > it can >> > be >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage >> > Brent >> > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. >> >> >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > up and >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > that I >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > crane here. >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. >> >> Aaron >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15102|15033|2007-10-23 20:49:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Doug, I know how to set up welders, and how to weld aluminum when it is small stuff. But I have no experience welding large plates. I don't know your welding machine. I'd look at the duty rating. You will be doing lots of welding at 200 amps or so I would think, so you need a heavy duty cycle. Also the biggest cause of cold starts in Mig welding is the welder is too small. At the start of a Mig weld the current shoots way up. If the welder isn't powerful enough the starting current is limited and you get a cold start. The important thing about the welding gun is that it has a high enough current rating. This rating isn't based on how much current the gun can carry. It is based on how much heat the gun can tolerate! Consider a water cooled gun for a job like this, if they make them. I know that Tig torches are often water cooled and they are a pleasure to use compared to an air cooled one. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with > aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year > from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and > technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would > be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 > diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and > non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to > an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is > cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this > welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having > to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon > cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for > that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. > The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is > the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge > of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent > backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them > exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet > to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15103|15033|2007-10-23 23:32:51|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|Thanks Gary.? Your honesty is what makes your advice so valuable.? They do make the XR-Aluma-Pro in both air and water cooled.? I'll try find someone that has used both on heavy plate.? Thanks again --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed Doug, I know how to set up welders, and how to weld aluminum when it is small stuff. But I have no experience welding large plates. I don't know your welding machine. I'd look at the duty rating. You will be doing lots of welding at 200 amps or so I would think, so you need a heavy duty cycle. Also the biggest cause of cold starts in Mig welding is the welder is too small. At the start of a Mig weld the current shoots way up. If the welder isn't powerful enough the starting current is limited and you get a cold start. The important thing about the welding gun is that it has a high enough current rating. This rating isn't based on how much current the gun can carry. It is based on how much heat the gun can tolerate! Consider a water cooled gun for a job like this, if they make them. I know that Tig torches are often water cooled and they are a pleasure to use compared to an air cooled one. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out there with > aluminum experience. > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a year > from now and I want to get started practicing with the right welder and > technique. > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts would > be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think .047 > diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 and > non-critical work. > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft cable to > an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but the 350P is > cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can still get this > welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to work without having > to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? I'll leave the Argon > cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and just run a longer hose for > that. Any recommendations for a better welder setup? > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the hull. > The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface and below is > the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the edge > of each 3/8 inch plates. > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > oxide. > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a permanent > backing bar. > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between them > exposing the backing bar beneath. > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every 3 feet > to maintain the plates position. > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > Are these the correct steps? > > Thanks > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > __________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15104|15061|2007-10-24 06:34:07|edward_stoneuk|Re: Moving the hull|Aaron, We moved ours fairly easily sideways with no keels as Brent has described by rocking it and walking it. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > That's pretty much where I stand. How would it work to drag the hull. I move it when it was in 2 halves just did not move it far enough back then. > > Tom wrote: How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine > or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks > on. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > > > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > > if you > >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. > >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aaron Williams" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > >> > >> > >> > Thanks All > >> > > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > > to get > >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > > away. > >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > > the > >> > boat moved. > >> > Aaron > >> > > >> > brentswain38 wrote: > >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > > it can > >> > be > >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > >> >> > >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > > up and > >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > > that I > >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > > crane here. > >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > >> >> Aaron > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15105|15033|2007-10-24 09:56:14|seeratlas|Used Boat -- was Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed|I'll put a promotional picture of the only other boat out there with this rig that I've been able to find, and a post from someone who has sailed the rig up in the files section in the Seer's 44 Schooner folder. That should give you an idea. Quite a different look from the normal marconi, and yes, pleased as punch with the boat :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > You are obviously joyful with your fine and I find that inspiring.? So much so that I spent a couple of hours today browsing the used boat ads instead of doing my job. Can I say that in this forum?? ....well, not my fist sin :)?? If I had the money today that I am going to put into the boat I plan to build over the next 6 years I would look a lot harder.? If I save for 4 years I could buy, but I would never find the boat I have Jack designing so I would have to settle for something else.? And I do enjoy building stuff and there is that vanity and pride thing too that I get from something I build even knowing that a professional will make fewer mistakes.? Or will they, I have seen "professionals" create some real turds and call it software so I know there are "professional" build boats with the same pedigree.? Profit frequently seems to often take precedence over quality.? Obviously very conflicted, but I an still happy for you.? Hope to see you on the water soon.? I'm going to need several photos of your spitfire wings before I understand how they actually work.? Best --Doug J > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 9:26 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No expert on charter requirements, just know there are 'gotchas' > > involved. maybe someone else here has some experience with it, but I'd > > sure get pro advice on it. > > > > as for a picture of my boat, on the left of the page, you'll see under > > messages, "files". Hit that and go down about 16 till you get to > > "Seer's 44 schooner" . In that folder you can see what I was getting > > ready to build, and then the pictures of the brewer and just how close > > they are. She's a big girl for a 44 :) lots of steel :)but nice > > comfortable lines in keeping with most of Ted's blue water steel > > cruisers. He has a whole chain of em from about 39 to 48 feet or so > > that differ only slightly. Also in that folder is a file called > > Introduction, which gives some details. The really unique thing about > > this boat is the rig (like I said, I've only been able to find one > > other guy who has one like it). It's a lot like the freedom 40 setup, > > almost a cat headed schooner with wrap around sails, but in this case > > its essentially a fabric airplane wing on its side, two of em. Ribs > > are just like the ones you'd see on an older airplane, in any event, > > its truly a 'wing' sail setup, and cost a fortune to custom build in > > england, only slightly less than I paid for the whole boat:) If it > > doesn't work, I can still use the masts for the wharram wing setup I > > was originally pursuing like that on shown in the pictures of the cat > > in the folder. You can see the excellent foil shape gained by that > > design :) Either way, going to be hellafun:) Saving me pretty much 18 > > months to 2 years from what I had planned, and a BUNCH of money :) so > > i'm happy :) > > > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Actually dive boat paints the wrong picture too.? (Speaking of > > picture, where did you post a photo of your boat?)? I only plan to get > > a 6-pack charter license and have no plans of working a route.? The > > divers I'll charter to will have a specific target in mind.? We think > > it would be great fun to host grad students that want a low very cost > > research vessel.? It is my understanding that the 6-pack gets me > > around the complications of the commercial charter regulations, or is > > there something I missed?? --Doug J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 8:16 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My bad :) of course 65 works fine for a dive boat. One other thing > > > > > > tho, I'll assume you've checked with someone up to date on the > > > > > > construction requirements for anything commercial ....there's a whole > > > > > > lot of 'gotchas' involved that have found people with completed > > > > > > perfectly seaworthy boats that cannot be chartered because some inane > > > > > > spec wasn't complied with during construction. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > yeah, I am SOOOOO looking forward to finishing off the new ship. Lots > > > > > > of surprises, fortunately, so far, all of em good ones :) > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure you're absolutely right 65ft. That advice is all over the > > > > > > place, but our intension is to use and charter the boat for dive and > > > > > > light salvage work. Otherwise we'd buy or build one of those 36's and > > > > > > be done with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope Greg does respond, he certainly is one that would have the > > > > > > detail I am looking for.? I even corresponded with Greg a bit about > > > > > > doing the plans for this boat, but ended up finding the little known > > > > > > and reclusive Jack Carson who will work up the hull model for me and > > > > > > help me pull the hull.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 3/8 5086 hull plate is Jack's advice so that is not going to > > > > > > change. I know to stagger the plate joints and the actual placement of > > > > > > the joints is another good question for Jack when we get to that > > > > > > point.? I'm also thinking that stitching the edges the permanent > > > > > > backing bar to the hull plate once the hull is pulled into shape might > > > > > > be a good method for helping to reinforce the naturally weaker weld > > > > > > joints. Opinions on that would be great too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best and congratulation's on your new vessel.? May she serve you well. > > > > > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: seeratlas > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 6:16 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Welder and Welding Advice Needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Greg's site, there used to be a sequence showing someone I think > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was greg putting together *i think* a 50 ft aluminum boat. Greg has > > > > > > > > > > > > > > built at least two of these and you might ask him for some advice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regarding putting the plates together and realistic plate thicknesses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alu alloy boats are *usually* somewhat thicker plated than comparable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steel plate versions due to the the different properties of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > metals. One thing to *especially* keep foremost in your consideration > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is designing the joints to take into account the substantial loss of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > strength of alloy once welded. This is pretty critical stuff, so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've started on the right foot, find the guys that have done it and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ask them. 65 is a BIG boat, (I think greg also designed a sixty footer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if I remember right)so maybe he can offer an opinion on your chosen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate thicknesses etc. Also, the guys you've asked are pros from dover > > > > > > > > > > > > > > type welders so I'll be very interested in seeing the responses your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inquiry generates.:) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I once started thinking about a 65 -70 footer but in the end, couldn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > figure out how i'd ever sail it without a whole bunch of hydraulics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and/or electric powered winches etc. and very expensive gear, all of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which combined to make me a bit twitchy about ending up with a boat so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > big that it wouldn't be any fun to sail. My last boat was a 54 foot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approx 55k sloop and to tell you the truth, it was damned dangerous to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > single hand the thing..and I did it for over ten years...not as much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fun as it could have been. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good luck tho :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lucas, I'd love to hear from you and the other welders out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there with aluminum experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been looking at welders recently and need some advice.? I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > planning on starting a 65ft aluminum origami boat in a little over a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > year from now and I want to get started practicing with the right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > welder and technique. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The hull plate will be 3/8 inch and the interior and various parts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would be as thin as 1/8 inch and 6061. For the 3/8 inch plate I think > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .047 diameter 5356 wire would be correct and .035 4043 wire for 6061 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and non-critical work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The welder I an considering is the Millermatic 350P with a 35ft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cable to an XR-Aluma-Pro gun.? I really like the suitcase welders but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 350P is cheaper and I figure that once the hull is together I can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > still get this welder from the shop to within 35ft of were I need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > work without having to lift it in and out of the boat every time.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll leave the Argon cylinder in the shop and not on the welder and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just run a longer hose for that. Any recommendations for a better > > > > > > > > > > > > > > welder setup? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could really use some advice for welding the butt joints for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hull. The plan is to work on a leveled and compacted gravel surface > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and below is the sequence of steps I think are correct.? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Use a power planer to cut a 1/4 inch wide 45 degree bevel on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > edge of each 3/8 inch plates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Clean surfaces with paint thinner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) Surfaces not freshly cut or beveled would be ground to remove the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oxide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) A 2 inch wide piece of 3/16 sheet is laid down to act as a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > permanent backing bar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) The beveled plates are positioned with a 1/8 inch gap between > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them exposing the backing bar beneath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6) 2 inch shallow welds would be made at the corners and then every > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 feet to maintain the plates position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7) Full single pass welds to completed the joints. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are these the correct steps? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug Jackson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tulsa, OK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > > > > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15106|22|2007-10-24 09:58:49|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's 44 Schooner/Description of Sailing the Gallant Rig Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Opinion of Gavin who sailed this rig You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20%2044%20Schooner/Description%20of%20Sailing%20the%20Gallant%20Rig To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 15107|22|2007-10-24 10:01:58|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's 44 Schooner/Schooner.jpg Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Carl's Gallant Rigged 46 Schooner You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20%2044%20Schooner/Schooner.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 15108|15108|2007-10-24 12:08:23|seeratlas|Auxillary Electric Drive|After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the machinery in this boat. Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. seer| 15109|15108|2007-10-24 13:02:33|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|so long as you support the side loads it should work, though the friction losses and difficulty in belt replacement might be an issue. The outboard leg is also pretty simple. An old seagull might have the right gearing. Unfortunately not much juice in a battery. 8-15 hp, say 12kva. 1 ka @ 12 volts. 8D 200AH capacity with 50% draw down = 100 AH / 1000A = 0.1H = 6 minutes per battery. Typically the light load problem for diesels if from charging batteries, hour after hours while sitting. A small 2HP gas motor driving a 100AH large frame alternator will outperform most gensets and battery chargers for a fraction of the cost. Build it in a box, on deck with baffles to keep the sound in and the water out. Batteries are dead for whatever reason and nothing will start, the 2hp on deck with the pull cord can be plenty handy. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the machinery in this boat. Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) http://www.thunders truck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15110|15108|2007-10-24 13:48:52|mark hamill|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|This site features an electric motor mounted to an outboard. www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html I have used an "engine/alternator in a box" for quite awhile and it has worked well when wind/light conditions do not cooperate. Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > so long as you support the side loads it should work, though the friction > losses and difficulty in belt replacement might be an issue. The outboard > leg is also pretty simple. An old seagull might have the right gearing. > Unfortunately not much juice in a battery. 8-15 hp, say 12kva. 1 ka @ 12 > volts. 8D 200AH capacity with 50% draw down = 100 AH / 1000A = 0.1H = 6 > minutes per battery. > > Typically the light load problem for diesels if from charging batteries, > hour after hours while sitting. A small 2HP gas motor driving a 100AH large > frame alternator will outperform most gensets and battery chargers for a > fraction of the cost. Build it in a box, on deck with baffles to keep the > sound in and the water out. Batteries are dead for whatever reason and > nothing will start, the 2hp on deck with the pull cord can be plenty handy. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:08 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive > > > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > machinery in this boat. > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > http://www.thunders > truck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > seer > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15111|15108|2007-10-24 15:09:21|seeratlas|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|good points all 1. belts I'm going to use have a link in them so easy to put on, pull off. 2.lots of room for the pulleys. 3. making a suitable frame for the motor (and opposite side idler pulley) is a cinch as I have a ton of framing all around the area to weld the mount too. 4. easy to rig a 12 volt clutch from a truck AC compressor unit into the system, Remember I'm talking 8 hp or so. Take a look at 24 hp riding lawn motor setups. In the end, this is pretty trivial stuff. The outboards are always a possibility but I hate having stuff hanging off the back of a boat this big, and when you're hanging off the stern, the prop is constantly being lifted in and out of the water in anything but a mirror surface sea. You're right about the battery juice needed, in this case looks like a couple of the 48 volt banks I have in mind will do it. fortunately I have LOTS of room for batteries and most likely won't be using std. lead acid :) which changes the calcs substantially, more to follow on that ... hehehehe. Also, with dc, i can steplessly dial up whatever power I need from 1hp to 8 or beyond if I were to go higher than 48volt. i spent some time on a few Duffy's to get a feel for their systems. I'll have plenty of electricity available to push me for fairly good length of time, and if something goes wrong with the main, or for some other reason I want to motor for long periods with the electric, then my genset will be far more efficient at consuming fuel at the smaller hp requirements than the main anyway. A true 'get home' system, not to mention the sails :) and all the other electric regenning *stuff* on the boat. Lastly, since I use gas in the outboard for the dinghy, I'm installing a separate tank for that in the heavily vented lazarette and I've always carried a small honda genset :) a good example of which I already have, so no prob there and you are exactly right. On this boat I'm installing probably a 6 or 8k diesel genset which will be sound and physically isolation mounted in the engine room and wired into the battery bank so as to autostart when the bank reaches its programmed discharge state.At that point I'm putting in more than I'd be taking out, and much more efficiently vis a vis diesel fuel than I would be with the main. At the point I'm pulling full power from the electric drive, when the genset kicks in due to demand, the battery bank becomes more of a power buffer so I won't need as much capacity as you might think. I'm toying with the idea of a suitably sized watercooled diesel and hanging a duplicate electric motor off of it set up as a generator as opposed to another driving motor. Keep a third in storage and I've got front and back end redundancy. I'll have big alternators on the main, and if I want i can clutch in the 8hp drive motor when I'm running the main and it will also become a generator going back the other way :) Going entirely unconventional in the galley, in fact, the "stove" I have in mind can be set up to cook an entire meal at once up on deck in a fraction of the time it takes in a normal oven. Does a full T'bone, baked potatoe, veggies, etc. in about 8 minutes, is portable, can sit in prefashioned mounts just about anywhere, and is easier to clean/service than any I've ever seen. Plus, it can be used as a perfectly acceptable serving dish :) hehehe. Sure opens up possibilities in the galley. Anyway, add one or two big inverters and I should be good to go for everything except european 240 which I havn't completely thought out yet. I'm considering just wiring a completely separate and isolated system for that, as other than for shore power in those places that have it, I really won't have anything on the boat that requires it. This also lets me forego propane which is dangerous and a general pita not to mention its tendency to turn the interior into a sauna. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: > > so long as you support the side loads it should work, though the friction > losses and difficulty in belt replacement might be an issue. The outboard > leg is also pretty simple. An old seagull might have the right gearing. > Unfortunately not much juice in a battery. 8-15 hp, say 12kva. 1 ka @ 12 > volts. 8D 200AH capacity with 50% draw down = 100 AH / 1000A = 0.1H = 6 > minutes per battery. > > Typically the light load problem for diesels if from charging batteries, > hour after hours while sitting. A small 2HP gas motor driving a 100AH large > frame alternator will outperform most gensets and battery chargers for a > fraction of the cost. Build it in a box, on deck with baffles to keep the > sound in and the water out. Batteries are dead for whatever reason and > nothing will start, the 2hp on deck with the pull cord can be plenty handy. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:08 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive > > > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > machinery in this boat. > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > http://www.thunders > truck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > seer > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15112|15061|2007-10-24 15:14:30|brentswain38|Re: Moving the hull|You lay it down on one chine, do the moving, then prop it upright again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine > or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks > on. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > > > > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > > if you > >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. > >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aaron Williams" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > >> > >> > >> > Thanks All > >> > > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > > to get > >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > > away. > >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > > the > >> > boat moved. > >> > Aaron > >> > > >> > brentswain38 wrote: > >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > > it can > >> > be > >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > >> >> > >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > > up and > >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > > that I > >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > > crane here. > >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > >> >> Aaron > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15113|15061|2007-10-24 15:16:35|brentswain38|Re: Moving the hull|It's much easier to move manually when both halves are together. There is less surface bearing on the ground and it aint as floppy.Easier sti when the decks are on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > That's pretty much where I stand. How would it work to drag the hull. I move it when it was in 2 halves just did not move it far enough back then. > > Tom wrote: How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine > or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks > on. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > > > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > > if you > >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. > >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aaron Williams" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > >> > >> > >> > Thanks All > >> > > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > > to get > >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > > away. > >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > > the > >> > boat moved. > >> > Aaron > >> > > >> > brentswain38 wrote: > >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > > it can > >> > be > >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > >> >> > >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > > up and > >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > > that I > >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > > crane here. > >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > >> >> Aaron > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15114|15108|2007-10-24 15:22:44|brentswain38|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|Your boat is going to get a hell of a reputation for light air performance. I was thinking how much power you could get by rigging the pendulum generator we dicussed earlier to a generator, using the boat's motion to generate power for the motor. This may provide the ability to motor slowly for long distances using the swell for a power source. On some boats there may be room to put the motor directly in line between the tranny and the shaft, eliminating the belt drive. Let us know how you make out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > machinery in this boat. > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > seer > | 15115|15108|2007-10-24 15:28:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|Hey Seer, Before you jump on the electic wagon you should check out the very, very interesting things happening with air motors. http://www.gizmag.com/go/7000/ http://www.engineair.com.au/airmotor.htm Too me, it makes more sense for the future. It would be great to get rid of heavy, expensive, limited-life batteries that are bad for the environment. I apologize if I am sending you off on a tangent.....;) Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:08:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the machinery in this boat. Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) http://www.thunders truck-ev. com/sailboatkit. htm If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially after you price out the competition' s offerings, further the parts can be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. seer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15116|15108|2007-10-24 17:37:18|seeratlas|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that Brent, and with this thing, I have enough room to install something along those lines. You're right, of course, :) on a long passage just the swell would keep it churning away. I'll have to go back over the postings and think that thru. :) Did you have a mock up design in your latest book? Course I need to get it for the watermaker design too so I need to send you some money for another one. Made the cardinal sin and lent mine out and sure as hell, last I've seen of it LOL>:) I'll get that out to you tomorrow. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Your boat is going to get a hell of a reputation for light air > performance. > I was thinking how much power you could get by rigging the pendulum > generator we dicussed earlier to a generator, using the boat's motion > to generate power for the motor. This may provide the ability to motor > slowly for long distances using the swell for a power source. > On some boats there may be room to put the motor directly in line > between the tranny and the shaft, eliminating the belt drive. > Let us know how you make out. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > > machinery in this boat. > > > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > > > > > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > > > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > > after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can > > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > > > seer > > > | 15117|15108|2007-10-24 18:01:16|Tom|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|Dang I thought we were doing good if I had an engine or motor that ran for backup of sails and a flashlight with good batteries to backiup electric system. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Auxillary Electric Drive > good points all > > 1. belts I'm going to use have a link in them so easy to put on, pull > off. > > 2.lots of room for the pulleys. > > 3. making a suitable frame for the motor (and opposite side idler > pulley) is a cinch as I have a ton of framing all around the area to > weld the mount too. > > 4. easy to rig a 12 volt clutch from a truck AC compressor unit into > the system, > > Remember I'm talking 8 hp or so. Take a look at 24 hp riding lawn > motor setups. In the end, this is pretty trivial stuff. > > The outboards are always a possibility but I hate having stuff hanging > off the back of a boat this big, and when you're hanging off the > stern, the prop is constantly being lifted in and out of the water in > anything but a mirror surface sea. > > You're right about the battery juice needed, in this case looks like a > couple of the 48 volt banks I have in mind will do it. fortunately I > have LOTS of room for batteries and most likely won't be using std. > lead acid :) which changes the calcs substantially, more to follow on > that ... hehehehe. Also, with dc, i can steplessly dial up whatever > power I need from 1hp to 8 or beyond if I were to go higher than > 48volt. i spent some time on a few Duffy's to get a feel for their > systems. I'll have plenty of electricity available to push me for > fairly good length of time, and if something goes wrong with the main, > or for some other reason I want to motor for long periods with the > electric, then my genset will be far more efficient at consuming fuel > at the smaller hp requirements than the main anyway. A true 'get home' > system, not to mention the sails :) and all the other electric > regenning *stuff* on the boat. > > Lastly, since I use gas in the outboard for the dinghy, I'm installing > a separate tank for that in the heavily vented lazarette and I've > always carried a small honda genset :) a good example of which I > already have, so no prob there and you are exactly right. On this boat > I'm installing probably a 6 or 8k diesel genset which will be sound > and physically isolation mounted in the engine room and wired into the > battery bank so as to autostart when the bank reaches its programmed > discharge state.At that point I'm putting in more than I'd be taking > out, and much more efficiently vis a vis diesel fuel than I would be > with the main. At the point I'm pulling full power from the electric > drive, when the genset kicks in due to demand, the battery bank > becomes more of a power buffer so I won't need as much capacity as you > might think. I'm toying with the idea of a suitably sized watercooled > diesel and hanging a duplicate electric motor off of it set up as a > generator as opposed to another driving motor. Keep a third in storage > and I've got front and back end redundancy. I'll have big alternators > on the main, and if I want i can clutch in the 8hp drive motor when > I'm running the main and it will also become a generator going back > the other way :) Going entirely unconventional in the galley, in fact, > the "stove" I have in mind can be set up to cook an entire meal at > once up on deck in a fraction of the time it takes in a normal oven. > Does a full T'bone, baked potatoe, veggies, etc. in about 8 minutes, > is portable, can sit in prefashioned mounts just about anywhere, and > is easier to clean/service than any I've ever seen. Plus, it can be > used as a perfectly acceptable serving dish :) hehehe. Sure opens up > possibilities in the galley. > > Anyway, add one or two big inverters and I should be good to go for > everything except european 240 which I havn't completely thought out > yet. I'm considering just wiring a completely separate and isolated > system for that, as other than for shore power in those places that > have it, I really won't have anything on the boat that requires it. > This also lets me forego propane which is dangerous and a general pita > not to mention its tendency to turn the interior into a sauna. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@... wrote: >> >> so long as you support the side loads it should work, though the > friction >> losses and difficulty in belt replacement might be an issue. The > outboard >> leg is also pretty simple. An old seagull might have the right gearing. >> Unfortunately not much juice in a battery. 8-15 hp, say 12kva. 1 > ka @ 12 >> volts. 8D 200AH capacity with 50% draw down = 100 AH / 1000A = 0.1H = 6 >> minutes per battery. >> >> Typically the light load problem for diesels if from charging batteries, >> hour after hours while sitting. A small 2HP gas motor driving a > 100AH large >> frame alternator will outperform most gensets and battery chargers for a >> fraction of the cost. Build it in a box, on deck with baffles to > keep the >> sound in and the water out. Batteries are dead for whatever reason and >> nothing will start, the 2hp on deck with the pull cord can be plenty > handy. >> >> _____ >> >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf Of seeratlas >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:08 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive >> >> >> >> After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that >> my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft >> aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is >> actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. >> First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, >> including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel >> genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up >> diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a >> load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the >> 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and >> reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems >> a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some >> 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a >> lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the >> machinery in this boat. >> >> Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, >> however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled >> together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) >> >> http://www.thunders >> truck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm >> >> If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger >> installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in >> Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't >> likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp >> diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric >> power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the >> speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on >> windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) >> >> In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially >> after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can >> be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger >> controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing >> when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or >> generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at >> coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the >> extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. >> >> seer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15118|15108|2007-10-24 18:08:28|seeratlas|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|something still has to compress all that air..and unlike a compressed liquid, when you have a compressed gas, you've got a potential bomb. Though, assuming you can keep the type of mechanical seal on somekind of pump to create the high pressure air holding tank before feeding it into the air motor, I can see where it might work, but compare a steam engine to a comparable power electric motor and I would think the space/weight ratios would favor the little 8hp pancake DC motor and batteries which I have to have anyway. Worth considering, but for all my other electrical usages on a boat, at the moment I think the dc setup is a reasonable way for me to proceed. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Seer, > > Before you jump on the electic wagon you should check out the very, very interesting things happening with air motors. > > http://www.gizmag.com/go/7000/ > > http://www.engineair.com.au/airmotor.htm > > Too me, it makes more sense for the future. It would be great to get rid of heavy, expensive, limited-life batteries that are bad for the environment. > > I apologize if I am sending you off on a tangent.....;) > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:08:21 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > machinery in this boat. > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > http://www.thunders truck-ev. com/sailboatkit. htm > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > after you price out the competition' s offerings, further the parts can > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > seer > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15119|15108|2007-10-24 18:53:03|seeratlas|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|:) hehehe. It's been my experience that some people are happy 'getting out there' on foot, with a blanket, a knife and some string and matches; some are perfectly happy cruising some waterways in kayaks with tents, camp stoves, air mattresses and dehydrated food (I have 5 kayaks for different applications :), some like canoes (two of those), guys have taken open rowboats across oceans (include me out on this one:), and others won't set foot on the water on anything less than 1000ft with vegas type shows and 24 hour buffet! Sooner or later everyone comes to their own conclusions as to what will make them happy on the water. For me, this boat isn't a dock queen condo, or a coastal weekender, or a cruiser/racer...I'm putting together a boat I can live on for a number of months if not years at a time, and take me pretty much anywhere I'd like to go, and in relative safety. Further, I've found that if women are involved, provisions for a warm shower, and the ability to wash and dry clothes pretty much tops any other pair of things you could put on a boat. Since I happen to like women, and don't mind clean clothes or a hot shower :) especially when its cold and drizzly outside, .. well...you get my point. I also like "sailing" not classical 'motorsailing', so since I don't want to be limited by the necessity of crew and the sounds, smells and vibrations of the average diesel seem to me pretty much the opposite of the serene, 'natural' experience that sailing provides, but I also don't like slatting around going nowhere in 3 knots of wind either, well...the ability to dial up some near silent extra 'wind' thru electrics makes sense to me. Especially when the motive power behind it can be regenerated to a substantial extent by a number of methods NOT requiring firing up the big 'D". I like the self sufficiency side of being able to generate my own motive force in the absence of wind. I'm at the age and experience level that I'm pretty clear on what I want, and good fortune and events have combined to put me in a position to do this a couple of years earlier than what i was planning on..sooo... :) As all the old saws go.."To each his own", "Whatever floats your boat"..."To thine own self be true"..and Ricky Nelson's.. "You can't please everybody..you gotta please yourself" :) (or something close to that, Where's Ben when you need him :) Oh that's right, he's just a few miles from my boat! LOL. You're right Tom, for a lot of people, cruising can be a lot less complicated, look at Brent's proposed diet for instance :) heheh I know this guy...has had a boat long as I can remember, every summer he's in at Anacortes, from there up to Juneau or thereabouts and back. He trolls for salmon, drops a prawn or crab trap when the urge hits him, and EVERY single evening, rain or shine, once he's at anchor, out comes the vodka martini and all is well in his world. :) He's 92 or 93 or so at the moment, his wife only a few years shy of that, and the two of em are still at it:) Still handles his own boat. It's worked for him, and I'll give the same a go, tho I'm a 'rusty nail' kind of guy myself :) seer :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Dang I thought we were doing good if I had an engine or motor that ran for > backup of sails and a flashlight with good batteries to backiup electric > system. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Auxillary Electric Drive > > > > good points all > > > > 1. belts I'm going to use have a link in them so easy to put on, pull > > off. > > > > 2.lots of room for the pulleys. > > > > 3. making a suitable frame for the motor (and opposite side idler > > pulley) is a cinch as I have a ton of framing all around the area to > > weld the mount too. > > > > 4. easy to rig a 12 volt clutch from a truck AC compressor unit into > > the system, > > > > Remember I'm talking 8 hp or so. Take a look at 24 hp riding lawn > > motor setups. In the end, this is pretty trivial stuff. > > > > The outboards are always a possibility but I hate having stuff hanging > > off the back of a boat this big, and when you're hanging off the > > stern, the prop is constantly being lifted in and out of the water in > > anything but a mirror surface sea. > > > > You're right about the battery juice needed, in this case looks like a > > couple of the 48 volt banks I have in mind will do it. fortunately I > > have LOTS of room for batteries and most likely won't be using std. > > lead acid :) which changes the calcs substantially, more to follow on > > that ... hehehehe. Also, with dc, i can steplessly dial up whatever > > power I need from 1hp to 8 or beyond if I were to go higher than > > 48volt. i spent some time on a few Duffy's to get a feel for their > > systems. I'll have plenty of electricity available to push me for > > fairly good length of time, and if something goes wrong with the main, > > or for some other reason I want to motor for long periods with the > > electric, then my genset will be far more efficient at consuming fuel > > at the smaller hp requirements than the main anyway. A true 'get home' > > system, not to mention the sails :) and all the other electric > > regenning *stuff* on the boat. > > > > Lastly, since I use gas in the outboard for the dinghy, I'm installing > > a separate tank for that in the heavily vented lazarette and I've > > always carried a small honda genset :) a good example of which I > > already have, so no prob there and you are exactly right. On this boat > > I'm installing probably a 6 or 8k diesel genset which will be sound > > and physically isolation mounted in the engine room and wired into the > > battery bank so as to autostart when the bank reaches its programmed > > discharge state.At that point I'm putting in more than I'd be taking > > out, and much more efficiently vis a vis diesel fuel than I would be > > with the main. At the point I'm pulling full power from the electric > > drive, when the genset kicks in due to demand, the battery bank > > becomes more of a power buffer so I won't need as much capacity as you > > might think. I'm toying with the idea of a suitably sized watercooled > > diesel and hanging a duplicate electric motor off of it set up as a > > generator as opposed to another driving motor. Keep a third in storage > > and I've got front and back end redundancy. I'll have big alternators > > on the main, and if I want i can clutch in the 8hp drive motor when > > I'm running the main and it will also become a generator going back > > the other way :) Going entirely unconventional in the galley, in fact, > > the "stove" I have in mind can be set up to cook an entire meal at > > once up on deck in a fraction of the time it takes in a normal oven. > > Does a full T'bone, baked potatoe, veggies, etc. in about 8 minutes, > > is portable, can sit in prefashioned mounts just about anywhere, and > > is easier to clean/service than any I've ever seen. Plus, it can be > > used as a perfectly acceptable serving dish :) hehehe. Sure opens up > > possibilities in the galley. > > > > Anyway, add one or two big inverters and I should be good to go for > > everything except european 240 which I havn't completely thought out > > yet. I'm considering just wiring a completely separate and isolated > > system for that, as other than for shore power in those places that > > have it, I really won't have anything on the boat that requires it. > > This also lets me forego propane which is dangerous and a general pita > > not to mention its tendency to turn the interior into a sauna. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ge@ wrote: > >> > >> so long as you support the side loads it should work, though the > > friction > >> losses and difficulty in belt replacement might be an issue. The > > outboard > >> leg is also pretty simple. An old seagull might have the right gearing. > >> Unfortunately not much juice in a battery. 8-15 hp, say 12kva. 1 > > ka @ 12 > >> volts. 8D 200AH capacity with 50% draw down = 100 AH / 1000A = 0.1H = 6 > >> minutes per battery. > >> > >> Typically the light load problem for diesels if from charging batteries, > >> hour after hours while sitting. A small 2HP gas motor driving a > > 100AH large > >> frame alternator will outperform most gensets and battery chargers for a > >> fraction of the cost. Build it in a box, on deck with baffles to > > keep the > >> sound in and the water out. Batteries are dead for whatever reason and > >> nothing will start, the 2hp on deck with the pull cord can be plenty > > handy. > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > >> Behalf Of seeratlas > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:08 AM > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive > >> > >> > >> > >> After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > >> my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > >> aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > >> actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > >> First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > >> including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > >> genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > >> diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > >> load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > >> 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > >> reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > >> a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > >> 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > >> lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > >> machinery in this boat. > >> > >> Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > >> however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > >> together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > >> > >> http://www.thunders > >> truck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > >> > >> If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > >> installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > >> Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > >> likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > >> diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > >> power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > >> speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > >> windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > >> > >> In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > >> after you price out the competition's offerings, further the parts can > >> be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > >> controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > >> when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > >> generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > >> coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > >> extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > >> > >> seer > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15120|15108|2007-10-24 19:23:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 10:53:00PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > As all the old saws go.."To each his own", "Whatever > floats your boat"..."To thine own self be true"..and Ricky Nelson's.. > "You can't please everybody..you gotta please yourself" :) > > (or something close to that, Where's Ben when you need him :) [grin] I don't have that one in my quote file, but - http://rickynelson.lyrics.info/gardenparty.html `` But it's all right now I learned my lesson well You see, ya can't please everyone So ya got to please yourself '' > Oh > that's right, he's just a few miles from my boat! LOL. Heh. Small world, this. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15121|15108|2007-10-24 20:15:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|I agree, there is no free lunch. Usually if something is too good to be true, it is too good to be true. The interesting thing with the air car is that the motor turns into the air compressor at night so you have no need for a separate air source. It is probably a few years away before we get anythng really practical for a boat unless you can plug into the dock every night. The big advantage over electric is an accumulator tank would probably last at least 10 years or more (that is the usual time-life on an aircraft) without all the space and weight of batteries. An accumulator tank if made from spun kevlar doesn't explode....it splits and leaks instead. They have been in use on aircraft for many years. I am sure the cost of the accumulators and motors would go down if they started making them for cars. Tata in India is starting to do it and it will be interesting to see how they do. I am a little sceptical as well about the electric-drive boats, however. I think people are way too optimistic about how long their batteries will last. There is a huge amount of BS written about batteries. I was considering it for my dream boat so did a lot of my own research and I found that when you do the economics it doesn't make sense unless you make everything electric...i.e. you were going to have a generator and run it a lot anyway. On the up side, there are new motors coming out all the time and there is a lot of incentive and research when oil is over $80 a barrel. It is a few more years before I build again, if at all, so I am happy to let you and everyone else work it out for me:). I don't mind being proved wrong, and what the hell, it is fun to experiment. I wish I was in your position so please let us know how it all works out. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:08:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Auxillary Electric Drive something still has to compress all that air..and unlike a compressed liquid, when you have a compressed gas, you've got a potential bomb. Though, assuming you can keep the type of mechanical seal on somekind of pump to create the high pressure air holding tank before feeding it into the air motor, I can see where it might work, but compare a steam engine to a comparable power electric motor and I would think the space/weight ratios would favor the little 8hp pancake DC motor and batteries which I have to have anyway. Worth considering, but for all my other electrical usages on a boat, at the moment I think the dc setup is a reasonable way for me to proceed. seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Seer, > > Before you jump on the electic wagon you should check out the very, very interesting things happening with air motors. > > http://www.gizmag. com/go/7000/ > > http://www.engineai r.com.au/ airmotor. htm > > Too me, it makes more sense for the future. It would be great to get rid of heavy, expensive, limited-life batteries that are bad for the environment. > > I apologize if I am sending you off on a tangent..... ;) > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:08:21 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Auxillary Electric Drive > > After talking it over with a marine mechanic, I've convinced him that > my idea to slap an 8 to 15 hp DC electric motor onto the prop shaft > aft the transmission utilizing a clutch and pulley arrangment, is > actually going to work. The reason I want to do this is two fold. > First, my boat will be having substantial electric capability, > including a wind gen, water gen, some solar panels, and a diesel > genset, along with a substantial battery bank. Second, what screws up > diesel engines most after bad fuel, is running under too light a > load..sooo, having a small electric motor available to handle the > 'piddly' stuff like manuevering around a dock, (instant forward and > reverse transition without the transmission *clunk* works too:), seems > a really good idea, not to mention the opportunity to dial up some > 'extra' silent *wind* in light airs-making 'motorsailing' a heck of a > lot more satisfying:) as I suspect you won't even be able to hear the > machinery in this boat. > > Unfortunately most everyone wants an arm and a leg for their products, > however, these guys are getting very good reviews with their cobbled > together system using off the shelf commercial parts. :) > > http://www.thunders truck-ev. com/sailboatkit. htm > > If you will recall, I had been previously planning a much larger > installation because of my desire to do the major canals and rivers in > Europe, and needed the capability to go to hull speed though I wasn't > likely to use it except on very rare occasions. However, with the 85hp > diesel that's no longer a problem, so I can use just enough electric > power to ghost me along at 3 to 4 knots which I think is close to the > speed limit anyway :) Plus it will make those evening harbor jaunts on > windless moonlit evenings the next best thing to silent sailing:) > > In any event, this price seems pretty reasonable to me, especially > after you price out the competition' s offerings, further the parts can > be located and purchased pretty much anywhere. Lastly, the bigger > controller has you set up from the get go for regenerative sailing > when you've got more wind that you need :) Every watt saved or > generated from wind/sea/or sun means less fuel consumed and man, at > coming up on $4.00 a gallon for diesel, the money saved, and the > extension to range under power seem a fair tradeoff. > > seer > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15122|15122|2007-10-24 21:47:44|Gary Prebble|Have you "been there"|I have not faced these conditions as yet. But for those who have what would you do in this situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKusg6Jyc9Y| 15123|15122|2007-10-24 23:08:15|seeratlas|Re: Have you "been there"|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > I have not faced these conditions as yet. But for those who have what > would you do in this situation. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKusg6Jyc9Y > Well I have, and its not a lot of fun. What I did was put up a tiny stormsail on the jumper before the mast, start the engine and run it just enough to keep steerage way on the rudder at the crests when everything was combining to slew the boat around a bit. Engaged the big wagner autopilot and set a course just off 180 degrees from the wave direction. Tossed a big bight of line from the stern bits to serve as a drogue and pulled on my harness and snapped in for a looooooong stretch at the helm. Was at it for about 36 hours or so...like I said, not a lot of fun, unless you like surfing down the faces of big waves :) Those in the vid are pretty short period wise and confused. A real mess. Looks like he was just waiting to broach and roll. Wonder who was taking the film :) seer| 15124|15061|2007-10-25 01:43:46|Aaron Williams|Re: Moving the hull|Hooray ! I got the hull moved today Ended up doing it with a 22 ton PH crane and It was a full load at the angle they had to use for picking. I welded 2 lifting lugs on the aft end and the 2 aft chain plates All SS and no problems with the 11/4" SS bull rails. It did take to 16' straps on the aft end and 2 12' forward still could have used two come alongs. Now I just need a little leveling and I should be able to play on the inside for the winter. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: It's much easier to move manually when both halves are together. There is less surface bearing on the ground and it aint as floppy.Easier sti when the decks are on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > That's pretty much where I stand. How would it work to drag the hull. I move it when it was in 2 halves just did not move it far enough back then. > > Tom wrote: How would you keep it upright on the v without it tipping over to one chine > or the other? Its what 4000lbs or more at this stage with cabin and decks > on. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > > > Dragging is perfectly safe, it sure can't fall anywhere. On a good > > surface , two people can move a 36 hull around by hand. Just lift the > > bow as high as you can, and push it over, The do the same with the > > stern, then bow, etc,etc ,until it is where you want it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> With that much done on the hull it can be slung and moved with crane > > if you > >> dont like the idea of dragging it. cost a bit but safe. > >> Moved my 26 at about the same point you are no problem, very solid. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aaron Williams" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:27 AM > >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Moving the hull > >> > >> > >> > Thanks All > >> > > >> > Dragging it seams like a balancing act at best > >> > I have Most of the hull decks and cabin welded out. I felt I had > > to get > >> > that much done before the first snow here, Cause it might never go > > away. > >> > Was going to try to build and install the a wood stove after I get > > the > >> > boat moved. > >> > Aaron > >> > > >> > brentswain38 wrote: > >> > Once the side decks are on with some good 4 inch tacks , > > it can > >> > be > >> > dragged with comealongs,or whatever. > >> > I once dropped a 36 footer 8 ft at that stage. No dammage > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I need to move my hull over from the property line by 10 feet. > >> >> > >> >> At what point in construction does the boat become safe to pick > > up and > >> >> move. I was not ready to put the Keels on yet. But was thinking > > that I > >> >> would build a stand like Evan did for M.O.B. While I had the > > crane here. > >> >> 25 deg.F and snowing this morning. > >> >> Aaron > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15125|15122|2007-10-25 02:37:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Have you "been there"|I have been there more than once....it reminds me of the passes in Hawaii. A short 15 to20 foot sea is not uncommon when the trade winds get up and funnel between the islands. It's no fun and you have to be there to believe it. Those waves are quite steep so I would be quite concerned if I took one of those waves directly from the side. The yacht shown is yawing quite a bit and would be much safer if she kept straighter to the waves. With Brent's boats having such a large skeg they tend to go more like an arrow if you keep a little speed up. I have also hove-to in similar conditions. I have never felt out of control or unsafe in my 36....just sick and miserable:). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Prebble To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:47:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Have you "been there" I have not faced these conditions as yet. But for those who have what would you do in this situation. http://www.youtube com/watch? v=NKusg6Jyc9Y __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15126|15108|2007-10-25 08:47:56|audeojude|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|> the "stove" I have in mind can be set up to cook an entire meal at > once up on deck in a fraction of the time it takes in a normal oven. > Does a full T'bone, baked potatoe, veggies, etc. in about 8 minutes, > is portable, can sit in prefashioned mounts just about anywhere, and > is easier to clean/service than any I've ever seen. Plus, it can be > used as a perfectly acceptable serving dish :) hehehe. Sure opens up > possibilities in the galley. What stove is this? > > Anyway, add one or two big inverters and I should be good to go for > everything except european 240 which I havn't completely thought out > yet. I'm considering just wiring a completely separate and isolated > system for that, as other than for shore power in those places that > have it, I would just get a 240 to 120 unit.. that way you can plug in over there if needed but don't have to rewire any of your interior electrical etc.... Actually they make them that are convertible from US to EU current at a flip of a switch... so you don't even need multiple outside plugins.. just a cable adapter. > seer > | 15127|15108|2007-10-25 09:02:32|audeojude|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|I have talked to a few people that have installed electric motors on their sailboats. One in particular I'm thinking about got one of the r-e-power.com pods and put it on bottom of boat.. his normal usage is a bit different than what you would think... he said that over time as he got used to the system they started using it at very low power almost all the time when going to windward. Just enough to give the boat an extra half to one knot speed... not to go faster per say but to move apparent wind forward and to be able to point better. according to him on his boat it only pulled 10 amps or so to get enough power to move the apparent wind forward... which gave them a tremendous range with his battery bank. He said doing this was nothing short of awesome in light winds. I guess you could call it synergistic sailing. Also at those low power levels it was impossible to tell it was on. utterly silent so it didn't interfere with the experience. :) lol as someone else said.. what a temptation when racing :) EG scott > don't like slatting around going nowhere in 3 knots of wind either, > well...the ability to dial up some near silent extra 'wind' thru > electrics makes sense to me. Especially when the motive power behind > it can be regenerated to a substantial extent by a number of methods > NOT requiring firing up the big 'D". I like the self sufficiency side > of being able to generate my own motive force in the absence of wind. | 15128|15108|2007-10-25 12:07:33|seeratlas|Re: alternative to std marine oven|Here's a site showing the latest versions of these things. http://www.amazon.com/Sunpentown-SO-2000-Super-Turbo-Oven/dp/B0001NYJP8 The one I have is a "Galloping Gourmet" from years and years ago. I had one on the Falcon for something like six years, never a single failure. Course you need 120 or a big inverter. On the falcon I used to run the generator while cooking as often I had six to ten people on board to eat and had pretty much everything running at once :) The falcon was entirely electric, everything on it, windlass to microwave etc. Perhaps it was because my brother either did or supervised the installs, but in the entire ten years or so I had her, only had one electrical failure, corrosion in a pissant incandescent interior light mount. seer oh, these stoves cook like bandits. If you havn't tried one, you won't believe it, period. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > > > the "stove" I have in mind can be set up to cook an entire meal at > > once up on deck in a fraction of the time it takes in a normal oven. > > Does a full T'bone, baked potatoe, veggies, etc. in about 8 minutes, > > is portable, can sit in prefashioned mounts just about anywhere, and > > is easier to clean/service than any I've ever seen. Plus, it can be > > used as a perfectly acceptable serving dish :) hehehe. Sure opens up > > possibilities in the galley. > What stove is this? > > > > > Anyway, add one or two big inverters and I should be good to go for > > everything except european 240 which I havn't completely thought out > > yet. I'm considering just wiring a completely separate and isolated > > system for that, as other than for shore power in those places that > > have it, > > I would just get a 240 to 120 unit.. that way you can plug in over > there if needed but don't have to rewire any of your interior > electrical etc.... Actually they make them that are convertible from > US to EU current at a flip of a switch... so you don't even need > multiple outside plugins.. just a cable adapter. > > > seer > > > | 15129|15108|2007-10-25 13:06:45|seeratlas|Re: Auxillary Electric Drive|:) yeah, it does work, you get 'induced' airflow which actually gives you more lift etc. so it is a synergistic thing :) On my setup, with an existing big 3blade prop dragging in the water, I should ALSO get 1/3 to 1/2 a knot just by turning that drag into the slightest push. Above that, gravy city:) so yeah, the temptation to dial up to cruise speed regardless of what the weather is doing would be 'HIGH':) Tho I don't race, it would be fun to raise some eyebrows in the std. racer/cruiser fleet as you silently 'motorsail' by..leaving no clue ... LOL. Just raise the glass in salute and act as if all is well in the world :) LOL. With my funky airplane wing rig, it should make for some lively conversation around the yacht club post race parties LOL>:) In any event, turning 3 knots of slatting about into 5 of making decent time would up the "fun" factor a lot. These pancake electrics are pretty simple too, er one moving part.. :) I'll let you know how it all works out in a few months. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > I have talked to a few people that have installed electric motors on > their sailboats. One in particular I'm thinking about got one of the > r-e-power.com pods and put it on bottom of boat.. > > his normal usage is a bit different than what you would think... he > said that over time as he got used to the system they started using it > at very low power almost all the time when going to windward. Just > enough to give the boat an extra half to one knot speed... not to go > faster per say but to move apparent wind forward and to be able to > point better. according to him on his boat it only pulled 10 amps or > so to get enough power to move the apparent wind forward... which gave > them a tremendous range with his battery bank. > > He said doing this was nothing short of awesome in light winds. I > guess you could call it synergistic sailing. Also at those low power > levels it was impossible to tell it was on. utterly silent so it > didn't interfere with the experience. > > :) lol > as someone else said.. what a temptation when racing :) EG > scott > > > > don't like slatting around going nowhere in 3 knots of wind either, > > well...the ability to dial up some near silent extra 'wind' thru > > electrics makes sense to me. Especially when the motive power behind > > it can be regenerated to a substantial extent by a number of methods > > NOT requiring firing up the big 'D". I like the self sufficiency side > > of being able to generate my own motive force in the absence of wind. > | 15130|15130|2007-10-25 16:13:18|seeratlas|Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? Anyone else familiar with these things? seer| 15131|15061|2007-10-25 17:07:38|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Moving the hull|Aaron Williams wrote: > Hooray ! I got the hull moved today Ended up doing it with a 22 ton PH crane and It was a full load at the angle they had to use for picking. I welded 2 lifting lugs on the aft end and the 2 aft chain plates All SS and no problems with the 11/4" SS bull rails. > It did take to 16' straps on the aft end and 2 12' forward still could have used two come alongs. Now I just need a little leveling and I should be able to play on the inside for the winter. > > Aaron > Congrats! Glad it went well for you... going to be finished by next summer? :-) Bruce -- Bruce Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 15132|15132|2007-10-25 19:07:05|seeratlas|Gen sets prices...WHOA!|What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are insane LOL. seer| 15133|15130|2007-10-25 20:12:43|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|When I was invilved in recreational gold dredging we could find used ones for under $100 and new toping out at $250. They are oiles with teflon parts so you don't breath oil vaper. Use new hose that has not been hocked to a compresor that is oil lubricated. The regulator is around $150 for low presure. If there is a prospectors shop in your area they can hook you up. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? > Anyone else familiar with these things? > seer > | 15134|15132|2007-10-25 20:28:37|Harry James|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm using his battery bank as an accumulator. Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a niche market currently going unfulfilled. HJ seeratlas wrote: > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > insane LOL. > > seer > > > | 15135|15132|2007-10-25 20:54:48|Wesley Cox|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|How insane? I have a Generac with Briggs and Stratton, made it Wisconsin, supposed to be solid good stuff by reputation, 5500 W continuous that I paid $550 for about 5 years ago. I don't run it much but it sat for 2 years with most of the gas emptied but not treated (bad I know, but very busy was I and I moved) and it started on the first pull. I did do some welding with it, though, after moving, before I set myself up with 240 volt line power and it sucked down the fuel. I was not impressed with that. I haven't gotten around to making a direct drive portable welder a la Brent Swain but I have a pile of motors waiting to choose from for that project. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are insane LOL. seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release Date: 10/25/2007 1:14 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15136|15132|2007-10-25 22:17:51|Paul Wilson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|My thoughts... I agree with you, running a battery charger off an AC generator makes no sense. I disagree about using a DC generator, however. It's better to just use a regular alternator. AC and high voltage always makes more sense when you are talking about transfer of power since the current is less. Lower current means less voltage drop for a given conductor so you gain smaller wires and greater efficiency. If you think about it, it always starts as AC inside the generator or alternator anyway. DC gens were much larger and heavier than alternators and had brushes and commutators which wore out. If you are running a generator at 800 rpm, you will probably have problems with the motor running too slow but loaded all the time. It seems like a lot of fuss to be only be putting out 10 amps. I would rather run for only one hour and pump out 100 amps than run 10 hours at 10 amps or have a couple of extra solar panels. I have known some cruisers who turn on their little red honda generator and then leave their boat while it runs all day. Some actually let them run all night. It's a great way to ruin a nice peaceful anchorage. My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. I just bought a rebuild kit for it and cleaned it up. Quite often the only difference with a marine alternator is the screen spark arrester. There is no need for one with diesel. If you want more amps than 100 amps, the higher output alternators are rewound with smaller wires to get higher output but damn they are expensive. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Harry James To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:29:45 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm using his battery bank as an accumulator. Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a niche market currently going unfulfilled. HJ seeratlas wrote: > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > insane LOL. > > seer > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15137|15132|2007-10-25 22:21:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Easy answer.....I can't fit one in the boat so the decision is made for me ;). Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:07:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are insane LOL. seer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15138|15130|2007-10-25 22:27:34|seeratlas|Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|I've got a brother near prospector country in California, I'll have him take a look around. :) Thanks seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > When I was invilved in recreational gold dredging we could find used > ones for under $100 and new toping out at $250. They are oiles with > teflon parts so you don't breath oil vaper. Use new hose that has not > been hocked to a compresor that is oil lubricated. The regulator is > around $150 for low presure. If there is a prospectors shop in your > area they can hook you up. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? > > Anyone else familiar with these things? > > seer > > > | 15139|15132|2007-10-25 22:36:24|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I'm thinking that given the 6k US and up for 5.5 diesel gensets, perhaps my best bet is to find a suitably sized diesel engine, put a copy of my DC electric drive motor on it, and drive that into the battery bank. Then just rig up a big butt inverter and be done with it. I mean, come on, lol, 6700 for a 5kw genset? and that's the cheapie LOL. The advantage of that would be that I could almost drive enough into the battery bank to counter using the electric drive wide open. I've got a little honda for emergencies :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > insane LOL. > > > > seer > > > > > > > | 15140|15132|2007-10-25 22:37:57|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I'm talking marine diesel genset, for 5.6kw up to about 8kw we're talking between 6700 and ten grand. :)seems a bit over the top to me LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > How insane? I have a Generac with Briggs and Stratton, made it Wisconsin, supposed to be solid good stuff by reputation, 5500 W continuous that I paid $550 for about 5 years ago. I don't run it much but it sat for 2 years with most of the gas emptied but not treated (bad I know, but very busy was I and I moved) and it started on the first pull. > > I did do some welding with it, though, after moving, before I set myself up with 240 volt line power and it sucked down the fuel. I was not impressed with that. I haven't gotten around to making a direct drive portable welder a la Brent Swain but I have a pile of motors waiting to choose from for that project. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > insane LOL. > > seer > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release Date: 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15141|15132|2007-10-25 22:43:29|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|-Paul, I agree on the alternator and have located a guy who'll cook me up a couple for the 85hp main, but for times when I'm not going anywhere, I'd like to be able to fire up a HEAVILY insulated (sound/heat the works) diesel genset to take care of the electrical chores. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > My thoughts... > > I agree with you, running a battery charger off an AC generator makes no sense. I disagree about using a DC generator, however. It's better to just use a regular alternator. > > AC and high voltage always makes more sense when you are talking about transfer of power since the current is less. Lower current means less voltage drop for a given conductor so you gain smaller wires and greater efficiency. If you think about it, it always starts as AC inside the generator or alternator anyway. DC gens were much larger and heavier than alternators and had brushes and commutators which wore out. > > If you are running a generator at 800 rpm, you will probably have problems with the motor running too slow but loaded all the time. It seems like a lot of fuss to be only be putting out 10 amps. I would rather run for only one hour and pump out 100 amps than run 10 hours at 10 amps or have a couple of extra solar panels. I have known some cruisers who turn on their little red honda generator and then leave their boat while it runs all day. Some actually let them run all night. It's a great way to ruin a nice peaceful anchorage. > > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. I just bought a rebuild kit for it and cleaned it up. Quite often the only difference with a marine alternator is the screen spark arrester. There is no need for one with diesel. If you want more amps than 100 amps, the higher output alternators are rewound with smaller wires to get higher output but damn they are expensive. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Harry James > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:29:45 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > insane LOL. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15142|15132|2007-10-25 23:42:18|Harry James|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I was not communicating well, instead of DC Generator what I meant was us an Alternator instead of an AC Generator. I don't even know where you would get a DC Generator. Paul Wilson wrote: > My thoughts... > > I agree with you, running a battery charger off an AC generator makes no sense. I disagree about using a DC generator, however. It's better to just use a regular alternator. > > AC and high voltage always makes more sense when you are talking about transfer of power since the current is less. Lower current means less voltage drop for a given conductor so you gain smaller wires and greater efficiency. If you think about it, it always starts as AC inside the generator or alternator anyway. DC gens were much larger and heavier than alternators and had brushes and commutators which wore out. > > If you are running a generator at 800 rpm, you will probably have problems with the motor running too slow but loaded all the time. It seems like a lot of fuss to be only be putting out 10 amps. I would rather run for only one hour and pump out 100 amps than run 10 hours at 10 amps or have a couple of extra solar panels. I have known some cruisers who turn on their little red honda generator and then leave their boat while it runs all day. Some actually let them run all night. It's a great way to ruin a nice peaceful anchorage. > > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. I just bought a rebuild kit for it and cleaned it up. Quite often the only difference with a marine alternator is the screen spark arrester. There is no need for one with diesel. If you want more amps than 100 amps, the higher output alternators are rewound with smaller wires to get higher output but damn they are expensive. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Harry James > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:29:45 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > >> What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp >> alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are >> insane LOL. >> >> seer >> >> >> >> > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15143|15132|2007-10-25 23:43:24|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|My pancake motor when driven becomes a dc generator. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > I was not communicating well, instead of DC Generator what I meant was > us an Alternator instead of an AC Generator. I don't even know where you > would get a DC Generator. > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > My thoughts... > > > > I agree with you, running a battery charger off an AC generator makes no sense. I disagree about using a DC generator, however. It's better to just use a regular alternator. > > > > AC and high voltage always makes more sense when you are talking about transfer of power since the current is less. Lower current means less voltage drop for a given conductor so you gain smaller wires and greater efficiency. If you think about it, it always starts as AC inside the generator or alternator anyway. DC gens were much larger and heavier than alternators and had brushes and commutators which wore out. > > > > If you are running a generator at 800 rpm, you will probably have problems with the motor running too slow but loaded all the time. It seems like a lot of fuss to be only be putting out 10 amps. I would rather run for only one hour and pump out 100 amps than run 10 hours at 10 amps or have a couple of extra solar panels. I have known some cruisers who turn on their little red honda generator and then leave their boat while it runs all day. Some actually let them run all night. It's a great way to ruin a nice peaceful anchorage. > > > > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. I just bought a rebuild kit for it and cleaned it up. Quite often the only difference with a marine alternator is the screen spark arrester. There is no need for one with diesel. If you want more amps than 100 amps, the higher output alternators are rewound with smaller wires to get higher output but damn they are expensive. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Harry James > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:29:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you > > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of > > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > > > HJ > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > >> What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > >> alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > >> insane LOL. > >> > >> seer > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15144|15132|2007-10-26 00:51:29|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Any perm mag motor can be spun to generate DC. A alternator puts out 3 phase AcC and the diodes make it into DC. The thing to remember iswhen you convert from AC to DC and then back to AC there are a lot of losses all the way around. Power into the battery needs to be regulated to protect the batteries. The good part is batteries are balest but need to be sealed in a box that is force vented to the outside when charging even sealed batteries. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > I was not communicating well, instead of DC Generator what I meant was > us an Alternator instead of an AC Generator. I don't even know where you > would get a DC Generator. > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > My thoughts... > > > > I agree with you, running a battery charger off an AC generator makes no sense. I disagree about using a DC generator, however. It's better to just use a regular alternator. > > > > AC and high voltage always makes more sense when you are talking about transfer of power since the current is less. Lower current means less voltage drop for a given conductor so you gain smaller wires and greater efficiency. If you think about it, it always starts as AC inside the generator or alternator anyway. DC gens were much larger and heavier than alternators and had brushes and commutators which wore out. > > > > If you are running a generator at 800 rpm, you will probably have problems with the motor running too slow but loaded all the time. It seems like a lot of fuss to be only be putting out 10 amps. I would rather run for only one hour and pump out 100 amps than run 10 hours at 10 amps or have a couple of extra solar panels. I have known some cruisers who turn on their little red honda generator and then leave their boat while it runs all day. Some actually let them run all night. It's a great way to ruin a nice peaceful anchorage. > > > > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. I just bought a rebuild kit for it and cleaned it up. Quite often the only difference with a marine alternator is the screen spark arrester. There is no need for one with diesel. If you want more amps than 100 amps, the higher output alternators are rewound with smaller wires to get higher output but damn they are expensive. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Harry James > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:29:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If you > > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. Most of > > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > > > HJ > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > >> What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > >> alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > >> insane LOL. > >> > >> seer > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15145|15130|2007-10-26 01:10:22|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|We have make over 100 dives using a hooka system from www.airlinebyjsink.com?? We can dive 4 people all day on $3 worth of gas. Never had any problems except for when we were in really heavy chop.? The engine stalled when it was constantly pitched over 50 degrees.? Leaving it in the boat would have solved that problem.? Just love diving shallow with it as only a weight belt and spare air bottle is needed.? --Doug J -----Original Message----- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 7:12 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol When I was invilved in recreational gold dredging we could find used ones for under $100 and new toping out at $250. They are oiles with teflon parts so you don't breath oil vaper. Use new hose that has not been hocked to a compresor that is oil lubricated. The regulator is around $150 for low presure. If there is a prospectors shop in your area they can hook you up. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? > Anyone else familiar with these things? > seer > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15146|15146|2007-10-26 01:53:45|mickeyolaf|Folding Maststeps|Anybody have any experience/comments on the ABI folding maststeps, cast aluminum, 13 oz each, 500 lb breaking strength. I've seen them as low as $11 to a high of $29. In Canada they are $15. Do they rattle? Whistle? Not work? Too much weight aloft? The 1/2 triangle type of maststep are lighter but there is the potential to slip thru them and have a caught foot. I was thinking the folding steps and a bosuns chair combo would be the safest stairway aloft. The English brand called "Mastwalkers" is 17 British Pounds each ex VAT. ABI copied them and halved the price. How many of u use maststeps?| 15147|15132|2007-10-26 06:53:26|audeojude|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Seer, part of your answer is looking you in the face. your already attaching a generator to the shaft of your boat. :) it wouldn't work at anchor as your turning your prop at same time but you have a seriously high output generator when motoring with the diesel. just engage the clutch.. for at anchor? well you could do a couple of clutches to leave the prop not turning when running the engine at anchor and turn the electric motor as a generator. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'm thinking that given the 6k US and up for 5.5 diesel gensets, > perhaps my best bet is to find a suitably sized diesel engine, put a > copy of my DC electric drive motor on it, and drive that into the > battery bank. Then just rig up a big butt inverter and be done with > it. I mean, come on, lol, 6700 for a 5kw genset? and that's the > cheapie LOL. The advantage of that would be that I could almost drive > enough into the battery bank to counter using the electric drive wide > open. I've got a little honda for emergencies :) > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a boat? > > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the AC hz > > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can buy a > > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If > you > > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. > Most of > > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there is a > > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > > > HJ > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > > insane LOL. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15148|15132|2007-10-26 07:43:21|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|There are still some chinese 6KW diesel generators that sell on ebay for less than $1000. The one I bought to use for backup at home uses what appears to be a more or less exact copy of one of the Yanmar single cylinder industrial engines and even has electric start. As shipped it's got a little tiny lawn mower style muffler and is kind of loud, But given it's turning at a fixed RPM could get a lot quieter with a resonant exhaust system in a permanent installation. They also seem to sell an enclosed quiet version. Dale seeratlas wrote: > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > insane LOL. > > seer > > | 15149|15132|2007-10-26 09:09:25|khooper_fboats|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. > The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I > think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. The Dodge 3500 series pickups and vans w/ 5.9 liter engine (back in the day we called it the "360", you remember) comes standard w/ Bosch 135-amp alternator. They are very robust and last forever. Lots in junkyards. The Dodge 4500 series had an optional 220-amp alternator available though these would be much harder to find in a yard.| 15150|15146|2007-10-26 12:51:06|seeratlas|Re: Folding Maststeps|When it was just me, I always used a bosun's chair and climbing equipment so I could wrap my legs around the mast and forego simulating a tetherball. When someone else was around to help, I had them use the halyard winch while I used my bosun's chair and climbing gear and wrapped my legs around the mast to avoid simulating a tetherball... :) I failed to wrap my legs around once....that was enough.. :) seer. The problem with folding steps is that when folded they have to REALLY be secure with no edges to catch a flailing halyard or pendant which would pull them open, then certainly foul your halyard etc. If they won't stay good and closed in a storm you can have a big problem real fast. I suspect Brent has a lot to say about this because he designed his own steps which are described and pictured in his book. In the end, I decided against steps of any kind as I didn't trust my stick to begin with lol. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Anybody have any experience/comments on the ABI folding maststeps, > cast aluminum, 13 oz each, 500 lb breaking strength. I've seen them as > low as $11 to a high of $29. In Canada they are $15. > Do they rattle? Whistle? Not work? Too much weight aloft? > The 1/2 triangle type of maststep are lighter but there is the > potential to slip thru them and have a caught foot. I was thinking the > folding steps and a bosuns chair combo would be the safest stairway > aloft. > The English brand called "Mastwalkers" is 17 British Pounds each ex > VAT. ABI copied them and halved the price. > How many of u use maststeps? > | 15151|15132|2007-10-26 12:58:43|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|You are of course correct :) but I'm thinking more along the lines of what if...1. no wind..2. main quits, 3. how do i keep charging my electric as I ghost along...? Since the motors are relatively cheap having at least one spare is a given. If that could be attached to a separate small diesel (my engine room is full width of the boat and about seven or eight inches over my head when i'm sitting up down there) then I could toss dc into the battery bank 'buffer' (as was properly pointed out :) and turn the boat into a low powered diesel/electric rig. With my 250 gallons of fuel onboard, and a say 10 or 11hp diesel turning the motor acting as a generator, I figure I'd have some hellacious 'get home' range at 3 or 4 knots. I'm guessing I can get a good rebuilt watercooled 10hp diesel and the motor for one heck of alot less than 7k US. Which would leave alot of money left over for a couple of good sized inverters. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Seer, > part of your answer is looking you in the face. your already attaching > a generator to the shaft of your boat. :) it wouldn't work at anchor > as your turning your prop at same time but you have a seriously high > output generator when motoring with the diesel. just engage the > clutch.. for at anchor? well you could do a couple of clutches to > leave the prop not turning when running the engine at anchor and turn > the electric motor as a generator. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I'm thinking that given the 6k US and up for 5.5 diesel gensets, > > perhaps my best bet is to find a suitably sized diesel engine, put a > > copy of my DC electric drive motor on it, and drive that into the > > battery bank. Then just rig up a big butt inverter and be done with > > it. I mean, come on, lol, 6700 for a 5kw genset? and that's the > > cheapie LOL. The advantage of that would be that I could almost drive > > enough into the battery bank to counter using the electric drive wide > > open. I've got a little honda for emergencies :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > > > > > Does any body but me think its wiser to have a DC generator on a > boat? > > > The primary use of the generator is to charge batteries. You have a > > > generator that has to turn at a fixed (and fast) RPM so that the > AC hz > > > is steady. You then convert that AC to DC with a charger. You can > buy a > > > small 3-5 hp kubota powered DC alternator, crank it down to 800 RPM's > > > where you can't even hear it and let it run for a bunch of hours. If > > you > > > need AC use a inverter. There is a guy who lived in a remote setup at > > > Cape Yakataga, ran one for 5 years at about a 10 amp output 800 rpm > > > using his battery bank as an accumulator. > > > > > > Take a look at that little Honda generator. It is an alternator that > > > runs an inverter so you can have AC to run your battery charger. > > Most of > > > these small "generators" have a DC output so you can charge a battery > > > but it is usually at reduced wattage. The first manufacturer Honda or > > > Yamaha or Briggs that figures out that there is a marine market for a > > > strictly DC version of these generators is going to find out there > is a > > > niche market currently going unfulfilled. > > > > > > HJ > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > > > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > > > insane LOL. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15152|15132|2007-10-26 13:00:19|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I'll have to look into that, thanks :) Do you have any information on whether parts are available at reasonable cost? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dale J. Robertson" wrote: > > There are still some chinese 6KW diesel generators that sell on ebay for > less than $1000. The one I bought to use for backup at home uses what > appears to be a more or less exact copy of one of the Yanmar single > cylinder industrial engines and even has electric start. As shipped it's > got a little tiny lawn mower style muffler and is kind of loud, But > given it's turning at a fixed RPM could get a lot quieter with a > resonant exhaust system in a permanent installation. They also seem to > sell an enclosed quiet version. > Dale > > seeratlas wrote: > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > insane LOL. > > > > seer > > > > > | 15153|15132|2007-10-26 13:01:42|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|That sounds like a deal :) Thanks I'll go see if I can find two or three :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > My 100 amp alternator was $25 dollars out of an auto wreckers. > > The high output alternators are getting harder to find....I > > think it came out of a Lincoln Continental. > > The Dodge 3500 series pickups and vans w/ 5.9 liter engine (back in > the day we called it the "360", you remember) comes standard w/ Bosch > 135-amp alternator. They are very robust and last forever. Lots in > junkyards. > > The Dodge 4500 series had an optional 220-amp alternator available > though these would be much harder to find in a yard. > | 15154|15132|2007-10-26 14:46:42|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Painting your inner skeg...|Hi Folks, I was wondering what the prescription is for painting the inside of a skeg used as a coolant reservoir. I'll have a Devoe 302 primer. What have people used in the past with success? I guess it is a question of compatibility of paint and coolant. Cheers Paul| 15155|15132|2007-10-26 15:36:03|Tom|Re: Painting your inner skeg...|Hey Paul As far as I know nothing no paint, keep your coolant up to par and it shouldnt rust. No way to get a good paint job inside after welding on and cutting for prop Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Painting your inner skeg... > Hi Folks, > > I was wondering what the prescription is for painting the inside of a skeg > used as > a coolant reservoir. I'll have a Devoe 302 primer. What have people used > in the > past with success? I guess it is a question of compatibility of paint and > coolant. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15156|15156|2007-10-26 18:09:39|seeratlas|Here's one for the hi and dry bilgekeel guys :)|http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?skunum=37042&reviewID=9664&helpful=1#cr1 man, for a liveaboard who dries out LOL. Tho I suppose even the deep keelers could set it up on a solid dock :) seer| 15157|15157|2007-10-26 21:24:22|Tom|Lead is in|Hello All Got all the lead in today, poured in about 1200 lbs and stacked one layer of bricks between pours witch was only 3 bricks. droped the bow of the boat so I could pour it in level and now the boats up level and I have a good fall to the back of keel for the sump. I didnt pour through the side of the keel, I made a pot with swivel handle, melted about 150 lbs at a time then use the little crane on my truck and brought it down through companion way and dumped it in. Worked good, didnt warp keel and didnt even singe the primer on the outside. Took about 6 hours once I was setup. No room for batteries above ballast, ended up 5" from top of keel and then 3" to bottom of floor, cant fit 10" into 8". Tommorrow I will work on capping the lead with 10 gage plate and get her sealed up . Gee seer look at alll the fun your missing 'ha ha' Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15158|15146|2007-10-26 21:45:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Folding Maststeps|On Fri, Oct 26, 2007 at 04:51:03PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > When it was just me, I always used a bosun's chair and climbing > equipment so I could wrap my legs around the mast and forego > simulating a tetherball. When someone else was around to help, I had > them use the halyard winch while I used my bosun's chair and climbing > gear and wrapped my legs around the mast to avoid simulating a > tetherball... :) > > I failed to wrap my legs around once....that was enough.. > :) I used to do pretty well by going up the front of the mast, using one of the halyards to carry the load if someone else was cranking, or as a belay line if I was climbing by myself (I'd stop every few feet and shorten it up at the shackle on my harness; that way, I'd only drop a couple of feet max if I slipped.) I used the other halyard, which I stretched tight and cleated off, as the "swing preventer" (it ran through another shackle on the harness.) Losing my grip (did that once) was a matter of saying "ouch" rather than a trip to the hospital. :) These days, I'm lazier than I used to be - I installed mast steps a couple of years back. I still use a belay line when I go up, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15159|15159|2007-10-27 00:23:54|seeratlas|"we got nothing to worry about, that there''s superglass"....|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fQ1eWv36o :) seer it can get rough out there... :)| 15160|15157|2007-10-27 09:50:36|seeratlas|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Gee seer look at alll the fun your missing 'ha ha' > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > LOL :) Trust me, I'm setting up for enough "fun" to keep me busy for some time..disassemble, grind, sand, primer, paint, foam reassemble.."NEXT" :) hehehe. Gotta build either a radio mast, or an arch for the stern, a couple of boom crutches, and figure out what to do about lifelines, find and install the genset, figure out the plumbing for the engine and genset exhaust and inlets, etc. etc. etc. Even as complete as this boat is, my 'to do' list is a mile long LOL. Since I have basically four robust midline scuppers on each side, (see photo in Files section, (Seer's 44 Schooner)I was wondering if maybe I could rig up a set of steel poles as sheerlegs that basically hook into the scuppers from below as the ship settles. Been just 'guestimating' and figured I could make them in pieces and use them to double as a full ship awning frame. They would be roughly ten feet long, so two five piece sections per leg with heave sleeve over joint to strengthen the middle. I have plenty of room to carry them :) Any of you guys used sheerlegs before? I've never had the occasion, but want to be able to dry out anywhere I find a suitable tide and bottom. seer| 15161|22|2007-10-27 09:52:41|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's 44 Schooner/brewer44.jpg Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Brewer in the water You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20%2044%20Schooner/brewer44.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 15162|15157|2007-10-27 11:24:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 01:50:34PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Since I have basically four robust midline scuppers on each side, (see > photo in Files section, (Seer's 44 Schooner)I was wondering if maybe I > could rig up a set of steel poles as sheerlegs that basically hook > into the scuppers from below as the ship settles. You'd want two attachment points per leg (obvious, I know), where you can "lock" each of the points to the boat. On my previous boat, a French Aloa (an OSTAR racer) there was a set of "hard points" for sheerlegs; two holes through the toerails and two solid SS mount points, a sort of an upside-down keyhole shape in each where a matching shape would lock in. I never used them - the boat didn't come with the legs - but the design was a pretty good one. You'd probably want some kind of a wide pad on the lower end of each leg to distribute the load. With Ulysses, my keel is so wide that even when I tried laying the boat over to do some work on the hull, it... sorta didn't happen. :) http://okopnik.com/galleries/Ulysses/large/p9230180.jpg We started referring to Ulysses as "The Weebleboat" after that - 'cause weebles wobble, but they don't fall down... could get her to lay over even with a line abeam and me winching for all I was worth. > Been just > 'guestimating' and figured I could make them in pieces and use them to > double as a full ship awning frame. They would be roughly ten feet > long, so two five piece sections per leg with heave sleeve over joint > to strengthen the middle. I have plenty of room to carry them :) What diameter pipe were you thinking of using? Seems like anything strong enough to be a sheerleg would be a massive affair, way too heavy to wrestle with for awnings and such. Hmm, I'm visualizing two-piece sheerlegs (with a sleeve, as you were saying) stored along the outside of the toerails. Or maybe just using your whisker pole and your spinnaker pole (would they be stromg enough?) for the job; rigging the hardware for that would be pretty easy. > Any of you guys used sheerlegs before? I've never had the occasion, > but want to be able to dry out anywhere I find a suitable tide and bottom. Personally, I tend to avoid places where there's that much tide. They're too far from the equator for my tastes. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15163|15157|2007-10-27 12:54:48|seeratlas|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|Ben, Using some of the ultra high strength steel tubes I mentioned a few weeks ago, I can get hella strong corrosion resistant steel pipe that is roughly half the weight of similarly sized mild steel. If you look at the pictures of the boat in my Files folder, you can see the little davit/boom/crane thing amidships. there are four mounts for that welded into the deck which would be perfect for the bottom of my tent/awning setup :) even if I just used the sections for the vertical part of the awning setup. Would be hell for strong LOL. but you're right. going to have to run some numbers. One guy i knew with a shoal draft keel would look for a nice sandy or caked mud place and dig a big trench for the keel then bring it in as the tide fell and let it ground that way. It's not like you're going to do this like the bilge keel guys, i.e. for months at a time :) Second, also in my folder there under "Schooner.jpg" you'll see Carl's boat with pretty much the same gallant rig I have in place. there ARE no whisker poles , spinnaker poles etc. :) etc. :) hehehe though, I'm toying with the idea of using a couple of these standing leg poles screwed together to form the base of some kind of a downwind light air 'blooper' rig. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 01:50:34PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Since I have basically four robust midline scuppers on each side, (see > > photo in Files section, (Seer's 44 Schooner)I was wondering if maybe I > > could rig up a set of steel poles as sheerlegs that basically hook > > into the scuppers from below as the ship settles. > > You'd want two attachment points per leg (obvious, I know), where you > can "lock" each of the points to the boat. On my previous boat, a French > Aloa (an OSTAR racer) there was a set of "hard points" for sheerlegs; > two holes through the toerails and two solid SS mount points, a sort of > an upside-down keyhole shape in each where a matching shape would lock > in. I never used them - the boat didn't come with the legs - but the > design was a pretty good one. You'd probably want some kind of a wide > pad on the lower end of each leg to distribute the load. > > With Ulysses, my keel is so wide that even when I tried laying the boat > over to do some work on the hull, it... sorta didn't happen. :) > > http://okopnik.com/galleries/Ulysses/large/p9230180.jpg > > We started referring to Ulysses as "The Weebleboat" after that - 'cause > weebles wobble, but they don't fall down... could get her to lay over > even with a line abeam and me winching for all I was worth. > > > Been just > > 'guestimating' and figured I could make them in pieces and use them to > > double as a full ship awning frame. They would be roughly ten feet > > long, so two five piece sections per leg with heave sleeve over joint > > to strengthen the middle. I have plenty of room to carry them :) > > What diameter pipe were you thinking of using? Seems like anything > strong enough to be a sheerleg would be a massive affair, way too heavy > to wrestle with for awnings and such. > > Hmm, I'm visualizing two-piece sheerlegs (with a sleeve, as you were > saying) stored along the outside of the toerails. Or maybe just using > your whisker pole and your spinnaker pole (would they be stromg enough?) > for the job; rigging the hardware for that would be pretty easy. > > > Any of you guys used sheerlegs before? I've never had the occasion, > > but want to be able to dry out anywhere I find a suitable tide and bottom. > > Personally, I tend to avoid places where there's that much tide. They're > too far from the equator for my tastes. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15164|15164|2007-10-27 13:28:39|seeratlas|Anchoring.|the setup:.... All my sailing life I've fallen into the mindset of lunch hook, main anchor, secondary..etc. and finally the big storm anchor you almost never use. Not to mention the kedging anchor, stern anchor and 'backup' anchors etc. :) It has recently occurred to me looking at it from a steel boat perspective, that maybe I've been wrong. The 'pondering'... Since your ground tackle setup including windlass etc. has to be strong enough to handle the biggest anchor you have on the boat anyway.....(otherwise its useless right?)... The Query.... Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? Kicking a BIG one off the roller is no big imposition over kicking the smaller one off...and I doubt that 40 to 50 lb difference at the bow is going to make any meaningful change in the sailing of the boat, especially given that you've removed the other one or two anchors stored up there to somewhere back deeper in the boat... You also are putting the weight into the anchor(where it does the most good) instead of the chain/rode/cable etc. You save money and space by having fewer anchors on board.. And you scare hell out of off course numbnuts inattentive harbor weenies when they finally notice that big plow or similar "ram" pointing at em as they hurry to get out of your way :) LOL. Look at it this way..all those restless nights wondering if you're going to drag, if you've chosen good ground, whether some other less fortunate is going to get loose and come your way threatening to take you up on the beach with him etc..All of these sleep killing stress factors could be eliminated by simply knowing you already have your best *game* on the bottom where it should be :) Your main anchor and a backup for when you might have to cut loose in an emergency and come back and retrieve it later, should handle the whole bit, excepting a combo danforth type for kedging and using as a stern anchor or in conjunction with your 'storm' up forward doing the Y thing. Easy enough to carry some smaller ones for med style stern anchoring etc. where you might want some more lines aft, but for general purposes...I'm beginning to think that instead of digging around for the "big guy" when you see trouble coming,, having him already out and on the bottom in the first place is a lot less stressful and in my old age, i'm really getting into stress avoidance :) but maybe that's just me. I like the idea of calmly sitting in your cockpit, or PH, glass in hand enjoying the show as the curtain goes up on the midnight maritime version of the chinese fire drill as everyone else clambers up on deck into the weather to put out a bigger anchor, while trying to retrieve their dragging 'main' hooks while avoiding entangling everyone else dancing the same dance. Given, if you have a strictly manual windlass, pulling the big one up and down all the time might get old, but with powered gear...hmmm, for the brewer, (where I'm going hydraulic so even a one armed woman can handle the thing), I think I'll just mount the bruiser up front and end of story. am I missing something here? as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts. seer| 15165|15164|2007-10-27 19:27:11|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > the setup:.... > > All my sailing life I've fallen into the mindset of lunch hook, main > anchor, secondary..etc. and finally the big storm anchor you almost > never use. Not to mention the kedging anchor, stern anchor and > 'backup' anchors etc. :) > > It has recently occurred to me looking at it from a steel boat > perspective, that maybe I've been wrong. > > The 'pondering'... > > Since your ground tackle setup including windlass etc. has to be > strong enough to handle the biggest anchor you have on the boat > anyway.....(otherwise its useless right?)... > > The Query.... > > Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? > > Kicking a BIG one off the roller is no big imposition over kicking > the smaller one off...and I doubt that 40 to 50 lb difference at the > bow is going to make any meaningful change in the sailing of the boat, > especially given that you've removed the other one or two anchors > stored up there to somewhere back deeper in the boat... > > You also are putting the weight into the anchor(where it does the most > good) instead of the chain/rode/cable etc. > > You save money and space by having fewer anchors on board.. > > And you scare hell out of off course numbnuts inattentive harbor > weenies when they finally notice that big plow or similar "ram" > pointing at em as they hurry to get out of your way :) > > LOL. Look at it this way..all those restless nights wondering if > you're going to drag, if you've chosen good ground, whether some other > less fortunate is going to get loose and come your way threatening to > take you up on the beach with him etc..All of these sleep killing > stress factors could be eliminated by simply knowing you already have > your best *game* on the bottom where it should be :) > > Your main anchor and a backup for when you might have to cut loose in > an emergency and come back and retrieve it later, should handle the > whole bit, excepting a combo danforth type for kedging and using as a > stern anchor or in conjunction with your 'storm' up forward doing the > Y thing. Easy enough to carry some smaller ones for med style stern > anchoring etc. where you might want some more lines aft, but for > general purposes...I'm beginning to think that instead of digging > around for the "big guy" when you see trouble coming,, having him > already out and on the bottom in the first place is a lot less > stressful and in my old age, i'm really getting into stress avoidance > :) but maybe that's just me. > > I like the idea of calmly sitting in your cockpit, or PH, glass in > hand enjoying the show as the curtain goes up on the midnight maritime > version of the chinese fire drill as everyone else clambers up on > deck into the weather to put out a bigger anchor, while trying to > retrieve their dragging 'main' hooks while avoiding entangling > everyone else dancing the same dance. > > Given, if you have a strictly manual windlass, pulling the big one up > and down all the time might get old, but with powered gear...hmmm, for > the brewer, (where I'm going hydraulic so even a one armed woman can > handle the thing), I think I'll just mount the bruiser up front and > end of story. > > am I missing something here? > > as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts. > > seer > | 15166|15157|2007-10-27 20:11:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 04:54:45PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben, > > Using some of the ultra high strength steel tubes I mentioned a few > weeks ago, I can get hella strong corrosion resistant steel pipe that > is roughly half the weight of similarly sized mild steel. I managed to miss that, somehow. Sounds like great stuff. > Second, also in my folder there under "Schooner.jpg" you'll see Carl's > boat with pretty much the same gallant rig I have in place. there ARE > no whisker poles , spinnaker poles etc. :) etc. :) hehehe though, I'm > toying with the idea of using a couple of these standing leg poles > screwed together to form the base of some kind of a downwind light air > 'blooper' rig. Looking back over the years, I've got to say that I've used my whisker and the spinnaker poles for poling out sails about 5-10% of the time. The rest of it was - oh, you name it: gin pole for standing up my new mainmast (had 4 people standing by, but did it all by myself); lifting the dinghy out of the water in harbors where I didn't feel it was safe to leave it down; helping a friend "pry" his boat out of the rocks after a hurricane in Culebra, etc. Frankly, no matter what kind of a rig I had, I'd find room for at least one spare spar - and would look around for space for a second one. If I had to stick with only one, it would be my nicely adjustable spinnaker pole. Flying a spinnaker is damn near against my religion - I don't even have one on board (don't get me started, or I'll rant for the next hour... although gennakers are all right :) but I like the 14'-20' reach and how stout the thing is. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15167|15146|2007-10-27 20:36:07|Alex Christie|Re: Folding Maststeps|The fixed mast steps on a steel tube mast typical to a Brent boat are really nice and never foul a halyard. If it catches a simple flick of the rope works to free it. steps with angular corners and hard edges don't do so well. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15168|15164|2007-10-27 20:40:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 05:28:36PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > the setup:.... > > All my sailing life I've fallen into the mindset of lunch hook, main > anchor, secondary..etc. and finally the big storm anchor you almost > never use. Not to mention the kedging anchor, stern anchor and > 'backup' anchors etc. :) > > It has recently occurred to me looking at it from a steel boat > perspective, that maybe I've been wrong. > > The 'pondering'... > > Since your ground tackle setup including windlass etc. has to be > strong enough to handle the biggest anchor you have on the boat > anyway.....(otherwise its useless right?)... > > The Query.... > > Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? That - or pretty close to it, anyway - has been my standard practice since, oh, about a month after I started cruising, even though in those days, I was hauling everything by hand. Hurricane Gordon came zooming along the coast at high speed, and I learned, once and for all, that I *HATE* rushing into emergency situations if I can avoid it by a little planning beforehand. Using a big hook with a lot of chain qualifies in that light. I always buy anchors that are one size over what's recommended for a given boat. The last time I used a lunch hook by itself was on my old boat, "Recessional" - it was a Fortress FX-23, which most people would consider as a main anchor for a boat her size. That was literally for a lunch stop at Peter Island, in the British VIs - and that was about 10 years ago. Other than that, I use it as the "inboard" hook on a two-anchor rig, or as one of four anchors for a long-term stay, as now. I have a number of anchors on board (if something lets go in a storm, boats aren't particularly good about accepting excuses like "I'll run to the store for another one - be right back!" :), but as my default anchor, I use the next-to-the-largest one. The largest one is *ridiculously* big [1], and is usually stored in the bilge; it gets used if I'm sitting in a harbor for a long time (like now) or if I have to leave the boat for an extended period in, say, hurricane season. Needless to say, I agree with seer - as you get older, you get to _love_ your windlass. :) Although I still don't trust the electric ones. [1] It's nowhere near as big as some I've seen, though. When I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, hurricanes Luis and Marilyn brushed us (up to 70kt gusts, not too bad.) One of the sailors in the harbor was a Cuban-American ironworker who had built himself a 36' steel boat; his two storm anchors - which he had also built himself, and stored in a neat arrangement in his bilge - were 150 and 250 pounds apiece (he used his mainsheet and topping lift to winch them out.) When a 56' plastic boat dragged down on him during Luis - we were all on the beach, watching the storm whipping the hell out of the harbor - and hung up on his boat, he sorta shrugged, and said "no problem; it'll hold." I helped him untangle the two after it was all over. Whenever a big blow comes along these days, I remember and envy him. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15169|15164|2007-10-27 21:04:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 11:27:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ > > And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at > the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. I hate those damn anchor-test articles. :) Even though I've never played a scientist on TV, I've worked in an environment where we had to design definitive tests, and every time I read one of those things, I want to beat those people senseless with a copy of a "Best Practices" manual, or at least a clue-by-four. They tested in _one_ type of bottom, for a total of four straight-line pulls... does this resemble *any* real-life anchoring scenario??? Some mothers' children, I swear... (I do agree with one statement in that test, though: Bruces aren't worth a damn in a hard sand bottom. If you want to buy Bruces cheap by the dozen, stop in at Georgetown, Bahamas after a hard blow and look for boats that went aground; they'll sell'em cheap. :) In my personal experience, I've found that CQRs hook and hold well in more types of bottom than almost anything else. I carry a couple of Danforth types (a Fortress FX-23 and a little steel one) for heavy weeds and shallow sand over a hard bottom, and a big homemade fisherman for rocks; all the rest of them are CQRs. If you're going to range widely in your cruising, you need to have anchors that will be useful in many different types of bottom, that provide good holding, and that can be stowed where you can retrieve them - rigged and instantly ready to go - in case of problems. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15170|15164|2007-10-27 23:07:47|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|I've always run cqr's and big sob's at that, but I have to tell you, lots of times I had trouble setting them, and on a handful of occasions they would come completely loose when the tide reversed and swung em around. Never really liked them but couldn't find anything consistently better. I might just give one of those hydro's a try, specially with the give it back guarantee. Should only take a few hours to see what it can or cannot do. Oh, and re the test, I thought they tested in four or five different locations, and four tests at each location. I must have read the article wrong. They Hydro has been favorably regarded by a large number of other reviewers two. Expensive sob though LOL. hmmm, maybe a few scrap stainless plates...some sched 40 pvc pipe and ends hehehe.. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 11:27:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ > > > > And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at > > the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. > > I hate those damn anchor-test articles. :) Even though I've never played > a scientist on TV, I've worked in an environment where we had to design > definitive tests, and every time I read one of those things, I want to > beat those people senseless with a copy of a "Best Practices" manual, or > at least a clue-by-four. They tested in _one_ type of bottom, for a > total of four straight-line pulls... does this resemble *any* real-life > anchoring scenario??? Some mothers' children, I swear... > > (I do agree with one statement in that test, though: Bruces aren't worth > a damn in a hard sand bottom. If you want to buy Bruces cheap by the > dozen, stop in at Georgetown, Bahamas after a hard blow and look for > boats that went aground; they'll sell'em cheap. :) > > In my personal experience, I've found that CQRs hook and hold well in > more types of bottom than almost anything else. I carry a couple of > Danforth types (a Fortress FX-23 and a little steel one) for heavy weeds > and shallow sand over a hard bottom, and a big homemade fisherman for > rocks; all the rest of them are CQRs. > > If you're going to range widely in your cruising, you need to have > anchors that will be useful in many different types of bottom, that > provide good holding, and that can be stowed where you can retrieve them > - rigged and instantly ready to go - in case of problems. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15171|15171|2007-10-27 23:36:56|slusher_ben|steel boat building|Hello, I'm new on the site and I've been exploring different possible boats for a future project and I've come across the idea of a steel hull. My only problem is I also like the look of wood so I would like to meld the two. I've seen some of the boats here and I like the hull ideas but would like to use a smaller more traditional deck house. I'm comfortable with welding so I wouldn't have a problem there. What I would really like to find is something in the 20 - 28 ft. range, 8'6" beam or less, maybe a double ender or a falmouth cutter type, gaff cutter or yawl cutter rig, etc. Can a teak overlay be epoxied to the deck like they do with glass boats? I'm not sure yet, just throwing out ideas here. Is there a website available to browse some of Swains designs? Thanks in advance and I appreciate any patience thrown at a newbie. Ben| 15172|15164|2007-10-27 23:38:23|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 03:07:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I've always run cqr's and big sob's at that, but I have to tell you, > lots of times I had trouble setting them, and on a handful of > occasions they would come completely loose when the tide reversed and > swung em around. Never really liked them but couldn't find anything > consistently better. They can definitely be finicky, but as you say, I haven't found anything better. I find that using one of a few different techniques will eventually get them in, at which point they hold just fine. Case in point: right here in St. Augustine, if you try to "powerset" a hook, you'll still be at it a few years later. :) The bottom here is about 4 feet of that soupy "mangrove mud" over hard mud. The only way to get a hook in is to lay it out and *wait* (and hope that there's no bad weather for a while.) After three or four days, though, you'd better have a hell of a windlass - because that anchor is going to take you a couple of hours to dig out (unless you're really strong or really smart. :) A light Danforth, like a Fortress, would take weeks to "mud in" around here - and a fisherman or similar wouldn't pivot and stay dug in. As a result, what everyone uses here is either a) a big CQR or b) three to four anchors spread out and brought to a common point. Well, not _everyone,_ actually - there's a guy whose boat is usually on its side or grinding itself to bits on the shoal... :) > Oh, and re the test, I thought they tested in four or five different > locations, and four tests at each location. I must have read the > article wrong. Well, for a certain value of "different". :) `` We evaluated all of the anchors on the same bottom with the same scope, from the same boat, over four nonconsecutive pulls. [...] We chose three locations just outside Santa Cruz harbor and, after testing the bottom makeup with a core sampler, determined that the hard sand bottom at all three was suitable, knowing that not all anchors do their best in this. '' > They Hydro has been favorably regarded by a large > number of other reviewers two. Expensive sob though LOL. hmmm, maybe a > few scrap stainless plates...some sched 40 pvc pipe and ends hehehe.. I've met a number of people who built their own anchors. Those who built either Danforths or fisherman anchors did OK, at least in the really big sizes; people who tried building CQRs, etc. all had problems (the anchors didn't work worth a damn.) Which reminds me: there's a guy in St. Johns who came up with an odd-looking anchor, a sort of a half-plow with a curved shank, that works *really* well according to everyone who has one. Even small ones hold like the devil - a 13-pounder held a 30' boat through the last part of hurricane Georges in Long Bay harbor all by itself. I've never seen them sold anywhere in the States, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15173|15171|2007-10-27 23:57:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel boat building|On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 03:36:53AM -0000, slusher_ben wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new on the site and I've been exploring different possible boats > for a future project and I've come across the idea of a steel hull. > My only problem is I also like the look of wood so I would like to > meld the two. I've seen some of the boats here and I like the hull > ideas but would like to use a smaller more traditional deck house. > I'm comfortable with welding so I wouldn't have a problem there. What > I would really like to find is something in the 20 - 28 ft. range, > 8'6" beam or less, maybe a double ender or a falmouth cutter type, > gaff cutter or yawl cutter rig, etc. Can a teak overlay be epoxied to > the deck like they do with glass boats? I'm not sure yet, just > throwing out ideas here. Is there a website available to browse some > of Swains designs? Thanks in advance and I appreciate any patience > thrown at a newbie. > > Ben Well, since I happen to know that anybody named Ben has to be a nice guy, I'll see if I can help out. :) Brent's got a great design in the size you're talking about, but that idea of melding wood and steel could get pretty tricky. My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it: wood over steel and out in the weather is a BAD IDEA unless you take some extreme precautions. I've spent a lot of time and effort cutting and welding lately because the previous owner of this boat thought that teak over steel would make it "prettier"; the result, of course, was that the wood trapped moisture next to the steel, and eventually turned the latter into pastry. (Lesson number one in steel boats: don't create rust traps!) The only place where the steel didn't corrode away was where the guy had epoxied standoffs (he glued wood battens right to the paint over the steel instead of using screws) and screwed the wood to those. However, if you do this on a deck, I'm pretty sure that the flexing (from people walking on it, temperature, etc.) will crack the epoxy in short order. Keeping the wood down below means a lot less maintenance (varnishing and such), less chance of rust, and less unnecessary weight up top. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15174|15171|2007-10-28 00:12:00|pipercubdream@aol.com|Re: steel boat building|hello Ben Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sold on the idea of a wood deck, just thought it would be interesting. I do like the idea of a small deck house, with lots of deck space. Would trim added would make the "traditional look", wood mast, etc. Any pictures of the 26 footer, interior, etc.? regards, Ben ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15175|15171|2007-10-28 06:46:25|Alex Christie|Re: steel boat building|I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite corrosion. In other words, trouble! The beauty of using only welded steel is that it is monolithic, basically seamless, and homogenous in nature, so there are no "hotspots" to worry about hiding under alien materials like wood. I was trained in wooden boatbuilding, but I definitely believe wood belongs only belowdecks on steel boats! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: pipercubdream@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat building hello Ben Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sold on the idea of a wood deck, just thought it would be interesting. I do like the idea of a small deck house, with lots of deck space. Would trim added would make the "traditional look", wood mast, etc. Any pictures of the 26 footer, interior, etc.? regards, Ben ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 27/10/2007 11:02 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15176|15171|2007-10-28 07:43:07|seeratlas|Re: steel boat building|If you absolutely have to have some wood topside, I think Brent's proposal to weld stainless castle nuts into the deck so you can secure your wood grates etc. while leaving ventilation space between them and the steel is probably the best way to go. Still, unless you really like to varnish brightwork, (and I can tell you it REALLY gets old after a bit)i'd forego the wood topside also. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite corrosion. In other words, trouble! The beauty of using only welded steel is that it is monolithic, basically seamless, and homogenous in nature, so there are no "hotspots" to worry about hiding under alien materials like wood. I was trained in wooden boatbuilding, but I definitely believe wood belongs only belowdecks on steel boats! > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: pipercubdream@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:11 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel boat building > > > hello Ben > > Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sold on the idea of a wood deck, just > thought it would be interesting. I do like the idea of a small deck house, > with lots of deck space. Would trim added would make the "traditional look", > wood mast, etc. Any pictures of the 26 footer, interior, etc.? > > regards, > > Ben > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 27/10/2007 11:02 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15177|15164|2007-10-28 08:21:44|sae140|Re: Anchoring.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The Query.... > > Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? > I've often wondered about the practicalities of having an 'adjustable weight' anchor - the idea being to build a physically larger anchor (i.e. larger area or length flukes, longer shank etc) but using higher tensile steel, so the resulting creation would be physically larger, but weigh about the same or even less. Then - just prior to chucking it over - add a number of clip-on weights somewhere around the anchor crown. Also, if the anchor was lowered a couple of metres before finally letting-go, a clip-on catenary weight could also be added to the chain. That way you could vary the weight of just one anchor to suit various existing or predicted conditions. A big downside would be having to go forward to mess about with weights at a time you might not choose to be 'up front'. Colin| 15178|15171|2007-10-28 08:24:54|sae140|Re: steel boat building|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite corrosion. For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. Colin| 15179|15164|2007-10-28 10:59:21|mkriley48|Re: Anchoring.|I have found that the often overlooked northill is a good choice if you need anchor that will hold in anything. This requires a bowsprit or a overlay of sacrificial wood on the bow like the shrimpers have. designed by the navy for flying boats and designed to work in all siuations. this is the standard for workboats in the east coast mike| 15180|15171|2007-10-28 11:13:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel boat building|On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 12:11:41AM -0400, pipercubdream@... wrote: > hello Ben > > Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sold on the idea of a wood deck, just > thought it would be interesting. I do like the idea of a small deck house, > with lots of deck space. Would trim added would make the "traditional look", > wood mast, etc. Any pictures of the 26 footer, interior, etc.? Someone has already mentioned Brent's idea (which I'd somehow missed) of welding in some SS nuts and mounting the wood to those - again, leaving some space for air to circulate, which sounds like the grates that I'd suggested. In other words, it's possible - but watch out for problems. Also, building a deck house out of wood is a questionable proposition - especially if you're going to be working with steel. Have you ever seen what a breaking sea can do to deck structures? I've heard estimates of 3 tons of impact force per square meter for a solid wave rolling down the deck. I don't know how accurate that is, but that might be a departure point for calculating how strong things need to be. Steel, at ~55Kpsi, will stand up to it just fine. Wood, well, it's doable - but takes some serious design smarts and construction ability. The main thing about steel, for me, is its *reserve strength*. Even in the thinnest practical gauge (so thin that the deck is barely _not_ denting under the weight of the person walking on it), the shear strength of the stuff is enough that you could hang the entire boat by the edge of that same piece of metal. That's a whole hell of a lot of peace of mind for me. I don't plan on going "in harms way" deliberately, but I've been in sea conditions that literally made my crewman's bowels let go and made him into a useless, cowering lump hiding in a corner in terror; it was a good feeling to know that the boat, no matter what, would not let me down. Personally, I think that a boat that is well-designed and well-suited to its purpose is beautiful, in a very Zen, minimalist fashion. Both George Buehler's and Brent Swain's designs fill that bill for me, and adding "stuff" for the purpose of making them prettier is sort of like tying flowers to a Stradivarius violin or an H&H shotgun. But that's just me; one crazed sailor's opinion, nothing more. :) Pics of Brentboats: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos As a general piece of good advice: buy Brent's book. I've been cruising, designing, and inventing boat-related stuff for a long time; I'm still amazed by the amount and the quality of information that I got out of that book. Brent thinks sideways, not just outside the box but outside the whole rut (which is a hell of a compliment in my idiom. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15181|15164|2007-10-28 13:04:18|mark hamill|Re: Anchoring.|I went to a slide talk at he Bluewater Cruising Association in Vancouver, BC and the cruiser noted that he always used a 60lb.Danforth anchor when a 35lb. was called for and in a world cruise had never had a problem. (By the way it was the childrens job to weigh anchor and he said if they needed more power they just used a longer handle on the winch--10 year olds) Twice in the last month my CQR has let go when the winds reversed. 2 days ago I awoke at 4:30 am to find myself 20 from a barge with the wind rising and after starting the engine spent the next 45 minutes slowly dragging towards shallow water and cranking the anchor up with a Swain style windlass.I single hand so it is somewhat like the proverbial one armed paper hanger. Anyway, I think I'll now go with a big anchor. Mark H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've always run cqr's and big sob's at that, but I have to tell you, > lots of times I had trouble setting them, and on a handful of > occasions they would come completely loose when the tide reversed and > swung em around. Never really liked them but couldn't find anything > consistently better. I might just give one of those hydro's a try, > specially with the give it back guarantee. Should only take a few > hours to see what it can or cannot do. > > Oh, and re the test, I thought they tested in four or five different > locations, and four tests at each location. I must have read the > article wrong. They Hydro has been favorably regarded by a large > number of other reviewers two. Expensive sob though LOL. hmmm, maybe a > few scrap stainless plates...some sched 40 pvc pipe and ends hehehe.. > > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 11:27:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ > > > > > > And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at > > > the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. > > > > I hate those damn anchor-test articles. :) Even though I've never played > > a scientist on TV, I've worked in an environment where we had to design > > definitive tests, and every time I read one of those things, I want to > > beat those people senseless with a copy of a "Best Practices" manual, or > > at least a clue-by-four. They tested in _one_ type of bottom, for a > > total of four straight-line pulls... does this resemble *any* real-life > > anchoring scenario??? Some mothers' children, I swear... > > > > (I do agree with one statement in that test, though: Bruces aren't worth > > a damn in a hard sand bottom. If you want to buy Bruces cheap by the > > dozen, stop in at Georgetown, Bahamas after a hard blow and look for > > boats that went aground; they'll sell'em cheap. :) > > > > In my personal experience, I've found that CQRs hook and hold well in > > more types of bottom than almost anything else. I carry a couple of > > Danforth types (a Fortress FX-23 and a little steel one) for heavy weeds > > and shallow sand over a hard bottom, and a big homemade fisherman for > > rocks; all the rest of them are CQRs. > > > > If you're going to range widely in your cruising, you need to have > > anchors that will be useful in many different types of bottom, that > > provide good holding, and that can be stowed where you can retrieve them > > - rigged and instantly ready to go - in case of problems. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15182|15171|2007-10-28 13:43:27|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: steel boat building|This is about a stainless steel hull ... A stainless steel hull used in this northwest passage circumnavigation as featured in todays Sunday Times in the U.K ... http://www.alphaglobalex.com/Default.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15183|15183|2007-10-28 14:10:46|Alex Christie|Re: stainless hull|The use of 316 stainless (good thing he had the steel company sponsoring the cost of the material!) was interesting to see in this vessel. But I had to say, as an origamiist, looking at the "The Boat" web page I had to cringe seeing once again all those complicated frames set up on a strongback, while the author mentions that they had to use argon gas in the welding process to prevent Carbide Precipitation contamination of the welds with (hence embrittlement). Wouldn't it have made sense therefor to radically reduce the number of welding runs required to attain a hull shape, by using origami?? Zounds! Go ahead and call me a fundamentalist hehe They could have reduced the vast amount of welding runs (and distortion) they would have put into the outer skin, but instead they ended up with multiple chine "planks", each long piece needing reams of welding when they could have done it origami and had welds solely along the centre-line and a few for the "darts" mid-ships. Neat boat, but once again I see that someone is thinking that metal construction should copy wood construction, only in a different material. They likely cut those beautiful full-length pieces of stainless sheet (probably came in long 8 foot wide pieces too!) length-wise into long "planks" only to end up rewelding them together on the hull... Of course there is more than one way to build a boat, and vive la différence, but on a purely practical level I have to ask why they would not seek to simplify the construction to take advantage of the benefits that metal provides for boatbuilding. They did do their top two "planks" of stainless in 3 mm on the hull instead of 4mm, which I suppose was a desire to reduce weight, but I have to wonder if it would really make much over-all difference to the performance of the ship had it been all 4mm origami and dispense with the weight of the transverse frames (stainless is not light). Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Ian and Jean Campbell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building This is about a stainless steel hull ... A stainless steel hull used in this northwest passage circumnavigation as featured in todays Sunday Times in the U.K ... http://www.alphaglobalex.com/Default.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15184|15171|2007-10-28 15:25:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: steel boat building|Hi Colin, Do you know where they got the granulated cork? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > corrosion. > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > Colin > | 15185|15171|2007-10-28 18:21:29|Harry James|Re: steel boat building|I would mention that he is saying that it is the first single handed vertical circumnavigation. All this means is it is the first one where somebody tried to get publicity out of it. Over the years I lived in Nome I saw a lot of people come through many just fulfilling their dreams and not caring whether anybody knew what they were doing. Those requiring rescue were often those with the most publicity. Focal point for some pretty weird dudes alright. HJ Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > This is about a stainless steel hull ... > > > A stainless steel hull used in this northwest passage circumnavigation as featured in todays Sunday Times in the U.K ... > > http://www.alphaglobalex.com/Default.aspx > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15186|15164|2007-10-28 18:55:17|Bill Jaine|Re: Anchoring.|I've always felt that more and heavier chain was the answer......in my experience you can put a toothpick at the end of lotsa heavy chain and you won't move an inch Bill Port Hope Canada > > > armed paper hanger. Anyway, I think I'll now go with a big anchor. > Mark H. > | 15187|15164|2007-10-28 20:37:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 06:55:11PM -0400, Bill Jaine wrote: > I've always felt that more and heavier chain was the answer......in my > experience you can put a toothpick at the end of lotsa heavy chain and > you won't move an inch I was _just_ saying that, about two hours ago, to a cruiser who was passing through here and decided to quiz me about anchoring (funny timing, hey?) Except I used the word "fork" instead of "toothpick". :) Again, based on my experience, I find that 120-150 feet of chain plus a good primary hook will hold you through most situations. I'm also a big fan of having the inboard end of the chain attached to a shackle that comes up above the deck when you've run it all out. This allows you to extend the chain, either with nylon or more chain, if that becomes necessary - or conversely, to "knock the shackle free" (the gear can be retrieved later) and run for it. You want to have as many options as possible in case you're ever way up the ordure inlet with no means of non-manual hydro-kinetic propulsion. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15188|15183|2007-10-28 22:20:59|seeratlas|Re: stainless hull|After looking at the elegantly clean and open inside of Gord's 40, in comparison I was shocked when I got down into the bilges on my Brewer at the massive size of the frames, ribs, and longitudinals. Clearly, this amount of steelwork can't be necessary. I'm going to post a couple of shots past the submarine like hatch on the collision bulkhead forward into the anchor locker. Just look at the beams and plate up there, and its all stainless..painted blood red epoxy, but stainless LOL. I would NOT want to be the errant glass monkey that strays into this bow. If I hadn't found this boat, a modified Brent 40 stretched a bit would clearly have been a far lighter and more steel efficient boat. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > The use of 316 stainless (good thing he had the steel company sponsoring the cost of the material!) was interesting to see in this vessel. But I had to say, as an origamiist, looking at the "The Boat" web page I had to cringe seeing once again all those complicated frames set up on a strongback, while the author mentions that they had to use argon gas in the welding process to prevent Carbide Precipitation contamination of the welds with (hence embrittlement). Wouldn't it have made sense therefor to radically reduce the number of welding runs required to attain a hull shape, by using origami?? Zounds! Go ahead and call me a fundamentalist hehe > > They could have reduced the vast amount of welding runs (and distortion) they would have put into the outer skin, but instead they ended up with multiple chine "planks", each long piece needing reams of welding when they could have done it origami and had welds solely along the centre-line and a few for the "darts" mid-ships. Neat boat, but once again I see that someone is thinking that metal construction should copy wood construction, only in a different material. They likely cut those beautiful full-length pieces of stainless sheet (probably came in long 8 foot wide pieces too!) length-wise into long "planks" only to end up rewelding them together on the hull... > > Of course there is more than one way to build a boat, and vive la différence, but on a purely practical level I have to ask why they would not seek to simplify the construction to take advantage of the benefits that metal provides for boatbuilding. > > They did do their top two "planks" of stainless in 3 mm on the hull instead of 4mm, which I suppose was a desire to reduce weight, but I have to wonder if it would really make much over-all difference to the performance of the ship had it been all 4mm origami and dispense with the weight of the transverse frames (stainless is not light). > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ian and Jean Campbell > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:40 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > This is about a stainless steel hull ... > > A stainless steel hull used in this northwest passage circumnavigation as featured in todays Sunday Times in the U.K ... > > http://www.alphaglobalex.com/Default.aspx > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15189|15164|2007-10-28 22:38:17|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at night. :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > I've always felt that more and heavier chain was the answer......in my > experience you can put a toothpick at the end of lotsa heavy chain and > you won't move an inch > Bill > Port Hope Canada > > > > > > armed paper hanger. Anyway, I think I'll now go with a big anchor. > > Mark H. > > > | 15190|15164|2007-10-28 22:42:02|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|.y - or conversely, to "knock the shackle free" (the gear can be > retrieved later) and run for it. You want to have as many options as > possible in case you're ever way up the ordure inlet with no means of > non-manual hydro-kinetic propulsion. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Ben, I've always made it a practice to have the chain shackled to a length of nylon rode and that secured to the hull so I could cut it loose in a hurry (I ALWAYS carry a knife on a boat)in the dark by feel...funny it always seemed to be in the dark in the middle of the night, in weather when I had to go out and fool with the ground tackles :)| 15191|15191|2007-10-28 23:16:38|seeratlas|Line Cutters on the shaft|Some of you will recall my story of having to go over the side, way the hell off the coast of Oregon/Washington, in weather, to cut a piece of heavy net off the prop. Couple of points I want to make. I really don't know anyone with any substantial degree of sailing experience that HASN'T wrapped something around a prop at one time or another. Further, going under the boat is very dangerous in any kind of swell due to the movement of the boat and the tendency of netting to pull the "chinese finger trap" trick and scissor down on your hand/ fingers, whatever as the boat surges forward down a swell. If you are free diving, you can die. I had a full scuba tank so plenty of air, but I still darn near got my arm jerked out of the socket when the net clamped down on me and then surged forward with the hull at something like 3 or 4 knots. And even after I survived that, I still almost didn't make it as I forgot about the swim step when coming up and as the bow rose, the stern slapped down into the water and whacked me on the head almost knocking me out, it DID, however, knock me silly for about 20 seconds..which means that unless I was tied to the boat..(I wasn't and that was stupid) if there hadn't been someone waiting for me to come up I might have missed my trailed line ( I always trail out about 150 feet of knoted line behind the boat when on the ocean so if anyone goes over they have a shot at grabbing it. Moral of the story, I don't want to have to do that again sooooo, I was looking at the prop on my Brewer and thinking that now would be a good time to install some kind of line cutter on there. There are basically three different designs that I found and they are all ridiculously expensive. I don't see any reason for not making up a set of horizontal bars with angled tipped *shaving * blade edges on each side of the skeg pointing horizontally to the rear and protruding out so that as the prop feeds the line, net, whatever, onto the shaft aft of the skeg, these horizontal swords simply *shave* em off. I might be missing something but this seems like a REALLY cost effective *good* idea to me and I wanted to mention it in case some of you builders hadn't considered the possibilities. These would have to be stainless, and the cutting edges hardened, but welding a pair on during construction would be trivial compared to what I went through under the boat. seer| 15192|15164|2007-10-28 23:45:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at night. :) Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done any cruising about what to expect: The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k and had 5' high topsides.) We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. ... A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told him that he was covered." A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top hurricane strategy for me. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15193|15164|2007-10-28 23:53:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:41:59AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > .y - or conversely, to "knock the shackle free" (the gear can be > > retrieved later) and run for it. You want to have as many options as > > possible in case you're ever way up the ordure inlet with no means of > > non-manual hydro-kinetic propulsion. :) > > > Ben, I've always made it a practice to have the chain shackled to a > length of nylon rode and that secured to the hull so I could cut it > loose in a hurry (I ALWAYS carry a knife on a boat)in the dark by > feel...funny it always seemed to be in the dark in the middle of the > night, in weather when I had to go out and fool with the ground tackles :) Seer, as far as I know, that's a law of nature. :) I don't know where you are right now, but it's blowing a good 30kt. here in St. Augustine, and they're predicting that this weather will stay around for another three days or so; given that it's dark and rainy out there, I'm expecting to hear another boat dragging into me right about now. :) Conversely, I'm cheerful and secure in daytime - nothing will happen then no matter what the wind does. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15194|15164|2007-10-29 00:07:41|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|Ben, Back in Arkansas wrangling horses :) and seeing what's left of my old seafarin gear :) Seem to have an amazing amount of deep sea fishing tackle :) LOL> Got all my scuba equip out of storage, but for some reason my wetsuit seems to have shrunk . LOL. Went out collecting tools to bring down for the refurb but a lot of small wrenches, sockets, screwdrivers etc. seemed to be missing...then over in the corner of the barn, found a big pile of trash..didn't remember putting it there..started digging thru and found all sorts of interesting stuff, i.e. small wrenches, sockets, screwdrivers etc...and a bunch of pink corning insulation...then I saw it move... up pops two beady little eyes followed by a face with a "what the hell you doing to my house' look LOL. Seems an errant packrat has taken up residence and done some decorating with my tools:) No fear either, I was standing right next to him when he popped his head up to see what was going on LOL. Well, I took my tools, and left him to rebuild his roof :) He went right to it, too. Going to be in the high 30's tonight and he seemed to know it:) I'll be back down in a few days. Got a chance to talk to the guy who did all the steel work on the boat. Interesting stories :) I posted some new photos in my folder in the FILES section. Forepeak looks like an ice breaker...LOL. Turns out original owner is from New Brunswick. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:41:59AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > .y - or conversely, to "knock the shackle free" (the gear can be > > > retrieved later) and run for it. You want to have as many options as > > > possible in case you're ever way up the ordure inlet with no means of > > > non-manual hydro-kinetic propulsion. :) > > > > > Ben, I've always made it a practice to have the chain shackled to a > > length of nylon rode and that secured to the hull so I could cut it > > loose in a hurry (I ALWAYS carry a knife on a boat)in the dark by > > feel...funny it always seemed to be in the dark in the middle of the > > night, in weather when I had to go out and fool with the ground tackles :) > > Seer, as far as I know, that's a law of nature. :) I don't know where > you are right now, but it's blowing a good 30kt. here in St. Augustine, > and they're predicting that this weather will stay around for another > three days or so; given that it's dark and rainy out there, I'm > expecting to hear another boat dragging into me right about now. :) > Conversely, I'm cheerful and secure in daytime - nothing will happen > then no matter what the wind does. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15195|15191|2007-10-29 00:08:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Line Cutters on the shaft|On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 03:15:33AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Some of you will recall my story of having to go over the side, way > the hell off the coast of Oregon/Washington, in weather, to cut a > piece of heavy net off the prop. Been there, done that, in 6' swells off Caja de Muertes. Yep - a real easy way to die, especially if you're single-handing (as I was.) I must have dodged that stern slamming down fifty times in a row; even once would have shattered my skull. > Moral of the story, I don't want to have to do that again sooooo, > I was looking at the prop on my Brewer and thinking that now would be > a good time to install some kind of line cutter on there. > > There are basically three different designs that I found and they are > all ridiculously expensive. I don't see any reason for not making up > a set of horizontal bars with angled tipped *shaving * blade edges on > each side of the skeg pointing horizontally to the rear and protruding > out so that as the prop feeds the line, net, whatever, onto the shaft > aft of the skeg, these horizontal swords simply *shave* em off. > > I might be missing something but this seems like a REALLY cost > effective *good* idea to me and I wanted to mention it in case some of > you builders hadn't considered the possibilities. These would have to > be stainless, and the cutting edges hardened, but welding a pair on > during construction would be trivial compared to what I went through > under the boat. Uh... I can still see situations where you might have to dive the stern - something jammed in the rudder, getting hung up on a wire/cable, or even trying to rig a "bear" to cover a hole in the hull - in which case, that thing would *really* be a death trap. How about a really sharp branch saw that can be attached to a boathook, instead? It won't clear a prop that's got a bunch of line jammed onto the shaft (that's what happened to me... a hacksaw blade can be your best friend, then, because even a really sharp knife doesn't cut polypro too well), but it'll get you "disconnected" from the net or whatever. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15196|15164|2007-10-29 00:08:46|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|Ben, forgot to mention, I think there's weather down south, trop storm or something going to cycle up to cuba and vicinity. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:41:59AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > .y - or conversely, to "knock the shackle free" (the gear can be > > > retrieved later) and run for it. You want to have as many options as > > > possible in case you're ever way up the ordure inlet with no means of > > > non-manual hydro-kinetic propulsion. :) > > > > > Ben, I've always made it a practice to have the chain shackled to a > > length of nylon rode and that secured to the hull so I could cut it > > loose in a hurry (I ALWAYS carry a knife on a boat)in the dark by > > feel...funny it always seemed to be in the dark in the middle of the > > night, in weather when I had to go out and fool with the ground tackles :) > > Seer, as far as I know, that's a law of nature. :) I don't know where > you are right now, but it's blowing a good 30kt. here in St. Augustine, > and they're predicting that this weather will stay around for another > three days or so; given that it's dark and rainy out there, I'm > expecting to hear another boat dragging into me right about now. :) > Conversely, I'm cheerful and secure in daytime - nothing will happen > then no matter what the wind does. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15197|15164|2007-10-29 00:24:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchoring.|On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 04:08:46AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben, forgot to mention, I think there's weather down south, trop storm > or something going to cycle up to cuba and vicinity. Yep, I've been watching it. It's supposed to recurve east again, but I only trust NWS/NOAA predictions for 12 hours max. I don't even know why they make those 72-hour forecasts... if you want a guarantee of where a storm *won't* be, watch those. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15198|15164|2007-10-29 00:39:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchoring.|Hi Guys, I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at night. :) Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done any cruising about what to expect: The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k and had 5' high topsides.) We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. ... A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told him that he was covered." A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top hurricane strategy for me. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15199|15164|2007-10-29 00:41:30|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some automotive or trucks units? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at night. :) > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done > any cruising about what to expect: > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > and had 5' high topsides.) > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > ... > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told > him that he was covered." > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > hurricane strategy for me. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15200|15157|2007-10-29 00:51:06|Paul Wilson|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|Ben and Seer, I have made legs for my boat using fence posts. I made up some fittings that clamp onto the scuppers and then use 1 inch threaded rod welded to a piece of angle which bolts onto the posts. I figured you could get fence posts anywhere in the world easily and relatively cheaply. I couldn't figure out where to stow pipes on board. My boat is on the hard right now using them. Today I was jacking the boat higher and at one point I had all the weight on the legs (OK, I screwed things up a bit) .......no problems. I have yet to try them in the water but as long as I can hold the ends down and steady, they should hopefully work out OK. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:54:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :) Ben, Using some of the ultra high strength steel tubes I mentioned a few weeks ago, I can get hella strong corrosion resistant steel pipe that is roughly half the weight of similarly sized mild steel. If you look at the pictures of the boat in my Files folder, you can see the little davit/boom/crane thing amidships. there are four mounts for that welded into the deck which would be perfect for the bottom of my tent/awning setup :) even if I just used the sections for the vertical part of the awning setup. Would be hell for strong LOL. but you're right. going to have to run some numbers. One guy i knew with a shoal draft keel would look for a nice sandy or caked mud place and dig a big trench for the keel then bring it in as the tide fell and let it ground that way. It's not like you're going to do this like the bilge keel guys, i.e. for months at a time :) Second, also in my folder there under "Schooner.jpg" you'll see Carl's boat with pretty much the same gallant rig I have in place. there ARE no whisker poles , spinnaker poles etc. :) etc. :) hehehe though, I'm toying with the idea of using a couple of these standing leg poles screwed together to form the base of some kind of a downwind light air 'blooper' rig. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 01:50:34PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Since I have basically four robust midline scuppers on each side, (see > > photo in Files section, (Seer's 44 Schooner)I was wondering if maybe I > > could rig up a set of steel poles as sheerlegs that basically hook > > into the scuppers from below as the ship settles. > > You'd want two attachment points per leg (obvious, I know), where you > can "lock" each of the points to the boat. On my previous boat, a French > Aloa (an OSTAR racer) there was a set of "hard points" for sheerlegs; > two holes through the toerails and two solid SS mount points, a sort of > an upside-down keyhole shape in each where a matching shape would lock > in. I never used them - the boat didn't come with the legs - but the > design was a pretty good one. You'd probably want some kind of a wide > pad on the lower end of each leg to distribute the load. > > With Ulysses, my keel is so wide that even when I tried laying the boat > over to do some work on the hull, it... sorta didn't happen. :) > > http://okopnik. com/galleries/ Ulysses/large/ p9230180. jpg > > We started referring to Ulysses as "The Weebleboat" after that - 'cause > weebles wobble, but they don't fall down... could get her to lay over > even with a line abeam and me winching for all I was worth. > > > Been just > > 'guestimating' and figured I could make them in pieces and use them to > > double as a full ship awning frame. They would be roughly ten feet > > long, so two five piece sections per leg with heave sleeve over joint > > to strengthen the middle. I have plenty of room to carry them :) > > What diameter pipe were you thinking of using? Seems like anything > strong enough to be a sheerleg would be a massive affair, way too heavy > to wrestle with for awnings and such. > > Hmm, I'm visualizing two-piece sheerlegs (with a sleeve, as you were > saying) stored along the outside of the toerails. Or maybe just using > your whisker pole and your spinnaker pole (would they be stromg enough?) > for the job; rigging the hardware for that would be pretty easy. > > > Any of you guys used sheerlegs before? I've never had the occasion, > > but want to be able to dry out anywhere I find a suitable tide and bottom. > > Personally, I tend to avoid places where there's that much tide. They're > too far from the equator for my tastes. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15201|15164|2007-10-29 01:04:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchoring.|Seer, No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for now. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some automotive or trucks units? seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at night. :) > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done > any cruising about what to expect: > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > and had 5' high topsides.) > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > ... > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told > him that he was covered." > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > hurricane strategy for me. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15202|15171|2007-10-29 05:52:58|sae140|Re: steel boat building|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > Do you know where they got the granulated cork? > > Regards, > > Ted > Hi Ted - some folks have been making their own from cork tile offcuts in a coffee-blender, which then requires sieving and grading, others have bought ready-graded direct from builders merchants. It might be worth looking at the thread 892-903 over at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wylo-II/ and even do a forum search there for 'cork' which throws up a number of older threads about this interesting technique. Sorry can't be more helpful. best, Colin| 15203|15157|2007-10-29 09:48:34|seeratlas|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|Can you load up a couple of pictures in the files section? I'm not entirely clear as to what you've done but would sure like to see it. I've also been thinking of what kind of feet to put on the poles. I'm thinking socketed plates of two types, one pretty wide set for mud, and one with some teeth on the bottom for everything else. Thing that scares me most is the thought of having the feet slide out sideways bending the pipe and bringing the whole thing down. seer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Ben and Seer, > > I have made legs for my boat using fence posts. I made up some fittings that clamp onto the scuppers and then use 1 inch threaded rod welded to a piece of angle which bolts onto the posts. I figured you could get fence posts anywhere in the world easily and relatively cheaply. I couldn't figure out where to stow pipes on board. My boat is on the hard right now using them. Today I was jacking the boat higher and at one point I had all the weight on the legs (OK, I screwed things up a bit) .......no problems. > > I have yet to try them in the water but as long as I can hold the ends down and steady, they should hopefully work out OK. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:54:45 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :) > > Ben, > > Using some of the ultra high strength steel tubes I mentioned a few > weeks ago, I can get hella strong corrosion resistant steel pipe that > is roughly half the weight of similarly sized mild steel. If you look > at the pictures of the boat in my Files folder, you can see the little > davit/boom/crane thing amidships. there are four mounts for that > welded into the deck which would be perfect for the bottom of my > tent/awning setup :) even if I just used the sections for the vertical > part of the awning setup. Would be hell for strong LOL. but you're > right. going to have to run some numbers. One guy i knew with a shoal > draft keel would look for a nice sandy or caked mud place and dig a > big trench for the keel then bring it in as the tide fell and let it > ground that way. It's not like you're going to do this like the bilge > keel guys, i.e. for months at a time :) > > Second, also in my folder there under "Schooner.jpg" you'll see Carl's > boat with pretty much the same gallant rig I have in place. there ARE > no whisker poles , spinnaker poles etc. :) etc. :) hehehe though, I'm > toying with the idea of using a couple of these standing leg poles > screwed together to form the base of some kind of a downwind light air > 'blooper' rig. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2007 at 01:50:34PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > Since I have basically four robust midline scuppers on each side, (see > > > photo in Files section, (Seer's 44 Schooner)I was wondering if maybe I > > > could rig up a set of steel poles as sheerlegs that basically hook > > > into the scuppers from below as the ship settles. > > > > You'd want two attachment points per leg (obvious, I know), where you > > can "lock" each of the points to the boat. On my previous boat, a French > > Aloa (an OSTAR racer) there was a set of "hard points" for sheerlegs; > > two holes through the toerails and two solid SS mount points, a sort of > > an upside-down keyhole shape in each where a matching shape would lock > > in. I never used them - the boat didn't come with the legs - but the > > design was a pretty good one. You'd probably want some kind of a wide > > pad on the lower end of each leg to distribute the load. > > > > With Ulysses, my keel is so wide that even when I tried laying the boat > > over to do some work on the hull, it... sorta didn't happen. :) > > > > http://okopnik. com/galleries/ Ulysses/large/ p9230180. jpg > > > > We started referring to Ulysses as "The Weebleboat" after that - 'cause > > weebles wobble, but they don't fall down... could get her to lay over > > even with a line abeam and me winching for all I was worth. > > > > > Been just > > > 'guestimating' and figured I could make them in pieces and use them to > > > double as a full ship awning frame. They would be roughly ten feet > > > long, so two five piece sections per leg with heave sleeve over joint > > > to strengthen the middle. I have plenty of room to carry them :) > > > > What diameter pipe were you thinking of using? Seems like anything > > strong enough to be a sheerleg would be a massive affair, way too heavy > > to wrestle with for awnings and such. > > > > Hmm, I'm visualizing two-piece sheerlegs (with a sleeve, as you were > > saying) stored along the outside of the toerails. Or maybe just using > > your whisker pole and your spinnaker pole (would they be stromg enough?) > > for the job; rigging the hardware for that would be pretty easy. > > > > > Any of you guys used sheerlegs before? I've never had the occasion, > > > but want to be able to dry out anywhere I find a suitable tide and > bottom. > > > > Personally, I tend to avoid places where there's that much tide. They're > > too far from the equator for my tastes. :) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15204|15164|2007-10-29 09:53:46|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the service life is waaaaaaay out there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Seer, > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for now. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > automotive or trucks units? > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > night. :) > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > ... > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told > > him that he was covered." > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15205|15164|2007-10-29 10:02:35|edward_stoneuk|Hydraulic Anchoring.|Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch operated? Regards, Ted| 15206|22|2007-10-29 12:05:16|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's 44 Schooner/PICT0011.jpg Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Carl's Gallant Rig 'furled' You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20%2044%20Schooner/PICT0011.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 15207|15171|2007-10-29 12:43:40|Carl Anderson|Re: steel boat building|I would think that there will be problems with the great difference between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed into epoxy can approach that lifespan. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > corrosion. > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > Colin > > | 15208|15171|2007-10-29 13:03:16|Alex Christie|Re: steel boat building|There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building I would think that there will be problems with the great difference between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed into epoxy can approach that lifespan. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > corrosion. > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > Colin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15209|15171|2007-10-29 13:16:27|seeratlas|Re: steel boat building|I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to use some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with a little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a flush steel deck in south florida :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > > corrosion. > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15210|15210|2007-10-29 13:18:06|seeratlas|I've Posted more Pics|I've put up some new pics in the Files section of "The Pearl" :) (US Documentation in progress as we speak:) seer| 15211|15164|2007-10-29 13:50:53|Paul Wilson|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|The pump is on a lever arrangement. The lever is released and the belt is flipped on and off in a few seconds. Maybe a more permanent arrangement would have been better but I wanted to keep as much side loading off the crankshaft as I could and this set-up was easy to make and repair. I am not sure if it is true, but someone told me that the clutches can fail. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:02:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Anchoring. Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch operated? Regards, Ted __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15212|15164|2007-10-29 14:02:24|seeratlas|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|The clutches can and do fail. Simplest situation is like your lever system except using an *overcenter* bracket so that the unit is engaged by levering the bracket over a *hump* to engage, and back again to the slack position when not needed. Foolproof stuff, if you have easy access to the lever:). seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The pump is on a lever arrangement. The lever is released and the belt is flipped on and off in a few seconds. Maybe a more permanent arrangement would have been better but I wanted to keep as much side loading off the crankshaft as I could and this set-up was easy to make and repair. I am not sure if it is true, but someone told me that the clutches can fail. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:02:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hydraulic Anchoring. > > > Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch > operated? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15213|15157|2007-10-29 14:03:18|Paul Wilson|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|I will try to post some pictures tonight. Right now, the boat is on a large trailer which is slowly collapsing under the boat. The trailer has its own side supports but I don't trust them so I have made the sheer legs. The legs are tied together at their base with more fence posts so it is not the normal kind of situation you would use when you are in the water. The fittings which go onto the skuppers are the critical part. My plan in the water would be to tie the legs together probably the same way but with larger pads and then use lines to hold them steady fore and aft. By using wood posts you can make it easily anyway you like. You could probably set the whole thing up in the anchorage and then slowly drive it on to the beach. Paul Can you load up a couple of pictures in the files section? I'm not entirely clear as to what you've done but would sure like to see it. I've also been thinking of what kind of feet to put on the poles. I'm thinking socketed plates of two types, one pretty wide set for mud, and one with some teeth on the bottom for everything else. Thing that scares me most is the thought of having the feet slide out sideways bending the pipe and bringing the whole thing down. seer. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15214|15214|2007-10-29 14:10:54|seeratlas|Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|The following is a response I just received (damned promptly too :) from Thunderstruck in California (they have been building electric vehicle applications for a looooooong time now). Looks like the idea I posted about putting one of their kits on the shaft is a 'go' :). seer Letter is as follows: "Hi Bruce, It sounds like you're on the right track with your ideas. The Mars system should be able to do as you say, and yes the regen will add power back to the battery bank- including if you're powering under your main. If you want regen then you need the Mars motor, but if you're not worried about regen then the Etek or Perm 132 would work fine as well- they are a little more powerful, but also have brushed that wear out over time. With regards to installing a Mars motor to a small diesel, I would not recommend it. The Mars is a 3-phase DC motor and would require a controller to change the 3-phase into the correct DC to charge the batteries. Instead, you could use a Perm 132 or Etek as a generator and I think it would do the trick just fine. I hope this helps you along your way. If you have other questions just let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Good luck- sounds like a great project. -Alex -- Thunderstruck Motors, LLC. 3200 Dutton Ave #319 Santa Rosa , CA 95407 voice 707-575-0353 fax 707-544-5304| 15215|15157|2007-10-29 14:31:29|seeratlas|Re: was "Lead is in"-now "Sheerleg Questions" :)|Yeah, the scuppers I have are similar to Brent's design and damned stout so some kind of a forked hook on top of the pipe sized to the scupper, with a line to the cleat should secure THAT end of the sheerleg. I was considering cable under the hull from the bases of the sheerleg to its mirror on the other side of the boat. Similarly cables from the forward to aft legs on each side should pretty much fix the base. I would envision rigging this up in still water while the keel is still several feet off the bottom, then just monitoring everything's position as the water recedes and the boat settles. My problem is figuring out just how much compression these legs need to be able to take.:) And, it seems the most likely failure point would be the middle of each leg, therefore my idea of having this area 'sleeved' with a slightly larger section of tubing for reinforcement. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I will try to post some pictures tonight. Right now, the boat is on a large trailer which is slowly collapsing under the boat. The trailer has its own side supports but I don't trust them so I have made the sheer legs. The legs are tied together at their base with more fence posts so it is not the normal kind of situation you would use when you are in the water. The fittings which go onto the skuppers are the critical part. My plan in the water would be to tie the legs together probably the same way but with larger pads and then use lines to hold them steady fore and aft. By using wood posts you can make it easily anyway you like. You could probably set the whole thing up in the anchorage and then slowly drive it on to the beach. > > Paul > > > Can you load up a couple of pictures in the files section? I'm not > entirely clear as to what you've done but would sure like to see it. > I've also been thinking of what kind of feet to put on the poles. I'm > thinking socketed plates of two types, one pretty wide set for mud, > and one with some teeth on the bottom for everything else. Thing that > scares me most is the thought of having the feet slide out sideways > bending the pipe and bringing the whole thing down. > seer. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15216|15171|2007-10-29 14:31:39|Paul Wilson|Re: steel boat building|In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and the owners swear by it: http://www.kiwigrip.com/index.html It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to use some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with a little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a flush steel deck in south florida :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie wrote: > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > , Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > > corrosion. > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15217|15164|2007-10-29 14:36:46|Harry James|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|I made my own hydraulic rig on a fish boat years ago. I had two hydraulic pumps and a washdown pump off of the engine. I had them all run off a jack shaft.that turned all the time. Each pump had an electric clutch, worked pretty good. I bought all the stuff from Northern Tools by mail as I was in Nome AK at the time. I drew out the circuits and figured out the fittings I needed and ordered it up. Some times the valves didn't work exactly the way I thought they would and I had to do a little re plumbing. I used reusable fittings and a wrapping that the big boys used that was sort of like serving the fittings to keep corrosion down. Here is a pump link, a lot spendier then they used to be http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200329774_200329774 HJ edward_stoneuk wrote: > Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch > operated? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 15218|15164|2007-10-29 18:59:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Anchoring.|Do you what hydraulic means? I'm think it is French for LEAK! I hate friggin hydraulics. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the service life is waaaaaaay out there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Seer, > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for now. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > automotive or trucks units? > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself loose and > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > night. :) > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't done > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron had been > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant wife - > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was about to > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help him set > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had down was > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to leave a > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > ... > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his floating gin > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent told > > him that he was covered." > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15219|15164|2007-10-29 19:01:47|Carl Volkwein|Re: Anchoring.|My Dad did that years ago, he made himself a 35lb. danforth copy, and it was real popular with his boating buddies, so he ended up making several more. We didn't have any winch to lift the anchor, and only three strand road, but they worked for houseboats up to 50ft. seeratlas wrote: http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > the setup:.... > > All my sailing life I've fallen into the mindset of lunch hook, main > anchor, secondary..etc. and finally the big storm anchor you almost > never use. Not to mention the kedging anchor, stern anchor and > 'backup' anchors etc. :) > > It has recently occurred to me looking at it from a steel boat > perspective, that maybe I've been wrong. > > The 'pondering'... > > Since your ground tackle setup including windlass etc. has to be > strong enough to handle the biggest anchor you have on the boat > anyway.....(otherwise its useless right?)... > > The Query.... > > Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? > > Kicking a BIG one off the roller is no big imposition over kicking > the smaller one off...and I doubt that 40 to 50 lb difference at the > bow is going to make any meaningful change in the sailing of the boat, > especially given that you've removed the other one or two anchors > stored up there to somewhere back deeper in the boat... > > You also are putting the weight into the anchor(where it does the most > good) instead of the chain/rode/cable etc. > > You save money and space by having fewer anchors on board.. > > And you scare hell out of off course numbnuts inattentive harbor > weenies when they finally notice that big plow or similar "ram" > pointing at em as they hurry to get out of your way :) > > LOL. Look at it this way..all those restless nights wondering if > you're going to drag, if you've chosen good ground, whether some other > less fortunate is going to get loose and come your way threatening to > take you up on the beach with him etc..All of these sleep killing > stress factors could be eliminated by simply knowing you already have > your best *game* on the bottom where it should be :) > > Your main anchor and a backup for when you might have to cut loose in > an emergency and come back and retrieve it later, should handle the > whole bit, excepting a combo danforth type for kedging and using as a > stern anchor or in conjunction with your 'storm' up forward doing the > Y thing. Easy enough to carry some smaller ones for med style stern > anchoring etc. where you might want some more lines aft, but for > general purposes...I'm beginning to think that instead of digging > around for the "big guy" when you see trouble coming,, having him > already out and on the bottom in the first place is a lot less > stressful and in my old age, i'm really getting into stress avoidance > :) but maybe that's just me. > > I like the idea of calmly sitting in your cockpit, or PH, glass in > hand enjoying the show as the curtain goes up on the midnight maritime > version of the chinese fire drill as everyone else clambers up on > deck into the weather to put out a bigger anchor, while trying to > retrieve their dragging 'main' hooks while avoiding entangling > everyone else dancing the same dance. > > Given, if you have a strictly manual windlass, pulling the big one up > and down all the time might get old, but with powered gear...hmmm, for > the brewer, (where I'm going hydraulic so even a one armed woman can > handle the thing), I think I'll just mount the bruiser up front and > end of story. > > am I missing something here? > > as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts. > > seer > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15220|15164|2007-10-29 20:55:15|David A. Frantz|Re: Anchoring.|I wouldn't recommend schedule 40 iron pipe for anything hydraulic. Schedule 80 should be the minimal in iron and even there you need to make sure it is suitable for the pressures obtained. For schedule 40 ignore any pressure ratings you might find for specific sizes. The problem is the threaded connections which leave you with a very thin wall. Granted the duty cycle is very modest in this sort of application, but cracked threads at the wrong time are very undesirable. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful > and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in > stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule > 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the > boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet > which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. > > I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once > you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the > service life is waaaaaaay out there :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really > knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I > bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at > Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs > for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which > fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a > hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly > to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 > (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for > now. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > > automotive or trucks units? > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself > loose and > > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > > night. :) > > > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't > done > > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron > had been > > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant > wife - > > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was > about to > > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help > him set > > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had > down was > > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to > leave a > > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his > floating gin > > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent > told > > > him that he was covered." > > > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 15221|15164|2007-10-29 20:59:58|David A. Frantz|Re: Anchoring.|That is pretty much the story in industry too. :) The difference here is that your duty cycle isn't anywhere near 24/7. With a little thought you should be able to produce a Hydraulic system that works well and lasts a long time. If the hydraulic system is powered down most of the time you might be even better off. I say might because it seems like the start up of idle hydraulic equipment is always a bear. I believe part of that is due to stuff that is already worn out though. Dave Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Do you what hydraulic means? I'm think it is French for LEAK! I hate > friggin hydraulics. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful > and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in > stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule > 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the > boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet > which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. > > I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once > you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the > service life is waaaaaaay out there :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really > knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I > bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at > Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs > for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which > fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a > hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly > to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 > (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for > now. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > > automotive or trucks units? > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself > loose and > > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > > night. :) > > > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't > done > > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron > had been > > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant > wife - > > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was > about to > > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help > him set > > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had > down was > > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to > leave a > > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his > floating gin > > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent > told > > > him that he was covered." > > > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 15222|15214|2007-10-29 21:22:00|Tom|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|Hey Seer Let me ask you this, how much you spending to try and save on diesel? Seems to me electric motor, battery banks. genset and all the fidlin to try and make it work would buy a lot of diesel, upkeep aint gonna be cheap eather. IMHO fix what needs to be fixed "follow the KISS rule" and go sailing. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 10:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck > The following is a response I just received (damned promptly too :) > from Thunderstruck in California (they have been building electric > vehicle applications for a looooooong time now). > > Looks like the idea I posted about putting one of their kits on the > shaft is a 'go' :). > seer > > > Letter is as follows: > > "Hi Bruce, > > It sounds like you're on the right track with your ideas. The Mars > system should be able to do as you say, and yes the regen will add > power back to the battery bank- including if you're powering under > your main. If you want regen then you need the Mars motor, but if > you're not worried about regen then the Etek or Perm 132 would work > fine as well- they are a little more powerful, but also have brushed > that wear out over time. > > With regards to installing a Mars motor to a small diesel, I would not > recommend it. The Mars is a 3-phase DC motor and would require a > controller to change the 3-phase into the correct DC to charge the > batteries. Instead, you could use a Perm 132 or Etek as a generator > and I think it would do the trick just fine. > > I hope this helps you along your way. If you have other questions just > let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Good luck- sounds like > a great project. > > -Alex > > -- > Thunderstruck Motors, LLC. > 3200 Dutton Ave #319 > Santa Rosa , CA 95407 > voice 707-575-0353 > fax 707-544-5304 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15223|15164|2007-10-29 21:59:55|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|heheheh, I had em on the Falcon. My experience is do it *right* the first time, do it once...:) I've had good luck :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Do you what hydraulic means? I'm think it is French for LEAK! I hate > friggin hydraulics. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful > and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in > stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule > 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the > boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet > which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. > > I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once > you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the > service life is waaaaaaay out there :) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really > knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I > bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at > Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs > for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which > fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a > hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly > to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 > (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for > now. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > > automotive or trucks units? > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself > loose and > > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > > night. :) > > > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't > done > > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron > had been > > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant > wife - > > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was > about to > > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help > him set > > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had > down was > > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to > leave a > > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his > floating gin > > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent > told > > > him that he was covered." > > > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15224|15164|2007-10-29 22:02:18|seeratlas|Re: Anchoring.|Thanks for heads up :) I had always considered 40 sufficient, but I'll take your advice! seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I wouldn't recommend schedule 40 iron pipe for anything hydraulic. > Schedule 80 should be the minimal in iron and even there you need to > make sure it is suitable for the pressures obtained. > > For schedule 40 ignore any pressure ratings you might find for specific > sizes. The problem is the threaded connections which leave you with a > very thin wall. Granted the duty cycle is very modest in this sort of > application, but cracked threads at the wrong time are very undesirable. > > Dave > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > I've been looking into commercial tractor equipment which is plentiful > > and cheap in this part of the country. Most parts are available in > > stainless also which seems to me the way to go. Substitution schedule > > 40 pipe for flexible hosing from the engine room to the ends of the > > boat solves the rubber hose problem except for just the final few feet > > which makes inspection and repair trivial should that become necessary. > > > > I agree, there are a ton of uses for hydraulic power on a boat once > > you get it set up, and if these tractors are any indication, the > > service life is waaaaaaay out there :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > Seer, > > > > > > No, I didn't have the expertise or experience for that. I really > > knew nothing about hydraulics so had to keep to the text books. I > > bought all the bits and pieces at Princess Auto in Canada and at > > Northern Tool in the states. I used their formulas in their catalogs > > for rpm and gallons per minute and then got the motors and pumps which > > fit the equations. The bronze control valve was bought from a > > hydraulic outfit which specialized in fishing boats and bolted neatly > > to the Charlynn motor. All together, it probably cost me over $1000 > > (1993?) but it is the best money I have spent. > > > > > > I will try to post some pics over the next few days....gotta run for > > now. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:41:29 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > > > Paul, what did you use for the hydraulics? Did you adapt some > > > automotive or trucks units? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I have always used a 45 pound plow with 75 feet of 3/8 chain onto > > > the steel cable and drum winch. The price was right for the anchor > > > and it stores handily on the bow roller. It has let me down a couple > > > of times...usually on a hard bottom it won't dig in or worse it hangs > > > up on a little rock or something and then finally lets go at the worst > > > possible moment. The last few years I have put a 22 pound danforth > > > with 25 feet of 5/16 chain shackled on to the end of the plow when I > > > am in a bad area or expecting bad weather. The whole works can easily > > > be dragged in up to the plow with the anchor winch. The last 25 feet > > > with the danforth can be grabbed with a boat hook and hauled in by > > > hand easily. I have never dragged with the two anchors out but if I > > > had a choice again I would go for one of the newer anchors like a Spade. > > > > > > > > By the way, I consider the anchor winch the single most important > > > thing when it comes to single-handing a boat. You have lots of time > > > to mess around with sails but when anchoring in tight quarters, > > > seconds count. It is great having a powerful winch that can not only > > > pull hard but pull fast. I have adapted Brent's drum winch to be > > > hydraulic. It's got me out of more than one tight spot. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Ben Okopnik > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:46:37 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchoring. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 02:38:15AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > If I remember correctly, on the Falcon I carried about 400feet of > > > > > 7/16ths chain with an 85ish CQR. She'd sometimes be hard to set and > > > > > even after being well dug in, she'd sometimes twist herself > > loose and > > > > > fail to reset when the tide/wind etc. swung me around the other > > > > > direction. That's a lot of fairly heavy chain. Might have held > > > > > something at 17k or so, but the Falcon was 55k. Because of the tidal > > > > > range I'd often lay out 8 to 10 to one scope..I still sweated at > > > night. :) > > > > > > > > Just to draw a comparison - or maybe to tell the folks who haven't > > done > > > > any cruising about what to expect: > > > > > > > > The 56' boat that dragged into the steel home-built in Boqueron > > had been > > > > left by the owner (ex-airline captain, with his flight attendant > > wife - > > > > both of them went visiting her parents in Sweden *during the hurricane > > > > season*) in the care of a local fellow. When hurricane Luis was > > about to > > > > come calling, Jose asked me to run him out to the boat and help > > him set > > > > whatever anchors there were on board (the only anchor they had > > down was > > > > a medium-sized CQR, 45 lb. or so - on a boat that displaced maybe 50k > > > > and had 5' high topsides.) > > > > > > > > We found - after we turned the entire damned boat inside out - ONE > > > > 22-lb. anchor, and a total of 50' of nylon rode (about 5/8", as I > > > > recall.) The owners couldn't be reached - they didn't bother to > > leave a > > > > phone number - but in any case, with a 'cane on the way, there were no > > > > anchors to be bought anywhere in Puerto Rico for love or money. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > A large percentage of the damage during hurricanes is _not_ from your > > > > own tackle not holding; it's from some moron who leaves his > > floating gin > > > > palace on a 5-lb. hook with 1/4" line because "his insurance agent > > told > > > > him that he was covered." > > > > > > > > A steel boat does offer a little more protection against that kind of > > > > idiocy too, but "find a spot away from other boats" is always a top > > > > hurricane strategy for me. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > > > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > http://mail. yahoo.com > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 15225|15214|2007-10-29 23:03:48|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|I have spent a lot of time on the electric boat group and the real draw back I see is not the cost but the limitations of electric drive. The baterties are still lead acid unless you have a lot of money and for electric drive are a poor sorce of power for any range or speed when you need it most. In sail boats they are going with bigger and higher pich props (more drag) and not good enough to realy regen. gear reduction to ceep the motor temp down and forced air cooling of the motor. In the end it is better to just go diesel. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hey Seer Let me ask you this, how much you spending to try and save on > diesel? Seems to me electric motor, battery banks. genset and all the > fidlin to try and make it work would buy a lot of diesel, upkeep aint gonna > be cheap eather. IMHO fix what needs to be fixed "follow the KISS rule" and > go sailing. > Tom > | 15226|15226|2007-10-30 00:15:11|Paul Wilson|Photos uploaded from Opus IV|Hello all, I have made a folder in the photos section showing my sheer legs and hydraulic anchor winch. The folder is called Opus IV. Hopefully the pics of the sheer legs are self-explanatory. The winch may be less clear. The motor is seen with the hoses coming out through the deck. The hoses are wrapped in rubber tape for protection and to prevent leaks down below. The bronze control valve is easy to see mounted on top of the motor. The lever on top powers the motor either in or out. The motor is protected with a piece of PVC pipe. I tried to show the clutch on the winch. The clutch is necessary since the hydraulic motor will not freewheel on its own. Normal procedure is to disengage the clutchand then let the anchor go out. I brake it with an old piece of wood jammed into the space between the frame of the winch and the edge of the drum. Low tech but it is the best brake I have found. Now the tricky to explain part.......There are eight half inch bolts that protude through the side of the drum. A chain sprocket and course gear engages into the gaps formed by the nuts of the bolts. The gear is cut from a steel plate. Very sloppy and crude but it works. The sprocket/gear is free to slide on the axle and pulled in or out to engage or disengage. It is held in the engaged position with a forked plastic block which wedges into the gap formed between the frame and the sprocket when engaged. Not very clear is the aluminum hoop piece which goes to an aluminum bushing/sleeve which is free to rotate independently but still attached to the sprocket and the gear. If the spocket/gear turns when being powered by the hydraulic motor, this piece does not turn. It was a thingamabob obtained from a junk yard so don't ask where to buy one. All this is harder to explain than use. Yeah, I know, its time to change the cable. The cable is cheap so I change it usually every two years. If I found a grease that works it would probably last longer. I use 3/8 inch cable now....I broke 1/4 inch cable once when it got tangled and snubbed short in coral. I also use a soft splice in the cable now instead of a nicropress. I feel it is much safer. The 3/8 is over-kill but I like the extra weight. Cheers, Paul __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15227|15214|2007-10-30 00:21:34|Paul Wilson|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|The last trip I had on Opus IV, I had a fixed schedule and had to motor for 3 1/2 days non-stop due to no wind and my time constraints. I don't know how you could have done that using electric power unless you had one honking big generator. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:02:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck I have spent a lot of time on the electric boat group and the real draw back I see is not the cost but the limitations of electric drive. The baterties are still lead acid unless you have a lot of money and for electric drive are a poor sorce of power for any range or speed when you need it most. In sail boats they are going with bigger and higher pich props (more drag) and not good enough to realy regen. gear reduction to ceep the motor temp down and forced air cooling of the motor. In the end it is better to just go diesel. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hey Seer Let me ask you this, how much you spending to try and save on > diesel? Seems to me electric motor, battery banks. genset and all the > fidlin to try and make it work would buy a lot of diesel, upkeep aint gonna > be cheap eather. IMHO fix what needs to be fixed "follow the KISS rule" and > go sailing. > Tom > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15228|15228|2007-10-30 01:25:55|Paul J. Thompson|Seers Gallant Rig|Hi Seer, Here's some photo's of Aphrodite that will interest you if you have not seen them before, see http://www.svaphrodite.bostekanesthesia.com/index.html If you go to the Junk Rig group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ you will find some posts on the rig. The rig was an attempt to improve on the standard junk rig but it was not particularly successful. It is a lot heavier than the standard Junk but in my experience and that of others, not much if any, better. There is a large weight penalty. I have sailed on a boat with the Gallant rig, an ferrocement Endeavour 45 I think she was call Camelot or Camilla? I am no longer sure. She belonged to a Canadian by the name of Jerry (no longer sure of his surname). I sailed with him in the Fort Meyers Beach area and helped him put the boat into storage that year. As I recall, she sailed about as well as a Junk Rig boat of that type would sail and that was quite acceptable. What I mostly remember is that her interior was rather uniquely uncomfortable. I might have some photo's and will see if I can dig them out. Since you already have the rig, I would go with it. It would not be hard to turn the rig into a normal junk rig if you so decide at a later date. What I would do if I where you is install electric (or hydraulic) winches for the halyards. Hauling up those sails is serious hard work, even with the purchase. It is however the only hard work on the rig as the sheet loads are light and gravity is your friend when it comes to reefing or dropping the sails. Reefing of cause is a pleasure, just as with the Junk Rig. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15229|15214|2007-10-30 09:49:59|seeratlas|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|Jon & Tink :) We'll have to see how it goes but remember, there are lots of ways to have electric drive. If you're jumping into this discussion late, we've covered each in turn. The boys in the electric boats group tend to gravitate towards pure electric drive powered from batteries...that requires a HUGE amount of batteries to get any range when electric is your only source of power. However, that is not what I'm going to do at all. Then there are the diesel-electric setups which pretty much predominate on todays major ships , commercial or navy and have been used for a *lot* of years. These run diesel generators which run the electric motors, the batteries are used more as a buffer if in line between the two. Then there is what I propose to do. I have an oversized diesel for The Pearl. 85hp where design spec is 50. I have room on the shaft to put an 8hp pancake electric with regen capacity, and I have room for lots of batteries, but I will most likely NOT be using lead acid :) more on that later. This system gives me the following. Here's what I get while running the main diesel 1. Full power to the prop 2. Full power to the dc motor on the shaft, which turns the dc motor into a dc generator flowing back thru the controller recharging the main battery bank 3. Full power to the big alternator recharging the engine start bank and 12 volt house bank. 4. Full power to the inverter which lets me run a host of electrical equip(stoves, instruments, lights, computer, whatever) 5. Full heat to the heat exchanger which heats up my substantial shower tank :) 6. Full power to the compressor for my super insulated deep freeze box 7. Full power to the hydraulic pumps for the windlass and aft captstan 8. Full power to the emergency bilge pump which triples as a 1. fire hose pump, and 2. deck and anchor chain/rode washdown pump. 9. Full power to the scuba tank compressor. Ok, now, say I'm trying to sail in 6 knots of wind, and doing maybe 1 or 2.., or I want to glide around in windless conditions without diesel racket...soooo, No main engine, I just dial up the electric dc motor on the shaft and here's what i get: 1. save the drag from the otherwise locked or freewheeling prop by bringing it up to 'speed'..should be at least 1/2 knot. 2. can dial in some more power to kick my speed up to 4 or 5 without using a whole lot of power (electric is far more useful and efficient at low hull speeds) and this is *silent* motorsailing if you will.. 3. I can also manuever very well in near silence around docks etc. as I get full dc motor torque at pretty much any prop rpm, as well as instant reverse by just turning the dial thru *O* and reversing polarity going the other way... 4. AND, I get to do all the above using a totally renewable energy without requiring a diesel engine to be started, unless, I want to also run the genset.. (more below) Ok, about that renewal..Solar panels, Wind Generator, towed water generator and allowing the prop to freewheel while sailing with an abundance of wind will all generate electric back into the battery banks..so as long as I'm not running the DC motor hour after hour..I have a reasonable chance to make a large contribution into the electric "bank" without having to run the main. The DC motor and controller are pretty solid devices. No brushes on the motor so basically one moving part...properly cared for it should outlast the main....only thing to sweat are the bearings which can eventually be replaced if I live that long... Lastly, the genset. I have several ways to go here and I'm waiting to find out what kind of startup power I need to fire up the already on board cruisaire air conditioner :) (its not the small version either:) and, I'm installing one of the spendide washer/dryer combo's (I know, I know, "don't do it, won't last" etc etc.. Well, I've done it before and it worked great. I had a big maytag stack unit on the falcon for 13 years..no failures..and just trust me that it's nice for ME to have when I need it. *most* other people don't and wouldn't want it but i have the room and the power so.. I can just tell you that a *lot* of sailing/boating females consider it (and the shower) the most important piece of equipt. on a boat and I can tell you that whatever makes the woman happy on a boat is pretty much worth doing whatever the expense and effort LOL. The alternative is hell on the water heheheh. The AC will make those unbearable days in the harbor, or at dock a bit more bearable, and besides, it came pretty much free on the boat (broker didn't even know it was there), so what the hell :) Ok, Genset, basically I need whatever is necessary to start up either the AC or the W/D (surge). That will determine size. It also gives me a way of going into straight "Diesel/Electric" mode if something happens to the main..won't be going fast, but I'll be *going*, and given the difference in fuel consumption, with 250 gallons on board, I'll have a helluva motorsailing range. Also lets me charge everything where 1. no sun, 2. no wind, 3. no movement in the water, 4. no shore power etc. Now, its not like I'll have the only boat in the water with this stuff on it. Gensets are fairly common (heheh), mains are even more common :), Batteries, wind gens, towed water gens, and solar panels are not exactly rare either...this is not new rocket science.. soooo, the only thing really unusual is I have an aux DC electric drive that does a helluva lot more than just drive. That's worth the price of admission to me. Cost is less than 1 percent of the value of the boat.. ok I promised more on the batteries...I may have a source for some new tech batteries at reasonable cost that change the whole battery power/storage concept by a BUNCH. Size, weight, power, longevity, safety etc. pretty much throws the whole lead/acid equation out the window. I'll let you know as things develop but at the moment, looking very good. :) Last thing. Remember, One boat, rest of my life. Don't care about resale, going to leave it to my kids..bought this thing nuts inexpensive, and its in far better condition, requiring far less work to complete and with far more equipment than I had thought. We'll just have to see how it all works out. :) Tell you what, when I get it all together, I'll shanghai Ben and Scott (audeojude)and we'll go out and play around with the ship a bit and Ben can write a review for the board with pictures by Scott (pro photographer-seriously good:) assuming we all make it back alive LOL. seer:) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > I have spent a lot of time on the electric boat group and the real draw > back I see is not the cost but the limitations of electric drive. The > baterties are still lead acid unless you have a lot of money and for > electric drive are a poor sorce of power for any range or speed when > you need it most. In sail boats they are going with bigger and higher > pich props (more drag) and not good enough to realy regen. gear > reduction to ceep the motor temp down and forced air cooling of the > motor. In the end it is better to just go diesel. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hey Seer Let me ask you this, how much you spending to try and save > on > > diesel? Seems to me electric motor, battery banks. genset and all > the > > fidlin to try and make it work would buy a lot of diesel, upkeep > aint gonna > > be cheap eather. IMHO fix what needs to be fixed "follow the KISS > rule" and > > go sailing. > > Tom > > > | 15230|15171|2007-10-30 10:01:51|mickeyolaf|Re: steel boat building|I was going to use Treadmaster but this looks better. Treadmaster needs to be epoxied down and recoated for uv damge. It eventually edgelifts as can be seen on older Fisher motorsailors. I wonder how Kiwigrip stands up in the sun on a metal boat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and the owners swear by it: > > http://www.kiwigrip.com/index.html > > It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to use > some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with a > little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a flush > steel deck in south florida :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my > other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to > have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle > trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the > boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of > springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing > at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Carl Anderson > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years > of use. > > > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > expansion > > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > invite > > > corrosion. > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: > 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15231|15214|2007-10-30 10:17:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:49:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: [snip] That's one hell of a lot of money into a "hole in the water"... but if that gives you a "system" that works for you overall, then that's all you can ask for. I see my own setup (52hp diesel, 2kW Honda generator, solar panels, and a wind generator for production, AC (when really needed), lights, and computers on the consumption side) as being pretty close to everything I need - it's served me for a long time now, and I'm satisfied with it. Although I envy you the washer/dryer combo; I agree that lack of these is A Problem when there's a woman on board. :) Shower-wise, by the way: rigging up a small pump feeding a hose + the tip from a garden sprayer is an *awesome* combination, at least in the warm climates where I tend to sail. A long, luxurious shower - I'm talking about my wife washing her long hair, which is always a production - takes about 1 gallon of water, 1.5 max. A regular shower takes about two quarts. The trick is that the sprayer tip gives you a very fine but solid and forceful mist rather than a stream; I've never found anything that works better. Right now, my pump is down, so I'm using the actual sprayer; works almost as well, except for having to pump it up once in a while. Overall, a 2-gallon garden sprayer (painted black, or made of black plastic) is one of the most useful gadgets you can have on a boat. > We'll just have to see how it all works out. :) Tell you what, when I > get it all together, I'll shanghai Ben and Scott (audeojude)and we'll > go out and play around with the ship a bit and Ben can write a review > for the board with pictures by Scott (pro photographer-seriously > good:) assuming we all make it back alive LOL. Please pick a day with some good wind in it (at least 20kt.) I want to see how this thing will perform, with all that weight aboard. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 15232|15228|2007-10-30 10:22:49|seeratlas|Re: Seers Gallant Rig|Thanks for the info Paul :) If you check the "Seer's 44 Schooner" folder in the Files section here, you'll see a couple of pictures of Aphrodite's rig :) She's owned by Carl Bostek and is currently out in Hawaii. He and I have been communicating quite a bit and I spoke to him at length before I bought The Pearl. Up until now, we were the only two we knew about that had gallant rigged boats :) LOL. Our 'club' just increased by 33 percent LOL:) There's also a post by Gavin who sailed a similar boat to your friend Jerry's as well as racing a smaller one in the Solent off England. Carl's site has a lot of photos of the rig, and details problems he's had with trying to figure out how to sail it. He tells me he is still learning and he is experimenting with some modifications we have discussed. I won't know till I get my boat in the water, but I'm trying to find the designer and builder of the rig. I did find Gavin who has recently relocated to France and he's offered to send me a bunch of info and pictures on the rig and how its set up for max efficiency. He did tell me that she raced very well and they had a lot of fun. Gavin is also going to put me in touch with Jack Manners-Spencer, the designer/builder so that should help a lot. From the various descriptions I've managed to find, it appears that Carl's rig was not set up completely or correctly. There are a number of tweaks that Jack developed over the years to tune the rig for max performance that he refers to in several of his writings I've located. No question the rig is heavy, especially on a schooner. I put up a photo in my files section showing my masts laid out. They are massive. Further, the ribs of the sail look very much like what you'd expect inside an aluminum airplane wing. Very stout, very big, no doubt very heavy. :) However, they do NOT look exactly like Carl's. I don't know if you can recall the size of the rig on Jerry's boat but my booms are 19ft long. Dunno bout the other guys' boats and won't know for sure until I get my rig up and standing but quick calculations from mast and boom indicate my rig appears to have somewhere between 1200 and 1500 sq. ft. of sail area...That's pretty stout for a 44. I do know that my boat was sailed by the original owner from New Brunswick to Brazil and back several times without problems by an older guy so it apparently worked for him, and he liked the rig so much he made zero changes once Jack had set it up. We'll just have to see :) And, in any event, I agree; since its there, I'll try and make it work. For what I'm going to do, I think it will, and if not, the masts are perfect for the type of sail I was going to use anyway so either way :) works for me. Do you have any contact info for "Jerry"? How long ago did you sail with him? And any chance you might remember the marina he put up in? Would be great to have another boat closer than Hawaii :) Carl and I have already decided that sooner or later we'd find an ocean we could both be in at the same time LOL :>) Oh, Aphrodite is just under 38k displacement. 46' and no lightweight:)I have no idea of what The Pearl is going to weigh in at but I would guess mid 30's from the construction and teak interior. Where are you now Paul? Still in south Florida? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > Here's some photo's of Aphrodite that will interest you if you have not > seen them before, see http://www.svaphrodite.bostekanesthesia.com/index.html > > If you go to the Junk Rig group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ > you will find some posts on the rig. > > The rig was an attempt to improve on the standard junk rig but it was > not particularly successful. It is a lot heavier than the standard Junk > but in my experience and that of others, not much if any, better. There > is a large weight penalty. > > I have sailed on a boat with the Gallant rig, an ferrocement Endeavour > 45 I think she was call Camelot or Camilla? I am no longer sure. She > belonged to a Canadian by the name of Jerry (no longer sure of his > surname). I sailed with him in the Fort Meyers Beach area and helped him > put the boat into storage that year. As I recall, she sailed about as > well as a Junk Rig boat of that type would sail and that was quite > acceptable. What I mostly remember is that her interior was rather > uniquely uncomfortable. > > I might have some photo's and will see if I can dig them out. > > Since you already have the rig, I would go with it. It would not be hard > to turn the rig into a normal junk rig if you so decide at a later date. > What I would do if I where you is install electric (or hydraulic) > winches for the halyards. Hauling up those sails is serious hard work, > even with the purchase. It is however the only hard work on the rig as > the sheet loads are light and gravity is your friend when it comes to > reefing or dropping the sails. Reefing of cause is a pleasure, just as > with the Junk Rig. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 15233|15226|2007-10-30 10:30:27|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Photos uploaded from Opus IV|Paul, Do you remember the horsepower or torque for your motor? Also what reduction ratio do you have? Do you have plenty of power? Could you pull your boat out of the mud with it? I have been thinking about the anchor winch for my schooner. ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:15:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Photos uploaded from Opus IV Hello all, I have made a folder in the photos section showing my sheer legs and hydraulic anchor winch. The folder is called Opus IV. Hopefully the pics of the sheer legs are self-explanatory. The winch may be less clear. The motor is seen with the hoses coming out through the deck. The hoses are wrapped in rubber tape for protection and to prevent leaks down below. The bronze control valve is easy to see mounted on top of the motor. The lever on top powers the motor either in or out. The motor is protected with a piece of PVC pipe. I tried to show the clutch on the winch. The clutch is necessary since the hydraulic motor will not freewheel on its own. Normal procedure is to disengage the clutchand then let the anchor go out. I brake it with an old piece of wood jammed into the space between the frame of the winch and the edge of the drum. Low tech but it is the best brake I have found. Now the tricky to explain part........There are eight half inch bolts that protude through the side of the drum. A chain sprocket and course gear engages into the gaps formed by the nuts of the bolts. The gear is cut from a steel plate. Very sloppy and crude but it works. The sprocket/gear is free to slide on the axle and pulled in or out to engage or disengage. It is held in the engaged position with a forked plastic block which wedges into the gap formed between the frame and the sprocket when engaged. Not very clear is the aluminum hoop piece which goes to an aluminum bushing/sleeve which is free to rotate independently but still attached to the sprocket and the gear. If the spocket/gear turns when being powered by the hydraulic motor, this piece does not turn. It was a thingamabob obtained from a junk yard so don't ask where to buy one. All this is harder to explain than use. Yeah, I know, its time to change the cable. The cable is cheap so I change it usually every two years. If I found a grease that works it would probably last longer.. I use 3/8 inch cable now....I broke 1/4 inch cable once when it got tangled and snubbed short in coral. I also use a soft splice in the cable now instead of a nicropress. I feel it is much safer. The 3/8 is over-kill but I like the extra weight. Cheers, Paul ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15234|15171|2007-10-30 10:32:45|seeratlas|Re: steel boat building|-I may take a shot at this too. Sent off for some samples and got an immediate reply and some installation tips from the guy handling this stuff. Seems like a good find so far. :) I'll let you know what the samples look like when they show up later this week. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I was going to use Treadmaster but this looks better. Treadmaster > needs to be epoxied down and recoated for uv damge. It eventually > edgelifts as can be seen on older Fisher motorsailors. > I wonder how Kiwigrip stands up in the sun on a metal boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and > the owners swear by it: > > > > http://www.kiwigrip.com/index.html > > > > It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to > use > > some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with > a > > little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a > flush > > steel deck in south florida :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my > > other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to > > have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great > circle > > trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the > > boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a > bit of > > springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when > sailing > > at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Carl Anderson > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great > difference > > > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > > > > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > > > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan > of > > > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years > > of use. > > > > > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything > mixed > > > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > , Alex Christie > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to > touch > > > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as > bare > > > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). > Wood on > > > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > > expansion > > > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to > absorb > > > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > > invite > > > > corrosion. > > > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using > granulated cork > > > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: > > 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15235|15214|2007-10-30 10:47:23|seeratlas|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|Ben, Yeah that tank sprayer thing is a great tip. I had one with a variable spray nozzle made of stainless and painted black. Was useful for all manner of things. Especially when you're out at a secluded anchorage and skinny dipping etc. Also, if rigged with several sets of mounts, (one inside shower stall, one on deck near swim ladder, and maybe one on deck for maximum sun exposure on the tank to heat it up..) its hella fun for waking sleeping crew or sunbathing feminine types laying out on the foredeck LOL>:) Carl tells me Aphrodite is a witch downwind in a fresh breeze but his hull is a lot different than mine. He's got a 10k lb centerboard, well more like a giant daggerboard really, that he can lower down to 8 feet. I know one thing, Brewer designed damned few hulls that won't get up and go given enough wind and sail area, and he spent a lot of time and effort on this one. Sitting on the hard, she looks pretty good to me, and you can see how she sits on the water in the posted photo. In any event, we'll just have to wait and see if The Pearl can live up to her namesake LOL. Should be fun. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:49:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > [snip] That's one hell of a lot of money into a "hole in the water"... > but if that gives you a "system" that works for you overall, then that's > all you can ask for. I see my own setup (52hp diesel, 2kW Honda > generator, solar panels, and a wind generator for production, AC (when > really needed), lights, and computers on the consumption side) as being > pretty close to everything I need - it's served me for a long time now, > and I'm satisfied with it. Although I envy you the washer/dryer combo; I > agree that lack of these is A Problem when there's a woman on board. :) > > Shower-wise, by the way: rigging up a small pump feeding a hose + the > tip from a garden sprayer is an *awesome* combination, at least in the > warm climates where I tend to sail. A long, luxurious shower - I'm > talking about my wife washing her long hair, which is always a > production - takes about 1 gallon of water, 1.5 max. A regular shower > takes about two quarts. The trick is that the sprayer tip gives you a > very fine but solid and forceful mist rather than a stream; I've never > found anything that works better. Right now, my pump is down, so I'm > using the actual sprayer; works almost as well, except for having to > pump it up once in a while. Overall, a 2-gallon garden sprayer (painted > black, or made of black plastic) is one of the most useful gadgets you > can have on a boat. > > > We'll just have to see how it all works out. :) Tell you what, when I > > get it all together, I'll shanghai Ben and Scott (audeojude)and we'll > > go out and play around with the ship a bit and Ben can write a review > > for the board with pictures by Scott (pro photographer-seriously > > good:) assuming we all make it back alive LOL. > > Please pick a day with some good wind in it (at least 20kt.) I want to > see how this thing will perform, with all that weight aboard. :) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15236|15214|2007-10-30 11:10:37|seeratlas|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|Oh, Ben, check your email/pm. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ben, > > Yeah that tank sprayer thing is a great tip. I had one with a variable > spray nozzle made of stainless and painted black. Was useful for all > manner of things. > Especially when you're out at a secluded anchorage and skinny dipping > etc. Also, if rigged with several sets of mounts, (one inside shower > stall, one on deck near swim ladder, and maybe one on deck for maximum > sun exposure on the tank to heat it up..) its hella fun for waking > sleeping crew or sunbathing feminine types laying out on the foredeck > LOL>:) > > Carl tells me Aphrodite is a witch downwind in a fresh breeze but his > hull is a lot different than mine. He's got a 10k lb centerboard, well > more like a giant daggerboard really, that he can lower down to 8 > feet. I know one thing, Brewer designed damned few hulls that won't > get up and go given enough wind and sail area, and he spent a lot of > time and effort on this one. Sitting on the hard, she looks pretty > good to me, and you can see how she sits on the water in the posted > photo. In any event, we'll just have to wait and see if The Pearl can > live up to her namesake LOL. Should be fun. > > seer > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:49:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > [snip] That's one hell of a lot of money into a "hole in the water"... > > but if that gives you a "system" that works for you overall, then that's > > all you can ask for. I see my own setup (52hp diesel, 2kW Honda > > generator, solar panels, and a wind generator for production, AC (when > > really needed), lights, and computers on the consumption side) as being > > pretty close to everything I need - it's served me for a long time now, > > and I'm satisfied with it. Although I envy you the washer/dryer combo; I > > agree that lack of these is A Problem when there's a woman on board. :) > > > > Shower-wise, by the way: rigging up a small pump feeding a hose + the > > tip from a garden sprayer is an *awesome* combination, at least in the > > warm climates where I tend to sail. A long, luxurious shower - I'm > > talking about my wife washing her long hair, which is always a > > production - takes about 1 gallon of water, 1.5 max. A regular shower > > takes about two quarts. The trick is that the sprayer tip gives you a > > very fine but solid and forceful mist rather than a stream; I've never > > found anything that works better. Right now, my pump is down, so I'm > > using the actual sprayer; works almost as well, except for having to > > pump it up once in a while. Overall, a 2-gallon garden sprayer (painted > > black, or made of black plastic) is one of the most useful gadgets you > > can have on a boat. > > > > > We'll just have to see how it all works out. :) Tell you what, when I > > > get it all together, I'll shanghai Ben and Scott (audeojude)and we'll > > > go out and play around with the ship a bit and Ben can write a review > > > for the board with pictures by Scott (pro photographer-seriously > > > good:) assuming we all make it back alive LOL. > > > > Please pick a day with some good wind in it (at least 20kt.) I want to > > see how this thing will perform, with all that weight aboard. :) > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15237|15214|2007-10-30 11:37:20|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|"...towed water generator and allowing the prop to freewheel while sailing with an abundance of wind will all generate electric back into the battery banks." Is the towed generator just redundant to generating off the main prop or is there some performance or convenience advantage? --Doug J ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15238|15214|2007-10-30 12:02:44|seeratlas|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|Good question. In my case my preliminary thinking is that using one of Brent's designed towed prop/truck alternator rigs, that would give me 12 volts directly into the 12 volt banks. The DC motor will be tied into different banks of much higher voltage, unknown at the moment, but somewhere around 48 volts or so. Since its easy and cheap for me to rig up one of Brent's deals, I'll fool around with it and see. Besides, if I can find a polished stainless outboard prop for the towed part, it will double as a 'raiser' or 'teaser' in the sport fishing parlance :) heheheh. I'm setting up to take advantage of the fishing in and around the gulf stream:) as I have a ton of tackle and will be setting up for my brother who is a gonzo good fisherman. He's the kind of guy that pulls in near record fish with a bent nail stuck thru a feather type. Nothing short of amazing. I could tell you stories... LOL. Well here, just one quick one. He asked me once to rig him up a fighting chair on the Falcon, and it just so happened with that design I had room to do that. Well, made for a comfy seat just watching the trolling poles and downriggers we had out for salmon but at the end of the day, we pulled into the harbor there in Baranoff (sp?) where we'd once caught a pretty good sized (240 or so) halibut on a previous boat. Mike (my bro) said he'd like to try out the chair on a "BIG " fish, so after we stowed the salmon gear, we brought out what I call "THE MEAT POLE" with the huge marlin class Penn on it, 80lb dacron line with big azz wire leader, and he chopped a 20 lb silver in half and put it on a treble hook about the size of your fist. "No sense fooling around with anything not big enough to swallow it" he said...yeah right LOL. Anyway, I motored over just below the falls and he got in the chair and tossed the bait overboard. We just drifted around for maybe ten minutes then the line went tight, just like you'd hooked bottom..but it wasn't the bottom LOL. :) Bout an hour later we got the flattie to the surface for the first time, bout the size of a good front door :), teeth like a shark, and mad as hell. When we got him back up the third time, ended up putting two rounds from a 12 gauge into his head before we were ready to pull him on board, (serious teeth and a flap that would break your legs) but we had a problem. We couldn't lift him. so we dragged him back over to the dock and got a big iron gaff thru him and 3 of us dragged him up onto the dock. If you ever get to Baranoff, the proprietor of the little shop and cabins there used to have a picture of that fish he put up on the wall along with a slightly bigger one caught years before in the same place. Don't know exactly what he weighed but three big men couldn't hold him completely off the dock. I'd guess somewhere between 340 and 390 or so. Bout 7 feet long, and probably 5 or a bit mroe wide. One serious fish. Fed everyone in the harbor that night, and the rest we packed in ice and gave to a young indian boy in a motorized canoe headed back to his town. I'm telling you the filets on that fish were about 5 inches thick LOL. And that's NOTHING compared to some of what's running around out in the Gulf Stream off Florida :) In any event, don't know how I got on to fish, but the towed prop setup is easy and cheap so why not :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > "...towed water generator and allowing the prop to freewheel while sailing with an > > abundance of wind will all generate electric back into the battery > > banks." > > Is the towed generator just redundant to generating off the main prop or is there some performance or convenience advantage? > > --Doug J > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15239|15171|2007-10-30 12:17:48|Ray|Re: steel boat building|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > Colin > I've seen the cork stuff used in office-building floors - is this what you're talking about? Mebbe I'm being simple and missing something obvious, but, it seems that it too, would be prone to the same moisture absorption problems as teak?| 15240|15171|2007-10-30 12:27:06|seeratlas|Re: steel boat building|Ray, I'm with you on this. Just tossing the concept around in my mind seems that several problems are immediately apparent. First, whatever encapsulating paint you use is going to be seriously stressed as the cork degrades from UV, water, and organic influences and leaves pockets etc. that will break down under friction eventually leading to penetration to the underlying substrate under the nonskid at which point, you will have to redo the surface. Might be nice for a while but i would think it will need a lot of maintenance seems to me, especially in high traffic areas. I've never tried it tho, so just speculation, but at least its reasonable speculation :) hehehe seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > I've seen the cork stuff used in office-building floors - is this what > you're talking about? > > Mebbe I'm being simple and missing something obvious, but, it seems > that it too, would be prone to the same moisture absorption problems as > teak? > | 15241|15241|2007-10-30 12:51:06|seeratlas|Kiwigrip Rep coming to Origamiboats|Just wanted to let everyone know that I've been told by the guy who handles the kiwi non slip coating that Paul was talking about, that he is going to come onto the group so that he could answer any questions we might want to ask. Seems to be a very helpful fellow with a lot of information about what works and doesn't on metal decks and houses. In any event, keep an eye out :) seer| 15242|15171|2007-10-30 12:59:00|Alex Christie|Re: steel boat building|I think he meant the cork is little tiny bits, not the sheets used in office floors. Broken walnut shells work too. The deck coating on my other 36 was possibly bits of hard rubber. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > Colin > I've seen the cork stuff used in office-building floors - is this what you're talking about? Mebbe I'm being simple and missing something obvious, but, it seems that it too, would be prone to the same moisture absorption problems as teak? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1098 - Release Date: 29/10/2007 9:28 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15243|15171|2007-10-30 13:53:27|Paul Wilson|Re: steel boat building|I have seen it on both fiberglass and metal boats after about 6? years and it looked great. There was no chalking like many epoxies. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:01:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building I was going to use Treadmaster but this looks better. Treadmaster needs to be epoxied down and recoated for uv damge. It eventually edgelifts as can be seen on older Fisher motorsailors. I wonder how Kiwigrip stands up in the sun on a metal boat. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and the owners swear by it: > > http://www.kiwigrip .com/index. html > > It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to use > some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with a > little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a flush > steel deck in south florida :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my > other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to > have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle > trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the > boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of > springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing > at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Carl Anderson > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years > of use. > > > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > , Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > expansion > > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > invite > > > corrosion. > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: > 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15244|15226|2007-10-30 14:42:44|Paul Wilson|Re: Photos uploaded from Opus IV|Hi Jim, Here is the data I have on the winch and motor: Hydraulic Pump Barnes Gear Pump Northern Tool Item# 10575-C09 CCW Rotation SAE 2 Bolt �A� Flange 0.97 Cubic Inch 7.5 GPM at 1800 RPM 15.0 GPM at 3600 RPM Max 4000 RPM � Inch Shaft, 3/16 Inch Keyway 4 1/2 Inch Pulley Anchor Winch Motor Danfoss P.N. 151-2129 Princess Auto P.N. 1220631 23.8 Cubic Inch 1 Inch Shaft with Woodruff Key 4 Bolt SAE �A� Flange Mount 10 GPM at 1000 PSI- 95 RPM, 3000 Inch-Lb torque 15 GPM at 1000 PSI- 157 RPM, 2500 Inch-Lb torque 1250 Max PSI Weight 16 pounds? I must be loosing my mind since I thought the motor was a Char-lynn but I have Danfoss written down. The control valve has Turnbull Marine stamped on it. That's all I know about it. I had bought the wrong motor and had to adapt the valve to fit. It would have been better to use a motor with O-ring fittings instead of pipe thread. There are the normal spin-on filters, strainer, over-pressure bypass and a 2 and half gallon reservoir. Gauge is optional. I would go with a bigger reservoir if you had room. It will run cooler. I use series 40 SS chain on the winch. The 4 and half inch pulley on the pump is belted to the pulley on the front of the engine crank which is probably 5 inch. The winch motor is about 3 or 4 to 1 ratio. I run the engine at about 1000 rpm when I am using the winch and the cable comes in at about 1 foot a second. Fast but not too fast. You can control the speed with the valve if you want but I normally only do this for the last bit as it comes over the bow roller. The biggest problem with this set-up is that it is too powerful. I have bent anchors with it and twisted the mount holding the motor more than once. The motor is now mounted on a half inch plate on the back of the winch and it hasn't twisted again. Pulling an anchor out of the mud is no problem. I had a problem when corrosion on the motor shaft which took out the O-ring seal. The shaft will corrode since it is made of steel so I now have a rubber damn sealing it and holding grease around the shaft. Lots of grease works wonders. That's it! Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Ragsdale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:30:08 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Photos uploaded from Opus IV Paul, Do you remember the horsepower or torque for your motor? Also what reduction ratio do you have? Do you have plenty of power? Could you pull your boat out of the mud with it? I have been thinking about the anchor winch for my schooner. ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:15:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Photos uploaded from Opus IV Hello all, I have made a folder in the photos section showing my sheer legs and hydraulic anchor winch. The folder is called Opus IV. Hopefully the pics of the sheer legs are self-explanatory. The winch may be less clear. The motor is seen with the hoses coming out through the deck. The hoses are wrapped in rubber tape for protection and to prevent leaks down below. The bronze control valve is easy to see mounted on top of the motor. The lever on top powers the motor either in or out. The motor is protected with a piece of PVC pipe. I tried to show the clutch on the winch. The clutch is necessary since the hydraulic motor will not freewheel on its own. Normal procedure is to disengage the clutchand then let the anchor go out. I brake it with an old piece of wood jammed into the space between the frame of the winch and the edge of the drum. Low tech but it is the best brake I have found. Now the tricky to explain part........ There are eight half inch bolts that protude through the side of the drum. A chain sprocket and course gear engages into the gaps formed by the nuts of the bolts. The gear is cut from a steel plate. Very sloppy and crude but it works. The sprocket/gear is free to slide on the axle and pulled in or out to engage or disengage. It is held in the engaged position with a forked plastic block which wedges into the gap formed between the frame and the sprocket when engaged. Not very clear is the aluminum hoop piece which goes to an aluminum bushing/sleeve which is free to rotate independently but still attached to the sprocket and the gear. If the spocket/gear turns when being powered by the hydraulic motor, this piece does not turn. It was a thingamabob obtained from a junk yard so don't ask where to buy one. All this is harder to explain than use. Yeah, I know, its time to change the cable. The cable is cheap so I change it usually every two years. If I found a grease that works it would probably last longer.. I use 3/8 inch cable now....I broke 1/4 inch cable once when it got tangled and snubbed short in coral. I also use a soft splice in the cable now instead of a nicropress. I feel it is much safer. The 3/8 is over-kill but I like the extra weight. Cheers, Paul ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15245|15226|2007-10-30 15:47:55|Paul J. Thompson|Re Brents Winch.|Guys, I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the winch but the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details in his plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I have seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has been of help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? If someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. Lastly when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort it's self out. Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there new info in it? Thanks in advance :-) Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15246|15226|2007-10-30 17:28:03|Paul Wilson|Re: Re Brents Winch.|The bearings on mine are relatively sloppy and made from PVC pipe slid inside between the two pipes. The outer pipe distorts when you weld on the frame so sloppy is good. You could use a little bit of grease but you could also leave it dry if you want. So far the PVC bushings have lasted 15 years. Brent's low tech way is the way to go. I feed the wire in by hand as it comes in. It has to be neatly wound if you want all the cable and chain to fit neatly on the drum. I think if you just let it go on its own it would end up in a snag. I also like to keep as much gear on the drum as I can so neater is better. I keep a glove handy so I don't get grease on my hands. I will let Brent answer about the scantlings....;). I am curious, I also have a very old edition of Brent's book. I bought it when it first came out. I hear a lot of references to items not in my book. Brent, what am I missing? Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:46:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re Brents Winch. Guys, I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the winch but the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details in his plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I have seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has been of help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? If someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. Lastly when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort it's self out. Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there new info in it? Thanks in advance :-) Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 15247|15226|2007-10-30 17:50:14|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Photos uploaded from Opus IV|Hi Paul, Thanks for the photo's. You have done a great job and kept things nice and simple. I had to study the photo's for a bit, but the photo's coupled with your written description make it all clear. A very elegant low cost solution. I will borrow your method of making a dog clutch for my own winch but will probably use an electric motor as I have a brand new Maxwell VWC3500 lying around. I am thinking of adapting it, will use motor and gearbox. I note that you are using galvanised wire on your winch, any particular reason - apart from costs? Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Here is the data I have on the winch and motor: > Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15248|15248|2007-10-30 18:09:26|Tom|interesting crack|Hello all interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid lead behind the weld. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15249|15249|2007-10-30 18:41:28|Tom|water based epoxy|Anyone have any experiance with water based epoxy? I didnt even know they made it. I was at the industrial supply place this monning and they had a couple gallons they wanted to get rid of for $20 a gallon, dont recall what brand it was but it was a 4 to 1 mix and water based. No I didnt buy it, sticking to the epoxy I started with. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15250|15248|2007-10-30 19:40:38|David A. Frantz|Re: interesting crack|Interesting problem! The first thing that comes to mind is did you inspect the weld before pouring the lead? As to the cracking keepin mind that welded metal shrinks. Actually many metals shrink after being heated up. The you have the issue of compatible welding rod. With the poured in lead I doubt you have many good options now for repair. Your Mig might work if you can minimize heat input, with the idea of sealing the crack and then welding over. In any event the low melting point of lead and the possibility for capillary action will make this a tough repair. Dave Tom wrote: > > Hello all > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had about a > 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up and v'd > it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd welding it in > letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done simular welds > 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and getting a cap > welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and I didnt get to > pressure test. any way came home today and looked there is a crack > about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded in so I grabed the > grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, grind it smooth and > the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 times now and its back > again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first place, didnt cool it > with water, it was about 80 degree when I poured. Well I am going to > dig out the mig and try it that way and see what happens, if that dont > work not sure what to do with solid lead behind the weld. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15251|15226|2007-10-30 20:37:42|Paul Wilson|Re: Photos uploaded from Opus IV|Thanks and no problem, I just use galvanized wire for the cost. I have been able to buy galvanized cable in Fiji and Samoa when others were ordering chain from overseas at great cost. If they had the size I want I would probably use this.......http://www.brunton-shaw.co.uk/composite.html I have seen a couple of boats use the Brunton Shaw plastic impregnated wire for standing rigging. It was very impressive stuff. The people who used it for rigging said it was cheaper than normal stainless rigging but I am not sure by how much. Brent told me once to get old stainless wire for the anchor winch but I have never found it for a good price. I'm not willing to use 1/4 inch wire anymore having had it break. 7 x 19 in the larger sizes is hard to find. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:50:13 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Photos uploaded from Opus IV Hi Paul, Thanks for the photo's. You have done a great job and kept things nice and simple. I had to study the photo's for a bit, but the photo's coupled with your written description make it all clear. A very elegant low cost solution. I will borrow your method of making a dog clutch for my own winch but will probably use an electric motor as I have a brand new Maxwell VWC3500 lying around. I am thinking of adapting it, will use motor and gearbox. I note that you are using galvanised wire on your winch, any particular reason - apart from costs? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 15252|15248|2007-10-30 20:44:48|Tom|Re: interesting crack|Dave To be honest no I didnt check it close, after welding hit it with wire wheel and it looked ok. Your method with the mig is what I did. V'd deep, did vertical up spot and go spot and go then ground out not as deep did it again, ground about 1/2" wide shallow and ran 4 downhand passes to fill, ground somewhat level and no more cracking yet. I put some cheap primer on it and tommorow I will take a hammer to it, if it dont crack then should be good to go. First welded it with 1/8" 6011 rods, tryed first repairs with same Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Frantz" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] interesting crack > Interesting problem! The first thing that comes to mind is did you > inspect the weld before pouring the lead? > > As to the cracking keepin mind that welded metal shrinks. Actually > many metals shrink after being heated up. The you have the issue of > compatible welding rod. > > With the poured in lead I doubt you have many good options now for > repair. Your Mig might work if you can minimize heat input, with the > idea of sealing the crack and then welding over. In any event the low > melting point of lead and the possibility for capillary action will make > this a tough repair. > > Dave > > > Tom wrote: >> >> Hello all >> interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had about a >> 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up and v'd >> it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd welding it in >> letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done simular welds >> 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and getting a cap >> welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and I didnt get to >> pressure test. any way came home today and looked there is a crack >> about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded in so I grabed the >> grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, grind it smooth and >> the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 times now and its back >> again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first place, didnt cool it >> with water, it was about 80 degree when I poured. Well I am going to >> dig out the mig and try it that way and see what happens, if that dont >> work not sure what to do with solid lead behind the weld. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15253|15248|2007-10-30 23:00:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: interesting crack|On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 07:40:27PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Interesting problem! The first thing that comes to mind is did you > inspect the weld before pouring the lead? > > As to the cracking keepin mind that welded metal shrinks. Actually > many metals shrink after being heated up. The you have the issue of > compatible welding rod. > > With the poured in lead I doubt you have many good options now for > repair. Your Mig might work if you can minimize heat input, with the > idea of sealing the crack and then welding over. In any event the low > melting point of lead and the possibility for capillary action will make > this a tough repair. If either capillary action or differential expansion rate is the problem, you could handle it this way: cut out a generous piece around the area with the crack, dig out a little lead so that there's no contact between the steel and the lead, then fit a piece into the cutout and weld it. Seems like that would take care of it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15254|15248|2007-10-31 00:44:51|jim_both|Re: interesting crack|I had virtually the identical problem when trying to weld a plug in my keel after I had poured the lead. I'm pretty sure lead was contaminating the weld zone, and after several unsuccessful attempts I finally cleared the area of lead behind the plug and that worked out just fine. Cheers, Jim > Hello all > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid lead behind the weld. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15255|15226|2007-10-31 01:29:45|kingsknight4life|Re: Re Brents Winch.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Guys, > > I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the winch but > the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details in his > plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I have > seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has been of > help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the > scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on > stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? If > someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. Lastly > when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort it's > self out. > > Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there new > info in it? > > Thanks in advance :-) > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > Hi Paul Last year Brent and I built one for my boat. Well mostly he built it and I helped. lol This is what I remember as my boat is on the coast now, and I haven't seen it for almost a year. :( All the cross braces were made from sched. 40 SS pipe, 1-1.5" OD (outer diam.) The "cheeks" or side plates were from plate that I think was 1/8" thick (maybe 3/16?)and the gear was 3/8" plate. All stuff was bought at scrap yards or scrounged so we used "what we had", that's why it is hard to remember the exact scantlings. Pauls and stops were 1/2" and bearings were made from pvc hose barbs, that we found. I know they didn't quite fit and are hard as hell to file down. I tried for 1/2 and hour with a rasp and barely scratched them so I had to break out the power tools. lol Rowland PS I think Brent said he used his foot to guide the cable as he was retieiving it.| 15256|15248|2007-10-31 01:50:09|David A. Frantz|Re: interesting crack|I tend to agree that Lead contamination is now part of the problem. The only problem I see with the digging out of the lead approach is that you nw have an air space behind the patch plate. Eventually it would fill with water but might find enough moisture for a bit of rust. The only other thing that I could suggest is a large patch plate to cover all. Weld this in place without any of the seams coming into contact with the fresh weld. The problem is you still have potential for moisture to get behind the plate. It will also look obvious. Dave jim_both wrote: > > I had virtually the identical problem when trying to weld a plug in > my keel after I had poured the lead. I'm pretty sure lead was > contaminating the weld zone, and after several unsuccessful attempts > I finally cleared the area of lead behind the plug and that worked > out just fine. > Cheers, Jim > > > Hello all > > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had > about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up > and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd > welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done > simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and > getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and > I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked > there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded > in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, > grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 > times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first > place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I > poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and > see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid > lead behind the weld. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 15257|15248|2007-10-31 02:00:34|Aaron Williams|Re: interesting crack|Tom Did you try welding with just 3/32 7018 ? Aaron "David A. Frantz" wrote: I tend to agree that Lead contamination is now part of the problem. The only problem I see with the digging out of the lead approach is that you nw have an air space behind the patch plate. Eventually it would fill with water but might find enough moisture for a bit of rust. The only other thing that I could suggest is a large patch plate to cover all. Weld this in place without any of the seams coming into contact with the fresh weld. The problem is you still have potential for moisture to get behind the plate. It will also look obvious. Dave jim_both wrote: > > I had virtually the identical problem when trying to weld a plug in > my keel after I had poured the lead. I'm pretty sure lead was > contaminating the weld zone, and after several unsuccessful attempts > I finally cleared the area of lead behind the plug and that worked > out just fine. > Cheers, Jim > > > Hello all > > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had > about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up > and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd > welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done > simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and > getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and > I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked > there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded > in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, > grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 > times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first > place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I > poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and > see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid > lead behind the weld. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15258|15258|2007-10-31 02:21:35|kiwigrip|KiwiGrip Answers|Hello Origamiboaters - Mr. Seeratlas invited me to join your group to field questions about our KiwiGrip non-skid coatings. I'm new to this forum business so please forgive me if I violate etiquette. KiwiGrip, known as "Don't Slip" is very popular in New Zealand where Barry Whalley, a paint chemist for BM Pacific, LTD, invented it 15 years ago. We used it on our Oyster 48 in early 2005 and, after a year living aboard and 12,000 miles sailing time, the stuff has proven itself. We chose KiwiGrip because I've never had good luck with additives mixed or sprayed with paint overcoats. They just don't seem to hold up under the rigors of several racing seasons. We also wanted a more aggressive texture than additives could offer. The immediate results are stunning but the durability is what really stands out. After plenty of hard use, we removed our life raft a few weeks ago and I can't notice any more wear in our high traffic areas than where the raft has been protecting the surface for the past couple years. I think most of you are metal boat enthusiasts and have questions about application of KG on metal surfaces. For steel and aluminum which are plagued with corrosion challenges, a good primer- barrier is important to protect the metal. KG sticks to any surface that's been scuffed a bit with anything from scotch pads to 60-grit sand paper. It'll even stick like crazy to very smooth, polished surfaces if you let it bake in the sun for a couple of months. (Don't ask me how I know this, the wife is still mad at me). KG will get a very good bond to the bare metal as well - we have a customer in NZ who uses it on stainless steel swim ladders. For aluminum, we're currently in month 7 of a year-long test at Kvichak Industries here in Seattle. Kvichak makes commercial and military aluminum boats and ships. After 4 months, unscientific peel tests showed that our KG had bonded to the bare aluminum better than the Far West primer they fancy. Nevertheless, use your favorite primer to protect your precious metal from the elements. KG will bond well to any primer. For those who subject their aluminum to extreme temperature swings, here's what I can share. The KiwiGrip that I applied to a sheet of wax paper 2 years ago looks like a floppy membrane. After 2 years, I can still flex it tight around a pencil, back and forth, and it remains supple. If I crease it hard between my fingernails, it'll crack. I've applied KG to a bar of 6061 aluminum and baked it in the oven at 220F, cycling it several times with no effect. The acrylic coating sets up hard but remains ductile and compliant enough that it can withstand the torture of a twisting pounding hull beating to weather and running hard in storm conditions. Will KG comply with the thermal expansion and contraction of an aluminum boat that winters in the arctic and summers in Death Valley? I don't know. But I'm happy to run a test if someone can give me some temperature extremes. I do know that aluminum really moves in these conditions and most coatings struggle to keep up. I hope this isn't too much for a casual introduction. Please come back to me with any questions that aren't covered on our website (www.kiwigrip.com) Cheers for now, Willy Stiggelbout, Pachena, LLC. 206-306-2222| 15259|15226|2007-10-31 02:34:26|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Re Brents Winch.|Thanks Rowland, I am beginning to form a picture :-) kingsknight4life wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the > winch but >> the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details > in his >> plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15260|15214|2007-10-31 05:31:35|sae140|Re: Electric Drive Info, Letter from Thunderstruck|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 01:49:59PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Shower-wise, by the way: rigging up a small pump feeding a hose + the > tip from a garden sprayer is an *awesome* combination, at least in the > warm climates where I tend to sail. A long, luxurious shower - I'm > talking about my wife washing her long hair, which is always a > production - takes about 1 gallon of water, 1.5 max. A regular shower > takes about two quarts. The trick is that the sprayer tip gives you a > very fine but solid and forceful mist rather than a stream; I've never > found anything that works better. Right now, my pump is down, so I'm > using the actual sprayer; works almost as well, except for having to > pump it up once in a while. If your pump is down, try hauling a container of warm water (with a small bore hose attached) half-way up the mast and let Isaac Newton take care of the pressure ... Colin| 15261|15226|2007-10-31 06:59:56|seeratlas|Re: Re Brents Winch.|Gord built a floating stainless pressure plate that rides the drum as the cable is retrieved thus holding it against the previous wrap. We use those in 4x4 winching and with a good spring to develop sufficient tension it works well ;) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the > winch but > > the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details > in his > > plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I > have > > seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has > been of > > help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the > > scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on > > stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? > If > > someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. > Lastly > > when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort > it's > > self out. > > > > Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there > new > > info in it? > > > > Thanks in advance :-) > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > Deaf Sailor > > > > Hi Paul > > Last year Brent and I built one for my boat. Well mostly he built it > and I helped. lol This is what I remember as my boat is on the coast > now, and I haven't seen it for almost a year. :( > > All the cross braces were made from sched. 40 SS pipe, 1-1.5" OD > (outer diam.) The "cheeks" or side plates were from plate that I > think was 1/8" thick (maybe 3/16?)and the gear was 3/8" plate. All > stuff was bought at scrap yards or scrounged so we used "what we > had", that's why it is hard to remember the exact scantlings. > > Pauls and stops were 1/2" and bearings were made from pvc hose > barbs, that we found. I know they didn't quite fit and are hard as > hell to file down. I tried for 1/2 and hour with a rasp and barely > scratched them so I had to break out the power tools. lol > > Rowland > > PS I think Brent said he used his foot to guide the cable as he was > retieiving it. > | 15262|15248|2007-10-31 09:26:36|mickeyolaf|Re: interesting crack|Tom, u could fill the void. Remove enought lead to allow an uncontaminated weld. Then drill a 1/8 inch hole in the top and a 1/4 hole in the bottom of the crack. Fill the void with Hilti-Hit epoxy from the bottom until it comes out the smaller top hole. After it goes off ream out the two holes to clean metal and fill them with weld. Hilti-Hit is thick and shouldn't run out like other syringe injection epoxies. If it does run out a bit plug the bottom hole til it cures. I use Hilti-Hit rebaring stair risers and its a good product. Strong as sh-t when it cures and it will easily fill the void u're worried about. It would be good if u had some cement repairs u also needed to do as u won't be able to use the whole 2 tube kit fixing your boat and once u mix it u have to use them up. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Tom > Did you try welding with just 3/32 7018 ? > > Aaron > > "David A. Frantz" wrote: > I tend to agree that Lead contamination is now part of the problem. > The only problem I see with the digging out of the lead approach is that > you nw have an air space behind the patch plate. Eventually it would > fill with water but might find enough moisture for a bit of rust. > > The only other thing that I could suggest is a large patch plate to > cover all. Weld this in place without any of the seams coming into > contact with the fresh weld. The problem is you still have potential > for moisture to get behind the plate. It will also look obvious. > > Dave > > jim_both wrote: > > > > I had virtually the identical problem when trying to weld a plug in > > my keel after I had poured the lead. I'm pretty sure lead was > > contaminating the weld zone, and after several unsuccessful attempts > > I finally cleared the area of lead behind the plug and that worked > > out just fine. > > Cheers, Jim > > > > > Hello all > > > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had > > about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up > > and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd > > welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done > > simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and > > getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and > > I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked > > there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded > > in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, > > grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 > > times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first > > place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I > > poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and > > see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid > > lead behind the weld. > > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15263|15248|2007-10-31 10:48:49|Tom|Re: interesting crack|Thanks for the tips, I was going to dig out some lead only as a last resort. Just checked my repair job and its ok. Still need to do a pressure on the cap plate, we had about an 1-1/2" of rain monday night, lot of water ran through boat without windows in. I think I will weld a 1/2" pipe fitting in cap and if it looks wet put heaters on outside and dry it then pressure test and seal it, I started my lead project because the weather report was good, warm and no rain, lie'n suckers Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > Tom, u could fill the void. > Remove enought lead to allow an uncontaminated weld. Then drill a > 1/8 inch hole in the top and a 1/4 hole in the bottom of the crack. > Fill the void with Hilti-Hit epoxy from the bottom until it comes > out the smaller top hole. After it goes off ream out the two holes > to clean metal and fill them with weld. Hilti-Hit is thick and > shouldn't run out like other syringe injection epoxies. If it does > run out a bit plug the bottom hole til it cures. I use Hilti-Hit > rebaring stair risers and its a good product. Strong as sh-t when it > cures and it will easily fill the void u're worried about. > It would be good if u had some cement repairs u also needed to do > as u won't be able to use the whole 2 tube kit fixing your boat and > once u mix it u have to use them up. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams > wrote: >> >> Tom >> Did you try welding with just 3/32 7018 ? >> >> Aaron >> >> "David A. Frantz" wrote: >> I tend to agree that Lead contamination is now part of > the problem. >> The only problem I see with the digging out of the lead approach > is that >> you nw have an air space behind the patch plate. Eventually it > would >> fill with water but might find enough moisture for a bit of rust. >> >> The only other thing that I could suggest is a large patch plate > to >> cover all. Weld this in place without any of the seams coming into >> contact with the fresh weld. The problem is you still have > potential >> for moisture to get behind the plate. It will also look obvious. >> >> Dave >> >> jim_both wrote: >> > >> > I had virtually the identical problem when trying to weld a plug > in >> > my keel after I had poured the lead. I'm pretty sure lead was >> > contaminating the weld zone, and after several unsuccessful > attempts >> > I finally cleared the area of lead behind the plug and that > worked >> > out just fine. >> > Cheers, Jim >> > >> > > Hello all >> > > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had >> > about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned > it up >> > and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd >> > welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive > done >> > simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday > and >> > getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter > and >> > I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked >> > there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I > welded >> > in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, > welded it, >> > grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it > 3 >> > times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the > first >> > place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I >> > poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way > and >> > see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with > solid >> > lead behind the weld. >> > > Tom >> > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15264|15248|2007-11-01 04:44:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: interesting crack|Tom, I got a crack in the skeg where the prop shaft goes in. I veed it and welded it several times before it stopped cracking usually in slightly different places. I used smaller and smaller welds each time until it stopped cracking. I assume it was because of the fact that due to the bending of the steel it was already stressed and so could not deform enough to allow for the shrinkage of the weld. The keel(s) are also stressed to get their curved shape and maybe that caused the cracking. A series of molten lead pours or, even more so, using a tiger torch to melt lead inside the keel will also expand the steel and perhaps the solidifying lead will prevent the steel contacting back to its previous position. Regards, Ted| 15265|15248|2007-11-01 10:15:29|Tom|Re: interesting crack|Hey Ted What was the prop shaft tube material and rods used? From what you discribe sounds like the tube or pipe was a high carbon material. I think were I went wrong originaly was 1 to much moisture in the rods, had been on the truck a long time and 2 should have welded in side first then outside and finish ground before pouring lead in . V'd single pass from outside with damp rods evedintly not good enough to pour hot lead in! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > Tom, > > I got a crack in the skeg where the prop shaft goes in. I veed it and > welded it several times before it stopped cracking usually in slightly > different places. I used smaller and smaller welds each time until it > stopped cracking. I assume it was because of the fact that due to the > bending of the steel it was already stressed and so could not deform > enough to allow for the shrinkage of the weld. The keel(s) are also > stressed to get their curved shape and maybe that caused the cracking. > A series of molten lead pours or, even more so, using a tiger torch to > melt lead inside the keel will also expand the steel and perhaps the > solidifying lead will prevent the steel contacting back to its previous > position. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15266|15266|2007-11-01 11:00:16|seeratlas|More than one way to skin a cat..|Unusual technique for getting under a low bridge... :) wouldn't recommend it tho... http://www.cargolaw.com/2002nightmare_towboat.html seer| 15267|15267|2007-11-01 11:36:36|nuala-alexander436@ahyeaimk.com|full of pride right now|you can now officially call me Dr. :) Took me about 2 months, but after calling these guys 415-267-3940 they helped get me setup and get fully accredited! Great people.| 15268|15248|2007-11-01 11:53:59|edward_stoneuk|Re: interesting crack|Tom, The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained on. Regards, Ted| 15269|15267|2007-11-01 12:08:31|put_to_sea|Re: full of pride right now|> > you can now officially call me Dr. :) Took me about 2 months, > but after calling these guys 415-267-3940 they helped get me setup and get fully > accredited! Great people. > And to think it took me more than five years...| 15270|15248|2007-11-01 12:14:06|Wesley Cox|Re: interesting crack|This is why I personally quit using 6013 several years ago, except I do have some 5/64" 6013 that I use for 16 ga. and thinner steel that I can't practically reach with a TIG. I can weld about anything, but *consistently* welding with 6013 and not getting sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld alludes me. I know it needs a very short arc to work well, but it got to be such a PITA I quit using it altogether. Just my 2 cents. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack Tom, The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained on. Regards, Ted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15271|15266|2007-11-01 12:44:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: More than one way to skin a cat..|On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 03:00:14PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Unusual technique for getting under a low bridge... :) > wouldn't recommend it tho... > > http://www.cargolaw.com/2002nightmare_towboat.html Gotta give you a hell of a lot of confidence in your boat after you've been through it, though. :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15272|15267|2007-11-01 14:08:56|seeratlas|Re: full of pride right now|LOL, was this some kind of degree scam post? Five years sounds about right, lets see, I started school, well..lets just say I started some 22years before they handed me the little piece of parchment, and I still hear my mother say , "but he's not the kind that helps people.." LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > > > > you can now officially call me Dr. :) Took me about 2 months, > > but after calling these guys 415-267-3940 they helped get me setup > and get fully > > accredited! Great people. > > > > And to think it took me more than five years... > | 15273|15248|2007-11-01 17:56:55|edward_stoneuk|Re: interesting crack|Wesley, When you say sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld, do you mean pinhole craters or shallow depressions or something else. I got shallow depressions using one type of 6013 but when I changed the type that went away. From memory it was a slow cooling type and the slag sunk into the weld. I was using Thyssen rods and they sell 6 or more different types of 6013. I have all but finished the welding now. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > This is why I personally quit using 6013 several years ago, except I do have some 5/64" 6013 that I use for 16 ga. and thinner steel that I can't practically reach with a TIG. I can weld about anything, but *consistently* welding with 6013 and not getting sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld alludes me. I know it needs a very short arc to work well, but it got to be such a PITA I quit using it altogether. Just my 2 cents. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > > > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15274|15248|2007-11-01 18:08:38|Wesley Cox|Re: interesting crack|Not craters. Something like depressions. The slag sinks into the weld is a fairly accurate description. It makes the weld metal in the center of the weld thinner than nearer the edges of the weld or in places makes a crack, a space between the edges of the weld with no metal. I haven't tried other types of 6013, honestly. I'm not a fan of 6013 flux so I stick with 6010/11 and 7018 primarily. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack Wesley, When you say sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld, do you mean pinhole craters or shallow depressions or something else. I got shallow depressions using one type of 6013 but when I changed the type that went away. From memory it was a slow cooling type and the slag sunk into the weld. I was using Thyssen rods and they sell 6 or more different types of 6013. I have all but finished the welding now. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > This is why I personally quit using 6013 several years ago, except I do have some 5/64" 6013 that I use for 16 ga. and thinner steel that I can't practically reach with a TIG. I can weld about anything, but *consistently* welding with 6013 and not getting sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld alludes me. I know it needs a very short arc to work well, but it got to be such a PITA I quit using it altogether. Just my 2 cents. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > > > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15275|15226|2007-11-01 21:09:56|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Re Brents Winch.|Rowland, I'll bet that the PVC hose barbs you speak of were not PVC. More than likely they were polypropylene, a much better bearing material that would be much more difficult to file than PVC. PVC really is a poor choice for a bearing material. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:29 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re Brents Winch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Guys, > > I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the winch but > the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details in his > plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I have > seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has been of > help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the > scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on > stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? If > someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. Lastly > when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort it's > self out. > > Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there new > info in it? > > Thanks in advance :-) > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > Hi Paul Last year Brent and I built one for my boat. Well mostly he built it and I helped. lol This is what I remember as my boat is on the coast now, and I haven't seen it for almost a year. :( All the cross braces were made from sched. 40 SS pipe, 1-1.5" OD (outer diam.) The "cheeks" or side plates were from plate that I think was 1/8" thick (maybe 3/16?)and the gear was 3/8" plate. All stuff was bought at scrap yards or scrounged so we used "what we had", that's why it is hard to remember the exact scantlings. Pauls and stops were 1/2" and bearings were made from pvc hose barbs, that we found. I know they didn't quite fit and are hard as hell to file down. I tried for 1/2 and hour with a rasp and barely scratched them so I had to break out the power tools. lol Rowland PS I think Brent said he used his foot to guide the cable as he was retieiving it. | 15276|15248|2007-11-01 21:35:20|Tom|Re: interesting crack|Ted I havnt used 6013 much but it does make a pretty bead compared to 6011. 6013 is not the best when it comes to gap filling. Yep cutting skeg for prop shaft tube is tough to get a good fitup, what helps there is cut a v in end of prop shaft tube that somwhat matches back v angle of skeg, slip in over and mark around it. I need to make an insulated rod box that will work on the truck out in the weather, I usualy endup with 2 or 3 boxes of rods in the cab with me but they still get damp after awhile. Hows your boat comming along, any new pictures?. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15277|15277|2007-11-02 03:28:27|nuala-alexander436@ahyeaimk.com|too simple|I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me about a month to get fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they got me setup at an international uni and had me my BA in no time.| 15278|15277|2007-11-02 04:32:03|sae140|Re: too simple|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nuala-alexander436@..." wrote: > > I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me about a month to get > fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they got me setup at > an international uni and had me my BA in no time. > So you've been certified then ? Sounds about right. Colin| 15279|15248|2007-11-02 09:08:38|will jones|Re: interesting crack|Try some silica gel in a box. Silica gel absorbs 40% of its weight in moisture and is easily regenerated. Usually can get 3-5 lbs (1.3-2.2kilos) for $15USD at flower shops or craft/hobby shops here in the US. Easy to get online if that is your only outlet. I've even stapled together a housewrap bag (tyvek) and put it in boxes. I also save all of those little packets that seem to come in everything now. It is easy to acquire a pound or more. You can regenerate at 50-100C in a glass pyrex pan or even the wife's steel cake pan. I line mine with aluminum foil so the wife only bites off part of my head. At 1" deep (2.54cm) and 50C leave in for 6-7 hrs and a couple of hours at 100C. Don't worry, it is not toxic. Often you can get silica gel with bits of colored indicating silica gel mixed in. Mine has specs of blue that change to pinkish-purple when saturated and back when regenerated. You can use this as an indicator when to regenerated and when the silica gel is saturated. Do not go above 100C if you have indicating silica gel. Dierite (gypsum) is another dessicant. Do not mix with silica gel because it takes 210C to regenerate. Some silica gel facts: A 10 gm. sachet of silica gel is usually adequate to cover an approximate area of 2 cu. ft. (2 ft x 1 x 1 ft. container). A 50 gm. sachet of silica gel can cover 10 cu. ft. Silica Gel can absorb upto 40% of its own weight. Do not heat above 250C since Silica Gel loses all of its water content (waters of hydration) leading to a complete loss of all the properties of absorption. You can rehydrate, but it is a pain. Silica gel can also be conditioned to maintain a range of relative humidity. Tom wrote: Ted I havnt used 6013 much but it does make a pretty bead compared to 6011. 6013 is not the best when it comes to gap filling. Yep cutting skeg for prop shaft tube is tough to get a good fitup, what helps there is cut a v in end of prop shaft tube that somwhat matches back v angle of skeg, slip in over and mark around it. I need to make an insulated rod box that will work on the truck out in the weather, I usualy endup with 2 or 3 boxes of rods in the cab with me but they still get damp after awhile. Hows your boat comming along, any new pictures?. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15280|15277|2007-11-02 10:30:10|seeratlas|Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy.|Alex, can you toss this guy from the group? Intentional fraud purveyors, we could do without. Plus the doofus doesn't even know that a "BA" isn't a doctorate. Colin has it right, "certified" hits the mark. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nuala-alexander436@" > wrote: > > > > I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me > about a month to get > > fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they > got me setup at > > an international uni and had me my BA in no time. > > > > So you've been certified then ? Sounds about right. > > Colin > | 15281|15281|2007-11-02 11:34:19|seeratlas|Chinese Diesel Generators|Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) thanks in advance. seer| 15282|15281|2007-11-02 12:07:26|Michael Casling|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|Was talking about this just the other day. Fellow boater with a 25 foot Flicker is thinking about using one as his motive force. As they are air cooled I only suggested he may need to run a fan sometimes. I have a made is China two stroke 900 watt generator that runs quite well. Had to replace the Honda that some Ahole stole. Was able to buy a new sail and the generator for the same price. The diesel has a rope pull start as a back up to the starter motor. I wondered how easy this might be to pull. At the same time I got the bright idea to lengthen the crank handle for my Yanmar. I think the smaller boat motors should have a kick starter like the motorcycles so we can actually start the things manually. My two stroke motor appears to be built good enough. I figured it is pretty hard to screw up a small two stroke motor. There may be a shortage of parts for these things. Canada has a large trade surplus so I do not feel guilty about buying made in China stuff. I have a 1/2 drill, chain hoists, floor jack, cut off saw and other stuff. The chuck on the drill is not very good ( almost useless ), the cut off saw motor smokes under too much load. The other stuff works okay. For the part time user like me the stuff is okay, but for more serious work better quality is required. The small sander quit after one boat bottom but Canadian Tyre replaced it and I upgraded to a better ( made in North America ) unit. My 5" Makita is a joy to own. I am currently cutting 5" C section steel on the boat cradle. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Diesel Generators Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) thanks in advance. seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15283|15281|2007-11-02 12:32:12|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|Michael, I was thinking about using one of the aircooled units as a stop gap, shrouding the motor with ducted fresh air drawn in to feed it and a blower to cool it while still choking the sound down. Then all I have to sweat is the dry exhaust which I think I could plumb out a stainless standing pipe thru the hull into the water. As for rope pull, I think *some* of them have a compression release set up for that. To be sure, hand starting a 10 or 12hp single piston diesel would NOT be fun in a crowded engine room LOL. Now, did you mean to say 900w or 9000 watt? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Was talking about this just the other day. > Fellow boater with a 25 foot Flicker is thinking about using one as his motive force. > As they are air cooled I only suggested he may need to run a fan sometimes. > I have a made is China two stroke 900 watt generator that runs quite well. > Had to replace the Honda that some Ahole stole. Was able to buy a new sail and the generator for the same price. > The diesel has a rope pull start as a back up to the starter motor. I wondered how easy this might be to pull. > At the same time I got the bright idea to lengthen the crank handle for my Yanmar. I think the smaller boat motors should have a kick starter like the motorcycles so we can actually start the things manually. > My two stroke motor appears to be built good enough. I figured it is pretty hard to screw up a small two stroke motor. There may be a shortage of parts for these things. Canada has a large trade surplus so I do not feel guilty about buying made in China stuff. > I have a 1/2 drill, chain hoists, floor jack, cut off saw and other stuff. > The chuck on the drill is not very good ( almost useless ), the cut off saw motor smokes under too much load. The other stuff works okay. For the part time user like me the stuff is okay, but for more serious work better quality is required. > The small sander quit after one boat bottom but Canadian Tyre replaced it and I upgraded to a better ( made in North America ) unit. My 5" Makita is a joy to own. I am currently cutting 5" C section steel on the boat cradle. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Diesel Generators > > > Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or > knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) > thanks in advance. > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15284|15277|2007-11-02 12:37:48|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy.|Could not agree more! When the title is fake it is a given that what the title will be used for is also fake! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 10:21 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy. Alex, can you toss this guy from the group? Intentional fraud purveyors, we could do without. Plus the doofus doesn't even know that a "BA" isn't a doctorate. Colin has it right, "certified" hits the mark. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "nuala-alexander436@" > wrote: > > > > I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me > about a month to get > > fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they > got me setup at > > an international uni and had me my BA in no time. > > > > So you've been certified then ? Sounds about right. > > Colin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15285|15281|2007-11-02 12:56:17|Michael Casling|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|Mine is the small unit, 900 watts. Runs a sander or electric drill. The Honda would balk at the Makita grider if you pressed too hard. This unit will also charge a battery, but not quickly. So it makes a good back up for the boat as long as the load is minor, such as a 500 watt heater. Works well on the farm for drilling the holes for gate hinges. Michael, off to cut some more steel. Am modifying my flat deck trailer and cradle for my boat. Need to make it sit lower. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Michael, > > I was thinking about using one of the aircooled units as a stop gap, > shrouding the motor with ducted fresh air drawn in to feed it and a > blower to cool it while still choking the sound down. > Then all I have to sweat is the dry exhaust which I think I could > plumb out a stainless standing pipe thru the hull into the water. > As for rope pull, I think *some* of them have a compression release > set up for that. To be sure, hand starting a 10 or 12hp single piston > diesel would NOT be fun in a crowded engine room LOL. > Now, did you mean to say 900w or 9000 watt? > > seer | 15286|15286|2007-11-02 13:25:52|seeratlas|Cleaning Shore Power cords, fenders etc.|Has anyone every found a way of cleaning the black gunk that accumulates on shore power cords and taking em back to yellow? I've always thought there must be some kind of chemical around that would eat off the damaged vinyl outer layer and restore them to some more presentable look. Same thing for formerly off white fenders etc. :) seer| 15287|15286|2007-11-02 13:49:12|Aaron Williams|Re: Cleaning Shore Power cords, fenders etc.|Have you tried WD40 or orange-sol seeratlas wrote: Has anyone every found a way of cleaning the black gunk that accumulates on shore power cords and taking em back to yellow? I've always thought there must be some kind of chemical around that would eat off the damaged vinyl outer layer and restore them to some more presentable look. Same thing for formerly off white fenders etc. :) seer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15288|15288|2007-11-02 13:56:59|seeratlas|Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip heater without screwing it up? Thanks seer| 15289|15288|2007-11-02 14:20:54|Paul Wilson|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|The diesel drip heaters rely on clean fuel to burn cleanly. I think you would end up with a smokey mess and possibly plug the carburetor. I once refueled with the wrong grade of diesel and my heater would then only go about 5 days before I had to clean the deposits out of the stack. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:47:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater? That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip heater without screwing it up? Thanks seer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15290|15277|2007-11-02 14:27:15|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy.|I've blocked this character before, she or he has slipped through my defenses once again. Best to ignore postings which are non-origami related. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Knut F Garshol Date: Friday, November 2, 2007 9:42 am Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Could not agree more! > >   > > When the title is fake it is a given that what the title will be > used for is > also fake! > >   > > Knut > >   > >   _____  > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 10:21 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy. > >   > > Alex, can you toss this guy from the group? > Intentional fraud purveyors, we could do without. > Plus the doofus doesn't even know that a "BA" isn't a doctorate. > Colin has it right, "certified" hits the mark. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "nuala-alexander436@" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me > > about a month to get > > > fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they > > got me setup at > > > an international uni and had me my BA in no time. > > > > > > > So you've been certified then ? Sounds about right. > > > > Colin > > > >   > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15291|15286|2007-11-02 14:27:19|seeratlas|Re: Cleaning Shore Power cords, fenders etc.|Not yet, but have some of that stuff laying around so I'll try it when I get down there again early next week. Thanks. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Have you tried WD40 or orange-sol > > seeratlas wrote: Has anyone every found a way of cleaning the black gunk that > accumulates on shore power cords and taking em back to yellow? I've > always thought there must be some kind of chemical around that would > eat off the damaged vinyl outer layer and restore them to some more > presentable look. > > Same thing for formerly off white fenders etc. :) > > seer > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15292|15292|2007-11-02 14:34:17|seeratlas|Competition for AirHead|Appears to be a new player in the marine composting toilet arena. Looks like higher capacity but will have to get details. In any event, its cheaper. http://www.ecovita.net/boat.html seer| 15293|15277|2007-11-02 14:44:14|seeratlas|[SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy.|Capitalism at its worst :( seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > I've blocked this character before, she or he has slipped through my defenses once again. Best to ignore postings which are non-origami related. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Knut F Garshol > Date: Friday, November 2, 2007 9:42 am > Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Could not agree more! > > > > > > > > When the title is fake it is a given that what the title will be > > used for is > > also fake! > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 10:21 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: too simple Alex, toss this guy. > > > > > > > > Alex, can you toss this guy from the group? > > Intentional fraud purveyors, we could do without. > > Plus the doofus doesn't even know that a "BA" isn't a doctorate. > > Colin has it right, "certified" hits the mark. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com, "nuala-alexander436@" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me > > > about a month to get > > > > fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 415 267 3940 they > > > got me setup at > > > > an international uni and had me my BA in no time. > > > > > > > > > > So you've been certified then ? Sounds about right. > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15294|15288|2007-11-02 14:47:11|seeratlas|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|Thanks Paul I had heard they will burn bio i.e. french fry left overs and thought maybe they'd do oil too :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > The diesel drip heaters rely on clean fuel to burn cleanly. I think you would end up with a smokey mess and possibly plug the carburetor. I once refueled with the wrong grade of diesel and my heater would then only go about 5 days before I had to clean the deposits out of the stack. > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:47:10 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater? > > That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip > heater without screwing it up? > Thanks > seer > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15295|15288|2007-11-02 15:03:19|Harry James|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|If you mean like a carburetor heater by Dickenson or Sigmar? They are so closely calibrated that you have to change adjustment if you switch from #1 to #2 diesel and they require a filter on the oil line. I would think that used engine oil would totally trash one. HJ seeratlas wrote: > That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip > heater without screwing it up? > Thanks > seer > > > > | 15296|15281|2007-11-02 15:06:31|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|seer, I have a 6KW that I bought on ebay 3 yrs ago. It is aircooled, has electric start w/a backup rope pull starter and is equipped with a compression release. I use it for backup of my household power, and have not put many hours on it. ( bought right after a 5 day outage) It is a little bit noisy for residential use. I bought a yanmar exhaust flange that fits it so that I can build up a much quieter exhaust. Still haven't gotten to it. Over all it appears to be solidly built when compared to the gasoline powered gensets at costco and home depot. Dale seeratlas wrote: > Michael, > > I was thinking about using one of the aircooled units as a stop gap, > shrouding the motor with ducted fresh air drawn in to feed it and a > blower to cool it while still choking the sound down. > Then all I have to sweat is the dry exhaust which I think I could > plumb out a stainless standing pipe thru the hull into the water. > As for rope pull, I think *some* of them have a compression release > set up for that. To be sure, hand starting a 10 or 12hp single piston > diesel would NOT be fun in a crowded engine room LOL. > Now, did you mean to say 900w or 9000 watt? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: >> Was talking about this just the other day. >> Fellow boater with a 25 foot Flicker is thinking about using one as > his motive force. >> As they are air cooled I only suggested he may need to run a fan > sometimes. >> I have a made is China two stroke 900 watt generator that runs quite > well. >> Had to replace the Honda that some Ahole stole. Was able to buy a > new sail and the generator for the same price. >> The diesel has a rope pull start as a back up to the starter motor. > I wondered how easy this might be to pull. >> At the same time I got the bright idea to lengthen the crank handle > for my Yanmar. I think the smaller boat motors should have a kick > starter like the motorcycles so we can actually start the things manually. >> My two stroke motor appears to be built good enough. I figured it is > pretty hard to screw up a small two stroke motor. There may be a > shortage of parts for these things. Canada has a large trade surplus > so I do not feel guilty about buying made in China stuff. >> I have a 1/2 drill, chain hoists, floor jack, cut off saw and other > stuff. >> The chuck on the drill is not very good ( almost useless ), the cut > off saw motor smokes under too much load. The other stuff works okay. > For the part time user like me the stuff is okay, but for more serious > work better quality is required. >> The small sander quit after one boat bottom but Canadian Tyre > replaced it and I upgraded to a better ( made in North America ) unit. > My 5" Makita is a joy to own. I am currently cutting 5" C section > steel on the boat cradle. >> Michael >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: seeratlas >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:34 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Diesel Generators >> >> >> Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or >> knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) >> thanks in advance. >> >> seer >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > | 15297|15288|2007-11-02 15:08:29|J Fisher|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|Back in the 80's motor oil was reformulated to help prevent burn off. This made it hard to use drip style waste oil heaters. All new waste oil heaters use some sort of injection system to atomize the oil so it will burn well. Harder to do for a home builder. John -------Original Message------- From: seeratlas Date: 11/2/2007 10:57:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater? That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip heater without screwing it up? Thanks seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15298|15281|2007-11-02 15:44:55|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|Thanks Dale. Did any of the provided documents say anything about parts availability? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dale J. Robertson" wrote: > > seer, > I have a 6KW that I bought on ebay 3 yrs ago. It is aircooled, has > electric start w/a backup rope pull starter and is equipped with a > compression release. I use it for backup of my household power, and have > not put many hours on it. ( bought right after a 5 day outage) It is a > little bit noisy for residential use. I bought a yanmar exhaust flange > that fits it so that I can build up a much quieter exhaust. Still > haven't gotten to it. Over all it appears to be solidly built when > compared to the gasoline powered gensets at costco and home depot. > Dale > > seeratlas wrote: > > Michael, > > > > I was thinking about using one of the aircooled units as a stop gap, > > shrouding the motor with ducted fresh air drawn in to feed it and a > > blower to cool it while still choking the sound down. > > Then all I have to sweat is the dry exhaust which I think I could > > plumb out a stainless standing pipe thru the hull into the water. > > As for rope pull, I think *some* of them have a compression release > > set up for that. To be sure, hand starting a 10 or 12hp single piston > > diesel would NOT be fun in a crowded engine room LOL. > > Now, did you mean to say 900w or 9000 watt? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > >> Was talking about this just the other day. > >> Fellow boater with a 25 foot Flicker is thinking about using one as > > his motive force. > >> As they are air cooled I only suggested he may need to run a fan > > sometimes. > >> I have a made is China two stroke 900 watt generator that runs quite > > well. > >> Had to replace the Honda that some Ahole stole. Was able to buy a > > new sail and the generator for the same price. > >> The diesel has a rope pull start as a back up to the starter motor. > > I wondered how easy this might be to pull. > >> At the same time I got the bright idea to lengthen the crank handle > > for my Yanmar. I think the smaller boat motors should have a kick > > starter like the motorcycles so we can actually start the things manually. > >> My two stroke motor appears to be built good enough. I figured it is > > pretty hard to screw up a small two stroke motor. There may be a > > shortage of parts for these things. Canada has a large trade surplus > > so I do not feel guilty about buying made in China stuff. > >> I have a 1/2 drill, chain hoists, floor jack, cut off saw and other > > stuff. > >> The chuck on the drill is not very good ( almost useless ), the cut > > off saw motor smokes under too much load. The other stuff works okay. > > For the part time user like me the stuff is okay, but for more serious > > work better quality is required. > >> The small sander quit after one boat bottom but Canadian Tyre > > replaced it and I upgraded to a better ( made in North America ) unit. > > My 5" Makita is a joy to own. I am currently cutting 5" C section > > steel on the boat cradle. > >> Michael > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: seeratlas > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:34 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Diesel Generators > >> > >> > >> Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or > >> knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) > >> thanks in advance. > >> > >> seer > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > | 15299|15288|2007-11-02 15:46:26|seeratlas|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|-Ahhhh, see I'm still stuck in ancient technology :) Yeah the old ones I saw were just 'drippers' no carburetion to it. Probably inefficient as hell tho :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Back in the 80's motor oil was reformulated to help prevent burn off. This > made it hard to use drip style waste oil heaters. All new waste oil heaters > use some sort of injection system to atomize the oil so it will burn well. > Harder to do for a home builder. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: seeratlas > Date: 11/2/2007 10:57:01 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater? > > That's the question. Is it possible to burn used oil in a diesel drip > heater without screwing it up? > Thanks > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15300|15300|2007-11-02 18:16:56|jim_both|Airhead spinoff|The Airhead copycat is called 'Nature's Head'. Google search list several retailers, including: http://www.ecovita.net/boat.html Retails for $US 850 Jim| 15301|15226|2007-11-02 18:23:25|brentswain38|Re: Re Brents Winch.|There is no new info on the winch in my book. I have added things like watermaker, welder, woodstove, etc. It gives all the info you need. Mine is stainless on stainless for bearings and has been good for the last 23 years.No noticable wear yet. Plastic is just a minor refinement.Rowland's specs are all the info you need. The hose barbs are soft plastic, probably polyprop. It sorts itself out when leting the wire out as long as you slow the reel down slightly with your foot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Rowland, > I'll bet that the PVC hose barbs you speak of were not PVC. More than > likely they were polypropylene, a much better bearing material that would be > much more difficult to file than PVC. PVC really is a poor choice for a > bearing material. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kingsknight4life" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:29 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re Brents Winch. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > I have a 2002 edition of Brent's book. In it he tell about the > winch but > > the details are minimal, perhaps because there are better details > in his > > plans. Any way, can someone please describe it in more detail. I > have > > seen the photo's and Paul's recent post on his installation has > been of > > help. What I particularly would like to know more about are the > > scantlings and the two end bearings. Are they plain stainless on > > stainless? Bronze bushes? Tight fit or sloppy fit lots of grease? > If > > someone could fill in these details I would be most appreciative. > Lastly > > when reeling in the wire, do you need to guide it? Or does it sort > it's > > self out. > > > > Lastly, should I get the latest edition of Brent's book, is there > new > > info in it? > > > > Thanks in advance :-) > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > Deaf Sailor > > > > Hi Paul > > Last year Brent and I built one for my boat. Well mostly he built it > and I helped. lol This is what I remember as my boat is on the coast > now, and I haven't seen it for almost a year. :( > > All the cross braces were made from sched. 40 SS pipe, 1-1.5" OD > (outer diam.) The "cheeks" or side plates were from plate that I > think was 1/8" thick (maybe 3/16?)and the gear was 3/8" plate. All > stuff was bought at scrap yards or scrounged so we used "what we > had", that's why it is hard to remember the exact scantlings. > > Pauls and stops were 1/2" and bearings were made from pvc hose > barbs, that we found. I know they didn't quite fit and are hard as > hell to file down. I tried for 1/2 and hour with a rasp and barely > scratched them so I had to break out the power tools. lol > > Rowland > > PS I think Brent said he used his foot to guide the cable as he was > retieiving it. > | 15302|15248|2007-11-02 18:26:58|brentswain38|Re: interesting crack|Fittng a couple of one size bigger pieces of pipe on either side of the sterntube and welding them on , then welding the end of them to the sterntube ,about 1 inch in from the end of the sterntube, makes it easier and reduces distortion to the sterntube. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Ted > I havnt used 6013 much but it does make a pretty bead compared to 6011. > 6013 is not the best when it comes to gap filling. Yep cutting skeg for prop > shaft tube is tough to get a good fitup, what helps there is cut a v in end > of prop shaft tube that somwhat matches back v angle of skeg, slip in over > and mark around it. > I need to make an insulated rod box that will work on the truck out in the > weather, I usualy endup with 2 or 3 boxes of rods in the cab with me but > they still get damp after awhile. > Hows your boat comming along, any new pictures?. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > > > > Tom, > > > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > > on. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15303|15292|2007-11-02 18:33:02|brentswain38|Re: Competition for AirHead|The square bucket is ingenious. Definitly more capacity, without being any higher. They will rapidly drop in price as volume and competion force the price down. Expect them for under $100 in the next few years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Appears to be a new player in the marine composting toilet arena. > Looks like higher capacity but will have to get details. In any event, > its cheaper. > > http://www.ecovita.net/boat.html > > seer > | 15304|15248|2007-11-02 18:39:55|brentswain38|Re: interesting crack|The shrinkage of a full weld in a circle is tremendous. Read the part of my book on welding chock liners without cracking. Then put an inch of 6011 down, let it cool completely, before putting another inch down, let it cool completely, etc etc until you have the whole thing welded.Use the same method for any welding in a full circle where the shrinkage has no where to go. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello all > interesting delima, before I poured the lead in the keel I had about a 3" hole cut in the side of keel for drainage, I cleaned it up and v'd it to get a good weld, tacked the plate in and stagerd welding it in letting it cool between welds all was well as Ive done simular welds 100's of times. Well after pouring in lead Friday and getting a cap welded on saturday it rained about an hour latter and I didnt get to pressure test. any way came home today and looked there is a crack about a 1/4 of the way around the 3" plate I welded in so I grabed the grinder V'd the crack, wire brushed it, welded it, grind it smooth and the crack is back in the same spot . Done it 3 times now and its back again. Cant figure why it cracked in the first place, didnt cool it with water, it was about 80 degree when I poured. Well I am going to dig out the mig and try it that way and see what happens, if that dont work not sure what to do with solid lead behind the weld. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15305|733|2007-11-02 18:48:11|Wesley Cox|Brent's book|Brent, did you perfect the small engine driven alternator welder? Is that the welder update in your book? I may have to buy another book from you, if so. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15306|15164|2007-11-02 18:48:26|brentswain38|Re: Anchoring.|I use a 55 lb delta on my 31 footer. With the manual winch I can't tell the difference between having a 55 and having a 35 on the end of the rode, but I sleep well with the 55.The difference in building costs is pennies. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > My Dad did that years ago, he made himself a 35lb. danforth copy, and it was real popular with his boating buddies, so he ended up making several more. We didn't have any winch to lift the anchor, and only three strand road, but they worked for houseboats up to 50ft. > > seeratlas wrote: http://powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/ > > And, sometimes weight isn't everything. Check out the 16lb hydro at > the end of the test...Makes you wonder what the 40 lb'r would do. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > the setup:.... > > > > All my sailing life I've fallen into the mindset of lunch hook, main > > anchor, secondary..etc. and finally the big storm anchor you almost > > never use. Not to mention the kedging anchor, stern anchor and > > 'backup' anchors etc. :) > > > > It has recently occurred to me looking at it from a steel boat > > perspective, that maybe I've been wrong. > > > > The 'pondering'... > > > > Since your ground tackle setup including windlass etc. has to be > > strong enough to handle the biggest anchor you have on the boat > > anyway.....(otherwise its useless right?)... > > > > The Query.... > > > > Why not use the big anchor all the time and be done with it? > > > > Kicking a BIG one off the roller is no big imposition over kicking > > the smaller one off...and I doubt that 40 to 50 lb difference at the > > bow is going to make any meaningful change in the sailing of the boat, > > especially given that you've removed the other one or two anchors > > stored up there to somewhere back deeper in the boat... > > > > You also are putting the weight into the anchor(where it does the most > > good) instead of the chain/rode/cable etc. > > > > You save money and space by having fewer anchors on board.. > > > > And you scare hell out of off course numbnuts inattentive harbor > > weenies when they finally notice that big plow or similar "ram" > > pointing at em as they hurry to get out of your way :) > > > > LOL. Look at it this way..all those restless nights wondering if > > you're going to drag, if you've chosen good ground, whether some other > > less fortunate is going to get loose and come your way threatening to > > take you up on the beach with him etc..All of these sleep killing > > stress factors could be eliminated by simply knowing you already have > > your best *game* on the bottom where it should be :) > > > > Your main anchor and a backup for when you might have to cut loose in > > an emergency and come back and retrieve it later, should handle the > > whole bit, excepting a combo danforth type for kedging and using as a > > stern anchor or in conjunction with your 'storm' up forward doing the > > Y thing. Easy enough to carry some smaller ones for med style stern > > anchoring etc. where you might want some more lines aft, but for > > general purposes...I'm beginning to think that instead of digging > > around for the "big guy" when you see trouble coming,, having him > > already out and on the bottom in the first place is a lot less > > stressful and in my old age, i'm really getting into stress avoidance > > :) but maybe that's just me. > > > > I like the idea of calmly sitting in your cockpit, or PH, glass in > > hand enjoying the show as the curtain goes up on the midnight maritime > > version of the chinese fire drill as everyone else clambers up on > > deck into the weather to put out a bigger anchor, while trying to > > retrieve their dragging 'main' hooks while avoiding entangling > > everyone else dancing the same dance. > > > > Given, if you have a strictly manual windlass, pulling the big one up > > and down all the time might get old, but with powered gear...hmmm, for > > the brewer, (where I'm going hydraulic so even a one armed woman can > > handle the thing), I think I'll just mount the bruiser up front and > > end of story. > > > > am I missing something here? > > > > as always, thanks in advance for your thoughts. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15307|15292|2007-11-02 18:50:50|kingsknight4life|Re: Competition for AirHead|It looks like he's emptying an Airhead in those pics. (The container is round.) I guess someone is reverse engineering the Airhead now but still charging way too much, especially since most of the research costs should be born by the original inventor? Rowland| 15308|15171|2007-11-02 18:52:50|brentswain38|Re: steel boat building|Cork would wear down much quicker than sand if a boat was used full time.OK for weekenders. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > Do you know where they got the granulated cork? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to > touch > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood > on > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > expansion > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > invite > > corrosion. > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated > cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > | 15309|15164|2007-11-02 18:56:17|brentswain38|Re: Anchoring.|If your anchor fouls, you will drag in any serious, wind regardless of how much chain you have ( given the limited capacity on most yachts.) So much for the toothpick theory.As credible as the tooth fairy. Too much chain and you only find out if your anchor has dug in when the wind comes up in the middle of the night. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > I've always felt that more and heavier chain was the answer......in my > experience you can put a toothpick at the end of lotsa heavy chain and > you won't move an inch > Bill > Port Hope Canada > > > > > > armed paper hanger. Anyway, I think I'll now go with a big anchor. > > Mark H. > > > | 15310|15286|2007-11-02 18:58:57|audeojude|Re: Cleaning Shore Power cords, fenders etc.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Has anyone every found a way of cleaning the black gunk that > accumulates on shore power cords and taking em back to yellow? I've > always thought there must be some kind of chemical around that would > eat off the damaged vinyl outer layer and restore them to some more > presentable look. > > Same thing for formerly off white fenders etc. :) > > > seer > Get some gojo orange hand cleaner. It is one of the citrus with pumice hand cleaners. a gallon pump container from auto zone, advance auto parts or sams will cost you around 6 to 8 bucks. just take it and rub the line with it it will strip that stuff off quick. It is also one of the greatest hand cleaners ever made. I always keep a gallon pump container of it under the sink in the kitchen. It will also strip off mineral stains from sinks and tubs etc as if they were soap scum. Just don't rub to hard as the pumice in it will scratch stuff. You only need a real light rub. For your lines just fill your hand with it and run it up and down a section of the line a few times. then rinse and see if that got it all.| 15311|15191|2007-11-02 19:05:01|brentswain38|Re: Line Cutters on the shaft|Did that . Works well. I welded a 1 inch by 2 inch piece of 1/4 inch stainless to the sharp backside oof the aperture , then bolted a sharp piece of stainless to it , at a 45 degre angle touching the prop hub. Any line that tries to wrap around the prop tightens around this blade. In the northern Cook Isands, I was becalmed ,and without thinking , started the engine. It immediately picked up my man overboard line that I trail, and cut it into tiny pieces without slowing down. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Some of you will recall my story of having to go over the side, way > the hell off the coast of Oregon/Washington, in weather, to cut a > piece of heavy net off the prop. Couple of points I want to make. I > really don't know anyone with any substantial degree of sailing > experience that HASN'T wrapped something around a prop at one time or > another. Further, going under the boat is very dangerous in any kind > of swell due to the movement of the boat and the tendency of netting > to pull the "chinese finger trap" trick and scissor down on your hand/ > fingers, whatever as the boat surges forward down a swell. If you are > free diving, you can die. I had a full scuba tank so plenty of air, > but I still darn near got my arm jerked out of the socket when the net > clamped down on me and then surged forward with the hull at something > like 3 or 4 knots. And even after I survived that, I still almost > didn't make it as I forgot about the swim step when coming up and as > the bow rose, the stern slapped down into the water and whacked me on > the head almost knocking me out, it DID, however, knock me silly for > about 20 seconds..which means that unless I was tied to the boat..(I > wasn't and that was stupid) if there hadn't been someone waiting for > me to come up I might have missed my trailed line ( I always trail out > about 150 feet of knoted line behind the boat when on the ocean so if > anyone goes over they have a shot at grabbing it. > > Moral of the story, I don't want to have to do that again sooooo, > I was looking at the prop on my Brewer and thinking that now would be > a good time to install some kind of line cutter on there. > > There are basically three different designs that I found and they are > all ridiculously expensive. I don't see any reason for not making up > a set of horizontal bars with angled tipped *shaving * blade edges on > each side of the skeg pointing horizontally to the rear and protruding > out so that as the prop feeds the line, net, whatever, onto the shaft > aft of the skeg, these horizontal swords simply *shave* em off. > > I might be missing something but this seems like a REALLY cost > effective *good* idea to me and I wanted to mention it in case some of > you builders hadn't considered the possibilities. These would have to > be stainless, and the cutting edges hardened, but welding a pair on > during construction would be trivial compared to what I went through > under the boat. > > seer > | 15312|15164|2007-11-02 19:09:54|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|I know a guy who has his pump mounted on a bracket with a V belt on it. He just reaches thru the hatch and flicks a lever ,which tightens the belt by moving the pump over. He's been using it that way for decades. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch > operated? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 15313|15171|2007-11-02 19:16:43|brentswain38|Re: steel boat building|Expensive , complex solution. You don't know whats happinin behind the treadmaster until it becomes a bigger problem. I can slap a coat of paint on , sprinkle a bit of sand , then give it another coat every couple of years for far less work than it takes to pay for such expensive habits. Of all curent predominant religions , consumerism is the major slave driver . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > > corrosion. > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > > > | 15314|15171|2007-11-02 19:18:13|brentswain38|Re: steel boat building|Want springy? Sit on a cushion and wear soft shoes. Much cheaper. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great circle trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a bit of springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when sailing at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great difference > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan of > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years of use. > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything mixed > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to touch > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as bare > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). Wood on > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of expansion > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to absorb > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and invite > > corrosion. > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using granulated cork > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15315|15164|2007-11-02 19:25:52|brentswain38|Re: Anchoring.|Northill's foul badly whenever the tide changes . I'd never leave a boat on one overnight or untended. There ar far more non fouling anchors available. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > I have found that the often overlooked northill is a good choice if > you need anchor that will hold in anything. This requires a bowsprit > or a overlay of sacrificial wood on the bow like the shrimpers have. > designed by the navy for flying boats and designed to work in all > siuations. > this is the standard for workboats in the east coast > mike > | 15316|15130|2007-11-02 19:36:32|brentswain38|Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|Got a Brownies Third lung, powered by a 3.5HP brigs, with two 70 ft hoses. Oiles compressor. Tried it to 70 ft, good for pleasure , but wouldn't want to do heavy work at that depth. Taking it easy I could make it to 100 feet. Love it. Got rid of the float. Much easier to put it in my dinghy. Brnt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? > Anyone else familiar with these things? > seer > | 15317|15132|2007-11-02 19:40:22|brentswain38|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Bought one of those Chinese 950 watt generators for $169. Thought it was a disposable at that price. Now with the rise in the CDN$ they are $139. Got my moneys worth out of it long ago. Getting hard to start, so may buy another one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > How insane? I have a Generac with Briggs and Stratton, made it Wisconsin, supposed to be solid good stuff by reputation, 5500 W continuous that I paid $550 for about 5 years ago. I don't run it much but it sat for 2 years with most of the gas emptied but not treated (bad I know, but very busy was I and I moved) and it started on the first pull. > > I did do some welding with it, though, after moving, before I set myself up with 240 volt line power and it sucked down the fuel. I was not impressed with that. I haven't gotten around to making a direct drive portable welder a la Brent Swain but I have a pile of motors waiting to choose from for that project. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big amp > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > insane LOL. > > seer > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release Date: 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15318|15132|2007-11-02 20:16:53|jim_both|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- New in factory crate Ebay item 200168174448 Cheers, Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the big > amp > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's are > > insane LOL. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release Date: > 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15319|15281|2007-11-02 21:33:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Chinese Diesel Generators|On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:34:18PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Has anyone used, seen, worked with, or have any experience or > knowledge regarding the plethora of these things appearing on ebay? :) > thanks in advance. A friend of mine who just took off for the Keys had bought one about a year ago, had endless problems with it, then had endless problems trying to send it back. I think he sold it to some sucker. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15320|15132|2007-11-02 22:39:07|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|LOL, maybe when I was there in 73 I could've pedaled that thing...but I'm far past the richard simmons generation LOL (pun intended). I think maybe if you had Lance Armstrong as crew though.....:) rflmao seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- > > New in factory crate > > Ebay item 200168174448 > > Cheers, Jim > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > > > > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the > big > > amp > > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's > are > > > insane LOL. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release > Date: > > 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15321|15321|2007-11-02 23:49:18|seeratlas|Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has run a dry exhaust... I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust from the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the boat. I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for details on the dry exhaust setup. If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust thru a flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that is welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to put an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to prevent water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be *bad* :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would be a good idea too. Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :)hehehe. Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could be inserted into pipes for now. Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so any advice is appreciated. seer| 15322|15322|2007-11-02 23:58:45|seeratlas|handholds on Aluminum PH|I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? thanks seer| 15323|15323|2007-11-03 00:07:20|seeratlas|Re: KiwiGrip samples arrived|I received the 3 colored samples of KiwiGrip today and I have to admit, I'm impressed. The stuff is very tough, but extremely flexible, hard to crack as it actually bends around very nicely. The colors are a surprise too. The grey looks normal, the cream normal, then the aquamarine 'ish blue/great is actually *vibrant*, an entirely unexpected effect from just normal coloring. Willy says either the user or he can mix up most any lighter color within reason but suggests avoiding the darker colors since they require too much pigment which can in large amounts degrade the quality of the coating. In any event, this stuff is a lot better than any coating I've looked at so far, and tho more expensive than the simple expedient of sand in paint, looks a lot better. seer| 15324|15322|2007-11-03 01:04:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent MIG work on aluminum. TIG is good but slow. > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want to avoid welding unfamiliar material. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15325|15322|2007-11-03 01:13:51|Aaron Williams|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|How is the aluminum pilothouse attached to the steel hull? Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent MIG work on aluminum. TIG is good but slow. > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want to avoid welding unfamiliar material. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15326|15171|2007-11-03 06:10:24|sae140|Re: steel boat building|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Cork would wear down much quicker than sand if a boat was used full > time.OK for weekenders. > Brent Sand in paint is a good but very crude method of creating a non-slip surface, and will easily take skin off if anyone should fall against it. I've used both sand and sugar, and although sugar is much kinder to the skin, the surface will tend to collect dirt and needs washing-down regularly. Neither method is insulating. I think Trevor Robertson and Annie Hill (and numerous other full-time Wylo cruisers) would be amused to hear them being described as 'weekenders' . The covering doesn't finish-up as cork - that's the whole point. The resulting material is a composite epoxy-cork mix which has extremely good wear qualities, and unlike wood has an identical coefficient of linear expansion as the paint used underneath it on the deck. This is not a pie-in-the sky theoretical idea - it's on dozens of boats, and working well. No-one who has used this method has reverted to using sand in paint (afaik). Colin| 15327|15288|2007-11-03 06:29:33|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|If you're getting the used oil for nowt then efficiency wouldn't be too much of a consideration.Main thing would be keeping the drips above the flash point.Slightly off at a tangent I remember an article in 'Light Steam Power' - a British journal published in the Isle of Man about 30 years ago about a guy who was developing a small scale unit which converted a mixture of 40percent coaldust,40 percent waste oil and 20percent water into a colloidal mixture which would burn with a clear flame.I think you could put a bit of limestone in as well to mop up the sulphur.LSP were interested because it would be a cheap sort of heat for boilers.Wonder what happened to it. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15328|15288|2007-11-03 08:00:34|Aaron Williams|Re: Used Engine Oil in Diesel Heater?|Maybe this is where the coal idea idea is at today http://www.silveradogreenfuel.com/ ANDREW AIREY wrote: If you're getting the used oil for nowt then efficiency wouldn't be too much of a consideration.Main thing would be keeping the drips above the flash point.Slightly off at a tangent I remember an article in 'Light Steam Power' - a British journal published in the Isle of Man about 30 years ago about a guy who was developing a small scale unit which converted a mixture of 40percent coaldust,40 percent waste oil and 20percent water into a colloidal mixture which would burn with a clear flame.I think you could put a bit of limestone in as well to mop up the sulphur.LSP were interested because it would be a cheap sort of heat for boilers.Wonder what happened to it. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15329|15171|2007-11-03 08:23:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: steel boat building|On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 10:10:23AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Cork would wear down much quicker than sand if a boat was used full > > time.OK for weekenders. > > Brent > > > Sand in paint is a good but very crude method of creating a non-slip > surface, and will easily take skin off if anyone should fall against > it. Not if you put a coat of paint over it. Two, if you've got sensitive skin. :) I've "sanded" my decks in several different ways over time, and they all work pretty well. Although the one where you just pile the stuff on and sweep off anything that doesn't stick, then paint it over (suggested by a friend of mine, Tock, who was using it on his swim platform) produces something like a layer of concrete - nearly indestructible but damn heavy. Well, Tock runs a charter boat - people drop scuba gear, etc. on his swim platform all the time - so he's got special needs... The best way I've found is to use beach sand in a flour sifter (the kind with a trigger - you can get the plastic ones at the dollar store.) You can get really precise about how dense you want your sand layer to be. Worst type of deck for taking the hide off, by the way, was the one that Ulysses came with. The owner had a couple of large rusty cans full of 1/4"-1/2" *rock chips* which he used instead of sand. Getting rid of that stuff took some effort. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15330|15322|2007-11-03 10:55:20|mauro gonzaga|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Aluminum cannot be welded to steel. You have to bolt or rivet on it. You may bolt an aluminum sheet to the steel and then weld aluminum on aluminum sheet. Aaron Williams wrote: How is the aluminum pilothouse attached to the steel hull? Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent MIG work on aluminum. TIG is good but slow. > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want to avoid welding unfamiliar material. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15331|15322|2007-11-03 13:09:29|seeratlas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|hehehe, Ben, for the reasons cited, "I"M not going to do any welding up there LOL, I have a "pro from dover" who'll do it for me if I can figure out what makes sense to do. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. > > If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice > before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding > steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and > MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but > that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent > MIG work on aluminum. > > TIG is good but slow. > > > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? > > Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... > maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to > length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main > tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want > to avoid welding unfamiliar material. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15332|15322|2007-11-03 13:37:04|Aaron Williams|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|I was asking how it was attached not how it was welded. Does it have a 2" lip seal and what was used to isolate the the PH and SS bolts from electrolisis ( galvonic corosion). 3 diferent typs of metal all coming together at the same place. How was the PH roof insulated and what thickness is the au? If it is only .190,( 3/16") you might want to use a double plate under the hand rail attachment point weather welding or bolting. Aaron mauro gonzaga wrote: Aluminum cannot be welded to steel. You have to bolt or rivet on it. You may bolt an aluminum sheet to the steel and then weld aluminum on aluminum sheet. Aaron Williams wrote: How is the aluminum pilothouse attached to the steel hull? Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent MIG work on aluminum. TIG is good but slow. > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want to avoid welding unfamiliar material. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15333|15333|2007-11-03 13:40:55|knutfgarshol|Any BS 36 feet bilge keel boats for sale?|I would be happy to receive any available information or offers on Brent Swain 36' bilge keel boats for sale. If I find the right boat, quick closing is possible. Knut| 15334|15171|2007-11-03 15:16:51|Paul Wilson|Re: steel boat building|The last time I did my decks I used epsom salts. You put a heavy layer of epoxy down, spinkle on the salts, let it set and then hose off. The salts have a larger grain than sugar and disolve to leave a rough pattern in the paint. I like using it better than sand since with sand when the paint wears down the sand is exposed and looks patchy and dirty. The epsom salts is OK as non-slip (not great but not bad) and lasts a few years depending on the hardness of the paint you use. Don't use polyurethane or it will end up too slippery. I am going to go with the Kiwigrip paint next time, however, since it lasts longer and you can make it as rough as you like. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2007 11:10:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Cork would wear down much quicker than sand if a boat was used full > time.OK for weekenders. > Brent Sand in paint is a good but very crude method of creating a non-slip surface, and will easily take skin off if anyone should fall against it. I've used both sand and sugar, and although sugar is much kinder to the skin, the surface will tend to collect dirt and needs washing-down regularly. Neither method is insulating. I think Trevor Robertson and Annie Hill (and numerous other full-time Wylo cruisers) would be amused to hear them being described as 'weekenders' . The covering doesn't finish-up as cork - that's the whole point. The resulting material is a composite epoxy-cork mix which has extremely good wear qualities, and unlike wood has an identical coefficient of linear expansion as the paint used underneath it on the deck. This is not a pie-in-the sky theoretical idea - it's on dozens of boats, and working well. No-one who has used this method has reverted to using sand in paint (afaik). Colin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15335|15322|2007-11-03 17:26:58|seeratlas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Kanter is not being very forthcoming on any details of contstruction, but inspection indicates that the alu house is sitting over a substantial lip all the way around. It is thrubolted basically on about 4" centers with doubling up at the corners. Some sort of membrane was used for isolation but I have no idea what it is. I "can" tell you it worked as there is no evidence whatsoever of any problem at the seams. The house itself is very heavily constructed. I have a bunch of the headliner down for painting and insulation and I'll put up a photo in the files section so you can see who they did it. Lots of beams. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I was asking how it was attached not how it was welded. Does it have a 2" lip seal and what was used to isolate the the PH and SS bolts from electrolisis ( galvonic corosion). > 3 diferent typs of metal all coming together at the same place. > > How was the PH roof insulated and what thickness is the au? If it is only .190,( 3/16") > you might want to use a double plate under the hand rail attachment point weather welding or bolting. > Aaron > mauro gonzaga wrote: > Aluminum cannot be welded to steel. You have to bolt or rivet on it. You may bolt an aluminum sheet to the steel and then weld aluminum on aluminum sheet. > > Aaron Williams wrote: How is the aluminum pilothouse attached to the steel hull? > > Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. > > If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice > before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding > steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and > MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but > that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent > MIG work on aluminum. > > TIG is good but slow. > > > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? > > Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... > maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to > length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main > tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want > to avoid welding unfamiliar material. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15336|15322|2007-11-03 17:38:44|seeratlas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Ok, photo of underside of Aluminum PH house is loaded in my "Seer's 44 Schooner" folder in the Files section. No sign of corrosion, galvanic or otherwise after 26 years, so whatever they did, *worked* :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Kanter is not being very forthcoming on any details of contstruction, > but inspection indicates that the alu house is sitting over a > substantial lip all the way around. It is thrubolted basically on > about 4" centers with doubling up at the corners. Some sort of > membrane was used for isolation but I have no idea what it is. I "can" > tell you it worked as there is no evidence whatsoever of any problem > at the seams. The house itself is very heavily constructed. I have a > bunch of the headliner down for painting and insulation and I'll put > up a photo in the files section so you can see who they did it. Lots > of beams. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > I was asking how it was attached not how it was welded. Does it > have a 2" lip seal and what was used to isolate the the PH and SS > bolts from electrolisis ( galvonic corosion). > > 3 diferent typs of metal all coming together at the same place. > > > > How was the PH roof insulated and what thickness is the au? If it > is only .190,( 3/16") > > you might want to use a double plate under the hand rail > attachment point weather welding or bolting. > > Aaron > > mauro gonzaga wrote: > > Aluminum cannot be welded to steel. You have to bolt or > rivet on it. You may bolt an aluminum sheet to the steel and then weld > aluminum on aluminum sheet. > > > > Aaron Williams wrote: How is the aluminum pilothouse > attached to the steel hull? > > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM > -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to > > > start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files > > > section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. > > > > If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice > > before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding > > steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and > > MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but > > that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent > > MIG work on aluminum. > > > > TIG is good but slow. > > > > > Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no > > > standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold > > > onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a > > > leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines > > > (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little > > > 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) > > > > > > Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the > > > corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? > > > > Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... > > maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to > > length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main > > tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want > > to avoid welding unfamiliar material. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15337|15337|2007-11-03 21:41:47|seeratlas|Diesel mechanics? Kubota vs Mitsubishi?|That's the issue, 12hp vs a 13hp its for a genset decision. Thanks for any opinions/experiences. seer| 15338|15322|2007-11-03 21:43:27|Gary H. Lucas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Ben, MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for adding rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than for TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] handholds on Aluminum PH > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 03:58:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: >> I've never tried to weld aluminum, and this is probably a bad time to >> start heheheh. But, if you look at the photos of my boat in the Files >> section, you'll notice that there are no handholds, AT ALL on the PH. > > If you've never done it before, I'd suggest getting a bunch of practice > before you do it "for real". It's definitely different from welding > steel - at least that's how I felt when I was learning to do it. Oh, and > MIG on aluminum *sucks*. I'm sure the pros here will disagree... but > that's kinda my point: you've got to _be_ a pro to do solid, consistent > MIG work on aluminum. > > TIG is good but slow. > >> Normally that probably wouldn't be such a big deal, but there is no >> standing rigging on the Gallant rig so I don't even have stays to hold >> onto when trying to go forward, or even to lean against when taking a >> leak LOL. Couple that with my decision to stay with wire lifelines >> (going to use hefty diameter with some insulators for my little >> 'midnight boarder SURPRISE!!!!" system :) >> >> Soooo, should I just have some railing fab'd and welded on the >> corners? and if so, what type of aluminum stock should I use? > > Schedule 40 tied down at 1' intervals should be plenty strong. Hmmm... > maybe something to consider: you could have a shop cut the pieces to > length, using a "fishmouth" cutter where the uprights meet the main > tube, and bolt'em down using Monel screws. Just a thought, if you want > to avoid welding unfamiliar material. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15339|15337|2007-11-03 22:14:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel mechanics? Kubota vs Mitsubishi?|On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 01:41:45AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > That's the issue, > 12hp vs a 13hp > its for a genset decision. > Thanks for any opinions/experiences. Heh. Believe it or not, depending on the engine models, these may well be exactly the same block, etc. I run a Mitsubishi 4DQ50 (52HP, marinized by a Dutch company, Samofa - which I find quite humorous, since in my milk language, a "samovar"... well, I assume everybody knows what that is. :) It's one of the most "tolerant" diesels I've ever come across; it's taken me through some very high pucker-factor situations, and run reliably even when I knew I was pushing it past reasonable limits. The only failures I've ever experienced with it were 1) the starter solenoid and 2) low power output. The first taught me to keep a Kubota tractor manual on board - the engine is exactly the same, but the parts are available *here*, in the US - and cost about 1/3-1/10 of the "original" Mitsu parts, which often have to ship from Japan and can take up to *six* *weeks*! The second one just took an injector rebuild - and I found an absolutely fantastic shop that does them, right here in Jacksonville. Overall, it's been a great engine. I learned how to work on diesels in the Army, so I do all my own maintenance and troubleshooting. The Mitsu and I have become _really_ good friends over the years; it's treated me very nicely, and I've always returned the favor. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15340|15322|2007-11-03 22:45:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 09:42:47PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a > number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, > and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for adding > rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than for > TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. I *did* say "the pros here will disagree", didn't I? :) Gary, most of the aluminum welds I've seen, including those done by people who supposedly knew what they were doing, were just plain BAD. You'd laugh (or cringe) at those welds; anybody who knows what a good weld is supposed to be would. If you work in an environment where inspection is a regular thing, it's easy to forget that the average welder is a guy with a buzzbox using hanger wire to "glue" his broken hitch back on - and the greatest majority of welders out there are closer to that average than to being a real professional. To give an example, my wife and I walked the temporary bypass bridge that recently got thrown up across the Matanzas river, just north of where I'm anchored; we had both just finished our accelerated welding course, and wanted to see what "real" welding looked like. Out of every 10 welds we saw, at least 9 would fail even a cursory visual inspection (mostly, way too hot - and generally either moving way too fast or way too slow.) I'd be willing to bet even money that a real inspection would fail every one of them. Note that the city here didn't go with the low bidder on this job; they're trying to restore a historical artifact (the Bridge of Lions), so they spent a bunch of money hiring what they thought was top quality. This is pretty much in line with my general experience of aluminum welds I've seen. Incidentally, hanging off the side of the bridge and just past the control booth, there's a set of traffic signals for the boats. Whoever did the aluminum welding on _those_ was a real pro: you could see that steady hand and good penetration right off. If I'd been wearing a hat, I'd have taken it off. :) Next to it, all the rest of the welds looked like kindergarteners scribbling with crayons. In short: it's not only possible to do good MIG work on aluminum, it's not even that hard. The problem is that "not even that hard" is too hard - or at least too much trouble - for most welders. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15341|15337|2007-11-04 00:28:06|Harry James|Re: Diesel mechanics? Kubota vs Mitsubishi?|Kubota parts are available at NAPA. One of the selling points for Beta Marine engines. HJ seeratlas wrote: > That's the issue, > 12hp vs a 13hp > its for a genset decision. > Thanks for any opinions/experiences. > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15342|15322|2007-11-04 17:21:51|brentswain38|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Tig is as slow as a government refund ,and not all at reliable when it comes to penetration Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 09:42:47PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Ben, > > MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a > > number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, > > and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for adding > > rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than for > > TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. > > I *did* say "the pros here will disagree", didn't I? :) > > Gary, most of the aluminum welds I've seen, including those done by > people who supposedly knew what they were doing, were just plain BAD. > You'd laugh (or cringe) at those welds; anybody who knows what a good > weld is supposed to be would. If you work in an environment where > inspection is a regular thing, it's easy to forget that the average > welder is a guy with a buzzbox using hanger wire to "glue" his broken > hitch back on - and the greatest majority of welders out there are > closer to that average than to being a real professional. > > To give an example, my wife and I walked the temporary bypass bridge > that recently got thrown up across the Matanzas river, just north of > where I'm anchored; we had both just finished our accelerated welding > course, and wanted to see what "real" welding looked like. Out of every > 10 welds we saw, at least 9 would fail even a cursory visual inspection > (mostly, way too hot - and generally either moving way too fast or way > too slow.) I'd be willing to bet even money that a real inspection would > fail every one of them. Note that the city here didn't go with the low > bidder on this job; they're trying to restore a historical artifact (the > Bridge of Lions), so they spent a bunch of money hiring what they > thought was top quality. > > This is pretty much in line with my general experience of aluminum welds > I've seen. > > Incidentally, hanging off the side of the bridge and just past the > control booth, there's a set of traffic signals for the boats. Whoever > did the aluminum welding on _those_ was a real pro: you could see that > steady hand and good penetration right off. If I'd been wearing a hat, > I'd have taken it off. :) Next to it, all the rest of the welds looked > like kindergarteners scribbling with crayons. > > In short: it's not only possible to do good MIG work on aluminum, it's > not even that hard. The problem is that "not even that hard" is too hard > - or at least too much trouble - for most welders. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15343|15132|2007-11-04 17:27:42|brentswain38|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of luck if you get one that works. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- > > New in factory crate > > Ebay item 200168174448 > > Cheers, Jim > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > > > > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the > big > > amp > > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and 6.5kw's > are > > > insane LOL. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release > Date: > > 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15344|15321|2007-11-04 17:30:54|brentswain38|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, to prevent drumming. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has run a > dry exhaust... > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust from > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the boat. > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust thru a > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that is > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to put > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to prevent > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be *bad* > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would be a > good idea too. > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :)hehehe. > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could be > inserted into pipes for now. > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > any advice is appreciated. > > seer > | 15345|15171|2007-11-04 17:36:47|brentswain38|Re: steel boat building|Depends on what kind of sand you use. 16 grit will definitly skin you. Beach sand is round and fine and will not skin you. It will also resist wear far better than softer materials. I had a paint wear problem on the cockpit sole. I finaly put a heavy layer of epoxy tar down and piled beach sand on top and let it set. Then I swept the excess away and gave it another coat, followed by enamel. There is no chance of wearing thru that sand in my lifetime. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Cork would wear down much quicker than sand if a boat was used full > > time.OK for weekenders. > > Brent > > > Sand in paint is a good but very crude method of creating a non-slip > surface, and will easily take skin off if anyone should fall against > it. I've used both sand and sugar, and although sugar is much kinder > to the skin, the surface will tend to collect dirt and needs > washing-down regularly. Neither method is insulating. > > I think Trevor Robertson and Annie Hill (and numerous other full- time > Wylo cruisers) would be amused to hear them being described as > 'weekenders' . > > The covering doesn't finish-up as cork - that's the whole point. The > resulting material is a composite epoxy-cork mix which has extremely > good wear qualities, and unlike wood has an identical coefficient of > linear expansion as the paint used underneath it on the deck. This is > not a pie-in-the sky theoretical idea - it's on dozens of boats, and > working well. No-one who has used this method has reverted to using > sand in paint (afaik). > > Colin > | 15346|15333|2007-11-04 17:38:18|brentswain38|Re: Any BS 36 feet bilge keel boats for sale?|Don't know of at the momen. Where are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > I would be happy to receive any available information or offers on > Brent Swain 36' bilge keel boats for sale. > > If I find the right boat, quick closing is possible. > > Knut > | 15347|15132|2007-11-04 17:42:57|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Heheh Brent :) I think it was meant a bit tongue in cheek. :) when you went to the ebay site, it looked like a fold up chair you sat on and pumped some bicycle pedals to turn the generator :) heheheh. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > luck if you get one that works. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > > > > > Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- > > > > New in factory crate > > > > Ebay item 200168174448 > > > > Cheers, Jim > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: seeratlas > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:07 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Gen sets prices...WHOA! > > > > > > > > > > > > What have you guys decided to do about gensets? just run the > > big > > > amp > > > > alternaters off the aux? Current prices for even 5 and > 6.5kw's > > are > > > > insane LOL. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1092 - Release > > Date: > > > 10/25/2007 1:14 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 15348|15321|2007-11-04 17:46:58|seeratlas|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so I can plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat out of it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the flap would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest I affix the leading edge to the hull? thanx btw :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, > to prevent drumming. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has > run a > > dry exhaust... > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust > from > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > boat. > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > thru a > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that > is > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to > put > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > prevent > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > *bad* > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would > be a > > good idea too. > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :)hehehe. > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could > be > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > seer > > > | 15349|15292|2007-11-04 17:47:21|brentswain38|Re: Competition for AirHead|This proves that there is no valid patent for the design. It's public domain.The Chinese will be putting out tens of thoousands within the next 5 years for everything from campers to cottages, for under $100. I found that a squirt of liquid dishwashing detergent in the liquids compartment is far more effective in stopping odours , and disolves the scale that builds up , works far better than vinegar. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Appears to be a new player in the marine composting toilet arena. > Looks like higher capacity but will have to get details. In any event, > its cheaper. > > http://www.ecovita.net/boat.html > > seer > | 15350|733|2007-11-04 17:52:40|brentswain38|Re: Brent's book|It works for a year or so. The duty cycle is not 100% as the field windings get hot and eventually burn ,if you don' t switch off the field and let it cool often. There is room for heavier windings in the field. I plan to give it a try with a burned out one soon.I just have to figure out how heavy I can go with the wire and still get the same number of turns in the space available.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Brent, did you perfect the small engine driven alternator welder? Is that the welder update in your book? I may have to buy another book from you, if so. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15351|733|2007-11-04 18:03:54|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Brent's book|Brent, You can try square copper wire also. Gives you more cross-section per wind. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's book It works for a year or so. The duty cycle is not 100% as the field windings get hot and eventually burn ,if you don' t switch off the field and let it cool often. There is room for heavier windings in the field. I plan to give it a try with a burned out one soon.I just have to figure out how heavy I can go with the wire and still get the same number of turns in the space available.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Brent, did you perfect the small engine driven alternator welder? Is that the welder update in your book? I may have to buy another book from you, if so. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15352|15321|2007-11-04 18:04:00|brentswain38|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Recessing the outlet would be a good idea. You could weld in a couple of flush SS acorn nuts at the leading edge , to take a couple of 3/8th inch flathead ss bolts with ss washers to hold the flap. The washers shoud be just big enough to not be able to make it thru the bolt heads.Drilling a 45 degre bevel on one side of the washer should get them close to flush. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so I can > plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat out of > it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you > propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the flap > would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest I > affix the leading edge to the hull? > > thanx btw :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, > > to prevent drumming. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has > > run a > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust > > from > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > > boat. > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > > thru a > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that > > is > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to > > put > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > > prevent > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > > *bad* > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would > > be a > > > good idea too. > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) hehehe. > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could > > be > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 15353|15321|2007-11-04 18:33:24|polaris041|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Brent. Any ideas what the maximum depth below the water line for the exhaust outlet could be before back pressure became a problem. Or, what is the maximum you have experience of. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Recessing the outlet would be a good idea. You could weld in a couple > of flush SS acorn nuts at the leading edge , to take a couple of > 3/8th inch flathead ss bolts with ss washers to hold the flap. The > washers shoud be just big enough to not be able to make it thru the > bolt heads.Drilling a 45 degre bevel on one side of the washer should > get them close to flush. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so I > can > > plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat out > of > > it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you > > propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the > flap > > would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest I > > affix the leading edge to the hull? > > > > thanx btw :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like > hell. > > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid > point, > > > to prevent drumming. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who > has > > > run a > > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry > exhaust > > > from > > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > > > boat. > > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising > Sailor > > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking > for > > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > > > thru a > > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe > that > > > is > > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown > diameter > > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around > the > > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and > looking > > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed > that > > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise > to > > > put > > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > > > prevent > > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the > standpipe > > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > > > *bad* > > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe > would > > > be a > > > > good idea too. > > > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out > of a > > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to > hitting > > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and > help > > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from > the > > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) > hehehe. > > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it > could > > > be > > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of > weeks so > > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 15354|15321|2007-11-04 18:55:46|seeratlas|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Sounds good. I assume I want a similar setup for the genset and not run the two of em thru the same pipe, right? I would need some kind of one way valve in both headers to prevent moist air from being blown back up towards the exhausts correct? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Recessing the outlet would be a good idea. You could weld in a couple > of flush SS acorn nuts at the leading edge , to take a couple of > 3/8th inch flathead ss bolts with ss washers to hold the flap. The > washers shoud be just big enough to not be able to make it thru the > bolt heads.Drilling a 45 degre bevel on one side of the washer should > get them close to flush. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so I > can > > plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat out > of > > it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you > > propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the > flap > > would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest I > > affix the leading edge to the hull? > > > > thanx btw :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like > hell. > > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid > point, > > > to prevent drumming. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who > has > > > run a > > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry > exhaust > > > from > > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > > > boat. > > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising > Sailor > > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking > for > > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > > > thru a > > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe > that > > > is > > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown > diameter > > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around > the > > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and > looking > > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed > that > > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise > to > > > put > > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > > > prevent > > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the > standpipe > > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > > > *bad* > > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe > would > > > be a > > > > good idea too. > > > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out > of a > > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to > hitting > > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and > help > > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from > the > > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) > hehehe. > > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it > could > > > be > > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of > weeks so > > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 15355|15321|2007-11-04 19:00:20|seeratlas|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Pol, I think I read Brent or maybe Brian over on the metal boat society forums that a diesel mech has said up to 3 feet was fine. One thing I've been thinking about is the situation where you're in big waves running under power. a ten or 12 footer washing over you is going to 'raise the water level' quite a bit :) heheh. Something to think about on all your standing pipe levels. Would be a real bummer to have your engine keep quitting due to back pressure when you may need it most :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Brent. > Any ideas what the maximum depth below the water line for the exhaust > outlet could be before back pressure became a problem. > Or, what is the maximum you have experience of. > > later pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Recessing the outlet would be a good idea. You could weld in a > couple > > of flush SS acorn nuts at the leading edge , to take a couple of > > 3/8th inch flathead ss bolts with ss washers to hold the flap. The > > washers shoud be just big enough to not be able to make it thru the > > bolt heads.Drilling a 45 degre bevel on one side of the washer > should > > get them close to flush. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so > I > > can > > > plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat > out > > of > > > it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you > > > propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the > > flap > > > would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest > I > > > affix the leading edge to the hull? > > > > > > thanx btw :) > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like > > hell. > > > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid > > point, > > > > to prevent drumming. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who > > has > > > > run a > > > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry > > exhaust > > > > from > > > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of > the > > > > boat. > > > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising > > Sailor > > > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking > > for > > > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the > exhaust > > > > thru a > > > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless > standpipe > > that > > > > is > > > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown > > diameter > > > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction > around > > the > > > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and > > looking > > > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed > > that > > > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably > wise > > to > > > > put > > > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe > to > > > > prevent > > > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the > > standpipe > > > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would > be > > > > *bad* > > > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe > > would > > > > be a > > > > > good idea too. > > > > > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out > > of a > > > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to > > hitting > > > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler > and > > help > > > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils > from > > the > > > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) > > hehehe. > > > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it > > could > > > > be > > > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of > > weeks so > > > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15356|10771|2007-11-04 20:41:52|Tom|BS 26 progress|Hello All Uploaded a few pictures of my progress. Atomic 4 is in and lined up, exhaust, and skeg water cooling hooked up and tested, need to finish up the linkage and fuel tank. made solid engine mounts out of stainless, sloted bolt holes on mill and cut the threads on lathe and I can say this machining stainless is slow and hard on tools. Cabin sole braces are in and made up a pattern out of old plywood and bolted it in, ended up with 5' 11-1/2" headroom and thats to the bottom of the 1" cabin stringer. I was all gung ho to paint inside but I have a lot of bulkhead tabs and such to weld in, so I am going to get the interior roughed in first whitch bring up a question, What thickness of plywood is strong enough? I'm thinkin 1/2" AC DF but not sure if 3/4" would be better for bulkheads. Plywood sure aint cheap anymore, I was quoted $26 a sheet for 1/2" AC but it does look like good stuff. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15357|15322|2007-11-04 20:56:23|peter_d_wiley|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tig is as slow as a government refund ,and not all at reliable when > it comes to penetration > Brent Totally disagree. Penetration with TIG is 100% reliable - if you know what you're doing. It definitely is slow, but it is also reliable. MIG, OTOH, I don't trust for penetration at all. I rarely even use mine for fab work on RHS and the only reason I have one is, it was dirt cheap and a 3 phase industrial model belonging to a friend's father. FWIW, for many years I was in the marine research biz where we'd send upwards of $USD 500K in gear deep underwater, to 5000m plus. Those pressure vessels, when not machined from solid, were *TIG* welded together. PDW| 15358|10771|2007-11-04 22:17:28|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 progress|That is really nice craftsmanship, on a nice little 'ship'. Looks seaworthy as hell to me. What sail area did you decide upon and what do you figure she'll weigh in the water ready to head out? seer Oh, is there a muffler on that exhaust? Atomics aren't really all that loud, but unmuffled exhaust can really wear you down if you have to run it for any substantial period of time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Uploaded a few pictures of my progress. Atomic 4 is in and lined up, exhaust, and skeg water cooling hooked up and tested, need to finish up the linkage and fuel tank. made solid engine mounts out of stainless, sloted bolt holes on mill and cut the threads on lathe and I can say this machining stainless is slow and hard on tools. > Cabin sole braces are in and made up a pattern out of old plywood and bolted it in, ended up with 5' 11-1/2" headroom and thats to the bottom of the 1" cabin stringer. I was all gung ho to paint inside but I have a lot of bulkhead tabs and such to weld in, so I am going to get the interior roughed in first whitch bring up a question, What thickness of plywood is strong enough? I'm thinkin 1/2" AC DF but not sure if 3/4" would be better for bulkheads. > Plywood sure aint cheap anymore, I was quoted $26 a sheet for 1/2" AC but it does look like good stuff. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15359|733|2007-11-04 22:37:58|seeratlas|Re: Brent's book|What kind of duty cycle are you running? and how did you ultimately decide to mount the external diode pack? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It works for a year or so. The duty cycle is not 100% as the field > windings get hot and eventually burn ,if you don' t switch off the > field and let it cool often. There is room for heavier windings in the > field. I plan to give it a try with a burned out one soon.I just have > to figure out how heavy I can go with the wire and still get the same > number of turns in the space available.. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > Brent, did you perfect the small engine driven alternator welder? Is > that the welder update in your book? I may have to buy another book > from you, if so. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15360|10771|2007-11-04 23:33:06|Tom|Re: BS 26 progress|Thanks Seer To start with I am running the short rig on it just to get out sailing after that I have a few ideas on a steel mast. Not sure on weight yet, plan says 6700lbs probably be close to that heck she gained 2200 just the last couple weekends. No muffler but it does exit underwater, Its actualy pretty quiet at lower rpms and if Im figuring right should be cruising around 1400 rpm's with plenty of reserve. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 progress > That is really nice craftsmanship, on a nice little 'ship'. Looks > seaworthy as hell to me. What sail area did you decide upon and what > do you figure she'll weigh in the water ready to head out? > > seer > > Oh, is there a muffler on that exhaust? Atomics aren't really all that > loud, but unmuffled exhaust can really wear you down if you have to > run it for any substantial period of time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> Uploaded a few pictures of my progress. Atomic 4 is in and lined > up, exhaust, and skeg water cooling hooked up and tested, need to > finish up the linkage and fuel tank. made solid engine mounts out of > stainless, sloted bolt holes on mill and cut the threads on lathe and > I can say this machining stainless is slow and hard on tools. >> Cabin sole braces are in and made up a pattern out of old plywood > and bolted it in, ended up with 5' 11-1/2" headroom and thats to the > bottom of the 1" cabin stringer. I was all gung ho to paint inside but > I have a lot of bulkhead tabs and such to weld in, so I am going to > get the interior roughed in first whitch bring up a question, What > thickness of plywood is strong enough? I'm thinkin 1/2" AC DF but not > sure if 3/4" would be better for bulkheads. >> Plywood sure aint cheap anymore, I was quoted $26 a sheet for 1/2" > AC but it does look like good stuff. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15361|15132|2007-11-05 00:27:04|Harry James|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|The original Hardy diesels had good quality control insisted on by Hardy. I have heard stories that this went downhill after he retired. http://www.hardydiesel.com/ It is hard to tell what you are getting on any of these deals. You could buy ten diesels from the same distributor and they could come from 10 different factories, all looking the same. A friend bought a couple of Lister knockoffs form India. He had to completely disassemble them and clean them up but said it was well worth it. HJ brentswain38 wrote: > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > luck if you get one that works. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > >> Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- >> >> New in factory crate >> >> Ebay item 200168174448 >> >> Cheers, Jim >> >> > | 15362|15132|2007-11-05 00:51:19|Harry James|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Wrong link, meant to send to the Hardy Marine http://www.hardydiesel.com/mrn/Index.htm HJ Harry James wrote: > The original Hardy diesels had good quality control insisted on by > Hardy. I have heard stories that this went downhill after he retired. > > http://www.hardydiesel.com/ > > It is hard to tell what you are getting on any of these deals. You could > buy ten diesels from the same distributor and they could come from 10 > different factories, all looking the same. A friend bought a couple of > Lister knockoffs form India. He had to completely disassemble them and > clean them up but said it was well worth it. > > HJ > > brentswain38 wrote: > >> The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their >> act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his >> first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the >> head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill >> cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . >> They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but >> I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of >> horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of >> luck if you get one that works. >> Brent >> >> > | 15363|15132|2007-11-05 02:53:32|jim_both|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I bought a chinese-made air compressor and after replacing the starting capacitor and the pressure regulator it has give me very good service. Jim| 15364|15292|2007-11-05 05:29:48|sae140|Re: Competition for AirHead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I found that a squirt of liquid dishwashing detergent in the liquids > compartment is far more effective in stopping odours , and disolves the > scale that builds up , works far better than vinegar. > Brent A trick used by prisoners in British Victorian jails (before the cells were converted to flush toilets) was to place a bar of soap in the overnight bucket. No liquid detergent in those days - but same kinda thinking ... Colin| 15365|15132|2007-11-05 10:02:53|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I've been told by mechanics to do the same thing. When you buy one of these, tear it down FIRST, and make sure miscellaneous bits and pieces aren't floating around inside. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > The original Hardy diesels had good quality control insisted on by > Hardy. I have heard stories that this went downhill after he retired. > > http://www.hardydiesel.com/ > > It is hard to tell what you are getting on any of these deals. You could > buy ten diesels from the same distributor and they could come from 10 > different factories, all looking the same. A friend bought a couple of > Lister knockoffs form India. He had to completely disassemble them and > clean them up but said it was well worth it. > > HJ > > brentswain38 wrote: > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > > luck if you get one that works. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > > wrote: > > > >> Very-nice-Chinese-military-vietnam-era-generator- > >> > >> New in factory crate > >> > >> Ebay item 200168174448 > >> > >> Cheers, Jim > >> > >> > > > | 15366|15366|2007-11-05 11:12:21|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Used engine oil in diesel heater|Be really careful with this! If you don't burn it hot enough the exhaust fumes are really dangerous. Similar to burning glycerine from biodiesel production...just a wiff if it isn't burnt hot & yous ded man. a wee fan to introduce some extra 02 might be a good bit of insurance to make sure it's good & hot when burning. Clarity of exhaust is the indicator. Please let us know how it works for you. Thanks Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 15367|15367|2007-11-05 18:56:50|seeratlas|Laugh it up :)|I must go down to the sea again, in a modern high-tech boat, And all I ask is electric, for comfort while afloat, And alternators, and solar panels, and generators going, And deep cycle batteries with many amperes flowing. I must go down to the sea again, to the autopilot's ways, And all I ask is a GPS, and a radar, and displays, And a cell phone, and a weatherfax, and a shortwave radio, And compact disks, computer games and TV videos. I must go down to the sea again, with a freezer full of steaks, And all I ask is a microwave, and a blender for milkshakes, And a watermaker, air-conditioner, hot water in the sink, And e-mail and a VHF to see what my buddies think. I must go down to the sea again, with power-furling sails, And chart displays of all the seas, and a bullhorn for loud hails, And motors pulling anchor chains, and push-button sheets, And programs which take full charge of tacking during beats. I must go down to the sea again, and not leave friends behind, And so they never get seasick we'll use the web online, And all I ask is an Internet with satellites over me, And beaming all the data up, my friends sail virtually. I must go down to the sea again, record the humpback whales, Compute until I decipher their language and their tales, And learn to sing in harmony, converse beneath the waves, And befriend the gentle giants as my synthesizer plays. I must go down to the sea again, with RAM in gigabytes, and teraflops of processing for hobbies that I like, And software suiting all my wants, seated at my console And pushing on the buttons which give me complete control. I must go down to the sea again, my concept seems quite sound, But when I simulate this boat, some problems I have found. The cost is astronomical, repairs will never stop, Instead of going sailing, I'll be shackled to the dock. I must go down to the sea again, how can I get away? Must I be locked in low-tech boats until my dying day? Is there no cure for my complaint, no technologic fix? Oh, I fear this electric fever is a habit I can't kick. written by Brian Eiland cat designer/builder| 15368|15367|2007-11-05 19:10:00|seeratlas|Re: Laugh it up :) ok, I Like this thread :)|One day a blonde was driving down the highway when she saw another blonde on the side of the road trying to row in a boat. The blonde pulled over and said "You know it's people like you that give us blondes a bad name, if I knew how to swim I'd come out there and kick your ass". :) seer| 15369|15130|2007-11-05 19:34:11|mark hamill|Re: Hooka rigs-er for diving :) lol|Question: How do you keep the hookah lit underwater?:} Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Got a Brownies Third lung, powered by a 3.5HP brigs, with two 70 ft > hoses. Oiles compressor. Tried it to 70 ft, good for pleasure , but > wouldn't want to do heavy work at that depth. Taking it easy I could > make it to 100 feet. Love it. > Got rid of the float. Much easier to put it in my dinghy. > Brnt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent, What kind of hookah rig did you get and how do you like it? > > Anyone else familiar with these things? > > seer > > > | 15370|15367|2007-11-05 20:05:35|Tom|Re: Laugh it up :)|LMAO when I read that. aint that about the truth of it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Laugh it up :) >I must go down to the sea again, in a modern high-tech boat, > And all I ask is electric, for comfort while afloat, > And alternators, and solar panels, and generators going, > And deep cycle batteries with many amperes flowing. > > I must go down to the sea again, to the autopilot's ways, > And all I ask is a GPS, and a radar, and displays, > And a cell phone, and a weatherfax, and a shortwave radio, > And compact disks, computer games and TV videos. > > I must go down to the sea again, with a freezer full of steaks, > And all I ask is a microwave, and a blender for milkshakes, > And a watermaker, air-conditioner, hot water in the sink, > And e-mail and a VHF to see what my buddies think. > > I must go down to the sea again, with power-furling sails, > And chart displays of all the seas, and a bullhorn for loud hails, > And motors pulling anchor chains, and push-button sheets, > And programs which take full charge of tacking during beats. > > I must go down to the sea again, and not leave friends behind, > And so they never get seasick we'll use the web online, > And all I ask is an Internet with satellites over me, > And beaming all the data up, my friends sail virtually. > > I must go down to the sea again, record the humpback whales, > Compute until I decipher their language and their tales, > And learn to sing in harmony, converse beneath the waves, > And befriend the gentle giants as my synthesizer plays. > > I must go down to the sea again, with RAM in gigabytes, > and teraflops of processing for hobbies that I like, > And software suiting all my wants, seated at my console > And pushing on the buttons which give me complete control. > > I must go down to the sea again, my concept seems quite sound, > But when I simulate this boat, some problems I have found. > The cost is astronomical, repairs will never stop, > Instead of going sailing, I'll be shackled to the dock. > > I must go down to the sea again, how can I get away? > Must I be locked in low-tech boats until my dying day? > Is there no cure for my complaint, no technologic fix? > Oh, I fear this electric fever is a habit I can't kick. > > written by Brian Eiland > cat designer/builder > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15371|15132|2007-11-05 22:54:16|Michael Casling|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) are okay. I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > luck if you get one that works. > Brent | 15372|15132|2007-11-05 23:30:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|On Tue, Nov 06, 2007 at 03:54:15AM -0000, Michael Casling wrote: > My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) > are okay. > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. I mostly agree with the above - I really hate cheap crap that doesn't last - but I have to mention one exception that I've found: _some_ of the electric power tools that Harbor Freight sells ("Chicago Electric" brand, made in China) are surprisingly good for the price. E.g., their 4.5" grinders ($18 on sale) have proven to be very, very tough; ditto their hammer drill ($49, I think.) With all the fiddling I've been doing with Ulysses, I've done a lot of cutting and grinding, and these things have definitely stood the test. I haven't abused that drill quite as much as I have the grinders, but it's had its share of hell and took it well. Ulysses came with a bunch of tools on board, including three grinders - two old Milwaukees and an old Makita. I burned those out in the first week of using them and replaced them with the above. At that price, it didn't hurt even a little bit. Later, after seeing how good they are, I bought a spare and sealed it up in a vaccuum bag. Frankly, given that they're still going almost four years later, I'm actually thinking of buying a second spare (it would be nice to break out brand new tools if I need to do a big project in, say, Patagonia.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15373|15132|2007-11-06 09:56:22|David A. Frantz|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|My results from the purchase of Chines equipment is highly mixed also. In any event you can sometimes be farther ahead if you go the chinese route and buy a new motor when the supplied unit goes south. This works on stationary equipment at least. So while it is a buyer be aware situation, people willing to benefit can gain from the imports. The other problem is that it is getting hard to find products other than the chinese imports. Dave Michael Casling wrote: > > My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) > are okay. > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. > > Michael > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > > luck if you get one that works. > > Brent > > | 15374|15321|2007-11-06 11:48:12|seeratlas|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Brent, I assume I want to make sure that the bubble flow isn't going to go back and cavitate the prop :) any other suggestions for 'gotchas' to avoid? I need to get this planned out this week :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, > to prevent drumming. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has > run a > > dry exhaust... > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust > from > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > boat. > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > thru a > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that > is > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to > put > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > prevent > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > *bad* > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would > be a > > good idea too. > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :)hehehe. > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could > be > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > seer > > > | 15375|15375|2007-11-06 11:49:08|seeratlas|Pro Boat Builder Mag on line|If you havn't seen this, might be worth reading. Just finished a pretty good article on shore power/onboard power gotchas and don't do's. seer http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20071011/| 15376|15376|2007-11-06 12:00:59|seeratlas|Ok, Nigel On diesel electric good reading|http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20071011/ (especially the electric assisted motorsailing part heheheh) seer| 15377|15376|2007-11-06 12:32:31|seeratlas|Re: Ok, Nigel On diesel electric good reading|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20071011/ > > (especially the electric assisted motorsailing part heheheh) > > seer > One more thin, for those that have been loosely following my planned installation, turns out Nigel covers it at the end of the article under "Parallel Diesel Electric"....Given the circumstances, if I read him right, he concurs that this solution may be the best all around for the reasons stated :) Now we'll just have to see if all works LOL. seer| 15378|15321|2007-11-06 13:24:56|edward_stoneuk|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Seer, Especially if your engine is on anti vibration mounts and you are using stainless bellows for your flexible exhaust connection the axis of the bellows should be perpendicular to the crankshaft so that the bellows are compressed and expanded rather than moved sideways. I meant to take a photo of mine last weekend to explain but forgot. I will try and remember this weekend. I think Brian on the Metal Boat forum explained this a few years ago. I put my exhaust out through the transom as I was concerned about the through hull, but plenty of boats especially small passenger carriers exhaust under water. As they roll and the exhaust comes out of the water one can hear them roar. Regards, Ted| 15379|15321|2007-11-06 13:56:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Seer, I am not sure if your exhaust is exiting below the wateline or not.....excuse me if it is above ;). I tried to find some figures on how deep you can put the exhaust outlet and I couldn't find anything other than in Nigel Calders book Marine Diesels. It says total back pressure for a naturally aspirated diesel should be no more than 40 inches of water, 20 inches for a turbo diesel. 40 inches is about 1.5 psi. Keep in mind that is that is TOTAL pressure read at the engine when it is FULLY loaded. The engine will be pumping a lot of air in that mode through all the restrictions of the fittings and the lines. He gives a method of measuring it with a manometer but that doesn't help you in the design stage. My gut feeling is that the exhaust shouldn't be more than 6 inches or so below the waterline. The less back pressure the better. Your engine will run cooler, smoke less and have more power. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:47:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice. Brent, I assume I want to make sure that the bubble flow isn't going to go back and cavitate the prop :) any other suggestions for 'gotchas' to avoid? I need to get this planned out this week :) seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, > to prevent drumming. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has > run a > > dry exhaust... > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust > from > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > boat. > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > thru a > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that > is > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to > put > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > prevent > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > *bad* > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would > be a > > good idea too. > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :)hehehe. > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could > be > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > seer > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15380|15132|2007-11-06 14:19:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Just about everything is made in China now.....maybe the Makita tools as well ;). The July 2007 issue of Yachting Monthly has a very interesting article written about UK sailmakers getting sails made in China and then passing them off as "Made in the UK" without telling their customers. The China Sail Factory has an 18,000 sq meter factory and according to the article have gotten as much as $3,000,000 dollars worth of orders in a 3 week period. All of this is through sailmakers like your local loft, they don't deal direct. Cheers, Paul My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) > are okay. > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15381|15376|2007-11-06 14:28:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Ok, Nigel On diesel electric good reading|Thanks Seer, I just noticed that this also has the article about the China sail loft in it titled Industrial Sails. Its the same article in Yachting Monthly I quoted. How serendipitous. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 6:00:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Ok, Nigel On diesel electric good reading http://www.proboat- digital.com/ proboat/20071011 / (especially the electric assisted motorsailing part heheheh) seer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15382|15382|2007-11-06 19:40:56|seeratlas|Anyone out there a Ham?|Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I can't use one or both of them on the boat? seer| 15383|15383|2007-11-06 21:14:55|Tom|gas tanks|Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made several gas tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on the inside and I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to a friend of mine at local parts supply store and they have a kit for doing the inside of tank, it's a special cleaner then an etcher then some white stuff you slosh around the inside that is some kind of special coating . He said it holds up realy well and is used a lot for restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of safe options on where I can mount it , looks like starboard side of engine is about it, would prefer the weight a little more forward but that would not be legal or safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep weight down and that should give me around 15 hours of run time. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15384|15383|2007-11-06 21:30:25|Aaron Williams|Re: gas tanks|Tom For that small of tank why not go wth a hard mounted plastic tank? Tempo has several options. Aaron Tom wrote: Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made several gas tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on the inside and I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to a friend of mine at local parts supply store and they have a kit for doing the inside of tank, it's a special cleaner then an etcher then some white stuff you slosh around the inside that is some kind of special coating . He said it holds up realy well and is used a lot for restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of safe options on where I can mount it , looks like starboard side of engine is about it, would prefer the weight a little more forward but that would not be legal or safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep weight down and that should give me around 15 hours of run time. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15385|15383|2007-11-06 22:49:52|Tom|Re: gas tanks|Hey Aaron Plastic tank would be simpler but the shape I want to keep it as close to floor as possable I havnt seen in plastic. I havnt had much luck with plastic fuel tanks, steel can take a little flame,sparks and such without problem, plastic melts in a hurry "been there" . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] gas tanks > Tom > For that small of tank why not go wth a hard mounted plastic tank? Tempo > has several options. > Aaron > > > Tom wrote: > Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? > Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made several gas > tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on the inside and > I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to a friend of mine at > local parts supply store and they have a kit for doing the inside of tank, > it's a special cleaner then an etcher then some white stuff you slosh > around the inside that is some kind of special coating . He said it holds > up realy well and is used a lot for restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of > safe options on where I can mount it , looks like starboard side of engine > is about it, would prefer the weight a little more forward but that would > not be legal or safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep > weight down and that should give me around 15 hours of run time. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15386|15383|2007-11-07 00:17:14|Aaron Williams|Re: gas tanks|Thats close to what I answered when I built my aluminum tank for my other boat. Tom wrote: Hey Aaron Plastic tank would be simpler but the shape I want to keep it as close to floor as possable I havnt seen in plastic. I havnt had much luck with plastic fuel tanks, steel can take a little flame,sparks and such without problem, plastic melts in a hurry "been there" . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] gas tanks > Tom > For that small of tank why not go wth a hard mounted plastic tank? Tempo > has several options. > Aaron > > > Tom wrote: > Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? > Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made several gas > tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on the inside and > I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to a friend of mine at > local parts supply store and they have a kit for doing the inside of tank, > it's a special cleaner then an etcher then some white stuff you slosh > around the inside that is some kind of special coating . He said it holds > up realy well and is used a lot for restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of > safe options on where I can mount it , looks like starboard side of engine > is about it, would prefer the weight a little more forward but that would > not be legal or safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep > weight down and that should give me around 15 hours of run time. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15387|15382|2007-11-07 01:58:44|Gordon Schnell|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|Seer I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > seer > > | 15388|15383|2007-11-07 07:40:44|audeojude|Re: gas tanks|Serendipitously I just happened to be reading Nigel Calders book "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" yesterday and he addressed galvanizing fuel tanks. He recomended against it for diesel as he said it would break down the galvanizing and turn it into a fuel filter blocking sludge. I seem to remember that gas didn't do this according to him. ok i just went back and looked again.. top recomendation seemed to be for mild steel tanks galvanized inside and out for gas. For diesel it was under no circumstances galvanize the tank. Seal it with an appropriate epoxy paint system. he over all recommended against stainless and aluminum tanks. Plastic tanks got a thumbs up and bladders tended to get a thumbs down. Fiberglass tanks got a thumbs up but make sure the resin you used on the inside layers is one stable for exposure to gas or diesel. don't count on painting the inside of the tank to protect the fiberglass layup from the fuel. He had a story about the paint system on one of his boats starting to flake off the inside of a fiberglass tank. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? > Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made several gas tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on the inside and I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to a friend of mine at local parts supply store and they have a kit for doing the inside of tank, it's a special cleaner then an etcher then some white stuff you slosh around the inside that is some kind of special coating . He said it holds up realy well and is used a lot for restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of safe options on where I can mount it , looks like starboard side of engine is about it, would prefer the weight a little more forward but that would not be legal or safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep weight down and that should give me around 15 hours of run time. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15389|15389|2007-11-07 08:52:34|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Anyone a Ham?|The Kenwood TS700A is a 2 Meter All mode radio (144-148 Mhz. CW/SSB/FM) Still considered a good solid 2M all mode, but since a lot of the New Radios combine all the HF of the IC-720 with 6M and 2M in a smaller package..... The Kenwood is great if you like to do the weak signal modes on 2M. I know we could use some Maritime Mobile contacts for the VHF contests. The Icom 720A is a good older HF rig. Parts are hard to find if you have to do repairs. Here are some "Do it all" Radio that are fairly compact: Icom IC-706MKIIG, IC-7000, Kenwood TS-2000, Yaesu FT-857D FT-897D Pretty much all of them will do full Marine SSB once you do the MARS mods on the radio. Usually opening them up and changing solder jumpers or removing diodes. Fairly simple. For 2M FM use on repeaters with a backup emergency use on Marine VHF the Yaesu 2800 might be better. Solid radio and receives Marine VHF. Turn it on while holding a couple of buttons and it will transmit on Marine VHF also. BTW Ham VHF FM often has IRLP available on many repeaters. So when you are close ashore or anchored, many spots you can use a local Ham repeater with IRLP to talk "DX" Trinidad was at 87 degrees yesterday. Good luck Tom - KA0TP In a message dated 11/7/2007 3:29:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com writes: _Anyone out there a Ham? _ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15382;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaXJlMW1vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNz A1MTUwODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE1MzgyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ0MzQ5NDI-) Posted by: "seeratlas" _seeratlas@... _ (mailto:seeratlas@...?Subject= Re:Anyone%20out%20there%20a%20Ham?) _seeratlas _ (http://profiles. yahoo.com/seeratlas) Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:40 pm (PST) Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I can't use one or both of them on the boat? seer ____________________________________ See what's new at _AOL.com_ (http://www.aol.com/?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170) and _Make AOL Your Homepage_ (http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169) . ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15390|15383|2007-11-07 09:04:36|Tom|Re: gas tanks|Thank's I new there was some issues with galvanizing and one of the fuels, just couldnt remember which. I think I will just use 12g mild steel and that coating system for the inside, would like to have it setup so one can change over to diesel if needed without having to rip it all out and start over. The way they are changing fuels with addatives and taking out more sulfer ect. to make it burn cleaner, we dont know what will work a few years down the road. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 4:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: gas tanks > Serendipitously I just happened to be reading Nigel Calders book > "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" yesterday and he > addressed galvanizing fuel tanks. He recomended against it for diesel > as he said it would break down the galvanizing and turn it into a fuel > filter blocking sludge. I seem to remember that gas didn't do this > according to him. ok i just went back and looked again.. > > top recomendation seemed to be for mild steel tanks galvanized inside > and out for gas. > > For diesel it was under no circumstances galvanize the tank. Seal it > with an appropriate epoxy paint system. > > he over all recommended against stainless and aluminum tanks. Plastic > tanks got a thumbs up and bladders tended to get a thumbs down. > > Fiberglass tanks got a thumbs up but make sure the resin you used on > the inside layers is one stable for exposure to gas or diesel. don't > count on painting the inside of the tank to protect the fiberglass > layup from the fuel. He had a story about the paint system on one of > his boats starting to flake off the inside of a fiberglass tank. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Anyone use galvanized sheet to make gas tank? >> Just wondering if the galvanized holds up to gas, I have made > several gas tanks over the year but just use mild steel not treated on > the inside and I dont want to go that rout for the boat. I talked to > a friend of mine at local parts supply store and they have a kit for > doing the inside of tank, it's a special cleaner then an etcher then > some white stuff you slosh around the inside that is some kind of > special coating . He said it holds up realy well and is used a lot for > restoring tanks. I dont have a lot of safe options on where I can > mount it , looks like starboard side of engine is about it, would > prefer the weight a little more forward but that would not be legal or > safe. I guess I will keep it around 12 gallons to keep weight down and > that should give me around 15 hours of run time. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15391|15389|2007-11-07 09:06:55|Ray|Re: Anyone a Ham?|Please excuse the top-posting, but, - could you repeat this w/a non HAM translation? Sounds like some good info, but, damned if *I* know what you're talkin' about! Thanks! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > > > The Kenwood TS700A is a 2 Meter All mode radio (144-148 Mhz. CW/SSB/FM) > Still considered a good solid 2M all mode, but since a lot of the New Radios > combine all the HF of the IC-720 with 6M and 2M in a smaller package..... The > Kenwood is great if you like to do the weak signal modes on 2M. I know we could > use some Maritime Mobile contacts for the VHF contests. > > The Icom 720A is a good older HF rig. Parts are hard to find if you have to > do repairs. > > Here are some "Do it all" Radio that are fairly compact: > Icom IC-706MKIIG, IC-7000, Kenwood TS-2000, Yaesu FT-857D FT-897D > Pretty much all of them will do full Marine SSB once you do the MARS > mods on the radio. Usually opening them up and changing solder jumpers or > removing diodes. Fairly simple. > > For 2M FM use on repeaters with a backup emergency use on Marine VHF the > Yaesu 2800 might be better. Solid radio and receives Marine VHF. Turn it on > while holding a couple of buttons and it will transmit on Marine VHF also. > > BTW Ham VHF FM often has IRLP available on many repeaters. So when you are > close ashore or anchored, many spots you can use a local Ham repeater with IRLP > to talk "DX" Trinidad was at 87 degrees yesterday. > > Good luck > Tom - KA0TP > > In a message dated 11/7/2007 3:29:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com writes: > > _Anyone out there a Ham? _ > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15382;_ylc=X3oDMTJ yaXJlMW1vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNz > A1MTUwODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE1MzgyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ0MzQ5 NDI-) > Posted by: "seeratlas" _seeratlas@... _ > (mailto:seeratlas@...?Subject= Re:Anyone%20out%20there%20a%20Ham?) _seeratlas _ (http://profiles. > yahoo.com/seeratlas) > Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:40 pm (PST) > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > seer > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________ > See what's new at _AOL.com_ (http://www.aol.com/? NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170) > and _Make AOL Your Homepage_ > (http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169) . > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15392|15383|2007-11-07 09:58:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: gas tanks|Tom, My diesel tanks are the top of the keels. I have bought some POR 15 to seal them inside once I have had them blasted internally. Regards, Ted| 15393|15382|2007-11-07 10:09:13|seeratlas|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|Well good :) I'll try and find an manual online for it. Certainly looks like a quality unit and from what I can see, "All Band" really does mean "ALL BAND!!" heheheh There's another thing our boats will have in common Gord :) btw, you HAVE to get some pictures up on your engine and equipment platform :) seer In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Seer > I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought > after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with > tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! > Gord > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > seer > > > > > | 15394|15394|2007-11-07 10:17:13|seeratlas|Paint :)|What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. seer| 15395|15389|2007-11-07 12:32:52|silascrosby|Re: Anyone a Ham?|-Tom (KA0TP). on my boat I have an Icom V8000 2M radio which I use on the local repeaters and would be interested in making some more distant contacts via IRLP if you can give me some more info on how to do that. I am in Courtenay, Vancouver Island. It also serves as a backup for my marine VHF. I am about to get an Icom 718 as a 'basic' HF radio and will couple it with an SGC SG 230 tuner and a pactor II USB (Bluetooth) for e- mail. The 718 has been 'opened up'. Is that the same as the 'Mars mods' ? Steve VA7SKM 'Silas Crosby' -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > > > The Kenwood TS700A is a 2 Meter All mode radio (144-148 Mhz. CW/SSB/FM) > Still considered a good solid 2M all mode, but since a lot of the New Radios > combine all the HF of the IC-720 with 6M and 2M in a smaller package..... The > Kenwood is great if you like to do the weak signal modes on 2M. I know we could > use some Maritime Mobile contacts for the VHF contests. > > The Icom 720A is a good older HF rig. Parts are hard to find if you have to > do repairs. > > Here are some "Do it all" Radio that are fairly compact: > Icom IC-706MKIIG, IC-7000, Kenwood TS-2000, Yaesu FT-857D FT-897D > Pretty much all of them will do full Marine SSB once you do the MARS > mods on the radio. Usually opening them up and changing solder jumpers or > removing diodes. Fairly simple. > > For 2M FM use on repeaters with a backup emergency use on Marine VHF the > Yaesu 2800 might be better. Solid radio and receives Marine VHF. Turn it on > while holding a couple of buttons and it will transmit on Marine VHF also. > > BTW Ham VHF FM often has IRLP available on many repeaters. So when you are > close ashore or anchored, many spots you can use a local Ham repeater with IRLP > to talk "DX" Trinidad was at 87 degrees yesterday. > > Good luck > Tom - KA0TP > > In a message dated 11/7/2007 3:29:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com writes: > > _Anyone out there a Ham? _ > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15382;_ylc=X3oDMT JyaXJlMW1vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNz > A1MTUwODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE1MzgyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ0MzQ 5NDI-) > Posted by: "seeratlas" _seeratlas@... _ > (mailto:seeratlas@...?Subject= Re:Anyone%20out%20there%20a%20Ham?) _seeratlas _ (http://profiles. > yahoo.com/seeratlas) > Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:40 pm (PST) > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > seer > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________ > See what's new at _AOL.com_ (http://www.aol.com/? NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170) > and _Make AOL Your Homepage_ > (http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169) . > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15396|15394|2007-11-07 14:27:13|Harry James|Re: Paint :)|I did an awlgrip over gelcoat on an old Pearson Triton this year roll and tip. I got excellent results, three coats, sanded with 600 grit before the last one. Spendy but tough finish. http://tritonclass.org/mir/144ta.html HJ seeratlas wrote: > What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the > epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the > nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into > the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller > /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15397|15394|2007-11-07 14:48:34|seeratlas|Re: Paint :)|Very nice job :) I should be so lucky LOL. and how *spendy* is spendy? I.e. how much per gallon? oh, liked the whale pictures too. :) I once had a humpback travel alongside the 54 for about a half mile at a distance of about 100 yards off the beam...then he sounded... but not for long LOL. We were all standing there straining the horizon when he came clear out of the water did a half roll laid out then "WHUMMMMP" as he fell in just barely off our beam, the resulting the wave drenched everyone LOL>:) REal sense of humor he had :) btw, those things are REALLY big when you get to see all of em up close. most of the time, like in your pictures, just a raised fluke, a bit of the head or the dorsal and a few feet of back and all at a healthy distance, but man o man. When they come completely out, and up close, they are HUGE LOL. Dangerous too. If he had miscalculated and landed even partially on or mostlikely, even just nudged the rail...he'd probably would have sunk us. Don't know if whales *laugh* but if they do, I'll bet he's still laughing LOL>) I don't think that *ALL* that water dripping off everyone was entirely *seawater* :) One more thing, something about that hull seemed to attract whales and porpoise. Saw more marine mammals from that boat than all the other boats I've been on before or since, combined, even in the same locales. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > I did an awlgrip over gelcoat on an old Pearson Triton this year roll > and tip. I got excellent results, three coats, sanded with 600 grit > before the last one. Spendy but tough finish. > > http://tritonclass.org/mir/144ta.html > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the > > epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the > > nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into > > the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller > > /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15398|15394|2007-11-07 15:11:52|Harry James|Re: Paint :)|$150 a gallon, plus you have to buy their reducer. Cheaper than Micron bottom paint!! HJ seeratlas wrote: > Very nice job :) I should be so lucky LOL. and how *spendy* is spendy? > I.e. how much per gallon? > > oh, > > liked the whale pictures too. :) > I once had a humpback travel alongside the 54 for about a half mile at > a distance of about 100 yards off the beam...then he sounded... but > not for long LOL. > > We were all standing there straining the horizon when he came clear > out of the water did a half roll laid out then "WHUMMMMP" as he fell > in just barely off our beam, the resulting the wave drenched everyone > LOL>:) REal sense of humor he had :) > > btw, those things are REALLY big when you get to see all of em up > close. most of the time, like in your pictures, just a raised fluke, > a bit of the head or the dorsal and a few feet of back and all at a > healthy distance, but man o man. When they come completely out, and up > close, they are HUGE LOL. > > Dangerous too. If he had miscalculated and landed even partially on or > mostlikely, even just nudged the rail...he'd probably would have sunk us. > > > Don't know if whales *laugh* but if they do, I'll bet he's still > laughing LOL>) I don't think that *ALL* that water dripping off > everyone was entirely *seawater* :) > > One more thing, something about that hull seemed to attract whales and > porpoise. Saw more marine mammals from that boat than all the other > boats I've been on before or since, combined, even in the same locales. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > >> I did an awlgrip over gelcoat on an old Pearson Triton this year roll >> and tip. I got excellent results, three coats, sanded with 600 grit >> before the last one. Spendy but tough finish. >> >> http://tritonclass.org/mir/144ta.html >> >> HJ >> >> seeratlas wrote: >> >>> What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the >>> epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the >>> nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into >>> the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller >>> /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. >>> >>> seer >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15399|15394|2007-11-07 23:14:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: Paint :)|On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:17:13PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the > epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the > nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into > the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller > /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. I used what Devoe recommended - their Devthane topcoat. [shrug] Works OK, no huge complaints - but I don't have any really great compliments for the stuff, either. I'm guessing that you could use just about anything: I've asked the same question as you're asking, and it seems that once you've got enough epoxy down, your only concerns should be chip resistance, wear resistance, and UV resistance. I've heard - not only here, but from a few other folks recently - lots of good stuff about garage floor paint. The Suzuki dealership here in town just re-did the painted sidewalk in front of their store, seven years after using that stuff... seems that it got really dirty after all that time. From what I saw while they were recoating it, it hadn't chipped or chalked at all. That's saying a lot, given the sun here in Florida. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15400|15382|2007-11-07 23:30:24|Gordon Schnell|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|If you want schematics for the ICOM 720, I believe I have an electronic copy at work. I'll forward it to you. I may also have the manual...we'll see. I have a few projects on the "back burner" right now. I'm currently upgrading the differentials on my Jeep. Dana 44's , 4:10 gears and locker. I see Shaw (cable supplier) "tore down" my "boat building" website last week. Guess I will have to post elsewhere. I'll see if I can get time to pick a few and post them. Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Well good :) I'll try and find an manual online for it. Certainly > looks like a quality unit and from what I can see, "All Band" really > does mean "ALL BAND!!" heheheh > > There's another thing our boats will have in common Gord :) > > btw, you HAVE to get some pictures up on your engine and equipment > platform :) > > seer > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > > > Seer > > I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought > > after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with > > tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! > > Gord > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 15401|15401|2007-11-08 00:05:03|nuala-alexander436@ahyeaimk.com|don't wait it works|I am now to be referred to as Dr. Jenkins haha ;) Took me about a month to get fully certified, but after ringing these ppl 1 415 267-3940 they got me setup at an international uni and had me my BA in no time.| 15402|15394|2007-11-08 00:25:11|seeratlas|Re: Paint :)|-hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll have to look into that. I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a paint job :) hehehe thanks ben seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 03:17:13PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > What are you guys having success with for top coats painting over the > > epoxy barrier coats, both above and below waterline? Looking at the > > nuts prices of yard done two part poly spray jobs..(I think I got into > > the wrong business.. LOL.) It looks like I'll be doing the roller > > /tipping application :) My barrier coats are Devoe. > > I used what Devoe recommended - their Devthane topcoat. [shrug] Works > OK, no huge complaints - but I don't have any really great compliments > for the stuff, either. I'm guessing that you could use just about > anything: I've asked the same question as you're asking, and it seems > that once you've got enough epoxy down, your only concerns should be > chip resistance, wear resistance, and UV resistance. > > I've heard - not only here, but from a few other folks recently - lots > of good stuff about garage floor paint. The Suzuki dealership here in > town just re-did the painted sidewalk in front of their store, seven > years after using that stuff... seems that it got really dirty after all > that time. From what I saw while they were recoating it, it hadn't > chipped or chalked at all. That's saying a lot, given the sun here in > Florida. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15403|15403|2007-11-08 00:37:00|jim_both|Two good websites and a neat trick|Sandy and Gena have been building their Roberts 425 and documented every thing on one of the best personal boat-buiding websites on the internet: http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com A neat trick to search their extensive website is to use google by using a keyword and the website. If you wanted to know about their muffler, you would search for: muffler site:www.thebigsailboatproject.com Another site with a huge archive is the trawler and trawlering website which is good for all boat related research but sailing. You can search their website using the same trick. If you wanted to learn about underwater exhausts, you would do a google search for: underwater exhaust site:samurai.com There is a description about an underwater exhaust setup that is very interesting, but I don't know if a yacht would develope enough speed to make it work. There is a riser the exits the exhaust manifold and makes a 'u' turn straight back down to exit the boat underwater near the centerline directly next to the engine. There is a bypass exhaust out the transome or side of the boat for starts and idling. At speed the exhaust is sucked out of the engine underwater through a venturi effect that eliminates all back pressure and actually creates a positive or sucking pressure, which supposedly improves engine perforance and fuel consumption. Cheers, Jim| 15404|15394|2007-11-08 01:12:28|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Paint :)|I used waterbased acrilic roof paint on my hull as the top coat (tree coats with a roller) it is garrenteed for 10 years on a roof so I figured it might last at least a year or two on the hull. Well three tears later it is rock hard, has not chipped or peeled and no sign of fading. Cost was about US$75.00 for a gallon (imp.) Only downside is that it is only available in dark colours. Not a problem for me as my hull is black. Finish is satin, which I think is just right for a steel hull. Of cause the base is five coats of epoxy. Now if only I could find it in a light colour for the decks:-) Does garge floor paint come in light colours? Ps. Seer I have not forgotten but it is out a job to find Jerry's email address. It will be on my old outlook files and I do not use windows any more. The time period that I was talking about was 1997-1998. can confirm that the boat was called Cameleon and Jerry bought if from a Brit Lesely Rowntree in (I believe) Mexico. Will let you know when I have more info. seeratlas wrote: > -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor > stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll > have to look into that. > > I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and > I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a > paint job :) hehehe -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15405|15394|2007-11-08 01:46:50|Harry James|Re: Paint :)|The Awlgrip is a tough coat and does last a long time. HJ seeratlas wrote: > -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor > stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll > have to look into that. > > I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and > I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a > paint job :) hehehe > > thanks ben > > seer > > > | 15406|15394|2007-11-08 01:49:22|Harry James|Re: Paint :)|The two part paint I have on my shop concrete floor is white., pretty tough stuff alright. HJ Paul J. Thompson wrote: > I used waterbased acrilic roof paint on my hull as the top coat (tree > coats with a roller) it is garrenteed for 10 years on a roof so I > figured it might last at least a year or two on the hull. Well three > tears later it is rock hard, has not chipped or peeled and no sign of > fading. Cost was about US$75.00 for a gallon (imp.) > > Only downside is that it is only available in dark colours. Not a > problem for me as my hull is black. Finish is satin, which I think is > just right for a steel hull. Of cause the base is five coats of epoxy. > > Now if only I could find it in a light colour for the decks:-) Does > garge floor paint come in light colours? > > Ps. Seer I have not forgotten but it is out a job to find Jerry's email > address. It will be on my old outlook files and I do not use windows any > more. The time period that I was talking about was 1997-1998. can > confirm that the boat was called Cameleon and Jerry bought if from a > Brit Lesely Rowntree in (I believe) Mexico. Will let you know when I > have more info. > > seeratlas wrote: > >> -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor >> stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll >> have to look into that. >> >> I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and >> I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a >> paint job :) hehehe >> > > | 15407|15394|2007-11-08 01:59:19|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Paint :)|Yas, dat is so but it is too glossy and too pricey for the likes of me. :-) Harry James wrote: > The Awlgrip is a tough coat and does last a long time. > > HJ -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15408|15408|2007-11-08 06:58:05|Karina Selena|Martini vs United States Solicitor General in the Supreme Court|Martini and Martini files An Appeal in the United States Supreme Court against Human Rights Violations and False Removal Proceedings. Check out their video.... http://www.annettemartini.us| 15409|15394|2007-11-08 07:26:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Paint :)|On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 07:12:26PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > > Does > garge floor paint come in light colours? Yes. The stuff that the bike dealer was using was a light gray - and the display for this stuff at Home Depot showed a range of colors. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15410|15403|2007-11-08 08:03:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Two good websites and a neat trick|On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 05:36:59AM -0000, jim_both wrote: > Sandy and Gena have been building their Roberts 425 and documented > every thing on one of the best personal boat-buiding websites on the > internet: > > http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com The part that I found most amusing was this quote: "Pulling [steel] in against it's will seems so brutal!" That could cause some serious bogglement for any origami fan... :) > A neat trick to search their extensive website is to use google by > using a keyword and the website. If you wanted to know about their > muffler, you would search for: > > muffler site:www.thebigsailboatproject.com You can do this, and far more, for any site on the web. Take a look at Google's "Cheat Sheet", especially the "Advanced Operators" section: http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/cheatsheet.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15411|15382|2007-11-08 08:47:03|seeratlas|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|Thanks, would love the manual and schems. 44's a good way to go (both Gord and I rebuild 4x4's :) but I thought that jeep was *finished* :) hehehe. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > If you want schematics for the ICOM 720, I believe I have an electronic > copy at work. I'll forward it to you. I may also have the manual...we'll > see. I have a few projects on the "back burner" right now. I'm currently > upgrading the differentials on my Jeep. Dana 44's , 4:10 gears and > locker. I see Shaw (cable supplier) "tore down" my "boat building" > website last week. Guess I will have to post elsewhere. I'll see if I > can get time to pick a few and post them. > Gord > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Well good :) I'll try and find an manual online for it. Certainly > > looks like a quality unit and from what I can see, "All Band" really > > does mean "ALL BAND!!" heheheh > > > > There's another thing our boats will have in common Gord :) > > > > btw, you HAVE to get some pictures up on your engine and equipment > > platform :) > > > > seer > > > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Gordon Schnell > > wrote: > > > > > > Seer > > > I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought > > > after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with > > > tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15412|15394|2007-11-08 08:53:34|Alan H. Boucher|Re: Paint :)|What band acrylic roof paint did you use? ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Paint :) I used waterbased acrilic roof paint on my hull as the top coat (tree coats with a roller) it is garrenteed for 10 years on a roof so I figured it might last at least a year or two on the hull. Well three tears later it is rock hard, has not chipped or peeled and no sign of fading. Cost was about US$75.00 for a gallon (imp.) Only downside is that it is only available in dark colours. Not a problem for me as my hull is black. Finish is satin, which I think is just right for a steel hull. Of cause the base is five coats of epoxy. Now if only I could find it in a light colour for the decks:-) Does garge floor paint come in light colours? Ps. Seer I have not forgotten but it is out a job to find Jerry's email address. It will be on my old outlook files and I do not use windows any more. The time period that I was talking about was 1997-1998. can confirm that the boat was called Cameleon and Jerry bought if from a Brit Lesely Rowntree in (I believe) Mexico. Will let you know when I have more info. seeratlas wrote: > -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor > stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll > have to look into that. > > I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and > I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a > paint job :) hehehe -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15413|15389|2007-11-08 09:32:03|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Anyone a Ham?|Steve VA7SKM 'Silas Crosby', Here is the info about IRLP use. The given location for the Comox 2M repeater 146.91 is pretty close to your home in Courtney. Unless they have extra access codes, (See repeater owner) to use the IRLP link on the repeater, you just enter in the four digit IRLP Node number with your Touch-Tone pad. That links your repeater to the other IRLP node which is normally a repeater also. There is sometimes a 1 second delay on key up for the connection but otherwise just the same as talking over the repeater. When done, just enter 73 on the Touch-Tone pad to disconnect. (Some repeater owners have you enter a access code such as a * or D before entering the IRLP commands. See the Repeater owner if just the Node number doesn't work.) IRLP.net has a list of the nodes that are part of the system and you if you have Google Earth on your computer, you can download an add-on for Google Earth that shows the IRLP nodes on the map, with connections shown, in near real time. The repeater I normally listen too is 3231 (147.040 in Portland, OR.) If that connection is a bit noisy I then use the 3420 (440.450) UHF repeater in Portland. But try 3231 to get my attention... And Yes, "Opened Up" for use outside the Ham bands is the Same as "MARS" mods. For use of Ham gear outside the Ham bands, it is often done for the MARS (Military Amateur Radio System) and is often listed as MARS modification. Another way to search for Info. (Yes, I do use a lot of Jargon, but I'll try to keep it understandable) Steve, Thank you very much for sharing the Video of the Day on the Water of your boat. With the interesting music and obvious joy everyone was having sailing, it is a Great Sailing Video. _Re: Anyone a Ham? _ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15395;_ylc=X3oDMTJydjJrc2tqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUw ODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE1Mzk1BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ1MjA3NDA-) Posted by: "silascrosby" _silascrosby@... _ (mailto:silascrosby@...?Subject= Re:%20Anyone%20a%20Ham?) _silascrosby _ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/silascrosby) Wed Nov 7, 2007 9:32 am (PST) -Tom (KA0TP). on my boat I have an Icom V8000 2M radio which I use on the local repeaters and would be interested in making some more distant contacts via IRLP if you can give me some more info on how to do that. I am in Courtenay, Vancouver Island. It also serves as a backup for my marine VHF. I am about to get an Icom 718 as a 'basic' HF radio and will couple it with an SGC SG 230 tuner and a pactor II USB (Bluetooth) for e- mail. The 718 has been 'opened up'. Is that the same as the 'Mars mods' ? Steve VA7SKM 'Silas Crosby' ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15414|15403|2007-11-08 10:08:51|seeratlas|Re: Two good websites and a neat trick|Thanks for the sites:) and the google trick. Brian on the Metal Boat Society site had described just such an underwater exhaust for mega buck boats :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Sandy and Gena have been building their Roberts 425 and documented > every thing on one of the best personal boat-buiding websites on the > internet: > > http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com > > A neat trick to search their extensive website is to use google by > using a keyword and the website. If you wanted to know about their > muffler, you would search for: > > muffler site:www.thebigsailboatproject.com > > Another site with a huge archive is the trawler and trawlering > website which is good for all boat related research but sailing. > > You can search their website using the same trick. If you wanted to > learn about underwater exhausts, you would do a google search for: > > underwater exhaust site:samurai.com > > There is a description about an underwater exhaust setup that is very > interesting, but I don't know if a yacht would develope enough speed > to make it work. There is a riser the exits the exhaust manifold and > makes a 'u' turn straight back down to exit the boat underwater near > the centerline directly next to the engine. There is a bypass > exhaust out the transome or side of the boat for starts and idling. > At speed the exhaust is sucked out of the engine underwater > through a venturi effect that eliminates all back pressure and > actually creates a positive or sucking pressure, which supposedly > improves engine perforance and fuel consumption. > Cheers, Jim > | 15415|15389|2007-11-08 10:15:03|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Anyone a Ham?|Sorry Ray, I sometimes do the jargon without thinking about the audience. HF is the Short wave Bands which are used for long range broadcasts as well as long distance communication by boaters. Short for High Frequency. 3 Mhz to 30 Mhz. in frequency. There are Amateur Bands throughout and also some Marine bands. Most Ham (Amateur) radio equipment can be made to work on the Marine HF bands. (There are some good Ham HF nets to keep track of and help boaters crossing the pacific and elsewhere. Often help is more available there than on the Marine HF bands.) SSB is a Voice mode of transmitting which is the main method used on HF for Voice and can be used elsewhere. It is great for weak signal work, but tends to make the voices sound funny if you are not tuned in right. CW stands for Continuous Wave which is what they call the radio signal that is switched on and off for Morse Code. Morse code takes practice to learn, but is very good at being heard when there is very weak signals and high noise. It is still used by many Hams, from ages 7 to 107. Marine VHF (Very High Frequency) radios use FM voice transmissions which is clear when you have a strong signal but not as good for weak signal work. VHF frequencies (30 Mhz to 300 Mhz) are usually shorter ranged and with the FM mode, you are limited in range. (Line of Sight) Marine VHF radios are about 150 Mhz to 160 Mhz in frequency Ham VHF is 50 Mhz to 54 Mhz and 144 Mhz to 148 Mhz and the Ham radios can often be used on the Marine frequencies for Emergencies. It is not considered legal to use it normally for Marine use. (They want to sell more equipment? ) So it came down to that Seer got a great set of older radios which he can have a lot of fun with on the Ham bands and the HF radio can be used on the Marine HF frequencies also. Some of the other Radio models I mentioned are some of the newer Do-It-All radios which pack the functions of both of his radios and more into one unit. Of course they cost more... And all this is probably a LOT more than you wanted to know.... I like it as it is a Hobby as I can do with many of my other hobbies. Just email me direct if there is something else. I am not a know-it-all, but I usually know where to ask if I don't know it... Tom Popp - KA0TP _tdpopp@..._ (mailto:tdpopp@...) or _ka0tp@..._ (mailto:ka0tp@...) _Re: Anyone a Ham? _ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/15391;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNGZlNTNzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTUw ODcyBG1zZ0lkAzE1MzkxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTQ1MjA3NDA-) Posted by: "Ray" _ray.kimbro@... _ (mailto:ray.kimbro@...?Subject= Re:%20Anyone%20a%20Ham?) _raykimbro _ (http://profiles.yahoo.com/raykimbro) Wed Nov 7, 2007 6:06 am (PST) Please excuse the top-posting, but, - could you repeat this w/a non HAM translation? Sounds like some good info, but, damned if *I* know what you're talkin' about! Thanks! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15416|15394|2007-11-08 10:16:12|seeratlas|Re: Paint :)|Thanks for the info Paul. I found out a bit about the boat from the English side, turns out it was the Gallant rig designers original boat. I'm in communication with several people who sailed on it when Jack Manners-Spencer owned it. He sold it to someone who took it to the "new world" :) so...being that its reportedly a ferro boat, should last a long time :) Are you saying its still called Cameleon? and was it Fort Meyers you remember Jerry taking it to? Also, don't remember if I posted it, but I've located the original owner of my boat, who is also in Florida and had some good converstaions with him. I also think a satin finish is good for the hull and I'm planning on going either black or that hard to tell blue/black for the hull. Yes, garage floor paint comes in light colors to enhance and reflect the indoor lighting when you're working under something. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I used waterbased acrilic roof paint on my hull as the top coat (tree > coats with a roller) it is garrenteed for 10 years on a roof so I > figured it might last at least a year or two on the hull. Well three > tears later it is rock hard, has not chipped or peeled and no sign of > fading. Cost was about US$75.00 for a gallon (imp.) > > Only downside is that it is only available in dark colours. Not a > problem for me as my hull is black. Finish is satin, which I think is > just right for a steel hull. Of cause the base is five coats of epoxy. > > Now if only I could find it in a light colour for the decks:-) Does > garge floor paint come in light colours? > > Ps. Seer I have not forgotten but it is out a job to find Jerry's email > address. It will be on my old outlook files and I do not use windows any > more. The time period that I was talking about was 1997-1998. can > confirm that the boat was called Cameleon and Jerry bought if from a > Brit Lesely Rowntree in (I believe) Mexico. Will let you know when I > have more info. > > seeratlas wrote: > > -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor > > stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll > > have to look into that. > > > > I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and > > I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a > > paint job :) hehehe > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 15417|15394|2007-11-08 10:17:29|seeratlas|Re: Paint :)|Yeah, but expensive as all get out. I'm told the imron is just as good and much less price. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > The Awlgrip is a tough coat and does last a long time. > > HJ > > seeratlas wrote: > > -hmmm That sounds like a very interesting idea. That garage floor > > stuff does seem to last forever, even under the weight of a car. I'll > > have to look into that. > > > > I have no need or interest in the mirror glass awlgrip type stuff and > > I can think of a hell of a lot better ways to spend 10g than on a > > paint job :) hehehe > > > > thanks ben > > > > seer > > > > > > > | 15418|104|2007-11-08 11:48:42|SHANE ROTHWELL|Paint|Paul, You mentioned you used roof paint under the water line. sounds like a cheap workable solution. You asked about light colored garage floor paint. General Paint has "Porch & Floor" in a light blue standard color. wears really well. it's about C$25 per "gallon". In english That's 3.8 litres. Shane Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 15419|15389|2007-11-08 12:39:47|Ray|Re: Anyone a Ham?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > > Sorry Ray, I sometimes do the jargon without thinking about the audience. > Thanks a BUNCH for taking the time to come up w/such an appropriate reply. You've indeed given me enough info to whet my appetite, and I'll be digging in a to learn a bit more. Thanks again! Ray| 15420|15382|2007-11-08 16:50:24|mark hamill|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|Seer: I am not an official Ham yet, but I found a site that may allow you to contact a local clubs. http://www.hamdepot.com/ Mark H ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anyone out there a Ham? Well good :) I'll try and find an manual online for it. Certainly looks like a quality unit and from what I can see, "All Band" really does mean "ALL BAND!!" heheheh There's another thing our boats will have in common Gord :) btw, you HAVE to get some pictures up on your engine and equipment platform :) seer In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Seer > I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought > after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with > tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! > Gord > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > seer > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15421|15382|2007-11-08 16:55:01|seeratlas|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|heheh, :) seems like jeez was it really that long ago? wow...you c I *used* to be a ham...may still be :) but I've sure forgotten everything I ever knew LOL. Maybe I'll get lucky and find its like the old bicycle thing, once you've learned it, it comes back fast :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mark hamill wrote: > > Seer: > I am not an official Ham yet, but I found a site that may allow you to contact a local clubs. http://www.hamdepot.com/ > Mark H > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anyone out there a Ham? > > > Well good :) I'll try and find an manual online for it. Certainly > looks like a quality unit and from what I can see, "All Band" really > does mean "ALL BAND!!" heheheh > > There's another thing our boats will have in common Gord :) > > btw, you HAVE to get some pictures up on your engine and equipment > platform :) > > seer > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > > Seer > > I don't know a lot about the Kenwood, but the ICOM 720 is highly sought > > after. It's and excellent radio. I just picked up a unit complete with > > tuner and back-stay antenna. Sweet!! > > Gord > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15422|15422|2007-11-08 19:42:07|seeratlas|Excellent Free Cruising info|http://www.cruiser.co.za/faq1.asp just all round good stuff. seer| 15423|15382|2007-11-08 19:42:29|Gordon Schnell|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|Seer Send me a "personal email address and I'll forward the schematics for the Icom 720. The file is toooo large to forward thru Origami site Gord seer atlas wrote: > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > seer > > | 15424|15382|2007-11-08 19:47:01|seeratlas|Re: Anyone out there a Ham?|You should have it already gord from the pics we been sending on the boats I was looking at :) but I'll send you another note now. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Seer > Send me a "personal email address and I'll forward the schematics for > the Icom 720. The file is toooo large to forward thru Origami site > Gord > > > > seer atlas wrote: > > > > Got some questions. Got a like new Kenwood TS700A, and an apparently > > never used Icom 720A. Look like both are transceivers. Any reason I > > can't use one or both of them on the boat? > > > > seer > > > > > | 15425|15389|2007-11-08 20:53:39|silascrosby|Re: Anyone a Ham?|Tom, Thanks for the IRLP info. I'll give that a try this Sunday or Monday when I get to the boat. The credit for the Silas Crosby vid on Youtube goes completely to Alex Christie , our moderator and origamiboat construction and sailing videographer. Steve| 15426|15422|2007-11-08 21:53:10|seeratlas|Re: Excellent Free Cruising info|jeez,,, check out her entry under pharmaceuticals and polarity... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://www.cruiser.co.za/faq1.asp > > just all round good stuff. > > seer > | 15427|15389|2007-11-08 23:33:38|seeratlas|Ham-hijack! Silas Crosby Vid :)|I was really impressed with the stability of your boat in that vid. She looked really *locked in* and the lack of disturbed water at the stern indicated she was VERY happy at that angle of heel. A whole lot of expensive production boats do a lot worse. seer PS, you ever get that silly grin off of Alex? LOL :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Tom, Thanks for the IRLP info. I'll give that a try this Sunday or > Monday when I get to the boat. > The credit for the Silas Crosby vid on Youtube goes completely to > Alex Christie , our moderator and origamiboat construction and sailing > videographer. Steve > | 15428|15394|2007-11-09 15:26:33|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Paint :)|British Pants - 4 Seasons Exterior - 10 year guarantee against blistering, peeling and flaking. Can says it is 100% water based acrylic. Goes on great with a 5mm mohair roller. touch dry in 30 minutes. overcoat in 2 hours. Alan H. Boucher wrote: > What band acrylic roof paint did you use? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15429|15394|2007-11-09 15:57:47|Paul J. Thompson|Info on Seers boat - was Paint|Seer, the boat was brought out to the Caribbean by Brits, Chris & Lesely Rowntree. They sold it to Jerry (am trying to find his surname) a Canadian around 1996/97. The boat is Cameleon, is indeed Jacks original boat and is indeed ferrocement boat. Quite nicely finished but with an interior that is the most uncomfortable that I have ever come across. Every dimension seemed to have been carefully chosen to cause maxim discomfort. Jerry used to leave the boat in Fort Meyers and go home to Canada for the summer. So as of when I last heard from Jerry (2000 I think) the boat was still in Florida. I am now in Auckland, New Zeeland and have not had any direct contact with Jerry since. seeratlas wrote: > Thanks for the info Paul. I found out a bit about the boat from the > English side, turns out it was the Gallant rig designers original > boat. I'm in communication with several people who sailed on it when > Jack Manners-Spencer owned it. He sold it to someone who took it to > the "new world" :) so...being that its reportedly a ferro boat, should > last a long time :) Are you saying its still called Cameleon? and was > it Fort Meyers you remember Jerry taking it to? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15430|15321|2007-11-09 17:59:48|brentswain38|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Avoid bubbles or prop wash going over your depth sounder transducer.You need a noisy check valve on you runderwater exhuast. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > I assume I want to make sure that the bubble flow isn't going to go > back and cavitate the prop :) any other suggestions for 'gotchas' to > avoid? I need to get this planned out this week :) > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like hell. > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid point, > > to prevent drumming. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who has > > run a > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry exhaust > > from > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of the > > boat. > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising Sailor > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking for > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the exhaust > > thru a > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless standpipe that > > is > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown diameter > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction around the > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and looking > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed that > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably wise to > > put > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe to > > prevent > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the standpipe > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would be > > *bad* > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe would > > be a > > > good idea too. > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out of a > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to hitting > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler and help > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils from the > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) hehehe. > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it could > > be > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of weeks so > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 15431|15321|2007-11-09 18:02:24|brentswain38|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|I'v e seen them a couple of feet down with no problem. A diesel Mechanic who did some research concluded 3 ft as maximum. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Brent. > Any ideas what the maximum depth below the water line for the exhaust > outlet could be before back pressure became a problem. > Or, what is the maximum you have experience of. > > later pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Recessing the outlet would be a good idea. You could weld in a > couple > > of flush SS acorn nuts at the leading edge , to take a couple of > > 3/8th inch flathead ss bolts with ss washers to hold the flap. The > > washers shoud be just big enough to not be able to make it thru the > > bolt heads.Drilling a 45 degre bevel on one side of the washer > should > > get them close to flush. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent, I have 4" I beams for frames in the engine room so > I > > can > > > plan on sending out close to that. might help to suck the heat > out > > of > > > it and spread it around a bit too :) As for the flap, how did you > > > propose to hook that up? should I resess the opening a bit so the > > flap > > > would lay partially within the opening? and how would you suggest > I > > > affix the leading edge to the hull? > > > > > > thanx btw :) > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't run it out in the middle of a plate. It will drum like > > hell. > > > > Best run it out near a chine , engine web or other very solid > > point, > > > > to prevent drumming. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Especially to Brent, but also to Michael and anyone else who > > has > > > > run a > > > > > dry exhaust... > > > > > > > > > > I've gone back and read the old posts on running the dry > > exhaust > > > > from > > > > > the main (and, in my case the genset too) out the bottom of > the > > > > boat. > > > > > I've also run thru the Metal Boat Society forums, Cruising > > Sailor > > > > > something or other, and one other one I forget now :) looking > > for > > > > > details on the dry exhaust setup. > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, what I want to do is run the > exhaust > > > > thru a > > > > > flexible metal coupling up to the top of a stainless > standpipe > > that > > > > is > > > > > welded at the hull into a stainless plate insert of unknown > > diameter > > > > > welded into the hull plate to prevent paint destruction > around > > the > > > > > underwater exit.( 85hp naturally aspirated diesel main, and > > looking > > > > > like a 12hp two cyclinder kubota for the genset). I noticed > > that > > > > > Brent had opined on one of the forums that it was probably > wise > > to > > > > put > > > > > an exit only flap valve made of tire tread on the exit pipe > to > > > > prevent > > > > > water pressure from a wave surge from riding up above the > > standpipe > > > > > and pouring back down into the exhaust manifold..which would > be > > > > *bad* > > > > > :) For similar reasons, an anti-siphon valve at top of pipe > > would > > > > be a > > > > > good idea too. > > > > > > > > > > Still toying with Brent's idea of rigging up a still made out > > of a > > > > > stainless pony keg thru which the exhaust would run prior to > > hitting > > > > > the standpipe. At the very least it would act as a muffler > and > > help > > > > > cool the exhaust :) I suppose I could also run a few coils > from > > the > > > > > water heater thru it and pick up some btu's that way too :) > > hehehe. > > > > > Might leave that idea for later and just figure out where it > > could > > > > be > > > > > inserted into pipes for now. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I've got to work this all out in the next couple of > > weeks so > > > > > any advice is appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15432|10771|2007-11-09 18:04:32|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 progress|The 26 takes a Soling mainsail which are very common used. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > That is really nice craftsmanship, on a nice little 'ship'. Looks > seaworthy as hell to me. What sail area did you decide upon and what > do you figure she'll weigh in the water ready to head out? > > seer > > Oh, is there a muffler on that exhaust? Atomics aren't really all that > loud, but unmuffled exhaust can really wear you down if you have to > run it for any substantial period of time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Uploaded a few pictures of my progress. Atomic 4 is in and lined > up, exhaust, and skeg water cooling hooked up and tested, need to > finish up the linkage and fuel tank. made solid engine mounts out of > stainless, sloted bolt holes on mill and cut the threads on lathe and > I can say this machining stainless is slow and hard on tools. > > Cabin sole braces are in and made up a pattern out of old plywood > and bolted it in, ended up with 5' 11-1/2" headroom and thats to the > bottom of the 1" cabin stringer. I was all gung ho to paint inside but > I have a lot of bulkhead tabs and such to weld in, so I am going to > get the interior roughed in first whitch bring up a question, What > thickness of plywood is strong enough? I'm thinkin 1/2" AC DF but not > sure if 3/4" would be better for bulkheads. > > Plywood sure aint cheap anymore, I was quoted $26 a sheet for 1/2" > AC but it does look like good stuff. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15433|733|2007-11-09 18:07:56|brentswain38|Re: Brent's book|Can't say exactly what the duty cycle is, just give it lots of cooling time with the field shut off. I put the negative diodes in the side of my aluminium cockpit box, with a coat of epoxy tar,and the positive ones in a 9 inch by 14 inch piece of 3/16th aluminium plate , on one end. The idea was to put the other end in a bucket of water to cool it, but it doesn't even get warm. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > What kind of duty cycle are you running? and how did you ultimately > decide to mount the external diode pack? > > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > It works for a year or so. The duty cycle is not 100% as the field > > windings get hot and eventually burn ,if you don' t switch off the > > field and let it cool often. There is room for heavier windings in the > > field. I plan to give it a try with a burned out one soon.I just have > > to figure out how heavy I can go with the wire and still get the same > > number of turns in the space available.. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, did you perfect the small engine driven alternator welder? Is > > that the welder update in your book? I may have to buy another book > > from you, if so. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15434|15321|2007-11-09 18:14:33|polaris041|Re: Planning my dry exhaust setups, need some advice.|Brent; could you explain, "you need a noisy check valve on your underwater exhaust", please. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Avoid bubbles or prop wash going over your depth sounder > transducer.You need a noisy check valve on you runderwater exhuast. > Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, .| 15435|15367|2007-11-09 18:14:40|brentswain38|Re: Laugh it up :)|Simple solution. Start low tech , add gizmos one at a time , only as cruising funds surplus to waht you need to stay ou there are attained, never ad another gizmo until you have the last one fully worked out and all the bugs ironed out, over a long period of time. Maeantime just go with what you've got and what you can afford. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I must go down to the sea again, in a modern high-tech boat, > And all I ask is electric, for comfort while afloat, > And alternators, and solar panels, and generators going, > And deep cycle batteries with many amperes flowing. > > I must go down to the sea again, to the autopilot's ways, > And all I ask is a GPS, and a radar, and displays, > And a cell phone, and a weatherfax, and a shortwave radio, > And compact disks, computer games and TV videos. > > I must go down to the sea again, with a freezer full of steaks, > And all I ask is a microwave, and a blender for milkshakes, > And a watermaker, air-conditioner, hot water in the sink, > And e-mail and a VHF to see what my buddies think. > > I must go down to the sea again, with power-furling sails, > And chart displays of all the seas, and a bullhorn for loud hails, > And motors pulling anchor chains, and push-button sheets, > And programs which take full charge of tacking during beats. > > I must go down to the sea again, and not leave friends behind, > And so they never get seasick we'll use the web online, > And all I ask is an Internet with satellites over me, > And beaming all the data up, my friends sail virtually. > > I must go down to the sea again, record the humpback whales, > Compute until I decipher their language and their tales, > And learn to sing in harmony, converse beneath the waves, > And befriend the gentle giants as my synthesizer plays. > > I must go down to the sea again, with RAM in gigabytes, > and teraflops of processing for hobbies that I like, > And software suiting all my wants, seated at my console > And pushing on the buttons which give me complete control. > > I must go down to the sea again, my concept seems quite sound, > But when I simulate this boat, some problems I have found. > The cost is astronomical, repairs will never stop, > Instead of going sailing, I'll be shackled to the dock. > > I must go down to the sea again, how can I get away? > Must I be locked in low-tech boats until my dying day? > Is there no cure for my complaint, no technologic fix? > Oh, I fear this electric fever is a habit I can't kick. > > written by Brian Eiland > cat designer/builder > | 15436|15394|2007-11-09 18:27:32|seeratlas|Re: Info on Seers boat - was Paint|Ok, thanks Paul, I'll see if I can run him down :) Now you got me curious on the interior tho LOL. what was it that made it so uncomfortable? just wrong dimensions for settees etc.? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Seer, the boat was brought out to the Caribbean by Brits, Chris & Lesely > Rowntree. They sold it to Jerry (am trying to find his surname) a > Canadian around 1996/97. The boat is Cameleon, is indeed Jacks original > boat and is indeed ferrocement boat. Quite nicely finished but with an > interior that is the most uncomfortable that I have ever come across. > Every dimension seemed to have been carefully chosen to cause maxim > discomfort. Jerry used to leave the boat in Fort Meyers and go home to > Canada for the summer. So as of when I last heard from Jerry (2000 I > think) the boat was still in Florida. > > I am now in Auckland, New Zeeland and have not had any direct contact > with Jerry since. > > seeratlas wrote: > > Thanks for the info Paul. I found out a bit about the boat from the > > English side, turns out it was the Gallant rig designers original > > boat. I'm in communication with several people who sailed on it when > > Jack Manners-Spencer owned it. He sold it to someone who took it to > > the "new world" :) so...being that its reportedly a ferro boat, should > > last a long time :) Are you saying its still called Cameleon? and was > > it Fort Meyers you remember Jerry taking it to? > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 15437|15394|2007-11-09 18:43:24|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Info on Seers boat - was Paint|Oh the inside was built well enough, mostly good mahogany joinery all finished with varnish. Possibly the original owner was a very tall person. But for me at 5'8" the seats were to high dito for the work surfaces. yes just the dimensions did not work for me. I don't recall Jerry had any problems but he was somewhat bigger than I. seeratlas wrote: > Ok, thanks Paul, I'll see if I can run him down :) > Now you got me curious on the interior tho LOL. what was it that made > it so uncomfortable? just wrong dimensions for settees etc.? > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15438|15394|2007-11-09 19:04:04|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Paint :)|If it's like the stuff the firm of builders merchants I work for sells it's commonly available in a light grey,although the manufacturers do claim to do it in black and white as well.I'd thought of using it to paint a knockabout dinghy or the inside of an old 'Lysander' I'm restoring.The manufacturers claim that it breathes,so can be put on a damp substrate,but informed opinion at the counter was that this procedure should be treated with caution cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15439|15164|2007-11-09 20:03:01|Carl Volkwein|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|Brent, I had a "go-cart" when I was young, where the engine and drive wheels were hooked together by a single v-belt, that was tentioned by a lever that moved a pulley between the engine and the drive wheeles, that were both stationary as looked at by the frame, so the pulley was the only thing that moved. Would that be better than moving the pump ? carlvolkwein brentswain38 wrote: I know a guy who has his pump mounted on a bracket with a V belt on it. He just reaches thru the hatch and flicks a lever ,which tightens the belt by moving the pump over. He's been using it that way for decades. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch > operated? > > Regards, > > Ted > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15440|15248|2007-11-09 20:16:21|Carl Volkwein|Re: interesting crack|How do you feel about 7014? carlvolkwein Wesley Cox wrote: Not craters. Something like depressions. The slag sinks into the weld is a fairly accurate description. It makes the weld metal in the center of the weld thinner than nearer the edges of the weld or in places makes a crack, a space between the edges of the weld with no metal. I haven't tried other types of 6013, honestly. I'm not a fan of 6013 flux so I stick with 6010/11 and 7018 primarily. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack Wesley, When you say sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld, do you mean pinhole craters or shallow depressions or something else. I got shallow depressions using one type of 6013 but when I changed the type that went away. From memory it was a slow cooling type and the slag sunk into the weld. I was using Thyssen rods and they sell 6 or more different types of 6013. I have all but finished the welding now. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > This is why I personally quit using 6013 several years ago, except I do have some 5/64" 6013 that I use for 16 ga. and thinner steel that I can't practically reach with a TIG. I can weld about anything, but *consistently* welding with 6013 and not getting sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld alludes me. I know it needs a very short arc to work well, but it got to be such a PITA I quit using it altogether. Just my 2 cents. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > > > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15441|15441|2007-11-10 05:39:43|jonathanswef|Eighteen windows|Thanks for the advice from everyone. I haven't had a chance to get on with the windows though as I'm under a lot of customer pressure wanting their furniture made and delivered sooner than I was intending to do it. I have worn my new flame proof boiler suit though; albeit working outside in a bitterly cold wind fixing up the local church gate. I got it because my trousers and shirts have all these little holes in them from using 6011 rods... Jonathan.| 15442|15442|2007-11-10 09:33:31|Tom|BS 26 engine controls|Hello all The way things are going I have been loosing the ability to put in quater births , first the exhaust on port side now fuel tank on starboard and my engine controls are on the sides of cockpit in center, linkages would be in births. I think I will redo this. First run the exhaust streight back under cockpit and loop it up then down to exit with flex exhaust tube then move all engine controls under lazzerett hatch. That would allso give me a nice big air vent when running engine, over 2' wide clam shell vent,only drawback I can think of is you cant control engine from cabin but thats ok its not a pilot house version anyway and I can live with that . Still have to figure where to put fuel tank and fill, might be able to fit somthing under cockpit sole but it will be small and fill from the stern. The 26 is not that small but it aint that big eather and I need sleeping acomidations for at least 4, without quarter births there is not much room for the extra 6'6" births. Now I see why they say the interior takes a lot longer than the rest of the boat. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15443|15248|2007-11-10 12:19:36|Wesley Cox|Re: interesting crack|Never used it, so no opinion, sorry. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Volkwein To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack How do you feel about 7014? carlvolkwein Wesley Cox wrote: Not craters. Something like depressions. The slag sinks into the weld is a fairly accurate description. It makes the weld metal in the center of the weld thinner than nearer the edges of the weld or in places makes a crack, a space between the edges of the weld with no metal. I haven't tried other types of 6013, honestly. I'm not a fan of 6013 flux so I stick with 6010/11 and 7018 primarily. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack Wesley, When you say sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld, do you mean pinhole craters or shallow depressions or something else. I got shallow depressions using one type of 6013 but when I changed the type that went away. From memory it was a slow cooling type and the slag sunk into the weld. I was using Thyssen rods and they sell 6 or more different types of 6013. I have all but finished the welding now. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > This is why I personally quit using 6013 several years ago, except I do have some 5/64" 6013 that I use for 16 ga. and thinner steel that I can't practically reach with a TIG. I can weld about anything, but *consistently* welding with 6013 and not getting sporadic gaps down the middle of the weld alludes me. I know it needs a very short arc to work well, but it got to be such a PITA I quit using it altogether. Just my 2 cents. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting crack > > > Tom, > > The prop shaft is sched 80 mild steel and the rods 6013. It didn't > crack where the weld meets the prop shaft but in the middle of weld. I > think I made about three passes to close up the hole between the skeg > and the prop shaft. The prop shaft in the skeg hole wasn't an > impressive fit. Maybe too much weld. The rods I used to fix the crack > were from a new packet so shouldn't have been damp. I don't think the > original rods would have been damp as I usually buy a packet at a time > and they get used fairly quickly. I dry them in an oven if I think > they are a bit damp. I am building in a shed so they don't get rained > on. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 11/1/2007 6:01 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.26/1120 - Release Date: 11/9/2007 9:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15444|15403|2007-11-10 15:04:22|Harry James|Screw jacks|If you have tried to get your hands on screw jacks you know how expensive they can be. I believe Brownell jacks mfg on the East coast are the only ones made in the US about $90 a pop. On another list somebody suggested using scaffolding parts. Here is a link to some. http://www.scaffoldingdepot.com/screw.htm Knowing the propensity of this list for original thinking and scrounging, this probably isn't a new idea. HJ| 15445|15322|2007-11-10 18:39:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Ben, I understand what you are saying. I was once looking for a job and stopped in a shop. When I saw what they did I wasn't interested, but they were welding these huge aluminum assemblies and the welding was terrible. I started explaining to the shop foreman how he could tell that the welders were set up wrong. I gave my usual spiel about the things to look for. As I said it I could see his eyes light up because he could see every sign I said he should look for. His "pros' probably blew him off the next day, but if they followed my advice they would have reduced the welding cost by more than half, and done a much better job too. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] handholds on Aluminum PH > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 09:42:47PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> Ben, >> MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a >> number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, >> and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for >> adding >> rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than >> for >> TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. > > I *did* say "the pros here will disagree", didn't I? :) > > Gary, most of the aluminum welds I've seen, including those done by > people who supposedly knew what they were doing, were just plain BAD. > You'd laugh (or cringe) at those welds; anybody who knows what a good > weld is supposed to be would. If you work in an environment where > inspection is a regular thing, it's easy to forget that the average > welder is a guy with a buzzbox using hanger wire to "glue" his broken > hitch back on - and the greatest majority of welders out there are > closer to that average than to being a real professional. > > To give an example, my wife and I walked the temporary bypass bridge > that recently got thrown up across the Matanzas river, just north of > where I'm anchored; we had both just finished our accelerated welding > course, and wanted to see what "real" welding looked like. Out of every > 10 welds we saw, at least 9 would fail even a cursory visual inspection > (mostly, way too hot - and generally either moving way too fast or way > too slow.) I'd be willing to bet even money that a real inspection would > fail every one of them. Note that the city here didn't go with the low > bidder on this job; they're trying to restore a historical artifact (the > Bridge of Lions), so they spent a bunch of money hiring what they > thought was top quality. > > This is pretty much in line with my general experience of aluminum welds > I've seen. > > Incidentally, hanging off the side of the bridge and just past the > control booth, there's a set of traffic signals for the boats. Whoever > did the aluminum welding on _those_ was a real pro: you could see that > steady hand and good penetration right off. If I'd been wearing a hat, > I'd have taken it off. :) Next to it, all the rest of the welds looked > like kindergarteners scribbling with crayons. > > In short: it's not only possible to do good MIG work on aluminum, it's > not even that hard. The problem is that "not even that hard" is too hard > - or at least too much trouble - for most welders. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15446|15322|2007-11-10 18:47:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Brent, Tig is COMPLETELY reliable as to penetration, unlike Mig. That's because with Tig you have absolute control of the weld puddle. The only way you get a cold start on a Tig weld is because you are an unskilled operator. I used to make good pin money welding aluminum RV water heater tanks that had frozen and split. 100% weld penetration and I did dozens with never a leak. In fact the only way I could get the work was that I guaranteed no leaks. Tig is NOT slow. Welding with a Tig machine that is far too small for the job is slow. Since most stick welding machines are far too small for Tig weld one tends to think Tig welding is slow. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH Tig is as slow as a government refund ,and not all at reliable when it comes to penetration Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 09:42:47PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Ben, > > MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a > > number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, > > and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for adding > > rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than for > > TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. > > I *did* say "the pros here will disagree", didn't I? :) > > Gary, most of the aluminum welds I've seen, including those done by > people who supposedly knew what they were doing, were just plain BAD. > You'd laugh (or cringe) at those welds; anybody who knows what a good > weld is supposed to be would. If you work in an environment where > inspection is a regular thing, it's easy to forget that the average > welder is a guy with a buzzbox using hanger wire to "glue" his broken > hitch back on - and the greatest majority of welders out there are > closer to that average than to being a real professional. > > To give an example, my wife and I walked the temporary bypass bridge > that recently got thrown up across the Matanzas river, just north of > where I'm anchored; we had both just finished our accelerated welding > course, and wanted to see what "real" welding looked like. Out of every > 10 welds we saw, at least 9 would fail even a cursory visual inspection > (mostly, way too hot - and generally either moving way too fast or way > too slow.) I'd be willing to bet even money that a real inspection would > fail every one of them. Note that the city here didn't go with the low > bidder on this job; they're trying to restore a historical artifact (the > Bridge of Lions), so they spent a bunch of money hiring what they > thought was top quality. > > This is pretty much in line with my general experience of aluminum welds > I've seen. > > Incidentally, hanging off the side of the bridge and just past the > control booth, there's a set of traffic signals for the boats. Whoever > did the aluminum welding on _those_ was a real pro: you could see that > steady hand and good penetration right off. If I'd been wearing a hat, > I'd have taken it off. :) Next to it, all the rest of the welds looked > like kindergarteners scribbling with crayons. > > In short: it's not only possible to do good MIG work on aluminum, it's > not even that hard. The problem is that "not even that hard" is too hard > - or at least too much trouble - for most welders. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15447|15447|2007-11-10 19:50:13|mark hamill|39' Aluminum Sailboat For Sale in Seattle|Hi: Saw this listing on Craiglist--$22000 US. and gasp, choke, (I'm gettting misty eyed now) LESS in canadian funds. http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/boa/472157180.html MarkH| 15448|15322|2007-11-10 22:43:01|Aaron Williams|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|I have to agree with Gary about the tig. Experince and the proper equipment makes a hugh difference no matter how or what you want to weld. Aaron "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: Brent, Tig is COMPLETELY reliable as to penetration, unlike Mig. That's because with Tig you have absolute control of the weld puddle. The only way you get a cold start on a Tig weld is because you are an unskilled operator. I used to make good pin money welding aluminum RV water heater tanks that had frozen and split. 100% weld penetration and I did dozens with never a leak. In fact the only way I could get the work was that I guaranteed no leaks. Tig is NOT slow. Welding with a Tig machine that is far too small for the job is slow. Since most stick welding machines are far too small for Tig weld one tends to think Tig welding is slow. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH Tig is as slow as a government refund ,and not all at reliable when it comes to penetration Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 09:42:47PM -0400, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Ben, > > MIG on aluminum doesn't suck, it is the predominant method by far, for a > > number of reasons. You need the right equipment, and the right settings, > > and then it is very easy. Much easier than TIG. One advantage for adding > > rails to an existing boat is that the heat input would be far less than for > > TIG, so less potential for damage, warping etc. > > I *did* say "the pros here will disagree", didn't I? :) > > Gary, most of the aluminum welds I've seen, including those done by > people who supposedly knew what they were doing, were just plain BAD. > You'd laugh (or cringe) at those welds; anybody who knows what a good > weld is supposed to be would. If you work in an environment where > inspection is a regular thing, it's easy to forget that the average > welder is a guy with a buzzbox using hanger wire to "glue" his broken > hitch back on - and the greatest majority of welders out there are > closer to that average than to being a real professional. > > To give an example, my wife and I walked the temporary bypass bridge > that recently got thrown up across the Matanzas river, just north of > where I'm anchored; we had both just finished our accelerated welding > course, and wanted to see what "real" welding looked like. Out of every > 10 welds we saw, at least 9 would fail even a cursory visual inspection > (mostly, way too hot - and generally either moving way too fast or way > too slow.) I'd be willing to bet even money that a real inspection would > fail every one of them. Note that the city here didn't go with the low > bidder on this job; they're trying to restore a historical artifact (the > Bridge of Lions), so they spent a bunch of money hiring what they > thought was top quality. > > This is pretty much in line with my general experience of aluminum welds > I've seen. > > Incidentally, hanging off the side of the bridge and just past the > control booth, there's a set of traffic signals for the boats. Whoever > did the aluminum welding on _those_ was a real pro: you could see that > steady hand and good penetration right off. If I'd been wearing a hat, > I'd have taken it off. :) Next to it, all the rest of the welds looked > like kindergarteners scribbling with crayons. > > In short: it's not only possible to do good MIG work on aluminum, it's > not even that hard. The problem is that "not even that hard" is too hard > - or at least too much trouble - for most welders. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15449|15403|2007-11-11 00:15:18|Michael Casling|Re: Screw jacks|I just paid about $90- for a four foot length of 1 1/4 threaded rod. Grade 8, the grade 2 was cheaper. It is for the pads on my cradle. Cut it into four pieces. Just checked it was $92 but that included 13% taxes and I got eight nuts and eight washers. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry James To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Screw jacks If you have tried to get your hands on screw jacks you know how expensive they can be. I believe Brownell jacks mfg on the East coast are the only ones made in the US about $90 a pop. On another list somebody suggested using scaffolding parts. Here is a link to some. http://www.scaffoldingdepot.com/screw.htm Knowing the propensity of this list for original thinking and scrounging, this probably isn't a new idea. HJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15450|15322|2007-11-11 00:51:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 07:43:00PM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > I have to agree with Gary about the tig. Experince and the proper > equipment makes a hugh difference no matter how or what you want to > weld. TIG is definitely sweet stuff - I wish I had spent more time with it during the class, but it was either keep playing with that or get my cert with stick. Not that I need the cert for anything, or that I'll ever use it (they expire after a bit anyway, and I make too much money in my profession to even think about becoming a pro welder :), but watching the guys who were good with it was definitely an education. All the penetration you could ever want, beautiful, clean welds, essentially no sparks or slag, minimal cleaning... and all done in white cotton gloves. TIG welds are also the best-looking ones of all: if you're going to make jewelry, that's the one you need. :) It's a bit more complicated to learn - mostly, it requires more coordination and a steadier hand than either of the other two - and the equipment is *much* more expensive than either MIG or stick. I also think that in most cases, it's way slower than MIG and somewhat slower than stick. However, for someone who knows what they're doing, the total time for a job may well be shorter given a good, high-output TIG rig; by the time you're done welding/chipping/brushing and possibly going back over your stick weld, the TIG guy may well be ahead on inches - and miles ahead in precision (minimizes grinding) and neatness (ditto, plus saving time on cleanup.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15451|15403|2007-11-11 01:13:11|Harry James|Re: Screw jacks|These screw jacks and the Brownell ones have a much coarser and deeper thread. HJ Michael Casling wrote: > I just paid about $90- for a four foot length of 1 1/4 threaded rod. Grade 8, the grade 2 was cheaper. > It is for the pads on my cradle. Cut it into four pieces. > Just checked it was $92 but that included 13% taxes and I got eight nuts and eight washers. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Harry James > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 12:04 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Screw jacks > > > If you have tried to get your hands on screw jacks you know how > expensive they can be. I believe Brownell jacks mfg on the East coast > are the only ones made in the US about $90 a pop. On another list > somebody suggested using scaffolding parts. Here is a link to some. > > http://www.scaffoldingdepot.com/screw.htm > > Knowing the propensity of this list for original thinking and > scrounging, this probably isn't a new idea. > > HJ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 15452|15322|2007-11-11 01:52:55|Aaron Williams|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Stick is perfect for origami boat building get the right electrode AC/DC of choice thats available and build a boat. Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 07:43:00PM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > I have to agree with Gary about the tig. Experince and the proper > equipment makes a hugh difference no matter how or what you want to > weld. TIG is definitely sweet stuff - I wish I had spent more time with it during the class, but it was either keep playing with that or get my cert with stick. Not that I need the cert for anything, or that I'll ever use it (they expire after a bit anyway, and I make too much money in my profession to even think about becoming a pro welder :), but watching the guys who were good with it was definitely an education. All the penetration you could ever want, beautiful, clean welds, essentially no sparks or slag, minimal cleaning... and all done in white cotton gloves. TIG welds are also the best-looking ones of all: if you're going to make jewelry, that's the one you need. :) It's a bit more complicated to learn - mostly, it requires more coordination and a steadier hand than either of the other two - and the equipment is *much* more expensive than either MIG or stick. I also think that in most cases, it's way slower than MIG and somewhat slower than stick. However, for someone who knows what they're doing, the total time for a job may well be shorter given a good, high-output TIG rig; by the time you're done welding/chipping/brushing and possibly going back over your stick weld, the TIG guy may well be ahead on inches - and miles ahead in precision (minimizes grinding) and neatness (ditto, plus saving time on cleanup.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15453|15322|2007-11-11 03:12:13|Wesley Cox|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it look better than bird poop? ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH Stick is perfect for origami boat building get the right electrode AC/DC of choice thats available and build a boat. Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 07:43:00PM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > I have to agree with Gary about the tig. Experince and the proper > equipment makes a hugh difference no matter how or what you want to > weld. Recent Activity a.. 9New Members b.. 3New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.26/1120 - Release Date: 11/9/2007 9:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15454|15454|2007-11-11 08:06:14|bty568635|Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for (eventually)long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an offshore passage yet) Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or owning a boat here in UK. I realise there are other forums I could ask this on, but you chaps seem to have your 'eyes on the ball' more than a lot of others.| 15455|15322|2007-11-11 09:01:23|James Pronk|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|I have tried to stick weld aluminum. The rod stuck to the aluminum then melted, looked just like bird poop. I then tried gas welding with the aluminm rod, that worked but it was like trying to push warm butter up a wild cats #ss with hot knitting needle! I have special glasses that let you see when the aluminum is at the right heat(pre bird poopish). I can't recall what they are called but I will have a look when I'm back at my shop. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it look better than bird poop? | 15456|15322|2007-11-11 09:35:36|Aaron Williams|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Thats right we started out with the aluminum PH and handrails. I would not ever use ALUMINUN STICK welding on any boat hull or any structural member handrail, mast. It works for something like a alternator bracket and I would never trust that for the long term. I have tried several brands of aluminum stick rod and most worked better as brazing rod with flux but J-B weld works in a pinch, Nasty stuff to clean up so one can get a good aluminum repair done. Wesley Cox wrote: I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it look better than bird poop? ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH Stick is perfect for origami boat building get the right electrode AC/DC of choice thats available and build a boat. Ben Okopnik wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 07:43:00PM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > I have to agree with Gary about the tig. Experince and the proper > equipment makes a hugh difference no matter how or what you want to > weld. Recent Activity a.. 9New Members b.. 3New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. . ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.26/1120 - Release Date: 11/9/2007 9:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15457|15322|2007-11-11 09:59:06|Tom|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|I use aluminum stick rod every once in a while, it works ok down flat but out of posittion not so good. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pronk" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH >I have tried to stick weld aluminum. The rod stuck to the aluminum then > melted, looked just like bird poop. > I then tried gas welding with the aluminm rod, that worked but it was > like trying to push warm butter up a wild cats #ss with hot knitting > needle! > I have special glasses that let you see when the aluminum is at the > right heat(pre bird poopish). I can't recall what they are called but I > will have a look when I'm back at my shop. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: >> >> I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original > question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way > for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, > though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it > look better than bird poop? > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15458|15322|2007-11-11 10:08:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 10:52:54PM -0800, Aaron Williams wrote: > Stick is perfect for origami boat building get the right electrode > AC/DC of choice thats available and build a boat. I agree. As I've said, good TIG requires very expensive equipment and some serious skill to do really well - which isn't the "origami way". :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15459|15322|2007-11-11 10:10:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 02:12:49AM -0600, Wesley Cox wrote: > I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original > question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way > for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, > though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it > look better than bird poop? Nope. Bird poop has _always_ looked better than my aluminum stick welds. :) All you can say about Al stick welding is that it can be made to work OK. As to looking good... better get those grinding skills in order. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15460|15322|2007-11-11 10:18:09|Ben Okopnik|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 06:39:29PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > I understand what you are saying. I was once looking for a job and stopped > in a shop. When I saw what they did I wasn't interested, but they were > welding these huge aluminum assemblies and the welding was terrible. I > started explaining to the shop foreman how he could tell that the welders > were set up wrong. I gave my usual spiel about the things to look for. As > I said it I could see his eyes light up because he could see every sign I > said he should look for. His "pros' probably blew him off the next day, but > if they followed my advice they would have reduced the welding cost by more > than half, and done a much better job too. I've often said that it's the last 2% of the job that make 98% of the difference... and most jobs only get done to the 98% level. This is why you hear people saying to pros "you make it look so easy!": they're not doing significantly more work than Joe Average... they're only doing a tiny amount more, but that's the amount that counts. Gary, I'd love to learn those extra bits about welding from you some day. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15461|15454|2007-11-11 14:18:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|There is almost no market in the Pacific islands I know of but how about New Zealand? NZ is only a week or two from the islands and there are lots of boats to chose from. For used boats in NZ check out www.trademe.co.nz. The market seems to be falling, however, since the credit crunch so you may have a hard time selling it again. I think this will probably be true everywhere in the world. You may need to get Cat 1 (safety) approval for a NZ boat which can be expensive if you need to buy a lot of gear. The upside though, is it adds to the resale value of the boat once you have it. If you don't want to do any offshore and just want to sail around some islands (i.e. NZ weather can be crap), try going to Malaysia or Thailand. It's great cruising and boats can be bought and sold locally there. I had a wonderful and incredibly easy sail up from Langkawi to the northern edge Thailand and then across to India while crewing on a friend's boat. If you are looking for experience, I would really recommend crewing on boats first. It is easier than you think and you don't have the hassle of getting a boat ready in a short time frame. You need to place yourself where the boats are during the cruising season and follow the pack. Many boats are looking for crews as they jump around the pacific. You have to be in the right place at the right time and show you are keen, reliable and available but it can be done. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: bty568635 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:06:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for (eventually) long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an offshore passage yet) Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or owning a boat here in UK. I realise there are other forums I could ask this on, but you chaps seem to have your 'eyes on the ball' more than a lot of others. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15462|15322|2007-11-11 14:33:01|Wesley Cox|Re: handholds on Aluminum PH|Thanks for the responses. I'll my own feedback. I can make aluminum stick welding work, when I can see through the immense cloud of smoke, but it looks horrible and isn't reliable. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH I use aluminum stick rod every once in a while, it works ok down flat but out of posittion not so good. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Pronk" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: handholds on Aluminum PH >I have tried to stick weld aluminum. The rod stuck to the aluminum then > melted, looked just like bird poop. > I then tried gas welding with the aluminm rod, that worked but it was > like trying to push warm butter up a wild cats #ss with hot knitting > needle! > I have special glasses that let you see when the aluminum is at the > right heat(pre bird poopish). I can't recall what they are called but I > will have a look when I'm back at my shop. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: >> >> I think you are referring to stick welding steel. The original > question regarded aluminum. I've already stated I'm TIG all the way > for aluminum or great finesse in steel. While we're on the topic, > though, I'm curious, has anyone ever stick welded aluminum and had it > look better than bird poop? > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15463|15454|2007-11-11 15:01:39|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|New Zealand is not the place for cheap boats or cheap anything. Access to and from the Pacific Islands, is not for newbies or the faint of heart. You can get a real hiding if you are not careful and sometimes even if you are! Paul Wilson wrote: > There is almost no market in the Pacific islands I know of but how about New Zealand? NZ is only a week or two from the islands and there are lots of boats to chose from. For used boats in NZ check out www.trademe.co.nz. The market seems to be falling, however, since the credit crunch so you may have a hard time selling it again. I think this will probably be true everywhere in the world. You may need to get Cat 1 (safety) approval for a NZ boat which can be expensive if you need to buy a lot of gear. The upside though, is it adds to the resale value of the boat once you have it. > > If you don't want to do any offshore and just want to sail around some islands (i.e. NZ weather can be crap), try going to Malaysia or Thailand. It's great cruising and boats can be bought and sold locally there. I had a wonderful and incredibly easy sail up from Langkawi to the northern edge Thailand and then across to India while crewing on a friend's boat. > > If you are looking for experience, I would really recommend crewing on boats first. It is easier than you think and you don't have the hassle of getting a boat ready in a short time frame. You need to place yourself where the boats are during the cruising season and follow the pack. Many boats are looking for crews as they jump around the pacific. You have to be in the right place at the right time and show you are keen, reliable and available but it can be done. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: bty568635 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:06:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? > > Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the > breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly > off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... > > I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for > (eventually) long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat > and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak > dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at > 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, > and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat > over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an > offshore passage yet) > > Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick > up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, > say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go > home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or > owning a boat here in UK. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15464|15454|2007-11-11 15:03:19|Alex Christie|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|Some of the boats listed here at Maz Marine in Mazatlan, Mexico seem value-priced http://www.mazmarine.com/ and one could voyage from there then sell again on return. I think the couple that runs the brokerage is from the USA. They once had a BS 31 for sale through there at a very good price too. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: bty568635 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 5:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for (eventually)long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an offshore passage yet) Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or owning a boat here in UK. I realise there are other forums I could ask this on, but you chaps seem to have your 'eyes on the ball' more than a lot of others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 3:47 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15465|15465|2007-11-11 16:47:23|dalebaumann|BS 26 Hull without sails|This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year and a half. What I was wondering if you could use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the midwest of U.S.| 15466|15171|2007-11-11 16:48:13|Juan José Yaboada|Re: steel boat building|Hi seer: Treadmaster is an excellent product as well as a simillar one from Vetus. If you go this way, please read the following article before for very useful tips. http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19934&highlight=treadmaster Regards, Juan José seeratlas escribió: -I may take a shot at this too. Sent off for some samples and got an immediate reply and some installation tips from the guy handling this stuff. Seems like a good find so far. :) I'll let you know what the samples look like when they show up later this week. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I was going to use Treadmaster but this looks better. Treadmaster > needs to be epoxied down and recoated for uv damge. It eventually > edgelifts as can be seen on older Fisher motorsailors. > I wonder how Kiwigrip stands up in the sun on a metal boat. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > > In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and > the owners swear by it: > > > > http://www.kiwigrip.com/index.html > > > > It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to > use > > some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with > a > > little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a > flush > > steel deck in south florida :) > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my > > other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to > > have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great > circle > > trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the > > boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a > bit of > > springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when > sailing > > at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Carl Anderson > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great > difference > > > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > > > > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > > > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan > of > > > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years > > of use. > > > > > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything > mixed > > > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > > > > > Carl > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > , Alex Christie > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to > touch > > > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as > bare > > > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). > Wood on > > > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > > expansion > > > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to > absorb > > > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > > invite > > > > corrosion. > > > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using > granulated cork > > > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: > > 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > --------------------------------- ¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo! Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos en: http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15467|15465|2007-11-11 16:54:17|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Yes, but you'd want to detail it to take a rig to increase the resale value later. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" wrote: > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > midwest of U.S. > | 15468|15164|2007-11-11 16:59:40|brentswain38|Re: Hydraulic Anchoring.|The pumnp is small and almost as light as a pulley on its own bearings, easy to move, and has it's own bearings. No point in another pulley. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Brent, > > I had a "go-cart" when I was young, where the engine and drive wheels were > hooked together by a single v-belt, that was tentioned by a lever that moved a pulley between the engine and the drive wheeles, that were both stationary as looked at by the frame, so the pulley was the only thing that moved. > > Would that be better than moving the pump ? carlvolkwein > > brentswain38 wrote: I know a guy who has his pump mounted on a bracket with a V belt on it. > He just reaches thru the hatch and flicks a lever ,which tightens the > belt by moving the pump over. He's been using it that way for decades. > Brent > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > > > Do you have the hydraulic pump operating continuously or clutch > > operated? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15469|15465|2007-11-11 17:07:41|mark hamill|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow boats to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered with a Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have gone easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil Bolger designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" wrote: > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > midwest of U.S. > | 15470|15454|2007-11-11 17:07:45|Paul Wilson|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|Hah! I thought I might stir things up.....There are cheaper boats elsewhere but if you want to go to the South Pacific there are not a lot of options for a 6 month time frame. I know people have done it (newbies too!) so thought I should give it as an option. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 9:01:37 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? New Zealand is not the place for cheap boats or cheap anything. Access to and from the Pacific Islands, is not for newbies or the faint of heart. You can get a real hiding if you are not careful and sometimes even if you are! Paul Wilson wrote: > There is almost no market in the Pacific islands I know of but how about New Zealand? NZ is only a week or two from the islands and there are lots of boats to chose from. For used boats in NZ check out www.trademe. co.nz. The market seems to be falling, however, since the credit crunch so you may have a hard time selling it again. I think this will probably be true everywhere in the world. You may need to get Cat 1 (safety) approval for a NZ boat which can be expensive if you need to buy a lot of gear. The upside though, is it adds to the resale value of the boat once you have it. > > If you don't want to do any offshore and just want to sail around some islands (i.e. NZ weather can be crap), try going to Malaysia or Thailand. It's great cruising and boats can be bought and sold locally there. I had a wonderful and incredibly easy sail up from Langkawi to the northern edge Thailand and then across to India while crewing on a friend's boat. > > If you are looking for experience, I would really recommend crewing on boats first. It is easier than you think and you don't have the hassle of getting a boat ready in a short time frame. You need to place yourself where the boats are during the cruising season and follow the pack. Many boats are looking for crews as they jump around the pacific. You have to be in the right place at the right time and show you are keen, reliable and available but it can be done. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: bty568635 > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:06:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? > > Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the > breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly > off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... > > I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for > (eventually) long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat > and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak > dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at > 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, > and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat > over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an > offshore passage yet) > > Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick > up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, > say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go > home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or > owning a boat here in UK. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15471|15465|2007-11-11 17:13:28|Wesley Cox|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, I've often wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans sail in the big rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would be damn tough for sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is the draft of a 26 to the bottom of the vee of the hull? ----- Original Message ----- From: mark hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow boats to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered with a Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have gone easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil Bolger designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" wrote: > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > midwest of U.S. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15472|15454|2007-11-11 17:26:56|brentswain38|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|Years ago I saw some great deals in New Caledonia and Vauatu. People didn't fancy the long beat back to North America nor a circumnavigation at that point.i've heard the same about Panama. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Some of the boats listed here at Maz Marine in Mazatlan, Mexico seem value-priced http://www.mazmarine.com/ and one could voyage from there then sell again on return. I think the couple that runs the brokerage is from the USA. They once had a BS 31 for sale through there at a very good price too. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bty568635 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 5:06 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats? > > > Hi, I thought I'd post this on this forum, simply because of the > breadth of expertise I've found here. Apologies if it seems slightly > off topic, but I'm sure someone here can advise me... > > I live in the UK, and I'm looking for a boat, say 25 to 30 ft for > (eventually)long distance short handed cruising. Trouble is, UK boat > and gear prices are far higher than US, especially with the weak > dollar. If I import from the US East coast, I still have VAT ( at > 17.5% of the UK customs assessment of the boats value) import duty, > and find a delivery skipper willing to take a relatively small boat > over the North Atlantic for me.( Not confident about skippering on an > offshore passage yet) > > Thinking laterally; is there any part of the world where I could pick > up a good voyaging boat, spend 6 months or a year cruising it around, > say the central south Pacific, then either sell it or lay it up and go > home to earn more funds? This would make more sense than chartering or > owning a boat here in UK. > > I realise there are other forums I could ask this on, but you chaps > seem to have your 'eyes on the ball' more than a lot of others. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 3:47 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15473|15454|2007-11-11 17:41:28|richard barwell|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|hi, Thanks for all the replies,- I guess crewing for other people would be the most cost effective way of seeing the south pacific. Having seen Tahiti, and being aware of how far it is from Panama / Hawaii, I wondered if it might be a popular place to throw in the towel, as it were. I've heard this about Baja, too, although only as an anecdote. Do many people chicken out in Panama? Mexican brokerage prices do look very keen! Not surprised NZ is costly, and I take the point about the waters between there and Fiji, etc, being a bit 'challenging' sometimes. Anyone sailed Indonesia? Sulawesi sems a very simple and friendly place, had visions of just floating around there for a while, but where are all the cruisers? Maybe I'll just stick to the Bristol channel; at least it's familiar! Rich B --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15474|15132|2007-11-11 17:55:46|mickeyolaf|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|It's easy to find non Chinese imports. My winches are Danish, my blocks British, engine Japanese. My eyeglasses are from Italy, my shoes Australian, my tools US and Mexico, my knife US. My jeans are American, my watch is Swiss, my dress jackets are made in Chile, my overcoat in Poland, my socks are from New Zealand and on and on. I stopped buying "Made in China" a long time ago. You don't have to buy their products or shop at Walmart. It's false economy. I went to Canadian tire to buy a stainless kettle. They were all made in China. I went on the net, bought one made in Belgium which right now is boiling the water for my French press. My copper tea pot is made in Portugal. I went to Dick's Lumber the other day to buy a shovel. They had $9.95 Chinese shovels and $39 Canadian shovels. I bought the Canadian shovel because I know I will still be using it 20 years from now instead of replacing it in a week. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > My results from the purchase of Chines equipment is highly mixed > also. In any event you can sometimes be farther ahead if you go the > chinese route and buy a new motor when the supplied unit goes south. > This works on stationary equipment at least. > > So while it is a buyer be aware situation, people willing to benefit can > gain from the imports. The other problem is that it is getting hard > to find products other than the chinese imports. > > Dave > > > Michael Casling wrote: > > > > My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The > > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat > > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 > > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) > > are okay. > > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get > > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. > > > > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > > > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > > > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > > > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > > > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > > > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > > > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > > > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > > > luck if you get one that works. > > > Brent > > > > > | 15475|15132|2007-11-11 18:15:44|brentswain38|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way as their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist era. Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer records. Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks collapse , parts will be hard to find. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > It's easy to find non Chinese imports. My winches are Danish, my blocks British, engine > Japanese. > My eyeglasses are from Italy, my shoes Australian, my tools US and Mexico, my knife US. > My jeans are American, my watch is Swiss, my dress jackets are made in Chile, my > overcoat in Poland, my socks are from New Zealand and on and on. I stopped buying > "Made in China" a long time ago. > You don't have to buy their products or shop at Walmart. It's false economy. > I went to Canadian tire to buy a stainless kettle. They were all made in China. I went on the > net, bought one made in Belgium which right now is boiling the water for my French press. > My copper tea pot is made in Portugal. > I went to Dick's Lumber the other day to buy a shovel. They had $9.95 Chinese shovels > and $39 Canadian shovels. I bought the Canadian shovel because I know I will still be > using it 20 years from now instead of replacing it in a week. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > > > My results from the purchase of Chines equipment is highly mixed > > also. In any event you can sometimes be farther ahead if you go the > > chinese route and buy a new motor when the supplied unit goes south. > > This works on stationary equipment at least. > > > > So while it is a buyer be aware situation, people willing to benefit can > > gain from the imports. The other problem is that it is getting hard > > to find products other than the chinese imports. > > > > Dave > > > > > > Michael Casling wrote: > > > > > > My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months old. The > > > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one small boat > > > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > > > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My Makita 5 > > > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > > > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( wrenches ) > > > are okay. > > > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to get > > > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China produces. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean up their > > > > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on his > > > > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to bolt the > > > > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of drill > > > > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > > > > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since then, but > > > > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a lot of > > > > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a matter of > > > > luck if you get one that works. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > | 15476|15171|2007-11-11 18:39:24|Paul J. Thompson|Re: steel boat building|While Treadmaster and it's equivalents are very good on glass and alloy boats, I highly recommend that you stay away from it if you have a steel deck. I have seen far to many boats with it that had extensive corrosion underneath it. Juan José Yaboada wrote: > Hi seer: > > Treadmaster is an excellent product as well as a simillar one from Vetus. > If you go this way, please read the following article before for very useful tips. > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19934&highlight=treadmaster > > Regards, > > Juan José > Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15477|15132|2007-11-11 18:55:53|polaris041|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|When their banks colapse, it's all over. Currently the Chinese are funding the USA ecconomy just so that consummer oriented society has the funds to purchase the goods China makes, which provides jobs (poorly paid) for their zillions of labourers. Better keep buying all that crap guys or we all go down the ecconomic gurgler. Or build a boat and head off to some remote bay. Now that sounds a good idea. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way as > their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist era. > Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer records. > Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks collapse , > parts will be hard to find. > Brent .| 15478|15132|2007-11-11 19:05:11|brentswain38|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Build the boat, load her up and go cruising.Forget the rest. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > When their banks colapse, it's all over. > Currently the Chinese are funding the USA ecconomy just so that > consummer oriented society has the funds to purchase the goods China > makes, which provides jobs (poorly paid) for their zillions of > labourers. > > Better keep buying all that crap guys or we all go down the ecconomic > gurgler. > > Or build a boat and head off to some remote bay. Now that sounds a > good > idea. > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way as > > their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist era. > > Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer records. > > Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks > collapse , > > parts will be hard to find. > > Brent > . > | 15479|15454|2007-11-11 19:07:09|Harry James|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|I have often thought that Florida has about as many cheap boats as any place. You would need to spend some time and walk a lot of marina's to get the total picture. HJ richard barwell wrote: > hi, > > Thanks for all the replies,- I guess crewing for other people would be the most cost effective way of seeing the south pacific. Having seen Tahiti, and being aware of how far it is from Panama / Hawaii, I wondered if it might be a popular place to throw in the towel, as it were. I've heard this about Baja, too, although only as an anecdote. Do many people chicken out in Panama? > > Mexican brokerage prices do look very keen! Not surprised NZ is costly, and I take the point about the waters between there and Fiji, etc, being a bit 'challenging' sometimes. > > Anyone sailed Indonesia? Sulawesi sems a very simple and friendly place, had visions of just floating around there for a while, but where are all the cruisers? > > Maybe I'll just stick to the Bristol channel; at least it's familiar! > > Rich B > > > | 15480|15132|2007-11-11 19:12:45|polaris041|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Exactly; and leave all that high tech gizmo crap on the shelf cause it wont be any good to you in the long run. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Build the boat, load her up and go cruising.Forget the rest. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > When their banks colapse, it's all over. > > Currently the Chinese are funding the USA ecconomy just so that > > consummer oriented society has the funds to purchase the goods > China > > makes, which provides jobs (poorly paid) for their zillions of > > labourers. > > > > Better keep buying all that crap guys or we all go down the > ecconomic > > gurgler. > > > > Or build a boat and head off to some remote bay. Now that sounds a > > good > > idea. > > > > later pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way > as > > > their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist > era. > > > Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer > records. > > > Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks > > collapse , > > > parts will be hard to find. > > > Brent > > . > > > | 15481|15454|2007-11-11 20:10:30|Jim Phillips|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|1. Lake Okeechobee in Florida. You have to physically go there, wander about the local boatyard and see the abandoned boats with For Sale signs. 2. www.yachtworld.com 3. SE Asia. Good luck, Jim. --- richard barwell wrote: > hi, > > Thanks for all the replies,- I guess crewing for > other people would be the most cost effective way of > seeing the south pacific. Having seen Tahiti, and > being aware of how far it is from Panama / Hawaii, I > wondered if it might be a popular place to throw in > the towel, as it were. I've heard this about Baja, > too, although only as an anecdote. Do many people > chicken out in Panama? > > Mexican brokerage prices do look very keen! Not > surprised NZ is costly, and I take the point about > the waters between there and Fiji, etc, being a bit > 'challenging' sometimes. > > Anyone sailed Indonesia? Sulawesi sems a very simple > and friendly place, had visions of just floating > around there for a while, but where are all the > cruisers? > > Maybe I'll just stick to the Bristol channel; at > least it's familiar! > > Rich B > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone > who knows. Tryit now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/| 15482|15403|2007-11-11 20:53:59|Michael Casling|Re: Screw jacks|Deeper and coarser than what? I purchased the grade 8 threaded rod with the deeper and coarser thread, just like the screw jacks at the marina. Went to the machine shop first to discuss the project, then to the supply store. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > These screw jacks and the Brownell ones have a much coarser and deeper > thread. > > HJ | 15483|15403|2007-11-11 21:05:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Screw jacks|Screw jacks use Acme threads. Those of course are 'deeper and coarser' than a standard bolt thread of the same diameter. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks Deeper and coarser than what? I purchased the grade 8 threaded rod with the deeper and coarser thread, just like the screw jacks at the marina. Went to the machine shop first to discuss the project, then to the supply store. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > These screw jacks and the Brownell ones have a much coarser and deeper > thread. > > HJ | 15484|15403|2007-11-11 21:23:12|Michael Casling|Re: Screw jacks|Thanks Gary. The store had a variety of threaded rod. While I was in the store I had the guy call the machine shop to make sure I got the right stuff. On my boat I let the keel take all the weight, then I crank up the pressure on the pads. Been working steady on my trailer so I can load the boat. It is a faltdeck, normally used to to move loaded apple bins. But the deck is too high, so I have cut out all the higher cross sections, and now will get 4 cross beams welded in, lower down. Shortened the cradle by the same amount of drop, and cut out the center section of the cradle. Trying to get in done before the snow starts falling. Switching the vacuum over hydraulic brakes to all electric, then will swap the rear end in the truck for a lower ratio. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks Screw jacks use Acme threads. Those of course are 'deeper and coarser' than a standard bolt thread of the same diameter. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks Deeper and coarser than what? I purchased the grade 8 threaded rod with the deeper and coarser thread, just like the screw jacks at the marina. Went to the machine shop first to discuss the project, then to the supply store. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > These screw jacks and the Brownell ones have a much coarser and deeper > thread. > > HJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15485|15403|2007-11-11 21:36:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Screw jacks|Michael, Acme screws are MUCH easier to turn than regular V screw threads. They also work after rusting for years, when regular screw threads seize up in no time. This is because Acme threads have a huge radial clearance inside the nut and the thread angle is shallower so there is less wedging. A conventional thread has the goal of tightening up and locking against vibration. An acme has the goal of being freely moved and not locking well. I used regular screw thread rods on my last boat trailer. However that was because I got 6 pieces of 1-1/4" threaded rod and the nuts for free! It did not work real well. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks > Thanks Gary. > The store had a variety of threaded rod. While I was in the store I had > the guy call the machine shop to make sure I got the right stuff. On my > boat I let the keel take all the weight, then I crank up the pressure on > the pads. > Been working steady on my trailer so I can load the boat. It is a > faltdeck, normally used to to move loaded apple bins. But the deck is too > high, so I have cut out all the higher cross sections, and now will get 4 > cross beams welded in, lower down. > Shortened the cradle by the same amount of drop, and cut out the center > section of the cradle. Trying to get in done before the snow starts > falling. Switching the vacuum over hydraulic brakes to all electric, then > will swap the rear end in the truck for a lower ratio. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks > > > Screw jacks use Acme threads. Those of course are 'deeper and coarser' > than > a standard bolt thread of the same diameter. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Screw jacks > > Deeper and coarser than what? > > I purchased the grade 8 threaded rod with the deeper and coarser > thread, just like the screw jacks at the marina. > Went to the machine shop first to discuss the project, then to the > supply store. > > Michael > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > > > These screw jacks and the Brownell ones have a much coarser and > deeper > > thread. > > > > HJ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15486|15454|2007-11-11 23:00:49|seeratlas|Re: Anywhere thats good for buying cheap boats?|I'll second that, there are a lot of boats for sail in the north florida yards and marinas I've seen so far. They are NOT advertised and only the manager of the yard would really know about them. There are six or seven where I am now. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harry James wrote: > > I have often thought that Florida has about as many cheap boats as any > place. You would need to spend some time and walk a lot of marina's to > get the total picture. > > HJ > > richard barwell wrote: > > hi, > > > > Thanks for all the replies,- I guess crewing for other people would be the most cost effective way of seeing the south pacific. Having seen Tahiti, and being aware of how far it is from Panama / Hawaii, I wondered if it might be a popular place to throw in the towel, as it were. I've heard this about Baja, too, although only as an anecdote. Do many people chicken out in Panama? > > > > Mexican brokerage prices do look very keen! Not surprised NZ is costly, and I take the point about the waters between there and Fiji, etc, being a bit 'challenging' sometimes. > > > > Anyone sailed Indonesia? Sulawesi sems a very simple and friendly place, had visions of just floating around there for a while, but where are all the cruisers? > > > > Maybe I'll just stick to the Bristol channel; at least it's familiar! > > > > Rich B > > > > > > > | 15487|15132|2007-11-11 23:08:57|seeratlas|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|well, its a bit more complicated than that. Chinese have been handling money for about 4k years now...their system is unusual, but since normalization, they have been *layering* western type protocols. The biggest difference is that the entire system is centrally controlled, pretty much with an iron fist. There are bootleg banks separate from the central system, but they are generally small and dispersed. The guys that physically run the central system are for the most part educated in the west. Similar situations exist in the russian central bank which has been pretty much taken under control by the Kremilin, i.e. Putin. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way as > their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist era. > Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer records. > Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks collapse , > parts will be hard to find. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > It's easy to find non Chinese imports. My winches are Danish, my > blocks British, engine > > Japanese. > > My eyeglasses are from Italy, my shoes Australian, my tools US and > Mexico, my knife US. > > My jeans are American, my watch is Swiss, my dress jackets are made > in Chile, my > > overcoat in Poland, my socks are from New Zealand and on and on. I > stopped buying > > "Made in China" a long time ago. > > You don't have to buy their products or shop at Walmart. It's false > economy. > > I went to Canadian tire to buy a stainless kettle. They were all > made in China. I went on the > > net, bought one made in Belgium which right now is boiling the > water for my French press. > > My copper tea pot is made in Portugal. > > I went to Dick's Lumber the other day to buy a shovel. They had > $9.95 Chinese shovels > > and $39 Canadian shovels. I bought the Canadian shovel because I > know I will still be > > using it 20 years from now instead of replacing it in a week. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > > > My results from the purchase of Chines equipment is highly mixed > > > also. In any event you can sometimes be farther ahead if you > go the > > > chinese route and buy a new motor when the supplied unit goes > south. > > > This works on stationary equipment at least. > > > > > > So while it is a buyer be aware situation, people willing to > benefit can > > > gain from the imports. The other problem is that it is getting > hard > > > to find products other than the chinese imports. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > Michael Casling wrote: > > > > > > > > My 14 inch cut off saw quit on the weekend, only a few months > old. The > > > > dealer replaced it with a new one. My sander quit after one > small boat > > > > bottom, it was replaced. The chuck in my drill is crap. > > > > Seems to me that Chinese electric motors are not very good. My > Makita 5 > > > > inch grinder is about 10 years old and has zero problems. > > > > My 2 1/2 ton Chinese jack works okay, and the hand tools ( > wrenches ) > > > > are okay. > > > > I would suggest for anyone other than the occassional user, to > get > > > > better quality electric motor powered tools, than China > produces. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The Chinese hired a German diesel expert to help them clean > up their > > > > > act, in the early 90's. As he was walking thru the factory on > his > > > > > first day , he came across a crew that was just starting to > bolt the > > > > > head on a diesel. He stopped them and picked 454 grams of > drill > > > > > cuttings out of the cylindre that they were about to enclose . > > > > > They have probably drasticaly improved their engines since > then, but > > > > > I'd never trust anything they made before then.I've heard a > lot of > > > > > horror stories .Some people ge lucky, but it's purely a > matter of > > > > > luck if you get one that works. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15488|15132|2007-11-11 23:31:00|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Well Seer, as you say, the Chinese have been handling money for 4k and more years. Since our system is the young un, I would have to say their system is the usual one :-) My wife is Chinese (from Nanning, Guangxi) and she does pretty well I have to say, despite her (to me) somewhat unorthodox way of doing things at times. seeratlas wrote: > well, its a bit more complicated than that. Chinese have been handling > money for about 4k years now...their system is unusual, but since > normalization, they have been *layering* western type protocols. The > biggest difference is that the entire system is centrally controlled, > pretty much with an iron fist. There are bootleg banks separate from > the central system, but they are generally small and dispersed. The -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15489|15132|2007-11-12 07:10:10|edward_stoneuk|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|Brent, My understanding is that it is some Western banks that are having difficulty due to their involvment in dodgy credit particularly sub prime investments. Both the UK and the US have huge deficits. China has a huge surplus. If you Google Northern Rock news or Citigroup news you will see what I mean. One can make a lot of mistakes if you are in surplus and keep going. If you are in deficit a mistake can mean disaster. As Dicken's Mr Micawber said, "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." Regards, Ted > I heard the Chinese banking system is put together the same way as > their shovels and engines, haywire leftover from the communist era. > Most of their accounts are on paper only with no computer records. > Good thing their stuff is disposable, as when their banks collapse , > parts will be hard to find. > Brent > | 15490|15490|2007-11-12 16:15:04|knutfgarshol|Yanmar experiences|Hi, I wonder if any one would have first hand experience with Yanmar diesel 26HP, Engine Model: 3GM30F? My main question is really what to expect from an engine with 2650 hours on the clock. I do not know yet how well it has been maintained, but let's say that part has been OK, then what sort of further operational lifetime should I expect before any major overhaul would be recommended? Experiences, opinions, hear-say etc., I am happy for all feedback that can shed some light. Knut (future diesel mechanic) :-))| 15491|15490|2007-11-12 16:55:20|Joe Earsley|Re: Yanmar experiences|Knut, Was the engine fresh water cooled? If so, then the engine is probably OK allthough I would try to get a compression check before I handed over my cash. If the engine is salt water cooled then I would look deeper into the condition. The exhaust manifolds and thermostat housings for sure. Cheers! joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of knutfgarshol Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Yanmar experiences Hi, I wonder if any one would have first hand experience with Yanmar diesel 26HP, Engine Model: 3GM30F? My main question is really what to expect from an engine with 2650 hours on the clock. I do not know yet how well it has been maintained, but let's say that part has been OK, then what sort of further operational lifetime should I expect before any major overhaul would be recommended? Experiences, opinions, hear-say etc., I am happy for all feedback that can shed some light. Knut (future diesel mechanic) :-)) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 15492|15132|2007-11-12 17:23:55|Paul Wilson|Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA!|I hate to make a political comment having posted on this forum that we shouldn't be doing so but hopefully this is related to obtaining quality boat parts ;). A general comment: I would never underestimate the Chinese.....they are hard working, motivated and well educated. The same goes for the Indians. Are we talking now about the Chinese the way we used to talk about the Japanese? When I was a kid, "made in Japan" was a joke. Japan is no joke now. The truth was the American cars (and other products) were the joke but nobody wanted to admit it. The Japanese left the American car makers eating their dust, so to speak. It took years for the American cars to improve enough to compete. I think the Chinese and the Indians are smart enough to do whatever it takes to compete and survive in the marketplace. At least as much as any other country. I am not sure if any of this is good or bad, the future will tell......just don't underestimate the Chinese, or the Indians, or the......(insert SE Asian country here). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:30:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Gen sets prices...WHOA! Well Seer, as you say, the Chinese have been handling money for 4k and more years. Since our system is the young un, I would have to say their system is the usual one :-) My wife is Chinese (from Nanning, Guangxi) and she does pretty well I have to say, despite her (to me) somewhat unorthodox way of doing things at times. seeratlas wrote: > well, its a bit more complicated than that. Chinese have been handling > money for about 4k years now...their system is unusual, but since > normalization, they have been *layering* western type protocols. The > biggest difference is that the entire system is centrally controlled, > pretty much with an iron fist. There are bootleg banks separate from > the central system, but they are generally small and dispersed. The -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15493|15403|2007-11-12 19:18:00|pyoungbl|Re: Screw jacks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Michael, > Acme screws are MUCH easier to turn than regular V screw threads. They also > work after rusting for years, when regular screw threads seize up in no > time. I just went through this drill. I'm building a 22' tug and needed a steel cradle to move the boat out of my warehouse. In the end I found a marina with excess 'heads' for their screw jacks. Evidently the bases had rusted out but the screw parts were OK. I got my 24" jacks for $30 each and cut them down to fit my cradle. They fit in a 1 1/2" ID pipe, which I could get locally. Call Sailcraft Service Inc. in Oriental, NC. I am a welder so fabricating this was pretty easy. The end product is working just fine. Peter Y.| 15494|15465|2007-11-12 19:46:57|Tom|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|I havnt measured exact but its close to 2' Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Cox" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, I've often > wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans sail in the big > rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would be damn tough for > sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is the draft of a 26 to > the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mark hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow boats > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered with a > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have gone > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil Bolger > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" > wrote: > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: > 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15495|15495|2007-11-12 21:15:14|Tom|BS 26 gas tank|Tight fit but I made room under cockpit, managed a 10"x11"x24" tank about 11-1/2 gallons 10 gallons usable, not bad if I figured right should give me a 70 Nmile range. being that small I used 16 gage black and kept it light. Now I will rework the exhaust picked up some flex exhaust tube and will see what i come up with, Whats better stainless or regular steel for the flex tube? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15496|15171|2007-11-12 23:58:08|seeratlas|Re: steel boat building|Thanks Juan but I think you meant someone else. I'm pretty sure at this point I'm going to try the KiwiGrip on the decks, and maybe on my steps thru the hatch. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Juan José Yaboada wrote: > > Hi seer: > > Treadmaster is an excellent product as well as a simillar one from Vetus. > If you go this way, please read the following article before for very useful tips. > > http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19934&highlight=treadmaster > > Regards, > > Juan José > > seeratlas escribió: > -I may take a shot at this too. Sent off for some samples and got an > immediate reply and some installation tips from the guy handling this > stuff. Seems like a good find so far. :) I'll let you know what the > samples look like when they show up later this week. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > I was going to use Treadmaster but this looks better. Treadmaster > > needs to be epoxied down and recoated for uv damge. It eventually > > edgelifts as can be seen on older Fisher motorsailors. > > I wonder how Kiwigrip stands up in the sun on a metal boat. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson > > wrote: > > > > > > In New Zealand I have seen a few boats use this for non-skid and > > the owners swear by it: > > > > > > http://www.kiwigrip.com/index.html > > > > > > It's called Don't Slip or Kiwigrip. I am going to give it a try. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:16:26 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > I'd be interested in hearing about that also Alex. I was going to > > use > > > some thermal paint then a couple of coats of the stuff mixxed with > > a > > > little sand for the deck. I've been worrying about the temp of a > > flush > > > steel deck in south florida :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > > > > > > There was some kind of grey paint with non-skid cork in it on my > > > other boat, was painted over the two part polyurethane and seems to > > > have stood up very well to six years of hard use and one great > > circle > > > trip. I'll find out what brand that was, as the can is still on the > > > boat I think. It was nice to sit on even, gave the feeling of a > > bit of > > > springy give (probably an illuision) and excellent grip when > > sailing > > > at normal BS36 angles of heel under a press of sail. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Carl Anderson > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:43 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel boat building > > > > > > > > > > > > I would think that there will be problems with the great > > difference > > > > between the hardness of cured epoxy and the relatively soft cork. > > > > > > > > I am leaning towards using Treadmaster (cork & rubber mixed into > > > > sheeting) on the deck of my boat. Reports show that the lifespan > > of > > > > this non skid is over 10 years with some boats going to 15 years > > > of use. > > > > > > > > Not bad for a one time application. I don't think that anything > > mixed > > > > into epoxy can approach that lifespan. > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > > > > > > > sae140 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > , Alex Christie > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I noted on my 36 that paint on steel is quite comfortable to > > touch > > > > > in cold or hot weather, and it's not at all as unfriendly as > > bare > > > > > aluminum is (alu sucks the life of out you in cold weather). > > Wood on > > > > > steel is not a match made in heaven, the different rates of > > > expansion > > > > > during heating and cooling, as well as wood's propensity to > > absorb > > > > > moisture will for sure create a space containing salt water and > > > invite > > > > > corrosion. > > > > > > > > > > For a deck covering, many of the Wylo guys are using > > granulated cork > > > > > set in epoxy paint with good results. No problems reported. > > > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1097 - Release Date: > > > 28/10/2007 1:58 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > ¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo! > Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos en: > http://telemundo.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15497|15497|2007-11-13 04:33:17|ikubanh|pinky stlye yachts|has any one built or building a americain stlye pinky double ender useing the orgami method , I think this cold be a intersting concept for a classic style| 15498|15403|2007-11-13 08:48:23|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Screw jacks|Ideally you want square threads but you would probably need a mate with a lathe to cut those.The adjustable scaffolding jacks are known as 'Acrows' in the UK but I dont know what sort of loading they would take. cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15499|15499|2007-11-13 09:04:18|Alfredo Nannetti|Question|Ciao Brent, I' m studing in the details the drowings you gave me. I start with questions. It' s very clear how to lay off the hull shell, what about the deck, the cabin end cockpit? I can't find the longitudinal measurement to know where to fit the keels (bilge and fin keel). alfredo| 15500|15497|2007-11-13 16:16:09|seeratlas|Re: pinky stlye yachts|Not that I'm aware of. closest thing to it might be evan's junk rigged boat he built. I would think it might be hard to get the sheer right given how much higher aft the pink's normally are, but Greg claims he can work up pretty much any shape on his puter so you might ask him. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ikubanh" wrote: > > has any one built or building a americain stlye pinky double ender > useing the orgami method , I think this cold be a intersting concept > for a classic style > | 15501|15501|2007-11-13 18:47:40|edward_stoneuk|Pictures of our boat|I have posted some pictures of our boat Fly in the photo albums. Some are old ones some are recent. We are in the process of roughing out the interior and there are some photos of that and a couple of pictures of the engine exhaust showing the flexible bellows connector and silencer. Regards, Ted| 15502|15501|2007-11-13 20:09:05|Tom|Re: Pictures of our boat|Hey Ted Lookin good, The angle iron framing for the interior ought to be hell for strong. couple questions. What are you going to use for insulation? and youre dry exhaust does it exit above water line or are you bringing it down under water? Wish I would have sandblasted when the boat was in halfs, sure would have made life easyer but I had two strikes against it couldnt find any zink primer and it was late November . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Pictures of our boat >I have posted some pictures of our boat Fly in the photo albums. Some > are old ones some are recent. We are in the process of roughing out > the interior and there are some photos of that and a couple of > pictures of the engine exhaust showing the flexible bellows connector > and silencer. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15503|15465|2007-11-13 23:07:48|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|It would be plenty stable enough for motoring.I believe it is about 26 inches roughly to the bottom of the V, but I'll check the drawings. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I havnt measured exact but its close to 2' > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wesley Cox" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, I've often > > wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans sail in the big > > rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would be damn tough for > > sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is the draft of a 26 to > > the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: mark hamill > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow boats > > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered with a > > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have gone > > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil Bolger > > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" > > wrote: > > > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: > > 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15504|15497|2007-11-13 23:11:46|brentswain38|Re: pinky stlye yachts|Not that I know of. One 36 was done as a canoe stern with no problems, just did both ends the same as the bow. A Colvin pinky here on the coast proved extremely tender and slow as a government refund.Wider sterns give stability , especially when the midship section drops in the trough between the bow and stern wave. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ikubanh" wrote: > > has any one built or building a americain stlye pinky double ender > useing the orgami method , I think this cold be a intersting concept > for a classic style > | 15505|15499|2007-11-13 23:20:54|brentswain38|Re: Question|Alfredo The distance from the bow tot he leading edge of the twin keels is given on the plate layout drawing. I believe it is around 13 ft 3 inches, but I'll check it out.. The twin keels are then measured 30 inches off the centreline,as shown on the section drawing, then checked accross the trailing edges and leading edges to make them parallel, before cutting the holes out. All the drawings are to scale, so use that scale I gave you, when in doubt. It is a good idea to lay out the deck shapes full size to get the deck patterns. Big cardboard furniture boxes make great patterns. The leading edge of the fin keel is right under the mast step, 11 feet back from the top of the stem, as shown in the keel drawing.The position of ther twin keels , relative to the mast ,is also shown on the keel drawing. Brent Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Ciao Brent, > I' m studing in the details the drowings you gave me. > I start with questions. > It' s very clear how to lay off the hull shell, what about the deck, > the cabin end cockpit? > > I can't find the longitudinal measurement to know where to fit the > keels (bilge and fin keel). > > alfredo > | 15506|15506|2007-11-14 03:04:17|zy11661|Hooking up age gap relationships|I came across an online community for individual seeking age gap relationships. Here all the people are seeking age gap relationships. Age is not important in a relationship. You can meet your like-minded friends or partners. http://hometown.aol.com/singles85/agelesscupid.htm| 15507|15507|2007-11-14 03:32:07|cedley1969|Where to buy steel in the UK?|I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a 36' hull. Anyone got any idea where to go?| 15508|15499|2007-11-14 03:36:16|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: Question|Brent, > The distance from the bow tot he leading edge of the twin keels is > given on the plate layout drawing. I believe it is around 13 ft 3 > inches, but I'll check it out.. I can't find this distance on the drowing > All the drawings are to scale, so use that scale I gave you, when in > doubt. It is a good idea to lay out the deck shapes full size to get > the deck patterns. Ok, but the deck drowing has only "flat" measurement. The bow triangle and the deck house have a camber. So, what to do when making deck patterns with the real devolop on a flat surface? Just let me be sure if I've got all the drowings. I have: hull patterns boat lines (with curves of areas) deck details (with the self steering drowings) sails (main and genoa) boat profile (with sailing measurument) deck details (the drowing with the wheel house measurement) interiors Total of 7 drowing Thanks alfredo| 15509|15507|2007-11-14 05:12:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" wrote: > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a 36' hull. > Anyone got any idea where to go? > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they had just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any more, but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and welded them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to get the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed hull. Regards, Ted| 15510|15501|2007-11-14 05:50:11|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pictures of our boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hey Ted > Lookin good, The angle iron framing for the interior ought to be hell for > strong. couple questions. What are you going to use for insulation? Hi Tom, I intend to use sprayed on foam down to the water line or thereabouts although I haven't gone into it a great deal. Some of the framing is bolted in and will be removed for blasting and painting the 40 x 40 x 3 angle (1½" x 1½" x 1/8"). The foaming will be done with the angle removed and > youre dry exhaust does it exit above water line or are you bringing it down > under water? The exhaust exits through the transom above the waterline with a steel flap (non-return valve) over the end. I thought about taking it down into the water like Brent does, but didn't have enough pipe. I might do it later. The pipe I used is scrap stainless steel exhaust pipe, from a Renault van I think. I put a drain point in the lowest part where it bends up to the bellows connector. Regards, Ted > Wish I would have sandblasted when the boat was in halfs, sure would have > made life easyer but I had two strikes against it couldnt find any zink > primer and it was late November . > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" tedstone@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Pictures of our boat > > > >I have posted some pictures of our boat Fly in the photo albums. Some > > are old ones some are recent. We are in the process of roughing out > > the interior and there are some photos of that and a couple of > > pictures of the engine exhaust showing the flexible bellows connector > > and silencer. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15511|15501|2007-11-14 08:21:41|Ray|Re: Pictures of our boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hey Ted > > Lookin good, The angle iron framing for the interior ought to be hell > for > > strong. couple questions. What are you going to use for insulation? > > Hi Tom, > > I intend to use sprayed on foam down to the water line or thereabouts > although I haven't gone into it a great deal. Dumb question - why would you not foam below the waterline? Sorry if this is elementary knowledge - Ray Kimbro| 15512|15501|2007-11-14 12:25:44|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pictures of our boat|Ray, Well, more not foam under the cabin sole really. This so the bilges are easier to keep clean. It is not a dumb question. If I were thinking of going to a higher latitude I might consider it or fitting easily removable insulation. Regards, Ted > > Dumb question - why would you not foam below the waterline? > > Sorry if this is elementary knowledge - > > Ray Kimbro > | 15513|15507|2007-11-14 13:06:06|colin edley|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Thanks for that, I've seen a couple of attempts with plates welded together and I'd rather do it from full sheets. I know somebody must supply the dimensions in england I need as I see water tanks etc made from sheet in the dimensions I could use. edward_stoneuk wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" wrote: > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a 36' hull. > Anyone got any idea where to go? > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they had just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any more, but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and welded them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to get the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed hull. Regards, Ted --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15514|15501|2007-11-14 13:13:10|brentswain38|Re: Pictures of our boat|Last summer I glued foam to the underside of my cabin floor panels and the bilges are dry this winter instead of full of condensation. Foam in the bilges results in people having to scrape a soggy, oil soaked mass of foam and goop out of the bilges early on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Ray, > > Well, more not foam under the cabin sole really. This so the bilges > are easier to keep clean. It is not a dumb question. If I were > thinking of going to a higher latitude I might consider it or > fitting easily removable insulation. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > Dumb question - why would you not foam below the waterline? > > > > Sorry if this is elementary knowledge - > > > > Ray Kimbro > > > | 15515|15501|2007-11-14 13:14:38|brentswain38|Re: Pictures of our boat|Yes you definitly want to foam well below the waterline , right to the floorboards and no lower. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Hey Ted > > > Lookin good, The angle iron framing for the interior ought to be > hell > > for > > > strong. couple questions. What are you going to use for > insulation? > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > I intend to use sprayed on foam down to the water line or > thereabouts > > although I haven't gone into it a great deal. > > Dumb question - why would you not foam below the waterline? > > Sorry if this is elementary knowledge - > > Ray Kimbro > | 15516|15499|2007-11-14 13:20:04|brentswain38|Re: Question|Use the flat measurements. Don't worry about the effect of the camber. I'll check out the rest when I get back to the boat in a few days. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Brent, > > > The distance from the bow tot he leading edge of the twin keels is > > given on the plate layout drawing. I believe it is around 13 ft 3 > > inches, but I'll check it out.. > > I can't find this distance on the drowing > > > All the drawings are to scale, so use that scale I gave you, when in > > doubt. It is a good idea to lay out the deck shapes full size to get > > the deck patterns. > > Ok, but the deck drowing has only "flat" measurement. The bow > triangle and the deck house have a camber. So, what to do when making > deck patterns with the real devolop on a flat surface? > > Just let me be sure if I've got all the drowings. > I have: > > hull patterns > boat lines (with curves of areas) > deck details (with the self steering drowings) > sails (main and genoa) > boat profile (with sailing measurument) > deck details (the drowing with the wheel house measurement) > interiors > Total of 7 drowing > > Thanks > alfredo > | 15517|15507|2007-11-14 17:37:51|polaris041|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Try finding out who made the tanks, ask them where the steel came from. Try a google 'Steel suppliers UK'. Ring the most likely a few times so you get to speak to different people. Often 'clerks' don't extend them selves for casual callers. Find some steel fabricators in your area, go ask them who can supply what you want. It is there,as you are aware, not everything comes from china yet in bubble wrap. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Thanks for that, I've seen a couple of attempts with plates welded together and I'd rather do it from full sheets. > I know somebody must supply the dimensions in england I need as I see water tanks etc made from sheet in the dimensions I could use. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: - -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" > wrote: > > > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a 36' > hull. > > Anyone got any idea where to go? > > > > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they had > just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any more, > but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and welded > them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to get > the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed hull. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15518|15518|2007-11-14 18:18:23|mllmag|Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hello, I have been a lurker sometime, and I have bought Brent's book and the plans for the BS26. Does anybody know what the displacement of the 26 and 31 in the empty (just hull, ballast, rig, rudder. Not even interior if possible. Or please specify in what condition the boat was when you measured it, and in the fully loaded condition are? (let's say until she begins to be unsafe,or like when the ability to sail close to the wind is greatly diminished. Or I can just take the displacement figures from Brent's plans, assuming they are the maximum weight the boat is designed for). And the expected typical daily run of both of them? (from posts in the group it seems like the 31 typically can do between 120-160 miles per day, weather permitting. But I can not find any reference for the 26. Maybe 90-120 miles per day would be a close one, in your opinion?) And if you have any idea on the difference in cost one can expect for building oneself the bare hull, rig (optionally, since it depends on the type of rig. I would go for steel or else wood mast, and galvanized shrouds), rudder, ballast, and paint between the two (I know there is much more costs in a boat besides that, but that is greatly dependable on tastes, and this would give me a rough idea of what I can afford). Well, this is just to have some numbers where to base any decision between attempting to build any of the two for sailing for one person (two unlikely) for long term (hopefully). So any help in case anybody in the group knows would be really appreciated. And I guess other people might be interested in those too (I can not imagine i am the only one... But maybe it is very difficult to know any of the data I am asking, that is why it is seldom asked?). Thanks a lot for any help, and I'll keep enjoying reading your posts... Marti| 15519|15519|2007-11-14 21:17:48|mickeyolaf|Bowsprit on a Swain?|Has anyone ever added a short bowsprit to a BS36? Would it upset the boat's balance to increase the J measurement 3 or 4 feet? It would move the center of effort forward and allow a larger foretriangle. I was thinking of an aluminum tube A frame sprit and bobstay to support the forestay roller and an inner stay on a lever for an occassional cutter rigging or stormsail. I'm next at the marina for a 40' slip. (I've been waiting since Dec 03). Since I'll be paying for 40' why not use it. I've rigged for a self tacking jib so a larger one would produce more drive. I also plan a drifter and have tracked the mast for a spinnaker pole. Lot's of combinations of sail as well as being able to use a larger 130 or bigger if I want. Is a 3' sprit on a BS 36 a no go?| 15520|15519|2007-11-14 22:27:09|Tom|Re: Bowsprit on a Swain?|If you have room would a longer foot on the main help compinsate? Off the wind the bowsprit wouldnt hurt but for the rest might have to add a lot of rake to mast to balance witch depowers sail plan and youre back to square one. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Bowsprit on a Swain? > Has anyone ever added a short bowsprit to a BS36? Would it upset the > boat's balance to > increase the J measurement 3 or 4 feet? > It would move the center of effort forward and allow a larger > foretriangle. I was thinking of > an aluminum tube A frame sprit and bobstay to support the forestay roller > and an inner > stay on a lever for an occassional cutter rigging or stormsail. > I'm next at the marina for a 40' slip. (I've been waiting since Dec 03). > Since I'll be paying > for 40' why not use it. > I've rigged for a self tacking jib so a larger one would produce more > drive. I also plan a > drifter and have tracked the mast for a spinnaker pole. Lot's of > combinations of sail as well > as being able to use a larger 130 or bigger if I want. > Is a 3' sprit on a BS 36 a no go? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15521|15518|2007-11-14 23:11:07|kingsknight4life|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hi Marti I am not 100% positive but I think Brent says the difference in cost between the 26 and 31 is minimal but the difference in space is huge. I've been on board of both of, Winston's daughters' BS26 (sorry can't remeber her name at this moment) and Brent's 31. I would get the 31 if it were up to me. Brent's boat seems way bigger than the 26 but that might be partially due to his open layout. ala PS 31's. ie. no full bulkheads. Hope this helps, Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > Hello, > I have been a lurker sometime, and I have bought Brent's book and the > plans for the BS26. Does anybody know what the displacement of the 26 > and 31 in the empty (just hull, ballast, rig, rudder. Not even > interior if possible. Or please specify in what condition the boat was > when you measured it, and in the fully loaded condition are? (let's > say until she begins to be unsafe,or like when the ability to sail > close to the wind is greatly diminished. Or I can just take the > displacement figures from Brent's plans, assuming they are the maximum > weight the boat is designed for). And the expected typical daily run > of both of them? (from posts in the group it seems like the 31 > typically can do between 120-160 miles per day, weather permitting. > But I can not find any reference for the 26. Maybe 90-120 miles per > day would be a close one, in your opinion?) And if you have any idea > on the difference in cost one can expect for building oneself the bare > hull, rig (optionally, since it depends on the type of rig. I would go > for steel or else wood mast, and galvanized shrouds), rudder, ballast, > and paint between the two (I know there is much more costs in a boat > besides that, but that is greatly dependable on tastes, and this would > give me a rough idea of what I can afford). > Well, this is just to have some numbers where to base any decision > between attempting to build any of the two for sailing for one person > (two unlikely) for long term (hopefully). So any help in case anybody > in the group knows would be really appreciated. And I guess other > people might be interested in those too (I can not imagine i am the > only one... But maybe it is very difficult to know any of the data I > am asking, that is why it is seldom asked?). > Thanks a lot for any help, and I'll keep enjoying reading your posts... > > Marti > | 15522|15507|2007-11-15 03:17:58|colin edley|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Tried most of the above, I think the best avenue is going to be asking tank makers. polaris041 wrote: Try finding out who made the tanks, ask them where the steel came from. Try a google 'Steel suppliers UK'. Ring the most likely a few times so you get to speak to different people. Often 'clerks' don't extend them selves for casual callers. Find some steel fabricators in your area, go ask them who can supply what you want. It is there,as you are aware, not everything comes from china yet in bubble wrap. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Thanks for that, I've seen a couple of attempts with plates welded together and I'd rather do it from full sheets. > I know somebody must supply the dimensions in england I need as I see water tanks etc made from sheet in the dimensions I could use. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: - -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" > wrote: > > > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a 36' > hull. > > Anyone got any idea where to go? > > > > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they had > just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any more, > but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and welded > them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to get > the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed hull. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15523|15507|2007-11-15 04:03:30|polaris041|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Just keep asking; I was constantly told that the biggest profile cutting bed in my city was 3x12 meters. Kept asking and closer than 4kms I found a bed 3.5 x 25 meters, charge $6/min and cut 2.4m per minute with no set up charge. It's there if you just keep asking. Found a sand blaster even closer with a booth 15x8m who will blast my half hulls and inorganic zinc spray for $11.00/sq m. So don't give up. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Tried most of the above, I think the best avenue is going to be asking tank makers. > > polaris041 wrote: Try finding out who made the tanks, ask them where the steel came > from. > Try a google 'Steel suppliers UK'. Ring the most likely a few times > so you get to speak to different people. Often 'clerks' don't extend > them selves for casual callers. > Find some steel fabricators in your area, go ask them who can supply > what you want. > It is there,as you are aware, not everything comes from china yet in > bubble wrap. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley > wrote: > > > > Thanks for that, I've seen a couple of attempts with plates welded > together and I'd rather do it from full sheets. > > I know somebody must supply the dimensions in england I need as I > see water tanks etc made from sheet in the dimensions I could use. > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: - > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" > > wrote: > > > > > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a > 36' > > hull. > > > Anyone got any idea where to go? > > > > > > > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they > had > > just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any > more, > > but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and > welded > > them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to > get > > the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed > hull. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good > this month. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15524|15499|2007-11-15 06:03:18|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: Question|Ok Brent, in the mean while another couple of questions. I suppose that the top of the big plate that you use for the half shell (which is a straight line), once curved, takes the right sheer. Is that true? Then, does the bulwark includes the washboard or I have to add it? And if the washboard is included how much lower does the deck goes? I don't have rudder drowing, shape and dimensions. Sorry about my english Thanks alf > Use the flat measurements. Don't worry about the effect of the > camber. I'll check out the rest when I get back to the boat in a few > days. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > > The distance from the bow tot he leading edge of the twin keels > is > > > given on the plate layout drawing. I believe it is around 13 ft 3 > > > inches, but I'll check it out.. > > > > I can't find this distance on the drowing > > > > > All the drawings are to scale, so use that scale I gave you, > when in > > > doubt. It is a good idea to lay out the deck shapes full size > to get > > > the deck patterns. > > > > Ok, but the deck drowing has only "flat" measurement. The bow > > triangle and the deck house have a camber. So, what to do when > making > > deck patterns with the real devolop on a flat surface? > > > > Just let me be sure if I've got all the drowings. > > I have: > > > > hull patterns > > boat lines (with curves of areas) > > deck details (with the self steering drowings) > > sails (main and genoa) > > boat profile (with sailing measurument) > > deck details (the drowing with the wheel house measurement) > > interiors > > Total of 7 drowing > > > > Thanks > > alfredo > > > > > | 15525|15525|2007-11-15 06:35:45|philip878|plans etc for these boats|I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small yacht is this building method easyer .......who seels the plans| 15526|15525|2007-11-15 06:35:57|philip878|plans etc for these boats|I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans| 15527|15501|2007-11-15 07:58:24|Ray|Re: Pictures of our boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Ray, > > Well, more not foam under the cabin sole really. This so the bilges > are easier to keep clean. It is not a dumb question. If I were > thinking of going to a higher latitude I might consider it or > fitting easily removable insulation. > > Regards, > Ted Thanks Ted - this indeed does make sense to me. I appreciate your reply!| 15528|15528|2007-11-15 08:46:40|Tom|inspection hatch|Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in footwell? sure would make life easyer for maintenance. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15529|15525|2007-11-15 12:20:46|brentswain38|Re: plans etc for these boats|I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are you interested in? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > | 15530|15499|2007-11-15 12:23:10|brentswain38|Re: Question|The bulwark is just an extension of the hull plate. There is no need to add anything. Just set the deck 100mm lower than the top of the bulwark pipe.This is clear on the drawings and in the video. Brent Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > Ok Brent, > in the mean while another couple of questions. > I suppose that the top of the big plate that you use for the half > shell (which is a straight line), once curved, takes the right sheer. > Is that true? > Then, does the bulwark includes the washboard or I have to add it? > And if the washboard is included how much lower does the deck goes? > > I don't have rudder drowing, shape and dimensions. > > Sorry about my english > > Thanks > alf > > > > Use the flat measurements. Don't worry about the effect of the > > camber. I'll check out the rest when I get back to the boat in a few > > days. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > The distance from the bow tot he leading edge of the twin keels > > is > > > > given on the plate layout drawing. I believe it is around 13 ft 3 > > > > inches, but I'll check it out.. > > > > > > I can't find this distance on the drowing > > > > > > > All the drawings are to scale, so use that scale I gave you, > > when in > > > > doubt. It is a good idea to lay out the deck shapes full size > > to get > > > > the deck patterns. > > > > > > Ok, but the deck drowing has only "flat" measurement. The bow > > > triangle and the deck house have a camber. So, what to do when > > making > > > deck patterns with the real devolop on a flat surface? > > > > > > Just let me be sure if I've got all the drowings. > > > I have: > > > > > > hull patterns > > > boat lines (with curves of areas) > > > deck details (with the self steering drowings) > > > sails (main and genoa) > > > boat profile (with sailing measurument) > > > deck details (the drowing with the wheel house measurement) > > > interiors > > > Total of 7 drowing > > > > > > Thanks > > > alfredo > > > > > > > > > > | 15531|15519|2007-11-15 12:26:06|brentswain38|Re: Bowsprit on a Swain?|One did . It gave him a lee helm so he could only use it downwind. There is not enough room to fit a longer boom without the danger of it hitting the backstay in a chinese gybe. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Has anyone ever added a short bowsprit to a BS36? Would it upset the boat's balance to > increase the J measurement 3 or 4 feet? > It would move the center of effort forward and allow a larger foretriangle. I was thinking of > an aluminum tube A frame sprit and bobstay to support the forestay roller and an inner > stay on a lever for an occassional cutter rigging or stormsail. > I'm next at the marina for a 40' slip. (I've been waiting since Dec 03). Since I'll be paying > for 40' why not use it. > I've rigged for a self tacking jib so a larger one would produce more drive. I also plan a > drifter and have tracked the mast for a spinnaker pole. Lot's of combinations of sail as well > as being able to use a larger 130 or bigger if I want. > Is a 3' sprit on a BS 36 a no go? > | 15532|15518|2007-11-15 12:35:09|brentswain38|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|There is quite a big difference in cost between a 26 and a 31. the difference between a 31 and a 36 is minimal, but the difference between a 36 and a 40 is huge. Sailing close hauled in light winds the difference betweena 31 and a 36 was not all tht great. My best run on my last trip south in my 31 was 175 miles in 24 hours and I was south of Hawaii in 14 days . Had 25 knot following winds that never quit till I hit the doldrums. Comming home , I was 23 days from Hawaii to BC both times , the fist 1000 miles being to windward. There have not been that many 26 footers built so it's hard to get comparisons. The first one I built , the owner listened to a trimaran fanatic brag about going 12 knots to windward, then he sailed out and sailed circles around the tri on all points in 15 knots of wind. Being smaller the 26 is more sensitive to loading. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi Marti > > I am not 100% positive but I think Brent says the difference in cost > between the 26 and 31 is minimal but the difference in space is > huge. I've been on board of both of, Winston's daughters' BS26 > (sorry can't remeber her name at this moment) and Brent's 31. I > would get the 31 if it were up to me. Brent's boat seems way bigger > than the 26 but that might be partially due to his open layout. ala > PS 31's. ie. no full bulkheads. > > Hope this helps, > Rowland > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mllmag" wrote: > > > > Hello, > > I have been a lurker sometime, and I have bought Brent's book and > the > > plans for the BS26. Does anybody know what the displacement of the > 26 > > and 31 in the empty (just hull, ballast, rig, rudder. Not even > > interior if possible. Or please specify in what condition the boat > was > > when you measured it, and in the fully loaded condition are? (let's > > say until she begins to be unsafe,or like when the ability to sail > > close to the wind is greatly diminished. Or I can just take the > > displacement figures from Brent's plans, assuming they are the > maximum > > weight the boat is designed for). And the expected typical daily > run > > of both of them? (from posts in the group it seems like the 31 > > typically can do between 120-160 miles per day, weather permitting. > > But I can not find any reference for the 26. Maybe 90-120 miles per > > day would be a close one, in your opinion?) And if you have any > idea > > on the difference in cost one can expect for building oneself the > bare > > hull, rig (optionally, since it depends on the type of rig. I > would go > > for steel or else wood mast, and galvanized shrouds), rudder, > ballast, > > and paint between the two (I know there is much more costs in a > boat > > besides that, but that is greatly dependable on tastes, and this > would > > give me a rough idea of what I can afford). > > Well, this is just to have some numbers where to base any decision > > between attempting to build any of the two for sailing for one > person > > (two unlikely) for long term (hopefully). So any help in case > anybody > > in the group knows would be really appreciated. And I guess other > > people might be interested in those too (I can not imagine i am the > > only one... But maybe it is very difficult to know any of the data > I > > am asking, that is why it is seldom asked?). > > Thanks a lot for any help, and I'll keep enjoying reading your > posts... > > > > Marti > > > | 15533|15528|2007-11-15 12:37:42|brentswain38|Re: inspection hatch|Another potentilal source of leaks and corrosion. I try to avoid uneccesary holes in my boat. Tom. My father said the insulating ceramic beads have arrived. Thanks. How much do I owe you , total? What is your postal address again? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in footwell? sure would make life easyer for maintenance. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15534|15534|2007-11-15 12:44:45|SHANE ROTHWELL|Genset Prices....Whoah!|Paul, Brent, Seer et all, Sorry to detract with non boat related stuff but like others, could not help myself... My wife is also Chinese and Paul you are 100% right... only a fool underestimates the Chinese. Like it or not, we are all going to be dragged into the american designed and led financial debacle. Maybe Brent was right all along...Self reliant, NO DEBT. Might be boring & perhaps comparably a bit slower but look at the results... Perhaps a bit of reflection back to say August 1929 compared to November of that same year...or August 1979 compared to November 1981. See any pattern? Suck em in with low low interest rates till the masses are in debt up to their eyeballs, then pull the rug out from out from under their feet. Who wins, the bankers of course. So dump the debt lads, ANY way you can or your "friendly" banker is going to feed you select parts of your anatomy (think midbody, forward, exterior to torso) as this one is going to make the previous banker designed events, like the 30's, look like a sunday school tea party. In conclusion... Why do bankers wear suck tight collars? So their foreskin doesen't creep up and completely cover their head....they teach that in banker school you know. Cheers, Shane ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com| 15535|15507|2007-11-15 13:15:44|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|If you want steel in long legths look for a supplier who decoils their stock.There's one in york.Ask your local narrowboat builder,although they will mostly be dealing in thicker steel than used for Origami cheers Andy Airey(Worksop,Notts) Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15536|15507|2007-11-15 13:19:12|colin edley|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Thanks, I'll give it a go, I dont suppose you know the name of the narrow boat builder do you? ANDREW AIREY wrote: If you want steel in long legths look for a supplier who decoils their stock.There's one in york.Ask your local narrowboat builder,although they will mostly be dealing in thicker steel than used for Origami cheers Andy Airey(Worksop,Notts) Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15537|15507|2007-11-15 13:21:56|colin edley|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Thanks, I'm good for blasting I got a set of plans for a blasting setup online. polaris041 wrote: Just keep asking; I was constantly told that the biggest profile cutting bed in my city was 3x12 meters. Kept asking and closer than 4kms I found a bed 3.5 x 25 meters, charge $6/min and cut 2.4m per minute with no set up charge. It's there if you just keep asking. Found a sand blaster even closer with a booth 15x8m who will blast my half hulls and inorganic zinc spray for $11.00/sq m. So don't give up. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Tried most of the above, I think the best avenue is going to be asking tank makers. > > polaris041 wrote: Try finding out who made the tanks, ask them where the steel came > from. > Try a google 'Steel suppliers UK'. Ring the most likely a few times > so you get to speak to different people. Often 'clerks' don't extend > them selves for casual callers. > Find some steel fabricators in your area, go ask them who can supply > what you want. > It is there,as you are aware, not everything comes from china yet in > bubble wrap. > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley > wrote: > > > > Thanks for that, I've seen a couple of attempts with plates welded > together and I'd rather do it from full sheets. > > I know somebody must supply the dimensions in england I need as I > see water tanks etc made from sheet in the dimensions I could use. > > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: - > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cedley1969" > > wrote: > > > > > > I cannot find a UK supplier of steel of the size needed for a > 36' > > hull. > > > Anyone got any idea where to go? > > > > > > > Robert Smith of Birkenhead may have some. When I bought mine they > had > > just run out of 5mm x 2500 x 1200 sheets and were not geting any > more, > > but they might have some now. I bought 6000 long sheets and > welded > > them together. Avoid this if you can as I found it difficult to > get > > the weld smooth without distortion and it shows on the completed > hull. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good > this month. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15538|15538|2007-11-15 13:24:06|cedley1969|Multimachine, a lathe/milling whatever machine built from scrap.|Another yahoo forum with free plans and advice, also links to a couple of other sites including large scale home made sand blasting sets. http://opensourcemachine.org/| 15539|15528|2007-11-15 16:16:32|seeratlas|Re: ceramic beads in the paint|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another potentilal source of leaks and corrosion. I try to avoid > uneccesary holes in my boat. > Tom. My father said the insulating ceramic beads have arrived. > Thanks. How much do I owe you , total? > What is your postal address again? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in footwell? > sure would make life easyer for maintenance. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15540|15528|2007-11-15 16:24:01|seeratlas|Re: ceramic beads in the paint|Brent , could you do an experiment with your beads in the paint thing? if you're going to get a block of similar weather, some before and after metal temps would be helpful and informative for all of us I think. i've got to do something about this flush deck of mine as it gets REALLY hot LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another potentilal source of leaks and corrosion. I try to avoid > uneccesary holes in my boat. > Tom. My father said the insulating ceramic beads have arrived. > Thanks. How much do I owe you , total? > What is your postal address again? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in footwell? > sure would make life easyer for maintenance. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15541|15534|2007-11-15 16:57:17|seeratlas|Genset Prices....Whoah!|I don't underestimate the chinese. I worked on the normalization with them under nixon. I was a member of the East Asian Strategic Studies Center, a mil/diplo think tank. What I AM saying is that they are *different*, and not just a little. If you recall, not long ago I forecast on this board an agressive action by the US against the Chinese in the financial markets. Simply put the US is currently engaged in an economic war against several countries who are artificially keeping their currencies low in order to unfairly compete in the international markets. If the price of oil in dollars goes up 20 percent, and the US currency falls 20 percent, what's the price of oil? this is a "duh". We did the same thing years ago to the Japanese when they refused to float the yen making it impossible for anyone to compete with their products. That resulted in putting Japan into a full blown recession which took decades to counter. China is FAR more vulnerable, and they, the Chinese know it. Combine this with the attack on chinese products due to a vastly overstated lead problem and you should be able to read between the lines. The Chinese are SCREAMING right now...on deaf ears...everyone is tired of their stonewalling on floating their currency to accurately reflect its true value. If they do not act quickly..the shockwaves of what happens will reverberate throughout the entire pacific basin. As for the american banking system and who runs what, well, that is one helluva complicated and obfuscated set of facts. I meet few college professors that have ever grasped how it works and why, and they purport to teach the subject. sad really. Just let me say that, generally speaking, (there are periodic exceptions but rarely and for a limited period of time) those that control the wealth, control the world, always. They are, however, very good at remaining relatively anonymous, outside of their own circles. If you intend to take a shot and id'ing them and understanding how and why they do what they do, you are not going to "get it" in a matter of hours over beers in a bar...you ARE going to invest a substantial amount of time and effort in study, and re-thinking how you've always thought governments operate. good luck. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Paul, Brent, Seer et all, > > Sorry to detract with non boat related stuff but like > others, could not help myself... > > My wife is also Chinese and Paul you are 100% right... > only a fool underestimates the Chinese. > > Like it or not, we are all going to be dragged into > the american designed and led financial debacle. Maybe > Brent was right all along...Self reliant, NO DEBT. > Might be boring & perhaps comparably a bit slower but > look at the results... > > Perhaps a bit of reflection back to say August 1929 > compared to November of that same year...or August > 1979 compared to November 1981. See any pattern? Suck > em in with low low interest rates till the masses are > in debt up to their eyeballs, then pull the rug out > from out from under their feet. Who wins, the bankers > of course. > > So dump the debt lads, ANY way you can or your > "friendly" banker is going to feed you select parts of > your anatomy (think midbody, forward, exterior to > torso) as this one is going to make the previous > banker designed events, like the 30's, look like a > sunday school tea party. > > In conclusion... > > Why do bankers wear suck tight collars? > So their foreskin doesen't creep up and completely > cover their head....they teach that in banker school > you know. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > | 15542|15528|2007-11-15 18:45:58|brentswain38|Re: ceramic beads in the paint|I'll give it a try, but it's hard to to anything with winter temperatures right now. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent , could you do an experiment with your beads in the paint thing? > if you're going to get a block of similar weather, some before and > after metal temps would be helpful and informative for all of us I > think. i've got to do something about this flush deck of mine as it > gets REALLY hot LOL. > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Another potentilal source of leaks and corrosion. I try to avoid > > uneccesary holes in my boat. > > Tom. My father said the insulating ceramic beads have arrived. > > Thanks. How much do I owe you , total? > > What is your postal address again? > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in footwell? > > sure would make life easyer for maintenance. > > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15543|15525|2007-11-15 20:30:28|phil|Re: plans etc for these boats|helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the plans for this are $200 do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they hull plans..........phil ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are you interested in? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15544|15525|2007-11-15 23:17:25|brentswain38|Re: plans etc for these boats|Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their belongings sure do. Brent origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the plans for this are $200 > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they hull plans..........phil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are you > interested in? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15545|15534|2007-11-15 23:22:51|brentswain38|Genset Prices....Whoah!|Meanwhile ,lets enjoy the cheap disposable tools for the moment and not squander the opportunity to get off the treadmill and out crusing while the gettin is good. An economic collapse of China will however bring our steel prices down a long way.It is costing us far more than we are saving on tools etc. They have benefitted treadmill living far more that they have benefited the freedom seekers. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I don't underestimate the chinese. I worked on the normalization with > them under nixon. I was a member of the East Asian Strategic Studies > Center, a mil/diplo think tank. > > What I AM saying is that they are *different*, and not just a little. > If you recall, not long ago I forecast on this board an agressive > action by the US against the Chinese in the financial markets. Simply > put the US is currently engaged in an economic war against several > countries who are artificially keeping their currencies low in order > to unfairly compete in the international markets. If the price of oil > in dollars goes up 20 percent, and the US currency falls 20 percent, > what's the price of oil? this is a "duh". We did the same thing years > ago to the Japanese when they refused to float the yen making it > impossible for anyone to compete with their products. That resulted > in putting Japan into a full blown recession which took decades to > counter. China is FAR more vulnerable, and they, the Chinese know it. > Combine this with the attack on chinese products due to a vastly > overstated lead problem and you should be able to read between the > lines. The Chinese are SCREAMING right now...on deaf ears...everyone > is tired of their stonewalling on floating their currency to > accurately reflect its true value. If they do not act quickly..the > shockwaves of what happens will reverberate throughout the entire > pacific basin. > > As for the american banking system and who runs what, well, that is > one helluva complicated and obfuscated set of facts. I meet few > college professors that have ever grasped how it works and why, and > they purport to teach the subject. sad really. Just let me say that, > generally speaking, (there are periodic exceptions but rarely and for > a limited period of time) those that control the wealth, control the > world, always. They are, however, very good at remaining relatively > anonymous, outside of their own circles. If you intend to take a shot > and id'ing them and understanding how and why they do what they do, > you are not going to "get it" in a matter of hours over beers in a > bar...you ARE going to invest a substantial amount of time and effort > in study, and re-thinking how you've always thought governments operate. > good luck. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Paul, Brent, Seer et all, > > > > Sorry to detract with non boat related stuff but like > > others, could not help myself... > > > > My wife is also Chinese and Paul you are 100% right... > > only a fool underestimates the Chinese. > > > > Like it or not, we are all going to be dragged into > > the american designed and led financial debacle. Maybe > > Brent was right all along...Self reliant, NO DEBT. > > Might be boring & perhaps comparably a bit slower but > > look at the results... > > > > Perhaps a bit of reflection back to say August 1929 > > compared to November of that same year...or August > > 1979 compared to November 1981. See any pattern? Suck > > em in with low low interest rates till the masses are > > in debt up to their eyeballs, then pull the rug out > > from out from under their feet. Who wins, the bankers > > of course. > > > > So dump the debt lads, ANY way you can or your > > "friendly" banker is going to feed you select parts of > > your anatomy (think midbody, forward, exterior to > > torso) as this one is going to make the previous > > banker designed events, like the 30's, look like a > > sunday school tea party. > > > > In conclusion... > > > > Why do bankers wear suck tight collars? > > So their foreskin doesen't creep up and completely > > cover their head....they teach that in banker school > > you know. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > your favourite sites. Download it now at > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > > | 15546|15518|2007-11-15 23:33:59|kingsknight4life|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > "There is quite a big difference in cost between a 26 and a 31. the > difference between a 31 and a 36 is minimal,.." LOl I guess I was wrong, the 31 and 36 are close in cost NOT the 26 and 31. Rowland| 15547|15525|2007-11-16 05:08:43|phil|Re: plans etc for these boats|hi many thanks for your good honest clear replys..........I am new to this as i am sure you can tell..........rwgards phil in nz ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their belongings sure do. Brent origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the plans for this are $200 > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they hull plans..........phil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are you > interested in? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15548|15507|2007-11-16 05:40:03|sae140|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|I have a friend who builds commercial water and fuel tanks from plate and who operates just a few miles from Scunthorpe where they actually make and roll the damn' stuff. But - his steel arrives (via stockholders) directly from Macedonia at much better prices, so the plates have to be small enough to be conveniently transported by ship/road. I have another friend who makes 60 ft plus barges for a living. His steel arrives in 3 metre (or thereabouts) plates and he simply butt-welds 'em together - it's almost impossible to see the joins, but then he's welding all day, every day. He, and other people keep telling me that it's possible to buy plate steel 'off the roll' to any transportable length - but I've tried without success to source such big plates of steel, despite living within the same county as they actually make and roll it. The only source I found supplies large plates to North Sea platform fabricators and sismilar, and had an inflexible minimum order of 250 tons. During my searches I found stockholders invariably adopted a 'take it or leave it' attitude regarding their stock sizes, and they really couldn't be bothered about an unusually-sized small order. And then the British steel industry complains about it's declining fortunes (!) - or did so until Chinese demand came on-line. I've found UK suppliers extremely negative, so if you should discover a supplier of large plates, I'd be *really* glad to hear of it. One workaround would be to order smaller plates and get a pro to patch 'em together, as it's such a visible area. Another approach might be to contact the MP and Local Press within a steel-manufacturing area, and try to shame one of these giant companies into supplying their product to a small customer - kinda 'human interest' story ... Colin| 15549|15525|2007-11-16 06:13:17|phil|Re: plans etc for these boats|hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it there. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their belongings sure do. Brent origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the plans for this are $200 > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they hull plans..........phil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are you > interested in? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" wrote: > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15550|15525|2007-11-16 08:14:36|Tom|Re: plans etc for these boats|Hello Phil I think the only pictures of the 26 are in the photos allready. There is mine toms bs 26 and dove II and the black hulled one,both of those have been stretched to 28' with pilot house. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it there. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels > ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the > 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up > suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I > think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too > big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their > belongings sure do. > Brent > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big > enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the > plans for this are $200 > > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they > hull plans..........phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are > you > > interested in? > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" > wrote: > > > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release > Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: > 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15551|15507|2007-11-16 08:43:43|colin edley|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|About the same as my experience in Northampton, Corus the steel manufacturer is based in Corby but they aren't interested. I'm a pretty fair welder myself, I'm just concerned that the heat from the welding is going to affect the evenness of the curves when it comes to pulling it together if its made from plates. I'll persevere for the time being in my search. Only other alternative I could think of was to use origami plans in plywood and frame it externally to use as a mould for a fiberglass shell. cheers Colin sae140 wrote: I have a friend who builds commercial water and fuel tanks from plate and who operates just a few miles from Scunthorpe where they actually make and roll the damn' stuff. But - his steel arrives (via stockholders) directly from Macedonia at much better prices, so the plates have to be small enough to be conveniently transported by ship/road. I have another friend who makes 60 ft plus barges for a living. His steel arrives in 3 metre (or thereabouts) plates and he simply butt-welds 'em together - it's almost impossible to see the joins, but then he's welding all day, every day. He, and other people keep telling me that it's possible to buy plate steel 'off the roll' to any transportable length - but I've tried without success to source such big plates of steel, despite living within the same county as they actually make and roll it. The only source I found supplies large plates to North Sea platform fabricators and sismilar, and had an inflexible minimum order of 250 tons. During my searches I found stockholders invariably adopted a 'take it or leave it' attitude regarding their stock sizes, and they really couldn't be bothered about an unusually-sized small order. And then the British steel industry complains about it's declining fortunes (!) - or did so until Chinese demand came on-line. I've found UK suppliers extremely negative, so if you should discover a supplier of large plates, I'd be *really* glad to hear of it. One workaround would be to order smaller plates and get a pro to patch 'em together, as it's such a visible area. Another approach might be to contact the MP and Local Press within a steel-manufacturing area, and try to shame one of these giant companies into supplying their product to a small customer - kinda 'human interest' story ... Colin --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15552|15525|2007-11-16 09:09:31|phil|Re: plans etc for these boats|helo is it a hard boat to build.........is there much in going to 28 feet ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:14 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats Hello Phil I think the only pictures of the 26 are in the photos allready. There is mine toms bs 26 and dove II and the black hulled one,both of those have been stretched to 28' with pilot house. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it there. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels > ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the > 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up > suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I > think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too > big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their > belongings sure do. > Brent > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big > enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the > plans for this are $200 > > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they > hull plans..........phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are > you > > interested in? > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" > wrote: > > > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release > Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: > 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 8:57 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15553|15507|2007-11-16 09:17:03|Tom|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|Building from smaller plates is doable just takes a lot of time. I would recomend if you are , use plasma for the square cuts and mig with shieldiing gas "not flux core" for the welding, finish welding both sides before cutting pattern, Lot less distortion puckering that way than with tourch and stick welding. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "colin edley" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy steel in the UK? > About the same as my experience in Northampton, Corus the steel > manufacturer is based in Corby but they aren't interested. > I'm a pretty fair welder myself, I'm just concerned that the heat from the > welding is going to affect the evenness of the curves when it comes to > pulling it together if its made from plates. > I'll persevere for the time being in my search. Only other alternative I > could think of was to use origami plans in plywood and frame it externally > to use as a mould for a fiberglass shell. > cheers Colin > > > sae140 wrote: I > have a friend who builds commercial water and fuel tanks from plate > and who operates just a few miles from Scunthorpe where they actually > make and roll the damn' stuff. But - his steel arrives (via > stockholders) directly from Macedonia at much better prices, so the > plates have to be small enough to be conveniently transported by > ship/road. > > I have another friend who makes 60 ft plus barges for a living. His > steel arrives in 3 metre (or thereabouts) plates and he simply > butt-welds 'em together - it's almost impossible to see the joins, but > then he's welding all day, every day. > > He, and other people keep telling me that it's possible to buy plate > steel 'off the roll' to any transportable length - but I've tried > without success to source such big plates of steel, despite living > within the same county as they actually make and roll it. The only > source I found supplies large plates to North Sea platform fabricators > and sismilar, and had an inflexible minimum order of 250 tons. > > During my searches I found stockholders invariably adopted a 'take it > or leave it' attitude regarding their stock sizes, and they really > couldn't be bothered about an unusually-sized small order. And then > the British steel industry complains about it's declining fortunes (!) > - or did so until Chinese demand came on-line. > > I've found UK suppliers extremely negative, so if you should discover > a supplier of large plates, I'd be *really* glad to hear of it. > > One workaround would be to order smaller plates and get a pro to patch > 'em together, as it's such a visible area. > > Another approach might be to contact the MP and Local Press within a > steel-manufacturing area, and try to shame one of these giant > companies into supplying their product to a small customer - kinda > 'human interest' story ... > > Colin > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this > month. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15554|15554|2007-11-16 09:41:16|jonathanswef|Steel Suppliers UK|Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it and him driving away... Jonathan.| 15555|15534|2007-11-16 10:32:38|seeratlas|Genset Prices....Whoah!|No argument there. Now is not a bad time to be working on a boat :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Meanwhile ,lets enjoy the cheap disposable tools for the moment and > not squander the opportunity to get off the treadmill and out > crusing while the gettin is good. An economic collapse of China > will however bring our steel prices down a long way.It is costing us > far more than we are saving on tools etc. They have benefitted > treadmill living far more that they have benefited the freedom > seekers. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I don't underestimate the chinese. I worked on the normalization > with > > them under nixon. I was a member of the East Asian Strategic > Studies > > Center, a mil/diplo think tank. > > > > What I AM saying is that they are *different*, and not just a > little. > > If you recall, not long ago I forecast on this board an agressive > > action by the US against the Chinese in the financial markets. > Simply > > put the US is currently engaged in an economic war against several > > countries who are artificially keeping their currencies low in > order > > to unfairly compete in the international markets. If the price of > oil > > in dollars goes up 20 percent, and the US currency falls 20 > percent, > > what's the price of oil? this is a "duh". We did the same thing > years > > ago to the Japanese when they refused to float the yen making it > > impossible for anyone to compete with their products. That > resulted > > in putting Japan into a full blown recession which took decades to > > counter. China is FAR more vulnerable, and they, the Chinese know > it. > > Combine this with the attack on chinese products due to a vastly > > overstated lead problem and you should be able to read between the > > lines. The Chinese are SCREAMING right now...on deaf > ears...everyone > > is tired of their stonewalling on floating their currency to > > accurately reflect its true value. If they do not act quickly..the > > shockwaves of what happens will reverberate throughout the entire > > pacific basin. > > > > As for the american banking system and who runs what, well, that is > > one helluva complicated and obfuscated set of facts. I meet few > > college professors that have ever grasped how it works and why, and > > they purport to teach the subject. sad really. Just let me say > that, > > generally speaking, (there are periodic exceptions but rarely and > for > > a limited period of time) those that control the wealth, control > the > > world, always. They are, however, very good at remaining relatively > > anonymous, outside of their own circles. If you intend to take a > shot > > and id'ing them and understanding how and why they do what they do, > > you are not going to "get it" in a matter of hours over beers in a > > bar...you ARE going to invest a substantial amount of time and > effort > > in study, and re-thinking how you've always thought governments > operate. > > good luck. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Paul, Brent, Seer et all, > > > > > > Sorry to detract with non boat related stuff but like > > > others, could not help myself... > > > > > > My wife is also Chinese and Paul you are 100% right... > > > only a fool underestimates the Chinese. > > > > > > Like it or not, we are all going to be dragged into > > > the american designed and led financial debacle. Maybe > > > Brent was right all along...Self reliant, NO DEBT. > > > Might be boring & perhaps comparably a bit slower but > > > look at the results... > > > > > > Perhaps a bit of reflection back to say August 1929 > > > compared to November of that same year...or August > > > 1979 compared to November 1981. See any pattern? Suck > > > em in with low low interest rates till the masses are > > > in debt up to their eyeballs, then pull the rug out > > > from out from under their feet. Who wins, the bankers > > > of course. > > > > > > So dump the debt lads, ANY way you can or your > > > "friendly" banker is going to feed you select parts of > > > your anatomy (think midbody, forward, exterior to > > > torso) as this one is going to make the previous > > > banker designed events, like the 30's, look like a > > > sunday school tea party. > > > > > > In conclusion... > > > > > > Why do bankers wear suck tight collars? > > > So their foreskin doesen't creep up and completely > > > cover their head....they teach that in banker school > > > you know. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > bookmark > > your favourite sites. Download it now at > > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com > > > > > > | 15556|15528|2007-11-16 10:34:47|seeratlas|Re: ceramic beads in the paint|Understood. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'll give it a try, but it's hard to to anything with winter > temperatures right now. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent , could you do an experiment with your beads in the paint > thing? > > if you're going to get a block of similar weather, some before and > > after metal temps would be helpful and informative for all of us I > > think. i've got to do something about this flush deck of mine as it > > gets REALLY hot LOL. > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another potentilal source of leaks and corrosion. I try to avoid > > > uneccesary holes in my boat. > > > Tom. My father said the insulating ceramic beads have arrived. > > > Thanks. How much do I owe you , total? > > > What is your postal address again? > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Would it be a bad idea to put in a hatch above trans. in > footwell? > > > sure would make life easyer for maintenance. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 15557|15501|2007-11-16 11:13:23|Claude|Re: Pictures of our boat|Ted. How big is your boat? It looks biger than a 36'. Claude --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have posted some pictures of our boat Fly in the photo albums. > Ted > | 15558|15558|2007-11-16 11:32:12|SHANE ROTHWELL|Genset prices... Whoa!|Seer, Yes, the Chinese are different. look at the results "normalization under Nixon" ..read..when you got em by the balls... and that fellow Nixon, such an honest man! But the tables have turned somewhat don't you think "Simply put the US is currently engaged in an economic war against several countries". This is news? I'm sorry I picked up this thread. Lets get back to boats. Shane P.S. Brent is right, enjoy the cheap prices on tools & wait till price of steel comes down --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I don't underestimate the chinese. I worked on the normalization with them under nixon. I was a member of the East Asian Strategic Studies > Center, a mil/diplo think tank. > > What I AM saying is that they are *different*, and not just a little. > If you recall, not long ago I forecast on this board an agressive > action by the US against the Chinese in the financial markets. Simply > put the US is currently engaged in an economic war against several > countries Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 15559|15554|2007-11-16 12:21:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Hi Jonathan, That is how I got my steel off the lorry. Either weld a lug to the bottom sheet or lift the sheets above it with a lever and use a plate clamp, which is what I did. Regards, Ted > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > and him driving away... > Jonathan. > | 15560|15525|2007-11-16 12:23:27|Alex Christie|Re: plans etc for these boats|Apparently the black-hulled 26 footer in the photo albums is actually mis-named, it's a 31! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats Hello Phil I think the only pictures of the 26 are in the photos allready. There is mine toms bs 26 and dove II and the black hulled one,both of those have been stretched to 28' with pilot house. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it there. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels > ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the > 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up > suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I > think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too > big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their > belongings sure do. > Brent > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big > enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the > plans for this are $200 > > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they > hull plans..........phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are > you > > interested in? > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" > wrote: > > > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release > Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: > 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 15/11/2007 9:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15561|15525|2007-11-16 12:37:07|brentswain38|Re: plans etc for these boats|It's easy to build if you stick to the plans and directions in the book. It gets much more difficult if you try re-invent everything. There is not much improveemnt in going to 28 and that involves reinventing things . If you want a bigger boat go for the 31. Where are you? Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > helo is it a hard boat to build.........is there much in going to 28 feet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:14 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > Hello Phil > I think the only pictures of the 26 are in the photos allready. There is > mine toms bs 26 and dove II and the black hulled one,both of those have been > stretched to 28' with pilot house. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "phil" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it there. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels > > ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the > > 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up > > suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I > > think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too > > big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their > > belongings sure do. > > Brent > > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big > > enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the > > plans for this are $200 > > > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they > > hull plans..........phil > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are > > you > > > interested in? > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release > > Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: > > 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 8:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15562|15554|2007-11-16 12:39:00|brentswain38|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|I've been pulling steel of trucks that way for decades. Nothing pioneering bout it. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > and him driving away... > Jonathan. > | 15563|15518|2007-11-16 18:01:30|mllmag|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hello, Thanks for the replies. But is it posible to give some estimates, even if they are very rough? If I had some estimate of load capacity (OK, since that depends on how one does the interior, that's why I asked between bare hull (no interior) and maximum displacement of the boat to sail safely), of how much more expensive the 31 is (no interior, no deck accesories to facilitate estimation. Just hull, ballast, rudder and rig), and what are the typical daily runs one can expect, the decision is so much easier. For example, if the load capacity of the 26 is just 500-700kg, and that of the 31 is 1500-1800Kg (I am just guessing. Always without overloading, which is dangerous in difficult situations), I think I would have to seriously consider building the 31 instead. But if the 26 admits 1000-1200Kg, then unless the price of the 31 were close to that of the 26 (which is not so from what Brent says), then I think the 26 would be the adequate choice for me. If the daily runs one would expect from the 26 are say 70-90 miles, and that of the 31 are 120-150 (generally speaking, in the same average conditions), then I'd feel tempted to try to risk the higher cost and complexity of the 31 even if it takes more time. But if it is 90-120 for the 26 and 120-140 for the 31, I guess I could live with that given the much lower cost of the 26. I know that it seems very few 26have been built, and those kind of estimations are very rare among designers (not so for commercial vessels. Owners always want to know how much cargo and what speed the boat can attain (besides fuel consumption), and they are always estimated carefully in any project, or so I was told). But if one has ever seen both sailing (at the same time, which it is more difficult, or at different times but knowing them a lot) or has entered in both, I guess it would not be impossible to give a very crude estimation. What worries me is that if so few 26 have been built, there might be a reason... So I find it risky to build one only to find it is too compromising in speed and load capacity. My wild guess (and fear) is that overloading them a little, the 26 could go perhaps to 800-900 Kg, and maximum average daily runs of 90-110 miles at most, but the 31 to 1800-2000 Kg and 140-160 miles quite often, so the difference is quite huge. On cost I have no estimation, but somehow I doubt the 26 is really that economical (after all the trouble of learning the ropes of welding, machine usage etc..., cost of equipment, etc...). Much or quite easier to build I suspect though. But they are just wild guesses from seeing similar-sized fibreglass boats. But if to give any figure is simply impossible (maybe it is just impossible to estimate it), then most likely (based on the Pardeys recommendation for instance)I will go for the lower economical cost and ease of construction of the 26, unless I find a sound used 31 boat/hull with ballast at a good price of course... Or if a find a very economical but sound used 26,that would simplify decisions too. But those are unlikely, and building seems the only way to go so far (if I get local authorities approval here in spain...) Thanks a lot, Marti --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is quite a big difference in cost between a 26 and a 31. the > difference between a 31 and a 36 is minimal, but the difference > between a 36 and a 40 is huge. > Sailing close hauled in light winds the difference betweena 31 and > a 36 was not all tht great. > My best run on my last trip south in my 31 was 175 miles in 24 > hours and I was south of Hawaii in 14 days . Had 25 knot following > winds that never quit till I hit the doldrums. Comming home , I was > 23 days from Hawaii to BC both times , the fist 1000 miles being to > windward. > There have not been that many 26 footers built so it's hard to get > comparisons. The first one I built , the owner listened to a > trimaran fanatic brag about going 12 knots to windward, then he > sailed out and sailed circles around the tri on all points in 15 > knots of wind. Being smaller the 26 is more sensitive to loading. > Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > | 15564|15518|2007-11-16 18:38:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|If I could butt in a bit.....if you can afford it, I would go for the 31. In my experience, people are much happier with a bigger boat. It's not just the weight that is a factor, although carrying capacity is very important. Many things don't weigh very much but take up room and you will love the extra room. Even with my 36 I find it cramped at times with all the gear I have on board. Long term cruising demands having many spares and tools if you want to be truly independent. Also, if there is two of you, it may make the difference between sailing with someone or sailing alone.....but that's a whole other subject :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mllmag To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:01:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31 Hello, Thanks for the replies. But is it posible to give some estimates, even if they are very rough? If I had some estimate of load capacity (OK, since that depends on how one does the interior, that's why I asked between bare hull (no interior) and maximum displacement of the boat to sail safely), of how much more expensive the 31 is (no interior, no deck accesories to facilitate estimation. Just hull, ballast, rudder and rig), and what are the typical daily runs one can expect, the decision is so much easier. For example, if the load capacity of the 26 is just 500-700kg, and that of the 31 is 1500-1800Kg (I am just guessing. Always without overloading, which is dangerous in difficult situations), I think I would have to seriously consider building the 31 instead. But if the 26 admits 1000-1200Kg, then unless the price of the 31 were close to that of the 26 (which is not so from what Brent says), then I think the 26 would be the adequate choice for me. If the daily runs one would expect from the 26 are say 70-90 miles, and that of the 31 are 120-150 (generally speaking, in the same average conditions), then I'd feel tempted to try to risk the higher cost and complexity of the 31 even if it takes more time. But if it is 90-120 for the 26 and 120-140 for the 31, I guess I could live with that given the much lower cost of the 26. I know that it seems very few 26have been built, and those kind of estimations are very rare among designers (not so for commercial vessels. Owners always want to know how much cargo and what speed the boat can attain (besides fuel consumption) , and they are always estimated carefully in any project, or so I was told). But if one has ever seen both sailing (at the same time, which it is more difficult, or at different times but knowing them a lot) or has entered in both, I guess it would not be impossible to give a very crude estimation. What worries me is that if so few 26 have been built, there might be a reason... So I find it risky to build one only to find it is too compromising in speed and load capacity. My wild guess (and fear) is that overloading them a little, the 26 could go perhaps to 800-900 Kg, and maximum average daily runs of 90-110 miles at most, but the 31 to 1800-2000 Kg and 140-160 miles quite often, so the difference is quite huge. On cost I have no estimation, but somehow I doubt the 26 is really that economical (after all the trouble of learning the ropes of welding, machine usage etc..., cost of equipment, etc...). Much or quite easier to build I suspect though. But they are just wild guesses from seeing similar-sized fibreglass boats. But if to give any figure is simply impossible (maybe it is just impossible to estimate it), then most likely (based on the Pardeys recommendation for instance)I will go for the lower economical cost and ease of construction of the 26, unless I find a sound used 31 boat/hull with ballast at a good price of course... Or if a find a very economical but sound used 26,that would simplify decisions too. But those are unlikely, and building seems the only way to go so far (if I get local authorities approval here in spain...) Thanks a lot, Marti --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is quite a big difference in cost between a 26 and a 31. the > difference between a 31 and a 36 is minimal, but the difference > between a 36 and a 40 is huge. > Sailing close hauled in light winds the difference betweena 31 and > a 36 was not all tht great. > My best run on my last trip south in my 31 was 175 miles in 24 > hours and I was south of Hawaii in 14 days . Had 25 knot following > winds that never quit till I hit the doldrums. Comming home , I was > 23 days from Hawaii to BC both times , the fist 1000 miles being to > windward. > There have not been that many 26 footers built so it's hard to get > comparisons. The first one I built , the owner listened to a > trimaran fanatic brag about going 12 knots to windward, then he > sailed out and sailed circles around the tri on all points in 15 > knots of wind. Being smaller the 26 is more sensitive to loading. > Brent--- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15565|15525|2007-11-16 19:58:56|Tom|Re: plans etc for these boats|No its not that hard to build and this is one of the quickest ways to build, a lot has to do with your abilities and if you want to or not. I havnt tryed stretching one yet so I cant give any advice on that but if its your first time building one I wouldnt change from the plan As Brent says. Good luck Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > helo is it a hard boat to build.........is there much in going to 28 feet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:14 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > Hello Phil > I think the only pictures of the 26 are in the photos allready. There is > mine toms bs 26 and dove II and the black hulled one,both of those have > been > stretched to 28' with pilot house. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "phil" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > hi if anyone has a picture of a 26.........please post it or is it > there. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:17 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > Plans include the shell( hull decks cabin cockpit,) rig, keels > > ballast, details,sails,etc .I haven't drawn up an interior for the > > 26 as people tend to have their own ideas there, but have drawn up > > suggested interiors for the bigger boats. The 26 would work, but I > > think for a couple you'd be happier in the 31 or 36. The 40 is too > > big.People don't neccesarily take up that much space, but their > > belongings sure do. > > Brent > > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > > > helo i am wanting to build a small yacht that can go offshore big > > enought for two people.....would the 26 footer do the job......the > > plans for this are $200 > > > do the plans include fiting out....cabin etc..........or are they > > hull plans..........phil > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 6:20 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans etc for these boats > > > > > > > > > I have plans for the 26, 31 , 36,and 40 footers. Which one are > > you > > > interested in? > > > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philip878" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am new to this but i would like to try and build a small > > > > yacht is this building method easyer .......who sells the plans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release > > Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: > > 11/15/07 9:34 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: > 11/15/07 8:57 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15566|15554|2007-11-16 21:22:16|phil|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|I am in new zealand LOTS blue water around here.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Suppliers UK I've been pulling steel of trucks that way for decades. Nothing pioneering bout it. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > and him driving away... > Jonathan. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 8:57 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15567|15518|2007-11-16 21:46:42|Tom|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hello Marti I havnt weighed mine yet but estimate to be between 4 to 5000lbs without interior. I dont think anyone can give you a direct awnser on average speeds per day to many varables. If what you are after is load carry and speed the 31 would beat the 26 hands down, tough to beat water line length. Bigest advantage the 26 has is it is trailerable and there is not many steel boats that are. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mllmag" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31 > > Hello, > Thanks for the replies. > But is it posible to give some estimates, even if they are very rough? > If I had some estimate of load capacity (OK, since that depends on > how one does the interior, that's why I asked between bare hull (no > interior) and maximum displacement of the boat to sail safely), of how > much more expensive the 31 is (no interior, no deck accesories to > facilitate estimation. Just hull, ballast, rudder and rig), and what > are the typical daily runs one can expect, the decision is so much > easier. For example, if the load capacity of the 26 is just 500-700kg, > and that of the 31 is 1500-1800Kg (I am just guessing. Always without > overloading, which is dangerous in difficult situations), I think I > would have to seriously consider building the 31 instead. But if the > 26 admits 1000-1200Kg, then unless the price of the 31 were close to > that of the 26 (which is not so from what Brent says), then I think > the 26 would be the adequate choice for me. If the daily runs one > would expect from the 26 are say 70-90 miles, and that of the 31 are > 120-150 (generally speaking, in the same average conditions), then I'd > feel tempted to try to risk the higher cost and complexity of the 31 > even if it takes more time. But if it is 90-120 for the 26 and 120-140 > for the 31, I guess I could live with that given the much lower cost > of the 26. > I know that it seems very few 26have been built, and those kind of > estimations are very rare among designers (not so for commercial > vessels. Owners always want to know how much cargo and what speed the > boat can attain (besides fuel consumption), and they are always > estimated carefully in any project, or so I was told). But if one has > ever seen both sailing (at the same time, which it is more difficult, > or at different times but knowing them a lot) or has entered in both, > I guess it would not be impossible to give a very crude estimation. > What worries me is that if so few 26 have been built, there might be a > reason... So I find it risky to build one only to find it is too > compromising in speed and load capacity. > My wild guess (and fear) is that overloading them a little, the 26 > could go perhaps to 800-900 Kg, and maximum average daily runs of > 90-110 miles at most, but the 31 to 1800-2000 Kg and 140-160 miles > quite often, so the difference is quite huge. On cost I have no > estimation, but somehow I doubt the 26 is really that economical > (after all the trouble of learning the ropes of welding, machine usage > etc..., cost of equipment, etc...). Much or quite easier to build I > suspect though. But they are just wild guesses from seeing > similar-sized fibreglass boats. > But if to give any figure is simply impossible (maybe it is just > impossible to estimate it), then most likely (based on the Pardeys > recommendation for instance)I will go for the lower economical cost > and ease of construction of the 26, unless I find a sound used 31 > boat/hull with ballast at a good price of course... Or if a find a > very economical but sound used 26,that would simplify decisions too. > But those are unlikely, and building seems the only way to go so far > (if I get local authorities approval here in spain...) > Thanks a lot, > Marti > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> There is quite a big difference in cost between a 26 and a 31. the >> difference between a 31 and a 36 is minimal, but the difference >> between a 36 and a 40 is huge. >> Sailing close hauled in light winds the difference betweena 31 and >> a 36 was not all tht great. >> My best run on my last trip south in my 31 was 175 miles in 24 >> hours and I was south of Hawaii in 14 days . Had 25 knot following >> winds that never quit till I hit the doldrums. Comming home , I was >> 23 days from Hawaii to BC both times , the fist 1000 miles being to >> windward. >> There have not been that many 26 footers built so it's hard to get >> comparisons. The first one I built , the owner listened to a >> trimaran fanatic brag about going 12 knots to windward, then he >> sailed out and sailed circles around the tri on all points in 15 >> knots of wind. Being smaller the 26 is more sensitive to loading. >> Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" >> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15568|15568|2007-11-16 22:48:28|Gary Prebble|Alex video on 36' bilge keel launch|Just crossed my mind that I never mentioned that Alex did a short video on the launch of my 36' bilge keeler built by Evan Shaler. There are some good shots on the hull, transport and launch. Good choice of music too Alex... www.youtube.com/seascene| 15569|15507|2007-11-17 02:38:57|sae140|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Building from smaller plates is doable just takes a lot of time. I would > recomend if you are , use plasma for the square cuts and mig with shieldiing > gas "not flux core" for the welding, finish welding both sides before > cutting pattern, Lot less distortion puckering that way than with tourch and > stick welding. > Tom > Hi Tom - the pro's I know do more-or-less just that. The plates arrive with clean edges so minimal initial cutting is required. Big 3-phase MIGs are used giving excellent results. With barges there's never a need to turn plates between welds as both sides can be done with the plate in situ - except for the 10-12mm base plates which are prepped and multi-pass welded from one side only. With Origami, each composite plate would need to be turned-over twice, which would be tricky with a large floppy plate, but certainly not impossible. ASD are a typical major supplier in this area, with maximum stock sizes: 4M x 2M in 4mm and 6M x 2.5M in 5mm. 10M x 2.5M only in 8mm or above. Attaching a Carver clamp and chain to the plate with the truck driving away is common practice, although folks in the office usually enquire whether you have 'adequate handling facilities' when you're ordering. ;^) Colin > > > About the same as my experience in Northampton, Corus the steel > > manufacturer is based in Corby but they aren't interested. > > I'm a pretty fair welder myself, I'm just concerned that the heat from the > > welding is going to affect the evenness of the curves when it comes to > > pulling it together if its made from plates. Hi Colin That's why I suggest using a pro welder - meaning a fully coded guy. Myself, when I weld with stick there's *always* some distortion, and the weld area is never identical to the parent metal - close, but never the same. But the pro's I know can create 'invisible' welds, where once the weld is dressed you'd be pretty pushed to find it, even when subjected to a '90 degree bend' stress test. These guys create welds in which the metal remains uniform right across the weld area, so that any subsequent bending of the plate will not be influenced by the presence of a weld. I remain in awe of anyone who can produce this standard of welding, and am constantly amazed at just how low in the 'skills pecking order' such welders are considered, when compared with similar trades. Colin (the other one)| 15570|15507|2007-11-17 09:04:07|phil|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|hi these boats are made of steel anyone tryed ALUMINIUM if so would that be easyer for you to get...... ----- Original Message ----- From: ANDREW AIREY To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Where to buy steel in the UK? If you want steel in long legths look for a supplier who decoils their stock.There's one in york.Ask your local narrowboat builder,although they will mostly be dealing in thicker steel than used for Origami cheers Andy Airey(Worksop,Notts) Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1132 - Release Date: 11/15/07 9:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15571|15554|2007-11-17 09:18:28|colin edley|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Shouldn't be a problem getting it off, got a jcb in the field I am looking to build the boat in which can lift well over a ton. Just had a look at the website, looks spot on, my mates got his hgv license so worst case I could hire a flatbed for the day. edward_stoneuk wrote: Hi Jonathan, That is how I got my steel off the lorry. Either weld a lug to the bottom sheet or lift the sheets above it with a lever and use a plate clamp, which is what I did. Regards, Ted > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > and him driving away... > Jonathan. > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15572|15568|2007-11-17 12:09:39|Gordon Schnell|Re: Alex video on 36' bilge keel launch|Gary/Alex Gary....Very nice looking boat. You must be a "Proud Father". Your detailing is excellent! How does she sail? Alex..... You really are an artist with that video camera. The video has a very pro feel about it. I suspect you invested quite a few hours in filming and production. Gord Gary Prebble wrote: > > Just crossed my mind that I never mentioned that Alex did a short video > on the launch of my 36' bilge keeler built by Evan Shaler. There are > some good shots on the hull, transport and launch. Good choice of > music too Alex... www.youtube.com/seascene > > | 15573|15501|2007-11-17 15:10:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pictures of our boat|Claude, It is 36' from the transom to the bow roller. Regards, Ted > Ted. How big is your boat? > It looks biger than a 36'. > Claude > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have posted some pictures of our boat Fly in the photo albums. > > Ted > > > | 15574|15507|2007-11-17 17:59:33|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Where to buy steel in the UK?|The thing you have to remember is that British Steel/Corus have been ripping off the home customer for years.I was in the machining business for years - mostly small to medium rough milling and turning,with an occasional dabble in production turning.The nice thing about milling is that it is mostly 'materials supplied'.Turning and fabrication,particularly the latter,involve buying the materials,typically half of the finished product value,and fabrication has the additional disadvantage that anyone with a welding set,saw,and drill press can set up as a fabricator. Example 1 A friend with a forge was put out of business because BSC expected him to pay £280 a ton for steel which they were selling to the Russians for £80 Example 2 A friend who was seriously into production turning hydraulic fittings from leaded mild steel said that he could buy Corus steel in Spain,ship it back to the UK, and still save 14percent over the identical steel bought from Corus in Sheffield,15 miles up the road cheers Andy Airey If you are looking to transport long lengths quite a lot of firms have extendable trailers for Artics,just keep your eyes open on the motorway Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15575|15575|2007-11-17 19:22:23|Kay|Good Deal on Engine?|Hello to all, I'd like your opinion about an engine. We are considering buying an Iveco flatbed truck. Mostly we want its engine - a 1983 220 HP, inline 6, normally aspirated Fiat diesel engine with 50,000 miles on it for $2,900. After using to haul boat materials, we plan to install into our 65 foot sailboat (in the design stage and hopefully soon to begin construction.) Do you think this engine is a good deal? Also, we know nothing about marine transmissions. Where can we find information, and what do we need to look for in a transmission for this size engine? Thanks, Kay in Tulsa www.submarineboat.com| 15576|15518|2007-11-17 19:31:11|mllmag|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hello, Thank you for your responses. According to the hull speed limit formula (1.25*root(LWL in ft) in knots), it gives for the 26 5.9 knots, for the 31 6.4 k, and for the 36 6.8k. So for a 24hr daily run there would be the maximum of 141 miles fo the BS26, 154 miles for the 31, and 164 for the 36. So far it would look not bad for the BS26. But Tom's estimation of a weight of 4000-5000 Lbl for the bare hull of the 26 (with rudder, skeg, keels and ballast I suppose, but without rig), compared to Brent's quoted displacement of 6700 Lbl, gives between 2700-1700 Lbl for interior, rig and load. So I gather the load could go maximum between 1000Lbl to 2000 Lbl (most likely even lower), say 1500 Lbl which is not really that much. Unless the 31 is much more expensive to build than the 26, yes, the 31 seems a safer bet, if only because it is has been more extensively used succesfully. However, I am not sure I could use a BS31 with just a minimal outboard (4-8hp) for maneuvering in port, since avoiding an interior engine is almost a must in my preferences. Still I wonder: Brent mentions somewhere that the BS26 is similar in accomodation space to an Alberg 30. And in Vigor's book "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take you Anywhere", the Alberg 30 is regarded as "Ocean Comfort Level: One or two adults in comfort". So maybe I am wrong in supposing 1500 Lbl is not that much, or in the estimation of that amount. Maybe the difference in cost between the material lists will decide in the end. Thanks a lot, Marti| 15577|15577|2007-11-17 20:39:27|Tom|condensation|Hello All While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15578|15577|2007-11-17 20:52:12|polaris041|Re: condensation|The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any distance off-shore Tom. My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You stated you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that air flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything to do with it. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15579|15577|2007-11-17 21:11:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: condensation|Actually I think it had a lot to do with it. I used to build machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry (high humidity all the time, and swings from day to night) I had a supposedly watertight keyboard that gave me no end of grief with condensation inside. It contained only switches, no heat sources. On the same machine was a control panel, not sealed but had a heat source in the form of a cpu card and power supply. No condensation, no corrosion, no problems. I believe that if the interior of the boat stays few degrees above the outside ambient at all times you will never get any condensation. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any distance off-shore Tom. My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You stated you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that air flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything to do with it. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15580|15554|2007-11-17 21:16:38|peter_d_wiley|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|I don't get it. Don't you guys have general cargo transporters who'll pick up & deliver to your door, and have trucks equipped with Hiab type cranes? I've had a lot of heavy stuff delivered to my place including timber over 6m long, steel sheet to 6.8m for wall cladding, a milling machine weighing nearly 2 tonnes etc. All I do is ring up the carriers and tell them where to pick up & when to deliver. The guys I use can lift 2 tonnes without problems. Best price I've gotten on steel plate so far is from Melbourne and the supplier there said they routinely put the stuff on a pallet type base for ease of transport. Next year project, probably. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Shouldn't be a problem getting it off, got a jcb in the field I am looking to build the boat in which can lift well over a ton. > Just had a look at the website, looks spot on, my mates got his hgv license so worst case I could hire a flatbed for the day. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: Hi Jonathan, > > That is how I got my steel off the lorry. Either weld a lug to the > bottom sheet or lift the sheets above it with a lever and use a plate > clamp, which is what I did. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > > and him driving away... > > Jonathan. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15581|15577|2007-11-17 21:22:57|Tom|Re: condensation|No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying to keep it dry roughing out the interior Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any > distance off-shore Tom. > > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You stated > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that air > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything to > do with it. > > later pol > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15582|15577|2007-11-17 21:36:27|polaris041|Re: condensation|Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between inside and outside your boat with and without the light over night. I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a steel uninsulated hull. Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a noise? later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying to keep it > dry roughing out the interior > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any > > distance off-shore Tom. > > > > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You stated > > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that air > > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything to > > do with it. > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> Hello All > >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation > > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of > > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she > > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > >> Tom > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15583|15518|2007-11-18 00:20:38|Ben Okopnik|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 12:31:05AM -0000, mllmag wrote: > Hello, > Thank you for your responses. > According to the hull speed limit formula (1.25*root(LWL in ft) in > knots), it gives for the 26 5.9 knots, for the 31 6.4 k, and for the > 36 6.8k. So for a 24hr daily run there would be the maximum of 141 > miles fo the BS26, 154 miles for the 31, and 164 for the 36. So far it > would look not bad for the BS26. In all my experience on the ocean, those neat little calculations just don't pan out. E.g., I've seen a 50+' Swan essentially stand still when bucking a head sea and the tail of an incoming tide at Cape May, while a little 28' schooner (and my Ulysses alongside her) breasted those waves at about 3kt. We made it all the way up Delaware Bay and into the C&D Canal by nightfall; the Swan, which I saw in Baltimore a few days later, didn't even make it half-way up that day. LWL didn't matter much for that trip; the ability to carry way through head seas did. I've seen this kind of thing repeated in many times and many places, for a number of different reasons. I'd suggest you try crewing on a couple of boats making passages; that's the best way I know to gain enough knowledge to make this kind of decisions instead of trying to go by the book - which is a great way to go wrong with confidence in this case. :) > I am not sure I could use a > BS31 with just a minimal outboard (4-8hp) for maneuvering in port, > since avoiding an interior engine is almost a must in my preferences. I've seen a 26-footer "powered" with a single stern oar. If all you're trying to do is maneuver in port (for me, the engine on a boat has many more uses than that, but tastes vary...), then an 8HP outboard would be more than sufficient. > Still I wonder: Brent mentions somewhere that the BS26 is similar in > accomodation space to an Alberg 30. And in Vigor's book "Twenty Small > Sailboats to Take you Anywhere", the Alberg 30 is regarded as "Ocean > Comfort Level: One or two adults in comfort". Again, I would _very_ strongly recommend against relying on someone else's opinion in this area. Given the investment in time, effort, learning, and change in lifestyle that a boat represents, you really should figure these things out for yourself - since these factors are purely individual. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15584|15577|2007-11-18 05:01:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: condensation|Hi Tom, When we lived in the humid tropics our house had light bulbs in a ventilated box in the bottom of the wardrobes to keep ones clothes from going musty. It doesn't need much of a temperature difference to stop condensation. Regards, Ted| 15585|15585|2007-11-18 10:17:44|Tom|interior tabs|I was going to weld the tabs for bulkheads and such to the 1"x1' angle iron stringers but I think I will take a simpler aproch, since I have a lot of 10 gage off cuts left I wiil cut strips from that and bend them up in the break, then just through bolt to stinger and plywood. Everything is being bolted together so it can be removed for painting, maint., and such. Im allso keeping everything an 1" from the hull, hoping with insulative paint and air circulation behind keeps things dryer. Time will tell. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15586|15585|2007-11-18 11:27:08|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs|Tom, just a quick question: When you create an extra 1" space behind your paneling (lost space anyway), why do you not use the standard solution of PU-foam? Properly prepared substrate + PU-foam and you have no maintenance or condensation + excellent insulation and sound proofing, compared to "hoping" that paint and air circulation will keep things dry??? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs I was going to weld the tabs for bulkheads and such to the 1"x1' angle iron stringers but I think I will take a simpler aproch, since I have a lot of 10 gage off cuts left I wiil cut strips from that and bend them up in the break, then just through bolt to stinger and plywood. Everything is being bolted together so it can be removed for painting, maint., and such. Im allso keeping everything an 1" from the hull, hoping with insulative paint and air circulation behind keeps things dryer. Time will tell. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15587|15554|2007-11-18 14:23:14|colin edley|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|This is england, if the truck driver has to get out of the cab on site then its not getting delivered, we are the nation of winging poms after all, nobody can be bothered and if you try to do anything on your own you are a nutter. Emigrating soon I think, just got back from driving round the south east usa, nice people, good attitude. peter_d_wiley wrote: I don't get it. Don't you guys have general cargo transporters who'll pick up & deliver to your door, and have trucks equipped with Hiab type cranes? I've had a lot of heavy stuff delivered to my place including timber over 6m long, steel sheet to 6.8m for wall cladding, a milling machine weighing nearly 2 tonnes etc. All I do is ring up the carriers and tell them where to pick up & when to deliver. The guys I use can lift 2 tonnes without problems. Best price I've gotten on steel plate so far is from Melbourne and the supplier there said they routinely put the stuff on a pallet type base for ease of transport. Next year project, probably. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Shouldn't be a problem getting it off, got a jcb in the field I am looking to build the boat in which can lift well over a ton. > Just had a look at the website, looks spot on, my mates got his hgv license so worst case I could hire a flatbed for the day. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: Hi Jonathan, > > That is how I got my steel off the lorry. Either weld a lug to the > bottom sheet or lift the sheets above it with a lever and use a plate > clamp, which is what I did. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They > > supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to > > the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the > > lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering > > spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it > > and him driving away... > > Jonathan. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15588|15518|2007-11-18 16:37:00|seeratlas|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|I'm going to agree with Ben. No offense meant so please don't take this wrong but before building a boat, you might want to spend some time on the water in a variety of other peoples boats. Unless you're enormously wealthy, buying/building, learning, then selling and buying/building again until you finally get the boat you *want* is not a real efficient use of disposable income. From the way you write and the evidence that offers of your mental capacities, it appears to me you have a good 'puter' but a serious lack of data upon which to render a judgment on the 'proper boat for you. There are a lot of books out there about how and what to do in the ocean. A LOT. A few are quite good, the others decreasingly so. In going to sea, you are putting your life and any others with you in jeopardy. Spend some time sailing with people. Hang around the marina's try and meet some people with boats. Many would love to take you out to demonstrate their own prowess :) even those who have no idea whatsoever of what they are doing :) Aside from the fact that different boats have entirely different sailing/provisioning/ *cruising* pros & cons; you will find that your own likes/dislikes, and abilities similarly vary. For instance, you may find the softer more 'mellow' behavior of a steel cruiser in a seaway is well worth trading some light air speed on a calm sea in shallow grp "cruiser/racer" . On the other hand you may find that chutes, asymetricals, 170 gennies etc. are just what your doctor ordered...to each his own, but you have to know before hand what "your own" is.... It would be a real bitch to pour you money, heart and soul into a boat only to find when completed its not what you wanted (though it might very well end up what you THOUGHT you wanted initially. Now I CAN say with some confidence that any Brent boat you might build is going to sail, going to float, and going to get you home alive assuming you did your homework and didn't try to outguess his plans. BUT, I will warn you that unless you want to trailer, there is no way you will ultimately be happier with the 26 than the 31. Boats, especially displacement cruising boats increase in size geometrically, not arithmatically. The 31 is a LOT bigger than the 26, and the 36 substantially bigger than the 31. All other things being equal the 31 will have a better motion at sea, will be faster, than the 26. The same can be said of the 36 vs. the 31. and yes, the Pardys covered a lot of sea miles in a 20 footer. But, it was a "BIG" 20, and a slow one, and I don't recall a whole lot of other peeps signing up for that exercise in *living small*. And when dealing with a couple on board, a good rule of thumb is to get a boat that is big enough such that when she throws something at you, you have a better than even chance of not getting hit. This also applies when building a cabin in Alaska :) hehehehe. Good luck, and go sailing. seer oh, last thing, that theorectical hull speed limit is a crock. I've seen everything from 1.20 to 1.54 used as a multiplier and it really is just a guestimation when you actually get on the water. Hull shape, displacement, prismatic coefficient, there are a ton of different measurements that will give you a much better feel for what your boat will do. Ted Brewer's website will run down the more common ones. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 12:31:05AM -0000, mllmag wrote: > > Hello, > > Thank you for your responses. > > According to the hull speed limit formula (1.25*root(LWL in ft) in > > knots), it gives for the 26 5.9 knots, for the 31 6.4 k, and for the > > 36 6.8k. So for a 24hr daily run there would be the maximum of 141 > > miles fo the BS26, 154 miles for the 31, and 164 for the 36. So far it > > would look not bad for the BS26. > > In all my experience on the ocean, those neat little calculations just > don't pan out. E.g., I've seen a 50+' Swan essentially stand still when > bucking a head sea and the tail of an incoming tide at Cape May, while a > little 28' schooner (and my Ulysses alongside her) breasted those waves > at about 3kt. We made it all the way up Delaware Bay and into the C&D > Canal by nightfall; the Swan, which I saw in Baltimore a few days later, > didn't even make it half-way up that day. LWL didn't matter much for > that trip; the ability to carry way through head seas did. I've seen > this kind of thing repeated in many times and many places, for a number > of different reasons. > > I'd suggest you try crewing on a couple of boats making passages; that's > the best way I know to gain enough knowledge to make this kind of > decisions instead of trying to go by the book - which is a great way to > go wrong with confidence in this case. :) > > > I am not sure I could use a > > BS31 with just a minimal outboard (4-8hp) for maneuvering in port, > > since avoiding an interior engine is almost a must in my preferences. > > I've seen a 26-footer "powered" with a single stern oar. If all you're > trying to do is maneuver in port (for me, the engine on a boat has many > more uses than that, but tastes vary...), then an 8HP outboard would be > more than sufficient. > > > Still I wonder: Brent mentions somewhere that the BS26 is similar in > > accomodation space to an Alberg 30. And in Vigor's book "Twenty Small > > Sailboats to Take you Anywhere", the Alberg 30 is regarded as "Ocean > > Comfort Level: One or two adults in comfort". > > Again, I would _very_ strongly recommend against relying on someone > else's opinion in this area. Given the investment in time, effort, > learning, and change in lifestyle that a boat represents, you really > should figure these things out for yourself - since these factors are > purely individual. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15589|15585|2007-11-18 18:14:15|Tom|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs|Knut Took me a bit to figure out your question, here goes This boat is not getting spray foamed, no paneling or liner above births. ceramic beads mixed in paint the last couple coats, gives a somwhat textured finish. simplicity at its finest. Now weather or not it works is another ? but there is only one way to find out. You have to remember to this is a trailer sailer located in central California Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Knut F Garshol" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs > Tom, > > > > just a quick question: When you create an extra 1" space behind your > paneling (lost space anyway), why do you not use the standard solution of > PU-foam? Properly prepared substrate + PU-foam and you have no maintenance > or condensation + excellent insulation and sound proofing, compared to > "hoping" that paint and air circulation will keep things dry??? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:18 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs > > > > I was going to weld the tabs for bulkheads and such to the 1"x1' angle > iron > stringers but I think I will take a simpler aproch, since I have a lot of > 10 > gage off cuts left I wiil cut strips from that and bend them up in the > break, then just through bolt to stinger and plywood. Everything is being > bolted together so it can be removed for painting, maint., and such. Im > allso keeping everything an 1" from the hull, hoping with insulative paint > and air circulation behind keeps things dryer. Time will tell. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15590|15585|2007-11-18 18:36:57|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs|Tom, thanks for the explanation of something that is of course your choice, but I was a bit curious. I guess, in the case of a trailer-boat and no liner or paneling up the sides (and California climate), you have a fair chance that it works and even the option to do something about it, if not. In any case: Good Luck! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs Knut Took me a bit to figure out your question, here goes This boat is not getting spray foamed, no paneling or liner above births. ceramic beads mixed in paint the last couple coats, gives a somwhat textured finish. simplicity at its finest. Now weather or not it works is another ? but there is only one way to find out. You have to remember to this is a trailer sailer located in central California Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Knut F Garshol" net> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:18 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs > Tom, > > > > just a quick question: When you create an extra 1" space behind your > paneling (lost space anyway), why do you not use the standard solution of > PU-foam? Properly prepared substrate + PU-foam and you have no maintenance > or condensation + excellent insulation and sound proofing, compared to > "hoping" that paint and air circulation will keep things dry??? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:18 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs > > > > I was going to weld the tabs for bulkheads and such to the 1"x1' angle > iron > stringers but I think I will take a simpler aproch, since I have a lot of > 10 > gage off cuts left I wiil cut strips from that and bend them up in the > break, then just through bolt to stinger and plywood. Everything is being > bolted together so it can be removed for painting, maint., and such. Im > allso keeping everything an 1" from the hull, hoping with insulative paint > and air circulation behind keeps things dryer. Time will tell. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15591|15585|2007-11-18 18:56:53|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs|Tom, I think you will be sorry. The foam not only takes care of condensation and keeping the the boat warm in winter. It keeps the boat cool in summer and I imagine central California gets pretty hot. I for one would never consider a steel boat without foam or at least some form of insulation. I do not think that the paint alone will cut it. :-) Tom wrote: > Knut > Took me a bit to figure out your question, here goes This boat is not > getting spray foamed, no paneling or liner above births. ceramic beads mixed > in paint the last couple coats, gives a somwhat textured finish. > simplicity at its finest. Now weather or not it works is another ? but > there is only one way to find out. You have to remember to this is a trailer > sailer located in central California > Tom Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15592|15554|2007-11-18 19:02:08|edward_stoneuk|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Colin, Peter, At work we move a lot of equipment about using wagons with self mounted cranes "HIABs". There was a semi trailer in our yard with a 15 tonne selfmounted crane last week picking up some plant. We have no problem with drivers getting out of their cabs. The problem with unloading a pair of 2.5m x 12m (40') plates or even 6m (20')plates is that they are wobbley when you lift them. The steel supplier's wagon the delivered my steel did not have a self mounted crane, I don't think many do because of the wobbley problem and because most of their customers have fork lifts. When we dragged our steel off I used old car tyres to protect the plate edges as we were unloading on to a rubble surface. That said, using a JCB to drag it off so that you can lift the end up is a good idea as it helps to avoid scoring the plate or damaging the back end of the trailer. Try to avoid the steel slipping back under the tray and ripping off the tailights or you may wish that the driver had stayed in his cab. Regards, Ted| 15593|15554|2007-11-19 01:32:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|I agree about the flexibility of the steel plates but this is an issue if you lift them with a forklift or a crane - you need to deal with it either way. The supplier I talked to said he'd put the plates on a pallet base for ease of handling. Mind you the plates aren't 12m long either so the floppy problem is somewhat reduced. I've had sheets of roofing iron 6.8m long delivered on a pallet type base in the past, and that steel is only 0.4mm thick. The contract drivers here don't mind getting out of the cabs either, but generally it's not a good idea to tell the yard despatcher about some jobs. When I was building my big shed, I had the driver lift all the trusses up and place them straddling the top plate, 4.3m up. Piece of piss with the Hiab but would have been a PITA for me - as I know from a previous building job. I also pay my carriers in cash and I never ask for a receipt. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Colin, Peter, > > At work we move a lot of equipment about using wagons with self > mounted cranes "HIABs". There was a semi trailer in our yard with a > 15 tonne selfmounted crane last week picking up some plant. We have > no problem with drivers getting out of their cabs. The problem with > unloading a pair of 2.5m x 12m (40') plates or even 6m (20')plates > is that they are wobbley when you lift them. The steel supplier's > wagon the delivered my steel did not have a self mounted crane, I > don't think many do because of the wobbley problem and because most > of their customers have fork lifts. When we dragged our steel off I > used old car tyres to protect the plate edges as we were unloading > on to a rubble surface. That said, using a JCB to drag it off so > that you can lift the end up is a good idea as it helps to avoid > scoring the plate or damaging the back end of the trailer. Try to > avoid the steel slipping back under the tray and ripping off the > tailights or you may wish that the driver had stayed in his cab. > > Regards, > Ted > | 15594|15518|2007-11-19 19:03:37|mllmag|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|Hello, Thank you Paul, Tom, Ben, Seer for your replies. No, of course I am not offended for the suggestion of sailing in more boats. Nonetheless, thank you Seer for your asking... I have always found that finding a cruising boat to sail that it is not yours is easier said than done...requiring an ability of personal character, cheekiness or whatever that I probably must not possess... And that's for marina daily sailing. So imagine gaining experience in long term cruising in other people's boats...Besides steel boats are rare in here, even more so in active sailing condition. Although I take your points really seriously since they are true(much better to sail in similar boats rather than to try to ascertain their abilities by dubious technical data, most people find 31 ft boats the minimum size to cruise extensively), they are really not the relevant points. The points are if it is possible to make long trips extensively on the BS26 (not necessarily comfortably for the average cruiser, but by the possibility of carrying enough water, food, spares etc...to be able to do it. Of course the comfort will be much lower. And yet comfort is very relative. For example, for some people the lack of internal engine gives back some kind of comfort that somewhat compensates the obvious inconveniences of its lacking), and a comparison (in cost, speed, cargo capacity) between similar designs differing in size (not between a Swan 50 which probably is of "modern, light" design, and a classic style boat). Of course it is all relative, depending on each circumstance, but if enough people gave their data, I was sure a more or less clear picture would emerge about the possibilities of each boat. Now, from your reponses, it seems it would be neither true nor useful. I'm almost sure the BS boats are great offshore boats. That's why I'm focusing on them on my quest to find a boat and to try to go sailing again. Most likely the 26 is all I could afford (and then at a great cost. No boat is economical enough in my experience. A 20 ft small sailing boat I had once wasn't), but it seems the 31 is a safer bet, if only because there aren't many BS26 sailing around and the contrary is true for the 31. That's a big endorsement in reliability and possibilities of the 31. Sorry for the detour on those matters. I really hope some day I'll be asking you about how should I do this or that during construction/fitting/maintaining of a BS26 or 31 or whatever. And if it turns out not to be the right choice/way of life for me... well that's the big problem I'm trying to solve. But I should sail more in different boats. I need to try that harder, really. Best wishes, Marti| 15595|15595|2007-11-19 19:56:28|Ian and Jean Campbell|Interesting photo of Steel Yacht Rammed off Canary Isles ...|Re: Steel Yacht Rammed off Canary Isles Photo and some discussion availabe by googling the above... from Practical Boat Owner U.K. source: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1635613/an/0/page/1#1635613 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15596|15465|2007-11-20 13:18:33|mark hamill|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Hi: I heard a story years ago about somebody who had decided that a sailboat hull without the keel would be a more efficient shape for a motor vessel. They did some research/consultation as to the size/specs of the most efficient prop for the engine they had and came up with 3 foot diameter. Deciding this was impractical, they ended up with something near 2 foot. Don't know if this is Hooey but just remembered it. Mark H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, I've often wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans sail in the big rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would be damn tough for sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is the draft of a 26 to the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mark hamill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow boats > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered with a > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have gone > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil Bolger > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" > wrote: > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15597|15465|2007-11-20 14:07:29|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|What's his name with the Beowulf series of speedsters has just come out with a big trawler type cruiser based on his sailboat hull. He claims its very successful. Sure is big :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Hi: I heard a story years ago about somebody who had decided that a > sailboat hull without the keel would be a more efficient shape for a > motor vessel. They did some research/consultation as to the > size/specs of the most efficient prop for the engine they had and > came up with 3 foot diameter. Deciding this was impractical, they > ended up with something near 2 foot. Don't know if this is Hooey but > just remembered it. Mark H > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" > wrote: > > > > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, > I've often wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans > sail in the big rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would > be damn tough for sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is > the draft of a 26 to the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: mark hamill > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow > boats > > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered > with a > > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have > gone > > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil > Bolger > > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" > > wrote: > > > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for > a year > > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers > in the > > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: > 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15598|15518|2007-11-20 14:10:49|aaron riis|Re: Load capacity and speed comparison of BS26 and BS31|I had a tough time deciding between the 26 and 31. Life as it always does took unexpected turns and I moved. the 26 being able to be trailered, I was able to keep the project, so I am grateful that I chose the 26. The happiness part of it starts with you, not with the boat. I chose the build a small boat and make the mistakes on that, then one day I may go for a 36. I think that it is worth while to get someone with experience to help you pull together the hull and deck. You can weld up the seems yourself, which is more time consuming. Even the 26 footer is way more work than I expected. Winston told me that it is about 100 hours for every foot of the boat. Of course a hull can be built, painted and launched much more quickly than that. Good luck, Aaron --- mllmag wrote: > Hello, > Thank you Paul, Tom, Ben, Seer for your replies. > No, of course I am not offended for the suggestion > of sailing in more > boats. Nonetheless, thank you Seer for your > asking... > I have always found that finding a cruising boat to > sail that it is > not yours is easier said than done...requiring an > ability of personal > character, cheekiness or whatever that I probably > must not possess... > And that's for marina daily sailing. So imagine > gaining experience in > long term cruising in other people's boats...Besides > steel boats are > rare in here, even more so in active sailing > condition. > Although I take your points really seriously since > they are true(much > better to sail in similar boats rather than to try > to ascertain their > abilities by dubious technical data, most people > find 31 ft boats the > minimum size to cruise extensively), they are really > not the relevant > points. The points are if it is possible to make > long trips > extensively on the BS26 (not necessarily comfortably > for the average > cruiser, but by the possibility of carrying enough > water, food, spares > etc...to be able to do it. Of course the comfort > will be much lower. > And yet comfort is very relative. For example, for > some people the > lack of internal engine gives back some kind of > comfort that somewhat > compensates the obvious inconveniences of its > lacking), and a > comparison (in cost, speed, cargo capacity) between > similar designs > differing in size (not between a Swan 50 which > probably is of "modern, > light" design, and a classic style boat). Of course > it is all > relative, depending on each circumstance, but if > enough people gave > their data, I was sure a more or less clear picture > would emerge about > the possibilities of each boat. Now, from your > reponses, it seems it > would be neither true nor useful. > I'm almost sure the BS boats are great offshore > boats. That's why I'm > focusing on them on my quest to find a boat and to > try to go sailing > again. Most likely the 26 is all I could afford (and > then at a great > cost. No boat is economical enough in my experience. > A 20 ft small > sailing boat I had once wasn't), but it seems the 31 > is a safer bet, > if only because there aren't many BS26 sailing > around and the contrary > is true for the 31. That's a big endorsement in > reliability and > possibilities of the 31. > Sorry for the detour on those matters. I really hope > some day I'll be > asking you about how should I do this or that during > construction/fitting/maintaining of a BS26 or 31 or > whatever. And if > it turns out not to be the right choice/way of life > for me... well > that's the big problem I'm trying to solve. But I > should sail more in > different boats. I need to try that harder, really. > Best wishes, > Marti > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 15599|15465|2007-11-21 00:13:39|Paul Wilson|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Whats his name is Steve Dashew and the boats name is Wind Horse. I saw it when I was in Fiji.....very impressive but you have to have lots of money. I don't think being a millionaire would come close. Money aside, Steve Dashew is one of the few designers who actually uses his own boats offshore and is actually quite down to earth. He has some great ideas. http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_PARADIGM.html Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:07:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails What's his name with the Beowulf series of speedsters has just come out with a big trawler type cruiser based on his sailboat hull. He claims its very successful. Sure is big :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Hi: I heard a story years ago about somebody who had decided that a > sailboat hull without the keel would be a more efficient shape for a > motor vessel. They did some research/consultati on as to the > size/specs of the most efficient prop for the engine they had and > came up with 3 foot diameter. Deciding this was impractical, they > ended up with something near 2 foot. Don't know if this is Hooey but > just remembered it. Mark H > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Wesley Cox" > wrote: > > > > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, > I've often wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans > sail in the big rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would > be damn tough for sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is > the draft of a 26 to the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: mark hamill > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow > boats > > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered > with a > > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have > gone > > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil > Bolger > > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dalebaumann" > > wrote: > > > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for > a year > > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers > in the > > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: > 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15600|15465|2007-11-21 08:53:03|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Wasn't criticizing his money or the size of his boat, just remarking that he was one of those who believes a good trawler type can be built from a sailing hull. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Whats his name is Steve Dashew and the boats name is Wind Horse. I saw it when I was in Fiji.....very impressive but you have to have lots of money. I don't think being a millionaire would come close. Money aside, Steve Dashew is one of the few designers who actually uses his own boats offshore and is actually quite down to earth. He has some great ideas. > > http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_PARADIGM.html > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:07:22 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > What's his name with the Beowulf series of speedsters has just come > out with a big trawler type cruiser based on his sailboat hull. He > claims its very successful. Sure is big :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > Hi: I heard a story years ago about somebody who had decided that a > > sailboat hull without the keel would be a more efficient shape for a > > motor vessel. They did some research/consultati on as to the > > size/specs of the most efficient prop for the engine they had and > > came up with 3 foot diameter. Deciding this was impractical, they > > ended up with something near 2 foot. Don't know if this is Hooey but > > just remembered it. Mark H > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Wesley Cox" > > wrote: > > > > > > Although not as shallow as the boats you describe by any means, > > I've often wondered how a BS 26 would perform sans keels and sans > > sail in the big rivers, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, etc. It would > > be damn tough for sure, but I wonder how stable it would be. What is > > the draft of a 26 to the bottom of the vee of the hull? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: mark hamill > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:59 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 Hull without sails > > > > > > > > > I have done a fair bit of river cruising and have found shallow > > boats > > > to be the best. The best boats I have used so far are powered > > with a > > > Thai dragontail motor or a Go-Devil. With these motors I have > > gone > > > easily through areas that were giving jet boats problems. Phil > > Bolger > > > designs are often very shallow boats and some have cabins. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "dalebaumann" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for > > a year > > > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers > > in the > > > > midwest of U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.29/1124 - Release Date: > > 11/11/2007 10:12 AM > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15601|15601|2007-11-21 12:56:42|mark hamill|Welding Book|For a clear simply written introduction to all forms of welding this book might be of interest to the newbies among us (like myself). "How to Weld Damn Near Anything" MBI Publishing 2004 ISBN 0-7603-1808-5 put out by Discovery Channel. I got it through the library. Any others anyone has found useful?? Markh| 15602|15465|2007-11-21 13:17:43|Paul Wilson|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|Hey Seer, I never thought for a second you were criticizing him. Are you working too hard on your boat? LOL. I just made my comments since he builds boats unlike the boats discussed on this group. I thought you might be drawing me in, however, since I couldn't believe you might not remember his name :). Cheers, Paul Seer wrote: Wasn't criticizing his money or the size of his boat, just remarking that he was one of those who believes a good trawler type can be built from a sailing hull. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Whats his name is Steve Dashew and the boats name is Wind Horse. I saw it when I was in Fiji.....very impressive but you have to have lots of money. I don't think being a millionaire would come close. Money aside, Steve Dashew is one of the few designers who actually uses his own boats offshore and is actually quite down to earth. He has some great ideas. > > http://www.setsail com/dashew/ do_PARADIGM. html > > Cheers, Paul _,___ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15603|15601|2007-11-21 13:29:39|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Welding Book|Thanks Mark. Maybe I won't have to harass members of this group anymore! I noticed on the Amazon page that only 4 pages are devoted to stick welding. Have you found the book helpful for unusual stick welding problems one might face when putting a boat together? Paul > For a clear simply written introduction to all forms of welding this > book might be of interest to the newbies among us (like myself). "How > to Weld Damn Near Anything" MBI Publishing 2004 ISBN 0-7603-1808-5 put > out by Discovery Channel. I got it through the library. > Any others anyone has found useful?? > Markh > > | 15604|15601|2007-11-21 13:33:16|Michael Casling|Re: Welding Book|The welder was at my place last Saturday. He told me about the seven P's of welding. All I remember was preparation. I told him all I needed was the seven numbers of welding, which was his cell number. Anyway the cradle has been modified, and now I start cutting steel for the trailer, keel support and rear extension. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: mark hamill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Book For a clear simply written introduction to all forms of welding this book might be of interest to the newbies among us (like myself). "How to Weld Damn Near Anything" MBI Publishing 2004 ISBN 0-7603-1808-5 put out by Discovery Channel. I got it through the library. Any others anyone has found useful?? Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15605|15465|2007-11-21 14:00:51|seeratlas|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|heheheh :) Paul, between you and Ben I hardly have to google anything any more :) seer oh, speaking of Ben, and for the benefit of the group, took Ben out to try and get him drunk (he's russian you know) so I could pump him for information. Well, that turned out to be a big mistake :) because Ben is "BIG Ben" and then some! We did have one helluva good meal, excellent wine and some pretty good vodka on top of that :) and pretty much closed down the restaurant from what I remember. :) Since then we've had a couple of lunches as well as some seriously good booze on Ulysses, so all is well in St. Augustine. As for my boat, I've got all my tools on board, but am STILL waiting to get into the working part of the yard so I can begin serious work. Most of my time so far has been spent in examing, measuring and thinking about the mods I'm going to make to the boat, oh, and exploring LOL. Yesterday I was climbing around inside one of the fuel tanks...yeah you read it right, "inside" the tank. The Kanter guys are serious believers in being able to inspect their tanks. Access hatches are nuts big as are the tanks. Found the rig designer in Spain and received an email from him that he's going to send me info on how to rig it, as well as developments that occurred subsequent to the construction of my rig. Happy thanksgiving everyone :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Seer, > > I never thought for a second you were criticizing him. Are you working too hard on your boat? LOL. I just made my comments since he builds boats unlike the boats discussed on this group. I thought you might be drawing me in, however, since I couldn't believe you might not remember his name :). > > Cheers, Paul > > Seer wrote: > > Wasn't criticizing his money or the size of his boat, just remarking > that he was one of those who believes a good trawler type can be built > from a sailing hull. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Whats his name is Steve Dashew and the boats name is Wind Horse. I > saw it when I was in Fiji.....very impressive but you have to have > lots of money. I don't think being a millionaire would come close. > Money aside, Steve Dashew is one of the few designers who actually > uses his own boats offshore and is actually quite down to earth. He > has some great ideas. > > > > http://www.setsail com/dashew/ do_PARADIGM. html > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > _,___ > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15606|15585|2007-11-21 21:53:51|Tom|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs|Yep agreed 1/12" or 2" spray foamed would be a better insulation but its a big expense + lining it. Allso my paint sceam is a bit experimental rust bullet over not so perfect serface on the inside and there is no way I would cover that up with foam. If things work out we have the next best alternatives if not then we know fer shere its not worth it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul J. Thompson" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] interior tabs > Tom, > > I think you will be sorry. The foam not only takes care of condensation > and keeping the the boat warm in winter. It keeps the boat cool in > summer and I imagine central California gets pretty hot. > > I for one would never consider a steel boat without foam or at least > some form of insulation. I do not think that the paint alone will cut > it. :-) > > Tom wrote: >> Knut >> Took me a bit to figure out your question, here goes This boat is not >> getting spray foamed, no paneling or liner above births. ceramic beads >> mixed >> in paint the last couple coats, gives a somwhat textured finish. >> simplicity at its finest. Now weather or not it works is another ? but >> there is only one way to find out. You have to remember to this is a >> trailer >> sailer located in central California >> Tom > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15607|15577|2007-11-21 22:06:05|Tom|Re: condensation|Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I think my test of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so good staying dry. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "polaris041" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over night. > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a steel > uninsulated hull. > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a noise? > > later pol > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying to > keep it >> dry roughing out the interior >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "polaris041" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation >> >> >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any >> > distance off-shore Tom. >> > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You > stated >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that > air >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything > to >> > do with it. >> > >> > later pol >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello All >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty > of >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and > she >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15608|15577|2007-11-22 01:20:00|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: condensation|So you have a heater that is 75 to 100 watts so the warmer air will hold more water. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I think my test > of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so good staying > dry. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between > > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over night. > > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a steel > > uninsulated hull. > > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall > > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a noise? > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying to > > keep it > >> dry roughing out the interior > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "polaris041" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > >> > >> > >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any > >> > distance off-shore Tom. > >> > > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You > > stated > >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that > > air > >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything > > to > >> > do with it. > >> > > >> > later pol > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hello All > >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation > >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty > > of > >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and > > she > >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > >> >> Tom > >> >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15609|15577|2007-11-22 06:13:31|phil|Re: condensation|ho paint the inside with fish oil...........it will never rust.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation So you have a heater that is 75 to 100 watts so the warmer air will hold more water. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I think my test > of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so good staying > dry. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "polaris041" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between > > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over night. > > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a steel > > uninsulated hull. > > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall > > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a noise? > > > > later pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying to > > keep it > >> dry roughing out the interior > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "polaris041" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > >> > >> > >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go any > >> > distance off-shore Tom. > >> > > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You > > stated > >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping that > > air > >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had anything > > to > >> > do with it. > >> > > >> > later pol > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hello All > >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation > >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty > > of > >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and > > she > >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > >> >> Tom > >> >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: 11/21/07 10:01 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15610|15610|2007-11-22 10:57:09|s Outdoors1|newbie .............................must see|Hi Friends! Sometimes u just cant predict what ur gonna find in ur mail! Just opened my mail n guess what? voip ! Have fun Guys, i think am gonna love it here, i just hope somebody sends me a mail soon! http://www.hotornots.net/ratemypic/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15611|15554|2007-11-22 12:51:24|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Yes we do have Hiab trucks but the steel suppliers tend to use ordinary flatbeds.Since they are frequently delivering to several customers at once it's not unreasonable for them to expect you to have proper handling facilities such as forktrucks,but these can be hired fairly easily as can the plate handling equipment.If you are building your boat on a farm it is likely that the farmer will have something anyway.If you are arranging your own transport with Hiab it is important to remember that the rated Hiab capacity,as with any form of craneage,is next to the vehicle and the capacity decreases rapidly the further away you go.When I was working on the temporary opera house at Garsington Manor we had to position a 40ton crane with an extension arm to reach over the house to put the roof beams in place and that was only just sufficient to pick up a half ton beam at maximum extension.So you probably want a 5 or 7ton Hiab,not the little 3tonners that the pikeys use.I'm moving a 35ft narrowboat(English canal boat) in a day or so and that overlaps my mates truck by a few feet so probably 30ft is as much as you will get on a Hiab flatback without overhanging the back.Over that it's subject to negotiation or use an extendible Artic cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15612|15612|2007-11-22 13:37:01|knutfgarshol|Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Hi boat owners! I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and the energy required. May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. Happy Thanksgiving! Knut| 15613|15465|2007-11-22 13:43:46|syannopoulos|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|I have been a lurker here for quite a while - i have admired Brent's work, and though I may quibble with a thing or two, his approach makes a lot of sense and I agree with what he says, particularly about resale value. Concerning small power boats: it might help to consider a question: is this boat intended for some serious passages where iffy weather will be met or not? If not, you can get away with a lot - the power plant need not be the most efficient, behavior in a seaway is not that important, etc. If, on the other hand, there is a good chance that you will want to spend some time at sea you should consider the following. The hull shape of a Swain boat looks a bit like the "whaleback" designs Ted Hood built as racing center-boarders in the 60's - these were very good sea boats, fast for their type and were efficient at low speed when under power. Under power with the centerboard raised, however, they would roll your guts out! Actually, Brent's hulls would be better, having a small hard chine to dampen some of the roll. I think that putting on the bilge or twin keels, at least to the depth of the skeg would help a lot, as well as moving ballast lower. William Atkin always believed lower speed powerboats should have some ballast and it will do wonders for reserve stability. As to loading, if you are planning on carrying a lot of fuel, a lot of care has to be taken that as the fuel and stores are loaded and used, the boat will not go out of trim. Small powerboats can be designed for long voyages. Tom Colvin designed a 26+ foot trawler with a range of over 3000 miles, but it takes a lot of care, the engine has to be top notch and for true efficiency, you may want to consider a controllable pitch prop, as on the old Sabb engines. They aren't cheep, however! Finally, consider an auxiliary rig: a try sail will really dampen out the motion, and Bolger points out that a lug sail is not complicated to rig, store, and can get you home if you are in trouble. The mast can be shorter, less expensive, etc. All in all, unless you want to make the effort to create a true voyaging powerboat, Brent's idea that you build the 26 as designed, leaving out those parts like a full mast that you won't need, makes the best sense. Sotos Yannopoulos --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, but you'd want to detail it to take a rig to increase the resale > value later. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dalebaumann" > wrote: > > > > This my first post here but I've been following this forum for a year > > and a half. What I was wondering if you could > > use one of Brent's hulls without sails for cruising the rivers in the > > midwest of U.S. > > > | 15614|15612|2007-11-22 16:21:43|silascrosby|Re: Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Knut which Swain 36 are you looking at ? ( twin-keel? ,aft cockpit?,tall mast?, etc) Steve Millar -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Hi boat owners! > > I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I > would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that > now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and > the energy required. > > May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical > experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under > variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about > advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are > not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features > are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, > overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all > opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. > > I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > Knut > | 15615|15612|2007-11-22 16:41:59|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Steve, I would be interested in your views regardless of such details, even though important details that would influence your opinions. Specifically: Single keel, YES, tall mast, I DON'T KNOW, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?, aft cockpit (or cabin?), NOT SURE. Thanks and regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of silascrosby Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 4:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Knut which Swain 36 are you looking at ? ( twin-keel? ,aft cockpit?,tall mast?, etc) Steve Millar -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Hi boat owners! > > I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I > would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that > now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and > the energy required. > > May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical > experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under > variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about > advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are > not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features > are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, > overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all > opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. > > I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > Knut > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15616|15601|2007-11-22 17:56:28|mark hamill|Re: Welding Book|Paul: The book seems to focus on TIG,MIG,oxyacetylene welding and plasma cutters for airplane and race car projects. The actual section on stick welding is only one written page with 2 pages illustrating making a welding table. I know very little about welding but liked the book because it answered alot of questions i had about equipment, safety and what the different process types can or cannot do. I will scan the stick section and send it to you as a PDF. Markh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, paulcotter@... wrote: > > Thanks Mark. Maybe I won't have to harass members of this group anymore! > > I noticed on the Amazon page that only 4 pages are devoted to stick welding. Have > you found the book helpful for unusual stick welding problems one might face when > putting a boat together? > > Paul > > > > For a clear simply written introduction to all forms of welding this > > book might be of interest to the newbies among us (like myself). "How > > to Weld Damn Near Anything" MBI Publishing 2004 ISBN 0-7603-1808- 5 put > > out by Discovery Channel. I got it through the library. > > Any others anyone has found useful?? > > Markh > > > > > | 15617|15554|2007-11-22 18:56:00|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|I used to operate cranes. An easy way to calculate the size you need. Large cranes mounted on crane carriers are rated at a 10 foot radius from the center of rotation. So a 20 ton crane has a total capacity of 10 feet x 20 tons, or 200 ft/tons. So it will pick 20 tons at a 10 foot radius, but only 200/30 or 6.66 tons at a 30 ft radius. Truck mounted cranes, like Hiabs are usually rated at 4 foot radius, meaning right on the edge of an 8 foot wide truck! However the same rule applies. A 10 ton truck crane has a total capacity of 4 feet x 10 tons or 40 ft/tons. So at a 30 foot radius, say at the end of the bed it will only pick 40ft/tons / 30 ft. or 1.33 tons, or about 2600 lbs. I once arrived at a jobsite where they were setting up a 60 ton crane to pick a 25 ton reactor. I applied this simple rule in my head, and commented to my helper that they were going to have to move the crane to pick the load. About an hour later he came inside and said that they didn't move the crane, they bent the boom over. I thought he was kidding and went outside for a look. Sure enough the stick was bent about 30 degrees! The operator was cussing up a storm, saying they had misled him about the 25 ton weight. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANDREW AIREY" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Suppliers UK > Yes we do have Hiab trucks but the steel suppliers > tend to use ordinary flatbeds.Since they are > frequently delivering to several customers at once > it's not unreasonable for them to expect you to have > proper handling facilities such as forktrucks,but > these can be hired fairly easily as can the plate > handling equipment.If you are building your boat on a > farm it is likely that the farmer will have something > anyway.If you are arranging your own transport with > Hiab it is important to remember that the rated Hiab > capacity,as with any form of craneage,is next to the > vehicle and the capacity decreases rapidly the further > away you go.When I was working on the temporary opera > house at Garsington Manor we had to position a 40ton > crane with an extension arm to reach over the house to > put the roof beams in place and that was only just > sufficient to pick up a half ton beam at maximum > extension.So you probably want a 5 or 7ton Hiab,not > the little 3tonners that the pikeys use.I'm moving a > 35ft narrowboat(English canal boat) in a day or so and > that overlaps my mates truck by a few feet so probably > 30ft is as much as you will get on a Hiab flatback > without overhanging the back.Over that it's subject to > negotiation or use an extendible Artic > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 15618|15568|2007-11-22 21:57:47|Gary Prebble|Re: Alex video on 36' bilge keel launch|Hello Gord... The boat was tested in rough Hecate Straight north end of Vancouver Island. She felt solid and sailed well. Alex is a talent with a camera and production ideas. Hopefully all works out well for him. He would not accept payment for the video. Quite a guy! Regards.. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > > Gary/Alex > Gary....Very nice looking boat. You must be a "Proud Father". Your > detailing is excellent! How does she sail? > > Alex..... You really are an artist with that video camera. The video has > a very pro feel about it. I suspect you invested quite a few hours in > filming and production. > Gord > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > Just crossed my mind that I never mentioned that Alex did a short video > > on the launch of my 36' bilge keeler built by Evan Shaler. There are > > some good shots on the hull, transport and launch. Good choice of > > music too Alex... www.youtube.com/seascene > > > > > | 15619|15465|2007-11-22 22:24:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 26 Hull without sails|On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 07:00:48PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > oh, speaking of Ben, and for the benefit of the group, took Ben out to > try and get him drunk (he's russian you know) so I could pump him for > information. Well, that turned out to be a big mistake :) because Ben > is "BIG Ben" and then some! We did have one helluva good meal, > excellent wine and some pretty good vodka on top of that :) and pretty > much closed down the restaurant from what I remember. :) Since then > we've had a couple of lunches as well as some seriously good booze on > Ulysses, so all is well in St. Augustine. That was a heck of a lot of fun. Seer has some good stories, and has a flair for telling them - which makes the booze go down easier. Oh, and seer - next time you pass by the harbor, take a careful look to the south and just a bit east of me; you'll see a boat that looks like a floating coffin. :) She doesn't have a name anywhere that I could find, but if I'm not mistaken, that's Phil Bolger's "Loose Moose II" - I knew those folks in the Virgin Islands, nice folks. If it's not the LMII, it's another Bolger built to the same design. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15620|15465|2007-11-23 00:23:48|seeratlas|Bolger's Moose|Hmmm, I was out at green cove today and one of the boats out there is a "moose" boat. I'll take a look in the morning :) seer > Oh, and seer - next time you pass by the harbor, take a careful look to > the south and just a bit east of me; you'll see a boat that looks like a > floating coffin. :) She doesn't have a name anywhere that I could find, > but if I'm not mistaken, that's Phil Bolger's "Loose Moose II" - I knew > those folks in the Virgin Islands, nice folks. If it's not the LMII, > it's another Bolger built to the same design. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15621|15577|2007-11-23 04:36:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: condensation|Phil, From memory the original Rustoleum paint was based on fish oil. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > ho paint the inside with fish oil...........it will never rust.......... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > So you have a heater that is 75 to 100 watts so the warmer air will > hold more water. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I think > my test > > of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so good > staying > > dry. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "polaris041" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > > > > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > > > > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between > > > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over > night. > > > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a > steel > > > uninsulated hull. > > > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall > > > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a > noise? > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > > >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying > to > > > keep it > > >> dry roughing out the interior > > >> Tom > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "polaris041" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > >> > > >> > > >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go > any > > >> > distance off-shore Tom. > > >> > > > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You > > > stated > > >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping > that > > > air > > >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had > anything > > > to > > >> > do with it. > > >> > > > >> > later pol > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hello All > > >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep > condinsation > > >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had > plenty > > > of > > >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > > >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and > > > she > > >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > > >> >> Tom > > >> >> > > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: 11/21/07 10:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15622|15465|2007-11-23 08:56:07|ANDREW AIREY|Bolger's Moose|I think that the original LM2 or AS39 was destroyed by lightnining,or,to be more accurate,the lightning took out the anchor chain and she piled up on the rocks,together with a few other plastic boats caught in the same storm.At that she allegedly took a lot less damage than the magic plastics cheers Andy Airey PS I have a set of legal AS39 plans I'm thinking of selling or swopping Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15623|15465|2007-11-23 22:06:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bolger's Moose|On Fri, Nov 23, 2007 at 01:56:04PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > I think that the original LM2 or AS39 was destroyed by > lightnining,or,to be more accurate,the lightning took > out the anchor chain and she piled up on the > rocks,together with a few other plastic boats caught > in the same storm.At that she allegedly took a lot > less damage than the magic plastics I recall that LMII _did_ go on the rocks during one of the hurricanes I experienced in the VIs - Hortense, maybe - but wasn't destroyed. Despite my perception of it (no offense, but I think it's one of the ugliest boats ever), the owners reported that she sailed well - they brought her from France across the Atlantic, encountering a Force 10 on the way - and provided them with plenty of living space and amenities for the length. Since she suited them so well, it would be sad if she was gone. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15624|15568|2007-11-25 05:32:39|Alex Christie|BS31 for sale?|Anyone have info on this boat if still for sale? http://www.boatline.com/boatdetail2995.htm Alex| 15625|15568|2007-11-25 18:56:56|brentswain38|Re: BS31 for sale?|That was Par par, Evan's old boat, possibly still in Australia Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Anyone have info on this boat if still for sale? > > http://www.boatline.com/boatdetail2995.htm > > Alex > | 15626|15626|2007-11-26 18:25:05|seeratlas|Solution for transiting low bridges :) hehehe|http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5807&st=0&start=0 now, that's a wild one. seer| 15627|15627|2007-11-27 09:30:33|Robert|Need advice on mast|I am building the 36 ft sloop. How tall is the mast supposed to be? I remember from the book or plans that it is to 45 ft. I have a 42 foot continuous length of pipe - or "tubing" as my supplier calls it. The tubing only comes in 20 or 40 ft sections, he tells me, so i don't want to order this much more. I have some 6 inch stainless pipe of several feet that I could use on the bottom of the mast for extension upward if needed, would this work? I know I need to isolate the top with the sheaves as watertight from the remainder of the mast. Robert Meade, leesburg FL| 15628|15628|2007-11-27 17:59:18|Tom|Batteries in keel|Hello All After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways wonderd how good that was or safe. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15629|15629|2007-11-27 20:09:47|jfpacuas|Anchor Winch and Welding rod questions|Hi Folks, I notice that some people build the anchor winch with the gear welded to the winch shaft and others have built it with the gear welded to the spool ends (larger center hole in gear and thus, more weld surface). I'm about to put mine together. Any opinions one way or the other (welded to shaft or spool end) would be appreciated. I'm also considering blunting the teeth a bit (1/4" perhaps). Thoughts? Also, I'm about to put in an order for 309 rod. One vendor offers both Lincoln Red Barron and Lincoln BlueMax in 309L. Anyone have a recommendation of one over the other? Thanks Paul| 15630|15627|2007-11-27 20:32:55|Tom|Re: Need advice on mast|Hello Robert I cant tell you how tall it is but if it was me I would go to scrap yard , steel yards and pump outfits to find a rem peice of 6" pipe that matches youre 42' peice and not weld the stainless on the bottom. For the most part welding stainless to mild steel is ok but on the mast section I wouldnt risk it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Need advice on mast >I am building the 36 ft sloop. > How tall is the mast supposed to be? I remember from the book or plans > that it is to 45 ft. I have a 42 foot continuous length of pipe - > or "tubing" as my supplier calls it. The tubing only comes in 20 or 40 > ft sections, he tells me, so i don't want to order this much more. I > have some 6 inch stainless pipe of several feet that I could use on the > bottom of the mast for extension upward if needed, would this work? > I know I need to isolate the top with the sheaves as watertight from > the remainder of the mast. > > Robert Meade, leesburg FL > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15631|15631|2007-11-27 21:09:20|Tom|Gas tanks|Gave up on my own tank, Went to the USCG web site looked up regs on gas tanks and fills and there is no way you can build youre own tank and be legal, for starters steel has to be hot dipped galvanizes or aluminized no other paints or coatings will do. Shock, pressure, and fire test with label from manufacture stating its passed + pressure rating. Oh well orderd a plastic tank 12 gallons and 316 stainless deckfill and vent. Allso checked on batteries and they leave a bit of gray area on the rules as long as they are mounted good and not sealed above they seem to be legal. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15632|15628|2007-11-27 22:08:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Batteries in keel|On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59:12PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had > planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can > get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 > will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need > to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap > the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of > factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways > wonderd how good that was or safe. Hi, Tom - It's not that big of a deal, IMO; I don't think you need to seal batteries at all. The voltage is low enough that the losses are insignificant - and even if water gets in, there's almost zero danger of shock or shorting. As to venting, well, hydrogen is explosive - but there's not that much of it generated (unless you seriously overcharge the batteries, to the point of boiling the electrolyte!), and since it's so light, it escapes through just about any available route. A simple ventilation path should work fine. The main things to be concerned about with batteries are 1) how well they're secured and 2) how easy it is to reach them for service and maintenance. If you cruise, you'll find yourself thinking of batteries the way you do about money: you always want more juice coming in, and learn to be really careful about how you spend it. I've also found that being religious about a maintenance schedule will keep batteries alive far longer than most cruisers manage - and that can be pretty important to a cruising budget. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15633|15631|2007-11-27 23:10:38|brentswain38|Re: Gas tanks|Thank god I have a diesel. Thank god I don't live in the US. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Gave up on my own tank, Went to the USCG web site looked up regs on gas tanks and fills and there is no way you can build youre own tank and be legal, for starters steel has to be hot dipped galvanizes or aluminized no other paints or coatings will do. Shock, pressure, and fire test with label from manufacture stating its passed + pressure rating. Oh well orderd a plastic tank 12 gallons and 316 stainless deckfill and vent. > Allso checked on batteries and they leave a bit of gray area on the rules as long as they are mounted good and not sealed above they seem to be legal. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15634|15577|2007-11-27 23:13:51|brentswain38|Re: condensation|Not until the fish oil evaporates in a couple of weeks or months. You'll have a lot of stray cats to keep you warm and fed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > ho paint the inside with fish oil...........it will never rust.......... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > So you have a heater that is 75 to 100 watts so the warmer air will > hold more water. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I think > my test > > of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so good > staying > > dry. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "polaris041" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > > > > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > > > > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference between > > > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over > night. > > > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in a > steel > > > uninsulated hull. > > > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to fall > > > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make a > noise? > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > > >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just trying > to > > > keep it > > >> dry roughing out the interior > > >> Tom > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "polaris041" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > >> > > >> > > >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to go > any > > >> > distance off-shore Tom. > > >> > > > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. You > > > stated > > >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that keeping > that > > > air > > >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had > anything > > > to > > >> > do with it. > > >> > > > >> > later pol > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hello All > > >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep > condinsation > > >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had > plenty > > > of > > >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all > > >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and > > > she > > >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > > >> >> Tom > > >> >> > > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: 11/21/07 10:01 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15635|15577|2007-11-27 23:16:58|brentswain38|Re: condensation|I never found rustoleum any more effective than marine enamel , in other words, ineffective over any time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Phil, > From memory the original Rustoleum paint was based on fish oil. > Regards, > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > > > ho paint the inside with fish oil...........it will never > rust.......... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:19 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > > > So you have a heater that is 75 to 100 watts so the warmer air > will > > hold more water. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Well I dont have any way to measure the temp defferance so I > think > > my test > > > of dry on wet off is about as sientific as it gets, so far so > good > > staying > > > dry. > > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "polaris041" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:36 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > > > > > > > > Yes I spent a fortune on power cords. > > > > > > > > Tom can you do a little test. Measure the temp difference > between > > > > inside and outside your boat with and without the light over > > night. > > > > I would be surprissed that 60w would make much difference in > a > > steel > > > > uninsulated hull. > > > > Maybe we are boardering on the old question. If a tree was to > fall > > > > over in a forest and no one was there to hear it. Did it make > a > > noise? > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > >> > > > >> No if I leave light off its wet the next mornin . > > > >> I fell in that one with power cord "ha ha" actualy just > trying > > to > > > > keep it > > > >> dry roughing out the interior > > > >> Tom > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: "polaris041" > > > >> To: > > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:52 PM > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > The cost of the power lead will be a killer if you want to > go > > any > > > >> > distance off-shore Tom. > > > >> > > > > >> > My guess is that the 60w globe had nothing to do with it. > You > > > > stated > > > >> > you shut the windows and hatches. Do you think that > keeping > > that > > > > air > > > >> > flow out which was laden with fog (water particals) had > > anything > > > > to > > > >> > do with it. > > > >> > > > > >> > later pol > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" > wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Hello All > > > >> >> While back we were talking about venalation to keep > > condinsation > > > >> > from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had > > plenty > > > > of > > > >> > air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I > have all > > > >> > windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light > bulb and > > > > she > > > >> > stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will > do. > > > >> >> Tom > > > >> >> > > > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > ---------- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: > 11/21/07 10:01 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15636|15627|2007-11-27 23:21:42|brentswain38|Re: Need advice on mast|We Started out with 42 foot masts and as we went higher , people became happier. You want the full 45 feet. Buy the 42 ft piece , then check out other sources for the extra pieces. How far along are you now,Bob? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > I am building the 36 ft sloop. > How tall is the mast supposed to be? I remember from the book or plans > that it is to 45 ft. I have a 42 foot continuous length of pipe - > or "tubing" as my supplier calls it. The tubing only comes in 20 or 40 > ft sections, he tells me, so i don't want to order this much more. I > have some 6 inch stainless pipe of several feet that I could use on the > bottom of the mast for extension upward if needed, would this work? > I know I need to isolate the top with the sheaves as watertight from > the remainder of the mast. > > Robert Meade, leesburg FL > | 15637|15577|2007-11-27 23:25:14|brentswain38|Re: condensation|Karl, my neighbor ,said he once had a shop that was a sheet metal roof with no walls. He said even on clear windy days, it rained condensation inside. You couldn't get better ventilation than that. Relying on ventilation to eliminate condensation simply doesn't work, period. It's wishful thinking. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15638|15577|2007-11-27 23:39:22|Michael Casling|Re: condensation|Ventilation helps but it is not the final answer. We have a barn with three 12 X 12 horse stalls, 12 X 24 for hay and 12 X 24 for tack room and work shop. The horse stalls have four foot wide openings for the horses to get in and out, and the walls do not go all the way to the top. There is lots of air space at either end for the hay area. The aluminum roof drips condensation a few days a year, but there is less in the more open horse stalls. There is no way the barn could get more air unless there were no walls, but I think it would have more condensation in that mode. Some heat helps. I get hardly any condensation in the plastic boat, but that may change when I bring it to the coast. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: condensation Karl, my neighbor ,said he once had a shop that was a sheet metal roof with no walls. He said even on clear windy days, it rained condensation inside. You couldn't get better ventilation than that. Relying on ventilation to eliminate condensation simply doesn't work, period. It's wishful thinking. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > While back we were talking about venalation to keep condinsation from forming, well that dont work on cool foggy days, had plenty of air flow and it was as wet on inside as outside, now I have all windows in close up hatches and run a single 60w light bulb and she stays nice and dry. It amazes me what one light bulb will do. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15639|15628|2007-11-28 10:12:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Batteries in keel|Hi Tom, Batteries aren't sealed in cars & trucks. Hydrogen is lighter than air so is not likely to collect in the bilges like propane. That said I have the battery boxes out of a ships lifeboat and they are sealed and vented. I have experienced mionor exposiions in batteries twice: once when I had a battery on charge on a workbench where I was grinding a mower knife in the vice. The sparks were playing over the battery which expoded blowing a 2½" x 6" triangle out of the casing and spewing acid out over my leg. I ran and jumped in the horse trough in the yard. The second time was when I was trying to get a wire hot enough to light my cigarette by shorting it across a bulldozer battery that had the engine running. That blew the top off one of the filler caps into my face. A sad but true story. I am a slow learner. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways wonderd how good that was or safe. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15640|15577|2007-11-28 10:13:07|khooper_fboats|Re: condensation|--- "brentswain38" wrote: > > Karl, my neighbor ,said he once had a shop that was a sheet metal roof > with no walls. He said even on clear windy days, it rained condensation > inside. You couldn't get better ventilation than that. Did the roof have mildew growth? I bet it didn't. I think maybe what Tom is trying to say is that condensation is not the problem per se.| 15641|15641|2007-11-28 11:19:58|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Batteries in Keel|Hi Tom & Ben, Good Idea to have batteries low 4 ballast of course, and secured, really secured. think worst case scenario (busting loose heavy weight crashing about spraying sulfuric acid...lovely) If they are sealed, then I might agree with Ben. Maybe, but if they are lead acid from which gas, which if you are charging properly is always generated, and remember it's not only corrosive, but highly explosive... And then it's chilly, time for a cuppa, I'll just put the kettle on....Do you fancy sitting on top of that? An easy cheap way of venting battery boxes is with one of those little computer style fans, 12v, cost about $3.00 pushing air into your battery box. then of course a vent tube up to well above H2o line clear of cockpit as you don't wanna breathe it. not as effective as pulling air out but no chance of sparking then for that bang we all want to avoid An exellent book on marine wiring is "living on 12 volts with Ample Power" and Wiring 12 volts with Ample Power" written by & published by, you guessed it, a company called Ample Power in Seattle washington. Makes that dangerous book "12v bible" look like the shit that it is. Cheers, Shane On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59:12PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had > planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can > get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 > will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need > to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap > the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of > factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways > wonderd how good that was or safe. Hi, Tom - It's not that big of a deal, IMO; I don't think you need to seal batteries at all. The voltage is low enough that the losses are insignificant - and even if water gets in, there's almost zero danger of shock or shorting. As to venting, well, hydrogen is explosive - but there's not that much of it generated (unless you seriously overcharge the batteries, to the point of boiling the electrolyte! ), and since it's so light, it escapes through just about any available route. A simple ventilation path should work fine. The main things to be concerned about with batteries are 1) how well they're secured and 2) how easy it is to reach them for service and maintenance. If you cruise, you'll find yourself thinking of batteries the way you do about money: you always want more juice coming in, and learn to be really careful about how you spend it. I've also found that being religious about a maintenance schedule will keep batteries alive far longer than most cruisers manage - and that can be pretty important to a cruising budget. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/ | 15642|15641|2007-11-28 11:34:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Batteries in Keel|On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 11:19:55AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Tom & Ben, > > Good Idea to have batteries low 4 ballast of course, > and secured, really secured. think worst case scenario > (busting loose heavy weight crashing about spraying > sulfuric acid...lovely) > > If they are sealed, then I might agree with Ben. > Maybe, but if they are lead acid from which gas, which > if you are charging properly is always generated, and > remember it's not only corrosive, but highly > explosive... > > And then it's chilly, time for a cuppa, I'll just put > the kettle on....Do you fancy sitting on top of that? Well, I can't disagree - it's definitely better to force-ventilate than not - but I don't think it's that critical, especially if you're not setting that kettle right on top of the batteries. :) Most boats that I've seen don't have any kind of ventilation for their batteries; I'm trying to recall seeing even one, and I can't - and one of the things I used to do when I was in the Caribbean was basic engine repairs for other people, as well as a lot of electrical stuff, so I've seen a lot of engine rooms over time. Oh yeah - I've just recalled a couple. Both of them were power boats, which is why it took me a while to remember (I mostly worked on sailboats.) On the other hand, I did hook up one hell of a big exhaust fan that vents my entire engine compartment a few years back, so maybe I don't have much of a right to say anything. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15643|15628|2007-11-28 12:21:30|mark hamill|Re: Batteries in keel|The Canadian Boat Biulding Standards (not sure if this is the actual title) says the batteries should not be in the living space. We did do that in one company I worked for but they were gel deep cycles. markh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways wonderd how good that was or safe. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15644|15628|2007-11-28 14:44:20|polaris041|Re: Batteries in keel|The danger if your batteries are laed acid is if/when sea water enters the battery due to some flooding of your vessel. The result is the creation of hydrocloric acid ,folowed by the release of chlorine gass; which attacks lung tissue with deadly results. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways wonderd how good that was or safe. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15645|15628|2007-11-28 15:05:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Batteries in keel|On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 07:44:17PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > The danger if your batteries are laed acid is if/when sea water > enters the battery due to some flooding of your vessel. > > The result is the creation of hydrocloric acid ,folowed by the > release of chlorine gass; which attacks lung tissue with deadly > results. Battery electrolyte is already hydrochloric acid and water - no need to create it. It's true that combining HCl and NaCl (salt) will knock off some extra chlorine molecules, but it's a really slow process with the 2-volt cells which make up a typical lead-acid battery - and it's not going to start at all unless the battery caps have been left open or the battery has a crack in it. On the other hand, sticking the bare ends of a 110V AC cord into a glass of salt and water *will* clear your nostrils, really quickly. :))) That might even be useful as a little addition to a security system... although it's likely to damage your sail covers and bleach a number of things you don't want bleached. Chlorine gas is pretty nasty stuff. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15646|15628|2007-11-28 15:26:22|polaris041|Re: Batteries in keel|Well Ben, every lead acid cell I have ever known contains sulphuric acid. But hey I might be wrong. So I bow to your infinite knowledge. But I will still ensure that MY batteries will not be vunerable to ingress of salt water. Period later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 07:44:17PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > > The danger if your batteries are laed acid is if/when sea water > > enters the battery due to some flooding of your vessel. > > > > The result is the creation of hydrocloric acid ,folowed by the > > release of chlorine gass; which attacks lung tissue with deadly > > results. > > Battery electrolyte is already hydrochloric acid and water - no need to > create it. It's true that combining HCl and NaCl (salt) will knock off > some extra chlorine molecules, but it's a really slow process with the > 2-volt cells which make up a typical lead-acid battery - and it's not > going to start at all unless the battery caps have been left open or the > battery has a crack in it. > > On the other hand, sticking the bare ends of a 110V AC cord into a glass > of salt and water *will* clear your nostrils, really quickly. :))) That > might even be useful as a little addition to a security system... > although it's likely to damage your sail covers and bleach a number of > things you don't want bleached. Chlorine gas is pretty nasty stuff. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15647|15628|2007-11-28 16:01:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Batteries in keel|On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 08:26:21PM -0000, polaris041 wrote: > Well Ben, every lead acid cell I have ever known contains sulphuric > acid. > But hey I might be wrong. OK, so I was mistaken in my recall; although HCl batteries do exist, the standard lead-acid uses sulfuric. > So I bow to your infinite knowledge. Gosh, was that an attempt at sarcasm? Let me give you a clue: it failed. Sarcasm requires cleverness to to be anything other than boring. > But I will still ensure that MY batteries will not be vunerable to > ingress of salt water. > Period And there I was, trying *so* hard to stop you. My life is ruined now... pol, I couldn't care less what you do with your batteries. You're perfectly welcome to crumple them until they're all sharp corners and use them as suppositories - I still wouldn't care. My statement, when corrected for the type of acid used, still stands. Meanwhile, I suggest you switch to decaf: the regular stuff is making you so twitchy that you're jumping on people without any cause. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15648|15628|2007-11-28 16:09:32|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Batteries in keel|Hydrogen is a problem to some regulators so you might find that venting the battery to the outside is a requirement,eg UK boat safety scheme on inland waterways.Do the US Coastguard take an interest cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15649|15628|2007-11-28 18:35:43|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Batteries in keel|All lead acid battries have vents even gells. The way they are vented may not be as clear as the old timers with a hole in the top of the cap. All lead acid battries vent Hydrogen even gells. Most countries requier battries to be out in the open in a battrie box or in a sealed box with a water trap on intake and exaust with forced venting if below the waterline. Jon| 15650|15628|2007-11-28 19:34:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Batteries in keel|I had my voltage regulator short out on my big alternator and the only clue I had was the fumes coming off the boiling batteries. It stings the eyes and nose and was bad enough that there was an explosion hazard. I was by myself and about 300 miles offshore so count myself lucky. If the box was vented overboard I would not have had the stinging eyes but probably would have cooked the batteries for good or blown them up. I am not sure what is better. An over-voltage alarm would have been good. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:10:35 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Batteries in keel On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59:12PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had > planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can > get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 > will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need > to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap > the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of > factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways > wonderd how good that was or safe. Hi, Tom - It's not that big of a deal, IMO; I don't think you need to seal batteries at all. The voltage is low enough that the losses are insignificant - and even if water gets in, there's almost zero danger of shock or shorting. As to venting, well, hydrogen is explosive - but there's not that much of it generated (unless you seriously overcharge the batteries, to the point of boiling the electrolyte! ), and since it's so light, it escapes through just about any available route. A simple ventilation path should work fine. The main things to be concerned about with batteries are 1) how well they're secured and 2) how easy it is to reach them for service and maintenance. If you cruise, you'll find yourself thinking of batteries the way you do about money: you always want more juice coming in, and learn to be really careful about how you spend it. I've also found that being religious about a maintenance schedule will keep batteries alive far longer than most cruisers manage - and that can be pretty important to a cruising budget. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15651|15628|2007-11-28 20:07:30|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Batteries in keel|Just a charge meter may have given a clue. For electric powered vehicals you can get meters for batterie charge levals and temp to keep a eye on them. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I had my voltage regulator short out on my big alternator and the only clue I had was the fumes coming off the boiling batteries. It stings the eyes and nose and was bad enough that there was an explosion hazard. I was by myself and about 300 miles offshore so count myself lucky. If the box was vented overboard I would not have had the stinging eyes but probably would have cooked the batteries for good or blown them up. I am not sure what is better. An over-voltage alarm would have been good. > > Cheers, Paul | 15652|15627|2007-11-28 20:22:32|kingsknight4life|Re: Need advice on mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > We Started out with 42 foot masts and as we went higher , people became > happier. You want the full 45 feet. Buy the 42 ft piece , then check > out other sources for the extra pieces. > How far along are you now,Bob? > Brent > Brent or anyone else wo might now the answer, Can you make a mast longer by "splicing" it together somehow? Rowland| 15653|15627|2007-11-28 20:38:21|ian46abc|Re: Need advice on mast|One option is add a mast tabernacle to the deck so that the mast can be lowered without removing all of the stays. A second option is to have the mast welded with either a reinforcing sleeve added to reinforce the extra length, or cut a long V in the mast and splice in the added length. In the past masts and booms were built of pieces riveted together and in the case of a mast I believe that inserts were added. BUT each insert creates a hard spot. Each weld creatyes a soft spot! We have a steel tabernacle on deck with a hefty stainless steel pin as a hinge. The mast rests on a heavy plastic wedge on a steel plate within the tabernackle. The assembly is there because aluminium burns. Well it did burn the original 4 feet from the foot of the mast in the fire that took place before the boat went through 3 ptrviouds owners. I believe the stove ignited the polyurethane foam. We have protected the foam with 3 coast of bathroom paint, the kind that contains mostly minerals and little solvent. ASbove the stove we have polyinide foam, expensive but will not burn even on a 1000 degree F red hot stove burner! Believe me we did gtry it on the stove top with the electric burner on high with the red coils heating the house.| 15654|15627|2007-11-28 20:49:17|Tom|Re: Need advice on mast|Rowland What type of mast? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Need advice on mast > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> We Started out with 42 foot masts and as we went higher , people > became >> happier. You want the full 45 feet. Buy the 42 ft piece , then check >> out other sources for the extra pieces. >> How far along are you now,Bob? >> Brent >> > > Brent or anyone else wo might now the answer, > > Can you make a mast longer by "splicing" it together somehow? > > Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15655|15628|2007-11-28 21:16:38|Tom|Re: Batteries in keel|Ouch! Ted Ive only had one blow up never did figure out why, no shorts no sparks no over charging. had just put it in the truck started it and about 2 minutes latter boom. The way I have the floor in I wouldnt have to worry about the hydrogen gas being trapped in the keel but if the hatches are closed the cabin is sealed. I better rethink this mabee a couple group 24's next to engine would be the best bet, at least they would be vented to the outside. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries in keel Hi Tom, Batteries aren't sealed in cars & trucks. Hydrogen is lighter than air so is not likely to collect in the bilges like propane. That said I have the battery boxes out of a ships lifeboat and they are sealed and vented. I have experienced mionor exposiions in batteries twice: once when I had a battery on charge on a workbench where I was grinding a mower knife in the vice. The sparks were playing over the battery which expoded blowing a 2½" x 6" triangle out of the casing and spewing acid out over my leg. I ran and jumped in the horse trough in the yard. The second time was when I was trying to get a wire hot enough to light my cigarette by shorting it across a bulldozer battery that had the engine running. That blew the top off one of the filler caps into my face. A sad but true story. I am a slow learner. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways wonderd how good that was or safe. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 15656|15627|2007-11-28 22:06:21|Paul Wilson|Re: Need advice on mast|Many masts are spliced. It's no problem and usually the splice is at the spreaders or at the base where there is little bending moment. A piece of the same section is split and squeezed and then slid inside the section. If it is a thick wall, it can be tapped and screwed or holes drilled and spot welded. If it is done right you don't even see the splice so many people may not be aware they may have a spliced mast. Richard Henderson's "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" has a very short write up on it if you can find the book in a library. Also "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design". Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:22:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Need advice on mast --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > We Started out with 42 foot masts and as we went higher , people became > happier. You want the full 45 feet. Buy the 42 ft piece , then check > out other sources for the extra pieces. > How far along are you now,Bob? > Brent > Brent or anyone else wo might now the answer, Can you make a mast longer by "splicing" it together somehow? Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15657|15628|2007-11-28 22:13:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Batteries in keel|Hey Jon, I have a proper voltmeter but it doesn't help when you are sleeping (yes, I was singlehanding) and not looking at it all the time. If your batteries are topped up and you are motoring it may only take about 10 or 15 minutes to start boiling the batteries with a large alternator. The only thiing that would make you aware of over-charging in time is an audible alarm. A overtemp alarm may work but I think an overvolt alarm would warn you first. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:07:29 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries in keel Just a charge meter may have given a clue. For electric powered vehicals you can get meters for batterie charge levals and temp to keep a eye on them. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I had my voltage regulator short out on my big alternator and the only clue I had was the fumes coming off the boiling batteries. It stings the eyes and nose and was bad enough that there was an explosion hazard. I was by myself and about 300 miles offshore so count myself lucky. If the box was vented overboard I would not have had the stinging eyes but probably would have cooked the batteries for good or blown them up. I am not sure what is better. An over-voltage alarm would have been good. > > Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15658|15658|2007-11-29 00:33:49|Tom|Roberts/Swain boat for sale $5K|For those of you who want a hull that is started that you can finish, here is one that has had a couple of notable welders on it. Evan and Brent. http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/492836447.html I just spotted it tonight and thought I'd pass it along. Tom Popp - KA0TP| 15659|15641|2007-11-29 04:38:36|sae140|Re: Batteries in Keel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > An easy cheap way of venting battery boxes is with one > of those little computer style fans, 12v, cost about > $3.00 pushing air into your battery box. then of > course a vent tube up to well above H2o line clear of > cockpit as you don't wanna breathe it. not as > effective as pulling air out but no chance of sparking > then for that bang we all want to avoid > To avoid the 'Big Bang' scenario, you might want to consider fitting a fine mesh wire gauze over any battery compartment vent pipe. Standard spark arrester technology these days. Used on old style open-flame miner's lamps - idea courtesy of Humphry Davy, 1815. (Good ol' Brits ...) Dunno why gauze isn't fitted over automotive battery cells - cost probably. Colin| 15660|15628|2007-11-29 11:40:04|SHANE ROTHWELL|Batteries in keel|Ben, Pol et all For the cost of what, $3-4 for the fan & a bit of tubing (as you will already have the sealed, secured box for the batteries) it's the cheapest insurance I know of, so, not to bash mate, but I'll go for it every time. cost of running them is about $.02 per month = a whole $.25 per year on a/c power so bugger all on 12v as well. The suggestion of putting ss steel mesh (would part of a ss pot scrubber do the job?) on the tube sounds an exellent idea, but I would put it just after the fan which is pushing/forcing/introducing air into the battery box as you want to avoid introducing sparks to the battery boxes when charging ...and charging properly you are ALWAYS producing gas. I'd think also good idea to mount the fan at least a couple maybe 3 feet away from battery box just in case things really fuck up for whatever reason (fan shorts out as it dies after turning faithfully for years), producing a spark that somehow gets downthe tube..... Never seen a battery go but saw the results of a guy grinding over one. not pretty And hey guys, lets all switch to the decaf, altho it was funny as hell, the sharpened suppository bit wasnt' really deserved as, after all, the guy is trying to help and although we might all might not be "joe average", are we not a community of like minded individuals? Cheers, Shane Re: Batteries in Keel Posted by: "Ben Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:34 am (PST) On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 11:19:55AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Tom & Ben, > > Good Idea to have batteries low 4 ballast of course, > and secured, really secured. think worst case scenario > (busting loose heavy weight crashing about spraying > sulfuric acid...lovely) > > If they are sealed, then I might agree with Ben. > Maybe, but if they are lead acid from which gas, which > if you are charging properly is always generated, and > remember it's not only corrosive, but highly > explosive... > > And then it's chilly, time for a cuppa, I'll just put > the kettle on....Do you fancy sitting on top of that? Well, I can't disagree - it's definitely better to force-ventilate than not - but I don't think it's that critical, especially if you're not setting that kettle right on top of the batteries. :) Most boats that I've seen don't have any kind of ventilation for their batteries; I'm trying to recall seeing even one, and I can't - and one of the things I used to do when I was in the Caribbean was basic engine repairs for other people, as well as a lot of electrical stuff, so I've seen a lot of engine rooms over time. Oh yeah - I've just recalled a couple. Both of them were power boats, which is why it took me a while to remember (I mostly worked on sailboats.) On the other hand, I did hook up one hell of a big exhaust fan that vents my entire engine compartment a few years back, so maybe I don't have much of a right to say anything. :) -- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 15661|15628|2007-11-29 12:42:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Batteries in keel|On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 11:40:02AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > And hey guys, lets all switch to the decaf, altho it > was funny as hell, the sharpened suppository bit > wasnt' really deserved as, after all, the guy is > trying to help and although we might all might not be > "joe average", are we not a community of like minded > individuals? Shane, I didn't say that pol was an idiot for suggesting sealed batteries; I simply said that, in my opinion, it wasn't that critical. I'm not sure what it was that he found in that statement that was personally offensive to him, but A) my opinions do not depend on anyone else's pleasure or displeasure, and B) there's no reason for me to put up with his attitude or his lampooning of a simple mistake that I made. A little courtesy goes a long way with me - but sarcasm begets sarcasm. People who enjoy ruffling feathers generally have a bad time with porcupines. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15662|15627|2007-11-29 21:58:55|kingsknight4life|Re: Need advice on mast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Rowland > What type of mast? > Tom >Tom Aluminum.| 15663|15627|2007-11-30 09:26:19|Tom|Re: Need advice on mast|For the aluminum extruded mast Paul about covered it, sleaved, rivit or bolted and epoxy. One thing to look at first is do you have to move the speaders when lengthening, if so all the holes from the old atachment point might be pretty weak. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Need advice on mast > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Rowland >> What type of mast? >> Tom >>Tom > Aluminum. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15664|15664|2007-11-30 09:43:19|edward_stoneuk|Diesel cleaning|With keel diesel tanks one needs to pump out the tank sump to remove the water and crud. Some systems have these pump out pipes connected to electric pumps, water collectors and filters and the cleaned diesel is pumped back to the tank. I think this is a good system as one can clean ones tanks at the flick of a switch and avoid the diesel smells inside the cabin that would occur if one used a mechanical sump pump. Does anyone have know of a suitable pump? Regards, Ted| 15665|15664|2007-11-30 11:17:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel cleaning|On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 02:43:16PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > With keel diesel tanks one needs to pump out the tank sump to remove > the water and crud. Some systems have these pump out pipes connected > to electric pumps, water collectors and filters and the cleaned diesel > is pumped back to the tank. I think this is a good system as one can > clean ones tanks at the flick of a switch and avoid the diesel smells > inside the cabin that would occur if one used a mechanical sump pump. > Does anyone have know of a suitable pump? Fuel pumps at a typical auto parts store are about $20, and I've found them to work relatively well over time. At that price, it's worth keeping a spare around, too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15666|15628|2007-11-30 11:22:54|seeratlas|Re: Batteries in keel|Ok, I did some research on this problem and found that you can either make or purchase special battery cell caps that you can attach aquarium air tubing to and run up and out for venting. Very cheap, easy to run, just tie em down so they don't move around. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I had my voltage regulator short out on my big alternator and the only clue I had was the fumes coming off the boiling batteries. It stings the eyes and nose and was bad enough that there was an explosion hazard. I was by myself and about 300 miles offshore so count myself lucky. If the box was vented overboard I would not have had the stinging eyes but probably would have cooked the batteries for good or blown them up. I am not sure what is better. An over-voltage alarm would have been good. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:10:35 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Batteries in keel > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59:12PM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Hello All > > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had > > planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can > > get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 > > will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need > > to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap > > the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of > > factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways > > wonderd how good that was or safe. > > Hi, Tom - > > It's not that big of a deal, IMO; I don't think you need to seal > batteries at all. The voltage is low enough that the losses are > insignificant - and even if water gets in, there's almost zero danger of > shock or shorting. As to venting, well, hydrogen is explosive - but > there's not that much of it generated (unless you seriously overcharge > the batteries, to the point of boiling the electrolyte! ), and since it's > so light, it escapes through just about any available route. A simple > ventilation path should work fine. > > The main things to be concerned about with batteries are 1) how well > they're secured and 2) how easy it is to reach them for service and > maintenance. If you cruise, you'll find yourself thinking of batteries > the way you do about money: you always want more juice coming in, and > learn to be really careful about how you spend it. I've also found that > being religious about a maintenance schedule will keep batteries alive > far longer than most cruisers manage - and that can be pretty important > to a cruising budget. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better pen pal. > Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15667|15626|2007-11-30 12:39:15|mauro gonzaga|Re: Solution for transiting low bridges :) hehehe|I read several comments about this arrangement, and concern structural stability of the rigging. I remember that, many years ago, for a certain class of boat or as a prerequisite for partecipation to race, the boat was required to withstand 90 deg heeling by pulling the haliyard from top of the mast. I would have serious concern if my boat was not able to pass such test. Same manoever is used to clean and paint the bottom without drydocking. There is another consideration to be done. the test I am talking about is made by pulling the tip of the masts from a fixed point which gives a heeling momentum:This momentum does not reduce boats stability. to this momentum the boat opposes its stability momentum M=D (r-a) sen.alfa. where D=displacement - (r-a) righting arm - cos.alfa is the cosinus of the angle of heeling alfa. In the case of a suspended weight the result is a reduction of the boats stability like a shifting of the weight up to the top of the mast, thus the boat heels for lack of stability (theoretically). It is in the same condition of a ship listed (not heeled) which is the condition of a ship loaded uncorrectly (hygh centre of gravity) or aground (reaction of the ground which is equivalent to relief of weight down at the point of grounding), in which case has negative stability till the angle of listing. A ship listed if attempted to level by moving weight to opposite side will roll to this side listing at a major angle. In other words, if a waive or any other reason had made the boat heel on the opposite side of the water balloons they would have swung on the opposite side making the mast touch the bridge. The skipper of that boat may be is a great seaman but for sure very weak in naval achitecture. Mauro seeratlas wrote: http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5807&st=0&start=0 now, that's a wild one. seer --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15668|15626|2007-11-30 14:34:00|seeratlas|Re: Solution for transiting low bridges :) hehehe|As you can see from the water surface, he's in the intercoastal (or is it 'intracoastal' soooo, fairly calm. Would take a heck of a wave methinks to swing that 2 tons up and over. In any event, he's in there :) and the only one with an 80 foot mast to boot LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I read several comments about this arrangement, and concern structural stability of the rigging. I remember that, many years ago, for a certain class of boat or as a prerequisite for partecipation to race, the boat was required to withstand 90 deg heeling by pulling the haliyard from top of the mast. I would have serious concern if my boat was not able to pass such test. Same manoever is used to clean and paint the bottom without drydocking. There is another consideration to be done. the test I am talking about is made by pulling the tip of the masts from a fixed point which gives a heeling momentum:This momentum does not reduce boats stability. to this momentum the boat opposes its stability momentum > M=D (r-a) sen.alfa. where D=displacement - (r-a) righting arm - cos.alfa is the cosinus of the angle of heeling alfa. > In the case of a suspended weight the result is a reduction of the boats stability like a shifting of the weight up to the top of the mast, thus the boat heels for lack of stability (theoretically). It is in the same condition of a ship listed (not heeled) which is the condition of a ship loaded uncorrectly (hygh centre of gravity) or aground (reaction of the ground which is equivalent to relief of weight down at the point of grounding), in which case has negative stability till the angle of listing. A ship listed if attempted to level by moving weight to opposite side will roll to this side listing at a major angle. In other words, if a waive or any other reason had made the boat heel on the opposite side of the water balloons they would have swung on the opposite side making the mast touch the bridge. The skipper of that boat may be is a great seaman but for sure very weak in naval achitecture. > Mauro > > seeratlas wrote: > http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5807&st=0&start=0 > > now, that's a wild one. > > seer > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15669|15669|2007-11-30 14:35:02|seeratlas|Sanitread, anyone ever see this?|http://www.sanitred.com/metalroof.htm interesting claims on this stuff. anyone ever seen it used? seer| 15670|15641|2007-11-30 15:04:23|Alex Christie|Re: Batteries in Keel|How do they charge batteries in a spacecraft (since 1960's) without going boom? Just a thought that struck me, since it's the ultimate sealed space. Submarines too, while running on diesel at surface, would have still had batteries doing some venting after they submerged (residually). Those two technologies might be places to look for answers. I thought that there are some ventless batteries out there (AGM?), but not sure. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries in Keel Hi Tom & Ben, Good Idea to have batteries low 4 ballast of course, and secured, really secured. think worst case scenario (busting loose heavy weight crashing about spraying sulfuric acid...lovely) If they are sealed, then I might agree with Ben. Maybe, but if they are lead acid from which gas, which if you are charging properly is always generated, and remember it's not only corrosive, but highly explosive... And then it's chilly, time for a cuppa, I'll just put the kettle on....Do you fancy sitting on top of that? An easy cheap way of venting battery boxes is with one of those little computer style fans, 12v, cost about $3.00 pushing air into your battery box. then of course a vent tube up to well above H2o line clear of cockpit as you don't wanna breathe it. not as effective as pulling air out but no chance of sparking then for that bang we all want to avoid An exellent book on marine wiring is "living on 12 volts with Ample Power" and Wiring 12 volts with Ample Power" written by & published by, you guessed it, a company called Ample Power in Seattle washington. Makes that dangerous book "12v bible" look like the shit that it is. Cheers, Shane On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 02:59:12PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All > After getting the lead in and capped I ended up with 8" of room, had > planed on batteries above balast, anyway after looking around I can > get deep cycle marine in a garden tractor size 7-1/2" tall and 4 to 6 > will fit nice, plenty of juice. What I am wondering is do they need > to be sealed up and vented to the outside? If so I'll have to scrap > the idea no room for boxes or vent hoses. I have worked on a lot of > factory boats that had batteries in the cabin and no vents, allways > wonderd how good that was or safe. Hi, Tom - It's not that big of a deal, IMO; I don't think you need to seal batteries at all. The voltage is low enough that the losses are insignificant - and even if water gets in, there's almost zero danger of shock or shorting. As to venting, well, hydrogen is explosive - but there's not that much of it generated (unless you seriously overcharge the batteries, to the point of boiling the electrolyte! ), and since it's so light, it escapes through just about any available route. A simple ventilation path should work fine. The main things to be concerned about with batteries are 1) how well they're secured and 2) how easy it is to reach them for service and maintenance. If you cruise, you'll find yourself thinking of batteries the way you do about money: you always want more juice coming in, and learn to be really careful about how you spend it. I've also found that being religious about a maintenance schedule will keep batteries alive far longer than most cruisers manage - and that can be pretty important to a cruising budget. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.10/1159 - Release Date: 29/11/2007 11:10 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15671|15669|2007-11-30 15:43:42|Wesley Cox|Re: Sanitread, anyone ever see this?|I have to emphasize, I *cannot* atest to this specific product, but I did use something similar on a job once. Who knows, maybe it was the same thing, just a different name. About 1999, I rolled a similar, white, 'liquid rubber', 'rust inhibiting' compound onto a flat roof about 25,000 square feet. It cost $125 for 5 gallons then and the drips of it looked just like those in the "Nail Head" picture on the web site. In the end it was total crap. It went on great and formed an impervious surface, but within 6 months it was peeling everywhere from rubber membrane, corrugated steel and polyurethane foam. It was an attempt by the owner to postpone fixing a leaky roof the right way and so there were all 3 surface types exposed. It adhered equally badly to all of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sanitread, anyone ever see this? http://www.sanitred.com/metalroof.htm interesting claims on this stuff. anyone ever seen it used? seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15672|15669|2007-11-30 18:07:34|mark hamill|Re: Sanitread, anyone ever see this?|Perhaps the company might spring for some samples so we could test them in various places from tropics to alaska--might be fun. Markh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I have to emphasize, I *cannot* atest to this specific product, but I did use something similar on a job once. Who knows, maybe it was the same thing, just a different name. About 1999, I rolled a similar, white, 'liquid rubber', 'rust inhibiting' compound onto a flat roof about 25,000 square feet. It cost $125 for 5 gallons then and the drips of it looked just like those in the "Nail Head" picture on the web site. In the end it was total crap. It went on great and formed an impervious surface, but within 6 months it was peeling everywhere from rubber membrane, corrugated steel and polyurethane foam. It was an attempt by the owner to postpone fixing a leaky roof the right way and so there were all 3 surface types exposed. It adhered equally badly to all of them. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:34 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sanitread, anyone ever see this? > > > http://www.sanitred.com/metalroof.htm > > interesting claims on this stuff. anyone ever seen it used? > seer > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15673|15641|2007-11-30 18:25:01|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Batteries in Keel|In space craft they use fuel cells that give off water not free gas. Power going out of the batterie dosen't give off hydrogen gas and with the battries being used as soon as the charge is compleated it is not a problem. AGM actualy vent just don't spill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > How do they charge batteries in a spacecraft (since 1960's) without going boom? > > Just a thought that struck me, since it's the ultimate sealed space. > > Submarines too, while running on diesel at surface, would have still had batteries doing some venting after they submerged (residually). > > Those two technologies might be places to look for answers. > > I thought that there are some ventless batteries out there (AGM?), but not sure. > > Alex | 15674|15674|2007-11-30 22:30:38|seeratlas|Know ur Knots? :)|http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php useful and fun for teaching the crew as I'm sure all us captains know all of these by heart...heheheh seer| 15675|15627|2007-12-01 02:50:17|brentswain38|Re: Need advice on mast|No problem. They do it al the time. Just put a two foot sleeve in like the steel masts do and weld it thru slots. mak ethe addition on the bottom to keep the weight of the sleeve low. Another option I intend to try is make the joint an 8 to 1 scarf , like I mention in the part on scarfing aluminium flatbar inthe back of my book. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > We Started out with 42 foot masts and as we went higher , people > became > > happier. You want the full 45 feet. Buy the 42 ft piece , then check > > out other sources for the extra pieces. > > How far along are you now,Bob? > > Brent > > > > Brent or anyone else wo might now the answer, > > Can you make a mast longer by "splicing" it together somehow? > > Rowland > | 15676|15641|2007-12-01 13:09:10|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Batteries in Keel|You think they send lead/acid batteries into space? More likely they use a lighter weight rechargeable battery like lithium ion or nickel cadmium or something even more exotic. Money is no object, but weight is. --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15677|15641|2007-12-01 15:42:07|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Batteries in Keel|I have a recollection from somewhere - apologies for being vague - that chlorine generated when seawater got into contact with batteries was regarded as a major hazard in operational submarines in both world wars.As far as hydrogen is concerned I've got a UK narrow canal boat and a 17ft Lysander to commission over the winter and since both may be used on UK inland waters I will have to sort out suitable venting arrangements to comply with the boat safety scheme,although this,basically a hood over the battery and a pipe venting at high level,shouldn't be too difficult to arrange.Are you sure that the US Coastguard doesn't have similar requirements since they seem to be rather more stringent in some other areas than we do - I raised this several posts ago but nobody commented. cheers Andy Airey PS A possible source of high capacity battery cells may be scrap industrial forklift or industrial truck batteries.These supply 24 or 36 volt power but typically are arranged as a collection of individual - and replaceable - 2 volt cells wired together,unlike automotive or leisure batteries where the 2volt cells are combined within the unit Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15678|15678|2007-12-01 15:50:08|andyairey|Hull thickness|Hi All I'm curious about how insurance companies regard the sort of plate thicknesses used in origami construction.ie 3 or 4mm.I've got a friend with a Dutch barge who reckoned that he would be required to overplate or repair anything less than 4mm. cheers Andy Airey| 15679|15641|2007-12-01 16:55:47|Tom|Re: Batteries in Keel|Here is a link to USCG on Batteries this is first page of several http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/electrical/183-420-a.htm Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANDREW AIREY" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Batteries in Keel >I have a recollection from somewhere - apologies for > being vague - that chlorine generated when seawater > got into contact with batteries was regarded as a > major hazard in operational submarines in both world > wars.As far as hydrogen is concerned I've got a UK > narrow canal boat and a 17ft Lysander to commission > over the winter and since both may be used on UK > inland waters I will have to sort out suitable venting > arrangements to comply with the boat safety > scheme,although this,basically a hood over the battery > and a pipe venting at high level,shouldn't be too > difficult to arrange.Are you sure that the US > Coastguard doesn't have similar requirements since > they seem to be rather more stringent in some other > areas than we do - I raised this several posts ago but > nobody commented. > cheers > Andy Airey > PS A possible source of high capacity battery cells > may be scrap industrial forklift or industrial truck > batteries.These supply 24 or 36 volt power but > typically are arranged as a collection of individual - > and replaceable - 2 volt cells wired together,unlike > automotive or leisure batteries where the 2volt cells > are combined within the unit > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15680|15678|2007-12-01 18:30:44|brentswain38|Re: Hull thickness|The plate we use in origami construction is heavier than that often used in traditional construction so insurance companies favour them. A friend built a charter boat to transport Canada specs. The inspectors said they are familiar with origami construction and have no problem with it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "andyairey" wrote: > > Hi All > > I'm curious about how insurance companies regard the sort of plate > thicknesses used in origami construction.ie 3 or 4mm.I've got a friend > with a Dutch barge who reckoned that he would be required to overplate > or repair anything less than 4mm. > cheers > Andy Airey > | 15681|15678|2007-12-01 18:50:43|Tom|Re: Hull thickness|I just got a quote for my 26 and there was no questions asked on type of constuction or thickness, All they want at this point is a value servey and hull ID # Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "andyairey" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Hull thickness > Hi All > > I'm curious about how insurance companies regard the sort of plate > thicknesses used in origami construction.ie 3 or 4mm.I've got a friend > with a Dutch barge who reckoned that he would be required to overplate > or repair anything less than 4mm. > cheers > Andy Airey > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15682|15629|2007-12-02 00:58:52|Aaron Williams|Re: Anchor Winch and Welding rod questions|Paul go with the blue-max jfpacuas wrote: Hi Folks, I notice that some people build the anchor winch with the gear welded to the winch shaft and others have built it with the gear welded to the spool ends (larger center hole in gear and thus, more weld surface). I'm about to put mine together. Any opinions one way or the other (welded to shaft or spool end) would be appreciated. I'm also considering blunting the teeth a bit (1/4" perhaps). Thoughts? Also, I'm about to put in an order for 309 rod. One vendor offers both Lincoln Red Barron and Lincoln BlueMax in 309L. Anyone have a recommendation of one over the other? Thanks Paul --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15683|15678|2007-12-02 05:23:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hull thickness|Hi Andy, What size is your friends barge? Is it a commercial one designed to carry cargo? Origami hull thicknesses tend to be thicker than framed boats of the same size. I have contacted several insurer's in the UK. Some only insure known brands, many don't insure any type of home builds and some are quite happy to insure steel self builds in general. Regards, Ted -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "andyairey" wrote: > > Hi All > > I'm curious about how insurance companies regard the sort of plate > thicknesses used in origami construction.ie 3 or 4mm.I've got a friend > with a Dutch barge who reckoned that he would be required to overplate > or repair anything less than 4mm. > cheers > Andy Airey > | 15684|15629|2007-12-02 13:42:34|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch and Welding rod questions|It doesn't really matter as you will never break the weld anyway altho welding to the spool end thru a larger hole is stronger and helps hold the end fair and prevent it from warping. If I were doing mine again I'd go square for the teeth so I could release it under load ,without having to back it up a bit first. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Paul go with the blue-max > > jfpacuas wrote: Hi Folks, > > I notice that some people build the anchor winch with the gear welded > to the winch shaft and others have built it with the gear welded to the > spool ends (larger center hole in gear and thus, more weld surface). > I'm about to put mine together. Any opinions one way or the other > (welded to shaft or spool end) would be appreciated. > > I'm also considering blunting the teeth a bit (1/4" perhaps). Thoughts? > > Also, I'm about to put in an order for 309 rod. One vendor offers both > Lincoln Red Barron and Lincoln BlueMax in 309L. Anyone have a > recommendation of one over the other? > > Thanks > > Paul > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15685|15678|2007-12-02 13:54:32|brentswain38|Re: Hull thickness|Most home built stel boats I've seen were far better built than most commercially built ones. The poorly built ones took only a minute to recognise. In Canada there were many commercially built boats like the Foulkes, Amazon , and Fehr boats , built of 1/8th inch plate , welded one side only and most of that weld ground off, no paint inside , sprayfoamed over rust and millscale. Many had major inside corrosion fairly quicly. Many had their entire bottoms replaced in only a few short years, yet they command a high price ,solely because they were comercially built, and because of the bondo used to give it a smooth ,shiny fibreglass look . One is far better off with a home built boat, built by a person with intelligence and a personal interest in how the boat does after leaving the yard, ie, his life and that of his family are at stake. Professionaly built often means built down to a low price and thus high profit margin with great experience at scraping every penny off the cost, costs that increase drastically as great numbers are built , costs which are not a factor in a one off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > What size is your friends barge? Is it a commercial one designed to > carry cargo? > > Origami hull thicknesses tend to be thicker than framed boats of the > same size. > > I have contacted several insurer's in the UK. Some only insure known > brands, many don't insure any type of home builds and some are quite > happy to insure steel self builds in general. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "andyairey" wrote: > > > > Hi All > > > > I'm curious about how insurance companies regard the sort of plate > > thicknesses used in origami construction.ie 3 or 4mm.I've got a > friend > > with a Dutch barge who reckoned that he would be required to > overplate > > or repair anything less than 4mm. > > cheers > > Andy Airey > > > | 15686|15678|2007-12-03 08:56:25|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Hull thickness|Het Leven was built in 1910,and is a type known as an Ijsselaak(built on or near the Ijssel,aak form hull)with a Dutch gaff rig.It's last known commercial cargo was 60tons of grain,but at some time after that it was converted for pleasure use and used as a liveaboard and for barge racing.David,the skipper,said that it managed 9knots in a force 7 on the Ijsselmeer when it was being demonstrated to him and he'd never been more frightened in his life - this from a man who'd done his war service on the North Atlantic convoys and in the Med.He'd had HL for about 10 years when I got to know him and had had the hull overhauled in Italy the year before.The original construction would have been 6mm iron and had been overplated in one or two areas.The Italians overplated anything below 4mm -didn't look a particularly big area - and charged him £15k for the priviledge.I've just had 'Canada Goose',our narrow boat,skinned using 6mm plate because the original - 1/4" base and 5/16" sides - was virtually through in places,largely because it had been badly stored out of the water for about 10 years - caveat definitely emptor when you're buying off ebay. Current narrowboat standards are 10/6/4 base/sides/top but the firm who replated CG have just built a 'Dutch Barge' style boat with a 25mm bottom,although the owners specified that.The Dutch seem to have generally used 6mm plate with perhaps 9mm at the turn of the bilge where the wear might have been expected to be greater cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15687|15687|2007-12-03 12:57:13|troller10|Displacement for the 40 swain design|What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. Typical Loaded displacement for same? Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is adequate. 1.5 X displacement/1000 A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, (not sure about the pitch). It did not seem to be overpowered. Anyway, comments? Thanks, BH| 15688|10771|2007-12-03 20:32:51|Tom|BS 26 progress|Hello all Recieved my legal gas tank,fills, and vent and played around for hours trying to figure where to mount them legal like and keep quarter births in the picture, about the only way I can come up with it working is in the lazerett whitch would add about 300lbs at the transom, not good + you would have a heck of a time getting to the stuffing box for maintinance. Well like its said everything is a compremise . I decided to go back to the original plan of an outboard so the bracket and outboard is installed and the inboard is gone, made things much simpler and now I can finish the interior the way I want comfy and roomy. Went to the DMV and got my tags for the boat today , pretty simple one form to fill out and a copy of all reciets + $39 done deal. The only thing was because I started building Nov 05 it's a 2005 model . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15689|15612|2007-12-03 20:34:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Hi Knut, I see nobody answered this.....here goes. In a nutshell. My BS36 has twice gone over 1000 miles in 6 1/2 days. This was close reaching or beating in the trades. I have never seemed to have a downwind trip and always appear to be beating into the wind but still have fast trips. One day I will have a downwind sail and see what she can do:). The one time I was going downwind in what you could call ideal conditions only lasted for about 12 hours going from Tonga to Fiji but I was averaging ten knots and went as high as 12. As a general rule, we sail with most offshore boats up to 45 feet. The boat is tough as nails and inspires confidence in adverse conditions. I have been in other "offshore" boats that have flexed and twisted so much that doors no longer will open or close. People with no sailing experience have always felt safe on the boat. The amazing thing to me other than the above, though, is that it sails so well even though overloaded with food, tools and spares, 125 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel. I can't think of any other 36 foot boat that could do all of this. Cons? She is a little wet. She knifes through the waves and sometimes gets waves over the deck. This is probably my fault since I have too much on board and drive her hard but I would rather be wet and going through waves than stopped dead. Going downwind would also probably help;). Brent has designed one hell of a boat. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: knutfgarshol To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:36:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi boat owners! I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and the energy required. May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. Happy Thanksgiving! Knut ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15690|15687|2007-12-03 20:34:29|Tom|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Brents book shows 25000 lbs displacment on the 40, Ive allways thought they figured around 2hp per 1000lbs if you wanted to cruise at hull speed, but then who says you have to cruise at hull speed. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "troller10" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design > What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. > > Typical Loaded displacement for same? > > Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is > adequate. > > 1.5 X displacement/1000 > > A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. > > I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, > (not sure about the pitch). > > It did not seem to be overpowered. > > Anyway, comments? > > Thanks, > > BH > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15691|15678|2007-12-03 20:35:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Hull thickness|I saw a Foulkes for sale in Langkawi a few years ago that was rusting through from the inside. Someone probably paid a lot for it and had bought a lot of gear for it. It was now worth almost nothing and probably a hazard to whoever bought it. I also knew people with an Amazon that backed into a piling and ripped a hole in a weld in the transom. The 1/8 inch plate wasn't properly welded......it never should have ripped. Cheers, Paul Brent wrote: In Canada there were many commercially built boats like the Foulkes, Amazon , and Fehr boats , built of 1/8th inch plate , welded one side only and most of that weld ground off, no paint inside , sprayfoamed over rust and millscale. Many had major inside corrosion fairly quickly. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15692|15687|2007-12-03 20:41:58|Paul Wilson|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|I have a 35 horse Isuzu in my 36 and would be reluctant to go any smaller. You need very little hp when it is flat calm but when punching through a pass with adverse current and a head wind the extra power is really nice to have. 42 hp sounds small to me for a 40. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: troller10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:57:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. Typical Loaded displacement for same? Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is adequate. 1.5 X displacement/ 1000 A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, (not sure about the pitch). It did not seem to be overpowered. Anyway, comments? Thanks, BH ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15693|15693|2007-12-03 20:44:30|kingsknight4life|test??|Where'd all the messges go? Rollie| 15694|15693|2007-12-03 20:49:56|Tom|Re: test??|Was wondering that myself, guess yahoo is having problems ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] test?? > Where'd all the messges go? > Rollie > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15695|15687|2007-12-03 21:48:02|Gordon Schnell|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Paul / BH For what it's worth.....I have a 50 HP naturally-aspirated VW diesel in my 40'. I have the turbo for it, but uninstalled. When she is FINALLY launched, I'll decide whether to add the turbo or not. I have left the turbo off, as it generates way more heat in the engine bay. Heat I do not need. Gord Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have a 35 horse Isuzu in my 36 and would be reluctant to go any > smaller. You need very little hp when it is flat calm but when > punching through a pass with adverse current and a head wind the extra > power is really nice to have. 42 hp sounds small to me for a 40. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: troller10 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:57:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design > > What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. > > Typical Loaded displacement for same? > > Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is > adequate. > > 1.5 X displacement/ 1000 > > A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. > > I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, > (not sure about the pitch). > > It did not seem to be overpowered. > > Anyway, comments? > > Thanks, > > BH > > __________________________________________________________ > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. > Make Yahoo! your homepage. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15696|15612|2007-12-03 21:50:51|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Hi Paul, thanks a lot for your reply that is quite encouraging in content to a brand NEW owner of a BS36! It does sound like I have made an excellent purchase. If you noticed the ad for the BS36 in San Diego CA named Archetype, that is the one. I have so far just sailed her as part of initial sea trial in 8-10 kn of wind, which does not really tell too much. Still, we did get 4.5 to 5.5 kn on various headings (with genua) and I liked the soft movements in the small waves we had. The impression was "not so stiff" when at the dock and walking around on deck, but with a little bit of heal. under sail, she stiffened up nicely (43' aluminum mast). With all the stuff onboard and the aft cabin structure, the marina crane showed 22,000 lbs total weight. Rudder response when backing was NOT impressive. However, this was under 1-2 kn so I expect it to be quite a bit better with more speed? With prop-walk and very nice turning push on the rudder when giving forward, it was quite easy to turn 360 on the spot. Backing into a slip may still be a little bit of a challenge depending on wind and space. My urgent challenge now is to organize transport from San Diego to the FL East Coast. I am looking at Jacksonville or St. Augustine. Do you or anyone else on the forum have any idea about a good yard where I can get the rig in place again and launch her? Recommendations regarding trucking and trucking companies? I need to get this done between Dec 10 and the end of the month so time is flying. As I get sailing and learn more about the BS36 I will be reporting on the Forum (and for sure ask some questions so I can tap into the knowledge of all you experienced steel-buffs). I guess I am also one already! Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:07 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi Knut, I see nobody answered this.....here goes. In a nutshell. My BS36 has twice gone over 1000 miles in 6 1/2 days. This was close reaching or beating in the trades. I have never seemed to have a downwind trip and always appear to be beating into the wind but still have fast trips. One day I will have a downwind sail and see what she can do:). The one time I was going downwind in what you could call ideal conditions only lasted for about 12 hours going from Tonga to Fiji but I was averaging ten knots and went as high as 12. As a general rule, we sail with most offshore boats up to 45 feet. The boat is tough as nails and inspires confidence in adverse conditions. I have been in other "offshore" boats that have flexed and twisted so much that doors no longer will open or close. People with no sailing experience have always felt safe on the boat. The amazing thing to me other than the above, though, is that it sails so well even though overloaded with food, tools and spares, 125 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel. I can't think of any other 36 foot boat that could do all of this. Cons? She is a little wet. She knifes through the waves and sometimes gets waves over the deck. This is probably my fault since I have too much on board and drive her hard but I would rather be wet and going through waves than stopped dead. Going downwind would also probably help;). Brent has designed one hell of a boat. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: knutfgarshol net> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:36:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi boat owners! I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and the energy required. May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. Happy Thanksgiving! Knut __________________________________________________________ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15697|15612|2007-12-04 02:47:50|Paul Wilson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Hi Knut, Glad you liked my comments. I forgot all about maneuvering when backing up. I think with the big skeg once the boat starts turning one way or the other it tends to keep turning in whatever direction it started. My prop goes out the back end of the keel so prop wash has very little or no effect. The big skeg, however is wonderful offshore. It keeps the boat tracking like an arrow. Archetype looks great. Congratulations. Sorry, I don't know anything about boating in the states, so can't help re the transport. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Knut F Garshol To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 10:44:49 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi Paul, thanks a lot for your reply that is quite encouraging in content to a brand NEW owner of a BS36! It does sound like I have made an excellent purchase. If you noticed the ad for the BS36 in San Diego CA named Archetype, that is the one. I have so far just sailed her as part of initial sea trial in 8-10 kn of wind, which does not really tell too much. Still, we did get 4.5 to 5.5 kn on various headings (with genua) and I liked the soft movements in the small waves we had. The impression was "not so stiff" when at the dock and walking around on deck, but with a little bit of heal. under sail, she stiffened up nicely (43' aluminum mast). With all the stuff onboard and the aft cabin structure, the marina crane showed 22,000 lbs total weight. Rudder response when backing was NOT impressive. However, this was under 1-2 kn so I expect it to be quite a bit better with more speed? With prop-walk and very nice turning push on the rudder when giving forward, it was quite easy to turn 360 on the spot. Backing into a slip may still be a little bit of a challenge depending on wind and space. My urgent challenge now is to organize transport from San Diego to the FL East Coast. I am looking at Jacksonville or St. Augustine. Do you or anyone else on the forum have any idea about a good yard where I can get the rig in place again and launch her? Recommendations regarding trucking and trucking companies? I need to get this done between Dec 10 and the end of the month so time is flying. As I get sailing and learn more about the BS36 I will be reporting on the Forum (and for sure ask some questions so I can tap into the knowledge of all you experienced steel-buffs) . I guess I am also one already! Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:07 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi Knut, I see nobody answered this.....here goes. In a nutshell. My BS36 has twice gone over 1000 miles in 6 1/2 days. This was close reaching or beating in the trades. I have never seemed to have a downwind trip and always appear to be beating into the wind but still have fast trips. One day I will have a downwind sail and see what she can do:). The one time I was going downwind in what you could call ideal conditions only lasted for about 12 hours going from Tonga to Fiji but I was averaging ten knots and went as high as 12. As a general rule, we sail with most offshore boats up to 45 feet. The boat is tough as nails and inspires confidence in adverse conditions. I have been in other "offshore" boats that have flexed and twisted so much that doors no longer will open or close. People with no sailing experience have always felt safe on the boat. The amazing thing to me other than the above, though, is that it sails so well even though overloaded with food, tools and spares, 125 gallons of water and 90 gallons of fuel. I can't think of any other 36 foot boat that could do all of this. Cons? She is a little wet. She knifes through the waves and sometimes gets waves over the deck. This is probably my fault since I have too much on board and drive her hard but I would rather be wet and going through waves than stopped dead. Going downwind would also probably help;). Brent has designed one hell of a boat. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: knutfgarshol net> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:36:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... Hi boat owners! I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and the energy required. May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. Happy Thanksgiving! Knut ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/sports; _ylt=At9_ qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQt BI7ntAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15698|15612|2007-12-04 04:46:25|harveyplanes|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Knut, Congrats! There are a bunch of shipping companies. Yachtworld submits to a few and they email you back with quotes. There is another web site that does the same thing. Not sure about yards in Jacksonville but I know of a great one in Pensacola, FL, as well as a good one in Charleston, SC. Both can store, launch, and rig the boat. The yard in Charleston can also do just about any work that you want. If you need the info let me know. Cheers! Randy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > > thanks a lot for your reply that is quite encouraging in content to a brand > NEW owner of a BS36! It does sound like I have made an excellent purchase. > > > > If you noticed the ad for the BS36 in San Diego CA named Archetype, that is > the one. I have so far just sailed her as part of initial sea trial in 8-10 > kn of wind, which does not really tell too much. Still, we did get 4.5 to > 5.5 kn on various headings (with genua) and I liked the soft movements in > the small waves we had. The impression was "not so stiff" when at the dock > and walking around on deck, but with a little bit of heal. under sail, she > stiffened up nicely (43' aluminum mast). With all the stuff onboard and the > aft cabin structure, the marina crane showed 22,000 lbs total weight. > > > > Rudder response when backing was NOT impressive. However, this was under 1-2 > kn so I expect it to be quite a bit better with more speed? With prop-walk > and very nice turning push on the rudder when giving forward, it was quite > easy to turn 360 on the spot. Backing into a slip may still be a little bit > of a challenge depending on wind and space. > > > > My urgent challenge now is to organize transport from San Diego to the FL > East Coast. I am looking at Jacksonville or St. Augustine. Do you or anyone > else on the forum have any idea about a good yard where I can get the rig in > place again and launch her? Recommendations regarding trucking and trucking > companies? I need to get this done between Dec 10 and the end of the month > so time is flying. > > > > As I get sailing and learn more about the BS36 I will be reporting on the > Forum (and for sure ask some questions so I can tap into the knowledge of > all you experienced steel-buffs). I guess I am also one already! > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... > > > > Hi Knut, > > I see nobody answered this.....here goes. In a nutshell. > > My BS36 has twice gone over 1000 miles in 6 1/2 days. This was close > reaching or beating in the trades. I have never seemed to have a downwind > trip and always appear to be beating into the wind but still have fast > trips. One day I will have a downwind sail and see what she can do:). The > one time I was going downwind in what you could call ideal conditions only > lasted for about 12 hours going from Tonga to Fiji but I was averaging ten > knots and went as high as 12. As a general rule, we sail with most offshore > boats up to 45 feet. > > The boat is tough as nails and inspires confidence in adverse conditions. I > have been in other "offshore" boats that have flexed and twisted so much > that doors no longer will open or close. People with no sailing experience > have always felt safe on the boat. > > The amazing thing to me other than the above, though, is that it sails so > well even though overloaded with food, tools and spares, 125 gallons of > water and 90 gallons of fuel. I can't think of any other 36 foot boat that > could do all of this. > > Cons? She is a little wet. She knifes through the waves and sometimes gets > waves over the deck. This is probably my fault since I have too much on > board and drive her hard but I would rather be wet and going through waves > than stopped dead. Going downwind would also probably help;). > > Brent has designed one hell of a boat. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: knutfgarshol > net> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:36:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... > > Hi boat owners! > > I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I > would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that > now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and > the energy required. > > May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical > experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under > variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about > advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are > not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features > are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, > overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all > opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. > > I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > Knut > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. > > yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15699|15612|2007-12-04 08:56:44|seeratlas|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Ben is in the harbor in St. Augustine, and I'm going to be on the hard in Green Cove Springs Marina (bout 30 miles from Augustine,) for probably the next 4 or 5 months. I have seen nothing to rival the facilities, people and prices of Green Cove. Call early tho as its not all that easy to get in here. There is a small marina called Hidden something or other in Augustine you might also check out too, but I didn't see launch facilities there. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > > > thanks a lot for your reply that is quite encouraging in content to a brand > NEW owner of a BS36! It does sound like I have made an excellent purchase. > > > > If you noticed the ad for the BS36 in San Diego CA named Archetype, that is > the one. I have so far just sailed her as part of initial sea trial in 8-10 > kn of wind, which does not really tell too much. Still, we did get 4.5 to > 5.5 kn on various headings (with genua) and I liked the soft movements in > the small waves we had. The impression was "not so stiff" when at the dock > and walking around on deck, but with a little bit of heal. under sail, she > stiffened up nicely (43' aluminum mast). With all the stuff onboard and the > aft cabin structure, the marina crane showed 22,000 lbs total weight. > > > > Rudder response when backing was NOT impressive. However, this was under 1-2 > kn so I expect it to be quite a bit better with more speed? With prop-walk > and very nice turning push on the rudder when giving forward, it was quite > easy to turn 360 on the spot. Backing into a slip may still be a little bit > of a challenge depending on wind and space. > > > > My urgent challenge now is to organize transport from San Diego to the FL > East Coast. I am looking at Jacksonville or St. Augustine. Do you or anyone > else on the forum have any idea about a good yard where I can get the rig in > place again and launch her? Recommendations regarding trucking and trucking > companies? I need to get this done between Dec 10 and the end of the month > so time is flying. > > > > As I get sailing and learn more about the BS36 I will be reporting on the > Forum (and for sure ask some questions so I can tap into the knowledge of > all you experienced steel-buffs). I guess I am also one already! > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:07 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... > > > > Hi Knut, > > I see nobody answered this.....here goes. In a nutshell. > > My BS36 has twice gone over 1000 miles in 6 1/2 days. This was close > reaching or beating in the trades. I have never seemed to have a downwind > trip and always appear to be beating into the wind but still have fast > trips. One day I will have a downwind sail and see what she can do:). The > one time I was going downwind in what you could call ideal conditions only > lasted for about 12 hours going from Tonga to Fiji but I was averaging ten > knots and went as high as 12. As a general rule, we sail with most offshore > boats up to 45 feet. > > The boat is tough as nails and inspires confidence in adverse conditions. I > have been in other "offshore" boats that have flexed and twisted so much > that doors no longer will open or close. People with no sailing experience > have always felt safe on the boat. > > The amazing thing to me other than the above, though, is that it sails so > well even though overloaded with food, tools and spares, 125 gallons of > water and 90 gallons of fuel. I can't think of any other 36 foot boat that > could do all of this. > > Cons? She is a little wet. She knifes through the waves and sometimes gets > waves over the deck. This is probably my fault since I have too much on > board and drive her hard but I would rather be wet and going through waves > than stopped dead. Going downwind would also probably help;). > > Brent has designed one hell of a boat. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: knutfgarshol > net> > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 2:36:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... > > Hi boat owners! > > I am in the process of purchasing a Brent Swain 36' steel boat. I > would have liked to build one, but I figure I am too old for that > now. I need to get on the water while I still have the health and > the energy required. > > May I ask a you big favour? From all of you with personal practical > experience from living in a BS 36' (or just from sailing it under > variable conditions), what would be your personal opinion about > advantages and disadvantages with this boat. I do know that they are > not all the same, especially not the interior, but the main features > are still always there (steel building material, foam insulated, > overall dimensions, etc etc). I am interested in any and all > opinions about any aspect of owning and operating such a boat. > > I look forward to a load of objective and not so objective input. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > Knut > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. > > yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15700|15687|2007-12-04 10:06:57|Carl Anderson|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Regarding HP for your boat: My main decision process was to try to eliminate vibration. Everything that I read pointed to starting with a 4 cylinder engine. I was looking at the BETA (marinized Kubota) at the beginning. After doing my "on the water" research I switched brands to the SUZIE (marinized Isuzu). Going with the smallest 4 cylinder in the Isuzu line put me at 52 HP gross (48 HP net continuous). This was in the 36' hull w/twin keels. With a 1.91/1 transmission and a 18X13 2 blade prop (a little overpitched) the boat does 6.5 knots at 2000 RPM while burning less than 1 gallon (US) of fuel per hour. I have not had an accurate scale the 3 times I have had the boat lifted so I don't know what the current displacement really is (only about 1/2 of the interior and no sailing rig as yet). Motoring the boat from Nanaimo to Lopez Island, performance was great! We had a 15 knot headwind and 4 foot seas while crossing Haro Straight. Any reduction in speed was simply to accommodate conditions as there is plenty of power. My personal recommendation for anyone still looking around for an engine is to seriously consider going with a 4 cylinder regardless of brand. Also as Brent has stated repeatedly: MAKE SURE YOUR TRANSMISSION'S RATING EXCEEDS YOUR ENGINE'S IN CONTINUOUS DUTY! Carl Anderson MoonflowerOfMoab.com Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > Paul / BH > For what it's worth.....I have a 50 HP naturally-aspirated VW diesel in > my 40'. I have the turbo for it, but uninstalled. When she is FINALLY > launched, I'll decide whether to add the turbo or not. I have left the > turbo off, as it generates way more heat in the engine bay. Heat I do > not need. > Gord > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I have a 35 horse Isuzu in my 36 and would be reluctant to go any > > smaller. You need very little hp when it is flat calm but when > > punching through a pass with adverse current and a head wind the extra > > power is really nice to have. 42 hp sounds small to me for a 40. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: troller10 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:57:11 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design > > > > What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. > > > > Typical Loaded displacement for same? > > > > Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is > > adequate. > > > > 1.5 X displacement/ 1000 > > > > A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. > > > > I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, > > (not sure about the pitch). > > > > It did not seem to be overpowered. > > > > Anyway, comments? > > > > Thanks, > > > > BH > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. > > Make Yahoo! your homepage. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 15701|15612|2007-12-04 12:15:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 01:56:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben is in the harbor in St. Augustine, and I'm going to be on the hard > in Green Cove Springs Marina (bout 30 miles from Augustine,) for > probably the next 4 or 5 months. > I have seen nothing to rival the facilities, people and prices of > Green Cove. Call early tho as its not all that easy to get in here. I've never actually taken my boat to Green Cove, but what seer is saying is what I've heard from every single sailor who has spent time there; in fact, an acquaintance of mine outfitted his 62' bare-hull ferrocement boat there over a period of years (at least if I understand his story correctly; Norm can be a bit hard to parse, at times.) Good prices and good people - which combo can be hard to find these days. > There is a small marina called Hidden something or other in Augustine > you might also check out too, but I didn't see launch facilities there. Marinas in StA suck, universally. Every single one of them can suck a fully-inflated basketball through a garden hose; they can suck-start a Harley. Black holes get jealous at the thought of StA marinas. Am I being emphatic enough yet? :) (Oh, and Xynides marina sucks so hard that the other marinas have nearly fallen into its suck radius. Personal experience here: Nick the Greek *will* rip you off if you get into his clutches.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15702|15612|2007-12-04 12:56:21|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and co|Ben and seer, thanks for the marina information and warnings regarding St Augustine. I have been in touch with Green Cove Springs Marina and as you said, I got great service (Crystal) and the cost indications are quite reasonable as well. I plan to go there to get the boat unloaded and launched. Valuable information that I hardly would have found without your help. Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 01:56:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben is in the harbor in St. Augustine, and I'm going to be on the hard > in Green Cove Springs Marina (bout 30 miles from Augustine,) for > probably the next 4 or 5 months. > I have seen nothing to rival the facilities, people and prices of > Green Cove. Call early tho as its not all that easy to get in here. I've never actually taken my boat to Green Cove, but what seer is saying is what I've heard from every single sailor who has spent time there; in fact, an acquaintance of mine outfitted his 62' bare-hull ferrocement boat there over a period of years (at least if I understand his story correctly; Norm can be a bit hard to parse, at times.) Good prices and good people - which combo can be hard to find these days. > There is a small marina called Hidden something or other in Augustine > you might also check out too, but I didn't see launch facilities there. Marinas in StA suck, universally. Every single one of them can suck a fully-inflated basketball through a garden hose; they can suck-start a Harley. Black holes get jealous at the thought of StA marinas. Am I being emphatic enough yet? :) (Oh, and Xynides marina sucks so hard that the other marinas have nearly fallen into its suck radius. Personal experience here: Nick the Greek *will* rip you off if you get into his clutches.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15703|15693|2007-12-04 13:23:40|Cid da Silva|Re: test??|If messages have the word "Spam" on the subject line they can get trashed by your email host/client. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] test?? Was wondering that myself, guess yahoo is having problems ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] test?? > Where'd all the messges go? > Rollie > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15704|15612|2007-12-04 13:44:19|mauro gonzaga|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and co|I go on reading about Brent Swain designs on this forum, apparently everybody knows him, I have to confess I do not know him nor his designs. Actually I can't see in the web any portfolio of his design nor his web site. Any advice? Mauro Knut F Garshol wrote: Ben and seer, thanks for the marina information and warnings regarding St Augustine. I have been in touch with Green Cove Springs Marina and as you said, I got great service (Crystal) and the cost indications are quite reasonable as well. I plan to go there to get the boat unloaded and launched. Valuable information that I hardly would have found without your help. Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons.... On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 01:56:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben is in the harbor in St. Augustine, and I'm going to be on the hard > in Green Cove Springs Marina (bout 30 miles from Augustine,) for > probably the next 4 or 5 months. > I have seen nothing to rival the facilities, people and prices of > Green Cove. Call early tho as its not all that easy to get in here. I've never actually taken my boat to Green Cove, but what seer is saying is what I've heard from every single sailor who has spent time there; in fact, an acquaintance of mine outfitted his 62' bare-hull ferrocement boat there over a period of years (at least if I understand his story correctly; Norm can be a bit hard to parse, at times.) Good prices and good people - which combo can be hard to find these days. > There is a small marina called Hidden something or other in Augustine > you might also check out too, but I didn't see launch facilities there. Marinas in StA suck, universally. Every single one of them can suck a fully-inflated basketball through a garden hose; they can suck-start a Harley. Black holes get jealous at the thought of StA marinas. Am I being emphatic enough yet? :) (Oh, and Xynides marina sucks so hard that the other marinas have nearly fallen into its suck radius. Personal experience here: Nick the Greek *will* rip you off if you get into his clutches.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15705|15687|2007-12-04 15:59:26|kingsknight4life|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Regarding HP for your boat: > > My main decision process was to try to eliminate vibration. > Everything that I read pointed to starting with a 4 cylinder engine. I agree and went with 4 cylinders too. > I was looking at the BETA (marinized Kubota) at the beginning. > After doing my "on the water" research I switched brands to the SUZIE > (marinized Isuzu). I am curious as to what you found out with the "on water" research? I thought the Beta marines looked really good, I just couldn't afford one. lol I ended up buying a rebuilt 4 cyl. Kubota instead. >> This was in the 36' hull w/twin keels. Same keel conig. as mine. > With a 1.91/1 transmission and a 18X13 2 blade prop (a little overpitched) the boat does 6.5 knots at 2000 RPM while burning less than 1 gallon (US) of fuel per hour. How does this set up work for you? I'm not sure as to what prop, tranny. or pitch I need etc. > I have not had an accurate scale the 3 times I have had the boat lifted so I don't know what the current displacement really is (only about 1/2 of the interior and no sailing rig as yet). > Motoring the boat from Nanaimo to Lopez Island, performance was great! We had a 15 knot headwind and 4 foot seas while crossing Haro Straight. Any reduction in speed was simply to accommodate conditions as there is plenty of power. Good to know. : ) > My personal recommendation for anyone still looking around for an engine is to seriously consider going with a 4 cylinder regardless of brand. I agree! > > Also as Brent has stated repeatedly: MAKE SURE YOUR TRANSMISSION'S > RATING EXCEEDS YOUR ENGINE'S IN CONTINUOUS DUTY! Have heard he same thing of Brent COUNTLESS times!! > Carl Anderson > MoonflowerOfMoab.com PS. You did a great job on your boat, it looks great. I really enjoyed the photos that you posted. Rowland (and Bev), building a yet to be named BS 36 twin keeler. > > > Gordon Schnell wrote: > > > | 15706|15687|2007-12-04 17:32:16|Carl Anderson|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|In 2006 my wife and I spent 2 months sailing around BC looking at Brent boats. Most of the boats we saw had Isuzu engines marinized in BC. (that is Isuzu was the largest engine manufacturer represented in the boats we looked at) The BETA engines are marinized in the UK. Both are starting with Japanese industrial engines. I liked the idea of the "marinizing parts" being made in North America and it seems that quite a few other Brent boat builders do as well. At one point I checked into the Yanmar line as well but there are "issues" with using one of these & dry exhaust. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com kingsknight4life wrote: > > I am curious as to what you found out with the "on water" research? I > thought the Beta marines looked really good, I just couldn't afford > one. lol I ended up buying a rebuilt 4 cyl. Kubota instead. > | 15707|15693|2007-12-04 19:34:28|Tom|Re: test??|Na they were not getting filtered, they were all missing on are forum but there all back now Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cid da Silva" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] test?? > If messages have the word "Spam" on the subject line they can get trashed > by your email host/client. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] test?? > > > Was wondering that myself, guess yahoo is having problems > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kingsknight4life" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:44 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] test?? > > > Where'd all the messges go? > > Rollie > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15708|15687|2007-12-04 20:15:57|Tom|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|From what Ive seen working on farms and dairies the Isuzu is a smoother quieter engine than the Kubota. The Kubota's seem to ratle more but they do hold up well. If I was building a larger boat say 36 or 40 I would be looking at the older Ford tractor engines, the 3 and 4 cylinder engines were tough as nails and pretty smooth running for deisels Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Anderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design > Regarding HP for your boat: > > My main decision process was to try to eliminate vibration. > Everything that I read pointed to starting with a 4 cylinder engine. > I was looking at the BETA (marinized Kubota) at the beginning. > After doing my "on the water" research I switched brands to the SUZIE > (marinized Isuzu). > Going with the smallest 4 cylinder in the Isuzu line put me at 52 HP > gross (48 HP net continuous). > This was in the 36' hull w/twin keels. > With a 1.91/1 transmission and a 18X13 2 blade prop (a little > overpitched) the boat does 6.5 knots at 2000 RPM while burning less than > 1 gallon (US) of fuel per hour. > > I have not had an accurate scale the 3 times I have had the boat lifted > so I don't know what the current displacement really is (only about 1/2 > of the interior and no sailing rig as yet). > > Motoring the boat from Nanaimo to Lopez Island, performance was great! > We had a 15 knot headwind and 4 foot seas while crossing Haro Straight. > Any reduction in speed was simply to accommodate conditions as there is > plenty of power. > My personal recommendation for anyone still looking around for an > engine is to seriously consider going with a 4 cylinder regardless of > brand. > > Also as Brent has stated repeatedly: MAKE SURE YOUR TRANSMISSION'S > RATING EXCEEDS YOUR ENGINE'S IN CONTINUOUS DUTY! > > Carl Anderson > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Gordon Schnell wrote: >> >> >> Paul / BH >> For what it's worth.....I have a 50 HP naturally-aspirated VW diesel in >> my 40'. I have the turbo for it, but uninstalled. When she is FINALLY >> launched, I'll decide whether to add the turbo or not. I have left the >> turbo off, as it generates way more heat in the engine bay. Heat I do >> not need. >> Gord >> >> Paul Wilson wrote: >> > >> > I have a 35 horse Isuzu in my 36 and would be reluctant to go any >> > smaller. You need very little hp when it is flat calm but when >> > punching through a pass with adverse current and a head wind the extra >> > power is really nice to have. 42 hp sounds small to me for a 40. >> > >> > Cheers, Paul >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: troller10 >> > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 1:57:11 AM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Displacement for the 40 swain design >> > >> > What is the empty displacement for the Swain 40 foot design. >> > >> > Typical Loaded displacement for same? >> > >> > Am looking at a 42 HP Westerbeke for sale and wondering if it is >> > adequate. >> > >> > 1.5 X displacement/ 1000 >> > >> > A lot of boats seem to be greatly over powered. >> > >> > I had a 9 tonne ketch years ago with a 55 hp ford and a 18" dia prop, >> > (not sure about the pitch). >> > >> > It did not seem to be overpowered. >> > >> > Anyway, comments? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > BH >> > >> > __________________________________________________________ >> > Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. >> > Make Yahoo! your homepage. >> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15709|15612|2007-12-04 22:17:17|James Pronk|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|Hey Ben, try not to suger coat it so much, just tell us how you really feel! > Marinas in StA suck, universally. Every single one of them can suck a > fully-inflated basketball through a garden hose; they can suck- start a > Harley. Black holes get jealous at the thought of StA marinas. > > Am I being emphatic enough yet? :) > > (Oh, and Xynides marina sucks so hard that the other marinas have nearly > fallen into its suck radius. Personal experience here: Nick the Greek > *will* rip you off if you get into his clutches.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15710|15612|2007-12-04 22:52:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36' - Pros and cons....|On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 03:17:10AM -0000, James Pronk wrote: > Hey Ben, try not to suger coat it so much, just tell us how you > really feel! Sorry - I'm just a shy, tongue-tied sort of felow, and have trouble expressing myself. Maybe assertiveness training would help? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15711|15711|2007-12-05 00:37:04|kingsknight4life|Place to store my hull??|Hi. Does anyone have or know of a relatively cheap and secure place on Vanc. Isl. to store my BS36 twin keeled hull? I would even consider boatyards (as a last resort) as my boats "current rsidence" will no longer be available in the not to distan future. thanks, Rowland| 15712|15687|2007-12-05 07:53:48|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Hi What size (in cc) is the Isuzu.I've got a spare one out of a Bedford Midi van that I've been thinking of marinising, cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15713|15687|2007-12-05 08:45:53|Carl Anderson|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Andy, The displacement for the engine is 2.2L Their model number is 4LE2. It is not an automotive type engine. Carl ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > Hi > What size (in cc) is the Isuzu.I've got a spare one > out of a Bedford Midi van that I've been thinking of > marinising, > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > | 15714|15687|2007-12-05 12:09:17|kingsknight4life|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > In 2006 my wife and I spent 2 months sailing around BC looking at Brent > boats. Most of the boats we saw had Isuzu engines marinized in BC. > (that is Isuzu was the largest engine manufacturer represented in the > boats we looked at) > > The BETA engines are marinized in the UK. > > Both are starting with Japanese industrial engines. > > I liked the idea of the "marinizing parts" being made in North America > and it seems that quite a few other Brent boat builders do as well. > > At one point I checked into the Yanmar line as well but there are > "issues" with using one of these & dry exhaust. > > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > >Carl I think the Isuzu and Kubota are probably both great engines. The Betas are marinized in the UK but Beta stresses that parts can be had from any Kubota dealer worldwide and at "farm pricing" NOt "marine pricing". ie. nowhere near as expensive as say Yanmar. I think Isuzu is a popular choice on the BC coast because of Klassen diesels two outlets there (1 in Wash. state, too?) and of course they ARE good engines, too. On the "dry" exhaust comment aare you saying Yanmars and dry exhaust don't mix or not to use dry exhaust? I always thought Brent says dry exhaust is the ONLy way to go. I think Brent from Klassen told me the same? I may be mistaken though. :) Cheers Rowland| 15715|15687|2007-12-05 13:59:28|Tom|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Hello Rowland What Carl ment is the Yanmar's cant be run with dry exhaust, I talked to a Yanmar rep last year and the only engine they have that can run dry exhaust is the 9hp the rest have a closed cooling system and the heat exchanger dumps directly in exhaust. I havnt looked at one up close to see if it could be modified but just going by there tec rep saying it cant be done Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: >> >> In 2006 my wife and I spent 2 months sailing around BC looking at > Brent >> boats. Most of the boats we saw had Isuzu engines marinized in BC. >> (that is Isuzu was the largest engine manufacturer represented in > the >> boats we looked at) >> >> The BETA engines are marinized in the UK. >> >> Both are starting with Japanese industrial engines. >> >> I liked the idea of the "marinizing parts" being made in North > America >> and it seems that quite a few other Brent boat builders do as well. >> >> At one point I checked into the Yanmar line as well but there are >> "issues" with using one of these & dry exhaust. >> >> >> Carl >> MoonflowerOfMoab.com >> >>Carl > > I think the Isuzu and Kubota are probably both great engines. The > Betas are marinized in the UK but Beta stresses that parts can be had > from any Kubota dealer worldwide and at "farm pricing" NOt "marine > pricing". ie. nowhere near as expensive as say Yanmar. > > I think Isuzu is a popular choice on the BC coast because of Klassen > diesels two outlets there (1 in Wash. state, too?) and of course they > ARE good engines, too. > > On the "dry" exhaust comment aare you saying Yanmars and dry exhaust > don't mix or not to use dry exhaust? I always thought Brent says dry > exhaust is the ONLy way to go. I think Brent from Klassen told me the > same? I may be mistaken though. :) > > Cheers Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15716|15678|2007-12-05 16:33:45|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hull thickness|Hi Andy, Thanks for the info. I think I would like 6mm or so in a 60 tons of grain carrying barge that might probably have to dry out some time fully loaded. Narrowboats take a bit of a beating from the bottom and sides of the canals and the locks and each other so they need a bit of metal to resist that and last a while before they rust through after the paint has been scraped off. My 36 Swain keels are 6mm and their bottoms are 12mm. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Het Leven was built in 1910,and is a type known as an > Ijsselaak(built on or near the Ijssel,aak form > hull)with a Dutch gaff rig.It's last known commercial > cargo was 60tons of grain,but at some time after that > it was converted for pleasure use and used as a > liveaboard and for barge racing.David,the skipper,said > that it managed 9knots in a force 7 on the Ijsselmeer > when it was being demonstrated to him and he'd never > been more frightened in his life - this from a man > who'd done his war service on the North Atlantic > convoys and in the Med.He'd had HL for about 10 years > when I got to know him and had had the hull overhauled > in Italy the year before.The original construction > would have been 6mm iron and had been overplated in > one or two areas.The Italians overplated anything > below 4mm -didn't look a particularly big area - and > charged him £15k for the priviledge.I've just had > 'Canada Goose',our narrow boat,skinned using 6mm plate > because the original - 1/4" base and 5/16" sides - was > virtually through in places,largely because it had > been badly stored out of the water for about 10 years > - caveat definitely emptor when you're buying off > ebay. > Current narrowboat standards are 10/6/4 base/sides/top > but the firm who replated CG have just built a 'Dutch > Barge' style boat with a 25mm bottom,although the > owners specified that.The Dutch seem to have generally > used 6mm plate with perhaps 9mm at the turn of the > bilge where the wear might have been expected to be > greater > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 15717|15687|2007-12-05 17:56:09|kingsknight4life|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Rowland > What Carl ment is the Yanmar's cant be run with dry exhaust, I talked to a > Yanmar rep last year and the only engine they have that can run dry exhaust > is the 9hp the rest have a closed cooling system and the heat exchanger > dumps directly in exhaust. I havnt looked at one up close to see if it could > be modified but just going by there tec rep saying it cant be done > Tom > ----- > Hi Tom That makes more sense :) Thought maybe my memory was going? lol Rowland| 15718|15687|2007-12-05 21:16:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|My Isuzu was marinized by Klassen diesel in Vancouver. One of the things I liked about it was the exhaust manifold they made was out of welded heavy walled steel tubing instead of other diesels which use castings. The welded manifold can be rewelded or fixed anywhere. At the time (1986), their prices were much, much, cheaper than getting a Yanmar or Perkins. I believe the son now runs the company after Vic Klassen died. I am not sure how their prices are now but I know they ship all over the world. I like Kubotas as well since there are lots of parts available. I have been told a lot of the parts are used on tractors and directly cross over hence the "farm" pricing. I don't understand the issues with changing from wet to dry exhausts or dry to wet. I think you can design an exhaust any way you like so don't understand why the brand of engine should matter. Cheers, Paul I think the Isuzu and Kubota are probably both great engines. The Betas are marinized in the UK but Beta stresses that parts can be had from any Kubota dealer worldwide and at "farm pricing" NOt "marine pricing". ie. nowhere near as expensive as say Yanmar. I think Isuzu is a popular choice on the BC coast because of Klassen diesels two outlets there (1 in Wash. state, too?) and of course they ARE good engines, too. On the "dry" exhaust comment aare you saying Yanmars and dry exhaust don't mix or not to use dry exhaust? I always thought Brent says dry exhaust is the ONLy way to go. I think Brent from Klassen told me the same? I may be mistaken though. :) Cheers Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15719|15719|2007-12-05 23:46:55|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For Mechanical Engineer|Dear All Our Client, an International Gold Mining Company, operating in Papua, is urgently seeking for energetic and motivated Indonesian National for the following position: Mechanical Engineer (21193-2) Requirements: • S1 or D3 degree majoring in Mechanical Engineering • Having the experience of Maintenance and repair Rotary Equipment such as Crushing Machine, Pumps and Conveyor • Having Experience in MILLWRIGHT : pulley alignment, gear box, motors • Able to speak and write good English An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter. All application will be treated in the highest confidentiality and only short listed candidates will be notified.| 15720|9840|2007-12-06 00:39:48|brutus1940|BS 26|Thanks for the info.Tom. I wish I had known about the 26 when I started my 21. But I may just go ahead and start one anyway next year sometime. Again thanks Tom. I am in the top of texas.| 15721|15664|2007-12-06 09:59:49|edward_stoneuk|Diesel supply to the engine|Hi all, I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, or fuel sump cleaning. Thanks, Ted| 15722|15687|2007-12-06 15:39:15|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|I think that Kubota engines are used a lot in refrigerated trucks so that might be an alternative source for engines and spares.The Isuzu engine used in the midi is the 2 litre,mine has about 210k on the clock,of which 40k is down to me.It smokes a little bit on starting up but otherwise has given very little trouble cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15723|15664|2007-12-06 15:52:39|kingsknight4life|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, > or fuel sump cleaning. > > Thanks, > Ted > Hi Ted. My boat currently has a day tank that will be more or less directly above the engine, and will use that old but reliable standby gravity, to feed it to the engine. It is fairly big around 15 gallons if I remember correctly and it will be filled using good old reliable arm power. lol I'm looking at using some sort of manual pump like a "barrel pump" used on fuel drums. I'm going this route because I like to know I can use my equipment in the event of power failure. I don't have tons of cash for expensive systems or the maintenance of them and third I'm not the most mechanically inclined so the simpler the bettr for me. : ) AS for fuel filters I talked to a guy at Frontier power and he recommended some (don't rememebr which kind) as they are used in LOTS of gensets so they are cheap (relatively speaking) and widely available. Rowland| 15724|15678|2007-12-06 15:53:44|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Hull thickness|It seems that a lot of canals relied on the action of the loaded boats to 'barge' through the bottom sediments and thereby maintain the working depths of the canals.Not much point in blacking the bottom of the boat in those circumstances and one Dutch barge skipper was quoted as saying that it was more cost effective not to bother as it was cheaper to replace the bottom every 20 years or so.In the days before all-welded construction a lot of narrowboats were built as composites = rivetted iron sides and 3" elm bottoms,since it was easier to replace these cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15725|15687|2007-12-06 15:56:49|kingsknight4life|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > I think that Kubota engines are used a lot in > refrigerated trucks so that might be an alternative > source for engines and spares.The Isuzu engine used in > the midi is the 2 litre,mine has about 210k on the > clock,of which 40k is down to me.It smokes a little > bit on starting up but otherwise has given very little > trouble > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > Hi. Again I'm not too sure but I think "reefer" motors are built for use at constant speed and therefore not AS suited to variable speed use such as in a boating application. I mabe wrong but I remember asking "somoeone" a question about engines once and he seemed concerned it might be from a reefer unit and was relieved when I told him it came out of a skid steer. He said that engine type was more suitable. Rowland| 15726|15664|2007-12-06 16:52:28|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Gravity fed is not recomended because of spill if line breaks and electric pumps for the same reason. In the confines of a boat this can be bad on several frounts. Jon > Hi Ted. > > My boat currently has a day tank that will be more or less directly > above the engine, and will use that old but reliable standby gravity, > to feed it to the engine. It is fairly big around 15 gallons if I > remember correctly and it will be filled using good old reliable arm > power. lol I'm looking at using some sort of manual pump like > a "barrel pump" used on fuel drums. > > I'm going this route because I like to know I can use my equipment in > the event of power failure. I don't have tons of cash for expensive > systems or the maintenance of them and third I'm not the most > mechanically inclined so the simpler the bettr for me. : ) > > AS for fuel filters I talked to a guy at Frontier power and he > recommended some (don't rememebr which kind) as they are used in LOTS > of gensets so they are cheap (relatively speaking) and widely > available. > > Rowland > | 15727|15664|2007-12-06 19:34:16|Tom|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hello Ted I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump like Ben was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if its close to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing is you would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return lines and eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel lines from bleeding back to tanks when not running. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > Hi all, > > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, > or fuel sump cleaning. > > Thanks, > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15728|15664|2007-12-06 19:59:43|seeratlas|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you accidentally take on some dirty fuel. Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non-foamy fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard to stop. As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day tank is a good way to go. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Ted > I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump like Ben > was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if its close > to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing is you > would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return lines and > eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel lines > from bleeding back to tanks when not running. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge > > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They > > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction > > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks > > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting > > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, > > or fuel sump cleaning. > > > > Thanks, > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15729|15664|2007-12-06 20:01:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hi Ted, I have a day tank I fill off of the main tank down in the keel. I fill it by pressurizing the main tank with a standard dinghy inflation pump. I have a valve on the vent line, shut it off and pump in air through a Tee fitting. When the day tank is full, I open the valve and release the air. I need about 3 psi max to lift the fuel up from the bottom of the keel. I recommend an air guage to monitor the pressure but its no problem with the 1/4 inch steel on the keel tank. There is no need for electric pumps which can fail. With a gravity feed tank I don't need any pump for the heater as well. I recently added a drain on the gravity feed tank so I can sample and drain fuel off to check for dirt or water before it gets to the filters. The main tank when I check always seems to be clean but somehow dirt or water has magically appears in the day tank once in awhile. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 10:59:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine Hi all, I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, or fuel sump cleaning. Thanks, Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15730|15664|2007-12-06 20:14:18|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Oh yeah, I forgot to say that with positive pressure from a day tank feeding your fuel filters they are much easier to bleed of air. If you have a small pin-hole leak in a line, with positive pressure you will just have a little mess from the leak. If the leak is under suction from trying to suck fuel from a lower tank you get air in the filters and the pin-hole leak can be very difficult to find. I was on a boat with this problem and after running an hour or two with the engine enough air would accumulate in the filters to stop the engine. It took about a week of tightening and swapping lines before we finally found the pin-hole in the line. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 7, 2007 9:01:15 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine Hi Ted, I have a day tank I fill off of the main tank down in the keel. I fill it by pressurizing the main tank with a standard dinghy inflation pump. I have a valve on the vent line, shut it off and pump in air through a Tee fitting. When the day tank is full, I open the valve and release the air. I need about 3 psi max to lift the fuel up from the bottom of the keel. I recommend an air guage to monitor the pressure but its no problem with the 1/4 inch steel on the keel tank. There is no need for electric pumps which can fail. With a gravity feed tank I don't need any pump for the heater as well. I recently added a drain on the gravity feed tank so I can sample and drain fuel off to check for dirt or water before it gets to the filters. The main tank when I check always seems to be clean but somehow dirt or water has magically appears in the day tank once in awhile. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 10:59:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine Hi all, I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our tanks are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, or fuel sump cleaning. Thanks, Ted ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15731|15664|2007-12-06 21:07:46|kingsknight4life|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ted, > > I have a day tank .... > > I recently added a drain on the gravity feed tank so I can sample and drain fuel off to check for dirt or water before it gets to the filters. ..> > Hi Ted. My day tank has a small "bilge" with a valve for draining off dirty fuel. It also has as Seer pointed out baffles and is located directly on my center line. I hope this works for me as it is my first big sailboat. Rowland| 15732|15664|2007-12-07 10:14:41|Tom|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|That does make since if you have room for the day tank. Dont you build in baffles in the main tanks? and a filter for filling would help. I cant see foaming being a big problem unless the tanks are close to empty? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat > designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big > sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, > and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is > gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether > the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. > > Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your > day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which > will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, > it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you > move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you > accidentally take on some dirty fuel. > > Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY > need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non-foamy > fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard > to stop. > > As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a > big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is > a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the > bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and > all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. > a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while > the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day > tank is a good way to go. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Ted >> I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump > like Ben >> was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if > its close >> to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing > is you >> would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return > lines and >> eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel > lines >> from bleeding back to tanks when not running. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "edward_stoneuk" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine >> >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge >> > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They >> > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction >> > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our > tanks >> > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to >> > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting >> > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and >> > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, >> > or fuel sump cleaning. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Ted >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15733|15687|2007-12-07 11:37:50|troller10|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|There has been a lot of responses to the original posting of what size engine to use in a 40 ft swain design. I need to make a decision about the 42 hp Westerbeke. When sailing through Discovery Passage, Johnstone Strait, Fitz Hugh Sound, or any where among the numerous island of the Archipelagos, a powerful engine is very useful. I had managed to to sail my 48 footer from Port Hardy to Campbell River when my transmission cooler sprung a leak and quit working. It took a lot longer than just powering through. I had to sail the tides, (since the wind tends to follow the direction of the tide), and anchor up when the tide and wind turned against me. I was a lot of fun. I also did a 27 day trip from Seattle to Honolulu HI with no engine at all. It took three days to sail out of the Straits of Juan De Fuca and I had to get towed into the Ali Wai Harbour once I got to Hawaii, but it was no problem at al either. So the big question is..... What am going to use the engine for? Axillary power, or motoring sailing. I am beginning to talk myself into believing that the 42 hp Westerbeke is sufficient for my needs. Please someone give me a convincing argument to buy a bigger engine. Thanks, BH| 15734|15687|2007-12-07 13:39:12|Tom|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, so you dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get you there in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what would the cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "troller10" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design > There has been a lot of responses to the original posting of what size > engine to use in a 40 ft swain design. > > I need to make a decision about the 42 hp Westerbeke. > > When sailing through Discovery Passage, Johnstone Strait, Fitz Hugh > Sound, or any where among the numerous island of the Archipelagos, a > powerful engine is very useful. > > I had managed to to sail my 48 footer from Port Hardy to Campbell > River when my transmission cooler sprung a leak and quit working. It > took a lot longer than just powering through. I had to sail the tides, > (since the wind tends to follow the direction of the tide), and anchor > up when the tide and wind turned against me. I was a lot of fun. > > I also did a 27 day trip from Seattle to Honolulu HI with no engine at > all. It took three days to sail out of the Straits of Juan De Fuca and > I had to get towed into the Ali Wai Harbour once I got to Hawaii, but > it was no problem at al either. > > So the big question is..... What am going to use the engine for? > > Axillary power, or motoring sailing. > > I am beginning to talk myself into believing that the 42 hp Westerbeke > is sufficient for my needs. > > Please someone give me a convincing argument to buy a bigger engine. > > Thanks, > > BH > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15735|15687|2007-12-07 15:12:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, so you > dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get you there > in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what would the > cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. > Tom > > Sounds like Tom has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. If you're only using it for docking and when becalmed it may be big enough, I think you are the ONLY person who can truly answer that question though. Some type A people "can't" or won't wait for favorable tides etc. and some people like the extra power "just in case". It sounds to me that you'd be fine with the 42hp though. As also mentioned above, what are the cost differences? I have a 50hp for my 36 ft. boat but it is "probably" too big. It's not 50 hp continuous though (that'd be huge.?) and I got a deal on it. It is light weight and compact for that power range so it's like having a smaller engine, physically. Otherwise I'd think a 30-40 hp would've sufficed. Hope his helps. Cheers, Rowland PS Tom I have baffles in my regular tanks and my day tank. Haven't figured out where all my filters will eventually go. :) yet.| 15736|15674|2007-12-07 19:03:28|mark hamill|Re: Know ur Knots? :)|Seer: Great site. I see the future now. An exo-skeleton attached to ones limbs that "shows" one how to do anything. :} Could be funny if there was an insulting audio to go with. "No you worthless human, cretinous spawn of women--left over right....this is a grandparent knot you coal lump of carbon life form." It will probably happen and put all the Scout Masters out of work. Noth that mine were abusive--far from it. mh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php > > useful and fun for teaching the crew as I'm sure all us captains know > all of these by heart...heheheh > > > seer > | 15737|15737|2007-12-07 20:23:53|Tom|sheaves and anchor rollers|Curious question Is there any reason not to use 6061 solid aluminum to make rollers and sheaves as long as you use nylon or plastic bushings or could get fancy and use roller bearings? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15738|15664|2007-12-07 21:35:24|seeratlas|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Tom, crossing a bar or sailing into a steep chop will slosh up one heck of amount of gunk in a hurry. It's hard to keep it out of the tanks too. Every 3 or 4 years, I just got in the habit of cleaning the mains but I'm told it only takes a few weeks before the bio stuff starts working on your diesel. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > That does make since if you have room for the day tank. Dont you build in > baffles in the main tanks? and a filter for filling would help. > I cant see foaming being a big problem unless the tanks are close to empty? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > > > Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat > > designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big > > sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, > > and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is > > gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether > > the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. > > > > Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your > > day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which > > will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, > > it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you > > move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you > > accidentally take on some dirty fuel. > > > > Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY > > need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non-foamy > > fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard > > to stop. > > > > As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a > > big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is > > a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the > > bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and > > all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. > > a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while > > the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day > > tank is a good way to go. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> Hello Ted > >> I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump > > like Ben > >> was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if > > its close > >> to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing > > is you > >> would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return > > lines and > >> eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel > > lines > >> from bleeding back to tanks when not running. > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "edward_stoneuk" > >> To: > >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > >> > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my two bilge > >> > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web page. They > >> > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the suction > >> > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our > > tanks > >> > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > >> > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty lifting > >> > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > >> > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a day tank, > >> > or fuel sump cleaning. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Ted > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15739|15687|2007-12-07 21:46:16|seeratlas|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|I've heard lots of good things about that 'beke'. My 44 is at least 10k heavier than you and according to the docs i have, Kanter's spec (and they are a very good yard) was for "50 to 55" hp. I think if you're careful to pitch your prop to match your max power, you're going to be very happy with the westerbeke. Every diesel mech I've ever talked to told me to follow the manufacturers recommendation EXACTLY on matching the tranny and pitching the prop to get the proper MAX rpm. In the end its all about getting the power to the water, and more boats than you might think are waaaaay over pitched, thus never reaching their rated power. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, > so you > > dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get > you there > > in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what > would the > > cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. > > Tom > > > > > Sounds like Tom has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. If you're > only using it for docking and when becalmed it may be big enough, I > think you are the ONLY person who can truly answer that question > though. Some type A people "can't" or won't wait for favorable tides > etc. and some people like the extra power "just in case". It sounds > to me that you'd be fine with the 42hp though. > > As also mentioned above, what are the cost differences? I have a 50hp > for my 36 ft. boat but it is "probably" too big. It's not 50 hp > continuous though (that'd be huge.?) and I got a deal on it. It is > light weight and compact for that power range so it's like having a > smaller engine, physically. Otherwise I'd think a 30-40 hp would've > sufficed. Hope his helps. > > Cheers, Rowland > > PS Tom I have baffles in my regular tanks and my day tank. Haven't > figured out where all my filters will eventually go. :) yet. > | 15740|15664|2007-12-07 21:54:16|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|All the talk about diesel tanks makes me wonder on what I've done so far with the tankage on Moonflower. I put a baffle in the main tank but there is nothing in the day tank. I did use gravity feed for the day tank & now find out that its not the best way to go about it. I will have duel filters (hot switchable) from the day tank to the engine. I can always install a filtration system between the main & day tanks. I did opt for having a water drain at the bottom of the main. I am using a hand pump from the main to the day tank (not really trusting an electric motor for that job). All my tanks (diesel & water) have electric level sensors in them. During my last visit to the boat I installed all the fill & vent hose to the water tanks & the main fuel tank. Carl seeratlas wrote: > > > Tom, crossing a bar or sailing into a steep chop will slosh up one > heck of amount of gunk in a hurry. It's hard to keep it out of the > tanks too. Every 3 or 4 years, I just got in the habit of cleaning the > mains but I'm told it only takes a few weeks before the bio stuff > starts working on your diesel. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Tom" wrote: > > > > That does make since if you have room for the day tank. Dont you > build in > > baffles in the main tanks? and a filter for filling would help. > > I cant see foaming being a big problem unless the tanks are close > to empty? > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > > > > > > Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat > > > designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big > > > sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, > > > and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is > > > gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether > > > the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. > > > > > > Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your > > > day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which > > > will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, > > > it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you > > > move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you > > > accidentally take on some dirty fuel. > > > > > > Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY > > > need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non-foamy > > > fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard > > > to stop. > > > > > > As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a > > > big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is > > > a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the > > > bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and > > > all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. > > > a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while > > > the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day > > > tank is a good way to go. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello Ted > > >> I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump > > > like Ben > > >> was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if > > > its close > > >> to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing > > > is you > > >> would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return > > > lines and > > >> eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel > > > lines > > >> from bleeding back to tanks when not running. > > >> Tom > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "edward_stoneuk" > > >> To: > > > >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi all, > > >> > > > >> > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my > two bilge > > >> > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web > page. They > > >> > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the > suction > > >> > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our > > > tanks > > >> > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > > >> > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty > lifting > > >> > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > > >> > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a > day tank, > > >> > or fuel sump cleaning. > > >> > > > >> > Thanks, > > >> > Ted > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15741|15664|2007-12-08 00:08:51|kingsknight4life|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > All the talk about diesel tanks makes me wonder on what I've done so far > with the tankage on Moonflower. > I put a baffle in the main tank but there is nothing in the day tank. Should be okay I thnk it dependds how big the day tank is and where it is located. I'm assuming on the center line. > I did use gravity feed for the day tank & now find out that its not the > best way to go about it. Brent told me thats the way to go. I think lots of Swains have gravity fed day tanks. > I will have duel filters (hot switchable) from the day tank to the engine. > I can always install a filtration system between the main & day tanks. > I did opt for having a water drain at the bottom of the main. > I am using a hand pump from the main to the day tank (not really > trusting an electric motor for that job). I'm doing the same. > All my tanks (diesel & water) have electric level sensors in them. > During my last visit to the boat I installed all the fill & vent hose > to the water tanks & the main fuel tank. > > Carl > Sounds like everything is fine. Keep us informed. All my installations are relying on Brent's experience. Rowland| 15742|15664|2007-12-08 02:18:15|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Carl, your set up is fine. I have the same system and have not had any trouble in the last 15 years or so that I have had the boat. Carl Anderson wrote: > All the talk about diesel tanks makes me wonder on what I've done so far > with the tankage on Moonflower. > I put a baffle in the main tank but there is nothing in the day tank. > I did use gravity feed for the day tank & now find out that its not the > best way to go about it. > I will have duel filters (hot switchable) from the day tank to the engine. > I can always install a filtration system between the main & day tanks. > I did opt for having a water drain at the bottom of the main. > I am using a hand pump from the main to the day tank (not really > trusting an electric motor for that job). > All my tanks (diesel & water) have electric level sensors in them. > During my last visit to the boat I installed all the fill & vent hose > to the water tanks & the main fuel tank. > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 15743|15687|2007-12-08 07:37:39|troller10|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|Thanks for the input. I am getting a very good deal on the 'beke'. Engine, Transmission, Exhaust system, fuel filter, water strainer, hoses, electrical panel and probably more, for $1,900. The tranny is stuck in forward, but the engine has has excellent maintenance records. It is in a boat right now. It started right up and ran strong. It has 2,200 hours on it. I had better call the guy and tell him it is sold. Thanks again all the input. BH --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've heard lots of good things about that 'beke'. My 44 is at least > 10k heavier than you and according to the docs i have, Kanter's spec > (and they are a very good yard) was for "50 to 55" hp. > I think if you're careful to pitch your prop to match your max power, > you're going to be very happy with the westerbeke. Every diesel mech > I've ever talked to told me to follow the manufacturers recommendation > EXACTLY on matching the tranny and pitching the prop to get the proper > MAX rpm. In the end its all about getting the power to the water, > and more boats than you might think are waaaaay over pitched, thus > never reaching their rated power. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, > > so you > > > dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get > > you there > > > in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what > > would the > > > cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > Sounds like Tom has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. If you're > > only using it for docking and when becalmed it may be big enough, I > > think you are the ONLY person who can truly answer that question > > though. Some type A people "can't" or won't wait for favorable tides > > etc. and some people like the extra power "just in case". It sounds > > to me that you'd be fine with the 42hp though. > > > > As also mentioned above, what are the cost differences? I have a 50hp > > for my 36 ft. boat but it is "probably" too big. It's not 50 hp > > continuous though (that'd be huge.?) and I got a deal on it. It is > > light weight and compact for that power range so it's like having a > > smaller engine, physically. Otherwise I'd think a 30-40 hp would've > > sufficed. Hope his helps. > > > > Cheers, Rowland > > > > PS Tom I have baffles in my regular tanks and my day tank. Haven't > > figured out where all my filters will eventually go. :) yet. > > > | 15744|15664|2007-12-08 08:39:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 02:35:23AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Tom, crossing a bar or sailing into a steep chop will slosh up one > heck of amount of gunk in a hurry. It's hard to keep it out of the > tanks too. Every 3 or 4 years, I just got in the habit of cleaning the > mains but I'm told it only takes a few weeks before the bio stuff > starts working on your diesel. Down in the Caribbean, you _really_ get to experience the "bio gunk": the stuff looks like long strings of gelatin, breaks down into a thin brown mud in your tank, and will clog your engine in nothing flat. However, keeping water out of your tank (mostly, simply by keeping it as full as you can when you can) and adding a shot of Biobor or similar with every fill-up handles the problem. If you ever buy a boat, make sure to get your tank well scrubbed on the inside - there are services you can hire that do this. It costs a hundred bucks or so, but your engine won't die due to clogging the next time you're in a storm... that could be worth a lot more than a C-note. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15745|15687|2007-12-08 10:30:56|Tom|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|From some of the prices Ive seen, I wouldnt wait to long to buy it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "troller10" To: Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design > Thanks for the input. > > I am getting a very good deal on the 'beke'. Engine, Transmission, > Exhaust system, fuel filter, water strainer, hoses, electrical panel > and probably more, for $1,900. > > The tranny is stuck in forward, but the engine has has excellent > maintenance records. It is in a boat right now. It started right up > and ran strong. It has 2,200 hours on it. > > I had better call the guy and tell him it is sold. > > Thanks again all the input. > > BH > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: >> >> I've heard lots of good things about that 'beke'. My 44 is at least >> 10k heavier than you and according to the docs i have, Kanter's spec >> (and they are a very good yard) was for "50 to 55" hp. >> I think if you're careful to pitch your prop to match your max power, >> you're going to be very happy with the westerbeke. Every diesel mech >> I've ever talked to told me to follow the manufacturers recommendation >> EXACTLY on matching the tranny and pitching the prop to get the proper >> MAX rpm. In the end its all about getting the power to the water, >> and more boats than you might think are waaaaay over pitched, thus >> never reaching their rated power. >> >> seer >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" >> wrote: >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> > > >> > > Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, >> > so you >> > > dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get >> > you there >> > > in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what >> > would the >> > > cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. >> > > Tom >> > > >> > > >> > Sounds like Tom has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. If you're >> > only using it for docking and when becalmed it may be big enough, I >> > think you are the ONLY person who can truly answer that question >> > though. Some type A people "can't" or won't wait for favorable tides >> > etc. and some people like the extra power "just in case". It sounds >> > to me that you'd be fine with the 42hp though. >> > >> > As also mentioned above, what are the cost differences? I have a 50hp >> > for my 36 ft. boat but it is "probably" too big. It's not 50 hp >> > continuous though (that'd be huge.?) and I got a deal on it. It is >> > light weight and compact for that power range so it's like having a >> > smaller engine, physically. Otherwise I'd think a 30-40 hp would've >> > sufficed. Hope his helps. >> > >> > Cheers, Rowland >> > >> > PS Tom I have baffles in my regular tanks and my day tank. Haven't >> > figured out where all my filters will eventually go. :) yet. >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15746|15746|2007-12-09 20:24:17|seeratlas|Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it around and voila'. was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your eyes :) seer| 15747|15746|2007-12-09 20:33:25|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|seer, sounds like a real problem-solver! You mention cleaning dirt off of epoxy coating, but do you have any idea about two-component polyurethane coats (which is the final coat on my "new" BS36)? Will it just clean, or is there any risk of surface finish damage? I guess I will just have to try it on a small area where it does not show, but if you know already...... After the boat has made 2600 miles on the highways to get to the Green Cove Springs Marina, I am pretty sure there will be a need for a cleaning operation to get rid of road dust, exhaust residue, rubber particle etc. Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it around and voila'. was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your eyes :) seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15748|15746|2007-12-09 21:55:11|Paul Wilson|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Turpentine usually works with tree sap. I had a real ground in soot problem in my decks that no cleaners would touch caused by a screwed up diesel heater. I finally tried oven cleaner and it did the trick. It was amazing how well it worked. I have since used it on engine parts and it takes the varnish and deposits off engine parts amazingly well. I used the old fashioned foaming caustic kind but the new types might be gentler. I would experiment on a small area to make sure it doesn't damage the paint first. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Knut F Garshol To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 9:28:22 AM Subject: RE: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) seer, sounds like a real problem-solver! You mention cleaning dirt off of epoxy coating, but do you have any idea about two-component polyurethane coats (which is the final coat on my "new" BS36)? Will it just clean, or is there any risk of surface finish damage? I guess I will just have to try it on a small area where it does not show, but if you know already..... . After the boat has made 2600 miles on the highways to get to the Green Cove Springs Marina, I am pretty sure there will be a need for a cleaning operation to get rid of road dust, exhaust residue, rubber particle etc. Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:24 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it around and voila'. was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your eyes :) seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15749|15664|2007-12-10 05:50:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Paul and all, Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about using air pressure to move fuel about. I have seen it used to empty oil barrels up into tanks on a truck and I have used it very carefully to speed oil out of gearboxes and final drives when doing oil changes on earthmoving plant. Do you have a separate sump pipe in the keel tank to empty the water and crud out or do you just use one emptying pipe and clean the fuel on the way to the day tank? Do you pipe the fuel return just to the day tank or to the keel tank? What did you make your day tank out of? One could use air pressure and a manometer or low pressure gauge to take the level of the fuel or water in the tanks. The pressure reading of the gauge or manometer reflects the inches of water or fuel above the bottom of the pipe when the pipe is full of air but no air is flowing. What type and make of level transducers did you use in the tanks? Regards, Ted| 15750|15746|2007-12-10 08:34:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 01:24:16AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a > tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar > store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with > what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. [...] > was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. > also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. > try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your > eyes :) Also great for removing the "waterway moustache" (the tannic stain on the hull from crusing the ICW in the South) as well as the algae that builds up at the waterline. Most folks in the Caribbean just dive in and take two laps around the boat: one to spooge the stuff on, one to wipe it off. No scrubbing required. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15751|15746|2007-12-10 10:22:02|seeratlas|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Knut, 1. You are going to LOVE it in this marina. lol, I've never seen anything like it. Hell, they have every marine catalog you can imagine in the office. They'll let you order up at wholesale plus a ten percent commission and store the stuff for you when it comes in. We're talking saving GOBS of money on a refit. 2. They use this stuff on pretty much all the boats except the wood ones. One caveat, you want to be careful to keep it off your anti-fouling as it jumps on the copper in the bottom paint pretty good. Usually not a problem if boat is on the hard as you're invariably going to recoat the bottom before you go in anyway. 3. No probs with the two part poly. In fact, that stuff is almost impossible to get off anyway :) look forward to meeting you. when does your boat arrive? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > sounds like a real problem-solver! > > > > You mention cleaning dirt off of epoxy coating, but do you have any idea > about two-component polyurethane coats (which is the final coat on my "new" > BS36)? Will it just clean, or is there any risk of surface finish damage? > > > > I guess I will just have to try it on a small area where it does not show, > but if you know already...... After the boat has made 2600 miles on the > highways to get to the Green Cove Springs Marina, I am pretty sure there > will be a need for a cleaning operation to get rid of road dust, exhaust > residue, rubber particle etc. > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:24 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) > > > > Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a > tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar > store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with > what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. > > Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get > the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned > myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber > gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but > takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe > on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it > around and voila'. > > was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. > also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. > try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your > eyes :) > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15752|15746|2007-12-10 10:24:18|seeratlas|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Ben said:" Most folks in the Caribbean just dive in and > take two laps around the boat: one to spooge the stuff on, one to wipe > it off. No scrubbing required. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > hehehe, Ben, no one swimming round here, we have a resident 12 foot alligator off the dock LOL. :) no kiddin. seer| 15753|15664|2007-12-10 10:25:20|seeratlas|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|What happens to the tank vent? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Paul and all, > > Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about using air pressure > to move fuel about. I have seen it used to empty oil barrels up into > tanks on a truck and I have used it very carefully to speed oil out of > gearboxes and final drives when doing oil changes on earthmoving plant. > > Do you have a separate sump pipe in the keel tank to empty the water > and crud out or do you just use one emptying pipe and clean the fuel on > the way to the day tank? > > Do you pipe the fuel return just to the day tank or to the keel tank? > > What did you make your day tank out of? > > One could use air pressure and a manometer or low pressure gauge to > take the level of the fuel or water in the tanks. The pressure reading > of the gauge or manometer reflects the inches of water or fuel above > the bottom of the pipe when the pipe is full of air but no air is > flowing. > > What type and make of level transducers did you use in the tanks? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 15754|15664|2007-12-10 11:30:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hi Seer, Paul said he has a "valve on the vent line, shut it off and pump in air through a Tee fitting. When the day tank is full, I open the valve and release the air." When one is sounding the tanks using air pressure and a manometer then the vents need to be open. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > What happens to the tank vent? > > seer > > | 15755|15746|2007-12-10 11:39:42|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really work|seer, good to hear that the marina is tops. I am not doing any refit since the boat is in excellent shape as it is, but it is my first time having a boat packed up for highway transport and then have to put it back together again. Problem is, I have no chance to take part in the packing down, so there will probably be some head scratching when we start running lines and cables and connections etc. to get ready for launch. I am counting on some professional help there to get it done right. As it looks now, the boat should arrive Dec 18 or 19. Then I guess it takes a couple of days to get ready for sailing and I will either start out directly for Ft Lauderdale, or that trip will have to wait until January. I hope to see you around there some time. I understand you are located somewhere close? Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 10:22 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) Knut, 1. You are going to LOVE it in this marina. lol, I've never seen anything like it. Hell, they have every marine catalog you can imagine in the office. They'll let you order up at wholesale plus a ten percent commission and store the stuff for you when it comes in. We're talking saving GOBS of money on a refit. 2. They use this stuff on pretty much all the boats except the wood ones. One caveat, you want to be careful to keep it off your anti-fouling as it jumps on the copper in the bottom paint pretty good. Usually not a problem if boat is on the hard as you're invariably going to recoat the bottom before you go in anyway. 3. No probs with the two part poly. In fact, that stuff is almost impossible to get off anyway :) look forward to meeting you. when does your boat arrive? seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > sounds like a real problem-solver! > > > > You mention cleaning dirt off of epoxy coating, but do you have any idea > about two-component polyurethane coats (which is the final coat on my "new" > BS36)? Will it just clean, or is there any risk of surface finish damage? > > > > I guess I will just have to try it on a small area where it does not show, > but if you know already...... After the boat has made 2600 miles on the > highways to get to the Green Cove Springs Marina, I am pretty sure there > will be a need for a cleaning operation to get rid of road dust, exhaust > residue, rubber particle etc. > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:24 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :) > > > > Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a > tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar > store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with > what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. > > Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get > the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned > myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber > gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but > takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe > on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it > around and voila'. > > was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. > also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. > try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your > eyes :) > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15756|15746|2007-12-10 15:44:23|seeratlas|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Hmmm, I may just miss you. Christmas party for the marina is the 15th, I'll probably be headed back home shortly thereafter but the boat will still be here. I'm about 100 feet from where they are going to launch you :) The guy you want is JB, chief mechanic around here. He can help you get the rig up and tuned. seer| 15757|15746|2007-12-10 21:26:18|Ben Okopnik|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 03:24:16PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ben said:" Most folks in the Caribbean just dive in and > > take two laps around the boat: one to spooge the stuff on, one to wipe > > it off. No scrubbing required. > > hehehe, Ben, no one swimming round here, we have a resident 12 foot > alligator off the dock LOL. :) no kiddin. Heh. I have an entry in my log from more than a decade back, when an xgf and I stopped in some anchorage in South Carolina: "Saw a 10'-long water snake as we were anchoring and came to an instant agreement: NO SWIMMIES." :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15758|15664|2007-12-11 05:29:45|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hi Ted, Sorry for the delay in answering your questions. I am struggling with a slow dial-up in a hotel with bad phone lines. Hopefully this will answer your questions. The main tank is integral to the keel (back half) and connected directly to the top of the day tank via a 3/4 inch hose. This hose is probably much bigger than it needed to be and adding a filter inline here would be an improvement but I found not really necessary. I painted the inside of my fuel tank (I can climb inside) and always filter my fuel as it goes into the boat. I have found water in the day tank twice after offshore passages but never in the main tank. I believe the water came in through the vent line after rough passages and the boat was doing its impersonation of a submarine. As I said in a earlier post, I now have a drain on the day tank to sample and check the fuel for dirt or water before it gets to the engine filters. The vent line for the keel tank is 1/2 inch hose and goes from the keel to a Tee, then through a shut-off valve, and then to the day tank vent line and then out to the cockpit vent. There is a 10 psi air guage mounted on the Tee as well so I can measure the air pressure. The valve in the vent line is closed when you desire to put air pressure into the keel tank through the Tee. There is also a valve on the outlet from the Tee with a short piece of hose where you hook up the dinghy pump. The valve is there so that when it is shut the vent goes overboard and not to where the dinghy pump was hooked. The keel vent line could be completely separate from the day tank vent line which always remains open. I just combined them for convenience. So you hook up the dinghy pump, open its valve, and close the valve on the vent line. Pump untill you feel like you are filling an already inflated dinghy, and monitor the site glass and air guage until the day tank is full. Also monitor the air guage and don't get the pressure too high. When the day tank is full or close to full, open the vent line and let the air out. The return line from the diesel goes into the top of the day tank. The 11 gallon day tank is TIG welded stainless steel mounted on the centerline and has a sight tube on the side to see how full it is. If it was ever over-filled, the excess would either go out the vent line or go back down the 3/4 inch hose going to the keel tank. The keel tank fuel guage is a stick with some magic marker marks on it. I can usually guess how full it is by how many times I have filled the day tank. I open a plug and dip the tank to get more accurate. Since the main tank is down in the keel, I check for water by sucking off the bottom of the tank with a hose through this same plug. Hope that's clear, Cheers, Paul --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > Paul and all, > > Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about > using air pressure > to move fuel about. I have seen it used to empty > oil barrels up into > tanks on a truck and I have used it very carefully > to speed oil out of > gearboxes and final drives when doing oil changes on > earthmoving plant. > > Do you have a separate sump pipe in the keel tank to > empty the water > and crud out or do you just use one emptying pipe > and clean the fuel on > the way to the day tank? > > Do you pipe the fuel return just to the day tank or > to the keel tank? > > What did you make your day tank out of? > > One could use air pressure and a manometer or low > pressure gauge to > take the level of the fuel or water in the tanks. > The pressure reading > of the gauge or manometer reflects the inches of > water or fuel above > the bottom of the pipe when the pipe is full of air > but no air is > flowing. > > What type and make of level transducers did you use > in the tanks? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ| 15759|15664|2007-12-11 14:18:20|mark hamill|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Speaking of rust, grit and water in fuel, has anyone ever found or made a large clear sediment bowl that would allow the goop to be sidelined and removed via a bottom valve? I was thinkking about trying one of those clear plaastic water filters but the gasket and/or clear plastic case would probably deteriate. My auto parts place didn't seem to have anything. Mark| 15760|15664|2007-12-11 17:33:42|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Thanks Paul, Thats a straightforward system. What kind of fuel filler do you have and how do you connect it too the tank? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ted, > > Sorry for the delay in answering your questions. I am > struggling with a slow dial-up in a hotel with bad > phone lines. Hopefully this will answer your > questions. > > The main tank is integral to the keel (back half) and > connected directly to the top of the day tank via a > 3/4 inch hose. This hose is probably much bigger than > it needed to be and adding a filter inline here would > be an improvement but I found not really necessary. I > painted the inside of my fuel tank (I can climb > inside) and always filter my fuel as it goes into the > boat. I have found water in the day tank twice after > offshore passages but never in the main tank. I > believe the water came in through the vent line after > rough passages and the boat was doing its > impersonation of a submarine. As I said in a earlier > post, I now have a drain on the day tank to sample and > check the fuel for dirt or water before it gets to the > engine filters. > > The vent line for the keel tank is 1/2 inch hose and > goes from the keel to a Tee, then through a shut-off > valve, and then to the day tank vent line and then out > to the cockpit vent. There is a 10 psi air guage > mounted on the Tee as well so I can measure the air > pressure. The valve in the vent line is closed when > you desire to put air pressure into the keel tank > through the Tee. There is also a valve on the outlet > from the Tee with a short piece of hose where you hook > up the dinghy pump. The valve is there so that when > it is shut the vent goes overboard and not to where > the dinghy pump was hooked. The keel vent line could > be completely separate from the day tank vent line > which always remains open. I just combined them for > convenience. > > So you hook up the dinghy pump, open its valve, and > close the valve on the vent line. Pump untill you > feel like you are filling an already inflated dinghy, > and monitor the site glass and air guage until the day > tank is full. Also monitor the air guage and don't > get the pressure too high. When the day tank is full > or close to full, open the vent line and let the air > out. > > The return line from the diesel goes into the top of > the day tank. The 11 gallon day tank is TIG welded > stainless steel mounted on the centerline and has a > sight tube on the side to see how full it is. If it > was ever over-filled, the excess would either go out > the vent line or go back down the 3/4 inch hose going > to the keel tank. The keel tank fuel guage is a stick > with some magic marker marks on it. I can usually > guess how full it is by how many times I have filled > the day tank. I open a plug and dip the tank to get > more accurate. Since the main tank is down in the > keel, I check for water by sucking off the bottom of > the tank with a hose through this same plug. > > > > Hope that's clear, > > Cheers, Paul > > > > --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Paul and all, > > > > Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about > > using air pressure > > to move fuel about. I have seen it used to empty > > oil barrels up into > > tanks on a truck and I have used it very carefully > > to speed oil out of > > gearboxes and final drives when doing oil changes on > > earthmoving plant. > > > > Do you have a separate sump pipe in the keel tank to > > empty the water > > and crud out or do you just use one emptying pipe > > and clean the fuel on > > the way to the day tank? > > > > Do you pipe the fuel return just to the day tank or > > to the keel tank? > > > > What did you make your day tank out of? > > > > One could use air pressure and a manometer or low > > pressure gauge to > > take the level of the fuel or water in the tanks. > > The pressure reading > > of the gauge or manometer reflects the inches of > > water or fuel above > > the bottom of the pipe when the pipe is full of air > > but no air is > > flowing. > > > > What type and make of level transducers did you use > > in the tanks? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > | 15761|15664|2007-12-11 17:40:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hi Mark, These people have them. www.fuelsystem.co.uk/water_separators.htm I guess that one can get diesel water separators all over. They tend to be used in agricultural or construction plant as they are often filled from drums, which tend to get condensation in them. I was thinking of buying on of the separators on the above web page. I wouldn't use clear plastic as it may be polycarbonate, which from memory is affected by hydrocarbons as in diesel. It crazes. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Speaking of rust, grit and water in fuel, has anyone ever found or made > a large clear sediment bowl that would allow the goop to be sidelined > and removed via a bottom valve? I was thinkking about trying one of > those clear plaastic water filters but the gasket and/or clear plastic > case would probably deteriate. My auto parts place didn't seem to have > anything. Mark > | 15762|15664|2007-12-11 19:38:17|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Hi Ted, The fuel filler is just the standard fuel filler mounted on the cockpit floor going direct down into the tank through a hose. I have a Baha Filter from Westmarine but have also used a large funnel with some felt to filter fuel before it goes into the tank. The standard fuel fillers are too small for a lot of nozzles from filling stations or trucks but if you use the external filters or funnel it is no problem. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:33:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine Thanks Paul, Thats a straightforward system. What kind of fuel filler do you have and how do you connect it too the tank? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ted, > > Sorry for the delay in answering your questions. I am > struggling with a slow dial-up in a hotel with bad > phone lines. Hopefully this will answer your > questions. > > The main tank is integral to the keel (back half) and > connected directly to the top of the day tank via a > 3/4 inch hose. This hose is probably much bigger than > it needed to be and adding a filter inline here would > be an improvement but I found not really necessary. I > painted the inside of my fuel tank (I can climb > inside) and always filter my fuel as it goes into the > boat. I have found water in the day tank twice after > offshore passages but never in the main tank. I > believe the water came in through the vent line after > rough passages and the boat was doing its > impersonation of a submarine. As I said in a earlier > post, I now have a drain on the day tank to sample and > check the fuel for dirt or water before it gets to the > engine filters. > > The vent line for the keel tank is 1/2 inch hose and > goes from the keel to a Tee, then through a shut-off > valve, and then to the day tank vent line and then out > to the cockpit vent. There is a 10 psi air guage > mounted on the Tee as well so I can measure the air > pressure. The valve in the vent line is closed when > you desire to put air pressure into the keel tank > through the Tee. There is also a valve on the outlet > from the Tee with a short piece of hose where you hook > up the dinghy pump. The valve is there so that when > it is shut the vent goes overboard and not to where > the dinghy pump was hooked. The keel vent line could > be completely separate from the day tank vent line > which always remains open. I just combined them for > convenience. > > So you hook up the dinghy pump, open its valve, and > close the valve on the vent line. Pump untill you > feel like you are filling an already inflated dinghy, > and monitor the site glass and air guage until the day > tank is full. Also monitor the air guage and don't > get the pressure too high. When the day tank is full > or close to full, open the vent line and let the air > out. > > The return line from the diesel goes into the top of > the day tank. The 11 gallon day tank is TIG welded > stainless steel mounted on the centerline and has a > sight tube on the side to see how full it is. If it > was ever over-filled, the excess would either go out > the vent line or go back down the 3/4 inch hose going > to the keel tank. The keel tank fuel guage is a stick > with some magic marker marks on it. I can usually > guess how full it is by how many times I have filled > the day tank. I open a plug and dip the tank to get > more accurate. Since the main tank is down in the > keel, I check for water by sucking off the bottom of > the tank with a hose through this same plug. > > > > Hope that's clear, > > Cheers, Paul > > > > --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Paul and all, > > > > Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about > > using air pressure > > to move fuel about. I have seen it used to empty > > oil barrels up into > > tanks on a truck and I have used it very carefully > > to speed oil out of > > gearboxes and final drives when doing oil changes on > > earthmoving plant. > > > > Do you have a separate sump pipe in the keel tank to > > empty the water > > and crud out or do you just use one emptying pipe > > and clean the fuel on > > the way to the day tank? > > > > Do you pipe the fuel return just to the day tank or > > to the keel tank? > > > > What did you make your day tank out of? > > > > One could use air pressure and a manometer or low > > pressure gauge to > > take the level of the fuel or water in the tanks. > > The pressure reading > > of the gauge or manometer reflects the inches of > > water or fuel above > > the bottom of the pipe when the pipe is full of air > > but no air is > > flowing. > > > > What type and make of level transducers did you use > > in the tanks? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ ____________ __ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15763|15664|2007-12-11 19:54:50|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|I have previously used large dual filter/separator bowls for a de-rated GM 671 that was burning heating fuel. Algae was an issue several times and the dual filter dual separator bowls was a Godsend. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge. From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark hamill Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 2:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine Speaking of rust, grit and water in fuel, has anyone ever found or made a large clear sediment bowl that would allow the goop to be sidelined and removed via a bottom valve? I was thinkking about trying one of those clear plaastic water filters but the gasket and/or clear plastic case would probably deteriate. My auto parts place didn't seem to have anything. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15764|15746|2007-12-12 08:05:51|audeojude|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|:) only 12 feet? no worries man.. just jump right in.. :) I used to work in the water around alligators all the time... 8 ft and under I didn't worry about.. 12 ft you were a little more careful about. If the gator is aggressive then probably not a good idea to get in. If it is scared of people then no worries. If it mating season (spring) then no way no how am I going near the water :) If baby gators are in the water no way, and hell no!!! If you get into a confrontation with it in the water then make sure you look large.. get as much of your body out out of the water as possible so you are looking down at it. also splash lots of water on it. other than that get the hell out of the water and or have a 9mm with ball ammo and shoot it between the eyes :) hollow tips will probably bounce.. actually the ball might to :) they have hard heads :) however in the 5 years I had a job working in the water around them I only had one aggressive run in with one.. It was a 12 footer though... a real lunch is served feeling, with me being the main course. It resolved peacefully after a few tense moments with some basic hollering and splashing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ben said:" Most folks in the Caribbean just dive in and > > take two laps around the boat: one to spooge the stuff on, one to wipe > > it off. No scrubbing required. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > hehehe, Ben, no one swimming round here, we have a resident 12 foot > alligator off the dock LOL. :) no kiddin. > > seer > | 15765|15664|2007-12-12 13:06:53|mark hamill|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: Ted; Thanks for the tip. Found lots of resources using Google under "Diesel fuel seperators". Now that I know what to look for and then discovered a machine shop with many old logging crawlers so will see if they have some. Mark > Hi Mark, > > These people have them. > > www.fuelsystem.co.uk/water_separators.htm > > I guess that one can get diesel water separators all over. They tend > to be used in agricultural or construction plant as they are often > filled from drums, which tend to get condensation in them. I was > thinking of buying on of the separators on the above web page. I > wouldn't use clear plastic as it may be polycarbonate, which from > memory is affected by hydrocarbons as in diesel. It crazes. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > Speaking of rust, grit and water in fuel, has anyone ever found or > made > > a large clear sediment bowl that would allow the goop to be sidelined > > and removed via a bottom valve? I was thinkking about trying one of > > those clear plaastic water filters but the gasket and/or clear > plastic > > case would probably deteriate. My auto parts place didn't seem to > have > > anything. Mark > > > | 15766|15737|2007-12-12 15:21:02|brentswain38|Re: sheaves and anchor rollers|No problem, Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Curious question > Is there any reason not to use 6061 solid aluminum to make rollers and sheaves as long as you use nylon or plastic bushings or could get fancy and use roller bearings? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15767|15664|2007-12-12 15:23:43|brentswain38|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|That's why I like a ten gallon day tank with a sump in the bottom and a drain tap,under the front of the cockpit . I plan to run the drain to my woodstove for kindling( cold stove use only). Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Tom, crossing a bar or sailing into a steep chop will slosh up one > heck of amount of gunk in a hurry. It's hard to keep it out of the > tanks too. Every 3 or 4 years, I just got in the habit of cleaning the > mains but I'm told it only takes a few weeks before the bio stuff > starts working on your diesel. > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > That does make since if you have room for the day tank. Dont you > build in > > baffles in the main tanks? and a filter for filling would help. > > I cant see foaming being a big problem unless the tanks are close > to empty? > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:59 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > > > > > > Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat > > > designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big > > > sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, > > > and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is > > > gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether > > > the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. > > > > > > Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your > > > day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which > > > will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, > > > it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you > > > move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you > > > accidentally take on some dirty fuel. > > > > > > Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY > > > need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non- foamy > > > fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard > > > to stop. > > > > > > As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a > > > big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is > > > a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the > > > bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and > > > all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. > > > a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while > > > the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day > > > tank is a good way to go. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello Ted > > >> I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump > > > like Ben > > >> was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if > > > its close > > >> to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing > > > is you > > >> would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return > > > lines and > > >> eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel > > > lines > > >> from bleeding back to tanks when not running. > > >> Tom > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "edward_stoneuk" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi all, > > >> > > > >> > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my > two bilge > > >> > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web > page. They > > >> > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the > suction > > >> > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our > > > tanks > > >> > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > > >> > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty > lifting > > >> > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > > >> > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a > day tank, > > >> > or fuel sump cleaning. > > >> > > > >> > Thanks, > > >> > Ted > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15768|15664|2007-12-12 15:25:56|brentswain38|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|I've used a day tank for the last 23 years , no problem. I put the outlet in the middle , away from the sloshing effect in the ends. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > All the talk about diesel tanks makes me wonder on what I've done so far > with the tankage on Moonflower. > I put a baffle in the main tank but there is nothing in the day tank. > I did use gravity feed for the day tank & now find out that its not the > best way to go about it. > I will have duel filters (hot switchable) from the day tank to the engine. > I can always install a filtration system between the main & day tanks. > I did opt for having a water drain at the bottom of the main. > I am using a hand pump from the main to the day tank (not really > trusting an electric motor for that job). > All my tanks (diesel & water) have electric level sensors in them. > During my last visit to the boat I installed all the fill & vent hose > to the water tanks & the main fuel tank. > > Carl > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > Tom, crossing a bar or sailing into a steep chop will slosh up one > > heck of amount of gunk in a hurry. It's hard to keep it out of the > > tanks too. Every 3 or 4 years, I just got in the habit of cleaning the > > mains but I'm told it only takes a few weeks before the bio stuff > > starts working on your diesel. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > That does make since if you have room for the day tank. Dont you > > build in > > > baffles in the main tanks? and a filter for filling would help. > > > I cant see foaming being a big problem unless the tanks are close > > to empty? > > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "seeratlas" > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:59 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > > > > > > > > > Well....I personally like the day tank. Several big time cruising boat > > > > designers have recommended them to me and I've had one on every big > > > > sailboat I've had. Stan Huntingford advised them, as did Ted Brewer, > > > > and my Kanter built boat is designed that the top half of each tank is > > > > gravity capable...i.e., you can draw down to half of each tank whether > > > > the pumps fail or not. When I asked, it was intentional. > > > > > > > > Besides, day tanks are not just for gravity flow. If you baffle your > > > > day tank, and keep it near centerline, you won't get foamy fuel which > > > > will stop a diesel just as fast as the failure of the pump. Further, > > > > it gives you an opportunity to polish the fuel one last time as you > > > > move it from the mains to the day tank. This can come in handy if you > > > > accidentally take on some dirty fuel. > > > > > > > > Bottom line is, on a sailboat, when you need the engine, you REALLY > > > > need it...assuming you can start it, if you can keep clean non-foamy > > > > fuel headed into it, add some air and that diesel becomes damned hard > > > > to stop. > > > > > > > > As lots of people here have remarked, whether crossing a bar, or in a > > > > big seaway, assurance that you have clean-consistent fuel available is > > > > a BIGGIE. It's absolutely incredible how much gunk accumulates in the > > > > bottom of a main diesel tank. When the boat starts jumping around and > > > > all that fuel starts sloshing, that crap gets stirred up in a hurry. > > > > a line with a couple of parallel filters with valves (clean one while > > > > the other is running) running now clean fuel into a well baffled day > > > > tank is a good way to go. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Tom" wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hello Ted > > > >> I think I would take a simpler aproach and use a cheap 12v pump > > > > like Ben > > > >> was talking about, one at each tank or the tank selector switch if > > > > its close > > > >> to tanks and use them as booster pumps to the engine. The only thing > > > > is you > > > >> would allso have to run a tank selector switch for the fuel return > > > > lines and > > > >> eather one way or manual shutoff valves at tanks to keep feed fuel > > > > lines > > > >> from bleeding back to tanks when not running. > > > >> Tom > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: "edward_stoneuk" > > > >> To: > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:59 AM > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel supply to the engine > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Hi all, > > > >> > > > > >> > I have been looking into a sytem to pump the sumps out of my > > two bilge > > > >> > keels and looked at the Facet Purolator pumps on their web > > page. They > > > >> > advise that there should not be more than 12" of head on the > > suction > > > >> > side and preferably a 74 micron filter upstream of the pump. Our > > > > tanks > > > >> > are more than 12" deep so that is a bit difficult. This got me to > > > >> > thinking that the lift pump on the engine may have difficulty > > lifting > > > >> > diesel out of the keel tanks. Does anyone have any views and > > > >> > experiences of pumping fuel out of bilge tanks, the use of a > > day tank, > > > >> > or fuel sump cleaning. > > > >> > > > > >> > Thanks, > > > >> > Ted > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15769|15746|2007-12-12 15:29:36|brentswain38|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|I've washed the rust stainss off with straight hydrochloric acid in a fraction of a aseond .Immediately hit it with seawater , or the acid will stain white paint yellow. It makea a boat that has just done a long passage look fresh out of the yard , in minutes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, FINALLY got to get to work on the boat. Had been sitting under a > tree, was a real mess. yard manager told me to go to the local dollar > store and pick up a bottle of "Sno Bol" its a toilet bowl cleaner with > what appears to be hydrocloric acid in it. LOL. > > Man I had pressure washed the hell out of the deck and couldn't get > the stains out from the dirt,tree sap etc. I'd pretty much resigned > myself to sanding it out, but this stuff REALLY works. Wear rubber > gloves and shoes, it will sting you if you get it on your skin, but > takes stains off epoxy like you will not believe. Apparently is safe > on anything inorganic. pour it on, let it sit a bit, then brush it > around and voila'. > > was $1.50 a quart here. amazing stuff. > also works on old fenders, gunked up shore power cords and garden hoses. > try it. Will save you a ton of elbow grease. Don't splash it in your > eyes :) > > seer > | 15770|15770|2007-12-12 18:38:49|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|This "sno bol' stuff... hydrocloric acid you say..? What does this stuff do to the environment? Do you want to be swimming in the water into which you have just put it? If it neutralizes after contact with the atmosphere or shortly after hitting the H20 & doing it's stuff , then maybe ok, Otherwize the true cost may be WAY more than a buck & a half a quart. Curious what it might do to the eyeballs of the bloke applying it whilst he swims round the hull putting it on. and then we eat fish (read what comes around goes around) & the miriad of inter-related bio systems that make cruising what it is, are just "collateral dammage"? Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 15771|15664|2007-12-12 20:33:32|Tom|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Ok a gravity feed day tank would be the best setup, no slosh,junk, or worries about breaking suction and getting air in fuel injector. On my 26 I was thinking about setting her up for a diesel, Best I can come up with because of limited space is about a 2-1/2 gallon day tank mounted just inside companion way above engine and it has to be removable to be able to remove or install engine. electric 12v pump at main tank to a couple filters then feed into top of day tank, a return line from top of day tank back to main tank then a valve and fuel line from bottom of day tank to pump and filter on engine, return line from engine back to top of day tank. basicaly the day tank would be a closed system and vented off main tank. 12v pump not only fills tank but allso scrubs fuel in the process by returning back to main tank when day tank is full. Does this sound like a workable solution? Tom| 15772|15664|2007-12-12 22:08:48|frankandalexis|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Racor makes a filter assembly with a clear bowl with a drainage spigot that will take filters of 20 to 3 microns.| 15773|15770|2007-12-13 08:38:40|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|Hydrochloric Acid is the same acid as what is in your stomach. Strength of the "Sno-Bol" might be stronger, but if being seasick hasn't caused major environmental damage, The "Sno-Bol" shouldn't be a problem either. And yes, keep it out of your eyes. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15774|15770|2007-12-13 11:09:11|seeratlas|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|One other thing, this stuff will not only remove rust stains, it will remove rust. If you have a part, bolt, nut etc. that is rusted up maybe beyond use, let it soak in this stuff and you won't believe the result. Given enough time it will take it back to clean metal. Mechanic here says he's used it to free up threads on fittings not otherwise easily removed. All in all, handy stuff, and brent, wish you'd mentioned using it in your book !! hehehe would've saved me a couple of days of hard labor before the guys in the yard took pity on me LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > Hydrochloric Acid is the same acid as what is in your stomach. Strength of > the "Sno-Bol" might be stronger, but if being seasick hasn't caused major > environmental damage, The "Sno-Bol" shouldn't be a problem either. > And yes, keep it out of your eyes. > > > > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15775|15746|2007-12-13 12:59:03|Ben Okopnik|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 01:05:49PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > :) only 12 feet? no worries man.. just jump right in.. :) I used to > work in the water around alligators all the time... 8 ft and under I > didn't worry about.. 12 ft you were a little more careful about. If > the gator is aggressive then probably not a good idea to get in. If it > is scared of people then no worries. If it mating season (spring) then > no way no how am I going near the water :) Heck, that's no problem: you can always weld up one of these. http://www.lockmeup.com/cb/neosteel.html :))) >If baby gators are in the water no way, and hell no!!! From my last visit to the St. Augustine Alligator farm: http://okopnik.com/images/Feeding_frenzy.jpg Notice that I _wasn't_ in there feeding them by hand. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15776|15737|2007-12-13 18:48:35|peter_d_wiley|Re: sheaves and anchor rollers|Don't use roller bearings unless you also plan on putting in lipped seals and a grease nipple to keep the salt water out. Total overkill and a maintainance PITA. I'd suggest plastic oilon bushings, it's a oil impregnated plastic. Machines nicely. Just watch the fits, it swells approx 11% if continually immersed. Not likely a problem for a bow roller but you don't need fits to 0.001" either. I've used this stuff for all sorts of things; my 4m high barn doors swing on 20mm pins running in bushings made from it, for example. Personally I'd use a chunk of 75mm or 100mm OD HDPE machined on a lathe to the profile you want and running on a 20mm s/steel pin. I'd save the alumin for a job needing metal. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > No problem, > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Curious question > > Is there any reason not to use 6061 solid aluminum to make rollers > and sheaves as long as you use nylon or plastic bushings or could get > fancy and use roller bearings? > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 15777|15664|2007-12-14 04:30:14|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2007 11:04 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine Ok a gravity feed day tank would be the best setup, Tom Good plan except for one question:- How long will your proposed engine run at 75% power on the day tank if the electric (Facet - pulse???) quits? This day tank at less than 10 litres seems somewhat too small. Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15778|15746|2007-12-14 07:04:37|audeojude|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|yep i guess I forgot to mention dont go near them when they are in a feeding freenzy :) lol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 01:05:49PM -0000, audeojude wrote: > > :) only 12 feet? no worries man.. just jump right in.. :) I used to > > work in the water around alligators all the time... 8 ft and under I > > didn't worry about.. 12 ft you were a little more careful about. If > > the gator is aggressive then probably not a good idea to get in. If it > > is scared of people then no worries. If it mating season (spring) then > > no way no how am I going near the water :) > > Heck, that's no problem: you can always weld up one of these. > > http://www.lockmeup.com/cb/neosteel.html > > :))) > > >If baby gators are in the water no way, and hell no!!! > > From my last visit to the St. Augustine Alligator farm: > > http://okopnik.com/images/Feeding_frenzy.jpg > > Notice that I _wasn't_ in there feeding them by hand. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15779|15746|2007-12-14 07:20:05|Wally Paine|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Not so Nile Crocodiles. Anything over about seven feet is dangerous, above eight, a natural man eater. An uncle of mine shot a seveteen foot monster on the Zambezi above the Victoria Falls. In it's stomach were, among other things, a number of copper bangles such as are worn by the local women. It weighed over a ton and had shortly before taken an adult Braman bull. --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 01:05:49PM -0000, audeojude > wrote: > > :) only 12 feet? no worries man.. just jump right > in.. :) I used to > > work in the water around alligators all the > time... 8 ft and under I > > didn't worry about.. 12 ft you were a little more > careful about. If > > the gator is aggressive then probably not a good > idea to get in. If it > > is scared of people then no worries. If it mating > season (spring) then > > no way no how am I going near the water :) > > Heck, that's no problem: you can always weld up one > of these. > > http://www.lockmeup.com/cb/neosteel.html > > :))) > > >If baby gators are in the water no way, and hell > no!!! > > From my last visit to the St. Augustine Alligator > farm: > > http://okopnik.com/images/Feeding_frenzy.jpg > > Notice that I _wasn't_ in there feeding them by > hand. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > ___________________________________________________________ Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/| 15780|10771|2007-12-14 08:40:42|phil|Re: BS 26 progress|HI TOM regards your BS 26 how long have you been building it..........what atage are you up to..........is it an easy build.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26 progress Hello all Recieved my legal gas tank,fills, and vent and played around for hours trying to figure where to mount them legal like and keep quarter births in the picture, about the only way I can come up with it working is in the lazerett whitch would add about 300lbs at the transom, not good + you would have a heck of a time getting to the stuffing box for maintinance. Well like its said everything is a compremise . I decided to go back to the original plan of an outboard so the bracket and outboard is installed and the inboard is gone, made things much simpler and now I can finish the interior the way I want comfy and roomy. Went to the DMV and got my tags for the boat today , pretty simple one form to fill out and a copy of all reciets + $39 done deal. The only thing was because I started building Nov 05 it's a 2005 model . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/07 8:34 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15781|15664|2007-12-14 09:11:01|Tom|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|Terry, acording to Volvo the MD7A engine burns about .45 litres an hour and I have had others that ran them say about a pint an hour is all they burn. If that is true about 8 to 10 hours run time on day tank. Most your smaller hp range diesels just sip fuel,Beta's, Yanmar's. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & D Cain" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 1:29 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom > Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2007 11:04 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel supply to the engine > > Ok a gravity feed day tank would be the best setup, Tom > > Good plan except for one question:- > > How long will your proposed engine run at 75% power on the day tank if the > electric (Facet - pulse???) quits? > > This day tank at less than 10 litres seems somewhat too small. > > Terry > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15782|10771|2007-12-14 10:51:01|Tom|Re: BS 26 progress|Hello Phil I started building in Nov 05, I must be a lazy builder pretty much only work on it the weekends and if the weather is nice, been sidetracked a few times to. Is it an easy build is a tough one to awnser , depends on youre abilities, if you can measure,cut,and weld, its easy build, if not it would be a bit tricky. Last few weekends I have been working on the interior, V birth and WC is in, still a ways to go but its getten there. Tom----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 5:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] BS 26 progress > HI TOM regards your BS 26 how long have you been building > it..........what atage are you up to..........is it an easy > build.......... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:25 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26 progress > > > Hello all > Recieved my legal gas tank,fills, and vent and played around for hours > trying to figure where to mount them legal like and keep quarter births in > the picture, about the only way I can come up with it working is in the > lazerett whitch would add about 300lbs at the transom, not good + you > would have a heck of a time getting to the stuffing box for maintinance. > Well like its said everything is a compremise . I decided to go back to > the original plan of an outboard so the bracket and outboard is installed > and the inboard is gone, made things much simpler and now I can finish the > interior the way I want comfy and roomy. > Went to the DMV and got my tags for the boat today , pretty simple one > form to fill out and a copy of all reciets + $39 done deal. The only thing > was because I started building Nov 05 it's a 2005 model . > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/07 > 8:34 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15783|15783|2007-12-14 13:46:31|knutfgarshol|Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding sailing formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can fill me in: Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State registration like FL, or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does anyone know of a good source to cover just liability insurance? I will probably NOT pay insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all the usage restrictions that come with it). Your input is more than welcome!! Best regards Knut| 15784|15770|2007-12-14 13:52:21|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|No other nasties in it that will nuke everything and keep on keep on killing? Even oil & diesel gets eaten by something, like the diesel bug that gets into fuel, but there are all those little addatives that lurk, and kill. What does it say on the label??? It would be wonderful to have something like this that deals with sludge without causing further dammage. I wear no halo, sold it long ago for a pint. Maybe it's a knee jerk reaction on my part after all the environmental harm I have done in my lifetime, and maybe (hopefully) we are not past the tipping point environmentally as was announced reciently by the group of Swedish scientists. But I do remain extremely leery of any "miracle product" after all the destruction caused by the petro chemical (read military industrial complex) industry in the name of the almighty dollar and ...convinience. Cheers, Shane Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works Posted by: "TDPOPP@..." TDPOPP@... ka0tp Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:38 am (PST) Hydrochloric Acid is the same acid as what is in your stomach. Strength of the "Sno-Bol" might be stronger, but if being seasick hasn't caused major environmental damage, The "Sno-Bol" shouldn't be a problem either. And yes, keep it out of your eyes. Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 15785|15783|2007-12-14 14:11:53|Carl Anderson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Knut, That will depend on where you are going with your boat. From USA to Canada all you need is the state registration. Other countries may want to see something additional. The federal documentation is the equivalent of a passport for your boat. It establishes ownership and country of registration. Depending on what state you are in it may be less money too. In Utah there is an annual "property tax" on all boats as well as the registration fees. Federal documentation does not exempt you from the state registration requirements either. (some states will want a "use tax" to be in their waters longer than 30 days) But if you are world traveling all you will need is the federal documentation. Once documented you no longer need to display any state registration numbers on the bow. Carl S/V Moonflower of Moab knutfgarshol wrote: > > > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding sailing > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can fill me in: > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State registration like FL, > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does anyone know of a good > source to cover just liability insurance? I will probably NOT pay > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all the usage > restrictions that come with it). > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > Best regards > Knut > > | 15786|15783|2007-12-14 14:14:23|Carl Anderson|backstay insulators|I'm thinking of using a short length of 1/2" Dyneema on each end of one backstay to insulate it for antenna use. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Carl| 15787|15770|2007-12-14 14:23:10|mark hamill|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|Years ago I was introduced to a product called "Brr--Ush" with magical bristles cleverly mounted on a flat plate that when applied to a surface would remove water level slime. To keep the pesky salmon, seals amd killer whales from eating the crew as this cleaning device was used, my uncle Oscar, late of Darwin Australia used a "Croc--Not". A stick which belched forth a lead based repellant which vexed the predators sorely. All these items I have for sale--for a special price. Oh yes, and an important catalyst--"L-Bow Greece" :) Markh| 15788|15788|2007-12-14 14:33:44|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Good deal on an Engine?|Kay, I was on a friends boat last week. Its ferro cement cutter rig, 28 tons @ 50' loa. He just repowered with a 55 HP (or was it a 65 hp unit?) Izuzu diesel donk (up from a 45 hp unit). He does 6.5 knots @ 2500 rpm in a light chop with 10-15 knotts head wind. My brother in law has the Pacific Coaster. 89 feet, 290 tons that does a solid 6 knotts with a 120 hp donk. 220 hp??? There are lots of other guys on this forum that can advise you with far more technical info than I, but unless your 65 feet is super super heavy, you like exessive unneeded weight and want to spend a heap of $$ on fuel and do way more environmental dammage than is needed to get the job done... find something smaller. I don't know what Fiat diesel's are like but if you want quality & reliability, buy Japanese Shane Good Deal on Engine? Posted by: "Kay" NF4Kids@... kjackson888 Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:22 pm (PST) Hello to all, I'd like your opinion about an engine. We are considering buying an Iveco flatbed truck. Mostly we want its engine - a 1983 220 HP, inline 6, normally aspirated Fiat diesel engine with 50,000 miles on it for $2,900. After using to haul boat materials, we plan to install into our 65 foot sailboat (in the design stage and hopefully soon to begin construction. ) Do you think this engine is a good deal? Also, we know nothing about marine transmissions. Where can we find information, and what do we need to look for in a transmission for this size engine? Thanks Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 15789|15770|2007-12-14 15:07:22|Wesley Cox|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|hydrochloric acid is hydrogen chloride dissolved in water, one hydrogen atom and one chlorine. Acidity is by definition ionic hydrogen, or polarized hydrogen atoms dissolved in water. The danger of this component is the change in pH of the body of water in question. Used in large quantities by many people at the same time it could have a bad effect on a harbor. The chlorine ion has the potential to be more nasty, but not without the presence of other chemicals. In ordinary water, it will dissipate into the atmosphere in a relatively short time in the same way that before watering plants with municipal water, the water should stand in an open container for a day for the chlorine to dissipate. It isn't exactly the same in all cases, but the same concept. I believe 20% hydrochloric acid is called muriatic acid. I have "toilet bowl cleaner" that is 20% HCl. Dilute hydrochloric acid is one of the more benign useful solvents. I'm very environmentally conscious and always have been and this is one I use, your mileage may vary. Like someone said, it's the same acid that's in our stomaches. It's more concentrated, as I recall, but not by a great deal. Another way to look at it is, if you pour a pint of 20% HCl into a body of water of 1 million gallons, very small by bodies of water standards, it becomes a 0.0000025% concentration once it's dissipated, which wouldn't take long with currents and such. If you consider its potential for immediate damage to surrounding living creatures, suppose the pint more or less immediately dissipates into the 100 gallons of water that immediately surrounds the point of impact. That water is then 0.025% HCl, still very dilute. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 12:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works No other nasties in it that will nuke everything and keep on keep on killing? Even oil & diesel gets eaten by something, like the diesel bug that gets into fuel, but there are all those little addatives that lurk, and kill. What does it say on the label??? It would be wonderful to have something like this that deals with sludge without causing further dammage. I wear no halo, sold it long ago for a pint. Maybe it's a knee jerk reaction on my part after all the environmental harm I have done in my lifetime, and maybe (hopefully) we are not past the tipping point environmentally as was announced reciently by the group of Swedish scientists. But I do remain extremely leery of any "miracle product" after all the destruction caused by the petro chemical (read military industrial complex) industry in the name of the almighty dollar and ...convinience. Cheers, Shane Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works Posted by: "TDPOPP@..." TDPOPP@... ka0tp Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:38 am (PST) Hydrochloric Acid is the same acid as what is in your stomach. Strength of the "Sno-Bol" might be stronger, but if being seasick hasn't caused major environmental damage, The "Sno-Bol" shouldn't be a problem either. And yes, keep it out of your eyes. Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15790|15783|2007-12-14 16:30:40|Jim Phillips|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Knut, I am not sure which country you are from but when we were in your position (buying a used boat in the US) we transferred the registration to the UK. It was one faxed page and cost 10 pounds. As Aussies, we were going to transfer it to Australian registry but the bureaucracy was too excessive and it cost A$800. With the UK registration, this allowed us to sail to Cuba and back to the US without the problems associated with a US-registered boat. Either way, if you want to sail internationally and widely, you need to register the boat in a country, not a state. Cheers, Jim. PS. Are you the Knut Garshol who used to work at MBT? If so, we have met before to talk about shotcrete rather than boats. --- knutfgarshol wrote: > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding > sailing > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can > fill me in: > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State > registration like FL, > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does > anyone know of a good > source to cover just liability insurance? I will > probably NOT pay > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all > the usage > restrictions that come with it). > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > Best regards > Knut > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail| 15791|15783|2007-12-14 16:52:11|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi Jim, yes I am Knut Garshol and I am still with "MBT" which is now named BASF Construction Chemicals (and in between we have also been Degussa Construction Chemicals). Small world!! The reason I was looking at a Florida registration first and Norwegian Intern. Shipregister (NIS) later was just practicality, but you are right, I have to get a US federal documentation (which has to be in my wife's name since she is a citizen and I am not), or use the NIS when sailing internationally. Florida registration also bleeds me of 6% sales tax and I hope to find a way around that by other registration and limited use of the boat in FL waters. Eventually, I want to go to Norway and probably also Brasil. Federal documentation does not cost too much and the same goes for NIS. Only, NIS is complicated and time consuming, while the US federal documentation is pretty simple to get through. I am working on it. At the moment, more important: Where do you get a decent liability insurance! Thanks for the reply and stay well. Where are you sailing these days? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Phillips Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat Knut, I am not sure which country you are from but when we were in your position (buying a used boat in the US) we transferred the registration to the UK. It was one faxed page and cost 10 pounds. As Aussies, we were going to transfer it to Australian registry but the bureaucracy was too excessive and it cost A$800. With the UK registration, this allowed us to sail to Cuba and back to the US without the problems associated with a US-registered boat. Either way, if you want to sail internationally and widely, you need to register the boat in a country, not a state. Cheers, Jim. PS. Are you the Knut Garshol who used to work at MBT? If so, we have met before to talk about shotcrete rather than boats. --- knutfgarshol .net> wrote: > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding > sailing > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can > fill me in: > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State > registration like FL, > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does > anyone know of a good > source to cover just liability insurance? I will > probably NOT pay > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all > the usage > restrictions that come with it). > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > Best regards > Knut > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15792|15783|2007-12-14 18:14:35|Tom|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Knut I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value on boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada , Mexaco is a problem you have to buy insurance from a mexican insurance company to be covered south of boarder. Not sure if you can get coverage world wide. I think you can sail to other countries with state registration, I would have to on my 26 cant get US documentation under 30 feet. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Knut F Garshol" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > Hi Jim, > > > > yes I am Knut Garshol and I am still with "MBT" which is now named BASF > Construction Chemicals (and in between we have also been Degussa > Construction Chemicals). Small world!! > > > > The reason I was looking at a Florida registration first and Norwegian > Intern. Shipregister (NIS) later was just practicality, but you are right, > I > have to get a US federal documentation (which has to be in my wife's name > since she is a citizen and I am not), or use the NIS when sailing > internationally. Florida registration also bleeds me of 6% sales tax and I > hope to find a way around that by other registration and limited use of > the > boat in FL waters. Eventually, I want to go to Norway and probably also > Brasil. > > > > Federal documentation does not cost too much and the same goes for NIS. > Only, NIS is complicated and time consuming, while the US federal > documentation is pretty simple to get through. I am working on it. > > > > At the moment, more important: Where do you get a decent liability > insurance! > > > > Thanks for the reply and stay well. Where are you sailing these days? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Jim Phillips > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > > > > Knut, > > I am not sure which country you are from but when we > were in your position (buying a used boat in the US) > we transferred the registration to the UK. It was one > faxed page and cost 10 pounds. As Aussies, we were > going to transfer it to Australian registry but the > bureaucracy was too excessive and it cost A$800. With > the UK registration, this allowed us to sail to Cuba > and back to the US without the problems associated > with a US-registered boat. > > Either way, if you want to sail internationally and > widely, you need to register the boat in a country, > not a state. > > Cheers, > Jim. > > PS. Are you the Knut Garshol who used to work at MBT? > If so, we have met before to talk about shotcrete > rather than boats. > > --- knutfgarshol > .net> wrote: > >> Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding >> sailing >> formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can >> fill me in: >> >> Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State >> registration like FL, >> or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? >> >> Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does >> anyone know of a good >> source to cover just liability insurance? I will >> probably NOT pay >> insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all >> the usage >> restrictions that come with it). >> >> Your input is more than welcome!! >> >> Best regards >> Knut >> >> > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. > www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15793|15783|2007-12-14 18:44:31|seeratlas|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Knut, there is a kiwi cruiser site frequented by cruisers from everywhere that seems a good forum to check for up to date info. www.cruiser.co.za might also check cruisersforum.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding sailing > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can fill me in: > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State registration like FL, > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does anyone know of a good > source to cover just liability insurance? I will probably NOT pay > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all the usage > restrictions that come with it). > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > Best regards > Knut > | 15794|15783|2007-12-14 18:58:35|tazmannusa|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|I have to correct myself they changed the rules a bit, 5 net tons whitch is measured in the volume of the boat is the minumum for documentation, one section says around 35' and in another it says over 25' have to do the math to figure it out. anyway lots of info on this stuff from US coast guard online. Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Knut > I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value on > boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada , Mexaco is a > problem you have to buy insurance from a mexican insurance company to be > covered south of boarder. Not sure if you can get coverage world wide. > I think you can sail to other countries with state registration, I would > have to on my 26 cant get US documentation under 30 feet. > Tom | 15795|15783|2007-12-14 19:36:33|Paul Wilson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|I have a friend who just registered his boat in the UK. He said you needed a UK address to be able to do it. His son lives there so it was no problem for him. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Phillips To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:30:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat Knut, I am not sure which country you are from but when we were in your position (buying a used boat in the US) we transferred the registration to the UK. It was one faxed page and cost 10 pounds. As Aussies, we were going to transfer it to Australian registry but the bureaucracy was too excessive and it cost A$800. With the UK registration, this allowed us to sail to Cuba and back to the US without the problems associated with a US-registered boat. Either way, if you want to sail internationally and widely, you need to register the boat in a country, not a state. Cheers, Jim. PS. Are you the Knut Garshol who used to work at MBT? If so, we have met before to talk about shotcrete rather than boats. --- knutfgarshol wrote: > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding > sailing > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can > fill me in: > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State > registration like FL, > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does > anyone know of a good > source to cover just liability insurance? I will > probably NOT pay > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all > the usage > restrictions that come with it). > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > Best regards > Knut > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com. au/worldsbestema il ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15796|15783|2007-12-14 20:03:24|brentswain38|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|I've seen many boats with US state licenses cruising outside the US altho in Martinique people have encountered problems with that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Knut, there is a kiwi cruiser site frequented by cruisers from > everywhere that seems a good forum to check for up to date info. > www.cruiser.co.za > > might also check cruisersforum.com > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > > > Hi everybody with more experience than me regarding sailing > > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can fill me in: > > > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State registration like FL, > > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does anyone know of a good > > source to cover just liability insurance? I will probably NOT pay > > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all the usage > > restrictions that come with it). > > > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > | 15797|15783|2007-12-14 20:11:19|Jim Phillips|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Yes, when we did it in 2000, the regulations stated that you had to be a citizen of any Commonwealth country (Queen Lizzy to the rescue) and have a UK address. Was a very quick, simple, cheap process. --- Paul Wilson wrote: > I have a friend who just registered his boat in the > UK. He said you needed a UK address to be able to > do it. His son lives there so it was no problem for > him. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Phillips > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:30:38 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & > new boat > > Knut, > > I am not sure which country you are from but when we > were in your position (buying a used boat in the US) > we transferred the registration to the UK. It was > one > faxed page and cost 10 pounds. As Aussies, we were > going to transfer it to Australian registry but the > bureaucracy was too excessive and it cost A$800. > With > the UK registration, this allowed us to sail to Cuba > and back to the US without the problems associated > with a US-registered boat. > > Either way, if you want to sail internationally and > widely, you need to register the boat in a country, > not a state. > > Cheers, > Jim. > > PS. Are you the Knut Garshol who used to work at > MBT? > If so, we have met before to talk about shotcrete > rather than boats. > > --- knutfgarshol wrote: > > > Hi everybody with more experience than me > regarding > > sailing > > formalities within the USA. Hopefully somebody can > > fill me in: > > > > Can I sail out of US waters with a normal State > > registration like FL, > > or do I have to have a documented boat to do that? > > > > Insurance is a problem and cost a fortune. Does > > anyone know of a good > > source to cover just liability insurance? I will > > probably NOT pay > > insurance for loss or damage to the boat (with all > > the usage > > restrictions that come with it). > > > > Your input is more than welcome!! > > > > Best regards > > Knut > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the > new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com. > au/worldsbestema il > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail| 15798|15687|2007-12-14 20:11:59|brentswain38|Re: Displacement for the 40 swain design|The 40 footer is 25,000 lbs dead empty with a simple interior. Fully loaded? That depends on the owner . One will own a case of beer and a change of socks while another will make many trips with a fully loaded pickup truck to put this treasures aboard. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've heard lots of good things about that 'beke'. My 44 is at least > 10k heavier than you and according to the docs i have, Kanter's spec > (and they are a very good yard) was for "50 to 55" hp. > I think if you're careful to pitch your prop to match your max power, > you're going to be very happy with the westerbeke. Every diesel mech > I've ever talked to told me to follow the manufacturers recommendation > EXACTLY on matching the tranny and pitching the prop to get the proper > MAX rpm. In the end its all about getting the power to the water, > and more boats than you might think are waaaaay over pitched, thus > never reaching their rated power. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Well I for one can't. Sounds to me like you would be fine with it, > > so you > > > dont have a fast cruising speed under power but heck it will get > > you there > > > in the calm. Are you getting a great deal on th 42hp? and what > > would the > > > cost diferance be say going to a 55 or 60hp. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > Sounds like Tom has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. If you're > > only using it for docking and when becalmed it may be big enough, I > > think you are the ONLY person who can truly answer that question > > though. Some type A people "can't" or won't wait for favorable tides > > etc. and some people like the extra power "just in case". It sounds > > to me that you'd be fine with the 42hp though. > > > > As also mentioned above, what are the cost differences? I have a 50hp > > for my 36 ft. boat but it is "probably" too big. It's not 50 hp > > continuous though (that'd be huge.?) and I got a deal on it. It is > > light weight and compact for that power range so it's like having a > > smaller engine, physically. Otherwise I'd think a 30-40 hp would've > > sufficed. Hope his helps. > > > > Cheers, Rowland > > > > PS Tom I have baffles in my regular tanks and my day tank. Haven't > > figured out where all my filters will eventually go. :) yet. > > > | 15799|15783|2007-12-14 20:26:13|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Seer it is a South African site www.cruiser.co.za the za is South Africa. New Zealand is NZ. :-) seeratlas wrote: > Knut, there is a kiwi cruiser site frequented by cruisers from > everywhere that seems a good forum to check for up to date info. > www.cruiser.co.za > > Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15800|15783|2007-12-14 21:02:44|seeratlas|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|ahhhh, I just thought that because there are so many aussies and kiwi's on the board, brain short circuited to nz :) heheheh you wouldn't happen to know how South Africa became 'za' would you? not entirely intuitive :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Seer it is a South African site > > www.cruiser.co.za the za is South Africa. New Zealand is NZ. :-) > > > seeratlas wrote: > > Knut, there is a kiwi cruiser site frequented by cruisers from > > everywhere that seems a good forum to check for up to date info. > > www.cruiser.co.za > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 15801|15783|2007-12-14 21:53:18|sae140|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Yes, when we did it in 2000, the regulations stated > that you had to be a citizen of any Commonwealth > country (Queen Lizzy to the rescue) and have a UK > address. Was a very quick, simple, cheap process. > > --- Paul Wilson wrote: > > > I have a friend who just registered his boat in the > > UK. He said you needed a UK address to be able to > > do it. His son lives there so it was no problem for > > him. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > There's a bit more to it than that - at least in principle. The owner of the vessel needs to be ordinarily resident(1) in the UK and either a) a British Citizen, b) an EU national established(2) in the UK, c) a British Oveseas Citizen (Hong Kong etc), or d) a Commonwealth Citizen. (1) "Ordinarily resident" means living and sleeping in the UK for 185 days in any 12 months (exactly how you're supposed to do that if on a world cruise is beyond me !), or be declared resident in the UK for tax purposes. (2) "Established" means being employed or retired in the UK. Those is "the SSR eligibility rules". Forms can be downloaded from the MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) site or from: http://www.ukshipregister.co.uk/ukr-home/pleasurecraft-smallships.htm The cost is £12 for 5 years by postal application, or £25 if you apply on-line. And no - I don't understand that either ... Colin| 15802|15783|2007-12-14 22:02:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 12:11:52PM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > Knut, > > That will depend on where you are going with your boat. > From USA to Canada all you need is the state registration. > Other countries may want to see something additional. In my experience, customs and/or immigration in most countries outside the First World bunch are extremely hazy on what constitutes proper registration elsewhere - unsurprisingly so, since it would require encyclopedic amounts of knowledge which would have to be updated constantly. As a result, pretty much anything official-looking is good enough. :) > The federal documentation is the equivalent of a passport for your boat. Um... sort of. At a cost. My previous boat was documented; the requirements for maintaining that status were far more stringent, annoying, and nitpicky than just having the registration. In addition, the USCG - which has a very strong presence in many places outside the US, e.g. all over the Caribbean - has zero compunctions about hassling a documented boat vs. a registered one, since they figure that you have something to lose (i.e., the documented status - which would be critical to, say, a commercial fishing vessel.) My life in that regard became much easier once I let "Recessional" go out of documented status - the USCG, for one, started asking for permission to come aboard and addressing me as "sir" when they did. You know, the way they would an actual human being. Oh, and by the way: there's a choice bit of hell waiting for anyone who wants to document a non-US-built boat. I remember "Canadian-built" being mentioned in the paperwork as a specific example of those for whom the rack, the thumbscrew, and the heated irons have been reserved. I've been through it - "Recessional" was built in France - and I don't recommend it to anyone but a masochist. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15803|15783|2007-12-14 22:14:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 02:02:42AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > ahhhh, I just thought that because there are so many aussies and > kiwi's on the board, brain short circuited to nz :) heheheh > you wouldn't happen to know how South Africa became 'za' would you? > not entirely intuitive :) The ISO3166 standard, which defines the 2- and the 3-letter codes for domains, registered 'sa' for Saudi Arabia (entry #682). By the time they got around to South Africa (entry #710), they needed something else - so they went with (I'm guessing here) the old Dutch version, "Zuid-Afrika". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15804|15783|2007-12-14 22:19:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:14:41PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Knut > I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value on > boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada [blink] Last time I talked to BoatUS, they told me outright "We don't insure steel boats, and don't know anyone who does." Tom, if you still have the name or contact info of the person you spoke to, please forward it to me - I'd love to get that kind of rate. It would make hauling out _much_ easier. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15805|15664|2007-12-14 22:36:57|T & D Cain|Re: Diesel supply to the engine|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom -----Terry, acording to Volvo the MD7A engine burns about .45 litres an hour Tom I have a small single cylinder Yanmar which claims to run at about 215 grams per HP per hour which amounts to about a litre per hour for its 4HP output. Admittedly this is a 20 year-old design, but does well on its roller bearing crankshaft as far as efficiency goes. The actual seems close to the claimed rate. The smaller the engine the more the overheads eat fuel. Much of the claimed SFC for small non-turbo / non-common-rail diesels is in the 200 to 250 g/hp/hr. If your 13HP MD7A needed to output say, 8HP, I would have expected an actual consumption of around 1.5 litres per hour. There are plenty of boats using these engines who report close to the 1litre mark, so the circumstances are variable with hull design and conditions and usage. The Facit (not facet as I typed before) pump is usually reliable and draws little current, but I think it's wise to have a manual fill backup. Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15806|15783|2007-12-14 23:05:34|Tom|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Ben I did it online and it was a link from west marine. They did send me a phone# to call with the quote (800) 283-2883. On my quote they required a value servey and hull ID# then they would insure it. Hope its not one of those deals that they missed the part about it being a steel hull. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:14:41PM -0800, Tom wrote: >> Knut >> I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value >> on >> boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada > > [blink] Last time I talked to BoatUS, they told me outright "We don't > insure steel boats, and don't know anyone who does." Tom, if you still > have the name or contact info of the person you spoke to, please forward > it to me - I'd love to get that kind of rate. It would make hauling out > _much_ easier. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15807|15577|2007-12-15 01:13:13|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: condensation|http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:gnQxtzKAcVoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point+dew+point&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca Condensation [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15808|15577|2007-12-15 01:13:19|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: condensation|http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:gnQxtzKAcVoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point+dew+point&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca Condensation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1141 - Release Date: 11/20/2007 11:34 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15809|15783|2007-12-15 02:19:59|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi Seer, I see Ole Uncle Ben beat me to it :-) His right and indeed the ZA refers to the Dutch Zuid Africa. Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 02:02:42AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > >> ahhhh, I just thought that because there are so many aussies and >> kiwi's on the board, brain short circuited to nz :) heheheh >> you wouldn't happen to know how South Africa became 'za' would you? >> not entirely intuitive :) >> > > The ISO3166 standard, which defines the 2- and the 3-letter codes for > domains, registered 'sa' for Saudi Arabia (entry #682). By the time they > got around to South Africa (entry #710), they needed something else - so > they went with (I'm guessing here) the old Dutch version, "Zuid-Afrika". > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15810|15746|2007-12-15 10:54:39|audeojude|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > Not so Nile Crocodiles. Anything over about seven feet > is dangerous, above eight, a natural man eater. An > uncle of mine shot a seveteen foot monster on the > Zambezi above the Victoria Falls. In it's stomach > were, among other things, a number of copper bangles > such as are worn by the local women. > > It weighed over a ton and had shortly before taken an > adult Braman bull. > interesting statistics... everyone gets all freaky about sharks... world wide on a bad year there might be around 250 reported shark attacks. On a good year it is down in the double digits. people are not necessarily killed but just get a bite taken out in most of these. crocodiles account for more than 1000 confirmed deaths every years world wide and a lot more suspected deaths... if one gets you then you pretty much just disappear. gulp gulp :) mmmmm mmmm good.. soft on the outside with just a bit of crunch on the inside :)| 15811|15811|2007-12-15 14:07:29|cptcrunch100|Coatings for inside of skeg cooler|All of you B.S. owners will have to excuse this intrusion from an alternate steel boat owner. I have been adapting Brent bits to Slade Green, 30 foot version of a Balfor design and it has come time to change to a b.s. skeg and rudder. Do any of you use an epoxy or anything inside of the skeg to keep impurities or rust bits from the entering the cooling system. You know the saying, "rust like a cancer grows". Christophe J.Greve S.V. Slade Green currently in Mex where the sandblasting is cheap| 15812|15811|2007-12-15 14:25:19|brentswain38|Re: Coatings for inside of skeg cooler|With 50 % antifreeze and no outside source of oxygen , corrosion is not a problem. I do as much work as possible, and give it a few good whacks to help any bits fall out,before puting the bottom on,letting all the bits and pieces drop out before putting the bottom on. I also use a pump guard screen in the return line going to the engine. I've never had a problem nor reason to worry about coating the inside of the skeg. If coatings began to break down, leaving chips in the coolant , that would cause far more problems than it would solve. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > All of you B.S. owners will have to excuse this intrusion from an > alternate steel boat owner. I have been adapting Brent bits to Slade > Green, 30 foot version of a Balfor design and it has come time to > change to a b.s. skeg and rudder. Do any of you use an epoxy or > anything inside of the skeg to keep impurities or rust bits from the > entering the cooling system. You know the saying, "rust like a > cancer grows". > > Christophe J.Greve > S.V. Slade Green > currently in Mex where the sandblasting is cheap > | 15813|15770|2007-12-15 14:28:31|cptcrunch100|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|I may sound just stupid but "Fantastic" does just about everything for me. Slade Green sat at the end of the runway in SanDiego for 6 months then Ensenada for 2 more months. Between the jet exhaust and the sepia dust my boats stainless steel rigging took on a black hockey tape look. If that doen't work MEK is the ultimate. Fantastic is kitchen cleaner that comes in a spray bottle.| 15814|15783|2007-12-15 14:31:22|brentswain38|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|I've heard most insurance companies prefer steel boats. Do they insist freighters and tugs be built out of fibreglas, or red cedar? I wouldn't want to do business with anyone that dense. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:14:41PM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Knut > > I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value on > > boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada > > [blink] Last time I talked to BoatUS, they told me outright "We don't > insure steel boats, and don't know anyone who does." Tom, if you still > have the name or contact info of the person you spoke to, please forward > it to me - I'd love to get that kind of rate. It would make hauling out > _much_ easier. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15815|15770|2007-12-15 15:09:18|richard barwell|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works|Has anyone used hydrochloric on polyester resin or gelcoat? Any issues? Have used oxalic acid on a friends boat. ___________________________________________________________ Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/| 15816|15783|2007-12-15 16:09:26|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, connected to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat I've heard most insurance companies prefer steel boats. Do they insist freighters and tugs be built out of fibreglas, or red cedar? I wouldn't want to do business with anyone that dense. brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:14:41PM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Knut > > I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and low value on > > boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada > > [blink] Last time I talked to BoatUS, they told me outright "We don't > insure steel boats, and don't know anyone who does." Tom, if you still > have the name or contact info of the person you spoke to, please forward > it to me - I'd love to get that kind of rate. It would make hauling out > _much_ easier. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15817|15817|2007-12-15 17:28:58|jonathanswef|Bow Roller|Brent, Do you have a preferred profile for a bow roller? I finally sourced a length of 100mm dia HDPE and am keen to get it on the lathe... Thanks. Jonathan| 15818|15783|2007-12-15 19:36:54|Tom|Re: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Knut Thats strange, Im wondering why they would quote you so high and mine so low, mabee the diferance is mine is a trailer sailer sliped at home and they have my cruising area US Pacific coastal waters. The fuel and other spill coverage was a shocker to me to . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Knut F Garshol" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat >I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add > $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be > negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, > connected > to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane > nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 2:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > > > > I've heard most insurance companies prefer steel boats. Do they > insist freighters and tugs be built out of fibreglas, or red cedar? > I wouldn't want to do business with anyone that dense. > brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:14:41PM -0800, Tom wrote: >> > Knut >> > I got a quote through Boat US and for $300,000 liability and > low value on >> > boat was quoted $120.00 a year This was for US and Canada >> >> [blink] Last time I talked to BoatUS, they told me outright "We > don't >> insure steel boats, and don't know anyone who does." Tom, if you > still >> have the name or contact info of the person you spoke to, please > forward >> it to me - I'd love to get that kind of rate. It would make > hauling out >> _much_ easier. >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15819|15783|2007-12-15 20:16:29|Paul Wilson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|A general comment to noone in particular, I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another anchor or something which is really important. Cheers, Paul I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, connected to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. Knut ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15820|15783|2007-12-15 20:29:30|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Paul, I see your point and what I am looking at and trying to arrange now is liability insurance. But not at any price! In a worst case, if they come after me with a million dollar claim, there is nothing to be had anyway, so forget about that. I am still hoping for a decent price liability insurance, because there are marinas around that will require proof of such insurance before they allow you to enter. Often you may be able to anchor out and save the marina fee, but to have the option to go in is certainly also good. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat A general comment to noone in particular, I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another anchor or something which is really important. Cheers, Paul I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, connected to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. Knut __________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15821|15783|2007-12-15 20:30:53|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Does anybody here really want insurance to cover their own boat, or to cover the dent your iron boat makes in the $500,000 milk bottle swinging on the anchor next to you? Your boat isn't damaged, but you have to sell it to pay for the damage. Bummer. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat >A general comment to noone in particular, > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was only > because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and liability in > a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had insurance for > the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost spent enough money > to buy another boat. I have seen people throw money into insurance but > have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor lines. Their priorities are > all screwed up. My thinking has been to take the money instead and buy > some safety equipment like another anchor or something which is really > important. > > Cheers, Paul > > > I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add > $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be > negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, > connected > to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane > nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. > > Knut > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 15822|15783|2007-12-15 21:09:45|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > A general comment to noone in particular, > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > anchor or something which is really important. That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul me.) In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands of dollars over the long haul. [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut people slack in this regard. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15823|15823|2007-12-16 02:01:41|ndr_jenna|Husband pounding wife's pussy in hotel room video !!|Husband pounding wife's pussy in hotel room video !! Play Download ________________________ Horny Arab couple fucking in bedroom video !! Play Download EARN UNLIMITED - 100% FREE FILE HOSTING !! Upload Upload your Photos, Videos, Audios and Documents. Unlimited Uploads! Share Be it passion for photography or love for videos; here is super-easy to share all that you have! Earn Get paid every time others download your videos or photos or documents . 1ST TIME IN THE WORLD-WORLD'S BIGGEST SITE FOR YOU ! While HOSTING ( UPLOADING-SHARING FILES) We can EARN Here we can make ALBUMS ( VIDEO-AUDIO-IMAGES-PHOTOS-N-ANYTHING). EACH VIEW-CLICK CAN BE PAID HOST MANY FILES GET MORE INCOME START EARNING $ $ $ $ $ $ REGISTER NOW ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15824|15783|2007-12-16 02:26:01|Paul Wilson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi Ben, I admit I am fonder of bilge keels after paying for haul-outs and poor anti-fouling paint that needs to be applied sooner than it should. I have a fin keeler but I am hoping to do my own beach haulouts like the bilge keelers with the sheer legs I have made. I think it should work out OK but will let everyone know in a year or two when I give it a try. I hope I don't end up showing pictures of my boat laying on its side. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:09:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > A general comment to noone in particular, > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > anchor or something which is really important. That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul me.) In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands of dollars over the long haul. [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut people slack in this regard. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15826|15783|2007-12-16 09:27:25|Ben Okopnik|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi, Paul - On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 11:26:00PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I admit I am fonder of bilge keels after paying for haul-outs and poor > anti-fouling paint that needs to be applied sooner than it should. Cool - you spelled "I'm envious" the same way I would! :) Seriously, I can see how you'd almost completely avoid haulouts with bilge keels. Ulysses is a single-keeler, but the base is really wide; heck, at one point, I was *trying* to careen it by winching on a line that I ran off abeam, and it wouldn't lay over. My wife has called it "The Weebleboat" ever since. http://okopnik.com/lf/galleries/Ulysses/large/p9230180.jpg > I > have a fin keeler but I am hoping to do my own beach haulouts like the > bilge keelers with the sheer legs I have made. I think it should work > out OK but will let everyone know in a year or two when I give it a > try. I hope I don't end up showing pictures of my boat laying on its > side. Just laying on a side wouldn't be a problem, Paul. The problem would be if it THUMPED down onto that side [wince]... Best of luck with those sheer legs! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 15827|15783|2007-12-16 09:30:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat|On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 08:05:25PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Ben > I did it online and it was a link from west marine. They did send me a > phone# to call with the quote (800) 283-2883. On my quote they required a > value servey and hull ID# then they would insure it. Hope its not one of > those deals that they missed the part about it being a steel hull. Thanks, Tom. I'm actually hoping that my experience was a case of a totally clueless agent, and yours was their actual policy. I guess I'll find out one way or the other the next time the question comes up. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15828|15746|2007-12-16 10:06:44|James Pronk|Re: Deck/Boat Cleaner--it really works :)|Well, I think I would want a hard dinghy if traveling in waters with crocodiles, and a bloody big one at that! > > interesting statistics... > everyone gets all freaky about sharks... world wide on a bad year > there might be around 250 reported shark attacks. On a good year it > is down in the double digits. people are not necessarily killed but > just get a bite taken out in most of these. > > crocodiles account for more than 1000 confirmed deaths every years > world wide and a lot more suspected deaths... if one gets you then you > pretty much just disappear. gulp gulp :) mmmmm mmmm good.. soft on the > outside with just a bit of crunch on the inside :) > | 15829|15783|2007-12-16 14:36:04|TDPOPP@aol.com|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Getting Liability Insurance because a marina wants it can be a pain if it isn't a Bleach bottle. I was looking at using a 47' Ferro-cement boat as a live-aboard (Dock Queen) and contacted BoatUS for just Liability. On the application I listed my 35 years sailing experience and in sizes ranging up to and including a 80' boat* *(30 minutes steering the 80' but they didn't ask amount of time in size ) >RE: Marine Insurance Request for Quotation #9098189 > 1978 Custom 47’ >Dear Mr. Popp: >Thank you for your interest in the BoatU.S. Marine Insurance Program. >Unfortunately, your request for coverage does not fit within the underwriting limits governing the >Association’s program due to lack of experience. >Diane Snyder >Underwriter As I have found with Auto insurance in Oregon, they check your Credit Rating as a basis, not your experience. I had some "issues" a few years ago with my Credit and then quoted rates went up by 5 times what I was getting from my present Insurance. Fortunately my current insurance rate didn't change but if they ever dropped me.....Ouch! If an Insurance company gives you a very HIGH rate or refuses you insurance, it may not be for the reason you think. Tom Popp **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15830|15783|2007-12-17 09:16:55|seeratlas|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Ben, re green cove, they have yard insurance but I havn't heard of anyone being hauled being asked for proof of insurance on their boat so can't say for sure. I can ask when I thaw out this morning tho :) HEHEHEH seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A general comment to noone in particular, > > > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > > anchor or something which is really important. > > That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of > the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. > However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a > number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: > no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a > hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it > because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I > hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the > period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just > laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a > fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul > me.) > > In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, > you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ > fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands > of dollars over the long haul. > > > [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut > people slack in this regard. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15831|15831|2007-12-17 12:22:03|seeratlas|Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove?|Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure you get into the *loop* early. :) seer| 15832|15831|2007-12-17 13:10:13|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove?|seer, the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time Green Cove in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the way to Ft Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time constraints in January. (I have informed Crystal). Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure you get into the *loop* early. :) seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15833|15831|2007-12-17 21:07:33|seeratlas|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove?|well too bad I'll miss you and your boat. Lauderdale not all that much farther down the coast tho. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time Green Cove > in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. > > > > Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the way to Ft > Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time constraints in > January. (I have informed Crystal). > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? > > > > Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are > supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and > you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. > Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure > you get into the *loop* early. :) > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15834|15831|2007-12-17 21:54:39|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Gr|seer, sorry about that. I hope you and anyone else on the Forum who comes by S. Florida will tell me in advance so we can get together and talk boats and go sailing if possible! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? well too bad I'll miss you and your boat. Lauderdale not all that much farther down the coast tho. seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time Green Cove > in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. > > > > Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the way to Ft > Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time constraints in > January. (I have informed Crystal). > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? > > > > Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are > supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and > you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. > Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure > you get into the *loop* early. :) > > seer > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15835|15831|2007-12-18 17:03:59|seeratlas|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green |Knut, where you going to go first? you going to be around till january? I've got to run to Minnesota then back to Arkansas, but will back after xmas. I'd like to meet you and see your boat, and there's a fellow down in lauderdale i'd like to go meet anyway :). seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > sorry about that. I hope you and anyone else on the Forum who comes by S. > Florida will tell me in advance so we can get together and talk boats and go > sailing if possible! > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:08 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green > Cove? > > > > well too bad I'll miss you and your boat. Lauderdale not all that much > farther down the coast tho. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > seer, > > > > > > > > the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time > Green Cove > > in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. > > > > > > > > Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the > way to Ft > > Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time > constraints in > > January. (I have informed Crystal). > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? > > > > > > > > Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are > > supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and > > you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. > > Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure > > you get into the *loop* early. :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15836|15831|2007-12-18 18:13:56|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitt|seer, I do not know yet which day in January the truck will arrive in Ft Lauderdale, but it should be the first week of the month. From the marina I have just a short trip up the New River to my dock. I live just 20 minutes away from the dock in Hallandale Beach and I am not going anywhere with the boat near term other than in the area. I need to learn the ins and outs of the boat before making any bigger plans. My cellphone is: 786 200 2292 Happy Christmas to you all! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? Knut, where you going to go first? you going to be around till january? I've got to run to Minnesota then back to Arkansas, but will back after xmas. I'd like to meet you and see your boat, and there's a fellow down in lauderdale i'd like to go meet anyway :). seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > sorry about that. I hope you and anyone else on the Forum who comes by S. > Florida will tell me in advance so we can get together and talk boats and go > sailing if possible! > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:08 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green > Cove? > > > > well too bad I'll miss you and your boat. Lauderdale not all that much > farther down the coast tho. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > seer, > > > > > > > > the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time > Green Cove > > in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. > > > > > > > > Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the > way to Ft > > Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time > constraints in > > January. (I have informed Crystal). > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green Cove? > > > > > > > > Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are > > supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and > > you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. > > Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure > > you get into the *loop* early. :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15837|15831|2007-12-18 18:42:53|seeratlas|[SPAM][SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting |Way cool, the original owner of my boat is down there and asked me to drop by and say 'hi' so will be a good trip all the way around :) have a good xmas too and same to all the board :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > seer, > > > > I do not know yet which day in January the truck will arrive in Ft > Lauderdale, but it should be the first week of the month. From the marina I > have just a short trip up the New River to my dock. I live just 20 minutes > away from the dock in Hallandale Beach and I am not going anywhere with the > boat near term other than in the area. I need to learn the ins and outs of > the boat before making any bigger plans. > > > > My cellphone is: 786 200 2292 > > > > Happy Christmas to you all! > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:04 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting > Green Cove? > > > > Knut, where you going to go first? you going to be around till > january? I've got to run to Minnesota then back to Arkansas, but will > back after xmas. I'd like to meet you and see your boat, and there's a > fellow down in lauderdale i'd like to go meet anyway :). > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > seer, > > > > > > > > sorry about that. I hope you and anyone else on the Forum who comes > by S. > > Florida will tell me in advance so we can get together and talk > boats and go > > sailing if possible! > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:08 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat > hitting Green > > Cove? > > > > > > > > well too bad I'll miss you and your boat. Lauderdale not all that much > > farther down the coast tho. > > > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, > > "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > > > > > seer, > > > > > > > > > > > > the trucking company had to change drivers. Result: Arrival time > > Green Cove > > > in the marina vacation period after 23 Dec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Solution: Receive boat in January in Green Cove, or truck all the > > way to Ft > > > Lauderdale. I had to choose the last option because of time > > constraints in > > > January. (I have informed Crystal). > > > > > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:22 PM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Knut, when's your boat hitting Green > Cove? > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject says it all. Have you heard from the driver as to when you are > > > supposed to be able to launch? Was talking to crystal this morning and > > > you need to give them a head's up on what your expected timing is. > > > Boats going in and coming out of the water like crazy here. Be sure > > > you get into the *loop* early. :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15838|15838|2007-12-18 18:51:00|knutfgarshol|BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Can anyone direct me how to get an autopilot system installed with the above starting point? I could use a windvane by de-coupling the link between the hydraulic ram that operates the very short tiller (to release the tiller), but it is not really tempting, because each time I would want to use the wheel, I would have to connect the two again. What I hope is possible is a device operating the hydraulic wheel system, coupled to the GPS for course control. Has anyone heard about such a system either commercial or self-built? Knut| 15839|15838|2007-12-18 19:35:17|Joe Earsley|Re: BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Knut, Could you install a bypass around the steering pump with a solenoid valve and then still use the trim tab steering vane? The idea would be to flip a switch or even manually open a valve to open the steering pump bypass whenever you engage the trim tab. This could happen very close to your rams so you could minimize the resistance and damping. It was what I was going to do before I bought my tiller boat. Cheers, Alaska joe -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of knutfgarshol Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 2:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Can anyone direct me how to get an autopilot system installed with the above starting point? I could use a windvane by de-coupling the link between the hydraulic ram that operates the very short tiller (to release the tiller), but it is not really tempting, because each time I would want to use the wheel, I would have to connect the two again. What I hope is possible is a device operating the hydraulic wheel system, coupled to the GPS for course control. Has anyone heard about such a system either commercial or self-built? Knut To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 15840|15811|2007-12-18 21:03:32|kingsknight4life|Re: Coatings for inside of skeg cooler|Hi Christopher You said that you're currently in Mexico where the sandblasting is cheap. Exactly how cheap is it? I might be able to finish the inside of my boat here in BC then put on a "cheap" paint and sail it to Meico to get blasted and painted?? thanks Rowland > > > | 15841|15811|2007-12-18 21:54:39|cptcrunch100|Re: Coatings for inside of skeg cooler|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi Christopher > > You said that you're currently in Mexico where the sandblasting is > cheap. Exactly how cheap is it? I might be able to finish the inside > of my boat here in BC then put on a "cheap" paint and sail it to Meico > to get blasted and painted?? > > thanks Rowland > > > > > > Ya man San Carlos/ Gyumas Sonora. I had my boat blasted over 5 days, total cost for blasting $500 usd. It's also a great place to epoxy coat because most days have less than 15% humidity and beer is way cheap. Bring your own paint.| 15842|15838|2007-12-18 22:55:43|Paul J. Thompson|Re: BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Hi Knut, Plumbing an autopilot into a hydraulic steering system is very easy and simple. I have (I think) the same or aver similar set up to what you likely do have. A small tiller user to connect the windvane to the rudder (and also part of the emergency steering set up) a hydraulic wheel and a Cape Horn windvane. First, when you buy the pump for the autopilot make sure that it has enough capacity to be able to drive your rudder from hard a port to hard a starboard in 8 to 12 seconds. 8 is better than 12. If the rudder takes to long to respond, your course downwind in any kind of a seaway will be snaky and when under sail (Spinnaker) you will be risking a broach. Not the kind of fun you want when single handing (me mostly) or are short handed. The above applies equally to non hydraulic systems of cause. Then as far as the plumbing goes, put a bypass valve between the two hoses that connect to the ram (cylinder). The bypass is just a ball valve but make sure that it is rated for the pressure that the system must handle. On my boat, this valve is manual as I can easily reach it from my helm (the rudder is outboard and the ram mounted on deck) but you could easily use a solenoid to make it remotely operated if you need. What you do want to do is make sure that you use the largest possible diameter tubing for your bypass circuit because even though the circuit is open when you use the windvane there is resistance caused by the ram still having to move fluid from one side of the piston to the other and the higher this resistance is, the less free the rudder will move. On La Chica I have used 1/2 inch copper tube and it has been OK. Lastly to put the boat under the control of the windvane, I follow the procedure below. 1. Steer the boat onto the desired course 2. Engage autopilot and let settle 3. I go to the little tiller and connect the windvane 4. Open the bypass valve (this automatically takes the auto pilot out of the system). 5. Go to the helm and shut down the autopilot. I have sailed with the above system for the last 12 years and I am very happy with it. If I will not sail without a top notch autopilot and windvane. They are expensive but in my opinion, worth every single cent that they cost. If you need more info, please do not hesitate to ask. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) knutfgarshol wrote: > Can anyone direct me how to get an autopilot system installed with the > above starting point? I could use a windvane by de-coupling the link > between the hydraulic ram that operates the very short tiller (to > release the tiller), but it is not really tempting, because each time > I would want to use the wheel, I would have to connect the two again. > > What I hope is possible is a device operating the hydraulic wheel > system, coupled to the GPS for course control. Has anyone heard about > such a system either commercial or self-built? > | 15843|15838|2007-12-18 23:07:06|Paul J. Thompson|Re: BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC - PS:|Knut, Put the bypass valve as close to the ram as possible, so as to keep the path that the fluid must flow as short as possible. In my case, I have mounted the bypass valve on the ram it's self. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15844|15838|2007-12-19 09:09:33|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Hi Paul, thanks a lot for very useful information. I need a little clarification if you don't mind to make sure I am on the right track: 1. You have a hydraulic autopilot that is plumbed into your hydraulic wheel steering system? The autopilot is a hydraulic pump governed by either your compass or your gps. This pump (when on autopilot) is replacing the pump powered by your wheel when in manual steering? The autopilot pump is electric powered I assume. How much electric energy does it typically consume? Could you give details about the manufacturers of the components? Where to buy, what to buy etc? 2. You also have a windvane steering which is totally separate from the wheel steering and the autopilot. When the windvane is steering the boat, all hydraulic systems are depowered by the free flow of oil through the bypass valve and the windvane is steering mechanically. (Will a windvane be powerful enough to operate a tiller steering when the tiller arm is just about 30 cm long?). Best regards Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Hi Knut, Plumbing an autopilot into a hydraulic steering system is very easy and simple. I have (I think) the same or aver similar set up to what you likely do have. A small tiller user to connect the windvane to the rudder (and also part of the emergency steering set up) a hydraulic wheel and a Cape Horn windvane. First, when you buy the pump for the autopilot make sure that it has enough capacity to be able to drive your rudder from hard a port to hard a starboard in 8 to 12 seconds. 8 is better than 12. If the rudder takes to long to respond, your course downwind in any kind of a seaway will be snaky and when under sail (Spinnaker) you will be risking a broach. Not the kind of fun you want when single handing (me mostly) or are short handed. The above applies equally to non hydraulic systems of cause. Then as far as the plumbing goes, put a bypass valve between the two hoses that connect to the ram (cylinder). The bypass is just a ball valve but make sure that it is rated for the pressure that the system must handle. On my boat, this valve is manual as I can easily reach it from my helm (the rudder is outboard and the ram mounted on deck) but you could easily use a solenoid to make it remotely operated if you need. What you do want to do is make sure that you use the largest possible diameter tubing for your bypass circuit because even though the circuit is open when you use the windvane there is resistance caused by the ram still having to move fluid from one side of the piston to the other and the higher this resistance is, the less free the rudder will move. On La Chica I have used 1/2 inch copper tube and it has been OK. Lastly to put the boat under the control of the windvane, I follow the procedure below. 1. Steer the boat onto the desired course 2. Engage autopilot and let settle 3. I go to the little tiller and connect the windvane 4. Open the bypass valve (this automatically takes the auto pilot out of the system). 5. Go to the helm and shut down the autopilot. I have sailed with the above system for the last 12 years and I am very happy with it. If I will not sail without a top notch autopilot and windvane. They are expensive but in my opinion, worth every single cent that they cost. If you need more info, please do not hesitate to ask. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) knutfgarshol wrote: > Can anyone direct me how to get an autopilot system installed with the > above starting point? I could use a windvane by de-coupling the link > between the hydraulic ram that operates the very short tiller (to > release the tiller), but it is not really tempting, because each time > I would want to use the wheel, I would have to connect the two again. > > What I hope is possible is a device operating the hydraulic wheel > system, coupled to the GPS for course control. Has anyone heard about > such a system either commercial or self-built? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15845|15845|2007-12-19 12:15:31|seeratlas|Anchor Windlass|Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. thanks in advance seer| 15846|15845|2007-12-19 12:22:08|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|One other thing, are you guys using a pressure plate of some kind to make sure the cable winds up straight and tight on the winch? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > thanks in advance > > seer > | 15847|15838|2007-12-19 14:55:30|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Hi Knut, see my reply's below > 1. You have a hydraulic autopilot that is plumbed into your hydraulic > wheel steering system? Yes The autopilot is a hydraulic pump governed by either > your compass or your gps. Yes This pump (when on autopilot) is replacing the > pump powered by your wheel when in manual steering? Yes The autopilot pump is > electric powered I assume. How much electric energy does it typically > consume? It depends :-) but seems to average around 4amps. Under power consumption is of cause no consideration and that is mostly how I use it. Down wind and quartering seas will drive consumption up on the other hand sailing upwind with the boat properly balanced, I have seen to consumption drop to 2 amps and less because the unit is doing hardly any work. Could you give details about the manufacturers of the components? http://www.autonav.com/html/anav4000.htm http://www.coursemaster.com/autopilots/CM800.htm http://www.coursemaster.com/autopilots/CM850.htm http://www.raymarine.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTion=2&Page=89&Parent=5 Autonav and Coursemaster are the way I would go (specifically Coursemaster CM800 or the Autonav 1500) if I were buying today but be warned good autopilots are not cheap. The Autonav page has a lot of info that is well worth reading. > Where to buy, what to buy etc? See the above. You will need an autopilot, that will come with the control head, compass, rudder position indicator and on some models a rate gyro. You will need to add a cylinder/ram (if you do not already have) an electric pump for the autopilot (some i.e. Coursemaster come with a pump) and a manual pump for the wheel (if you do not already have) see: http://www.coursemaster.com/hydrive/heavy_duty.htm http://www.hydrive.com.au/site/product-cs.html http://www.autonav.com/html/anav4003.htm Assorted tubing, hose, valve and fittings to put it all together. You will need to size the pump to suit the ram as I have exsplaned in my first post. If you have not already done it you will also have to size the ram to to the rudder area. If you need more info on how this all goes together, let me know. > 2. You also have a windvane steering which is totally separate from the > wheel steering and the autopilot. Yes When the windvane is steering the boat, > all hydraulic systems are depowered by the free flow of oil through the > bypass valve and the windvane is steering mechanically. Yes (Will a windvane be > powerful enough to operate a tiller steering when the tiller arm is just > about 30 cm long?). Depends on your windvane. If you are using Brent's design then the length of the tiller arm will not come into it. The Capehorn http://www.capehorn.com unit (possibly the best commercial vane available) likely will not have a problem, though mine is connected at 500mm. A pendulum servo windvane is an incredibly powerful thing. You cannot stop it turning with your hands if the boat has any way on it. > Hope the above all helps. Feel free to ask if to need more info. I would post pictures of my setup but cannot do so just yet as the boat is completny stripped down as I am in the middle of a major overhaul. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 15848|22|2007-12-19 15:37:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /WinchDrumCapFormula.png Uploaded by : lachica31 Description : Calculate Winch Drum Capacity You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/WinchDrumCapFormula.png To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, lachica31 | 15849|15845|2007-12-19 15:41:28|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Anchor Windlass|Hi Seer, I have just put a sheet showing how to calculate winch drum capacity into the files section. Go here: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QHhpRweea3vcqarI6sZmAHhXKWFwwGrOMWSsPoeRXfEtLXQ44ZZTtrlAwY-fMf67j36j__yMW6F56_L_E_5RdfowD7luI_Y/WinchDrumCapFormula.png Likely you will need to copy and paste as the URL is probably mangled by the email system. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) seeratlas wrote: > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > thanks in advance > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 15850|15850|2007-12-19 16:57:48|allan weiman|Merry Christmas!|.hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} Merry Christmas Everyone! Wishing you and your families a Happy Holiday and Great New Year!! michelle and doug Your chance to win great prizes with Telus and Windows Live Messenger for Mobile. Click here for more information! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 17/12/2007 2:13 PM Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15851|15845|2007-12-19 18:28:31|mark hamill|Re: Anchor Windlass|Conversion program for the windlass measures-- www.onlineconversion.com Careful with this site, if you select the wrong option it will convert one from Christian or whatever to anyone of about 20 religions in a nano-second. No really;)| 15852|15845|2007-12-19 21:33:31|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|heheheh, you guys do this the hard way :) found this. http://www.airwinch.com/tools/drum.htm looks like for my 40k lbs, 7/16 or even 1/2 would be way to go. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Conversion program for the windlass measures-- www.onlineconversion.com > Careful with this site, if you select the wrong option it will convert > one from Christian or whatever to anyone of about 20 religions in a > nano-second. No really;) > | 15853|15838|2007-12-19 23:17:31|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Paul, fantastic!! The information you give is worth gold and you are certainly saving me hours and hours of research and speculation, with the risk of getting it less than optimal. I will have to dive into the meat of it all and digest this load and down the road I will probably make good use of your very kind offer to answer additional questions. I really hope there are also other builders or users of BS boats out there that can use this information. My boat is already set up with a wheel steering that runs a hydraulic pump and a double acting ram that moves the short tiller. I also have hydraulic piping already laid to under the nav-station table down below, where I can either get an extra steering position and/or couple in the autopilot pump. we shall see when I get a better overview over my options. Again, thanks a lot. The best Christmas gift I have received so far. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Hi Knut, see my reply's below > 1. You have a hydraulic autopilot that is plumbed into your hydraulic > wheel steering system? Yes The autopilot is a hydraulic pump governed by either > your compass or your gps. Yes This pump (when on autopilot) is replacing the > pump powered by your wheel when in manual steering? Yes The autopilot pump is > electric powered I assume. How much electric energy does it typically > consume? It depends :-) but seems to average around 4amps. Under power consumption is of cause no consideration and that is mostly how I use it. Down wind and quartering seas will drive consumption up on the other hand sailing upwind with the boat properly balanced, I have seen to consumption drop to 2 amps and less because the unit is doing hardly any work. Could you give details about the manufacturers of the components? http://www.autonav com/html/anav4000.htm http://www.coursema ster.com/autopilots/CM800.htm http://www.coursema ster.com/autopilots/CM850.htm http://www.raymarin e.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTion=2&Page=89&Parent=5 Autonav and Coursemaster are the way I would go (specifically Coursemaster CM800 or the Autonav 1500) if I were buying today but be warned good autopilots are not cheap. The Autonav page has a lot of info that is well worth reading. > Where to buy, what to buy etc? See the above. You will need an autopilot, that will come with the control head, compass, rudder position indicator and on some models a rate gyro. You will need to add a cylinder/ram (if you do not already have) an electric pump for the autopilot (some i.e. Coursemaster come with a pump) and a manual pump for the wheel (if you do not already have) see: http://www.coursema ster.com/hydrive/heavy_duty.htm http://www.hydrive com.au/site/product-cs.html http://www.autonav com/html/anav4003.htm Assorted tubing, hose, valve and fittings to put it all together. You will need to size the pump to suit the ram as I have exsplaned in my first post. If you have not already done it you will also have to size the ram to to the rudder area. If you need more info on how this all goes together, let me know. > 2. You also have a windvane steering which is totally separate from the > wheel steering and the autopilot. Yes When the windvane is steering the boat, > all hydraulic systems are depowered by the free flow of oil through the > bypass valve and the windvane is steering mechanically. Yes (Will a windvane be > powerful enough to operate a tiller steering when the tiller arm is just > about 30 cm long?). Depends on your windvane. If you are using Brent's design then the length of the tiller arm will not come into it. The Capehorn http://www.capehorn .com unit (possibly the best commercial vane available) likely will not have a problem, though mine is connected at 500mm. A pendulum servo windvane is an incredibly powerful thing. You cannot stop it turning with your hands if the boat has any way on it. > Hope the above all helps. Feel free to ask if to need more info. I would post pictures of my setup but cannot do so just yet as the boat is completny stripped down as I am in the middle of a major overhaul. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15854|15838|2007-12-19 23:50:46|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Knut, It is a pleasure to be of help. Feel free to pick my brain further if you need. Knowledge is of little use when others cannot benefit. If you put the CM800 or the Autonav in, you can also add a joystick (jogstick) at the nav station to give you inside steering. Anyway to you and all others on this list, have a very merry and enjoyable Christmas and hope you all get out on the water in the new year. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor > > fantastic!! The information you give is worth gold and you are certainly > saving me hours and hours of research and speculation, with the risk of > getting it less than optimal. I will have to dive into the meat of it all > and digest this load and down the road I will probably make good use of your > very kind offer to answer additional questions. I really hope there are also > other builders or users of BS boats out there that can use this information. > > > > My boat is already set up with a wheel steering that runs a hydraulic pump > and a double acting ram that moves the short tiller. I also have hydraulic > piping already laid to under the nav-station table down below, where I can > either get an extra steering position and/or couple in the autopilot pump. > we shall see when I get a better overview over my options. > > > > Again, thanks a lot. The best Christmas gift I have received so far. > | 15855|15845|2007-12-20 00:16:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor Windlass|Hi Seer, I just use an old glove to feed the wire manually so it goes evenly on the drum. I can't think of any reason to go to any other method as it would just complicate things for no reason. Also, I wouldn't try to wrap 7/16 or 1/2 inch cable around a 1 1/2 inch pipe or shaft since it would be too tight of a bending radius for that size of cable. It's best to make the drum diameter bigger when going to bigger cable. My drum is built up to about a 5 inch diameter for the cable I use. It sounds kind of hokey but I built it up with hardwood blocks attached at each end to the 1 1/2 inch shaft. The cable tightened around the drum helps holds everything tight and together. Why do you feel you need 500 or 600 feet of anchor cable? I have anchored in 100 feet of water using 300 feet of anchor cable and chain. I put a 35 pound lead ball where the cable joins the chain so it keeps the chain on the bottom and you can go shorter scope. It rarely happens but if I want to anchor in water deeper than that, I add more rope or chain to the cable. As long as the rope is kept off the bottom and doesn't chafe on anything, it is OK. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:22:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor Windlass One other thing, are you guys using a pressure plate of some kind to make sure the cable winds up straight and tight on the winch? seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > thanks in advance > > seer > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15856|15838|2007-12-20 01:02:38|Paul Wilson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Knut and Paul, I hate to jump in or criticize a system that obviously works but thought I would pass along an alternative. I assume the only reason for the wheel steering is because you have a center cockpit but you still have an outboard rudder with trim tab. Hydraulic steering is complicated and expensive and hydraulic autopilots even more so. If the rudder has a trim tab that can steer the boat in all conditions then why do you need hydraulic steering at all? You could have steering through a push-pull cable from the cockpit to the trim tab and do all steering in the cockpit with a joystick. When using the windvane, you disconnect the cable from the trim tab (easy with a Pit pin) so there is very little friction. You can have a cheap tiller pilot attached direct to the trim tab as well using the same arrangement. I have a cheap tiller pilot driving my trim tab that uses incredibly little power since it is only moving the trim tab instead of the main rudder. It probably draws less than 1 amp on average. The draw is so little, I really don't even think of its draw and just use whatever steers the boat best for the conditions, windvane or tillerpilot. If in the unlikely event the trim tab failed you could have an emergency tiller at the rudder or even a block and tackle arrangement to the back of the rudder. You should probably have this anyway with hydraulics ;). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Knut F Garshol To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:09:31 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Hi Paul, fantastic!! The information you give is worth gold and you are certainly saving me hours and hours of research and speculation, with the risk of getting it less than optimal. I will have to dive into the meat of it all and digest this load and down the road I will probably make good use of your very kind offer to answer additional questions. I really hope there are also other builders or users of BS boats out there that can use this information. My boat is already set up with a wheel steering that runs a hydraulic pump and a double acting ram that moves the short tiller. I also have hydraulic piping already laid to under the nav-station table down below, where I can either get an extra steering position and/or couple in the autopilot pump. we shall see when I get a better overview over my options. Again, thanks a lot. The best Christmas gift I have received so far. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:55 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Hi Knut, see my reply's below > 1. You have a hydraulic autopilot that is plumbed into your hydraulic > wheel steering system? Yes The autopilot is a hydraulic pump governed by either > your compass or your gps. Yes This pump (when on autopilot) is replacing the > pump powered by your wheel when in manual steering? Yes The autopilot pump is > electric powered I assume. How much electric energy does it typically > consume? It depends :-) but seems to average around 4amps. Under power consumption is of cause no consideration and that is mostly how I use it. Down wind and quartering seas will drive consumption up on the other hand sailing upwind with the boat properly balanced, I have seen to consumption drop to 2 amps and less because the unit is doing hardly any work. Could you give details about the manufacturers of the components? http://www.autonav com/html/anav4000. htm http://www.coursema ster.com/autopilots /CM800.htm http://www.coursema ster.com/autopilots /CM850.htm http://www.raymarin e.com/default. aspx?site= 1&SECTion= 2&Page=89& Parent=5 Autonav and Coursemaster are the way I would go (specifically Coursemaster CM800 or the Autonav 1500) if I were buying today but be warned good autopilots are not cheap. The Autonav page has a lot of info that is well worth reading. > Where to buy, what to buy etc? See the above. You will need an autopilot, that will come with the control head, compass, rudder position indicator and on some models a rate gyro. You will need to add a cylinder/ram (if you do not already have) an electric pump for the autopilot (some i.e. Coursemaster come with a pump) and a manual pump for the wheel (if you do not already have) see: http://www.coursema ster.com/hydrive/ heavy_duty. htm http://www.hydrive com.au/site/ product-cs. html http://www.autonav com/html/anav4003. htm Assorted tubing, hose, valve and fittings to put it all together. You will need to size the pump to suit the ram as I have exsplaned in my first post. If you have not already done it you will also have to size the ram to to the rudder area. If you need more info on how this all goes together, let me know. > 2. You also have a windvane steering which is totally separate from the > wheel steering and the autopilot. Yes When the windvane is steering the boat, > all hydraulic systems are depowered by the free flow of oil through the > bypass valve and the windvane is steering mechanically. Yes (Will a windvane be > powerful enough to operate a tiller steering when the tiller arm is just > about 30 cm long?). Depends on your windvane. If you are using Brent's design then the length of the tiller arm will not come into it. The Capehorn http://www.capehorn .com unit (possibly the best commercial vane available) likely will not have a problem, though mine is connected at 500mm. A pendulum servo windvane is an incredibly powerful thing. You cannot stop it turning with your hands if the boat has any way on it. > Hope the above all helps. Feel free to ask if to need more info. I would post pictures of my setup but cannot do so just yet as the boat is completny stripped down as I am in the middle of a major overhaul. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15857|15845|2007-12-20 01:48:37|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Anchor Windlass|Hi Seer, I agree with Paul 11/2 - 2 inch drum is to small, even for 1/4 inch cable yet alone 3/8 - 1/2 cable. I was taught when I did my NA apprenticeship that 16 times the wire diameter was the minimum diameter to use for a sheave or drum intended for use with wire. This applies doubly for SS wire. I have used 5 inch schd 40 SS pipe for my winch. I have 150M 7mm cable and 20M 10mm chain coupled to a 45lb CQR on La Chica. La Chica is 32ft and 8 tons disp. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor I wouldn't try to wrap 7/16 or 1/2 inch cable around a 1 1/2 inch pipe or shaft since it would be too tight of a bending radius for that size of cable. It's best to make the drum diameter bigger when going to bigger cable. My drum is built up to about a 5 inch diameter for the cable I use. It sounds kind of hokey but I built it up with hardwood blocks attached at each end to the 1 1/2 inch shaft. The cable tightened around the drum helps holds everything tight and together. > | 15858|15838|2007-12-20 02:30:41|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Paul, Your point is well taken, the trim tab system is cheap and if properly done reliable. It also makes a very simple way of putting a windvane on a boat. However while hydraulics are expensive I certainly do not find them complicated and they are very simple to install. I have also found then to be utterly reliable. In going on 12 years of use, I have never had a failure, not of the hydraulic system nor of the autopilot. The secret is super meticulous cleanness whenever you work with hydraulic and make sure that the autopilot is well over sized (according to the salesman and manufacture, that is. They are always incurably optimistic as to what there products can do). I started out with a trim tab windvane but I was not satisfied with the course that it kept. Windward work was OK but down wind especially with a quartering sea, the boat was all over the place. I them put on an old Monitor that I got cheap. The difference was like day and night. The boat then went downwind like she was on rails the reason is that a pendulum windvane has positive yaw damping and a trim tab windvane has no yaw damping or even negative damping. Some boats are not unduly affected by this and so there is no problem. After three years of the Monitor and two South Atlantic crossings the Monitor, now 21 years old was looking a bit tired. I replaced it with a Capehorn windvane as they perform as well as the Monitor except that in light conditions the Capehorn is quite notably better. I have had the Capehorn windvane since 1999 and I am well satisfied with it. I am also well satisfied with the complete system, which I admit was not cheap but it works and it works well. Giving me 12 years now of trouble free and totally reliable service. Having said the above, I am currently giving La Chica a major and well deserved overhaul and as part of that I will be putting the trim tab back on as it will give me a backup, should I ever need one. When single handing or short handing more than one option is always a good thing. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Knut and Paul, > > I hate to jump in or criticize a system that obviously works but thought I would pass along an alternative. I assume the only reason for the wheel steering is because you have a center cockpit but you still have an outboard rudder with trim tab. > > Hydraulic steering is complicated and expensive and hydraulic autopilots even more so. > > If the rudder has a trim tab that can steer the boat in all conditions then why do you need hydraulic steering at all? You could have steering through a push-pull cable from the cockpit to the trim tab and do all steering in the cockpit with a joystick. When using the windvane, you disconnect the cable from the trim tab (easy with a Pit pin) so there is very little friction. You can have a cheap tiller pilot attached direct to the trim tab as well using the same arrangement. I have a cheap tiller pilot driving my trim tab that uses incredibly little power since it is only moving the trim tab instead of the main rudder. It probably draws less than 1 amp on average. The draw is so little, I really don't even think of its draw and just use whatever steers the boat best for the conditions, windvane or tillerpilot. > > If in the unlikely event the trim tab failed you could have an emergency tiller at the rudder or even a block and tackle arrangement to the back of the rudder. You should probably have this anyway with hydraulics ;). > > Cheers, Paul | 15859|15845|2007-12-20 09:39:10|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 11:28:28PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > Conversion program for the windlass measures-- www.onlineconversion.com > Careful with this site, if you select the wrong option it will convert > one from Christian or whatever to anyone of about 20 religions in a > nano-second. No really;) I'm a Pastafarian. You can never convert those who know The One Absolute Truth. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15860|15860|2007-12-20 10:19:30|Wesley Cox|Re: Anchor Windlass, OFF TOPIC|I have finally found my one true belief. Thank you, Ben. (I always knew salvation was to be had in a yahoo discussion group). ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor Windlass On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 11:28:28PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > Conversion program for the windlass measures-- www.onlineconversion.com > Careful with this site, if you select the wrong option it will convert > one from Christian or whatever to anyone of about 20 religions in a > nano-second. No really;) I'm a Pastafarian. You can never convert those who know The One Absolute Truth. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.4/1189 - Release Date: 12/18/2007 9:40 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15861|15845|2007-12-20 13:34:32|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Anchor Windlass - OFF Topic|Hi Ben, I think that many of us in the IT, Science and engineering worlds are all devote Pastafarians. The best thing about Pastafarians is that they do not try to convert nor preach to anyone. Everyone has to find their way under their own steam. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor > > I'm a Pastafarian. You can never convert those who know The One Absolute > Truth. :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster > > | 15862|15845|2007-12-20 16:32:25|David A. Frantz|Re: Anchor Windlass|Here is a perspective from someone that doesn't even have a boat yet. The issue with a 2" or smaller spool size has nothing to do with strength, even though it might be to weak, but rather what would happen to the cable wrapped around such a radius. A cable of any size would suffer from fatigue and likely premature failure. So the first step in sizing the spool ought to be checking with cable manufactures for minimal bend radius's for the cable in mind. Though not what we are discussing this is interesting: http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3200/toc.htm. This might be helpful: http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/crosby/vii/vii177.htm. And from the horses mouth so to speak: http://www.cookes.co.nz/Cookes/catalogue/wrope.pdf Along the lines of more info than you would ever want to know: http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/01_3x19_wire_rope.pdf. Note that the numbers this manual come up with must be exceedingly conservative as the drum sizes end up being much larger than those referenced above. It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your drum capacity. Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get that sort of performance in a compact winch. Of course all of the above is in reference to steel cables. Other materials would be different of course. Interestingly my come along has spools that are about 4" in diameter even for the relatively thing cable used on a small one. dave seeratlas wrote: > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > thanks in advance > > seer > > | 15863|15783|2007-12-20 17:46:09|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Be a bit wary about registering a boat in France as they can be a bit bureaucratic about some types of boat - sailing barges are a case in point.We sailed around the coast from St Malo to Paimpol in the 'Het Leven' an old Dutch sailing barge registered in the UK.The skipper said that if it had been registered in France we wouldn't have been allowed out of the lock.In the French view barges are inland waterways only,whereas the English and Dutch sailed theirs(some types anyway)all over Northern Europe cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15864|15838|2007-12-20 19:53:55|Paul Wilson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Paul, I agree that hydraulics can be very reliable. My main beef is the cost. I haven't had the steering problems with a vane that you describe. I think the secret to most windvanes is getting the friction down adn having a boat that steers well in the first place. My friends bought a windvane and I couldn't believe how much friction it had. It had no hope of working, yet they paid thousands of dollars for it. The people who made it should have been forced to use it for a couple of thousand miles and see how much they enjoy hand steering a boat. What kind of boat is La Chica? If I didn't have an aft hung rudder I would probably go with the Capehorn windvane or Monitor windvane like you say. Brent keeps everything so simple. I have to eat a bit of humble pie with my trim-tab steering thoughts, however. I woke up in the middle of the night realizing I had made a major brain fart in my e-mail yesterday. I thought I would have a lot of e-mails saying I was an idiot but I guess I escaped OK. I totally forgot that a trim tab will not steer a boat in reverse so a direct method of steering a boat's rudder is necessary. I have steered for hours and docked my boat using the trim tab but in reverse you can forget it.....I think with a center cockpit boat with aft rudder a stubby tiller would probably work out for the times you need to go into reverse. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Merry Christmas to everybody. Cheers, Paul #2 ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 3:30:36 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC Hi Paul, Your point is well taken, the trim tab system is cheap and if properly done reliable. It also makes a very simple way of putting a windvane on a boat. However while hydraulics are expensive I certainly do not find them complicated and they are very simple to install. I have also found then to be utterly reliable. In going on 12 years of use, I have never had a failure, not of the hydraulic system nor of the autopilot. The secret is super meticulous cleanness whenever you work with hydraulic and make sure that the autopilot is well over sized (according to the salesman and manufacture, that is. They are always incurably optimistic as to what there products can do). I started out with a trim tab windvane but I was not satisfied with the course that it kept. Windward work was OK but down wind especially with a quartering sea, the boat was all over the place. I them put on an old Monitor that I got cheap. The difference was like day and night. The boat then went downwind like she was on rails the reason is that a pendulum windvane has positive yaw damping and a trim tab windvane has no yaw damping or even negative damping. Some boats are not unduly affected by this and so there is no problem. After three years of the Monitor and two South Atlantic crossings the Monitor, now 21 years old was looking a bit tired. I replaced it with a Capehorn windvane as they perform as well as the Monitor except that in light conditions the Capehorn is quite notably better. I have had the Capehorn windvane since 1999 and I am well satisfied with it. I am also well satisfied with the complete system, which I admit was not cheap but it works and it works well. Giving me 12 years now of trouble free and totally reliable service. Having said the above, I am currently giving La Chica a major and well deserved overhaul and as part of that I will be putting the trim tab back on as it will give me a backup, should I ever need one. When single handing or short handing more than one option is always a good thing. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Knut and Paul, > > I hate to jump in or criticize a system that obviously works but thought I would pass along an alternative. I assume the only reason for the wheel steering is because you have a center cockpit but you still have an outboard rudder with trim tab. > > Hydraulic steering is complicated and expensive and hydraulic autopilots even more so. > > If the rudder has a trim tab that can steer the boat in all conditions then why do you need hydraulic steering at all? You could have steering through a push-pull cable from the cockpit to the trim tab and do all steering in the cockpit with a joystick. When using the windvane, you disconnect the cable from the trim tab (easy with a Pit pin) so there is very little friction. You can have a cheap tiller pilot attached direct to the trim tab as well using the same arrangement. I have a cheap tiller pilot driving my trim tab that uses incredibly little power since it is only moving the trim tab instead of the main rudder. It probably draws less than 1 amp on average. The draw is so little, I really don't even think of its draw and just use whatever steers the boat best for the conditions, windvane or tillerpilot. > > If in the unlikely event the trim tab failed you could have an emergency tiller at the rudder or even a block and tackle arrangement to the back of the rudder. You should probably have this anyway with hydraulics ;). > > Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15865|15838|2007-12-20 20:22:52|brentswain38|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRA|Windvane parts should rattle loosely, with about 1/16th inch of clearance. With the windvane in my book, my boat will steer very well downwind in 1 1/2 knots of wind , something most commercial windvanes will not do. However my boats are extremely well balanced with good hull balance and thus good directional stability. Wide sterned boats which lack directional stability may need a more complex sevo rig to compensate for their shortcommings. Also ,failure to properly vang the main out will cost the needed directional stability. Structurally ,there is no comparison between the flimsey servo pendulum rig and the bullet proof construction of a trimtab on the back of a rudder. Failure of the former is extremely common, failure of the latter is almost non existent. As long as a boat is well balanced , there is absolutely no justification for the extra expense and complexity of hydraulics. Many designers like them for their ability to hide design flaws and compensate for poor hull balance. A sch 40 pipe tiller welded to a steel rudder head will never fail. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > I agree that hydraulics can be very reliable. My main beef is the cost. I haven't had the steering problems with a vane that you describe. I think the secret to most windvanes is getting the friction down adn having a boat that steers well in the first place. My friends bought a windvane and I couldn't believe how much friction it had. It had no hope of working, yet they paid thousands of dollars for it. The people who made it should have been forced to use it for a couple of thousand miles and see how much they enjoy hand steering a boat. > > What kind of boat is La Chica? If I didn't have an aft hung rudder I would probably go with the Capehorn windvane or Monitor windvane like you say. Brent keeps everything so simple. > > I have to eat a bit of humble pie with my trim-tab steering thoughts, however. I woke up in the middle of the night realizing I had made a major brain fart in my e-mail yesterday. I thought I would have a lot of e-mails saying I was an idiot but I guess I escaped OK. > > I totally forgot that a trim tab will not steer a boat in reverse so a direct method of steering a boat's rudder is necessary. I have steered for hours and docked my boat using the trim tab but in reverse you can forget it.....I think with a center cockpit boat with aft rudder a stubby tiller would probably work out for the times you need to go into reverse. > > Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. > > Merry Christmas to everybody. > > Cheers, Paul #2 > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 3:30:36 PM > Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC > > Hi Paul, > > Your point is well taken, the trim tab system is cheap and if properly > done reliable. It also makes a very simple way of putting a windvane on > a boat. However while hydraulics are expensive I certainly do not find > them complicated and they are very simple to install. I have also found > then to be utterly reliable. In going on 12 years of use, I have never > had a failure, not of the hydraulic system nor of the autopilot. > > The secret is super meticulous cleanness whenever you work with > hydraulic and make sure that the autopilot is well over sized (according > to the salesman and manufacture, that is. They are always incurably > optimistic as to what there products can do). > > I started out with a trim tab windvane but I was not satisfied with the > course that it kept. Windward work was OK but down wind especially with > a quartering sea, the boat was all over the place. > > I them put on an old Monitor that I got cheap. The difference was like > day and night. The boat then went downwind like she was on rails the > reason is that a pendulum windvane has positive yaw damping and a trim > tab windvane has no yaw damping or even negative damping. Some boats are > not unduly affected by this and so there is no problem. > > After three years of the Monitor and two South Atlantic crossings the > Monitor, now 21 years old was looking a bit tired. I replaced it with a > Capehorn windvane as they perform as well as the Monitor except that in > light conditions the Capehorn is quite notably better. > > I have had the Capehorn windvane since 1999 and I am well satisfied with > it. > > I am also well satisfied with the complete system, which I admit was not > cheap but it works and it works well. Giving me 12 years now of trouble > free and totally reliable service. > > Having said the above, I am currently giving La Chica a major and well > deserved overhaul and as part of that I will be putting the trim tab > back on as it will give me a backup, should I ever need one. > > When single handing or short handing more than one option is always a > good thing. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Knut and Paul, > > > > I hate to jump in or criticize a system that obviously works but thought I would pass along an alternative. I assume the only reason for the wheel steering is because you have a center cockpit but you still have an outboard rudder with trim tab. > > > > Hydraulic steering is complicated and expensive and hydraulic autopilots even more so. > > > > If the rudder has a trim tab that can steer the boat in all conditions then why do you need hydraulic steering at all? You could have steering through a push-pull cable from the cockpit to the trim tab and do all steering in the cockpit with a joystick. When using the windvane, you disconnect the cable from the trim tab (easy with a Pit pin) so there is very little friction. You can have a cheap tiller pilot attached direct to the trim tab as well using the same arrangement. I have a cheap tiller pilot driving my trim tab that uses incredibly little power since it is only moving the trim tab instead of the main rudder. It probably draws less than 1 amp on average. The draw is so little, I really don't even think of its draw and just use whatever steers the boat best for the conditions, windvane or tillerpilot. > > > > If in the unlikely event the trim tab failed you could have an emergency tiller at the rudder or even a block and tackle arrangement to the back of the rudder. You should probably have this anyway with hydraulics ;). > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15866|15838|2007-12-20 20:25:32|brentswain38|Re: BS 36 with wheel steering - HYDRAULIC|Weld a tiller to the rudder head for outside steering, build the self steering system in my book and disconnect the hyralic ram when using the windvane. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Can anyone direct me how to get an autopilot system installed with the > above starting point? I could use a windvane by de-coupling the link > between the hydraulic ram that operates the very short tiller (to > release the tiller), but it is not really tempting, because each time > I would want to use the wheel, I would have to connect the two again. > > What I hope is possible is a device operating the hydraulic wheel > system, coupled to the GPS for course control. Has anyone heard about > such a system either commercial or self-built? > > Knut > | 15867|15845|2007-12-20 20:26:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:32:26PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > drum capacity. In addition to that, there's also the issue of hub compression, assuming you use something other than a solid 4" (or greater) hub: the aluminum spools on fishing reels used to collapse when the fishing line around them was wound on under tension (e.g., after fighting a big fish.) 20 lbs of tension isn't much, but when you multiply that by a couple of hundred turns, things change... > Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > that sort of performance in a compact winch. I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be considering when designing a windlass.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15868|15845|2007-12-20 20:30:25|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|I prefer to have a start of 1/2 inch poly rope on the spool in case I have to cut and run. The poly will keep the end afloat, and is easy to cut in a hurry. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Here is a perspective from someone that doesn't even have a boat yet. > The issue with a 2" or smaller spool size has nothing to do with > strength, even though it might be to weak, but rather what would happen > to the cable wrapped around such a radius. A cable of any size would > suffer from fatigue and likely premature failure. So the first step > in sizing the spool ought to be checking with cable manufactures for > minimal bend radius's for the cable in mind. > > Though not what we are discussing this is interesting: > http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3200/toc.htm. > This might be helpful: > http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/crosby/vii/vii177.htm. And from the > horses mouth so to speak: http://www.cookes.co.nz/Cookes/catalogue/wrope.pdf > > Along the lines of more info than you would ever want to know: > http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/01_3x19_wire_rope.pdf. > Note that the numbers this manual come up with must be exceedingly > conservative as the drum sizes end up being much larger than those > referenced above. > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > drum capacity. Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > Of course all of the above is in reference to steel cables. Other > materials would be different of course. Interestingly my come along > has spools that are about 4" in diameter even for the relatively thing > cable used on a small one. > > dave > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > > > | 15869|15869|2007-12-20 20:30:52|joeearsley|Metal Boat Compass|I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? Thanks, Alaska joe| 15870|15783|2007-12-20 20:33:38|brentswain38|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Do your haulouts in other countries if possible Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A general comment to noone in particular, > > > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > > anchor or something which is really important. > > That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of > the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. > However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a > number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: > no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a > hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it > because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I > hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the > period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just > laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a > fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul > me.) > > In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, > you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ > fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands > of dollars over the long haul. > > > [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut > people slack in this regard. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15871|15845|2007-12-20 20:45:07|peter_d_wiley|Re: Anchor Windlass|10K pull is 5 tonnes. 20K, 10 tonnes. You need a cable capable of at least 2X and properly 4X the safe working load, so the cable needs to have a breaking strain of somewhere between 20 and 40 tonnes. Min drum diameter is generally 20X cable dia. 40X isn't unreasonable. 10mm 6x24 wire rope has a breaking strain of 44 kN or approx 4.5 tonnes. 16mm is 113 kN or approx 12 tonnes, so this one meets your criteria. It weighs 81 kg/100m so you're looking at 200kg of wire to get the length you want. Min drum diameter is 300mm and really I wouldn't have less than 400mm. This is my nice way of saying that you are not going to get what you want with any sort of sensible safety margin :-) FWIW I spent most of my working life in marine research and we played with wire, winches etc all the time. 6mm cable has a breaking strain of 2.8 tonnes and we *never* loaded one with more than 800 kg static load. Second-guess me if you want, but this is how it works out. Actually your requirement for 20K line pull is waaaaay high. You aren't going to get it. I used to run trawl winches and they could pull 20 tonnes on the inner wrap but only 8 tonnes on the outer wrap, due to the increase in effective drum diameter. These winches were over 1500mm dia and were loaded with 22mm wire rope. http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=10 has wire rope details. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > thanks in advance > > seer > | 15872|15783|2007-12-20 20:48:52|brentswain38|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|It cost me far less to replace my first boat when I lost her, than it would have cost to insure her. The only insurance claim I ever made, ( Travel Underwriters , Woldwide Mediclaim ) they refused to pay because I didn't have a credit card for them to put all my expenses on and force me to go to court to get reimbursed . I have no faith at all in the possibility that they will pay me if I have a claim. I only insured my first boat while under construction, 37 years ago. When I launched ,the policy they offered me was a total scam. A good name for an offshore boat is "Court of Appeal" I only hauled my current boat twice in 23 years , both times in Tonga because there wasn't enough tidal range to paint her, and I was starting a 5,000 mile , mostly to windward, passage , the last time non stop. The rest of the time the beach is all I need. I'd never go back to a single keeler. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A general comment to noone in particular, > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another anchor or something which is really important. > > Cheers, Paul > > > I actually have offers from BoatUS, but they are very expensive. They add > $800,000 oil spill insurance to all alternatives and this item cannot be > negotiated. They do not explain if this is required by regulation, connected > to FL only or if it is just a company rule..... To me it looks like plane > nonsense, but what do I know. BTW I did specify steel boat. > > Knut > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15873|15783|2007-12-20 20:51:49|brentswain38|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Some claim bilge keelers are not as efficent as single keelers. Not if you consider the ease of cleaning a twin keeler and the increased liklihood that the twin keeler probably have a clean bottom more of the time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I admit I am fonder of bilge keels after paying for haul-outs and poor anti-fouling paint that needs to be applied sooner than it should. I have a fin keeler but I am hoping to do my own beach haulouts like the bilge keelers with the sheer legs I have made. I think it should work out OK but will let everyone know in a year or two when I give it a try. I hope I don't end up showing pictures of my boat laying on its side. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:09:39 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A general comment to noone in particular, > > > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > > anchor or something which is really important. > > That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of > the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. > However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a > number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: > no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a > hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it > because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I > hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the > period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just > laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a > fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul > me.) > > In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, > you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ > fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands > of dollars over the long haul. > > [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut > people slack in this regard. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15874|15783|2007-12-20 20:53:59|brentswain38|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Simple solution. Anchor.Stay out of marinas. Works for me. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > Getting Liability Insurance because a marina wants it can be a pain if it > isn't a Bleach bottle. > I was looking at using a 47' Ferro-cement boat as a live-aboard (Dock Queen) > and contacted BoatUS for just Liability. > On the application I listed my 35 years sailing experience and in sizes > ranging up to and including a 80' boat* > *(30 minutes steering the 80' but they didn't ask amount of time in size > ) > >RE: Marine Insurance Request for Quotation #9098189 > > 1978 Custom 47’ > >Dear Mr. Popp: > >Thank you for your interest in the BoatU.S. Marine Insurance Program. > >Unfortunately, your request for coverage does not fit within the > underwriting limits governing the >Association’s program due to lack of experience. > > >Diane Snyder > >Underwriter > > > As I have found with Auto insurance in Oregon, they check your Credit Rating > as a basis, not your experience. I had some "issues" a few years ago with my > Credit and then quoted rates went up by 5 times what I was getting from my > present Insurance. Fortunately my current insurance rate didn't change but if > they ever dropped me.....Ouch! > > If an Insurance company gives you a very HIGH rate or refuses you insurance, > it may not be for the reason you think. > > Tom Popp > > > > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15875|15845|2007-12-20 21:11:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 01:30:23AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I prefer to have a start of 1/2 inch poly rope on the spool in case I > have to cut and run. The poly will keep the end afloat, and is easy to > cut in a hurry. > Brent I'm a big fan of that kind of thinking, myself, although I don't trust poly rope; the end of my anchor chain is tied off with a length of 5/8" nylon. I had a seriously bad experience with a dragging boat (not mine) in Bermuda [1], where the inboard end of the chain was shackled inside the chain locker - i.e., not reachable without a hell of a lot of digging, something that wasn't going to happen before the boat hit the rocks. I'd rather drag the harbor for my ground tackle in calm weather than have to salvage my boat, anytime... [1] Stupid story, really. Two nights before, a bunch of US boats came into St. Georges - it was one of these "cruises to Bermuda" where all the ducklings follow a Mama Duck because they're too afraid to sail the big scary ocean on their own. That night, a "northerly" (that's what the Bermudians call it) blew through - from a dead calm to 77kt sustained, as registered at the dinghy club in the harbor, to a dead calm a half an hour later - and three quarters of those boats dragged, including the Great Leader's. I heard a woman screaming for help on one of the dragging boats, jumped in my dinghy (that's *why* I like a big dinghy with a 15HP motor - if it doesn't work in adverse conditions, it ain't worth having), and bashed my way over to her boat; her husband had jumped on a plane to the States for parts as soon as they got there, and she had no clue about anything whatsoever - including where the engine keys were - and her boat was fast headed for the big rocks on shore. Since her chain was secured below, there was no way to cut it loose. The engine, even though it was a big one, couldn't turn the bow against the hurricane-force winds and seas, and without any forward speed, the rudder couldn't get a bite to turn the boat to slack the chain. There were no other anchors on board, and there were no tools that I could find that would cut that chain in any reasonable time. The only thing that saved her was pure luck: about two minutes before we hit the shore, we snagged something on the bottom (a big steel cable, as it turned out later) which held her just long enough. The next night, all these brave cruisers showed up at my boat, inviting me to a dinner held in my honor because my "bravery" had "saved this woman's life!" Despite Tristan Jones' Rule #1 ("never turn down booze or food"), I politely refused. I did bust my ass trying to help her, but my "bravery" wasn't what saved her (boat, not life); if it wasn't for that cable, those idiots would have been cursing me for being responsible for her losing her boat. I break no goddamn bread with the Pharisees. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15876|15869|2007-12-20 21:40:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Metal Boat Compass|On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 01:30:50AM -0000, joeearsley wrote: > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? I've been pretty lazy about it ever since GPS came along (which is going to bite me one day, for sure), but the right thing to do, just to get a baseline, is to swing your compass - i.e., pick some roughly N/S and E/W objects on shore, run reciprocal courses between them, and note your compass indications. Do the same thing for NE/SW and SE/NW; note those down. Now, gape in horror at the amount of induced compass error and go buy a GPS. :))) Just kidding... Seriously: most standard compasses will not have enough adjustment range for the average steel boat - although it can happen, so try that first. Otherwise, assuming the amount of error isn't *too* horrendous, just laminate that compass error card you've just made up and mount it right next to your compass. If the amount of error is _really_ ridiculous, you'll need to get a specially-made compass (think "Navy compass", with a big metal ball on a sliding rack to either side.) Sometimes, you can get lucky and spot one at a surplus store. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15877|15845|2007-12-20 21:44:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass - OFF Topic|On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 07:34:29AM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I think that many of us in the IT, Science and engineering worlds are > all devote Pastafarians. [grin] Snarky bastards, the lot of us. We'll be the first ones up against the wall whenever the fanatics get their way... but it does make life interesting in the meantime. > The best thing about Pastafarians is that they > do not try to convert nor preach to anyone. Everyone has to find their > way under their own steam. Steam? Steam??? How dare you! The *only* proper way is to Boil The Holy Water, Add The Holy Salt, and Simmer The Holy Noodles For 8 Minutes!... oh, sorry - almost got into a religious war, there. Whew, that was close. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15878|15869|2007-12-20 21:49:42|Paul Wilson|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Alaska Joe, Personally, I wouldn't waste time and money trying to install a fixed compass on a steel boat. I steer using the GPS heading and cross track error to a waypoint. The current draw of most GPS units is so low that I never turn it off. My compass is a handheld compass used for emergencies only but honestly, I have never needed it. A lot of people won't like it but it works for me. Cheers, Paulo ----- Original Message ---- From: joeearsley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:30:50 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Metal Boat Compass I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? Thanks, Alaska joe ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15879|15845|2007-12-20 21:58:00|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor Windlass|Righto, Ben, The issue of later wraps cutting into the earlier wraps is a real one. I try to wrap the cable as tight as I can as it comes in so that the later wraps don't cut in when under load. When at anchor, I put a loop of old line in a rolling hitch around the cable and then attach it with a springy nylon line to a cleat so there is no load on the drum. Worse case is if the nylon line breaks the drum will still take the load. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:26:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor Windlass On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:32:26PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > drum capacity. In addition to that, there's also the issue of hub compression, assuming you use something other than a solid 4" (or greater) hub: the aluminum spools on fishing reels used to collapse when the fishing line around them was wound on under tension (e.g., after fighting a big fish.) 20 lbs of tension isn't much, but when you multiply that by a couple of hundred turns, things change... > Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > that sort of performance in a compact winch. I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be considering when designing a windlass.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15880|15845|2007-12-20 22:38:56|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|John Sampson cruised the Pacific for many decades with a 50,000 lb ketch , weathered many hurricanes , and stopped the boat dead going thru the pass in Huahine, while going hull speed ,when a crew mistakenly dropped the anchor , with 3/8th inch wire. With chain,the difference between safe working load and breaking strength is much geater than with wire, as a flaw in a single link of chain reduces it's strength drastically ,while a flaw in a strand of 7X19 wire reduces the strength by 1/49th, max.This brings the actual safe working load of wire much closer to it's breaking strength, as wire rope is thus one of the most structualy reliable materials known to man. Compare the breaking strength of wire with that of commonly used sizes for chain, to calculate wire size. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > 10K pull is 5 tonnes. 20K, 10 tonnes. You need a cable capable of at > least 2X and properly 4X the safe working load, so the cable needs to > have a breaking strain of somewhere between 20 and 40 tonnes. > > Min drum diameter is generally 20X cable dia. 40X isn't unreasonable. > > 10mm 6x24 wire rope has a breaking strain of 44 kN or approx 4.5 tonnes. > > 16mm is 113 kN or approx 12 tonnes, so this one meets your criteria. > It weighs 81 kg/100m so you're looking at 200kg of wire to get the > length you want. > > Min drum diameter is 300mm and really I wouldn't have less than 400mm. > > This is my nice way of saying that you are not going to get what you > want with any sort of sensible safety margin :-) > > FWIW I spent most of my working life in marine research and we played > with wire, winches etc all the time. 6mm cable has a breaking strain > of 2.8 tonnes and we *never* loaded one with more than 800 kg static > load. Second-guess me if you want, but this is how it works out. > > Actually your requirement for 20K line pull is waaaaay high. You > aren't going to get it. I used to run trawl winches and they could > pull 20 tonnes on the inner wrap but only 8 tonnes on the outer wrap, > due to the increase in effective drum diameter. These winches were > over 1500mm dia and were loaded with 22mm wire rope. > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=10 > > has wire rope details. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to > scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > | 15881|15845|2007-12-20 22:41:18|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|New poly will last hundreds of years, as long as it never sees the sun. It also floats , making recovery easier. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 01:30:23AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > I prefer to have a start of 1/2 inch poly rope on the spool in case I > > have to cut and run. The poly will keep the end afloat, and is easy to > > cut in a hurry. > > Brent > > I'm a big fan of that kind of thinking, myself, although I don't trust > poly rope; the end of my anchor chain is tied off with a length of 5/8" > nylon. I had a seriously bad experience with a dragging boat (not mine) > in Bermuda [1], where the inboard end of the chain was shackled inside > the chain locker - i.e., not reachable without a hell of a lot of > digging, something that wasn't going to happen before the boat hit the > rocks. I'd rather drag the harbor for my ground tackle in calm weather > than have to salvage my boat, anytime... > > > [1] Stupid story, really. Two nights before, a bunch of US boats came > into St. Georges - it was one of these "cruises to Bermuda" where all > the ducklings follow a Mama Duck because they're too afraid to sail the > big scary ocean on their own. That night, a "northerly" (that's what the > Bermudians call it) blew through - from a dead calm to 77kt sustained, > as registered at the dinghy club in the harbor, to a dead calm a half an > hour later - and three quarters of those boats dragged, including the > Great Leader's. > > I heard a woman screaming for help on one of the dragging boats, jumped > in my dinghy (that's *why* I like a big dinghy with a 15HP motor - if it > doesn't work in adverse conditions, it ain't worth having), and bashed > my way over to her boat; her husband had jumped on a plane to the States > for parts as soon as they got there, and she had no clue about anything > whatsoever - including where the engine keys were - and her boat was > fast headed for the big rocks on shore. > > Since her chain was secured below, there was no way to cut it loose. The > engine, even though it was a big one, couldn't turn the bow against the > hurricane-force winds and seas, and without any forward speed, the > rudder couldn't get a bite to turn the boat to slack the chain. There > were no other anchors on board, and there were no tools that I could > find that would cut that chain in any reasonable time. The only thing > that saved her was pure luck: about two minutes before we hit the shore, > we snagged something on the bottom (a big steel cable, as it turned out > later) which held her just long enough. > > The next night, all these brave cruisers showed up at my boat, inviting > me to a dinner held in my honor because my "bravery" had "saved this > woman's life!" Despite Tristan Jones' Rule #1 ("never turn down booze or > food"), I politely refused. I did bust my ass trying to help her, but my > "bravery" wasn't what saved her (boat, not life); if it wasn't for that > cable, those idiots would have been cursing me for being responsible for > her losing her boat. I break no goddamn bread with the Pharisees. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15882|15869|2007-12-20 22:45:42|brentswain38|Re: Metal Boat Compass|I have a steering compass ( Dirigo, one of the best) at my steering seat in my wheelhouse. It is out 20 degrees but doesn't lock in and shows a change of course. Two mirrors on my overhead let me check the course from my bunk. I get my actual course from GPS , then steer whatever the compass says. You could easily make up a deviation card with a GPS, or corrections with magnets , one directly under the compass to eliminate heeling error. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Alaska Joe, > > Personally, I wouldn't waste time and money trying to install a fixed compass on a steel boat. I steer using the GPS heading and cross track error to a waypoint. The current draw of most GPS units is so low that I never turn it off. My compass is a handheld compass used for emergencies only but honestly, I have never needed it. A lot of people won't like it but it works for me. > > Cheers, Paulo > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: joeearsley > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:30:50 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Metal Boat Compass > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? > > Thanks, > Alaska joe > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15883|15869|2007-12-20 22:47:52|brentswain38|Re: Metal Boat Compass|It's much better to have your compass below decks , surrounded by steel than to have it on deck with steel only below it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 01:30:50AM -0000, joeearsley wrote: > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? > > I've been pretty lazy about it ever since GPS came along (which is going > to bite me one day, for sure), but the right thing to do, just to get a > baseline, is to swing your compass - i.e., pick some roughly N/S and E/W > objects on shore, run reciprocal courses between them, and note your > compass indications. Do the same thing for NE/SW and SE/NW; note those > down. Now, gape in horror at the amount of induced compass error and go > buy a GPS. :))) > > Just kidding... Seriously: most standard compasses will not have enough > adjustment range for the average steel boat - although it can happen, so > try that first. Otherwise, assuming the amount of error isn't *too* > horrendous, just laminate that compass error card you've just made up > and mount it right next to your compass. > > If the amount of error is _really_ ridiculous, you'll need to get a > specially-made compass (think "Navy compass", with a big metal ball on a > sliding rack to either side.) Sometimes, you can get lucky and spot one > at a surplus store. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15884|15845|2007-12-20 22:52:17|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|I've never had a wire cut nor dammage a line, despite using this arrangement for over 25 years . We will never wrap an anchor rode as tight as recovering fishing gear under load.No comparison. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Righto, Ben, > > The issue of later wraps cutting into the earlier wraps is a real one. I try to wrap the cable as tight as I can as it comes in so that the later wraps don't cut in when under load. When at anchor, I put a loop of old line in a rolling hitch around the cable and then attach it with a springy nylon line to a cleat so there is no load on the drum. Worse case is if the nylon line breaks the drum will still take the load. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:26:18 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor Windlass > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:32:26PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > > drum capacity. > > In addition to that, there's also the issue of hub compression, > assuming you use something other than a solid 4" (or greater) hub: > the aluminum spools on fishing reels used to collapse when the fishing > line around them was wound on under tension (e.g., after fighting a big > fish.) 20 lbs of tension isn't much, but when you multiply that by a > couple of hundred turns, things change... > > > Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15885|15845|2007-12-20 22:53:33|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|I've always used 2 inch sch 40 ss pipe for the spool centre. No problem in over 25 years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Here is a perspective from someone that doesn't even have a boat yet. > The issue with a 2" or smaller spool size has nothing to do with > strength, even though it might be to weak, but rather what would happen > to the cable wrapped around such a radius. A cable of any size would > suffer from fatigue and likely premature failure. So the first step > in sizing the spool ought to be checking with cable manufactures for > minimal bend radius's for the cable in mind. > > Though not what we are discussing this is interesting: > http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3200/toc.htm. > This might be helpful: > http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/crosby/vii/vii177.htm. And from the > horses mouth so to speak: http://www.cookes.co.nz/Cookes/catalogue/wrope.pdf > > Along the lines of more info than you would ever want to know: > http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/01_3x19_wire_rope.pdf. > Note that the numbers this manual come up with must be exceedingly > conservative as the drum sizes end up being much larger than those > referenced above. > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > drum capacity. Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > Of course all of the above is in reference to steel cables. Other > materials would be different of course. Interestingly my come along > has spools that are about 4" in diameter even for the relatively thing > cable used on a small one. > > dave > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > > > | 15886|15838|2007-12-21 01:04:51|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] BS 36 with wheel steering - H|Hi Paul, No worries man, I did not even think to raise the issue as I assumed that everybody knows that a trim tab does not work in reverse. :-) Trim tab vanes mostly work well thought not everyone likes the course that some boats steer with them. Brent's designs are all well balanced and they track well, hence the trim tab gears work well for the. The trim tab work for La Chica also but I did not like the amount of yawing she did when sailing downwind especially with a quartering sea. Paradoxically, I believe that yawing under these conditions is quite common with many full keel boats. La Chica is a heavy displacement (8 Metric Tons) being 32ft LOA and 27Ft 9in on the waterline. Beam is 10ft3in, draft 5ft. She is double ended, has a very traditional full keel and is built of steel. She has an out board rudder. I built her in 1989 long before I heard of Brent and his work. Moitessier thoughts on steel boats were very much my guide, while I built her and over the years. I am currently giving her a long deserved overhaul. I am also implementing many of Brent's ideas on her, as I find that they make sense to me. She now has a Brent style wheelhouse, rudder (& trim tab :-) and anchor winch. I have also fixed or changed everything that has bugged me since I put her into the water. I have removed all wood trim and replaces it with stainless steel. So while the overhaul is taking some time, I will have a very much better boat when I am finished. Hope I have not board you with the story. Actually how I came to have a hydraulic autopilot is another story in its self, but it did not cost me very much. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Paul, > > I agree that hydraulics can be very reliable. My main beef is the cost. I haven't had the steering problems with a vane that you describe. I think the secret to most windvanes is getting the friction down adn having a boat that steers well in the first place. My friends bought a windvane and I couldn't believe how much friction it had. It had no hope of working, yet they paid thousands of dollars for it. The people who made it should have been forced to use it for a couple of thousand miles and see how much they enjoy hand steering a boat. > > What kind of boat is La Chica? If I didn't have an aft hung rudder I would probably go with the Capehorn windvane or Monitor windvane like you say. Brent keeps everything so simple. > > I have to eat a bit of humble pie with my trim-tab steering thoughts, however. I woke up in the middle of the night realizing I had made a major brain fart in my e-mail yesterday. I thought I would have a lot of e-mails saying I was an idiot but I guess I escaped OK. > > I totally forgot that a trim tab will not steer a boat in reverse so a direct method of steering a boat's rudder is necessary. I have steered for hours and docked my boat using the trim tab but in reverse you can forget it.....I think with a center cockpit boat with aft rudder a stubby tiller would probably work out for the times you need to go into reverse. > | 15887|15845|2007-12-21 02:05:39|David A. Frantz|Re: Anchor Windlass|I'm not sure what the intention was either, unfortunately most of my experience is industrial where you want to be sure you are not over powering your cable. Storm or not it doesn't do any good to pull beyond the cables strength. In an event he very well might have the intention for a pretty heavy cable, I just don't know where he will put 500 feet of it. The other thing is that in a storm I'd really want the load to be taken up by something other than the winch. It is one area where I like to see chain actually as it can be gripped easier than cable in non damaging ways. Interestingly I have a bit of an anecdote here with respect to compression. I work in manufacturing and have a lot of high speed barcode printers that I have to tend to from time to time. These being thermal printers have a ribbon web where the spent webbing gets wrapped up on a spool. If something goes wrong, where the tension is to high, you at times have to cut the spent ribbon roll off with a knife. That web is only a few mils thick but wrap an inch of it around the spool to tight and you will think it was welded on. This is probably one reason that winches and such often look over built upon first inspection. The other thing to consider is that a bigger spool means fewer wrapped layers. Also 500 feet of half or three quarter inch cable is going to weigh a lot. I'm not a marine engineer by a long shot but putting that much weight on desk on a small boat calls for some thought. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 15888|15845|2007-12-21 09:56:51|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Anchor Windlass|If you want a windlass with a bigger spool diameter than a 2 inch pipe, consider this variation of Brent's design. Get two matching auto brake discs (free as they are commonly replaced with brake jobs nowadays rather than being machined). These are shaped like a boater hat, with the "brim" being 10 to 12 inches in diameter and about 3/8 inch thick, depending on the source. The "crown" is about 5 inches in diameter and has a large hole for the hub and 4 or 5 smaller holes for the wheel bolts. Bolt the two together with brims touching and you can grind or cut out ratchet teeth on both at once. Turn the crowns to face one another, insert a suitable pience of pipe to cover both crowns and weld or bolt the whole thing together and mount on a frame per Brent's plans. Wouldn't be stainless, so would have to galvanize it or paint it and maybe protect the faces from abrasion with discs of plastic cutting board material. On the other hand it would be a lot cheaper for materials than all that stainless steel stock, and hell for stout, too. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15889|15845|2007-12-21 10:00:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 06:57:58PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > Righto, Ben, > > The issue of later wraps cutting into the earlier wraps is a real one. > I try to wrap the cable as tight as I can as it comes in so that the > later wraps don't cut in when under load. When at anchor, I put a > loop of old line in a rolling hitch around the cable and then attach > it with a springy nylon line to a cleat so there is no load on the > drum. Worse case is if the nylon line breaks the drum will still take > the load. Oh, ditto. I'd never run chain without at least a snubber - and you'd be amazed at how much 1/2" nylon will stretch under a shock load; it looks like a bungee cord! You do have to be careful, though. I had to help out a 50' Canadian boat that had dragged into me, and ended up just rafting them up - the skipper was out of action because his leg got whacked by a snubber shackle that broke under load (he was using one of those cheap carabiner-type shackles.) The next morning, when I took him and his wife to the local hospital, the doctor's comment was "it looks like you got shot with a .45!" It went all the way to the bone. I never trust non-locking carabiners for anything more than carrying my keys. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15890|15845|2007-12-21 10:09:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 03:41:16AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > New poly will last hundreds of years, as long as it never sees the > sun. Well, true. But that's only possible up in Canada. :) I do use poly for my dinghy rope. I used 3/4" line, and it's lasted me about two and a half years so far - but it's getting badly frayed (outside strands only - I'm pretty sure the inside is still unaffected) and I'm going to replace it in the next six months. Three years in the Florida sun... not too bad of a record, I guess. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15891|15869|2007-12-21 12:25:52|silascrosby|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Joe, on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do in the fullness of time. I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the companionway it was not correctable with my skills. We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in the main unit She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of you guys with warm dry feets) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have done? > > Thanks, > Alaska joe > | 15892|15845|2007-12-21 15:35:51|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 03:41:16AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > New poly will last hundreds of years, as long as it never sees the > > sun. > > Well, true. But that's only possible up in Canada. :) > > I do use poly for my dinghy rope. I used 3/4" line, and it's lasted me > about two and a half years so far - but it's getting badly frayed > (outside strands only - I'm pretty sure the inside is still unaffected) > and I'm going to replace it in the next six months. Three years in the > Florida sun... not too bad of a record, I guess. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15893|15845|2007-12-21 15:39:25|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|You would never put that kind of steady , even tension on an anchor rode. 3/4 would be a huge overkill for any boat under 100 ft. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > > I'm not sure what the intention was either, unfortunately most of my > experience is industrial where you want to be sure you are not over > powering your cable. Storm or not it doesn't do any good to pull > beyond the cables strength. In an event he very well might have the > intention for a pretty heavy cable, I just don't know where he will put > 500 feet of it. > > The other thing is that in a storm I'd really want the load to be taken > up by something other than the winch. It is one area where I like to > see chain actually as it can be gripped easier than cable in non > damaging ways. > > Interestingly I have a bit of an anecdote here with respect to > compression. I work in manufacturing and have a lot of high speed > barcode printers that I have to tend to from time to time. These being > thermal printers have a ribbon web where the spent webbing gets wrapped > up on a spool. If something goes wrong, where the tension is to high, > you at times have to cut the spent ribbon roll off with a knife. That > web is only a few mils thick but wrap an inch of it around the spool to > tight and you will think it was welded on. > > This is probably one reason that winches and such often look over built > upon first inspection. The other thing to consider is that a bigger > spool means fewer wrapped layers. Also 500 feet of half or three > quarter inch cable is going to weigh a lot. I'm not a marine engineer > by a long shot but putting that much weight on desk on a small boat > calls for some thought. > > > Dave > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > | 15894|15845|2007-12-21 15:57:06|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Anchor Windlass|Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches spell out how they set up their anchor rodes. As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so secure the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections (how long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight to be attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the anchor. Is that right? What size wire are you using? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor brentswain38 wrote: > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > Brent > | 15895|15845|2007-12-21 19:15:58|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|In the tropics I use poly, then wire right to the anchor, with an eye every 50 feet to attach a snubber to. In BC waters , 50 ft poly, then 500ft of nylon, then 15 ft of wire or chain. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches spell out > how they set up their anchor rodes. > > As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so secure > the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections (how > long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight to be > attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the anchor. Is > that right? > > What size wire are you using? > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end > > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > > Brent > > > | 15896|15845|2007-12-21 20:21:18|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor Windlass|I must be achoring in the wrong places since I have had the outer wraps cut into the inner ones more than once. Since I now use a snubber to a cleat the cable off it has never happened again. Once was in a Kona storm off the north end of Maui. The swells were wrapping around the island and breaking over the deck. The other time was in Suvarov lagoon when the wind came across the lagoon and the waves were also breaking over the deck. I also had a similar problem in Fanning lagoon. Each time the cable got a kink in it but was still probably plenty strong. Cheers, Paul I've never had a wire cut nor dammage a line, despite using this arrangement for over 25 years . We will never wrap an anchor rode as tight as recovering fishing gear under load.No comparison. Brent ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15897|15845|2007-12-21 20:37:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor Windlass|I think you will have a variety of answers to this..... I have 75 feet of 3/8 inch chain onto 200 feet of 3/8 inch wire cable. 3/8 inch is over-kill but I like the extra weight of it and it is easy to do a soft splice with it onto a thimble. I use a loop of line in a rolling hitch to attach a snubber. On the larger 3/8 cable it never slips. As I said in an earlier post a while ago, I used to use 1/4 inch cable but broke it at the thimble where it attaches to the chain in Fanning lagoon when my cable got snagged in coral and came up short. A large chop was coming across the lagoon. It happened so quick that I had books flying out of shelves. By the time I rushed on deck the cable had broken. I don't trust the 1/4 inch cable any more for my 36 footer when its around coral or anything else that can put a tight bend in it. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:57:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor Windlass Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches spell out how they set up their anchor rodes. As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so secure the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections (how long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight to be attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the anchor. Is that right? What size wire are you using? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor brentswain38 wrote: > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > Brent > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15898|15783|2007-12-21 20:42:54|Paul Wilson|Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat|Hi Brent, You are right, nothing beats a clean bottom. I still think I would go for a fin keeler if I was doing it all again, however. I love the 125 gallons of water and the 90 gallons of fuel I have under my floorboards where the weight is kept low. I have only been on a few bilge keelers but their tanks were under the settees which is the best storage area on my boat. Hopefully my new sheer legs will work and I can join you on the beach one day. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:51:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bureaucratic questions & new boat Some claim bilge keelers are not as efficent as single keelers. Not if you consider the ease of cleaning a twin keeler and the increased liklihood that the twin keeler probably have a clean bottom more of the time. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I admit I am fonder of bilge keels after paying for haul-outs and poor anti-fouling paint that needs to be applied sooner than it should. I have a fin keeler but I am hoping to do my own beach haulouts like the bilge keelers with the sheer legs I have made. I think it should work out OK but will let everyone know in a year or two when I give it a try. I hope I don't end up showing pictures of my boat laying on its side. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:09:39 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bureaucratic questions & new boat > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 05:16:28PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > A general comment to noone in particular, > > > > I have only had insurance for one of the last ten years and that was > > only because it was a requirement of a marina I was staying in and > > liability in a boatyard. I am exaggerating a bit but I think if I had > > insurance for the 20 years I have owned my boat I would have almost > > spent enough money to buy another boat. I have seen people throw > > money into insurance but have crappy sails, no spare anchors, and poor > > lines. Their priorities are all screwed up. My thinking has been to > > take the money instead and buy some safety equipment like another > > anchor or something which is really important. > > That's my thinking as well; I've only had insurance for two years out of > the entire time that I've been sailing, for the same reason as above. > However, the boating industry - certainly here in Florida, and in a > number of other places as well - has become very strident about it [1]: > no insurance, no haulout. The last time I had "Ulysses" out, I had a > hell of a hassle because I didn't have it, and only got away with it > because I had commissioned a bunch of work to be done, the people I > hired had insurance, and were willing to "pretend" to cover me for the > period (I say "pretend" because their insurance company would have just > laughed if something had actually gone wrong; all of this was a > fan-dance to convince the boatyard owner that It Really Was OK to haul > me.) > > In short, if you're building a Brentboat and _don't_ use bilge keels, > you're making a *BIG* mistake. :) Just having the ability to inspect/ > fix/scrape/etc. your hull without hauling out is worth tens of thousands > of dollars over the long haul. > > [1] Seer, what's the story at Green Cove? I've heard that they cut > people slack in this regard. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15899|15899|2007-12-22 08:53:58|deniswig|mobile phones at sea|if any of you wish to have cheap and reliable phones at sea check out BLUE OCEAN WIRELESS . an irish co who will sell you a sim card which works in your own basic mobile phone at sea but ceases when it encounters a land based network . it has been designed for the 1 million + seafarers who cannot contact their families cheaply while working . a happy christmas from ireland and a peaceful new year to all the loons in this group , the steel boat heretic| 15900|15900|2007-12-22 10:17:02|knutfgarshol|Steel hull and radar detection|Hi, what is your experience regarding the ability of other boats to see your steel hull on their radar scope? Do we need a radar reflector in addition, like a GRP-boat? After all, most of us are less than 40 feet LOA. Knut| 15901|15901|2007-12-22 10:26:49|knutfgarshol|BS 36 and rudder trim tab|Hi Brent, I have your book with the short description of how to build a trim tab on page 41. But there are no drawings, dimensions, materials etc so not much help to really build one. Is this information part of the plans for the complete 36-footer? Can I buy drawings etc. for the trim tab separately (as you know I have purchased a BS36 but no plans came with the boat) [:-s] Regards Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15902|15899|2007-12-22 10:49:27|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] mobile phones at sea|Hi, looking up Blue Ocean Wireless on the internet it seems correct what you present, BUT for the crew member on a ship to use his cellphone, the ship must have an Inmarsat satellite station installed. I don't know the cost of this, but it is certainly more than just a SIM-card for your cellphone? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of deniswig Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 8:54 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] mobile phones at sea if any of you wish to have cheap and reliable phones at sea check out BLUE OCEAN WIRELESS . an irish co who will sell you a sim card which works in your own basic mobile phone at sea but ceases when it encounters a land based network . it has been designed for the 1 million + seafarers who cannot contact their families cheaply while working . a happy christmas from ireland and a peaceful new year to all the loons in this group , the steel boat heretic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15903|15845|2007-12-22 16:46:51|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Generally speaking, when setting up a winch to pull HARD, I never use the first two wraps. On a 2" shaft the first wrap will add about an inch, the second the same, so ...a working diameter of about 4 inches. I guess when I made the original post I was *really tired* hehehe, as when I think about the amount of horsepower run thru the average 2" shaft...well..it should be plenty strong enough :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Here is a perspective from someone that doesn't even have a boat yet. > The issue with a 2" or smaller spool size has nothing to do with > strength, even though it might be to weak, but rather what would happen > to the cable wrapped around such a radius. A cable of any size would > suffer from fatigue and likely premature failure. So the first step > in sizing the spool ought to be checking with cable manufactures for > minimal bend radius's for the cable in mind. > > Though not what we are discussing this is interesting: > http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3200/toc.htm. > This might be helpful: > http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/crosby/vii/vii177.htm. And from the > horses mouth so to speak: http://www.cookes.co.nz/Cookes/catalogue/wrope.pdf > > Along the lines of more info than you would ever want to know: > http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/01_3x19_wire_rope.pdf. > Note that the numbers this manual come up with must be exceedingly > conservative as the drum sizes end up being much larger than those > referenced above. > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > drum capacity. Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > Of course all of the above is in reference to steel cables. Other > materials would be different of course. Interestingly my come along > has spools that are about 4" in diameter even for the relatively thing > cable used on a small one. > > dave > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > > > | 15904|15845|2007-12-22 16:53:03|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Hiyas Ben :) Well, what I'm thinking is if I'm going to put this boat thru its paces, I'm going to need to be able to kedge off, not just raise and lower an 80 lb anchor. Once the hydraulics are figured in, then the gear ratios become of importance and when you think of pulling 20k or so lbs (doubled line), I figured a solid 2" stainless shaft should stand up to that without too much trouble. Once you get there, then you figure size and type of cable, then length of shaft, number of wraps, etc to get to my desired somewhere around 600-700 feet of available rode, but be able to spool off a bunch to do shorter HARD pulls. I'll work it all out and then run it by the group before building the thing, but between a big capacity reel windlass in the forward locker, and a big capstan in the back, I should be prepared to handle most of the problems I can forsee at the moment, though I'll still be buying "towing insurance" for the ditch lol :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnikc wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:32:26PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > > drum capacity. > > In addition to that, there's also the issue of hub compression, > assuming you use something other than a solid 4" (or greater) hub: > the aluminum spools on fishing reels used to collapse when the fishing > line around them was wound on under tension (e.g., after fighting a big > fish.) 20 lbs of tension isn't much, but when you multiply that by a > couple of hundred turns, things change... > > > Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15905|15845|2007-12-22 16:59:07|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|not that small of boat, or big of cable. 44ft got a big stainless chain locker forward that will suit mouting a reel winch no problem. I suspect 7/16 " cable would handle anything I want to do, after all, what yacht anchor is expected to pull 20k lbs? Wrap management is a problem, but I saw how Gord had worked out a stainless pressure plate on his forward reel winch which caused the csable to spool in each wrap next to the previous one. I'll do something like that. :) Oh, and guys, take a look at the 4x4 winches. I carried a 12k Ramsey around on the front of my pickup for years. It carried around 200ft of 3/8 or 7/16's , can't remember exactly, but anyway, I have a lot more room available than that would've needed. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > > I'm not sure what the intention was either, unfortunately most of my > experience is industrial where you want to be sure you are not over > powering your cable. Storm or not it doesn't do any good to pull > beyond the cables strength. In an event he very well might have the > intention for a pretty heavy cable, I just don't know where he will put > 500 feet of it. > > The other thing is that in a storm I'd really want the load to be taken > up by something other than the winch. It is one area where I like to > see chain actually as it can be gripped easier than cable in non > damaging ways. > > Interestingly I have a bit of an anecdote here with respect to > compression. I work in manufacturing and have a lot of high speed > barcode printers that I have to tend to from time to time. These being > thermal printers have a ribbon web where the spent webbing gets wrapped > up on a spool. If something goes wrong, where the tension is to high, > you at times have to cut the spent ribbon roll off with a knife. That > web is only a few mils thick but wrap an inch of it around the spool to > tight and you will think it was welded on. > > This is probably one reason that winches and such often look over built > upon first inspection. The other thing to consider is that a bigger > spool means fewer wrapped layers. Also 500 feet of half or three > quarter inch cable is going to weigh a lot. I'm not a marine engineer > by a long shot but putting that much weight on desk on a small boat > calls for some thought. > > > Dave > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > | 15906|15845|2007-12-22 17:01:14|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Hmm, didn't think about the floating aspect, clever :) I was going to use nylon but you've talked me into it. Having the bow fastened to something that can pull 20k when you don't want to be could be a big problem in a hurry :) Nice tip Brent. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I prefer to have a start of 1/2 inch poly rope on the spool in case > have to cut and run. The poly will keep the end afloat, and is easy to > cut in a hurry. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Here is a perspective from someone that doesn't even have a boat > yet. > > The issue with a 2" or smaller spool size has nothing to do with > > strength, even though it might be to weak, but rather what would happen > > to the cable wrapped around such a radius. A cable of any size would > > suffer from fatigue and likely premature failure. So the first step > > in sizing the spool ought to be checking with cable manufactures for > > minimal bend radius's for the cable in mind. > > > > Though not what we are discussing this is interesting: > > > http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3200/toc.htm. > > > This might be helpful: > > http://www.slingchoker.com/sling2/crosby/vii/vii177.htm. And from > the > > horses mouth so to speak: > http://www.cookes.co.nz/Cookes/catalogue/wrope.pdf > > > > Along the lines of more info than you would ever want to know: > > > http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/01_3x19_wire_rope.pdf. > > > Note that the numbers this manual come up with must be exceedingly > > conservative as the drum sizes end up being much larger than those > > referenced above. > > > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you > follow > > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > > drum capacity. Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > > > Of course all of the above is in reference to steel cables. Other > > materials would be different of course. Interestingly my come along > > has spools that are about 4" in diameter even for the relatively thing > > cable used on a small one. > > > > dave > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to > scrounge. > > > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > > > thanks in advance > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > | 15907|15845|2007-12-22 17:03:46|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|LOL :)and yes, I've seen it. Ben has one big azz dinghy, with a good reason, Ben is not entirely..er uh..insubstantial :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 01:30:23AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > I prefer to have a start of 1/2 inch poly rope on the spool in case I > > have to cut and run. The poly will keep the end afloat, and is easy to > > cut in a hurry. > > Brent > > I'm a big fan of that kind of thinking, myself, although I don't trust > poly rope; the end of my anchor chain is tied off with a length of 5/8" > nylon. I had a seriously bad experience with a dragging boat (not mine) > in Bermuda [1], where the inboard end of the chain was shackled inside > the chain locker - i.e., not reachable without a hell of a lot of > digging, something that wasn't going to happen before the boat hit the > rocks. I'd rather drag the harbor for my ground tackle in calm weather > than have to salvage my boat, anytime... > > > [1] Stupid story, really. Two nights before, a bunch of US boats came > into St. Georges - it was one of these "cruises to Bermuda" where all > the ducklings follow a Mama Duck because they're too afraid to sail the > big scary ocean on their own. That night, a "northerly" (that's what the > Bermudians call it) blew through - from a dead calm to 77kt sustained, > as registered at the dinghy club in the harbor, to a dead calm a half an > hour later - and three quarters of those boats dragged, including the > Great Leader's. > > I heard a woman screaming for help on one of the dragging boats, jumped > in my dinghy (that's *why* I like a big dinghy with a 15HP motor - if it > doesn't work in adverse conditions, it ain't worth having), and bashed > my way over to her boat; her husband had jumped on a plane to the States > for parts as soon as they got there, and she had no clue about anything > whatsoever - including where the engine keys were - and her boat was > fast headed for the big rocks on shore. > > Since her chain was secured below, there was no way to cut it loose. The > engine, even though it was a big one, couldn't turn the bow against the > hurricane-force winds and seas, and without any forward speed, the > rudder couldn't get a bite to turn the boat to slack the chain. There > were no other anchors on board, and there were no tools that I could > find that would cut that chain in any reasonable time. The only thing > that saved her was pure luck: about two minutes before we hit the shore, > we snagged something on the bottom (a big steel cable, as it turned out > later) which held her just long enough. > > The next night, all these brave cruisers showed up at my boat, inviting > me to a dinner held in my honor because my "bravery" had "saved this > woman's life!" Despite Tristan Jones' Rule #1 ("never turn down booze or > food"), I politely refused. I did bust my ass trying to help her, but my > "bravery" wasn't what saved her (boat, not life); if it wasn't for that > cable, those idiots would have been cursing me for being responsible for > her losing her boat. I break no goddamn bread with the Pharisees. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15908|15899|2007-12-22 17:06:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: mobile phones at sea|On Sat, Dec 22, 2007 at 01:53:56PM -0000, deniswig wrote: > if any of you wish to have cheap and reliable phones at sea check > out BLUE OCEAN WIRELESS . an irish co who will sell you a sim card > which works in your own basic mobile phone at sea but ceases when it > encounters a land based network . it has been designed for the 1 > million + seafarers who cannot contact their families cheaply while > working . a happy christmas from ireland and a peaceful new year to > all the loons in this group , the steel boat heretic From everything I can see on their site, their solution requires installing a "Altobridge gateway platform" aboard the ship. http://www.blueoceanwireless.com/product_demo.htm The phones talk to that shipboard station, which is a retransmitter that connects to a ground station. http://www.blueoceanwireless.com/includes/pdfs/BOW_Brochure_October_2007_1.pdf Sight unseen, I'm guessing that this is, at the very least, a large cabinet with high (~100kW) power requirements plus a very large antenna that needs to be installed. The cost will be something in the $100k-$1M range, and it's designed to go aboard a large ocean-going vessel. Essentially, this gadget looks like a competitor to Inmarsat M - with the added convenience of letting the users use their phones as local links. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15909|15845|2007-12-22 17:06:09|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|I spent a lot of years around the fishing fleet along the BC/Alaskan coast and those guys used a LOT of black poly for pretty much everything. Strength is down compared to straight nylon or dacron, but the floating saves a ton of hang ups, and the black seemed to handle the uv pretty well. It's also a ton cheaper if I remember right. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2007 at 03:41:16AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > New poly will last hundreds of years, as long as it never sees the > > > sun. > > > > Well, true. But that's only possible up in Canada. :) > > > > I do use poly for my dinghy rope. I used 3/4" line, and it's lasted me > > about two and a half years so far - but it's getting badly frayed > > (outside strands only - I'm pretty sure the inside is still unaffected) > > and I'm going to replace it in the next six months. Three years in the > > Florida sun... not too bad of a record, I guess. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15910|15845|2007-12-22 17:08:32|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|As Paul said, what size wire and line are you using Brent? And, what would you recommend for the 44? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > In the tropics I use poly, then wire right to the anchor, with an eye > every 50 feet to attach a snubber to. In BC waters , 50 ft poly, then > 500ft of nylon, then 15 ft of wire or chain. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > > > Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches spell out > > how they set up their anchor rodes. > > > > As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so secure > > the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections > (how > > long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight to be > > attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the anchor. Is > > that right? > > > > What size wire are you using? > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > Deaf Sailor > > > > > > > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on the end > > > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > > > Brent > > > > > > | 15911|15845|2007-12-22 17:16:24|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Thanks pete. I keep thinking in terms of 4x4 performance, as in you never actually pull 12k with a 12k winch. I'll do my recalcs. What do you think makes sense for a 38 to 40k 44 footer? I was thinking 7/16's should be enough to kedge off, and hold me against anything i'd reasonable want to be held too :). seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > 10K pull is 5 tonnes. 20K, 10 tonnes. You need a cable capable of at > least 2X and properly 4X the safe working load, so the cable needs to > have a breaking strain of somewhere between 20 and 40 tonnes. > > Min drum diameter is generally 20X cable dia. 40X isn't unreasonable. > > 10mm 6x24 wire rope has a breaking strain of 44 kN or approx 4.5 tonnes. > > 16mm is 113 kN or approx 12 tonnes, so this one meets your criteria. > It weighs 81 kg/100m so you're looking at 200kg of wire to get the > length you want. > > Min drum diameter is 300mm and really I wouldn't have less than 400mm. > > This is my nice way of saying that you are not going to get what you > want with any sort of sensible safety margin :-) > > FWIW I spent most of my working life in marine research and we played > with wire, winches etc all the time. 6mm cable has a breaking strain > of 2.8 tonnes and we *never* loaded one with more than 800 kg static > load. Second-guess me if you want, but this is how it works out. > > Actually your requirement for 20K line pull is waaaaay high. You > aren't going to get it. I used to run trawl winches and they could > pull 20 tonnes on the inner wrap but only 8 tonnes on the outer wrap, > due to the increase in effective drum diameter. These winches were > over 1500mm dia and were loaded with 22mm wire rope. > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=10 > > has wire rope details. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to > scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > | 15912|15845|2007-12-22 17:20:30|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Oh, and I thought I said 20k line pull doubled :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > 10K pull is 5 tonnes. 20K, 10 tonnes. You need a cable capable of at > least 2X and properly 4X the safe working load, so the cable needs to > have a breaking strain of somewhere between 20 and 40 tonnes. > > Min drum diameter is generally 20X cable dia. 40X isn't unreasonable. > > 10mm 6x24 wire rope has a breaking strain of 44 kN or approx 4.5 tonnes. > > 16mm is 113 kN or approx 12 tonnes, so this one meets your criteria. > It weighs 81 kg/100m so you're looking at 200kg of wire to get the > length you want. > > Min drum diameter is 300mm and really I wouldn't have less than 400mm. > > This is my nice way of saying that you are not going to get what you > want with any sort of sensible safety margin :-) > > FWIW I spent most of my working life in marine research and we played > with wire, winches etc all the time. 6mm cable has a breaking strain > of 2.8 tonnes and we *never* loaded one with more than 800 kg static > load. Second-guess me if you want, but this is how it works out. > > Actually your requirement for 20K line pull is waaaaay high. You > aren't going to get it. I used to run trawl winches and they could > pull 20 tonnes on the inner wrap but only 8 tonnes on the outer wrap, > due to the increase in effective drum diameter. These winches were > over 1500mm dia and were loaded with 22mm wire rope. > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=10 > > has wire rope details. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent and others who have built the reel cable windlass as per the > > book. I was trying to figure out how big of a central shaft I should > > use on my boat. Lets' figure 40k boat, I'd like to get 6 or 7 hundred > > feet of cable on the reel, would settle for 5 :). there's some 1.5 to > > 2" stainless prop shaft here in the yard that I might be able to > scrounge. > > > > Off the top, I'm thinking that should be good for 10 to 20k pull. I'd > > like to do it with hydraulics as no problem to run sched 80 stainless > > pipe from engine room both forward and aft where I think I'll hook up > > a capstan for general multi-directional pulling since i'll have the > > hydraulic available anyway. Between the two I should have a good > > chance at being able to kedge off when I manage to ground out here on > > the 'shallow' coast :) hehehe. Any of you engineering types can give > > me some ideas of 1. will the shaft handle it? 2. what kind of > > dimensions am I going to need to spool that much cable, 3. what size > > cable should I be calculating for? 3/8? 7/16"? > > > > Any related advice or even good jokes readily accepted :) hehehe. > > oh, I have 28" of width and 13" in height available in the deck > > opening chain locker for the windlass. If necessary I can go higher > > in diameter by 'doming' the steel hatch cover a bit. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > seer > > > | 15913|15845|2007-12-22 17:21:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anchor Windlass|On Sat, Dec 22, 2007 at 10:03:44PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > LOL :)and yes, I've seen it. Ben has one big azz dinghy, with a good > reason, Ben is not entirely..er uh..insubstantial :) Are you saying that my dreams of being a jockey are never going to pan out??? :) The way I figure it is, I like for boats to sail on their feet - and I should be able to do that just by shifting from one side of the cockpit to another - even if I build one of Brent's big boats. :) Plus, I love that look of despair in the eyes of "all-you-can-eat" restaurant owners and the little guys who have something to prove. :))) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15914|15845|2007-12-22 17:23:46|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Guys that designed and built my boat put in one huge stainless mount just above waterline that's tied into the stem :) just for mounting a big snubber, so i'm good to go on that point. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Righto, Ben, > > The issue of later wraps cutting into the earlier wraps is a real one. I try to wrap the cable as tight as I can as it comes in so that the later wraps don't cut in when under load. When at anchor, I put a loop of old line in a rolling hitch around the cable and then attach it with a springy nylon line to a cleat so there is no load on the drum. Worse case is if the nylon line breaks the drum will still take the load. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:26:18 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor Windlass > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:32:26PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > It comes down to this it depends on which rope and what specs you follow > > to find minimal drum diameter. I suspect that a fairly large drum > > diameter is in order. Someplace between 4 and 20 inches, depending > > on chosen wire. As to spooling cable the Cookes manual referenced > > above has the formula for that. The big issue I see is the 20K of > > pull, that will imply a fairly large cable which directly affects your > > drum capacity. > > In addition to that, there's also the issue of hub compression, > assuming you use something other than a solid 4" (or greater) hub: > the aluminum spools on fishing reels used to collapse when the fishing > line around them was wound on under tension (e.g., after fighting a big > fish.) 20 lbs of tension isn't much, but when you multiply that by a > couple of hundred turns, things change... > > > Not to mention fairly interesting engineering to get > > that sort of performance in a compact winch. > > I don't know that seer was thinking about performance (i.e., being able > to apply that kind of tension) - more like being able to _take_ that > kind of load when a storm comes through the anchorage. (seer, feel > free to correct me; not speaking for you, just thinking of what I'd be > considering when designing a windlass.) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15915|15845|2007-12-22 18:20:02|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Windlass|I've been using 1/4 inch 7X19 stainless wire and half inch nylon line for the main rode. 3/8th wire would probably be adequate for a 44, with nylon to match the breaking strength of the wire in higher ( Coral free) lattitudes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As Paul said, what size wire and line are you using Brent? And, what > would you recommend for the 44? > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > In the tropics I use poly, then wire right to the anchor, with an eye > > every 50 feet to attach a snubber to. In BC waters , 50 ft poly, then > > 500ft of nylon, then 15 ft of wire or chain. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > > > > > Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches > spell out > > > how they set up their anchor rodes. > > > > > > As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so secure > > > the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections > > (how > > > long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight to be > > > attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the anchor. Is > > > that right? > > > > > > What size wire are you using? > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > > Deaf Sailor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on > the end > > > > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > | 15916|15901|2007-12-22 18:27:29|brentswain38|Re: BS 36 and rudder trim tab|For the 36 I make the trimtab 5 inches wide by the length of the trailing edge of the rudder minus about six inches up from the bottom. Score a 11 inch wide piece of 16 guage ss down the middle to let it bend there, or bend it well beyond 90 degrees in a brake ,and pull the edges together, and tack them with about a 1/2 inch tack every 2 inches. Use a piece of 1/2 inch sch 40 ss pipe for the trimtab shaft. Leave the leading edge of the trimtab about 1/2 inch ahead of the shaft for a slight balance. Use 1 inch sch 40 ss pipe for the pintles with a bit of plastic bleach bottle material in the top and bottom ones for bearing surface. Leave the middle one bearing free and bend the shaft till it floats in the centre of the middle pintle. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > I have your book with the short description of how to build a trim tab > on page 41. But there are no drawings, dimensions, materials etc so not > much help to really build one. Is this information part of the plans for > the complete 36-footer? > > Can I buy drawings etc. for the trim tab separately (as you know I have > purchased a BS36 but no plans came with the boat) [:-s] > > Regards > Knut > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15917|15845|2007-12-22 20:17:30|seeratlas|Re: Anchor Windlass|Ok, thanks :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've been using 1/4 inch 7X19 stainless wire and half inch nylon line > for the main rode. 3/8th wire would probably be adequate for a 44, > with nylon to match the breaking strength of the wire in higher > ( Coral free) lattitudes. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > As Paul said, what size wire and line are you using Brent? And, what > > would you recommend for the 44? > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > In the tropics I use poly, then wire right to the anchor, with an eye > > > every 50 feet to attach a snubber to. In BC waters , 50 ft poly, then > > > 500ft of nylon, then 15 ft of wire or chain. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Please can Brent and or the the guys who have Brent's winches > > spell out > > > > how they set up their anchor rodes. > > > > > > > > As I understand it, first a couple of feet of nylon or poly so > secure > > > > the cable to the drum. then the cable proper made up of in sections > > > (how > > > > long?) each ending with an eye to enable a snubber or a weight > to be > > > > attached to the cable. Lastly 30 odd ft of chain, then the > anchor. Is > > > > that right? > > > > > > > > What size wire are you using? > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > > > Deaf Sailor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > Mostly covered by the rest of the rode, a few feet of poly on > > the end > > > > > will rarely see UV.The black stuff lasts much longer. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 15918|15869|2007-12-22 20:22:04|seeratlas|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats in the yard i'm in. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Joe, > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > in the fullness of time. > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > the main unit > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > you guys with warm dry feets) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > done? > > > > Thanks, > > Alaska joe > > > | 15919|15900|2007-12-22 20:30:11|seeratlas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|The radar reflectors I've tried were by and large crap. I've heard rumors of a new unit that actually works but don't know what it is yet. If there's a good one out there, I havn't seen it. Plus, the guys getting run down aren't getting doused because of not being on radar, its because no one appears to be watching much of anything from the bridge. My thought is that since its your boat and your life, take control over possible collisions. My own solution is to put in the radar detectors (i'm told there are two bands you have to worry about), and my own radar which is designed to sleep, wake up every 15 minutes or so, do a sweep, then scream like hell if it sees anything :) A third possibility is to put out a radar emitter. It is possible to send out a signal equaling what they would see if you were a carrier :) Maybe that would get their attention up on the bridge LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Hi, > > what is your experience regarding the ability of other boats to see > your steel hull on their radar scope? Do we need a radar reflector in > addition, like a GRP-boat? After all, most of us are less than 40 feet > LOA. > > Knut > | 15920|15900|2007-12-22 23:15:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Sun, Dec 23, 2007 at 01:30:08AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > The radar reflectors I've tried were by and large crap. I've heard > rumors of a new unit that actually works but don't know what it is > yet. If there's a good one out there, I havn't seen it. I've repeatedly heard good things about the Firdell blippers - including from a guy who called a freighter in the open ocean and asked them what he looked like on their radar. They reported him to be about the same size as themselves. :) > Plus, the guys > getting run down aren't getting doused because of not being on radar, > its because no one appears to be watching much of anything from the > bridge. That's the main problem, right there. When it comes to radar reflectors, etc., I have the same attitude as I do when riding my motorcycle: I don't expect the other guy to intentionally do me harm, but I don't expect him to see me, either. If I want to stay alive, I've got to take the necessary action to avoid collission - not rely on him to do so. > My thought is that since its your boat and your life, take control > over possible collisions. My own solution is to put in the radar > detectors (i'm told there are two bands you have to worry about), and > my own radar which is designed to sleep, wake up every 15 minutes or > so, do a sweep, then scream like hell if it sees anything :) I have an alarm clock for those times; I set it to go off every 15 minutes, get up when it rings and do a slow, careful scan of the horizon. I *don't* scream like hell if I see anything, though; I just take evasive action as necessary. :) > A third possibility is to put out a radar emitter. It is possible to > send out a signal equaling what they would see if you were a carrier :) > > Maybe that would get their attention up on the bridge LOL. Assuming that anyone is up and watching, yes. Frankly, after talking to a couple of crewmen on commercial ships - especially non-US ones - I seriously doubt it, especially once they're a hundred miles out of port. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15921|15900|2007-12-23 00:03:10|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Ben and seer, I can only 100% agree with what you both say (don't trust the big guy) and act accordingly. That is the way I have done it so far and I will continue to do it this way. Having my experience from GRP boats I am still curious whether the steel hull of our size makes any difference compared to a GRP hull of the same size (<40'). If it verifiably does and considering that I anyway have to act as if they do NOT see me, I would save the money and effort of buying and hoisting a radar reflector. There are enough things to hoist all the time and I would be happy to have one less to think about. One situation when you would expect every boat with radar to also have a constant radar watch is dense fog anywhere close to a main harbor entrance. Under such circumstances, even the big guys need to be careful. There could be one or more even bigger out there..... and if I give a good blip (without reflector) it would clearly be an advantage. Anyone with factual information about steel boat radar signal reflection?? Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15922|15899|2007-12-23 06:02:03|Denis Buggy|Re: mobile phones at sea|to ben i read and relayed verbatim the article as it appeared in the irish times of 21st dec page 18 business section which concerned itself mainly with the share capital funding of this co and it appears less of a major event than i thought for those who mind spending a million or so for a mobile phone and a ship to power it . please omit the word "cheap" from your files . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] mobile phones at sea On Sat, Dec 22, 2007 at 01:53:56PM -0000, deniswig wrote: > if any of you wish to have cheap and reliable phones at sea check > out BLUE OCEAN WIRELESS . an irish co who will sell you a sim card > which works in your own basic mobile phone at sea but ceases when it > encounters a land based network . it has been designed for the 1 > million + seafarers who cannot contact their families cheaply while > working . a happy christmas from ireland and a peaceful new year to > all the loons in this group , the steel boat heretic From everything I can see on their site, their solution requires installing a "Altobridge gateway platform" aboard the ship. http://www.blueoceanwireless.com/product_demo.htm The phones talk to that shipboard station, which is a retransmitter that connects to a ground station. http://www.blueoceanwireless.com/includes/pdfs/BOW_Brochure_October_2007_1.pdf Sight unseen, I'm guessing that this is, at the very least, a large cabinet with high (~100kW) power requirements plus a very large antenna that needs to be installed. The cost will be something in the $100k-$1M range, and it's designed to go aboard a large ocean-going vessel. Essentially, this gadget looks like a competitor to Inmarsat M - with the added convenience of letting the users use their phones as local links. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15923|15899|2007-12-23 08:16:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: mobile phones at sea|On Sun, Dec 23, 2007 at 11:02:17AM -0000, Denis Buggy wrote: > to ben > i read and relayed verbatim the article as it appeared in the irish > times of 21st dec page 18 business section which concerned itself > mainly with the share capital funding of this co and it appears less > of a major event than i thought for those who mind spending a > million or so for a mobile phone and a ship to power it . please > omit the word "cheap" from your files . It's easy to miss little things like that in a financial report - hell, as far as I know, that's an intended consequence. They paint everything in glowing colors (salespeople tend to do that, you know :) so that investors will jump onto their bandwagon - that's the primary goal. The technological details, well, that doesn't matter so much... only the geeks care about those, right? Meanwhile, satellite phones are a threat to the cell phone companies' business model - they're still trying to wring every last penny out of their investment in cell towers - and governments everywhere are terrified of losing control/easy access to their citizens' thoughts. We're not going to see easy, direct communication of this sort anytime soon - even though the technology has been around for ages. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15924|15869|2007-12-23 12:38:09|mauro gonzaga|Re: Metal Boat Compass|My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. Mauro seeratlas wrote: Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats in the yard i'm in. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Joe, > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > in the fullness of time. > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > the main unit > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > you guys with warm dry feets) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > done? > > > > Thanks, > > Alaska joe > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15925|15869|2007-12-23 20:43:44|seeratlas|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Does your boat have inside steering? Very tough to swing a compass inside a steel PH :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. > Mauro > seeratlas wrote: > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > in the yard i'm in. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Joe, > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > > in the fullness of time. > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > the main unit > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > done? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15926|15869|2007-12-23 21:29:04|Paul Wilson|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Many boats have their compass swung when they are on the straight and level motoring around a harbor. When the boat heels the mass of metal of the hull swings to the side and can put a large error into the compass. I think it is almost impossible to have an accurate magnetic compass on a metal sailboat which operates at all angles of heel. Merry Christmas, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mauro gonzaga To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 1:38:08 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Metal Boat Compass My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. Mauro seeratlas wrote: Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats in the yard i'm in. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Joe, > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > in the fullness of time. > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > the main unit > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > you guys with warm dry feets) > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > done? > > > > Thanks, > > Alaska joe > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15927|15869|2007-12-24 04:30:33|mauro gonzaga|Re: Metal Boat Compass|I am a mediterranean sailor. No inside steering. I presume you are right. First: it is a MUST, the compass shall be on the centerline. I presume it is difficult but not impossible to swing an inside compass as well. Before the GPS was so popular I used the sun, an hand calculator and the efemerides to have perfect bearing. Not so difficult either. Cheers, Mauro seeratlas wrote: Does your boat have inside steering? Very tough to swing a compass inside a steel PH :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. > Mauro > seeratlas wrote: > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > in the yard i'm in. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Joe, > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > > in the fullness of time. > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > the main unit > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > done? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15928|15869|2007-12-24 10:15:10|seeratlas|Re: Metal Boat Compass|heheh, prior to getting a boat in sunny florida, I was a British Columbia/ Alaska sailor and relying on the sun for bearings was a definite 'no no' as sometimes you wouldn't see it for days if not weeks. :) One thing I found useful was one of the hand held bearing compasses racers used to use. If everything else failed you could stand on the PH and shoot bearings all around you to make absolutely sure. (assuming you could see thru the fog hehehe) This was important as a mistake in navigation in the Pac Northwest won't set you lightly aground on the soft mud or sand..... In any event, the flux gate on a metal boat would be what i'd advise, along with redundant gps units. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I am a mediterranean sailor. No inside steering. I presume you are right. First: it is a MUST, the compass shall be on the centerline. I presume it is difficult but not impossible to swing an inside compass as well. Before the GPS was so popular I used the sun, an hand calculator and the efemerides to have perfect bearing. Not so difficult either. > Cheers, Mauro > > seeratlas wrote: > Does your boat have inside steering? Very tough to swing a compass > inside a steel PH :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > wrote: > > > > My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant > from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician > arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. > > Mauro > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > > in the yard i'm in. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as > he is > > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I > installed > > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I > will do > > > in the fullness of time. > > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > > the main unit > > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass > on a > > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > > done? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15929|15869|2007-12-24 11:49:30|mauro gonzaga|Re: Metal Boat Compass|heheh, don't rely too much on hand held compass in a steelboat. It will be true provided you keep it well far from steel. I used it as well but I went standing on the bowsprit protruded as forward possible. Mauro seeratlas wrote: heheh, prior to getting a boat in sunny florida, I was a British Columbia/ Alaska sailor and relying on the sun for bearings was a definite 'no no' as sometimes you wouldn't see it for days if not weeks. :) One thing I found useful was one of the hand held bearing compasses racers used to use. If everything else failed you could stand on the PH and shoot bearings all around you to make absolutely sure. (assuming you could see thru the fog hehehe) This was important as a mistake in navigation in the Pac Northwest won't set you lightly aground on the soft mud or sand..... In any event, the flux gate on a metal boat would be what i'd advise, along with redundant gps units. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > I am a mediterranean sailor. No inside steering. I presume you are right. First: it is a MUST, the compass shall be on the centerline. I presume it is difficult but not impossible to swing an inside compass as well. Before the GPS was so popular I used the sun, an hand calculator and the efemerides to have perfect bearing. Not so difficult either. > Cheers, Mauro > > seeratlas wrote: > Does your boat have inside steering? Very tough to swing a compass > inside a steel PH :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > wrote: > > > > My steelboat had a compass on a pinnacle less than one meter distant > from any metal. With one or two tiny pieces of magnet the tecnician > arranged for a maximum deviation of 2 deg. in half hour job. > > Mauro > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > > in the yard i'm in. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as > he is > > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I > installed > > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I > will do > > > in the fullness of time. > > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > > the main unit > > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass > on a > > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > > done? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15930|15930|2007-12-24 14:45:00|Tom|indusrial diesels|Hello All I have the opertunity to get a 3cyl kubota from a small tractor, what I was wondering is the factory water pump good enough to use with the skeg cooling or does it need to be converted to the sea water impeller type? Water cooled exhaust manifold would be simple to make and same with trans adapter. The engine Im lookin at is a bit over kill for the boat 25 bhp but its hard to beat the 0 price tag and it runs good and a lot smoother than a 2 cyl Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15931|15930|2007-12-24 16:11:13|brentswain38|Re: indusrial diesels|The water pump would be totaly adequate as long as you use a header tank. The watrer opnly has to be ciculated then, not lifted. Go dry exhuatrs and save t yourself a lot of trouble. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I have the opertunity to get a 3cyl kubota from a small tractor, what I was wondering is the factory water pump good enough to use with the skeg cooling or does it need to be converted to the sea water impeller type? Water cooled exhaust manifold would be simple to make and same with trans adapter. The engine Im lookin at is a bit over kill for the boat 25 bhp but its hard to beat the 0 price tag and it runs good and a lot smoother than a 2 cyl > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15932|15900|2007-12-24 16:14:14|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|iIrecently read a test on so called "high tech "radar reflectors . They found them ,less effective than the traditional sheet metal passive ones. They are definitly a suckers game. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The radar reflectors I've tried were by and large crap. I've heard > rumors of a new unit that actually works but don't know what it is > yet. If there's a good one out there, I havn't seen it. Plus, the guys > getting run down aren't getting doused because of not being on radar, > its because no one appears to be watching much of anything from the > bridge. > > My thought is that since its your boat and your life, take control > over possible collisions. My own solution is to put in the radar > detectors (i'm told there are two bands you have to worry about), and > my own radar which is designed to sleep, wake up every 15 minutes or > so, do a sweep, then scream like hell if it sees anything :) > > A third possibility is to put out a radar emitter. It is possible to > send out a signal equaling what they would see if you were a carrier :) > > Maybe that would get their attention up on the bridge LOL. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > what is your experience regarding the ability of other boats to see > > your steel hull on their radar scope? Do we need a radar reflector in > > addition, like a GRP-boat? After all, most of us are less than 40 feet > > LOA. > > > > Knut > > > | 15933|15900|2007-12-24 17:03:17|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Brent, that has been my feeling for a long time and it seems to not change... For that very reason I find it more than interesting to know (based on somebody's factual information?) if a <40' steel hull will show up with a good blip or not? In a seaway I guess it will be an unstable blip, but that aside, what about fog, flat water and lots of traffic in the approach to a major harbor? Will they see us (if they check their scope? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:14 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection iIrecently read a test on so called "high tech "radar reflectors . They found them ,less effective than the traditional sheet metal passive ones. They are definitly a suckers game. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The radar reflectors I've tried were by and large crap. I've heard > rumors of a new unit that actually works but don't know what it is > yet. If there's a good one out there, I havn't seen it. Plus, the guys > getting run down aren't getting doused because of not being on radar, > its because no one appears to be watching much of anything from the > bridge. > > My thought is that since its your boat and your life, take control > over possible collisions. My own solution is to put in the radar > detectors (i'm told there are two bands you have to worry about), and > my own radar which is designed to sleep, wake up every 15 minutes or > so, do a sweep, then scream like hell if it sees anything :) > > A third possibility is to put out a radar emitter. It is possible to > send out a signal equaling what they would see if you were a carrier :) > > Maybe that would get their attention up on the bridge LOL. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > what is your experience regarding the ability of other boats to see > > your steel hull on their radar scope? Do we need a radar reflector in > > addition, like a GRP-boat? After all, most of us are less than 40 feet > > LOA. > > > > Knut > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15934|15934|2007-12-24 22:51:45|Paul Wilson|Collison avioidance|I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for any ship over 300 tons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid being run over by ships (at least the big ones). Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new system. Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15935|15935|2007-12-25 01:58:39|rd_cedar|Seeking plans for 27'-28', centerboard, ocean-cruiser.|Seeking design plans for a 27'-28' ocean-cruiser adapted for 4.5mm hull plating, and 3mm deck plating, that will draw less than 3' with centerboard up, shallow cockpit over a double berth, standing headroom only over galley and enclosed head, with sitting headroom everywhere else. Anyone know of anything like that? Origami or not.| 15936|15934|2007-12-25 08:38:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Collison avioidance|On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > any ship over 300 tons. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works out to. A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from http://www.yachtinsure.com/news-auto-identification-systems.htm): ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status Time in UTC Course over ground Speed over ground Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually entered) Rate of turn (where available) Voyage related data Ship' s draft Hazardous cargo (type) Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) Safety-related messages ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 protocol. Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as far as I know. > For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > being run over by ships (at least the big ones). Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the > market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > system. I quote, from the above site: `` Class B AIS transponders are coming! Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If you are interested being notified when these products are available, please send us email by clicking on this link. '' -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15937|15900|2007-12-25 09:07:42|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 04:58:00PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > that has been my feeling for a long time and it seems to not change... For > that very reason I find it more than interesting to know (based on > somebody's factual information?) if a <40' steel hull will show up with a > good blip or not? In a seaway I guess it will be an unstable blip, but that > aside, what about fog, flat water and lots of traffic in the approach to a > major harbor? Will they see us (if they check their scope? This isn't specifically factual, but my best guess is "no". I used to work for Hughes Aircraft in their Millimeter-Wave Radar division in California, and the two key factors for radar in this scenario are target reflectivity and angle of reflection. The first has to do with how well the target itself bounces back the signal versus absorbing it - and frankly, a fiberglass boat isn't going to be perceptibly different from a steel one in this regard (a boat built out of foam would be hell to spot, though. :))) The second has to do with how much of the reflecting surface is directly perpendicular to the signal - and given a boat's curves, the answer is, again, less than encouraging. That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15938|15935|2007-12-25 10:10:15|Carl Volkwein|Re: Seeking plans for 27'-28', centerboard, ocean-cruiser.|You didn't say if it had to be in steel or not, you could mabe find something like that in say plywood or fiberglass, except mabe ocean capable rd_cedar wrote: Seeking design plans for a 27'-28' ocean-cruiser adapted for 4.5mm hull plating, and 3mm deck plating, that will draw less than 3' with centerboard up, shallow cockpit over a double berth, standing headroom only over galley and enclosed head, with sitting headroom everywhere else. Anyone know of anything like that? Origami or not. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15939|15930|2007-12-25 10:16:25|Tom|Re: indusrial diesels|Yes I would definantly go dry exhaust but wouldnt it be a good idea to run water cooled exhaust manifold? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: indusrial diesels > The water pump would be totaly adequate as long as you use a header > tank. The watrer opnly has to be ciculated then, not lifted. Go dry > exhuatrs and save t yourself a lot of trouble. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> I have the opertunity to get a 3cyl kubota from a small tractor, > what I was wondering is the factory water pump good enough to use > with the skeg cooling or does it need to be converted to the sea water > impeller type? Water cooled exhaust manifold would be simple to make > and same with trans adapter. The engine Im lookin at is a bit over > kill for the boat 25 bhp but its hard to beat the 0 price tag and it > runs good and a lot smoother than a 2 cyl >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 15940|15900|2007-12-25 12:13:34|Knut F Garshol|Steel hull and radar detection|So regarding this subject and the answers received so far, to me it looks like this: * we cannot trust the big guys to actually check their radar, especially not at a distance from land or harbor, so even if we give a good blip on their scope, we may still be run over * a steel hull is probably not going to give any better blip than a GRP-hull, which means poor and unreliable * radar reflectors are partly totally useless, but I hear statements about specific reflectors being very efficient with blips like a big ship (?) All the responses clearly support the view that any small yacht out there must act as if not being seen by the big guys. To improve the chances that they do see us (dense fog and harbor entrance situation), we cannot count on the steel hull to produce a clear blip, therefore an efficient radar reflector will help in this respect. The question is: CAN ANYBODY GIVE SPECIFICS ABOUT BRAND, MODEL AND PROOF OF EFFICIENCY FOR A RADAR REFLECTOR? If so, I would buy it. If not, I will read my own radar and be prepared for evasive action. Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15941|15930|2007-12-25 12:28:37|seeratlas|Re: indusrial diesels|I have that 3 cyl on my kubota tractor on the ranch. buy the engine :) never had any trouble with the motor and that thing has to be 20 years old. Should be just fine with skeg cooling, after all, its just a different looking radiator. I'd also go with dry exhaust out the back per brent's boat. save you lots of grief over the long run. I've replaced one helluva lot of heat exchangers...not much more corrosive that hot seawater.. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I have the opertunity to get a 3cyl kubota from a small tractor, what I was wondering is the factory water pump good enough to use with the skeg cooling or does it need to be converted to the sea water impeller type? Water cooled exhaust manifold would be simple to make and same with trans adapter. The engine Im lookin at is a bit over kill for the boat 25 bhp but its hard to beat the 0 price tag and it runs good and a lot smoother than a 2 cyl > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15942|15935|2007-12-25 17:06:04|rd_cedar|Re: Seeking plans for 27'-28', centerboard, ocean-cruiser.|Hi Carl, Definitely STEEL! 4.5mm hull plating and 3mm deck plating. Know of any steel plans or plans adapted to steel like the centerboard, ocean-cruiser I described? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > You didn't say if it had to be in steel or not, you could mabe find something like that in say plywood or fiberglass, except mabe ocean capable > > rd_cedar wrote: Seeking design plans for a 27'-28' ocean-cruiser adapted for 4.5mm hull > plating, and 3mm deck plating, that will draw less than 3' with > centerboard up, shallow cockpit over a double berth, standing headroom > only over galley and enclosed head, with sitting headroom everywhere > else. > Anyone know of anything like that? Origami or not. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15943|15900|2007-12-25 17:20:11|Aaron Williams|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|For those of you that have a radar on board allready, what is the deference between boats aluminun, grp, steel, Big fishing boat and ships. I have never had a radar so have always depended on my sight and sound method. Aaron Knut F Garshol wrote: So regarding this subject and the answers received so far, to me it looks like this: * we cannot trust the big guys to actually check their radar, especially not at a distance from land or harbor, so even if we give a good blip on their scope, we may still be run over * a steel hull is probably not going to give any better blip than a GRP-hull, which means poor and unreliable * radar reflectors are partly totally useless, but I hear statements about specific reflectors being very efficient with blips like a big ship (?) All the responses clearly support the view that any small yacht out there must act as if not being seen by the big guys. To improve the chances that they do see us (dense fog and harbor entrance situation), we cannot count on the steel hull to produce a clear blip, therefore an efficient radar reflector will help in this respect. The question is: CAN ANYBODY GIVE SPECIFICS ABOUT BRAND, MODEL AND PROOF OF EFFICIENCY FOR A RADAR REFLECTOR? If so, I would buy it. If not, I will read my own radar and be prepared for evasive action. Knut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15944|15934|2007-12-25 18:27:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Collison avioidance|I had the pleasure of making a short overnight offshore passage from the Manasquan, NJ inlet to Block Island, RI this past summer. We were on a 30 ft Cape Dory equipped with an AIS receiver hooked into the VHF using the masthead antennae for receiving and the Garmin Chart Plotter for display. Our trip took us directly across 8 lanes of ship traffic from New York Harbor. The AIS unit picked up the data from ships while they were still over the horizon and out of sight. It told us the name of the ship, what the cargo was (and whether it was considered hazardous), their length, draft, tonnage, speed over the bottom, course, and rate of turn. At one point we had 10 ships around us from 350 ft to over 900 ft. We only actually saw about 4 of them, and only one was of concern. It is disconcerting to see a ship over 400 ft directly bow on, and you can see the breaking wave! But it was comforting to know from the rate of turn that he wasn't going to be that for very long, and if he decided to stop turning we'd know it instantly. We also knew exactly who to hail if necessary. At about $125 for the receiver this goes in my no-brainer list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: >> I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas >> present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for >> any ship over 300 tons. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System > > As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet > for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works > out to. > > A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of > the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it > turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain > responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged > vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with > boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. > > According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed > on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be > a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with > countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their > traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, > Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) > > The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) > have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary > navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be > amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a > few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from > http://www.yachtinsure.com/news-auto-identification-systems.htm): > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status > Time in UTC Course over ground > Speed over ground > Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually > entered) > Rate of turn (where available) > > Voyage related data > Ship' s draft > Hazardous cargo (type) > Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) > > Safety-related messages > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you > change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 > protocol. > > Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as > far as I know. > >> For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid >> being run over by ships (at least the big ones). > > Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is > watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > >> Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the >> market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new >> system. > > I quote, from the above site: > > `` > Class B AIS transponders are coming! > Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? > Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech > Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If > you are interested being notified when these products are available, > please send us email by clicking on this link. > '' > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15945|15900|2007-12-25 18:31:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|If you want to know if your steel boat will be highly visible to radar simply compare it to the F-117 stealth fighters shape. Amazing similar eh? IT is nearly impossible for radar to see very flat surfaces, unless you are absolutely square to the beam, then you get a just a flash for the instant you stay that way. I think you'd better plan on a radar reflector! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 04:58:00PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: >> >> that has been my feeling for a long time and it seems to not change... >> For >> that very reason I find it more than interesting to know (based on >> somebody's factual information?) if a <40' steel hull will show up with a >> good blip or not? In a seaway I guess it will be an unstable blip, but >> that >> aside, what about fog, flat water and lots of traffic in the approach to >> a >> major harbor? Will they see us (if they check their scope? > > This isn't specifically factual, but my best guess is "no". I used to > work for Hughes Aircraft in their Millimeter-Wave Radar division in > California, and the two key factors for radar in this scenario are > target reflectivity and angle of reflection. The first has to do with > how well the target itself bounces back the signal versus absorbing it - > and frankly, a fiberglass boat isn't going to be perceptibly different > from a steel one in this regard (a boat built out of foam would be hell > to spot, though. :))) The second has to do with how much of the > reflecting surface is directly perpendicular to the signal - and given a > boat's curves, the answer is, again, less than encouraging. > > That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" > always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar > reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15946|15934|2007-12-25 19:19:38|Paul Wilson|Re: Collison avioidance|Hi Ben, I was thinking of getting one of the systems that is receiver only. I agree that the logistics of having the full system that transmits as well would probably be impractical for a yacht. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:38:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > any ship over 300 tons. > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Automatic_ Identification_ System As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works out to. A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from http://www.yachtins ure.com/news- auto-identificat ion-systems. htm): ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status Time in UTC Course over ground Speed over ground Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually entered) Rate of turn (where available) Voyage related data Ship' s draft Hazardous cargo (type) Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) Safety-related messages ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 protocol. Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as far as I know. > For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > being run over by ships (at least the big ones). Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > Also check out www.milltechmarine. com for an example of units on the > market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > system. I quote, from the above site: `` Class B AIS transponders are coming! Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If you are interested being notified when these products are available, please send us email by clicking on this link. '' -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15947|15900|2007-12-25 19:30:57|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detectio|Gary, as you can see from other emails on the subject, that is also where I am at the moment. The question therefore is: WHICH RADAR REFLECTOR!!? (Because they range from useless to echo like big ships, as I understand it). Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 6:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection If you want to know if your steel boat will be highly visible to radar simply compare it to the F-117 stealth fighters shape. Amazing similar eh? IT is nearly impossible for radar to see very flat surfaces, unless you are absolutely square to the beam, then you get a just a flash for the instant you stay that way. I think you'd better plan on a radar reflector! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" net> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 04:58:00PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: >> >> that has been my feeling for a long time and it seems to not change... >> For >> that very reason I find it more than interesting to know (based on >> somebody's factual information?) if a <40' steel hull will show up with a >> good blip or not? In a seaway I guess it will be an unstable blip, but >> that >> aside, what about fog, flat water and lots of traffic in the approach to >> a >> major harbor? Will they see us (if they check their scope? > > This isn't specifically factual, but my best guess is "no". I used to > work for Hughes Aircraft in their Millimeter-Wave Radar division in > California, and the two key factors for radar in this scenario are > target reflectivity and angle of reflection. The first has to do with > how well the target itself bounces back the signal versus absorbing it - > and frankly, a fiberglass boat isn't going to be perceptibly different > from a steel one in this regard (a boat built out of foam would be hell > to spot, though. :))) The second has to do with how much of the > reflecting surface is directly perpendicular to the signal - and given a > boat's curves, the answer is, again, less than encouraging. > > That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" > always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar > reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15948|15900|2007-12-25 20:21:42|David A. Frantz|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|It is interesting the relationship between optics and radar. Radar reflectors are in essence retro reflectors. So given a little bit of undestaning of wave lengths it seems like you could easily build your own reflector. Maybe even incorporate the design into the boat. Of course all those right angles might have your boat looking like an F117, but a little creativity ought to deal with that. Dave Ben Okopnik wrote: > > That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" > always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar > reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 15949|15934|2007-12-25 20:47:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Collison avioidance|On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 06:27:16PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > I had the pleasure of making a short overnight offshore passage from the > Manasquan, NJ inlet to Block Island, RI this past summer. We were on a 30 > ft Cape Dory equipped with an AIS receiver hooked into the VHF using the > masthead antennae for receiving and the Garmin Chart Plotter for display. > Our trip took us directly across 8 lanes of ship traffic from New York > Harbor. The AIS unit picked up the data from ships while they were still > over the horizon and out of sight. It told us the name of the ship, what > the cargo was (and whether it was considered hazardous), their length, > draft, tonnage, speed over the bottom, course, and rate of turn. At one > point we had 10 ships around us from 350 ft to over 900 ft. We only > actually saw about 4 of them, and only one was of concern. It is > disconcerting to see a ship over 400 ft directly bow on, and you can see the > breaking wave! But it was comforting to know from the rate of turn that he > wasn't going to be that for very long, and if he decided to stop turning > we'd know it instantly. We also knew exactly who to hail if necessary. > > At about $125 for the receiver this goes in my no-brainer list. That would be an AIS _receiver,_ which have been available for a bit now. The transmitters are what I was talking about; sorry about not being clear. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15950|15900|2007-12-25 20:53:19|Gary H. Lucas|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Having done quite a lot of work with retroreflective photoeyes I am very familiar with corner cube reflectors. Basically if you have 3 sides of a cube with all angles exactly 90 degrees, a beam going in will always come out on an exactly parallel path. This is the basis of the round ball style radar reflectors. There is a dead spot when you are dead on the edge of one of the sides, hence the design of some reflectors with one corner cube twisted 45 degrees to another. The big problem is that a 1 square foot reflector still LOOKS like a 1 sq ft object to a radar beam! So basic physics says beyond getting as good a reflection as you can, size IS everything! Now the optical guys have created plastic sheets with thousands of tiny 3 corner retroreflectors molded into the surface. I used to buy this stuff in sheets and put it on round pipes to make them visible to photoeyes, even at an angle. Now if we could pattern the entire surface of the mast with small 3 corner pits maybe we could make the entire mast a radar reflector! The gotcha I don't know here is how the wavelength of radar would relate to the pit size. Light is a MUCH shorter wavelength! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Frantz" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > It is interesting the relationship between optics and radar. Radar > reflectors are in essence retro reflectors. So given a little bit of > undestaning of wave lengths it seems like you could easily build your > own reflector. Maybe even incorporate the design into the boat. > > Of course all those right angles might have your boat looking like an > F117, but a little creativity ought to deal with that. > > Dave > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" >> always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar >> reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >> http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> >> > > | 15951|15934|2007-12-25 20:55:14|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Collison avioidance|Ben, I know that is what you are talking about. However since the big ships are being forced to carry the transmitters, and little boats aren't a very big threat to a steel boat, then the receiver alone is still very valuable. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance > On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 06:27:16PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> I had the pleasure of making a short overnight offshore passage from the >> Manasquan, NJ inlet to Block Island, RI this past summer. We were on a >> 30 >> ft Cape Dory equipped with an AIS receiver hooked into the VHF using the >> masthead antennae for receiving and the Garmin Chart Plotter for display. >> Our trip took us directly across 8 lanes of ship traffic from New York >> Harbor. The AIS unit picked up the data from ships while they were still >> over the horizon and out of sight. It told us the name of the ship, what >> the cargo was (and whether it was considered hazardous), their length, >> draft, tonnage, speed over the bottom, course, and rate of turn. At one >> point we had 10 ships around us from 350 ft to over 900 ft. We only >> actually saw about 4 of them, and only one was of concern. It is >> disconcerting to see a ship over 400 ft directly bow on, and you can see >> the >> breaking wave! But it was comforting to know from the rate of turn that >> he >> wasn't going to be that for very long, and if he decided to stop turning >> we'd know it instantly. We also knew exactly who to hail if necessary. >> >> At about $125 for the receiver this goes in my no-brainer list. > > That would be an AIS _receiver,_ which have been available for a bit > now. The transmitters are what I was talking about; sorry about not > being clear. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15952|15934|2007-12-25 20:55:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Collison avioidance|On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 04:19:33PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I was thinking of getting one of the systems that is receiver only. > I agree that the logistics of having the full system that transmits as > well would probably be impractical for a yacht. Makes sense - particularly for those "just-over-the-horizon" bits. However, a note of caution (that's me, to a tee :) - don't rely on it to tell you about every possible ship around you; AIS is only required on 300 ton and up vessels. A 299-tonner would hurt just as much. :) Reminds me of an airplane collision over Switzerland a couple of years back: it was a German and a Russian plane, IIRC, both with anti-collision systems on board. Both of them got a warning from their systems when they headed toward each other. The German pilot followed his system's advice (increase altitude), which is what the Germans are trained to do; the Russian, however, followed the tower's advice (increase altitude...) - which is what the Russians are trained to do. Luckily, both were just freight dogs; no casualties besides the crews. Point being - as always - you're the captain, Captain. The gadgets will give you info, but the final decision and the final responsibility is always yours. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15953|15934|2007-12-25 21:06:35|Ben Okopnik|Re: Collison avioidance|On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 08:55:00PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Ben, > I know that is what you are talking about. However since the big ships are > being forced to carry the transmitters, and little boats aren't a very big > threat to a steel boat, then the receiver alone is still very valuable. Agreed - assuming the usual cautions about gadgets, fallback planning, and that old "prudent mariner" warning. I _like_ gadgets - I like them a lot, in fact. I just don't ever want to put myself in a position of relying on them. That's *really* dangerous - because it's not about the gadget itself but a mode of thought that can lead you into trouble. That's why you always see me being a curmudgeon about stuff like this. :) Other than that, I think that an AIS receiver a great tool. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15954|15900|2007-12-25 21:22:31|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 08:52:58PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Now if we could pattern the entire surface of the mast with small > 3 corner pits maybe we could make the entire mast a radar reflector! The > gotcha I don't know here is how the wavelength of radar would relate to the > pit size. Light is a MUCH shorter wavelength! Radar, as I recall, is usually in the EHF range - i.e., 30-300GHz; that gives a wavelength of 1-10 millimeters. That sounds like a reasonable size for pits to be used as a mast surface. Gary, you could go into business and probably make a fortune with that. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15955|15900|2007-12-25 22:28:20|seeratlas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|-On my previous boat I had a 48 mile system from Furono. You don't get 48 miles on a sailboat :) but it gets you more detail using more power and a wider antena array. It was easy to distinguish small from large boats on the seaward side, and it was very useful for finding inlets in the fog. Today's radars, (i am told) are more sensitive and the displays are certainly more colorful. I'm in the process of trying to figure out which radar system to put on the 44. I've heard good things about the Garmin, and the JRC. I'll be trying to bum a ride on boats with the current setups to see the differences before I choose. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > For those of you that have a radar on board allready, what is the deference between boats aluminun, grp, steel, Big fishing boat and ships. I have never had a radar so have always depended on my sight and sound method. > Aaron > > Knut F Garshol wrote: > So regarding this subject and the answers received so far, to me it looks > like this: > > * we cannot trust the big guys to actually check their radar, > especially not at a distance from land or harbor, so even if we give a good > blip on their scope, we may still be run over > * a steel hull is probably not going to give any better blip than a > GRP-hull, which means poor and unreliable > * radar reflectors are partly totally useless, but I hear statements > about specific reflectors being very efficient with blips like a big ship > (?) > > All the responses clearly support the view that any small yacht out there > must act as if not being seen by the big guys. > > To improve the chances that they do see us (dense fog and harbor entrance > situation), we cannot count on the steel hull to produce a clear blip, > therefore an efficient radar reflector will help in this respect. The > question is: CAN ANYBODY GIVE SPECIFICS ABOUT BRAND, MODEL AND PROOF OF > EFFICIENCY FOR A RADAR REFLECTOR? If so, I would buy it. If not, I will read > my own radar and be prepared for evasive action. > > Knut > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15956|15934|2007-12-25 22:30:24|seeratlas|Re: Collison avioidance|Whose, i.e. which manufacturers AIS unit? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had the pleasure of making a short overnight offshore passage from the > Manasquan, NJ inlet to Block Island, RI this past summer. We were on a 30 > ft Cape Dory equipped with an AIS receiver hooked into the VHF using the > masthead antennae for receiving and the Garmin Chart Plotter for display. > Our trip took us directly across 8 lanes of ship traffic from New York > Harbor. The AIS unit picked up the data from ships while they were still > over the horizon and out of sight. It told us the name of the ship, what > the cargo was (and whether it was considered hazardous), their length, > draft, tonnage, speed over the bottom, course, and rate of turn. At one > point we had 10 ships around us from 350 ft to over 900 ft. We only > actually saw about 4 of them, and only one was of concern. It is > disconcerting to see a ship over 400 ft directly bow on, and you can see the > breaking wave! But it was comforting to know from the rate of turn that he > wasn't going to be that for very long, and if he decided to stop turning > we'd know it instantly. We also knew exactly who to hail if necessary. > > At about $125 for the receiver this goes in my no-brainer list. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Okopnik" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:38 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance > > > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > >> I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > >> present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > >> any ship over 300 tons. > >> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System > > > > As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet > > for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works > > out to. > > > > A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of > > the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it > > turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain > > responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged > > vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with > > boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. > > > > According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed > > on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be > > a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with > > countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their > > traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, > > Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) > > > > The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) > > have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary > > navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be > > amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a > > few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from > > http://www.yachtinsure.com/news-auto-identification-systems.htm): > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status > > Time in UTC Course over ground > > Speed over ground > > Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually > > entered) > > Rate of turn (where available) > > > > Voyage related data > > Ship' s draft > > Hazardous cargo (type) > > Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) > > > > Safety-related messages > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you > > change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 > > protocol. > > > > Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as > > far as I know. > > > >> For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > >> being run over by ships (at least the big ones). > > > > Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is > > watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > > > >> Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the > >> market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > >> system. > > > > I quote, from the above site: > > > > `` > > Class B AIS transponders are coming! > > Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? > > Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech > > Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If > > you are interested being notified when these products are available, > > please send us email by clicking on this link. > > '' > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15957|15934|2007-12-25 22:37:29|seeratlas|Re: Collison avioidance|Hmmmm, well, I don't mind taking the advice of a proven piece of gear. As a former pilot I found that not believing your instruments gets more people killed than the converse. For this big ship problem, I think it wise to employ several cooperative strategies. All in all, I still like the radar with the proximity alarm the best tho...but I think in terms of single or short handed crewing. Would be hard for a tanker to sneak up on a working radar. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 08:55:00PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Ben, > > I know that is what you are talking about. However since the big ships are > > being forced to carry the transmitters, and little boats aren't a very big > > threat to a steel boat, then the receiver alone is still very valuable. > > Agreed - assuming the usual cautions about gadgets, fallback planning, > and that old "prudent mariner" warning. I _like_ gadgets - I like them a > lot, in fact. I just don't ever want to put myself in a position of > relying on them. That's *really* dangerous - because it's not about the > gadget itself but a mode of thought that can lead you into trouble. > That's why you always see me being a curmudgeon about stuff like this. > :) > > Other than that, I think that an AIS receiver a great tool. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15958|15900|2007-12-25 23:00:04|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 03:28:19AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > -On my previous boat I had a 48 mile system from Furono. You don't > get 48 miles on a sailboat :) [laugh] Not unless you have an 1800'-high mast, no (that's the required observation height for a 48 mile horizon.) I always found it amusing when people bought those so they could "see further". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15959|15959|2007-12-25 23:12:41|heretic_37ft|Open letter to Origami Boats:|Open letter to Origami Boats: The Brent Swain (BS) 36 (+1) built by Brent and Dan Henkel which I am sailing and maintaining is the absolute best in design and construction. Brent Swain is a lawful master at this type of craft. The U.S. America yacht crap built in my area is confusing and boarder line criminal at best. Thank you Brent -- sailing is fun again. Heretic_37ft| 15960|15934|2007-12-25 23:39:12|Ben Okopnik|Re: Collison avioidance|On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 03:37:27AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Hmmmm, well, I don't mind taking the advice of a proven piece of gear. > As a former pilot I found that not believing your instruments gets > more people killed than the converse. As a former pilot myself, I'm pretty big on the "trust but check" principle: if the instruments make sense, I go with what they tell me. Otherwise, I start looking for a place to land. If you do anything else, you end up like that pilot out of Mumbai some years back: kept staring at his artificial horizon and wouldn't even look through the windshield right in front of him - even though his gut was telling him that he had stopped climbing and was diving for the deck, even though the visibility was literally perfect, even though his navigator was telling him that he's doing the wrong thing (all this off the black box.) His gyro had tumbled - so he killed 300+ people as a result. Conversely, there are times when the instruments are _all_ that you can trust: Sperry's "spinning chair" experiments proved that pilots that fly solely "by feel" are guaranteed to eat dirt when flying in fog or darkness. Flying is art as much as it is science - and it really is a hell of a lot of both, mostly learned by people crashing and dying in the early days. The trick in making this kind of decisions, according to me :), is to keep it as simple as possible - but no simpler. In an ideal world, all my critical decisions would be made based on good, trustworthy resources that are supported by evidence from at least one other resource - and that secondary resource would get its data via a completely different method from the first one. In practice, this often works out to personal observation backed by some calculated data - and if the two disagree in any way, I proceed with a higher level of caution. > For this big ship problem, I think it wise to employ several > cooperative strategies. Yep. Agreed, completely. > All in all, I still like the radar with the > proximity alarm the best tho...but I think in terms of single or short > handed crewing. Would be hard for a tanker to sneak up on a working > radar. I was sailing aboard someone else's 36' S2 in heavy rain one time, crossing Long Island Sound to Connecticut. He had his radar on, and was watching it; I was on the helm. I was feeling a little uneasy about the dodger occluding my field of view, and had asked the owner/captain to strike it; he grumbled something about "my dodger *always* stays up, it's just fine" so I left it alone. Less than ten minutes later, a 50+ footer came out of the fog on a parallel reciprocal course - about 50' away from us. The woman on the helm there - completely exposed to the weather, no dodger or anything else in the way - gave me a curt wave as she passed me; she had obviously seen us, while we had no idea that she was there (the radar had lost her in the "grass", I guess.) The owner struck that dodger so fast, I thought he was going to break a few fingers. :) Radar has gotten a lot better than it used to be - but the discriminator function is still about the most important gadget on it, especially for the kind of use you're talking about. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15961|15900|2007-12-26 04:42:46|sae140|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking of the Ouzo can be found at: http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion reached by: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts (supposedly) on station ? Colin| 15962|15900|2007-12-26 13:20:33|Michael Casling|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|I can tell you that from the bridge of a large ferry a yacht is a very small blip. I have looked at the screen and looked out the window to identify a particular boat. If the waters are a bit rough there is a lot of scatter on the screen from the waves. If you turn down the gain the boat signal diminishes. From the bridge of a 55 foot North Sea fishing boat. On a bumpy day boats around 50 to sixty feet only show up once in a while at a range of 1/2 to 3/4 miles. In this case I knew the other boats position accurately as they had relayed by radio. During the Swiftsure race we encounter quite a few ships, maybe 10 or 12 all told. The ships are informed of the race and the fact there might be 100 or more sail boats in their paths. I think it is paramount that we observe large vessels and get out of their way. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking of the Ouzo can be found at: http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion reached by: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts (supposedly) on station ? Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15963|15900|2007-12-26 14:05:55|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Colin, thanks for VERY useful and above all accurate information on an important subject. The picture gets clearer the deeper you dive into the problem: You cannot count on being seen on the big ship radar (with or without radar reflector or steel hull does not really matter). I think the radar reflector is just going to give a false sense of safety under most conditions and the yacht crew will have to ensure their own safety by their own means and actions. For thick fog (when there is normally no wind to talk about and calm sea), I will have a BIG radar reflector (e.g. size influences efficiency by the 4th power for trihedral reflectors) properly oriented under the spreaders. Other times, the reflector will be stowed for handy retrieval and prepared for quick and easy hoisting. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sae140 Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking of the Ouzo can be found at: http://www.rya org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion reached by: http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts (supposedly) on station ? Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15964|15900|2007-12-26 19:18:38|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|No thanks, I've already lost several small fortunes on great ideas. Now I give them away for free, and save a ton of money. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 08:52:58PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> >> Now if we could pattern the entire surface of the mast with small >> 3 corner pits maybe we could make the entire mast a radar reflector! The >> gotcha I don't know here is how the wavelength of radar would relate to >> the >> pit size. Light is a MUCH shorter wavelength! > > Radar, as I recall, is usually in the EHF range - i.e., 30-300GHz; that > gives a wavelength of 1-10 millimeters. That sounds like a reasonable > size for pits to be used as a mast surface. Gary, you could go into > business and probably make a fortune with that. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15965|15934|2007-12-26 19:21:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Collison avioidance|I don't know, I only saw it attached to a bulkhead, about the size of a pack of cigarettes. However I can email the guy and find out. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Collison avioidance Whose, i.e. which manufacturers AIS unit? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had the pleasure of making a short overnight offshore passage from the > Manasquan, NJ inlet to Block Island, RI this past summer. We were on a 30 > ft Cape Dory equipped with an AIS receiver hooked into the VHF using the > masthead antennae for receiving and the Garmin Chart Plotter for display. > Our trip took us directly across 8 lanes of ship traffic from New York > Harbor. The AIS unit picked up the data from ships while they were still > over the horizon and out of sight. It told us the name of the ship, what > the cargo was (and whether it was considered hazardous), their length, > draft, tonnage, speed over the bottom, course, and rate of turn. At one > point we had 10 ships around us from 350 ft to over 900 ft. We only > actually saw about 4 of them, and only one was of concern. It is > disconcerting to see a ship over 400 ft directly bow on, and you can see the > breaking wave! But it was comforting to know from the rate of turn that he > wasn't going to be that for very long, and if he decided to stop turning > we'd know it instantly. We also knew exactly who to hail if necessary. > > At about $125 for the receiver this goes in my no-brainer list. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Okopnik" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:38 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance > > > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > >> I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > >> present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > >> any ship over 300 tons. > >> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System > > > > As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet > > for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works > > out to. > > > > A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of > > the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it > > turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain > > responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged > > vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with > > boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. > > > > According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed > > on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be > > a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with > > countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their > > traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, > > Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) > > > > The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) > > have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary > > navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be > > amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a > > few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from > > http://www.yachtinsure.com/news-auto-identification-systems.htm): > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status > > Time in UTC Course over ground > > Speed over ground > > Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually > > entered) > > Rate of turn (where available) > > > > Voyage related data > > Ship' s draft > > Hazardous cargo (type) > > Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) > > > > Safety-related messages > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you > > change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 > > protocol. > > > > Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as > > far as I know. > > > >> For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > >> being run over by ships (at least the big ones). > > > > Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is > > watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > > > >> Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the > >> market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > >> system. > > > > I quote, from the above site: > > > > `` > > Class B AIS transponders are coming! > > Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? > > Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech > > Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If > > you are interested being notified when these products are available, > > please send us email by clicking on this link. > > '' > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15966|15900|2007-12-26 21:16:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > No thanks, > I've already lost several small fortunes on great ideas. Now I give them > away for free, and save a ton of money. [laugh] Gary, you'll notice that I offered you the opportunity instead of jumping on it myself. I think we went to the same school - Hard Knocks U, that is. I graduated in 1975 - and '76, and '77, and '80, and... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15967|15900|2007-12-26 22:23:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 09:42:40AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > of the Ouzo can be found at: > http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf Excellent report - thanks for the pointer, Colin. A lot of good, solid conclusions, even though the major driving force behind it appears to be "how do we apportion the responsibility, particularly on the commercial end" rather than "how do we put in effective safeguards on both sides?" or "what changes are necessary to provide a margin of safety?" To give them their due, it's a hell of a lot harder - some might say nearly impossible - to reach the amateur sailor, whereas the channels to the commercial guys are well established and in constant use. This is a major problem - since the greatest bulk of the danger (which to my mind also spells "the greatest share of responsibility") falls on that amateur sailor. There are limitations to sailing in a small yacht. We don't have a crew of experienced watch-standers on duty at all times, educated at maritime academies and cross-checking each other. Given that, and given that fact that we - and not the big guys - are the ones that are going to die when things go wrong, it's upon us to take measures, even ones that seem extreme, to avoid any close approaches to the big guys except in clear, controlled conditions where everyone is aware of what's going on. Had "Ouzo" shined her spotlight on her sails when still a couple of miles away - had she called the other ship on the VHF ("Ship at approximate latitude X, longitude Y: this is S/V Ouzo, latitude X1 longitude Y1, heading Z. We plan on leaving you on our (port/starboard), sir. What are your intentions?") - had they tacked or jibed to change their course radically well ahead of time - they would have still been alive. "Right of way" doesn't mean anything when you're dead. > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > reached by: > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > (supposedly) on station ? As I'd mentioned earlier, I approach sailing in shipping lanes (and long passages in general) as I do my motorcycle riding: I never leave it to the other guy to not hit me. I stay aware of the traffic around me, and always keep an exit strategy in mind. I've stayed safe that way for many years, and over many thousands of miles. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15968|15900|2007-12-27 00:15:45|cptcrunch100|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|If I could put in my radar return. Slade Green in a flat sea with out obstruction put back a decent radar return but with any lind of scatter wind, waves, or rain squalls forget it. When the hull only stands 4 ft above the water and the wave is ten feet, forget it. Friends use a C.A.R.D. system on there swain 36. It detects radar use and retuns the info onto a 4 quadrant display. The only hitch is the offending traffic(the ship not sailboat)has to have there radar on, not on Standby. Two instances that come to my mind both occured on route from Morro Bay Ca. to Catalina Island. The Santa Barbara Channal is an extremly busy commercial route. This night was fog 15 ft vis down to the water, very little wind and worst of all for your senses motor on. After hearing a fellow sailing nearly meet is end over the VHF, by trying to divert a large panamanian tanker from ontop of him. we decided to take what we thought of at the time as the safer route. Through the military testing area and misile test sights. The Radio stated there was know test currently under way. With radar running at 12 mile that's when we picked up the first return. While trying to maintain a safe distance from this oncoming traffic by consistent course deviation. On the radar the contact claimed to be at over 1 mile but the sound of its bow wake could clearly be heard. VHF comunication had been consistantly ignored or not heard from the other vessel. At this point the radar had been tuned to 2 mile, the contact was streching from within the one mile ring past the scopes radius. Only on a dark fog rainy night can this kind of crap just go on and on. My last chance or breath in my currant state of panic was to comunicate my own Lat and Long to the L.A. Coast guard radio operator. Not a second after the coast guard radio operator announced a Securitae and request for the ships position a station boomed back over the channel that my vessel should maintain course and speed. I figured in retro spect it must have an air craft carrier, but why scare the crap out of a guy like that. At least it mean't he could see me on his radar, I hope. Later on that same trip while Sailing on from Catalina to San Diego I had a blip on my radar that would normally be a vessel the size of a small fishing boat trail me over 60 nm. I could only make out a dim riding light in the direction where it sat 3 to 6 miles off my stbd. When the sun finally did rise 10 miles from the entance to SanDiego bay. The blip turned out to be largest war frigate I've ever seen in my life. Radar proof? Just think of the man power and equipment costs it must have taken to trail this 30ft Canadian sailing vessel for 10hrs. Christophe S.V.Slade Green Is this AIS system commercially avail.| 15969|15934|2007-12-27 07:40:15|audeojude|Re: Collison avioidance|I have read of several sailboats that are using active AIS already. They swear by it and I have not heard of anyone giving the grief yet about it. Some amazement that they have it :) but no grief :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > > present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > > any ship over 300 tons. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System > > As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet > for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works > out to. > > A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of > the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it > turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain > responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged > vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with > boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. > > According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed > on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be > a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with > countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their > traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, > Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) > > The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) > have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary > navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be > amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a > few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from > http://www.yachtinsure.com/news-auto-identification-systems.htm): > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status > Time in UTC Course over ground > Speed over ground > Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually entered) > Rate of turn (where available) > > Voyage related data > Ship' s draft > Hazardous cargo (type) > Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) > > Safety-related messages > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you > change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 > protocol. > > Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as > far as I know. > > > For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > > being run over by ships (at least the big ones). > > Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is > watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > > > Also check out www.milltechmarine.com for an example of units on the > > market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > > system. > > I quote, from the above site: > > `` > Class B AIS transponders are coming! > Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? > Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech > Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If > you are interested being notified when these products are available, > please send us email by clicking on this link. > '' > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15970|15970|2007-12-27 11:59:00|michaelandmonica2003|Multi hulls|has anyone used Brent's technique to build a multi hull? we are thinking of a tri or possibly a cat for cruising.| 15971|15934|2007-12-27 17:39:00|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Collison avioidance|You could always get a Schipperke - a Belgian barge dog about the size of a large cat.As well as company and security they were also bred to detect approaching vessels,Belgian canals being notoriously susceptible to fog.Anyway there was something in one of the comics about them recently - I think it was in Practical Boat Owner - where the owner said that they were pretty effective at sea as well.It wasn't the April 1st issue either cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 15972|15970|2007-12-28 15:36:39|brentswain38|Re: Multi hulls|There is absolutely no reason you couldn't use origami methods to build a multihull, either in Aluminium or sheet fibreglass, or any other sheet material. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "michaelandmonica2003" wrote: > > has anyone used Brent's technique to build a multi hull? we are thinking of a tri or possibly a > cat for cruising. > | 15973|15900|2007-12-28 15:40:42|brentswain38|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|That's why my radar reflector is on my masthead, and why I avoid sailing in US waters, especially southern california. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > If I could put in my radar return. Slade Green in a flat sea with > out obstruction put back a decent radar return but with any lind of > scatter wind, waves, or rain squalls forget it. When the hull only > stands 4 ft above the water and the wave is ten feet, forget it. > Friends use a C.A.R.D. system on there swain 36. It detects radar > use and retuns the info onto a 4 quadrant display. The only hitch is > the offending traffic(the ship not sailboat)has to have there radar > on, not on Standby. > Two instances that come to my mind both occured on route from Morro > Bay Ca. to Catalina Island. The Santa Barbara Channal is an extremly > busy commercial route. This night was fog 15 ft vis down to the > water, very little wind and worst of all for your senses motor on. > After hearing a fellow sailing nearly meet is end over the VHF, by > trying to divert a large panamanian tanker from ontop of him. we > decided to take what we thought of at the time as the safer route. > Through the military testing area and misile test sights. The Radio > stated there was know test currently under way. With radar running > at 12 mile that's when we picked up the first return. While trying > to maintain a safe distance from this oncoming traffic by consistent > course deviation. On the radar the contact claimed to be at over 1 > mile but the sound of its bow wake could clearly be heard. VHF > comunication had been consistantly ignored or not heard from the > other vessel. At this point the radar had been tuned to 2 mile, the > contact was streching from within the one mile ring past the scopes > radius. Only on a dark fog rainy night can this kind of crap just go > on and on. My last chance or breath in my currant state of panic was > to comunicate my own Lat and Long to the L.A. Coast guard radio > operator. Not a second after the coast guard radio operator > announced a Securitae and request for the ships position a station > boomed back over the channel that my vessel should maintain course > and speed. I figured in retro spect it must have an air craft > carrier, but why scare the crap out of a guy like that. At least it > mean't he could see me on his radar, I hope. Later on that same trip > while Sailing on from Catalina to San Diego I had a blip on my radar > that would normally be a vessel the size of a small fishing boat > trail me over 60 nm. I could only make out a dim riding light in the > direction where it sat 3 to 6 miles off my stbd. When the sun > finally did rise 10 miles from the entance to SanDiego bay. The blip > turned out to be largest war frigate I've ever seen in my life. > Radar proof? Just think of the man power and equipment costs it must > have taken to trail this 30ft Canadian sailing vessel for 10hrs. > > Christophe > S.V.Slade Green > > Is this AIS system commercially avail. > | 15974|15934|2007-12-28 15:42:25|brentswain38|Re: Collison avioidance|The cheaper ones plug into a computer , which often draws a lot of power. The sitex ones are self contained and draw only milliamps, but cost a lot more. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > I was thinking of getting one of the systems that is receiver only. I agree that the logistics of having the full system that transmits as well would probably be impractical for a yacht. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:38:40 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Collison avioidance > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 07:51:41PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I am not sure if everyone has seen this or not but my next Christmas > > present for the boat will be an AIS system....it is now mandatory for > > any ship over 300 tons. > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Automatic_ Identification_ System > > As I understand it, right at the moment, there's no provision as of yet > for non-SOLAS craft AIS. Class B is coming "soon"... whatever that works > out to. > > A few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with the commander of > the US Coast Guard unit at Governor's Island, New York about AIS - it > turned out that he is the one at the top of the command chain > responsible for overseeing, implementing, etc. AIS for all US-flagged > vessels (I ran into this guy purely by accident - nothing to do with > boats. Small world...) That's where I first heard of it. > > According to him, it's a really great system - but cannot be installed > on a small boat, either legally or technically (I eagerly offered to be > a guinea pig. :) The legal aspect comes in when you're dealing with > countries that poll the passing ships for AIS data; you'd confuse their > traffic control systems, and pissing off the government of, say, > Ethiopia as you pass through the Red Sea is not a good idea. :) > > The technical aspect is that a small yacht simply does not (normally) > have all the required shipboard sensors, or follow the necessary > navigational shipboard routine - and either the rules will have to be > amended or you'll need to make those technical changes. Here are just a > few things that you have to report for AIS compliance (from > http://www.yachtins ure.com/news- auto-identificat ion-systems. htm): > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > Ship' s position with accuracy indication and integrity status > Time in UTC Course over ground > Speed over ground > Heading Navigational status (e.g., at anchor, not under command, manually entered) > Rate of turn (where available) > > Voyage related data > Ship' s draft > Hazardous cargo (type) > Destination and ETA (at master's discretion) > > Safety-related messages > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Not only do you have to enter all the nav status data every time you > change status, but you have to have sensors that "speak" the NMEA-0183 > protocol. > > Class B is supposed to amend all that... but it hasn't happened yet, as > far as I know. > > > For a relatively low price, I can't think of a better way to avoid > > being run over by ships (at least the big ones). > > Erm... again, same problem as with radar: that assumes that someone is > watching. A doubtful assumption at best. > > > Also check out www.milltechmarine. com for an example of units on the > > market. Newer models are coming out all the time since it is a new > > system. > > I quote, from the above site: > > `` > Class B AIS transponders are coming! > Interested in getting an AIS transponder for your recreational vessel? > Class B AIS transponders will soon be available in the US and Milltech > Marine will be offering a complete Class B AIS transponder solution. If > you are interested being notified when these products are available, > please send us email by clicking on this link. > '' > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15975|15900|2007-12-28 15:43:28|brentswain38|[SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Traditional sheet metal reflectors are as good as any. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Gary, > > > > as you can see from other emails on the subject, that is also where I am at > the moment. The question therefore is: WHICH RADAR REFLECTOR!!? (Because > they range from useless to echo like big ships, as I understand it). > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 6:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > If you want to know if your steel boat will be highly visible to radar > simply compare it to the F-117 stealth fighters shape. Amazing similar eh? > IT is nearly impossible for radar to see very flat surfaces, unless you are > absolutely square to the beam, then you get a just a flash for the instant > you stay that way. I think you'd better plan on a radar reflector! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Okopnik" net> > To: yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2007 at 04:58:00PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > >> > >> that has been my feeling for a long time and it seems to not change... > >> For > >> that very reason I find it more than interesting to know (based on > >> somebody's factual information?) if a <40' steel hull will show up with a > >> good blip or not? In a seaway I guess it will be an unstable blip, but > >> that > >> aside, what about fog, flat water and lots of traffic in the approach to > >> a > >> major harbor? Will they see us (if they check their scope? > > > > This isn't specifically factual, but my best guess is "no". I used to > > work for Hughes Aircraft in their Millimeter-Wave Radar division in > > California, and the two key factors for radar in this scenario are > > target reflectivity and angle of reflection. The first has to do with > > how well the target itself bounces back the signal versus absorbing it - > > and frankly, a fiberglass boat isn't going to be perceptibly different > > from a steel one in this regard (a boat built out of foam would be hell > > to spot, though. :))) The second has to do with how much of the > > reflecting surface is directly perpendicular to the signal - and given a > > boat's curves, the answer is, again, less than encouraging. > > > > That's the advantage of a radar reflector, if any: a radar "corner" > > always bounces a signal back in the direction it came from, and radar > > reflectors are essentially just a bunch of radar corners. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15976|15900|2007-12-28 15:48:29|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself visible.They are less than minimum. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > of the Ouzo can be found at: > http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > reached by: > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > (supposedly) on station ? > Colin > | 15977|15900|2007-12-28 15:51:07|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Once you publish an idea , it becomes "Public Domain " and thus unpatentable. Does anyone know if this includes publishing it on the internet? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > No thanks, > > I've already lost several small fortunes on great ideas. Now I give them > > away for free, and save a ton of money. > > [laugh] Gary, you'll notice that I offered you the opportunity instead > of jumping on it myself. I think we went to the same school - Hard > Knocks U, that is. > > I graduated in 1975 - and '76, and '77, and '80, and... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15978|15869|2007-12-28 15:55:17|brentswain38|Re: Metal Boat Compass|Captain Barber, a local compass adjuster told me that fluxgate compasses make more work for him than they cost him. People buy them , scrap them , then hire him to do a proper adjustment with a dirigo. He said a steel boat will swing a compas at 100 feet, and putting the sensor on a pole causes all kinds of unpredictable effects. They are useless. Spare GPS units are cheaper and work better. The Europeans are putting up plenty of GPS satellites that are compatible with the ones we have, so Uncle Sam can't screw us around . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > in the yard i'm in. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Joe, > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as he is > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I installed > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I will do > > in the fullness of time. > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > the main unit > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass on a > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > done? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > | 15979|15930|2007-12-28 15:58:18|brentswain38|Re: indusrial diesels|Yes, a watercooled manifold is simple and easy to build, and not likely to give trouble. Just run the water from the engine thru it on its way to the skeg. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yes I would definantly go dry exhaust but wouldnt it be a good idea to run > water cooled exhaust manifold? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 1:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: indusrial diesels > > > > The water pump would be totaly adequate as long as you use a header > > tank. The watrer opnly has to be ciculated then, not lifted. Go dry > > exhuatrs and save t yourself a lot of trouble. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > >> Hello All > >> I have the opertunity to get a 3cyl kubota from a small tractor, > > what I was wondering is the factory water pump good enough to use > > with the skeg cooling or does it need to be converted to the sea water> > impeller type? Water cooled exhaust manifold would be simple to make > > and same with trans adapter. The engine Im lookin at is a bit over > > kill for the boat 25 bhp but its hard to beat the 0 price tag and it > > runs good and a lot smoother than a 2 cyl > >> Tom > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 15980|15900|2007-12-28 16:01:01|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Brent, would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, built for outdoor use, other spec'' details)? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself visible.They are less than minimum. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > of the Ouzo can be found at: > http://www.rya org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > reached by: > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > (supposedly) on station ? > Colin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15981|15970|2007-12-28 16:08:44|seeratlas|Re: Multi hulls|Furthermore, I would think that the type of hull that brent's method produces would be nearly ideal for a multihull, or a tri...you could use something like a 36 as the center with smaller versions for the outriggers/sponsons, whatever they are called :) Aluminum would make a lot of sense for these kinds of vessels as it can be made substantially stronger than the glass/epoxy wood alternatives, and given that the whole rig would be welded up, far more secure and water tight. Interesting concept, without the ballast that would make for a very fast and stable hull. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is absolutely no reason you couldn't use origami methods to > build a multihull, either in Aluminium or sheet fibreglass, or any > other sheet material. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "michaelandmonica2003" > wrote: > > > > has anyone used Brent's technique to build a multi hull? we are > thinking of a tri or possibly a > > cat for cruising. > > > | 15982|15900|2007-12-28 16:12:08|seeratlas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Brent, I remember you referring to that fluorescent light before. Exactly what kind was it? a 12 volt worklight? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > visible.They are less than minimum. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > reached by: > > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > (supposedly) on station ? > > Colin > > > | 15983|15869|2007-12-28 16:14:57|seeratlas|Re: Metal Boat Compass|i'll have to check into that but can report that the one on my boat worked absolutely fine for ten years of constant sailing/cruising..sooo... some of em can work :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Captain Barber, a local compass adjuster told me that fluxgate > compasses make more work for him than they cost him. People buy them > , scrap them , then hire him to do a proper adjustment with a dirigo. > He said a steel boat will swing a compas at 100 feet, and putting the > sensor on a pole causes all kinds of unpredictable effects. They are > useless. > Spare GPS units are cheaper and work better. The Europeans are > putting up plenty of GPS satellites that are compatible with the ones > we have, so Uncle Sam can't screw us around . > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Most metal boats use a flux gate compass with a remote head/sensor > > whatever its called. My boat has one, as do both the other metal boats > > in the yard i'm in. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > > wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > on Silas Crosby I bought a good Dirigo ,installed it next to the > > > pilotseat, and had Capt. George Barber come by and correct it by > > > swinging out in Comox Bay. It did not cost a whole lot ($200) as > he is > > > moving around a lot to do compass work on BC Ferries and CG > > > ships.There is probably someone like him in Alaska. With small bar > > > magnets he got my deviation down to less than 3 degrees on any > > > heading. I have a deviation table but don't need it. Since I > installed > > > the laptop nearby ( 8" away !) it needs re-correcting, which I > will do > > > in the fullness of time. > > > I also bought a $60 Ritchie compass and installed it at the aft edge > > > of the aluminum dodger, it is visible from all points in the cockpit > > > and the internal magnets were adjustable to take out nearly all the > > > deviation. When I tried to install it under the dodger just above the > > > companionway it was not correctable with my skills. > > > We travelled for a couple of years on the boat without a usable > > > compass initially. My wife pointed out that this was 'pretty weird'to > > > be cruising around without a compass, even with a couple of GPSs.We > > > have had two GPS failures in 15 years,one from the antenna and one in > > > the main unit > > > She was also very uncomfortable cruising in our boat the first year > > > after launching without a rig.Again,'seems pretty weird to be so > > > dependent on that brand new Isuzu'. A voice of caution ,for sure. > > > > > > Steve Millar ( p.s. the XtraTuf boots are excellent and I think of > > > you guys with warm dry feets) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been re-reading Bernard Moitessier's book "The Long Way". He > > > > speaks of difficulties siting and maintaing an accurate compass > on a > > > > steel boat. Could I get some feedback as to what others are/have > > > done? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > > | 15984|15930|2007-12-28 16:20:54|djackson99@aol.com|Re: indusrial diesels|Brent I have built a water cooled manifold but I did not find it to be simple so I would very much appreciate more details on how you go about building one.? Do you have a photo of a DIY manifold? Thanks Kindly Doug Jackson Tulsa, OK Yes, a watercooled manifold is simple and easy to build, and not likely to give trouble. Just run the water from the engine thru it on its way to the skeg. Brent ? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15985|15985|2007-12-28 16:22:11|seeratlas|Google Earth cruising. :)|Hey Knut, download if you don't have it already, Google Earth and fire it up. It occurs to me that a lot of those coastal photos are better than charts :) at least what you see is where those reefs etc. are. You can overlay the maps with gps coords and in fact can even plug in magellan and garmin gps units (if u upgrade to google earth plus) for real time positioning. in any event, scan around the bahamas, the caribbs, in fact I spent a couple of hours 'google sailing" around the world :) Might help a lot in determining where you want to go :) Take a look at Lord Howe Island off Austrailia :) Man, that looks like somewhere that's going on my itinerary hehehe. Anyway, you could burn this stuff to dvd's and take a lot of harbor maps/ atoll maps etc. and see just where the the inlets are and the hazards etc. Since a lot of this map plotting/charting stuff is heading towards networking into a laptop, this might end up the future. Going to cost you some amps, but if you try this out guys, see if you don't think these overheads would prove useful in trying to figure out how to get in and out of a lagoon, or what reefs to watch out for etc. Seems to me its better than a lot of these 100 year old charts... seer PS, one side effect, you do this stuff for an hour or so and it REALLY starts to motivate you to get into the water :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Brent, > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, built for > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > visible.They are less than minimum. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > http://www.rya > AIBReport.pdf> > org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/60475AB0-CB12-45B9-BDCC-1E80129524D3/0/MAIBReport.pdf > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > reached by: > > http://www.ussailin > > g.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > (supposedly) on station ? > > Colin > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15986|15900|2007-12-28 16:29:49|seeratlas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Brent, send me a description of what you are thinking about and I'll try to look it up. I'm not a patent attorney but I have tried a few cases relating to patent issues and know where to look for answers as to american law that might prove useful to you. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Once you publish an idea , it becomes "Public Domain " and thus > unpatentable. Does anyone know if this includes publishing it on the > internet? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > No thanks, > > > I've already lost several small fortunes on great ideas. Now I > give them > > > away for free, and save a ton of money. > > > > [laugh] Gary, you'll notice that I offered you the opportunity instead > > of jumping on it myself. I think we went to the same school - Hard > > Knocks U, that is. > > > > I graduated in 1975 - and '76, and '77, and '80, and... > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 15987|15987|2007-12-28 16:45:13|seeratlas|Piracy info worth looking at|I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here's an interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i wonder why heheheh). Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is looking better and better to me... seer| 15988|15987|2007-12-28 17:22:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:12PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here's an > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > wonder why heheheh). > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > looking better and better to me... One way that I used to make money while I was cruising was by selling boat-related gadgets that I was building aboard my boat - e.g., at that point, there were no automatic anchor lights on the market (heh, hard to believe nowadays), so I used to make these things out of a 12V automotive light, a CdS cell, a resistor, and a transistor - an easy $15 every time, and I sold a veritable shitload of them, especially while I was in Puerto Rico. Another one - I didn't sell too many of them, but they were a *really* nice gadget - was a dinghy "security box": a waterproof 120dB alarm inside a perforated metal box that was bolted to the dinghy stern. It had a cable - a heavy stainless sheath, really, with 4 pairs of Teflon-coated wire inside, and terminating in a loop. If the cable was cut, it would set off the alarm - and you couldn't reset it unless you could figure out which of the 16 wire ends connected to which (there was only one right way. :) Those were a bit more steep, $250 apiece. I knew I was (almost) pricing myself out of the market, but, dammit, it was an _awesome_ dinghy alarm and securing cable. I couldn't guarantee that someone wouldn't chainsaw a piece of the dock and steal the whole thing, but that was as good as it got. And still as good as it gets, as far as I know. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15989|15987|2007-12-28 18:04:57|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|> On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:12PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > looking better and better to me... [laugh] One of the reports says: BOARDER TOUCHED ELECTRIFIED LIFELINES, FELL INTO BACKSTAY & INTO WATER -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 15990|15985|2007-12-28 18:58:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|Hi Seer, I have done exactly what you say using the Nasa satellite images that google uses for a lot of its maps. I have found the satellite images far superior for charting coral heads in Fiji and Tonga where the charts are poor and have large errors. It was wonderful while sailing along the north coast of Vanua Levu. I load the satellite images on my laptop using the program OziExplorer which can read almost any kind of raster image and also link to any kind of GPS. It's a great program and has its own yahoo user group if anyone wants more details. There is also a PDA version of the program called OziCE. The maps can be found at https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/ They are quite large files but have good detail. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:22:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Google Earth cruising. :) Hey Knut, download if you don't have it already, Google Earth and fire it up. It occurs to me that a lot of those coastal photos are better than charts :) at least what you see is where those reefs etc. are. You can overlay the maps with gps coords and in fact can even plug in magellan and garmin gps units (if u upgrade to google earth plus) for real time positioning. in any event, scan around the bahamas, the caribbs, in fact I spent a couple of hours 'google sailing" around the world :) Might help a lot in determining where you want to go :) Take a look at Lord Howe Island off Austrailia :) Man, that looks like somewhere that's going on my itinerary hehehe. Anyway, you could burn this stuff to dvd's and take a lot of harbor maps/ atoll maps etc. and see just where the the inlets are and the hazards etc. Since a lot of this map plotting/charting stuff is heading towards networking into a laptop, this might end up the future. Going to cost you some amps, but if you try this out guys, see if you don't think these overheads would prove useful in trying to figure out how to get in and out of a lagoon, or what reefs to watch out for etc. Seems to me its better than a lot of these 100 year old charts... seer PS, one side effect, you do this stuff for an hour or so and it REALLY starts to motivate you to get into the water :) --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Brent, > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, built for > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > visible.They are less than minimum. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > http://www.rya > AIBReport.pdf> > org.uk/NR/rdonlyres /60475AB0- CB12-45B9- BDCC-1E80129524D 3/0/MAIBReport. pdf > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > reached by: > > http://www.ussailin > > g.org/safety/ Studies/radar_ reflector_ test.htm > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > (supposedly) on station ? > > Colin > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15991|15987|2007-12-28 19:42:35|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|-I tell you ben, I just took my own advice and read thru the whole site on all the islands covering the last couple of years, and it doesn't include about 4 physical assaults that I heard of from guys in the marina that happened just this summer (had some cruisers coming back from points south). I had no idea the boardings by swimmers, and multiple persons in boats at all hours were occuring so often and in so many places. It's clear these guys all have some damned fine bolt cutters they're carrying around so some kind of super cable is the way to go, but did you see that when they couldn't get the dinghy loose, they either stole or trashed the outboard, and knifed the dinghy... not fun. it's the machete and knife attacks that concern me. Clear that you need to secure the boat from any possible entry. Even to the point that if you're going to have open hatches, you better have some steel grates or something locked in them to prevent entry. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:12PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here's an > > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > > wonder why heheheh). > > > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > > > http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > looking better and better to me... > > One way that I used to make money while I was cruising was by selling > boat-related gadgets that I was building aboard my boat - e.g., at that > point, there were no automatic anchor lights on the market (heh, hard to > believe nowadays), so I used to make these things out of a 12V > automotive light, a CdS cell, a resistor, and a transistor - an easy $15 > every time, and I sold a veritable shitload of them, especially while I > was in Puerto Rico. > > Another one - I didn't sell too many of them, but they were a *really* > nice gadget - was a dinghy "security box": a waterproof 120dB alarm > inside a perforated metal box that was bolted to the dinghy stern. It > had a cable - a heavy stainless sheath, really, with 4 pairs of > Teflon-coated wire inside, and terminating in a loop. If the cable was > cut, it would set off the alarm - and you couldn't reset it unless you > could figure out which of the 16 wire ends connected to which (there was > only one right way. :) Those were a bit more steep, $250 apiece. I knew > I was (almost) pricing myself out of the market, but, dammit, it was an > _awesome_ dinghy alarm and securing cable. I couldn't guarantee that > someone wouldn't chainsaw a piece of the dock and steal the whole thing, > but that was as good as it got. And still as good as it gets, as far as > I know. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15992|15987|2007-12-28 19:44:26|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|heheheh, honest, i wasn't there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:12PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > > looking better and better to me... > > [laugh] One of the reports says: > > BOARDER TOUCHED ELECTRIFIED LIFELINES, FELL INTO BACKSTAY & INTO WATER > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15993|15985|2007-12-28 19:46:19|seeratlas|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|Excellent info Paul :) I will be grabbing those images :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I have done exactly what you say using the Nasa satellite images that google uses for a lot of its maps. I have found the satellite images far superior for charting coral heads in Fiji and Tonga where the charts are poor and have large errors. It was wonderful while sailing along the north coast of Vanua Levu. I load the satellite images on my laptop using the program OziExplorer which can read almost any kind of raster image and also link to any kind of GPS. It's a great program and has its own yahoo user group if anyone wants more details. There is also a PDA version of the program called OziCE. > > The maps can be found at https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/ They are quite large files but have good detail. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:22:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Google Earth cruising. :) > > Hey Knut, > download if you don't have it already, Google Earth and fire it up. > It occurs to me that a lot of those coastal photos are better than > charts :) at least what you see is where those reefs etc. are. You can > overlay the maps with gps coords and in fact can even plug in magellan > and garmin gps units (if u upgrade to google earth plus) for real time > positioning. in any event, scan around the bahamas, the caribbs, in > fact I spent a couple of hours 'google sailing" around the world :) > Might help a lot in determining where you want to go :) Take a look > at Lord Howe Island off Austrailia :) Man, that looks like somewhere > that's going on my itinerary hehehe. Anyway, you could burn this > stuff to dvd's and take a lot of harbor maps/ atoll maps etc. and see > just where the the inlets are and the hazards etc. > > Since a lot of this map plotting/charting stuff is heading towards > networking into a laptop, this might end up the future. > > Going to cost you some amps, but if you try this out guys, see if you > don't think these overheads would prove useful in trying to figure out > how to get in and out of a lagoon, or what reefs to watch out for etc. > > Seems to me its better than a lot of these 100 year old charts... > > seer > > PS, one side effect, you do this stuff for an hour or so and it REALLY > starts to motivate you to get into the water :) > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, > built for > > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > > > > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > > visible.They are less than minimum. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > > > http://www.rya > > > > AIBReport.pdf> > > > org.uk/NR/rdonlyres /60475AB0- CB12-45B9- BDCC-1E80129524D 3/0/MAIBReport. pdf > > > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > > reached by: > > > http://www.ussailin > > > > g.org/safety/ Studies/radar_ reflector_ test.htm > > > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > > (supposedly) on station ? > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 15994|15994|2007-12-28 19:48:53|Tom|AGM battries|Hello All Anyone have any experiance with the Optima AGM marine batteries, good or bad ? Looking at mounting 2 in top of keel, price not bad and no acid leaks. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15995|15987|2007-12-28 19:52:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Sail in the South Pacific and you don't have to worry about any of these things. Unwanted boardings are usually someone asking you ashore for dinner or church. :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:42:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Piracy info worth looking at -I tell you ben, I just took my own advice and read thru the whole site on all the islands covering the last couple of years, and it doesn't include about 4 physical assaults that I heard of from guys in the marina that happened just this summer (had some cruisers coming back from points south). I had no idea the boardings by swimmers, and multiple persons in boats at all hours were occuring so often and in so many places. It's clear these guys all have some damned fine bolt cutters they're carrying around so some kind of super cable is the way to go, but did you see that when they couldn't get the dinghy loose, they either stole or trashed the outboard, and knifed the dinghy... not fun. it's the machete and knife attacks that concern me. Clear that you need to secure the boat from any possible entry. Even to the point that if you're going to have open hatches, you better have some steel grates or something locked in them to prevent entry. seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:12PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here' s an > > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > > wonder why heheheh). > > > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > > > http://www.safetyan dsecuritynet. com/ > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > looking better and better to me... > > One way that I used to make money while I was cruising was by selling > boat-related gadgets that I was building aboard my boat - e.g., at that > point, there were no automatic anchor lights on the market (heh, hard to > believe nowadays), so I used to make these things out of a 12V > automotive light, a CdS cell, a resistor, and a transistor - an easy $15 > every time, and I sold a veritable shitload of them, especially while I > was in Puerto Rico. > > Another one - I didn't sell too many of them, but they were a *really* > nice gadget - was a dinghy "security box": a waterproof 120dB alarm > inside a perforated metal box that was bolted to the dinghy stern. It > had a cable - a heavy stainless sheath, really, with 4 pairs of > Teflon-coated wire inside, and terminating in a loop. If the cable was > cut, it would set off the alarm - and you couldn't reset it unless you > could figure out which of the 16 wire ends connected to which (there was > only one right way. :) Those were a bit more steep, $250 apiece. I knew > I was (almost) pricing myself out of the market, but, dammit, it was an > _awesome_ dinghy alarm and securing cable. I couldn't guarantee that > someone wouldn't chainsaw a piece of the dock and steal the whole thing, > but that was as good as it got. And still as good as it gets, as far as > I know. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 15996|15985|2007-12-28 20:11:14|Paul Wilson|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|Seer, Another way to do it that I just found out about. http://debin.net/gMapMaker/ Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:46:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Google Earth cruising. :) Excellent info Paul :) I will be grabbing those images :) seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I have done exactly what you say using the Nasa satellite images that google uses for a lot of its maps. I have found the satellite images far superior for charting coral heads in Fiji and Tonga where the charts are poor and have large errors. It was wonderful while sailing along the north coast of Vanua Levu. I load the satellite images on my laptop using the program OziExplorer which can read almost any kind of raster image and also link to any kind of GPS. It's a great program and has its own yahoo user group if anyone wants more details. There is also a PDA version of the program called OziCE. > > The maps can be found at https://zulu. ssc.nasa. gov/mrsid/ They are quite large files but have good detail. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:22:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Google Earth cruising. :) > > Hey Knut, > download if you don't have it already, Google Earth and fire it up. > It occurs to me that a lot of those coastal photos are better than > charts :) at least what you see is where those reefs etc. are. You can > overlay the maps with gps coords and in fact can even plug in magellan > and garmin gps units (if u upgrade to google earth plus) for real time > positioning. in any event, scan around the bahamas, the caribbs, in > fact I spent a couple of hours 'google sailing" around the world :) > Might help a lot in determining where you want to go :) Take a look > at Lord Howe Island off Austrailia :) Man, that looks like somewhere > that's going on my itinerary hehehe. Anyway, you could burn this > stuff to dvd's and take a lot of harbor maps/ atoll maps etc. and see > just where the the inlets are and the hazards etc. > > Since a lot of this map plotting/charting stuff is heading towards > networking into a laptop, this might end up the future. > > Going to cost you some amps, but if you try this out guys, see if you > don't think these overheads would prove useful in trying to figure out > how to get in and out of a lagoon, or what reefs to watch out for etc. > > Seems to me its better than a lot of these 100 year old charts... > > seer > > PS, one side effect, you do this stuff for an hour or so and it REALLY > starts to motivate you to get into the water :) > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, > built for > > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboat s@ yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > > > > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > > visible.They are less than minimum. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > > > http://www.rya. > > > > AIBReport.pdf> > > > org.uk/NR/rdonlyres /60475AB0- CB12-45B9- BDCC-1E80129524D 3/0/MAIBReport. pdf > > > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > > reached by: > > > http://www.ussailin > > > > g.org/safety/ Studies/radar_ reflector_ test.htm > > > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > > (supposedly) on station ? > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 15997|15997|2007-12-28 21:08:19|seeratlas|Talk about putting your fate into the hands of others...|Canadian bridge transit technique heheheheh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRC31YQqrBY ouchie. note this guy was supposed to be on his day off...| 15998|15900|2007-12-28 21:44:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel hull and radar detection|I'm earning my masters right now! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> No thanks, >> I've already lost several small fortunes on great ideas. Now I give them >> away for free, and save a ton of money. > > [laugh] Gary, you'll notice that I offered you the opportunity instead > of jumping on it myself. I think we went to the same school - Hard > Knocks U, that is. > > I graduated in 1975 - and '76, and '77, and '80, and... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 15999|15987|2007-12-28 21:51:54|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 12:42:33AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > -I tell you ben, I just took my own advice and read thru the whole > site on all the islands covering the last couple of years, and it > doesn't include about 4 physical assaults that I heard of from guys in > the marina that happened just this summer (had some cruisers coming > back from points south). I had no idea the boardings by swimmers, and > multiple persons in boats at all hours were occuring so often and in > so many places. It's clear these guys all have some damned fine bolt > cutters they're carrying around so some kind of super cable is the way > to go, but did you see that when they couldn't get the dinghy loose, > they either stole or trashed the outboard, and knifed the dinghy... > > not fun. Well... there are a couple of factors involved here, a bit more than what shows on the surface. First off, the SSB net in the Caribbean was always a way for bored wives to chat with each other - including hyper- inflated stories about How Awful Those Dark People Are - while their husbands were off doing sailorly stuff (like drinking themselves into a stupor.) Like with anything else, you really do have to determine the quality of the source - and talking to, say, a half a dozen cruisers who have actually spent time there will give you the real picture quickly. [ RANT WARNING - hit 'Delete' quick, otherwise you'll see me get on my high horse! ] In short, what you have are mostly clueless people whose only qualification for cruising is that they were able to afford the entry fee - say, $300G for a boat, etc. They sail off "into paradise" - where they suddenly discover a severe lack of McDonalds and Walmarts, which quickly becomes festering resentment and culture shock, which shortly translates into isolated coffee klatsches where they bitch about "stupid locals". That site, to my mind, is just the Web extension of the same. That's not to say that there are no knife-and-machete wielding criminals there; just like anywhere else where you have a large disparity in wealth between two groups in close proximity, you're going to have people who decide that easy pickin's is their style. This doesn't mean that everyone in the islands is a criminal; it *does* mean that you should lock your valuables in a steel safe (or better yet, a steel boat :), have solid locks that are hard to break, and small ports/lights that can't be crawled through. As to the dinghy, a flashy new outboard _is_ going to attract thieves - hell, my dinghy got stolen here in St. Augustine when my lock froze up and I was dumb enough to leave it simply tied to the dock (I caught the idiot, and he spent a nice stretch for grand theft in a Jacksonville cooler.) However, the bit about cable cutters - forget it. It's much easier for a criminal to just walk over to the dinghy next to yours - one that's not locked up - and take it. If you have an obvious alarm box (painted red, with a bright yellow warning sticker on it) on your stern and a thick steel cable running from it, he's not going to be interested. In other words, it's the same story as anywhere: keep your wits about you, act in a reasonable manner, and keep a reasonably low profile. Personally, I would feel *much* safer almost anywhere in the Caribbean (specific spots like the ghetto in Charlotte Amalie and the port of Cartagena excluded) than the average city in the US. Expecting that cruising is supposed to be an absolute paradise without a single flaw is just stupid - and yet, that's what a lot of these people bring with them. Fortunately, most of them don't make past "sticky" places like Georgetown in the Bahamas - after their refrigeration fails and they can't find a repairman, or their motor sucks up some of the fine Bahamian sand and water (included free in every fillup!) and they can't find a mechanic, they go home and bitch about Those People for the rest of their lives. Some idiots still do make it down there, though: you can see it in the expectations these people express on that site. They leave a dinghy unlocked (or leave their _wallet_ in the dinghy!) and somebody takes it - and that makes the whole island unsafe? Shitheads. They'd never leave their car unlocked in a suburban mall - they *know* that it's stupid to do that - but the exact equivalent in the islands is someone else's fault. Frankly, I'd _rather_ that those people got robbed down there. It results in fewer idiots who'll leave their boat on short scope so it can break loose and drag into mine. I've had my dinghy stolen in St. Thomas, shortly after I got there (again, my own fault - another problem with a lock... but then that dinghy was mostly rotted and needed to be replaced anyway, not much of a loss.) That's it, for seven years of cruising in that area. I've had more trouble in the States. By the same token, I'm willing to bet that Brent hasn't had much trouble of that kind in his years of cruising. It just comes down to keeping your head about you and being proactive. > it's the machete and knife attacks that concern me. Clear that you > need to secure the boat from any possible entry. Even to the point > that if you're going to have open hatches, you better have some steel > grates or something locked in them to prevent entry. You wouldn't leave your hotel room door unlocked, right? When you're in an area in which people use boats from the time they can walk, it's the same thing. Water does not separate you from land in that situation; don't be surprised when real life bears out that obvious fact. In most places other than, say, Haiti, I wouldn't expect the average boat to be atatcked while there are people aboard. It could happen - and I'd take whatever action I found _proportional_ and rational to prevent it. Same as anywhere else. Also, do remember that there are one hell of a lot of boats cruising today. Percentage-wise, I'd say that the crime stats are, again, way under the average city in the US. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16000|15987|2007-12-29 00:18:49|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|I hear what you're saying ben, but from these reports and others I've heard first hand from the world cruising group at the yard over in Green Cove, boat crime seems to be ramping up. I still think, especially on a steel boat, that it wouldn't be a big deal to hook up a hinged steel grate inside under the hatches so you could keep your ventilation at night without worrying about someone coming in through that route. heheh i could even rig THAT with some lectric juice just as a 'hello there' :) LOL. I may have to get you to run me up a schem on the screaming dinghy box thing tho, as I can't get too excited about having the damned thing stolen out in the middle of nowhere. I wonder what type of cable it takes to resist the cutters these guys are using? A new dinghy with new 10 or 16hp outboard is about 10k US a pop or better...wouldn't want to be buying many replacements, that's for sure. I've already got a steel companionway hatch fitted on the new boat and the guy who built my boat already has welded in anchoring locations for steel grates over the closed hatches for when he locked it up while traveling inland, over the anchor locker too :) Just more *stuff* to think about. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 12:42:33AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > -I tell you ben, I just took my own advice and read thru the whole > > site on all the islands covering the last couple of years, and it > > doesn't include about 4 physical assaults that I heard of from guys in > > the marina that happened just this summer (had some cruisers coming > > back from points south). I had no idea the boardings by swimmers, and > > multiple persons in boats at all hours were occuring so often and in > > so many places. It's clear these guys all have some damned fine bolt > > cutters they're carrying around so some kind of super cable is the way > > to go, but did you see that when they couldn't get the dinghy loose, > > they either stole or trashed the outboard, and knifed the dinghy... > > > > not fun. > > Well... there are a couple of factors involved here, a bit more than > what shows on the surface. First off, the SSB net in the Caribbean was > always a way for bored wives to chat with each other - including hyper- > inflated stories about How Awful Those Dark People Are - while their > husbands were off doing sailorly stuff (like drinking themselves into a > stupor.) Like with anything else, you really do have to determine the > quality of the source - and talking to, say, a half a dozen cruisers who > have actually spent time there will give you the real picture quickly. > > [ RANT WARNING - hit 'Delete' quick, otherwise you'll see me get on my > high horse! ] > > In short, what you have are mostly clueless people whose only > qualification for cruising is that they were able to afford the entry > fee - say, $300G for a boat, etc. They sail off "into paradise" - where > they suddenly discover a severe lack of McDonalds and Walmarts, which > quickly becomes festering resentment and culture shock, which shortly > translates into isolated coffee klatsches where they bitch about "stupid > locals". That site, to my mind, is just the Web extension of the same. > > That's not to say that there are no knife-and-machete wielding criminals > there; just like anywhere else where you have a large disparity in > wealth between two groups in close proximity, you're going to have > people who decide that easy pickin's is their style. This doesn't mean > that everyone in the islands is a criminal; it *does* mean that you > should lock your valuables in a steel safe (or better yet, a steel boat > :), have solid locks that are hard to break, and small ports/lights that > can't be crawled through. As to the dinghy, a flashy new outboard _is_ > going to attract thieves - hell, my dinghy got stolen here in St. > Augustine when my lock froze up and I was dumb enough to leave it simply > tied to the dock (I caught the idiot, and he spent a nice stretch for > grand theft in a Jacksonville cooler.) However, the bit about cable > cutters - forget it. It's much easier for a criminal to just walk over > to the dinghy next to yours - one that's not locked up - and take it. If > you have an obvious alarm box (painted red, with a bright yellow warning > sticker on it) on your stern and a thick steel cable running from it, > he's not going to be interested. > > In other words, it's the same story as anywhere: keep your wits about > you, act in a reasonable manner, and keep a reasonably low profile. > Personally, I would feel *much* safer almost anywhere in the Caribbean > (specific spots like the ghetto in Charlotte Amalie and the port of > Cartagena excluded) than the average city in the US. > > Expecting that cruising is supposed to be an absolute paradise without a > single flaw is just stupid - and yet, that's what a lot of these people > bring with them. Fortunately, most of them don't make past "sticky" > places like Georgetown in the Bahamas - after their refrigeration fails > and they can't find a repairman, or their motor sucks up some of the > fine Bahamian sand and water (included free in every fillup!) and they > can't find a mechanic, they go home and bitch about Those People for the > rest of their lives. Some idiots still do make it down there, though: > you can see it in the expectations these people express on that site. > They leave a dinghy unlocked (or leave their _wallet_ in the dinghy!) > and somebody takes it - and that makes the whole island unsafe? > Shitheads. They'd never leave their car unlocked in a suburban mall - > they *know* that it's stupid to do that - but the exact equivalent in > the islands is someone else's fault. > > Frankly, I'd _rather_ that those people got robbed down there. It > results in fewer idiots who'll leave their boat on short scope so it can > break loose and drag into mine. > > I've had my dinghy stolen in St. Thomas, shortly after I got there > (again, my own fault - another problem with a lock... but then that > dinghy was mostly rotted and needed to be replaced anyway, not much of a > loss.) That's it, for seven years of cruising in that area. I've had > more trouble in the States. By the same token, I'm willing to bet that > Brent hasn't had much trouble of that kind in his years of cruising. It > just comes down to keeping your head about you and being proactive. > > > it's the machete and knife attacks that concern me. Clear that you > > need to secure the boat from any possible entry. Even to the point > > that if you're going to have open hatches, you better have some steel > > grates or something locked in them to prevent entry. > > You wouldn't leave your hotel room door unlocked, right? When you're in > an area in which people use boats from the time they can walk, it's the > same thing. Water does not separate you from land in that situation; > don't be surprised when real life bears out that obvious fact. > > In most places other than, say, Haiti, I wouldn't expect the average > boat to be atatcked while there are people aboard. It could happen - and > I'd take whatever action I found _proportional_ and rational to prevent > it. Same as anywhere else. > > Also, do remember that there are one hell of a lot of boats cruising > today. Percentage-wise, I'd say that the crime stats are, again, way > under the average city in the US. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > |