16001|15994|2007-12-29 00:22:42|seeratlas|Re: AGM battries|I don't have *personal* knowledge of the things as I never bought them, but I do know people that DO have them and have favorable reports. I understand the early ones had some problems with vibration in 4x4's but that problem was fixxed years ago. You do need a specially calibrated charger for them tho, so read up on that. I'm either going to use AGM's or the new Lithium phosphate batts (these don't explode :) for my big banks. You might check the metal boat society or cruisers forum, or boatdesigners sites and get some feedback there. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Anyone have any experiance with the Optima AGM marine batteries, good or bad ? Looking at mounting 2 in top of keel, price not bad and no acid leaks. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16002|15994|2007-12-29 00:51:33|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: AGM battries|They still offgas so box and vent out . Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Anyone have any experiance with the Optima AGM marine batteries, good or bad ? Looking at mounting 2 in top of keel, price not bad and no acid leaks. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16003|15900|2007-12-29 06:42:28|sae140|[SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Brent, > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, built for > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > Knut > Hi Knut - I'm not sure what Brent uses, but I've made a couple of these - either use a 12V automotive fluoro inspection lamp straight out of the box (recommend you run some silcone sealant around the joints first), or for a more compact version: pinch the inverter from such an inspection lamp (or trailer fluoro lamp etc) and use it to drive a small energy-saver 'folded fluorescent tube' which are becoming popular replacements for tungsten light bulbs. You'll need to remove the folded tube from it's 240V/110V driver electronics of course - to just leave the plain tube with 2 pairs of wires sticking out. Couple just one pair and any one of the other pair of wires to the automotive inverter. You'll then need to make some kind of enclosure for it. A diffusor screen (hard plastic sheet rubbed over with a scouring pad) around the tube will make a bigger 'blob' of light, but reduces brightness a little. They normally pull about 0.5A at 12V. See 'em for miles ... Colin| 16005|16005|2007-12-29 11:18:46|seeratlas|Is that Ulysses?|Hey Ben, is that Ulysses on Google Earth just off from the cannons ? ehehe, hard to tell if that boat is 2 masted or not from the air view but the hull looks about right :) seer| 16006|16005|2007-12-29 13:49:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: Is that Ulysses?|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 04:18:44PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Hey Ben, > is that Ulysses on Google Earth just off from the cannons ? > > ehehe, hard to tell if that boat is 2 masted or not from the air view > but the hull looks about right :) Since GoogleMaps doesn't support the POST method (i.e., you can't give me a URL that points directly to the spot), I have no idea - but here's a Google maplet that takes you right there. Just click the 'Satellite' button, and zoom in two or three times; you'll see me waving. :) http://okopnik.com/map.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16007|15987|2007-12-29 14:03:32|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 05:18:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I hear what you're saying ben, but from these reports and others I've > heard first hand from the world cruising group at the yard over in > Green Cove, boat crime seems to be ramping up. You're a smart guy, seer; ramp up the population, increase the distance between the top and the bottom of the money pyramid - what's going to happen as a result? So, yeah, it's probably true - just like anywhere else. Frankly, I've always been amazed that more people _don't_ break into boats (but not amazed enough to underestimate the probabilities.) I think the only thing that's prevented it happening in larger numbers is the difference between what we consider valuable and what someone on land does. Where those intersect, watch out. E.g., leaving sunglasses, tools, and Nike shoes sitting out on deck is like an an 18-year-old beauty queen dancing naked on the street in Harlem or Watts while waving hundred-dollar bills, and then being shocked and outraged when something happens. > I still think, > especially on a steel boat, that it wouldn't be a big deal to hook up > a hinged steel grate inside under the hatches so you could keep your > ventilation at night without worrying about someone coming in through > that route. heheh i could even rig THAT with some lectric juice just > as a 'hello there' :) LOL. My aft cabin door is now essentially a large grate with a Lexan panel that drops in behind it. Good lighting, good ventilation when we want it, and pretty good security. > I may have to get you to run me up a schem on the screaming dinghy box > thing tho, as I can't get too excited about having the damned thing > stolen out in the middle of nowhere. I wonder what type of cable it > takes to resist the cutters these guys are using? A new dinghy with > new 10 or 16hp outboard is about 10k US a pop or better...wouldn't > want to be buying many replacements, that's for sure. For an appropriate fee, I'll be glad to sell you a copy of my idea. :) The materials plus my labor to build it worked out to about $85 back then (more now, I'm sure) - so the use of the IP itself is $165, but I'll give you a break. That's what most people miss: it's not the cost of the alarm box - it's the cost of replacing a dinghy and an outboard in the middle of nowhere. Ten grand? I'll see that ten grand and raise you the inability to do anything without finding a marina - where there often aren't any. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16008|15900|2007-12-29 14:50:19|brentswain38|[SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|I just use the automotive inspection lamp straight out of the box. I have a piece of 2 inch dia plexi tube at the top of the mast and just drop the light in and put an ABS cap on top with a spike on it ( shit disturber) to keep the birds off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, > built for > > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > Hi Knut - I'm not sure what Brent uses, but I've made a couple of > these - either use a 12V automotive fluoro inspection lamp straight > out of the box (recommend you run some silcone sealant around the > joints first), or for a more compact version: pinch the inverter from > such an inspection lamp i just use the automotive ein(or trailer fluoro lamp etc) and use it to > drive a small energy-saver 'folded fluorescent tube' which are > becoming popular replacements for tungsten light bulbs. You'll need to > remove the folded tube from it's 240V/110V driver electronics of > course - to just leave the plain tube with 2 pairs of wires sticking > out. Couple just one pair and any one of the other pair of wires to > the automotive inverter. You'll then need to make some kind of > enclosure for it. A diffusor screen (hard plastic sheet rubbed over > with a scouring pad) around the tube will make a bigger 'blob' of > light, but reduces brightness a little. They normally pull about 0.5A > at 12V. See 'em for miles ... > > Colin > | 16009|16005|2007-12-29 14:56:11|seeratlas|Re: Is that Ulysses?|Yep, you're coming up on G Earth :) LOL. Can't imagine you don't have the program, after all its free :) or are you still on a linux box? heheheh (though I would think they would have a version for linux also) :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 04:18:44PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Hey Ben, > > is that Ulysses on Google Earth just off from the cannons ? > > > > ehehe, hard to tell if that boat is 2 masted or not from the air view > > but the hull looks about right :) > > Since GoogleMaps doesn't support the POST method (i.e., you can't give > me a URL that points directly to the spot), I have no idea - but here's > a Google maplet that takes you right there. Just click the 'Satellite' > button, and zoom in two or three times; you'll see me waving. :) > > http://okopnik.com/map.html > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16010|15987|2007-12-29 14:56:22|brentswain38|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Metal hatches , even on a fibreglas boat, and a wheelhouse that lets you see out , makes all the difference. Most attacks I've heard of were on people who left the hatches open. Pull the dinghy aboard. Oh ya, Stop supporting politicoes who advocate widening the income gap worldwide and increasing the level of desperation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here's an > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > wonder why heheheh). > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > looking better and better to me... > > seer > | 16011|15900|2007-12-29 14:58:17|seeratlas|[SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Steel hull and radar detection|Sweet, thanks for the info. I can rig that easily :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just use the automotive inspection lamp straight out of the box. I > have a piece of 2 inch dia plexi tube at the top of the mast and just > drop the light in and put an ABS cap on top with a spike on it ( shit > disturber) to keep the birds off. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, > > built for > > > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > Hi Knut - I'm not sure what Brent uses, but I've made a couple of > > these - either use a 12V automotive fluoro inspection lamp straight > > out of the box (recommend you run some silcone sealant around the > > joints first), or for a more compact version: pinch the inverter from > > such an inspection lamp i just use the automotive ein(or trailer > fluoro lamp etc) and use it to > > drive a small energy-saver 'folded fluorescent tube' which are > > becoming popular replacements for tungsten light bulbs. You'll need to > > remove the folded tube from it's 240V/110V driver electronics of > > course - to just leave the plain tube with 2 pairs of wires sticking > > out. Couple just one pair and any one of the other pair of wires to > > the automotive inverter. You'll then need to make some kind of > > enclosure for it. A diffusor screen (hard plastic sheet rubbed over > > with a scouring pad) around the tube will make a bigger 'blob' of > > light, but reduces brightness a little. They normally pull about 0.5A > > at 12V. See 'em for miles ... > > > > Colin > > > | 16012|15930|2007-12-29 15:03:08|brentswain38|Re: indusrial diesels|I just weld up a dry manifold out of 1 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe, then cut a slice out of a piece of 2 inch and weld it over the outside part of the 1 1/2 inch one. Then I weld an inlet and outlet on the 2 inch and cap the ends. Tried another experiment.I just clamped a piece of silicone hose over my dry exhuast and ran it for a couple of months. Didn't affect the silicone at all . It was a couple of feet from the manifold. Silicone may be a better option than metal flex pipe ,if it is far enough away from the manifold. Supporting the exhuast pipe with a couple of 1/2 inch rods bolted thru the bell housing bolts may be a good way to get the silicone further away from the heat of the manifold. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Brent > > I have built a water cooled manifold but I did not find it to be simple so I would very much appreciate more details on how you go about building one.? Do you have a photo of a DIY manifold? > > Thanks Kindly > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, OK > > > Yes, a watercooled manifold is simple and easy to build, and not > > likely to give trouble. Just run the water from the engine thru it on > > its way to the skeg. > > Brent > > ? > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16013|16013|2007-12-29 15:06:08|seeratlas|Current thinking on Lightning|Got to ask this one more time. Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts with no metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are advising me NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby 'invite' a strike. The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little rhyme or reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based on what kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly the ones that DO get hit, fry their instruments/comms/nav's etc. every time regardless of what they had up or not. Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the "word" from someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one or more boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 years? (got two of those guys here). seer| 16014|15987|2007-12-29 15:10:34|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|I'm down with all the metal hatches and am working out a steel grate over lexan main companionway setup now. But the reports I've been reading on the dinghy theft indicates these guys are pretty serious. They're carrying bolt cutters, and pulling the dinks complete right off the davits. Ben's screamer coupled with a circuit into some big floodlights on deck might help. The other interesting development is the willingness of them to attempt the theft in broad daylight by swimming up, cutting the painter and letting the dinghy drift away, grabbing it downwind when they think no one is watching. I suppose you could paint the thing some gawdawful color that would 'stand out ' in the crowd :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Metal hatches , even on a fibreglas boat, and a wheelhouse that lets > you see out , makes all the difference. > Most attacks I've heard of were on people who left the hatches open. > Pull the dinghy aboard. > Oh ya, Stop supporting politicoes who advocate widening the income > gap worldwide and increasing the level of desperation. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here's an > > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > > wonder why heheheh). > > > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > > > http://www.safetyandsecuritynet.com/ > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > looking better and better to me... > > > > seer > > > | 16015|15987|2007-12-29 15:17:39|brentswain38|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Light your cutting torch, adjust it for a perfect flame, then brush the flame out on a piece of steel. Fill a plastic bottle with water , hold it upside down in water so the water stays in. Displace the water with the gas mix from the torch. Put the end of an extension cord with a piece of thin wire to act as a heating element ,in the end of the bottle . Seal it and hoist it up the rigging. Lead the other end below. If a pirate tries to board in the night , touch the ends of the cord on your battery. The explosion will be ear shattering, but otherwise harmless. You may have to clean some brown stuff off your decks in the morning, but a pirate will have been given some thoughts about a career change. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 05:18:44AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I hear what you're saying ben, but from these reports and others I've > > heard first hand from the world cruising group at the yard over in > > Green Cove, boat crime seems to be ramping up. > > You're a smart guy, seer; ramp up the population, increase the distance > between the top and the bottom of the money pyramid - what's going to > happen as a result? So, yeah, it's probably true - just like anywhere > else. > > Frankly, I've always been amazed that more people _don't_ break into > boats (but not amazed enough to underestimate the probabilities.) I > think the only thing that's prevented it happening in larger numbers is > the difference between what we consider valuable and what someone on > land does. Where those intersect, watch out. E.g., leaving sunglasses, > tools, and Nike shoes sitting out on deck is like an an 18-year-old > beauty queen dancing naked on the street in Harlem or Watts while waving > hundred-dollar bills, and then being shocked and outraged when something > happens. > > > I still think, > > especially on a steel boat, that it wouldn't be a big deal to hook up > > a hinged steel grate inside under the hatches so you could keep your > > ventilation at night without worrying about someone coming in through > > that route. heheh i could even rig THAT with some lectric juice just > > as a 'hello there' :) LOL. > > My aft cabin door is now essentially a large grate with a Lexan panel > that drops in behind it. Good lighting, good ventilation when we want > it, and pretty good security. > > > I may have to get you to run me up a schem on the screaming dinghy box > > thing tho, as I can't get too excited about having the damned thing > > stolen out in the middle of nowhere. I wonder what type of cable it > > takes to resist the cutters these guys are using? A new dinghy with > > new 10 or 16hp outboard is about 10k US a pop or better...wouldn't > > want to be buying many replacements, that's for sure. > > For an appropriate fee, I'll be glad to sell you a copy of my idea. :) > The materials plus my labor to build it worked out to about $85 back > then (more now, I'm sure) - so the use of the IP itself is $165, but > I'll give you a break. > > That's what most people miss: it's not the cost of the alarm box - it's > the cost of replacing a dinghy and an outboard in the middle of nowhere. > Ten grand? I'll see that ten grand and raise you the inability to do > anything without finding a marina - where there often aren't any. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16016|15994|2007-12-29 16:56:53|anacapa@eagle.ca|Re: AGM battries|Have used Optima for years Blue tops for deep discharge...red for starting. Excellent recovery after full discharge (not recommended) Won't use any other batteries. Bill > Hello All > Anyone have any experiance with the Optima AGM marine batteries, good or > bad ? Looking at mounting 2 in top of keel, price not bad and no acid > leaks. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16017|15987|2007-12-29 18:49:56|Paul Wilson|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|With all due respect, I don't get it..... There is no way I would stay in an area where you needed to do any of these security measures.....I have lived in high crime areas where there was a lot of violent crime but I was working and making money so it was worth the risk. Are you making a lot of money or cruising on your boat? If cruising, you need to go somewhere else. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:10:32 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Piracy info worth looking at I'm down with all the metal hatches and am working out a steel grate over lexan main companionway setup now. But the reports I've been reading on the dinghy theft indicates these guys are pretty serious. They're carrying bolt cutters, and pulling the dinks complete right off the davits. Ben's screamer coupled with a circuit into some big floodlights on deck might help. The other interesting development is the willingness of them to attempt the theft in broad daylight by swimming up, cutting the painter and letting the dinghy drift away, grabbing it downwind when they think no one is watching. I suppose you could paint the thing some gawdawful color that would 'stand out ' in the crowd :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Metal hatches , even on a fibreglas boat, and a wheelhouse that lets > you see out , makes all the difference. > Most attacks I've heard of were on people who left the hatches open. > Pull the dinghy aboard. > Oh ya, Stop supporting politicoes who advocate widening the income > gap worldwide and increasing the level of desperation. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I know every time we get into a discussion on problems on board, it > > rapidly devolves to those who think they can talk their way out of > > anything and those who think a good whack up the side of a head or the > > muzzle of a firearm is the best deterrent. Well.....here' s an > > interesting site that seems to cover a lot more 'incidents' than are > > generally reported in the press by the local authorities, (gee, i > > wonder why heheheh). > > > > Worth looking at if only for knowing that you better do some thinking > > on how to secure your dinghy and outboard if you have one. > > > > http://www.safetyan dsecuritynet. com/ > > > > and btw, with all these boardings in the middle of the night by > > swimmers, guys with machetes, etc., my electric lifeline 'fence' is > > looking better and better to me... > > > > seer > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16018|16013|2007-12-29 21:03:23|Paul Wilson|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|Hi Seer, The worst thing you can do is have a electron charge build up on a surface so large that the lightning is attracted to it. A lightning rod is sharp to allow the electron charge to concentrate on it's tip so the electrons bleed off in a small steady stream continually. Since the electrons bleed off in a steady stream no large charge builds up. Contrary to what most people think, the lightning rod actually helps prevent lightning strikes, not attract them. If the lightning does strike, the ground path to the rod helps prevent major damage. I work on aircraft, many of them composite and they ALL have static wicks to bleed the electrons off....if they don't, they eventually lose all radio and navigation aids due to the static charge and sometimes get struck by lightning. Pilot's can see St Elmo's fire on windshield's and radomes when the build-up of charge gets too high. Sailors can see it coming off their mast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire The static wicks usually have a carbon element to them and are replaced as the carbon is worn away. Even without a ground path, the wicks can help bleed off the static charge since the charge is on the surface of the paint and will seek a conductive path to the wick. I can't see your situation being any different. In the case of a lightning rod, the more sharp points to bleed off the charge the better. There are commercial products but I bought a brass (SS would be better) wire brush made for an electric drill and mounted in my rigging up the mast. It probably has 300 or 400 sharp points. You situation with a freestanding mast is kind of tricky. I am not sure how a carbon mast would conduct, especially with paint over it. Some paints are more conductive than others and will help bleed off the ions. Most of the polyurethane finishes like awlgrip are good for this. http://www.radome.com/Data/Element/Node/ProductLine/Product_line_edit.asp?ele_ch_id=L0000000000000001621 There is lightning diverter tape made by Dayton Granger called Strikeguard used on radomes for aircraft. It would be good to tape on your mast but I believe it is extremely expensive. Just thinking, but maybe you could use a thin strip of aluminum tape along your mast to a static dissipator at the top and have the other end grounded at the bottom somehow????? To work properly and conduct along the surface of the paint it would have to remain unpainted. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:06:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Current thinking on Lightning Got to ask this one more time. Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts with no metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are advising me NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby 'invite' a strike. The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little rhyme or reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based on what kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly the ones that DO get hit, fry their instruments/ comms/nav' s etc. every time regardless of what they had up or not. Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the "word" from someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one or more boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 years? (got two of those guys here). seer ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16019|15985|2007-12-29 21:25:37|Paul Wilson|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|Hi Colin, Zoom in to the map you want then make sure you have Select Image checked. You will also have to have your pop-ups unblocked and then click download MrSid image. The images are very large....anywhere from 15 to over 200 megabytes so you will need to download them and then have a viewing program. IF your internet conection is slow the downloads will time out. There is a free viewing program on the site but to get the images to interface with your GPS you will need to use a program like OziExplorer. Good luck, Paul Hi Paul - when I tried this link, all I could zoom into was a highly pixelated image of an area with some map reference numbers. Do I then use these numbers to download a map from somewhere ? No other info showing on my screen, but then I'm using an antique computer. While Googling I came across http://worldwind. arc.nasa. gov/ - which you might find interesting - but far too advanced for my steam-powered electronics .... Colin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16020|15987|2007-12-29 21:26:30|Alex|Re: Piracy info worth looking at - Caribbean rant, delete if bored |My take on the caribbean (non-origami,so I hope this doesn't go overboard): I think anyone going to the caribbean islands better look at the facts closely. There is very little information on the net about rising crime in that region, and tourists are going there wide-eyed and gullible. As someone who was robbed at gunpoint in the caribbean, chased by a man with a machete in the downtown area of Kingstown the week before that, I can't say that those statistics happening in such a short time leave me with a great impression of that area. While I was there, news came in from all the local island countries (St. Lucia for example) of horrific machete murders, including photos. Local media reports these things graphically, but you'll never see that information up here. Socially, impoverished and economically isolated areas of the caribbean are awash in gang violence and so- called "petty crime" (the word most used by travelers' advisories, which neglects to mention that the "petty crime" often ends in injury or death). BTW #1 being taken hostage is a great cure for constipation :p BTW #2 the same apartment unit where I stayed in had an attempted break-in but a few weeks later by a different assailant (the first one was in custody). A week after that my friend there told me a girl had her head cut off by machete by her jealous ex-boyfriend, in plain view in public. BTW #3 a month after I returned from St. Vincent, a tourist was killed in exactly the same scenario that I was in, shot point blank in the chest as he obviously reached for the gun. Glad I didn't play the hero. BTW #4 the same young man who robbed me with his brother was let out on bail after I left even though he also sexually assaulted my female friend and injured her temple with his pistol. Violent crime does not seem to net much concern down there, it's just a different attitude.. There are laws, but they punishment seems lax, and the jails are too small to fit everyone in. The assailant did not return for futher court dates and disappeared, went on a crime rampage again and killed a man. I guess he was a triggerman after all, at age 20. All these events happened in a six week period a year ago last summer, and I've heard from friends there that it's getting worse after a new 7% tax was imposed on the local populace to suck dry from them that which they already do not have, while we suck on Krispy Kreme donuts and waddle off to Walmart, bitching about the high cost of living, and how tough we have it. We all have our part in fostering what is going on down there, after first colonizing those islands with slavery, carrying on economic slavery afterwards through restrictive colonial controls, then abandoning the islands to "independence". Dole pinneaple and banana company and others made a mint down there then got out, and now those places are as backwards as can be because now attempts at bringing them into the economic sphere that we all enjoy in north america was ever made. That said, I'm totally not surprised, in retrospect, that I was nearly killed down there a year and a half ago. I was way way too naive, and I think most tourists are too. Being resident there in one spot for 5 weeks was a bad idea, too. One week in a secure enclave would be safer. I imagine sailing from bay to bay every day might be safer, but I don't know. I posted a video about my time there on Youtube and the locals living in other parts of the world slammed me hard for simply telling what happened. They don't want to believe that their country is (or has) gone to hell in a handbasket. That said, please enjoy your trip to the caribbean in your armoured, electrified, gun-turetted BS 36! It's just a sad fact about that area, and I wish it was otherwise. Imagine how great it could be if our wealth and good fortune were spread out to include the caribbean, raising standards of living, while promoting sustainable marine (eco?) tourism. There actually isn't any reason why it could not have been done, except for the lack of will and vision (on all sides -- the politicians in St. Vincent were extremely self-serving neo-colonial style pompous asses who were feathering their own nests on tax money). 1 regular container of pancake syrup in St. Vincent and the Grenadines: $8 USD. I don't think that the $600 USD that I had taken from me went very far... Alex Mr. PTSD 2007 :p| 16021|15987|2007-12-29 21:54:22|Paul Wilson|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Hi Ben, In my experience, your theory about the disparity between rich and poor being a reason for crime doesn't hold true. Every country is different. I have been in some of the poorest countries on earth, yet had none of the experiences and had to take none of the measures you speak of. The lowest crime and safest place I have ever lived was Burma and it is one of the poorest countries on earth. I have worked in Bangladesh for a short time. It has a similar economy, yet I never felt safe there. I won't give my opinion on how I feel when in the states ;). In my opinion, if crime is high in a country, poverty is not the reason. Cheers, Paul P.S. I hope this thread is still related to cruising :). ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 10:51:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Piracy info worth looking at On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 12:42:33AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > -I tell you ben, I just took my own advice and read thru the whole > site on all the islands covering the last couple of years, and it > doesn't include about 4 physical assaults that I heard of from guys in > the marina that happened just this summer (had some cruisers coming > back from points south). I had no idea the boardings by swimmers, and > multiple persons in boats at all hours were occuring so often and in > so many places. It's clear these guys all have some damned fine bolt > cutters they're carrying around so some kind of super cable is the way > to go, but did you see that when they couldn't get the dinghy loose, > they either stole or trashed the outboard, and knifed the dinghy... > > not fun. Well... there are a couple of factors involved here, a bit more than what shows on the surface. First off, the SSB net in the Caribbean was always a way for bored wives to chat with each other - including hyper- inflated stories about How Awful Those Dark People Are - while their husbands were off doing sailorly stuff (like drinking themselves into a stupor.) Like with anything else, you really do have to determine the quality of the source - and talking to, say, a half a dozen cruisers who have actually spent time there will give you the real picture quickly. [ RANT WARNING - hit 'Delete' quick, otherwise you'll see me get on my high horse! ] In short, what you have are mostly clueless people whose only qualification for cruising is that they were able to afford the entry fee - say, $300G for a boat, etc. They sail off "into paradise" - where they suddenly discover a severe lack of McDonalds and Walmarts, which quickly becomes festering resentment and culture shock, which shortly translates into isolated coffee klatsches where they bitch about "stupid locals". That site, to my mind, is just the Web extension of the same. That's not to say that there are no knife-and-machete wielding criminals there; just like anywhere else where you have a large disparity in wealth between two groups in close proximity, you're going to have people who decide that easy pickin's is their style. This doesn't mean that everyone in the islands is a criminal; it *does* mean that you should lock your valuables in a steel safe (or better yet, a steel boat :), have solid locks that are hard to break, and small ports/lights that can't be crawled through. As to the dinghy, a flashy new outboard _is_ going to attract thieves - hell, my dinghy got stolen here in St. Augustine when my lock froze up and I was dumb enough to leave it simply tied to the dock (I caught the idiot, and he spent a nice stretch for grand theft in a Jacksonville cooler.) However, the bit about cable cutters - forget it. It's much easier for a criminal to just walk over to the dinghy next to yours - one that's not locked up - and take it. If you have an obvious alarm box (painted red, with a bright yellow warning sticker on it) on your stern and a thick steel cable running from it, he's not going to be interested. In other words, it's the same story as anywhere: keep your wits about you, act in a reasonable manner, and keep a reasonably low profile. Personally, I would feel *much* safer almost anywhere in the Caribbean (specific spots like the ghetto in Charlotte Amalie and the port of Cartagena excluded) than the average city in the US. Expecting that cruising is supposed to be an absolute paradise without a single flaw is just stupid - and yet, that's what a lot of these people bring with them. Fortunately, most of them don't make past "sticky" places like Georgetown in the Bahamas - after their refrigeration fails and they can't find a repairman, or their motor sucks up some of the fine Bahamian sand and water (included free in every fillup!) and they can't find a mechanic, they go home and bitch about Those People for the rest of their lives. Some idiots still do make it down there, though: you can see it in the expectations these people express on that site. They leave a dinghy unlocked (or leave their _wallet_ in the dinghy!) and somebody takes it - and that makes the whole island unsafe? Shitheads. They'd never leave their car unlocked in a suburban mall - they *know* that it's stupid to do that - but the exact equivalent in the islands is someone else's fault. Frankly, I'd _rather_ that those people got robbed down there. It results in fewer idiots who'll leave their boat on short scope so it can break loose and drag into mine. I've had my dinghy stolen in St. Thomas, shortly after I got there (again, my own fault - another problem with a lock... but then that dinghy was mostly rotted and needed to be replaced anyway, not much of a loss.) That's it, for seven years of cruising in that area. I've had more trouble in the States. By the same token, I'm willing to bet that Brent hasn't had much trouble of that kind in his years of cruising. It just comes down to keeping your head about you and being proactive. > it's the machete and knife attacks that concern me. Clear that you > need to secure the boat from any possible entry. Even to the point > that if you're going to have open hatches, you better have some steel > grates or something locked in them to prevent entry. You wouldn't leave your hotel room door unlocked, right? When you're in an area in which people use boats from the time they can walk, it's the same thing. Water does not separate you from land in that situation; don't be surprised when real life bears out that obvious fact. In most places other than, say, Haiti, I wouldn't expect the average boat to be atatcked while there are people aboard. It could happen - and I'd take whatever action I found _proportional_ and rational to prevent it. Same as anywhere else. Also, do remember that there are one hell of a lot of boats cruising today. Percentage-wise, I'd say that the crime stats are, again, way under the average city in the US. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16022|15987|2007-12-29 23:33:04|Claude|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: When pour poeple do not know any better, they are happy with what they have. In the caribian, where the pour see the rich flashing there money, it is a diferent storry. You will therefore get more poeple resorting to crime to get some quick money. I have never bin there, so mabe I should not talk, but this is my two cent worth Claude > > Hi Ben, > > In my experience, your theory about the disparity between rich and poor being a reason for crime doesn't hold true. Every country is different. I have been in some of the poorest countries on earth, yet had none of the experiences and had to take none of the measures you speak of. The lowest crime and safest place I have ever lived was Burma and it is one of the poorest countries on earth. I have worked in Bangladesh for a short time. It has a similar economy, yet I never felt safe there. I won't give my opinion on how I feel when in the states ;). In my opinion, if crime is high in a country, poverty is not the reason. > | 16023|15987|2007-12-30 00:01:14|Alex|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|There are definitely lots of factors that work together to create violent environments, but the disparity between rich and poor certainly doesn't help. Where I was in the caribbean, the cable TV music channel pumped out Gangsta rap one video after another. The first image shown on many of these videos was a pile of money with a semi-automatic pistol on top of it. Young men with no hope of work are going to be pretty restless. Top that off with a very low regard for human life (if someone was hit by a vehicle, nobody would stop to help them because they didn't want to be on the hook for the hospital bill), well, it's not good. I travelled in Vietnam very safely, walking on soil with the bodies of some millions of people from all sides of a decade-long war that began and ended in my life time, yet never felt unsafe or threatened by anyone. The major difference between the two places does seem to be the proximity of some very well-off countries to the caribbean. It's gotta be hard to see all that wealth just beyond reach. It makes a cruiser coming in with any kind of boat (even a BS boat camouflaged as a rusty island banana boat :p) a bit of a draw for seeing what goodies lay within. There are lots of charters in the caribbean that likely never get robbed or attacked, but myself, I would exercise caution saling there. The dangers portrayed by the Canadian foreign affairs website (it has travel advisories) are not accurate to the reality of the high levels of crime in the particular region I visited. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > When pour poeple do not know any better, they are happy with what they > have. > In the caribian, where the pour see the rich flashing there money, it > is a diferent storry. You will therefore get more poeple resorting to > crime to get some quick money. > I have never bin there, so mabe I should not talk, but this is my two > cent worth > Claude > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > In my experience, your theory about the disparity between rich and > poor being a reason for crime doesn't hold true. Every country is > different. I have been in some of the poorest countries on earth, yet > had none of the experiences and had to take none of the measures you > speak of. The lowest crime and safest place I have ever lived was Burma > and it is one of the poorest countries on earth. I have worked in > Bangladesh for a short time. It has a similar economy, yet I never > felt safe there. I won't give my opinion on how I feel when in the > states ;). In my opinion, if crime is high in a country, poverty is not > the reason. > > > | 16024|15987|2007-12-30 00:28:46|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Years and years ago I was invited to a beach resort for the quetly rich in jamaica. gorgeous buildings, beach, pool, cabanas and waitresses. just out of sight alomg the perimeter i found 10 foot barbed and razor wired security fences patrolled by men with clubs and semi auto pistols and at night, with dogs. we were not allowed off the property "for your own safety". from what i understand, its been like that in most of these places since before the US was created so i'm personally not taking the rap for their problems. nor am i willing to contribute to the correction of their socio-economic problems by donating all the "stuff" on my boat to the first set of thugs that come along. there are lots of other cruising destinations that are interested in encouraging maritime visitors. seer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > There are definitely lots of factors that work together to create > violent environments, but the disparity between rich and poor > certainly doesn't help. > > Where I was in the caribbean, the cable TV music channel pumped out > Gangsta rap one video after another. The first image shown on many of > these videos was a pile of money with a semi-automatic pistol on top > of it. Young men with no hope of work are going to be pretty > restless. Top that off with a very low regard for human life (if > someone was hit by a vehicle, nobody would stop to help them because > they didn't want to be on the hook for the hospital bill), well, it's > not good. > > I travelled in Vietnam very safely, walking on soil with the bodies > of some millions of people from all sides of a decade-long war that > began and ended in my life time, yet never felt unsafe or threatened > by anyone. > > The major difference between the two places does seem to be the > proximity of some very well-off countries to the caribbean. It's > gotta be hard to see all that wealth just beyond reach. It makes a > cruiser coming in with any kind of boat (even a BS boat camouflaged > as a rusty island banana boat :p) a bit of a draw for seeing what > goodies lay within. > > There are lots of charters in the caribbean that likely never get > robbed or attacked, but myself, I would exercise caution saling > there. The dangers portrayed by the Canadian foreign affairs website > (it has travel advisories) are not accurate to the reality of the > high levels of crime in the particular region I visited. > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > When pour poeple do not know any better, they are happy with what > they > > have. > > In the caribian, where the pour see the rich flashing there money, > it > > is a diferent storry. You will therefore get more poeple resorting > to > > crime to get some quick money. > > I have never bin there, so mabe I should not talk, but this is my > two > > cent worth > > Claude > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > In my experience, your theory about the disparity between rich > and > > poor being a reason for crime doesn't hold true. Every country is > > different. I have been in some of the poorest countries on earth, > yet > > had none of the experiences and had to take none of the measures > you > > speak of. The lowest crime and safest place I have ever lived was > Burma > > and it is one of the poorest countries on earth. I have worked in > > Bangladesh for a short time. It has a similar economy, yet I never > > felt safe there. I won't give my opinion on how I feel when in the > > states ;). In my opinion, if crime is high in a country, poverty is > not > > the reason. > > > > > > | 16025|15930|2007-12-30 01:46:28|djackson99@aol.com|Re: indusrial diesels|Thanks Brent.? That is simpler.? --Doug ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16026|16013|2007-12-30 06:55:47|sae140|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > >Contrary to what most people think, the lightning rod actually helps prevent lightning strikes, not attract them. That's not my understanding. Last time I researched this (can't remember the sources now ...) it was claimed that lightning conductor spikes project a negative ionic 'leader' some 200 ft skywards when there's an ionic disparity between ground and clouds. The clouds of course become highly positively charged as a result of outer electrons from their water molecules having been stripped-off by powerful vertical up-draughts within storm clouds. The 'leader' and it's opposite number meet, at which point an ionised channel is formed, enabling the main discharge to project *upwards*. Unfortunately the term 'lightning strike' conveys the notion that something is projected down from the heavens, whereas it is the electrons from the ground that travel skywards to replace those lost within the clouds. My understanding is that the whole rationale of lightning protection on tall buildings is to actually attract the discharge and safely conduct the current to ground via a substantial copper conductor. In so doing, there is effectively a 'cone' of protection formed around such protected tall structures. No doubt others will disagree with this explanation. Such is the way of science. Colin| 16027|15987|2007-12-30 07:07:48|Gary Prebble|Re: Piracy info worth looking at - Caribbean rant, delete if bored |Other societies: A good source of up to date info for just about anywhere is on LonelyPlanet.com. Access the Thorntree Forum. There you will find info from fellow travellers actually in a given location or having just returned. In addition, Thorntree has FAQ and much informed opinion. I find it an excellent resource that has guided me in the past on a solo bike tour through Cuba and provided me with some guidance if ever I sail there. I am planning a trip to Dominican Republic Luperon next week and hope to experience what sailing the Carib would be like. Thorntree will be a resource consulted. I have been spoiled sailing the BC wild coasts for past several years but am getting antsy to experience elsewhere. When I do I am going to remember the old Canadian hockey addage...keep your head up. Regards... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > My take on the caribbean (non-origami,so I hope this doesn't go > overboard): > > I think anyone going to the caribbean islands better look at the > facts closely. There is very little information on the net about > rising crime in that region, and tourists are going there wide-eyed > and gullible. As someone who was robbed at gunpoint in the caribbean, > chased by a man with a machete in the downtown area of Kingstown the > week before that, I can't say that those statistics happening in such > a short time leave me with a great impression of that area. While I > was there, news came in from all the local island countries (St. > Lucia for example) of horrific machete murders, including photos. > Local media reports these things graphically, but you'll never see > that information up here. Socially, impoverished and economically > isolated areas of the caribbean are awash in gang violence and so- > called "petty crime" (the word most used by travelers' advisories, > which neglects to mention that the "petty crime" often ends in injury > or death). > > BTW #1 being taken hostage is a great cure for constipation :p > > BTW #2 the same apartment unit where I stayed in had an attempted > break-in but a few weeks later by a different assailant (the first > one was in custody). A week after that my friend there told me a girl > had her head cut off by machete by her jealous ex-boyfriend, in plain > view in public. > > BTW #3 a month after I returned from St. Vincent, a tourist was > killed in exactly the same scenario that I was in, shot point blank > in the chest as he obviously reached for the gun. Glad I didn't play > the hero. > > BTW #4 the same young man who robbed me with his brother was let out > on bail after I left even though he also sexually assaulted my female > friend and injured her temple with his pistol. Violent crime does not > seem to net much concern down there, it's just a different attitude.. > There are laws, but they punishment seems lax, and the jails are too > small to fit everyone in. The assailant did not return for futher > court dates and disappeared, went on a crime rampage again and killed > a man. I guess he was a triggerman after all, at age 20. > > All these events happened in a six week period a year ago last > summer, and I've heard from friends there that it's getting worse > after a new 7% tax was imposed on the local populace to suck dry from > them that which they already do not have, while we suck on Krispy > Kreme donuts and waddle off to Walmart, bitching about the high cost > of living, and how tough we have it. > > We all have our part in fostering what is going on down there, after > first colonizing those islands with slavery, carrying on economic > slavery afterwards through restrictive colonial controls, then > abandoning the islands to "independence". Dole pinneaple and banana > company and others made a mint down there then got out, and now those > places are as backwards as can be because now attempts at bringing > them into the economic sphere that we all enjoy in north america was > ever made. > > That said, I'm totally not surprised, in retrospect, that I was > nearly killed down there a year and a half ago. I was way way too > naive, and I think most tourists are too. Being resident there in one > spot for 5 weeks was a bad idea, too. One week in a secure enclave > would be safer. I imagine sailing from bay to bay every day might be > safer, but I don't know. > > I posted a video about my time there on Youtube and the locals living > in other parts of the world slammed me hard for simply telling what > happened. They don't want to believe that their country is (or has) > gone to hell in a handbasket. > > That said, please enjoy your trip to the caribbean in your armoured, > electrified, gun-turetted BS 36! > > It's just a sad fact about that area, and I wish it was otherwise. > Imagine how great it could be if our wealth and good fortune were > spread out to include the caribbean, raising standards of living, > while promoting sustainable marine (eco?) tourism. There actually > isn't any reason why it could not have been done, except for the lack > of will and vision (on all sides -- the politicians in St. Vincent > were extremely self-serving neo-colonial style pompous asses who were > feathering their own nests on tax money). > > 1 regular container of pancake syrup in St. Vincent and the > Grenadines: $8 USD. I don't think that the $600 USD that I had taken > from me went very far... > > Alex > > Mr. PTSD 2007 :p > | 16028|15987|2007-12-30 09:37:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 03:49:54PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > With all due respect, I don't get it..... > > There is no way I would stay in an area where you needed to do any of > these security measures.....I have lived in high crime areas where > there was a lot of violent crime but I was working and making money so > it was worth the risk. Are you making a lot of money or cruising on > your boat? If cruising, you need to go somewhere else. Paul, that's one of the smartest things that could be said about the whole issue; security measure #1, really. If a place doesn't smell right, don't stay there - and that's true whether you're walking through the streets of Toronto or pulling into Admiralty Bay. The flip side of that coin, though, is that listening to other people's "sea-fearing" stories is far more likely to mislead you than to help you - by keeping you out of the most interesting places. Most folks like to spice up a tale of what and where and how, with themselves being The Hero, or The Survivor Despite The Odds or whatever, so a local who comes up in a pirogue asking for a handout becomes The Dread Pirate Ungabunga who would have killed everyone on board, stolen all the cookies in the galley, and raped the pet Chihuahua. They might even believe it: it makes the whole cruise into something to remember, and who's to say that he wouldn't have? I mean, it's a *really* cute Chihuahua... The places that I've enjoyed the most in my cruising - e.g., the Dominican Republic - have been the ones about which I've heard horrendous stories and saw all kinds of US Department of State warnings, etc. What I found instead was a kind environment, good people with different food and different customs and different perspectives on life that I could learn about and explore, new experiences, a chance to learn about myself and how I change and react to different ways of living. Thinking back on it, I'd say that my concerns about crime decreased by a huge margin (again, based on my sniff test) when I left the States. Um... a little bell just rang in the back of my brain - something to qualify all of my ranting on this issue: people who rely on the police to keep them safe will not have the same perspective nor the same experience as mine. I tend to assume that people who go cruising share much of my own mindset. If you need the cop on the corner to rescue you when trouble comes, you most likely *will* have trouble anywhere outside the "first world" countries. In fact, the criminals will smell you and come running. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16029|16005|2007-12-30 09:46:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: Is that Ulysses?|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 07:56:08PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Yep, you're coming up on G Earth :) LOL. Can't imagine you don't have > the program, after all its free :) or are you still on a linux box? > heheheh (though I would think they would have a version for linux also) :) I didn't bother looking - since I have acess via the Web and can also write whatever program I need (the Google Maps API is freely available.) I generally try to avoid proprietary software, so even if they had something for Linux, I wouldn't be interested. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16030|15987|2007-12-30 09:58:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at - Caribbean rant, delete if bored |On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 02:26:28AM -0000, Alex wrote: > My take on the caribbean (non-origami,so I hope this doesn't go > overboard): > > I think anyone going to the caribbean islands better look at the > facts closely. There is very little information on the net about > rising crime in that region, and tourists are going there wide-eyed > and gullible. Alex, it really sucks that you had the experiences that you did, and I'm genuinely sorry for you. However, I'd like to point out a key difference: tourists come in via a specific route, get "piped" through specific venues, and can be found in specific places - enclaves, really. That's a scenario that's very comfortable to criminals, who also know that you have no choice but to carry money and equipment with you. There's also the fact that the tourists aren't on their home ground, and don't know the little things that would keep them safe. Sailors - sometimes referred as "shellbacks", since, like a turtle, we carry our homes with us - *are* on their home ground, aren't usually found in touristy spots, and normally don't carry our "wealth" around in our pockets. I'm _not_ trying to "shift the blame to the victim", but coming in as a tourist carries certain fixed, large risks. Coming in via a less-usual route decreases or eliminates many of those. Incidentally, St. Vincent is one of the few places that failed my sniff test. I didn't stay there, didn't even go ashore. It didn't have a lot to do with the American couple that had been falsely accused of murder there and had just been released a couple of weeks before (it got to be very smelly politically, so the government there retracted the charge and kicked them out), but it just didn't smell right. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16031|15987|2007-12-30 10:38:33|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Sat, Dec 29, 2007 at 06:54:21PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > In my experience, your theory about the disparity between rich and > poor being a reason for crime doesn't hold true. Every country is > different. I have been in some of the poorest countries on earth, yet > had none of the experiences and had to take none of the measures you > speak of. Paul, you may have missed the difference between the concepts of "general poverty" and "disparity in wealth". When a country is uniformly poor, then that basic human emotion, greed, doesn't get much scope. When your kids are starving to death and you see people casually flashing a hundred times more cash than would feed you for a year... everyone has their price, and most people would be at least tempted. > The lowest crime and safest place I have ever lived was > Burma and it is one of the poorest countries on earth. According to the CIA World Factbook, Burma "[...] is a source country for men, women, and children trafficked to East and Southeast Asia for sexual exploitation, domestic service, and forced commercial labor; a significant number of victims are economic migrants who wind up in forced or bonded labor and forced prostitution [...] the military junta's economic mismanagement, human rights abuses, and policy of using forced labor are driving factors behind Burma's large trafficking problem [...] deteriorating health and education systems, and endemic corruption." Perhaps "lowest crime" and "safest" are not exactly the right terms to describe a country in which slavery, forced prostitution, mass murders by the junta in power, and terror acts by the many rebel groups are daily occurrences. But I'm glad that your experiences there were positive - which sort of underscores my point. > I have worked > in Bangladesh for a short time. It has a similar economy, yet I never > felt safe there. I won't give my opinion on how I feel when in the > states ;). In my opinion, if crime is high in a country, poverty is > not the reason. Trying to find simple answers in which everything is either black or white is, unfortunately, a common tendency. That doesn't make it true or accurate; in fact, the result is usually the opposite. In my opinion, a large disparity between the top and the bottom of the financial pyramid is always a large contributing factor to crime. It is certainly not the only one, by far. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16032|15987|2007-12-30 10:42:22|Ben Okopnik|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 05:28:45AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Years and years ago I was invited to a beach resort for the quetly > rich in jamaica. gorgeous buildings, beach, pool, cabanas and > waitresses. just out of sight alomg the perimeter i found 10 foot > barbed and razor wired security fences patrolled by men with clubs and > semi auto pistols and at night, with dogs. we were not allowed off > the property "for your own safety". from what i understand, its been > like that in most of these places since before the US was created so > i'm personally not taking the rap for their problems. I seriously doubt that there were Jamaican resorts surrounded by barbed wire and protected by men with guns before the US was created. :) However, taking the rap for their problems is exactly the wrong thing to do: recognizing that the problems exist and dealing with them, at whatever level you're capable of doing so is the right thing. > nor am i > willing to contribute to the correction of their socio-economic > problems by donating all the "stuff" on my boat to the first set of > thugs that come along. [Applause] > there are lots of other cruising destinations > that are interested in encouraging maritime visitors. Yep. And those are the ones that get my cruising dollars. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16033|16033|2007-12-30 11:37:34|seeratlas|When I said there were 'deals' out there, WHOA :) LOL|http://www.jheld.mysite.com/ seven weeks :) jesus. well, i paid more than that, but all my steel is in excellent condition LOL. On the other hand, you guys could probably have fixxed that amount of steel plate in a day or two... seer| 16034|16013|2007-12-30 11:46:14|mkriley48|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|In my booat repair biz I have repaired several lightning struck boats. seems to be no reason to it as some delicate items survived and some robust items destroyed. backstay insulators coke-bottled and all staylocks lost their tightness aand were only hand tight. one one boat the anchor chain was all welded together. The rods on sailboats can do no more than dissapate local static electricity. I have been struck while in a forest service lookout and they have massive rods everywhere with 1/2 copper cables to ground and you still need to sit on a stool with insulators for legs during storms. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Got to ask this one more time. > Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts with no > metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are advising me > NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby 'invite' a > strike. > > The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little rhyme or > reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based on what > kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly the ones > that DO get hit, fry their instruments/comms/nav's etc. every time > regardless of what they had up or not. > > Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the "word" from > someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one or more > boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 years? (got > two of those guys here). > > seer > | 16035|16013|2007-12-30 11:58:11|seeratlas|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|Colin, I was waiting for someone to say something first :) As I understand it, FOR GROUND STRIKES..(paper didn't say squat about aircraft) the original 'pointy' end theory of dissipating accumulating charges has been disproved. Last scientific peer reviewed paper I read suggested more of a mushroom like terminal... Similarly, tho probably different for airplanes, when we're speaking about ground objects, the most recent papers I reviewed suggested what Colin has said, and went further to say that what is happening is that the two potentials, the one in the sky, and the one in the ground, are looking for the easiest way to get to each other. Some are suggesting now that the ground (meaning dirt etc.) composition has more to do with determining the jumping up point than the height of a given structure. From personal observation, my house in AR sits at the crest of what arkies call a "mountain" (colorado folks would laugh :) Anyway, the house is made of steel girders anchored into limestone bedrock, pretty good ground you would think BUT, in the 15 years or so I've been there, none of the 8 or 9 lightning strikes has hit the house. Instead, all but one hit a six foot pole supporting what used to be my big sat tv antennae. (old style, 7 or 8 foot dish), that is about 200 feet below the elevation of the house, and located in an unremarkable location down the ridge...go figure. The last strike almost got me, about 300 feet even lower, at the pasture gate, in the middle of trees that towered 80 to 90 feet higher...sooooo. One of the guys in the florida marina (lightning capital of the world I hear) who has been there since the 40's...told me that he could determine no rhyme or reason as to which of the all the boats there had been hit with one exception. One yacht that had stood on the hard for many years had been hit 3 times, even when other boats with taller masts had been all around it..the owner eventually asked to be moved and it hasn't been hit since :) As a theoretical matter, (there was a time when I knew something about physics, but having not 'used it' I seem to have nearly lost all of it :), anyway, seems to me, that if you look at the swirling clouds as if they constituted a liquid filled with charged particles, the ebb and flow of those particles as they swirled around, sometimes aggregating, sometimes dissipating, would seem to explain some of the random strikes as a swirl with some concentration of ions grew close to a particularly acutely localized charged section of the ground, a discharge might be more likely to be triggered. In any event, my dilemma continues. You would think that a lot of work would have been done on this subject by the various navies of the major nations, not to mention the various merchant marine groups. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi Seer, > > > >Contrary to what most people think, the lightning rod actually helps > prevent lightning strikes, not attract them. > > > That's not my understanding. Last time I researched this (can't > remember the sources now ...) it was claimed that lightning conductor > spikes project a negative ionic 'leader' some 200 ft skywards when > there's an ionic disparity between ground and clouds. The clouds of > course become highly positively charged as a result of outer electrons > from their water molecules having been stripped-off by powerful > vertical up-draughts within storm clouds. > > The 'leader' and it's opposite number meet, at which point an ionised > channel is formed, enabling the main discharge to project *upwards*. > Unfortunately the term 'lightning strike' conveys the notion that > something is projected down from the heavens, whereas it is the > electrons from the ground that travel skywards to replace those lost > within the clouds. > > My understanding is that the whole rationale of lightning protection > on tall buildings is to actually attract the discharge and safely > conduct the current to ground via a substantial copper conductor. In > so doing, there is effectively a 'cone' of protection formed around > such protected tall structures. > > No doubt others will disagree with this explanation. Such is the way > of science. > > Colin > | 16036|15987|2007-12-30 12:13:34|seeratlas|Re: Piracy info worth looking at|Oh, c'mon Ben LOL, you know what I'm saying, Jamaica had the equivalent of guarded castles long before 1776 LOL. On a different trip, I got out a bit, tho not alone, and spent some time amongst the farmers in the hills who were very agreeable people, tho they lived in, well shall i say sparse conditions. Same thing in guatemala and honduras. Lots of barbed wire, glass impregnated walls with guard stations etc. there too though. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 05:28:45AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Years and years ago I was invited to a beach resort for the quetly > > rich in jamaica. gorgeous buildings, beach, pool, cabanas and > > waitresses. just out of sight alomg the perimeter i found 10 foot > > barbed and razor wired security fences patrolled by men with clubs and > > semi auto pistols and at night, with dogs. we were not allowed off > > the property "for your own safety". from what i understand, its been > > like that in most of these places since before the US was created so > > i'm personally not taking the rap for their problems. > > I seriously doubt that there were Jamaican resorts surrounded by barbed > wire and protected by men with guns before the US was created. :) > However, taking the rap for their problems is exactly the wrong thing to > do: recognizing that the problems exist and dealing with them, at > whatever level you're capable of doing so is the right thing. > > > nor am i > > willing to contribute to the correction of their socio-economic > > problems by donating all the "stuff" on my boat to the first set of > > thugs that come along. > > [Applause] > > > there are lots of other cruising destinations > > that are interested in encouraging maritime visitors. > > Yep. And those are the ones that get my cruising dollars. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16037|16013|2007-12-30 12:29:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|On Sun, Dec 30, 2007 at 04:58:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > One of the guys in the florida marina (lightning capital of the world > I hear) who has been there since the 40's...told me that he could > determine no rhyme or reason as to which of the all the boats there > had been hit I did a report many years ago (the end of my high school years, actually) - on my own, really, because the subject fascinated me at the time - on natural electrical discharges, mostly focused on lightning. I studied everything that the US government had and made available about it; I read all sorts of studies; I even got to attend a weather-related conference at one point and asked questions of a number of scientists, who were sorta bewildered by this young kid sounding like he knew what he was talking about. My conclusion was pretty much what that marina guy came up with: no rhyme or reason, except some locations, things, and *people* are repeated strike targets. Nobody seems to understand why this is. I spent some time talking to a New York State park ranger about a dozen years back who told me he had been hit either 7 or 8 times (I don't recall which) - the last one was when he was lying down with trees all around him. He'd gone half-deaf, and had a ring blown off one of his fingers (hurt like hell, but the finger was OK) - but he wasn't going to change his line of work: loved it too much. I also knew a guy who was studying for a career in electronics but couldn't wear a digital watch: he demonstrated with mine, and it went wild (weird flickering display - this was back in the days of LED watches) as soon as he put it on. Maybe he'd have been a lightning magnet too... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16038|16013|2007-12-30 16:55:55|sae140|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I started asking why it was that church steeples had lightning conductors attached to 'em. I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. You'd have thought that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His (or Her?) own. Colin| 16039|16039|2007-12-30 21:35:13|seeratlas|Marine Madness|Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). jesus... good thing my welding is improving LOL seer| 16040|16039|2007-12-31 00:12:21|Aaron Williams|Re: Marine Madness|Where were you shopping in a Jewelry store? seeratlas wrote: Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). jesus... good thing my welding is improving LOL seer --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16041|16039|2007-12-31 00:23:39|Aaron Williams|Re: Marine Madness|Seer is it one of these? www.azuremarine.com/e1en/groups/manson.asp?gclid=CJ_M5-ji0ZACFQcmgwodbHHfWQ Aaron Williams wrote: Where were you shopping in a Jewelry store? seeratlas wrote: Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). jesus... good thing my welding is improving LOL seer --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16042|16039|2007-12-31 00:38:01|seeratlas|Re: Marine Madness|Yep, 80 lb supreme. this one is only 3000ish :) heheh. The Galvanized is more reasonable but still 660 plus LOL. Looks like a seriously simple design to me. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Seer is it one of these? > www.azuremarine.com/e1en/groups/manson.asp?gclid=CJ_M5-ji0ZACFQcmgwodbHHfWQ > > > > Aaron Williams wrote: > Where were you shopping in a Jewelry store? > > seeratlas wrote: Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > jesus... > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > seer > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16043|16039|2007-12-31 01:58:34|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Marine Madness|Seer, byte the bullet man, you have to do your bit to support the NZ economy :-) . If Ya insist that your lady has only the best, then you must pay for it. On a serious note, I would never anchor on a stainless anchor. the material is much to unreliable for that. I stick to galvanised. It is reliable and I can have it re-galvanized many times before I would have spent the sticker price of a stainless unit. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > jesus... > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > seer | 16044|16039|2007-12-31 02:20:14|Aaron Williams|Re: Marine Madness|A 4 X 8 sheet of 304 ss is a lot cheeper than one anchor and you could make 3 or 4 anchors and with a lot of elbow greese you could even polish them just like in the picture. I bought a sheet 3 weeks ago just for anchors. I am sure that the rocks and mud wont care if I don't use any extra elbow greese. "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: Seer, byte the bullet man, you have to do your bit to support the NZ economy :-) . If Ya insist that your lady has only the best, then you must pay for it. On a serious note, I would never anchor on a stainless anchor. the material is much to unreliable for that. I stick to galvanised. It is reliable and I can have it re-galvanized many times before I would have spent the sticker price of a stainless unit. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > jesus... > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > seer --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16045|16039|2007-12-31 18:10:59|brentswain38|Re: Marine Madness|A friend had a stainless anchor fall apart when it hit the dock in Ganges. They eat the first foot of galvanized chain with electrolysis , so don't leave your boat on one for long unless you use ss wire rope instead of chain. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > A 4 X 8 sheet of 304 ss is a lot cheeper than one anchor and you could make 3 or 4 anchors and with a lot of elbow greese you could even polish them just like in the picture. I bought a sheet 3 weeks ago just for anchors. I am sure that the rocks and mud wont care if I don't use any extra elbow greese. > > "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: Seer, byte the bullet man, you have to do your bit to support the NZ > economy :-) . If Ya insist that your lady has only the best, then you > must pay for it. > > On a serious note, I would never anchor on a stainless anchor. the > material is much to unreliable for that. I stick to galvanised. It is > reliable and I can have it re-galvanized many times before I would have > spent the sticker price of a stainless unit. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > seeratlas wrote: > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > > > jesus... > > > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > > > seer > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16046|16039|2007-12-31 18:12:53|brentswain38|Re: Marine Madness|I think my personal economy takes priority over the NZ economy. Usually the best is that built by the person with the highest personal stake . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Seer, byte the bullet man, you have to do your bit to support the NZ > economy :-) . If Ya insist that your lady has only the best, then you > must pay for it. > > On a serious note, I would never anchor on a stainless anchor. the > material is much to unreliable for that. I stick to galvanised. It is > reliable and I can have it re-galvanized many times before I would have > spent the sticker price of a stainless unit. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > seeratlas wrote: > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > > > jesus... > > > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > > > seer > | 16047|16039|2007-12-31 18:25:28|brentswain38|Re: Marine Madness|Three of us , one on the welder, one on the torch and one on the grinder , built 7- 55 lb deltas and 3- 35 lb deltas in two days, at the time , over $6,000 worth of anchors. We sold one to pay for the materials. So why would anyone with welding equipment buy an anchor from a greedy parasite. Fair is fair, but when someone decides to gouge, screw them, do it yourself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > jesus... > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > seer > | 16048|16013|2007-12-31 18:30:52|brentswain38|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the christian churches fell down , followed by the sounds of drumming to scare the evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to remind them of the difference between religion( superstition )and reality. The drummers were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If one didn't work, try the next option. Rolladecks religion? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I started asking why > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors attached to 'em. > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. You'd have thought > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His (or Her?) own. > Colin > | 16049|16013|2007-12-31 18:34:39|brentswain38|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|In a metal boat , with metal rigging ,surrounded by conductors , thru you is definitly not the shortest path to a ground. You couldn't possibly do more to protect yourself. Electronics are a different story as it takes so little to destroy them. Disconnecting everything is all you can do. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > In my booat repair biz I have repaired several lightning > struck boats. seems to be no reason to it as some delicate > items survived and some robust items destroyed. backstay > insulators coke-bottled and all staylocks lost their tightness > aand were only hand tight. one one boat the anchor chain was > all welded together. The rods on sailboats can do no more than > dissapate local static electricity. I have been struck while > in a forest service lookout and they have massive rods > everywhere with 1/2 copper cables to ground and you still > need to sit on a stool with insulators for legs during storms. > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" .> wrote: > > > > Got to ask this one more time. > > Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts > with no > > metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are > advising me > > NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby > 'invite' a > > strike. > > > > The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little > rhyme or > > reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based > on what > > kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly > the ones > > that DO get hit, fry their instruments/comms/nav's etc. > every time > > regardless of what they had up or not. > > > > Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the > "word" from > > someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one > or more > > boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 > years? (got > > two of those guys here). > > > > seer > > > | 16050|16039|2007-12-31 18:39:52|Michael Casling|Re: Marine Madness|I just purchased a Delta type anchor for the Yacht Club boat, cost about $200- This was through the mainstream supply system. A similar anchor at another company is $50-. I will buy the $50- unit for my own boat. Just saw a 36 in Degmen Bay on Saturday. I think I will park my boat in Sylva Bay. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Marine Madness Three of us , one on the welder, one on the torch and one on the grinder , built 7- 55 lb deltas and 3- 35 lb deltas in two days, at the time , over $6,000 worth of anchors. We sold one to pay for the materials. So why would anyone with welding equipment buy an anchor from a greedy parasite. Fair is fair, but when someone decides to gouge, screw them, do it yourself. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > jesus... > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > seer > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16051|16013|2007-12-31 19:46:15|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Current thinking on Lightning|Brent, as I remember my physics lectures from back then, there is something called a Faraday's cage. A metal cage enclosing a volume within which there is no electric potential regardless how many volts you put on the cage itself. I think inside of a steel hull is probably one of the safest places to be in a thunderstorm (a car is also not too bad). This does not guarantee no damage to electronics as you say, especially when connected to outside antennas. Or have I misunderstood this completely? :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Current thinking on Lightning In a metal boat , with metal rigging ,surrounded by conductors , thru you is definitly not the shortest path to a ground. You couldn't possibly do more to protect yourself. Electronics are a different story as it takes so little to destroy them. Disconnecting everything is all you can do. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > In my booat repair biz I have repaired several lightning > struck boats. seems to be no reason to it as some delicate > items survived and some robust items destroyed. backstay > insulators coke-bottled and all staylocks lost their tightness > aand were only hand tight. one one boat the anchor chain was > all welded together. The rods on sailboats can do no more than > dissapate local static electricity. I have been struck while > in a forest service lookout and they have massive rods > everywhere with 1/2 copper cables to ground and you still > need to sit on a stool with insulators for legs during storms. > mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" .> wrote: > > > > Got to ask this one more time. > > Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts > with no > > metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are > advising me > > NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby > 'invite' a > > strike. > > > > The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little > rhyme or > > reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based > on what > > kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly > the ones > > that DO get hit, fry their instruments/comms/nav's etc. > every time > > regardless of what they had up or not. > > > > Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the > "word" from > > someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one > or more > > boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 > years? (got > > two of those guys here). > > > > seer > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16052|16013|2007-12-31 21:18:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 11:34:35PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > In a metal boat , with metal rigging ,surrounded by conductors , thru > you is definitly not the shortest path to a ground. You couldn't > possibly do more to protect yourself. Electronics are a different > story as it takes so little to destroy them. Disconnecting everything > is all you can do. When I was in the Army, I spent a few months working in commo - repairing radios and such. At one point, I opened up a PRC-77 (backpack radio, familiar to everybody from movies about Vietnam); one of the things I noticed was that the power switch had a lot of leads running to it - odd, since all it normally takes is two. When I traced it out, I found that they had soldered a wire, every few inches, along both the negative and the positive busses - and the switch, when in the "off" position, shorted all those wires together. It took me a bit to get it, but I finally figured it out (it's not mentioned in the manual anywhere): that entire radio, when turned off, is completely protected against any large electro-magnetic pulse - such as a nuke explosion a couple of miles off. It's also protected against even a direct lightning strike - there's not enough of a series circuit to induce a current in. Now that's *good* design. Cost of additional parts: maybe 25 cents. Improvement in reliability: huge. Gosh, I wonder why civilian manufacturers don't do this? If I was building a new boat, I'd be haunting surplus stores for military electrical parts. Their power switches, meters, breakers, etc. are designed to standards that you can't even buy in the civilian world, and they're generally designed to be repairable instead of disposable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16053|16039|2007-12-31 21:40:14|David A. Frantz|Re: Marine Madness|I'm not sure if this is stainless or not but stainless has gotten seriously expensive in the last few months. 4x8' sheets of 10 ga are rumored to go for around $500. So 5x the galvanized price is not all that unreasonable. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > Yep, 80 lb supreme. this one is only 3000ish :) heheh. > The Galvanized is more reasonable but still 660 plus LOL. > Looks like a seriously simple design to me. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > Seer is it one of these? > > > www.azuremarine.com/e1en/groups/manson.asp?gclid=CJ_M5-ji0ZACFQcmgwodbHHfWQ > > > > > > > > Aaron Williams wrote: > > Where were you shopping in a Jewelry store? > > > > seeratlas wrote: Just priced a suitably sized Manson > spade type anchor for my > > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > > > jesus... > > > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > > > seer > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 16054|16039|2007-12-31 21:42:31|seeratlas|Re: Marine Madness|no kidding paul, jesus, I had no idea it was that much more for stainless. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Seer, byte the bullet man, you have to do your bit to support the NZ > economy :-) . If Ya insist that your lady has only the best, then you > must pay for it. > > On a serious note, I would never anchor on a stainless anchor. the > material is much to unreliable for that. I stick to galvanised. It is > reliable and I can have it re-galvanized many times before I would have > spent the sticker price of a stainless unit. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > seeratlas wrote: > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > > > jesus... > > > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > > > seer > | 16055|16039|2007-12-31 21:44:27|seeratlas|Re: Marine Madness|I'm in full agreement. Plus, this anchor design is dead simple, even simpler than the delta types. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Three of us , one on the welder, one on the torch and one on the > grinder , built 7- 55 lb deltas and 3- 35 lb deltas in two days, at > the time , over $6,000 worth of anchors. We sold one to pay for the > materials. > So why would anyone with welding equipment buy an anchor from a > greedy parasite. Fair is fair, but when someone decides to gouge, > screw them, do it yourself. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Just priced a suitably sized Manson spade type anchor for my > > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This > > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen > > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). > > > > jesus... > > > > good thing my welding is improving LOL > > > > seer > > > | 16056|16013|2007-12-31 21:48:50|seeratlas|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|Not a bad idea. I remember such a place down in Southern California tho it dealt mostly with stuff taken off aircraft. They had some really neat electric motors and way nice alloy hydraulics. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 11:34:35PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > In a metal boat , with metal rigging ,surrounded by conductors , thru > > you is definitly not the shortest path to a ground. You couldn't > > possibly do more to protect yourself. Electronics are a different > > story as it takes so little to destroy them. Disconnecting everything > > is all you can do. > > When I was in the Army, I spent a few months working in commo - > repairing radios and such. At one point, I opened up a PRC-77 (backpack > radio, familiar to everybody from movies about Vietnam); one of the > things I noticed was that the power switch had a lot of leads running to > it - odd, since all it normally takes is two. When I traced it out, I > found that they had soldered a wire, every few inches, along both the > negative and the positive busses - and the switch, when in the "off" > position, shorted all those wires together. > > It took me a bit to get it, but I finally figured it out (it's not > mentioned in the manual anywhere): that entire radio, when turned off, > is completely protected against any large electro-magnetic pulse - such > as a nuke explosion a couple of miles off. It's also protected against > even a direct lightning strike - there's not enough of a series circuit > to induce a current in. Now that's *good* design. > > Cost of additional parts: maybe 25 cents. Improvement in reliability: > huge. Gosh, I wonder why civilian manufacturers don't do > this? > > If I was building a new boat, I'd be haunting surplus stores for > military electrical parts. Their power switches, meters, breakers, etc. > are designed to standards that you can't even buy in the civilian world, > and they're generally designed to be repairable instead of disposable. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16057|16013|2008-01-01 00:28:13|Gary Prebble|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|God Delusion/Dawkins, God is Not Great/Hitchens, Breaking the Spell/Dennett, End of Faith/Harris and soon Rolladecks Religion/Brent Swain!! Can hardly wait to see the T shirt Brent. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the christian > churches fell down , followed by the sounds of drumming to scare the > evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to remind them of the > difference between religion( superstition )and reality. The drummers > were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If one didn't work, > try the next option. Rolladecks religion? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I started asking why > > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors attached to 'em. > > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. You'd have thought > > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His (or Her?) own. > > Colin > > > | 16058|15994|2008-01-01 07:57:22|Tom|Re: AGM battries|Thanks Bill Glad to here that. Two of the D34M's will fit in keel, no room for battery boxes they will be mounted directly to keel cap. Acording to the optima web site they wont leak any acid even if cracked and under normal operation no outgas. I was talking to a guy the other day that has two of them mounted on there side in his trailer and he said they work great with no leaks. I guess thats good enough for me. I was quoted $122 + tax each and I figured not to bad considering a good lead acid marine battery runs $80 to $90 now days. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] AGM battries > Have used Optima for years Blue tops for deep discharge...red for > starting. > Excellent recovery after full discharge (not recommended) > Won't use any other batteries. > Bill > > >> > > > Hello All >> Anyone have any experiance with the Optima AGM marine batteries, good or >> bad ? Looking at mounting 2 in top of keel, price not bad and no acid >> leaks. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16059|16039|2008-01-01 08:36:52|Tom|Re: Marine Madness|Last 304 grade I bought was close to $3.00 a pound and 316 grade $5.00 . It varies week to week and my supplyer told me it was on the rise again, This was in the last couple months. I was considering building tanks out of stainless but not at these prices, heck scrap yards are chargen $2.00 a pound and even that adds up in a hurry. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Frantz" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Marine Madness > I'm not sure if this is stainless or not but stainless has gotten > seriously expensive in the last few months. 4x8' sheets of 10 ga are > rumored to go for around $500. > > So 5x the galvanized price is not all that unreasonable. > > Dave > > > seeratlas wrote: >> >> Yep, 80 lb supreme. this one is only 3000ish :) heheh. >> The Galvanized is more reasonable but still 660 plus LOL. >> Looks like a seriously simple design to me. >> >> seer >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> , Aaron Williams >> wrote: >> > >> > Seer is it one of these? >> > >> www.azuremarine.com/e1en/groups/manson.asp?gclid=CJ_M5-ji0ZACFQcmgwodbHHfWQ >> > >> > >> > >> > Aaron Williams wrote: >> > Where were you shopping in a Jewelry store? >> > >> > seeratlas wrote: Just priced a suitably sized Manson >> spade type anchor for my >> > boat..ready? 3100.00 something US...duh...are these guys insane? This >> > is like one of the simplest anchor designs I've ever seen >> > (spade,rocna,manson supreme type). >> > >> > jesus... >> > >> > good thing my welding is improving LOL >> > >> > seer >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. >> Try it now. >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16060|13189|2008-01-01 11:29:38|Tom|water tanks|Hello All and happy new year Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16061|13189|2008-01-01 11:45:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: water tanks|On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 08:29:34AM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All and happy new year > Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. > I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. > Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. Tom, you might consider building a fiberglass tank. I'm not a huge fan of the stuff, usually, but there are times - like when you have to get maximum use out of an odd-shaped area - when it makes sense. I'm doing a fiberglass holding tank right now, in an area which was previously essentially wasted because it was inconvenient to get to and oddly shaped; as a result, I'm not giving up any of the useful space on Ulysses. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16062|16062|2008-01-01 12:19:30|bert andjan|Painfully off the topic again?|Guys, please don't use this forum to find fault and criticize other folk's faith and beliefs. And hopefully others won't trash around with yours. I'm sure there are atheist and agnostic websites where religion can be criticized all day long. Colin, if you're sincerely wondering why Christian churches protect their steeples with lightning rods, etc, I have some ideas on that, write me off channel. Otherwise, I'm nothing but enriched for all I'm learning here. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Bert in Michigan A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the christian churches fell down , followed by the sounds of drumming to scare the evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to remind them of the difference between religion( superstition )and reality. The drummers were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If one didn't work, try the next option. Rolladecks religion? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I started asking why > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors attached to 'em. > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. You'd have thought > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His (or Her?) own. > Colin > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 16063|16062|2008-01-01 14:00:38|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again?|Bert, I hope you don't mind me supporting your view on this off topic subject. Well expressed. We may all have opinions about a lot of things that do not belong on this forum and I can only recommend that we read our own postings at least once BEFORE hitting the send button. If that break is used to consider whether the text really belongs on the Forum, we may avoid causing unnecessary frustration that contributes zero to the Forum. STOP. Sorry that this happens to be my first posting in 2008, but rest assured, I wish everybody All the Best for 2008 and beyond! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bert andjan Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again? Guys, please don't use this forum to find fault and criticize other folk's faith and beliefs. And hopefully others won't trash around with yours. I'm sure there are atheist and agnostic websites where religion can be criticized all day long. Colin, if you're sincerely wondering why Christian churches protect their steeples with lightning rods, etc, I have some ideas on that, write me off channel. Otherwise, I'm nothing but enriched for all I'm learning here. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Bert in Michigan A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the christian churches fell down , followed by the sounds of drumming to scare the evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to remind them of the difference between religion( superstition )and reality. The drummers were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If one didn't work, try the next option. Rolladecks religion? Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I started asking why > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors attached to 'em. > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. You'd have thought > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His (or Her?) own. > Colin > __________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16064|16064|2008-01-01 14:01:00|seeratlas|Latitudes and Attitudes Cruisers mag now online :)|http://www.latsandatts.net/magazine/onlineRelease.php this has some good stuff in it. didn't realize they'd gone free online. seer| 16066|16062|2008-01-01 14:28:36|seeratlas|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again?|Hmmm, well Bert and Knut, you may have to kind of get used to Brent's blunt way of speaking:) If its any consolation, his acidity is not reserved solely for things theological. :) Within reason this is a 'sticks and stones' kind of forum, or at least that has been my experience. Besides, contrary to some 'cut your head off with a dull knife" types expressing sensitivity over 'words' and pictures regarding THEIR religion, I think most of us would side with the Danes on the free speech issue, and that applies to any and ALL religions. In the end, tho, up to Alex as its his group and his 'delete' button :) i do have to wonder, tho. Sensitivity to relatively innocuous criticism like this is not generally expected from one with a solid foundation in one's faith. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Bert, > > > > I hope you don't mind me supporting your view on this off topic subject. > Well expressed. > > > > We may all have opinions about a lot of things that do not belong on this > forum and I can only recommend that we read our own postings at least once > BEFORE hitting the send button. If that break is used to consider whether > the text really belongs on the Forum, we may avoid causing unnecessary > frustration that contributes zero to the Forum. STOP. > > > > Sorry that this happens to be my first posting in 2008, but rest assured, I > wish everybody All the Best for 2008 and beyond! > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of bert andjan > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:19 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again? > > > > Guys, please don't use this forum to find fault and > criticize other folk's faith and beliefs. And > hopefully others won't trash around with yours. I'm > sure there are atheist and agnostic websites where > religion can be criticized all day long. Colin, if > you're sincerely wondering why Christian churches > protect their steeples with lightning rods, etc, I > have some ideas on that, write me off channel. > > Otherwise, I'm nothing but enriched for all I'm > learning here. Keep up the good work. > > Thanks, Bert in Michigan > > A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the > christian > churches fell down , followed by the sounds of > drumming to scare the > evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to > remind them of the > difference between religion( superstition )and > reality. The drummers > were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If > one didn't work, > try the next option. Rolladecks religion? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I > started asking why > > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors > attached to 'em. > > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. > You'd have thought > > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His > (or Her?) own. > > Colin > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16067|13189|2008-01-01 14:47:37|mark hamill|Re: water tanks|Epoxy glass coated ply makes good water tanks. Contact West System about how long/temperature to cure them. Fibreglass tanks seem to always have a "taste". Maybe it is the same with epoxy--ie are chemicals leaching into the water?? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 08:29:34AM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Hello All and happy new year > > Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. > > I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. > > Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. > > Tom, you might consider building a fiberglass tank. I'm not a huge fan > of the stuff, usually, but there are times - like when you have to get > maximum use out of an odd-shaped area - when it makes sense. I'm doing a > fiberglass holding tank right now, in an area which was previously > essentially wasted because it was inconvenient to get to and oddly > shaped; as a result, I'm not giving up any of the useful space on > Ulysses. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16068|13189|2008-01-01 14:52:32|slade green|Re: water tanks|Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total nightmare ten years down the line. Tom wrote: Hello All and happy new year Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16069|13189|2008-01-01 14:57:20|slade green|Re: water tanks|In the epoxy dept a low filler epoxy is way better than any west system, look on the internet I think it's refered to as low solids or water tank coatings. The original builder of my boat coated the insides of my tanks with concrete. 23 years later it broke off after a pacific gale and I had to filter rusty water for 8 days. mark hamill wrote: Epoxy glass coated ply makes good water tanks. Contact West System about how long/temperature to cure them. Fibreglass tanks seem to always have a "taste". Maybe it is the same with epoxy--ie are chemicals leaching into the water?? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 08:29:34AM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Hello All and happy new year > > Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. > > I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. > > Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. > > Tom, you might consider building a fiberglass tank. I'm not a huge fan > of the stuff, usually, but there are times - like when you have to get > maximum use out of an odd-shaped area - when it makes sense. I'm doing a > fiberglass holding tank right now, in an area which was previously > essentially wasted because it was inconvenient to get to and oddly > shaped; as a result, I'm not giving up any of the useful space on > Ulysses. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16070|16062|2008-01-01 14:58:23|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again?|seer, I have personally no problem with ANY of the postings made with kicks in one or the other direction regarding religion. I know and everybody else should know that there are close to as many opinions as there are persons when you dive into such a personal subject. We all should also know that many will be sensitive to how things are expressed and if we simply stay away from the subject, there is no risk of stepping on toes. Of course, the argument can also be made that anyone being sensitive should still be tolerant enough to respect that other people may have other views (and are free to express it). They certainly are free to get upset and offended and even delete the posting or even leave the Forum for good. However, if we refrain from statements about religion we are out of the minefield and if somebody still steps out of line, at least do not fuel the fire by adding to it with further comments. I try again.....STOP Enjoy Boating! :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again? Hmmm, well Bert and Knut, you may have to kind of get used to Brent's blunt way of speaking:) If its any consolation, his acidity is not reserved solely for things theological. :) Within reason this is a 'sticks and stones' kind of forum, or at least that has been my experience. Besides, contrary to some 'cut your head off with a dull knife" types expressing sensitivity over 'words' and pictures regarding THEIR religion, I think most of us would side with the Danes on the free speech issue, and that applies to any and ALL religions. In the end, tho, up to Alex as its his group and his 'delete' button :) i do have to wonder, tho. Sensitivity to relatively innocuous criticism like this is not generally expected from one with a solid foundation in one's faith. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Knut F Garshol" wrote: > > Bert, > > > > I hope you don't mind me supporting your view on this off topic subject. > Well expressed. > > > > We may all have opinions about a lot of things that do not belong on this > forum and I can only recommend that we read our own postings at least once > BEFORE hitting the send button. If that break is used to consider whether > the text really belongs on the Forum, we may avoid causing unnecessary > frustration that contributes zero to the Forum. STOP. > > > > Sorry that this happens to be my first posting in 2008, but rest assured, I > wish everybody All the Best for 2008 and beyond! > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of bert andjan > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:19 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again? > > > > Guys, please don't use this forum to find fault and > criticize other folk's faith and beliefs. And > hopefully others won't trash around with yours. I'm > sure there are atheist and agnostic websites where > religion can be criticized all day long. Colin, if > you're sincerely wondering why Christian churches > protect their steeples with lightning rods, etc, I > have some ideas on that, write me off channel. > > Otherwise, I'm nothing but enriched for all I'm > learning here. Keep up the good work. > > Thanks, Bert in Michigan > > A friend was in Tonga when an earthquake hit. All the > christian > churches fell down , followed by the sounds of > drumming to scare the > evil spirits away. Nothing like a demomstration to > remind them of the > difference between religion( superstition )and > reality. The drummers > were all devout christians a few minutes earlier.If > one didn't work, > try the next option. Rolladecks religion? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > I guess I must have been about 10 years old when I > started asking why > > it was that church steeples had lightning conductors > attached to 'em. > > I must say it shows a remarkable lack of faith. > You'd have thought > > that The Ultimate Creator would be looking after His > (or Her?) own. > > Colin > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs> com/r/hs > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16071|16071|2008-01-01 15:03:33|cptcrunch100|Aluminum welder setup|Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. I need to make a dodger and dinghy| 16072|13189|2008-01-01 15:14:26|Aaron Williams|Re: water tanks|Tom I have to ask why not aluminum? Aaron slade green wrote: Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total nightmare ten years down the line. Tom wrote: Hello All and happy new year Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16073|13189|2008-01-01 15:16:19|Ben Okopnik|Re: water tanks|On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 07:47:35PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > Epoxy glass coated ply makes good water tanks. Contact West System > about how long/temperature to cure them. Fibreglass tanks seem to > always have a "taste". Maybe it is the same with epoxy--ie are > chemicals leaching into the water?? I've seen it go both ways - some tanks have a "taste" and some don't. Again, I'm no fiberglass guru (boats built of frozen snot just don't inspire any confidence in me...), but I strongly suspect that the problem - as it very often is - is people getting in a hurry to get their stuff cured and overcatalyzing the stuff. If you smell epoxy or polyester, they have very little smell; if you smell the catalyst (MEKP), it'll bring back every time you've ever had bad water out of a plastic tank. If I'm not mistaken, West is a food-grade epoxy - at least when used correctly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16074|16062|2008-01-01 15:22:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:52:59PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > I have personally no problem with ANY of the postings made with kicks in one > or the other direction regarding religion. I know and everybody else should > know that there are close to as many opinions as there are persons when you > dive into such a personal subject. The old USENET rule of thumb is that any thread involving guns, rape, or religion is always going to end in a flame war. I've participated in a few that didn't, but that was solely because all the participants were aware of this rule of thumb and made an explicit effort to avoid it. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16075|16062|2008-01-01 15:27:37|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|The God i believe is strong enough to take any criticise and moaning mere mortals can come up with. At least that is what she tells me. Happy new year to all, sorry if your chinese the greeting is a bit late. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16076|16062|2008-01-01 15:33:27|Paul J. Thompson|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Painfully off the topic again?|I second Seers statement. That's how this forum is. While it is predominately boats, origami and related subjects, we do occasionally wunder a little and why not? You do not have to agree to everything that is said here, it is not required but all should be free to have their say. If you do not agree or dislike it, hit the delete button. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Hmmm, well Bert and Knut, you may have to kind of get used to Brent's > blunt way of speaking:) If its any consolation, his acidity is not > reserved solely for things theological. :) Within reason this is a > 'sticks and stones' kind of forum, or at least that has been my > experience. Besides, contrary to some 'cut your head off with a dull > knife" types expressing sensitivity over 'words' and pictures > regarding THEIR religion, I think most of us would side with the Danes > on the free speech issue, and that applies to any and ALL religions. > In the end, tho, up to Alex as its > his group and his 'delete' button :) > > i do have to wonder, tho. Sensitivity to relatively innocuous > criticism like this is not generally expected from one with a solid > foundation in one's faith. > > seer | 16077|13189|2008-01-01 15:37:27|Paul J. Thompson|Re: water tanks|Aaron, I guess he is not keen on Alzhiemers in which Aluminium is very strongly implicated. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Aaron Williams wrote: > Tom > I have to ask why not aluminum? > Aaron > > slade green wrote: > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total nightmare ten years down the line. > > Tom wrote: Hello All and happy new year > Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. > I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. > Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. > Tom | 16078|13189|2008-01-01 15:43:36|Aaron Williams|Re: water tanks|I have my concerns there as well but I am of the understanding that the cause is from boiling water and cooking in such containers. At least from early aluminum manufacturing processes. Aaron "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: Aaron, I guess he is not keen on Alzhiemers in which Aluminium is very strongly implicated. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Aaron Williams wrote: > Tom > I have to ask why not aluminum? > Aaron > > slade green wrote: > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total nightmare ten years down the line. > > Tom wrote: Hello All and happy new year > Well on my 26 I originaly planned on plastic water tanks but as usual doesnt work out as planned, bigest off the shelf plastic tank that would fit is 6 gallons, not near big enough. If I build them to fit the same space I can get around 14 gallons each tank, one per side under settee's, I can live with 28 gallon capacity. Anyway with a friend of mine who is a 40 year sheet metal man we came up with a way to build them out of steel so they can be sandblasted and painted inside and out being that small. The tanks will be about 16"W x 20" L x 15"D at front and 6"D at rear. The bottom part will be 12g and broke up in a leaf brake front to back in one piece with a 1" lip facing outward at the top and sides cut to match with 1" lip facing outward. The top will just through bolt to the 1" lip all around, baffles not needed being that small and were only talken 100 pounds of water. 4 tabs welded to bottom of tank then through bolted to stringer tops. > I guess I could get some plastic tanks built to fit but I hate to think what that would cost. > Well Im off to work on the boat, getting the galley in, so far its goin good. I will try and post a couple pic's latter today. > Tom --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16079|13189|2008-01-01 16:20:28|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: water tanks|Regarding epoxy: Just be aware of the importance of ACCURATELY measuring by weight the relation between resin and hardener when splitting packages. Epoxy does not work by any sort of self-reaction where you can use more or less hardener or catalyst to go faster or slower (like polyester). Epoxy resin needs a specific quantity of hardener for the chemical reaction to complete properly. Both too little and too much will cause problems. Too much hardener will leave unreacted hardener that can cause smell and taste and reduce hardness and increase porosity. If not enough, part of the resin will have nothing to react with and will cause the epoxy to be more or less soft, with similar consequences. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Okopnik Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 3:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: water tanks On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 07:47:35PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > Epoxy glass coated ply makes good water tanks. Contact West System > about how long/temperature to cure them. Fibreglass tanks seem to > always have a "taste". Maybe it is the same with epoxy--ie are > chemicals leaching into the water?? I've seen it go both ways - some tanks have a "taste" and some don't. Again, I'm no fiberglass guru (boats built of frozen snot just don't inspire any confidence in me...), but I strongly suspect that the problem - as it very often is - is people getting in a hurry to get their stuff cured and overcatalyzing the stuff. If you smell epoxy or polyester, they have very little smell; if you smell the catalyst (MEKP), it'll bring back every time you've ever had bad water out of a plastic tank. If I'm not mistaken, West is a food-grade epoxy - at least when used correctly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16080|16064|2008-01-01 16:25:05|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Latitudes and Attitudes Cruisers mag now on|seer, thanks for the link! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 2:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Latitudes and Attitudes Cruisers mag now online :) http://www.latsanda tts.net/magazine/onlineRelease.php this has some good stuff in it. didn't realize they'd gone free online. seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16081|16071|2008-01-01 17:17:14|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum welder setup|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > Seems to me a small mig is the way to go, as you need surrounding gas to get a clean weld in aluminyummy :), or at least a very very still day to do it with special stick rods with the right flux coatings. I'll defer to the heavyweight welders we have on the site who should chime in momentarily as most of the football games are finishing up :) seer| 16082|16062|2008-01-01 17:32:10|seeratlas|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|Never had to virtually walk out of a conversation on any of those subjects yet Ben, tho I try to run with a set of dogs that aren't intimidated by mere words, or the concept that someone equally intelligent might have a different point of view. :) (yourself included big guy :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:52:59PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > > > I have personally no problem with ANY of the postings made with kicks in one > > or the other direction regarding religion. I know and everybody else should > > know that there are close to as many opinions as there are persons when you > > dive into such a personal subject. > > The old USENET rule of thumb is that any thread involving guns, rape, or > religion is always going to end in a flame war. I've participated in a > few that didn't, but that was solely because all the participants were > aware of this rule of thumb and made an explicit effort to avoid it. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16083|13189|2008-01-01 17:44:09|mark hamill|Re: water tanks|If you go to www.westsystem.com and type in "water tanks" under Search there is a PDF on construction. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 07:47:35PM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > > Epoxy glass coated ply makes good water tanks. Contact West System > > about how long/temperature to cure them. Fibreglass tanks seem to > > always have a "taste". Maybe it is the same with epoxy--ie are > > chemicals leaching into the water?? > > I've seen it go both ways - some tanks have a "taste" and some don't. > Again, I'm no fiberglass guru (boats built of frozen snot just don't > inspire any confidence in me...), but I strongly suspect that the > problem - as it very often is - is people getting in a hurry to get > their stuff cured and overcatalyzing the stuff. If you smell epoxy or > polyester, they have very little smell; if you smell the catalyst > (MEKP), it'll bring back every time you've ever had bad water out of a > plastic tank. > > If I'm not mistaken, West is a food-grade epoxy - at least when used > correctly. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16084|16062|2008-01-01 17:44:41|seeratlas|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|Heheheh, see? At least imho, now Mike's comment is worth the possible flames Brent might have fanned:) funny stuff :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, BrdbMc@... wrote: > > The God i believe is strong enough to take any criticise and moaning mere > mortals can come up with. > At least that is what she tells me. > > Happy new year to all, sorry if your chinese the greeting is a bit late. > > Mikeafloat > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16085|16085|2008-01-01 17:49:11|seeratlas|Auto Tailights as running reds?|Since the new car tailights appear to be all 12 volt diodes, and the housings made out of pretty stout non corrosive plastic, presumably weather sealed, has anyone tried hitting the junkyard and using some as running lights? I REALLY want any vessel close to me, to see that running red :) seer| 16086|16086|2008-01-01 18:05:10|seeratlas|I'd like to meet this sailor. Sounds like a Brent kind of guy.|Here's the entirety of this captain's account of his recent voyage as just posted on the Cruisers Forum site... "I thought I'd just come on here and give a brief account of my recent trip from Pubnico, Nova Scotia to Comox, British Columbia on a 58' Delta-built fishboat, the Ashley Erin. Some folks on this site were kind enough to give me some information regarding US Homeland security regulations, sewage regulations, and depths in the intracoastal waterway, If anybody wants anymore information about specifics of my trip I'd be pleased to respond. I left Pubnico Oct. 16 and entered the US at the Sandwich Marina in the Cape Cod canal. The official I dealt with was very courteous and efficient. I took fuel there as well, $2.95/gal. I stopped in Newport RI, New Haven Conn., Milford Conn., then the 79th St boat basin in New York. I went down the Jersey shore, up Delaware bay, through the canal and out the Chesapeake, then directly to Palm Beach. I took fuel there, $3.25/gal, and waited a few days for Noel to go by. Then east, out and around Eluthra and down through the Windward passage to the San Blas Islands. I used a canal agent named Enrique Plummer who was efficient and on time. He charged me $500 to book a transit, set me up with moorage on the Pacific side, and clear the boat out of Panama. The canal fees were about $1000. I went direct to Puerto Vallarta intending to take fuel there but was warned off by locals who said the Pemex there sold the second grade which might give injector trouble. On the strength of this advice, I carried on and took fuel in Cabo San Lucas; $2.61/gal. Entered the US again in San Diego and once again had no trouble. From San Diego, I sailed to Victoria, BC, where I entered Canada on Dec. 16. I ran about 41 days for the roughly 7K mile trip- doing about 8 knots, give or take. The worst weather was just outside Victoria, a few miles from home. Regards, Dave Boyes" Takes a pretty special kind of captain to find nothing else worth remarking about on a voyage like that :) Makes me wonder what his past experience has been!!! jeez seer| 16087|13189|2008-01-01 18:10:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: water tanks|Hi Tom, Our water tanks are integral mild steel the same as the rest of the boat and have a bolt on lid to enable blasting and painting. We are thinking of welding in a grey water collection and holding tank just forward of the engine bilge. It will be blasted and painted with Zinga and then probably painted with bitumen. We are buying a standard polyethylene tank for the diesel day tank as it is opaque and we will be able to see the level. A Happy New Year to all, Ted| 16088|16013|2008-01-01 18:43:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: Current thinking on Lightning|Seer, On Sunday 21st October 1638 there was a lightning strike during the service at St Pancras Church Widecombe in the Moor Devon UK. One of the pinnacles on the church tower was hit and crashed through the roof fatally injuring several of the worshippers. This was, as any local will tell you due to one of the worshippers selling his soul to the Devil who was seen in a public house in the next village just previously on his way to collect his due. Another cause according to the Puritan Oliver Cromwell, the leader of the Parliamentarians during the English Civil War was that it was God's wrath at the popish practices of the time. It may be a good idea before setting off in ones boat to reflect if anybody on board, including oneself has sold their soul to the Devil or indeed been given to popish practices. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Got to ask this one more time. > Since the new boat has free standing fibreglass/carbon masts with no > metal rigging...*most* of the experienced boat guys are advising me > NOT to put a lightning rod setup on the masts and thereby 'invite' a > strike. > > The *general* concensus I'm hearing is that there is little rhyme or > reason as to which boats out of a pack get hit or not based on what > kind of lightning protection they have, and that uniformly the ones > that DO get hit, fry their instruments/comms/nav's etc. every time > regardless of what they had up or not. > > Anyone got some up to date research on this, or gotten the "word" from > someone who's sat around and watched lightning pick out one or more > boats out of hundreds at dock/or harbor over some 30 or 40 years? (got > two of those guys here). > > seer > | 16089|13189|2008-01-01 18:58:52|Ian and Jean Campbell|Re: water tanks|Diaminodiphenyl sulfone (DDS), a curing agent in some epoxy resin systems, is carcinogenic in laboratory animals. Certain glycidyl ethers used in epoxy products cause genetic mutations in laboratory animals. This suggests that they may be cancer-causing agents. It is not known if glycidyl ethers cause mutations or cancer in humans. Most other components of epoxy resin systems have not been adequately tested to determine if they can cause cancer. Source : Hazard Evaluation System and Information Service ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16090|13189|2008-01-01 19:09:09|kingsknight4life|[origami boats] Re: Aluminum, Steel or Fiberglass Boats Pricing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > "The central attraction of this board is I suspect, not the actual construction of a boat, but the construction and indulgence of a dream. :) A dream that for at least a while, we can escape the life that has been built for us, and pursue a more primal course. To experience nature, to revel in the scents on the breeze, to marvel at the beauty providence has provided for the human eyes, the heightening of senses, the challenges, the dangers to overcome, the rewards of self confidence, self respect, and ultimately, an inner sense of contentment with who and what you are. To get 'out there' is to nurture and refresh the soul, clear the mind, and strengthen the body. The natives had all that, they lived it, every day. And then, they lost their freedom, they had nothing, but pandemic disease, servitude, humiliation and the obliteration of their entire way of living. Like other wild animals, some have chosen to end their lives." seer VERY well put. I hate to dive into the politics here as I agree with lots of what's being said and also none of it entirely. I think Greg makes a valid point about "people being people" (not races) and so do others about the native americans getting a raw deal. Unfortunately I think the problems AND the solutions are going to be more complex than what's being discussed here. I do agree with hand ups not handouts. I also know from firsthand experience that natives are getting screwed over on the reserves but not always by beaurocrats or the gov't. They also get screwed over royally by their own kind and where I lived the Chief was the ONLY one eating. Period. As Brent would say, "he was doing his best Catholic priest imitation and screwing the whole tribe." Was a real eye opener for me. Anyway I'm not much for politics, so I'll end my so called "rant". Seer sometime when my boats hopefully our wakes will cross and I can hear more of your stories. rowland| 16091|13189|2008-01-01 19:19:29|Tom|Re: water tanks|----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Okopnik" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] water tanks Ben Ive never drank water out of a fiberglass tank not sure about the taste? Ive done a lot of glassing over the years but for me it would be easyer to build from steel. Tom > Tom, you might consider building a fiberglass tank. I'm not a huge fan > of the stuff, usually, but there are times - like when you have to get > maximum use out of an odd-shaped area - when it makes sense. I'm doing a > fiberglass holding tank right now, in an area which was previously > essentially wasted because it was inconvenient to get to and oddly > shaped; as a result, I'm not giving up any of the useful space on > Ulysses. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16092|13189|2008-01-01 19:19:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: water tanks|Like in all things in life it is the dose that kills you. Water if you drink to much will kill you. The best advice I have heard is to paint the inside of glassed water tanks with a food grade epoxy paint. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > > Diaminodiphenyl sulfone (DDS), a curing agent in some epoxy resin systems, is carcinogenic in laboratory animals. Certain glycidyl ethers used in epoxy products cause genetic mutations in laboratory animals. This suggests that they may be cancer-causing agents. It is not known if glycidyl ethers cause mutations or cancer in humans. Most other components of epoxy resin systems have not been adequately tested to determine if they can cause cancer. > > Source : Hazard Evaluation System and Information Service > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16093|16085|2008-01-01 19:21:00|kingsknight4life|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Since the new car tailights appear to be all 12 volt diodes, and the > housings made out of pretty stout non corrosive plastic, presumably > weather sealed, has anyone tried hitting the junkyard and using some > as running lights? I REALLY want any vessel close to me, to see that > running red :) > > > seer > Funny I was wondering the same thing lately, espeially after seeing all the LED tailinghts on big trucks. Rowland| 16094|13189|2008-01-01 19:45:13|seeratlas|Re: water tanks|would that be 'translucent' instead? :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > Our water tanks are integral mild steel the same as the rest of the > boat and have a bolt on lid to enable blasting and painting. We are > thinking of welding in a grey water collection and holding tank just > forward of the engine bilge. It will be blasted and painted with Zinga > and then probably painted with bitumen. > > We are buying a standard polyethylene tank for the diesel day tank as > it is opaque and we will be able to see the level. > > A Happy New Year to all, > > Ted > | 16095|13189|2008-01-01 19:57:24|Tom|Re: water tanks|I hadnt thought about using aluminum I guess that would be one option, would be a bit tricky keeping it isolated from the steel, some say its safe and some say it aint. Stainless would be a good option if it didnt cost my left n** . one thing about stainless is you would have a problem of passivating the welds on the inside or it will rust. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] water tanks > Tom > I have to ask why not aluminum? > Aaron > > slade green wrote: > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with > baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of > this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And > the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total > nightmare ten years down the line. | 16096|16062|2008-01-01 19:57:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:32:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Never had to virtually walk out of a conversation on any of those > subjects yet Ben, tho I try to run with a set of dogs that aren't > intimidated by mere words, or the concept that someone equally > intelligent might have a different point of view. :) (yourself > included big guy :) [smile] And ditto in all of that, seer - but there are times when continuing to talk to somebody amounts to beating the outline on the asphalt of where a dead horse used to be. Sooner or later, the greatest majority of those arguments wind up being a flame-fest, with people calling each other Nazis, etc. Godwin's Law exists for a very good reason. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16097|16062|2008-01-01 20:12:37|seeratlas|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|Hmmm, maybe you're right. I'm often accused of baiting Canadians, so lets put it to the test...:) "After the North American Beer Festival, all the brewery presidents decided to go out for a beer. The guy from Corona sits down and says, "Hey Senor, I would like the world's best beer, a Corona." The bartender dusts off a bottle from the shelf and gives it to him. The guy from Budweiser says, "I'd like the best beer in the world, give me 'The King Of Beers', a Budweiser." The bartender gives him one. The guy from Coors says, "I'd like the only beer made with Rocky Mountain spring water, give me a Coors." He gets it. The guy from Molson sits down and says, "Give me a Coke." he ordered. The other brewery presidents look over at him and ask, "Why aren't you drinking a Molson's?" The Molson president replies, "Well, I figured if you guys aren't drinking beer, neither would I." ============================================================ heheheheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:32:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Never had to virtually walk out of a conversation on any of those > > subjects yet Ben, tho I try to run with a set of dogs that aren't > > intimidated by mere words, or the concept that someone equally > > intelligent might have a different point of view. :) (yourself > > included big guy :) > > [smile] And ditto in all of that, seer - but there are times when > continuing to talk to somebody amounts to beating the outline on the > asphalt of where a dead horse used to be. Sooner or later, the greatest > majority of those arguments wind up being a flame-fest, with people > calling each other Nazis, etc. Godwin's Law exists for a very good > reason. :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16098|13189|2008-01-01 20:17:08|Aaron Williams|Re: water tanks|If you were to use SS you would ether use the paste with I have no experence with or use the an argon purge on the inside. Tom wrote: I hadnt thought about using aluminum I guess that would be one option, would be a bit tricky keeping it isolated from the steel, some say its safe and some say it aint. Stainless would be a good option if it didnt cost my left n** . one thing about stainless is you would have a problem of passivating the welds on the inside or it will rust. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] water tanks > Tom > I have to ask why not aluminum? > Aaron > > slade green wrote: > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with > baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of > this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And > the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total > nightmare ten years down the line. --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16099|16062|2008-01-01 20:23:48|seeratlas|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|Ok, last one :) and yes, way too much fun today, I'm back in arkansas, can't work on the boat and its colder than hell :) My last peace offering for the cannucks.. :) Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for six days. Eventually, Michael the archangel found him, resting on the seventh day. He inquired of God, "Where have you been?" God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds, "Look Michael, look what I've made." Archangel Michael looked puzzled and said, "What is it?" "It's a planet," replied God, "and I've put LIFE on it. I'm going to call it Earth and it's going to be a great place of balance." "Balance?" inquired Michael, still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of Earth, "For example, Northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth while Southern Europe is going to be poor. Over there I've placed a continent of white people and over there is a continent of black people." God continued, pointing to different countries. "This one will be extremely hot and arid while this one will be very cold and covered in ice." The Archangel, impressed by Gods work, then pointed to a large land mass in the top corner and asked, "What's that one?" "Ah," said God. "That's Canada, the most glorious place on Earth. There are beautiful mountains, lakes, rivers, streams and an exquisite coastline. The people from Canada are going to be modest, intelligent and humorous and they're going to be found traveling the world. They'll be extremely sociable, hard working and high-achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats and carriers of peace. I'm also going to give them superhuman, undefeatable ice hockey players who will be admired and feared by all who come across them." Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then proclaimed, "What about balance, God? You said there would be BALANCE!" God replied wisely, "Wait until you see the loud-mouth bastards I'm putting next to them." :) go thou and do likewise :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Hmmm, maybe you're right. I'm often accused of baiting Canadians, so > lets put it to the test...:) > > "After the North American Beer Festival, all the brewery presidents > decided to go out for a beer. > > The guy from Corona sits down and says, "Hey Senor, I would like the > world's best beer, a Corona." The bartender dusts off a bottle from > the shelf and gives it to him. > > The guy from Budweiser says, "I'd like the best beer in the world, > give me 'The King Of Beers', a Budweiser." The bartender gives him one. > > The guy from Coors says, "I'd like the only beer made with Rocky > Mountain spring water, give me a Coors." He gets it. > > The guy from Molson sits down and says, "Give me a Coke." he ordered. > The other brewery presidents look over at him and ask, "Why aren't you > drinking a Molson's?" > > The Molson president replies, "Well, I figured if you guys aren't > drinking beer, neither would I." > > ============================================================ > heheheheh > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:32:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > Never had to virtually walk out of a conversation on any of those > > > subjects yet Ben, tho I try to run with a set of dogs that aren't > > > intimidated by mere words, or the concept that someone equally > > > intelligent might have a different point of view. :) (yourself > > > included big guy :) > > > > [smile] And ditto in all of that, seer - but there are times when > > continuing to talk to somebody amounts to beating the outline on the > > asphalt of where a dead horse used to be. Sooner or later, the greatest > > majority of those arguments wind up being a flame-fest, with people > > calling each other Nazis, etc. Godwin's Law exists for a very good > > reason. :) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 16100|16100|2008-01-01 20:28:59|seeratlas|OK, best alternative to the 'can't stop posting' syndrome :)|http://n.ethz.ch/student/mkos/pinguin.swf click the screen to drop the penguin, click it again so the polar bear will whack him, go for distance :) LOL. addicting as hell, specially since its cold :) seer| 16101|16071|2008-01-01 21:51:17|David A. Frantz|Re: Aluminum welder setup|Well I'm far away from being a heavy weight welder, wouldn't even make light weight, but have info. Lincoln has apparently adapted their small 175 amp mig so that it can better handle aluminum. Check out their web site. I'm not sure you can call it affordable as you are likely talking $800 plus the cost of a spool gun. further after that investment you will be able to handle at best 1/8" aluminum. Probably the low cost approach would be a Tig machine. In this case you are talking real slow boat building, but it will look nice when you are done. I suspect to be really happy whit Mig, in aluminum, you would have to be willing to invest in a more advanced machine. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "cptcrunch100" > wrote: > > > > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > > > > Seems to me a small mig is the way to go, as you need surrounding gas > to get a clean weld in aluminyummy :), or at least a very very still > day to do it with special stick rods with the right flux coatings. > I'll defer to the heavyweight welders we have on the site who should > chime in momentarily as most of the football games are finishing up :) > > seer > > | 16102|16102|2008-01-01 22:00:49|Tom|BS 26 pictures|Hello all Whoa took a while going through all the post today. Uploaded a few pictures of the interior. love that new skill saw blade I picked up at lowes , kinda burns its way through. Grandaughter was helping and we made a couple cuts in the boat, blue smoke and are eyes were burnin. I still have to do the settee's seat backs and there is room for four to set there and no they dont double as a birth. V births about 6'6" long and under the back half is for sail storage. Galley top is 49" long and little over 30" wide, small sink, single gimbling burner and a built in ice box forward of that. still have room for 6'6" quarter births and a bit of a nav station more like a drop down table atached to the back of WC. Still havnt figured what I want for a table between the setee's, probably end up using a push in post style and keep it stored on the WC bulkhead. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16103|16103|2008-01-01 22:04:06|seeratlas|Recommendation desired on a two speed self tailing winch..|Anyone got a rec on a size 52 or better two speed self tailer that isn't a kitchen soup of mixed metals? I had Barient's on my last boat and had no troubles, but wondered if there's any current concensus on bang for buck (as if that was possible in a marine context :) LOL. seer| 16104|16071|2008-01-01 22:11:14|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Aluminum welder setup|I only have experience on the box I currently use, but my setup works fine so long as the material is 1/8" to 3/16". I have a Hobart 210 that was $600 used.? You can run aluminum wire in the 10 foot whip if you are careful not to bend it too much, but I use a $400 Spoolmate 185, spool gun that gives me a lot more room to move around.? I think that is still the cheapest spool gun you can find. I have photos and good advice from professionals on my web page: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/welding.html Best of Luck -- Doug J, Tulsa OK -----Original Message----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum welder setup Well I'm far away from being a heavy weight welder, wouldn't even make light weight, but have info. Lincoln has apparently adapted their small 175 amp mig so that it can better handle aluminum. Check out their web site. I'm not sure you can call it affordable as you are likely talking $800 plus the cost of a spool gun. further after that investment you will be able to handle at best 1/8" aluminum. Probably the low cost approach would be a Tig machine. In this case you are talking real slow boat building, but it will look nice when you are done. I suspect to be really happy whit Mig, in aluminum, you would have to be willing to invest in a more advanced machine. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "cptcrunch100" > wrote: > > > > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > > > > Seems to me a small mig is the way to go, as you need surrounding gas > to get a clean weld in aluminyummy :), or at least a very very still > day to do it with special stick rods with the right flux coatings. > I'll defer to the heavyweight welders we have on the site who should > chime in momentarily as most of the football games are finishing up :) > > seer > > ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16105|16071|2008-01-01 22:35:59|Tom|Re: Aluminum welder setup|Depends on what you consider affordable a good smaller setup your lookin around $2500+ . A miller 210 mig and spool gun + argon bottle. the 250 mig would be better but it would be over $3000 this is for new stuff. They do make some smaller spool guns that run a couple hundred and hook up to the small migs like the 175 or 180 but youre pretty limited with them 1/8 to 3/16" is pushin it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "cptcrunch100" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum welder setup > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16106|16103|2008-01-01 23:55:52|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Recommendation desired on a two speed self tailing winch..|Anderson http://www.andersenwinches.com -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Anyone got a rec on a size 52 or better two speed self tailer that > isn't a kitchen soup of mixed metals? > > I had Barient's on my last boat and had no troubles, but wondered if > there's any current concensus on bang for buck (as if that was > possible in a marine context :) LOL. > > seer | 16107|16085|2008-01-02 00:01:32|David A. Frantz|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|Why the junk yard? Go there and you get an oddly mounted lamp assembly that has an unknown number of hours on it. If you look around a little bit you should be able to find boat trailer lamp assemblies that are sealed right up. These are the rugged diode type. I've also seen diode red trailer lamps at Harbor Freight if you are up shopping there. Here are some ideas for you: http://vehiclelight.com/ledstli.html http://www.allspectrum.com/ [you have to dig a bit here.] http://www.ignitelighting.com/led_index.html [wide voltage range products here] http://www.anythingtruck.com/commercial/lights/led/index.html?referrer=AdG&gclid=CNLort3L1pACFRuhFQodBTLrXA http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/lighting/?gclid=CPGn5u_M1pACFReQGgodnmdsVw http://ledtrailerlights.com/ http://www.dialight.com/, Interestingly large SEVEN inch school bus lamps: http://www.dialight.com/pdfs/subs/School.pdf http://www.weldoninc.com/, More big lamps and stuff, commercial so probably expensive but really neat stuff. In any event depending on what you buy the lamp assemblies are often cheaper than what you would find a junk yard. There is a lot of stuff out there, I think the big trick for boating is to find the stuff that is sealed up. If you look at a items specified for boating though the prices are extremely high, some of the offerings above could be replaced annually and still be cheaper than one purpose built boating light. AS for junk yards and Automobile lamp assemblies some of those are extremely expensive especially considering what you get. It is not like most of those lamp assemblies will be easy to mount. The other issue is that many of the lamp assemblies above are specified as bing sealed, some specifically for boat trailers. That should not be taken as a sign that they will hold up extremely well in a marine environment, but like was mentioned above the price is right. As a side note the Weldon 7 inch lamps look really slick. I hate to see what the price on them. More so it would be nice if they came in green. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > Since the new car tailights appear to be all 12 volt diodes, and the > housings made out of pretty stout non corrosive plastic, presumably > weather sealed, has anyone tried hitting the junkyard and using some > as running lights? I REALLY want any vessel close to me, to see that > running red :) > > seer > > | 16109|13189|2008-01-02 04:09:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: water tanks|Thanks Seer, Yes indeed, translucent. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > would that be 'translucent' instead? :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > Our water tanks are integral mild steel the same as the rest of the > > boat and have a bolt on lid to enable blasting and painting. We are > > thinking of welding in a grey water collection and holding tank just > > forward of the engine bilge. It will be blasted and painted with Zinga > > and then probably painted with bitumen. > > > > We are buying a standard polyethylene tank for the diesel day tank as > > it is opaque and we will be able to see the level. > > > > A Happy New Year to all, > > > > Ted > > > | 16110|16100|2008-01-02 08:39:42|audeojude|Re: OK, best alternative to the 'can't stop posting' syndrome :)|dude your evil!!! what a waste of time!! best distance 327 feet..... wheeeeeeeee scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://n.ethz.ch/student/mkos/pinguin.swf > > click the screen to drop the penguin, click it again so the polar bear > will whack him, go for distance :) LOL. > > addicting as hell, specially since its cold :) > > seer > | 16111|16111|2008-01-02 09:26:36|audeojude|large steel boat project on ebay|http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70FT-BruceRoberts-Steel-Sailboat-Hull-SF-Bay-CA-NoRes_W0QQitemZ200188700248QQihZ010QQcategoryZ63731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem| 16112|15970|2008-01-02 09:29:30|Denis Buggy|Re: Multi hulls|dear Seer I have done quite a lot of research into building a steel trimaran and the results are not encouraging , I have also contacted personally a few of the well known naval architects whose sites are well known world wide and many of their replies are caustic and some say their reputation would be in shreds if they even attempted a design and it became known , I did manage to purchase study plans from Bruce Roberts for a 65 ft steel trimaran he lives in Kinsale Ireland and I spoke to him personally and he was very helpful . I would not recommend the Boden study plans at all . the only known by me professionally built and designed steel tri for cruising is for sale and can be found by google DUTCH STEEL TRIMARAN . it is a Hellerman and its yard and designer are sadly no more , however his work is in the Rolls Royce category and commands very high values 40 years on . I have researched other designs and found even with today's finest software and professional designers they have major design problems , many concern pitchpoling which is the trimarans curse of three slim hulls no ballast no spilled drinks no seasickness high speed all is bliss until one of the outer bows passes beneath a wave , bliss ends . some plastic tris factory built have" THE LATEST WAVE PIERCING TECHNOLOGY ADDED ON AFTER SEA TRIALS " meaning the technology which made the original was no good and the cure is suspect at best for keeping the bows above wave enter by adding large bulbs below the waterline . one new design has a extremely practical large and high -deep rear door which gives equal access - escape which ever way the hull finds itself normal or inverted a good but worrying design feature the hellerman has all its masts on the centre hull and the outer hulls are well set back to enable the large centre hull to do its job and lift the entire boat when meeting a wave . as much structural stress between hulls exists in a constantly varying stress conditions a great deal of steel and clever design is required to do this properly . many of the worlds navies have conducted very expensive research as the principle of the design is so compelling and beats all other designs . see MV TRITON . british navy research vessel , and the AUSTAL co in Australia who build the worlds fastest ferries . I do not know how the design advantage of origami hull design I.e. a strong egg shell can be availed of by trying to join 3 eggs together. but I am sure somebody knows happy new year to all . Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi hulls Furthermore, I would think that the type of hull that brent's method produces would be nearly ideal for a multihull, or a tri...you could use something like a 36 as the center with smaller versions for the outriggers/sponsons, whatever they are called :) Aluminum would make a lot of sense for these kinds of vessels as it can be made substantially stronger than the glass/epoxy wood alternatives, and given that the whole rig would be welded up, far more secure and water tight. Interesting concept, without the ballast that would make for a very fast and stable hull. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > There is absolutely no reason you couldn't use origami methods to > build a multihull, either in Aluminium or sheet fibreglass, or any > other sheet material. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "michaelandmonica2003" > wrote: > > > > has anyone used Brent's technique to build a multi hull? we are > thinking of a tri or possibly a > > cat for cruising. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16113|16113|2008-01-02 10:28:34|bert andjan|Re: Painfully off subject again?|Thought I'd add my 2 cents in, making it 4 cents now, seeing as I brought up the subject of what is acceptable subject matter on this site. I'm learning. There are the stated rules and the contributor's rules. And that's fine. I, too, enjoy an occasional digression from long explanations of why 6010 rods better than 6011 rods for this or that application. I have considerable respect and interest in theology as well as metal boats, and other pursuits as well. I'd love to give a balanced response for the reality of God and value of religion when others bring up the subject and might disagree (and Brent and Colin and others I respect your views as well, I do). I'm sure I can take the heat when others disagree! Be grrreat to have at it! I think we could do it without digressing into a personal flame war. But, I don't believe this is the place for it because to me the subject of theology deserves more time and effort and thought and attention than I think we are prepared to give it here. Hence my "pain" in the subject heading "Painfully off the subject again?" Happy New Year, may all our welds be clean and pure as the wind driven Michigan snow... BTW notice what Michigan did to Florida State yesterday? Now that's another worthy off subject subject.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ| 16114|16085|2008-01-02 14:33:57|brentswain38|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|You'd have to make suret your light boards stop any crossover of the colours.Otherwise I see no problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Since the new car tailights appear to be all 12 volt diodes, and the > housings made out of pretty stout non corrosive plastic, presumably > weather sealed, has anyone tried hitting the junkyard and using some > as running lights? I REALLY want any vessel close to me, to see that > running red :) > > > seer > | 16115|16086|2008-01-02 14:37:24|brentswain38|Re: I'd like to meet this sailor. Sounds like a Brent kind of guy.|Marine fuel in Mexico can be doubtful. Many cruisers there simply gather a bunch of cruisers to share the cab fare ( van) and pack their jerry cans to the nearest gas station to get fuel from a source with a higher turnover rate. No problems that way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Here's the entirety of this captain's account of his recent voyage as > just posted on the Cruisers Forum site... > > "I thought I'd just come on here and give a brief account of my recent > trip from Pubnico, Nova Scotia to Comox, British Columbia on a 58' > Delta-built fishboat, the Ashley Erin. Some folks on this site were > kind enough to give me some information regarding US Homeland security > regulations, sewage regulations, and depths in the intracoastal > waterway, If anybody wants anymore information about specifics of my > trip I'd be pleased to respond. > I left Pubnico Oct. 16 and entered the US at the Sandwich Marina in > the Cape Cod canal. The official I dealt with was very courteous and > efficient. I took fuel there as well, $2.95/gal. I stopped in Newport > RI, New Haven Conn., Milford Conn., then the 79th St boat basin in New > York. I went down the Jersey shore, up Delaware bay, through the canal > and out the Chesapeake, then directly to Palm Beach. I took fuel > there, $3.25/gal, and waited a few days for Noel to go by. Then east, > out and around Eluthra and down through the Windward passage to the > San Blas Islands. I used a canal agent named Enrique Plummer who was > efficient and on time. He charged me $500 to book a transit, set me up > with moorage on the Pacific side, and clear the boat out of Panama. > The canal fees were about $1000. I went direct to Puerto Vallarta > intending to take fuel there but was warned off by locals who said the > Pemex there sold the second grade which might give injector trouble. > On the strength of this advice, I carried on and took fuel in Cabo San > Lucas; $2.61/gal. Entered the US again in San Diego and once again had > no trouble. From San Diego, I sailed to Victoria, BC, where I entered > Canada on Dec. 16. I ran about 41 days for the roughly 7K mile trip- > doing about 8 knots, give or take. The worst weather was just outside > Victoria, a few miles from home. Regards, Dave Boyes" > > Takes a pretty special kind of captain to find nothing else worth > remarking about on a voyage like that :) Makes me wonder what his past > experience has been!!! jeez > > seer > | 16116|13189|2008-01-02 14:39:16|brentswain38|Re: water tanks|A poly fuel tank below decks dumps a huge quantitiy of fuel on any fire you may get. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > Our water tanks are integral mild steel the same as the rest of the > boat and have a bolt on lid to enable blasting and painting. We are > thinking of welding in a grey water collection and holding tank just > forward of the engine bilge. It will be blasted and painted with Zinga > and then probably painted with bitumen. > > We are buying a standard polyethylene tank for the diesel day tank as > it is opaque and we will be able to see the level. > > A Happy New Year to all, > > Ted > | 16117|13189|2008-01-02 14:40:55|brentswain38|Re: water tanks|Make sure any epoxy you put in water tanks is food grade and make sure you see it in writing.Some are great, some are toxic. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ian and Jean Campbell wrote: > > Diaminodiphenyl sulfone (DDS), a curing agent in some epoxy resin systems, is carcinogenic in laboratory animals. Certain glycidyl ethers used in epoxy products cause genetic mutations in laboratory animals. This suggests that they may be cancer-causing agents. It is not known if glycidyl ethers cause mutations or cancer in humans. Most other components of epoxy resin systems have not been adequately tested to determine if they can cause cancer. > > Source : Hazard Evaluation System and Information Service > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16118|13189|2008-01-02 14:45:20|brentswain38|Re: water tanks|Given the connection made between aluminium and brain problems later in life, I'd never trust it for water tanks. An aluminium boatbuilder said it eventually makes water milky from the oxides. I wouldn't trust epoxy to stay on it indefinitly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > I hadnt thought about using aluminum I guess that would be one option, > would be a bit tricky keeping it isolated from the steel, some say its safe > and some say it aint. Stainless would be a good option if it didnt cost my > left n** . one thing about stainless is you would have a problem of > passivating the welds on the inside or it will rust. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Williams" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] water tanks > > > > Tom > > I have to ask why not aluminum? > > Aaron > > > > slade green wrote: > > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) with > > baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping ontop of > > this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle yards. And > > the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total > > nightmare ten years down the line. > | 16119|16062|2008-01-02 14:50:14|brentswain38|Re: Painfully off the topic again?|Studies have found that Canadian beer causes cancer. US beer doesn't, because before bottling all US beer is strained thru a special type of organic filtre , called a horse. I remember seeing a cartoon of a moose drinking from a vat labeled "Labats" while pissing into a vat labeled "Molsons". Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Hmmm, maybe you're right. I'm often accused of baiting Canadians, so > lets put it to the test...:) > > "After the North American Beer Festival, all the brewery presidents > decided to go out for a beer. > > The guy from Corona sits down and says, "Hey Senor, I would like the > world's best beer, a Corona." The bartender dusts off a bottle from > the shelf and gives it to him. > > The guy from Budweiser says, "I'd like the best beer in the world, > give me 'The King Of Beers', a Budweiser." The bartender gives him one. > > The guy from Coors says, "I'd like the only beer made with Rocky > Mountain spring water, give me a Coors." He gets it. > > The guy from Molson sits down and says, "Give me a Coke." he ordered. > The other brewery presidents look over at him and ask, "Why aren't you > drinking a Molson's?" > > The Molson president replies, "Well, I figured if you guys aren't > drinking beer, neither would I." > > ============================================================ > heheheheh > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:32:09PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > Never had to virtually walk out of a conversation on any of those > > > subjects yet Ben, tho I try to run with a set of dogs that aren't > > > intimidated by mere words, or the concept that someone equally > > > intelligent might have a different point of view. :) (yourself > > > included big guy :) > > > > [smile] And ditto in all of that, seer - but there are times when > > continuing to talk to somebody amounts to beating the outline on the > > asphalt of where a dead horse used to be. Sooner or later, the greatest > > majority of those arguments wind up being a flame-fest, with people > > calling each other Nazis, etc. Godwin's Law exists for a very good > > reason. :) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#Corollaries_and_usage > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 16120|16102|2008-01-02 14:54:15|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 pictures|The skillsaw that Princess auto sells for metal cutting is a worm gear saw, which suggests that the trick to metal cutting saws is slow and high torque. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello all > Whoa took a while going through all the post today. > Uploaded a few pictures of the interior. love that new skill saw blade I picked up at lowes , kinda burns its way through. Grandaughter was helping and we made a couple cuts in the boat, blue smoke and are eyes were burnin. > I still have to do the settee's seat backs and there is room for four to set there and no they dont double as a birth. V births about 6'6" long and under the back half is for sail storage. Galley top is 49" long and little over 30" wide, small sink, single gimbling burner and a built in ice box forward of that. still have room for 6'6" quarter births and a bit of a nav station more like a drop down table atached to the back of WC. Still havnt figured what I want for a table between the setee's, probably end up using a push in post style and keep it stored on the WC bulkhead. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16121|16100|2008-01-02 15:00:22|seeratlas|Re: OK, best alternative to the 'can't stop posting' syndrome :)|DAMMMM 327? whoa...i've got to work harder lol, 214 is it for me :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > dude your evil!!! > what a waste of time!! > best distance 327 feet..... > wheeeeeeeee > > scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > http://n.ethz.ch/student/mkos/pinguin.swf > > > > click the screen to drop the penguin, click it again so the polar bear > > will whack him, go for distance :) LOL. > > > > addicting as hell, specially since its cold :) > > > > seer > > > | 16122|15970|2008-01-02 15:03:33|seeratlas|Re: Multi hulls|I was thinking about alloy for a tri or a cat. That material makes more sense than steel when being light is one of the main design criteria. The origami technique could be used to make a very nicely shaped hull I would think, as some of the most trendy cats out there currently (like the Gunboats for instance) have very slab sided hulls..a shape pretty easy to better using origami. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > > dear Seer > I have done quite a lot of research into building a steel trimaran and the results are not encouraging , I have also contacted personally a few of the well known naval architects whose sites are well known world wide > and many of their replies are caustic and some say their reputation would be in shreds if they even attempted a design and it became known , > I did manage to purchase study plans from Bruce Roberts for a 65 ft steel trimaran he lives in Kinsale Ireland and I spoke to him personally and he was very helpful . > I would not recommend the Boden study plans at all . > the only known by me professionally built and designed steel tri for cruising is for sale and can be found by google DUTCH STEEL TRIMARAN . > it is a Hellerman and its yard and designer are sadly no more , however his work is in the Rolls Royce category and commands very high values 40 years on . > I have researched other designs and found even with today's finest software and professional designers they have major design problems , > many concern pitchpoling which is the trimarans curse of three slim hulls no ballast no spilled drinks no seasickness high speed all is bliss until one of the outer bows passes beneath a wave , bliss ends . > some plastic tris factory built have" THE LATEST WAVE PIERCING TECHNOLOGY ADDED ON AFTER SEA TRIALS " meaning the technology which made the original was no good and the cure is suspect at best for keeping the bows above wave enter by adding large bulbs below the waterline . > one new design has a extremely practical large and high -deep rear door which gives equal access - escape which ever way the hull finds itself normal or inverted a good but worrying design feature > > the hellerman has all its masts on the centre hull and the outer hulls are well set back to enable the large centre hull to do its job and lift the entire boat when meeting a wave . as much structural stress between hulls exists in a constantly varying stress conditions a great deal of steel and clever design is required to do this properly . > many of the worlds navies have conducted very expensive research as the principle of the design is so compelling and beats all other designs . see MV TRITON . british navy research vessel , and the AUSTAL co in Australia who build the worlds fastest ferries . > I do not know how the design advantage of origami hull design I.e. a strong egg shell can be availed of by trying to join 3 eggs together. > but I am sure somebody knows > happy new year to all . Denis > ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Multi hulls > > > Furthermore, I would think that the type of hull that brent's method > produces would be nearly ideal for a multihull, or a tri...you could > use something like a 36 as the center with smaller versions for the > outriggers/sponsons, whatever they are called :) Aluminum would make > a lot of sense for these kinds of vessels as it can be made > substantially stronger than the glass/epoxy wood alternatives, and > given that the whole rig would be welded up, far more secure and water > tight. Interesting concept, without the ballast that would make for a > very fast and stable hull. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > There is absolutely no reason you couldn't use origami methods to > > build a multihull, either in Aluminium or sheet fibreglass, or any > > other sheet material. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "michaelandmonica2003" > > wrote: > > > > > > has anyone used Brent's technique to build a multi hull? we are > > thinking of a tri or possibly a > > > cat for cruising. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16123|15985|2008-01-02 15:23:11|jim_both|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|I've been using Google earth to make topo charts that can be read by Coastal Explorer by geo-referencing them with Long/Lat coordinates. If you cruise in US waters; check out: http://earthnc.com/ Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I have done exactly what you say using the Nasa satellite images that google uses for a lot of its maps. I have found the satellite images far superior for charting coral heads in Fiji and Tonga where the charts are poor and have large errors. It was wonderful while sailing along the north coast of Vanua Levu. I load the satellite images on my laptop using the program OziExplorer which can read almost any kind of raster image and also link to any kind of GPS. It's a great program and has its own yahoo user group if anyone wants more details. There is also a PDA version of the program called OziCE. > > The maps can be found at https://zulu.ssc.nasa.gov/mrsid/ They are quite large files but have good detail. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:22:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Google Earth cruising. :) > > Hey Knut, > download if you don't have it already, Google Earth and fire it up. > It occurs to me that a lot of those coastal photos are better than > charts :) at least what you see is where those reefs etc. are. You can > overlay the maps with gps coords and in fact can even plug in magellan > and garmin gps units (if u upgrade to google earth plus) for real time > positioning. in any event, scan around the bahamas, the caribbs, in > fact I spent a couple of hours 'google sailing" around the world :) > Might help a lot in determining where you want to go :) Take a look > at Lord Howe Island off Austrailia :) Man, that looks like somewhere > that's going on my itinerary hehehe. Anyway, you could burn this > stuff to dvd's and take a lot of harbor maps/ atoll maps etc. and see > just where the the inlets are and the hazards etc. > > Since a lot of this map plotting/charting stuff is heading towards > networking into a laptop, this might end up the future. > > Going to cost you some amps, but if you try this out guys, see if you > don't think these overheads would prove useful in trying to figure out > how to get in and out of a lagoon, or what reefs to watch out for etc. > > Seems to me its better than a lot of these 100 year old charts... > > seer > > PS, one side effect, you do this stuff for an hour or so and it REALLY > starts to motivate you to get into the water :) > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Knut F Garshol" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > would that be any special type of tube (short = mast diameter?, > built for > > outdoor use, other spec'' details)? > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats ] Re: Steel hull and radar detection > > > > > > > > Whatever "Legally" required lights you have , you should always have > > at least one fluorescent tube, visible 8 miles , on your masthead. > > Don't rely only on the leagally required lights to make yourself > > visible.They are less than minimum. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > > yahoogroups. com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > For anyone who hasn't already read it, the MAIB report of the sinking > > > of the Ouzo can be found at: > > > > > http://www.rya > > > > AIBReport.pdf> > > > org.uk/NR/rdonlyres /60475AB0- CB12-45B9- BDCC-1E80129524D 3/0/ MAIBReport. pdf > > > > > > It makes for dismal reading indeed: apart from the actual tragedy > > > itself, it appears that masthead tricolours are considered inadequate > > > when heeled more than 5 degrees or so, and yacht-sized radar > > > reflectors in general appear to be largely ineffective devices - > > > again, especially when heeled. This finding is also a conclusion > > > reached by: > > > http://www.ussailin > > > > g.org/safety/ Studies/radar_ reflector_ test.htm > > > > > > I'm left wondering just how many yachtsmen and women are floating > > > around with a false sense of confidence: under the mistaken notion > > > that they can be easily seen by everybody else, including those > > > heavies carrying both S and X-band radars and with lookouts > > > (supposedly) on station ? > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16124|13189|2008-01-02 18:33:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: water tanks (fuel tanks and fire)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A poly fuel tank below decks dumps a huge quantitiy of fuel on any > fire you may get. > Brent Hi Brent, I must admit that thought had crossed my mind. Polyethylene tanks are widely used in the UK for fuel oil and diesel and there are several companies selling them into the marine market. One argument is that a polypropylene tank is less likely to explode than a metal one. Polyethylene tanks don't rust, split or crack if properly installed and so are less likely to leak over time than a metal tank. When a fire is heating them the diesel will tend to keep the plastic below its vaporisation temperature. From memory as a lad we boiled water in a paper cup over a bunsen burner the water keeping the paper below its ignition temperature. I think that the probability of a PE tank being the cause of grief is less than that of a metal tank. There is a similar argument about nitrile fuel and fuel tank breather hoses. The copper petrol pipes on my motor bikes hardened, cracked and leaked. The plastic ones didn't Fire is obviously of concern in a boat where there is no place to run and one is often surrounded by wood and gallons of fuel. The answer is to be very quick in ones response to the fire, and to a certain extent this needs training or experience in dealing with a fire, so that one doesn't panic. I was about 15 when my first motorcycle caught fire, after I had fallen off it, I didn't know what to do, I had heard how petrol tanks exploded so didn't want to go near but I could see that if I left it the dries grass would catch fire and then a conifer plantation nearby downwind, so I was still hopping from one foot to another when an older friend rode up got off his bike and beat the flames out with half a dozen blows of his leather gauntlets. Since then I have had two other bikes catch fire both when the timing was too advanced and flame shot out of the carburettor and I have been able to deal with them. I have set fire to my clothes and hair welding and grinding, and been involved in putting out combine harvester fires, a boat fire and a drier fire amongst others. We have already had a small fire in our BS36 when engine wiring shorted out after mice had eaten the insulation. We were starting it to circulate the antifreeze around before winter. Using a little water on an oil fire is a worthwhile experiment in a very controlled situation away from anything likely to catch fire, including oneself, orther folks and animals. The size and intensity of the resultant fireball is stunningly impressive and makes it very clear that water is not the way to put it out. I have used a tea towel, rags and in one case a folded paper napkin to protect my hand while I smothered a fire. Another tip is I use cold water or ice to cool my burnt flesh down to stop it cooking more. This need to be done for some time, maybe 20 minutes or more. The cold hurts too so if I remove the ice because of that I use my lips to take the temperature of the burnt part and if it rises again above undamaged parts I keep reapplying the ice or cold water until the temperature stays the same. Please be advised that I take no responsibility for any tort or damages howsoever caused by anybody attempting to carry out the acts heretofore mentioned. I have heard of people using a cheap plastic pump spray such as a window cleaner spray to extinguish small fires with creating too much mess, but I haven't tried it. Regards, Ted| 16125|16113|2008-01-02 18:44:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: Painfully off subject again?|On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 07:28:32AM -0800, bert andjan wrote: > > Happy New Year, may all our welds be clean and pure as > the wind driven Michigan snow... BTW notice what > Michigan did to Florida State yesterday? Yeah - sent us their weather, the nasty buggers. We had temps in the high 70s-low 80s last week; 25degF tonight, with a high of 44degF. Bleh... (How's *that* for a change of subject, Bert? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16126|16102|2008-01-02 19:03:34|Tom|Re: BS 26 pictures|Naw was'nt cutting steel, cutting 1/2" plywood with new skillsaw blade supposedly designed for plywood, POS . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 pictures > The skillsaw that Princess auto sells for metal cutting is a worm gear > saw, which suggests that the trick to metal cutting saws is slow and > high torque. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello all >> Whoa took a while going through all the post today. >> Uploaded a few pictures of the interior. love that new skill saw > blade I picked up at lowes , kinda burns its way through. Grandaughter > was helping and we made a couple cuts in the boat, blue smoke and are > eyes were burnin. >> I still have to do the settee's seat backs and there is room for > four to set there and no they dont double as a birth. V births about > 6'6" long and under the back half is for sail storage. Galley top is > 49" long and little over 30" wide, small sink, single gimbling burner > and a built in ice box forward of that. still have room for 6'6" > quarter births and a bit of a nav station more like a drop down table > atached to the back of WC. Still havnt figured what I want for a table > between the setee's, probably end up using a push in post style and > keep it stored on the WC bulkhead. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16127|16127|2008-01-02 20:46:34|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For operation manager|Our Client, currently operating in West Java, is urgently looking for National and International candidates to fill in the position of "OPERATION MANAGER' Detail related to that position: (MBP-211100-2)Operation Manager Job Summary: To lead, responsible and organize the entire operation function and established standard operation schedules and ensure quality, safety, and cost effectiveness. Responsibilities: - Directly responsible for the operation, safely and effectively. - Supervise departmental managers comprise of Mine Safety/ Health and Environmental, Underground Mine, Processing Manager, Mine Planning/ Engineering and Maintenance to produce 70,000 oz/ yr of gold and beyond. - To approve weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly operating and management reports. - He reports to site GM and direct line to Chief Operating Officer. - Willing to work with various different cultures, people and working environments. Education: - Bachelor degree majoring in Mining Engineering from a reputable University - Hands on experience in the similar position of more than 7 years as Operation Manager - Have the experience in the Under ground gold mining Operation An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the right candidate Your application will be treated confidentially and only short listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your applications with CV and recent photo resumes@... . And quote the above listed reference number of position. Please visit our web www.mbp-skill.com| 16128|16085|2008-01-02 23:08:24|Paul Wilson|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|I have thought of doing the same thing but haven't for one reason....the light coming from LEDs is very narrow and directional. They are very bright when viewed from a narrow angle from straight on only. I think you would have to custom mount the LEDs in the proper reflector to get the proper intensity from the proper angles. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2008 6:49:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Auto Tailights as running reds? Since the new car tailights appear to be all 12 volt diodes, and the housings made out of pretty stout non corrosive plastic, presumably weather sealed, has anyone tried hitting the junkyard and using some as running lights? I REALLY want any vessel close to me, to see that running red :) seer ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16129|13189|2008-01-03 00:06:50|silascrosby|Re: water tanks|Brent, the connection between aluminum exposure or ingestion and future brain problems such as Alzheimer's is very weak if it exists at all.A far bigger risk might be watching TV sports.Haha.( Or boxing?) Recently,Mountain Equipment Co-op stopped selling 'Nalgene' plastic water bottles and is offering aluminum bottles as an alternative. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Given the connection made between aluminium and brain problems later > in life, I'd never trust it for water tanks. An aluminium boatbuilder > said it eventually makes water milky from the oxides. I wouldn't > trust epoxy to stay on it indefinitly. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > I hadnt thought about using aluminum I guess that would be one option, > > would be a bit tricky keeping it isolated from the steel, some say > its safe > > and some say it aint. Stainless would be a good option if it didnt > cost my > > left n** . one thing about stainless is you would have a problem of > > passivating the welds on the inside or it will rust. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aaron Williams" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:14 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] water tanks > > > > > > > Tom > > > I have to ask why not aluminum? > > > Aaron > > > > > > slade green wrote: > > > Tom why not stainless made of kick board(thin stainless) > with > > > baffles not for the weight dist. but because you will be sleeping > ontop of > > > this thing. There is always lots of this stuff a metal recycle > yards. And > > > the reaplication of the epoxy inside of the water tanks is a total > > > nightmare ten years down the line. > > > | 16130|13189|2008-01-03 00:46:54|Paul J. Thompson|Re: water tanks|Well whether the connection is weak or strong (and my sources all say strong), why take the risk when there is no need? Anything a commercial outfit does is not in it's self a recommendation. There interest is profits (their profits) not my health. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor silascrosby wrote: > Brent, the connection between aluminum exposure or ingestion and > future brain problems such as Alzheimer's is very weak if it exists > at all.A far bigger risk might be watching TV sports.Haha.( Or boxing?) > Recently,Mountain Equipment Co-op stopped selling 'Nalgene' plastic > water bottles and is offering aluminum bottles as an alternative. > Steve | 16131|16100|2008-01-03 01:13:58|kingsknight4life|Re: OK, best alternative to the 'can't stop posting' syndrome :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > DAMMMM 327? whoa...i've got to work harder lol, 214 is it for me :) > > seer > >LOL Hit over 300 on my first try and then took a "few trys" to do it again. Rowland| 16132|13189|2008-01-03 02:53:37|T & D Cain|Re: water tanks|Perhaps these links might shed some scientific light on the Alzheimer / Aluminium (aluminum) connection? http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1163941.htm --- note the last par.. http://www.alzheimers.org.au/upload/UpdateSheetAluminium.pdf You would be able to find (Google et al ) hundreds of references to this topic, but look for the date of the publication before classifying the material as currently relevant. Renal Dialysis with water which contained naturally occurring Al was a most unfortunate situation since the failed kidneys were unable to reject the excess build-up. A lot of very useful saucepans went to recycle scrap when the first wave of hysteria hit the populace. Maybe the SS replacements are the next to be targeted for some other health issue? I wonder if Lead piping still exists in some countries, it was certainly in Spain in 1972 as a young couple on vacation will attest ---- low water pressure in an apartment and a handyman approach to the building's pressure regulation system resulted in some amazing dimensional changes of the connections under the wash basins. Terry Well whether the connection is weak or strong (and my sources all say strong), why take the risk when there is no need? silascrosby wrote: > Brent, the connection between aluminum exposure or ingestion and > future brain problems such as Alzheimer's is very weak if it exists > at all.A far bigger risk might be watching TV sports.Haha.( Or boxing?) > Recently,Mountain Equipment Co-op stopped selling 'Nalgene' plastic > water bottles and is offering aluminum bottles as an alternative. > Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16133|16133|2008-01-03 09:27:01|matchauqfriends|You have received a NEW friend request!|You have received a NEW friend request! Check this request here: http://matchaoxfriends.googlepages.com/myfriend.htm| 16134|16085|2008-01-03 10:14:02|edward_stoneuk|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|Hi Seer, How would you do the other side, the green side? The problems of visibility, both by eye and by radar with regard to small vessels has been a topic of much interest lately particularly after the sinking of the OUZO, and this has been reflected in our forum and also in the UK boating media. Points that interested me were. For small boats the running lights visibility requirement of 1 Nm or 2Nm are not really enough considering they may only be a few feet off the surface and that a high speed ferry can be travelling at 30 knots and so has just a few minutes to see one, work out the relative course and then take avoiding action. This visibility is worse in rough weather and when the boat is heeled Cargo boats and indeed Navy boats have hit each other, various rocks, navigation marks, sand banks and countries. It is not unknown for the officer of the watch to have fallen asleep. LED lights are very directional and some proprietary types when tested were dim when heeled. The correct mast lights for a sailing vessel when underway are 360° red over green. This means one can have warning lamps higher up than the running side lights. This means better visibilty than with just sidelights, if they are bright enough and coloured lights at sea always warn others of potential danger. I intend to use red over green and perhaps use coloured glass or plastic over fluorescent as discussed by Bren and Colin or perhaps multiple LED arrays. Regards, Ted LED lights are very directional| 16135|13189|2008-01-03 12:25:10|silascrosby|Re: water tanks|On my centre-cockpit twin keeler I have 4 water tanks. Two are polyethylene and are under a berth in the aft cabin. Combined, they are 50 gals. Two more tanks are integral and are under the main cabin sole. They also hold 50 gals for a total of 100 gals. I used a Devoe (now Ameron) epoxy in the integral tanks that was specified for potability. Despite that, it has always imparted a taste to the water that is removable with a Brita charcoal filter. The taste has faded somewhat over the 15 years but is not gone.I am not using the epoxy lined tanks for drinking or cooking water. I think I will now get bladders to line these two tanks. Does anyone know a good source for these bladders in 15 -35 gallon capacity ? Any experience with durability ? Fortunately they would be very well supported,being inside the tanks(and probably I would lose some of the tank capacity). Even if a bladder sprang a leak the water would be contained. Steve| 16136|16136|2008-01-03 12:46:47|joeearsley|Bladder Tanks|Steve, Happy New Year. I have seen bladder tanks advertised on Defender.com. Your idea sounds good. I am considering washing my future tanks with concrete. THORO has a few products rated for potable water use. http://www.thoroproducts.com/faq.htm I'll be moving your way next September to complete my hull. I'll bring my ski's and maybe we can get into the backcountry! joe| 16137|16085|2008-01-03 14:19:22|seeratlas|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|Ted, :) still working on the green side :) I'm guessing there are clear led's out there say for back up lights or something, too :) Let you know when I figure it out :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > How would you do the other side, the green side? > > The problems of visibility, both by eye and by radar with regard to > small vessels has been a topic of much interest lately particularly > after the sinking of the OUZO, and this has been reflected in our > forum and also in the UK boating media. Points that interested me > were. > > For small boats the running lights visibility requirement of 1 Nm or > 2Nm are not really enough considering they may only be a few feet off > the surface and that a high speed ferry can be travelling at 30 knots > and so has just a few minutes to see one, work out the relative > course and then take avoiding action. > > This visibility is worse in rough weather and when the boat is heeled > > Cargo boats and indeed Navy boats have hit each other, various rocks, > navigation marks, sand banks and countries. It is not unknown for > the officer of the watch to have fallen asleep. > > LED lights are very directional and some proprietary types when > tested were dim when heeled. > > The correct mast lights for a sailing vessel when underway are 360° > red over green. This means one can have warning lamps higher up than > the running side lights. This means better visibilty than with just > sidelights, if they are bright enough and coloured lights at sea > always warn others of potential danger. I intend to use red over > green and perhaps use coloured glass or plastic over fluorescent as > discussed by Bren and Colin or perhaps multiple LED arrays. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > LED lights are very directional > | 16138|15985|2008-01-03 14:26:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Google Earth cruising. :)|On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 08:23:10PM -0000, jim_both wrote: > I've been using Google earth to make topo charts that can be read by > Coastal Explorer by geo-referencing them with Long/Lat coordinates. > > If you cruise in US waters; check out: > > http://earthnc.com/ They had an article about in "Southern Boating" last month - pretty nifty stuff. My take on it is that it's the new ENC charts kicking in: once the software for them is universally available, charts will be essentially free (you can download everything that NOAA and DMA have right now.) There's an ENC reader for Linux, and there's lots of proprietary (read "expensive") software around - or there's EarthNC. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16139|13189|2008-01-03 14:40:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: water tanks|On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:25:09PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > > I am not > using the epoxy lined tanks for drinking or cooking water. I think I > will now get bladders to line these two tanks. > Does anyone know a good source for these bladders in 15 -35 gallon > capacity ? Any experience with durability ? I used to have two Vetus bladders on my old boat, totalling 35 gl. No taste (after I washed one of them out with vinegar), durable as hell. I actually tried to cut a tiny corner off, out of curiosity; couldn't make anything more than a shallow gash with a razor, and a serrated knife made only a tiny notch and wouldn't cut any further. I suspect that a cutting wheel on a high-speed grinder would go through it fairly quick, but it should stand up well to pretty much anything else. Vetus, by the way, makes these bags all the way up to a size that's used as a counterweight for cranes, and also makes fuel bladders. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16140|16085|2008-01-03 16:19:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|Hi Seer, There are LED suppliers on the web, It is a case of soldering them up and fitting the heat sinks and other bits to make them work. I don't know too much about them but have read info on and have a freind who has put some in his vehicle interior. I am wary about making compulsory side lights out of them in case there is an issue with the authorites or lawyers after an incident, but for none compulsory lights such as the red over green they would be great. Regards, Ted| 16141|16085|2008-01-03 19:49:59|seeratlas|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|The ones for sale commercially seem extraordinarily expensive for what you get. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > There are LED suppliers on the web, It is a case of soldering them up > and fitting the heat sinks and other bits to make them work. I don't > know too much about them but have read info on and have a freind who > has put some in his vehicle interior. I am wary about making > compulsory side lights out of them in case there is an issue with the > authorites or lawyers after an incident, but for none compulsory lights > such as the red over green they would be great. > > Regards, > Ted > | 16142|13189|2008-01-03 20:52:11|silascrosby|Re: water tanks|Joe and Ben, Thanks for the bladder info. Looks like ordering Vetus Tanks from Defender will be a good way to go. Anyone here have experience with on-line ordering from Defender to Canada ? Any charges other than shipping and GST ? ( like duty,handling) Joe, just back from a day of ski-touring. My buddy took a ride in a small avalanche. A near-miss. Maybe I will work on the boat tomorrow. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:25:09PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > > > > I am not > > using the epoxy lined tanks for drinking or cooking water. I think I > > will now get bladders to line these two tanks. > > Does anyone know a good source for these bladders in 15 -35 gallon > > capacity ? Any experience with durability ? > > I used to have two Vetus bladders on my old boat, totalling 35 gl. No > taste (after I washed one of them out with vinegar), durable as hell. I > actually tried to cut a tiny corner off, out of curiosity; couldn't make > anything more than a shallow gash with a razor, and a serrated knife > made only a tiny notch and wouldn't cut any further. I suspect that a > cutting wheel on a high-speed grinder would go through it fairly quick, > but it should stand up well to pretty much anything else. > > Vetus, by the way, makes these bags all the way up to a size that's used > as a counterweight for cranes, and also makes fuel bladders. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16143|16085|2008-01-03 20:59:05|Paul Wilson|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|Seer, Check out www.bebi-electronics.com The high brightness LEDs are relatively expensive but coming down in price all the time. I am currently working on a helicopter with LED running lights. I am told they are $3500 US each. OUCH! Cheers, Paul --- seeratlas wrote: > The ones for sale commercially seem extraordinarily > expensive for what > you get. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Seer, > > > > There are LED suppliers on the web, It is a case > of soldering them up > > and fitting the heat sinks and other bits to make > them work. I don't > > know too much about them but have read info on and > have a freind who > > has put some in his vehicle interior. I am wary > about making > > compulsory side lights out of them in case there > is an issue with the > > authorites or lawyers after an incident, but for > none compulsory lights > > such as the red over green they would be great. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 16144|13189|2008-01-03 21:17:33|Michael Casling|Re: water tanks|Thanks for asking. Following are the exact words in a letter from Defender dated 02 Nov. 1999. " Please be advised that your credit card is being charged an additional $10.65 for duties and taxes that have been charged to us by Federal Express" This was for a duty free product and after Defender had charged all applicable taxes. This seems to be a common practice of Federal Express. Maybe that is not fair, but it happened to a friend in the exact same manner in Dec. 007. It also happened to me last year. My suggestion is you chat with Defender about this, and do not use Federal Express. Vetus products are available in Vancouver BC. I can't find the catalogue but can find out who the rep is at the Vancouver Boat Show. Anyone going? Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Joe and Ben, > Thanks for the bladder info. Looks like ordering Vetus Tanks from > Defender will be a good way to go. > Anyone here have experience with on-line ordering from Defender to > Canada ? Any charges other than shipping and GST ? ( like duty,handling) > > Joe, just back from a day of ski-touring. My buddy took a ride in a > small avalanche. A near-miss. Maybe I will work on the boat tomorrow. > Steve | 16145|13189|2008-01-03 21:38:03|Paul J. Thompson|Re: water tanks|Steve, I use the Nautilus bladders from West Marine. They have been on board La Chica since 1999. They are tough but you should make sure that they are well secured so as to prevent chafe. Mine are inside a tank as you are planning and have been totally trouble free. I ordered stuff from Defender back in 2000. It was a pain free experience at that time. West Marine have also been pain free for me. When ordering from the Caribbean, South America and the USA. Just price plus shipping. No hidden charges from either. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor silascrosby wrote: > Joe and Ben, > Thanks for the bladder info. Looks like ordering Vetus Tanks from > Defender will be a good way to go. > Anyone here have experience with on-line ordering from Defender to > Canada ? Any charges other than shipping and GST ? ( like duty,handling) | 16146|16146|2008-01-04 00:46:42|Tom|Anti Piracy techniques?|The Electric Fence idea is being recommended to Cargo ships. Link to Piracy reports http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php Link to Electric Fence site http://www.secure-marine.com/ship_intro.htm Aside from avoiding areas, what other alternatives have you used? Tom - KA0TP| 16147|16085|2008-01-04 06:44:09|sae140|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > The correct mast lights for a sailing vessel when underway are 360° > red over green. This means one can have warning lamps higher up than > the running side lights. This means better visibilty than with just > sidelights, if they are bright enough and coloured lights at sea > always warn others of potential danger. I intend to use red over > green and perhaps use coloured glass or plastic over fluorescent as > discussed by Bren and Colin or perhaps multiple LED arrays. > > Regards, > Ted > Hi Ted I came across a 360 'red over green' light assembly while rooting around a scrap yard last year. The lenses were physically adjacent (with 2 separate bulbs) and on the end of a busted pole - I guess it was some kind of factory in-house traffic management indicator. The assembly came apart easily enough and it was my intention to build a mast-head light from the two lenses - but - I then discovered that a 'red over green' has to be carried in addition to sides and a stern, not in lieu of. Bummer. I also discovered that the vertical lights need to be at least a metre apart in order to comply with the requirement that they can be distinguished as 2 separate lights at 1nm. Mmmm - getting complicated. I then thought about how the 2 lenses could be physically mounted. That's not as easy as it first seems. Firstly, to be visible 360, the whole caboodle needs to be mounted above the mast. A pole through the middle of the lenses wouldn't work, as that's where the bulbs need to be (unless using a ring LED array, of course). I guess the lenses would need to be mounted using s/s wire cages to avoid shielding - unless anyone has a better solution ?? It may be that a simple pole and 2 sets of ring LEDs is the only viable option. Colin| 16148|13189|2008-01-04 08:20:45|audeojude|Re: water tanks|here is a like to some plastimo water bladders at marisafe http://www.marisafe.com/Store/ViewCategories.asp?CID=45300000 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > Thanks for asking. Following are the exact words in a letter from > Defender dated 02 Nov. 1999. > " Please be advised that your credit card is being charged an > additional $10.65 for duties and taxes that have been charged to us by > Federal Express" > This was for a duty free product and after Defender had charged all > applicable taxes. This seems to be a common practice of Federal Express. > Maybe that is not fair, but it happened to a friend in the exact same > manner in Dec. 007. It also happened to me last year. > My suggestion is you chat with Defender about this, and do not use > Federal Express. > Vetus products are available in Vancouver BC. I can't find the > catalogue but can find out who the rep is at the Vancouver Boat Show. > Anyone going? > > Michael > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" > wrote: > > > > Joe and Ben, > > Thanks for the bladder info. Looks like ordering Vetus Tanks from > > Defender will be a good way to go. > > Anyone here have experience with on-line ordering from Defender to > > Canada ? Any charges other than shipping and GST ? ( like > duty,handling) > > > > Joe, just back from a day of ski-touring. My buddy took a ride in a > > small avalanche. A near-miss. Maybe I will work on the boat tomorrow. > > Steve > | 16149|16085|2008-01-04 09:01:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 11:44:05AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > I then thought about how the 2 lenses could be physically mounted. > That's not as easy as it first seems. Firstly, to be visible 360, the > whole caboodle needs to be mounted above the mast. A pole through the > middle of the lenses wouldn't work, as that's where the bulbs need to > be (unless using a ring LED array, of course). I guess the lenses > would need to be mounted using s/s wire cages to avoid shielding - > unless anyone has a better solution ?? You could still use a pole through the middle if you used either a pair or a trio of bulbs around it. That would waste power, though. I actually got involved in an analysis phase for a project like this - specifically, designing an LED masthead light. There's a lot to it. Most high-intensity LEDs (at least those that are bright enough to fit the legal requirements) have a rather narrow output angle - 15 degrees is about average. Building a ring of them would be extremely wasteful: you'd need 24 (360/15) LED segments to cover 360 degrees, and you'd need at least 5 LEDs _per segment_ to cover the vertical angle requirements (24 * 5 = 120 LEDs). Not workable, obviously. There are people out there who sell LED-based masthead lights, and at least one of them claims to be Coast-Guard approved. Their product has 7 LEDs in a spiral around a central mount; I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions. The answer seems to be carefully-designed reflectors (e.g., take a look at the brake lights on a new Lexus minivan, which use that approach: they cover a wide angle, and are bright enough to make your eyes water.) Unfortunately, that presumes a high-precision manufacturing facility - not something you can hack up on a moment's notice. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16150|16150|2008-01-04 15:23:52|Victor Giraud| Re: Auto Tailights as running reds? |Led's are available in green also. Try www.flipflopled.com Most are automotive replacementlamps, but it may be a good starting point. Met the owner at a swap meet. Seemed a good guy. Vic| 16151|16151|2008-01-04 15:38:05|Stephen Wandling|35' Steel Boat For Sale|Some of you may recall when I started my project to convert a Bruce Roberts 345 to a real boat. I am now retired and will not have the funds to complete this project. I have the boat for sale on craigslist: http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/492836447.html This boat is just under 35' on deck and has lots of interior space with the 11' 8" beam. Brent and Evan Shaler both helped me by working on this project and the pictures will show the "Swain" influence in the cabin/pilothouse, skeg and outboard rudder. If you're interested, take a look at my ad and then email or telephone me with questions or to set up a visit to the boat. Cheers, Stephen| 16152|13189|2008-01-04 15:49:38|Paul J. Thompson|Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Hi Guys, Can Brent (or anyone else who might know) advise me on the size of the cooling tank required for the closed engine coolant system? I assume it must be around the size of a BS31/36 skeg. My La Chica is not BS boat (unfortunately :-( ) but I am incorporating many of his ideas. My engine is a 3 cylinder Mitsubishi diesel. Rated 22hp. I am thinking of going the dry exhaust/skeg cooling route but since La Chica does not have a skeg (full keel, double ender) I am thinking of putting a small tank on the side of the keel (what would be the deadwood in a wooden boat) beneath the propellor. Any comments? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 16153|13189|2008-01-04 22:18:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 09:49:36AM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Can Brent (or anyone else who might know) advise me on the size of the > cooling tank required for the closed engine coolant system? I assume it > must be around the size of a BS31/36 skeg. My La Chica is not BS boat > (unfortunately :-( ) but I am incorporating many of his ideas. > > My engine is a 3 cylinder Mitsubishi diesel. Rated 22hp. I am thinking > of going the dry exhaust/skeg cooling route but since La Chica does not > have a skeg (full keel, double ender) I am thinking of putting a small > tank on the side of the keel (what would be the deadwood in a wooden > boat) beneath the propellor. > > Any comments? I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but my "coolant tank" (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never gets really boiling hot, no matter what - even when the outside temps are scorching. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16154|13189|2008-01-05 00:10:45|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling tank for just 22hp that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I have not found one yet. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but my "coolant tank" > (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x > 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never gets really boiling hot, > no matter what - even when the outside temps are scorching. | 16155|13189|2008-01-05 01:54:26|T & D Cain|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Paul, The following specification relates to typical UK conditions and is an extract from a Lister-Petter --- Hawker-Siddeley engine operator's handbook. Keel cooler area for a 1600cc Golf diesel conversion (engine has Bowman header tank/heat exchanger/exhaust manifold} : Good conductor: 6.27 sq M or 67.5 sq ft. Poor conductor: 10.45 " 112.5 " . The tank must be shallow (min 2") with dividing plates to spread coolant flow over the whole cooled area. Coolant Mix SG. 1.130 @ 14deg.C Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16156|16085|2008-01-05 08:54:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: Auto Tailights as running reds?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: http://www.bebi-electronics.com/specs.html#vertical> > I actually got involved in an analysis phase for a project like this - > specifically, designing an LED masthead light. There's a lot to it. Most > high-intensity LEDs (at least those that are bright enough to fit the > legal requirements) have a rather narrow output angle - 15 degrees is > about average. Building a ring of them would be extremely wasteful: > you'd need 24 (360/15) LED segments to cover 360 degrees, and you'd need > at least 5 LEDs _per segment_ to cover the vertical angle requirements > (24 * 5 = 120 LEDs). Not workable, obviously. There are people out there > who sell LED-based masthead lights, and at least one of them claims to > be Coast-Guard approved. Their product has 7 LEDs in a spiral around a > central mount; I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions. > > The answer seems to be carefully-designed reflectors (e.g., take a look > at the brake lights on a new Lexus minivan, which use that approach: > they cover a wide angle, and are bright enough to make your eyes water.) > Unfortunately, that presumes a high-precision manufacturing facility - > not something you can hack up on a moment's notice. Hi Ben, That was interesting info. LEDs and legality with regard to the Colregs is a also an interesting area. Looking through the web there are all sorts of offerings at all sorts of prices. It may be safer and perhaps no more expensive to stay with incandescant lamps and a wind generator. This web page has some good detail. http://www.bebi-electronics.com/specs.html#vertical Regards, Ted | 16157|16157|2008-01-05 10:13:41|seeratlas|Good DIY boat site|some interesting boat related repair and install instructions. http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects very good instructions on doing your stuffing boxes. that's an easy thing to screw up. seer| 16158|16158|2008-01-05 10:16:17|seeratlas|Anyone Headed to the Miami Boat show in Feb?|I'm going to be heading down there for the last few days (last day is the 'party' which is way fun if you havn't done it before :) and they give away all sorts of sailing goodies hehehe If you are *single* , be sure and bring pictures of your boat, or if yours looks like hell, of someone elses hehehehe Gotta love miami :) seer| 16159|13189|2008-01-05 13:08:44|Ben Okopnik|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 06:10:43PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling tank for just 22hp > that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) [laugh] Why not? That would make your boat into a "luxury yacht". Note that I'm cooling a 52HP Mitsubishi - not that much bigger than yours - so it might provide an idea for a starting point. > There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I > have not found one yet. It's probably best to contact the engine manufacturer to find out the amount of heat generated by the engine, then figure out - planning for the worst-case conditions and adding a safety factor - the size of the heat sink that you need. The formula for calculating it also depends on some limiting factors: e.g., the "radiator" shouldn't be so deep that a separate layer of water (one that isn't getting cooled) can form. Other than that, it's the average time that the water spends in the radiator (depends of amount and speed of flow), the surface area of the radiator, the thermal conductivity of the wall material (steel is great, but epoxy is middlin'), and the temperature differential between the inside and the outside. Or you could just see what other people are using, find out how well it works, and extrapolate some curves. Which is where I came in. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16160|13189|2008-01-05 16:03:58|jonathanswef|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Paul, You might try the www.betamarine.co.uk site. They sell keel cooled models of their engines and last time I looked had guidance notes. On the narrow boats here in the UK the usual thing is to divide the engine horse power by four which then equals the number of square feet of cooling surface area you need. This doesn't allow for long periods at full power though, for that it is better to divide by three. Best wishes, Jonathan.| 16161|13189|2008-01-05 17:09:51|Tom|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|That wouldnd be much for a 12hp 3 sq ft of surface area, mabee real cold water? figured it out on my skeg and I have about 12 sq ft that is on the BS26. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank > Paul, > You might try the www.betamarine.co.uk site. They sell keel cooled > models of their engines and last time I looked had guidance notes. > On the narrow boats here in the UK the usual thing is to divide the > engine horse power by four which then equals the number of square feet > of cooling surface area you need. This doesn't allow for long periods > at full power though, for that it is better to divide by three. > Best wishes, > Jonathan. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16162|13189|2008-01-05 17:20:24|brentswain38|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|I once replaced some keel cooling pipes on a tug. They had been in use in warm waters much of the time since 1947, and had caused no heating problems. They were around 1 1/2 sq feet of surface area per 10 HP. Iron Butterfly , one of my 36 footers, used the skeg , only half full of coolant , to cool a 22 hp Yanmmar, in the tropics , while also using it to cool a freezer. No problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Can Brent (or anyone else who might know) advise me on the size of the > cooling tank required for the closed engine coolant system? I assume it > must be around the size of a BS31/36 skeg. My La Chica is not BS boat > (unfortunately :-( ) but I am incorporating many of his ideas. > > My engine is a 3 cylinder Mitsubishi diesel. Rated 22hp. I am thinking > of going the dry exhaust/skeg cooling route but since La Chica does not > have a skeg (full keel, double ender) I am thinking of putting a small > tank on the side of the keel (what would be the deadwood in a wooden > boat) beneath the propellor. > > Any comments? > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 16163|13189|2008-01-05 18:26:27|J Fisher|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Heat output for an IC engine is about the same as the HP. FWIW for a gas engine at full throttle about 1/3 of the energy goes to work, 1/3 to heat in the exhaust and 1/3 to the radiator. So if you are getting 22 hp, you are sending 22 hp of heat to the exhaust and 22 hp of heat to the radiator and consuming enough fuel for 66 hp. Note that these % vary a little, but probably not enough to worry about for sizing a radiator. John Note that I'm cooling a 52HP Mitsubishi - not that much bigger than yours - so it might provide an idea for a starting point. > There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I > have not found one yet. It's probably best to contact the engine manufacturer to find out the amount of heat generated by the engine, then figure out - planning for the worst-case conditions and adding a safety factor - the size of the heat sink that you need. The formula for calculating it also depends on some limiting factors: e.g., the "radiator" shouldn't be so deep that a separate layer of water (one that isn't getting cooled) can form. Other than that, it's the average time that the water spends in the radiator (depends of amount and speed of flow), the surface area of the radiator, the thermal conductivity of the wall material (steel is great, but epoxy is middlin'), and the temperature differential between the inside and the outside. Or you could just see what other people are using, find out how well it works, and extrapolate some curves. Which is where I came in. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16164|16164|2008-01-06 00:21:11|seeratlas|Brent's Water Maker|Brent, getting ready to get the pieces together for my water maker. how is yours getting along? and do you still recommend that General TT9111 pump. Any new suggestions beyond what you have in the book? (finally got my book back :) hehehe seer| 16165|13189|2008-01-06 04:34:28|mickeyolaf|Re: water tanks|I ordered lifeline turnbuckles from Defender's clearance site. Bronze ones made in England. They were good quality. Defender delivered them fast. I send all of my US purchases to Point Roberts to a shipping company where I pay $3.00 to pick up any order. That way u avoid all brokers fees. I drive my stuff thru the border myself and most of the time I am not sent in to Customs to pay so I also save the taxes. I have heard that Vetus tanks do not like to chafe. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Joe and Ben, > Thanks for the bladder info. Looks like ordering Vetus Tanks from > Defender will be a good way to go. > Anyone here have experience with on-line ordering from Defender to > Canada ? Any charges other than shipping and GST ? ( like duty,handling) > > Joe, just back from a day of ski-touring. My buddy took a ride in a > small avalanche. A near-miss. Maybe I will work on the boat tomorrow. > Steve > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:25:09PM -0000, silascrosby wrote: > > > > > > I am not > > > using the epoxy lined tanks for drinking or cooking water. I think I > > > will now get bladders to line these two tanks. > > > Does anyone know a good source for these bladders in 15 -35 gallon > > > capacity ? Any experience with durability ? > > > > I used to have two Vetus bladders on my old boat, totalling 35 gl. No > > taste (after I washed one of them out with vinegar), durable as hell. I > > actually tried to cut a tiny corner off, out of curiosity; couldn't make > > anything more than a shallow gash with a razor, and a serrated knife > > made only a tiny notch and wouldn't cut any further. I suspect that a > > cutting wheel on a high-speed grinder would go through it fairly quick, > > but it should stand up well to pretty much anything else. > > > > Vetus, by the way, makes these bags all the way up to a size that's used > > as a counterweight for cranes, and also makes fuel bladders. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 16166|13189|2008-01-06 07:29:47|Denis Buggy|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Paul you can use as a guess at least quadruple your existing cooling arrangements by gallon measurement plus a LARGE TRUCK TYPE high mounted header tank as you have no cooling fins or fan and you must pay close attention to the thermostat as it is vital to have your engine at working temp . we use an excellent US co here in Ireland called MURPHY SWITCHGUAGE . this co supply a mechanical i.e. capillary mercury type , temp warning gauge which has adjustable gold plated contacts which will activate a common car relay which will activate a car horn and has worked for us for the past 20 years without fault on rear and mid mounted bus engines covering millions of miles in that time . we have even moved a gauge from retiring buses into new . you should use a used truck header tank these are often plastic and very strong being flexible and often contain a low water float switch which is an earth wire type and this is essential for a boat as out of sight is out of mind . avoid sharp bends in your large pipes . 50 mm INSIDE DIAM a good size for pipes and hoses and for matching up header tanks and water pipes and it will flow and make sure you can vent air bubbles from the top of your engine to your header tank , some thermostats have a pin hole to do this and watch the waterpump we have had engines mainly DAF which needed the air removed from the impeller of the waterpump to make the cooling work and sometimes trapped air would travel the following day from the water-cooled heat exchanger in the auto box and boil the engine again by removing water from the waterpump impeller . there should be a death row for overpaid engineers who never have to work on their designs . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:10 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size of keel/engine cooling tank Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling tank for just 22hp that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I have not found one yet. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Ben Okopnik wrote: > > I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but my "coolant tank" > (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x > 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never gets really boiling hot, > no matter what - even when the outside temps are scorching. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16167|13189|2008-01-06 10:00:40|Carl Anderson|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|My Isuzu (52 HP gross, 48 net) has a MURPHY SWITCHGUAGE installed by Klassen on the header tank (which is part of the exhaust manifold). The model I have monitors the coolant level in the header tank. I have had the problem, as noted below, getting all the air bubbles out of the cooling system. What worked for me was running the engine with the thermostat removed for a while. As for cooling, when I ran without the thermostat, the engine temperature at 2000 RPM was just under 150 degrees F (at 1000 RPM the temp was down around 130 F). This was using the BS36 skeg for cooling and the location was inside the Gulf Islands, BC. After getting all the air out of the system and reinstalling the thermostat the temp was the "normal" 180 degree F. As I remember the cooling system took around 12 gallons of coolant to fill it. I'm using 1-1/4" hose (1" sch 40 pipe for the tank fittings) on the cooling system. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Denis Buggy wrote: > > > Paul you can use as a guess at least quadruple your existing cooling > arrangements by gallon measurement plus a LARGE TRUCK TYPE high mounted > header tank as you have no cooling fins or fan and you must pay close > attention to the thermostat as it is vital to have your engine at > working temp . we use an excellent US co here in Ireland called MURPHY > SWITCHGUAGE . this co supply a mechanical i.e. capillary mercury type , > temp warning gauge which has adjustable gold plated contacts which will > activate a common car relay which will activate a car horn and has > worked for us for the past 20 years without fault on rear and mid > mounted bus engines covering millions of miles in that time . we have > even moved a gauge from retiring buses into new . you should use a used > truck header tank these are often plastic and very strong being flexible > and often contain a low water float switch which is an earth wire type > and this is essential for a boat as out of sight is out of mind . > avoid sharp bends in your large pipes . > 50 mm INSIDE DIAM a good size for pipes and hoses and for matching up > header tanks and water pipes and it will flow and make sure you can vent > air bubbles from the top of your engine to your header tank , some > thermostats have a pin hole to do this and watch the waterpump we have > had engines mainly DAF which needed the air removed from the impeller of > the waterpump to make the cooling work and sometimes trapped air would > travel the following day from the water-cooled heat exchanger in the > auto box and boil the engine again by removing water from the waterpump > impeller . there should be a death row for overpaid engineers who never > have to work on their designs . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size of keel/engine cooling tank > > Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling tank for just 22hp > that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) > > There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I > have not found one yet. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but my "coolant tank" > > (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x > > 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never gets really boiling hot, > > no matter what - even when the outside temps are scorching. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16168|16168|2008-01-06 12:34:21|stableman2|size of BS yachts|Tom , I really admire the 26 fott boat you (?) built , in your photo file . Is it a BS ? ? - I feel i want to build a 26 rather than a 31 footer , though I do want bilge keels and the ability to transit the European canal system , also possibly the Danube . And--Has anyone considered the Yago ? James| 16169|16169|2008-01-06 14:45:49|silascrosby|Coolant and Murphy Switchgage|Carl, Tell me more about this gage. Where does it go and what does it do? I read your description of getting all the air bubbles out of your cooling system. My experience is similar and it is always a trial when I change/renew the coolant. Steve| 16170|16168|2008-01-06 20:19:58|Tom|Re: size of BS yachts|Hello James Yes its a Brent Swain 26 foot . I built it pretty much to the plans, cabin is 6" wider at the bottom than the plans show other than that its to design Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "stableman2" To: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] size of BS yachts > Tom , I really admire the 26 fott boat you (?) built , in your photo > file . Is it a BS ? ? - I feel i want to build a 26 rather than a 31 > footer , though I do want bilge keels and the ability to transit the > European canal system , also possibly the Danube . And--Has anyone > considered the Yago ? James > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16171|16169|2008-01-06 21:31:17|Carl Anderson|Re: Coolant and Murphy Switchgage|Steve, The one that I have monitors the coolant level. It is attached to the side of the header tank and has fittings at the top & bottom of the tank. If the coolant level drops below half full in the header tank the switchguage activates the alarm on the engine panel. I'll send you a picture of the gage if I can find one. Carl silascrosby wrote: > > > Carl, Tell me more about this gage. Where does it go and what does it do? > I read your description of getting all the air bubbles out of your > cooling system. My experience is similar and it is always a trial when > I change/renew the coolant. > Steve > | 16172|16172|2008-01-06 21:55:40|seeratlas|Homemade Anchor|Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson supreme. http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2106&catid=member&imageuser=502 dead simple :) seer| 16173|16173|2008-01-06 22:03:00|cptcrunch100|Who owns Silas Crosby|I notice from your pics there is a lot of aluminium, at least on the dodger. I assume your steel, but did you weld the aluminum or is it bolted. If you have more pics of the dodger could you post them.| 16174|16173|2008-01-06 22:03:09|cptcrunch100|Who owns Silas Crosby|I notice from your pics there is a lot of aluminium, at least on the dodger. I assume your steel, but did you weld the aluminum or is it bolted. If you have more pics of the dodger could you post them.| 16175|16172|2008-01-06 22:08:17|slade green|Re: Homemade Anchor|I Like It!! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16176|16172|2008-01-06 22:18:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homemade Anchor|On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 02:55:39AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > supreme. > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2106&catid=member&imageuser=502 > > dead simple :) The plow section looks like really thin sheet metal in that photo. If I was going to build something like that, I'd go for a minimum of 1/2" steel for that area - and maybe run some doublers or some multiple passes right along where the shank is welded. Otherwise, it's likely to fold like paper as soon as a decent side load comes onto it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16177|16172|2008-01-06 22:39:08|Paul Wilson|Re: Homemade Anchor|I agree with Ben, It doesn't look nearly strong enough. I made a big danforth storm anchor out of scrap stainless. It had a much larger shank than the anchor shown in the pictures and it bent like a pretzel during a storm. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:18:25 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Homemade Anchor On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 02:55:39AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > supreme. > > http://www.cruisers forum.com/ gallery/showimag e.php?i=2106& catid=member& imageuser= 502 > > dead simple :) The plow section looks like really thin sheet metal in that photo. If I was going to build something like that, I'd go for a minimum of 1/2" steel for that area - and maybe run some doublers or some multiple passes right along where the shank is welded. Otherwise, it's likely to fold like paper as soon as a decent side load comes onto it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16178|16172|2008-01-06 23:35:54|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor|WEll, I happen to agree with you both. In the version I'm working up, it will be a lot more stout as the anchor is supposed to weigh between 70 and 80 lbs. Second on the original manson and rocna types, there appears to be substantial reinforcement underneath, a much thicker shank, and a 'chisel' type tip to the plow, which is thicker/heavier than the rest of the palm/palms for cutting into whatever the bottom might be. i just thought this guy did a pretty good job in stainless. Very pretty :) HEHEHE, and he reports the major problem is getting the anchor back up as it digs in so deep it takes him quite some time to break it out. In any event, you can see how simple this thing is to do. Like I said, they want 3k US for the stainless version of the 70 lb'r I need...aint going to get it either :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I agree with Ben, > > It doesn't look nearly strong enough. I made a big danforth storm anchor out of scrap stainless. It had a much larger shank than the anchor shown in the pictures and it bent like a pretzel during a storm. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:18:25 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Homemade Anchor > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 02:55:39AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > > supreme. > > > > http://www.cruisers forum.com/ gallery/showimag e.php?i=2106& catid=member& imageuser= 502 > > > > dead simple :) > > The plow section looks like really thin sheet metal in that photo. If I > was going to build something like that, I'd go for a minimum of 1/2" > steel for that area - and maybe run some doublers or some multiple > passes right along where the shank is welded. Otherwise, it's likely to > fold like paper as soon as a decent side load comes onto it. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16179|16173|2008-01-06 23:41:03|silascrosby|Re: Who owns Silas Crosby|Only the dodger is aluminum.It is welded to what used to be the boom gallows which is two inch alum. pipe.New gallows are off the top of the dodger. The connection to the boat is at four points and are mechanical.It seems strong, certainly stronger than the usual dodger. I will try to get a photo. It has been an excellent addition to the pilothouse. I can walk on it for mainsail furling. No standing headroom under it. Room for two to sit under cover. I find it difficult to actually sail the boat in anything but steady conditions from inside the pilothouse. The autopilot and windvane are both very effective but I really like steering under sail in local waters. Alex's you-tube vid might show some details. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > I notice from your pics there is a lot of aluminium, at least on the > dodger. I assume your steel, but did you weld the aluminum or is it > bolted. If you have more pics of the dodger could you post them. > | 16180|16169|2008-01-07 03:25:47|Denis Buggy|Re: Coolant and Murphy Switchgage|steve try FWMURPHY.COM for USA AREA for your details. denis ----- Original Message ----- From: silascrosby To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Coolant and Murphy Switchgage Carl, Tell me more about this gage. Where does it go and what does it do? I read your description of getting all the air bubbles out of your cooling system. My experience is similar and it is always a trial when I change/renew the coolant. Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16181|16151|2008-01-07 16:58:41|Stephen Wandling|Re: 35' Steel Boat For Sale|Its been brought to my attention that although I have changed my email address in my profile, if you respond to me by replying to this email you will be sending to a dead account. My current email address is: swandling@... Thanks, Stephen --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Wandling" wrote: > > Some of you may recall when I started my project to convert a Bruce > Roberts 345 to a real boat. I am now retired and will not have the > funds to complete this project. > > I have the boat for sale on craigslist: > http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/492836447.html > > This boat is just under 35' on deck and has lots of interior space > with the 11' 8" beam. Brent and Evan Shaler both helped me by working > on this project and the pictures will show the "Swain" influence in > the cabin/pilothouse, skeg and outboard rudder. > > If you're interested, take a look at my ad and then email or telephone > me with questions or to set up a visit to the boat. > > Cheers, > > Stephen > | 16182|16172|2008-01-09 15:17:39|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor|On boxing day we had an anchor discussion ,and Francine said the simple way to stop the Rocna rcok from jamming into a rocna and refusing to leave was to tack a piece of flatbar from the shank to the centre of the flukes.If it is a bit back from the tip it shouldn't affect holding power. Warants some experimenting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > WEll, I happen to agree with you both. In the version I'm working up, > it will be a lot more stout as the anchor is supposed to weigh between > 70 and 80 lbs. Second on the original manson and rocna types, there > appears to be substantial reinforcement underneath, a much thicker > shank, and a 'chisel' type tip to the plow, which is thicker/heavier > than the rest of the palm/palms for cutting into whatever the bottom > might be. i just thought this guy did a pretty good job in stainless. > Very pretty :) HEHEHE, and he reports the major problem is getting the > anchor back up as it digs in so deep it takes him quite some time to > break it out. In any event, you can see how simple this thing is to > do. Like I said, they want 3k US for the stainless version of the 70 > lb'r I need...aint going to get it either :) heheh > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I agree with Ben, > > > > It doesn't look nearly strong enough. I made a big danforth storm > anchor out of scrap stainless. It had a much larger shank than the > anchor shown in the pictures and it bent like a pretzel during a storm. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 11:18:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Homemade Anchor > > > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 02:55:39AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > > > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > > > supreme. > > > > > > http://www.cruisers forum.com/ gallery/showimag e.php?i=2106& > catid=member& imageuser= 502 > > > > > > dead simple :) > > > > The plow section looks like really thin sheet metal in that photo. If I > > was going to build something like that, I'd go for a minimum of 1/2" > > steel for that area - and maybe run some doublers or some multiple > > passes right along where the shank is welded. Otherwise, it's likely to > > fold like paper as soon as a decent side load comes onto it. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16183|16164|2008-01-09 15:21:39|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Water Maker|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, getting ready to get the pieces together for my water maker. > how is yours getting along? and do you still recommend that General > TT9111 pump. Any new suggestions beyond what you have in the book? > (finally got my book back :) hehehe > > seer > Mine works fine. To avoid getting surface bubbles in , you have to go as deep as possible for the intake. Wolf suggested that I make a 6 inch long expansion tank out of 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe to cushion the hydrostatic shock caused by bubbles in the system, and mount it just before the high pressure hose goes into the membrane housing. This is my current project. Brent| 16184|16169|2008-01-09 15:26:29|brentswain38|Re: Coolant and Murphy Switchgage|I made up a gizmo to plug into the outlet in the bottom of the header tank which lets me hook up the outlet directly to my pressure shower tank full of coolant , and force the coolant thru the sytem under pressure , forcing all air bubbles out. Works well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "silascrosby" wrote: > > Carl, Tell me more about this gage. Where does it go and what does it do? > I read your description of getting all the air bubbles out of your > cooling system. My experience is similar and it is always a trial when > I change/renew the coolant. > Steve > | 16185|16172|2008-01-09 15:28:44|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor|I suspect the kink in the flukes doesn't make much difference , and a flat Bugel type fluke with a mansons shank would be even simpler to build. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > supreme. > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2106&catid=member&imageuser=502 > > dead simple :) > > seer > | 16186|16164|2008-01-09 22:10:57|John Langelo|Re: Brent's Water Maker|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Brent, getting ready to get the pieces together for my water maker. > > how is yours getting along? and do you still recommend that General > > TT9111 pump. Any new suggestions beyond what you have in the book? > > (finally got my book back :) hehehe > > > > seer > > > Mine works fine. To avoid getting surface bubbles in , you have to go > as deep as possible for the intake. Wolf suggested that I make a 6 > inch long expansion tank out of 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe to > cushion the hydrostatic shock caused by bubbles in the system, and > mount it just before the high pressure hose goes into the membrane > housing. This is my current project. > Brent > Brent: How often do you use your water maker? And how long can you let a water maker sit with out pickling the membrane? John| 16187|15554|2008-01-09 22:39:48|phil|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|helo WOULD the COST of building these boats in ALIMINIUM COST less THAN STEEL ----- Original Message ----- From: jonathanswef To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Suppliers UK Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it and him driving away... Jonathan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 8:57 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16188|16188|2008-01-09 23:26:14|cptcrunch100|What does this mean|Complete yes, but don't drop your hull down off the support blocks yet until tranverse webs are installed and keels are fully welded in! By: northcanoe Brent My memory has gone foggy. Does your book cover what this statement means? Also in your design for the 31 or 36 what is the composition of your water tank, all steel? I think I need a new book. Unfortunatly I'm in Alberta these days. do you mail out Christophe P.s. I'm plotting major changes| 16189|16189|2008-01-10 00:24:48|ndr_jenna|DOGGY-Style-Sex-in Turkse-Chick|DOGGY-Style-Sex-in Turkse-Chick [DOGGY-Style-Sex-inTurkse-Chick.flv] Play Download Horney-Arab_Couple-Enjoying-Sex-in-Car [Horney-ArabCouple-enjoying-Sex-in-Car.flv] Play Download Here More Desi Adult Videos ZONE -Daily Updates EARN UNLIMITED - 100% FREE FILE HOSTING !! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16190|15554|2008-01-10 01:48:49|Aaron Williams|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Not unless you have a factory direct wholesale insider trading connection. then you have to come up with the shop to build it in and an aluminum welder thats willing to work cheap. Maybe the resale value might be worth it. Aaron phil wrote: helo WOULD the COST of building these boats in ALIMINIUM COST less THAN STEEL ----- Original Message ----- From: jonathanswef To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Suppliers UK Try these people www.johntainton.co.uk they decoil to order. They supplied my 6m x 2m lengths ok. I think the max length is limited to the lorry buck. Do think how you are going to get that steel off the lorry when it turns up. We are not so connected to the pioneering spirit that the driver will look kindly at you putting a chain on it and him driving away... Jonathan. ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/07 8:57 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16191|16172|2008-01-10 02:26:09|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > On boxing day we had an anchor discussion ,and Francine said the > simple way to stop the Rocna rcok from jamming into a rocna and > refusing to leave was to tack a piece of flatbar from the shank to the > centre of the flukes.If it is a bit back from the tip it shouldn't > affect holding power. Warants some experimenting. > Brent > That sounds like a helluva Idea.:) I might try that:) Since I'm going to drag mine around the pasture with the dozer for a test would be easy to do a before and after and see if it interfered with holding power. Thanks Brent. seer| 16192|16172|2008-01-10 02:31:44|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor|Probably make it easier to fit on the bow roller too. Another good thought. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I suspect the kink in the flukes doesn't make much difference , and a > flat Bugel type fluke with a mansons shank would be even simpler to > build. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > > supreme. > > > > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2106&catid=member&imageuser=502 > > > > dead simple :) > > > > seer > > > | 16193|15554|2008-01-10 12:01:58|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Steel Suppliers UK|Hi All A reasonably standard flatback with Hi-ab(onboard hydraulic crane) should manage 30-35ft - possibly with a small overhang.Extendable Artic trailers are available if you need to go for longer lengths but you are then back to the offloading problem.Forktrucks are easy enough to hire though cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16194|16172|2008-01-10 15:26:44|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor|Don't ever leave a boat on a stainless anchor and galv chain for too long . The stainless will eat the galv chain with electrolysis in a matter of months. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Probably make it easier to fit on the bow roller too. Another good > thought. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I suspect the kink in the flukes doesn't make much difference , and a > > flat Bugel type fluke with a mansons shank would be even simpler to > > build. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Turns out one of the guys on another board decided to do the same > > > thing as me, he used stainless and here is his version of a manson > > > supreme. > > > > > > > > > http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=2106&catid=member&imageuser=502 > > > > > > dead simple :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 16195|16164|2008-01-10 15:30:16|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Water Maker|I've only fired it up every six months in BC to keep it from gumming up. You should never leave it unpickeled for more than a week at most. 4 days max is better . Pickled , you should fire it up, flush it, then repickle it every six months. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Langelo" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Brent, getting ready to get the pieces together for my water > maker. > > > how is yours getting along? and do you still recommend that > General > > > TT9111 pump. Any new suggestions beyond what you have in the book? > > > (finally got my book back :) hehehe > > > > > > seer > > > > > Mine works fine. To avoid getting surface bubbles in , you have to > go > > as deep as possible for the intake. Wolf suggested that I make a 6 > > inch long expansion tank out of 2 inch sch 40 stainless pipe to > > cushion the hydrostatic shock caused by bubbles in the system, and > > mount it just before the high pressure hose goes into the membrane > > housing. This is my current project. > > Brent > > > Brent: How often do you use your water maker? And how long can you > let a water maker sit with out pickling the membrane? > > John > | 16196|16172|2008-01-10 22:33:02|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Don't ever leave a boat on a stainless anchor and galv chain for too > long . The stainless will eat the galv chain with electrolysis in a > matter of months. > Brent > > I'm not going to fool with a stainless anchor for several reasons, not the least of which is that hanging out there on the bow in poorer neighborhoods it just SCREAMS "STEAL ME" :) hehehe One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a heavy pendant for catenary effect?| 16197|16197|2008-01-10 22:52:43|girljablog|Sexy Models and Beauty Queens looking for Sugar Daddy!|Yahoo! Groups - Date a sugar daddy or sugar baby. Would you like to date a sugar daddy or sugar baby? Check out this club, join for FREE: http://sexyrsagirl.googlepages.com/sexysugarclub.htm| 16198|16172|2008-01-10 22:55:21|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homemade Anchor|On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:33:01AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Don't ever leave a boat on a stainless anchor and galv chain for too > > long . The stainless will eat the galv chain with electrolysis in a > > matter of months. > > Brent > > > > > > I'm not going to fool with a stainless anchor for several reasons, not > the least of which is that hanging out there on the bow in poorer > neighborhoods it just SCREAMS "STEAL ME" :) hehehe > > One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless > is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis > problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the > norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor > (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a > heavy pendant for catenary effect? In my opinion, stainless is _not_ the way to go for anchors even if you have infinite dollars. Aside from the problems cited by Brent, stainless is also more flexible than mild - I've bent 3/16" SS plate that was used as a roller-furling bracket by hand in order to get off a frozen swivel, something I wouldn't have even considered if it was plain steel. By the same token, if I was forced to have an SS anchor, I'd want it to be built with least 20% heavier scantlings than an equivalent one of mild steel. There are plenty of things that stainless is good for, but for point loading, stiffness, and reliability under tension/torque, I'll take mild over it any day. Especially that last: stainless is treacherous as hell, whereas mild will warn you well before giving way (usually.) Again, this is just personal experience and preference; YMMV. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16199|16172|2008-01-10 23:00:46|J Fisher|Re: Homemade Anchor|For a galvanic cell, you need an electrolyte. Salt water provides this, but if it isnt wet or submersed, you don't get cell. If you look at a chart of galvanic potentials, the more negative is the anode and will give up material before the cathode, the more positive metal. That is why boats have zinc's. They are more negative and corrode faster than the steel. Same goes for galvanizing steel or flame sprayed zinc, the zinc is corroded first, then once it is gone then the steel will corrode. Aluminum will work as well, but will corrode at a slower rate, due to less potential. http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/galv_series.htm John --- > One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a heavy pendant for catenary effect? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16200|16172|2008-01-11 00:12:42|Aaron Williams|Zinks|Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? J Fisher wrote: For a galvanic cell, you need an electrolyte. Salt water provides this, but if it isnt wet or submersed, you don't get cell. If you look at a chart of galvanic potentials, the more negative is the anode and will give up material before the cathode, the more positive metal. That is why boats have zinc's. They are more negative and corrode faster than the steel. Same goes for galvanizing steel or flame sprayed zinc, the zinc is corroded first, then once it is gone then the steel will corrode. Aluminum will work as well, but will corrode at a slower rate, due to less potential. http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/galv_series.htm John --- > One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a heavy pendant for catenary effect? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16201|16201|2008-01-11 02:00:49|Aaron|Galvanic corrosion|How do you protect the carbon steel where the Stainless Steel is welded to it? Places like the bull rails and through hull fittings, or the SS plates on the bottom of the twin Keels. What about the SS plate where the engine exhaust exits the transom to hot for paint ? Aaron| 16202|16172|2008-01-11 06:42:04|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Homemade Anchor|You could say the same about high tensile steel,up to a point.When I had a small machining business we used mild steel threaded rod for holding down bolts in preference to HT although it probably cost more overall in replacement costs.However it's pretty obvious when mild steel is getting worn out so you scrap it at that stage.If HT is starting to develop fatigue cracks,it can fail catastrophically with sometimes interesting results - If you're cutting a 3.5"x0.5" step in steel at 8" per minute it's better if things stay in place cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16203|16201|2008-01-11 10:11:02|mauro gonzaga|Re: Galvanic corrosion|In constructing my steel boat I avoided to weld below waterline, any stainless steel. only screwed on with gasket in between. No problem. However zinc anodes were distributed in way. Rudder pintles are welded to steel rudder but no corrosion noted in way, but weld is well painted. Mauro. Aaron wrote: How do you protect the carbon steel where the Stainless Steel is welded to it? Places like the bull rails and through hull fittings, or the SS plates on the bottom of the twin Keels. What about the SS plate where the engine exhaust exits the transom to hot for paint ? Aaron --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16204|16172|2008-01-11 12:25:44|sae140|Re: Zinks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. Colin| 16205|16172|2008-01-11 14:36:54|brentswain38|Re: Zinks|I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on steel hulls. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > > > > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The > aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an > insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help > the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's > clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are > much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. > > Colin > | 16206|16201|2008-01-11 14:42:05|brentswain38|Re: Galvanic corrosion|I've been welding stainless thru hulls to mild steel below the waterline for over 30 years . No problem with a huge amount of steel welded to a a tiny amount of stainless. There is a bit more fizzling around the thru hulls , but not enough to cause any problems. Far less trouble than the alternatives. If it were a huge amount of stainless welded to a tiny amount of mild steel there would be major problems. Bolted on fittings would be far more potential trouble. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga wrote: > > In constructing my steel boat I avoided to weld below waterline, any stainless steel. only screwed on with gasket in between. No problem. However zinc anodes were distributed in way. Rudder pintles are welded to steel rudder but no corrosion noted in way, but weld is well painted. Mauro. > > Aaron wrote: > > How do you protect the carbon steel where the Stainless Steel is welded > to it? Places like the bull rails and through hull fittings, or the SS > plates on the bottom of the twin Keels. What about the SS plate where > the engine exhaust exits the transom to hot for paint ? > Aaron > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16207|16172|2008-01-11 14:45:44|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor|Stainles cable on a galv anchor is definitly harder on the Galvanizing. It doesn't have the same life expectancy . Ditto with galv shackles. I've heard theft of anchors of the bow roller is becomming a major problem in New Zealand. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Don't ever leave a boat on a stainless anchor and galv chain for too > > long . The stainless will eat the galv chain with electrolysis in a > > matter of months. > > Brent > > > > > > I'm not going to fool with a stainless anchor for several reasons, not > the least of which is that hanging out there on the bow in poorer > neighborhoods it just SCREAMS "STEAL ME" :) hehehe > > One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless > is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis > problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the > norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor > (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a > heavy pendant for catenary effect? > | 16208|16172|2008-01-11 15:01:10|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor|People who prefer to tie up in marinas rarely get their anchors wet because working to pay the moorage doesn't allow them much time to get their anchors wet. I haven't paid to tie to a dock in 23 years , so my anchor stays wet 365 days a year. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > For a galvanic cell, you need an electrolyte. Salt water provides this, but > if it isnt wet or submersed, you don't get cell. If you look at a chart of > galvanic potentials, the more negative is the anode and will give up > material before the cathode, the more positive metal. That is why boats > have zinc's. They are more negative and corrode faster than the steel. > Same goes for galvanizing steel or flame sprayed zinc, the zinc is corroded > first, then once it is gone then the steel will corrode. Aluminum will work > as well, but will corrode at a slower rate, due to less potential. > > http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/galv_series.htm > > John > > --- > > > > One question tho, stainless cable vs. galvanized..seems like stainless > is the way to go, but then you're getting the same electrolysis > problem on the other end of the same galvanized chain which is the > norm leading to the anchor. Should I be thinking stainless anchor > (unpolished heheh) going direct to stainless cable and then use a > heavy pendant for catenary effect? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16209|16172|2008-01-11 15:19:50|J Fisher|Re: Zinks|http://www.easternanode.nf.ca/ Didn't read the whole site, but seems to have some good info. John -------Original Message------- From: Aaron Williams Date: 1/10/2008 10:12:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Zinks Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16210|16172|2008-01-11 19:48:28|sae140|Re: Zinks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > > > > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The > aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an > insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help > the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's > clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are > much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. > > Colin > Remember now - it's trace amounts of Indium together with a few percent of Zinc - balance being Aluminium. I also kinda remember that trials were conducted with traces of Manganese and Magnesium. Colin| 16211|16172|2008-01-11 22:38:20|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > >Aside from the problems cited by Brent, stainless > is also more flexible than mild - I've bent 3/16" SS plate that was used > as a roller-furling bracket by hand in order to get off a frozen swivel, > something I wouldn't have even considered if it was plain steel. > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > LOL, hell Ben, with those meathooks you call hands, you could probably put a pretty good bend in Chuck Norris! heheheh In any event, has anyone here seen the northstar CQR and Bruce copies? Man, that's a lot better pricing on what looks to be pretty nice sized and built anchors. http://www.northstar-marinesupplies.com/ seer| 16212|16172|2008-01-12 01:39:27|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Anchor/anchor_study.htm What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the spade/rocna/manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll... Brent is right to have gone to a big fluked fortress type for the ultimate storm type anchor. I was surprised at the poor showing of the Bruce as to ultimate holding power, but excellent setting...soo, dunno..think maybe the new boys on the block are a big improvement over the bruce and plow, but the fortress type is going to win overall, and at substantially less weight. Or so it seems to me. soo moral of the story, get whatever anchor you want but have a big danforth/fortress type in the locker for when you KNOW its going to get BAAAAD!!! :) seer| 16213|16172|2008-01-12 08:08:41|mauro gonzaga|Re: Zinks|Sacrifiial anodes for aluminum are made of magnesium. Mauro sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. Colin --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16214|16172|2008-01-12 08:16:34|mauro gonzaga|Re: Zinks|Aluminum is simply less efective than zinc. Mauro brentswain38 wrote: I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on steel hulls. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > > > > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The > aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an > insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help > the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's > clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are > much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. > > Colin > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16215|16172|2008-01-12 08:39:16|Bill Jaine|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|For my money the secret of a great holding anchor is chain, more chain and heavier chain. get enough chain and you can put a popsicle on the end Bill seeratlas wrote: > > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/ Anchor/anchor_ study.htm > > > What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the > spade/rocna/ manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll. .. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16216|16172|2008-01-12 11:34:23|Tom|Re: Zinks|Interesting, Aluminum might be an option on my 26 instead of zink. I have some 3-1/2" solid stock aluminum, maybee cut 1/2" pieces off and weld bolt heads direct to keel, skeg and just bolt them on. wonder what bolt type would be best for that stenario 304-316 stainless or mild steel? and would you have the aluminum bolt direct to studs or run flat strip off studs with aluminum bolted to that? I have read a lot of stories about problems of paint coming off around zinks for no aparent reason mabee aluminum would be an option if you did have that problem. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinks > I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on > steel hulls. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: >> > >> > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? >> > >> >> Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The >> aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an >> insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help >> the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's >> clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are >> much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. >> >> Colin >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16217|16217|2008-01-12 11:48:10|Tom|through hull|Hello all I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16218|16172|2008-01-12 13:29:29|Aaron Williams|Re: Zinks|I have started studying for a new career in corrosion inspection and one of the charts I have for galvanic series of metals exposed to sea water puts 2024 aluminum just under mild steel. With Steel being the Cathode and the aluminum being the anode. The interesting part was with the two metals there is less electrical current generated in seawater. The Zinc is almost at the bottom of the list in between other grades of aluminum and magnesium. 316 and 304 stainless is above as expected, creating a current with the steel becoming the anode. The aluminum would last longer compared to zinc having the lower current created in the electrolyte (seawater),but it would still be sacrificing itself. The list I have in order is 2024,cadmium, 6053, 1100 series aluminum, Zinc,Magnesium alloys. 5000 series aluminum is not listed. Would it be that as aluminum oxidizes it is protecting the steel not itself. Aaron Tom wrote: Interesting, Aluminum might be an option on my 26 instead of zink. I have some 3-1/2" solid stock aluminum, maybee cut 1/2" pieces off and weld bolt heads direct to keel, skeg and just bolt them on. wonder what bolt type would be best for that stenario 304-316 stainless or mild steel? and would you have the aluminum bolt direct to studs or run flat strip off studs with aluminum bolted to that? I have read a lot of stories about problems of paint coming off around zinks for no aparent reason mabee aluminum would be an option if you did have that problem. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinks > I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on > steel hulls. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: >> > >> > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? >> > >> >> Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The >> aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an >> insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help >> the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's >> clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are >> much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. >> >> Colin >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16219|16217|2008-01-12 13:45:33|mauro gonzaga|Re: through hull|In my steel boat, through hull in stainless steel: mushrum outside, screwed and washer inside with silicone sealant between mushrum and hull and between washer and hull inside worked very well, still no damage after 10 years. Mauro Tom wrote: Hello all I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16220|16217|2008-01-12 13:49:55|mauro gonzaga|Re: through hull|Forgot to write: 304 is good as well. mauro gonzaga wrote: In my steel boat, through hull in stainless steel: mushrum outside, screwed and washer inside with silicone sealant between mushrum and hull and between washer and hull inside worked very well, still no damage after 10 years. Mauro Tom wrote: Hello all I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16221|16172|2008-01-12 14:00:02|mark hamill|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|> http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Anchor/anchor_study.htm One family that did a nine year circumanavigation used a 60 lb. Danforth on their 32 foot boat and never had one problem in all types of weather. They felt the larger anchor was the key to their anchoring safety. The kids did all the anchoring work. Mark| 16222|16172|2008-01-12 15:06:20|seeratlas|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|well, I don't think anyone can argue with you there. the problem is all that chain is even more weight in the bow of the boat, than it is on the bottom, something like 20 percent or so if I remember (which I probably don't). Plus, I'm going for deep water capability, so will be running cable on a hydraulic winch, which saves me a lot of room, a lot of smelly stuff in the chain locker, and a lot of weight, some of which I can then dedicate towards a bigger anchor. Took a look at the Buegel Brent mentioned, and that has to be the simplest one yet, in fact, I suspect the rocna and manson are copies of it and not the other way around. Seems like it might have been the first one. Anyway, looks to me like all you need is a piece of say 1/2" plate big enough to cut the blade out of with a plasma cutter, then cut out the shank, then weld those two together, and finally bend a piece of round up and over and weld that; cut the hole for the shackle and put a downward cutting chisel point with some sharpenss on the sides to cut weeds and you're pretty much done. Just dress with a grinder and galvanize. Doesn't look like there's any bend at all to the flukes. Oh, and a small ring at the butt end for a recovery line. Am I missing something here? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > For my money the secret of a great holding anchor is chain, more chain > and heavier chain. > get enough chain and you can put a popsicle on the end > Bill > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/ Anchor/anchor_ study.htm > > > > > > What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the > > spade/rocna/ manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll. .. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16223|16172|2008-01-12 17:00:54|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|Bugels use very heavy plate, 5/8thy to 3/4 or thicker. Using the shape of shank the same as a rocna lets it get deeper. This can be made removeable as can the roll bar, for spares. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > well, I don't think anyone can argue with you there. the problem is > all that chain is even more weight in the bow of the boat, than it is > on the bottom, something like 20 percent or so if I remember (which I > probably don't). Plus, I'm going for deep water capability, so will > be running cable on a hydraulic winch, which saves me a lot of room, a > lot of smelly stuff in the chain locker, and a lot of weight, some of > which I can then dedicate towards a bigger anchor. > > Took a look at the Buegel Brent mentioned, and that has to be the > simplest one yet, in fact, I suspect the rocna and manson are copies > of it and not the other way around. Seems like it might have been the > first one. Anyway, looks to me like all you need is a piece of say > 1/2" plate big enough to cut the blade out of with a plasma cutter, > then cut out the shank, then weld those two together, and finally bend > a piece of round up and over and weld that; cut the hole for the > shackle and put a downward cutting chisel point with some sharpenss on > the sides to cut weeds and you're pretty much done. Just dress with a > grinder and galvanize. Doesn't look like there's any bend at all to > the flukes. Oh, and a small ring at the butt end for a recovery line. > > Am I missing something here? > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > > > For my money the secret of a great holding anchor is chain, more chain > > and heavier chain. > > get enough chain and you can put a popsicle on the end > > Bill > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/ Anchor/anchor_ study.htm > > > > > > > > > What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the > > > spade/rocna/ manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll. .. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16224|16172|2008-01-12 18:14:37|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|I use a 55 lb delta on my boat. I can't feel the diffference between that and having a 35 pounder when I use the winch. Danforths can be greatly improved using the suggestions in my book. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > > > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Anchor/anchor_study.htm > One family that did a nine year circumanavigation used a 60 lb. > Danforth on their 32 foot boat and never had one problem in all types > of weather. They felt the larger anchor was the key to their anchoring > safety. The kids did all the anchoring work. > Mark > | 16225|16172|2008-01-12 18:17:56|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|Given that a Bruce can only go down a foot or less before the flukes become horizontal, it's poor ultimate holding power should surprise no one. Tests have shown that for a given weight a Bruce has roughly half the holding power of a danforth or plow. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Anchor/anchor_study.htm > > What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the > spade/rocna/manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll... > > Brent is right to have gone to a big fluked fortress type for the > ultimate storm type anchor. I was surprised at the poor showing of > the Bruce as to ultimate holding power, but excellent setting...soo, > dunno..think maybe the new boys on the block are a big improvement > over the bruce and plow, but the fortress type is going to win > overall, and at substantially less weight. Or so it seems to me. soo > moral of the story, get whatever anchor you want but have a big > danforth/fortress type in the locker for when you KNOW its going to > get BAAAAD!!! :) > > seer > | 16226|16172|2008-01-12 18:26:19|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|I've dragged 200 feet of chain across the sandy parking lot and down the dock with very little resistance.You can drag a lot of heavy chain down a beach with little resistance. It is a naive myth that chain , however much ,has any real holding power. Only a good anchor will do that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > For my money the secret of a great holding anchor is chain, more chain > and heavier chain. > get enough chain and you can put a popsicle on the end > Bill > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/ Anchor/anchor_ study.htm > > > > > > What I conclude from this pretty good test (prior to the > > spade/rocna/ manson types coming on the scene) is that...drumroll. .. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16227|16172|2008-01-12 18:29:21|brentswain38|Re: Zinks|Try it , with a few zincs as backup.Nothing to lose I wouldn't rely on bolts of any kind for zinc or aluminium. Weld a couple of mild steel straps to one side with mig aluminium, them weld the other side on to guarantee a good comnnection, then weld the steel straps to the hull. Let us know how it works out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Interesting, Aluminum might be an option on my 26 instead of zink. I have > some 3-1/2" solid stock aluminum, maybee cut 1/2" pieces off and weld bolt > heads direct to keel, skeg and just bolt them on. wonder what bolt type > would be best for that stenario 304-316 stainless or mild steel? and would > you have the aluminum bolt direct to studs or run flat strip off studs with > aluminum bolted to that? > I have read a lot of stories about problems of paint coming off around > zinks for no aparent reason mabee aluminum would be an option if you did > have that problem. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:36 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinks > > > > I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on > > steel hulls. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > >> > > >> > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > >> > > >> > >> Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The > >> aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an > >> insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help > >> the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's > >> clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are > >> much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. > >> > >> Colin > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 16228|16217|2008-01-12 18:31:24|brentswain38|Re: through hull|Tom What size? Email me your postal address again. Pulp mills here use exclusively 316. Scpayards are full of the stuff. I'd be leery of 304 below the waterline. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello all > I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16229|16217|2008-01-12 19:52:34|peter_d_wiley|Re: through hull|Agreed. I don't see that it's a problem getting the stuff tho. http://www.plumbingsupply.com/stainles.html has 304 nipples and 316 ball valves. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6KV39 - these guys have a huge range of stuff. If you buy a 316 pipe nipple from an industrial supplier, it's long odds you *will* get what you order, because the industrial people will sue, and the damages would be colossal. Buy one of these and cut it in half. Presto, 2 threaded thru-hulls. If Brent can supply one used, cheaper, great. I've been collecting this stuff for a while in various sizes for the day when I need it. 316 ball valves, too. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Tom > What size? Email me your postal address again. Pulp mills here use > exclusively 316. Scpayards are full of the stuff. I'd be leery of 304 > below the waterline. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello all > > I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 > grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to > get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16230|16201|2008-01-12 19:56:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: Galvanic corrosion|I've had 316 s/steel bolts into carbon steel threaded connections in sea chests on our icebreaker. The sea chests have been there for nearly 20 years. The threads are just getting to the point where we'd consider putting in a helicoil or similar. I personally wouldn't worry about the potential differences. A welded joint using E309 electrodes is going to be a lot better than a bolted joint IMO. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've been welding stainless thru hulls to mild steel below the > waterline for over 30 years . No problem with a huge amount of steel > welded to a a tiny amount of stainless. There is a bit more fizzling > around the thru hulls , but not enough to cause any problems. Far less > trouble than the alternatives. If it were a huge amount of stainless > welded to a tiny amount of mild steel there would be major problems. > Bolted on fittings would be far more potential trouble. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, mauro gonzaga > wrote: > > > > In constructing my steel boat I avoided to weld below waterline, any > stainless steel. only screwed on with gasket in between. No problem. > However zinc anodes were distributed in way. Rudder pintles are welded > to steel rudder but no corrosion noted in way, but weld is well > painted. Mauro. > > > > Aaron wrote: > > > > How do you protect the carbon steel where the Stainless Steel is welded > > to it? Places like the bull rails and through hull fittings, or the SS > > plates on the bottom of the twin Keels. What about the SS plate where > > the engine exhaust exits the transom to hot for paint ? > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16231|16172|2008-01-12 19:57:23|peter_d_wiley|Re: Zinks|Not anyone I've ever come across. They all use zinc. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I've heard that Aussies commonly use aluminium instead of zinc on > steel hulls. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any info on using aluminum annodes on a steel hull? > > > > > > > Only that you can't use straight aluminium as a sacrificial anode. The > > aluminium oxide which is formed on it's surface then acts as an > > insulator. There IS something that can be added to the ally to help > > the oxide dissolve away (I've forgotten what it is ...), but that's > > clever metallurgical stuff. A great pity - 'cause chunks of ally are > > much easier and cheaper to source than zinc. > > > > Colin > > > | 16232|16217|2008-01-12 21:19:42|Tom|Re: through hull|Thanks PDW Dang they are proud of those 316 ball valves, Im not plan'in on using 316 ball valve, figured to run through hull up just above water line under sink and then use sch80 plastic ball valve with a 1" plastic hose barb fitting atop that. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "peter_d_wiley" To: Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: through hull > > Agreed. I don't see that it's a problem getting the stuff tho. > > http://www.plumbingsupply.com/stainles.html has 304 nipples and 316 > ball valves. > > http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6KV39 - these guys have a huge > range of stuff. > > If you buy a 316 pipe nipple from an industrial supplier, it's long > odds you *will* get what you order, because the industrial people will > sue, and the damages would be colossal. > > Buy one of these and cut it in half. Presto, 2 threaded thru-hulls. If > Brent can supply one used, cheaper, great. I've been collecting this > stuff for a while in various sizes for the day when I need it. 316 > ball valves, too. > > PDW > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> Tom >> What size? Email me your postal address again. Pulp mills here use >> exclusively 316. Scpayards are full of the stuff. I'd be leery of 304 >> below the waterline. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> > >> > Hello all >> > I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 >> grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to >> get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. >> > Tom >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16233|16233|2008-01-12 23:20:28|kingsknight4life|HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Hi everyone. Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone missing from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. This occured sometime in the last week, it was last seen approximately 7 day ago around the end of the first week of Jan.08 DESCRIPTION: 36 ft. bilge keeler. Color is pre-primed, green steel plate and is rusty.(mostly decks and cabin tops) Stainless steel stanchions and lifelines. Holes for windows and portlights cut out. Aluminum door and front hatch. Fully detailed, including boarding ladder, cleats, bollards etc. Anchor winch included. Pilothouse style is "Evans" not "Brents". ie. slope is forward Pictures will be posted shortly in the pics. section. For now undetailed pis of our boat can be seen in the pics. section under the heading" Paul's boat" As you can imagine both Bev and I are totally stressed out right now having invested lots of time, money and effort into our boat. ANY info. now matter how insignificant would be VERY,appreciated. Can everyone on Vancuver Island please keep an eye out for our boat and please don't hesitate to contact me day or night with ANY leads. To all others not on "the Island" please help us keep a watch on Craig's list, Yachtworld, BoatJournal etc. for our hull. Thankyou, Rowland and Bev. We can be contacted here on this board or at either of the following e- mail addresses wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom or kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com. All information will be kept in the strictest of confidence. We just want our boat back safe and sound. You can also e-mail me and I will give you my number if you would rather speak in person.| 16234|16233|2008-01-13 00:09:27|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi everyone. > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone missing > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. > > Pictures are posted shortly in the pics. section under the > heading "Bev & Rowland's Hull" > > As you can imagine both Bev and I are totally stressed out right now > having invested lots of time, money and effort into our boat. ANY info. > now matter how insignificant would be VERY,appreciated. Can everyone on > Vancuver Island please keep an eye out for our boat and please don't > hesitate to contact me day or night with ANY leads. > > To all others not on "the Island" please help us keep a watch on > Craig's list, Yachtworld, BoatJournal etc. for our hull. > > Thankyou, > Rowland and Bev. > > We can be contacted here on this board or at either of the following e- > mail addresses wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom or > kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com. > All information will be kept in the strictest of confidence. We just > want our boat back safe and sound. You can also e-mail me and I will > give you my number if you would rather speak in person. > | 16235|16172|2008-01-13 10:22:21|Bill Jaine|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|Ah yes......but the chain will impact significantly on the catenary this is where the gain comes from. at least IMHO Bill brentswain38 wrote: > > I've dragged 200 feet of chain across the sandy parking lot and down > the dock with very little resistance.You can drag a lot of heavy > chain down a beach with little resistance. It is a naive myth that > chain , however much ,has any real holding power. Only a good anchor > will do that. > Brent > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16236|16236|2008-01-13 14:56:21|Alex Christie|Re: stolen hull|It should be noted, the Evan style pilot house windows slope AFT, so keep an eye out for that. Rowland said sloping forward, but I think he meant swept-back, as in the modern style seen on most boats. How do you move and hide a 36 foot boat without anyone seeing you move it? You need a crane and a lowbed to move a boat like this. Anyone in Duncan area involved in taking in scrap metal should be alerted fully to this in case someone tries to fence the material. Alex > ________________________________________________________________________ > > 5a. HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!! > Posted by: "kingsknight4life" wildcatbjj@... kingsknight4life > Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:20 pm ((PST)) > > Hi everyone. > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone missing > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. This occured sometime > in the last week, it was last seen approximately 7 day ago around the > end of the first week of Jan.08 > > DESCRIPTION: > 36 ft. bilge keeler. > Color is pre-primed, green steel plate and is rusty.(mostly decks and > cabin tops) > Stainless steel stanchions and lifelines. > Holes for windows and portlights cut out. > Aluminum door and front hatch. > Fully detailed, including boarding ladder, cleats, bollards etc. > Anchor winch included. > Pilothouse style is "Evans" not "Brents". ie. slope is forward > > Pictures will be posted shortly in the pics. section. For now > undetailed pis of our boat can be seen in the pics. section under the > heading" Paul's boat" > > As you can imagine both Bev and I are totally stressed out right now > having invested lots of time, money and effort into our boat. ANY info. > now matter how insignificant would be VERY,appreciated. Can everyone on > Vancuver Island please keep an eye out for our boat and please don't > hesitate to contact me day or night with ANY leads. > > To all others not on "the Island" please help us keep a watch on > Craig's list, Yachtworld, BoatJournal etc. for our hull. > > Thankyou, > Rowland and Bev. > > We can be contacted here on this board or at either of the following e- > mail addresses wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom or > kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com. > All information will be kept in the strictest of confidence. We just > want our boat back safe and sound. You can also e-mail me and I will > give you my number if you would rather speak in person. > > > > > Messages in this topic (2) > ________________________________________________________________________ > > 5b. Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!! > Posted by: "kingsknight4life" wildcatbjj@... kingsknight4life > Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:09 pm ((PST)) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: >> >> Hi everyone. >> >> Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone > missing >> from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. >> >> Pictures are posted shortly in the pics. section under the >> heading "Bev & Rowland's Hull" >> >> As you can imagine both Bev and I are totally stressed out right > now >> having invested lots of time, money and effort into our boat. ANY > info. >> now matter how insignificant would be VERY,appreciated. Can > everyone on >> Vancuver Island please keep an eye out for our boat and please > don't >> hesitate to contact me day or night with ANY leads. >> >> To all others not on "the Island" please help us keep a watch on >> Craig's list, Yachtworld, BoatJournal etc. for our hull. >> >> Thankyou, >> Rowland and Bev. >> >> We can be contacted here on this board or at either of the > following e- >> mail addresses wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom or >> kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com. >> All information will be kept in the strictest of confidence. We > just >> want our boat back safe and sound. You can also e-mail me and I > will >> give you my number if you would rather speak in person. >> > > > > > Messages in this topic (2) > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1222 - Release Date: > 13/01/2008 12:23 PM > > | 16237|16172|2008-01-13 20:04:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homemade Anchor|On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 03:38:19AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > >Aside from the problems cited by Brent, stainless > > is also more flexible than mild - I've bent 3/16" SS plate that was used > > as a roller-furling bracket by hand in order to get off a frozen swivel, > > something I wouldn't have even considered if it was plain steel. > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > LOL, hell Ben, with those meathooks you call hands, you could > probably put a pretty good bend in Chuck Norris! heheheh [grin] I don't think so. I took a class from old Chuck back in the '70s, and he'd be a tough one to bend. > In any event, has anyone here seen the northstar CQR and Bruce copies? > Man, that's a lot better pricing on what looks to be pretty nice sized > and built anchors. > > http://www.northstar-marinesupplies.com/ I bought one of their CQRs last year. Good price, well made, fast and inexpensive shipping; I was pretty pleased all the way around. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16238|16172|2008-01-13 20:06:55|Ben Okopnik|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 08:06:18PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > well, I don't think anyone can argue with you there. the problem is > all that chain is even more weight in the bow of the boat, than it is > on the bottom, something like 20 percent or so if I remember (which I > probably don't). Plus, I'm going for deep water capability, so will > be running cable on a hydraulic winch, which saves me a lot of room, a > lot of smelly stuff in the chain locker, and a lot of weight, some of > which I can then dedicate towards a bigger anchor. > > Took a look at the Buegel Brent mentioned, and that has to be the > simplest one yet, in fact, I suspect the rocna and manson are copies > of it and not the other way around. Seems like it might have been the > first one. Anyway, looks to me like all you need is a piece of say > 1/2" plate big enough to cut the blade out of with a plasma cutter, > then cut out the shank, then weld those two together, and finally bend > a piece of round up and over and weld that; cut the hole for the > shackle and put a downward cutting chisel point with some sharpenss on > the sides to cut weeds and you're pretty much done. Just dress with a > grinder and galvanize. Doesn't look like there's any bend at all to > the flukes. Oh, and a small ring at the butt end for a recovery line. > > Am I missing something here? Doesn't sound like it to me. Let me know when you get around to it; I'd be happy to split some expenses and build a couple. I've been using anchors as/instead of insurance for years, and they A) don't require yearly premiums and B) actually *do* something in bad weather. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16239|13189|2008-01-13 20:14:51|brian vezina|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Carl and Steve: To get rid of air bubbles when changing coolant. I saw the mechanic at Klassen diesel do this and I have done it myself twice. Is remove either the little allen screw at top of engine near the filler cap or remove the temperature sensor so air can come out and then plug the overflow hose with the tip of your finger to stop air, then put your mouth against the filler hole, creating a seal with your face (it works) and blow gently but steadely until some coolant comes out of hole where temp sensor was. (you will hear some gurgling in engine). Put more coolant in until full then blow again, you may have to do it 3 or 4 times and then all air bubbles are gone and no problems. The skeg by itself hold almost exactly 10 gallons on my bs36. --- Carl Anderson wrote: > My Isuzu (52 HP gross, 48 net) has a MURPHY > SWITCHGUAGE installed by > Klassen on the header tank (which is part of the > exhaust manifold). The > model I have monitors the coolant level in the > header tank. > > I have had the problem, as noted below, getting all > the air bubbles out > of the cooling system. What worked for me was > running the engine with > the thermostat removed for a while. > > As for cooling, when I ran without the thermostat, > the engine > temperature at 2000 RPM was just under 150 degrees F > (at 1000 RPM the > temp was down around 130 F). This was using the > BS36 skeg for cooling > and the location was inside the Gulf Islands, BC. > After getting all the > air out of the system and reinstalling the > thermostat the temp was the > "normal" 180 degree F. As I remember the cooling > system took around 12 > gallons of coolant to fill it. I'm using 1-1/4" > hose (1" sch 40 pipe > for the tank fittings) on the cooling system. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > Denis Buggy wrote: > > > > > > Paul you can use as a guess at least quadruple > your existing cooling > > arrangements by gallon measurement plus a LARGE > TRUCK TYPE high mounted > > header tank as you have no cooling fins or fan and > you must pay close > > attention to the thermostat as it is vital to have > your engine at > > working temp . we use an excellent US co here in > Ireland called MURPHY > > SWITCHGUAGE . this co supply a mechanical i.e. > capillary mercury type , > > temp warning gauge which has adjustable gold > plated contacts which will > > activate a common car relay which will activate a > car horn and has > > worked for us for the past 20 years without fault > on rear and mid > > mounted bus engines covering millions of miles in > that time . we have > > even moved a gauge from retiring buses into new . > you should use a used > > truck header tank these are often plastic and very > strong being flexible > > and often contain a low water float switch which > is an earth wire type > > and this is essential for a boat as out of sight > is out of mind . > > avoid sharp bends in your large pipes . > > 50 mm INSIDE DIAM a good size for pipes and hoses > and for matching up > > header tanks and water pipes and it will flow and > make sure you can vent > > air bubbles from the top of your engine to your > header tank , some > > thermostats have a pin hole to do this and watch > the waterpump we have > > had engines mainly DAF which needed the air > removed from the impeller of > > the waterpump to make the cooling work and > sometimes trapped air would > > travel the following day from the water-cooled > heat exchanger in the > > auto box and boil the engine again by removing > water from the waterpump > > impeller . there should be a death row for > overpaid engineers who never > > have to work on their designs . denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul J. Thompson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size of keel/engine > cooling tank > > > > Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling > tank for just 22hp > > that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) > > > > There presumably must be a formula for calculating > these things, but I > > have not found one yet. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > Deaf Sailor > > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but > my "coolant tank" > > > (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is > huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x > > > 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never > gets really boiling hot, > > > no matter what - even when the outside temps > are scorching. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping| 16240|16240|2008-01-13 21:19:01|Gary Prebble|Sailing the old Carib|I have never sailed in the Caribbean but can only imagine the incredible snorkling there...Exumas, BVI's, not to mention the sunny weather. Just wondering if there is much "sail swapping" going on. Example, I would be happy to sail folks for a week in the wilds of British Columbia in exchange for a week in the Carib. Anyone with experience along those or similar lines? Thanks.... Gary| 16241|16241|2008-01-14 03:50:29|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Needed For Document Controller|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: (MBP- 211-95) Document Controller 1. Minimum of 5 years in related field. 2. Education background: STM, D3 or Bachelor degree in related field. 3. Ability to use Auto CAD 2004 version and Database software. 4. Fluent in English. 5. Willing to be located in jobsite – Highland. 6. The contract will be per 6 month with possibility of extension for another 6 month depends on the performance and needs. An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the right candidate your application will be treated confidentially and only short listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your applications with CV and recent photo resumes@... . And quote the above listed reference number of position. Please visit our web www.mbp- skill.com| 16242|16233|2008-01-14 10:22:11|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone > missing > > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. > > >Just keeping this post on the first page.Thanks Rowlnd| 16243|16240|2008-01-14 11:34:58|Ben Okopnik|Re: Sailing the old Carib|On Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 02:18:56AM -0000, Gary Prebble wrote: > I have never sailed in the Caribbean but can only imagine the > incredible snorkling there...Exumas, BVI's, not to mention the sunny > weather. Just wondering if there is much "sail swapping" going on. > Example, I would be happy to sail folks for a week in the wilds of > British Columbia in exchange for a week in the Carib. Anyone with > experience along those or similar lines? I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that it couldn't happen. You could, say, send faxes to people like the St. Thomas Yacht Club, the one in Tortola (I don't recall the name), etc., and ask them to post these on their boards. Most people wouldn't want to deal with the flights, the customs hassles, etc., but who knows? Sailors tend to be an adventurous lot. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16244|16233|2008-01-14 15:08:32|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Rowland Phone all the boat movers in BC. Only a boat mover could move that hull. Have the cops check out the boat movers records. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone > > missing > > > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. > > > > >Just keeping this post on the first page.Thanks > Rowlnd > | 16245|16217|2008-01-14 15:12:50|brentswain38|Re: through hull|BC scrapyards have plenty of 316 ball valves for $2 per pound in Vancouver. I rarely got here so they are usually $3 or$4 per pound onthe Island. You have to close them then apply suction on one end to see if they are still good. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Thanks PDW > Dang they are proud of those 316 ball valves, Im not plan'in on using 316 > ball valve, figured to run through hull up just above water line under sink > and then use sch80 plastic ball valve with a 1" plastic hose barb fitting > atop that. > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter_d_wiley" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 4:52 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: through hull > > > > > > Agreed. I don't see that it's a problem getting the stuff tho. > > > > http://www.plumbingsupply.com/stainles.html has 304 nipples and 316 > > ball valves. > > > > http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6KV39 - these guys have a huge > > range of stuff. > > > > If you buy a 316 pipe nipple from an industrial supplier, it's long > > odds you *will* get what you order, because the industrial people will > > sue, and the damages would be colossal. > > > > Buy one of these and cut it in half. Presto, 2 threaded thru-hulls. If > > Brent can supply one used, cheaper, great. I've been collecting this > > stuff for a while in various sizes for the day when I need it. 316 > > ball valves, too. > > > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> Tom > >> What size? Email me your postal address again. Pulp mills here use > >> exclusively 316. Scpayards are full of the stuff. I'd be leery of 304 > >> below the waterline. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > > >> > Hello all > >> > I am going to run one through hull for the sink drain, can 304 > >> grade stainless be used for that ? If not I have to special order to > >> get 316 grade and hope thats what they send me. > >> > Tom > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 16246|13189|2008-01-14 15:19:16|brentswain38|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|My isuzu 2ab1 had a bleed nut on top which I once dropped in the bilge, letting a lot of cooland out , before I was able to find something to plug it with. Then I bought a stainless bleed nut at All Bay Marine in Sidney, which will let you bleed it without taking anything out. Just uses ascrewdriver. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, brian vezina wrote: > > Carl and Steve: To get rid of air bubbles when > changing coolant. I saw the mechanic at Klassen > diesel do this and I have done it myself twice. Is > remove either the little allen screw at top of engine > near the filler cap or remove the temperature sensor > so air can come out and then plug the overflow hose > with the tip of your finger to stop air, then put your > mouth against the filler hole, creating a seal with > your face (it works) and blow gently but steadely > until some coolant comes out of hole where temp sensor > was. (you will hear some gurgling in engine). Put more > coolant in until full then blow again, you may have to > do it 3 or 4 times and then all air bubbles are gone > and no problems. > The skeg by itself hold almost exactly 10 gallons > on my bs36. > > --- Carl Anderson wrote: > > > My Isuzu (52 HP gross, 48 net) has a MURPHY > > SWITCHGUAGE installed by > > Klassen on the header tank (which is part of the > > exhaust manifold). The > > model I have monitors the coolant level in the > > header tank. > > > > I have had the problem, as noted below, getting all > > the air bubbles out > > of the cooling system. What worked for me was > > running the engine with > > the thermostat removed for a while. > > > > As for cooling, when I ran without the thermostat, > > the engine > > temperature at 2000 RPM was just under 150 degrees F > > (at 1000 RPM the > > temp was down around 130 F). This was using the > > BS36 skeg for cooling > > and the location was inside the Gulf Islands, BC. > > After getting all the > > air out of the system and reinstalling the > > thermostat the temp was the > > "normal" 180 degree F. As I remember the cooling > > system took around 12 > > gallons of coolant to fill it. I'm using 1-1/4" > > hose (1" sch 40 pipe > > for the tank fittings) on the cooling system. > > > > Carl > > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > > > Denis Buggy wrote: > > > > > > > > > Paul you can use as a guess at least quadruple > > your existing cooling > > > arrangements by gallon measurement plus a LARGE > > TRUCK TYPE high mounted > > > header tank as you have no cooling fins or fan and > > you must pay close > > > attention to the thermostat as it is vital to have > > your engine at > > > working temp . we use an excellent US co here in > > Ireland called MURPHY > > > SWITCHGUAGE . this co supply a mechanical i.e. > > capillary mercury type , > > > temp warning gauge which has adjustable gold > > plated contacts which will > > > activate a common car relay which will activate a > > car horn and has > > > worked for us for the past 20 years without fault > > on rear and mid > > > mounted bus engines covering millions of miles in > > that time . we have > > > even moved a gauge from retiring buses into new . > > you should use a used > > > truck header tank these are often plastic and very > > strong being flexible > > > and often contain a low water float switch which > > is an earth wire type > > > and this is essential for a boat as out of sight > > is out of mind . > > > avoid sharp bends in your large pipes . > > > 50 mm INSIDE DIAM a good size for pipes and hoses > > and for matching up > > > header tanks and water pipes and it will flow and > > make sure you can vent > > > air bubbles from the top of your engine to your > > header tank , some > > > thermostats have a pin hole to do this and watch > > the waterpump we have > > > had engines mainly DAF which needed the air > > removed from the impeller of > > > the waterpump to make the cooling work and > > sometimes trapped air would > > > travel the following day from the water-cooled > > heat exchanger in the > > > auto box and boil the engine again by removing > > water from the waterpump > > > impeller . there should be a death row for > > overpaid engineers who never > > > have to work on their designs . denis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Paul J. Thompson > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 5:10 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size of keel/engine > > cooling tank > > > > > > Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling > > tank for just 22hp > > > that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) > > > > > > There presumably must be a formula for calculating > > these things, but I > > > have not found one yet. > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > > Deaf Sailor > > > > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is of much use, Paul, but > > my "coolant tank" > > > > (essentially a boxed-off part of my keel) is > > huge - about 5'L x 2.5'H x > > > > 2'W. The positive side of that is that it never > > gets really boiling hot, > > > > no matter what - even when the outside temps > > are scorching. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > | 16247|16172|2008-01-14 15:21:53|brentswain38|Re: Homemade Anchor Interesting Test|All the catenery in the world wont help if there is not a good anchor on the end. Popsickle stick wont do. I use a litre can of lead, about 30 lbs for catenery. I get to then lift the weight first, take it off, then lift the anchor, instead of having to lift both at once. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > Ah yes......but the chain will impact significantly on the catenary this > is where the gain comes from. > > > at least IMHO > > Bill > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > I've dragged 200 feet of chain across the sandy parking lot and down > > the dock with very little resistance.You can drag a lot of heavy > > chain down a beach with little resistance. It is a naive myth that > > chain , however much ,has any real holding power. Only a good anchor > > will do that. > > Brent > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16248|16233|2008-01-14 15:23:01|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Phone trucking companies and crane operators in the area.Ask the cops to do the same. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone. > > > > > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone > > missing > > > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. > > > > >Just keeping this post on the first page.Thanks > Rowlnd > | 16249|16172|2008-01-14 15:53:09|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Zinks|Aluminium is a pretty reactive metal.The only reason that you can use aluminium for anything is because the oxide layer formed in contact with the air is very tenacious and this prevents further corrosion of the metal - unlike steel where the oxide layer separates and allows further attack.I'm told that if you put some mercury onto aluminium this dissolves the oxide layer and then forms an amalgam which is very susceptible to oxidation cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16250|16233|2008-01-14 16:58:15|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > No need to keep looking. The RCMP have solved the case. Our boat has been reduced to scrap and has been crushed into little bits by Can-am recyling. Rowland| 16251|16233|2008-01-14 17:47:25|joeearsley|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must feel. Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. They can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition sitting there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let them scrap your dreams as well. Alaska joe| 16252|16233|2008-01-14 19:09:26|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must feel. > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. They > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition sitting > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let them > scrap your dreams as well. > > Alaska joe > Thanks Joe Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take to heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I will bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, then chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy who was to be protecting our interests actually, f^&!ed us!! Rowland| 16253|16233|2008-01-14 20:08:50|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > >If anyone is in the naimo area they might want to check out Can-am metals on the trans Canada hwy. I'd like to know if any parts of my boat are still there. Thanks Rowland| 16254|16233|2008-01-14 20:10:24|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Rowland Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo or two. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must feel. > > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. They > > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition sitting > > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let them > > scrap your dreams as well. > > > > Alaska joe > > > Thanks Joe > > Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take to > heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I will > bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, then > chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly > watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy who > was to be protecting our interests actually, 2621&!ed us!! > > Rowland > | 16255|16233|2008-01-14 20:23:41|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email > your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been > doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo > or two. > Brent > Brent The story idea sounds good. The boat was sold to Can am metals in Nanaimo and suppossedly chopped up. "They" apparently can't find any trace of it in their Nanaimo yard. Rowland| 16256|16233|2008-01-14 22:13:15|mickeyolaf|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Putting the story in the Sun might not be a good idea. It will give other metal thieves the idea to steal other metal boats. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rowland > Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email > your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been > doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo > or two. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must > feel. > > > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. > They > > > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition > sitting > > > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let > them > > > scrap your dreams as well. > > > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > Thanks Joe > > > > Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take > to > > heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I > will > > bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, > then > > chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly > > watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy > who > > was to be protecting our interests actually, 2621&!ed us!! > > > > Rowland > > > | 16257|16172|2008-01-14 22:30:14|Aaron Williams|Re: Zinks|Yes this is true but the anodes would be under water most all of the time. Aaron ANDREW AIREY wrote: Aluminium is a pretty reactive metal.The only reason that you can use aluminium for anything is because the oxide layer formed in contact with the air is very tenacious and this prevents further corrosion of the metal - unlike steel where the oxide layer separates and allows further attack.I'm told that if you put some mercury onto aluminium this dissolves the oxide layer and then forms an amalgam which is very susceptible to oxidation cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16258|16233|2008-01-14 23:03:29|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Putting the story in the Sun might not be a good idea. It will give other metal thieves the > idea to steal other metal boats. > > > True, I never thought of that but I can assure you that the thieves already have. This guy was my in-law, of all people. He sold out our dream for $965.00?!! Wtf is wrong with some people?? It probably cost him close to that to have the boat moved from Duncan to Cassidy. Genius!! Makes me suspect that the truck driver was in on it, especially since the thief used to work at the place who hauled my boat. Glad to hear through the grape vine that several companies turned him down since they suspected something isn't right. Wo cuts up a completed hull and sells it for les than $1000.00? The lead alone was worth close to $2k. I guess Can-am didn't bother to question him either?? Hmm? Rowland| 16259|16233|2008-01-14 23:18:37|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Rowland, that is absolutely terrible news and sounds almost incredible. When I think about it I end up with a big stack of question marks and one of them is: How could the recycling company destroy a boat hull without checking that the actual owner was the one delivering for destruction???? Not that it will bring you the boat back, but I hope the responsible ones will get a real smack where it hurts the most. If you feel up to it, I am sure there are others with big question marks as well, so more details (in due time) would be appreciated. Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 4:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!! --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > No need to keep looking. The RCMP have solved the case. Our boat has been reduced to scrap and has been crushed into little bits by Can-am recyling. Rowland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16260|16233|2008-01-14 23:34:29|Ben Okopnik|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 04:03:28AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > This guy was my in-law, of all people. > > He sold out our dream for $965.00?!! Wtf is wrong with some people?? It > probably cost him close to that to have the boat moved from Duncan to > Cassidy. Genius!! Makes me suspect that the truck driver was in on it, > especially since the thief used to work at the place who hauled my boat. > > Glad to hear through the grape vine that several companies turned him > down since they suspected something isn't right. Wo cuts up a completed > hull and sells it for les than $1000.00? The lead alone was worth close > to $2k. I guess Can-am didn't bother to question him either?? Hmm? Rowland, I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but here's something you might consider: the Can-Am people are, technically, receivers of stolen property and are thus responsible for restoring it to you. Obviously, they can't return your boat - but you should be able to come to some financial arrangement with them that would get you at least a majority of the way toward rebuilding your dream. If the other companies could smell a rat, they should have too. If they were so damn greedy that they decided to grab it and cut it up without sufficient proof of ownership, they should pay the price. If nothing else, it'll make them think twice about doing it to someone else. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16261|16233|2008-01-15 01:28:53|Bill Gilroy|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|As much as I am not a fan of lawsuits, I think you should consider suing the scrapyard and the guy who stole the boat. Check with an attorney and the police, as Ben states, they are receivers of stolen property. I would aim at my costs as what it would cost to get someone else to build you a new hull. Sorry about the loss, but I feel very strongly that you should be made whole by the people that robbed you. Crooks should feel pain. -g On 1/14/08, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 04:03:28AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > This guy was my in-law, of all people. > > > > He sold out our dream for $965.00?!! Wtf is wrong with some people?? > > probably cost him close to that to have the boat moved from Duncan to > > Cassidy. Genius!! Makes me suspect that the truck driver was in on it, > > especially since the thief used to work at the place who hauled my boat. > > > > Glad to hear through the grape vine that several companies turned him > > down since they suspected something isn't right. Wo cuts up a completed > > hull and sells it for les than $1000.00? The lead alone was worth close > > to $2k. I guess Can-am didn't bother to question him either?? Hmm? > > Rowland, I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but here's something you > might consider: the Can-Am people are, technically, receivers of stolen > property and are thus responsible for restoring it to you. Obviously, > they can't return your boat - but you should be able to come to some > financial arrangement with them that would get you at least a majority > of the way toward rebuilding your dream. > > If the other companies could smell a rat, they should have too. If they > were so damn greedy that they decided to grab it and cut it up without > sufficient proof of ownership, they should pay the price. If nothing > else, it'll make them think twice about doing it to someone else. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16262|16233|2008-01-15 01:51:59|Paul J. Thompson|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|I very much support the sentiments expressed below by Bill. Rowland I feel really heart sore for you and I hope you come right and do not give up. I and I am sure many others in our group will be willing to help you and your wife get going again. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Bill Gilroy wrote: > As much as I am not a fan of lawsuits, I think you should consider suing the > scrapyard and the guy who stole the boat. Check with an attorney and the > police, as Ben states, they are receivers of stolen property. I would aim > at my costs as what it would cost to get someone else to build you a new > hull. Sorry about the loss, but I feel very strongly that you should be > made whole by the people that robbed you. Crooks should feel pain. > > -g | 16263|16233|2008-01-15 06:12:51|David A. Frantz|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|How in the hell did that happen? Angry neighbors? I'm just wondering what was the incentive for a scrap handler to come out and destroy a boat? Seems like a lot of work for any value in the materials. dave kingsknight4life wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > No need to keep looking. The RCMP have solved the case. Our boat has > been reduced to scrap and has been crushed into little bits by Can-am > recyling. > Rowland > > | 16264|16233|2008-01-15 08:27:20|Ray|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > No need to keep looking. The RCMP have solved the case. Our boat has > been reduced to scrap and has been crushed into little bits by Can-am > recyling. > Rowland > Oh No! I'm so sorry for you! You can recover the money, but you won't get back the time! I sincerely hope that you get enough in recovery to help you fast-track back to your last point of progress. This is absolutely horrific. My condolences, Ray Kimbro| 16265|16233|2008-01-15 13:06:24|mark hamill|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Hi: Very sorry to hear about this incredible stupidity. Regarding lawyers, the legal aid society? has/had a legal consultation agreement with lawyers that allows a 1/2 hour consultation with people in the area of expertise you require for about $50. Legal Aid-Legal Services Society - 1-866-577-2525 Provincial Call Centre & LawLINE Toll Free : 1-866-577-2525 Category : Lawyers www.8665772525.yp.ca Legal Aid-Legal Services Society - 250-753-4396 Duncan Local Agent 238 Government Street , Duncan , BC V9L 1A5 Found this in www.superpages.ca Markh| 16266|16233|2008-01-15 14:08:54|Paul Wilson|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Rowland, I am so sorry for your loss. I can't believe that someoone could be so un-thinking and cold to do such a thing. I am sure you are still in shock and your shock will turn to anger which would be totally justified. I would love it if the guys who chopped your boat up would finance the next one...... As someone has already said, please keep the dream alive. All the best, Paul Rowland wrote, He sold out our dream for $965.00?!! Wtf is wrong with some people?? It probably cost him close to that to have the boat moved from Duncan to Cassidy. Genius!! Makes me suspect that the truck driver was in on it, especially since the thief used to work at the place who hauled my boat. Glad to hear through the grape vine that several companies turned him down since they suspected something isn't right. Wo cuts up a completed hull and sells it for les than $1000.00? The lead alone was worth close to $2k. I guess Can-am didn't bother to question him either?? Hmm? Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16267|16233|2008-01-15 17:12:43|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|I think a law suit against Can am metals is a viable option. You could then put liens against all their assets, making it impossible for them to get credit. Their asets and equipment are considerable, including the property. They had to know there was something fishy about a perfectly good boat being sold for scrap.Balance of probablilities says they turned a blind eye toward such suspicions. File a private criminal information against them for possession of stolen property. Talk to a lawyer , and put liens on everything they own for the amount it would take at todays prices to get a boat to that stage. Call Waterline yachts for a quote. Get it in writing. For that kind of of money, most lawyers would work for a contingency fee, % when the matter is settled. Don't wimp out.Go for it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > >If anyone is in the naimo area they might want to check out Can-am > metals on the trans Canada hwy. I'd like to know if any parts of my > boat are still there. > > Thanks Rowland > | 16268|16172|2008-01-15 17:16:01|brentswain38|Re: Zinks|I'd be very supried if the oxide layer protected it while submerged in seawater and welded to steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Aluminium is a pretty reactive metal.The only reason > that you can use aluminium for anything is because the > oxide layer formed in contact with the air is very > tenacious and this prevents further corrosion of the > metal - unlike steel where the oxide layer separates > and allows further attack.I'm told that if you put > some mercury onto aluminium this dissolves the oxide > layer and then forms an amalgam which is very > susceptible to oxidation > cheers > andy airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 16269|16233|2008-01-15 17:22:59|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Does this mean scrap dealers can go collecting any cars , left parked on any street ,and cut them up for scrap, legally? Better not leave any cars parked unattended anywhere in Canada. They are fair game. Sounds like grand theft . John Kennedy once said "Those who obstruct peaceful means of settling disputes , make violent means inevitable." Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think a law suit against Can am metals is a viable option. You > could then put liens against all their assets, making it impossible > for them to get credit. Their asets and equipment are considerable, > including the property. They had to know there was something fishy > about a perfectly good boat being sold for scrap.Balance of > probablilities says they turned a blind eye toward such suspicions. > File a private criminal information against them for possession of > stolen property. Talk to a lawyer , and put liens on everything they > own for the amount it would take at todays prices to get a boat to > that stage. Call Waterline yachts for a quote. Get it in writing. > For that kind of of money, most lawyers would work for a contingency > fee, % when the matter is settled. > Don't wimp out.Go for it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > >If anyone is in the naimo area they might want to check out Can-am > > metals on the trans Canada hwy. I'd like to know if any parts of my > > boat are still there. > > > > Thanks Rowland > > > | 16270|16233|2008-01-15 17:34:14|robert anthony|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|I am sorry about the loss of the boat. It will be hard for money to replace it, i am sure it became a part of you as you labored with it. The scrap yard probablely has some responsibilty for distroying the boat, but isn't the person who had it brought to the yard the person with the most blame. Scrap yards take cars every day. But they don't steal them from the street. The criminal at most fault would be the person who stole the car and represents it as his own. brentswain38 wrote: Does this mean scrap dealers can go collecting any cars , left parked on any street ,and cut them up for scrap, legally? Better not leave any cars parked unattended anywhere in Canada. They are fair game. Sounds like grand theft . John Kennedy once said "Those who obstruct peaceful means of settling disputes , make violent means inevitable." Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I think a law suit against Can am metals is a viable option. You > could then put liens against all their assets, making it impossible > for them to get credit. Their asets and equipment are considerable, > including the property. They had to know there was something fishy > about a perfectly good boat being sold for scrap.Balance of > probablilities says they turned a blind eye toward such suspicions. > File a private criminal information against them for possession of > stolen property. Talk to a lawyer , and put liens on everything they > own for the amount it would take at todays prices to get a boat to > that stage. Call Waterline yachts for a quote. Get it in writing. > For that kind of of money, most lawyers would work for a contingency > fee, % when the matter is settled. > Don't wimp out.Go for it. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > >If anyone is in the naimo area they might want to check out Can-am > > metals on the trans Canada hwy. I'd like to know if any parts of my > > boat are still there. > > > > Thanks Rowland > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16271|16233|2008-01-15 19:00:04|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Two scrapyards turned it down. While they deserve full credit for doing so, they were definitly negligent in not reporting their suspicions to police. Some scrapyards do. Can Am no doubt had every reason to be suspicious , but decided to cut her up quickly as possible ,without asking any questions , before anyone could find her. They are definitly resposible for criminal complicity in a criminal act. That may be where my dinghy went. Are there any lawyers on this site who can enlighten us as to what Rowland's options are? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, robert anthony wrote: > > I am sorry about the loss of the boat. It will be hard for money to replace it, i am sure it became a part of you as you labored with it. > > The scrap yard probablely has some responsibilty for distroying the boat, but isn't the person who had it brought to the yard the person with the most blame. Scrap yards take cars every day. But they don't steal them from the street. The criminal at most fault would be the person who stole the car and represents it as his own. > > > brentswain38 wrote: > Does this mean scrap dealers can go collecting any cars , left parked > on any street ,and cut them up for scrap, legally? Better not leave > any cars parked unattended anywhere in Canada. They are fair game. > Sounds like grand theft . > John Kennedy once said "Those who obstruct peaceful means of settling > disputes , make violent means inevitable." > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > I think a law suit against Can am metals is a viable option. You > > could then put liens against all their assets, making it impossible > > for them to get credit. Their asets and equipment are considerable, > > including the property. They had to know there was something fishy > > about a perfectly good boat being sold for scrap.Balance of > > probablilities says they turned a blind eye toward such suspicions. > > File a private criminal information against them for possession of > > stolen property. Talk to a lawyer , and put liens on everything they > > own for the amount it would take at todays prices to get a boat to > > that stage. Call Waterline yachts for a quote. Get it in writing. > > For that kind of of money, most lawyers would work for a contingency > > fee, % when the matter is settled. > > Don't wimp out.Go for it. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > >If anyone is in the naimo area they might want to check out Can-am > > > metals on the trans Canada hwy. I'd like to know if any parts of my > > > boat are still there. > > > > > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16272|16233|2008-01-15 19:18:36|Michael Casling|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|I am not a lawyer. But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be heard, as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments and the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the property needs to be understood. The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. A lawyer will want to know those facts. This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have moved. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Two scrapyards turned it down. While they deserve full credit for > doing so, they were definitly negligent in not reporting their > suspicions to police. Some scrapyards do. Can Am no doubt had every > reason to be suspicious , but decided to cut her up quickly as > possible ,without asking any questions , before anyone could find her. > They are definitly resposible for criminal complicity in a criminal > act. That may be where my dinghy went. > Are there any lawyers on this site who can enlighten us as to what > Rowland's options are? > Brent | 16273|16233|2008-01-15 23:07:39|dbourg2002|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|I am not a lawyer but have some personal knowledge about lawsuits, what I have found is that it is best to name (sue)everyone involved in the action causing the damages. In your case this would be the uncle, the boat mover as well as the scrap metal dealer. All of the named can then contact their insurers to determine accountability and hence settlement costs. It is much more likely you will end up with a settlement this way. BTY I have been told that for a case to be heard by the courts it will cost at least $35,000 canadian so keep this in mind if you decide to proceed. Let me offer my personal condolances, I just can't believe someone you know would do this to you. DonRina Prairie Gringo origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > I am not a lawyer. > But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be heard, > as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. > By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments and > the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the property > needs to be understood. > The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. > A lawyer will want to know those facts. > This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be > pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have moved. > > Michael > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Two scrapyards turned it down. While they deserve full credit for > > doing so, they were definitly negligent in not reporting their > > suspicions to police. Some scrapyards do. Can Am no doubt had every > > reason to be suspicious , but decided to cut her up quickly as > > possible ,without asking any questions , before anyone could find her. > > They are definitly resposible for criminal complicity in a criminal > > act. That may be where my dinghy went. > > Are there any lawyers on this site who can enlighten us as to what > > Rowland's options are? > > Brent > | 16274|16233|2008-01-16 00:30:41|kingsknight4life|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > I am not a lawyer. Maybe not? but you sure sound like one > But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be heard, as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. There was no "arrangement" betwen him and I. My mother-in-laws parents let us keep our boat there. While they were away they let there POS, (I mean misunderstood, unemployed, drunken, drug addict) son stay there, since he was out of work and had no place to live.They thought they would "help him out" and in exchange for a place to stay he would keep an eye on their place and our boat. > By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments and the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the property needs to be understood. What exactly is there to "understand"? He STOLE our boat!! He chopped the bow off and had it loaded onto a trailer. The reputable companies that he called refused to haul the boat, as (almost) anyone could see that something shady was going on and they refused to be a part of it. His motive was greed pure and simple. We weren't renting the land, there were no payments, besides the fact that he is NOT the owner of the land or the renter of the property where the boat formerly sat. The ONLY thing he had to do was NOT steal it. > The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. HUH? Otherwise? NOT criminal? He took a boat not belonging to him from property, again not belonging to him, chopped it in two and had it hauled away and sold to a scrap yard. Then pretended it was stolen when he returned home. Only reporting it missing after Bev's other Uncle questioned him on it. > A lawyer will want to know those facts. A lawyer will and the cops already do. > This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be > pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have moved. I hope that you do. I would absolutely hate for someone else to have to go through what we're going through right now. Currently it feels as if our dream has been stolen, crushed and destroyed. All for less than $1000 dollars. > > Michael > >Sorry if I come off bitter and cynical, Michael but you come off a little naive. You're almost insinuating that I wasn't telling the whole truth initially, when I said that he "stole" our boat. Like perhaps I owed him money and he confiscated our boat in lieu of payments for some debt or back rent?? If that (insinutation)was not the case I'm sorry if my words aren't very diplomatic right now and that I've lost my usual sense of courtesy and tact. Not that it's the greatest when I'm on my best behaviour, so I'm sure that today I'm more curt and cynical than ever. I just find it hard to think that there is anyway to remotely justify what he has done to us. And since I'm not pulling any punches...okay I still am, pulling "them" a little. If I wasn't I'd probably get my computer taken away by the cyber police. Let's just say that both Dan's pre- cast in Duncan and Can-Am recyling in Cassdiy are definitely off of my Christmas list. Both should've known better and i'l justleave it at that. On a positive note thanks for all the heart felt messages and help we received in this matter. Bev's Uncle Robert helped us solve this whole thing and was our eyes, ears and voice in Duncan. Alex upon hearing this e-mailed all the scrap yards on the island and warned them to be on the lookout for our boat. He along with others including but not limited to Brent Swain and Evan Shaler have also helped out. THANKYOU everyone. I purposely didn't name everyone mostly for confidentialities (sp?) sake NOt becuase we didn't apprecaite the help. Thanks again, Rowland| 16275|16275|2008-01-16 01:56:47|jfpacuas|Anchor Winch Again|Hi folks, Those of you using Brent style winches: Is it typical to use some sort of brake to lower the anchor or are most built without a braking mechanism? It has been awhile since I looked at pictures of these winches, but I don't recall seeing a brake. Cheers Paul| 16276|16276|2008-01-16 09:15:09|Ray|Re: Stolen Swain 36|This brings up several questions: I was speaking w/my mother about this (she's an insurance bigwig, and a homebuilt boat-lover herself) and she posed this question: 1) In Canada, does the property-owner's insurance policy cover theft- related losses? (down here, it usually does, though sometimes riders are required for big-ticket items) If so - the quickest way to get you back in a boat MAY be to file the claim w/the insurance company, and then let THEM (w/their substantial legal team) go after the culpable persons. 2) Please consider that the value of your loss is not restricted to the "scrap value of your hull" - it includes EVERYTHING that you will need to do to be restored to pre-loss condition: time off (lost wages), transportation costs, temporary lodging costs - others MAY be applicable. Mom's suggestion was to IMMEDIATELY begin a diary of everything that you do w/r/t this situation. Be specific, include times and $$ amounts, who you spoke with where about what. THIS doucmentation will be invaluable to you in the final determination of your loss valuation. I do not mean to make light of the emotional costs, nor to suggest that you forget those, but, to give you the best chance at the fullest recovery, you need to gather and maintain this information. My best wishes for a full & speedy restoration - I'm so sorry that this happened to y'all. Ray Kimbro| 16277|16276|2008-01-16 11:01:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Stolen Swain 36|On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 02:15:07PM -0000, Ray wrote: > This brings up several questions: > > I was speaking w/my mother about this (she's an insurance bigwig, and > a homebuilt boat-lover herself) and she posed this question: > > 1) In Canada, does the property-owner's insurance policy cover theft- > related losses? (down here, it usually does, though sometimes > riders are required for big-ticket items) > > If so - the quickest way to get you back in a boat MAY be to file the > claim w/the insurance company, and then let THEM (w/their substantial > legal team) go after the culpable persons. > > 2) Please consider that the value of your loss is not restricted to > the "scrap value of your hull" - it includes EVERYTHING that you will > need to do to be restored to pre-loss condition: time off (lost > wages), transportation costs, temporary lodging costs - others MAY be > applicable. Mom's suggestion was to IMMEDIATELY begin a diary of > everything that you do w/r/t this situation. Be specific, include > times and $$ amounts, who you spoke with where about what. THIS > doucmentation will be invaluable to you in the final determination of > your loss valuation. > > I do not mean to make light of the emotional costs, nor to suggest > that you forget those, but, to give you the best chance at the > fullest recovery, you need to gather and maintain this information. > > My best wishes for a full & speedy restoration - I'm so sorry that > this happened to y'all. Rowland, I'm completely with Ray on the documentation angle: this is the way to go. The legal system relies on paperwork - in essence, the more paper you have, the better off you are. In this situation, they can't pay you for what you haven't specifically asked for... so you need to get *everything* down. It's boring, it sucks, it's a *huge* PITA right now while you're in pain from your loss - but unless you take care of it, you're going to wind up on the short end when it comes time to get that money back. Best of luck, and again, sorry for your loss. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16278|16233|2008-01-16 11:23:01|James Pronk|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Hello Rowland and Bev I am so sorry to hear of the lose of your boat, I felt sick reading about it. It sounds like a real dirty situation, I know what I would be using for an anchor test(it might be a waste of an anchor). If there is anything that I could do for you I would. Best of luck, James Pronk. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi everyone. > > Bev and I just received some very bad news. Our hull has gone missing > from her Grandparents acreage in the Duncan area. This occured sometime > in the last week, it was last seen approximately 7 day ago around the > end of the first week of Jan.08 > > DESCRIPTION: > 36 ft. bilge keeler. > Color is pre-primed, green steel plate and is rusty.(mostly decks and > cabin tops) > Stainless steel stanchions and lifelines. > Holes for windows and portlights cut out. > Aluminum door and front hatch. > Fully detailed, including boarding ladder, cleats, bollards etc. > Anchor winch included. > Pilothouse style is "Evans" not "Brents". ie. slope is forward > > Pictures will be posted shortly in the pics. section. For now > undetailed pis of our boat can be seen in the pics. section under the > heading" Paul's boat" > > As you can imagine both Bev and I are totally stressed out right now > having invested lots of time, money and effort into our boat. ANY info. > now matter how insignificant would be VERY,appreciated. Can everyone on > Vancuver Island please keep an eye out for our boat and please don't > hesitate to contact me day or night with ANY leads. > > To all others not on "the Island" please help us keep a watch on > Craig's list, Yachtworld, BoatJournal etc. for our hull. > > Thankyou, > Rowland and Bev. > > We can be contacted here on this board or at either of the following e- > mail addresses wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom or > kingsknight4lifeATyahoo.com. > All information will be kept in the strictest of confidence. We just > want our boat back safe and sound. You can also e-mail me and I will > give you my number if you would rather speak in person. > | 16279|16233|2008-01-16 12:28:14|mickeyolaf|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Request the RCMP to charge him with Theft over $5000. After he is charged contact the prosecutor and ask for an order of restitution to be made for the full value of your loss if and when he is convicted. Get the case number from the RCMP, After he is charged, then court watch. Contact the courts where he is charged. Give his name and the file number to the court registry and ask for his next court date. Make sure u contact the prosecutor and say u are coming to court and u need the restitution order. If u don'y ask for the order your uncle can plead guilty without your knowing it and there will be no criminal recovery option for u. Make sure u are in court every time he is. Take him also to small claims court. U can do the paper work yourself. The process is designed for the lay person without a lawyer. Once u have a small claims judgement against him u can recover your loss from any money he ever comes into ie an inheritance, insurance payout etc. If u are going to include Can Am Recyling then u will need a lawyer as they will hire one and u will be at a disadvantage against skilled counsel. U can also bite the bullet, hire a lawyer and sue Can Am (who has money) and your uncle who doesn't. Do not make any deals with Can Am verbal or written until u have talked to a lawyer as u will screw yourself for a future action if u make a deal outside the court unrepresented. If they offer u $ ie what they paid for the boat say no. You can't get money from a hype(addict) as all of their money goes up their noses or into their arms but u can get the order of restitution against uncle idiot and the a civil judgement also against him and u can wait til he has money. Never make a deal with him. Ever. When somebody backstabs u most normal victims (you) go thru three stages. Anger, revenge, and acceptance. Skip the first two, accept that your work is gone and seek out the restitution order and judgement. Then wait. It all comes down to what is known as colour of right. From what u say they is no reason whatsoever for your uncle or the courts to think the junkie had any colour of right to your boat. It sounds like a simple straight forward theft. The likelihood of conviction (the crown's test to prosecute a case) is strong so the crown will lay a charge. If this was me I would go after Can Am as they have money. I don't know your circumstances but it might be worth your talking to a civil lawyer once to obtain advise about sueing Can Am. Have your ducks in a row before u go. Pictures of your boat, estimate of total cost, any receipts u have, a list of the hours u put in and what u think your labour is worth, any transport fees u have paid. Good luck Rowland. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > wrote: > > > > I am not a lawyer. > > Maybe not? but you sure sound like one > > > But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be > heard, as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. > > There was no "arrangement" betwen him and I. My mother-in-laws > parents let us keep our boat there. While they were away they let > there POS, (I mean misunderstood, unemployed, drunken, drug addict) > son stay there, since he was out of work and had no place to > live.They thought they would "help him out" and in exchange for a > place to stay he would keep an eye on their place and our boat. > > > By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments > and the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the > property needs to be understood. > > What exactly is there to "understand"? He STOLE our boat!! He > chopped the bow off and had it loaded onto a trailer. The reputable > companies that he called refused to haul the boat, as (almost) anyone > could see that something shady was going on and they refused to be a > part of it. His motive was greed pure and simple. We weren't renting > the land, there were no payments, besides the fact that he is NOT the > owner of the land or the renter of the property where the boat > formerly sat. The ONLY thing he had to do was NOT steal it. > > > The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. > > HUH? Otherwise? NOT criminal? He took a boat not belonging to him > from property, again not belonging to him, chopped it in two and had > it hauled away and sold to a scrap yard. Then pretended it was stolen > when he returned home. Only reporting it missing after Bev's other > Uncle questioned him on it. > > > A lawyer will want to know those facts. > > A lawyer will and the cops already do. > > > This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be > > pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have > moved. > > I hope that you do. I would absolutely hate for someone else to have > to go through what we're going through right now. Currently it feels > as if our dream has been stolen, crushed and destroyed. All for less > than $1000 dollars. > > > > Michael > > > >Sorry if I come off bitter and cynical, Michael but you come off a > little naive. You're almost insinuating that I wasn't telling the > whole truth initially, when I said that he "stole" our boat. Like > perhaps I owed him money and he confiscated our boat in lieu of > payments for some debt or back rent?? > > If that (insinutation)was not the case I'm sorry if my words aren't > very diplomatic right now and that I've lost my usual sense of > courtesy and tact. Not that it's the greatest when I'm on my best > behaviour, so I'm sure that today I'm more curt and cynical than > ever. I just find it hard to think that there is anyway to remotely > justify what he has done to us. > > And since I'm not pulling any punches...okay I still am, > pulling "them" a little. If I wasn't I'd probably get my computer > taken away by the cyber police. Let's just say that both Dan's pre- > cast in Duncan and Can-Am recyling in Cassdiy are definitely off of > my Christmas list. Both should've known better and i'l justleave it > at that. > > On a positive note thanks for all the heart felt messages and help we > received in this matter. Bev's Uncle Robert helped us solve this > whole thing and was our eyes, ears and voice in Duncan. Alex upon > hearing this e-mailed all the scrap yards on the island and warned > them to be on the lookout for our boat. He along with others > including but not limited to Brent Swain and Evan Shaler have also > helped out. THANKYOU everyone. I purposely didn't name everyone > mostly for confidentialities (sp?) sake NOt becuase we didn't > apprecaite the help. > > Thanks again, > Rowland > | 16280|16275|2008-01-16 14:29:20|Paul Wilson|Re: Anchor Winch Again|Paul, You need a brake otherwise the drum will go out too fast (freewheel) and the cable will get snarled and tangled. The brake can be very simple. Mine is a piece of wood I wedge between the winch frame and the edge of the drum and it works great. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:56:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again Hi folks, Those of you using Brent style winches: Is it typical to use some sort of brake to lower the anchor or are most built without a braking mechanism? It has been awhile since I looked at pictures of these winches, but I don't recall seeing a brake. Cheers Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16281|16275|2008-01-16 14:33:00|J Fisher|Re: Anchor Winch Again|I thought Brent just used his foot as a brake. John -------Original Message------- From: Paul Wilson Date: 1/16/2008 12:29:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again Paul, You need a brake otherwise the drum will go out too fast (freewheel) and the cable will get snarled and tangled. The brake can be very simple. Mine is a piece of wood I wedge between the winch frame and the edge of the drum and it works great. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:56:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again Hi folks, Those of you using Brent style winches: Is it typical to use some sort of brake to lower the anchor or are most built without a braking mechanism? It has been awhile since I looked at pictures of these winches, but I don't recall seeing a brake. Cheers Paul __________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16282|16233|2008-01-16 15:29:04|Michael Casling|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Rowland, I feel your pain. I have studied contract law, and personaly been in a similar position to you. My comments were about the facts of the event, and in no way implying anything about you. The others have given you a good list of things to pursue. Legal, RCMP, small claims, insurance are all good suggestions. I wish you all the best. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > wrote: > > > > I am not a lawyer. > > Maybe not? but you sure sound like one > Thanks again, > Rowland > | 16283|16275|2008-01-16 15:29:32|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Winch Again|My foot works fine.Keep it simple. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > I thought Brent just used his foot as a brake. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Paul Wilson > Date: 1/16/2008 12:29:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again > > Paul, > > You need a brake otherwise the drum will go out too fast (freewheel) and the > cable will get snarled and tangled. The brake can be very simple. Mine is a > piece of wood I wedge between the winch frame and the edge of the drum and > it works great. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jfpacuas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:56:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again > > Hi folks, > > Those of you using Brent style winches: > > Is it typical to use some sort of brake to lower the anchor or are most > built without a braking mechanism? > > It has been awhile since I looked at pictures of these winches, but I > don't recall seeing a brake. > > Cheers > > Paul > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo > com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16284|16233|2008-01-16 15:33:00|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Make sure you get restitution before they go after the scrap dealers assets as proceeds of crime. Otherwise the govt may take the works and leave you SOL. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Request the RCMP to charge him with Theft over $5000. After he is charged contact the > prosecutor and ask for an order of restitution to be made for the full value of your loss if > and when he is convicted. Get the case number from the RCMP, After he is charged, then > court watch. Contact the courts where he is charged. Give his name and the file number to > the court registry and ask for his next court date. Make sure u contact the prosecutor and > say u are coming to court and u need the restitution order. If u don'y ask for the order > your uncle can plead guilty without your knowing it and there will be no criminal recovery > option for u. Make sure u are in court every time he is. > Take him also to small claims court. U can do the paper work yourself. The process is > designed for the lay person without a lawyer. Once u have a small claims judgement > against him u can recover your loss from any money he ever comes into ie an inheritance, > insurance payout etc. If u are going to include Can Am Recyling then u will need a lawyer > as they will hire one and u will be at a disadvantage against skilled counsel. > U can also bite the bullet, hire a lawyer and sue Can Am (who has money) and your uncle > who doesn't. Do not make any deals with Can Am verbal or written until u have talked to a > lawyer as u will screw yourself for a future action if u make a deal outside the court > unrepresented. If they offer u $ ie what they paid for the boat say no. > You can't get money from a hype(addict) as all of their money goes up their noses or into > their arms but u can get the order of restitution against uncle idiot and the a civil > judgement also against him and u can wait til he has money. Never make a deal with him. > Ever. > When somebody backstabs u most normal victims (you) go thru three stages. Anger, > revenge, and acceptance. Skip the first two, accept that your work is gone and seek out > the restitution order and judgement. Then wait. > It all comes down to what is known as colour of right. From what u say they is no reason > whatsoever for your uncle or the courts to think the junkie had any colour of right to your > boat. It sounds like a simple straight forward theft. The likelihood of conviction (the > crown's test to prosecute a case) is strong so the crown will lay a charge. > If this was me I would go after Can Am as they have money. I don't know your > circumstances but it might be worth your talking to a civil lawyer once to obtain advise > about sueing Can Am. Have your ducks in a row before u go. Pictures of your boat, > estimate of total cost, any receipts u have, a list of the hours u put in and what u think > your labour is worth, any transport fees u have paid. > Good luck Rowland. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am not a lawyer. > > > > Maybe not? but you sure sound like one > > > > > But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be > > heard, as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. > > > > There was no "arrangement" betwen him and I. My mother-in-laws > > parents let us keep our boat there. While they were away they let > > there POS, (I mean misunderstood, unemployed, drunken, drug addict) > > son stay there, since he was out of work and had no place to > > live.They thought they would "help him out" and in exchange for a > > place to stay he would keep an eye on their place and our boat. > > > > > By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments > > and the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the > > property needs to be understood. > > > > What exactly is there to "understand"? He STOLE our boat!! He > > chopped the bow off and had it loaded onto a trailer. The reputable > > companies that he called refused to haul the boat, as (almost) anyone > > could see that something shady was going on and they refused to be a > > part of it. His motive was greed pure and simple. We weren't renting > > the land, there were no payments, besides the fact that he is NOT the > > owner of the land or the renter of the property where the boat > > formerly sat. The ONLY thing he had to do was NOT steal it. > > > > > The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. > > > > HUH? Otherwise? NOT criminal? He took a boat not belonging to him > > from property, again not belonging to him, chopped it in two and had > > it hauled away and sold to a scrap yard. Then pretended it was stolen > > when he returned home. Only reporting it missing after Bev's other > > Uncle questioned him on it. > > > > > A lawyer will want to know those facts. > > > > A lawyer will and the cops already do. > > > > > This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be > > > pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have > > moved. > > > > I hope that you do. I would absolutely hate for someone else to have > > to go through what we're going through right now. Currently it feels > > as if our dream has been stolen, crushed and destroyed. All for less > > than $1000 dollars. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > >Sorry if I come off bitter and cynical, Michael but you come off a > > little naive. You're almost insinuating that I wasn't telling the > > whole truth initially, when I said that he "stole" our boat. Like > > perhaps I owed him money and he confiscated our boat in lieu of > > payments for some debt or back rent?? > > > > If that (insinutation)was not the case I'm sorry if my words aren't > > very diplomatic right now and that I've lost my usual sense of > > courtesy and tact. Not that it's the greatest when I'm on my best > > behaviour, so I'm sure that today I'm more curt and cynical than > > ever. I just find it hard to think that there is anyway to remotely > > justify what he has done to us. > > > > And since I'm not pulling any punches...okay I still am, > > pulling "them" a little. If I wasn't I'd probably get my computer > > taken away by the cyber police. Let's just say that both Dan's pre- > > cast in Duncan and Can-Am recyling in Cassdiy are definitely off of > > my Christmas list. Both should've known better and i'l justleave it > > at that. > > > > On a positive note thanks for all the heart felt messages and help we > > received in this matter. Bev's Uncle Robert helped us solve this > > whole thing and was our eyes, ears and voice in Duncan. Alex upon > > hearing this e-mailed all the scrap yards on the island and warned > > them to be on the lookout for our boat. He along with others > > including but not limited to Brent Swain and Evan Shaler have also > > helped out. THANKYOU everyone. I purposely didn't name everyone > > mostly for confidentialities (sp?) sake NOt becuase we didn't > > apprecaite the help. > > > > Thanks again, > > Rowland > > > | 16285|16233|2008-01-16 15:37:15|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|That is like saying don't report child abusers or wife beaters because it may give other phsychos ideas. Bullshit . Silence is an enabler. Secrecy is an assholes best friend. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Putting the story in the Sun might not be a good idea. It will give other metal thieves the > idea to steal other metal boats. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Rowland > > Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email > > your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been > > doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo > > or two. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must > > feel. > > > > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. > > They > > > > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition > > sitting > > > > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let > > them > > > > scrap your dreams as well. > > > > > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > Thanks Joe > > > > > > Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take > > to > > > heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I > > will > > > bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, > > then > > > chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly > > > watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy > > who > > > was to be protecting our interests actually, 2621&!ed us!! > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > | 16286|16233|2008-01-16 15:39:30|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|That is like saying don't report child abusers or wife beaters because it may give other phsychos ideas. Bullshit . Silence is an enabler. Secrecy is an assholes best friend. You can bet they have bragged to every slimeball they know about having pulled it of and will continue to do so until they get nailed. Publicity is a deterrent to other scrap dealers considering accepting stolen goods. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Putting the story in the Sun might not be a good idea. It will give other metal thieves the > idea to steal other metal boats. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Rowland > > Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email > > your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been > > doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo > > or two. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must > > feel. > > > > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. > > They > > > > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition > > sitting > > > > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let > > them > > > > scrap your dreams as well. > > > > > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > Thanks Joe > > > > > > Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take > > to > > > heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I > > will > > > bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, > > then > > > chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly > > > watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy > > who > > > was to be protecting our interests actually, 2621&!ed us!! > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > | 16287|16233|2008-01-16 15:44:31|brentswain38|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|-Rowland Could you give us some reasurance that you plan to persue compensation in the courts , and persue action against Can Am and the movers ? What's the plan? Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > wrote: > > > > I am not a lawyer. > > Maybe not? but you sure sound like one > > > But I do know that the other side of the story also needs to be > heard, as well as the arrangement / agreement of both parties. > > There was no "arrangement" betwen him and I. My mother-in-laws > parents let us keep our boat there. While they were away they let > there POS, (I mean misunderstood, unemployed, drunken, drug addict) > son stay there, since he was out of work and had no place to > live.They thought they would "help him out" and in exchange for a > place to stay he would keep an eye on their place and our boat. > > > By that I mean the details of the use of the land, rent payments > and the like. The reason ( motive ) of the person disposing of the > property needs to be understood. > > What exactly is there to "understand"? He STOLE our boat!! He > chopped the bow off and had it loaded onto a trailer. The reputable > companies that he called refused to haul the boat, as (almost) anyone > could see that something shady was going on and they refused to be a > part of it. His motive was greed pure and simple. We weren't renting > the land, there were no payments, besides the fact that he is NOT the > owner of the land or the renter of the property where the boat > formerly sat. The ONLY thing he had to do was NOT steal it. > > > The intend may have been criminal, or it may have been otherwise. > > HUH? Otherwise? NOT criminal? He took a boat not belonging to him > from property, again not belonging to him, chopped it in two and had > it hauled away and sold to a scrap yard. Then pretended it was stolen > when he returned home. Only reporting it missing after Bev's other > Uncle questioned him on it. > > > A lawyer will want to know those facts. > > A lawyer will and the cops already do. > > > This whole stealing metals for scrap is a big problem. I will be > > pleased to keep an eye on anyones boat on Gabriola, once I have > moved. > > I hope that you do. I would absolutely hate for someone else to have > to go through what we're going through right now. Currently it feels > as if our dream has been stolen, crushed and destroyed. All for less > than $1000 dollars. > > > > Michael > > > >Sorry if I come off bitter and cynical, Michael but you come off a > little naive. You're almost insinuating that I wasn't telling the > whole truth initially, when I said that he "stole" our boat. Like > perhaps I owed him money and he confiscated our boat in lieu of > payments for some debt or back rent?? > > If that (insinutation)was not the case I'm sorry if my words aren't > very diplomatic right now and that I've lost my usual sense of > courtesy and tact. Not that it's the greatest when I'm on my best > behaviour, so I'm sure that today I'm more curt and cynical than > ever. I just find it hard to think that there is anyway to remotely > justify what he has done to us. > > And since I'm not pulling any punches...okay I still am, > pulling "them" a little. If I wasn't I'd probably get my computer > taken away by the cyber police. Let's just say that both Dan's pre- > cast in Duncan and Can-Am recyling in Cassdiy are definitely off of > my Christmas list. Both should've known better and i'l justleave it > at that. > > On a positive note thanks for all the heart felt messages and help we > received in this matter. Bev's Uncle Robert helped us solve this > whole thing and was our eyes, ears and voice in Duncan. Alex upon > hearing this e-mailed all the scrap yards on the island and warned > them to be on the lookout for our boat. He along with others > including but not limited to Brent Swain and Evan Shaler have also > helped out. THANKYOU everyone. I purposely didn't name everyone > mostly for confidentialities (sp?) sake NOt becuase we didn't > apprecaite the help. > > Thanks again, > Rowland > | 16288|16233|2008-01-16 16:03:08|mickeyolaf|Re: HELP NEEDED!! SWAIN 36 STOLEN!!|Metal thieves aren't brain surgeons. They crawl thru manhole covers to steal underground wire and then electrocute themselves. It's published in the paper, all hype about the death on the front page, and then another one does it. Why give these simpletons more ideas to work their trade. The thief in this case made a $1000 quick. I have no idea what Can Am will get/got for the metal. There are lots of metal boats in various stages of completion sitting in backyards around BC. Why advertise their scrap value to the unscrupulous. If it doesn't cross their little minds maybe another boat like Rowlands won't be stolen. Scrap dealers don't care about reputation, only money. Publicity won't deter them, only Police stings, criminal charges and lawsuits will. You obviously feel very strong about this so by all means put it in the paper. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That is like saying don't report child abusers or wife beaters because > it may give other phsychos ideas. Bullshit . Silence is an enabler. > Secrecy is an assholes best friend. You can bet they have bragged to > every slimeball they know about having pulled it of and will continue > to do so until they get nailed. Publicity is a deterrent to other > scrap dealers considering accepting stolen goods. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > Putting the story in the Sun might not be a good idea. It will give > other metal thieves the > > idea to steal other metal boats. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Rowland > > > Phone BC ferries and see if it has crossed the Strait. Then email > > > your story into the Vancouver Sun or the Province. The have been > > > doing a lot of stories about metal thieves lately. Send them a photo > > > or two. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for your loss Rowland. My heart aches for how you must > > > feel. > > > > > Some people look at our projects and see some rusty material. > > > They > > > > > can't understand that it also our lifelong dream and ambition > > > sitting > > > > > there. Something that is beyond any price. Please don't let > > > them > > > > > scrap your dreams as well. > > > > > > > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe > > > > > > > > Although I'm understandly feeling " a bit down" today, I will take > > > to > > > > heart one of the lessons learned from my former football days. I > > > will > > > > bend but NOT break. The worst part is that our boat was stolen, > > > then > > > > chopped up into pieces, by my fiances uncle, who was suppossedly > > > > watching over the property it was sitting on. Ironically the guy > > > who > > > > was to be protecting our interests actually, 2621&!ed us!! > > > > > > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > | 16289|16289|2008-01-16 23:11:55|Tom|Water tanks again|Hello All Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to say no thanks to aluminum. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16290|16275|2008-01-17 11:22:41|Carl Anderson|Re: Anchor Winch Again|I have a "foot brake" on mine. It is a lever on one of the cross members that places a block of wood against the outside edge of the drum. Press down on one end of the lever and the wood is pressed against the outside edge of the drum. The placement can be moved sideways, as the wood wears a little, as its held in place by two hose clamps. This arrangement keeps the soles of your boots from getting any holes in them as well as giving a little mechanical advantage to the brake. This foot lever must be built onto the winch during assembly. Evan suggested locating it on the same side as the handle for easy use. On the maiden voyage it worked quite well with great control of letting the anchor out. I have a 44 pound bruce type anchor & 50 feet of 3/8" chain then 5/8" 3 strand nylon for my "starting" anchor system to give you and idea of the weight involved. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Paul, > > You need a brake otherwise the drum will go out too fast (freewheel) and > the cable will get snarled and tangled. The brake can be very simple. > Mine is a piece of wood I wedge between the winch frame and the edge of > the drum and it works great. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jfpacuas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:56:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anchor Winch Again > > Hi folks, > > Those of you using Brent style winches: > > Is it typical to use some sort of brake to lower the anchor or are most > built without a braking mechanism? > > It has been awhile since I looked at pictures of these winches, but I > don't recall seeing a brake. > > Cheers > > Paul > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16291|16291|2008-01-17 13:10:51|swain4sale@webtv.net|Stolen Hull!|This story has incensed many people. Time to take a stand against the scum that run unscrupulous scrap dealerships. Chek news, tv staion in Victoria is interested in this. If anyone has pertinent information, (Rowland?) call Rick Konwick at 1-250-480-3700. There are lots of people in your corner Rowland. Good may yet come of this. Rick| 16292|16289|2008-01-17 14:06:50|brentswain38|Re: Water tanks again|The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners may help. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to say no thanks to aluminum. > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16293|16293|2008-01-17 15:02:40|seeratlas|Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous s|Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub on the island tonight? seer| 16294|16293|2008-01-17 19:31:35|Tom|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Hello Seer Yes you need AC for tiging aluminum + high freq. for ark starting. Personaly I would not buy a multifunction welder like that ecpecialy one made in China, more than likely wont weld fer shi# on anything. Allmost any DC stick welder will run a tig torch on steel and stainless steel but you do need a bottle of argon gas. plasma you need a dry air supply IE air compresser with filter system. Tom PS aluminum can be welded with DC+ but you need a big water cooled tig torch and its used on heavier material Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > on the island tonight? > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16295|16293|2008-01-17 19:37:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|To Tig weld aluminum you need both AC and Hi frequency. During half of the cycle the current is flowing towards the tungsten and this breaks up the oxidation on the surface of the weld. Without the Hi frequency the arc won't stay lit. In theory you can weld aluminum with DC if you reverse the polarity. In practice you'd need about a 1/4" tungsten in a damn big torch to absorb all the heat going into it. I've tried it. A 1/8" Tungsten that you could weld with up to about 400 amps AC gets a big ball on the end at 100 amps DC. Then there isn't enough heat going to the base metal to weld squat. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub on the island tonight? seer | 16296|16289|2008-01-17 21:26:10|Tom|Re: Water tanks again|Thanks Brent That would be one option to box them in, what I would like to do is mount them in with at least an 1" all around the tank for airflow to keep the stainless dry. If they were boxed in and the tank sweats wouldnt it pretty much stay wet? I went by the scrap metal yard today and they had a lot of new off cuts, still had the white paper on one side $2.00 a pound, found a peice of 14 gage big enough for 1 tank, should be able to brake it up longest bend is 15". I have a dead space behind stove so I picked up enough 16 gage to build a 5 gallon tank back there. The tank will be 10"x10"x16" tall and mounted to the bulkhead, figured I would run the fill spout through galley top and just fill it from there. should be handy for weekend trips when you only need a few gallons Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water tanks again > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > may help. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. >> I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > say no thanks to aluminum. >> Tom >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16297|16297|2008-01-18 03:36:31|kingsknight4life|Anyone know of a hull for sale?|Thansk for all of the support and kind replies. Very soon I will give everyone an update. In the meantime I am searching for another hull or boat. Needless to say it must be relatively inexpensive. Thanks Rowland| 16298|16297|2008-01-18 08:18:09|TDPOPP@aol.com|Anyone know of a hull for sale?|Boats on Craigslist... It's gotten kind of Handy place to look for them but mainly project and smaller boats. Good place to look for Steel boats unless they loaded to the gills _http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/528902990.html_ (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/528902990.html) A second possibility, there are a bunch of us who aren't ready to start building yet, but want to see How Brent does it. Maybe if you decide to rebuild, we can get a bunch of us up to help. Only can get so many builders in on a project at a time, but between welding seams, Grinding etc. while the experts place and tack, should be able to speed things up considerable amount. I personally probably can only take a week of vacation at a time, later this year, but still willing to give a Hand. Tom Popp - KA0TP Portland, OR **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16299|16297|2008-01-18 10:28:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 08:18:03AM -0500, TDPOPP@... wrote: > Boats on Craigslist... It's gotten kind of Handy place to look for them but > mainly project and smaller boats. > > Good place to look for Steel boats unless they loaded to the gills > > _http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/528902990.html_ > (http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/boa/528902990.html) As they say, "Yes, and." Craigslist has become quite scammerriffic, with people offering expensive stuff (like boats) with reasonable-seeming but somewhat lowered prices, who will tell you a tale of being a soldier in Iraq (or whatever) who can't sell the item personally - but has it "crated up and ready for shipment to you" as soon as you send them the money (usually through eBay.) I've been unearthing these scum and reporting them to Craigslist, but all the latter can do is remove their listing - at which point, they put up 20 more. They _are_ easy to spot, given the above markers - but the primary one is "never deal with anyone who can't meet with you in person". Just what it says at Craigslist. So, beware. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16300|16297|2008-01-18 11:56:51|Tom|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|Does Alex still have his 36 hull for sale? Mabee talk with him Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 12:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Anyone know of a hull for sale? > Thansk for all of the support and kind replies. Very soon I will give > everyone an update. In the meantime I am searching for another hull or > boat. Needless to say it must be relatively inexpensive. > Thanks Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16301|16297|2008-01-18 14:01:33|mickeyolaf|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|A long shot but did your grandmother have home insurance that may include theft from her property? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Thansk for all of the support and kind replies. Very soon I will give > everyone an update. In the meantime I am searching for another hull or > boat. Needless to say it must be relatively inexpensive. > Thanks Rowland > | 16302|16302|2008-01-18 14:10:21|Gary Prebble|Florida Bound|Have not been to Florida for 30 yrs but heading down on a seat sale. I will be renting a car in Tampa and heading south to Keys (never been there) just for a look about. Looking forward to seeing lots of harbours and boats, not to mention the sunshine. Very happy to spring for the cold ones if any of origami list guys are down there. Leaving this Sunday for 2 weeks. Gary 36' Bilge Keeler Based Nanaimo BC| 16303|16302|2008-01-18 14:34:22|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Florida Bound|Gary, if you happen to pass by Ft Lauderdale, give me a call on 786 200 2292. I live in the area and I have a BS36� just purchased from San Diego. If possible we can have a trip on the water or just show you the boat as the case may be and a beer or two may also be within reach! Have an enjoyable trip! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Prebble Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Florida Bound Have not been to Florida for 30 yrs but heading down on a seat sale. I will be renting a car in Tampa and heading south to Keys (never been there) just for a look about. Looking forward to seeing lots of harbours and boats, not to mention the sunshine. Very happy to spring for the cold ones if any of origami list guys are down there. Leaving this Sunday for 2 weeks. Gary 36' Bilge Keeler Based Nanaimo BC No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1231 - Release Date: 1/18/2008 11:55 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1231 - Release Date: 1/18/2008 11:55 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16304|16302|2008-01-18 14:51:53|brentswain38|Re: Florida Bound|Bob Meade is building a 36 down there. Marcel was there in a 36 , but has headed for the Bahamas. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Have not been to Florida for 30 yrs but heading down on a seat sale. I > will be renting a car in Tampa and heading south to Keys (never been > there) just for a look about. Looking forward to seeing lots of > harbours and boats, not to mention the sunshine. Very happy to spring > for the cold ones if any of origami list guys are down there. Leaving > this Sunday for 2 weeks. > > Gary > 36' Bilge Keeler > Based Nanaimo BC > | 16305|16297|2008-01-18 14:53:32|brentswain38|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|Alex sold his boat. Just met the new owner. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Does Alex still have his 36 hull for sale? Mabee talk with him > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kingsknight4life" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 12:36 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Anyone know of a hull for sale? > > > > Thansk for all of the support and kind replies. Very soon I will give > > everyone an update. In the meantime I am searching for another hull or > > boat. Needless to say it must be relatively inexpensive. > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 16306|16297|2008-01-18 14:56:04|kingsknight4life|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > A long shot but did your grandmother have home insurance that may > include theft from her property? > Hi Mickey We don't know at this time whether they do or not but my guess is not. I don't know if you remember what the place looked like but I don't think there was anything of much value there worth insuring.So far we have not heard from them directly, they have talked to Bev's Mom and uncle but are "too upset" to talk to us in person. Maybe when they get back from China, we'll talk?? BTW thanks for all of the info/advice. I'm in the process of putting togethr a file, outlining our purchase and all of the time, money and effort that we put into the boat. The RCMP say it will help to make his sentencing more severe, plus we'll need the doc's for any lawsuits or hope of restitution. Cheers Rowland PS Although our lead we got form you is "gone" I think the yellow cedar survived. lol| 16307|16293|2008-01-18 14:57:01|brentswain38|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > To Tig weld aluminum you need both AC and Hi frequency. During half of the > cycle the current is flowing towards the tungsten and this breaks up the > oxidation on the surface of the weld. Without the Hi frequency the arc > won't stay lit. In theory you can weld aluminum with DC if you reverse the > polarity. In practice you'd need about a 1/4" tungsten in a damn big torch > to absorb all the heat going into it. I've tried it. A 1/8" Tungsten that > you could weld with up to about 400 amps AC gets a big ball on the end at > 100 amps DC. Then there isn't enough heat going to the base metal to weld > squat. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other > miscellaneous stuff :) > > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > on the island tonight? > > seer > | 16308|16297|2008-01-18 14:58:55|kingsknight4life|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > Alex sold his boat. Just met the new owner. > Brent > Brent, what happend to the boat from California, that was also at Kees' place? I heard that hull is sstill "floating around", so to speak? Rowland BTW I'm calling the guy from the tv station today. I'm also pressuring the RCMP (if that's possible) to go after Can-am. I don't belive for one minute that they're innocent in all of this. Rowland| 16309|16293|2008-01-18 15:00:15|brentswain38|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|You need a lot of air for plasma. I once worked on a boat who's owner had plasma and a too small compressor.He'd be cutting, and after 15 feet he'd run out of air and have to wait for the compressor to top things up while I passed him with the cutting torch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Seer > Yes you need AC for tiging aluminum + high freq. for ark starting. > Personaly I would not buy a multifunction welder like that ecpecialy one > made in China, more than likely wont weld fer shi# on anything. > Allmost any DC stick welder will run a tig torch on steel and stainless > steel but you do need a bottle of argon gas. plasma you need a dry air > supply IE air compresser with filter system. > Tom > PS aluminum can be welded with DC+ but you need a big water cooled tig > torch and its used on heavier material > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other > miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? > > > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > > on the island tonight? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 16311|16311|2008-01-18 15:21:27|kingsknight4life|Brent, You there??|Is the hull belonging to the guy from California still around? Rowland| 16312|16293|2008-01-18 19:23:12|T & D Cain|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? Brent No is the short answer. Long answer is that the automotive alternator output as described is DC with ripple (DC with lots of bumps). The polarity does not reverse, so the cleaning process does not work. Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16313|16293|2008-01-18 20:02:04|Tom|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a couple times wont weld to good. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & D Cain" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:22 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:27 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and > other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? > Brent > > No is the short answer. > > Long answer is that the automotive alternator output as described is DC > with > ripple (DC with lots of bumps). > > The polarity does not reverse, so the cleaning process does not work. > > Terry > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16314|16314|2008-01-18 21:11:21|Tom|stainless water tank|Hello All I made the one tank today. had a little problem with welder at first, ground cable was loose at the ground clamp. The only problem was I didnt figure that out till I was about a 1/3 done, Welds looked a lot better. Tank came out rock solid,used 16 gage on the main part with 14 gage on ends with a slight cross brake on all flat sections. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16315|16293|2008-01-18 21:23:08|T & D Cain|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 10:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a couple times wont weld to good. Tom Some different things in the TIG process. * Scratch start TIG is using a constant current pure DC source for ferrous and some non-ferrous metals --- not for aluminium. You actually touch the surface and lift the Tungsten to start the arc. Good for SS and MS when there isn't a lot of work to do and it can use a simple power source. * HF start TIG, whether DC or AC constant current supplied, uses a superimposed high frequency / high voltage / very low current waveform to bridge the small air gap when you press the button. Because this is sitting on the high current output line all of the time, the main arc can re-ignite itself instantly through the pilot spark should it extinguish due to passing through zero if AC source, or if the torch is not controlled properly (distance or gap) in both AC and DC sources. Used to be called "Pilot Arc" in some literature when we wrote with feathers. * AC TIG process for aluminium and some other metals, does have the HF system sitting on the relatively low frequency AC high current source, and this main high current AC may be pulsed or skewed such that its waveform is best suited to the particular process or metal. This means that it is possible to have more time with a negative or with a positive current flowing from tungsten to weld pool. It also means that you can run a base or background current for the task and put the extra current peaks on for various short pulses to do magic things with special requirements. * In the end, TIG done properly is probably the highest quality weld deposit with the best strength of joint in all of the welding processes used. Good TIG can be done on steels with a very simple constant current DC source, a simple TIG torch, and a bottle of Argon. Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16316|16293|2008-01-18 22:01:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Brent, The AC from the alternator would be okay for the AC part. The hi frequency in most of these welders is just a resonant circuit with a spark gap and a capacitor which give about 20khz if I remember correctly. The output passes through a coil with a couple of turns around the welding cable. If you went on the Lincoln website and got the wiring diagrams for a Tig welder you'd see how simple it is. I used to do welder repairs for a gas supplier, one or two a week, but it's been 20 years. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > To Tig weld aluminum you need both AC and Hi frequency. During half of the > cycle the current is flowing towards the tungsten and this breaks up the > oxidation on the surface of the weld. Without the Hi frequency the arc > won't stay lit. In theory you can weld aluminum with DC if you reverse the > polarity. In practice you'd need about a 1/4" tungsten in a damn big torch > to absorb all the heat going into it. I've tried it. A 1/8" Tungsten that > you could weld with up to about 400 amps AC gets a big ball on the end at > 100 amps DC. Then there isn't enough heat going to the base metal to weld > squat. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other > miscellaneous stuff :) > > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > on the island tonight? > > seer > | 16317|16293|2008-01-18 22:02:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|You can scratch start steel or stainless, but not aluminum. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) >I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can > scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a > couple times wont weld to good. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T & D Cain" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:22 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] >> On >> Behalf Of brentswain38 >> Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:27 AM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, >> and >> other miscellaneous stuff :) >> >> >> >> Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? >> Brent >> >> No is the short answer. >> >> Long answer is that the automotive alternator output as described is DC >> with >> ripple (DC with lots of bumps). >> >> The polarity does not reverse, so the cleaning process does not work. >> >> Terry >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > | 16318|16293|2008-01-18 22:07:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Tig gives the highest quality welds of all the standard welding methods. The reason is simple, absolute control of the process. No cold starts, because you don't start adding filler wire until the base melt is properly heated. The filler wire is also a control for the puddle. If it starts getting a little too big just feed a little faster. The cold metal cools the weld puddle without the need to stop welding. Most Tig machines offer remote amperage control too. I learned on a machine without it. Turn the current way up to save time starting, then weld like mad as the metal heats up! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "T & D Cain" To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of Tom > Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 10:32 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can > scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a > couple times wont weld to good. > Tom > > Some different things in the TIG process. > > * Scratch start TIG is using a constant current pure DC source for > ferrous and some non-ferrous metals --- not for aluminium. You actually > touch the surface and lift the Tungsten to start the arc. Good for SS and > MS > when there isn't a lot of work to do and it can use a simple power source. > > * HF start TIG, whether DC or AC constant current supplied, uses a > superimposed high frequency / high voltage / very low current waveform to > bridge the small air gap when you press the button. Because this is > sitting > on the high current output line all of the time, the main arc can > re-ignite > itself instantly through the pilot spark should it extinguish due to > passing > through zero if AC source, or if the torch is not controlled properly > (distance or gap) in both AC and DC sources. Used to be called "Pilot > Arc" > in some literature when we wrote with feathers. > > * AC TIG process for aluminium and some other metals, does have > the > HF system sitting on the relatively low frequency AC high current source, > and this main high current AC may be pulsed or skewed such that its > waveform > is best suited to the particular process or metal. This means that it is > possible to have more time with a negative or with a positive current > flowing from tungsten to weld pool. It also means that you can run a base > or > background current for the task and put the extra current peaks on for > various short pulses to do magic things with special requirements. > > * In the end, TIG done properly is probably the highest quality > weld > deposit with the best strength of joint in all of the welding processes > used. Good TIG can be done on steels with a very simple constant current > DC > source, a simple TIG torch, and a bottle of Argon. > > Terry > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16319|16297|2008-01-18 22:21:53|seeratlas|Re: Anyone know of a hull for sale?|Havnt seen the hull but its here in Augustine somewhere. If you like sunny florida, I can vouch for the people and weather down here LOL. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/What-a-Steel_W0QQitemZ170186616978QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170186616978 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Alex sold his boat. Just met the new owner. > > Brent > > > Brent, > what happend to the boat from California, that was also at Kees' place? > I heard that hull is sstill "floating around", so to speak? > > Rowland > > > BTW I'm calling the guy from the tv station today. I'm also pressuring > the RCMP (if that's possible) to go after Can-am. I don't belive for > one minute that they're innocent in all of this. > Rowland > | 16320|16293|2008-01-18 22:24:38|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|I've heard of guys clamping a big piece of copper or something to scratch start the arc then moving to the workpiece. pita i would think. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > You can scratch start steel or stainless, but not aluminum. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > >I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can > > scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a > > couple times wont weld to good. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "T & D Cain" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:22 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > >> On > >> Behalf Of brentswain38 > >> Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:27 AM > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > >> and > >> other miscellaneous stuff :) > >> > >> > >> > >> Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? > >> Brent > >> > >> No is the short answer. > >> > >> Long answer is that the automotive alternator output as described is DC > >> with > >> ripple (DC with lots of bumps). > >> > >> The polarity does not reverse, so the cleaning process does not work. > >> > >> Terry > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > | 16321|16293|2008-01-18 22:46:16|Aaron Williams|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Bottom line: get the right tool for the job or you will waste more money than you think. Aaron seeratlas wrote: I've heard of guys clamping a big piece of copper or something to scratch start the arc then moving to the workpiece. pita i would think. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > You can scratch start steel or stainless, but not aluminum. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > >I allways thought the high freq was just for ark starting because you can > > scratch start on aluminum but it contaminates the tungston and after a > > couple times wont weld to good. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "T & D Cain" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:22 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > > and other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > >> On > >> Behalf Of brentswain38 > >> Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:27 AM > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > >> and > >> other miscellaneous stuff :) > >> > >> > >> > >> Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? > >> Brent > >> > >> No is the short answer. > >> > >> Long answer is that the automotive alternator output as described is DC > >> with > >> ripple (DC with lots of bumps). > >> > >> The polarity does not reverse, so the cleaning process does not work. > >> > >> Terry > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16322|16071|2008-01-19 06:21:33|phil|Re: Aluminum welder setup|hi all other that steel plate what other materials cauld be used PERHAPS wood........useing this no frame method of building.........he ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum welder setup Well I'm far away from being a heavy weight welder, wouldn't even make light weight, but have info. Lincoln has apparently adapted their small 175 amp mig so that it can better handle aluminum. Check out their web site. I'm not sure you can call it affordable as you are likely talking $800 plus the cost of a spool gun. further after that investment you will be able to handle at best 1/8" aluminum. Probably the low cost approach would be a Tig machine. In this case you are talking real slow boat building, but it will look nice when you are done. I suspect to be really happy whit Mig, in aluminum, you would have to be willing to invest in a more advanced machine. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "cptcrunch100" > wrote: > > > > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > > > > Seems to me a small mig is the way to go, as you need surrounding gas > to get a clean weld in aluminyummy :), or at least a very very still > day to do it with special stick rods with the right flux coatings. > I'll defer to the heavyweight welders we have on the site who should > chime in momentarily as most of the football games are finishing up :) > > seer > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1205 - Release Date: 12/31/07 3:32 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16323|16293|2008-01-19 17:21:02|brentswain38|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|With the alternator oputput run thru diodes , the output is high frequency DC , like a single sideband. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > The AC from the alternator would be okay for the AC part. The hi frequency > in most of these welders is just a resonant circuit with a spark gap and a > capacitor which give about 20khz if I remember correctly. The output passes > through a coil with a couple of turns around the welding cable. If you went > on the Lincoln website and got the wiring diagrams for a Tig welder you'd > see how simple it is. I used to do welder repairs for a gas supplier, one > or two a week, but it's been 20 years. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:57 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and > other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > To Tig weld aluminum you need both AC and Hi frequency. During half > of the > > cycle the current is flowing towards the tungsten and this breaks up > the > > oxidation on the surface of the weld. Without the Hi frequency the arc > > won't stay lit. In theory you can weld aluminum with DC if you > reverse the > > polarity. In practice you'd need about a 1/4" tungsten in a damn > big torch > > to absorb all the heat going into it. I've tried it. A 1/8" > Tungsten that > > you could weld with up to about 400 amps AC gets a big ball on the > end at > > 100 amps DC. Then there isn't enough heat going to the base metal > to weld > > squat. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other > > miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy > pool? > > > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > > on the island tonight? > > > > seer > > > | 16324|16293|2008-01-19 19:21:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|Brent, The pulsating DC from an alternator can't actually be hi frequency because the frequency is determined by the number of poles, phases and rpms. I would think that the maximum frequency would be maybe 180hz at most. It is still DC too, it is just going up and down in voltage, but it never reverses. It is the reversing of the flow of current that provides the cleaning action. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneous stuff :) With the alternator oputput run thru diodes , the output is high frequency DC , like a single sideband. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Brent, > The AC from the alternator would be okay for the AC part. The hi frequency > in most of these welders is just a resonant circuit with a spark gap and a > capacitor which give about 20khz if I remember correctly. The output passes > through a coil with a couple of turns around the welding cable. If you went > on the Lincoln website and got the wiring diagrams for a Tig welder you'd > see how simple it is. I used to do welder repairs for a gas supplier, one > or two a week, but it's been 20 years. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:57 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and > other miscellaneous stuff :) > > > Would the high frequency from an alternator output run thru diodes work? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > To Tig weld aluminum you need both AC and Hi frequency. During half > of the > > cycle the current is flowing towards the tungsten and this breaks up > the > > oxidation on the surface of the weld. Without the Hi frequency the arc > > won't stay lit. In theory you can weld aluminum with DC if you > reverse the > > polarity. In practice you'd need about a 1/4" tungsten in a damn > big torch > > to absorb all the heat going into it. I've tried it. A 1/8" > Tungsten that > > you could weld with up to about 400 amps AC gets a big ball on the > end at > > 100 amps DC. Then there isn't enough heat going to the base metal > to weld > > squat. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, > and other > > miscellaneous stuff :) > > > > > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy > pool? > > > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > > on the island tonight? > > > > seer > > > | 16325|16325|2008-01-20 19:54:56|cptcrunch100|Are there any bs 36 bilge keelers for sale??|I love the look of the 31 but the 36 or a 40 would rock. Did I here that alex was selling something.. Who eventually bought the Shair from Tim?| 16326|16326|2008-01-20 20:21:24|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Reguired For Mechanical,Electrical & Intrument Engineer|Dear All Our Client, an International Gold Mining Company, operating in Papua, is urgently seeking for energetic and motivated Indonesian National for the following position: 1. Electrical (2-21191) Requirements: • S1 or D3 majoring in Electrical Engineering • Experience in commissioning of Medium Voltage Switch Gear, 5 KV, 13 KV, 20KV • Experience in commissioning Relay protection • Energize Medium Voltage Transformer • Measuring resistance of cable insulation-Busbar (Megger & Hypot) • Able write and speak good English 2. Mechanical (2-21193) Requirements: • S1 or D3 degree majoring in Mechanical Engineering • Having the experience of Maintenance and repair Rotary Equipment such as Crushing Machine, Pumps and Conveyor • Having Experience in MILLWRIGHT : pulley alignment, gear box, motors • Able to speak and write good English 3. Instrument Engineer (2-21164) Qualifications desired: • S1 or D3 Degree in Electrical/ Instrument Engineer • 2-5 years working experience in the field of Instrument engineer and electrical power design • Proven knowledge of electrical instrumentation equipment • Proven ability to communicate with design team • Proven ability to adapt designs to clients scope change requests • Target Oriented • Ability to communicate in English An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter. All application will be treated in the highest confidentiality and only short listed candidates will be notified.| 16327|16327|2008-01-20 21:18:33|Tom|BS 26 Anchor winch|Hello All Since I had the mig setup for stainless I built the anchor winch today. I think its turning out ok. Its a small version of what is run on the 36. I went 8" diameter and 17" wide on the spool , the hub is 2" OD tube, frame is 1/2" sch40 pipe. I posted a couple pictures of it in position. Few more things to do on it yet. I was thinking about running a strip of UHMW behind bow anchor roller for the anchor to set on are there any issues with UHMW bolted directly to steel deck? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16328|16327|2008-01-20 21:35:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: BS 26 Anchor winch|On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 06:18:30PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello All > Since I had the mig setup for stainless I built the anchor winch > today. I think its turning out ok. Its a small version of what is > run on the 36. I went 8" diameter and 17" wide on the spool , the > hub is 2" OD tube, frame is 1/2" sch40 pipe. I posted a couple > pictures of it in position. Few more things to do on it yet. > I was thinking about running a strip of UHMW behind bow anchor > roller for the anchor to set on are there any issues with UHMW > bolted directly to steel deck? I wouldn't think so, unless it's bolted in such a way as to create a gap that'll trap water. When I bolt e.g., a cleat to steel plate, I drill an oversize hole (e.g., 3/4" for a 1/2" bolt), use big fender washers and *lots* of 5200 (especially a good, solid layer under the fender washer and under the foot of the cleat), and wait until the 5200 has kicked to do the final tightening. Recently, when I decided to move my cleats and winches, I found that the steel under the plate that they were bolted to was getting a little rusty - but the steel on all the facing surfaces, once I peeled off the 5200, was still perfectly clean after six years. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16329|16325|2008-01-21 02:46:00|kingsknight4life|Re: Are there any bs 36 bilge keelers for sale??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > I love the look of the 31 but the 36 or a 40 would rock. Did I here > that alex was selling something.. Who eventually bought the Shair from > Tim? > Tim, I don't know if there are any BS 36's for sale but I know Alex bought Shair and then sold it. He also sold the hull that he had up in Fanny Bay. Rowland| 16330|16071|2008-01-21 16:50:23|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum welder setup|Stitch and glue plywood origami boats have been around for over half a century. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "phil" wrote: > > hi all other that steel plate what other materials cauld be used PERHAPS wood........useing this no frame method of building.........he > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David A. Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum welder setup > > > Well I'm far away from being a heavy weight welder, wouldn't even make > light weight, but have info. Lincoln has apparently adapted their > small 175 amp mig so that it can better handle aluminum. Check out > their web site. I'm not sure you can call it affordable as you are > likely talking $800 plus the cost of a spool gun. further after that > investment you will be able to handle at best 1/8" aluminum. > > Probably the low cost approach would be a Tig machine. In this case > you are talking real slow boat building, but it will look nice when you > are done. I suspect to be really happy whit Mig, in aluminum, you > would have to be willing to invest in a more advanced machine. > > Dave > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "cptcrunch100" > > wrote: > > > > > > Is there an affodable set up, what parts are needed. > > > > > > I need to make a dodger and dinghy > > > > > > > Seems to me a small mig is the way to go, as you need surrounding gas > > to get a clean weld in aluminyummy :), or at least a very very still > > day to do it with special stick rods with the right flux coatings. > > I'll defer to the heavyweight welders we have on the site who should > > chime in momentarily as most of the football games are finishing up :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1205 - Release Date: 12/31/07 3:32 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16331|16293|2008-01-21 21:15:50|David A. Frantz|Re: Chinese Welders, Ben lets go sing tonight, and other miscellaneo|seer I can't answer this question as I don't have one but if you check out the forums over on www.weldingweb.com you might get some comments. Even there I haven't seen a lot of comments directed at the multifunction machines. On the other hand the reports on welders is all over the maps. From don't event think about it for Mig welders to one or two models from Harbor Freight actually being useful. My gut feeling is that you would have an easier time of it with separate machines. That is a plasma unit and a multifunction welder. I happened to stop by Grizzly on the way home today and took a quick glance at their welders, it is surprising how small the inverter machines are these days. One thing I'm considering is getting a multifunction generator welder. The thought being that if I'm going to have a generator might as well be able to weld with it two. I'm not sure how well such devices hold up. it does add a bit of weight but overall I'm not to sure you loose to much. Dave seeratlas wrote: > > Been looking at these inverter multifunction chinese plasma/tig/stick > etc. welders on ebay. Anyone tried one or know someone that has one? > Seems to me with 3/16" plate, and my gen set, being able to plasma > cut/and weld would be "pretty neat" as they say :) They weigh about > 40 lbs or so. Says it can cut 12" a minute thru 1/2" mild steel plate. > Don't know much about tig, but don't they have to be AC units to do a > decent job on aluminum alloy? Something about the flow of the alloy pool? > > On another front, HEY BEN!!!, its KARAOKE NIGHT!!! meet me at the Pub > on the island tonight? > > seer > > | 16332|16332|2008-01-22 10:13:44|ashton_design|Logo Design|Logo Design I just recently had my logo redone by a company I found on the internet called Paramount Web Consulting, I have to say I was really impressed with their work. They made my logo exactly the way i wanted and they did a really nice job on my business cards as well. I thought I might pass that info to you guys in case your thinking of getting a logo done for the new year. I am sure you will be impressed with the results. Here is the link to their site: http://www.pwcwebmasters.com/ Have a good week!| 16333|16333|2008-01-22 15:19:48|jonathanswef|Eighteen Bow Rollers|Well, I got the fore bollard on. Not how I originally envisioned it several versions ago but I'm happy. It sits in the anchor well just forward of the main deck with a serious plate joining it to the same. this gives about 6ins below that plate where whatever is tied on will never slip off (!) and 6ins above for the usual work. I have a chain stop on top of this bollard to take the strain off the winch. I made the rollers for the bow roller. You may all remember the discussion about using HDPE and how to machine it. Well I got hold of a length of 4in bar, put it between centers on my wood lathe and running slow turned it with a gouge just like a piece of wood. Worked a treat. Got some lovely long shavings, reminded me of when I used to do lots of turning and sometimes you would get a shaving come off so well you could kick it around the floor. Next job on that is to make up the pin to go through the middle and take the load. Jonathan. PS Rowland my wife and I were distressed to hear your sad news. Our thoughts are with you.| 16334|16293|2008-01-22 18:30:53|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Welders,|Terry, can u use any other gas than argon? like maybe co2? seer| 16335|16293|2008-01-22 18:57:01|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Welders, bought this one.|http://mitech.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008821233080/pdtl/Welding-machine/1003100441/Multifunction-Welding-Machine.htm Going to pick it up this weekend will let you know how it looks. seer| 16336|16293|2008-01-22 21:36:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: Chinese Welders,|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Terry, can u use any other gas than argon? like maybe co2? > seer You can use the CO2 mixes for carbon steel but stainless and aluminium require argon or helium. I just use argon for all of my MIG & TIG welding. PDW| 16337|16289|2008-01-22 21:41:13|peter_d_wiley|Q|The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR TANKS! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > may help. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello All > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > say no thanks to aluminum. > > Tom > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16338|16289|2008-01-22 21:45:06|peter_d_wiley|Re: Q|Hit the wrong key. Ah well. Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better than others. Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its effect on stability. You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your peril. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR TANKS! > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > may help. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Hello All > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16339|16325|2008-01-22 23:08:53|cptcrunch100|Re: Are there any bs 36 bilge keelers for sale??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" > wrote: > > > > I love the look of the 31 but the 36 or a 40 would rock. Did I here > > that alex was selling something.. Who eventually bought the Shair > from > > Tim? > > > Tim, > I don't know if there are any BS 36's for sale but I know Alex bought > Shair and then sold it. He also sold the hull that he had up in Fanny > Bay. > Rowland > Well I guess if there ever was a B.S. Broker it would definatly be Alex. Was It Alex that was offering an apartment for rent and space to build in Fanny . Christophe| 16340|13189|2008-01-23 02:03:32|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Size of keel/engine cooling tank|Well it seems I might be a little slow but I think I got it figured. The BetaMarine site http://www.betamarine.co.uk/newsite/downloads/datasheets/inland/Keel.pdf have excellent info on how much surface area is required for keel/skeg cooling. I was intending to make a tank and weld it onto my "deadwood" however Ben's "swimming pool/fish tank" got me thinking. My keel (top part) is 6 inches wide and a foot deep. If I close it up for two frames I have a "swimming pool/fish tank" of my own. 6ft x 1ft x 6 inches giving me a surface area of 12 sq. ft. and a volume of 3 cu. ft. Should be ample for 22HP (and still ample for the 36HP Kubota that I might on day install) and much less work (and less resistance also) than making a separate tank. I just have to weld on one side and a top. Thanks Ben and everyone for your input. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 06:10:43PM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: >> Ben, Thanks for the info. However it is a cooling tank for just 22hp >> that I need. Not a swimming pool! :-) > > [laugh] Why not? That would make your boat into a "luxury yacht". > > Note that I'm cooling a 52HP Mitsubishi - not that much bigger than > yours - so it might provide an idea for a starting point. > >> There presumably must be a formula for calculating these things, but I >> have not found one yet. > > It's probably best to contact the engine manufacturer to find out the > amount of heat generated by the engine, then figure out - planning for > the worst-case conditions and adding a safety factor - the size of the > heat sink that you need. The formula for calculating it also depends on > some limiting factors: e.g., the "radiator" shouldn't be so deep that a > separate layer of water (one that isn't getting cooled) can form. Other > than that, it's the average time that the water spends in the radiator > (depends of amount and speed of flow), the surface area of the radiator, > the thermal conductivity of the wall material (steel is great, but epoxy > is middlin'), and the temperature differential between the inside and > the outside. > > Or you could just see what other people are using, find out how well it > works, and extrapolate some curves. Which is where I came in. :) > > | 16341|16293|2008-01-23 02:12:46|T & D Cain|Re: Chinese Welders,|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2008 9:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chinese Welders, Terry, can u use any other gas than argon? like maybe co2? seer Seer, Only welding grade Argon for Aluminium. For SS and MS there are mixtures of argon and oxygen with CO2 and the various mixes are supposed to help with slightly different requirements such as thickness, finish, and for SS in particular, to help with edge wetting in MIG processes. Some welding pros. have their doubts about some of the mixes and suggest that this is a sales stunt. CO2 by itself is fine on unpainted new low carbon steel if the preparation takes out the mill scale, but that is about the only production use for welding with CO2 and bare wire MIG. For TIG (which is what we were on about earlier?) there is not much point in using anything other than argon except as follows:- If you use one of the SS mixes for MIG, it will also do the SS TIG without loss of strength in the joint, but the finish will not be as nice as with argon alone. If you use one of the MS mixes for MIG, it will also do the MS TIG without any differences that matter. Many years ago, helium was used for TIG and sometimes for MIG, not often seen these days. If you use CO2 in any MS welding process (as in an extra cover gas on a fluxcored wire), there are some complications with heating in cold climates, as well as ensuring a dry gas feed to the nozzle. Terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16342|16289|2008-01-23 09:32:39|seeratlas|Re: Q|I want to point something out here that emphasizes what peter is saying. For those of you who haven't yet gotten caught out in a big blow yet, despite what you hear about the miracles of sea anchors (some of the claims these parachute guys are making just seem beyond belief to me, ) EVENTUALLY you are going to get into the situation in a big enough sea where, well, to put it simply, sooner or later you're going to fall off a wave. Now, imagine what all that water or fuel in your tanks is going to do when after free falling some distance, the hull smacks down on the surface. Simply put, you REALLY want those tanks baffled, and you want your welds strong and supported. And, while you're at it, you might give some more thought to making sure loose stuff flying around the cabin doesn't come looking for you too. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Hit the wrong key. Ah well. > > Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better > than others. > > Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its > effect on stability. > > You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the > metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does > nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your peril. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR > TANKS! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > > may help. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 16343|16289|2008-01-23 09:58:59|Carl Volkwein|Re: Q|Realy good replys here, but, with the smaller tanks you wouldn't need AS MUTCH baffeling asspeacialy if you could maby build them into spaces between floors, or something like that. Carl seeratlas wrote: I want to point something out here that emphasizes what peter is saying. For those of you who haven't yet gotten caught out in a big blow yet, despite what you hear about the miracles of sea anchors (some of the claims these parachute guys are making just seem beyond belief to me, ) EVENTUALLY you are going to get into the situation in a big enough sea where, well, to put it simply, sooner or later you're going to fall off a wave. Now, imagine what all that water or fuel in your tanks is going to do when after free falling some distance, the hull smacks down on the surface. Simply put, you REALLY want those tanks baffled, and you want your welds strong and supported. And, while you're at it, you might give some more thought to making sure loose stuff flying around the cabin doesn't come looking for you too. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Hit the wrong key. Ah well. > > Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better > than others. > > Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its > effect on stability. > > You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the > metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does > nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your peril. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR > TANKS! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > > may help. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16344|16344|2008-01-23 10:19:32|seeratlas|Rocna's|Well son of a gun. New guy in the boatyard has a rocna 20 from Canada and I got to see it up close and personal. There is a LOT more design/detail work on these rocna's than I had first envisaged. I spoke to the owner who has several seasons experience with it so far and says its a dynamite anchor. bites every time and has yet to pull out. He has deployed it so far in soft mud (Chesapeake), sand, and packed gravel. no problems. Soon as he finishes his prep work, he's off to the Bahamas but at this point, he's thinking of getting rid of his other primary anchors, using this and a huge danforth/fortress type as a storm anchor. Simply put, he loves the thing. I took some close up photos of the various parts of the anchor and will try to put them up in the files section tonight. What is apparent is that the front half of the blade is much thicker and therefore heavier than the back end. The circular pipe is open and protrudes down past the blade, the back end of the blade is folded up like a shovel, and the sides of the blade at the back are bent down like you would on a classic paper airplane making winglets which look to serve to make sure that an angle is maintained so as to force the chisel tip down into the bottom. much more complicated than the bugel, or the spade. seer| 16345|16289|2008-01-23 10:58:52|John Fisher|Re: Q|Motorcycle and car racers use foam in fuel tanks to reduce the sloshing as well. You buy the fuel proof foam and then stuff it in the tank. Slows down the movement of the fuel. Not sure if there is a version rated for drinking water. It takes up a very small % of the tank volume. John From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Volkwein Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:59 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Q Realy good replys here, but, with the smaller tanks you wouldn't need AS MUTCH baffeling asspeacialy if you could maby build them into spaces between floors, or something like that. Carl seeratlas > wrote: I want to point something out here that emphasizes what peter is saying. For those of you who haven't yet gotten caught out in a big blow yet, despite what you hear about the miracles of sea anchors (some of the claims these parachute guys are making just seem beyond belief to me, ) EVENTUALLY you are going to get into the situation in a big enough sea where, well, to put it simply, sooner or later you're going to fall off a wave. Now, imagine what all that water or fuel in your tanks is going to do when after free falling some distance, the hull smacks down on the surface. Simply put, you REALLY want those tanks baffled, and you want your welds strong and supported. And, while you're at it, you might give some more thought to making sure loose stuff flying around the cabin doesn't come looking for you too. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Hit the wrong key. Ah well. > > Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better > than others. > > Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its > effect on stability. > > You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the > metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does > nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your peril. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR > TANKS! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > > may help. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16346|16289|2008-01-23 11:25:27|David A. Frantz|Re: Q|John; That probably works real well for fuel used in racing, it might be a different story for diesel fuel in a marine application. The problem would be all the surface area for bugs to grow in. Of course this assumes moisture for the bugs but that is a known marine issue. For water that would be even worst as it is assumed you would be drinking the water. It is not like cleaning it would be easy either. I'd think long and hard about trying such and frankly would wait for a manufactures recommendation that is backed up with independent tests. Dave John Fisher wrote: > > Motorcycle and car racers use foam in fuel tanks to reduce the sloshing as > well. You buy the fuel proof foam and then stuff it in the tank. Slows > down the movement of the fuel. Not sure if there is a version rated for > drinking water. It takes up a very small % of the tank volume. > > John > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of Carl Volkwein > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 7:59 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Q > > Realy good replys here, but, with the smaller tanks you wouldn't need AS > MUTCH baffeling asspeacialy if you could maby build them into spaces > between > floors, or something like that. > Carl > > seeratlas > > wrote: I > want to point something out here that emphasizes what peter is > saying. For those of you who haven't yet gotten caught out in a big > blow yet, despite what you hear about the miracles of sea anchors > (some of the claims these parachute guys are making just seem beyond > belief to me, ) EVENTUALLY you are going to get into the situation in > a big enough sea where, well, to put it simply, sooner or later you're > going to fall off a wave. Now, imagine what all that water or fuel in > your tanks is going to do when after free falling some distance, the > hull smacks down on the surface. Simply put, you REALLY want those > tanks baffled, and you want your welds strong and supported. And, > while you're at it, you might give some more thought to making sure > loose stuff flying around the cabin doesn't come looking for you too. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > Hit the wrong key. Ah well. > > > > Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better > > than others. > > > > Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its > > effect on stability. > > > > You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the > > metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does > > nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your > peril. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "peter_d_wiley" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR > > TANKS! > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing > around > > > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > > > may help. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the > galley, > > > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a > small ice > > > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard > they > > > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage > and made > > > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water > in it > > > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > > > front,bottom,and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection > plate > > > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would > have to > > > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16347|16347|2008-01-23 13:06:55|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Roland & Alex|Roland, Just choked to hear of your loss, at the same time, it's good to hear the bastard didn't merder your dream as well. I hope they nail the bastards hide to the barn wall. Others comments re documentation are right on the mark as it's in the paperwork, expcially the fine print, that you are going to get the "sorry we can't help" bull. Keep the faith man. What happened to Alex, sold both boats??? Whatzup, where is he? Shane Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.ca| 16348|16348|2008-01-23 13:25:52|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Roland's stolen boat|Roland, forgot to mention, don't waste your time with small claims court, you may win the case but the judgment bears NO LEGAL WEIGHT & if the loser knows anything about the law & the validity of the court, he'll just laff at you. Good luck! Shane Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/| 16349|16289|2008-01-23 13:29:00|Paul Wilson|Re: Q|I agree with Carl. A tank less than 15 inches square is so small that I don't think it needs baffles at all. If one end of it is only 6 inches, it would be even safer. Such a tank would be ideal for rum or whiskey. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Volkwein To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:58:58 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Q Realy good replys here, but, with the smaller tanks you wouldn't need AS MUTCH baffeling asspeacialy if you could maby build them into spaces between floors, or something like that. Carl seeratlas wrote: I want to point something out here that emphasizes what peter is saying. For those of you who haven't yet gotten caught out in a big blow yet, despite what you hear about the miracles of sea anchors (some of the claims these parachute guys are making just seem beyond belief to me, ) EVENTUALLY you are going to get into the situation in a big enough sea where, well, to put it simply, sooner or later you're going to fall off a wave. Now, imagine what all that water or fuel in your tanks is going to do when after free falling some distance, the hull smacks down on the surface. Simply put, you REALLY want those tanks baffled, and you want your welds strong and supported. And, while you're at it, you might give some more thought to making sure loose stuff flying around the cabin doesn't come looking for you too. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Hit the wrong key. Ah well. > > Look, tanks in boats need to be baffled and some shapes are better > than others. > > Before you build tanks, look up the term 'free surface effect' and its > effect on stability. > > You really want to prevent tanks from sloshing, not just beef up the > metal so as to have the tank hold together under the stress. That does > nothing for the sloshing's effect on stability. Ignore this at your peril. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack because PEOPLE DO NOT PUT BAFFLES IN THEIR > TANKS! > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > The welds tend to crack from metal fatigue from water sloshing around > > > in them. If you could box them in solidly and foam around them maybe > > > they wouldn't move as much. Bending and radiusing as many corners as > > > you can and thus making the welds on flat plate rather than corners > > > may help. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello All > > > > Still havnt got to the water tanks yet, been working on the galley, > > > made the stove insert and gimbling mounts out of 14g aluminum + a > > > storage cubby with access from top and permanently mounted a small ice > > > chest behind sink thats big enough for weekend trips. Anyway I was > > > talking to my metal supplier today and I can get 304 grade stainless > > > sheets cheaper than I thought $2.60 a pound, comes out to a little > > > over $200 for a 4'x8' sheet, heck last time I went to scrap yard they > > > charged me $2.00 a pound. Figured it out and I can build 3 smaller > > > tanks with 1 sheet . What Im wondering is if you used 16 gage and made > > > a tank roughly 15"x15" square and about 15" deep in the front and 6" > > > deep in the rear and give all the flat sections a slight cross break > > > would it be stiff enough not to flex with about 80 lbs of water in it > > > and 3' at most head pressure? My leaf brake cant handle anything > > > heavyer than 16 gage in stainless and I figured I could make the > > > front,bottom, and back in one piece and the top with both ends in one > > > piece, least amount of welding that way and with a 4" inspection plate > > > on top I can reach in and use pickling paste on inside of welds. > > > > I did some reading up on aluminum water tanks and I would have to > > > say no thanks to aluminum. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16350|16347|2008-01-23 15:36:23|seeratlas|Re: Roland & Alex|Re insurance, you need to contact an insurance suing lawyer. It is a highly specialized practice and if they don't fear you, they won't hear you. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Roland, > > Just choked to hear of your loss, at the same time, > it's good to hear the bastard didn't merder your dream > as well. > > I hope they nail the bastards hide to the barn wall. > Others comments re documentation are right on the mark > as it's in the paperwork, expcially the fine print, > that you are going to get the "sorry we can't help" > bull. > > Keep the faith man. > > > What happened to Alex, sold both boats??? Whatzup, > where is he? > > Shane > > > Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 16351|16351|2008-01-25 18:58:13|brentswain38|Reflectors|I put some peel and stick reflectors on my boat. Now when I am rowing out to her in the dark she shows up like a Xmas tree when I shine a flashlight on her. People entering an anchorage with a spotlight have no chance of missing her. While I use an anchor light, it is easly missed in a backgound of shore lights. There is no mistaking reflectors. I spent many a dark night trying to find my way into an tiny anchorage on a lee shore. Seeing a reflector cemented into the rocks gives on a lot of confidence as a reference point. Those old aluminium traffic signs that you can sometimes find in scrapyards make good, weather proof reflectors. Laquer thinner washes of the writing, but leaves the reflective surface inact. Don't nail them too trees. It makes the trees fall down. Brent| 16352|16351|2008-01-25 19:05:39|cptcrunch100|Re: Reflectors|--- 3M makes incrdeible reflectors, We used a red, green and white in the proper orientation on the mast. I agree with Brent, one shine of the flashlight or spot light and blamo!! There she blows. Reflectors also show up well at quite a distance as well Christophe| 16353|16293|2008-01-25 19:47:05|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Welders, bought this one.|Ok, picked up the welder today. wired in a plug and hooked it up. First, the plasma cutter :) Well, it cut thru a railroad spike in about 2 secs. Hooked up the arc welder, put it back together. That was all just to check it out and make sure it ran before I paid for it. Unit seems to be pretty well built. He had one opened up, LOT"S of computer stuff in there. According to seller, who is a welder himself, the biggest problem is DOA's caused by shippers drop kicking the things and breaking or shorting the circuit boards. 1 year warranty thru Mitech USA. I'll let you know but so far, i'm thinking "neat" :) Oh, VERY quiet and tons of adjustments to learn how to use. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://mitech.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008821233080/pdtl/Welding-machine/1003100441/Multifunction-Welding-Machine.htm > > Going to pick it up this weekend will let you know how it looks. > > seer > | 16354|16351|2008-01-25 20:38:53|Harry|Re: Reflectors|_____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cptcrunch100 Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2008 11:06 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Reflectors --- 3M makes incrdeible reflectors, We used a red, green and white in the proper orientation on the mast. I agree with Brent, one shine of the flashlight or spot light and blamo!! There she blows. Reflectors also show up well at quite a distance as well Christophe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16355|16355|2008-01-26 06:05:36|matchauqfriends|I have added you to my friends network today!|I created this cool friends network and added you to my friends network. Hit-up now: http://meetdfgirlfriend.googlepages.com/girlfriends.htm| 16356|14072|2008-01-26 17:28:49|jonathanswef|Eighteen|Got the deck/hull joint finish welded today. Will find out how good a job when next it rains! Cut some of the holes for the fairleads and scuppers, marked out the rest. Used the jigsaw on very slow and lots of cutting oil for the curves. Knocked over my oxygen bottle and broke a guage hence no cutting torch. Even got some more welding on the corners of the pilot house and the transom/hull joint (outside)done. If it's nice tomorrow might get the fairleads and scuppers welded in... With evenings light till five am enjoying some progress. After all the discussion about anchors, knocked up a plywood one of own design; modified spade. Pulled it around the yard it just skidded over the top, never digging in. Got a CQR out of store, that did exactly the same. So no conclusion. Reluctant to put effort into making steel one until happy with geometry. Jonathan.| 16357|356|2008-01-27 09:42:54|Tom|electric drive|Hey Seer did you get that electric motor you were talkin about? I have been eyeballing this system for a while http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm They have two kits, one with regen. I am curious as to how much power "amps" it would produce off a 10"x10" 3 blade prop moving 4 or 5 knots through the water? If it would produce enough to charge one battery bank and run electrics on boat might be a good option with an small outboard kicker to boot. On my 26 electrics are not much nav lights, radio, and lap top for gps nav and entertainment.. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16358|14072|2008-01-27 09:45:49|Tom|Re: Eighteen|Hello Jonathan Got any pictures we can see? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen > Got the deck/hull joint finish welded today. Will find out how good a > job when next it rains! > Cut some of the holes for the fairleads and scuppers, marked out the > rest. Used the jigsaw on very slow and lots of cutting oil for the > curves. Knocked over my oxygen bottle and broke a guage hence no > cutting torch. > Even got some more welding on the corners of the pilot house and the > transom/hull joint (outside)done. > If it's nice tomorrow might get the fairleads and scuppers welded in... > With evenings light till five am enjoying some progress. > After all the discussion about anchors, knocked up a plywood one of > own design; modified spade. Pulled it around the yard it just skidded > over the top, never digging in. Got a CQR out of store, that did > exactly the same. So no conclusion. Reluctant to put effort into > making steel one until happy with geometry. > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16359|16351|2008-01-27 10:02:01|Tom|Re: Reflectors|Thats a good idea, Might help when trailering at night to. Ive had one boat hit at night bounced down the highway upside down at 55mph, wasnt a pretty sight Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Reflectors > I put some peel and stick reflectors on my boat. Now when I am rowing > out to her in the dark she shows up like a Xmas tree when I shine a > flashlight on her. People entering an anchorage with a spotlight have > no chance of missing her. While I use an anchor light, it is easly > missed in a backgound of shore lights. There is no mistaking reflectors. > I spent many a dark night trying to find my way into an tiny > anchorage on a lee shore. > Seeing a reflector cemented into the rocks gives on a lot of > confidence as a reference point. Those old aluminium traffic signs > that you can sometimes find in scrapyards make good, weather proof > reflectors. Laquer thinner washes of the writing, but leaves the > reflective surface inact. Don't nail them too trees. It makes the > trees fall down. > Brent > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16360|16351|2008-01-27 10:31:36|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Reflectors|I've done a lot of research on retro-reflective materials, because I used to use it with bar coded labels read by a photoeye in direct sunlight. That is an extremely difficult thing to do. There are two types of retro-reflective material. One uses glass spheres and the other uses molded micro-prisms, like a radar reflector! The micro-prism material is FAR superior to the glass sphere material. On the microprism material almost 100% of the surface is reflective, and it is more efficient too. With the glass spheres they are randomly distributed and the quantity actually there has a big effect on how reflective the material is. The human eye can not judge the difference in brightness of two materials until the difference is almost doubled. So a material that is noticeably brighter is really much better. Note that retro-reflective materials reflect light back to the source. So a light on another boat falling on the material will not be seen from your boat unless you are along the same line of sight. In our are they are putting reflective strips up the poles supporting Stop signs. The difference in getting your attention is startling! I would think that a couple of reflective strips up the mast of a sailboat is a no-brainer. It would make a huge difference in your visibility to a search light. I've used 3M, Fasson, and Reflexite materials. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Reflectors I put some peel and stick reflectors on my boat. Now when I am rowing out to her in the dark she shows up like a Xmas tree when I shine a flashlight on her. People entering an anchorage with a spotlight have no chance of missing her. While I use an anchor light, it is easly missed in a backgound of shore lights. There is no mistaking reflectors. I spent many a dark night trying to find my way into an tiny anchorage on a lee shore. Seeing a reflector cemented into the rocks gives on a lot of confidence as a reference point. Those old aluminium traffic signs that you can sometimes find in scrapyards make good, weather proof reflectors. Laquer thinner washes of the writing, but leaves the reflective surface inact. Don't nail them too trees. It makes the trees fall down. Brent | 16361|16351|2008-01-27 10:34:11|SHANE ROTHWELL|Reflectors|Princess Auto 604-7770735 also known as "the candy store" has reflector strips for trailers etc, cheap. they will also send a catalog & flyers for some hot deals on mostly Chinese & american product. helluvun idea! Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php| 16362|14072|2008-01-27 12:26:46|jonathanswef|Eighteen|Tom, There will be pictures soon. I first have to learn how to get pics off the camera onto the computer and then from the computer onto the board. Question. What is the usual junction between bulwark pipe and transom pipe? Mitre? Butt joint and cap the open end? Bit tight for a bend! Jonathan.| 16363|14072|2008-01-27 12:47:02|Tom|Re: Eighteen|Miter cut, same angle both pieces, looks nice Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen > Tom, > There will be pictures soon. I first have to learn how to get pics off > the camera onto the computer and then from the computer onto the board. > > Question. What is the usual junction between bulwark pipe and transom > pipe? Mitre? Butt joint and cap the open end? Bit tight for a bend! > > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16364|356|2008-01-27 13:43:32|seeratlas|Re: electric drive|Tom, no havn't gotten yet as waiting till time for installation to see if they improve the components :) There are a number of people who have the system and post on the yahoo electricboats forum, and the guy who runs Thunderstruck is very knowledgeable and helpful AND will answer your direct email inquiries. There are some new players in the market, but no one has gotten close to his prices yet. If you don't need or want the regen, there are stronger brushed motors available from Thunderstruck and others that use a less expensive controller etc. The guy from Thunder will be glad to run thru the options and performance of the various possibilities. I'll let you know what and when I move :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hey Seer did you get that electric motor you were talkin about? > I have been eyeballing this system for a while > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > They have two kits, one with regen. I am curious as to how much power "amps" it would produce off a 10"x10" 3 blade prop moving 4 or 5 knots through the water? If it would produce enough to charge one battery bank and run electrics on boat might be a good option with an small outboard kicker to boot. On my 26 electrics are not much nav lights, radio, and lap top for gps nav and entertainment.. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16365|16365|2008-01-27 15:08:18|edward_stoneuk|Cabin sole treatment.|Hi all, What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish as it may make the floor a bit slippery. Regards, Ted| 16366|16366|2008-01-27 18:04:02|jonathanswef|Eighteen photos|It was a long job and I still have another few pictures to post but under "eighteen" you will get an idea of hat I've been up to. Jonathan.| 16367|16366|2008-01-27 19:01:49|Tom|Re: Eighteen photos|Lookin good,nice work. thamks for the photos Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen photos > It was a long job and I still have another few pictures to post but > under "eighteen" you will get an idea of hat I've been up to. > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16368|16365|2008-01-27 19:10:28|Tom|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|Hello Ted I was wondering that myself, figured one layer of cloth and resin with a non slip paint finish or painted with marine carpet over. Carpet may be a bit more confy on the bare feet. The varnished ones sure look nice though. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cabin sole treatment. > Hi all, > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16369|16365|2008-01-27 20:12:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 08:08:13PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi all, > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. I used a heavy vinyl flooring called Nautolex - bought a bunch of it on sale at Defender Marine, since they were selling off exactly the stuff I wanted (wood-colored with narrow stripes.) This stuff is very, very strong, is easy to clean, looks good, and makes a good non-slip surface - they call it "wood-grain texture". The bad news is that you can't find that color anymore - at least I can't, which is why I bought extra. The good news is that they still make this stuff in white with black stripes, as well as other products designed for this purpose. They tend to be a bit pricey, but if you look around, there's usually some pattern or another going on sale somewhere. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16370|16365|2008-01-27 20:28:26|mark hamill|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|I used 1/2" ply coated with epoxy and then sprinkled with a non slip lip walnut shells. and then recoated with epoxy. Do the Non skid lightly as it will trap dirt. If you want the look of wood you could do the light and dark strip thing and then use a light non slip and then varnish. To make it easier to remove the boards I drilled 3/4" holes at one end. If you wear high heels or have a peg leg don't make these holes too big ;) To make sure the boards don't attack one during a roll over I am going to add a lip on one side that slides under the permanent pieces on the other side and some sort of clip on the other. From my experience so far, the epoxy coating is overkill. Paint and or Spar Varnish would probably work just fine. The sole paneling I have seen is very expensive so making your own design would be fun and leave room for creativity. Also, I used white and this shows up dirt. Figure out your major food groups and then use a toothbrush to splatter paint like they used to do on interior finishes for gelcoat on small boats and canoes. This might cut down on cleaning but one would have to ignore the 5 second rule for anything you drop on the sole. LOL Markh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16371|14072|2008-01-27 21:51:50|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Eighteen|you can use a butt weld 90 ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Eighteen Miter cut, same angle both pieces, looks nice Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen > Tom, > There will be pictures soon. I first have to learn how to get pics off > the camera onto the computer and then from the computer onto the board. > > Question. What is the usual junction between bulwark pipe and transom > pipe? Mitre? Butt joint and cap the open end? Bit tight for a bend! > > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16372|14072|2008-01-27 21:59:25|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Eighteen|Double post, didn't think to link a pic :) Check out he pictures to see how the 90's came out on mine http://jimragsdale.livejournal.com/1835.html#cutid1 ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:46:56 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Eighteen Miter cut, same angle both pieces, looks nice Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Eighteen > Tom, > There will be pictures soon. I first have to learn how to get pics off > the camera onto the computer and then from the computer onto the board. > > Question. What is the usual junction between bulwark pipe and transom > pipe? Mitre? Butt joint and cap the open end? Bit tight for a bend! > > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16373|16365|2008-01-27 22:26:45|Gordon Schnell|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|Ted I have been considering the same problem, as I am now "officially" working on the interior finish. I intend to apply Centiva ABS tiles for flooring. It's tough (ABS), waterproof and provides "traction" when wet. I'd be interested in yours, and everyone elses, comments. Just to "complete the picture", here's what is under the tiles. I have primed all the wood and foam, throughout the interior, with Bullseye flat Latex (water based), then applied 2 coats of Magna Intumescent (fire-proofing) and finally, a Magna Safecoat as a topcoat protection. Hope this will keep everything from "rotting" and and combusting and give a long-lasting finish. Any feedback? Gord Tom wrote: > > Hello Ted > I was wondering that myself, figured one layer of cloth and resin with a > non slip paint finish or painted with marine carpet over. Carpet may be a > bit more confy on the bare feet. The varnished ones sure look nice though. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Cabin sole treatment. > > > Hi all, > > > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 16374|16293|2008-01-27 23:06:38|renrut5|Re: Chinese Welders, bought this one.|Seer: I've been considering one of these, primarily for stick welding. The idea of a small, lightweight unit makes a lot of sense. From what I've seen online, many people have opinions but very few can offer firsthand experience. Now that you've spent more time with it, would you recommend it to others? Thanks. Renrut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, picked up the welder today. wired in a plug and hooked it up. > First, the plasma cutter :) Well, it cut thru a railroad spike in > about 2 secs. > Hooked up the arc welder, put it back together. That was all just to > check it out and make sure it ran before I paid for it. > Unit seems to be pretty well built. He had one opened up, LOT"S of > computer stuff in there. According to seller, who is a welder himself, > the biggest problem is DOA's caused by shippers drop kicking the > things and breaking or shorting the circuit boards. > 1 year warranty thru Mitech USA. I'll let you know but so far, i'm > thinking "neat" :) Oh, VERY quiet and tons of adjustments to learn how > to use. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > http://mitech.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008821233080/pdtl/Welding-machine/1003100441/Multifunction-Welding-Machine.htm > > > > Going to pick it up this weekend will let you know how it looks. > > > > seer > > > | 16375|16365|2008-01-28 04:34:55|sae140|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi all, > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. > > Regards, > > Ted > Hi Ted have a look at cork bathroom tiles - warm, non-slip if coated right (use a matt sealant), and spills/vomit/airborne bolognese sauce can easily be mopped-up. Colin| 16376|16293|2008-01-28 14:23:54|seeratlas|Re: Chinese Welders, bought this one.|Heading down to the local scrap yard and welding supply location to pick up some consumables and an assortment of metals to play with tomorrow. Also, have to make up a 220 power cord long enough to reach, and get some fittings for my compressor. At that point can start 'playing' and let you know what I think. I read a lot of those "reviews" too, some were very favorable, others not so. Seems there's a lot of variation in quality between the brands. The inside of my unit looked well done. Terminals clean and secure, all wires tied down, pc boards well secured etc. I guess only time at work will tell but the initial indications and demonstration were favorable. There are a couple of real pro's down here that will give the box a run thru its paces for me and offer opinions so hold on a few days and I'll try to get you a far more qualified opinion than mine :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "renrut5" wrote: > > Seer: > > I've been considering one of these, primarily for stick welding. The > idea of a small, lightweight unit makes a lot of sense. > > From what I've seen online, many people have opinions but very few can > offer firsthand experience. > > Now that you've spent more time with it, would you recommend it to others? > > Thanks. > > Renrut > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ok, picked up the welder today. wired in a plug and hooked it up. > > First, the plasma cutter :) Well, it cut thru a railroad spike in > > about 2 secs. > > Hooked up the arc welder, put it back together. That was all just to > > check it out and make sure it ran before I paid for it. > > Unit seems to be pretty well built. He had one opened up, LOT"S of > > computer stuff in there. According to seller, who is a welder himself, > > the biggest problem is DOA's caused by shippers drop kicking the > > things and breaking or shorting the circuit boards. > > 1 year warranty thru Mitech USA. I'll let you know but so far, i'm > > thinking "neat" :) Oh, VERY quiet and tons of adjustments to learn how > > to use. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > > http://mitech.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008821233080/pdtl/Welding-machine/1003100441/Multifunction-Welding-Machine.htm > > > > > > Going to pick it up this weekend will let you know how it looks. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > | 16377|16365|2008-01-28 16:38:40|brentswain38|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|The coconut wood I gave many coats of varnish 2 years ago looks like shit, the linoleum I put down 23 years ago looks great. Stick to linoleum. I used to have cubby hole inpection ports in my cabin sole and bunk tops. Eliminated them for a total lift up floor and bunk top, hinged on one side, a huge improvement and far less work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Ted > I was wondering that myself, figured one layer of cloth and resin with a > non slip paint finish or painted with marine carpet over. Carpet may be a > bit more confy on the bare feet. The varnished ones sure look nice though. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Cabin sole treatment. > > > > Hi all, > > > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 16378|16365|2008-01-28 16:40:44|brentswain38|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|When I glued half inch airolite backpackers matress foam on the underside of my floors it totally eliminated condensation in the bilge. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The coconut wood I gave many coats of varnish 2 years ago looks like > shit, the linoleum I put down 23 years ago looks great. Stick to linoleum. > I used to have cubby hole inpection ports in my cabin sole and bunk > tops. Eliminated them for a total lift up floor and bunk top, hinged > on one side, a huge improvement and far less work. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello Ted > > I was wondering that myself, figured one layer of cloth and resin > with a > > non slip paint finish or painted with marine carpet over. Carpet may > be a > > bit more confy on the bare feet. The varnished ones sure look nice > though. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:08 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Cabin sole treatment. > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > What is the the preferred treatment for the floorboards/ cabin sole? > > > > > > We need to protect the timber some how but not too shore about varnish > > > as it may make the floor a bit slippery. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 16379|16365|2008-01-28 17:40:58|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|Hi Brent, Do you think cork would do the same? I ask because I have about 200 sq. ft of 1/4in cork neoprene gasket material and I was thinking of putting it on the sole but eliminating condensation id the bilge is very attractive to me. So I am thinking of putting it on the underside of the sole as well or instead of on the top. Please comment -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor brentswain38 wrote: > When I glued half inch airolite backpackers matress foam on the > underside of my floors it totally eliminated condensation in the bilge. > Brent > | 16380|16365|2008-01-28 18:41:35|brentswain38|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|Cork is more likely to go moldy, but if it does and you have a single lid floor it is easy to replace. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Do you think cork would do the same? I ask because I have about 200 sq. > ft of 1/4in cork neoprene gasket material and I was thinking of putting > it on the sole but eliminating condensation id the bilge is very > attractive to me. So I am thinking of putting it on the underside of the > sole as well or instead of on the top. > > Please comment > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > brentswain38 wrote: > > When I glued half inch airolite backpackers matress foam on the > > underside of my floors it totally eliminated condensation in the bilge. > > Brent > > > | 16381|16365|2008-01-29 01:29:30|kingsknight4life|Re: Cabin sole treatment.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > I used to have cubby hole inpection ports in my cabin sole and bunk > tops. Eliminated them for a total lift up floor and bunk top, hinged > on one side, a huge improvement and far less work. > Brent > > Brent Thats the way our 24 ft. boat was put together, it was a great arrangement. Rowland| 16382|14072|2008-01-29 18:11:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Eighteen pipe bends|Jonathan. I have posted two photos of the bulwark to transom pipe bends on our boat in the photo section in folder 36' Fly. I heated them and bent them in situ. Regards, Ted| 16383|16383|2008-01-29 23:44:22|Aaron|Boat heater|I was wondering about what was the better choice for heating the inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or diesel. Wood stove I could build and I have the material already but Has anyone had prpblems with ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. Harbor Master. Will it be worth the loss of space to also have an oil heater mounted on the wall. What is the advantage of wood over oil besides cost of fuel these days? Thanks Aaron| 16384|16384|2008-01-30 05:09:41|mickeyolaf|Suncor Fittings|Has anyone had any experience with or used Suncor Stainless swageless fittings?| 16385|16385|2008-01-30 05:34:37|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Urgently Required For Project Scheduler & Field Cost Estimator|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (2-211-68) Requirements: • Male/Female, 30 years old • Bachelor degree (S1) in Engineering • Has at least 2nd - 3rd years working experience similar experienced record in Engineering Project • Familiar with Primavera Enterprise, MS Project, Power point, MS Word, MS Excel, etc • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Willing to work and relocate in remote location for long term • Good Command in English Field Cost Estimator (2-211-50) Requirements: • Willing to be located and working in jobsite at Tembagapura, Papua. • Contract based for 6 months (contract will be reviewed per 6 months based on the performance and needs) • Education background is Undergraduate (S1) as a Mechanical Engineer or Civil Engineer from reputable university. • Have working experience for 2-5 years in estimating project budget from start until completion of the project (man-hours, material and equipment). • Have knowledge and can operate computer software: WinEst (cost estimate), AutoCAD, Primavera and Ms. Office. An attractive remuneration package commensurate with experiences and qualifications will be offered to the right candidate. Your application will be treated confidentially and only short listed candidates will be followed up. Please send your applications with CV and recent photo to resumes@... or PO BOX 4270 JKTM 1400 or visit our web www.mbp-skill.com and quote the above listed reference number of position.| 16386|16383|2008-01-30 12:53:51|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Boat heater|HI Aaron, I'm going the wood route. It is easy to clean up when spilled, its cheap, and where you and I will be cruising, beach wood and deadfall are in nearly unlimited supply. A stove pipe cap keeps ash to a minimum. No finincky burners to fiddle with. Probably one less tank (assuming you would have a day tank for the diesel stove). No fuel lines to run. And who doesn't like the ambience of a crackling fire? When I lived in a harbor for a couple years there were several wood burners around...no complaints or rules against it at that time. People give me a goofy look when I tell them I'll be using wood heat, as if that isn't allowed on a boat. I can't figure out why more folks don't use it. They seem to be more at ease if I say "solid fuel". I would think with a 36 you could build a stove of significant mass and get a real radiant heat advantage. Paul > > I was wondering about what was the better choice for heating the > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or diesel. Wood stove I could > build and I have the material already but Has anyone had prpblems with > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. Harbor Master. Will it be > worth the loss of space to also have an oil heater mounted on the wall. > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides cost of fuel these days? > > Thanks Aaron > > > | 16387|16383|2008-01-30 14:47:37|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat heater|Hi Paul I think I will stay with the wood stove. I did a search for wood stove on the meassage and read some of the older post. There is a fellow in Wassila that has a oil stove on craigslist. Something to just confuse me with I guess. Aaron paulcotter@... wrote: HI Aaron, I'm going the wood route. It is easy to clean up when spilled, its cheap, and where you and I will be cruising, beach wood and deadfall are in nearly unlimited supply. A stove pipe cap keeps ash to a minimum. No finincky burners to fiddle with. Probably one less tank (assuming you would have a day tank for the diesel stove). No fuel lines to run. And who doesn't like the ambience of a crackling fire? When I lived in a harbor for a couple years there were several wood burners around...no complaints or rules against it at that time. People give me a goofy look when I tell them I'll be using wood heat, as if that isn't allowed on a boat. I can't figure out why more folks don't use it. They seem to be more at ease if I say "solid fuel". I would think with a 36 you could build a stove of significant mass and get a real radiant heat advantage. Paul > > I was wondering about what was the better choice for heating the > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or diesel. Wood stove I could > build and I have the material already but Has anyone had prpblems with > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. Harbor Master. Will it be > worth the loss of space to also have an oil heater mounted on the wall. > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides cost of fuel these days? > > Thanks Aaron > > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16388|16384|2008-01-30 17:46:44|Joel Vannorsdel|Suncor Fittings|I used the Suncor fitting when I rerigged my Hunter 37 Cutter. They were very easy to use and the strength if fantastic. I was out on a day sail when we had to motor most of the day, then a big change in 10 minutes from a clear day to 50 knot winds and 20 foot waves, I had all the rag up and before I got it down we had ripped the main. Not a bit of problem with the rigging. One trick I learned when cutting to stainless wire was we drilled a hole in a 2x4 just the diameter of the wire then ripped through the 2x4 past the drilled hole, Then to cut the stainless wire, push the wire through the hole and put the hack saw into the rip and cut with the 2x4 keeping the stainless wire tight together. Fair winds. Joel Joel (805)340-2727 Cell --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16389|16383|2008-01-30 17:51:04|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages indefinitly without worry about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in big cities where wood can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in remote areas. Having an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, which is why I haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch the creosote and drain it overboard. With boats that have the chimney alongside the mast I put a ring around the base with an overboard drain to take it out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much cleaner. Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full your cabin with flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with a woodstove. I've never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to work every time. Many fishboats have burned up when that valve failed . You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , led to a tank in the bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the stove. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > I was wondering about what was the better choice for heating the > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or diesel. Wood stove I could > build and I have the material already but Has anyone had prpblems with > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. Harbor Master. Will it be > worth the loss of space to also have an oil heater mounted on the wall. > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides cost of fuel these days? > > Thanks Aaron > | 16390|16383|2008-01-30 17:52:04|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages indefinitly without worry > about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in big cities where wood > can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in remote areas. Having > an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, which is why I > haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. > I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch the creosote and > drain it overboard. With boats that have the chimney alongside the > mast I put a ring around the base with an overboard drain to take it > out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much cleaner. > Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full your cabin with > flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with a woodstove. I've > never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to work every time. > Many fishboats have burned up when that valve failed . > You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , led to a tank in the > bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the stove. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering about what was the better choice for heating the > > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or diesel. Wood stove I could > > build and I have the material already but Has anyone had prpblems with > > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. Harbor Master. Will it be > > worth the loss of space to also have an oil heater mounted on the wall. > > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides cost of fuel these days? > > > > Thanks Aaron > > > | 16391|16383|2008-01-30 18:33:12|aaron riis|Re: Boat heater|Some friends of mine easily converted a dickenson diesel stove to a wood stove. Great for cooking and the oven can make 4 loaves of bread at a time. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally > friendly. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages > indefinitly without worry > > about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in > big cities where wood > > can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in > remote areas. Having > > an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, > which is why I > > haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. > > I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch > the creosote and > > drain it overboard. With boats that have the > chimney alongside the > > mast I put a ring around the base with an > overboard drain to take it > > out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much > cleaner. > > Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full > your cabin with > > flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with > a woodstove. I've > > never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to > work every time. > > Many fishboats have burned up when that valve > failed . > > You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , > led to a tank in the > > bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the > stove. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was wondering about what was the better > choice for heating the > > > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or > diesel. Wood stove I > could > > > build and I have the material already but Has > anyone had prpblems > with > > > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > > > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. > Harbor Master. Will > it be > > > worth the loss of space to also have an oil > heater mounted on the > wall. > > > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides > cost of fuel these > days? > > > > > > Thanks Aaron > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ| 16392|16383|2008-01-30 18:57:34|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|You'd want to build an airtight liner out of stainless for the firebox, so it could burn a long time on a load of wood. Take out everything and make the airtight box as big as you can possibly fit in the space available, the bigger the better. Wood burns best in it's own ashes. Grates are for coal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > Some friends of mine easily converted a dickenson > diesel stove to a wood stove. Great for cooking and > the oven can make 4 loaves of bread at a time. > Aaron > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally > > friendly. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages > > indefinitly without worry > > > about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in > > big cities where wood > > > can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in > > remote areas. Having > > > an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, > > which is why I > > > haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. > > > I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch > > the creosote and > > > drain it overboard. With boats that have the > > chimney alongside the > > > mast I put a ring around the base with an > > overboard drain to take it > > > out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much > > cleaner. > > > Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full > > your cabin with > > > flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with > > a woodstove. I've > > > never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to > > work every time. > > > Many fishboats have burned up when that valve > > failed . > > > You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , > > led to a tank in the > > > bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the > > stove. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I was wondering about what was the better > > choice for heating the > > > > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or > > diesel. Wood stove I > > could > > > > build and I have the material already but Has > > anyone had prpblems > > with > > > > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > > > > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. > > Harbor Master. Will > > it be > > > > worth the loss of space to also have an oil > > heater mounted on the > > wall. > > > > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides > > cost of fuel these > > days? > > > > > > > > Thanks Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > | 16393|16384|2008-01-30 19:00:39|mickeyolaf|Suncor Fittings|They are advertised as 107% of the the strength of the wire. They look so simple to install and are heavier than Norseman. Haven't checked the prices yet but I think I will try a couple of them on non critical stays to see how they stand up. They are made in the US which is good. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Joel Vannorsdel wrote: > > I used the Suncor fitting when I rerigged my Hunter 37 Cutter. They were very easy to use and the strength if fantastic. I was out on a day sail when we had to motor most of the day, then a big change in 10 minutes from a clear day to 50 knot winds and 20 foot waves, I had all the rag up and before I got it down we had ripped the main. Not a bit of problem with the rigging. One trick I learned when cutting to stainless wire was we drilled a hole in a 2x4 just the diameter of the wire then ripped through the 2x4 past the drilled hole, Then to cut the stainless wire, push the wire through the hole and put the hack saw into the rip and cut with the 2x4 keeping the stainless wire tight together. > > Fair winds. > > Joel > > > Joel > (805)340-2727 Cell > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16394|16384|2008-01-30 19:16:11|Paul J. Thompson|Order for Brents book.|Hi Brent, Just to let you know I sent off (this morning) US$40.00 in cash, to your Royston address for a copy of the latest edition of your book. It is more than you request but I only had two $20.00 notes so enjoy a beer on me when you receive it. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 16395|16383|2008-01-30 19:29:15|mickeyolaf|Re: Boat heater|There was a guy in Kamloops named Colin who was selling all stainless steel wood heaters to heat outdoor hottubs. He lives on the Thompson River outside Barnhartvale. They were small and looked really well made. I think he got them out of California and then converted them to heat water. I will find out his last name. He is building a 40' Harris designed motorsailor beside his home there which is how I met him when I went to look at his boat. When I was in Lunenburg there were a couple of really small wood stoves in a foundry window on the main street but they were no longer making them. They had the old easthope style engine displayed also. They sold the rights for the stoves to a Washington State firm who as luck has it is written up in Woodenboat magazine this month with pictures of their stoves. The stoves are pretty pricey but could be left in your will. I think the California stoves were $400 bucks. There was no window but they were the right size for a boat. Somebody mentioned smoke being an issue. Probably not on the anchor but would cause complaints at the dock if it smoked. We had a Pacific Energy airtight in our last home. U couldn't tell from the chimney that it was running. Stainless is probably the way to go cause if u're picking up wood from the beach it will be salty and will rot a steel fire box. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You'd want to build an airtight liner out of stainless for the > firebox, so it could burn a long time on a load of wood. Take out > everything and make the airtight box as big as you can possibly fit in > the space available, the bigger the better. > Wood burns best in it's own ashes. Grates are for coal. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > Some friends of mine easily converted a dickenson > > diesel stove to a wood stove. Great for cooking and > > the oven can make 4 loaves of bread at a time. > > Aaron > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally > > > friendly. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages > > > indefinitly without worry > > > > about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in > > > big cities where wood > > > > can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in > > > remote areas. Having > > > > an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, > > > which is why I > > > > haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. > > > > I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch > > > the creosote and > > > > drain it overboard. With boats that have the > > > chimney alongside the > > > > mast I put a ring around the base with an > > > overboard drain to take it > > > > out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much > > > cleaner. > > > > Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full > > > your cabin with > > > > flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with > > > a woodstove. I've > > > > never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to > > > work every time. > > > > Many fishboats have burned up when that valve > > > failed . > > > > You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , > > > led to a tank in the > > > > bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the > > > stove. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was wondering about what was the better > > > choice for heating the > > > > > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or > > > diesel. Wood stove I > > > could > > > > > build and I have the material already but Has > > > anyone had prpblems > > > with > > > > > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > > > > > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. > > > Harbor Master. Will > > > it be > > > > > worth the loss of space to also have an oil > > > heater mounted on the > > > wall. > > > > > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides > > > cost of fuel these > > > days? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > | 16396|16383|2008-01-30 20:05:19|Gary Prebble|Re: Boat heater|Harbour Chandler in Nanaimo has wood heaters for sale made out of used propane cylinders complete with chimney welded on and door. Looked like a very tight, solid little unit. Cost was about $50. Gary| 16397|16397|2008-01-31 10:15:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Boat Heater|Guys, These units made from old propane cylinders are made by Bob Jensen of Jensen Heavy Duty Mechanics on Tyler Rd in Errington. He's been making them for years. If you were to make up a rig much like that which is commonly used to dangle a propane bottle off of the pullpit down below, with a tray below it - to catch ash for when it finally does rot through - and a sleeve affair just like the airtight in your home (as it is suction, not pressure at the joint in the stove pipes), then, if you are burning driftwood & it rots out then it's all of $50 to replace and all you do is remove the old & slap in the new one. maybe 10 minutes. Might be a good idea to go with stainless for the stove pipe & connections as that may be a bit more complex going through the deck - but I think Bob uses 4" steel pipe for the chimney which is easy enuf to match up with SS from the scrap dealer instead of the expensive stove pipes for "domestic" use that they stick you for CSA approved ones (cost us about $700 from the top of the airtight to the top of the chimney on a really simple installation in our home, what a rip) Also, someone mentioned you can't even see the exhaust from the chimney. True, but that is only after it's good n' hot (you might want to keep your halyard well clear of it... cheers, Shane Re: Boat heater Posted by: "Gary Prebble" aguysailing@... aguysailing Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:05 pm (PST) Harbour Chandler in Nanaimo has wood heaters for sale made out of used propane cylinders complete with chimney welded on and door. Looked like a very tight, solid little unit. Cost was about $50. Gary Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 16398|16383|2008-01-31 11:40:55|audeojude|Re: Boat heater|> > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. > Brent A lot of the newest evironmentally friendly and super efficient wood stoves have a catalytic converter in the flue.. it burns just about every bit of ash and such that wasn't consumed in the first burning. plus releases a lot more heat.. Probably a real good thing for a boat as it would mean you could use less fuel.. but on the flip side it would also add expense and complexity.| 16399|16383|2008-01-31 12:17:10|mark hamill|Re: Boat heater|Hello: I used a Fatsco Tiny Tot coal and wood burning stove on my cat because it came with the boat. It was mounted at counter level and due to the narrow beam only heated the air above. Now i have 2 propane force 10 heaters that i got at the factory in richmond bc at half price as factory seconds. I agree with Brent and would like to use wood heat and cooking fuel for its ability to stay out longer. Would use and outside combustion air source in all applications. Thanks for the Harbour Chandler source. Markh http://www.fatscostoves.com/ http://cruisenews.net/db/pagetemplate.php?cat_id=8 x| 16400|16383|2008-01-31 15:41:05|Gary Prebble|Re: Boat heater|I have a Sig Marine diesel heater aboard. 2 chimneys..one brings outside air in (as opposed to using cabin air) the other exhaust. So far so good & seems very efficient fuel wise. Also has a nice fire viewing window and gives off a slumber inducing quiet hummmm (air coming in) as you slumber off on a cold night at anchor. Hal Roth in his most recent book admitted to having one and gives it top marks. However, the logic of burning wood if on BC coast makes sense. If needed I think I could burn up small hunks of wood as it would be easy to load with the door set up they have and shutting off valve at diesel main tank and valve at regulator box. Sig Marine... Richmond BC...| 16401|16401|2008-01-31 15:43:38|jonathanswef|Eighteen transom cap|Thanks Tom, Jim, Edward. I think I share this group with some talented people. In the end I have used a mitre. When I've ground the welds a little I'll take a picture to share and pretend they looked good straight from the rod... Sat inside today whilst it rained to check for hull/deck leaks; none showed up. Then endured a hail storm. I was glad I was under cover but I wished I had had my ear defenders on. Hopefully the ceramic paint or foam will quieten things down for when we are cruising. Jonathan.| 16402|16383|2008-01-31 15:51:25|Gary Prebble|Re: Boat heater|P.S... I have no connection to Sig Marine ...just have one of their products.. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > I have a Sig Marine diesel heater aboard. 2 chimneys..one brings > outside air in (as opposed to using cabin air) the other exhaust. So > far so good & seems very efficient fuel wise. Also has a nice fire > viewing window and gives off a slumber inducing quiet hummmm (air > coming in) as you slumber off on a cold night at anchor. Hal Roth in > his most recent book admitted to having one and gives it top marks. > However, the logic of burning wood if on BC coast makes sense. If > needed I think I could burn up small hunks of wood as it would be easy > to load with the door set up they have and shutting off valve at diesel > main tank and valve at regulator box. > > Sig Marine... Richmond BC... > | 16403|16403|2008-01-31 16:42:55|seeratlas|Ok, a cheap way to make a good impression on the little woman for Va|Ok, you guys, here's a valentine's gift guaranteed to bring a bigger smile than chocolates or roses, and is a lot cheaper to boot LOL. http://duggmirror.com/pets_animals/Click_if_your_computer_screen_is_dirty/screenclean.swf good luck:) worked for me hehehehe seer| 16404|16383|2008-01-31 18:16:48|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|I had a 12 guage mild steel baffle in my last stove, and it lasted at least 15 years despite a diet of nothing but beach wood.. Stainless is preferable, but the arguement for beachwood rotting your stove is grossly overated, by people wo want to sell you their wood. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > There was a guy in Kamloops named Colin who was selling all stainless steel wood heaters > to heat outdoor hottubs. He lives on the Thompson River outside Barnhartvale. They were > small and looked really well made. I think he got them out of California and then > converted them to heat water. I will find out his last name. He is building a 40' Harris > designed motorsailor beside his home there which is how I met him when I went to look at > his boat. > When I was in Lunenburg there were a couple of really small wood stoves in a foundry > window on the main street but they were no longer making them. They had the old > easthope style engine displayed also. They sold the rights for the stoves to a Washington > State firm who as luck has it is written up in Woodenboat magazine this month with > pictures of their stoves. The stoves are pretty pricey but could be left in your will. > I think the California stoves were $400 bucks. There was no window but they were the > right size for a boat. > Somebody mentioned smoke being an issue. Probably not on the anchor but would cause > complaints at the dock if it smoked. We had a Pacific Energy airtight in our last home. U > couldn't tell from the chimney that it was running. > Stainless is probably the way to go cause if u're picking up wood from the beach it will be > salty and will rot a steel fire box. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > You'd want to build an airtight liner out of stainless for the > > firebox, so it could burn a long time on a load of wood. Take out > > everything and make the airtight box as big as you can possibly fit in > > the space available, the bigger the better. > > Wood burns best in it's own ashes. Grates are for coal. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > > > > > Some friends of mine easily converted a dickenson > > > diesel stove to a wood stove. Great for cooking and > > > the oven can make 4 loaves of bread at a time. > > > Aaron > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally > > > > friendly. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Wood lets you stay in remote anchorages > > > > indefinitly without worry > > > > > about running out of fuel. Oil can be better in > > > > big cities where wood > > > > > can be hard to get. The opposite is true out in > > > > remote areas. Having > > > > > an oil heater going makes me cough. Wood doesn't, > > > > which is why I > > > > > haven't hooked up my oil heater in years. > > > > > I put a cup around the top of my chimney to catch > > > > the creosote and > > > > > drain it overboard. With boats that have the > > > > chimney alongside the > > > > > mast I put a ring around the base with an > > > > overboard drain to take it > > > > > out under the side deck. This keeps the decks much > > > > cleaner. > > > > > Wood wont drain out if the fire goes out and full > > > > your cabin with > > > > > flamable runny stuff. I've always felt safer with > > > > a woodstove. I've > > > > > never totaly trusted the valve on an oil heater to > > > > work every time. > > > > > Many fishboats have burned up when that valve > > > > failed . > > > > > You could put a drip tray under an oil stove , > > > > led to a tank in the > > > > > bilge that is bigger than the day tank feeding the > > > > stove. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was wondering about what was the better > > > > choice for heating the > > > > > > inside of my BS36, wether to go with wood or > > > > diesel. Wood stove I > > > > could > > > > > > build and I have the material already but Has > > > > anyone had prpblems > > > > with > > > > > > ash and smoke on the sails or anththing else? > > > > > > If in the harbor do the neighbors complain. > > > > Harbor Master. Will > > > > it be > > > > > > worth the loss of space to also have an oil > > > > heater mounted on the > > > > wall. > > > > > > What is the advantage of wood over oil besides > > > > cost of fuel these > > > > days? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Aaron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > > | 16405|16383|2008-01-31 18:18:35|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|I clean my chimney by starting a chimney fire .I doubt if it would be that simple with a converter. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > > > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. > > Brent > > A lot of the newest evironmentally friendly and super efficient wood > stoves have a catalytic converter in the flue.. it burns just about > every bit of ash and such that wasn't consumed in the first burning. > plus releases a lot more heat.. > > Probably a real good thing for a boat as it would mean you could use > less fuel.. but on the flip side it would also add expense and complexity. > | 16406|16383|2008-01-31 18:20:55|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|Tiny tot is a joke. I rebuilt one for a 20 footer once . It is far too tiny and non airtight to be useful as a full time heat source.More for decorative and garbage buring purposes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Hello: I used a Fatsco Tiny Tot coal and wood burning stove on my cat > because it came with the boat. It was mounted at counter level and due > to the narrow beam only heated the air above. Now i have 2 propane > force 10 heaters that i got at the factory in richmond bc at half price > as factory seconds. I agree with Brent and would like to use wood heat > and cooking fuel for its ability to stay out longer. Would use and > outside combustion air source in all applications. Thanks for the > Harbour Chandler source. > Markh > http://www.fatscostoves.com/ > http://cruisenews.net/db/pagetemplate.php?cat_id=8 > > > > > x > | 16407|16397|2008-02-01 04:44:42|sae140|Boat Heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > These units made from old propane cylinders are made > by Bob Jensen of Jensen Heavy Duty Mechanics on Tyler > Rd in Errington. > > Harbour Chandler in Nanaimo has wood heaters for sale > made out of used > propane cylinders complete with chimney welded on and > door. Looked > like a very tight, solid little unit. Cost was about > $50. > Any chance of a photo or graphic (or link to same) - for those of us who are thousands of miles away from Nanaimo ? Colin| 16408|16383|2008-02-01 10:47:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Boat heater|Guys, Can't supply a drawing but for Bob Jensen's heaters imagine a 20 lb propane bottle with a 4" pipe welded to the top. It's been a while but the welds on the one I saw looked like they might be tig work they were so nice. the handles on the top of the tank had been removed & cleaned up real nice, the door hinged with a latch but do not remember a seal on teh door. He may have refined the design since tho. One other thot, the reason an air tight works so well is you dont have drafts from the stove sucking air through windows (hatches) etc as they have an outside air source, so maybe weld a smaller pipe (what size pipe i dunno..3/4"??) somewhere near the bottom for an air intake & run that into your cockpit combing? OK, so a changeover when it rots out (what 15 years as Brent sez) would take more than 15 mins but if you have your welder handy, notahelluvalot more. Cheers, Shane Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 16409|16383|2008-02-01 19:39:12|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Boat heater|> > Some friends of mine easily converted a dickenson > > diesel stove to a wood stove. Great for cooking and > > the oven can make 4 loaves of bread at a time. > > Aaron Aaron, do you have more info on the converted dickenson? Paul L| 16410|16383|2008-02-01 19:54:51|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Boat heater|Could one use an aluminium bottle for a wood stove? Or would the fire get too hot? I have two reject 20ld bottles. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Guys, > > Can't supply a drawing but for Bob Jensen's heaters > imagine a 20 lb propane bottle with a 4" pipe welded > to the top. It's been a while but the welds on the one > I saw looked like they might be tig work they were so > nice. the handles on the top of the tank had been > removed & cleaned up real nice, the door hinged with a > latch but do not remember a seal on teh door. > > He may have refined the design since tho. > > One other thot, the reason an air tight works so well > is you dont have drafts from the stove sucking air > through windows (hatches) etc as they have an outside > air source, so maybe weld a smaller pipe (what size > pipe i dunno..3/4"??) somewhere near the bottom for an > air intake & run that into your cockpit combing? > > OK, so a changeover when it rots out (what 15 years as > Brent sez) would take more than 15 mins but if you > have your welder handy, notahelluvalot more. | 16411|16383|2008-02-01 21:02:51|J & H Fuller|Re: Boat heater|I can still remember melting an aluminum hot plate when I used it over a wood fire, more to the point, so can my wife. John. You asked Could one use an aluminium bottle for a wood stove? Or would the fire get too hot? I have two reject 20ld bottles. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 31/01/2008 8:30 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16412|16383|2008-02-02 03:58:21|sae140|Re: Boat heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Guys, > > Can't supply a drawing but for Bob Jensen's heaters > imagine a 20 lb propane bottle with a 4" pipe welded > to the top. It's been a while but the welds on the one > I saw looked like they might be tig work they were so > nice. the handles on the top of the tank had been > removed & cleaned up real nice, the door hinged with a > latch but do not remember a seal on teh door. > Hi Shane - it's that door that I'm really curious about - to my way of thinking with a vertical bottle you really need an opening higher up to load the stove, and a second opening somewhere towards the bottom to remove the ash. If the bottle was horizontal of course, then one door can easily do both jobs (Jotul box stoves etc) - but it's footprint will be larger. BTW - has anyone ever tried to make the DIY equivalent of an Eberspacher ? Colin| 16413|16383|2008-02-02 04:06:02|sae140|Re: Boat heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > BTW - has anyone ever tried to make the DIY equivalent of an Eberspacher ? > Just in case you don't know what I'm referring to: http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating C| 16414|16383|2008-02-02 12:12:43|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Boat heater|Colin, it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em stacked up at the back of the shop but did not investigate further. The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & all set up for it, why not give him a call? Shane Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 16415|16383|2008-02-02 12:53:10|Bill Jaine|Re: Boat heater|I have been very interested in the ZODI heater...since it sits outside you don't have any risk of co poisoning etc. you can see it at http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodihotventhp.html it is also not expensive Bill SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Colin, > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > investigate further. > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > Shane > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers yahoo.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1255 - Release Date: 2/1/2008 9:59 AM > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16416|16383|2008-02-02 16:37:31|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|That would be easy to make yourself and build into a steel boat in the building stage. With a space far better insulated than a tent, it could use a fraction the energy used to heat a tent. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > I have been very interested in the ZODI heater...since it sits outside > you don't have any risk of co poisoning etc. > you can see it at > > http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodihotventhp.html > > it is also not expensive > Bill > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Colin, > > > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > > investigate further. > > > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > > > Shane > > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to > > Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers yahoo.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1255 - Release Date: 2/1/2008 9:59 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16417|16383|2008-02-03 12:38:05|slade green|Re: Dickenson conversion|I used a loften dickenson model myself but I'm sure you can use any one as long as the wood is pre cut to be the right size. All that is required is a steel coffe can that will fit inside the cylindrical burn chamber. This is really to avoid the nasty mess of cleaning the ash up after. Also keep a pair of vice grips handy for this operation so that You don't have to wait for either of these items to cool down. The Lofton was good because of large box body. It definitly works and runs hot but lacks any finese of an airtight. Christophe Make sure it is a steel can, the aluminum turns into a puddle of aluminum by the second hour. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16418|16384|2008-02-03 12:50:15|slade green|Re: Order for Brents book.|Hey I want a new one to. Can you give me that address. Christophe "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: Hi Brent, Just to let you know I sent off (this morning) US$40.00 in cash, to your Royston address for a copy of the latest edition of your book. It is more than you request but I only had two $20.00 notes so enjoy a beer on me when you receive it. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16419|16419|2008-02-03 12:58:23|cptcrunch100|Determining your steel boat Hunter rating|Basically this determines how many Hunter style sailboats your steel sailboat can bust through until your boat looses all momentum from hull speed. Note, the Hunter sailboats are lined up beam to beam. Slade Green weighs in a about 10 ton and has an approx hull speed of 5.6 knots. I give her a rating of 6. Christophe| 16420|16419|2008-02-03 13:17:15|Tom|Re: Determining your steel boat Hunter rating|Love to see a vidio clip of that! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "cptcrunch100" To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Determining your steel boat Hunter rating > Basically this determines how many Hunter style sailboats your steel > sailboat can bust through until your boat looses all momentum from hull > speed. Note, the Hunter sailboats are lined up beam to beam. > > Slade Green weighs in a about 10 ton and has an approx hull speed of > 5.6 knots. I give her a rating of 6. > > Christophe > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 16421|16421|2008-02-03 13:24:25|Carl Anderson|What do you use for standing rigging?|I would like to know what folks are using for their standing rigging. I am leaning to galvanized 1X7 EHS but have heard that it might not be the best for boating use. 7X7 galvanized was recommended but apparently is no longer made in sizes above 1/4". The "pros" always seem to go to 1X19 316 SS but that isn't much stronger (the figures I'm getting for 3/8" is 17,000 lbs vs 14,500 for the EHS) and is much harder to work with (splice). Brent, what do you think is adequate strength for rigging the 36? I've seen some boats use 5/16" 1X7 galvanized with a strength of around 10,000 lbs. I am also going with eye splices as they eliminate the hard spot of terminal fittings which leads to early fatigue. Also a proper splice should have near 100% the strength of the wire. What was recommended there is a "fishermans" splice if anyone has heard of that. thanks, Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com| 16422|16384|2008-02-03 14:18:52|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Order for Brents book.|To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 for postage to the above address. Orders within Canada are $5 shipping. International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping. Brent lives on board with no computer connection, so keep in mind that replies can some times take longer, depending on his location at the time (he travels up and down the BC coast). Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor slade green wrote: > Hey I want a new one to. Can you give me that address. > Christophe > > "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Just to let you know I sent off (this morning) US$40.00 in cash, to your > Royston address for a copy of the latest edition of your book. > > It is more than you request but I only had two $20.00 notes so enjoy a > beer on me when you receive it. > | 16423|16423|2008-02-03 14:21:54|mickeyolaf|Roberts Spray|Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in there for a few issues. Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, bulkheads, cabins laid out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U never know what the owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have never been cheaper. It's at 731-288-4864. How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat?| 16424|16421|2008-02-03 16:36:15|peter_d_wiley|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would like to know what folks are using for their standing rigging. > > I am leaning to galvanized 1X7 EHS but have heard that it might not be > the best for boating use. 7X7 galvanized was recommended but apparently > is no longer made in sizes above 1/4". Dunno who told you that but Bullivants still list it. http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=14 > > The "pros" always seem to go to 1X19 316 SS but that isn't much stronger > (the figures I'm getting for 3/8" is 17,000 lbs vs 14,500 for the EHS) > and is much harder to work with (splice). I personally would NOT use s/steel on cost grounds, first up, and more importantly because of its propensity to fail without warning. Here is a classic example of where paying more gets you less. It's a bit stiffer than galv - generally - but the real advantage to most people is, it's nice and shiny. If the stuff was any goos, we'd have used it on our shipboard winches etc. We never did, for anything other than the occasional short strop where contamination from zinc was important. > > Brent, what do you think is adequate strength for rigging the 36? > > I've seen some boats use 5/16" 1X7 galvanized with a strength of around > 10,000 lbs. > > I am also going with eye splices as they eliminate the hard spot of > terminal fittings which leads to early fatigue. Also a proper splice > should have near 100% the strength of the wire. What was recommended > there is a "fishermans" splice if anyone has heard of that. You should use solid eyes everywhere a shackle or toggle pin is going through, not open eyes. Open eyes allow kinking of the wire and upsetting of the shackle. It's commonly done, but it's still sloppy practice and stresses the shackles/wire in a way that de-rates it. Personally I'd use alumin swages around a solid thimble and pay someone to do it. Should be dirt cheap if you do all the prep work, or an outfit like Bullivants can do the whole thing for you if you tell them the eye to eye lengths you need. I've seen my professional riggers put in eye splices at sea and it cost us so much time that we looked into buying our own h/duty swaging outfit. We could already do wires up to 12mm dia but the big trawl warps were 22mm dia and putting eye splices in them was a real effort. PDW| 16425|16421|2008-02-03 17:33:21|Carl Anderson|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Dunno who told you that but Bullivants still list it. > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=14 > Yes I've found it overseas. Seems the shipping to North America makes it cost much more than buying anything else locally. Guess that I should have been more specific about where I'm at. > I personally would NOT use s/steel on cost grounds, first up, and more > importantly because of its propensity to fail without warning. Here is > a classic example of where paying more gets you less. It's a bit > stiffer than galv - generally - but the real advantage to most people > is, it's nice and shiny. If the stuff was any goos, we'd have used it > on our shipboard winches etc. We never did, for anything other than > the occasional short strop where contamination from zinc was important. > That is what I've found as I've stated earlier. > You should use solid eyes everywhere a shackle or toggle pin is going > through, not open eyes. Open eyes allow kinking of the wire and > upsetting of the shackle. It's commonly done, but it's still sloppy > practice and stresses the shackles/wire in a way that de-rates it. > > Personally I'd use alumin swages around a solid thimble and pay > someone to do it. Should be dirt cheap if you do all the prep work, or > an outfit like Bullivants can do the whole thing for you if you tell > them the eye to eye lengths you need. I've seen my professional > riggers put in eye splices at sea and it cost us so much time that we > looked into buying our own h/duty swaging outfit. We could already do > wires up to 12mm dia but the big trawl warps were 22mm dia and putting > eye splices in them was a real effort. > > PDW > I'm not sure what you mean by open eyes. I have looked for "solid cast thimbles" in galvanized steel but can only find them, in North America, made from either stainless steel or aluminum. If using aluminum sleeves, I would think that the galvanic corrosion between the steel, zinc and aluminum would eventually cause the lower end eyes to fail on all the shrouds and stays. I'll go with a proper spliced eye that is parceled & served. Thanks, Carl| 16426|16423|2008-02-03 18:24:41|kingsknight4life|Re: Roberts Spray|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in there for a few issues. > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, bulkheads, cabins laid > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U never know what the > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have never been cheaper. It's > at 731-288-4864. > How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat? > Thanks Mickey I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So far there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( Right now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and help. The boat sems interesting. Rowland| 16427|16423|2008-02-03 21:48:13|mickeyolaf|Re: Roberts Spray|Page 73 of February, 2008 of 48 North. Add 2461. classads48@... As for your uncle, wait him out. Get a judgement filed against him. He'll get money from somewhere someday and then u can take it. Last week in the Sun it was reported that a guy who won the lottery (many millions) while in Jail is now being sued by his victims for crimes he committed 20 years before. Add says"36'Bruce Roberts Spray Design, corten steel, professionally finished, faired/ primed. Bright and airy main cabin w/custom windows, 7000# ballast, 50 hp diesel, 7 hours run time. Approx 75% complete. Fwd and aft cabins laid out w/buks and bulkheads. 12' beam and 4' draft. Located Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in > there for a few issues. > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, > bulkheads, cabins laid > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U > never know what the > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have > never been cheaper. It's > > at 731-288-4864. > > How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat? > > > Thanks Mickey > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So far > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( Right > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and help. > The boat sems interesting. > Rowland > | 16428|16428|2008-02-04 01:22:10|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For project scheduler , mechanical & field cost estim|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (2-211-68) Requirements: • Male/Female, 30 years old • Bachelor degree (S1) in Engineering • Has at least 2nd - 3rd years working experience similar experienced record in Engineering Project • Familiar with Primavera Enterprise, MS Project, Power point, MS Word, MS Excel, etc • Technical, detail oriented problem solver • Willing to work and relocate in remote location for long term • Good Command in English Mechanical (2-211-93) Requirements: • S1 or D3 degree majoring in Mechanical Engineering • Having the experience of Maintenance and repair Rotary Equipment such as Crushing Machine, Pumps and Conveyor • Having Experience in MILLWRIGHT : pulley alignment, gear box, motors • Able to speak and write good English Field Cost Estimator (2-211-50) Requirements: • Willing to be located and working in jobsite at Tembagapura, Papua. • Contract based for 6 months (contract will be reviewed per 6 months based on the performance and needs) • Education background is Undergraduate (S1) as a Mechanical Engineer or Civil Engineer from reputable university. • Have working experience for 2-5 years in estimating project budget from start until completion of the project (man-hours, material and equipment). • Have knowledge and can operate computer software: WinEst (cost estimate), AutoCAD, Primavera and Ms. Office. An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter.| 16429|16429|2008-02-04 06:51:24|realtabooga|Hello! I'm new to the group!|Hello! I'm new to the group. I am very interested in learning more about this type of boat building. I've seen pics here and at another site of the moon of moab. I think it is perfect.| 16430|16430|2008-02-04 06:55:01|ndr_jenna|Big-Group of Chicks and Guys-Engage in Group-Sex|Big-Group of Chicks and Guys-Engage in Group-Sex Play Download Guy in Socks Eats Chicks Pussy then gets his Hard Cock in her Pussy Play Download [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16431|13660|2008-02-04 15:11:11|sv_roan1|Re: Swain Sailboat|Built in 1998 in my yard in comox and then on Minto Road for sand blasting and painting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? Link > shows no details. > > Thanks... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex Christie > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 16432|16423|2008-02-05 21:34:55|brentswain38|Re: Roberts Spray|Roberts spray is an abortion, slower than a bureaucrat, and grossly overweight. The many imitation wooden boat nooks and crannies make them a mainternance headache. They make a good houseboat , but not much else. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Page 73 of February, 2008 of 48 North. Add 2461. > classads48@... > > As for your uncle, wait him out. Get a judgement filed against him. He'll get money from > somewhere someday and then u can take it. > Last week in the Sun it was reported that a guy who won the lottery (many millions) while > in Jail is now being sued by his victims for crimes he committed 20 years before. > > Add says"36'Bruce Roberts Spray Design, corten steel, professionally finished, faired/ > primed. Bright and airy main cabin w/custom windows, 7000# ballast, 50 hp diesel, 7 > hours run time. Approx 75% complete. Fwd and aft cabins laid out w/buks and bulkheads. > 12' beam and 4' draft. Located Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in > > there for a few issues. > > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, > > bulkheads, cabins laid > > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U > > never know what the > > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have > > never been cheaper. It's > > > at 731-288-4864. > > > How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat? > > > > > Thanks Mickey > > > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So far > > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( Right > > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort > > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and help. > > The boat sems interesting. > > Rowland > > > | 16433|16383|2008-02-05 21:36:25|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|Alex's landlord in Courtenay was also welding them up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Colin, > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > investigate further. > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > Shane > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > | 16434|16383|2008-02-05 21:48:14|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat heater|Any one have any picture of the end product? brentswain38 wrote: Alex's landlord in Courtenay was also welding them up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Colin, > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > investigate further. > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > Shane > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16435|16421|2008-02-05 21:52:10|brentswain38|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|5/16th high tensile 1x7 is excellent rigging wire for a 36. It costs around $24 in a scrapyard for enough to rig a 36. The advantage it has over 7X7 is big strands that can take a lot more corrosion than the tiny strands in 7X7 and they hold the galvanizing a lot better. It's a good idea to paint all your riging before putting it up. I painted mine with epoxy tar, wrapped them in hockey tape , painted them with another coat of epoxy tar, then snapped 3/8th ID split black poly tubing over them .I figure it will last my lifetime. If you use stainless nicopress fitings , you have all the strength you need in one sleeve. If you use aluminium sleeves, then the only way you'll get 100% strength is to put a flemish eye in the ends and put two aluminium sleeves over it , one to hold the thimble in and one to hold the end of the flemish eye( molly hogan). 1X7 , like 1X19 is to smooth to hold with a single aluminium sleeve.Having stainless sleeves put on is not that expensive. Most guys do one end, step the mast using cable clamps on the other end, then take the shrouds in two at a time and have the bottom ends done, leaving the mast standing. It can be hard to bend the high tensile 1X7 around the thimble. I found it best to figure out where the thimble end of the sleeve will go , mark that point with a felt pen, then bend two 90 degree bends at that point. Then when you wrap it around the thimble, the two 90 degree corners will come together. Do this before taking the rigging in to get the stainless sleeves pressed on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would like to know what folks are using for their standing rigging. > > I am leaning to galvanized 1X7 EHS but have heard that it might not be > the best for boating use. 7X7 galvanized was recommended but apparently > is no longer made in sizes above 1/4". > > The "pros" always seem to go to 1X19 316 SS but that isn't much stronger > (the figures I'm getting for 3/8" is 17,000 lbs vs 14,500 for the EHS) > and is much harder to work with (splice). > > Brent, what do you think is adequate strength for rigging the 36? > > I've seen some boats use 5/16" 1X7 galvanized with a strength of around > 10,000 lbs. > > I am also going with eye splices as they eliminate the hard spot of > terminal fittings which leads to early fatigue. Also a proper splice > should have near 100% the strength of the wire. What was recommended > there is a "fishermans" splice if anyone has heard of that. > > thanks, > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > | 16436|16421|2008-02-05 21:55:59|brentswain38|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|You could also use the poured sockets shown in my book. You can make enough in an hour to rig the whole boat. They are the only type of ends considered reliable enought to be legal for bridges, elevators, etc. Have them galvanized. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > Dunno who told you that but Bullivants still list it. > > > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=14 > > > > Yes I've found it overseas. Seems the shipping to North America makes > it cost much more than buying anything else locally. Guess that I > should have been more specific about where I'm at. > > > I personally would NOT use s/steel on cost grounds, first up, and more > > importantly because of its propensity to fail without warning. Here is > > a classic example of where paying more gets you less. It's a bit > > stiffer than galv - generally - but the real advantage to most people > > is, it's nice and shiny. If the stuff was any goos, we'd have used it > > on our shipboard winches etc. We never did, for anything other than > > the occasional short strop where contamination from zinc was important. > > > > That is what I've found as I've stated earlier. > > > You should use solid eyes everywhere a shackle or toggle pin is going > > through, not open eyes. Open eyes allow kinking of the wire and > > upsetting of the shackle. It's commonly done, but it's still sloppy > > practice and stresses the shackles/wire in a way that de-rates it. > > > > Personally I'd use alumin swages around a solid thimble and pay > > someone to do it. Should be dirt cheap if you do all the prep work, or > > an outfit like Bullivants can do the whole thing for you if you tell > > them the eye to eye lengths you need. I've seen my professional > > riggers put in eye splices at sea and it cost us so much time that we > > looked into buying our own h/duty swaging outfit. We could already do > > wires up to 12mm dia but the big trawl warps were 22mm dia and putting > > eye splices in them was a real effort. > > > > PDW > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by open eyes. I have looked for "solid cast > thimbles" in galvanized steel but can only find them, in North America, > made from either stainless steel or aluminum. If using aluminum > sleeves, I would think that the galvanic corrosion between the steel, > zinc and aluminum would eventually cause the lower end eyes to fail on > all the shrouds and stays. I'll go with a proper spliced eye that is > parceled & served. > > Thanks, > Carl > | 16437|16423|2008-02-05 21:59:03|brentswain38|Re: Roberts Spray|Go after Dans Precast and Can Am scrapyard. Dans knew the guy was a sleazy druggie and thus had every reason to know he was stealing the boat. They have assets. Criminal action is the cops job, civil court action is entirely up to you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in > there for a few issues. > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, > bulkheads, cabins laid > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U > never know what the > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have > never been cheaper. It's > > at 731-288-4864. > > How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat? > > > Thanks Mickey > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So far > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( Right > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and help. > The boat sems interesting. > Rowland > | 16438|16383|2008-02-05 22:02:24|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|I consider them a tent heater, not a full time boat heater. For that you need something bigger , more airtight, and with a flat top for cooking. A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs pay a deposit of $35 on each one so offer the pub owner his deposit for one . Scapyards also have them for scrap prices, which may or may not be cheaper. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Any one have any picture of the end product? > > brentswain38 wrote: Alex's landlord in Courtenay was also welding them up. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Colin, > > > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > > investigate further. > > > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > > > Shane > > > > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. > Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at > http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16439|16383|2008-02-05 22:18:32|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat heater|Thanks Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning on using. on a different note what size turnbuckles are you using on you 31' brentswain38 wrote: I consider them a tent heater, not a full time boat heater. For that you need something bigger , more airtight, and with a flat top for cooking. A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs pay a deposit of $35 on each one so offer the pub owner his deposit for one . Scapyards also have them for scrap prices, which may or may not be cheaper. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Any one have any picture of the end product? > > brentswain38 wrote: Alex's landlord in Courtenay was also welding them up. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Colin, > > > > it's been a while, but the unit I saw was with the 20 > > lb propane bottle standing upright with 1 door. > > > > However, it HAS been a while (2001?) since I looked at > > one in any detail & Bob may have evolved his design. > > > > Last december I was in Bob's shop & noticed he had em > > stacked up at the back of the shop but did not > > investigate further. > > > > The guy does really nice work & in very reasonable & > > all set up for it, why not give him a call? > > > > Shane > > > > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. > Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at > http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16440|16383|2008-02-05 23:08:56|kingsknight4life|Re: Boat heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Thanks > Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning on using. I used to. . A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > >Brent I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. Rowland| 16441|16423|2008-02-06 00:09:47|peter_d_wiley|Re: Roberts Spray|The other beauty of civil action is that proof is on the balance of probabilities, not beyond reasonable doubt. If a lot of other scrapyards turned it down as too dodgy, it's a pretty good indication of the way a judge is likely to decide. No jury in civil cases either. At least, that's how it works here in Australia. If you do sue, sue the individuals as well as their businesses. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Go after Dans Precast and Can Am scrapyard. Dans knew the guy was a > sleazy druggie and thus had every reason to know he was stealing the > boat. They have assets. Criminal action is the cops job, civil court > action is entirely up to you. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in > > there for a few issues. > > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp > diesel, > > bulkheads, cabins laid > > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U > > never know what the > > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate > have > > never been cheaper. It's > > > at 731-288-4864. > > > How's it going with recovery/restitution re your boat? > > > > > Thanks Mickey > > > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So > far > > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( > Right > > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort > > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and > help. > > The boat sems interesting. > > Rowland > > > | 16442|16383|2008-02-06 00:13:33|peter_d_wiley|Re: Boat heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Thanks > > Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning on > using. > I used to. > > . A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > >Brent > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. Depends on where you are. I have a nice little s/steel beer keg that was going to turn into a heater. Still might if I can't find any 12" OD s/steel pipe. I think 24" OD is a bit big. Other source for cheap/free steel pipe in large diameters is water heaters. Pretty heavy wall and strong, often there's a pinhole or maybe a dead heating element. I've used these things as caissons to fill with concrete when sinking piers in the past. PDW| 16443|16383|2008-02-06 00:25:33|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat heater|Yep 24" would be a bit big. ITs 16" dia. X 24" long :-) I was going to cut a 12" wide section off and then split that so I could add it back on turn up on eash side and then put a 1/4" flat plate on it. Everything else should be close to what Brents book has. Aaron peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Thanks > > Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning on > using. > I used to. > > . A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > >Brent > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. Depends on where you are. I have a nice little s/steel beer keg that was going to turn into a heater. Still might if I can't find any 12" OD s/steel pipe. I think 24" OD is a bit big. Other source for cheap/free steel pipe in large diameters is water heaters. Pretty heavy wall and strong, often there's a pinhole or maybe a dead heating element. I've used these things as caissons to fill with concrete when sinking piers in the past. PDW --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16444|16444|2008-02-06 03:45:53|Matt|cheap roller furling|Hi Folks, A little off topic, but i posed this question on another forum and one response referred to a design possibly by Brent. Here's the question i posed: Hi Folks, My 170 sq ft jib is a right pain to get down in a hurry, and the storm jib rig is yet to be perfected. Has anyone seen a cheap, home made jib roller furling system that i can get pictures for on the internet? And, what are the pros and cons of using the roller furling as a kind of reefing system, leaving the sail partly furled to reduce sail area? Thanks, Matt| 16445|16383|2008-02-06 09:20:52|Ben Okopnik|Re: Boat heater|On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 04:08:55AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > > A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > >Brent > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. The ones the bars here use are definitely SS. They're stacked out back of the bar as they're emptied, next to the fence, and I get all kinds of design ideas every time I walk down this particular alley. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16446|16423|2008-02-06 21:41:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Roberts Spray|I agree with Brent! I can't understand why the Spray is so popular. I know of one that was within 100 miles of Opua, NZ until the wind went against him. Two weeks later he finally made it in. You can't make an apartment block go to windward. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2008 3:34:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Roberts Spray Roberts spray is an abortion, slower than a bureaucrat, and grossly overweight. The many imitation wooden boat nooks and crannies make them a mainternance headache. They make a good houseboat , but not much else. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Page 73 of February, 2008 of 48 North. Add 2461. > classads48@. .. > > As for your uncle, wait him out. Get a judgement filed against him. He'll get money from > somewhere someday and then u can take it. > Last week in the Sun it was reported that a guy who won the lottery (many millions) while > in Jail is now being sued by his victims for crimes he committed 20 years before. > > Add says"36'Bruce Roberts Spray Design, corten steel, professionally finished, faired/ > primed. Bright and airy main cabin w/custom windows, 7000# ballast, 50 hp diesel, 7 > hours run time. Approx 75% complete. Fwd and aft cabins laid out w/buks and bulkheads. > 12' beam and 4' draft. Located Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mickeyolaf" > > wrote: > > > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been in > > there for a few issues. > > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp diesel, > > bulkheads, cabins laid > > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. U > > never know what the > > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate have > > never been cheaper. It's > > > at 731-288-4864. > > > How's it going with recovery/restitutio n re your boat? > > > > > Thanks Mickey > > > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So far > > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( Right > > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's sort > > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and help. > > The boat sems interesting. > > Rowland > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16447|16383|2008-02-07 01:15:30|kingsknight4life|Re: Boat heater|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 04:08:55AM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > > > > > A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > > > >Brent > > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. > > The ones the bars here use are definitely SS. They're stacked out back > of the bar as they're emptied, next to the fence, and I get all kinds of > design ideas every time I walk down this particular alley. :) > > >Maybe I'm wrong, I never really checked "that closely". After unloading them, counting them and lugging them around the place and stocking up each individual bar, I was tired of looking at them. Rowland| 16448|16448|2008-02-07 05:56:03|Gayle Humphrey|Hi|Hi, I am new and not very computer literate. Can someone tell me how to get to the actual Brent Swain boat designs ? My husband and I are looking for sailboat designs in the 36' to 45' range. Thanks for your help. Gayle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16449|16448|2008-02-07 08:55:39|Ray|Re: Hi|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gayle Humphrey wrote: > > Hi, > > I am new and not very computer literate. Can someone tell me how to get to the actual Brent Swain boat designs ? My husband and I are looking for sailboat designs in the 36' to 45' range. > > Thanks for your help. > > > Gayle Gayle - To see finished/construction sequence pics - look in the "Photos" and "Files" section of this Yahoo group. To get the actual design - Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 for postage to the above address. Orders within Canada are $5 shipping. International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping.| 16450|16421|2008-02-07 11:11:43|silascrosby|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|Carl, I have been using the 5/16 galv. 1x7 wire. It was installed at launching 15 yrs ago with SS sleeves and Galv open thimbles.No other protection or surface covering. We have had plenty of shock loads on the rig with accidental gybes and hitting rocks at significant speeds.I can find no deformity of the thimbles or broken strands. I brushed on some cheap white paint up to ~ 8' above the deck after 10 yrs only because I had the paint and brush out doing another project. There was no rust at that point and none now. I think we were very lucky with the particular batch of wire from Northern Rope in Courtenay. We have had only one year in the tropics in that time. There is a little rust at the bottom end of the Staysail stay. Surprisingly there is none on the rest of that stay despite the frequent use of bronze hanks in strong winds on that stay. The forestay inside the Swain-type furler seems OK but really should be replaced since it cannot be inspected. The bottom terminal is a Crosby poured socket. As you know many riggers advise replacing SS wire every 10 yrs or less in tropical use. Not many people do this mostly because of the expense, I think. We have also all heard of many rig failures from swages breaking. I don't know how often the SS wire breaks in mid-span. Probably rarely. I worked as a rigger for a year and ,of course did exclusively SS work. So,on this boat I was very reluctant to put Galv wire to hold up my nice Isomat spar. However it has worked out very well and I will replace all the standing rigging with the same stuff prior to the next big trip. Brion Toss in 'The Riggers Apprentice' wrote some approving notes on Galv wire which helped to persuade me 15 yrs ago. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > I would like to know what folks are using for their standing rigging. > > I am leaning to galvanized 1X7 EHS but have heard that it might not be > the best for boating use. 7X7 galvanized was recommended but apparently > is no longer made in sizes above 1/4". > > The "pros" always seem to go to 1X19 316 SS but that isn't much stronger > (the figures I'm getting for 3/8" is 17,000 lbs vs 14,500 for the EHS) > and is much harder to work with (splice). > > Brent, what do you think is adequate strength for rigging the 36? > > I've seen some boats use 5/16" 1X7 galvanized with a strength of around > 10,000 lbs. > > I am also going with eye splices as they eliminate the hard spot of > terminal fittings which leads to early fatigue. Also a proper splice > should have near 100% the strength of the wire. What was recommended > there is a "fishermans" splice if anyone has heard of that. > > thanks, > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > | 16451|16451|2008-02-07 15:13:07|joeearsley|Ballast Source|I was a little worried after speaking to Carl (MOMab) about finding lead for my hull. I located a seller of lead in Tacoma, Washington. He has drums of bullets (unfired and copper coated), spent bullets, wheel weights, sheet and ingots. Currently the ingots go for $1.25US/# and everything else is $1.00US/#. The spent bullets are small in size and look like they would pour nicely into a keel and melt pretty easy due to the large surface area to mass ratio. The price goes up and down with the market. He says he gets a drum of spent bullets in a month. He was pretty interested in my 4500# order. Tacoma Metals Incý - more info » 1754 Thorne Rd, Tacoma, WA (253) 627-1440ý Alaska joe| 16452|16421|2008-02-07 15:21:07|sv_roan1|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|Carl: I put 5/16 galvanized wire on my boat when I first rigged her. I purchased my 5/16 galanized wire at the scrap yard by the pound. I sailed her for a few seasons with the wire. After a couple years of hard use, I sold the mast and wire to another Brent boat, who has had the rig on for some years with little problems. I used eyes then swagged the wire. The eyes where connected through fork to fork galavized turn buckles (british made), which I also purchased new at a scrap yard. If I ever have to rig another boat I would not hesitate to use galvanized wire again, as SS always seem to get surface rust when in the tropics and is really expensive. Hope this helps. Billy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You could also use the poured sockets shown in my book. You can make > enough in an hour to rig the whole boat. They are the only type of > ends considered reliable enought to be legal for bridges, elevators, > etc. Have them galvanized. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > Dunno who told you that but Bullivants still list it. > > > > > > http://www.bullivants.com/front/wire_rope.php?mod=2&id_dir=14 > > > > > > > Yes I've found it overseas. Seems the shipping to North America > makes > > it cost much more than buying anything else locally. Guess that I > > should have been more specific about where I'm at. > > > > > I personally would NOT use s/steel on cost grounds, first up, > and more > > > importantly because of its propensity to fail without warning. > Here is > > > a classic example of where paying more gets you less. It's a bit > > > stiffer than galv - generally - but the real advantage to most > people > > > is, it's nice and shiny. If the stuff was any goos, we'd have > used it > > > on our shipboard winches etc. We never did, for anything other > than > > > the occasional short strop where contamination from zinc was > important. > > > > > > > That is what I've found as I've stated earlier. > > > > > You should use solid eyes everywhere a shackle or toggle pin is > going > > > through, not open eyes. Open eyes allow kinking of the wire and > > > upsetting of the shackle. It's commonly done, but it's still > sloppy > > > practice and stresses the shackles/wire in a way that de-rates it. > > > > > > Personally I'd use alumin swages around a solid thimble and pay > > > someone to do it. Should be dirt cheap if you do all the prep > work, or > > > an outfit like Bullivants can do the whole thing for you if you > tell > > > them the eye to eye lengths you need. I've seen my professional > > > riggers put in eye splices at sea and it cost us so much time > that we > > > looked into buying our own h/duty swaging outfit. We could > already do > > > wires up to 12mm dia but the big trawl warps were 22mm dia and > putting > > > eye splices in them was a real effort. > > > > > > PDW > > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by open eyes. I have looked for "solid > cast > > thimbles" in galvanized steel but can only find them, in North > America, > > made from either stainless steel or aluminum. If using aluminum > > sleeves, I would think that the galvanic corrosion between the > steel, > > zinc and aluminum would eventually cause the lower end eyes to fail > on > > all the shrouds and stays. I'll go with a proper spliced eye that > is > > parceled & served. > > > > Thanks, > > Carl > > > | 16453|16453|2008-02-07 18:25:00|knutfgarshol|BS 36 feet|Hi, I am sure I can find it somewhere on the Forum, but... Does anybody have the standard area of the mainsail for the BS36 for me? When launching Archetype in Ft Lauderdale I got a comment about the boat from one of the surveyors. He had several Atlantic crossings behind him on different types of sailboats and he liked the BS36 a lot. One thing he wondered about was the low bow freeboard.When running before the wind in heavy weather, he asked if she would "submarine" the bow when hitting the through after surfing down a wave. I told him that several BS36 have made cirumnavigations, but that I have not done it myself, so could not really tell. Personally, I would probably heave to long before that would become a real problem, but it is still interesting to know what your experiences are? Any views on this matter? -Knut-| 16454|16448|2008-02-07 20:58:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Hi|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gayle Humphrey > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am new and not very computer literate. Can someone tell me how > to get to the actual Brent Swain boat designs ? My husband and I are > looking for sailboat designs in the 36' to 45' range. > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > Gayle > > Gayle - > > To see finished/construction sequence pics - look in the "Photos" > and "Files" section of this Yahoo group. To get the actual design - > Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > Royston, British Columbia, > Canada > V0R-2V0 > > To order a copy of Brent's book > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 > for postage to the above address. Orders within > Canada are $5 shipping. > > International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping. > Gayle, While the above mentioned posts will tell you where to see pics and order Brent's book (which is a must for ANY steel boat builder) his plans are not included in the book. I'm pretty sure at the address above you can send away for his plaans. Brent is always on here and he will be able to tell you soon enough. Just don't buy his book expecting construction plans for a boat, there is LOTS of info. on how to build everything else your boat will need though. eg. anchor windlass, watermaker, stoves etc. Rowland| 16455|16421|2008-02-08 00:25:51|Paul Wilson|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel rigging..... Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging are far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in stainless steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or fatigue in the wire. If stainless wire was as bad as many people let on, masts would be falling down all the time. There are many under-rigged boats and poorly rigged boats but the fact is that the masts seems to stay up somehow. With proper design (safety margins) used on a proper cruising boat I don't see stainless steel being any problem at all. It's shameful what many rigging shops call a good swage. A swage shaped like a banana seems to be the norm on a lot of cruising boats. I blame poor design, poor workmanship, poor tooling, and lack of maintenance for most of the failures. All of these things are preventable. Has anyone ever seen the wire break in the middle? It is always at a fitting or under the roller furling where the rigging gets ignored. Galvanized rigging will let you know when it is bad (rust) but so will stainless if you take a bother to look at it. Nothing on a boat is fit and forget. Rigging shops who say to replace everything SS every 10 years are just looking for money and covering their asses. If they did it right in the first place it would be fine. I rigged my boat in 1992 and have spent a large part of my time in the tropics. I see no reason to replace it and would sail it anywhere. By the way, all my rigging is 5/16 inch on my 36 and the fittings are Castlok. All of it was obtained as parts from another boat and cost $3000 including mast and boom. You can get lucky :). I like galvanized rigging, but I think properly done, there is nothing wrong with stainless rigging except the cost. If I was to rig again, I would seriously look at the plastic coated wire made by Brunton Shaw. http://www.brunton-shaw.co.uk/composite.html I have seen a few boats with it now and the owners were very happy with it. I am not sure what it costs but they said it was much cheaper than stainless. On another note, in NZ where I am right now, the scrap yards are very reluctant to sell to the public. Everything is going to China. I have never seen any galvanized wire of any quality for sale in any scrap yard in the south pacific and the galvanized wire for sale in the smaller sizes generally has very poor galvanizing on it. Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16456|16456|2008-02-08 03:35:33|jubaprima|information|Good morning to everybody, my name is Palestinian lorenzo I am an Italian boy, I wanted to ask you who is able me' to give a help to be able to contact Brent Swain I would like to purchase a project for the construction of a boat. I thank you all for the help. Regards Palestini Lorenzo.| 16457|16456|2008-02-08 09:08:06|James Pronk|Re: information|I just cut and copied this from an earlier posting. Good luck Palestinian, To see finished/constructi on sequence pics - look in the "Photos" and "Files" section of this Yahoo group. To get the actual design - Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 for postage to the above address. Orders within Canada are $5 shipping. International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping Good luck Palestinian, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jubaprima" wrote: > > Good morning to everybody, > my name is Palestinian lorenzo I am an Italian boy, > I wanted to ask you who is able me' to give a help to be able to > contact Brent Swain > I would like to purchase a project for the construction of a boat. > I thank you all for the help. > Regards > Palestini Lorenzo. > | 16458|16448|2008-02-08 11:17:07|Ray|Re: Hi|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Gayle, > While the above mentioned posts will tell you where to see pics and > order Brent's book (which is a must for ANY steel boat builder) his > plans are not included in the book. I'm pretty sure at the address > above you can send away for his plaans. > Brent is always on here and he will be able to tell you soon enough. > Just don't buy his book expecting construction plans for a boat, > there is LOTS of info. on how to build everything else your boat will > need though. eg. anchor windlass, watermaker, stoves etc. > Rowland > Rowland - you're absolutely correct - thanks for squaring us away! Ray| 16459|16448|2008-02-08 16:30:55|brentswain38|Re: Hi|Plans for my 36 footer are $350, for the 40 footer they are $500 sent to the adress listed below. Where are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gayle Humphrey > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am new and not very computer literate. Can someone tell me > how > > to get to the actual Brent Swain boat designs ? My husband and I > are > > looking for sailboat designs in the 36' to 45' range. > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > > > > Gayle > > > > Gayle - > > > > To see finished/construction sequence pics - look in the "Photos" > > and "Files" section of this Yahoo group. To get the actual > design - > > Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > > Royston, British Columbia, > > Canada > > V0R-2V0 > > > > To order a copy of Brent's book > > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > > pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 > > for postage to the above address. Orders within > > Canada are $5 shipping. > > > > International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping. > > > Gayle, > While the above mentioned posts will tell you where to see pics and > order Brent's book (which is a must for ANY steel boat builder) his > plans are not included in the book. I'm pretty sure at the address > above you can send away for his plaans. > Brent is always on here and he will be able to tell you soon enough. > Just don't buy his book expecting construction plans for a boat, > there is LOTS of info. on how to build everything else your boat will > need though. eg. anchor windlass, watermaker, stoves etc. > Rowland > | 16460|16383|2008-02-08 16:35:33|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|They used to be aluminium. New ones are stainless. Try cut them with a knife to find out which it is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Thanks > > Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning on > using. > I used to. > > . A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > >Brent > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. > > Rowland > | 16461|16451|2008-02-08 18:09:38|theboilerflue|Re: Ballast Source|Well i found the lead i needed in victoria for 60 cents canadian a pound at williams scrap metal and iron in victoria. I guess if you took the coho ferry to point angeles it would be just a couple hours out of tacoma. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > I was a little worried after speaking to Carl (MOMab) about finding > lead for my hull. I located a seller of lead in Tacoma, Washington. > He has drums of bullets (unfired and copper coated), spent bullets, > wheel weights, sheet and ingots. Currently the ingots go for $1.25US/# > and everything else is $1.00US/#. The spent bullets are small in size > and look like they would pour nicely into a keel and melt pretty easy > due to the large surface area to mass ratio. The price goes up and > down with the market. He says he gets a drum of spent bullets in a > month. He was pretty interested in my 4500# order. > > Tacoma Metals Incý - more info » > 1754 Thorne Rd, Tacoma, WA > (253) 627-1440ý > > Alaska joe > | 16462|16444|2008-02-08 23:04:12|brentswain38|Re: cheap roller furling|My book tells you how to build your own. I've been using it for over 25 years no problem. Mine cost me $80 in 1982, and took a only few hours work. Most of my boats use the same rig. Only one moving part once it is set up. I use it all the time for reefing. The only problem is your sheet lead position changes when you reef. I just tie a loop over the sheet and pull it down until I get the right lead. Sewing a foam luf pad can flatten the sail when reefed ,if you get it the right shape. Been meaning to try that for decades. The bigger you make the drum, the easier it is to reef. I'd never go back to traditional ways of shortening headsails. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > A little off topic, but i posed this question on another forum and one > response referred to a design possibly by Brent. > Here's the question i posed: > Hi Folks, > My 170 sq ft jib is a right pain to get down in a hurry, and the storm > jib rig is yet to be perfected. > Has anyone seen a cheap, home made jib roller furling system that i > can get pictures for on the internet? > And, what are the pros and cons of using the roller furling as a kind > of reefing system, leaving the sail partly furled to reduce sail area? > Thanks, > Matt > | 16463|16453|2008-02-08 23:24:09|brentswain38|Re: BS 36 feet|Several diferent mast heights have been used. Lately most people have been going 46 ft off the deck , which would give you roughly 336 sq ft. Just measure the length of the foot along the boom, multiply by the height , then divide by two. With the full, conic ends of the boats , there is plenty of buoyancy in the bow, far more than you'd find in the deep V'd bow of many modern designs. Billy ran off hurricane force winds in his BS36 comming home from Hawaii, without a drogue, and made out just fine, with the self steering handling her well downwind. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfgarshol" wrote: > > Hi, I am sure I can find it somewhere on the Forum, but... > > Does anybody have the standard area of the mainsail for the BS36 for > me? > > When launching Archetype in Ft Lauderdale I got a comment about the > boat from one of the surveyors. He had several Atlantic crossings > behind him on different types of sailboats and he liked the BS36 a > lot. One thing he wondered about was the low bow freeboard.When > running before the wind in heavy weather, he asked if she > would "submarine" the bow when hitting the through after surfing down > a wave. I told him that several BS36 have made cirumnavigations, but > that I have not done it myself, so could not really tell. Personally, > I would probably heave to long before that would become a real > problem, but it is still interesting to know what your experiences are? > > Any views on this matter? > > -Knut- > | 16464|16448|2008-02-09 10:36:03|Gayle Humphrey|Re: Hi|We are landlocked in Missouri but want desperately to get back to the coast. We are both California natives. I was born overlooking the San Francisco Bay, lived and graduated from HS in Marin County which is just north of SF. Gayle brentswain38 wrote: Plans for my 36 footer are $350, for the 40 footer they are $500 sent to the adress listed below. Where are you? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gayle Humphrey > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am new and not very computer literate. Can someone tell me > how > > to get to the actual Brent Swain boat designs ? My husband and I > are > > looking for sailboat designs in the 36' to 45' range. > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > > > > Gayle > > > > Gayle - > > > > To see finished/construction sequence pics - look in the "Photos" > > and "Files" section of this Yahoo group. To get the actual > design - > > Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > > Royston, British Columbia, > > Canada > > V0R-2V0 > > > > To order a copy of Brent's book > > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > > pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 > > for postage to the above address. Orders within > > Canada are $5 shipping. > > > > International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping. > > > Gayle, > While the above mentioned posts will tell you where to see pics and > order Brent's book (which is a must for ANY steel boat builder) his > plans are not included in the book. I'm pretty sure at the address > above you can send away for his plaans. > Brent is always on here and he will be able to tell you soon enough. > Just don't buy his book expecting construction plans for a boat, > there is LOTS of info. on how to build everything else your boat will > need though. eg. anchor windlass, watermaker, stoves etc. > Rowland > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16465|16465|2008-02-09 11:22:57|seeratlas|Calculating water volume for closed cooling system|Anyone know of a site or reference that would give me a good starting point in guesstimating how much coolant/steel surface area I would need to do my skeg cooling system? I realize that I have to have the size/hp of motor, guesstimate on water temp etc. but am looking for a site or reference giving some guidelines based on actual experience as opposed to theory. There seems to be some debate here in the yard (surprise surprise hehehe) over how much is required. Thanks in advance. seer| 16466|16421|2008-02-09 11:26:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|On Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 09:25:50PM -0800, Paul Wilson wrote: > I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel rigging..... > > Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. [grin] I know how that goes. No worries - you make good technical sense even while cranky, which is all one can hope for. > I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging are > far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in stainless > steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or fatigue > in the wire. We're on the same page so far (and with a vengeance: to me, when an engineered system fails, it's almost *always* at the interfaces - whether it's mechanical, electrical, hydraulic... doesn't matter what it is.) However, here's the problem: there's almost _no_ way to exert quality control over the swaging, other than buying (e.g.) $$Norseman$$ fittings and doing it yourself. That's what I did on Ulysses, and that's what I've done on every boat I've owned whenever I saw even a hint of a fatigue or a crack on a fitting... but DAMN that's an expensive way to go. A poured socket on galvanized is something you could do yourself - and those are cheap and hard to screw up. Even the galvanized end fittings that the electric companies in many places use (pretty similar in design to StaLocs and Norsemans and such) are way, way cheaper. *And* galvanized is stronger (and thus more reliable) than stainless in a given diameter. To me, when you're rigging a new boat, or doing a complete re-rig of an old one, it's a no-brainer. It's when you have to redo one shroud at a time on an existing boat that questions arise. > It's shameful what many rigging shops call a good swage. A swage > shaped like a banana seems to be the norm on a lot of cruising boats. > I blame poor design, poor workmanship, poor tooling, and lack of > maintenance for most of the failures. Agreed - but most people buying boats these days want to know "how many can you sleep here" and "is the rug pretty?" The bed-sheety thingies on the big sticks, that's for some kind of weirdos who do all that Captain Ron stuff; nobody cares about that. As a result, we have exactly the situation that you're describing. > All of these things are preventable. Yes - but not by the customer. Unless you count knowing which shops do good work and only patronizing those (good luck with _that_ in a foreign country...) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16467|16383|2008-02-09 12:43:35|Gordon Schnell|Re: Boat heater|Hi all Gord here, in Vancouver. I have a couple of aluminum and a couple in SS. Originally planned to use them for tankage...wine and beer. They are available. Gord brentswain38 wrote: > > They used to be aluminium. New ones are stainless. Try cut them with > a knife to find out which it is. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks > > > Ok, I have a 24" piece of sch 10 SS pipe that I was planning > on > > using. > > I used to. > > > > . A stainless beer keg would be a good start on one. The pubs > > > pay a deposit of $35 on each one ..> Brent > > > > > >Brent > > I'm pretty sure kegs are made of aluminum. > > > > Rowland > > > > | 16468|13660|2008-02-09 13:14:39|slade green|Re: Hey Billy|Hey Billy it's Christophe of Slade Green. Yellow and Green steel boat. we met in Santa Maria. This craig list isn't for Roan 1 is it. sv_roan1 wrote: Built in 1998 in my yard in comox and then on Minto Road for sand blasting and painting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? Link > shows no details. > > Thanks... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > wrote: > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex Christie > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel Swain > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16469|16465|2008-02-09 14:50:15|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Calculating water volume for closed cooling system|Seer go to the Beta Marine site. http://www.betamarine.co.uk they have a pdf that covers your questions. I found my answers there. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Anyone know of a site or reference that would give me a good starting > point in guesstimating how much coolant/steel surface area I would > need to do my skeg cooling system? I realize that I have to have the > size/hp of motor, guesstimate on water temp etc. but am looking for a > site or reference giving some guidelines based on actual experience as > opposed to theory. There seems to be some debate here in the yard > (surprise surprise hehehe) over how much is required. > | 16470|16465|2008-02-09 15:30:14|brentswain38|Re: Calculating water volume for closed cooling system|In 1979 I replaced some keel cooling pipes on a tug that had operated in some warm waters since 1948 with no problems. They amounted to 1 1/2 sq ft per ten HP. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Seer go to the Beta Marine site. > > http://www.betamarine.co.uk they have a pdf that covers your questions. > > I found my answers there. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > > seeratlas wrote: > > Anyone know of a site or reference that would give me a good starting > > point in guesstimating how much coolant/steel surface area I would > > need to do my skeg cooling system? I realize that I have to have the > > size/hp of motor, guesstimate on water temp etc. but am looking for a > > site or reference giving some guidelines based on actual experience as > > opposed to theory. There seems to be some debate here in the yard > > (surprise surprise hehehe) over how much is required. > > > | 16471|22|2008-02-09 16:29:48|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Keel.pdf Uploaded by : lachica31 Description : BetaMarine Keel Cooling Data You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Keel.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, lachica31 | 16472|16465|2008-02-09 16:32:51|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Calculating water volume for closed cooling system|I have posted the Beta Marine PDF in the files section. See http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UBSuRwyCQdzTCe5dsG5FOb2CjD4q4Y-_rOjdcHkpGiTRyFV1lujRuQBJA05plNyPtFpm_PzzEeot3sPucjJwKD9RAa4vcpw/Keel.pdf Results is slightly more conservative than Brent's observation. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Anyone know of a site or reference that would give me a good starting > point in guesstimating how much coolant/steel surface area I would > need to do my skeg cooling system? I realize that I have to have the > size/hp of motor, guesstimate on water temp etc. but am looking for a > site or reference giving some guidelines based on actual experience as > opposed to theory. There seems to be some debate here in the yard > (surprise surprise hehehe) over how much is required. > | 16473|22|2008-02-09 17:32:09|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /KeelCoolingExtractFromPrpboat.pdf Uploaded by : lachica31 Description : Area Tables from the Proboat article You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/KeelCoolingExtractFromPrpboat.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, lachica31 | 16474|16465|2008-02-09 17:36:28|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Calculating water volume for closed cooling system|Interesting Proboat article on this subject and dry exhausts (thanks Ric) http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/?pm=2&zin=169&u1=texterity&pg=68&z=84 and here is an extract from the article which gives the required cooling area per brake horsepower depending on material and use. It basically agrees with the Beta Marine PDF which presents the material simply and in an easily digestible form. Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor seeratlas wrote: > Anyone know of a site or reference that would give me a good starting > point in guesstimating how much coolant/steel surface area I would > need to do my skeg cooling system? I realize that I have to have the > size/hp of motor, guesstimate on water temp etc. but am looking for a > site or reference giving some guidelines based on actual experience as > opposed to theory. There seems to be some debate here in the yard > (surprise surprise hehehe) over how much is required. | 16476|13660|2008-02-10 16:25:45|sv_roan1|Re: Hey Billy|Hello Christophe: Yes I sold Roan I to Manny back in 2006. He made some interior changes and sold it to a fellow in Victoria. I am not sure where she is now. Billy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, slade green wrote: > > Hey Billy it's Christophe of Slade Green. Yellow and Green steel boat. we met in Santa Maria. This craig list isn't for Roan 1 is it. > > sv_roan1 wrote: Built in 1998 in my yard in comox and then on Minto Road for sand > blasting and painting. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? > Link > > shows no details. > > > > Thanks... > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > > wrote: > > > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Alex Christie > > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single-keel > Swain > > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > > > SV Mandolina: http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16477|16477|2008-02-11 03:59:50|shaneduncan206|bulwark pipe Dia.|I wonder if anyone can help me I'm building a BS 31 in Perth Australia and I've just joined this group. What diameter pipe do you use for the bulwark pipe? And what wall thickness? Assuming I'm using stainless pipe. Cheers Shane| 16478|16477|2008-02-11 14:08:00|brentswain38|Re: bulwark pipe Dia.|For the 31 I use 1 inch sch 40 pipe, which is roughly 1 1/4 inch OD. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206" wrote: > > I wonder if anyone can help me > I'm building a BS 31 in Perth Australia and I've just joined this group. > What diameter pipe do you use for the bulwark pipe? > And what wall thickness? > Assuming I'm using stainless pipe. > > Cheers > Shane > | 16479|13660|2008-02-11 14:10:04|brentswain38|Re: Hey Billy|Last I heard she was in Cadborough Bay, near Victoria.The new owner has a business in solar energy ,which he hopes to apply to the boat. It should be interesting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > Hello Christophe: > > Yes I sold Roan I to Manny back in 2006. He made some interior > changes and sold it to a fellow in Victoria. I am not sure where she > is now. > > Billy > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, slade green > wrote: > > > > Hey Billy it's Christophe of Slade Green. Yellow and Green steel > boat. we met in Santa Maria. This craig list isn't for Roan 1 is it. > > > > sv_roan1 wrote: Built in 1998 in my yard in > comox and then on Minto Road for sand > > blasting and painting. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone know? > > Link > > > shows no details. > > > > > > Thanks... > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Alex Christie > > > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single- keel > > Swain > > > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > > > > > SV Mandolina: > http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16480|16421|2008-02-11 14:13:41|brentswain38|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|Selling to the public for $2 per pound is a lot more lucrative than selling to the Chinese for pennies a pound, or less.Maybe the Chinese insist on them signing exclusive contracts , which I'm sure they could negotiate, given the huge demand. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel rigging..... > > Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. > > I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging are far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in stainless steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or fatigue in the wire. If stainless wire was as bad as many people let on, masts would be falling down all the time. There are many under-rigged boats and poorly rigged boats but the fact is that the masts seems to stay up somehow. With proper design (safety margins) used on a proper cruising boat I don't see stainless steel being any problem at all. > > It's shameful what many rigging shops call a good swage. A swage shaped like a banana seems to be the norm on a lot of cruising boats. I blame poor design, poor workmanship, poor tooling, and lack of maintenance for most of the failures. All of these things are preventable. Has anyone ever seen the wire break in the middle? It is always at a fitting or under the roller furling where the rigging gets ignored. Galvanized rigging will let you know when it is bad (rust) but so will stainless if you take a bother to look at it. Nothing on a boat is fit and forget. Rigging shops who say to replace everything SS every 10 years are just looking for money and covering their asses. If they did it right in the first place it would be fine. I rigged my boat in 1992 and have spent a large part of my time in the tropics. I see no reason to replace it and would sail it anywhere. By the way, all my rigging is 5/16 inch on my 36 and the fittings are > Castlok. All of it was obtained as parts from another boat and cost $3000 including mast and boom. You can get lucky :). > > I like galvanized rigging, but I think properly done, there is nothing wrong with stainless rigging except the cost. If I was to rig again, I would seriously look at the plastic coated wire made by Brunton Shaw. http://www.brunton-shaw.co.uk/composite.html I have seen a few boats with it now and the owners were very happy with it. I am not sure what it costs but they said it was much cheaper than stainless. > > On another note, in NZ where I am right now, the scrap yards are very reluctant to sell to the public. Everything is going to China. I have never seen any galvanized wire of any quality for sale in any scrap yard in the south pacific and the galvanized wire for sale in the smaller sizes generally has very poor galvanizing on it. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16481|16421|2008-02-11 16:22:09|peter_d_wiley|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Selling to the public for $2 per pound is a lot more lucrative than > selling to the Chinese for pennies a pound, or less. Not when you risk getting your arse sued off for selling stuff that's defective. I know that if you're buying at scrap prices, you're assuming the risk of assessing if it's suitable, but the courts don't necessarily see it that way. I tried to buy a length of U-beam from a big local scrap merchant. That's what they told me as the reason for not selling it to me. Liability society - pah. PDW| 16482|16421|2008-02-11 16:27:54|peter_d_wiley|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel rigging..... > > Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. > > I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging are far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in stainless steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or fatigue in the wire. I don't disagree with what you say, but the fact remains - s/steel is inferior mechanically and much more costly than galv, as well as more fussy about its terminations, so what actually does it have going for it? Slightly stiffer for a given diameter? Only matters to racers and if you're going down that road, you should be using 1x1 wire ie rod rigging. Lotsa luck finding replacements for that in some small place somewhere... I know you haven't said this, but I've seen it argued that the smaller diameter was important as it minimised windage. The person arguing this had a roller furler on his forestay. PDW| 16483|16421|2008-02-11 19:47:24|brentswain38|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|You'd get far more windage from leaving a case of beer on deck or a fat crewmember puting off taking a shit, than you get from one sized bigger wire. These bullshit arguements come from cheapskate production boatbuilders trying deperately to find excuses for cutting corners ,at the expense of safety at sea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel rigging..... > > > > Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. > > > > I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging are > far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in stainless > steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or fatigue > in the wire. > > I don't disagree with what you say, but the fact remains - s/steel is > inferior mechanically and much more costly than galv, as well as more > fussy about its terminations, so what actually does it have going for > it? Slightly stiffer for a given diameter? Only matters to racers and > if you're going down that road, you should be using 1x1 wire ie rod > rigging. Lotsa luck finding replacements for that in some small place > somewhere... > > I know you haven't said this, but I've seen it argued that the smaller > diameter was important as it minimised windage. The person arguing > this had a roller furler on his forestay. > > PDW > | 16484|16484|2008-02-12 17:23:42|inter4905|flush deck on a Swain|Hi everybody, I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of making a boat. Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, learning the different models and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for sea travelling, on a boat of around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method of building impressed me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of the boat to have a flush deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering the balance off the boat? Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in Montreal! Thanks, Martin| 16485|16484|2008-02-12 20:37:04|kingsknight4life|Re: flush deck on a Swain|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi everybody, > > > I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of making a boat. ...> > a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of the boat to have a flush > deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering the balance off the boat? > > Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in Montreal! > > Thanks, Martin > Welcome aboard Martin There are pics of a flush deck boat, "My Island" in the pictures section, so it definitely can be done. I know Brent isn't a big fan of them, though. Not sure if there are any being built out East but Brent would probably know. Cheers Rowland| 16486|16421|2008-02-13 08:14:33|Steve Williams|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|Don't hold back Brent. Tell us what you really think!!! -Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You'd get far more windage from leaving a case of beer on deck or a > fat crewmember puting off taking a shit, than you get from one sized > bigger wire. > These bullshit arguements come from cheapskate production > boatbuilders trying deperately to find excuses for cutting > corners ,at the expense of safety at sea. > Brent > > | 16487|16487|2008-02-13 08:31:10|inter4905|foaming the hull|Hi, I want to know why you foam the hull of your origami boats. Beside the insulation is there any other reasons like maybe adding strenght to the boat or help the boat floathing Thanks, Martin| 16488|16484|2008-02-13 10:36:18|James Pronk|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Hello Martin I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a Brent Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and stainless steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking about building a boat. Good luck, James. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi everybody, > > > I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of making a boat. > Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, learning the different models > and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for sea travelling, on a boat of > around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method of building impressed > me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > > > a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of the boat to have a flush > deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering the balance off the boat? > > Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in Montreal! > > Thanks, Martin > | 16489|16484|2008-02-13 11:52:44|martin demers|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Hi James, I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any distributors on your side? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: jpronk1@... > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > Hello Martin > I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a Brent > Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and stainless > steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it to > anyone thinking about building a boat. > Good luck, James. > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi everybody, >> >> >> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > making a boat. >> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > learning the different models >> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > sea travelling, on a boat of >> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > of building impressed >> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. >> >> >> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > the boat to have a flush >> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > the balance off the boat? >> >> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in > Montreal! >> >> Thanks, Martin >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16490|16484|2008-02-13 12:56:56|James Pronk|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Hi Martin I am having the same problem but I think I will be able to come up with it. I will keep you posted, James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Hi James, > > I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any distributors on your side? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: jpronk1@... > > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > > > > Hello Martin > > I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a Brent > > Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and stainless > > steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > > Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it to > > anyone thinking about building a boat. > > Good luck, James. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi everybody, > >> > >> > >> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > > making a boat. > >> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > > learning the different models > >> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > > sea travelling, on a boat of > >> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > > of building impressed > >> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > >> > >> > >> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > > the boat to have a flush > >> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > > the balance off the boat? > >> > >> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in > > Montreal! > >> > >> Thanks, Martin > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16491|16487|2008-02-13 15:46:03|brentswain38|Re: foaming the hull|Foaming drastically reduces the noise level and condensation, especially in lockers . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I want to know why you foam the hull of your origami boats. > Beside the insulation is there any other reasons like maybe adding strenght to the boat or > help the boat floathing > > Thanks, Martin > | 16492|16484|2008-02-13 15:50:55|brentswain38|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Raising the sides would be a big mistake.It would raise the centre of gravity, and drastically reduce stability. Flush deckers tend to be dark and cave like inside, and straddling the flush deck in rough weather is like trying to straddle a whale , with no cabin to get your feet against. Keeping a flush deck fair, with such huge expoanses of relatively flat surface, is difficult , and it's much harder to keep the oilcanning out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Martin > I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a Brent > Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and stainless > steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it to > anyone thinking about building a boat. > Good luck, James. > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everybody, > > > > > > I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > making a boat. > > Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > learning the different models > > and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > sea travelling, on a boat of > > around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > of building impressed > > me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > > > > > > a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > the boat to have a flush > > deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > the balance off the boat? > > > > Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in > Montreal! > > > > Thanks, Martin > > > | 16493|16484|2008-02-13 15:54:56|brentswain38|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Martin Are you any relation to Marcel Demers, who just finished a 36 in Montreal and is now cruising the Bahamas? We really had to bug a lot of steel suppliers on the west coast to get 36 foot plates. The steel comes in huge rolls ,and they simply flatten it and cut it wherever they want to. They are just to lazy to deal with it at 36 feet. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Hi James, > > I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any distributors on your side? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: jpronk1@... > > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > > > > Hello Martin > > I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a Brent > > Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and stainless > > steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > > Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it to > > anyone thinking about building a boat. > > Good luck, James. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi everybody, > >> > >> > >> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > > making a boat. > >> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > > learning the different models > >> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > > sea travelling, on a boat of > >> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > > of building impressed > >> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > >> > >> > >> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > > the boat to have a flush > >> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > > the balance off the boat? > >> > >> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located in > > Montreal! > >> > >> Thanks, Martin > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16494|16494|2008-02-13 15:56:29|brentswain38|Diesel smell|I just read in Sail magazine that the fabric softener Calgon eliminates diesel smell. Haven't tried it yet , but plan to keep a bottle of it aboard when I find it. Brent| 16495|16494|2008-02-13 16:06:28|polaris041|Re: Diesel smell|Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I just read in Sail magazine that the fabric softener Calgon > eliminates diesel smell. Haven't tried it yet , but plan to keep a > bottle of it aboard when I find it. > Brent > | 16496|16421|2008-02-13 16:24:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: What do you use for standing rigging?|Quite agree. I thought it really funny to hear someone trying to tell me that the windage of the wire was so important that they had to use s/steel, while having a furler on their forestay. If they were really serious, they'd have had a hank-on jib. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You'd get far more windage from leaving a case of beer on deck or a > fat crewmember puting off taking a shit, than you get from one sized > bigger wire. > These bullshit arguements come from cheapskate production > boatbuilders trying deperately to find excuses for cutting > corners ,at the expense of safety at sea. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I just have to make this comment regarding stainless steel > rigging..... > > > > > > Sorry if I sound cranky, I had a long day. > > > > > > I think the problems people write about stainless steel rigging > are > > far overstated. I think just about all rigging failures in > stainless > > steel are due to improperly done fittings causing corrosion or > fatigue > > in the wire. > > > > I don't disagree with what you say, but the fact remains - s/steel > is > > inferior mechanically and much more costly than galv, as well as > more > > fussy about its terminations, so what actually does it have going > for > > it? Slightly stiffer for a given diameter? Only matters to racers > and > > if you're going down that road, you should be using 1x1 wire ie rod > > rigging. Lotsa luck finding replacements for that in some small > place > > somewhere... > > > > I know you haven't said this, but I've seen it argued that the > smaller > > diameter was important as it minimised windage. The person arguing > > this had a roller furler on his forestay. > > > > PDW > > > | 16497|16494|2008-02-13 17:04:26|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell|Brent, how was it supposed to be used? Like an additive to the diesel and if so, what dosage? Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell I just read in Sail magazine that the fabric softener Calgon eliminates diesel smell. Haven't tried it yet , but plan to keep a bottle of it aboard when I find it. Brent No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16498|16494|2008-02-13 18:04:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell|On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 04:54:58PM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > Brent, > > how was it supposed to be used? Like an additive to the diesel and if so, > what dosage? That would be a REALLY bad idea, Knut. Probably wreck your engine. Calgon, as I understand it, would get rid of the diesel smell in your bilge, etc. if you pour a bit in there. It's kinda like a soap; dish soap work OK for the same purpose. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16499|16494|2008-02-13 18:07:37|J Fisher|Re: Diesel smell|Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro diesel, another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably not concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an issue. Up side can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to have better lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse milage. I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a boat might I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. John -------Original Message------- From: polaris041 Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. later pol . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16500|16494|2008-02-13 19:36:56|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10%humidity and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It also disolves fibreglass tanks. It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro diesel, > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably not > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an issue. Up side > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to have better > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse milage. > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a boat might > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: polaris041 > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > later pol > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16501|16494|2008-02-13 19:46:27|brentswain38|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell|I found some Calgonwater softener. It is in powder form. I'd put lots in some water until it mostly disolved and any undisolved settled in the bottom of the container. Then I'd decant the liquid off the top and put the rest in a spray bottle and spray it on any spilled diesel I found the diesel deoderant in a pile of five gallon pails behind the gass dock in Auckland , so it was obviously a fuel addative . I had a leak when I left NZ, but here was no smell. In New Caledonia I topped up with some non deoderized diesel. Boy, did it ever smell then > Brent, > > > > how was it supposed to be used? Like an additive to the diesel and if so, > what dosage? > > > > Knut > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:56 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell > > > > I just read in Sail magazine that the fabric softener Calgon > eliminates diesel smell. Haven't tried it yet , but plan to keep a > bottle of it aboard when I find it. > Brent > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 > 9:41 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 > 9:41 AM > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16502|16494|2008-02-13 20:19:52|James Pronk|Re: Diesel smell|Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does it take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to produce the crops? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10%humidity > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > Brent > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: polaris041 > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > later pol > > . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16503|16484|2008-02-13 20:39:18|martin demers|Re: flush deck on a Swain|Hi Brent No, Marcel Demers is not a relative of mine. When I said raise the sides of the boat I meant incline a piece of steel toward the center only for the section with the windows. what about the big white junk rig in the photo album, Shaler I think is the name, both ends are very high and it has a kind of ramp all around the boat, does that rise the center of gravity? what is the seaworthiness of such a boat? I like the space on the deck! Is there less space inside? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:54:54 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > Martin > Are you any relation to Marcel Demers, who just finished a 36 in > Montreal and is now cruising the Bahamas? > We really had to bug a lot of steel suppliers on the west coast to > get 36 foot plates. The steel comes in huge rolls ,and they simply > flatten it and cut it wherever they want to. They are just to lazy to > deal with it at 36 feet. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hi James, >> >> I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft > x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So > I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any > distributors on your side? >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: jpronk1@... >>> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain >>> >>> >>> Hello Martin >>> I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a > Brent >>> Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and > stainless >>> steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. >>> Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it > to >>> anyone thinking about building a boat. >>> Good luck, James. >>> -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi everybody, >>>> >>>> >>>> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of >>> making a boat. >>>> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, >>> learning the different models >>>> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for >>> sea travelling, on a boat of >>>> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method >>> of building impressed >>>> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. >>>> >>>> >>>> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of >>> the boat to have a flush >>>> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering >>> the balance off the boat? >>>> >>>> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located > in >>> Montreal! >>>> >>>> Thanks, Martin >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16504|13660|2008-02-14 00:46:25|sv_roan1|Re: Hey Billy|Thanks for the update Brent. I think I will look her up when I am down next week from the Cariboo. Billy -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Last I heard she was in Cadborough Bay, near Victoria.The new owner > has a business in solar energy ,which he hopes to apply to the boat. > It should be interesting. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > > > Hello Christophe: > > > > Yes I sold Roan I to Manny back in 2006. He made some interior > > changes and sold it to a fellow in Victoria. I am not sure where > she > > is now. > > > > Billy > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, slade green > > wrote: > > > > > > Hey Billy it's Christophe of Slade Green. Yellow and Green > steel > > boat. we met in Santa Maria. This craig list isn't for Roan 1 is > it. > > > > > > sv_roan1 wrote: Built in 1998 in my yard in > > comox and then on Minto Road for sand > > > blasting and painting. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > > > > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone > know? > > > Link > > > > shows no details. > > > > > > > > Thanks... > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Alex Christie > > > > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > > > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single- > keel > > > Swain > > > > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > > > > > > > SV Mandolina: > > http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > Mobile. > > Try it now. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16505|16494|2008-02-14 01:56:29|polaris041|Re: Diesel smell|Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from the local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd world country? Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes from 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. But the corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the dollars. If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of our gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were evicted from their food producing land so a foreign multinational could extract the chromium? So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as light a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket statements, although well meant, not very informative. Much later, pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10%humidity > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro > diesel, > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably not > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > issue. Up side > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to > have better > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse > milage. > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a > boat might > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: polaris041 > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > later pol > > . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16506|16494|2008-02-14 02:13:43|shaneduncan206|Re: Diesel smell|I would dismiss bio fuels so quickly I have a friend, a marine biologist in NZ who is looking into fertilising oceans with iron filings to seed algae blooms. Some spices of phytoplankton contain up to 65% pure lipids (oil) Recent rescue carried out by NIWA (New Zealand national institute of water and atmospheric research) have shown that just 1000kg's of low grade iron filing can generate an equivalent bio mass of one hundred fully grown redwood trees In just two weeks. He is getting some interest from virgin blue and Air New Zealand He tells me they are taking Peak oil quite seriously. Cheers Shane --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. > > In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from the > local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. > So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd > world country? > > Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes from > 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. But the > corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the > dollars. > > If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of our > gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use > stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were > evicted from their food producing land so a foreign multinational > could extract the chromium? > > So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as light > a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket > statements, although well meant, not very informative. > > Much later, pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% humidity > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro > > diesel, > > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably > not > > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > > issue. Up side > > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to > > have better > > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse > > milage. > > > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a > > boat might > > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > > > > > John > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > some > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > later pol > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16507|16494|2008-02-14 04:15:21|shaneduncan206|Re: Diesel smell|Sorry I meant "I would not dismiss bio fuels so quickly" Anyway I won't go on and on. But there is also a lot of work going on with algae using bio reactors next to coal fired electric power stations Using the co2 in the flue gas to feed the algae to produce biodiesel. With respect to land use, 15000 gallons of biodiesel can produced in one acre Using lipid rich algae, Compared to just 60 gallon using say corn, Just 15,000 square miles of desert (the Sonoran desert in California and Arizona is more than eight times that size) could grow enough algae to replace nearly all of the USA current diesel requirements Not much food is grown in the desert. Then of course there is the ocean, 70% of the earth surface area. This problem is not going to go away. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206" wrote: > > > I would dismiss bio fuels so quickly > I have a friend, a marine biologist in NZ who is looking into > fertilising oceans with iron filings to seed algae blooms. > Some spices of phytoplankton contain up to 65% pure lipids (oil) > > Recent rescue carried out by NIWA (New Zealand national institute of > water > and atmospheric research) have shown that just 1000kg's of low grade > iron filing can > generate an equivalent bio mass of one hundred fully grown redwood > trees > In just two weeks. > He is getting some interest from virgin blue and Air New Zealand > He tells me they are taking Peak oil quite seriously. > > Cheers > Shane > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. > > > > In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from the > > local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. > > So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd > > world country? > > > > Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes > from > > 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. But > the > > corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the > > dollars. > > > > If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of our > > gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use > > stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were > > evicted from their food producing land so a foreign multinational > > could extract the chromium? > > > > So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as > light > > a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket > > statements, although well meant, not very informative. > > > > Much later, pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > humidity > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > of > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > injectors .It > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > price > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro > > > diesel, > > > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably > > not > > > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > > > issue. Up side > > > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to > > > have better > > > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse > > > milage. > > > > > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like > a > > > boat might > > > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent > gel. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > some > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 16508|16494|2008-02-14 06:53:26|David A. Frantz|Re: Diesel smell|John ; I'm new to biodiesel so I'm wondering if you can expand on this " I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel". Like in what exactly do you mean. I'm apparently missing completely what is meant by "gel point". To me the is the low temperature point at which the fuel begins to gel, but you are associating it with high temperature. I'm confused. In any event I would think you are right about temperature in a boat. Should be very stable considering where most fuels storage tanks are located. Dave J Fisher wrote: > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro diesel, > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably not > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an issue. Up side > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to have > better > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse milage. > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a boat > might > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: polaris041 > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > later pol > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16509|16494|2008-02-14 09:24:02|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel smell|Biodiesel: From my personal experience, using it in a diesel powered auto, I would not use it in my boat UNLESS you were going to burn it ALL in a relatively short period of time (days perhaps a week or two). I have found it to go bad (decompose into who knows what) in as little as 2 months time. This was in a 20% mix of bio/petrol. I would think that 100% bio would go bad even faster. Seems that in places that I have found it for sale it goes for a premium price (because its considered to be a GREEN fuel; ie environmentally friendly) over the petrol. Your mileage may vary, Carl| 16510|16494|2008-02-14 09:31:28|J Fisher|Re: Diesel smell|Bio from waste oil tends to gel at about 32 deg or so. Petro diesel gels -25 or so with a good aditive. So if you blend say 5 or 10% bio your gel point is still a pretty good, say -10. In the summer I can run B100 or 100% bio, but in the winter I try to use B20 or less. They guy I was getting my B100 from did a bunch of test samples with different mixes, then froze them to see at what temp they would gel. Turned out that you need a pretty good portion of the mix to be petro in the winter. The coldest I have been able to start was -9. I had one day at -12 and it wouldn't keep running. Don't think it gelled, but not going to take any chances either. John -------Original Message------- From: David A. Frantz Date: 2/14/2008 4:53:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell John ; I'm new to biodiesel so I'm wondering if you can expand on this " I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel". Like in what exactly do you mean. I'm apparently missing completely what is meant by "gel point". To me the is the low temperature point at which the fuel begins to gel, but you are associating it with high temperature. I'm confused. In any event I would think you are right about temperature in a boat. Should be very stable considering where most fuels storage tanks are located. Dave J Fisher wrote: > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro diesel, > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably not > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an issue. Up side > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to have > better > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse milage. > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a boat > might > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: polaris041 > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at some > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > later pol > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16511|16511|2008-02-14 13:41:43|theboilerflue|diesel smell|I came up once from mexico in a diesel trunk with some friends we had been running on diesel in mexico and picked up a barrel of bio-diesel that they had made and had left for their return in austin TX. By the time we had made it out of Oklahoma we had gone through two fuel filters, just right cloged up. My understanding is that the bio-diesel just scourers out your fuel system, as clean as a whistle. Aparently bio-diesel is very similar chemicaly to the fancy expersive fuel additives one can buy to mix with your diesel, mostly they're just high methanol fuels. Although unless one is making there own bio-diesel i don't see the point in using the stuff cause it's not much cheaper (last time i was down in the states it was more expensive than regular old diesel) plus buying it your still paying all that goddam tax to the goverment and money to large corporations.| 16512|16494|2008-02-14 14:18:44|brentswain38|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell|I don't know what the addative they use in New Zealand was. All I saw was a pile of 5 gallon pails with the words "Shell Diesel Deoderant" written on the side.I asked Shell here and htey said there are all kinds of Shell products sold in some parts of the world but not others.He had no idea where to find the stuff. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I found some Calgonwater softener. It is in powder form. I'd put > lots in some water until it mostly disolved and any undisolved > settled in the bottom of the container. Then I'd decant the liquid > off the top and put the rest in a spray bottle and spray it on any > spilled diesel > I found the diesel deoderant in a pile of five gallon pails behind > the gass dock in Auckland , so it was obviously a fuel addative . > I had a leak when I left NZ, but here was no smell. In New > Caledonia I topped up with some non deoderized diesel. Boy, did it > ever smell then > > Brent, > > > > > > > > how was it supposed to be used? Like an additive to the diesel and > if so, > > what dosage? > > > > > > > > Knut > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:56 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Diesel smell > > > > > > > > I just read in Sail magazine that the fabric softener Calgon > > eliminates diesel smell. Haven't tried it yet , but plan to keep a > > bottle of it aboard when I find it. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: > 2/13/2008 > > 9:41 AM > > > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: > 2/13/2008 > > 9:41 AM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16513|16484|2008-02-14 14:20:52|brentswain38|Re: flush deck on a Swain|You'll have to talk to Evan Shaler about the junk. He built and dsigned it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Hi Brent > No, Marcel Demers is not a relative of mine. > > When I said raise the sides of the boat I meant incline a piece of steel toward the center only for the section with the windows. > > what about the big white junk rig in the photo album, Shaler I think is the name, both ends are very high and it has a kind of ramp all around the boat, does that rise the center of gravity? what is the seaworthiness of such a boat? I like the space on the deck! Is there less space inside? > > > Martin > > > > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:54:54 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > > > > Martin > > Are you any relation to Marcel Demers, who just finished a 36 in > > Montreal and is now cruising the Bahamas? > > We really had to bug a lot of steel suppliers on the west coast to > > get 36 foot plates. The steel comes in huge rolls ,and they simply > > flatten it and cut it wherever they want to. They are just to lazy to > > deal with it at 36 feet. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi James, > >> > >> I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft > > x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So > > I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any > > distributors on your side? > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: jpronk1@ > >>> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > >>> > >>> > >>> Hello Martin > >>> I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a > > Brent > >>> Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and > > stainless > >>> steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > >>> Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it > > to > >>> anyone thinking about building a boat. > >>> Good luck, James. > >>> -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi everybody, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > >>> making a boat. > >>>> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > >>> learning the different models > >>>> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > >>> sea travelling, on a boat of > >>>> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > >>> of building impressed > >>>> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > >>> the boat to have a flush > >>>> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > >>> the balance off the boat? > >>>> > >>>> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located > > in > >>> Montreal! > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, Martin > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16514|16484|2008-02-14 14:22:25|brentswain38|Re: flush deck on a Swain|You'd still be raising the centre of gravity of the side decks if you did that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Hi Brent > No, Marcel Demers is not a relative of mine. > > When I said raise the sides of the boat I meant incline a piece of steel toward the center only for the section with the windows. > > what about the big white junk rig in the photo album, Shaler I think is the name, both ends are very high and it has a kind of ramp all around the boat, does that rise the center of gravity? what is the seaworthiness of such a boat? I like the space on the deck! Is there less space inside? > > > Martin > > > > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:54:54 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > > > > > > Martin > > Are you any relation to Marcel Demers, who just finished a 36 in > > Montreal and is now cruising the Bahamas? > > We really had to bug a lot of steel suppliers on the west coast to > > get 36 foot plates. The steel comes in huge rolls ,and they simply > > flatten it and cut it wherever they want to. They are just to lazy to > > deal with it at 36 feet. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi James, > >> > >> I called the steel distributors this morning to find 3/16 thick 8ft > > x 36ft plates to be told that it is not available at that lenght. So > > I want to know where to get the plates. Did you found any > > distributors on your side? > >> > >> Martin > >> ________________________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: jpronk1@ > >>> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:36:15 +0000 > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: flush deck on a Swain > >>> > >>> > >>> Hello Martin > >>> I am in Peterborough Ontario and I have been planing to build a > > Brent > >>> Swain 36. I have been collecting materials such as lead and > > stainless > >>> steel and I am hoping to be able to start on on in the next year. > >>> Brent's book is a very good read and I would highly recommend it > > to > >>> anyone thinking about building a boat. > >>> Good luck, James. > >>> -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905"> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi everybody, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I am new to the group and already enthousiast about this way of > >>> making a boat. > >>>> Since a few months I am looking at used sailboats and plans, > >>> learning the different models > >>>> and materials. I decided to go for steel for solidity reasons for > >>> sea travelling, on a boat of > >>>> around 36ft. I was interested in Badger and Wylo, but your method > >>> of building impressed > >>>> me with it's simplicity that I have to consider a Swain now. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> a question came to my mind; is it possible to raise the sides of > >>> the boat to have a flush > >>>> deck for more haed space ( maybe like on Wylo) without altering > >>> the balance off the boat? > >>>> > >>>> Is there anyone building a Swain in eastern Canada, I am located > > in > >>> Montreal! > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, Martin > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16515|13660|2008-02-14 14:24:57|brentswain38|Re: Hey Billy|Did you get any moose up there this year? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > Thanks for the update Brent. I think I will look her up when I am > down next week from the Cariboo. > > Billy > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Last I heard she was in Cadborough Bay, near Victoria.The new owner > > has a business in solar energy ,which he hopes to apply to the > boat. > > It should be interesting. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sv_roan1" wrote: > > > > > > Hello Christophe: > > > > > > Yes I sold Roan I to Manny back in 2006. He made some interior > > > changes and sold it to a fellow in Victoria. I am not sure where > > she > > > is now. > > > > > > Billy > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, slade green > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey Billy it's Christophe of Slade Green. Yellow and Green > > steel > > > boat. we met in Santa Maria. This craig list isn't for Roan 1 is > > it. > > > > > > > > sv_roan1 wrote: Built in 1998 in my yard > in > > > comox and then on Minto Road for sand > > > > blasting and painting. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Curious about year built, degree built and price...anyone > > know? > > > > Link > > > > > shows no details. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex, This is Manny's boat - has been sold. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Alex Christie > > > > > > Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 4:20 pm > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Swain Sailboat > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a listing on Victoria Craigslist for a single- > > keel > > > > Swain > > > > > > > sailboat for sale, for those interested: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SV Mandolina: > > > http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/322940466.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > > Mobile. > > > Try it now. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 16516|16494|2008-02-14 14:28:24|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does it > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to produce > the crops? James. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% humidity > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > Brent > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > some > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > later pol > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16517|16494|2008-02-14 14:32:28|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Ex cooking oil is an excellent source. A kid on Lasquetti converted his car to cooking oil and drove to California and back for free. He was given all the grease he needed. The only problem was, whenever he stopped at a red light, the hippies would smell his exhuast and start circling like vultures. Martin who runs the Titas Restaurant in Courtenaty runs all his vehicles on used cooking oil. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. > > In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from the > local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. > So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd > world country? > > Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes from > 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. But the > corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the > dollars. > > If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of our > gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use > stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were > evicted from their food producing land so a foreign multinational > could extract the chromium? > > So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as light > a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket > statements, although well meant, not very informative. > > Much later, pol > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% humidity > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom of > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your injectors .It > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the price > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro > > diesel, > > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably > not > > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > > issue. Up side > > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to > > have better > > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse > > milage. > > > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like a > > boat might > > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent gel. > > > > > > John > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > some > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > later pol > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16518|16494|2008-02-14 14:34:08|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Algae blooms kill just about everything else in the ocean. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206" wrote: > > > I would dismiss bio fuels so quickly > I have a friend, a marine biologist in NZ who is looking into > fertilising oceans with iron filings to seed algae blooms. > Some spices of phytoplankton contain up to 65% pure lipids (oil) > > Recent rescue carried out by NIWA (New Zealand national institute of > water > and atmospheric research) have shown that just 1000kg's of low grade > iron filing can > generate an equivalent bio mass of one hundred fully grown redwood > trees > In just two weeks. > He is getting some interest from virgin blue and Air New Zealand > He tells me they are taking Peak oil quite seriously. > > Cheers > Shane > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. > > > > In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from the > > local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. > > So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd > > world country? > > > > Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes > from > > 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. But > the > > corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the > > dollars. > > > > If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of our > > gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use > > stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were > > evicted from their food producing land so a foreign multinational > > could extract the chromium? > > > > So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as > light > > a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket > > statements, although well meant, not very informative. > > > > Much later, pol > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > humidity > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > of > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > injectors .It > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > price > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than petro > > > diesel, > > > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. Probably > > not > > > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > > > issue. Up side > > > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends to > > > have better > > > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly worse > > > milage. > > > > > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit like > a > > > boat might > > > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to prevent > gel. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > some > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 16519|16484|2008-02-14 14:41:56|ANDREW AIREY|Re: flush deck on a Swain|This came up a few weeks ago.You want a steel stockholder who does decoiling cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16520|16484|2008-02-14 14:46:12|ANDREW AIREY|Re: flush deck on a Swain|As a personal enquiry - nothing to do with boatbuilding - do we have any members living around Winnepeg cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16521|16521|2008-02-14 17:20:46|inter4905|brent 36 beam?|I tried to find the beam of a Brent36 everywhere in the files, the links,photos.. Can someone tell me? Martin| 16522|16494|2008-02-14 17:34:02|redwingster|Algae Blooms|The idea of the "iron seeding" to cause algae blooms was to do it out in deep oceans, in areas where other sea life, including plankton, is relatively minimal. The idea was cited as a way to pull existing CO2 out of the atmosphere and store it in the oceans, to reduce global climate change. If that algae could be harvested in an energy efficient manner to provide oil and alcohol based fules, makes the idea even more appealing. Not sure how much area of the oceans might fit this profile, and in any case, such potentially environmentally damaging experiments should be managed very, VERY carefully. Both methanol and bio diesel do cause some problems with our existing infrastructure, in storage, distribution and use in ICE's. However, there don't seem to be any unsolvable issues. Attempting to totally displace use of fossil fuels with today's versions of bio diesel and methanol would not be supportable, as the production process at the scales needed for both are far less energy efficient than current fossil fuel processes, AND would have a major impact on food supply. However... if breakthroughs continue towards energy effective production of methanol and bio diesel from agricultural waste, purpose grown algae, and other biologically derived means that do not compete with food production, that could change in a very big way. Very fair to be skeptical of today's version of both types of alternative hydrocarbon fuels, but also very smart to keep driving research in both areas. Even with great advances in battery, PV and wind power generation, electric motor, and even superconductor technology, for automobile mobility purposes, some sort of hyrdrocarbon fuel is likely to be part of the energy package for a very long time to come. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Algae blooms kill just about everything else in the ocean. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaneduncan206" > wrote: > > > > > > I would dismiss bio fuels so quickly > > I have a friend, a marine biologist in NZ who is looking into > > fertilising oceans with iron filings to seed algae blooms. > > Some spices of phytoplankton contain up to 65% pure lipids (oil) > > > > Recent rescue carried out by NIWA (New Zealand national institute > of > > water > > and atmospheric research) have shown that just 1000kg's of low > grade > > iron filing can > > generate an equivalent bio mass of one hundred fully grown redwood > > trees > > In just two weeks. > > He is getting some interest from virgin blue and Air New Zealand > > He tells me they are taking Peak oil quite seriously. > > > > Cheers > > Shane > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" wrote: > > > > > > Yes; there are some truths there; but where do you stop. > > > > > > In this case he is making it from second hand chicken fat from > the > > > local take-a-way; which used to go to land fill. > > > So do we all stop eating chicken, feed on chook food from a 3 rd > > > world country? > > > > > > Like wise, is diesel so environmentally clean? Most of it comes > > from > > > 3 rd world countries; where the inhabitants get zilch for it. > But > > the > > > corrupt regime propped up by some 1st world democracy creams the > > > dollars. > > > > > > If we adopt such restrictive behaviour we would not buy any of > our > > > gizmos or toys made in 3 rd world countries. We may not even use > > > stainless steel for who knows how many 3 rd world peasants were > > > evicted from their food producing land so a foreign > multinational > > > could extract the chromium? > > > > > > So, although I agree in principal and certainly try to leave as > > light > > > a foot print on this planet as possible, I find such blanket > > > statements, although well meant, not very informative. > > > > > > Much later, pol > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > humidity > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the > bottom > > of > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > injectors .It > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > price > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and > arrogant. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Down side of bio is that it grows stuff more easily than > petro > > > > diesel, > > > > > another down side is the gel point is usually higher. > Probably > > > not > > > > > concerned with gel on a boat, but growing stuff might be an > > > > issue. Up side > > > > > can be a lot cheaper depending on the oil source, also tends > to > > > > have better > > > > > lubricity. It also has slightly less energy, so slightly > worse > > > > milage. > > > > > > > > > > I have run it in my van with good luck, but it doesn't sit > like > > a > > > > boat might > > > > > I also don't run in at very high % in the winter to > prevent > > gel. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability > at > > > some > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 16523|16521|2008-02-14 18:57:32|Aaron Williams|Re: brent 36 beam?|10' 6" inter4905 wrote: I tried to find the beam of a Brent36 everywhere in the files, the links,photos.. Can someone tell me? Martin --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16524|16484|2008-02-14 18:59:38|dbourg2002|Re: flush deck on a Swain|I have to admit to living in Winnipeg. About as far away from ocean sailing as possible! Don --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > As a personal enquiry - nothing to do with > boatbuilding - do we have any members living around > Winnepeg > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 16525|16494|2008-02-14 20:35:12|harveyplanes|Re: Diesel smell|I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and there are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see the algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead zones the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill it, waste it, and / or change it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does > it > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to produce > > the crops? James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > humidity > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > of > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > injectors .It > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > price > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > some > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 16527|16494|2008-02-14 21:40:26|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real problem they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean cruse lines. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used coal to make all his fuels. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and there > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see the > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead zones > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill it, > waste it, and / or change it. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does > > it > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > produce > > > the crops? James. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > humidity > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > > of > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > injectors .It > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > price > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > > some > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 16528|16528|2008-02-14 22:08:59|Shane Duncan|ReRe: Diesel smell|I agree we will be using hydrocarbons for some time to come. It�s just so energy rich, one barrel is the equivalent to 2 years of one man�s hard manual labour. But making fuel out of food is dangerous. Countries have been known to go to war over fuel security. But they would certainly go to war if their population starts to starve. Algae blooms don�t stop people growing corn, as you pointed out An algae bloom can be the by-product of growing food for the masses Here in Australia we have algae blooms from the runoff of the sugar cane Fertilisers. ----- Original Message ---- From: harveyplanes To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:35:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and there are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see the algae. It's amazing there is so much of it.. The dead zone exists. It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead zones the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill it, waste it, and / or change it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > wrote: > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does > it > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to produce > > the crops? James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > humidity > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > of > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > injectors .It > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > price > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil. > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > some > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16529|16383|2008-02-14 22:35:34|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat heater|Is there a reason for making the top baffle in the wood stove a sliding baffle? Aaron brentswain38 wrote: I clean my chimney by starting a chimney fire .I doubt if it would be that simple with a converter. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > > > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. > > Brent > > A lot of the newest evironmentally friendly and super efficient wood > stoves have a catalytic converter in the flue.. it burns just about > every bit of ash and such that wasn't consumed in the first burning. > plus releases a lot more heat.. > > Probably a real good thing for a boat as it would mean you could use > less fuel.. but on the flip side it would also add expense and complexity. > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16530|16423|2008-02-14 22:51:54|renrut5|Re: Roberts Spray|Rowland: There was a Swain 36 hull and deck at the Riverside Trailer Park in Duncan. It was there for years and if its still there, the owner might consider selling. Might be worth a visit. It was built with 10 gauge and the keel wasn't attached when I last saw it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I agree with Brent! I can't understand why the Spray is so popular. I know of one that was within 100 miles of Opua, NZ until the wind went against him. Two weeks later he finally made it in. You can't make an apartment block go to windward. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2008 3:34:50 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Roberts Spray > > Roberts spray is an abortion, slower than a bureaucrat, and grossly > overweight. The many imitation wooden boat nooks and crannies make > them a mainternance headache. They make a good houseboat , but not > much else. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Page 73 of February, 2008 of 48 North. Add 2461. > > classads48@ .. > > > > As for your uncle, wait him out. Get a judgement filed against him. > He'll get money from > > somewhere someday and then u can take it. > > Last week in the Sun it was reported that a guy who won the > lottery (many millions) while > > in Jail is now being sued by his victims for crimes he committed 20 > years before. > > > > Add says"36'Bruce Roberts Spray Design, corten steel, > professionally finished, faired/ > > primed. Bright and airy main cabin w/custom windows, 7000# > ballast, 50 hp diesel, 7 > > hours run time. Approx 75% complete. Fwd and aft cabins laid out > w/buks and bulkheads. > > 12' beam and 4' draft. Located Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "mickeyolaf" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Roland, there is a 36 Roberts Spray in 48 North that has been > in > > > there for a few issues. > > > > Corten steel, faired and primed, lead is in, windows, 50 hp > diesel, > > > bulkheads, cabins laid > > > > out, approx 75% complete. It's in Bellingham. $35,000.00 obo. > U > > > never know what the > > > > owner would take for it. Interest rates and the exchange rate > have > > > never been cheaper. It's > > > > at 731-288-4864. > > > > How's it going with recovery/restitutio n re your boat? > > > > > > > Thanks Mickey > > > > > > I couldn't find the add, do you have a link? Maybe it's sold? So > far > > > there is no news on the restitution. The cops have charged Bev's > > > uncle and it looks like he is the only one getting charged. > > > Unfortunately he is also the guy with no job and no assets. :( > Right > > > now I'm still writing up my version for the cops, I guess it's > sort > > > of a victims impact stateent. Thanks again for your concern and > help. > > > The boat sems interesting. > > > Rowland > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16531|16494|2008-02-15 00:06:12|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|"'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. "History lesson WW2 Hitler used coal to make all his fuels.� So did the South Africans during apartheid due to oil trade sanctions Not great examples of humanity ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:40:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real problem they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used coal to make all his fuels. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and there > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see the > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead zones > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill it, > waste it, and / or change it.. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does > > it > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > produce > > > the crops? James. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > humidity > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > > of > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > injectors .It > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > price > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil.. > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > > some > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16532|16494|2008-02-15 00:47:05|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel smell|On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It was on Yahoo news. Aaron Shane Duncan wrote: "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. "History lesson WW2 Hitler used coal to make all his fuels.” So did the South Africans during apartheid due to oil trade sanctions Not great examples of humanity ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:40:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real problem they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used coal to make all his fuels. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and there > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see the > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead zones > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill it, > waste it, and / or change it.. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with corn > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, devoid > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land does > > it > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > produce > > > the crops? James. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > humidity > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the bottom > > of > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > injectors .It > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > price > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and arrogant. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil.. > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability at > > > some > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16533|16533|2008-02-15 01:10:51|Bill Gilroy|Lead on craigslist|NFI. Location is Issaquah,WA. http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/568517089.html Removed from a doctors x-ray room. #2 #2.5 and #4 The sheets are full of screw holes, but there is plenty of flashing here! Approx. 5 sheets at 4x6 and 2 at 4x8 Masons, roofers, x ray techs, craftsmen, reloaders.... I can scrap for $0.40 per lb and will so so by end of week. You pick up. Scott 206-261-4669 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16534|16494|2008-02-15 08:16:07|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It was on Yahoo news. > "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" > > I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships > are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from > Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. > > If CO2 where the real problem > they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean > cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on > land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental > socalists won't let us get to them. > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land > does > > > it > > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > > produce > > > > the crops? I really don't understand this pre-occupation with CO2 - seems it's becoming a new world religion. The most powerful greenhouse gas is water vapour - as anyone who has spent the night freezing under a cloudless sky in winter will testify. Having said that, there's evidence that CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere ARE rising - which is mighty strange as CO2 is a relatively heavy gas and should gradually filter down towards the ground, where it has played an essential part in the earth's bio-dynamics for millenia. So - you might be better off looking to aircraft for the underlying cause of increased CO2 emissions within the upper atmosphere. Burning-off fossil fuels is actually a way of saving the planet (sic) - although admittedly it would be better to do this over a few million years rather that in a century or two. Consider - what would happen WHEN (and not IF) the existing oil and gas fields rupture as a result of plate tectonic shifts. The result would be either persistent oil slicks the size of continents, or enough black smoke and airborne pollution to rival a nuclear winter - i.e. one dead planet. I find it rather interesting that we've been indoctrinated into viewing oil fields as precious legacies from the distant past, rather than as ticking time bombs. The Law of Conservation of Matter (remember that from schooldays ?) indicates that all the carbon to be found on the planet 'belongs' here, and is simply being shifted around and around. Storing it up in one form or another will only create yet another time bomb. Colin| 16535|16423|2008-02-15 09:50:00|mkriley48|Re: Roberts 37|has anyone here put twin keels and the outboard skeg rudder on to a roberts 37. It is foamed and finished. Is it practical? mike| 16536|16494|2008-02-15 12:40:21|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change. I've gained a tremendous amount of information from this forum and thought I could contribute something that I have some expertise in. I've spent a fair bit of time looking at climate change data and think there are few salient points regarding climate change and fossil fuel consumption. The first is that climate is unquestionably changing at an unprecedented rate and the only hypothesis that has withstood critical evaluation as an explanation is rising levels of greenhouse gas emissions. If anyone doesn't agree with this I would be happy to provide more info off-line so as to not clog this forum. The effects of climate change are often underestimated. Past warm periods have been associated with droughts in the grain producing belt of North America that make the dirty thirties look like a short vacation. Similar changes have been noted in past Monsoon cycles that could seriously impact rice production. Together these two sources represent a massive component of the worlds carbohydrate production. Long-term climate change records also show that these changes often aren't gradual, but can quickly switch from one regime to another with very little warning. So, it is fairly important we start to curtail greenhouse gas emissions (whether we have already passed the point of no return is scientifically too hard to predict in my opinion). Discussions on emissions reduction often result in finger pointing as to who should do the cutting, but the bottom line is that there is no one single massive source and the solution with have to come from smaller cuts everywhere. Sailing more, motoring below hull speed and using sources of fuel that are as close to carbon neutral as possible are all solutions we can contribute. Other, less obvious contributions are to buy locally produced food, building materials and other products rather than items shipped halfway around the word. Yes, I still buy cheap Chinese tools, but I don't commute to work in an SUV. The important bit is too look at everything you do and see if there is a way to cut back the amount of energy used. It is not easy, it will cut into time and sometimes money for other pursuits, but I'm convinced it is necessary. As a note on the origin of this thread. Please don't pump any bilge water overboard that has had detergent added to it. Adding detergent to the oil actually increases the toxicity of the bilge water when it is pumped overboard. A bilge sock to absorb the oil is a better way to go. If you're still at the building stage it might be worth considering extra and independent pans under the stuffing box and engine. The engine pan then only has oil in it and the pan for the stuffing box can have its own pump and leave your bilge dry for storing wine/beer/rum. Darren >I really don't understand this pre-occupation with CO2 - seems it's >becoming a new world religion. The most powerful greenhouse gas is >water vapour - as anyone who has spent the night freezing under a >cloudless sky in winter will testify. Having said that, there's >evidence that CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere ARE rising - which is >mighty strange as CO2 is a relatively heavy gas and should gradually >filter down towards the ground, where it has played an essential part >in the earth's bio-dynamics for millenia. So - you might be better >off looking to aircraft for the underlying cause of increased CO2 >emissions within the upper atmosphere. > >Burning-off fossil fuels is actually a way of saving the planet (sic) >- although admittedly it would be better to do this over a few million >years rather that in a century or two. > >Consider - what would happen WHEN (and not IF) the existing oil and >gas fields rupture as a result of plate tectonic shifts. The result >would be either persistent oil slicks the size of continents, or >enough black smoke and airborne pollution to rival a nuclear winter - >i.e. one dead planet. I find it rather interesting that we've been >indoctrinated into viewing oil fields as precious legacies from the >distant past, rather than as ticking time bombs. > >The Law of Conservation of Matter (remember that from schooldays ?) >indicates that all the carbon to be found on the planet 'belongs' >here, and is simply being shifted around and around. Storing it up in >one form or another will only create yet another time bomb. > >Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16537|16494|2008-02-15 13:28:59|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel smell|According to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Pastafarians, the lack of pirates are the cause of global warming..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster#Pirates_and_global_warming On a serious note, I am no fan of Biofuel having seen jungles and forests cut down and cleared by burning for palm oil in SE Asia. I would think the burning forests take-away any gain obtained from the biofuel. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 2:16:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It was on Yahoo news. > "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" > > I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships > are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from > Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. > > If CO2 where the real problem > they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean > cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on > land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental > socalists won't let us get to them. > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land > does > > > it > > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > > produce > > > > the crops? I really don't understand this pre-occupation with CO2 - seems it's becoming a new world religion. The most powerful greenhouse gas is water vapour - as anyone who has spent the night freezing under a cloudless sky in winter will testify. Having said that, there's evidence that CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere ARE rising - which is mighty strange as CO2 is a relatively heavy gas and should gradually filter down towards the ground, where it has played an essential part in the earth's bio-dynamics for millenia. So - you might be better off looking to aircraft for the underlying cause of increased CO2 emissions within the upper atmosphere. Burning-off fossil fuels is actually a way of saving the planet (sic) - although admittedly it would be better to do this over a few million years rather that in a century or two. Consider - what would happen WHEN (and not IF) the existing oil and gas fields rupture as a result of plate tectonic shifts. The result would be either persistent oil slicks the size of continents, or enough black smoke and airborne pollution to rival a nuclear winter - i.e. one dead planet. I find it rather interesting that we've been indoctrinated into viewing oil fields as precious legacies from the distant past, rather than as ticking time bombs. The Law of Conservation of Matter (remember that from schooldays ?) indicates that all the carbon to be found on the planet 'belongs' here, and is simply being shifted around and around. Storing it up in one form or another will only create yet another time bomb. Colin ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16538|16423|2008-02-15 14:41:34|brentswain38|Re: Roberts 37|It could be done, but it would involve scraping out a lot of foam and interior, doing the job, then putting it all back again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > has anyone here put twin keels and the outboard skeg rudder on to a > roberts 37. It is foamed and finished. Is it practical? > mike > | 16539|16494|2008-02-15 14:52:21|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|When the wind is too light to move your boat fast enough, but will keep the sails full, don't drop the sails. With them up it only takes a diesel barely ticking over to reach hull speed. In my last boat I only had a 4hp diesel. When the strong Sqamish blew down Howe Sound ,niether the engine alone, nor the mailsail alone would push the boat against it, but both combined gave me all the push I needed, and with just the main up, I didn't have sheets to deal with when tacking. Motorsailing drastically reduces fuel consumption. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really > slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change. > > I've gained a tremendous amount of information from this forum and > thought I could contribute something that I have some expertise > in. I've spent a fair bit of time looking at climate change data and > think there are few salient points regarding climate change and > fossil fuel consumption. The first is that climate is unquestionably > changing at an unprecedented rate and the only hypothesis that has > withstood critical evaluation as an explanation is rising levels of > greenhouse gas emissions. If anyone doesn't agree with this I would > be happy to provide more info off-line so as to not clog this > forum. The effects of climate change are often underestimated. Past > warm periods have been associated with droughts in the grain > producing belt of North America that make the dirty thirties look > like a short vacation. Similar changes have been noted in past > Monsoon cycles that could seriously impact rice production. Together > these two sources represent a massive component of the worlds > carbohydrate production. Long-term climate change records also show > that these changes often aren't gradual, but can quickly switch from > one regime to another with very little warning. So, it is fairly > important we start to curtail greenhouse gas emissions (whether we > have already passed the point of no return is scientifically too hard > to predict in my opinion). Discussions on emissions reduction often > result in finger pointing as to who should do the cutting, but the > bottom line is that there is no one single massive source and the > solution with have to come from smaller cuts everywhere. Sailing > more, motoring below hull speed and using sources of fuel that are as > close to carbon neutral as possible are all solutions we can > contribute. Other, less obvious contributions are to buy locally > produced food, building materials and other products rather than > items shipped halfway around the word. Yes, I still buy cheap > Chinese tools, but I don't commute to work in an SUV. The important > bit is too look at everything you do and see if there is a way to cut > back the amount of energy used. It is not easy, it will cut into > time and sometimes money for other pursuits, but I'm convinced it is > necessary. > > As a note on the origin of this thread. Please don't pump any bilge > water overboard that has had detergent added to it. Adding detergent > to the oil actually increases the toxicity of the bilge water when it > is pumped overboard. A bilge sock to absorb the oil is a better way > to go. If you're still at the building stage it might be worth > considering extra and independent pans under the stuffing box and > engine. The engine pan then only has oil in it and the pan for the > stuffing box can have its own pump and leave your bilge dry for > storing wine/beer/rum. > > Darren > > > > > >I really don't understand this pre-occupation with CO2 - seems it's > >becoming a new world religion. The most powerful greenhouse gas is > >water vapour - as anyone who has spent the night freezing under a > >cloudless sky in winter will testify. Having said that, there's > >evidence that CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere ARE rising - which is > >mighty strange as CO2 is a relatively heavy gas and should gradually > >filter down towards the ground, where it has played an essential part > >in the earth's bio-dynamics for millenia. So - you might be better > >off looking to aircraft for the underlying cause of increased CO2 > >emissions within the upper atmosphere. > > > >Burning-off fossil fuels is actually a way of saving the planet (sic) > >- although admittedly it would be better to do this over a few million > >years rather that in a century or two. > > > >Consider - what would happen WHEN (and not IF) the existing oil and > >gas fields rupture as a result of plate tectonic shifts. The result > >would be either persistent oil slicks the size of continents, or > >enough black smoke and airborne pollution to rival a nuclear winter - > >i.e. one dead planet. I find it rather interesting that we've been > >indoctrinated into viewing oil fields as precious legacies from the > >distant past, rather than as ticking time bombs. > > > >The Law of Conservation of Matter (remember that from schooldays ?) > >indicates that all the carbon to be found on the planet 'belongs' > >here, and is simply being shifted around and around. Storing it up in > >one form or another will only create yet another time bomb. > > > >Colin > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16540|16383|2008-02-15 15:01:00|brentswain38|Re: Boat heater|The plan was to slide it foreward to get the stove and draft going, then slide it back. I 've never done that, but to clean my chimney from the inside, I have to slide it up and foreward.If it were fixed , there would be no way to access the inside of the chimney. The last two times I sailed south I left the stove ashore, and changed the space into storage. It got quite cold comming home last time, so next time, I'll take it with me. I'll put my extra groceries in the forepeak , and when I get to warmer waters, I'll clean the stove out, push the baffle up and fill it with extra stuff, using it for storage , and the chimney for bottles of cooking oil. Comming home ,I'll put a bit of extra stuff in it, a dinghy load of firewood on deck and in the forepeak, and when it gets cold , I'll clean it out and use it for heat again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Is there a reason for making the top baffle in the wood stove a sliding baffle? > Aaron > > brentswain38 wrote: > I clean my chimney by starting a chimney fire .I doubt if it would be > that simple with a converter. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. > > > Brent > > > > A lot of the newest evironmentally friendly and super efficient wood > > stoves have a catalytic converter in the flue.. it burns just about > > every bit of ash and such that wasn't consumed in the first burning. > > plus releases a lot more heat.. > > > > Probably a real good thing for a boat as it would mean you could use > > less fuel.. but on the flip side it would also add expense and > complexity. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16541|16494|2008-02-15 15:57:58|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|Many years ago when I was an officer in HM Customs & Excise I did a stint on the road fuel testing unit.This was 3 or 4 years after they'd started putting a red dye in industrial diesel and back in the days of the old high gravity diesels which were notoriously prone to freeze in the winter.A common excuse when you found that someone had been adding paraffin to the diesel was that it was to stop the diesel freezing,although this rang a bit hollow in the case of the garage whose diesel turned out to be 95percent Aladdin pink.A lot of chemical feedstocks will burn perfectly satisfactorily in a diesel engine as well and I once spent a week dipping incoming tankers at a chemical plant with water seeking paste on the dipstick because we'd had a tip off that drivers were abstracting feedstock and replacing it with water so that the weighbridge figures came right. The water wouldn't show up later because they were discharging into water bottomed tanks. Cheers Andy Airey ps tanker drivers also had an alternative use for condoms Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16542|16383|2008-02-15 16:20:29|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Boat heater|I put notches on each of the side runners that the baffle slides on. The baffle has short pieces of angle welded to its underside that fit in the notches. This way, the baffle will stay where you want it no matter what the boat is doing (unless its upside down) > Is there a reason for making the top baffle in the wood stove a sliding baffle? > Aaron > > brentswain38 wrote: > I clean my chimney by starting a chimney fire .I doubt if it would be > that simple with a converter. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: >> >> >> > >> > In BC, burning wood is far more environmentally friendly. >> > Brent >> >> A lot of the newest evironmentally friendly and super efficient wood >> stoves have a catalytic converter in the flue.. it burns just about >> every bit of ash and such that wasn't consumed in the first burning. >> plus releases a lot more heat.. >> >> Probably a real good thing for a boat as it would mean you could use >> less fuel.. but on the flip side it would also add expense and > complexity. >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16543|16494|2008-02-15 20:56:02|Gary Prebble|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really > slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change. The "time bomb" I worry about is billions of new consumers expected within the next few decades on a planet which many feel has already surpassed it's capacity to sustain the present ridership. I am angstly of similar mind as I see ample evidence for this view. As one familiar example, in my sailing turf of British Columbia once wilderness forests have already been massively whacked...most in-land just far enough to be out of sight of tourists. So, before things get really weird (as if rapidly melting glaciers on this coast aren't) what do you think we have...a decade maybe? Kinda makes all attempts at mitigation essential but perhaps not bio diesel. Gary| 16544|16423|2008-02-15 21:34:49|kingsknight4life|Re: Roberts 37|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > has anyone here put twin keels and the outboard skeg rudder on to a > roberts 37. It is foamed and finished. Is it practical? > mike > Mike, Are you thinking about buying the boat on ebay, right now? Rowland| 16545|16494|2008-02-15 21:56:24|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|"'Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change.'' The probability is 100% re the oilfields being a time bomb It�s just the probability of when that uncertain. I�ve spent the last 7 years as a research analyst for a large insurance company Trust me they are taking it very seriously. That�s why I�m taking 6months off work to build my Brent 31 Just in case, it�s my plan B I�m no conspiracy theorist, just a boring 38 year old back office analyst. But I did spend the last 6 months researching peak oil and how it would affect future profitability for the company. The possible scenarios are truly quite scary, high gas prices will be the least of our worries Anyway if all goes well I end up with a sweat yacht But if all goes to crap then I�m out of here, take my girlfriend, my 308 and a ton of beer. Beats any insurance policy I know of. Cheers ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Prebble To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:55:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really > slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change. The "time bomb" I worry about is billions of new consumers expected within the next few decades on a planet which many feel has already surpassed it's capacity to sustain the present ridership. I am angstly of similar mind as I see ample evidence for this view. As one familiar example, in my sailing turf of British Columbia once wilderness forests have already been massively whacked...most in-land just far enough to be out of sight of tourists. So, before things get really weird (as if rapidly melting glaciers on this coast aren't) what do you think we have...a decade maybe? Kinda makes all attempts at mitigation essential but perhaps not bio diesel. Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www..yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16546|4193|2008-02-15 22:20:07|theboilerflue|skeg cooling|A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just straight into the skeg?| 16547|4193|2008-02-15 22:54:01|Paul Wilson|Re: skeg cooling|It won't run too cool if you use a thermostat. My 35 Isuzu uses the existing centrifugal water pump and thermostat that came with the engine. The cooling water comes out of the skeg, through the exhaust manifold which preheats the water a bit and then into the engine. With this arrangement, the engine always runs at about 180 degrees. There is no need for a heat exchanger since that's what the skeg cooling replaces. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: theboilerflue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 4:20:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] skeg cooling A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just straight into the skeg? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16548|16494|2008-02-15 23:39:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|But when you add in all the land base transportation of the shipped goods and the factories no longer making the products to ship it is a different gloomy picture. I didn't say it was a good solution just one that few would hope will happen. Interesting artical on MSN today about fuel production. http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp- documentid=5981518>1=10931 We may need them all during the next century of cooling. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It was on Yahoo news. > Aaron > > > Shane Duncan wrote: > "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" > > I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships > are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from > Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. > > "History lesson WW2 Hitler used > coal to make all his fuels." > > So did the South Africans during apartheid due to oil trade sanctions > Not great examples of humanity > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:40:22 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real problem > they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean > cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on > land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental > socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used > coal to make all his fuels. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and > there > > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see > the > > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment > > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the > > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead > zones > > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the > > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > > > Much like everything in this world....lets use it, abuse it, kill > it, > > waste it, and / or change it.. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with > corn > > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, > devoid > > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land > does > > > it > > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > > produce > > > > the crops? James. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > > humidity > > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the > bottom > > > of > > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > > injectors .It > > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > > price > > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and > arrogant. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil.. > > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability > at > > > > some > > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16549|16494|2008-02-16 00:23:36|daletrautman|Re: Diesel smell|Guys on this subject of global overpopulation and resource deplenishment and what the global elite have been planning to do about it for decades now.Check out this video documentary on the new world order called End Game by Alex Jones.This is not conspiracy theory stuff.Everything is well documented.The U.S.and Canada are both losing their sovereignty at lightning speed now in the formation of a north american union.I`m over in N.E. Washington up near the border and a friend of mine who is a border patrol agent gave me a dvd of this.Brent,you would really appreciate this.Type in end game alex jones --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > "'Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really > slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate change.'' > > > The probability is 100% re the oilfields being a time bomb > > It¢s just the probability of when that uncertain. > > I¢ve spent the last 7 years as a research analyst for a large insurance company > Trust me they are taking it very seriously. > > That¢s why I¢m taking 6months off work to build my Brent 31 > > Just in case, it¢s my plan B > > I¢m no conspiracy theorist, just a boring 38 year old back office analyst. > But I did spend the last 6 months researching peak oil and how it would affect future profitability for the company. > The possible scenarios are truly quite scary, high gas prices will be the least of our worries > > Anyway if all goes well I end up with a sweat yacht > But if all goes to crap then I¢m out of here, take my girlfriend, my 308 and a ton of beer. > Beats any insurance policy I know of. > > Cheers > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary Prebble > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 10:55:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > Colin, the ticking clock on oilfields as "time bombs" is a really > > slow and low probability one compared to the current pace of climate > change. > > The "time bomb" I worry about is billions of new consumers expected > within the next few decades on a planet which many feel has already > surpassed it's capacity to sustain the present ridership. I am angstly > of similar mind as I see ample evidence for this view. As one familiar > example, in my sailing turf of British Columbia once wilderness forests > have already been massively whacked...most in-land just far enough to > be out of sight of tourists. So, before things get really weird (as if > rapidly melting glaciers on this coast aren't) what do you think we > have...a decade maybe? Kinda makes all attempts at mitigation > essential but perhaps not bio diesel. > > Gary > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www..yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16550|16494|2008-02-16 00:30:05|redwingster|Re: Diesel smell|Excellent article, thanks for sharing. We will need all those measures AND we will need to work on serious greenhouse gas remediation from industrial processes such as power plants, metal ore refineries, bakeries, breweries, paper plants. AND the scary part is... all of those measures together are probably not going to be enough to avoid unprecedented challenges to human society later in this century. Maybe not very much later. To quote the late Roy Scheider from his role in "Jaws": "I think we need a bigger boat." Interesting artical on MSN today about fuel production. http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp-documentid=5981518>1=10931 We may need them all during the next century of cooling.| 16551|16494|2008-02-16 01:48:07|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years or running out of energy scares. I do beleave enviromental groups line there pockets on the scares and help create them. Example logging co.s in the US with large acerages of privet timber pay enviromental groups to make public timber off limets. Privet timber goes up in price and all proffit. Not about saveing old groth or habitat at all. Oil Companies the same thing even letting them selfs be villanized. They are but willing villins. Auto makers the same thing in way of millage and that fleet average thing so they can build SUVs as well as use good petral to do there MPG testing. Solutions step 1 class action lawsuit agenst the IPCC and enviromental groups and other socialist groups useing GW to redistribute wealth world wide for consperacy and racketeering by all victums of the consperacy. It makes everyone live in a developing one government country poluteing more. The UN and IPCC is only about socialism under one world goverment not saveing the planet. Step 2 hold corperations accountable for their supply and demand skeams. Step 3 Take care of the world and oceans by real science based laws not aggenda. The list goes on. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "redwingster" wrote: > > Excellent article, thanks for sharing. We will need all those measures > AND we will need to work on serious greenhouse gas remediation from > industrial processes such as power plants, metal ore refineries, > bakeries, breweries, paper plants. AND the scary part is... all of > those measures together are probably not going to be enough to avoid > unprecedented challenges to human society later in this century. Maybe > not very much later. To quote the late Roy Scheider from his role > in "Jaws": "I think we need a bigger boat." > > > Interesting artical on MSN today about fuel production. > http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp-documentid=5981518>1=10931 > We may need them all during the next century of cooling. > | 16552|16494|2008-02-16 03:00:05|Michael Casling|Re: Diesel smell|Can I assume that HM Customs and excise is in England? If that is the case may I wonder about the knowledge of the freezing properties of diesel in that clime, compared to the truckers in the mountain areas of BC and the truckers from the prairies. We are talking about maybe zero C in England and minus 35 or more here, and that is a large difference. If you do not think so, you have never been in minus 35 or colder weather. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ANDREW AIREY To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 12:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Many years ago when I was an officer in HM Customs & Excise I did a stint on the road fuel testing unit.This was 3 or 4 years after they'd started putting a red dye in industrial diesel and back in the days of the old high gravity diesels which were notoriously prone to freeze in the winter.A common excuse when you found that someone had been adding paraffin to the diesel was that it was to stop the diesel freezing,although this rang a bit hollow in the case of the garage whose diesel turned out to be 95percent Aladdin pink.A lot of chemical feedstocks will burn perfectly satisfactorily in a diesel engine as well and I once spent a week dipping incoming tankers at a chemical plant with water seeking paste on the dipstick because we'd had a tip off that drivers were abstracting feedstock and replacing it with water so that the weighbridge figures came right. The water wouldn't show up later because they were discharging into water bottomed tanks. Cheers Andy Airey ps tanker drivers also had an alternative use for condoms Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16553|4193|2008-02-16 03:18:42|David A. Frantz|Re: skeg cooling|I would ask for a deeper explanation from your mechanic and maybe a second opinion. I would think that most engines would come with a thermostat of some sort. The other way to look at this is what would happen if you where pumping water out of arctic waters to cool an engine? Dave theboilerflue wrote: > > A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to > think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all > thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a > 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just > straight into the skeg? > > | 16554|16494|2008-02-16 07:46:45|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Can I assume that HM Customs and excise is in England? > If that is the case may I wonder about the knowledge of the freezing properties of diesel in that clime, compared to the truckers in the mountain areas of BC and the truckers from the prairies. We are talking about maybe zero C in England and minus 35 or more here, and that is a large difference. If you do not think so, you have never been in minus 35 or colder weather. > > Michael Hi Michael There's currently a tv program series running here (in the UK) called 'Ice-Road Truckers' - about you crazy guys in Canada who build a road to the northern mineral fields each winter but only when the ice is 18" thick - then run convoys of heavy goods vehicles on it. Makes Britain's waxy diesel problems look a bit tame, not to mention just 2" of snow often bringing our roads to a halt. And just a few wet leaves on the line paralysing our rail network ! Colin| 16555|16494|2008-02-16 07:52:32|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > > The "time bomb" I worry about is billions of new consumers expected > within the next few decades on a planet which many feel has already > surpassed it's capacity to sustain the present ridership. Couldn't agree more - humans are very clever monkeys but not very wise ones. We're very quick to determine and control population criteria for other species, but with the sole exception of China, avoid controlling our own population figures. If the human race was (somehow) immediately reduced to it's 19th century numbers there might be a chance of global survival. All-in-all there's a pretty good case for building a sail-boat right now. Colin| 16556|16533|2008-02-16 11:31:36|Bill Gilroy|Re: Lead on craigslist|Re-sending? On 2/14/08, Bill Gilroy wrote: > > NFI. Location is Issaquah,WA. > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/568517089.html > > Removed from a doctors x-ray room. #2 #2.5 and #4 > > The sheets are full of screw holes, but there is plenty of flashing here! > > Approx. 5 sheets at 4x6 and 2 at 4x8 > > Masons, roofers, x ray techs, craftsmen, reloaders.... > > I can scrap for $0.40 per lb and will so so by end of week. You pick up. > > Scott 206-261-4669 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16557|4193|2008-02-16 11:36:41|Michael Casling|Re: skeg cooling|Water temperature in the lake is 1.9C. The motors run to normal temperature, and then cool quickly when the thermostat opens. This cycle is repeated. Some small outboards do not have thermostats but do have good controls on the carburettor. Or we just use the choke a lot longer. My raw water cooled diesel ( 2QM15 ) runs cool at about 160F by design. Once started the water temperature does not seem to effect it. The 1941 Ford tractor did not come with a thermostat as most farmers were smart enough not to use them in the winter. But now many are being used to plow snow, so a thermostat ( 160F ) is placed in the top radiator hose. At the boat show I learned that some of the new two strokes are computer controlled as to mixture ratio, idle speeds and oil injection which is now separate to the petrol. With the air cooled engines I use, a small change to richen the main jet in the winter works for me. Tractor likes the same treatment. This will probably be my last winter on the frozen tundra as I am heading to the coast in 008. Trade cold for salt. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] skeg cooling I would ask for a deeper explanation from your mechanic and maybe a second opinion. I would think that most engines would come with a thermostat of some sort. The other way to look at this is what would happen if you where pumping water out of arctic waters to cool an engine? Dave theboilerflue wrote: > > A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to > think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all > thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a > 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just > straight into the skeg? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16558|16494|2008-02-16 12:03:35|Michael Casling|Re: Diesel smell|The fuel at the pump is changed to meet the conditions in the interior of BC and the Prairies. But apparently it is not changed at the coast where the temperature is similar to England. The local truckers do not buy diesel at the coast as it causes problems when they get back into colder temeratures. Locally the temperature range is between 35 below and 40 above. And then for the North and the prairies it actually gets cold. Interestly the Northern BC folks can not stand the heat, claiming you can always dress for the cold, but can do nothing to deal with the heat. We only got to minus 20 for a few days this winter. We do not get the strong winds of North East England. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Michael > > There's currently a tv program series running here (in the UK) called > 'Ice-Road Truckers' - about you crazy guys in Canada who build a road > to the northern mineral fields each winter but only when the ice is > 18" thick - then run convoys of heavy goods vehicles on it. Makes > Britain's waxy diesel problems look a bit tame, not to mention just 2" > of snow often bringing our roads to a halt. And just a few wet leaves > on the line paralysing our rail network ! > > Colin > | 16559|16559|2008-02-16 13:08:41|harveyplanes|Human Impact|Check out this article on Human Impact on the oceans http://news.aol.com/story/_a/map-details-human-impact-on- oceans/20080214170709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001| 16560|16559|2008-02-16 13:45:16|Gordon Schnell|Re: Human Impact|Here is the functioning url for "Human Impact on the oceans" G http://news.aol.com/story/_a/map-details-human-impact-on-oceans/20080214170709990001 harveyplanes wrote: > > Check out this article on Human Impact on the oceans > > http://news. aol.com/story/ _a/map-details- human-impact- on- > > oceans/200802141707 09990001? ncid=NWS00010000 000001 > > | 16561|4193|2008-02-16 14:02:45|Gordon Schnell|Re: skeg cooling|David I am running a 1.8L turbo diesel by VW. (Pathfinder Yachts used this. I am using a skeg cooler and a heat exchanger (for house hot water). The heat exchanger is part of the engine as it feeds off the "heater" outlet/inlet at the rear of the block. The thermal load here, depends on the use of hot "house water". The skeg cooler attaches to the radiator ports at the front of the block and is controlled by the thermostat. Heavy use of hot water, on board, appears as lower engine temperature. The thermostat partially closes to limit flow to the skeg cooler. Seems to work well, as it maintains a constant block temperature. Gord David A. Frantz wrote: > > I would ask for a deeper explanation from your mechanic and maybe a > second opinion. I would think that most engines would come with a > thermostat of some sort. The other way to look at this is what would > happen if you where pumping water out of arctic waters to cool an engine? > > Dave > > theboilerflue wrote: > > > > A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to > > think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all > > thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a > > 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just > > straight into the skeg? > > > > > > | 16562|4193|2008-02-16 14:07:00|Gordon Schnell|Re: skeg cooling|Consider this scenario. A diesel automotive engine operates under wide temperature variations (Consider summer/winter operations in the colder climates) and the thermostat maintains constant engine temperatures. The thermostat is the key to making this work. Gord theboilerflue wrote: > > A diesel mechanic today asked about the skeg cooling and he seemed to > think that it would over cool my engine. I was wondering what you all > thought about this I guess it would depend on the engine. Mine is a > 20hp 3 cyl yanmar. Also do you run with a heat exchanger or just > straight into the skeg? > > | 16563|16563|2008-02-16 18:49:17|avedelmar|bilge keels|Does anyone know the draft of the 36´ Swain design if twin keels are used rather than a single keel?| 16564|16563|2008-02-16 20:54:23|kingsknight4life|Re: bilge keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "avedelmar" wrote: > > Does anyone know the draft of the 36´ Swain design if twin keels are > used rather than a single keel? > Around 4.5 ft I beieve. Rowland| 16565|16563|2008-02-17 05:44:43|Shane Duncan|Re: bilge keels|36' Swain design single keel draft = 5' 10" (1,778 mm) ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:54:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bilge keels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "avedelmar" wrote: > > Does anyone know the draft of the 36´ Swain design if twin keels are > used rather than a single keel? > Around 4.5 ft I beieve. Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16566|16494|2008-02-17 06:15:08|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|"Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years or running out of energy sc" Jon It�s healthy to be skeptical That�s how science works But I bet there is a small part of you that�s not 100% certain with global warming and energy supplies running out. There will be an increase in the world�s population of an extra 77,000,000 by the end of this year (New Scientist Magazine-9 Fed 2008) That�s 77 million people who were not around in 2007. That�s over 3.7 times the population of Australia or a quarter the entire population of the USA. " SHI*T " we are running into problems just getting enough fresh water for our own population here in Australia. Nature has a way of sorting these problems out And my bet is she�s not going to be pretty. Anyway, I realize this is off topic but with respect to "come alongs" I can�t rent them here in Western Australia, but I can buy them my options are a 3 tonnes unit and a 1 tones unit. they are expensive so naturally i don't want to buy more than i need. What size and how many would be required to pull to gether a 31 foot hull (plate thickness = 4mm) Note 3/16 = 4.76mm Any help would be much appreciated Cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:39:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell But when you add in all the land base transportation of the shipped goods and the factories no longer making the products to ship it is a different gloomy picture. I didn't say it was a good solution just one that few would hope will happen. Interesting artical on MSN today about fuel production. http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp- documentid=5981518>1=10931 We may need them all during the next century of cooling. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It was on Yahoo news. > Aaron > > > Shane Duncan wrote: > "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" > > I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships > are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released from > Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world shipping. > > "History lesson WW2 Hitler used > coal to make all his fuels." > > So did the South Africans during apartheid due to oil trade sanctions > Not great examples of humanity > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:40:22 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real problem > they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean > cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil and > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on > land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the enviromental > socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used > coal to make all his fuels. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and > there > > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see > the > > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater disappointment > > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever the > > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead > zones > > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day the > > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > > > Much like everything in this world.....lets use it, abuse it, kill > it, > > waste it, and / or change it.. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with > corn > > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of the > > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, > devoid > > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise on > > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land > does > > > it > > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > > produce > > > > the crops? James. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > > humidity > > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the > bottom > > > of > > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > > injectors .It > > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing the > > > price > > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed their > > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and > arrogant. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil... > > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than availability > at > > > > some > > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you hungry. > > > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools..search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16567|16494|2008-02-17 10:34:38|Gary Prebble|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years > or running out of energy scares. Skeptical is good! Healthy skepticism about "accepted" yacht design was Brent's ticket to origami boats. However, on the topic of global warming we gamble recklessly by ignoring the largest group of skeptics ever assembled warning that the dumping ground (earth) for the lethal byproducts of mass consumer global societies has reached "tilt". I've stayed in port lots of times on weather reports that were wrong but I still live by them. To err on the side of caution would be a good strategy at least this once methinks given the totality of what is at stake. P.S... also off topic but this forum vibes with an enriching historical dimension that way Gary| 16568|16494|2008-02-17 12:12:13|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|I did my stints on the Road Fuel Testing unit in 1967/8.If memory serves at that time the heavyweight diesels had a specific gravity round about .820 but Conoco were bringing in a lighter gravity diesel about .800/.810 which made it more difficult to detect the presence of paraffin from specific gravity measurements - unless it was pink(Aladdin) or blue(Esso) which was a giveaway.Industrial diesel came out of the same tank as road fuel,but had a red dye and a couple of chemical markers(Furfural and Quinizarin)added in line prior to delivery.I don't know if diesel freezing had been a problem,although we'd had a couple of cold winters a year or so before,but it was certainly trotted out as an excuse cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16569|16494|2008-02-17 12:42:54|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|The thing that worries me about environmentalists is their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of that once it's adherents started getting into power.The climate may well be warming up but it does that periodically anyway,depending on how the sun is behaving - noone has yet explained to me what caused the rising sea levels in the middle ages which formed the Norfolk Broads in the UK and the Zuider Zee in Holland(You could grow grapes as far north as Newcastle as well).If the price of oil stays near it's present level that will probably do more to ensure the development of alternative forms of energy than than any pious platitudes from the greens could. cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16570|16570|2008-02-17 15:16:49|Aaron|Milkstone acid rince for rust|One of the guys on the PA Blaster group posted this on rust removing http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_Sandblasting/ I dont know if the link works this way these guys have a realy cool way to build your own small sandblast pot. I thought Toms looked a lot like it. Aaron FIND A TRACTOR SUPPLY STORE IN YOUR AREA, PURCHASE A GALLON MILKSTONE ACID RINSE. THIS IS A SOAP CONTAINING PHOSPHORIC ACID & IS USED TO SANITIZE MILKING MACHINES. PHOSPHORIC ACID IS VERY MILD, IS WHAT BURNS YOUR THROAT WHEN YOU DOWN A SOFT DRINK A LITTLE TO QUICK SO IT IS SAFE. A GALLON WILL SET YOU BACK $8 & CAN BE MIXED WITH UP TO 10 GALLONS OF WATER. I HAVE BEEN USING THE SAME 40 GALLON MIX IN A PLASTIC BARREL DIP TANK FOR OVER A YEAR & IT IS STILL AS EFFECTIVE AS IT WAS THE DAY I MIXED IT. IT WILL REMOVE THE HEAVIEST RUST YOU CAN THROW AT IT IN A COUPLE HOURS TO A FEW DAYS. ONCE THE RUST IS GONE ALLOW THE PART TO AIR DRY & IT WILL BE PROTECTED FROM FUTURE RUST BY A FINE WHITE PHOSPHORUS COATING WHICH CAN BE RINSED OFF WITH A WATER HOSE BEFORE PAINTING. ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FIRE AWAY I WILL TRY TO ANSWER ROB - AGAIN I AM JUST TRYING TO ADD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THIS FINE GROUP DONZIE| 16571|16494|2008-02-17 15:17:15|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel smell|On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > that once it's adherents started getting into > power. This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific knowledge to understand. Emotionally-loaded arguments about messianic qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16572|16572|2008-02-17 15:30:05|inter4905|rust and hull leakage|Hi everybody, A welder told me that when a steel plate rust, after a while a pin hole can form through the plate. If this happens on a boat hull it will logicaly cause a leak. I would like to know if this is a common problem encounter with steel sailboats. Martin| 16573|16572|2008-02-17 16:33:33|brentswain38|Re: rust and hull leakage|It's extremely rare on a properly painted hull. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi everybody, > > A welder told me that when a steel plate rust, after a while a pin hole can form through the > plate. If this happens on a boat hull it will logicaly cause a leak. > I would like to know if this is a common problem encounter with steel sailboats. > > Martin > | 16574|16570|2008-02-17 16:35:25|brentswain38|Re: Milkstone acid rince for rust|Acids tend to stay on the metal and cause accelerated corrosion long after you have made your best atempts to wash it off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > > > One of the guys on the PA Blaster group posted this on rust removing > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_Sandblasting/ > I dont know if the link works this way these guys have a realy cool > way to build your own small sandblast pot. I thought Toms looked a > lot like it. > Aaron > > > > FIND A TRACTOR SUPPLY STORE IN YOUR AREA, PURCHASE A GALLON > MILKSTONE ACID RINSE. THIS IS A SOAP CONTAINING PHOSPHORIC ACID & IS > USED TO SANITIZE MILKING MACHINES. PHOSPHORIC ACID IS VERY MILD, IS > WHAT BURNS YOUR THROAT WHEN YOU DOWN A SOFT DRINK A LITTLE TO QUICK > SO IT IS SAFE. A GALLON WILL SET YOU BACK $8 & CAN BE MIXED WITH UP > TO 10 GALLONS OF WATER. > I HAVE BEEN USING THE SAME 40 GALLON MIX IN A PLASTIC BARREL DIP TANK > FOR OVER A YEAR & IT IS STILL AS EFFECTIVE AS IT WAS THE DAY I MIXED > IT. IT WILL REMOVE THE HEAVIEST RUST YOU CAN THROW AT IT IN A COUPLE > HOURS TO A FEW DAYS. ONCE THE RUST IS GONE ALLOW THE PART TO AIR DRY > & IT WILL BE PROTECTED FROM FUTURE RUST BY A FINE WHITE PHOSPHORUS > COATING WHICH CAN BE RINSED OFF WITH A WATER HOSE BEFORE PAINTING. > ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FIRE AWAY I WILL TRY TO ANSWER > ROB - AGAIN I AM JUST TRYING TO ADD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THIS FINE > GROUP > DONZIE > | 16575|16494|2008-02-17 16:51:56|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|It would be incredibly naive, and totally wishful thinking to believe that burning oil at the current and expanding rates,and billions of exhuast pipes will have no effect. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years > or running out of energy scares. I do beleave enviromental groups line > there pockets on the scares and help create them. Example logging co.s > in the US with large acerages of privet timber pay enviromental groups > to make public timber off limets. Privet timber goes up in price and > all proffit. Not about saveing old groth or habitat at all. Oil > Companies the same thing even letting them selfs be villanized. They > are but willing villins. Auto makers the same thing in way of millage > and that fleet average thing so they can build SUVs as well as use good > petral to do there MPG testing. Solutions step 1 class action lawsuit > agenst the IPCC and enviromental groups and other socialist groups > useing GW to redistribute wealth world wide for consperacy and > racketeering by all victums of the consperacy. It makes everyone live > in a developing one government country poluteing more. The UN and IPCC > is only about socialism under one world goverment not saveing the > planet. Step 2 hold corperations accountable for their supply and > demand skeams. Step 3 Take care of the world and oceans by real science > based laws not aggenda. The list goes on. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "redwingster" > wrote: > > > > Excellent article, thanks for sharing. We will need all those > measures > > AND we will need to work on serious greenhouse gas remediation from > > industrial processes such as power plants, metal ore refineries, > > bakeries, breweries, paper plants. AND the scary part is... all of > > those measures together are probably not going to be enough to avoid > > unprecedented challenges to human society later in this century. > Maybe > > not very much later. To quote the late Roy Scheider from his role > > in "Jaws": "I think we need a bigger boat." > > > > > > Interesting artical on MSN today about fuel production. > > http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp-documentid=5981518>1=10931 > > We may need them all during the next century of cooling. > > > | 16576|16494|2008-02-17 16:53:29|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Some worry about the temp fluctuating, but I never have, and have never had a problem with that.The thermostat has handled it well. Brent > > > > There's currently a tv program series running here (in the UK) called > > 'Ice-Road Truckers' - about you crazy guys in Canada who build a road > > to the northern mineral fields each winter but only when the ice is > > 18" thick - then run convoys of heavy goods vehicles on it. Makes > > Britain's waxy diesel problems look a bit tame, not to mention just 2" > > of snow often bringing our roads to a halt. And just a few wet leaves > > on the line paralysing our rail network ! > > > > Colin > > > | 16577|16494|2008-02-17 17:04:06|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Some are messianics ,while living in grossly oversized homes ,who, after filling their recycling boxes, then driving their SUV's or motorhomes to the polls to vote for the green party, then drive their motorhomes to the airport to fly halfway around the world.Move aboard a cruising boat and go everywhere you can under sail and your environmental impact drops to a tiny fraction of what it would have been. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > that once it's adherents started getting into > power.The climate may well be warming up but it does > that periodically anyway,depending on how the sun is > behaving - noone has yet explained to me what caused > the rising sea levels in the middle ages which formed > the Norfolk Broads in the UK and the Zuider Zee in > Holland(You could grow grapes as far north as > Newcastle as well).If the price of oil stays near it's > present level that will probably do more to ensure the > development of alternative forms of energy than than > any pious platitudes from the greens could. > cheers > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 16578|16494|2008-02-17 17:58:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Can I assume that HM Customs and excise is in England? > If that is the case may I wonder about the knowledge of the freezing properties of diesel in that clime, compared to the truckers in the mountain areas of BC and the truckers from the prairies. We are talking about maybe zero C in England and minus 35 or more here, and that is a large difference. If you do not think so, you have never been in minus 35 or colder weather. > > Michael Michael, According to the UK Met Office the lowest recorded temperature was minus 26.1°C at Newport Shropshire on the 10th of January 1982. I was in the UK Midlands then and I remember my car wouldn't start, the buses were all stopped with waxy fuel and after walking 4 miles to college my moustache was hanging with icicles. Last night it was about -6°C and the forecast is for the same tonight. That said it is unusual to get really cold weather nowadays. Last Monday it was 6°C at night and 13°C during the day. Regards, Ted| 16579|16570|2008-02-17 18:13:04|ian46abc|Re: Milkstone acid rince for rust|Tried acid, dipped metal engine exhaust manifold from Yanmar diesel engine in acid. Neutralised with alkali and much rinsing. Never again! Rust reappears. As Brent says, the acid stays on the metal.| 16580|16494|2008-02-17 20:21:31|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Well said Brent. I've often thought that if everyone had to spend a year aboard a small boat and survive the change in perspective would go a long way to solving our current dilemma. Most folks on land don't even grasp that running the water from their tap is a form of energy use. Most folks on a sailboat can't fathom leaving a tap running. Darren At 02:04 PM 17/02/2008, you wrote: >Some are messianics ,while living in grossly oversized homes ,who, >after filling their recycling boxes, then driving their SUV's or >motorhomes to the polls to vote for the green party, then drive their >motorhomes to the airport to fly halfway around the world.Move aboard >a cruising boat and go everywhere you can under sail and your >environmental impact drops to a tiny fraction of what it would have been. > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > > their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > > 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > > socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > > at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > > that once it's adherents started getting into > > power.The climate may well be warming up but it does > > that periodically anyway,depending on how the sun is > > behaving - noone has yet explained to me what caused > > the rising sea levels in the middle ages which formed > > the Norfolk Broads in the UK and the Zuider Zee in > > Holland(You could grow grapes as far north as > > Newcastle as well).If the price of oil stays near it's > > present level that will probably do more to ensure the > > development of alternative forms of energy than than > > any pious platitudes from the greens could. > > cheers > > Andy Airey > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16581|16494|2008-02-17 20:37:52|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > "Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years > or running out of energy sc" > > > Jon > It¢s healthy to be skeptical > That¢s how science works > > But I bet there is a small part of you that¢s not 100% certain with global warming and energy supplies running out. > > There will be an increase in the world¢s population of an extra 77,000,000 by the end of this year (New Scientist Magazine-9 Fed 2008) > That¢s 77 million people who were not around in 2007. That¢s over 3.7 times the population of Australia or a quarter the entire population of the USA. > " SHI*T " we are running into problems just getting enough fresh water for our own population here in Australia. > > Nature has a way of sorting these problems out > And my bet is she¢s not going to be pretty. > > Anyway, I realize this is off topic > but with respect to "come alongs" > > I can¢t rent them here in Western Australia, but I can buy them > > my options are a 3 tonnes unit and a 1 tones unit. > > they are expensive so naturally i don't want to buy more than i need. > What size and how many would be required to pull to gether a 31 foot hull (plate thickness = 4mm) > Note 3/16 = 4.76mm They aren't expensive, shop around. I can buy a 1.6 tonne unit for less than $200 here in Hobart, Tas. It's made in China but judging by the smaller units (I have 2 of the 250 kg and one of the 800 kg models) it'll work fine. I also have a couple of Chinese made chain blocks and never had a problem with them. PDW| 16582|16494|2008-02-17 22:04:26|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel smell|We can all debate back and forth forever about the different theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences are of our wrong theory. If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer to me. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > that once it's adherents started getting into > power. This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about messianic qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16583|16572|2008-02-17 22:22:24|martin demers|Re: rust and hull leakage|The reason I am asking this is; I saw a used unpainted hull for sale and it has beeen siting there for a few year and there is a lot of surface rust on it. Once sandblasted and painted with good marine paint would it be sealed conveniently? Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:33:20 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > It's extremely rare on a properly painted hull. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi everybody, >> >> A welder told me that when a steel plate rust, after a while a pin > hole can form through the >> plate. If this happens on a boat hull it will logicaly cause a leak. >> I would like to know if this is a common problem encounter with > steel sailboats. >> >> Martin >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16584|16494|2008-02-17 22:22:51|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|Altenatives are being discovered and worked on and when they are cost effective will be mass produced. In the interm we need to save our econamy to afford to work on altenatives rather then wast the money on poor technolagy. Food for fuel and the wars over shortages will take care of the population boom. Wait CO2 produces bigger and better crops the GW heat will make longer growing seasons. No wait cut back on the CO2 and it will get colder so more people will die from the cold like the do now. In the 60 it was said there would only be standing room by now. In the 70s it was Global Cooling. In the 80s it was running out of gas. In the 90s it was Global Warming. Now in 2000 they are talking about Global Cooling again. We can take better care of the enviroment then we have but most of what I have seen enviromental groups do is more harm then good. Water can be used more wisely like recycle waste water it is done in many countries. Personaly warmer is better and the animals will addapt better then we will like they have for tens of thousands of years. CO2 is not a problem we could burn all the hydro carbens and it would not double or over heat the earth. Plants the foundation food of all living things would thrive. Countries and people would have more food and a better life with less strife. Sadly nature knows how to ballence things even if it kills some of us that think we can controle it. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Shane Duncan wrote: > > "Sorry I don't buy into the CO2 scare or lack of cheap energy for years > or running out of energy sc" > > > Jon > It¢s healthy to be skeptical > That¢s how science works > > But I bet there is a small part of you that¢s not 100% certain with global warming and energy supplies running out. > > There will be an increase in the world¢s population of an extra 77,000,000 by the end of this year (New Scientist Magazine-9 Fed 2008) > That¢s 77 million people who were not around in 2007. That¢s over 3.7 times the population of Australia or a quarter the entire population of the USA. > " SHI*T " we are running into problems just getting enough fresh water for our own population here in Australia. > > Nature has a way of sorting these problems out > And my bet is she¢s not going to be pretty. > > Anyway, I realize this is off topic > but with respect to "come alongs" > > I can¢t rent them here in Western Australia, but I can buy them > > my options are a 3 tonnes unit and a 1 tones unit. > > they are expensive so naturally i don't want to buy more than i need. > What size and how many would be required to pull to gether a 31 foot hull (plate thickness = 4mm) > Note 3/16 = 4.76mm > > Any help would be much appreciated > > Cheers > shane > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:39:13 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > But when you add in all the land base transportation of the shipped > goods and the factories no longer making the products to ship it is a > different gloomy picture. I didn't say it was a good solution just > one that few would hope will happen. Interesting artical on MSN today > about fuel production. > http://men.msn.com/greenarticlees.aspx?cp- > documentid=5981518>1=10931 > We may need them all during the next century of cooling. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > On world trade scale. They released surveys just this week that > said something 4.5% of co2 emissions come from shipping traffic. It > was on Yahoo news. > > Aaron > > > > > > Shane Duncan wrote: > > "'Ships involved in international trade burn more oil and > > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on'" > > > > I would dispute that, modern diesel powered displacement hull ships > > are very efficient. I would guess there would be more CO2 released > from > > Just aluminium and steel manufacturing alone than all the world > shipping. > > > > "History lesson WW2 Hitler used > > coal to make all his fuels." > > > > So did the South Africans during apartheid due to oil trade > sanctions > > Not great examples of humanity > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:40:22 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > Vial- fuel is what it should be called. If CO2 where the real > problem > > they make it to be they would demand the end of shipping and ocean > > cruse lines.. Ships envolved in international trade burn more oil > and > > release more CO2 then all the cars factories and power plants on > > land. In the US it isn't we don't have the resorces the > enviromental > > socalists won't let us get to them. History lesson WW2 Hitler used > > coal to make all his fuels. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harveyplanes" wrote: > > > > > > I work at the mouth of Mississippi River at South West Pass and > > there > > > are many times, espically in the spring and fall when you can see > > the > > > algae. It's amazing there is so much of it. The dead zone exists. > > > It's sad that this has happened, but even a greater > disappointment > > > that shipping is more important than the enviroment. What ever > the > > > costs for a buck right? Sad. On the good side, outside the dead > > zones > > > the wildlife is still very abundant...for now... > > > > > > I am orginally from Charleston, South Carolina and to this day > the > > > fishing is lousy there due to Japanese floating fish factories > > > sitting offshore during the 60's and 70's. > > > > > > Much like everything in this world.....lets use it, abuse it, kill > > it, > > > waste it, and / or change it.. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > With the Mississipi runoff from land that is being loaded with > > corn > > > > fertilizer( amonium nitrate) a huge area around the mouth of > the > > > > Mississipi and the Florida panhandle has become a dead zone, > > devoid > > > > of all life but the resulting algae bloom, thanks to the rise > on > > > > corn prices due to the demand for biofuel. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bio-diesil is still admitting greenhouse gas. How much land > > does > > > > it > > > > > take to produce a liter and how much fuil is being burn to > > > produce > > > > > the crops? James. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Another down side is it is hydroscopic in anything over 10% > > > > humidity > > > > > > and will draw moisture out of the air and deposit in the > > bottom > > > > of > > > > > > your fuel tank, eventually blowing the tips off your > > > > injectors .It > > > > > > also disolves fibreglass tanks. > > > > > > It is anything but environmentally friendly, and forcing > the > > > > price > > > > > > of third world food higher than they can afford to feed > their > > > > > > families with, in order to power SUVs etc., is politically > > > > > > unfriendly , in fact just plain politically slimy and > > arrogant. > > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: polaris041 > > > > > > > Date: 2/13/2008 2:06:30 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friend of mine has been using bio-diesil... > > > > > > > Don't know if it as any down sides other than > availability > > at > > > > > some > > > > > > > places, but the smell is just fine. Almost makes you > hungry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > later pol > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools..search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php? category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16585|16494|2008-02-17 23:55:13|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Diesel smell|People seem to lump the whole "Global Warming" together and package it so that really simple solutions can be offered. It seems to me that several separate and distinct issues are at play. 1. Is global warming occurring? And if so, what is the extent of it? Learned and thoughtful people are debating the data and the extrapolated projections. The original source data has been revised (to reflect less warming) at least a few times as further analysis has uncovered flaws in the data. Now it would appear that a large percentage of the temperature monitoring stations on which the analysis depended have been found to not observe even the most basic tenets of measurement protocol.. 2. Assuming it can be established that Global Warming is occurring, Can we establish that the actions of mankind are the cause? And if so to what extent? Exact causation seems to be elusive. We seem to me to be basing much of what is reported on statistical correlation., which is not the same thing at all. Even if we establish a direct link as to cause, How much is mankind contributing and how much is a natural process? If we find (an example, not a real number) that greenhouse gasses are the culprit and that mankind's contribution is only 5% of the total, then, completely wiping ourselves off the earth (making sure to use an environmentally friendly process!) won't have much impact. 3. Even if we decide to go ahead and undertake some action to mitigate an identified problem. what will the developing countries be doing? First and second world countries are already doing a great deal to provide themselves with clean air and water. We could do a great deal more to reduce our energy consumption and garbage production and export. We may however only be in control of a small percentage of the problem. (20% of 5% ?) But I think that getting the last few percentage points may be quite costly. I'm reminded about the theories of population explosion. The net result appears to be that thoughtful, intelligent and educated people have far fewer children leaving the rest to reproduce with wild abandon. The population growth doesn't seem to be slowing a whole lot in many places. But, the population is demonstrably dumber. Is this what we need? So, I guess the upshot of all this is Use less energy, demand less packaging, don't crap where you eat, and don't spend billions or trillions of whatever trying to solve a problem that may or may not exist, that you may or may not be in control of to any meaningful extent, that your neighbor is for sure going to ignore. and that whatever method you use to try to solve is just as likely to make worse while introducing entirely new maybe more horrific consequences. "just in case they are right" end of rant Dale Paul Wilson wrote: > We can all debate back and forth forever about the different theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences are of our wrong theory. > > If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). > > If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer to me. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > >> The thing that worries me about environmentalists is >> their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The >> 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as >> socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look >> at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of >> that once it's adherents started getting into >> power. >> > > This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and > perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are > fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says > nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. > > As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* > contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by > leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. > Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - > that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. > Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. > > All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific > knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about messianic > qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. > > | 16586|16494|2008-02-18 00:05:41|Michael Casling|Re: Diesel smell|-26.1C in the interior of BC and nothing changes, normal day but a bit chilly for those downtown. For the rural folk it means you check the water troughs and it is too cold for lambing. For the prairie folks it is a heat wave and finally you can start the car to get some groceries. At -15C I plug in the 1941 Ford tractor, but it will start anyway. -30 tends to stop most non reliable vehicles, -35 why bother to try. Darn marina froze last night but I fired up the Yanmar anyway. We are getting plus 5 to 8 during the day but still freezing ove night. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > According to the UK Met Office the lowest recorded temperature was > minus 26.1°C at Newport Shropshire on the 10th of January 1982. I > was in the UK Midlands then and I remember my car wouldn't start, the > buses were all stopped with waxy fuel and after walking 4 miles to > college my moustache was hanging with icicles. Last night it was > about -6°C and the forecast is for the same tonight. That said it is > unusual to get really cold weather nowadays. Last Monday it was 6°C > at night and 13°C during the day. > > Regards, Ted > | 16587|16494|2008-02-18 01:32:19|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|The oil and coal we have burnt over the last 100 years Took over 300 million years of sunlight energy to capture the CO2 in the atmosphere and combine it with the Hydrogen in the water to produce the hydrocarbons we are burning today. All of this trapped CO2 is being released in a very short space in time This is not controversial. I agree with Paul what the worst that can happen if we do try and solve this supposed problem.. The economy slows down we stop buy ridiculously large sized houses. We buy fewer Flat screens T.Vs, electric pepper grinders and other useless pieces of plastic crap made in China. God help us we might even have to grow some vegetables in our back yard. We are obsessed with economic growth at any cost. The US Department of Energy has just pulled out of (FutureGen) a deal to build the world�s first full Scale Carbon capture and storage coal power plant. The European commission announced two weeks ago that there was ''no possibility of significant funding from the EU budget for CCS'' Too expensive might slow down economic growth ----- Original Message ---- From: Dale J. Robertson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 1:55:23 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell People seem to lump the whole "Global Warming" together and package it so that really simple solutions can be offered. It seems to me that several separate and distinct issues are at play. 1. Is global warming occurring? And if so, what is the extent of it? Learned and thoughtful people are debating the data and the extrapolated projections. The original source data has been revised (to reflect less warming) at least a few times as further analysis has uncovered flaws in the data. Now it would appear that a large percentage of the temperature monitoring stations on which the analysis depended have been found to not observe even the most basic tenets of measurement protocol.. 2. Assuming it can be established that Global Warming is occurring, Can we establish that the actions of mankind are the cause? And if so to what extent? Exact causation seems to be elusive. We seem to me to be basing much of what is reported on statistical correlation., which is not the same thing at all. Even if we establish a direct link as to cause, How much is mankind contributing and how much is a natural process? If we find (an example, not a real number) that greenhouse gasses are the culprit and that mankind's contribution is only 5% of the total, then, completely wiping ourselves off the earth (making sure to use an environmentally friendly process!) won't have much impact. 3. Even if we decide to go ahead and undertake some action to mitigate an identified problem. what will the developing countries be doing? First and second world countries are already doing a great deal to provide themselves with clean air and water. We could do a great deal more to reduce our energy consumption and garbage production and export. We may however only be in control of a small percentage of the problem. (20% of 5% ?) But I think that getting the last few percentage points may be quite costly. I'm reminded about the theories of population explosion. The net result appears to be that thoughtful, intelligent and educated people have far fewer children leaving the rest to reproduce with wild abandon. The population growth doesn't seem to be slowing a whole lot in many places. But, the population is demonstrably dumber. Is this what we need? So, I guess the upshot of all this is Use less energy, demand less packaging, don't crap where you eat, and don't spend billions or trillions of whatever trying to solve a problem that may or may not exist, that you may or may not be in control of to any meaningful extent, that your neighbor is for sure going to ignore. and that whatever method you use to try to solve is just as likely to make worse while introducing entirely new maybe more horrific consequences. "just in case they are right" end of rant Dale Paul Wilson wrote: > We can all debate back and forth forever about the different theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences are of our wrong theory. > > If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). > > If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer to me. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > >> The thing that worries me about environmentalists is >> their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The >> 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as >> socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look >> at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of >> that once it's adherents started getting into >> power. >> > > This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and > perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are > fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says > nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. > > As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* > contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by > leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. > Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - > that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. > Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. > > All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific > knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about messianic > qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16588|16494|2008-02-18 03:20:39|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or two. For those that have never heard of the IPCC report it is basically a compilation of scientific data on climate change from around the world. All published data is considered, academics who really care about sweating over the details argue back and forth and when possible come to conclusions. They also provide statements on the degree of agreement and certainty in the data. Unlike most sources that refute climate change the IPCC provides references to back up what they say (you have to read the full report, not just the FAQ to get the references). So, if something smells fishy you can go look up the original publication. If that still doesn't sound right you could even call up the original researcher. Better yet, if he lives nearby call him up and offer to buy him a pint to discuss his research. Once he gets over the shock that someone actually cared about the details of his/her research he is likely to take you up on your offer and maybe even buy the next round as the discussion goes on. Anyway, back to the challenge. I spent nearly a decade in university, with about half of that in a field (paleolimnology) closely related to climate change research. Tuition seemed pretty steep while I was paying for it, but the fact is Canadian tax dollars also paid for a big chunk of that time. So, here is your chance to get something back out of those taxes. Read the FAQ, if you can't make sense of part of it, or if you think part of it just isn't true, let me know. I'll do my best to provide more information. The URL for the FAQ is: http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf Cheers, Darren At 08:55 PM 17/02/2008, you wrote: >People seem to lump the whole "Global Warming" together and package it >so that really simple solutions can be offered. It seems to me that >several separate and distinct issues are at play. > >1. Is global warming occurring? And if so, what is the extent of it? >Learned and thoughtful people are debating the data and the >extrapolated projections. The original source data has been >revised (to reflect less warming) at least a few times as further >analysis has uncovered flaws in the data. Now it would >appear that a large percentage of the temperature >monitoring stations on which the analysis depended have been found to >not observe even the most basic tenets of measurement protocol.. >2. Assuming it can be established that Global Warming is occurring, Can >we establish that the actions of mankind are the cause? And if >so to what extent? Exact causation seems to be elusive. We seem to >me to be basing much of what is reported on statistical >correlation., which is not the same thing at all. Even if we >establish a direct link as to cause, How much is mankind contributing >and how much is a natural process? If we find (an example, not a >real number) that greenhouse gasses are the culprit and >that mankind's contribution is only 5% of the total, then, completely >wiping ourselves off the earth (making sure to use an >environmentally friendly process!) won't have much impact. >3. Even if we decide to go ahead and undertake some action to mitigate >an identified problem. what will the developing countries be doing? >First and second world countries are already doing a great deal to >provide themselves with clean air and water. We could do a great >deal more to reduce our energy consumption and garbage >production and export. We may however only be in control of a small >percentage of the problem. (20% of 5% ?) But I think that >getting the last few percentage points may be quite costly. I'm >reminded about the theories of population explosion. The net result >appears to be that thoughtful, intelligent and educated people have >far fewer children leaving the rest to reproduce with wild >abandon. The population growth doesn't seem to be slowing a whole lot in >many places. >But, the population is demonstrably dumber. Is this what we need? > >So, I guess the upshot of all this is >Use less energy, demand less packaging, don't crap where you eat, and >don't spend billions or trillions of whatever trying to solve a problem >that may or may not exist, that you may or may not be in control of to >any meaningful extent, that your neighbor is for sure going to ignore. >and that whatever method you use to try to solve is just as likely to >make worse while introducing entirely new maybe more horrific >consequences. "just in case they are right" > >end of rant > >Dale >Paul Wilson wrote: > > We can all debate back and forth forever about the different > theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is > what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences > are of our wrong theory. > > > > If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end > up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). > > > > If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming > are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up > environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round > disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer to me. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik <ben@...> > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > >> The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > >> their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > >> 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > >> socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > >> at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > >> that once it's adherents started getting into > >> power. > >> > > > > This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and > > perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are > > fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says > > nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. > > > > As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* > > contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by > > leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. > > Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - > > that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. > > Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. > > > > All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific > > knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about messianic > > qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16589|16572|2008-02-18 05:31:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: rust and hull leakage|Martin, If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in untreated tanks for a while. Regards, Ted| 16590|16570|2008-02-18 09:30:42|will jones|Re: Milkstone acid rince for rust|I would think it would act as a mild corrosion protector since one should be making iron phosphate. If anyone tests this, please let us know if you get any rectangular patterns on the steel. They will be about 2-3mm x 1mm and look like a bunch of rectangular confetti lying on the steel. Aaron wrote: One of the guys on the PA Blaster group posted this on rust removing http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_Sandblasting/ I dont know if the link works this way these guys have a realy cool way to build your own small sandblast pot. I thought Toms looked a lot like it. Aaron FIND A TRACTOR SUPPLY STORE IN YOUR AREA, PURCHASE A GALLON MILKSTONE ACID RINSE. THIS IS A SOAP CONTAINING PHOSPHORIC ACID & IS USED TO SANITIZE MILKING MACHINES. PHOSPHORIC ACID IS VERY MILD, IS WHAT BURNS YOUR THROAT WHEN YOU DOWN A SOFT DRINK A LITTLE TO QUICK SO IT IS SAFE. A GALLON WILL SET YOU BACK $8 & CAN BE MIXED WITH UP TO 10 GALLONS OF WATER. I HAVE BEEN USING THE SAME 40 GALLON MIX IN A PLASTIC BARREL DIP TANK FOR OVER A YEAR & IT IS STILL AS EFFECTIVE AS IT WAS THE DAY I MIXED IT. IT WILL REMOVE THE HEAVIEST RUST YOU CAN THROW AT IT IN A COUPLE HOURS TO A FEW DAYS. ONCE THE RUST IS GONE ALLOW THE PART TO AIR DRY & IT WILL BE PROTECTED FROM FUTURE RUST BY A FINE WHITE PHOSPHORUS COATING WHICH CAN BE RINSED OFF WITH A WATER HOSE BEFORE PAINTING. ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FIRE AWAY I WILL TRY TO ANSWER ROB - AGAIN I AM JUST TRYING TO ADD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THIS FINE GROUP DONZIE Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16591|16570|2008-02-18 09:48:35|will jones|Re: Milkstone acid rince for rust|Sorry, this concept is myth, especially with an alkali rinse. If you are using a strong mineral acid such as sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, or nitric acid, they will easily rinse off with water. Even organic acids like acetic acid will rinse off easily with water. I started my career as a chemist working in a factory that used a half dozen different types of acid baths to prep steel for corrosion protection with galvanize, plating, and zinc phosphate. What is happening is that one is making the surface of the metal more microscopically rough and opening up opportunities for oxidation to take place more rapidly. You are actually increasing the surface area and hence more area for rusting. Hit it with oxygen and boom rust. Many of the properties inhibiting rust in the steel matrix are now etched away leaving readily oxidized iron. The acid typically puts iron in a reduced valence making it highly susceptable to oxidation. Phosphoric acid will form an iron phosphate corrosion inhibitor. Alot depends on strength, usually you need concentrated phosphoric acid above 150F to get any reasonable crystal development. This only adds marginal protection to the steel. Zinc phosphate is much better. If you do nothing to protect steel after etching with acid, you are going to get rust. Any mineral acid will etch carbon steel. ian46abc wrote: Tried acid, dipped metal engine exhaust manifold from Yanmar diesel engine in acid. Neutralised with alkali and much rinsing. Never again! Rust reappears. As Brent says, the acid stays on the metal. Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16592|16494|2008-02-18 09:52:47|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > two. "[....] global warming is more and more taking on an aspect of manipulation, which really looks like a 'scientific' deception, and of which the first victims are the climatologists who receive funding only when their work goes along with the IPCC." "A number of global warming skeptics [....] assert that grant money is given preferentially to supporters of global warming theory." "But there is a more sinister side to this feeding frenzy. Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their grant funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves libeled as industry stooges, scientific hacks or worse. Consequently, lies about climate change gain credence even when they fly in the face of the science that supposedly is their basis." For sources of these quotes, and 'the other side of the argument', see: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Climate_change_skeptics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy Colin| 16593|16572|2008-02-18 12:32:14|martin demers|Re: rust and hull leakage|Ted, It has been raining and snowing inside for maybe 4 or 5 years, so in some places there is more then just surface rust, the rust has started to penetrate in the metal Once sandblasted and painted do you think it could still be a good hull? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tedstone@... > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > Martin, > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in untreated > tanks for a while. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16594|16572|2008-02-18 12:38:22|martin demers|Re: rust and hull leakage|Ted, This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. Is there a treatment for pinholes? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tedstone@... > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > Martin, > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in untreated > tanks for a while. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16595|16572|2008-02-18 12:52:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: rust and hull leakage|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > Ted, > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > Martin Martin, I cannot say how bad it is, but from experience, sand blasting rust usually shows the steel to be worse than expected. I am no expert on treating pinholes. On the farm when a lad my Dad hammered sharpened wooden sticks into the pinholes in the bottom of the water tank, but I guess that might be frowned upon in a boat. Regards, Ted| 16596|16596|2008-02-18 13:01:36|jfpacuas|Rigging References|Hi folks, Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting to think of such things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. Thanks Paul| 16597|16494|2008-02-18 13:15:00|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Warning, this is yet another long message on climate change, if you are tired of them just hit delete. Colin The Wikipedia page appears to provide a fairly balanced view of the scientific process, including the IPCC. The part that I think gets overlooked, especially in the general news, is that equal time if given to both sides of the debate. The number of studies that are consistent with anthropogenic climate warming greatly outweigh those that don't and the number of scientists that support the view that climate change is human caused greatly outweighs those that don't. However, the media still gives equal weight to both sides. Climate is complex so it would be unexpected for the data to be entirely consistent. Individuals have their own agendas so it is not surprising you don't get complete agreement. However, even reading through the Wikipedia site you can see that there is very broad agreement on warming, broad agreement that the warming is human caused and that most of the disagreement is focused on the details of computer models and exactly how warm things are going to get. You can also see that there is about an equal number of folks criticizing the IPCC for being too conservative as there are criticizing the predictions for being to aggressive. That kind of balance makes me comfortable that the IPCC is probably doing a pretty decent job of a managing a scientifically difficult problem. The argument that scientists funding is dependent on the IPCC and those that don't agree with the IPCC don't get funding just doesn't wash. The majority of the science in the IPCC comes from individual researchers that get the bulk of their funding from agencies within their own countries. In general (I'm not familiar with the programs in all countries) whether or not a proposal is funded is determined by a group of that scientist peers who review the proposal on scientific merit. I think it is worth pointing out that many of the folks who refute human-caused global warming are the ones who are directly making money from creating controversy that really doesn't exist in the larger scientific community. It's funny how history repeats itself. When Acid Rain first became an issue there was a large increase in research, uncertainties became resolved and things moved toward scientific consensus. However, there was industry funded science that received equal exposure in the press and generated a lot of uncertainty in the general public long after the larger scientific community had reached consensus. Eventually the research refuting acid rain crumpled under the overwhelming research that was consistent with acid rain. It is surprising how long it takes public policy to catch up. However, eventually laws were changed and many of the areas affected by acid rain are on there way to recovery. Unfortunately, climate change will not be as easy to set back as acid rain was. I think about climate change in much the same way as I prepare the boat before I head out. I look at all the available data I can get, go through all the scenarios I can ponder up and then make sure I am prepared for the worst of them. I try a balance preparation with the likelihood of risk. I don't outlay the expense of an EPIRB because I think the risks don't justify the costs given that I travel short distances in the Straight of Georgia. I don't have a liferaft, but I make sure the dinghy is ready to go should I run into the unlikely event of getting holed by a log or other debris. Climate change is the same kind of situation, there are those who advocate extreme actions on both sides, but they are in the minority. What we need to do is start right now to give ourselves as much time as possible to adapt to the changes that are taking place. The sad part is that we haven't even picked the low lying fruit yet. With little effort most homes could significantly reduce their energy consumption with little effort. We could demand that new homes and new cars meet higher levels of efficiency. We could stop building bigger roads to service suburbs an hour out of town and build train service instead (this line will probably read strangely for those in Europe who already have comparatively good train service). Anyway, try reading the IPCC FAQ or report, what do you have to lose? Darren At 06:52 AM 18/02/2008, you wrote: >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are > > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it > > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time > > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > > two. > >"[....] global warming is more and more taking on an aspect of >manipulation, which really looks like a 'scientific' deception, and of >which the first victims are the climatologists who receive funding >only when their work goes along with the IPCC." > >"A number of global warming skeptics [....] assert that grant money is >given preferentially to supporters of global warming theory." > >"But there is a more sinister side to this feeding frenzy. Scientists >who dissent from the alarmism have seen their grant funds disappear, >their work derided, and themselves libeled as industry stooges, >scientific hacks or worse. Consequently, lies about climate change >gain credence even when they fly in the face of the science that >supposedly is their basis." > >For sources of these quotes, and 'the other side of the argument', see: >http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Climate_change_skeptics >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy > >Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16598|16494|2008-02-18 14:00:41|Paul Wilson|Re: Diesel smell|Excellent, Darren. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Darren Bos To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:14:21 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Warning, this is yet another long message on climate change, if you are tired of them just hit delete. Colin The Wikipedia page appears to provide a fairly balanced view of the scientific process, including the IPCC. The part that I think gets overlooked, especially in the general news, is that equal time if given to both sides of the debate. The number of studies that are consistent with anthropogenic climate warming greatly outweigh those that don't and the number of scientists that support the view that climate change is human caused greatly outweighs those that don't. However, the media still gives equal weight to both sides. Climate is complex so it would be unexpected for the data to be entirely consistent. Individuals have their own agendas so it is not surprising you don't get complete agreement. However, even reading through the Wikipedia site you can see that there is very broad agreement on warming, broad agreement that the warming is human caused and that most of the disagreement is focused on the details of computer models and exactly how warm things are going to get. You can also see that there is about an equal number of folks criticizing the IPCC for being too conservative as there are criticizing the predictions for being to aggressive. That kind of balance makes me comfortable that the IPCC is probably doing a pretty decent job of a managing a scientifically difficult problem. The argument that scientists funding is dependent on the IPCC and those that don't agree with the IPCC don't get funding just doesn't wash. The majority of the science in the IPCC comes from individual researchers that get the bulk of their funding from agencies within their own countries. In general (I'm not familiar with the programs in all countries) whether or not a proposal is funded is determined by a group of that scientist peers who review the proposal on scientific merit. I think it is worth pointing out that many of the folks who refute human-caused global warming are the ones who are directly making money from creating controversy that really doesn't exist in the larger scientific community. It's funny how history repeats itself. When Acid Rain first became an issue there was a large increase in research, uncertainties became resolved and things moved toward scientific consensus. However, there was industry funded science that received equal exposure in the press and generated a lot of uncertainty in the general public long after the larger scientific community had reached consensus. Eventually the research refuting acid rain crumpled under the overwhelming research that was consistent with acid rain. It is surprising how long it takes public policy to catch up. However, eventually laws were changed and many of the areas affected by acid rain are on there way to recovery. Unfortunately, climate change will not be as easy to set back as acid rain was. I think about climate change in much the same way as I prepare the boat before I head out. I look at all the available data I can get, go through all the scenarios I can ponder up and then make sure I am prepared for the worst of them. I try a balance preparation with the likelihood of risk. I don't outlay the expense of an EPIRB because I think the risks don't justify the costs given that I travel short distances in the Straight of Georgia. I don't have a liferaft, but I make sure the dinghy is ready to go should I run into the unlikely event of getting holed by a log or other debris. Climate change is the same kind of situation, there are those who advocate extreme actions on both sides, but they are in the minority. What we need to do is start right now to give ourselves as much time as possible to adapt to the changes that are taking place. The sad part is that we haven't even picked the low lying fruit yet. With little effort most homes could significantly reduce their energy consumption with little effort. We could demand that new homes and new cars meet higher levels of efficiency. We could stop building bigger roads to service suburbs an hour out of town and build train service instead (this line will probably read strangely for those in Europe who already have comparatively good train service). Anyway, try reading the IPCC FAQ or report, what do you have to lose? Darren To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity 8New Members Visit Your Group Health Zone Look your best! Groups to help you look & feel great. Yahoo! News Get it all here Breaking news to entertainment news Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more.. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16599|16596|2008-02-18 14:11:11|Paul Wilson|Re: Rigging References|No book says it all, but the best all-round book I found was "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson. Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:01:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Rigging References Hi folks, Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting to think of such things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. Thanks Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16600|16494|2008-02-18 14:29:07|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell|Darren, you wrote: Warning, this is yet another long message on climate change, if you are tired of them just hit delete. My reply is pretty short, but the delete button can still be used :-)) Somebody mentioned that the carbon amount on the planet is constant and over geological times it has been bound in CO2, in coal and oil, in plant matter etc. When we burn fossil fuels, we are returning carbon to the atmosphere where most of it probably came from some long time ago. Anyway, the main question is really whether the evident changes in climate around the globe are directly caused by human activity (in which case we at least theoretically will have the option of changing our activities), or not. If we are causing the changes, it is also a question whether we are alone the cause, or if there are other factors involved. My point is that just about 10,000 years ago Scandinavia was covered by more than 3,000 m of ice cap. As you know, most of that ice cap was gone 4-5000 years ago and I am pretty sure there was no human activity involved that caused this massive change in climate within such a very short time (geologically speaking). There are also other similar examples of major climatic changes where humanity was innocent in being part of the cause of change. Are we getting a bit too self-important in postulating that this time, we are the only cause of the changes being recorded? I do not know, but there are certainly good reasons to try and find out, because if we want to stop or reduce the changes, we need to know for sure what are the actual causes. If there is a natural component to it (not caused by human activity), this component may be marginal or dominating. In the latter case, we may as well start adapting to the unavoidable consequences rather than trying to fight them. If the changes are 100% man-made, we better agree on efficient action NOW, otherwise we will have to prepare for the consequences in any case. Knowing politicians the way I think I do, I am not holding my breath. Better make sure you have a boat and get your house on high ground :-)) Knut No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 5:50 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 5:50 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16601|16494|2008-02-18 15:21:57|Darren Bos|Re: [SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell|Knut, The scientific understanding of the roles of natural and man-made effects have come a long way to being resolved in the last half decade. Much of the debate about natural causes has been laid to rest. None of the natural factors that work well to explain past warming are consistent with the extent of the current warming. The latest IPCC report does a good job of summarizing how much of the current warming is natural and how much is man-made (previous reports had less confidence in this area). The only way you can get a model to predict the changes we have already observed is to account for changes in CO2. Yes, the earth has a fixed amount of carbon. Yes, CO2 levels have been higher in the past. However, human civilization did not develop under those conditions and with the current growth of population we may find it difficult to adapt. This is not about saving the planet, it is about saving the civilization that makes it comfortable for us to live. The reason I bother writing this is that I also don't have faith in the politicians doing much on their own. Until their election is dependent on addressing climate change they are unlikely to act. I also honestly believe that taking action now is going to be a lot cheaper than waiting and then facing a completely overwhelming situation. Click on the link below and scroll down the page to FAQ 2.1 Figure 2. It does a descent job of summarizing the current best estimates of how much change is man made and how much is natural, as you can see CO2 is the biggest part of the picture (also note that black bars that show how much confidence they have in the estimate for each component). If you go down to FAQ 10.3 Figure 1. you can see that by limiting CO2 production we will not reduce CO2 levels in the atmosphere or the global warming they are causing, all we are going to do is hopefully slow down the pace enough to adapt. Adaptation is likely to be much harder than people expect. Some places where we currently grow food have been too hot and dry in previous warm periods. Many places that will be warm and wet enough to grow crops don't actually have soils that are good to grow crops in. The last big bugbear is that we don't really know how fast things are going to change. Long-term records have shown that large changes can happen very quickly switching from one state to another. Most climate models predict more gradual changes. So the models we are using may miss the fact that we are headed for a cliff rather than a steep slope. All that can be done is to first convince yourself, then convince others, then start changing course and hope there is enough sea room to adapt. http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf Darren At 11:22 AM 18/02/2008, you wrote: >Darren, > >you wrote: > >Warning, this is yet another long message on climate change, if you >are tired of them just hit delete. > >My reply is pretty short, but the delete button can still be used :-)) > >Somebody mentioned that the carbon amount on the planet is constant and over >geological times it has been bound in CO2, in coal and oil, in plant matter >etc. When we burn fossil fuels, we are returning carbon to the atmosphere >where most of it probably came from some long time ago. > >Anyway, the main question is really whether the evident changes in climate >around the globe are directly caused by human activity (in which case we at >least theoretically will have the option of changing our activities), or >not. If we are causing the changes, it is also a question whether we are >alone the cause, or if there are other factors involved. > >My point is that just about 10,000 years ago Scandinavia was covered by more >than 3,000 m of ice cap. As you know, most of that ice cap was gone 4-5000 >years ago and I am pretty sure there was no human activity involved that >caused this massive change in climate within such a very short time >(geologically speaking). There are also other similar examples of major >climatic changes where humanity was innocent in being part of the cause of >change. > >Are we getting a bit too self-important in postulating that this time, we >are the only cause of the changes being recorded? I do not know, but there >are certainly good reasons to try and find out, because if we want to stop >or reduce the changes, we need to know for sure what are the actual causes. >If there is a natural component to it (not caused by human activity), this >component may be marginal or dominating. In the latter case, we may as well >start adapting to the unavoidable consequences rather than trying to fight >them. > >If the changes are 100% man-made, we better agree on efficient action NOW, >otherwise we will have to prepare for the consequences in any case. Knowing >politicians the way I think I do, I am not holding my breath. Better make >sure you have a boat and get your house on high ground :-)) > >Knut > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 >5:50 AM > >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 >5:50 AM > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16602|16572|2008-02-18 16:18:57|peter_d_wiley|Re: rust and hull leakage|I got offered a hull in that sort of condition for free. It was still too expensive. My advice, FWIW, is not to touch it. If you're still thinking on it, get a quote on having it moved to wherever you need it to be (assuming you do need to move it). Then check how much *new* steel you can buy for the price, delivered to your work site. You may well find out that even for free, it's too expensive. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Ted, > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tedstone@... > > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > Martin, > > > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. > > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. > > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in untreated > > tanks for a while. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16603|16494|2008-02-18 16:28:01|edward_stoneuk|Diesel smell or repent the end of the world is nigh.|Darren et al, The UK Met Office's Hadley Centre researches climate change. Below is an example of one of their posts. www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/news/maize_drought.html The Hadley Centre develops computer programmes that they then test by inserting historical data and checking the results against known outcomes. Given the shortage of historical data that is not straightforward. As in many things there are no absolutes but probabilities. Regards, Ted| 16604|16494|2008-02-18 16:31:40|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|As a paleolimnologist, you should be able to answer a simple question. Has there been any periods in the past where the earth had a warmer climate than today? Ancillary question, were CO2 levels ever higher in the past than today? Ancillary question, are CO2 levels a leading or lagging indicator of temperature rise? Ancillary question, how much confidence do you put in computer models of poorly understood processes? My qualifications - science degree in geomorphology & zoology, postgrad stats, 2nd postgrad degree in Comp Sci, 30 years work experience in scientific data collection & modelling, designer of 2 of Australia's environmental data repositories. I know enough to have some idea of the limits of my knowledge, and I've worked with the modellers in this area. I recently spent 10 years providing them with data. Please do not quote the IPCC report to me. Quote data, models, assumptions and sources. Global warming *may* be occurring. Human actions *may* be a cause. Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not science. Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property down to the (current) tideline. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > two. For those that have never heard of the IPCC report it is > basically a compilation of scientific data on climate change from > around the world. All published data is considered, academics who > really care about sweating over the details argue back and forth and > when possible come to conclusions. They also provide statements on > the degree of agreement and certainty in the data. Unlike most > sources that refute climate change the IPCC provides references to > back up what they say (you have to read the full report, not just the > FAQ to get the references). So, if something smells fishy you can go > look up the original publication. If that still doesn't sound right > you could even call up the original researcher. Better yet, if he > lives nearby call him up and offer to buy him a pint to discuss his > research. Once he gets over the shock that someone actually cared > about the details of his/her research he is likely to take you up on > your offer and maybe even buy the next round as the discussion goes on. > > Anyway, back to the challenge. I spent nearly a decade in > university, with about half of that in a field (paleolimnology) > closely related to climate change research. Tuition seemed pretty > steep while I was paying for it, but the fact is Canadian tax dollars > also paid for a big chunk of that time. So, here is your chance to > get something back out of those taxes. Read the FAQ, if you can't > make sense of part of it, or if you think part of it just isn't true, > let me know. I'll do my best to provide more information. > > The URL for the FAQ is: > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf > > Cheers, > Darren > > > > At 08:55 PM 17/02/2008, you wrote: > > >People seem to lump the whole "Global Warming" together and package it > >so that really simple solutions can be offered. It seems to me that > >several separate and distinct issues are at play. > > > >1. Is global warming occurring? And if so, what is the extent of it? > >Learned and thoughtful people are debating the data and the > >extrapolated projections. The original source data has been > >revised (to reflect less warming) at least a few times as further > >analysis has uncovered flaws in the data. Now it would > >appear that a large percentage of the temperature > >monitoring stations on which the analysis depended have been found to > >not observe even the most basic tenets of measurement protocol.. > >2. Assuming it can be established that Global Warming is occurring, Can > >we establish that the actions of mankind are the cause? And if > >so to what extent? Exact causation seems to be elusive. We seem to > >me to be basing much of what is reported on statistical > >correlation., which is not the same thing at all. Even if we > >establish a direct link as to cause, How much is mankind contributing > >and how much is a natural process? If we find (an example, not a > >real number) that greenhouse gasses are the culprit and > >that mankind's contribution is only 5% of the total, then, completely > >wiping ourselves off the earth (making sure to use an > >environmentally friendly process!) won't have much impact. > >3. Even if we decide to go ahead and undertake some action to mitigate > >an identified problem. what will the developing countries be doing? > >First and second world countries are already doing a great deal to > >provide themselves with clean air and water. We could do a great > >deal more to reduce our energy consumption and garbage > >production and export. We may however only be in control of a small > >percentage of the problem. (20% of 5% ?) But I think that > >getting the last few percentage points may be quite costly. I'm > >reminded about the theories of population explosion. The net result > >appears to be that thoughtful, intelligent and educated people have > >far fewer children leaving the rest to reproduce with wild > >abandon. The population growth doesn't seem to be slowing a whole lot in > >many places. > >But, the population is demonstrably dumber. Is this what we need? > > > >So, I guess the upshot of all this is > >Use less energy, demand less packaging, don't crap where you eat, and > >don't spend billions or trillions of whatever trying to solve a problem > >that may or may not exist, that you may or may not be in control of to > >any meaningful extent, that your neighbor is for sure going to ignore. > >and that whatever method you use to try to solve is just as likely to > >make worse while introducing entirely new maybe more horrific > >consequences. "just in case they are right" > > > >end of rant > > > >Dale > >Paul Wilson wrote: > > > We can all debate back and forth forever about the different > > theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is > > what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences > > are of our wrong theory. > > > > > > If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end > > up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). > > > > > > If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming > > are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up > > environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round > > disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer to me. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Ben Okopnik <ben@...> > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > >> The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > > >> their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > > >> 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > > >> socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > > >> at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > > >> that once it's adherents started getting into > > >> power. > > >> > > > > > > This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and > > > perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are > > > fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says > > > nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. > > > > > > As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* > > > contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going up by > > > leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's a fact. > > > Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the atmosphere - > > > that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. > > > Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. > > > > > > All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific > > > knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about messianic > > > qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16605|16572|2008-02-18 16:38:00|Wesley Cox|Re: rust and hull leakage|I second this. Although I've never been offered a free boat in this condition, I would run from it. If you can see, feel or in any way detect pin holes, there are many that won't be revealed until you blast the surface. Where there are holes, there are also areas surrounding the holes that are solid metal but thinner than when new. Much or all of the hull is very likely complete junk. A massive rebuild, for me at least, would be highly frustrating versus building from scratch. In the former case, the end result would be a hull of questionable integrity as well, as in how many problem areas *didn't* I fix because I didn't know about them? ----- Original Message ----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage I got offered a hull in that sort of condition for free. It was still too expensive. My advice, FWIW, is not to touch it. If you're still thinking on it, get a quote on having it moved to wherever you need it to be (assuming you do need to move it). Then check how much *new* steel you can buy for the price, delivered to your work site. You may well find out that even for free, it's too expensive. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > Ted, > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: tedstone@... > > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > Martin, > > > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. > > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. > > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in untreated > > tanks for a while. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 5:50 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16606|16494|2008-02-18 16:49:53|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|It would be naive to assume that human activities are not having an effect on the climate given the scale of human activity,but other things do so as well.Scientific effort goes with the flow as much as anything else and if the bulk of the research money is going on projects to prove that human activity is responsible for global warming too bad.Scientists have to earn a crust just like the rest of us.100 dollar oil will probably do more to change peoples behaviour and make green alternatives viable.It's probably hurting more on your side of the pond than on mine because the price of crude oil is a bigger component of the finished product than it is over here thanks to your long standing policy of low taxes on road fuels. Whatever is ultimately resposible for global warming - personally I think that we're piggybacking on the back of a natural sun cycle - it is probably not a good idea to make things worse,although if the Chinese are opening a new coal fired power station every week then anything we as individuals might do isn't going to make a lot of difference.It's the religious dimension that I object to,and if you're stuck,as we are at the moment,with a government which is doing it's best to make the DDR look good,then things are not looking too good.Thank god their best is pretty incompetent cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16607|16494|2008-02-18 17:45:41|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Answers inserted into the text Peter At 01:31 PM 18/02/2008, you wrote: >As a paleolimnologist, you should be able to answer a simple question. > >Has there been any periods in the past where the earth had a warmer >climate than today? Yes >Ancillary question, were CO2 levels ever higher in the past than today? Yes >Ancillary question, are CO2 levels a leading or lagging indicator of >temperature rise? Lagging indicator in previous warmings, that is one of the things that makes this warming anomalous >Ancillary question, how much confidence do you put in computer models >of poorly understood processes? Computer models are one of the weakest links in our understanding. However, folks seem to pick on the differences between the models and ignore that they replicate the broad trends well and that retrospective predictions of paleodata are reasonable. I see it as a case of an imperfect tool, but the best choice we have. >My qualifications - science degree in geomorphology & zoology, >postgrad stats, 2nd postgrad degree in Comp Sci, 30 years work >experience in scientific data collection & modelling, designer of 2 of >Australia's environmental data repositories. > >I know enough to have some idea of the limits of my knowledge, and >I've worked with the modellers in this area. I recently spent 10 years >providing them with data. Please do not quote the IPCC report to me. >Quote data, models, assumptions and sources. The IPCC report is not perfect, summarizing that much data has its pitfalls. I do think the IPCC report is the best spot for one-stop shopping and it is an uphill battle to get folks just to look at the FAQ of the report. The full report does contain references right down to "data, models, assumptions and sources" it is all there for anyone who wants to check it. I admit that getting the raw data is not always possible, although even that aspect is improving. >Global warming *may* be occurring. > >Human actions *may* be a cause. > >Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not >science. As far as science goes, it is not a matter or True or False. Human mitigated climate change is the hypothesis that is best supported by the data. You don't prove anything in science you disprove things. The data just don't support that this climate change is a natural event as past ones have been. Certainty isn't required. I'm willing to act on the most probable outcome, just as I duck when a baseball is flying at my head. It's worth remembering that choosing not to do anything is also a form of action and also has consequences. >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would >give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property >down to the (current) tideline. > >PDW > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are > > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it > > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time > > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > > two. For those that have never heard of the IPCC report it is > > basically a compilation of scientific data on climate change from > > around the world. All published data is considered, academics who > > really care about sweating over the details argue back and forth and > > when possible come to conclusions. They also provide statements on > > the degree of agreement and certainty in the data. Unlike most > > sources that refute climate change the IPCC provides references to > > back up what they say (you have to read the full report, not just the > > FAQ to get the references). So, if something smells fishy you can go > > look up the original publication. If that still doesn't sound right > > you could even call up the original researcher. Better yet, if he > > lives nearby call him up and offer to buy him a pint to discuss his > > research. Once he gets over the shock that someone actually cared > > about the details of his/her research he is likely to take you up on > > your offer and maybe even buy the next round as the discussion goes on. > > > > Anyway, back to the challenge. I spent nearly a decade in > > university, with about half of that in a field (paleolimnology) > > closely related to climate change research. Tuition seemed pretty > > steep while I was paying for it, but the fact is Canadian tax dollars > > also paid for a big chunk of that time. So, here is your chance to > > get something back out of those taxes. Read the FAQ, if you can't > > make sense of part of it, or if you think part of it just isn't true, > > let me know. I'll do my best to provide more information. > > > > The URL for the FAQ is: > > > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf > > > > Cheers, > > Darren > > > > > > > > At 08:55 PM 17/02/2008, you wrote: > > > > >People seem to lump the whole "Global Warming" together and package it > > >so that really simple solutions can be offered. It seems to me that > > >several separate and distinct issues are at play. > > > > > >1. Is global warming occurring? And if so, what is the extent of it? > > >Learned and thoughtful people are debating the data and the > > >extrapolated projections. The original source data has been > > >revised (to reflect less warming) at least a few times as further > > >analysis has uncovered flaws in the data. Now it would > > >appear that a large percentage of the temperature > > >monitoring stations on which the analysis depended have been found to > > >not observe even the most basic tenets of measurement protocol.. > > >2. Assuming it can be established that Global Warming is occurring, Can > > >we establish that the actions of mankind are the cause? And if > > >so to what extent? Exact causation seems to be elusive. We seem to > > >me to be basing much of what is reported on statistical > > >correlation., which is not the same thing at all. Even if we > > >establish a direct link as to cause, How much is mankind contributing > > >and how much is a natural process? If we find (an example, not a > > >real number) that greenhouse gasses are the culprit and > > >that mankind's contribution is only 5% of the total, then, completely > > >wiping ourselves off the earth (making sure to use an > > >environmentally friendly process!) won't have much impact. > > >3. Even if we decide to go ahead and undertake some action to mitigate > > >an identified problem. what will the developing countries be doing? > > >First and second world countries are already doing a great deal to > > >provide themselves with clean air and water. We could do a great > > >deal more to reduce our energy consumption and garbage > > >production and export. We may however only be in control of a small > > >percentage of the problem. (20% of 5% ?) But I think that > > >getting the last few percentage points may be quite costly. I'm > > >reminded about the theories of population explosion. The net result > > >appears to be that thoughtful, intelligent and educated people have > > >far fewer children leaving the rest to reproduce with wild > > >abandon. The population growth doesn't seem to be slowing a whole >lot in > > >many places. > > >But, the population is demonstrably dumber. Is this what we need? > > > > > >So, I guess the upshot of all this is > > >Use less energy, demand less packaging, don't crap where you eat, and > > >don't spend billions or trillions of whatever trying to solve a problem > > >that may or may not exist, that you may or may not be in control of to > > >any meaningful extent, that your neighbor is for sure going to ignore. > > >and that whatever method you use to try to solve is just as likely to > > >make worse while introducing entirely new maybe more horrific > > >consequences. "just in case they are right" > > > > > >end of rant > > > > > >Dale > > >Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > We can all debate back and forth forever about the different > > > theories on global warming. I think what we have to think about is > > > what if whatever theory we have is wrong and what the consequences > > > are of our wrong theory. > > > > > > > > If the greenies are wrong but you do what they say to do, you end > > > up with a cleaner earth but maybe a poorer economy (so some say). > > > > > > > > If the people who say there is no such thing as global warming > > > are wrong and we don't change our ways, we end up with a screwed up > > > environment, famine, ruined economy and general all-round > > > disaster........not to mention wet feet. Seems like a no brainer >to me. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Ben Okopnik <ben@...> > > > > To: >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 9:17:49 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42:51PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > > > >> The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > > > >> their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > > > >> 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > > > >> socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > > > >> at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > > > >> that once it's adherents started getting into > > > >> power. > > > >> > > > > > > > > This is like arguing that because, e.g., Pol Pot breathed air and > > > > perpetrated various horrors, we should all stop breathing. There are > > > > fanatics on every side of every important question - but that says > > > > nothing about whether the question itself is reasonable or not. > > > > > > > > As someone here pointed out, population (which is only *one* > > > > contributing factor in the environmental mess we're in) is going >up by > > > > leaps and bounds, while the oil supply remains constant - that's >a fact. > > > > Burning oil dumps billions of tons of pollutants into the >atmosphere - > > > > that's a fact. Us human beings need to breathe - that's a fact. > > > > Pollutants in our air poison us - that's a fact. > > > > > > > > All of the above are solid facts that take little to no scientific > > > > knowledge to understand. Emotionally- loaded arguments about >messianic > > > > qualities, etc. don't change that in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16608|16572|2008-02-18 18:16:28|brentswain38|Re: rust and hull leakage|You can probably get enough goodies off a free boat to rig and outfit another one. Hulls are simple to build.You can get a bit for the scrap , too. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > I second this. Although I've never been offered a free boat in this condition, I would run from it. If you can see, feel or in any way detect pin holes, there are many that won't be revealed until you blast the surface. Where there are holes, there are also areas surrounding the holes that are solid metal but thinner than when new. Much or all of the hull is very likely complete junk. A massive rebuild, for me at least, would be highly frustrating versus building from scratch. In the former case, the end result would be a hull of questionable integrity as well, as in how many problem areas *didn't* I fix because I didn't know about them? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: peter_d_wiley > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:18 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > I got offered a hull in that sort of condition for free. It was still > too expensive. My advice, FWIW, is not to touch it. If you're still > thinking on it, get a quote on having it moved to wherever you need it > to be (assuming you do need to move it). Then check how much *new* > steel you can buy for the price, delivered to your work site. You may > well find out that even for free, it's too expensive. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ted, > > > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and > snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, > it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good > hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > > > Martin > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: tedstone@ > > > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole damage. > > > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of buying it. > > > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in > untreated > > > tanks for a while. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 5:50 AM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16609|16494|2008-02-18 18:17:59|put_to_sea|Re: Diesel smell|I must say, this has been a very good reasoned discussion instead of deteriorating into a flame war. It is nice to have such thoughtful people on board. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Answers inserted into the text Peter > > At 01:31 PM 18/02/2008, you wrote: > > >As a paleolimnologist, you should be able to answer a simple question. > > > >Has there been any periods in the past where the earth had a warmer > >climate than today? > > Yes > > > >Ancillary question, were CO2 levels ever higher in the past than today? > > Yes > > >Ancillary question, are CO2 levels a leading or lagging indicator of > >temperature rise? > > Lagging indicator in previous warmings, that is one of the things > that makes this warming anomalous > > > >Ancillary question, how much confidence do you put in computer models > >of poorly understood processes? > > Computer models are one of the weakest links in our > understanding. However, folks seem to pick on the differences > between the models and ignore that they replicate the broad trends > well and that retrospective predictions of paleodata are > reasonable. I see it as a case of an imperfect tool, but the best > choice we have. > > > >My qualifications - science degree in geomorphology & zoology, > >postgrad stats, 2nd postgrad degree in Comp Sci, 30 years work > >experience in scientific data collection & modelling, designer of 2 of > >Australia's environmental data repositories. > > > >I know enough to have some idea of the limits of my knowledge, and > >I've worked with the modellers in this area. I recently spent 10 years > >providing them with data. Please do not quote the IPCC report to me. > >Quote data, models, assumptions and sources. > > The IPCC report is not perfect, summarizing that much data has its > pitfalls. I do think the IPCC report is the best spot for one-stop > shopping and it is an uphill battle to get folks just to look at the > FAQ of the report. The full report does contain references right > down to "data, models, assumptions and sources" it is all there for > anyone who wants to check it. I admit that getting the raw data is > not always possible, although even that aspect is improving. > > >Global warming *may* be occurring. > > > >Human actions *may* be a cause. > > > >Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not > >science. > > As far as science goes, it is not a matter or True or False. Human > mitigated climate change is the hypothesis that is best supported by > the data. You don't prove anything in science you disprove > things. The data just don't support that this climate change is a > natural event as past ones have been. Certainty isn't required. I'm > willing to act on the most probable outcome, just as I duck when a > baseball is flying at my head. It's worth remembering that choosing > not to do anything is also a form of action and also has consequences. > > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > >give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > >down to the (current) tideline. > > > >PDW | 16610|16494|2008-02-18 18:19:48|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Whe I used 1 amp bulbs I used 1/10,000th the electrical energy of the average house. Now I use 80 milliamp bulbs. The average house uses 350 gallons of water a day. I use one gallona day. The list goes on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Well said Brent. I've often thought that if everyone had to spend a > year aboard a small boat and survive the change in perspective would > go a long way to solving our current dilemma. Most folks on land > don't even grasp that running the water from their tap is a form of > energy use. Most folks on a sailboat can't fathom leaving a tap running. > > Darren > > At 02:04 PM 17/02/2008, you wrote: > > >Some are messianics ,while living in grossly oversized homes ,who, > >after filling their recycling boxes, then driving their SUV's or > >motorhomes to the polls to vote for the green party, then drive their > >motorhomes to the airport to fly halfway around the world.Move aboard > >a cruising boat and go everywhere you can under sail and your > >environmental impact drops to a tiny fraction of what it would have been. > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > >ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > > The thing that worries me about environmentalists is > > > their messianic quality.It's the new religion.The > > > 'green' movement now is at about the same stage as > > > socialism/communism was a hundred years ago and look > > > at the horrors which were perpetrated in the name of > > > that once it's adherents started getting into > > > power.The climate may well be warming up but it does > > > that periodically anyway,depending on how the sun is > > > behaving - noone has yet explained to me what caused > > > the rising sea levels in the middle ages which formed > > > the Norfolk Broads in the UK and the Zuider Zee in > > > Holland(You could grow grapes as far north as > > > Newcastle as well).If the price of oil stays near it's > > > present level that will probably do more to ensure the > > > development of alternative forms of energy than than > > > any pious platitudes from the greens could. > > > cheers > > > Andy Airey > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16611|16596|2008-02-18 18:21:20|brentswain38|Re: Rigging References|Read the part on Rigging in my book Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting to think of such > things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. > > Thanks > > Paul > | 16612|16494|2008-02-18 19:56:09|Gary Prebble|Re: Diesel smell|>Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > down to the (current) tideline. So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's migration to higher ground or a refuge camp.| 16613|16494|2008-02-18 20:06:27|Gary Prebble|Re: Diesel smell|Re-reading my last post sounds like sarcasm (apologies) but not at all intended that way as this has been an extraordinary exchange of the two points of view by Darren & Peter... Thanks Just that my feeling is by not acting we are in effect also acting. I would prefer to err on the side of caution as in staying in port when the weatherman (science) warns of bad weather, realizing that the weatherman is commonly proven wrong afterwards. Regards... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > > down to the (current) tideline. > > > So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's > migration to higher ground or a refuge camp. > | 16614|16494|2008-02-18 20:14:39|Gary Prebble|Re: Diesel smell|Oh yes... last P.S. A bit of humour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NahyfTAVNqk&feature=related --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > Re-reading my last post sounds like sarcasm (apologies) but not at > all intended that way as this has been an extraordinary exchange of > the two points of view by Darren & Peter... Thanks > > Just that my feeling is by not acting we are in effect also acting. > I would prefer to err on the side of caution as in staying in port > when the weatherman (science) warns of bad weather, realizing that > the weatherman is commonly proven wrong afterwards. > > Regards... Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" > wrote: > > > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > > > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > > > down to the (current) tideline. > > > > > > So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's > > migration to higher ground or a refuge camp. > > > | 16615|16615|2008-02-18 20:27:03|kingsknight4life|Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|Hi The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since the materials and time cost is less.Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with occasional guest(s)? Rowland| 16616|16616|2008-02-18 21:31:22|inter4905|longer keel and less draft|Hi, when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the bottom of the boat to have a flater bottom and installing a longer and shallower keel all of that to get less draft? Martin| 16617|16494|2008-02-18 21:39:12|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|I support you 100% Brent but what would the world be like if everyone lived the way you have chosen. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Whe I used 1 amp bulbs I used 1/10,000th the electrical energy of the > average house. Now I use 80 milliamp bulbs. > The average house uses 350 gallons of water a day. I use one gallona > day. The list goes on. > Brent | 16618|16596|2008-02-18 22:04:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Rigging References|Paul, You can try "The Complete Riggers Apprentice" by Brion Toss. I checked it out from the local library by way of an Inter-Library Loan. Good enough that I'm buying a copy for using while rigging out my boat. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com jfpacuas wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting > to think of such > things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. > > Thanks > > Paul > > | 16619|16596|2008-02-18 22:08:30|Carl Anderson|Re: Rigging References|Paul, Henderson's book deals with rigging on tall ships. And really is meant for someone who is building an exact replica model of a tall ship. At least that is what I got from reading that one. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Paul Wilson wrote: > > > No book says it all, but the best all-round book I found was > "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson. > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jfpacuas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:01:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Rigging References > > Hi folks, > > Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting > to think of such > things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. > > Thanks > > Paul > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16620|16616|2008-02-18 22:20:04|Carl Anderson|Re: longer keel and less draft|Martin, Just go with a twin keel boat. 4.5' of draft is fairly shallow. Carl inter4905 wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the > bottom of the boat to > have a flater bottom > and installing a longer and shallower keel > all of that to get less draft? > > Martin > > | 16621|16494|2008-02-18 22:35:53|seeratlas|[SPAM]Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell|As a former physicist, (many many MANY years ago :), my take on all this is very simple, i.e., if the science is correct, predictions can be made and observed. I see no such 'science' being currently demonstrated. Just a few days ago upon waking up to ice here in Florida, one of the older sailors in the marina remarked wryly, "don't know how much more of this 'global warming' I can take". Where did the 'unprecedented hurricane activity' predicted with alarming frequency the last two years go? I, for one, am a bit weary of 'sound bite (byte)' science. Furthermore, as far as I can see, if the geological record of the earth reveals anything about this planet's climate, it is that the climate is now and has always been in a state of 'transition' of one kind or another. I'll freely admit to being a bit skeptical that current conditions result from the activity of something as inconsequential as the human race. I would be far more willing to embrace the idea that climate changes are more directly influenced by the changes in solar activity, and the earth's presentation thereto, effects that apparently exhibit high correlation, and for periods long long long before we even showed up. In any event, if we have a melt, there will be more water to sail, and more seas to explore, and besides, I'm not entirely sure the UN plan to transfer wealth and treasure from the developed nations to the developing nations in the form of 'purchases' of carbon credits is likely to accomplish anything other than providing the leaders of the developing nations more funds to purchase their own personal new yachts to sail. As a curmudgeon of a professor once told me, "political 'science' is the most corrupt 'science' of all..." so, sorry, thanks for the invitation to ride this latest in a long string of political bandwagons, but as the man said, 'include me out'. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Knut, > > The scientific understanding of the roles of natural and man-made > effects have come a long way to being resolved in the last half > decade. Much of the debate about natural causes has been laid to > rest. None of the natural factors that work well to explain past > warming are consistent with the extent of the current warming. The > latest IPCC report does a good job of summarizing how much of the > current warming is natural and how much is man-made (previous reports > had less confidence in this area). The only way you can get a model > to predict the changes we have already observed is to account for > changes in CO2. Yes, the earth has a fixed amount of carbon. Yes, > CO2 levels have been higher in the past. However, human civilization > did not develop under those conditions and with the current growth of > population we may find it difficult to adapt. This is not about > saving the planet, it is about saving the civilization that makes it > comfortable for us to live. The reason I bother writing this is that > I also don't have faith in the politicians doing much on their > own. Until their election is dependent on addressing climate change > they are unlikely to act. I also honestly believe that taking action > now is going to be a lot cheaper than waiting and then facing a > completely overwhelming situation. > > Click on the link below and scroll down the page to FAQ 2.1 Figure > 2. It does a descent job of summarizing the current best estimates > of how much change is man made and how much is natural, as you can > see CO2 is the biggest part of the picture (also note that black bars > that show how much confidence they have in the estimate for each > component). If you go down to FAQ 10.3 Figure 1. you can see that > by limiting CO2 production we will not reduce CO2 levels in the > atmosphere or the global warming they are causing, all we are going > to do is hopefully slow down the pace enough to adapt. Adaptation is > likely to be much harder than people expect. Some places where we > currently grow food have been too hot and dry in previous warm > periods. Many places that will be warm and wet enough to grow crops > don't actually have soils that are good to grow crops in. The last > big bugbear is that we don't really know how fast things are going to > change. Long-term records have shown that large changes can happen > very quickly switching from one state to another. Most climate > models predict more gradual changes. So the models we are using may > miss the fact that we are headed for a cliff rather than a steep > slope. All that can be done is to first convince yourself, then > convince others, then start changing course and hope there is enough > sea room to adapt. > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf > > Darren > > > > At 11:22 AM 18/02/2008, you wrote: > > >Darren, > > > >you wrote: > > > >Warning, this is yet another long message on climate change, if you > >are tired of them just hit delete. > > > >My reply is pretty short, but the delete button can still be used :-)) > > > >Somebody mentioned that the carbon amount on the planet is constant and over > >geological times it has been bound in CO2, in coal and oil, in plant matter > >etc. When we burn fossil fuels, we are returning carbon to the atmosphere > >where most of it probably came from some long time ago. > > > >Anyway, the main question is really whether the evident changes in climate > >around the globe are directly caused by human activity (in which case we at > >least theoretically will have the option of changing our activities), or > >not. If we are causing the changes, it is also a question whether we are > >alone the cause, or if there are other factors involved. > > > >My point is that just about 10,000 years ago Scandinavia was covered by more > >than 3,000 m of ice cap. As you know, most of that ice cap was gone 4-5000 > >years ago and I am pretty sure there was no human activity involved that > >caused this massive change in climate within such a very short time > >(geologically speaking). There are also other similar examples of major > >climatic changes where humanity was innocent in being part of the cause of > >change. > > > >Are we getting a bit too self-important in postulating that this time, we > >are the only cause of the changes being recorded? I do not know, but there > >are certainly good reasons to try and find out, because if we want to stop > >or reduce the changes, we need to know for sure what are the actual causes. > >If there is a natural component to it (not caused by human activity), this > >component may be marginal or dominating. In the latter case, we may as well > >start adapting to the unavoidable consequences rather than trying to fight > >them. > > > >If the changes are 100% man-made, we better agree on efficient action NOW, > >otherwise we will have to prepare for the consequences in any case. Knowing > >politicians the way I think I do, I am not holding my breath. Better make > >sure you have a boat and get your house on high ground :-)) > > > >Knut > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 > >5:50 AM > > > >No virus found in this outgoing message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 > >5:50 AM > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16622|16494|2008-02-18 22:43:05|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Diesel smell|One hell of a lot better I think. But each according to their mores. I like the simple life. I live in a manner similar to Brent's and I hate consumerism even though I have benefited from it. I see no reason at all as to why economies need to continuously expand and I most very definitely see no reason why one nation should consume 1/2 to 2/3 of the worlds resources. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > I support you 100% Brent but what would the world be like if everyone > lived the way you have chosen. > > Jon > | 16623|16494|2008-02-18 22:44:17|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|If you read the actual sciance reports and reviews that where done on them you would find the IPCC final report that was writen before the data was all colected is not science at all but what we in chemistry call "DRYLABBING". The science reports and reviews are still mostly unpublished and may never be in total. The reviewers in large numbers are embareassed by the IPCC system and speaking out. The IPCC will not list all the scientists or reviewrs with there cradentals and reports. That isnot science or what is considered a scientific methed. Any scientist that was involved and didn't agree with the science or conclusion was banned from speeking at Bali. That says a lot to me. Winners of the Nobel Prize as part of the IPCC where not allowed to speek if they disagreed. This is not sciance it is SOCALISM. Googal the Skeptics Guide to Global Warming or check out what the 400 that signed the patition sent to the US congress have to say. Yes it has beem warming in recorded time till 1998 then steady and now cooling with in normal boundries. Man has contributed .001% to that rise or .001% of .07 degrees. It has been warmer and it has been colder. There has been more CO2 and there has been less. All these things are natural before man and now. We don't controle what makes life livable on earth except in Scifi books. When we can controle the sun the earths orbit and the weather then we can controle what makes earth livable. Till then we can only each try to be responsible for how we use the earth and addapt to what we can't change. It cost a lot less then 3 trillion dollars US to addapt. Brfent said it best in his post about recyclers driving SUVs and MHs flying halfway around the world on vication. The carbon footprint of Earth live concert (still unknowen but someone is making money on the Carbon Credits) or no room for all the privet jets at Bali. This is not about the enviroment or the get togathers would be telaconfrenced to save the earth. ALVIN (the chipmunk) Gore pays for carbon credits in a company he was a founder of and gets it back. He gets royalties on a zink mine on his property. He used NW old groth fir to redo his large porch. Never flys coach only privet and rides in limoes to all engagements except green photo ops. I could heat my home with wood and burn my trash and be more earth friendly then him. Gold price is up so I think I will go restore salmon habitat with my gold dredge it always helps remove lead, mercery and heavy metals from the streams makeing them cleaner. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans are > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most it > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my time > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > two. For those that have never heard of the IPCC report it is > basically a compilation of scientific data on climate change from > around the world. All published data is considered, academics who > really care about sweating over the details argue back and forth and > when possible come to conclusions. They also provide statements on > the degree of agreement and certainty in the data. Unlike most > sources that refute climate change the IPCC provides references to > back up what they say (you have to read the full report, not just the > FAQ to get the references). So, if something smells fishy you can go > look up the original publication. If that still doesn't sound right > you could even call up the original researcher. Better yet, if he > lives nearby call him up and offer to buy him a pint to discuss his > research. Once he gets over the shock that someone actually cared > about the details of his/her research he is likely to take you up on > your offer and maybe even buy the next round as the discussion goes on. > > Anyway, back to the challenge. I spent nearly a decade in > university, with about half of that in a field (paleolimnology) > closely related to climate change research. Tuition seemed pretty > steep while I was paying for it, but the fact is Canadian tax dollars > also paid for a big chunk of that time. So, here is your chance to > get something back out of those taxes. Read the FAQ, if you can't > make sense of part of it, or if you think part of it just isn't true, > let me know. I'll do my best to provide more information. > > The URL for the FAQ is: > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf > > Cheers, > Darren | 16624|16616|2008-02-18 22:47:29|Paul J. Thompson|Re: longer keel and less draft|Martin, I live with my wife on a 31 footer. It was very acceptable while I was single. With the two of us, La Chica is a little cramped but as we enjoy a very good relationship we get by. None the less a 36 footer would be better and I am thinking of building one. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor inter4905 wrote: > > Hi, > > when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the bottom of the boat to > have a flater bottom > and installing a longer and shallower keel > all of that to get less draft? > > Martin | 16625|16596|2008-02-19 00:07:48|Paul Wilson|Re: Rigging References|Carl, Are we talking about the same book? I didn't get that at all. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:08:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rigging References Paul, Henderson's book deals with rigging on tall ships. And really is meant for someone who is building an exact replica model of a tall ship. At least that is what I got from reading that one. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab. com Paul Wilson wrote: > > > No book says it all, but the best all-round book I found was > "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson. > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jfpacuas > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:01:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Rigging References > > Hi folks, > > Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting > to think of such > things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. > > Thanks > > Paul > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16626|16615|2008-02-19 00:13:02|Shane Duncan|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|Rowland For what its worth I�m building a 31 Brent swain for myself and my girlfriend go cruising on Over the 36 for exactly the reasons you mentioned, spent a lot of time mulling this over but Mast, sails, engine lead everything is markedly cheaper 5 foot doesn�t sound like much but volume being cubed sail area being squared It adds up pretty quickly Here is a good website of a couple cruising around the tropics on a Brent Swain31 Shes not bad looker either. (the boat) note the differance in beam between the 31 and 36 is only 6 inc http://www.locky.1colony.com/ cheers Shane ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:27:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Hi The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since the materials and time cost is less..Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with occasional guest(s)? Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16627|16615|2008-02-19 00:27:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|Rowland, Personally, I find the 36 small for a couple and would like to have a bigger boat. I am talking about loooong term cruising ie. multiple years. It's amazing how much stuff you accumulate if you are spending a long time in remote areas. You need the space for spares as well as all the fun stuff like diving equipment. Two people have much more stuff than one. If you are only going for a year or so and stopping in civilization once in awhile, you can put up with a lot. I know many couples who have been happy in smaller boats but usually they only cruise a year or two. I know if I had a 30 footer we wouldn't have stayed out cruising for so long....or been divorced by now. I think you would be much happier in the 36, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:27:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Hi The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since the materials and time cost is less.Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with occasional guest(s)? Rowland ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16628|16615|2008-02-19 00:39:32|Paul Wilson|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|Sorry Shane, I can't help myself. You are going to have many different opinions on this but if you look at Locky'ss website and go to his dream yacht design section the boats range from 34 to 60 feet. It makes me think that Locky would like to have a bigger boat :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Shane Duncan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:17:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Rowland For what its worth I¢m building a 31 Brent swain for myself and my girlfriend go cruising on Over the 36 for exactly the reasons you mentioned, spent a lot of time mulling this over but Mast, sails, engine lead everything is markedly cheaper 5 foot doesn¢t sound like much but volume being cubed sail area being squared It adds up pretty quickly Here is a good website of a couple cruising around the tropics on a Brent Swain31 Shes not bad looker either. (the boat) note the differance in beam between the 31 and 36 is only 6 inc http://www.locky.1colony.com/ cheers Shane ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:27:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Hi The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since the materials and time cost is less..Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with occasional guest(s)? Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 16629|16615|2008-02-19 02:01:27|Shane Duncan|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|ha ha ha ha fair enough ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:39:27 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Sorry Shane, I can't help myself. You are going to have many different opinions on this but if you look at Locky'ss website and go to his dream yacht design section the boats range from 34 to 60 feet. It makes me think that Locky would like to have a bigger boat :). Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Shane Duncan To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:17:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Rowland For what its worth I¢m building a 31 Brent swain for myself and my girlfriend go cruising on Over the 36 for exactly the reasons you mentioned, spent a lot of time mulling this over but Mast, sails, engine lead everything is markedly cheaper 5 foot doesn¢t sound like much but volume being cubed sail area being squared It adds up pretty quickly Here is a good website of a couple cruising around the tropics on a Brent Swain31 Shes not bad looker either. (the boat) note the differance in beam between the 31 and 36 is only 6 inc http://www.locky.1colony.com/ cheers Shane ----- Original Message ---- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:27:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? Hi The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since the materials and time cost is less..Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with occasional guest(s)? Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16630|16572|2008-02-19 07:24:30|seeratlas|Re: rust and hull leakage|otoh, there was a guy who bought such a boat off ebay awhile back. 5k got him a 40 plus footer if I remember right, fully rigged, full interior, sails, the whole nine yards,,investigation revealed a total of about six or seven square feet requiring patches. took him 7 weeks to get into the water, he's now out cruising while he refinishes the interior teak and works on some other interior mods and refurbs. Not all that bad of deal. oh, he was the only bidder..has a website up somewhere now. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You can probably get enough goodies off a free boat to rig and outfit > another one. Hulls are simple to build.You can get a bit for the scrap > , too. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > I second this. Although I've never been offered a free boat in this > condition, I would run from it. If you can see, feel or in any way > detect pin holes, there are many that won't be revealed until you > blast the surface. Where there are holes, there are also areas > surrounding the holes that are solid metal but thinner than when new. > Much or all of the hull is very likely complete junk. A massive > rebuild, for me at least, would be highly frustrating versus building > from scratch. In the former case, the end result would be a hull of > questionable integrity as well, as in how many problem areas *didn't* > I fix because I didn't know about them? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: peter_d_wiley > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:18 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > > > I got offered a hull in that sort of condition for free. It was still > > too expensive. My advice, FWIW, is not to touch it. If you're still > > thinking on it, get a quote on having it moved to wherever you need it > > to be (assuming you do need to move it). Then check how much *new* > > steel you can buy for the price, delivered to your work site. You may > > well find out that even for free, it's too expensive. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ted, > > > > > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and > > snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, > > it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > > > > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good > > hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > > > > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > > > > > Martin > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: tedstone@ > > > > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole > damage. > > > > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of > buying it. > > > > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in > > untreated > > > > tanks for a while. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: > 2/18/2008 5:50 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16631|16494|2008-02-19 08:42:20|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > I must say, this has been a very good reasoned discussion instead of > deteriorating into a flame war. It is nice to have such thoughtful > people on board. > I'd like to second that view. In my opinion Origamiboats is the best boating forum to be found anywhere on the net, even if the posts here do frequently stray well off-topic. On another forum I recently made an adverse comment about the UKHO and the safety implications of it's copyright policy in regard of tide tables - the data of which I personally think ought to be made widely available, and free of any copyright restrictions. My post was deleted without warning on the grounds of being 'political'. Strewth. Colin| 16632|16596|2008-02-19 08:57:56|Carl Anderson|Re: Rigging References|Paul, I'm sorry I did confuse that with another book (I've read 6 different books dealing with rigging sailboats since December). I was thinking about "masting and Rigging" by Underhill. Sorry for the confusion on my part. Carl Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Carl, > > Are we talking about the same book? I didn't get that at all. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Carl Anderson > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:08:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Rigging References > > Paul, > > Henderson's book deals with rigging on tall ships. > And really is meant for someone who is building an exact replica model > of a tall ship. > At least that is what I got from reading that one. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab. com > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > > > No book says it all, but the best all-round book I found was > > "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson. > > > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: jfpacuas > > > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com s%40yahoogroups. com> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:01:34 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Rigging References > > > > Hi folks, > > > > Anyone come across a good reference for rigging a new boat? I'm starting > > to think of such > > things for my project, but I am not well-versed in rigging. > > > > Thanks > > > > Paul > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16633|16633|2008-02-19 12:56:21|joeearsley|Inside Steering (Carl?)|Hello Carl, On your picture CD there is a picture of a white and yellow BS36 with a beautiful wood interior and inside wheel steering. Do you know how they incorporated that with the tiller? Alaska joe| 16634|16494|2008-02-19 12:59:19|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Jon, I don't see your point about drylabbing. The technical reports are properly referenced and a quick check revealed most references were published in the primary literature well before the publication of the current IPCC report. As an example, here is a link to the paleo section of the report with its reference section. Are you talking about something other than the scientific technical reports? http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter6.pdf That there is disagreement and reviewers speaking out is not unusual. There are also Nobel Prize winners on both sides of the climate debate that have been outspoken that too much or too little is being done about climate change. The Acid Rain example I gave showed the same kinds of disagreements (well, I'm not aware of any Nobel Laureates involved there). I don't find this unusual in a complex problem where some uncertainties still remain. Talking about warming and cooling over very short period, such as 1998 to present, is like looking at the current dip in the recent dip in the stock market and expecting it to continue forever. It is the long-term trend that matters. It's worth noting that many of the other indicators have not showed a pause recently. Here's a link to one such example. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/104/30/12395.pdf I don't disagree that there is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding popular climate change, but I do like to look at things in a more global extent. Al Gore has burned a lot of fossil fuels jetting around the world, but the useful analysis is whether or not there has been a net decrease in the amount of fuel being burned through his talks altering the behavior of others. Darren At 07:44 PM 18/02/2008, you wrote: >If you read the actual sciance reports and reviews that where done on >them you would find the IPCC final report that was writen before the >data was all colected is not science at all but what we in chemistry >call "DRYLABBING". The science reports and reviews are still mostly >unpublished and may never be in total. The reviewers in large numbers >are embareassed by the IPCC system and speaking out. The IPCC will >not list all the scientists or reviewrs with there cradentals and >reports. That isnot science or what is considered a scientific >methed. Any scientist that was involved and didn't agree with the >science or conclusion was banned from speeking at Bali. That says a >lot to me. Winners of the Nobel Prize as part of the IPCC where not >allowed to speek if they disagreed. This is not sciance it is >SOCALISM. Googal the Skeptics Guide to Global Warming or check out >what the 400 that signed the patition sent to the US congress have to >say. Yes it has beem warming in recorded time till 1998 then steady >and now cooling with in normal boundries. Man has contributed .001% >to that rise or .001% of .07 degrees. It has been warmer and it has >been colder. There has been more CO2 and there has been less. All >these things are natural before man and now. We don't controle what >makes life livable on earth except in Scifi books. When we can >controle the sun the earths orbit and the weather then we can >controle what makes earth livable. Till then we can only each try to >be responsible for how we use the earth and addapt to what we can't >change. It cost a lot less then 3 trillion dollars US to addapt. >Brfent said it best in his post about recyclers driving SUVs and MHs >flying halfway around the world on vication. The carbon footprint of >Earth live concert (still unknowen but someone is making money on the >Carbon Credits) or no room for all the privet jets at Bali. This is >not about the enviroment or the get togathers would be telaconfrenced >to save the earth. ALVIN (the chipmunk) Gore pays for carbon credits >in a company he was a founder of and gets it back. He gets royalties >on a zink mine on his property. He used NW old groth fir to redo his >large porch. Never flys coach only privet and rides in limoes to all >engagements except green photo ops. I could heat my home with wood >and burn my trash and be more earth friendly then him. Gold price is >up so I think I will go restore salmon habitat with my gold dredge it >always helps remove lead, mercery and heavy metals from the streams >makeing them cleaner. > >Jon > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I have a friendly challenge to all the folks who are having a hard > > time believing in global warming (climate change) or that humans >are > > largely responsible for the recent changes we have seen. At most >it > > will cost you a couple of beer (which you get to consume) and an > > evening of your time. In compensation, I'm willing to offer my >time > > to help clarify uncertainties as best I can. > > > > The challenge is to read the FAQ section of the International Panel > > on Climate Change (IPCC) one evening while enjoying a pint or > > two. For those that have never heard of the IPCC report it is > > basically a compilation of scientific data on climate change from > > around the world. All published data is considered, academics who > > really care about sweating over the details argue back and forth >and > > when possible come to conclusions. They also provide statements on > > the degree of agreement and certainty in the data. Unlike most > > sources that refute climate change the IPCC provides references to > > back up what they say (you have to read the full report, not just >the > > FAQ to get the references). So, if something smells fishy you can >go > > look up the original publication. If that still doesn't sound >right > > you could even call up the original researcher. Better yet, if he > > lives nearby call him up and offer to buy him a pint to discuss his > > research. Once he gets over the shock that someone actually cared > > about the details of his/her research he is likely to take you up >on > > your offer and maybe even buy the next round as the discussion goes >on. > > > > Anyway, back to the challenge. I spent nearly a decade in > > university, with about half of that in a field (paleolimnology) > > closely related to climate change research. Tuition seemed pretty > > steep while I was paying for it, but the fact is Canadian tax >dollars > > also paid for a big chunk of that time. So, here is your chance to > > get something back out of those taxes. Read the FAQ, if you can't > > make sense of part of it, or if you think part of it just isn't >true, > > let me know. I'll do my best to provide more information. > > > > The URL for the FAQ is: > > > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf > > > > Cheers, > > Darren > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16635|16633|2008-02-19 14:54:27|Carl Anderson|Re: Inside Steering (Carl?)|Joe, That is Scott & Fredie's boat IDEFIX IV. I am assuming that it is like the wheel steering that Winston has on DOVE IV. It is just a drum & cable arrangement through pulleys leading to the tiller arm. I am using Brent's trim tab style inside steering on Moonflower. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com joeearsley wrote: > > > Hello Carl, On your picture CD there is a picture of a white and > yellow BS36 with a beautiful wood interior and inside wheel steering. > Do you know how they incorporated that with the tiller? > > Alaska joe > > | 16636|16494|2008-02-19 15:36:57|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|Hi Brent You've missed your vocation.With a talent for statistical manipulation like that the British Government will pay you a fortune since they put out dodgy statistics on alternate days and twice on fridays - friday being poets day so they think that people will be less likely to notice.The saving grace of democracy being that there is usually someone around with a political axe to grind who will try to not let them get away with it.Am open to correction but an average of 350 gallons is probably obtained by adding up the total industrial,commercial and individual water use of the nation,probably throwing in agricultural and hydropower use as well,and dividing by the number of inhabitants,of which you,possibly sporadically,are one.If the average citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for the boat would be included in the 341gallons somewhere. Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a straight line from an improbable assumption to an impossible conclusion All good fun Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16637|16494|2008-02-19 15:45:36|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|The building of a steel boat is a one shot deal , which will reduce ones personal environmental foot print to a tiny fraction of what it would have been without the boat, for the life of the boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi Brent > > You've missed your vocation.With a talent for > statistical manipulation like that the British > Government will pay you a fortune since they put out > dodgy statistics on alternate days and twice on > fridays - friday being poets day so they think that > people will be less likely to notice.The saving grace > of democracy being that there is usually someone > around with a political axe to grind who will try to > not let them get away with it.Am open to correction > but an average of 350 gallons is probably obtained by > adding up the total industrial,commercial and > individual water use of the nation,probably throwing > in agricultural and hydropower use as well,and > dividing by the number of inhabitants,of which > you,possibly sporadically,are one.If the average > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > somewhere. > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > impossible conclusion > All good fun > Andy Airey > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > | 16638|16633|2008-02-19 15:47:17|brentswain38|Re: Inside Steering (Carl?)|I started out with drum and cable. Going from that to trimtab steering was like going from the stone age to the space age. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Joe, > > That is Scott & Fredie's boat IDEFIX IV. > I am assuming that it is like the wheel steering that Winston has on > DOVE IV. > It is just a drum & cable arrangement through pulleys leading to the > tiller arm. > I am using Brent's trim tab style inside steering on Moonflower. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > joeearsley wrote: > > > > > > Hello Carl, On your picture CD there is a picture of a white and > > yellow BS36 with a beautiful wood interior and inside wheel steering. > > Do you know how they incorporated that with the tiller? > > > > Alaska joe > > > > > | 16639|16494|2008-02-19 15:47:52|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Diesel smell|Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than 10 gallons. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Hi Brent > If the average > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > somewhere. > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > impossible conclusion > All good fun > Andy Airey > | 16640|16494|2008-02-19 15:50:58|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|People who live on atols, a few feet above sea level, need deeper water like a chicken needs Colonel Saunders.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > > down to the (current) tideline. > > > So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's > migration to higher ground or a refuge camp. > | 16641|16615|2008-02-19 15:54:12|brentswain38|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|All the detail materials and time are roughly the same for a 31 as for a 36. The difference in cost is not all that great, but when you get too old to cruise, a 36 footer sells for three or four times as much as a 31, and sells much quicker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi > The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since > the materials and time cost is less.Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat > more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with > occasional guest(s)? > Rowland > | 16642|16494|2008-02-19 15:57:18|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|What would happen if 100% of the world population lived the same as you; same career, same address, same car in the same driveway,sleeping in the same bed, etc , etc ? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > I support you 100% Brent but what would the world be like if everyone > lived the way you have chosen. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Whe I used 1 amp bulbs I used 1/10,000th the electrical energy of the > > average house. Now I use 80 milliamp bulbs. > > The average house uses 350 gallons of water a day. I use one gallona > > day. The list goes on. > > Brent > What would ahpen if 100% of the polpulkation lived at exactly| 16643|16494|2008-02-19 16:00:25|brentswain38|Re: Diesel smell|Everything we do is affected by political decisions , especially when we sail to many different countries. Political discussions are thus by their very nature cruising discussions, especialy when it comes to weather affected by climate change. Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > > > I must say, this has been a very good reasoned discussion instead of > > deteriorating into a flame war. It is nice to have such thoughtful > > people on board. > > > > I'd like to second that view. In my opinion Origamiboats is the best > boating forum to be found anywhere on the net, even if the posts here > do frequently stray well off-topic. > > On another forum I recently made an adverse comment about the UKHO and > the safety implications of it's copyright policy in regard of tide > tables - the data of which I personally think ought to be made widely > available, and free of any copyright restrictions. > > My post was deleted without warning on the grounds of being 'political'. > Strewth. > Colin > | 16644|16616|2008-02-19 16:02:14|brentswain38|Re: longer keel and less draft|You'd save very little in draft and make the building process another long learning curve. Twin keels are the best way to reduce draft. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > > > Hi, > > when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the bottom of the boat to > have a flater bottom > and installing a longer and shallower keel > all of that to get less draft? > > Martin > | 16645|16494|2008-02-19 16:37:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|Yeah, well, Brent, maybe you should do a bit of research into geological history. Sea levels have been both higher and lower in the past and undoubtedly will be again in the future. It doesn't matter one tiny tinker's cuss *what* people like or dislike, a significant climate change will happen regardless. The timing is unknown, but the event is certain. That's the point you guys all miss. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STEADY-STATE CLIMATE OVER THE LONG TERM. Get OVER it. Emphasis intended. If sea levels rise fast enough to be a problem, I expect we'll take a lot of the Pacific islanders in. France can take a lot more, after all they claim to own the islands. Saying that people 'need' something like a hole in the head is totally irrelevant. We likely didn't need the last mini ice age either, it killed off the European settlements on Greenland quite nicely. The megafauna of the American continent probably didn't need the ice age either before that either. OTOH the drop in sea levels caused a number of land bridges to form, allowing access by humans to new territories, and thereby expand their population base. Do you think it actually makes any difference what people need or don't, when it comes to climate change? Sometimes you guys remind me of the joke about the ant having sex with the elephant. The ant might think it's a significant event, but the elephant doesn't notice. I don't like the pollution from burning fossil fuels etc any better than you, probably, but I'm not anywhere near as hypocritical about it. You live off the fringes & leavings of 21C technology and sneer at the process. I'm part of the process. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > People who live on atols, a few feet above sea level, need deeper > water like a chicken needs Colonel Saunders.. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" > wrote: > > > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > > > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > > > down to the (current) tideline. > > > > > > So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's > > migration to higher ground or a refuge camp. > > > | 16646|16494|2008-02-19 16:40:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel smell Florida|Hi Seer, Maybe thirty years ago I read in the National Geographic an article on Florida. The bit I remember was that Southeast florida sits on a lens of freshwater surrounded by saltwater. The water for Miami came from bores in this aquifer and due to pumping at greater than replenishment rates there was saltwater ingress and some of the wells had to be replaced by others further inland. I guess that if the sea rises this contamination will get worse but then Miami Beach and a fair part of Dade County will be underwater. You will probably have some new neighbours to talk to Seer. The same in the Pacific, as Brent says, many Pacific Island States will cease to exist and their folks will have to move to Australia and New Zealand. Regards, Ted| 16647|16494|2008-02-19 16:44:47|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|Riiiight. Get back to me when you've built your own steel mill, transported your own ore to it, which you mined yourself, built your own rolling mill, manufactured your own electrodes for your personally built welder, powered by the hydroelectricity plant which you also personally constructed. Then we get into the petrochemicals which form your sails and all the other bits of plastic in anything modern. Solar cells? Take a look at the technology needed to build those. If any ONE of those things is missing, your ability to build a steel boat is - nil. In short, what you're saying is that you can freeload off of technological society without cost and without acknowledging those costs as part of your footprint. That's pure hypocrisy. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The building of a steel boat is a one shot deal , which will reduce > ones personal environmental foot print to a tiny fraction of what it > would have been without the boat, for the life of the boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > Hi Brent > > > > You've missed your vocation.With a talent for > > statistical manipulation like that the British > > Government will pay you a fortune since they put out > > dodgy statistics on alternate days and twice on > > fridays - friday being poets day so they think that > > people will be less likely to notice.The saving grace > > of democracy being that there is usually someone > > around with a political axe to grind who will try to > > not let them get away with it.Am open to correction > > but an average of 350 gallons is probably obtained by > > adding up the total industrial,commercial and > > individual water use of the nation,probably throwing > > in agricultural and hydropower use as well,and > > dividing by the number of inhabitants,of which > > you,possibly sporadically,are one.If the average > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > somewhere. > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > impossible conclusion > > All good fun > > Andy Airey > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > | 16648|16494|2008-02-19 16:51:39|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|I agree with you. I live on 3.5 acres of land, in a small house I personally built, using a lot of recycled materials. I supply my own water from my roof into a tank. I dispose of my own effluent. I grow fruit trees and have a vegetable garden. I do buy power from the grid. I have no TV, no electronic toys except a laptop computer, but do have a lot of books. I have a very comprehensive machine shop and woodworking shop, with almost no new tools except the powered hand tools. One of my lathes is nearly 90 years old, and still works fine. However, I still need the technology that makes it possible. I just choose what to use and ignore most of the ephemera that passes for consumer culture. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > One hell of a lot better I think. But each according to their mores. I > like the simple life. I live in a manner similar to Brent's and I hate > consumerism even though I have benefited from it. I see no reason at all > as to why economies need to continuously expand and I most very > definitely see no reason why one nation should consume 1/2 to 2/3 of the > worlds resources. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > I support you 100% Brent but what would the world be like if everyone > > lived the way you have chosen. > > > > Jon > > > | 16649|16494|2008-02-19 16:53:04|polaris041|Re: Diesel smell|Spot on Peter later pol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > Riiiight. > > Get back to me when you've built your own steel mill, transported your > own ore to it, which you mined yourself, built your own rolling mill, > manufactured your own electrodes for your personally built welder, > powered by the hydroelectricity plant which you also personally > constructed. Then we get into the petrochemicals which form your sails > and all the other bits of plastic in anything modern. Solar cells? > Take a look at the technology needed to build those. > > If any ONE of those things is missing, your ability to build a steel > boat is - nil. > > In short, what you're saying is that you can freeload off of > technological society without cost and without acknowledging those > costs as part of your footprint. > > That's pure hypocrisy. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > The building of a steel boat is a one shot deal , which will reduce > > ones personal environmental foot print to a tiny fraction of what it > > would have been without the boat, for the life of the boat. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent > > > > > > You've missed your vocation.With a talent for > > > statistical manipulation like that the British > > > Government will pay you a fortune since they put out > > > dodgy statistics on alternate days and twice on > > > fridays - friday being poets day so they think that > > > people will be less likely to notice.The saving grace > > > of democracy being that there is usually someone > > > around with a political axe to grind who will try to > > > not let them get away with it.Am open to correction > > > but an average of 350 gallons is probably obtained by > > > adding up the total industrial,commercial and > > > individual water use of the nation,probably throwing > > > in agricultural and hydropower use as well,and > > > dividing by the number of inhabitants,of which > > > you,possibly sporadically,are one.If the average > > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > > somewhere. > > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > > impossible conclusion > > > All good fun > > > Andy Airey > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > | 16650|16494|2008-02-19 17:08:57|peter_d_wiley|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Prebble" wrote: > > >Personally I'm all for it. A sea level rise of 1 to 2 metres would > > give me a deep water berth for my boat at the slope of my property > > down to the (current) tideline. > > > So we could conclude that one man's deep water berth is another's > migration to higher ground or a refuge camp. Sure. When has it ever been any different in history? I live in Tasmania at the moment. The original population got here by crossing a land bridge from the mainland to the north, during an ice age. The mainland population seem to be genetically different from the local people, indicating that there was at least one other wave of arrivals, probably during another ice age. Human fossil history goes back at least 40K years. The Derwent estuary is a ria (flooded river valley). Guess how it got flooded? Rising sea levels. Sydney Harbour is another one. So is Broken Bay. Etc. My point is, what you see as a sea level now is at a single point in time. The sea level has ALWAYS changed over geological time. If you take a long enough time scale, people who think they can stabilise it at its given point are behaving exactly like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in. It's bullshit. It's a waste of time & energy. It's hubris. Concentrate on solvable issues. Now, having said that, do not assume that I think trashing good land to dig up fossil fuels to burn for power etc is a good thing to do, nor that we should keep on doing it. I simply do not conflate 2 separate issues into one. Nor am I going to give up a 21C technology level and return to, for example 18C medicine. Nor is anyone else in the world, if it's put in those terms. Those who are living a 18C lifestyle in the 21C are desperately trying to get OUT of it. We need a way of having our tech AND minimising its undesirable side effects. PDW| 16651|16494|2008-02-19 17:09:27|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell|Average per capita water use in Canada is 1158 US gallons per day (OECD 1999 data), this includes industrial use etc. Average domestic water use in Canada is a bit under 100 US gallons per day, unless you have a child in diapers! So Brent is actually using 1% of the average Canadian domestic use per day compared to the 0.29% he thought he was. I'm not sure where you live Andy, but maybe the reason your estimate was off is that you don't live in North America. It is amazing how much domestic water we use here. For comparison, Brits use about 40 US gallons per day domestic. Darren At 12:36 PM 19/02/2008, you wrote: >Hi Brent > >You've missed your vocation.With a talent for >statistical manipulation like that the British >Government will pay you a fortune since they put out >dodgy statistics on alternate days and twice on >fridays - friday being poets day so they think that >people will be less likely to notice.The saving grace >of democracy being that there is usually someone >around with a political axe to grind who will try to >not let them get away with it.Am open to correction >but an average of 350 gallons is probably obtained by >adding up the total industrial,commercial and >individual water use of the nation,probably throwing >in agricultural and hydropower use as well,and >dividing by the number of inhabitants,of which >you,possibly sporadically,are one.If the average >citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that >makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 >gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make >a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for >the boat would be included in the 341gallons >somewhere. >Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a >straight line from an improbable assumption to an >impossible conclusion >All good fun >Andy Airey > >Send instant messages to your online friends >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16652|16494|2008-02-19 17:13:21|Michael Casling|Re: Diesel smell|No question that there are a lot of other inputs that go towards building a boat. However I agree with your point that if you build one of any item and it lasts a long time, then the total resources required are reduced. I own a 1941 Ford tractor, it is already build, I do not need a new one. Same thing with my boat and truck. Your water consumption figure I think was off a bit. As I recall it is 35 not 350 gallons per day for the average person. This figure does not include commercial use. On the farm we run more than one five gallon per minute sprinkler 24 hours per day, and we are a small user. 96% of the water in our rural area goes on the ground. I will be collecting rain water after the move to Gabriola. It is going to be a mjor battle to get the folks in North America to reduce their disproporcionate use of resources. Their denial of global warming is a way to convince themselves to continue as before. Why it is acceptable to ignore all the new inputs from vehicles, coal plants and others, and compare that to the early earth when those issues were not around, escapes me. You lock yourself in a garage with a car and you die. You increase the size of the experiment, same result. In case anyone wonders, I am a grower of food, I walk to the Yacht Club and my office. I try and use resources sparingly. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The building of a steel boat is a one shot deal , which will reduce > ones personal environmental foot print to a tiny fraction of what it > would have been without the boat, for the life of the boat. > Brent | 16653|16572|2008-02-19 17:15:18|peter_d_wiley|Re: rust and hull leakage|If it was a complete boat I'd agree with you. I got offered a rusty bare hull and turned it down. The rust had got to the point where sheets of it were exfoliating off the plate. I keep looking for ferrocement boats to strip for parts, on the same logic. Send the hull to the local tip. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > You can probably get enough goodies off a free boat to rig and outfit > another one. Hulls are simple to build.You can get a bit for the scrap > , too. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > I second this. Although I've never been offered a free boat in this > condition, I would run from it. If you can see, feel or in any way > detect pin holes, there are many that won't be revealed until you > blast the surface. Where there are holes, there are also areas > surrounding the holes that are solid metal but thinner than when new. > Much or all of the hull is very likely complete junk. A massive > rebuild, for me at least, would be highly frustrating versus building > from scratch. In the former case, the end result would be a hull of > questionable integrity as well, as in how many problem areas *didn't* > I fix because I didn't know about them? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: peter_d_wiley > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 3:18 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > > > I got offered a hull in that sort of condition for free. It was still > > too expensive. My advice, FWIW, is not to touch it. If you're still > > thinking on it, get a quote on having it moved to wherever you need it > > to be (assuming you do need to move it). Then check how much *new* > > steel you can buy for the price, delivered to your work site. You may > > well find out that even for free, it's too expensive. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ted, > > > > > > This is the case, it has been sitting for 4 or 5 years raining and > > snowing inside the hull, The rust is no longer on surface everywhere, > > it is now penetrating the steel in many spots. > > > > > > I wonder if once sandblasted and painted it would still make a good > > hull or if there is nothing to do with such a hull. > > > > > > Is there a treatment for pinholes? > > > > > > Martin > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: tedstone@ > > > > Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:31:09 +0000 > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust and hull leakage > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > > > If the water has been sitting in it you may get rust pinhole > damage. > > > > You should check it very thoroughly if you are thinking of > buying it. > > > > I have seen such pinholes were rainwater has been lying in in > > untreated > > > > tanks for a while. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1285 - Release Date: > 2/18/2008 5:50 AM > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16654|16494|2008-02-19 18:45:27|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel smell|On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 10:08:54PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > My point is, what you see as a sea level now is at a single point in > time. The sea level has ALWAYS changed over geological time. If you > take a long enough time scale, people who think they can stabilise it > at its given point are behaving exactly like King Canute trying to > stop the tide coming in. It's bullshit. It's a waste of time & energy. > It's hubris. Concentrate on solvable issues. Peter, this is a sensible point when applied to individuals who are engaging in that kind of headless chicken behavior - but that's not where it currently gets applied. Instead, it's used by slimeball politicians to smear serious research and to destroy the credibility of scientists whose results do not fit a narrow political agenda. The people with the biggest pockets are the ones who can afford to buy the loudest of these slimeballs - and they're not going to lose billions or trillions of dollars for some petty consideration like moral behavior. I don't doubt that you want to focus on the issues where good leverage can be applied; that's my preference as well, and I agree that it's a sensible approach. But denying political reality - that the worst polluters are the ones with the most money, that they will use whatever power they have to maintain the status quo, and that neither morality nor caring for the environment carry any weight on their balance sheets - isn't going to bring you any positive results. > Now, having said that, do not assume that I think trashing good land > to dig up fossil fuels to burn for power etc is a good thing to do, > nor that we should keep on doing it. I simply do not conflate 2 > separate issues into one. Nor am I going to give up a 21C technology > level and return to, for example 18C medicine. Nor is anyone else in > the world, if it's put in those terms. Those who are living a 18C > lifestyle in the 21C are desperately trying to get OUT of it. > > We need a way of having our tech AND minimising its undesirable side > effects. This is, as far as I know, what any sensible researcher is saying. Again, though - that's not what the loudmouths are claiming. Most of the intelligent, beneficial answers to any complex human problem lie in the middle of the spectrum (it's a little thing called "balance".) That, however, is the easiest position to lampoon, distort, and lie about - which is exactly the standard tactic being applied. Anyone presenting a balanced view is a "fence-sitter"; anyone who wants to find a middle ground between raping the earth and starry-eyed idealism is "trying to destroy our economy"; anyone who presents research that doesn't exactly replicate the hyper-conservative howling is a communist who's out to destroy all that's good and holy in the world. This polarizes the discussion, making it nearly impossible to achieve any positive results - and that serves the status quo. I agree that extreme environmentalism can be seen as hypocrisy. However, going to the opposite extreme doesn't serve any positive ends either. The opposite of hypocrisy is not truth or accuracy - it's naivete. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16655|16494|2008-02-19 20:06:50|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel smell|On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:31:38PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Global warming *may* be occurring. > > Human actions *may* be a cause. > > Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not > science. Ditto for anyone who is certain that they're not - and neither position implies anything about the truth or falsity of global warming. Science isn't about certainties; it's about the balance of probabilities based on what we know so far. Given that it _is_ about balance, it's subject to fanatical howling of those who want their certainties - see my earlier post. I do note, however, that those very fanatics who scream loudest about the lack of validity of science (because it's not "certain" about everything) are the ones who ruch to use modern transportation, medicine, and communication equipment (all products of science) instead of avoiding them like the plague. Gosh, do you think that certainty - or lack of it - might not be the actual issue? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16656|16494|2008-02-19 20:19:54|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Diesel smell|On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:31:38PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > > Global warming *may* be occurring. > > Human actions *may* be a cause. > > Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not > science. Ditto for anyone who is certain that they're not - and neither position implies anything about the truth or falsity of global warming. Science isn't about certainties; it's about the balance of probabilities based on what we know so far. Given that it _is_ about balance, it's subject to fanatical howling of those who want their certainties - see my earlier post. I do note, however, that those very fanatics who scream _loudest_ about the lack of validity of science (because it's not "certain" about everything) are the ones who ruch to use modern transportation, medicine, and communication equipment (all products of science) instead of avoiding them like the plague. Gosh, do you think that certainty - or lack of it - might not be the actual issue? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 16657|16494|2008-02-19 20:33:47|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Diesel smell|Sorry about this post being resent by me ----- finger trouble :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul J. Thompson wrote: > On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:31:38PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: >> >> Global warming *may* be occurring. >> >> Human actions *may* be a cause. >> >> Anyone who is certain that both are true is engaging in religion not >> science. > > Ditto for anyone who is certain that they're not - and neither position > implies anything about the truth or falsity of global warming. > > Science isn't about certainties; it's about the balance of > probabilities based on what we know so far. Given that it _is_ about > balance, it's subject to fanatical howling of those who want their > certainties - see my earlier post. > > I do note, however, that those very fanatics who scream _loudest_ about > the lack of validity of science (because it's not "certain" about > everything) are the ones who ruch to use modern transportation, > medicine, and communication equipment (all products of science) instead > of avoiding them like the plague. > > Gosh, do you think that certainty - or lack of it - might not be the > actual issue? > > | 16658|16616|2008-02-19 21:12:21|martin demers|Re: longer keel and less draft|If it would reduce draft from 1ft to 1 1/2ft, it would then be worthed, what do you think? Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: brentswain38@... > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:02:13 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: longer keel and less draft > > > You'd save very little in draft and make the building process another > long learning curve. Twin keels are the best way to reduce draft. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the > bottom of the boat to >> have a flater bottom >> and installing a longer and shallower keel >> all of that to get less draft? >> >> Martin >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16659|16494|2008-02-19 21:16:17|Wesley Cox|Re: Diesel smell|Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than 10 gallons. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Hi Brent > If the average > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > somewhere. > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > impossible conclusion > All good fun > Andy Airey > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: 2/19/2008 10:55 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16660|16615|2008-02-19 21:40:07|Shane Duncan|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|When I did my costing, the big difference 31 and 36 came with the Mast sails rigging and engine I�m no guru boat builder so none of theses I am confidant in making myself. (engine obviously) But with the 31 i can pay for the lot now. My logic for the 31 is that it is the smallest boat that I could comfortably and safely sail to New Zealand (my mother country) or anywhere for that matter. Hell, if I had loads of cash my ideal boat would be a 100ft steel schooner Crewed by 5 long legged Swedish lasses, fanning my brow, feeding me grapes and ice cold beer All day ( Grapes and beer being non geneticaly modified of course) but such is life. ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:54:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? All the detail materials and time are roughly the same for a 31 as for a 36. The difference in cost is not all that great, but when you get too old to cruise, a 36 footer sells for three or four times as much as a 31, and sells much quicker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi > The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since > the materials and time cost is less.Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat > more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with > occasional guest(s)? > Rowland > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16661|16494|2008-02-19 22:25:04|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|Here in Western Australia They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant Powered by a coal fired electric power. They are looking at installing a few more Most of the water is used watering the lawns As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when when your growing them in a desert. Real clever ----- Original Message ---- From: Wesley Cox To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:16:10 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than 10 gallons. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Hi Brent > If the average > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > somewhere. > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > impossible conclusion > All good fun > Andy Airey > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: 2/19/2008 10:55 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16662|16494|2008-02-20 01:00:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|The IPCC AGW and what it is trying to show as science is not a fact but theory or statement of a possible truth as the dictionary defines. To disprove it all you need to do is prove part of it is wrong. That is how a science review works. Lets start with some fun things on boating and history first then get to the science. Maps of the NW passage and some history There is also a passage over the USSR http://www.athropolis.com/map9.htm Sailor that tried to go over the USSR http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2007/09/04/british- yachtsman-who-counted-global-warming-cross-arctic-now-trapped- Drownding polar bears http://www.newsbusters.org/node/11879 Enough science to debunk AGW and the IPCC but just the tip of the ice berg http://www.nzclimatescience.org/images/PDFs/ccr.pdf Some real interesting info on the IPCC, world leaders thoughts and science A Sceptic's Guide to Global Warming that should be read no mater what side you are on. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=56dd129d-e40a-4bad-abd9- 68c808e8809e Al Gores Finantual ties to GW http://newsbusters.org/node/11149 Enough science, links, and list if skeptics as well as info on the hypocrits that make the news as the green people to keep you reading a long time. http://z4.invisionfree.com/Popular_Technology/index.php?showtopic=2050 I ask you to read no less then you ask me to read case of rum on it a boating thig says you will at least question AGW and the IPCC. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > Jon, I don't see your point about drylabbing. The technical reports > are properly referenced and a quick check revealed most references > were published in the primary literature well before the publication > of the current IPCC report. As an example, here is a link to the > paleo section of the report with its reference section. Are you > talking about something other than the scientific technical reports? > http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1- chapter6.pdf > > That there is disagreement and reviewers speaking out is not > unusual. There are also Nobel Prize winners on both sides of the > climate debate that have been outspoken that too much or too little > is being done about climate change. The Acid Rain example I gave > showed the same kinds of disagreements (well, I'm not aware of any > Nobel Laureates involved there). I don't find this unusual in a > complex problem where some uncertainties still remain. > > Talking about warming and cooling over very short period, such as > 1998 to present, is like looking at the current dip in the recent dip > in the stock market and expecting it to continue forever. It is the > long-term trend that matters. It's worth noting that many of the > other indicators have not showed a pause recently. Here's a link to > one such example. > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/104/30/12395.pdf > > I don't disagree that there is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding popular > climate change, but I do like to look at things in a more global > extent. Al Gore has burned a lot of fossil fuels jetting around the > world, but the useful analysis is whether or not there has been a net > decrease in the amount of fuel being burned through his talks > altering the behavior of others. > > Darren | 16663|16663|2008-02-20 03:56:32|The HR Consulting Indonesia|Job Vacancy For project scheduler|Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (211-68) • Minimum of 5 years in related field • Bachelor Degree in Engineering • Scheduler is able to operate Primavera software • Have a PMP (Professional Project Management) certificate would be an advantage • Willing to be located in jobsite – Highland • The contract will be per 6 month with possibility of extension for another 6 month An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter.| 16664|16663|2008-02-20 05:28:31|Shane Duncan|Re: Job Vacancy For project scheduler|maybe they think origami boat builders will make good Project Scheduler ----- Original Message ---- From: The HR Consulting Indonesia To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:56:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Job Vacancy For project scheduler Dear All We are from MBP Skill Indonesia, a leading reputable Human Resources Consultancy. Our client in Gold Mining Company looks for suitable candidates to fill the post of: Project Scheduler (211-68) � Minimum of 5 years in related field � Bachelor Degree in Engineering � Scheduler is able to operate Primavera software � Have a PMP (Professional Project Management) certificate would be an advantage � Willing to be located in jobsite � Highland � The contract will be per 6 month with possibility of extension for another 6 month An attractive remuneration will be offered to the qualified candidate. If you are interested and qualified for these positions, please e-mail your resume/CV on MS World File, your resent photograph, and current job description to resumes@... or PO BOX. 4270 JKTM 1400 or Visit our web: www.mbp-skill.com Do not forget to mention the position number on your application letter. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16665|16494|2008-02-20 09:45:39|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel smell|Highest water consumption per capita in the USA is here in Utah! And for the same reason...watering residential lawns in a desert. We have the only residence in our neighborhood that has no lawn (it is called xeriscape & uses a covering of pine bark & trees for landscaping). Savings of water shows up in our bill from the water district as we always have the minimum charge while others are paying 5 to 8 times as much to "water their lawn". (and most think that we are crazy to do this). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > Here in Western Australia > They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant > Powered by a coal fired electric power. > They are looking at installing a few more > Most of the water is used watering the lawns > As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when > when your growing them in a desert. > Real clever > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wesley Cox > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:16:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) > just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than > 10 gallons. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi Brent > > > If the average > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > somewhere. > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > impossible conclusion > > All good fun > > Andy Airey > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: > 2/19/2008 10:55 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16666|16666|2008-02-20 10:18:52|jameshawk99|I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|Planning an aluminum hull, 48' and not sure of the thickness for the sides. Bottom plate will be 1/4 " , need some advice----- is it recommended that I use 3/16 for the sides or go 1/4 for strength ? 5086 for hull, 5052 for deck. Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? multi-phase miller 252 ? I have an 11 HP that only gives 40 running amps, 20 per side on 230 volt, not enough, so the thought was using another small generator with welder phase set to 460 volt and using the four wires to give 460. At 460 volt the draw would be only about 28 amps. I called Miller and they said it could be done,----but has anyone done it ? Just in the planning stage.| 16667|16494|2008-02-20 10:23:13|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel smell|Here is a look of our future at current energy levels: http://edro.wordpress.com/energy-dinosaurs/ enjoy, Carl Shane Duncan wrote: > > > Here in Western Australia > They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant > Powered by a coal fired electric power. > They are looking at installing a few more > Most of the water is used watering the lawns > As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when > when your growing them in a desert. > Real clever > | 16668|16666|2008-02-20 10:34:52|Carl Anderson|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|James, Sounds like a great project. What design are you using? I saw a beautiful 46' aluminum design by Jack. Was finished as a motorsailer for the north Pacific area. I know nothing about wiring two generators together but would say to get the proper tool for the job as it will always be more efficient and therefore take less of your time fussing with. Have you found the cost of getting commercial power to your building site? Perhaps you really need to look at another site or get the cost of having a single generator. I have some electrical/electronics experience and I'm wondering how you would align the phases of two separate generators so you would really GET 460 volt power out of them. If the phases are not synchronous the voltage will NOT increase as expected (its not DC you are using here). Sometimes it's better to get the right tool for the job so less time is spent on "not-really-productive" things such as jury-rigging your AC power source for welding. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com jameshawk99 wrote: > > > Planning an aluminum hull, 48' and not sure of the thickness for the > sides. Bottom plate will be 1/4 " , need some advice----- is it > recommended that I use 3/16 for the sides or go 1/4 for strength ? > 5086 for hull, 5052 for deck. > Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give > the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? multi-phase miller 252 ? > I have an 11 HP that only gives 40 running amps, 20 per side on 230 > volt, not enough, so the thought was using another small generator > with welder phase set to 460 volt and using the four wires to give > 460. At 460 volt the draw would be only about 28 amps. I called > Miller and they said it could be done,----but has anyone done it ? > Just in the planning stage. > > | 16669|16494|2008-02-20 10:38:01|Shane Duncan|Re: Diesel smell|Carl It�s comforting to know that stupidity is global Re growing lawns in the desert, Utah/Perth http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/ your website is sterling, have been following it for over a year cheers Shane ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:45:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Highest water consumption per capita in the USA is here in Utah! And for the same reason...watering residential lawns in a desert. We have the only residence in our neighborhood that has no lawn (it is called xeriscape & uses a covering of pine bark & trees for landscaping). Savings of water shows up in our bill from the water district as we always have the minimum charge while others are paying 5 to 8 times as much to "water their lawn". (and most think that we are crazy to do this). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > Here in Western Australia > They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant > Powered by a coal fired electric power. > They are looking at installing a few more > Most of the water is used watering the lawns > As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when > when your growing them in a desert. > Real clever > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wesley Cox > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:16:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) > just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than > 10 gallons. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi Brent > > > If the average > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > somewhere. > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > impossible conclusion > > All good fun > > Andy Airey > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: > 2/19/2008 10:55 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16670|16494|2008-02-20 10:41:05|John Fisher|Re: Diesel smell|Funny thing happened here in COS, we were in a drought, so they urged people to conserve water. That didn't work until they made it illegal to water lawns more than twice a week. Then water consumption when down. Then the city found that they were not getting enough $$ for water since people were using less. Now the water department didn't have enough revenue, so they had to raise water rates to support the overhead. Just goes to show that there are no simple solutions. John From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:46 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Highest water consumption per capita in the USA is here in Utah! And for the same reason...watering residential lawns in a desert. We have the only residence in our neighborhood that has no lawn (it is called xeriscape & uses a covering of pine bark & trees for landscaping). Savings of water shows up in our bill from the water district as we always have the minimum charge while others are paying 5 to 8 times as much to "water their lawn". (and most think that we are crazy to do this). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > Here in Western Australia > They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant > Powered by a coal fired electric power. > They are looking at installing a few more > Most of the water is used watering the lawns > As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when > when your growing them in a desert. > Real clever > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wesley Cox > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:16:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) > just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than > 10 gallons. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi Brent > > > If the average > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > somewhere. > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > impossible conclusion > > All good fun > > Andy Airey > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: > 2/19/2008 10:55 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16671|16494|2008-02-20 11:45:53|Knut F Garshol|Re: Diesel smell|As my late Father used to say: "Most of the crazy people have NOT been locked up". The more you learn and hear, the more you see how right he was. Knut -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Duncan Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:38 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Carl It¢s comforting to know that stupidity is global Re growing lawns in the desert, Utah/Perth http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/ your website is sterling, have been following it for over a year cheers Shane ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:45:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell Highest water consumption per capita in the USA is here in Utah! And for the same reason...watering residential lawns in a desert. We have the only residence in our neighborhood that has no lawn (it is called xeriscape & uses a covering of pine bark & trees for landscaping). Savings of water shows up in our bill from the water district as we always have the minimum charge while others are paying 5 to 8 times as much to "water their lawn". (and most think that we are crazy to do this). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Shane Duncan wrote: > > > Here in Western Australia > They have just installed a 45 gigaltiter desalination plant > Powered by a coal fired electric power. > They are looking at installing a few more > Most of the water is used watering the lawns > As having English style green lawns take a lot of water when > when your growing them in a desert. > Real clever > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Wesley Cox > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:16:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Don't forget toilets, the biggest water consumer in a typical home. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul J. Thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell > > Average citizen most cirtainly consumes more than 10 gallons (UK or USA) > just measure how much water most people put in a bath. Rather more than > 10 gallons. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi Brent > > > If the average > > citizen uses 10 gallons a day personally,then that > > makes your daily consumption as a citizen 341 > > gallons,although if it takes 10 tons of water to make > > a ton of steel the requirements to make the steel for > > the boat would be included in the 341gallons > > somewhere. > > Lovely things statistics = the art of drawing a > > straight line from an improbable assumption to an > > impossible conclusion > > All good fun > > Andy Airey > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1287 - Release Date: > 2/19/2008 10:55 AM > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: 2/20/2008 10:26 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: 2/20/2008 10:26 AM| 16672|16615|2008-02-20 12:32:00|David A. Frantz|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|There is a lot of discussion here about boat length and what is desirable. To me it will likely end up being a discussion about economics when the time comes. I'm not even sure I will go the route of a homebuilt yet, the good thing about these discussions is that I get an idea of how size limits me with respect to traveling. The other problem with size, that is larger deep draft ships, is that such boats might be less than ideal around my area for use before retirement. Dave Shane Duncan wrote: > When I did my costing, the big difference 31 and 36 came with the Mast sails rigging and engine > I¢m no guru boat builder so none of theses I am confidant in making myself. (engine obviously) > But with the 31 i can pay for the lot now. > > My logic for the 31 is that it is the smallest boat that I could comfortably and > safely sail to New Zealand (my mother country) or anywhere for that matter. > > Hell, if I had loads of cash my ideal boat would be a 100ft steel schooner > Crewed by 5 long legged Swedish lasses, fanning my brow, feeding me grapes and ice cold beer > All day ( Grapes and beer being non geneticaly modified of course) > but such is life. > Shane did you walk into one of my favorite dreams? My only deviation from this is that I would pick up one long legged lass from each point of the globe. Variety you know. Dave > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 5:54:07 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? > > All the detail materials and time are roughly the same for a 31 as for > a 36. The difference in cost is not all that great, but when you get > too old to cruise, a 36 footer sells for three or four times as much > as a 31, and sells much quicker. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > >> Hi >> The title sums up the question. Thinking of building a 30 footer, since >> the materials and time cost is less.Is it worth it or is a 36ft boat >> more suited to a couple and a 30 footer to a single person, with >> occasional guest(s)? >> Rowland >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 16673|16666|2008-02-20 13:00:33|David A. Frantz|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|James; here is a rough way to look at required welder capacity. With Aluminum you need 1 amp per thousands of thickness in you materials. Thus 1/4" materials would call for 250 amps at the gun. Some would consider that on the low side. So what you need to determine is what that translates into on the supply line side of the welder. Since you are or will in many cases be running the welder maxed out you should really plan on what is the maximal draw of the unit. Since magnetic welders are not all that efficient you may end up with a bigger generator than you might want. This leads to the possibility of an inverter based welder actually being a better deal. As to your generator question realize that at 460 volts you are talking about a three phase generator. Miller should be able to tell you straight away how much current is needed on each phase. In fact last time I looked at one of their catalogs they listed the info right there for each welder. The thing to watch out for is that if you are dependent on a generator to build the boat you may end up having it run other loads beyond welding, that impacts size. In a case lie a project like this you have two choices in my mind. Buy a large generator that will be sold at the end of the project or buy one that can be integrated into your ship as an on board generator. A generator sized for on board usage will likely be marginal relative to what is ideal. That is you would want a little margin over what is required to run the welder based on max draws. Dave PS You could also go with the idea of diesel electric propulsion to justify the larger three phase generator. That is right from the start size the generator to run your welder and future boat drive. This would be a bit do it yourself but I think it is feasible with todays technology. You might lose a little bit in efficiency over a custom built diesel electric but you would also gain a system that runs on common voltages. Dave jameshawk99 wrote: > > Planning an aluminum hull, 48' and not sure of the thickness for the > sides. Bottom plate will be 1/4 " , need some advice----- is it > recommended that I use 3/16 for the sides or go 1/4 for strength ? > 5086 for hull, 5052 for deck. > Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give > the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? multi-phase miller 252 ? > I have an 11 HP that only gives 40 running amps, 20 per side on 230 > volt, not enough, so the thought was using another small generator > with welder phase set to 460 volt and using the four wires to give > 460. At 460 volt the draw would be only about 28 amps. I called > Miller and they said it could be done,----but has anyone done it ? > Just in the planning stage. > > | 16674|16666|2008-02-20 13:02:58|David A. Frantz|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|James; here is a rough way to look at required welder capacity. With Aluminum you need 1 amp per thousands of thickness in you materials. Thus 1/4" materials would call for 250 amps at the gun. Some would consider that on the low side. So what you need to determine is what that translates into on the supply line side of the welder. Since you are or will in many cases be running the welder maxed out you should really plan on what is the maximal draw of the unit. Since magnetic welders are not all that efficient you may end up with a bigger generator than you might want. This leads to the possibility of an inverter based welder actually being a better deal. As to your generator question realize that at 460 volts you are talking about a three phase generator. Miller should be able to tell you straight away how much current is needed on each phase. In fact last time I looked at one of their catalogs they listed the info right there for each welder. The thing to watch out for is that if you are dependent on a generator to build the boat you may end up having it run other loads beyond welding, that impacts size. In a case lie a project like this you have two choices in my mind. Buy a large generator that will be sold at the end of the project or buy one that can be integrated into your ship as an on board generator. A generator sized for on board usage will likely be marginal relative to what is ideal. That is you would want a little margin over what is required to run the welder based on max draws. Dave PS You could also go with the idea of diesel electric propulsion to justify the larger three phase generator. That is right from the start size the generator to run your welder and future boat drive. This would be a bit do it yourself but I think it is feasible with todays technology. You might lose a little bit in efficiency over a custom built diesel electric but you would also gain a system that runs on common voltages. Dave jameshawk99 wrote: > > Planning an aluminum hull, 48' and not sure of the thickness for the > sides. Bottom plate will be 1/4 " , need some advice----- is it > recommended that I use 3/16 for the sides or go 1/4 for strength ? > 5086 for hull, 5052 for deck. > Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give > the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? multi-phase miller 252 ? > I have an 11 HP that only gives 40 running amps, 20 per side on 230 > volt, not enough, so the thought was using another small generator > with welder phase set to 460 volt and using the four wires to give > 460. At 460 volt the draw would be only about 28 amps. I called > Miller and they said it could be done,----but has anyone done it ? > Just in the planning stage. > > | 16675|16666|2008-02-20 13:14:05|John Fisher|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|I don't think you are out of line to go this route. The couple who took me on my first cruise in the Caribbean recently bought a lagoon cat that is diesel electric from the factory. I have not been on it yet, but they are pleased with its performance. I am going to start looking at this technology for when I get to building my boat. PS You could also go with the idea of diesel electric propulsion to justify the larger three phase generator. That is right from the start size the generator to run your welder and future boat drive. This would be a bit do it yourself but I think it is feasible with todays technology. You might lose a little bit in efficiency over a custom built diesel electric but you would also gain a system that runs on common voltages. Dave jameshawk99 wrote: > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16676|16666|2008-02-20 13:48:22|David A. Frantz|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|I've only slightly looked into the packaged systems available for pleasure diesel electrics as I'm far from having a boat at the moment. Some are very interesting indeed. However I'm not to sure if any of them are built around a standard generator outputting 3 phase. My thought was to go the industrial components route. The idea being that such components are or will always be available in one form or another and likely to be cheaper. Unfortunately they will likely also be much larger but that is another issue. Maybe the people building the custom diesel electrics will have everything ironed out by the time I have something afloat. Hopefully John, people like your friends below will step up and post comments on how everything worked and their satisfaction. The biggest problem I see with these systems isn't the concept but rather the newness of the technology for boat specific applications. Dave John Fisher wrote: > > I don't think you are out of line to go this route. The couple who took me > on my first cruise in the Caribbean recently bought a lagoon cat that is > diesel electric from the factory. I have not been on it yet, but they are > pleased with its performance. I am going to start looking at this > technology for when I get to building my boat. > > PS > > You could also go with the idea of diesel electric propulsion to justify > the larger three phase generator. That is right from the start size > the generator to run your welder and future boat drive. This would be > a bit do it yourself but I think it is feasible with todays > technology. You might lose a little bit in efficiency over a custom > built diesel electric but you would also gain a system that runs on > common voltages. > > Dave > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16677|16666|2008-02-20 14:55:56|Ben Okopnik|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 03:18:50PM -0000, jameshawk99 wrote: > > Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give > the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? Many generators have a "synchronization cable" for just that reason. Usually, you can't just hook up two generators in parallel, since they'd be out of phase and "fighting" each other (although some - very few - generators are made to "negotiate" phase sync automatically.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16678|16494|2008-02-20 14:57:51|Ben Okopnik|Re: Diesel smell|On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:39:48AM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > As my late Father used to say: "Most of the crazy people have NOT been > locked up". The more you learn and hear, the more you see how right he was. [laugh] Knut, that just got added to my quote file. If you email me with your father's name, I'll be able to credit it properly. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16679|16666|2008-02-20 15:26:26|Eli Madden|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|Perhaps this would work http://www.readywelder.com/navalpack.htm You can run it off a pair of deep cycle batteries, charge them when not welding. I've heard really good things about the Ready Welder. My Dad has one, it seems like a good unit. Eli On 20/02/2008, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 03:18:50PM -0000, jameshawk99 wrote: > > > > Has anyone ever welded with two portable generators together to give > > the needed 50-60 amps for mig welding ? > > Many generators have a "synchronization cable" for just that reason. > Usually, you can't just hook up two generators in parallel, since they'd > be out of phase and "fighting" each other (although some - very few - > generators are made to "negotiate" phase sync automatically.) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16680|16680|2008-02-20 18:03:35|Darren Bos|small generator|For those that have been using the small chinese-made two-stroke generators it looks like some similarly inexpensive four-stroke ones are now available. I just got back from Princess Auto and they have 1200 watt max, 1000 watt continuous four stroke generators for $189. Surprisingly, the size and weight is only slightly greater than the two-stroke model. Darren| 16681|16680|2008-02-20 18:47:58|Michael Casling|Re: small generator|I have the small two stroke unit. Was fondling the diesel engines yesterday. Only problem I foresee is there is no Princess Auto store in Nanaimo. Someone tell me I am wrong. The store in Kelowna is always busy. Free chilli yesterday. A couple of weeks ago I found backing plates complete for $50-, usually $95. I bought four for my trailer. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Darren Bos To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] small generator For those that have been using the small chinese-made two-stroke generators it looks like some similarly inexpensive four-stroke ones are now available. I just got back from Princess Auto and they have 1200 watt max, 1000 watt continuous four stroke generators for $189. Surprisingly, the size and weight is only slightly greater than the two-stroke model. Darren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16682|16494|2008-02-20 23:41:10|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Diesel smell|The way I was tought was the crazy people have fun and know why. The insane people have fun and are clueless as to why. I personaly like to know why. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:39:48AM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > As my late Father used to say: "Most of the crazy people have NOT been > > locked up". The more you learn and hear, the more you see how right he was. > > [laugh] Knut, that just got added to my quote file. If you email me with > your father's name, I'll be able to credit it properly. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16683|16494|2008-02-20 23:47:58|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell|Jon, I see your point and I agree. The quote from my Father is of course my translation and may be it shoud have said �insane� rather than crazy? But I am sure you know that he meant crazy crazy, not like you and me having fun :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] Re: Diesel smell The way I was tought was the crazy people have fun and know why. The insane people have fun and are clueless as to why. I personaly like to know why. Jon --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:39:48AM -0500, Knut F Garshol wrote: > > As my late Father used to say: "Most of the crazy people have NOT been > > locked up". The more you learn and hear, the more you see how right he was. > > [laugh] Knut, that just got added to my quote file. If you email me with > your father's name, I'll be able to credit it properly. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: 2/20/2008 10:26 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.8/1289 - Release Date: 2/20/2008 10:26 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16684|16615|2008-02-21 04:09:18|edward_stoneuk|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|Hi Rowland, I guess it depends on the couple. It is not a bad idea, when designing the interior to do so in close consultation with ones partner. Even the closest couple needs some personal space sometimes and this can be built in. Some boats interiors are a bit claustrophobic and this could get on peoples nerves, especially at times of difficulty. If you design it together it should help. Regards, Ted| 16685|16685|2008-02-21 08:16:35|seeratlas|Re: Diesel Electric installations|There are some very good articles on diesel/electric propulsion written by systems guru Nigel Calder in Professional Boat Builder starting I think back in August of 07. There are three installments over three issues then a discussion on new battery technologies. These can all be read online :) I am pleased to report that he concludes by deciding to install what is now being called a Parallel Hybrid Diesel Electric system, essentially identical to the system I am putting on my own boat :)- the genesis of which most of you suffered thru as I went thru my own decision process over the last few years here on the board :). Nigel's thinking and conclusions ended up pretty much tracking my own:) [while I'm 'crowing' here lol, I'll mention that he also decided on a 45 ish foot boat for himself, which he is building now:) As for the welder comments, I ended up purchasing an 8k Kubota/Stamford genset that is very compact and easily installed, and took a chance on the Mitech 200P AC/DC inverter welder/plasma cutter unit which runs proverbially "peachy keen" off the genset. Tho you also need a 4.5cfm or better compressor to operate the cutter, and an argon tank for the welder, the whole mess together gives me the ability to tig, mig (with a spool gun), stick, and cut pretty much everything including stainless and alu alloys by reason of the ac/dc ability. The Mitech is also easily stored/moved around the boat by reason of compact size and weight. We'll see how long it lasts. I would think a pro welder with this setup could pretty much make a good living traveling between marina's doing repair and fab work essentially 'on site' by rafting up with the wealthy big boat guys. The genset weighs right about 300 lbs, the inverter welder about 45. seer| 16686|16494|2008-02-21 08:33:39|seeratlas|Re: Diesel smell Florida|Ted, They are sure fighting over fresh water here. I'm up in the northeast corner on the St. John's River working on the boat now, and Orlando wants to start pumping some huge amount of the fresh water out of the St. Johns, which will bring the brackish portion farther up stream. Judging from the construction sites I've seen up and down the state, the whole thing seems to be sitting on essentially a prehistoric beach over which some plants have managed to gain a footing. It's certainly an interesting place, but I'm not from here, I grew up at 7k feet on the side of a mountain in Colorado :) "High ground" has a whole different connotation for me :) As for 'high water' I keep thinking about that program on the island chain out in the atlantic that is predicted to fall apart and cause a massive tidal wave of several hundred feet that is going to come zooming across and smack the American east coast. A few feet one way or another due to ice melt won't matter diddly then. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > Maybe thirty years ago I read in the National Geographic an article on > Florida. The bit I remember was that Southeast florida sits on a lens > of freshwater surrounded by saltwater. The water for Miami came from > bores in this aquifer and due to pumping at greater than replenishment > rates there was saltwater ingress and some of the wells had to be > replaced by others further inland. I guess that if the sea rises this > contamination will get worse but then Miami Beach and a fair part of > Dade County will be underwater. You will probably have some new > neighbours to talk to Seer. The same in the Pacific, as Brent says, > many Pacific Island States will cease to exist and their folks will > have to move to Australia and New Zealand. > > Regards, > Ted > | 16687|16616|2008-02-21 08:45:51|James Pronk|Re: longer keel and less draft|Hello Martin I now have a sourse for 8x40 foot steel in my area. I had to show my supplier how I was going to handle plates that size. They would not drive out from under the plates, but if I pull them off on a loading dock or ramp it would be okay. I just showed them Brents book with what I wanted to build, and told then I would make one order for all the material. My wife and I want to take a trip out to BC to look at some boats and we want to visit some friends up in northern BC. James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > > > If it would reduce draft from 1ft to 1 1/2ft, it would then be worthed, what do you think? > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: brentswain38@... > > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:02:13 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: longer keel and less draft > > > > > > You'd save very little in draft and make the building process another > > long learning curve. Twin keels are the best way to reduce draft. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to the > > bottom of the boat to > >> have a flater bottom > >> and installing a longer and shallower keel > >> all of that to get less draft? > >> > >> Martin > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16688|16666|2008-02-21 08:52:03|seeratlas|Re: I am new to the forum. Planning an alloy hull.|I got a chance to watch a lagoon electric running around the harbor at the Miami show last week. Speed/accelleration and manueverability (especially stopping) were impressive, all done in relative silence. At 40 feet I didn't hear whatever was powering it. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I've only slightly looked into the packaged systems available for > pleasure diesel electrics as I'm far from having a boat at the > moment. Some are very interesting indeed. However I'm not to sure > if any of them are built around a standard generator outputting 3 phase. > > My thought was to go the industrial components route. The idea being > that such components are or will always be available in one form or > another and likely to be cheaper. Unfortunately they will likely also > be much larger but that is another issue. Maybe the people building > the custom diesel electrics will have everything ironed out by the time > I have something afloat. > > Hopefully John, people like your friends below will step up and post > comments on how everything worked and their satisfaction. The biggest > problem I see with these systems isn't the concept but rather the > newness of the technology for boat specific applications. > > Dave > > John Fisher wrote: > > > > I don't think you are out of line to go this route. The couple who took me > > on my first cruise in the Caribbean recently bought a lagoon cat that is > > diesel electric from the factory. I have not been on it yet, but they are > > pleased with its performance. I am going to start looking at this > > technology for when I get to building my boat. > > > > PS > > > > You could also go with the idea of diesel electric propulsion to justify > > the larger three phase generator. That is right from the start size > > the generator to run your welder and future boat drive. This would be > > a bit do it yourself but I think it is feasible with todays > > technology. You might lose a little bit in efficiency over a custom > > built diesel electric but you would also gain a system that runs on > > common voltages. > > > > Dave > > > > jameshawk99 wrote: > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 16689|16685|2008-02-21 16:58:20|Wesley Cox|Re: Diesel Electric installations|I was actually following your electric propulsion genesis, but I don't recall a finale. What did you decide to use? ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:16 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Diesel Electric installations There are some very good articles on diesel/electric propulsion written by systems guru Nigel Calder in Professional Boat Builder starting I think back in August of 07. There are three installments over three issues then a discussion on new battery technologies. These can all be read online :) I am pleased to report that he concludes by deciding to install what is now being called a Parallel Hybrid Diesel Electric system, essentially identical to the system I am putting on my own boat :)- the genesis of which most of you suffered thru as I went thru my own decision process over the last few years here on the board :). Nigel's thinking and conclusions ended up pretty much tracking my own:) [while I'm 'crowing' here lol, I'll mention that he also decided on a 45 ish foot boat for himself, which he is building now:) As for the welder comments, I ended up purchasing an 8k Kubota/Stamford genset that is very compact and easily installed, and took a chance on the Mitech 200P AC/DC inverter welder/plasma cutter unit which runs proverbially "peachy keen" off the genset. Tho you also need a 4.5cfm or better compressor to operate the cutter, and an argon tank for the welder, the whole mess together gives me the ability to tig, mig (with a spool gun), stick, and cut pretty much everything including stainless and alu alloys by reason of the ac/dc ability. The Mitech is also easily stored/moved around the boat by reason of compact size and weight. We'll see how long it lasts. I would think a pro welder with this setup could pretty much make a good living traveling between marina's doing repair and fab work essentially 'on site' by rafting up with the wealthy big boat guys. The genset weighs right about 300 lbs, the inverter welder about 45. seer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1291 - Release Date: 2/21/2008 11:05 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16690|16616|2008-02-21 19:29:42|brentswain38|Re: longer keel and less draft|Let me know well in advance when you plan to be here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > Hello Martin > I now have a sourse for 8x40 foot steel in my area. I had to show my > supplier how I was going to handle plates that size. They would not > drive out from under the plates, but if I pull them off on a loading > dock or ramp it would be okay. I just showed them Brents book with > what I wanted to build, and told then I would make one order for all > the material. > My wife and I want to take a trip out to BC to look at some boats and > we want to visit some friends up in northern BC. > James. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If it would reduce draft from 1ft to 1 1/2ft, it would then be > worthed, what do you think? > > > > Martin > > ________________________________ > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > From: brentswain38@ > > > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:02:13 +0000 > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: longer keel and less draft > > > > > > > > > You'd save very little in draft and make the building process > another > > > long learning curve. Twin keels are the best way to reduce draft. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "inter4905" wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> when building a Brent 36 is it possible to add a second chine to > the > > > bottom of the boat to > > >> have a flater bottom > > >> and installing a longer and shallower keel > > >> all of that to get less draft? > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > | 16691|16615|2008-02-21 19:35:46|brentswain38|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|It's not the people that take up the space, it's all their stuff. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Rowland, > > I guess it depends on the couple. It is not a bad idea, when designing > the interior to do so in close consultation with ones partner. Even > the closest couple needs some personal space sometimes and this can be > built in. Some boats interiors are a bit claustrophobic and this could > get on peoples nerves, especially at times of difficulty. If you > design it together it should help. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 16692|16615|2008-02-22 03:01:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|True Brent, but stuff may squeak and rattle but it don't complain. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It's not the people that take up the space, it's all their stuff. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Hi Rowland, > > > > I guess it depends on the couple. It is not a bad idea, when designing > > the interior to do so in close consultation with ones partner. Even > > the closest couple needs some personal space sometimes and this can be > > built in. Some boats interiors are a bit claustrophobic and this could > > get on peoples nerves, especially at times of difficulty. If you > > design it together it should help. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > | 16693|16494|2008-02-22 09:06:20|sae140|Re: Diesel smell Florida|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As for 'high water' I keep thinking about that program on the island > chain out in the atlantic that is predicted to fall apart and cause a > massive tidal wave of several hundred feet that is going to come > zooming across and smack the American east coast. A few feet one way > or another due to ice melt won't matter diddly then. > > seer > Hi Seer - have you got any more details on this ? Like which island chain are we talking about ... ? Sounds like I might need to buy a new pair of wellies. Colin| 16694|16494|2008-02-22 12:37:34|Darren Bos|Re: Diesel smell Florida|I was curious too so I did some Googling (links below). I think Seer is talking about the Cumbre Vieja Volcano, La Palma Island, Canary Islands. It looks to me like an unlikely event. The wave heights are also based on models that are dependent on the amount of the volcano that falls into the water. The postulated mechanisms for the collapse also mean that if it did happen it would likely be one or more days after the onset of the eruption. So, those of you with boats in Florida or the Eastern Caribbean would have time to get to safe deep water before the wave hits. If you leave when the volcano starts erupting you might have 36 hours to get to deep water. If you watch the news after erupting starts and leave at the moment of collapse you would have about nine hours to get to deep water before the waves arrive. http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~ward/papers/La_Palma_grl.pdf http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060920192823.htm Darren At 06:06 AM 22/02/2008, you wrote: >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"seeratlas" wrote: > > > > As for 'high water' I keep thinking about that program on the island > > chain out in the atlantic that is predicted to fall apart and cause a > > massive tidal wave of several hundred feet that is going to come > > zooming across and smack the American east coast. A few feet one way > > or another due to ice melt won't matter diddly then. > > > > seer > > > >Hi Seer - have you got any more details on this ? Like which island >chain are we talking about ... ? Sounds like I might need to buy a >new pair of wellies. >Colin > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16695|16695|2008-02-22 15:18:31|brentswain38|Stolen boat|I just talkled to a lady who had her 50 ft steel barge stolen from dry storage. She suspects Canam scrap and Dan's Pre cast. If you want to give them a call , and tell them what you think of such thieves, phone calls for Canam are at their expense at 1-877-245-5051. Call long and call often, as if it were your boat that got stolen. It could eventually be. Dans Prercast may cost you a few pennies at 250-746-7400, if you consider it worth a few pennies.Or it could be free if you have the computer setup. Then you can call them long and often as well. Thanks Brent| 16696|16696|2008-02-22 16:43:37|put_to_sea|Stolen steel boats|Well, I guess there is one advantage to boats being built out of "dead vegetation" like I decided to build. No scrap value other than the lead. It won't even make good firewood. Amos| 16697|16494|2008-02-23 05:38:21|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|Alright I'm a scruffy sod living in a house and only using 10 gallons a day,but if you triple it and say 30 gallons it still doesn't alter the principle = society is using a lot more water on your behalf than you would probably want it to.Brent presumeably uses a composting toilet and dives over the side as necessary for everything else(sorry Brent) cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16698|16494|2008-02-23 09:24:08|sae140|Re: Diesel smell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Alright I'm a scruffy sod living in a house and only > using 10 gallons a day,but if you triple it and say 30 > gallons it still doesn't alter the principle = society > is using a lot more water on your behalf than you > would probably want it to.Brent presumeably uses a > composting toilet and dives over the side as necessary > for everything else(sorry Brent) > cheers > Andy Airey > Seems to me it's ok to use as much water as you want - providing a sufficient supply remains for everybody (including animals) within the region, together with adequate safety reserves - as water never actually gets used up, it's just re-cycled over and over again. A good case to outline the complete opposite of this is Israel - where the once majestic River Jordan has been reduced to a mere trickle of an open sewer, and the country has become dependent on energy-hungry de-salination plants for agricultural irrigation. The Palestinians living down-stream of Israel are being forced to rely on ancient artesian wells which are insufficient for their needs and which Israel has plans to high-jack. I don't think it's unreasonable under these circumstances to describe Israel as a non-viable state, and any project to convert desert to arable land is as fatally flawed as trying to prevent coastal erosion. We need to learn adaptation strategies and live with an ever-changing planet, not constantly try to control conditions on it. Colin| 16699|16699|2008-02-23 12:21:18|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Stolen Boat|Hi Brent, Where was the barge stolen from? Need more details for when I call to inquire about "my" stolen 50' barge How many times can I call before it can be called "harrassment"? Do you think it's a good ideal lads, when you call, to make very specific refrence to Roland & Bev's boat that canam "recieved".BUT be very careful to put it in the form of a question. Let them know that the reason for your call was their very well known reputation for recieving stolen property (but of course don't mention it to anyone else, that's slander isn't it?) Don't you think it might also be a good idea to ask them what they think of the upcoming protest that you heard about, with media, requesting the gov't of all stripes, to shut them down and prosecute the owners and staff. Oh ya, don't forget to ask about the upcoming signs on highway...give the fuckers something to think about. I hear signage can react like mushroom, pop up........everywhere, like majic, for years...... Cheers, Shane Stolen boat Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm (PST) I just talkled to a lady who had her 50 ft steel barge stolen from dry storage. She suspects Canam scrap and Dan's Pre cast. If you want to give them a call , and tell them what you think of such thieves, phone calls for Canam are at their expense at 1-877-245-5051. Call long and call often, as if it were your boat that got stolen. It could eventually be. Dans Prercast may cost you a few pennies at 250-746-7400, if you consider it worth a few pennies.Or it could be free if you have the computer setup. Then you can call them long and often as well. Thanks Brent Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca| 16700|16700|2008-02-23 14:10:37|evanmoonjunk|points to ponder: global warming etc.|Just to stir up the nest a little, since the space age started and more and more probes are sent out to the other planets, it has been discovered that "global warming" is happening throughout the solar system and yet they tell us there are no humans on the other planets, go figure. The latest probe to Saturn and its moon, Titan has proven that there are more hydrocarbons on Titan than all the reserves on earth, but no sign of dinosaurs, go figure some more. The Russians for a number of years are finding more evidence to support their theory that oil is produced on an ongoing basis in the earth putting a lie to the peak oil theory. They recently drilled 7 miles down and found oil, lots of it...dinosaurs? We are being scammed big time...Still figuring...Evan| 16701|16700|2008-02-23 15:33:23|Paul|Re: points to ponder: global warming etc.|Interesting, but hardly connected to boat building. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" wrote: > > Just to stir up the nest a little, since the space age started and more > and more probes are sent out to the other planets, it has been > discovered that "global warming" is happening throughout the solar > system and yet they tell us there are no humans on the other planets, > go figure. > The latest probe to Saturn and its moon, Titan has proven that there > are more hydrocarbons on Titan than all the reserves on earth, but no > sign of dinosaurs, go figure some more. > The Russians for a number of years are finding more evidence to > support their theory that oil is produced on an ongoing basis in the > earth putting a lie to the peak oil theory. They recently drilled 7 > miles down and found oil, lots of it...dinosaurs? > We are being scammed big time...Still figuring...Evan > | 16702|16700|2008-02-23 15:40:39|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: points to ponder: global warming etc.|It is not that we don't have it it is we have to protect a nat so can't drill for it. Natural gas is being made all the time with the heat and presher of continental drift in the depths of all subduction zones. This is what I find interesting on energy independance as the governers are getting ready to get togather and talk about how to save America with energy independance. http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/1970 The reality http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2008/01/10/AR2008011002452.html Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" wrote: > > Just to stir up the nest a little, since the space age started and more > and more probes are sent out to the other planets, it has been > discovered that "global warming" is happening throughout the solar > system and yet they tell us there are no humans on the other planets, > go figure. > The latest probe to Saturn and its moon, Titan has proven that there > are more hydrocarbons on Titan than all the reserves on earth, but no > sign of dinosaurs, go figure some more. > The Russians for a number of years are finding more evidence to > support their theory that oil is produced on an ongoing basis in the > earth putting a lie to the peak oil theory. They recently drilled 7 > miles down and found oil, lots of it...dinosaurs? > We are being scammed big time...Still figuring...Evan > | 16703|16699|2008-02-23 18:50:41|brentswain38|Re: Stolen Boat|Given that the guy is being charged I think it is simply statement of fact. I'll look for more info about the barge. Meanwhile you can say anything as long as it is phrased as a questiuon. We are allowed to ask as many questions as we please. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > Where was the barge stolen from? Need more details for > when I call to inquire about "my" stolen 50' barge > > How many times can I call before it can be called > "harrassment"? > > Do you think it's a good ideal lads, when you call, to > make very specific refrence to Roland & Bev's boat > that canam "recieved".BUT be very careful to put it in > the form of a question. Let them know that the reason > for your call was their very well known reputation for > recieving stolen property (but of course don't mention > it to anyone else, that's slander isn't it?) > > Don't you think it might also be a good idea to ask > them what they think of the upcoming protest that you > heard about, with media, requesting the gov't of all > stripes, to shut them down and prosecute the owners > and staff. Oh ya, don't forget to ask about the > upcoming signs on highway...give the fuckers something > to think about. I hear signage can react like > mushroom, pop up........everywhere, like majic, for > years...... > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > Stolen boat > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... > brentswain38 > Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm (PST) > I just talkled to a lady who had her 50 ft steel barge > stolen from dry > storage. She suspects Canam scrap and Dan's Pre cast. > If you want to > give them a call , and tell them what you think of > such thieves, phone > calls for Canam are at their expense at > 1-877-245-5051. Call long and > call often, as if it were your boat that got stolen. > It could > eventually be. > Dans Prercast may cost you a few pennies at > 250-746-7400, if you > consider it worth a few pennies.Or it could be free if > you have the > computer setup. Then you can call them long and often > as well. > Thanks > Brent > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > | 16704|16699|2008-02-23 18:55:04|brentswain38|Re: Stolen Boat|Calls fromn a payphone are totally anonymous Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Given that the guy is being charged I think it is simply statement > of fact. > I'll look for more info about the barge. Meanwhile you can say > anything as long as it is phrased as a questiuon. We are allowed to > ask as many questions as we please. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > Where was the barge stolen from? Need more details for > > when I call to inquire about "my" stolen 50' barge > > > > How many times can I call before it can be called > > "harrassment"? > > > > Do you think it's a good ideal lads, when you call, to > > make very specific refrence to Roland & Bev's boat > > that canam "recieved".BUT be very careful to put it in > > the form of a question. Let them know that the reason > > for your call was their very well known reputation for > > recieving stolen property (but of course don't mention > > it to anyone else, that's slander isn't it?) > > > > Don't you think it might also be a good idea to ask > > them what they think of the upcoming protest that you > > heard about, with media, requesting the gov't of all > > stripes, to shut them down and prosecute the owners > > and staff. Oh ya, don't forget to ask about the > > upcoming signs on highway...give the fuckers something > > to think about. I hear signage can react like > > mushroom, pop up........everywhere, like majic, for > > years...... > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > Stolen boat > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ > > brentswain38 > > Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm (PST) > > I just talkled to a lady who had her 50 ft steel barge > > stolen from dry > > storage. She suspects Canam scrap and Dan's Pre cast. > > If you want to > > give them a call , and tell them what you think of > > such thieves, phone > > calls for Canam are at their expense at > > 1-877-245-5051. Call long and > > call often, as if it were your boat that got stolen. > > It could > > eventually be. > > Dans Prercast may cost you a few pennies at > > 250-746-7400, if you > > consider it worth a few pennies.Or it could be free if > > you have the > > computer setup. Then you can call them long and often > > as well. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options > in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at > http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > | 16705|16699|2008-02-23 18:56:10|brentswain38|Re: Stolen Boat|Where the barg went is only a suspicion, so far.Rowland's boat is a given. Brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Calls fromn a payphone are totally anonymous > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Given that the guy is being charged I think it is simply statement > > of fact. > > I'll look for more info about the barge. Meanwhile you can say > > anything as long as it is phrased as a questiuon. We are allowed > to > > ask as many questions as we please. > > Brent > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Where was the barge stolen from? Need more details for > > > when I call to inquire about "my" stolen 50' barge > > > > > > How many times can I call before it can be called > > > "harrassment"? > > > > > > Do you think it's a good ideal lads, when you call, to > > > make very specific refrence to Roland & Bev's boat > > > that canam "recieved".BUT be very careful to put it in > > > the form of a question. Let them know that the reason > > > for your call was their very well known reputation for > > > recieving stolen property (but of course don't mention > > > it to anyone else, that's slander isn't it?) > > > > > > Don't you think it might also be a good idea to ask > > > them what they think of the upcoming protest that you > > > heard about, with media, requesting the gov't of all > > > stripes, to shut them down and prosecute the owners > > > and staff. Oh ya, don't forget to ask about the > > > upcoming signs on highway...give the fuckers something > > > to think about. I hear signage can react like > > > mushroom, pop up........everywhere, like majic, for > > > years...... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > Stolen boat > > > Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@ > > > brentswain38 > > > Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm (PST) > > > I just talkled to a lady who had her 50 ft steel barge > > > stolen from dry > > > storage. She suspects Canam scrap and Dan's Pre cast. > > > If you want to > > > give them a call , and tell them what you think of > > > such thieves, phone > > > calls for Canam are at their expense at > > > 1-877-245-5051. Call long and > > > call often, as if it were your boat that got stolen. > > > It could > > > eventually be. > > > Dans Prercast may cost you a few pennies at > > > 250-746-7400, if you > > > consider it worth a few pennies.Or it could be free if > > > you have the > > > computer setup. Then you can call them long and often > > > as well. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving > > junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on > Options > > in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at > > http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > > > > | 16706|16700|2008-02-24 01:11:26|Gary Prebble|Re: points to ponder: global warming etc.|Firstly Swain and also Firstly Shaler... Brent and Evan actually live a lifestyle that would bequeath a planet in top shape for your progeny. Brent and Evan for my money could make more money selling Swain/Shaler "Consumerism Delusion" books than they could ever hope to make on origami boat building or books. Evan can post recipes as far as I am concerned. By the way Evan... regarding your analysis...methinks atmosphere may have a mitigating effect. Unlike the time you welded below decks whilst I was grinding above and burnt my ass. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > Interesting, but hardly connected to boat building. > > Paul H. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" > wrote: > > > > Just to stir up the nest a little, since the space age started and > more > > and more probes are sent out to the other planets, it has been > > discovered that "global warming" is happening throughout the solar > > system and yet they tell us there are no humans on the other planets, > > go figure. > > The latest probe to Saturn and its moon, Titan has proven that there > > are more hydrocarbons on Titan than all the reserves on earth, but no > > sign of dinosaurs, go figure some more. > > The Russians for a number of years are finding more evidence to > > support their theory that oil is produced on an ongoing basis in the > > earth putting a lie to the peak oil theory. They recently drilled 7 > > miles down and found oil, lots of it...dinosaurs? > > We are being scammed big time...Still figuring...Evan > > > | 16707|16707|2008-02-24 02:18:16|Paul J. Thompson|All about painting boats with acrylic paint|If you want to know all about painting boats with acrylic paint go to Dave Carnell's site and read up on it. Go to: http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/articles.html#A1 He is a retired paint engineer and knows his stuff. It's aimed at wooden boats but we have wooden interiors and While the base coats on La Chica are epoxy, the decorative coats are all (hull and deck) acrylic. I have done this for three years now and am very happy with the results. My wallet is also happier as it stays fat longer. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor| 16708|16707|2008-02-24 03:01:16|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|It would be interestiong to more updated tests and info. This sight has been on the net for a long time and government regs on what can go into paint have changed. It is well knowen the paint HD or others sells in one state may be very different then what it sells in another. He also clearly said right up frount house and marine paints are simalor not alike. That little difference can become a big one except for a dingy that is on the deck when not being used. Working in home building for a living I can tell you house paint is nowhere as durable as two part marine and I have used both. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > If you want to know all about painting boats with acrylic paint go to > Dave Carnell's site and read up on it. > > Go to: http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/articles.html#A1 > > He is a retired paint engineer and knows his stuff. It's aimed at wooden > boats but we have wooden interiors and While the base coats on La Chica > are epoxy, the decorative coats are all (hull and deck) acrylic. I have > done this for three years now and am very happy with the results. My > wallet is also happier as it stays fat longer. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > | 16709|16707|2008-02-24 03:24:04|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|In his section on waterproofong he states that oxegen molecules are larger then water molecules. Oxegen molicules would mean O2 or O3 not just oxegen. They are larger then H20 but just oxegen is smaller then H2O. His conclusions on craft papaer and glue lins is only a guess as he says and iffy. Craft paper is made to breath and the glue line in even marine ply is not a 100% coating even after hot pressing. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It would be interestiong to more updated tests and info. This sight > has been on the net for a long time and government regs on what can > go into paint have changed. It is well knowen the paint HD or others > sells in one state may be very different then what it sells in > another. He also clearly said right up frount house and marine paints > are simalor not alike. That little difference can become a big one > except for a dingy that is on the deck when not being used. Working > in home building for a living I can tell you house paint is nowhere > as durable as two part marine and I have used both. > > Jon | 16710|16700|2008-02-24 03:34:34|jim dorey|Re: points to ponder: global warming etc.|evanmoonjunk wrote: > > Just to stir up the nest a little, since the space age started and more > and more probes are sent out to the other planets, it has been > discovered that "global warming" is happening throughout the solar > system and yet they tell us there are no humans on the other planets, > go figure. > The latest probe to Saturn and its moon, Titan has proven that there > are more hydrocarbons on Titan than all the reserves on earth, but no > sign of dinosaurs, go figure some more. carbon exists in large amounts on nearly every floating chunk of rock, no big. > The Russians for a number of years are finding more evidence to > support their theory that oil is produced on an ongoing basis in the > earth putting a lie to the peak oil theory. They recently drilled 7 > miles down and found oil, lots of it...dinosaurs? > We are being scammed big time...Still figuring...Evan far as i know, it wasn't a russian theory, but that's not really important. peak oil is a real problem, but only so far as the last underground pools of oil being nearly impossible to extract when the peak is finally hit. there will always be a trickle of oil being produced, supposedly there will be no end, but it doesn't really make peak oil a myth.| 16711|16680|2008-02-24 09:47:33|Alan H. Boucher|Re: small generator|you can also find slightly larger 2500 watt contiuous 4 cycle units on the internet for about $250. I bought one and had to replace the fuel line that was cut during installation. Other than that its ok. It is obvious that they don't do any quality control testing at the end of the line.----- Original Message ----- From: Darren Bos To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] small generator For those that have been using the small chinese-made two-stroke generators it looks like some similarly inexpensive four-stroke ones are now available. I just got back from Princess Auto and they have 1200 watt max, 1000 watt continuous four stroke generators for $189. Surprisingly, the size and weight is only slightly greater than the two-stroke model. Darren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16712|16700|2008-02-24 09:50:01|sae140|Re: points to ponder: global warming etc.|Word is just coming through that one area of the Antartic is melting at a rate much faster than previously predicted. However the cause is thought not to be due to the usual candidates, but rather due to volcanic activity below the ice shelf. The area is highly geothermal, but this aspect of the region has never exactly been highlighted as a possible cause before now - I suppose because it would not fit-in well with the existing mantras. Colin| 16713|16713|2008-02-24 09:56:09|sae140|Off Topic: Electronic Navigation (MaxSea)|A call for help ... is anyone on the forum using MaxSea 10.1.3.2 ? I need just a couple of essential files which are missing from my distribution. Would appreciate a PM if you could assist. Many thanks Colin| 16714|16707|2008-02-24 14:24:23|Paul J. Thompson|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|I am not suggesting that you throw out epoxies, at least not just yet. We still need epoxies for the base coats and La Chica has seven coats of a modified epoxy tar the we have here in NZ on both the inside and the outside. But two part paint is a pain to use and even more of a pain when it comes to touching up. And it is very environmentally unfriendly stuff (unlike some people, I do not think that I have the right to screw up the environment just because I can afford (money wise) to do so). My three years with using water based acrylics have be very positive. They are easy to put on, easy to touch up and easy on my wallet. The drying time is two hours between coats, so I can put on three coats in one day and the job is done. When finished I can wash the brushes off in water and put them away for next time. We live on our boat so the low odour makes them very practical for interior use (we do not need to move off the boat for a day or two, as would be the case with oil based or epoxy paints). Lastly the paints come in a vast range of colours and you can have gloss, satin or mat finishes. Two part polyurethanes are only available (mostly) in high gloss, a terrible choice for a steel boat unless you have lots of filler (a real waste of both time and money). -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > It would be interestiong to more updated tests and info. This sight > has been on the net for a long time and government regs on what can > go into paint have changed. It is well knowen the paint HD or others > sells in one state may be very different then what it sells in > another. He also clearly said right up frount house and marine paints > are simalor not alike. That little difference can become a big one > except for a dingy that is on the deck when not being used. Working > in home building for a living I can tell you house paint is nowhere > as durable as two part marine and I have used both. > > Jon > | 16715|16494|2008-02-24 15:51:08|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell|re Energy Dinosaurs I've thought for a long time that the dinosaurs became extinct because they developed 'intelligence'.Think about it cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16716|16615|2008-02-24 16:25:17|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|There was a survey published - as a book - some years ago on yachts actually cruising the Pacific Ocean.Sizes ranged from 26ft (single handed wooden folkboat,no engine} to 50ftplus.General conclusion was that 36ft was about right for a couple,smaller being a bit cramped and over 40ft being a bit much to handle, and possibly needing extra crew.Temporarily mislaid but will give you exact refs if it turns up.The definitive cruising book is Annie Hill's 'Voyaging on a small income' which will clue you in on the basics, although the Hill's cruising seems to have been mainly in the Atlantic cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16717|16494|2008-02-24 16:34:12|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Diesel smell Florida|Shouldn't worry about tidal waves from the Atlantic.When Yellowstone blows it won't just be Yogi who gets roasted cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16718|16707|2008-02-24 16:58:24|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Works great on the interior but for the exterior of a boat that spends a year or five at a time in the water it would not be my choice for wear and tear. As stated in the US and many parts of the world what the government allows in paint and how well the work changes all the time. What work one day may not work the next or from one area to another. House paint comanys dont change the labels just the contents from area to area depending on restrictions. Buyer be wear. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I am not suggesting that you throw out epoxies, at least not just yet. > We still need epoxies for the base coats and La Chica has seven coats of > a modified epoxy tar the we have here in NZ on both the inside and the > outside. But two part paint is a pain to use and even more of a pain > when it comes to touching up. And it is very environmentally unfriendly > stuff (unlike some people, I do not think that I have the right to screw > up the environment just because I can afford (money wise) to do so). > > My three years with using water based acrylics have be very positive. > They are easy to put on, easy to touch up and easy on my wallet. The > drying time is two hours between coats, so I can put on three coats in > one day and the job is done. When finished I can wash the brushes off in > water and put them away for next time. > > We live on our boat so the low odour makes them very practical for > interior use (we do not need to move off the boat for a day or two, as > would be the case with oil based or epoxy paints). > > Lastly the paints come in a vast range of colours and you can have > gloss, satin or mat finishes. Two part polyurethanes are only available > (mostly) in high gloss, a terrible choice for a steel boat unless you > have lots of filler (a real waste of both time and money). > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor | 16719|16719|2008-02-24 17:40:01|edward_stoneuk|Wind generators.|I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good blow. Regards, Ted| 16720|16720|2008-02-24 17:40:48|Chris|Compound bending aluminum|I'm considering building a Wharram cat out of aluminum. I'd like to get more information about converting plans from plywood to aluminum. I've heard concerns that a sailing catamaran under say 50' could end up being too heavy if built in aluminum. Something about the large hull surface area. The other question I have is on the ability to achieve a slight compound bend with aluminun. I'm sure it depends a lot on thickness, but lets say for 5/32", or 3/16". Most of Wharram's older designs have straight hull sides, which won't be a problem, but the newer designs like the Tiki have a slight curve to the hull sides. Thanks for any help you all can offer. Chris| 16721|16719|2008-02-24 18:32:21|sae140|Re: Wind generators.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > blow. > > Regards, > Ted > Hi Ted there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of electronic braking. The other two methods change the angle of attack of the blades viz-a-viz the wind: the simplest tilts the whole generator assembly (and thus the fan blades) upwards against a pre-set spring pressure, so that the blades become horizontal and are thus presented to the wind 'end-on'. The other is a rather clever/devious system in which the tail-shaft itself hinges so that the blades, although remaining vertically oriented, are forced to present an angle to the wind of around 45 degrees. I've seen the latter technique used at road construction sites where wind generators are used for powering their warning signs. I've also seen quite few with their tail-shafts permanently jammed in the hinged-out position (!). 'best Colin| 16722|16722|2008-02-24 19:57:26|ian46abc|Unfortunate cement vs steel story ...|http://www.lostyacht.org/| 16723|16719|2008-02-24 21:47:53|Eli Madden|Re: Wind generators.|www.otherpower.com Most of those are sized for land, with low wind speeds. But the same basic design could easily be used for a boat. On 24/02/2008, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > > blow. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > Hi Ted > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > electronic braking. > The other two methods change the angle of attack of the blades > viz-a-viz the wind: the simplest tilts the whole generator assembly > (and thus the fan blades) upwards against a pre-set spring pressure, > so that the blades become horizontal and are thus presented to the > wind 'end-on'. > The other is a rather clever/devious system in which the tail-shaft > itself hinges so that the blades, although remaining vertically > oriented, are forced to present an angle to the wind of around 45 > degrees. I've seen the latter technique used at road construction > sites where wind generators are used for powering their warning signs. > I've also seen quite few with their tail-shafts permanently jammed in > the hinged-out position (!). > > 'best > Colin > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16724|16707|2008-02-25 02:07:33|Darren Bos|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Jon, Atomic oxygen is so reactive it is seen only transitionally in water and air. So paint is an effective barrier to oxygen in the forms that it occurs in air and water (primarily O2 with a dash of O3 at the altitudes our boats travel). Yes, you shouldn't rely on paint to protect your spacecraft from the small amounts of atomic oxygen found in space. Virtually all films we apply to surfaces are permeable to H2O vapor, including two part epoxies. Two part polyurethanes are more permeable to water than epoxy, so putting two-part polyurethane on top of epoxy provides no advantage to the rate at which water moves through the epoxy. What Paul is recommending is entirely sensible. Use an epoxy for a base coat. Coal tar epoxy is one of the best choices as it has one of the lowest permeabilities to water. After multiple coats of coal tar epoxy, topcoat with water based acrylic, which provides a color coat that is easy to touch up and much easier to apply than two part polyurethanes. Water based acrylics with polyurethane can now outperform oil-based one-part polyurethane (eg. Interlux Brightsides). As far as I know, the two-part paints still have the edge in durability, but it is not as great as it once was, and you pay for it in difficulty in application and much higher cost per gallon. Most of the variation in paints between states is due to regulations on the use of volatile organic hydrocarbons (VOC's), thus it is primarily oil-based paints that are effected, not water based acrylic (latex) paints. I have no inside information on the paint companies, but the future of paint is in water-based products (look to California and Europe), so I expect that most of the improvements are going to be seen in water-based products. Personally, I am sold on water-based products. My least favorite part of painting is cleaning brushes..... Darren At 12:24 AM 24/02/2008, you wrote: >In his section on waterproofong he states that oxegen molecules are >larger then water molecules. Oxegen molicules would mean O2 or O3 not >just oxegen. They are larger then H20 but just oxegen is smaller then >H2O. His conclusions on craft papaer and glue lins is only a guess as >he says and iffy. Craft paper is made to breath and the glue line in >even marine ply is not a 100% coating even after hot pressing. > >Jon > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >"Jon & Wanda(Tink)" >wrote: > > > > It would be interestiong to more updated tests and info. This sight > > has been on the net for a long time and government regs on what can > > go into paint have changed. It is well knowen the paint HD or others > > sells in one state may be very different then what it sells in > > another. He also clearly said right up frount house and marine paints > > are simalor not alike. That little difference can become a big one > > except for a dingy that is on the deck when not being used. Working > > in home building for a living I can tell you house paint is nowhere > > as durable as two part marine and I have used both. > > > > Jon > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16725|16719|2008-02-25 10:17:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind generators.|On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:32:18PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > > blow. > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > electronic braking. In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but have never actually seen one. Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at 12v * 40A = 480W Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW resistors aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. > The other two methods change the angle of attack of the blades > viz-a-viz the wind: the simplest tilts the whole generator assembly > (and thus the fan blades) upwards against a pre-set spring pressure, > so that the blades become horizontal and are thus presented to the > wind 'end-on'. The AirX changes its angle of attack in a different way: it uses progressively-twisted carbon fiber blades, which "untwist" and stall under high wind pressure. Simple and clever. One of the things I used to do when I was cruising is to design power systems/budgets for other cruising boats. Up until a certain point, I only recommended wind gens with lots of caveats and reservations - one of the reasons being poorly-designed braking systems (the governor types were particularly evil, since they would put a lot of strain on the shaft - eventually causing it to snap off, sending the fast-spinning blade flying.) Once the AirX came out, I started recommending them for everybody. I don't own any stock in them (perhaps I should...) - I just admire the hell out of their good design. They're pretty pricey, but you can get a good break by shopping around. Oh, and they have an excellent built-in voltage regulator, too. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16726|16726|2008-02-25 14:51:21|Ronnie Foster|Your Book|Brent, How do I obtain a copy of your book about "Origami Boat Building"? Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16727|16726|2008-02-25 15:22:34|harveyplanes|Re: Your Book|Ronnie, you can get Brent's book by mailing him $27.00 at the following... 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 I see you are in Houston...thinking of building a Brent boat? I'm over in Bay St. Louis, MS --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > Brent, > > > > How do I obtain a copy of your book about "Origami Boat Building"? > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16728|16719|2008-02-25 15:49:07|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Wind generators.|Another way would be to use a multi bladed windmill like the type used to pump water - these start up at low wind speeds with high torque but the blades interfere with each other as the wind speed increases and this seems to be self limiting cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16729|16719|2008-02-25 17:21:16|brentswain38|Re: Wind generators.|Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:32:18PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > > > blow. > > > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the > > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > > electronic braking. > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but > have never actually seen one. > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW resistors > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. > > > The other two methods change the angle of attack of the blades > > viz-a-viz the wind: the simplest tilts the whole generator assembly > > (and thus the fan blades) upwards against a pre-set spring pressure, > > so that the blades become horizontal and are thus presented to the > > wind 'end-on'. > > The AirX changes its angle of attack in a different way: it uses > progressively-twisted carbon fiber blades, which "untwist" and stall > under high wind pressure. Simple and clever. > > One of the things I used to do when I was cruising is to design power > systems/budgets for other cruising boats. Up until a certain point, I > only recommended wind gens with lots of caveats and reservations - one > of the reasons being poorly-designed braking systems (the governor types > were particularly evil, since they would put a lot of strain on the > shaft - eventually causing it to snap off, sending the fast- spinning > blade flying.) Once the AirX came out, I started recommending them for > everybody. I don't own any stock in them (perhaps I should...) - I just > admire the hell out of their good design. They're pretty pricey, but you > can get a good break by shopping around. Oh, and they have an excellent > built-in voltage regulator, too. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16730|16719|2008-02-25 17:22:40|brentswain38|Re: Wind generators.|A handle on the back lets you turn it sideways to the wind to stop it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force > winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds > having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook > thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:32:18PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef > them to > > > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any > views on the > > > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head > would get > > > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control > in a good > > > > blow. > > > > > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - > the > > > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > > > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > > > electronic braking. > > > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent > it from > > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking > force. > > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be > shorted, but > > have never actually seen one. > > > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across > the > > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could > get > > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) > was > > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at > that > > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to > Ohms' > > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to > double the > > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW > resistors > > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive > store. > > > > > The other two methods change the angle of attack of the blades > > > viz-a-viz the wind: the simplest tilts the whole generator > assembly > > > (and thus the fan blades) upwards against a pre-set spring > pressure, > > > so that the blades become horizontal and are thus presented to > the > > > wind 'end-on'. > > > > The AirX changes its angle of attack in a different way: it uses > > progressively-twisted carbon fiber blades, which "untwist" and > stall > > under high wind pressure. Simple and clever. > > > > One of the things I used to do when I was cruising is to design > power > > systems/budgets for other cruising boats. Up until a certain > point, I > > only recommended wind gens with lots of caveats and reservations - > one > > of the reasons being poorly-designed braking systems (the governor > types > > were particularly evil, since they would put a lot of strain on the > > shaft - eventually causing it to snap off, sending the fast- > spinning > > blade flying.) Once the AirX came out, I started recommending them > for > > everybody. I don't own any stock in them (perhaps I should...) - I > just > > admire the hell out of their good design. They're pretty pricey, > but you > > can get a good break by shopping around. Oh, and they have an > excellent > > built-in voltage regulator, too. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 16731|16707|2008-02-25 17:26:43|brentswain38|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Arylic is one of the most UV resistant plastics known. It may make an excellent topcoat over epoxy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I am not suggesting that you throw out epoxies, at least not just yet. > We still need epoxies for the base coats and La Chica has seven coats of > a modified epoxy tar the we have here in NZ on both the inside and the > outside. But two part paint is a pain to use and even more of a pain > when it comes to touching up. And it is very environmentally unfriendly > stuff (unlike some people, I do not think that I have the right to screw > up the environment just because I can afford (money wise) to do so). > > My three years with using water based acrylics have be very positive. > They are easy to put on, easy to touch up and easy on my wallet. The > drying time is two hours between coats, so I can put on three coats in > one day and the job is done. When finished I can wash the brushes off in > water and put them away for next time. > > We live on our boat so the low odour makes them very practical for > interior use (we do not need to move off the boat for a day or two, as > would be the case with oil based or epoxy paints). > > Lastly the paints come in a vast range of colours and you can have > gloss, satin or mat finishes. Two part polyurethanes are only available > (mostly) in high gloss, a terrible choice for a steel boat unless you > have lots of filler (a real waste of both time and money). > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor > > > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > It would be interestiong to more updated tests and info. This sight > > has been on the net for a long time and government regs on what can > > go into paint have changed. It is well knowen the paint HD or others > > sells in one state may be very different then what it sells in > > another. He also clearly said right up frount house and marine paints > > are simalor not alike. That little difference can become a big one > > except for a dingy that is on the deck when not being used. Working > > in home building for a living I can tell you house paint is nowhere > > as durable as two part marine and I have used both. > > > > Jon > > > | 16732|16722|2008-02-25 17:32:26|brentswain38|Re: Unfortunate cement vs steel story ...|I had the same experience when my cement boat washed up on a reef in Fiji, in 1975. As the Fijians said, she broke up like a watermelon dropped on a sidewalk. Had she been steel, she wouldn't have even been damaged in the same conditions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ian46abc" wrote: > > http://www.lostyacht.org/ > | 16733|16719|2008-02-25 21:11:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind generators.|On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 10:21:16PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force > winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds > having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook > thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. As I'd said before, until AirX came on the market, I wasn't really big on recommending wind gens at all, for a number of reasons. Mine's been through a number of hurricanes with me - including George, the eye of which passed 5 miles south of me while it was blowing 145kt and moving at 15kt, for a grand total of 160kt - and I've never had any trouble with it. I've never heard of anyone burning out an AirX that way, either. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16734|16719|2008-02-25 22:36:48|harveyplanes|Re: Wind generators.|check out the Red Baron wind generator.....I've always loved it, and trusted it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 10:21:16PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force > > winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds > > having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook > > thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. > > As I'd said before, until AirX came on the market, I wasn't really big > on recommending wind gens at all, for a number of reasons. Mine's been > through a number of hurricanes with me - including George, the eye of > which passed 5 miles south of me while it was blowing 145kt and moving > at 15kt, for a grand total of 160kt - and I've never had any trouble > with it. I've never heard of anyone burning out an AirX that way, > either. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16735|16719|2008-02-26 05:31:30|sae140|Re: Wind generators.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force > winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds > having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook > thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. > Brent > > A handle on the back lets you turn it sideways to the wind to stop > it. Brent Good ideas Brent - but Ted is talking about fitting a masthead genny. There's another complication with fitting a genny at the masthead - the cable run. Unless you're fitting slip-rings (something else to go wrong) then you risk developing cable-twist over the long-term. Also, in order to accomodate some twist, the cable needs to run freely down the mast - which in turn risks cable-slap at anchor. I think there's a lot to be said for fitting the genny on a transom-mounted pipe. Run the cable down through the pipe and check for twist every six months or so. Ted - Dean has a Rutland fitted this way on his Spray, which is left permanently in place. Usually develops half a dozen twists a year which is no big deal to correct. Rutland are a good brand here in Britain. Colin| 16736|16719|2008-02-26 06:42:41|sae140|Re: Wind generators.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:32:18PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > > > blow. > > > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the > > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > > electronic braking. > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but > have never actually seen one. > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW resistors > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. Shorting the output with a switch - either mechanical or a MosFET is fine to *prevent* the blades from turning in advance of a storm, but to clamp the output like this when already generating serious current would very likely burn out the cables or field windings. You could try PWM-ing a MosFET to gradually increase the braking force, but the dissipated energy (i.e. heat) still needs to go somewhere (!). Some part of the circuit is going to get VERY hot until you can get the blade-speed - and thus generated output - down to something reasonable. Re: the Air-X: http://www.excessenergy.net/windgenerators.htm "Air Industrial. For high wind areas or extreme environments, the Industrial Air 403 has special design features to improve performance and reliability. These include higher strength blades, anodized cooling fins to reduce internal heating and larger gauge wires. It has an external regulator, with a resistive load dump to dissipate the excess power." "Air 403 Wind Generator Stop Switch. Installation of Air 403 wind generators requires a stop switch to short circuit the output for servicing or to prevent overspeed conditions. The short circuit acts like a brake and slows the wind generator rotation down enough to stop the blades by hand. The Stop Switch also provides overcurrent protection on the wiring and can be installed anywhere between the wind generator and the batteries." So their 'Stop Switch Assembly' confers an overcurrent protection characteristic to protect the wiring - I'd say this strongly suggests the inclusion of a high-wattage low value-resistance device - either a discrete resistor, or some kind of semi-conductor performing the same function. It would be mighty useful if someone were able to open up one of these boxes to check inside ? Colin| 16737|16722|2008-02-26 07:20:21|Shane Duncan|Re: Unfortunate cement vs steel story ...|Having spent the last 6 years in the insurance industry (because i care), working on premium rating algorithms there are some pretty sound reasons why insurance companies will not insure a second hand Freo cement Yacht Yet will be happy to insure a second hand steel yacht They want to make a profit. ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:32:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Unfortunate cement vs steel story ... I had the same experience when my cement boat washed up on a reef in Fiji, in 1975. As the Fijians said, she broke up like a watermelon dropped on a sidewalk. Had she been steel, she wouldn't have even been damaged in the same conditions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ian46abc" wrote: > > http://www.lostyacht.org/ > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16738|16719|2008-02-26 10:26:08|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind generators.|On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:31:28AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Billy fried his KISS wind generator that way in Hurricane force > > winds comming from Hawaii.It billowed smoke. In stronger winds > > having a small hole in the end of each blade and putting an S hook > > thru it , tied down with a piece of string ,does the trick. > > Brent > > > > A handle on the back lets you turn it sideways to the wind to stop > > it. Brent > > > Good ideas Brent - but Ted is talking about fitting a masthead genny. > > There's another complication with fitting a genny at the masthead - > the cable run. Unless you're fitting slip-rings (something else to go > wrong) then you risk developing cable-twist over the long-term. Also, > in order to accomodate some twist, the cable needs to run freely down > the mast - which in turn risks cable-slap at anchor. The Air-X comes with the slip-rings built in; the wires coming out of the bottom of the factory unit don't move at all. Again, not that I own any stock in this company, but anything you can just put up and leave for... has it been 8 years already?... is pretty impressive. Oh, I did have to go up and fiddle with it once - after a bird flew into it. :\ Other than that, no maintenance or anything else needed: it just sits there and produces power. It also makes an excellent alarm when a sudden front passes through: at 40kt or so, it sounds like someone sticking a finger into a fan (that's the stalling bit). Along with my Lavac, that's one of the few pieces of marine equipment that I consider to be damn near perfect, as far as maturity of design goes. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16739|16719|2008-02-26 10:58:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind generators.|On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 11:42:37AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from > > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. > > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but > > have never actually seen one. > > > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the > > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get > > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was > > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that > > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' > > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the > > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW > resistors > > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. > > > Shorting the output with a switch - either mechanical or a MosFET is > fine to *prevent* the blades from turning in advance of a storm, but > to clamp the output like this when already generating serious current > would very likely burn out the cables or field windings. I don't think so. You amy be visualizing what would happen if you had an essentially infinite output capacity (e.g., a public utility generator), and I would agree with you in that case - but with the wind generator, all power production stops _immediately_ when the output is shorted, since the back EMF acts as a very powerful brake on the system. Also, there's no current spike such as there would be in the former case (except for the microscopic one due to the capacitance of the wire run) since the generator is already producing the maximum output for the wind speed. It is true that dumping 500W into a short isn't a nice thing to do to a pair of switch contacts - but switches are cheap. As well, the generator itself is somewhat protected by the series inductance in the wire run and the windings. In any case, in all the years that I've been using it, this does not appear to create any problems, even in the switch (although I carry a spare just in case; at $3.99 from my local Autozone, it would be stupid not to. Besides, a high-amp switch is always a useful thing on a boat.) > You could try > PWM-ing a MosFET to gradually increase the braking force, but the > dissipated energy (i.e. heat) still needs to go somewhere (!). Sure. That's why most MOSFETs come in a TO-3 case and get mounted on BIG heatsinks. :) > Some part of the circuit is going to get VERY hot until you can get > the blade-speed - and thus generated output - down to something > reasonable. The trick for getting the blade speed down is back EMF - and you're not going to generate much of that by slowly increasing the load. > Re: the Air-X: > http://www.excessenergy.net/windgenerators.htm > "Air Industrial. For high wind areas or extreme environments, the > Industrial Air 403 has special design features to improve performance > and reliability. These include higher strength blades, anodized > cooling fins to reduce internal heating and larger gauge wires. It has > an external regulator, with a resistive load dump to dissipate the > excess power." > > "Air 403 Wind Generator Stop Switch. Installation of Air 403 wind > generators requires a stop switch to short circuit the output for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > servicing or to prevent overspeed conditions. Exactly my contention. > The short circuit acts > like a brake and slows the wind generator rotation down enough to stop > the blades by hand. The Stop Switch also provides overcurrent > protection on the wiring and can be installed anywhere between the > wind generator and the batteries." > > So their 'Stop Switch Assembly' confers an overcurrent protection > characteristic to protect the wiring - I'd say this strongly suggests > the inclusion of a high-wattage low value-resistance device - either a > discrete resistor, or some kind of semi-conductor performing the same > function. I disagree. The overcurrent protection that they're talking about comes from not letting the generator spin freely in storm-force winds - not from circuitry. Researching it further shows the following: From http://www.air403windgenerators.com/403faq.html Is it possible to short my AIR-X? Yes, you can short your AIR-X without causing any damage; however, be absolutely certain you do not short your batteries, as this could cause serious damage, expulsion of sulfuric acid or an explosion. First, disconnect the turbine from the battery and then connect the turbine positive wire to the turbine negative wire. Doing this will safely short the turbine and stop it from spinning. In high wind conditions it will spin very slowly when shorted. The stop switch (toggle switch) can be used to stop the turbine by disconnecting the battery and shorting the turbine wires. The price for the above is listed as Stop Switch (50A Toggle Switch) $29 The description above, the name, and the price strongly imply that it's just an SPST or DPDT switch and a case. You're certainly not going to get a big, expensive MOSFET _and_ a control circuit for it _and_ a 50A switch _and_ a case for under 30 bucks. From http://www.solardyne.com/air403marine.html AIR X Stop Switch This high capacity stop switch allows you to stop the turbine for inspection, and provides a general safety stop switch to stop the blades from spinning. This high-capacity double-pole double-throw switch is a must for the complete, safe operation of this powerful generator. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16740|16719|2008-02-26 14:21:15|mark hamill|Re: Wind generators.|Hi: I have an Air Marine wind generator. The three blades are quite noisy. They recommend fine sanding the blades and waxing them which I did. I have been near the same unit on different boats and there is no difference in sound from "treated" to non treated blades. The multi blade units like the Ampair 100 I have been around are very quiet. When mine reaches maximum charg it shuts down with a bit of a roar. On older units that were not self regulating for wind speed and charge sombody told me they just threw a line into the prop to stop it. Moons ago I found DIY gnerator sites on the web.| 16741|16719|2008-02-26 16:26:39|brentswain38|Re: Wind generators.|Billy's burned to a lump of charcoal that way. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 11:42:37AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from > > > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. > > > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > > > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but > > > have never actually seen one. > > > > > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the > > > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get > > > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was > > > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that > > > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' > > > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > > > > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > > > > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the > > > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW > > resistors > > > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > > > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > > > > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. > > > > > > Shorting the output with a switch - either mechanical or a MosFET is > > fine to *prevent* the blades from turning in advance of a storm, but > > to clamp the output like this when already generating serious current > > would very likely burn out the cables or field windings. > > I don't think so. You amy be visualizing what would happen if you had an > essentially infinite output capacity (e.g., a public utility generator), > and I would agree with you in that case - but with the wind generator, > all power production stops _immediately_ when the output is shorted, > since the back EMF acts as a very powerful brake on the system. Also, > there's no current spike such as there would be in the former case > (except for the microscopic one due to the capacitance of the wire run) > since the generator is already producing the maximum output for the wind > speed. > > It is true that dumping 500W into a short isn't a nice thing to do to a > pair of switch contacts - but switches are cheap. As well, the generator > itself is somewhat protected by the series inductance in the wire run > and the windings. In any case, in all the years that I've been using it, > this does not appear to create any problems, even in the switch > (although I carry a spare just in case; at $3.99 from my local Autozone, > it would be stupid not to. Besides, a high-amp switch is always a useful > thing on a boat.) > > > You could try > > PWM-ing a MosFET to gradually increase the braking force, but the > > dissipated energy (i.e. heat) still needs to go somewhere (!). > > Sure. That's why most MOSFETs come in a TO-3 case and get mounted on BIG > heatsinks. :) > > > Some part of the circuit is going to get VERY hot until you can get > > the blade-speed - and thus generated output - down to something > > reasonable. > > The trick for getting the blade speed down is back EMF - and you're not > going to generate much of that by slowly increasing the load. > > > Re: the Air-X: > > http://www.excessenergy.net/windgenerators.htm > > "Air Industrial. For high wind areas or extreme environments, the > > Industrial Air 403 has special design features to improve performance > > and reliability. These include higher strength blades, anodized > > cooling fins to reduce internal heating and larger gauge wires. It has > > an external regulator, with a resistive load dump to dissipate the > > excess power." > > > > "Air 403 Wind Generator Stop Switch. Installation of Air 403 wind > > generators requires a stop switch to short circuit the output for > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > servicing or to prevent overspeed conditions. > > Exactly my contention. > > > The short circuit acts > > like a brake and slows the wind generator rotation down enough to stop > > the blades by hand. The Stop Switch also provides overcurrent > > protection on the wiring and can be installed anywhere between the > > wind generator and the batteries." > > > > So their 'Stop Switch Assembly' confers an overcurrent protection > > characteristic to protect the wiring - I'd say this strongly suggests > > the inclusion of a high-wattage low value-resistance device - either a > > discrete resistor, or some kind of semi-conductor performing the same > > function. > > I disagree. The overcurrent protection that they're talking about comes > from not letting the generator spin freely in storm-force winds - not > from circuitry. > > Researching it further shows the following: > > From http://www.air403windgenerators.com/403faq.html > > Is it possible to short my AIR-X? > > Yes, you can short your AIR-X without causing any damage; however, > be absolutely certain you do not short your batteries, as > this could cause serious damage, expulsion of sulfuric acid or an > explosion. First, disconnect the turbine from the battery and > then connect the turbine positive wire to the turbine negative wire. > Doing this will safely short the turbine and stop it from > spinning. In high wind conditions it will spin very slowly when shorted. > The stop switch (toggle switch) can be used to stop the > turbine by disconnecting the battery and shorting the turbine wires. > > The price for the above is listed as > > Stop Switch (50A Toggle Switch) $29 > > The description above, the name, and the price strongly imply that it's > just an SPST or DPDT switch and a case. You're certainly not going to > get a big, expensive MOSFET _and_ a control circuit for it _and_ a 50A > switch _and_ a case for under 30 bucks. > > From http://www.solardyne.com/air403marine.html > > AIR X Stop Switch This high capacity stop switch allows you to > stop the turbine for inspection, and provides a general safety stop > switch to stop the blades from spinning. This high-capacity double-pole > double-throw switch is a must for the complete, safe operation of this > powerful generator. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16742|16719|2008-02-26 16:32:55|brentswain38|Re: Wind generators.|I think the problems with a masthead generator would far outweigh the benefits.I find that having mine on a post at the stern high enough to let me barely reach the blade , works well. You could anchor from the stern , then tie your generator at an angle to the wind , as a stern tie keeps her more or less at the same angle to the wind.. Then adjusting the angle will adjust the speed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 11:32:18PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef > them to > > > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views > on the > > > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head > would get > > > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in > a good > > > > blow. > > > > > > there are three methods I know of for controlling blade speed - the > > > first is to place a high-wattage low-value resistor onto the > > > generator's output - which is a crude but effective method of > > > electronic braking. > > > > In most cases, simply shorting the generator output will prevent it from > > spinning up - as soon as it starts, it generates its own braking force. > > That's what my AirX does, and that's how every wind gen I've ever > > installed worked. I've heard of wind gens that shouldn't be shorted, but > > have never actually seen one. > > > > Placing a very low value (and *very* high wattage) resistor across the > > output should slow it down - but finding something like that could get > > rather problematic. When I was in Bermuda and hurricane Arlene (?) was > > passing by, I left the AirX on until it was blowing about 45kt; at that > > point, it was producing a bit over 40 amps. Since, according to Ohms' > > Law, power is equal to voltage times current, you're looking at > > > > 12v * 40A = 480W > > > > Oh, and let's not forget: standard engineering practice is to double the > > maximum wattage for safety. Once you've done that... well, 1kW > resistors > > aren't easily available; in fact, the only hits in Google are where > > people meant 'kiloohm' and typed 'kilowatt/kW' instead. > > > > On the other hand, a 40A switch is easily found in any automotive store. > > > Shorting the output with a switch - either mechanical or a MosFET is > fine to *prevent* the blades from turning in advance of a storm, but > to clamp the output like this when already generating serious current > would very likely burn out the cables or field windings. You could try > PWM-ing a MosFET to gradually increase the braking force, but the > dissipated energy (i.e. heat) still needs to go somewhere (!). > Some part of the circuit is going to get VERY hot until you can get > the blade-speed - and thus generated output - down to something > reasonable. > > Re: the Air-X: > http://www.excessenergy.net/windgenerators.htm > "Air Industrial. For high wind areas or extreme environments, the > Industrial Air 403 has special design features to improve performance > and reliability. These include higher strength blades, anodized > cooling fins to reduce internal heating and larger gauge wires. It has > an external regulator, with a resistive load dump to dissipate the > excess power." > > "Air 403 Wind Generator Stop Switch. Installation of Air 403 wind > generators requires a stop switch to short circuit the output for > servicing or to prevent overspeed conditions. The short circuit acts > like a brake and slows the wind generator rotation down enough to stop > the blades by hand. The Stop Switch also provides overcurrent > protection on the wiring and can be installed anywhere between the > wind generator and the batteries." > > So their 'Stop Switch Assembly' confers an overcurrent protection > characteristic to protect the wiring - I'd say this strongly suggests > the inclusion of a high-wattage low value-resistance device - either a > discrete resistor, or some kind of semi-conductor performing the same > function. It would be mighty useful if someone were able to open up > one of these boxes to check inside ? > > Colin > | 16743|16719|2008-02-26 16:51:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Wind generators.|Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? Regards, Ted| 16744|16719|2008-02-26 17:04:45|Tom Mann|Re: Wind generators.|Would the weight of unit and cabling be an issue up high like that? Tom PS stenerio broching under spinnaker dipping mast, by by gen On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 1:51 PM, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16745|16719|2008-02-26 18:12:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: Wind generators.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Would the weight of unit and cabling be an issue up high like that? > Tom > PS stenerio broching under spinnaker dipping mast, by by gen > That's a point Tom. The Air-X weighs 6kg (13lbs). There would be quite a flick on it when the boat rolls or hits waves. Regards, Ted| 16746|16719|2008-02-26 19:11:25|Darren Bos|Re: Wind generators.|I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents though. Calculations below if you are interested. As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to play with the numbers http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm Darren At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > >Regards, > >Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16747|16719|2008-02-26 19:29:54|Tom Mann|Re: Wind generators.|Actualy have to add a bit to your calc the 36 footer's mast is around 45 to 50 foot + the highth above that for wind gen. with the 12 volt there would be a lot of loss but what if you run 36 or 48 volt system would that be less loss IE get by with smaller wiring? Tom On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Darren Bos wrote: > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > though. Calculations below if you are interested. > > As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a > power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used > a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For > low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 > gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at > 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would > need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So > lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and > we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be > use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power > loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss > and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of > the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 > amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty > feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the > wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking > about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to > provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. > > Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to > play with the numbers > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > Darren > > > At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: > > >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > > >Regards, > > > >Ted > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16748|16748|2008-02-26 19:32:46|heretic_37ft|http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG|Hi Brent: Found a Swain or similar origami design on a remote river in Burrun Coast NP, Queensland, Australia. Picture was during an "East Coast Low" the rain and TS precluded any further observation or contact: http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG Spent 2 weeks on 4WD trip trying to find marinas and surf. Found a deserted point break I called the "Twilight Zone". It broke like Malibu on steroids. http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1150051.JPG I'm back in Hawaii (via Jet Star) ready to take my lovely Makena (BS36) to Molokai. VTY, Heretic_37ft| 16749|16719|2008-02-26 19:41:14|Eli Madden|Re: Wind generators.|Here's the manual for the Air-X Marine - http://www.windenergy.com/documents/manuals/0057_REV_D_AIR-X_Marine_Manual.pdf Page 10 discusses wire sizing. Eli On 26/02/2008, Tom Mann wrote: > > Actualy have to add a bit to your calc the 36 footer's mast is around 45 > to > 50 foot + the highth above that for wind gen. with the 12 volt there would > be a lot of loss but what if you run 36 or 48 volt system would that be > less > loss IE get by with smaller wiring? Tom > > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Darren Bos > > wrote: > > > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > > though. Calculations below if you are interested. > > > > As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a > > power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used > > a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For > > low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 > > gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at > > 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would > > need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So > > lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and > > we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be > > use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power > > loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss > > and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of > > the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 > > amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty > > feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the > > wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking > > about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to > > provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. > > > > Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to > > play with the numbers > > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: > > > > >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > > >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > > >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16750|16719|2008-02-26 20:22:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind generators.|On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 04:10:05PM -0800, Darren Bos wrote: > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > though. Calculations below if you are interested. I'm trying to recall whether I used 4ga or 6ga; since I'm not aboard right now, I can't check. I went to Home Despot, spun 60' of good-quality wire off two spools (red and black), took it home and twisted it using a drill and a cuphook. I know that there is some loss due to the diameter, but at the power output rates that I get 99.9% of the time, it's not significant. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16751|16748|2008-02-26 21:08:23|brentswain38|Re: http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG|It doesn't look like one of mine . None of mine have bowsprits. Unless an Auusie built and modified it. I have sent a lot of plans to Aussie. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" wrote: > > Hi Brent: > > Found a Swain or similar origami design on a remote river in Burrun > Coast NP, Queensland, Australia. Picture was during an "East Coast > Low" the rain and TS precluded any further observation or contact: > > http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG > > Spent 2 weeks on 4WD trip trying to find marinas and surf. Found a > deserted point break I called the "Twilight Zone". It broke like > Malibu on steroids. > > http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1150051.JPG > > I'm back in Hawaii (via Jet Star) ready to take my lovely Makena > (BS36) to Molokai. > > VTY, > Heretic_37ft > | 16752|16719|2008-02-26 21:08:46|seeratlas|Re: Wind generators.|I wouldn't put a wind gen on top of the mast, tho the new FASTCAT green catamaran has one mounted up there. Aside from the other arguments already made, with the magnets, current and wire up there I'd be sweating bullets waiting for the lightning strike, which is guaranteed to trash everything at the masthead in a single blow. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Actualy have to add a bit to your calc the 36 footer's mast is around 45 to > 50 foot + the highth above that for wind gen. with the 12 volt there would > be a lot of loss but what if you run 36 or 48 volt system would that be less > loss IE get by with smaller wiring? Tom > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Darren Bos wrote: > > > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > > though. Calculations below if you are interested. > > > > As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a > > power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used > > a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For > > low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 > > gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at > > 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would > > need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So > > lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and > > we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be > > use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power > > loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss > > and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of > > the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 > > amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty > > feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the > > wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking > > about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to > > provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. > > > > Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to > > play with the numbers > > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: > > > > >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > > >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > > >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16753|16719|2008-02-26 21:09:28|brentswain38|Re: Wind generators.|Precisely that ,plus the weight. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 16754|16748|2008-02-26 21:48:09|heretic_37ft|Re: http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG|Hi Brent: Thank you for the reply. The sailboat pictured also has a flush deck which is not part of the plans, I just noticed. It was nice to see a robust steel boat floating on the river however. It definitely stoked me! VTY, H_37_ft --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > It doesn't look like one of mine . None of mine have bowsprits. Unless > an Auusie built and modified it. I have sent a lot of plans to Aussie. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "heretic_37ft" > wrote: > > > > Hi Brent: > > > > Found a Swain or similar origami design on a remote river in Burrun > > Coast NP, Queensland, Australia. Picture was during an "East Coast > > Low" the rain and TS precluded any further observation or contact: > > > > http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1110021.JPG > > > > Spent 2 weeks on 4WD trip trying to find marinas and surf. Found a > > deserted point break I called the "Twilight Zone". It broke like > > Malibu on steroids. > > > > http://www.aeronautek.com/krahenbuhl/2008.02.05-AUS/P1150051.JPG > > > > I'm back in Hawaii (via Jet Star) ready to take my lovely Makena > > (BS36) to Molokai. > > > > VTY, > > Heretic_37ft > > > | 16755|16755|2008-02-26 23:43:01|kingsknight4life|YESSS!!!|Well things are looking up again. We have come to an agreement and have just purchased a 36 ft. bilge keeled hull. We are essentially where we left off before we were ripped off. Some work left to do and then hopefully soon we'll be able to blast, paint and foam. Rowland| 16756|16756|2008-02-27 05:37:43|Matt|"What If" boat|Hi Folks, Longtime lurker Matt here. Is there any more info on the 'net about this boat: http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/images/P6210136.JPG It's on this website under "Brent's Boats" and it seems to be called "What If": http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/different%20boats.html As far as i can tell it's flush-decked, and i've read posts of Brent's talking people out of the idea of going for a flush deck. So, is this a Brent Swain design, or did its builder ignore Brent's advice and modify the design for a flush deck? Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia| 16757|16755|2008-02-27 05:48:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: YESSS!!!|Thats good news Roland. When you wrote to say how your boat had been stolen, we were saddened and thought how we would feel if ours was stolen. Very hard to take especially when the thief was family. Back up and running; good news. Best regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Well things are looking up again. We have come to an agreement and have > just purchased a 36 ft. bilge keeled hull. We are essentially where we > left off before we were ripped off. Some work left to do and then > hopefully soon we'll be able to blast, paint and foam. > Rowland > | 16758|16755|2008-02-27 09:27:04|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] YESSS!!!|Rowland, just one thing to say: CONGRATULATIONS! I am in the process of changing career to my second and retirement career involving helping people achieve what they really want to achieve in life. I certainly have some experiences of my own to build on, but the real guru in this field is Jack M Zufelt. You are confirming his basic premise that when you have identified a core desire in your life, then your conquering force is kicking in and there is no obstacle that you will not find a way to solve. Way to Go! Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kingsknight4life Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] YESSS!!! Well things are looking up again. We have come to an agreement and have just purchased a 36 ft. bilge keeled hull. We are essentially where we left off before we were ripped off. Some work left to do and then hopefully soon we'll be able to blast, paint and foam. Rowland No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1301 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 8:35 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1301 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 8:35 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16759|16756|2008-02-27 11:41:14|Carl Anderson|Re: "What If" boat|Matt, Yes it is a flush deck added to Brent's origami design. The steel work was done by Evan Shaler. I don't know who Evan built the boat for. Brent's reasoning for not doing a flush deck is valid. But in the world of "home-built" steel boats there is a great variation between the designers plans and what really gets made. As an example look at Moonflower of Moab's larger pilothouse. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Matt wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > Longtime lurker Matt here. > Is there any more info on the 'net about this boat: > http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/images/P6210136.JPG > > It's on this website under "Brent's Boats" and it seems to be called > "What If": > http://www.moonflowerofmoab.com/different%20boats.html > > As far as i can tell it's flush-decked, and i've read posts of Brent's > talking people out of the idea of going for a flush deck. So, is this > a Brent Swain design, or did its builder ignore Brent's advice and > modify the design for a flush deck? > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, Australia > > | 16760|16755|2008-02-27 14:11:56|Paul J. Thompson|Re: YESSS!!!|Hi Rowland, That is really great news. We are all rooting for you. You did not say what 36 footer you got. A BS36? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor kingsknight4life wrote: > Well things are looking up again. We have come to an agreement and have > just purchased a 36 ft. bilge keeled hull. We are essentially where we > left off before we were ripped off. Some work left to do and then > hopefully soon we'll be able to blast, paint and foam. > Rowland | 16761|16719|2008-02-27 15:52:15|Paul Wilson|Re: Wind generators.|I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... One comment on the wind generators. I have learned to hate wind generators. In my experience, any wind generator that is any good is also so noisy it will drive me nuts. Even when mounted on another boat. I have seen all different types and the ones that are quiet are usually quiet because they aren't putting anything out. Your choice is either a high pitched, screaming wine or a big bladed, slower speed unit which is hard to mount and makes big wooshing sounds. Either way, I won't live with one any more. They are also usually mounted on a pole on the stern where it casts a shadow on any solar panel you may have and cause it to have almost no output. My solar panels work much better now that I have got rid of my wind generator and moved my radar so they are free and clear to the sun. Solar panels, mounted where they get little or no shadows, are the way to go, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:39:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Wind generators. I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good blow. Regards, Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16762|16707|2008-02-27 15:59:41|Paul Wilson|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|I am curious as to what brands of acrylic paint people may be using on their top-sides. I have had too many problems with epoxies kicking off in the can and being useless when I want to do a touch-up and would like to go back to a single pack paint. Should I use an acrylic or an enamel? I know one guy who was using an acrylic paint on go-cart chassis and said the acrylic was tougher than the epoxies he had used. I know that some of the water-based floor coatings end up being harder than the polyurethanes. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 10:58:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint Works great on the interior but for the exterior of a boat that spends a year or five at a time in the water it would not be my choice for wear and tear. As stated in the US and many parts of the world what the government allows in paint and how well the work changes all the time. What work one day may not work the next or from one area to another. House paint comanys dont change the labels just the contents from area to area depending on restrictions. Buyer be wear. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > I am not suggesting that you throw out epoxies, at least not just yet. > We still need epoxies for the base coats and La Chica has seven coats of > a modified epoxy tar the we have here in NZ on both the inside and the > outside. But two part paint is a pain to use and even more of a pain > when it comes to touching up. And it is very environmentally unfriendly > stuff (unlike some people, I do not think that I have the right to screw > up the environment just because I can afford (money wise) to do so). > > My three years with using water based acrylics have be very positive. > They are easy to put on, easy to touch up and easy on my wallet. The > drying time is two hours between coats, so I can put on three coats in > one day and the job is done. When finished I can wash the brushes off in > water and put them away for next time. > > We live on our boat so the low odour makes them very practical for > interior use (we do not need to move off the boat for a day or two, as > would be the case with oil based or epoxy paints). > > Lastly the paints come in a vast range of colours and you can have > gloss, satin or mat finishes. Two part polyurethanes are only available > (mostly) in high gloss, a terrible choice for a steel boat unless you > have lots of filler (a real waste of both time and money). > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > Deaf Sailor ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16763|16615|2008-02-27 16:28:52|Paul Wilson|Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple?|One variation is that the limiting factor is the biggest boat you can afford with the upper limit being whether you can lift the anchor, run down the deck with it and place it on the anchor roller by yourself. Cheers, Paul From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:24:20 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Is a 30 footer too small for a couple? There is a lot of discussion here about boat length and what is desirable. To me it will likely end up being a discussion about economics when the time comes. I'm not even sure I will go the route of a homebuilt yet, the good thing about these discussions is that I get an idea of how size limits me with respect to traveling. The other problem with size, that is larger deep draft ships, is that such boats might be less than ideal around my area for use before retirement. Dave ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16764|16707|2008-02-27 16:39:35|Paul J. Thompson|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Paul, I am using British Pants - 4 Seasons Exterior - 10 year guarantee against blistering, peeling and flaking. Can says it is 100% water based acrylic. Goes on great with a 5mm mohair roller. touch dry in 30 minutes, overcoat in 2 hours. However I do not think that British paints are anything special, it's just what is available in New Zealand. I think any reputable brand will probably do the trick. I have been using this stuff for three years now, semi-gloss black on the hull and semi-gloss off-white on the topside. There was no off-white available off the shelf so I just went to a home decoration tinting place and got them to tint it for me. The paint is easy to maintain, and is rock hard, yet does not chip when you drop tools and things on it. It does take longer to get to the truly hard state, so I am just careful for the first week or two. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > I am curious as to what brands of acrylic paint people may be using on their top-sides. I have had too many problems with epoxies kicking off in the can and being useless when I want to do a touch-up and would like to go back to a single pack paint. Should I use an acrylic or an enamel? I know one guy who was using an acrylic paint on go-cart chassis and said the acrylic was tougher than the epoxies he had used. I know that some of the water-based floor coatings end up being harder than the polyurethanes. > > Cheers, Paul | 16765|16707|2008-02-27 17:05:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Hi Paul, Do you apply the acrylic straight over the coal tar epoxy? Regards, Ted| 16766|16707|2008-02-27 18:11:34|Paul J. Thompson|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Hi Ted, My epoxy tar is a modified version and has no bleed through. See http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/uploads/AltraTar.pdf If you use a normal epoxy tar, you may need a barrier coat. Check the data sheet that comes with your product. Since my epoxy had already cured, I sanded it (100 grit) and then applied three coats of acrylic with a 5mm mohair roller doing corners etc., with a brush. I am going to try putting the first coat on when the epoxy is just touch dry, as you would do for antifouling and see what happens. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Do you apply the acrylic straight over the coal tar epoxy? > > Regards, > > Ted | 16767|16755|2008-02-27 20:24:43|kingsknight4life|Re: YESSS!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Well things are looking up again. We have come to an agreement and have > just purchased a 36 ft. bilge keeled hull. We are essentially where we > left off before we were ripped off. Some work left to do and then > hopefully soon we'll be able to blast, paint and foam. > Rowland > HI Thanks for the kind words everyone. We ended up buying a hull that we first saw when we went to look at our "original" Brent boat. It is Gene's "old" hull, that Evan originally pulled together. Since that time it has been worked on mostly by Julian and some by Brent. It is rusty, as was our other hull, but the hull and detailing is first rate. Only down side is that it is almost a twin to our stolen hull and when I look at the new hull I still miss the old one. lol Strange? Bonus is she is almost as complete as the last one and some of the work done on it is, how I wished we would've done it ourselves originally. eg.recessed ports If anyone has seen this hull or has talked to Julian perhaps they could answer this question? There are 6 or 8 "circles" running down the cabin top, they are built up of extra steel and are evenly spaced, does anyone know what these might be for? Wish I had a pic to help explain these. Cheers Rowland| 16768|16719|2008-02-28 00:53:57|slade green|Re: Wind generators.|The other thing about the air x is its tendency to backdraft and do 360 spins when there is any pitching motions. Also be prepared, it makes a force 4 sound like a bloody banchy is blowing. I aloso agree with the bigger wire size and be sure you have a 40 amp disconnect for sleeping. Christophe seeratlas wrote: I wouldn't put a wind gen on top of the mast, tho the new FASTCAT green catamaran has one mounted up there. Aside from the other arguments already made, with the magnets, current and wire up there I'd be sweating bullets waiting for the lightning strike, which is guaranteed to trash everything at the masthead in a single blow. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Actualy have to add a bit to your calc the 36 footer's mast is around 45 to > 50 foot + the highth above that for wind gen. with the 12 volt there would > be a lot of loss but what if you run 36 or 48 volt system would that be less > loss IE get by with smaller wiring? Tom > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Darren Bos wrote: > > > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > > though. Calculations below if you are interested. > > > > As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a > > power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used > > a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For > > low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 > > gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at > > 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would > > need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So > > lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and > > we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be > > use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power > > loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss > > and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of > > the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 > > amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty > > feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the > > wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking > > about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to > > provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. > > > > Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to > > play with the numbers > > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: > > > > >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > > >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > > >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16769|16769|2008-02-28 01:09:34|cptcrunch100|The cost of foaming|Can anybody give me an estimate for a 36 or 40 footer to be foamed? Christophe| 16770|16769|2008-02-28 01:30:23|kingsknight4life|Re: The cost of foaming|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > Can anybody give me an estimate for a 36 or 40 footer to be foamed? > > Christophe > I think it varies from place to place. I phoned for a quote yesterday for a 36 foter in Courtenay, still waiting to hear back. Carl may know as his was done recently. Rowland| 16771|16769|2008-02-28 01:38:16|mickeyolaf|Re: The cost of foaming|$2500.00 CDN for foam sprayed to 1.5", carved and sanded flush (for a SW36). Six large green garbage bags of trimmings and sanding dust from excess. Very messy cleanup. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cptcrunch100" wrote: > > Can anybody give me an estimate for a 36 or 40 footer to be foamed? > > Christophe > | 16772|16769|2008-02-28 01:46:06|kingsknight4life|Re: The cost of foaming|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > $2500.00 CDN for foam sprayed to 1.5", carved and sanded flush (for a SW36). Six large > green garbage bags of trimmings and sanding dust from excess. Very messy cleanup. > > > > Mickey, Who did your foaming and where was the boat when it was being done? Rowland PS. Are you in the water yet, if not you must be darn close?| 16773|16769|2008-02-28 02:58:59|Paul J. Thompson|Re: The cost of foaming|Did the $2500.00 include the fairing (carving) and sanding flush? Or did you have to do it? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor mickeyolaf wrote: > $2500.00 CDN for foam sprayed to 1.5", carved and sanded flush (for a SW36). Six large > green garbage bags of trimmings and sanding dust from excess. Very messy cleanup. | 16774|16756|2008-02-28 09:08:22|Matt|Re: "What If" boat|Thanks Carl, I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on Moonflower's website. Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather than boat building. In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my work. I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, i'm just not sure what i did with it!). Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as well as the cruising? Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: http://www.yago-project.com/content/view/72/66/lang,en/ Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to keep me cruising indefiniteley. Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% finished project and take it from there. In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be working... Cheers, Matt| 16775|16775|2008-02-28 11:52:03|mr_lugnuts_2007|brent swain 26|Hi, I'm thinking of building a BS 26. Does anyone on the forum have experience sailing one? How does she handle? Comments/criticisms? Thx in advance Lugnuts| 16776|16756|2008-02-28 19:39:53|seeratlas|Re: "What If" boat|You might search the used boat market. I recently found several astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Thanks Carl, > I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on > Moonflower's website. > Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. > I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time > i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime > cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather > than boat building. > In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time > that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my work. > I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less > full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, > i'm just not sure what i did with it!). > Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the > point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as > well as the cruising? > Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: > http://www.yago-project.com/content/view/72/66/lang,en/ > Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then > just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the > best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to > keep me cruising indefiniteley. > Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% > finished project and take it from there. > In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be > working... > Cheers, > Matt > | 16777|16769|2008-02-28 19:53:23|kingsknight4life|Re: The cost of foaming|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Did the $2500.00 include the fairing (carving) and sanding flush? Or did > you have to do it? > >Paul Everyone that I talked to has had to trim back their own foam or hire someone to. I haven't heard of the foamer ever doing it, especially since they seem o be busy. Rowland| 16778|16769|2008-02-28 22:51:20|theboilerflue|Re: The cost of foaming|Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming I believe he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > $2500.00 CDN for foam sprayed to 1.5", carved and sanded flush (for a > SW36). Six large > > green garbage bags of trimmings and sanding dust from excess. Very > messy cleanup. > > > > > > > > Mickey, > Who did your foaming and where was the boat when it was being done? > Rowland > > PS. Are you in the water yet, if not you must be darn close? > | 16779|16769|2008-02-28 23:15:30|Claude|Re: The cost of foaming|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming. > he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this > is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area > is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? > A BS-36 should have about 700 square Feet of plates to foam. That X 1.25 (per square foot) = $875.00 The material alone is more than that. Claude| 16780|16780|2008-02-28 23:51:17|cptcrunch100|will foam stick to all interior hull coatings|Mainly I guess I'm talking a sprayed two part epoxy. I've been apart of the process with aluminum but it was aplied to bare aluminum.Presently my boat is corked but the insulative properties of foaming are superier. Christophe Ps Has anybody used any foamers out of shelter Island on the mainland| 16781|16769|2008-02-29 09:01:08|Carl Anderson|Re: The cost of foaming|We at Moonflower of Moab were going to foam our own boat. After I talked to the guy who sold the tools and the foam and he said, "WHY WOULD YOU DO IT YOURSELF"???? Roy at Independent shipwright's of Coombs, Vic Is. BC bid ours at 3500$. Ended up he didn't have all the foam he'd planned on & it cost less. He did an excellent job. I had about 10 days of trimming and painting to do after that. Took Roy about 5 hours. I would not have someone who had never done it, do it. You'll get shoddy work because it's such a weird insulation job to begin with. You need someone who is used to crawling around inside a boat. It's not a "square foot" thing. Hi Claude! Thanks for helping us with the tabs! We love you! Kate [n' Carl] MoonflowerofMoab.com Claude wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming. > > he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this > > is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area > > is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? > > > A BS-36 should have about 700 square Feet of plates to foam. > That X 1.25 (per square foot) = $875.00 > The material alone is more than that. > Claude > > | 16782|16769|2008-02-29 09:15:35|Carl Anderson|masthead wiring|Next on our agenda is getting the mast together so I'm figuring out the wiring now. I was planning on running four 10 gauge conductors plus one 8 gauge (for the ground) to accommodate any electrical needs. Also one run of RG213 for the VHF antenna. Question is can anyone think of any other wiring needed at the top? thanks, Carl| 16783|16769|2008-02-29 10:19:40|Knut F Garshol|Re: [SPAM][origamiboats] masthead wiring|Carl, what comes to mind are: - wind instrument - anchor light - deck light for working - radar in the mast? - steaming light - may be you want a tri-color at mast head? - video camera? - one reserve for whatever later use - couple of draw-strings for later extra cables That�s about it :-)) Knut _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:16 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SPAM][origamiboats] masthead wiring Next on our agenda is getting the mast together so I'm figuring out the wiring now. I was planning on running four 10 gauge conductors plus one 8 gauge (for the ground) to accommodate any electrical needs. Also one run of RG213 for the VHF antenna. Question is can anyone think of any other wiring needed at the top? thanks, Carl No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1304 - Release Date: 2/29/2008 8:18 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1304 - Release Date: 2/29/2008 8:18 AM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16784|16769|2008-02-29 12:55:58|mickeyolaf|Re: The cost of foaming|Two guys from Powell River sprayed mine. They came over twice to the boat as they missed one section under the deck. It was two years ago. Their names escape me but I can get them for u. They carved the overspray. An apprentice sanded the excess down. The dust was something else. I cleaned up. My total cost was $2500 finished. The boat was in Courtenay. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > $2500.00 CDN for foam sprayed to 1.5", carved and sanded flush (for a > SW36). Six large > > green garbage bags of trimmings and sanding dust from excess. Very > messy cleanup. > > > > > > > > Mickey, > Who did your foaming and where was the boat when it was being done? > Rowland > > PS. Are you in the water yet, if not you must be darn close? > | 16785|16769|2008-02-29 13:13:47|theboilerflue|Re: The cost of foaming|well this guy charges by the board foot 12"x 12"x 1" so for two inches on everything it'd be twice that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming. > > he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this > > is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area > > is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? > > > A BS-36 should have about 700 square Feet of plates to foam. > That X 1.25 (per square foot) = $875.00 > The material alone is more than that. > Claude > | 16786|16769|2008-02-29 13:38:41|Ben Okopnik|Re: masthead wiring|On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 07:15:31AM -0700, Carl Anderson wrote: > Next on our agenda is getting the mast together so I'm figuring out the > wiring now. > > I was planning on running four 10 gauge conductors plus one 8 gauge (for > the ground) to accommodate any electrical needs. Also one run of RG213 > for the VHF antenna. > > Question is can anyone think of any other wiring needed at the top? Good job on picking the low-loss coax (RG213), Carl. I've always had good luck with it - at least as long as I soldered the connections at the BNC plugs instead of trusting the mechanical crimping and used dielectric grease to seal the plugs. You seem to have taken care of, e.g., a masthead tricolor, a steaming light, an anchor light, and deck lights - but if you were planning on using all of the above, I'd recommend having a spare. That way, a broken wire just means a quick trip to the masthead instead of having to pull a cable right then. Also, given my experience in running alarm wire and Ethernet cabling in houses, I'd pull some 100-lb. fishing line along with the wire bundle and leave any zip-strips you use a little loose. That way, if you ever need to pull an additional wire, this makes it really easy (just pull another stretch of 100-lb. test along with the new wire.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16787|16769|2008-02-29 13:58:48|mauro gonzaga|Re: The cost of foaming|I have seen pics of foaming procedure: Frankly I am horrified with all that foam which shall be removed to the level afterwars. Couldn't foaming be made in sections? I mean by putting a board parallel to the shell against the wood sticks which establish the thickness of the foam and are the base to fix panelling and then insert the oam spray nozzle in the chamber between board and shell. Once the board is removed there will be very little or no fairing of the foam to be done. Piece by piece it should be possible to foam all the hull. Mauro theboilerflue wrote: well this guy charges by the board foot 12"x 12"x 1" so for two inches on everything it'd be twice that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming. > > he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this > > is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area > > is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? > > > A BS-36 should have about 700 square Feet of plates to foam. > That X 1.25 (per square foot) = $875.00 > The material alone is more than that. > Claude > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16788|16788|2008-02-29 14:18:31|Eli Madden|Trailerable plans?|Could someone point me to some trailerable origami plans? I live about 15 miles from Lake Champlain, so if I can build it at home, then truck it to the lake it would make things a lot easier. Thanks Eli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16789|16719|2008-02-29 17:45:43|mickeyolaf|Re: Wind generators.|I wonder if an ex wife riding a stationary bike in the cockpit hooked to a generator would be quieter? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > One comment on the wind generators. > > I have learned to hate wind generators. In my experience, any wind generator that is any good is also so noisy it will drive me nuts. Even when mounted on another boat. I have seen all different types and the ones that are quiet are usually quiet because they aren't putting anything out. Your choice is either a high pitched, screaming wine or a big bladed, slower speed unit which is hard to mount and makes big wooshing sounds. Either way, I won't live with one any more. They are also usually mounted on a pole on the stern where it casts a shadow on any solar panel you may have and cause it to have almost no output. My solar panels work much better now that I have got rid of my wind generator and moved my radar so they are free and clear to the sun. > > Solar panels, mounted where they get little or no shadows, are the way to go, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:39:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Wind generators. > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > blow. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/ category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16790|16756|2008-02-29 18:18:00|Paul Wilson|Re: "What If" boat|I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for economic reasons. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat You might search the used boat market. I recently found several astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: > > Thanks Carl, > I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on > Moonflower's website. > Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. > I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time > i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime > cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather > than boat building. > In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time > that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my work. > I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less > full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, > i'm just not sure what i did with it!). > Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the > point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as > well as the cruising? > Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: > http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ > Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then > just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the > best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to > keep me cruising indefiniteley. > Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% > finished project and take it from there. > In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be > working... > Cheers, > Matt > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16791|16707|2008-02-29 18:23:22|Paul Wilson|Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint|Thanks Paul. ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:39:33 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: All about painting boats with acrylic paint Paul, I am using British Pants - 4 Seasons Exterior - 10 year guarantee against blistering, peeling and flaking. Can says it is 100% water based acrylic. Goes on great with a 5mm mohair roller. touch dry in 30 minutes, overcoat in 2 hours. However I do not think that British paints are anything special, it's just what is available in New Zealand. I think any reputable brand will probably do the trick. I have been using this stuff for three years now, semi-gloss black on the hull and semi-gloss off-white on the topside. There was no off-white available off the shelf so I just went to a home decoration tinting place and got them to tint it for me. The paint is easy to maintain, and is rock hard, yet does not chip when you drop tools and things on it. It does take longer to get to the truly hard state, so I am just careful for the first week or two. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Paul Wilson wrote: > I am curious as to what brands of acrylic paint people may be using on their top-sides. I have had too many problems with epoxies kicking off in the can and being useless when I want to do a touch-up and would like to go back to a single pack paint. Should I use an acrylic or an enamel? I know one guy who was using an acrylic paint on go-cart chassis and said the acrylic was tougher than the epoxies he had used. I know that some of the water-based floor coatings end up being harder than the polyurethanes. > > Cheers, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16792|16719|2008-02-29 18:53:24|James Pronk|Re: Wind generators.|Yes, it would be, if she was in someone elses boat! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I wonder if an ex wife riding a stationary bike in the cockpit hooked to a generator would > be quieter? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I have been away for awhile and trying to catch up..... > > > > One comment on the wind generators. > > > > I have learned to hate wind generators. In my experience, any wind generator that is > any good is also so noisy it will drive me nuts. Even when mounted on another boat. I > have seen all different types and the ones that are quiet are usually quiet because they > aren't putting anything out. Your choice is either a high pitched, screaming wine or a big > bladed, slower speed unit which is hard to mount and makes big wooshing sounds. Either > way, I won't live with one any more. They are also usually mounted on a pole on the stern > where it casts a shadow on any solar panel you may have and cause it to have almost no > output. My solar panels work much better now that I have got rid of my wind generator > and moved my radar so they are free and clear to the sun. > > > > Solar panels, mounted where they get little or no shadows, are the way to go, in my > opinion. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: edward_stoneuk > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:39:59 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Wind generators. > > > > I have been thinking of a wind generator. How does one reef them to > > stop them over speeding in a gale or storm? Are there any views on the > > best make? I was thinking that one mounted at the mast head would get > > the best wind but would be difficult to impossible to control in a good > > blow. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/ > category.php?category=shopping > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16793|16756|2008-02-29 19:49:29|martin demers|Re: "What If" boat|you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are fiberglass! Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: opuspaul@... > Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for economic reasons. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: seeratlas> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > You might search the used boat market. I recently found several > astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully > rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. > Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats > can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take > him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., > then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. > > I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple > of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram > motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp > gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. > > In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you > can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something > darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: >> >> Thanks Carl, >> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on >> Moonflower's website. >> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. >> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time >> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime >> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather >> than boat building. >> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time >> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my work. >> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less >> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, >> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). >> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the >> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as >> well as the cruising? >> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: >> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ >> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then >> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the >> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to >> keep me cruising indefiniteley. >> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% >> finished project and take it from there. >> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be >> working... >> Cheers, >> Matt >> > > __________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16794|16769|2008-02-29 21:32:22|audeojude|Re: The cost of foaming|They usually mean per one inch thick board foot. so if you want foam 1.5 inches thick then it will be 50% more expensive. or double the cost for 2 inches thick.... If you buy the raw materials this is how the manufactures and middle men sell it. by the board foot in 1 inch thick increments or by the cubic foot.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "theboilerflue" wrote: > > > > Rowland I do know of one guy in the valley who does foaming. > > he charges 1.25 a board foot (or was it a 1.10) I don't know if this > > is a good price or not I havent worked it out. How much surface area > > is there on a 36' for painting and foaming anyone know? > > > A BS-36 should have about 700 square Feet of plates to foam. > That X 1.25 (per square foot) = $875.00 > The material alone is more than that. > Claude > | 16795|16769|2008-02-29 21:40:26|kingsknight4life|Re: The cost of foaming|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > They usually mean per one inch thick board foot. so if you want foam > 1.5 inches thick then it will be 50% more expensive. or double the > cost for 2 inches thick.... If you buy the raw materials this is how > the manufactures and middle men sell it. by the board foot in 1 inch > thick increments or by the cubic foot.. > So... Does anybody kmow how many board feet a Swain 36 needs? Or better yet the square footage of the area needed to be foamed, since the actual board footage used depends on the thickness desired, as Scott said. Rowland| 16796|16769|2008-03-01 06:01:10|Wally Paine|Re: Origami boat of another sort|I read an article once by an Australian in which he described the following: He used steel mesh with a mesh size of 4"X4". I forget the wire thickness but I think it was 1/8". He welded and cut this into one piece and pulled it together origami style to make his hull shape. He fitted out the interior including 100% panelling. Then foamed from the outside the space between the mesh and the panels. The interior panels prevent the boat from filling with foam. Then trimmed the foam flush with the mesh. Then laid GRP over the foam. At the time of writing his boat was 13 years old. I think in the region of 30ft long. I have long since lost the article and have no further details. Has anyone heard of this method being used? Any comments? Wally Paine --- kingsknight4life wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > wrote: > > > > They usually mean per one inch thick board foot. > so if you want foam > > 1.5 inches thick then it will be 50% more > expensive. or double the > > cost for 2 inches thick.... If you buy the raw > materials this is how > > the manufactures and middle men sell it. by the > board foot in 1 inch > > thick increments or by the cubic foot.. > > > So... > Does anybody kmow how many board feet a Swain 36 > needs? Or better yet > the square footage of the area needed to be foamed, > since the actual > board footage used depends on the thickness desired, > as Scott said. > Rowland > > | 16797|16769|2008-03-01 10:45:28|David A. Frantz|Re: Origami boat of another sort|Wally this is the first I've heard of this method. It is not far from building a fiber glass boat upside down where the form is covered with foam sheeting first and then fiberglassed over. I do see a disadvantage or two. One would be that this method would provide no benefit from fiberglassing both sides of the foam panels that you get in a conventional boat built with GRP on both sides of the foam. I would imaging that this could be overcome with a thicker than normal hull. In my estimation you would also loose a lot of strength from the lack of tie ins to the fiberglass hull. That is the various bulkheads and other structures within the hull would not be tied directly to the fiber glass hull. This strikes me as a serious issue no matter how heavy you make the hull. Lastly this would be an indoors only build In some ways I do see positive aspects to this sort of construction. If you got the skill you can form the outside of the hull to any shape you can imagine. You could also end up forming a hull that isn't at all useful. The thought just came to me that this would be a very good way to build a smaller boat such as a dingy or bass boat if the inner pan was also made out of fiber glass. That is mold the interior pan first, turn it upside down and then spray your foam on the outside, fair the foam and then fiberglass. In fact I kinda like this idea and would be very interesting if you could automate the trimming of the foam on the outside of the hull. Still this is an indoors only construction method from what I can see. When thinking about this, with respect to a larger boat though, I'm not convinced that it would be easier than any other method. I"m just not sure the approach would save you any effort over building the hull first. Construction of the interior first would be quicker, I imagine but the hull forming slower and I'd still be concerned about tying in the hull to the interior. Dave Wally Paine wrote: > > I read an article once by an Australian in which he > described the following: > > He used steel mesh with a mesh size of 4"X4". I forget > the wire thickness but I think it was 1/8". He welded > and cut this into one piece and pulled it together > origami style to make his hull shape. > > He fitted out the interior including 100% panelling. > Then foamed from the outside the space between the > mesh and the panels. The interior panels prevent the > boat from filling with foam. Then trimmed the foam > flush with the mesh. Then laid GRP over the foam. > > At the time of writing his boat was 13 years old. I > think in the region of 30ft long. > > I have long since lost the article and have no further > details. > > Has anyone heard of this method being used? Any > comments? > > Wally Paine > > --- kingsknight4life > wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "audeojude" > > wrote: > > > > > > They usually mean per one inch thick board foot. > > so if you want foam > > > 1.5 inches thick then it will be 50% more > > expensive. or double the > > > cost for 2 inches thick.... If you buy the raw > > materials this is how > > > the manufactures and middle men sell it. by the > > board foot in 1 inch > > > thick increments or by the cubic foot.. > > > > > So... > > Does anybody kmow how many board feet a Swain 36 > > needs? Or better yet > > the square footage of the area needed to be foamed, > > since the actual > > board footage used depends on the thickness desired, > > as Scott said. > > Rowland > > > > > > | 16798|16798|2008-03-01 12:16:41|James|Fwd: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat of another sort|---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: James Date: Mar 1, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boat of another sort To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Wally , I think if I were to go this route , esp. here in wet Scotland , I`d be tempted to lay an initial thin skin of GRP inside the mesh , to key to the outer layers and encapsulate the mesh. Intersting idea , though , which I`d not heard of before , and certainly an improvement on ferro ( a mate has just , 2006 , finished his ferro 46 ` and would still be living aboard here had a large , c. 1 metre , patch not fallen off in rough weather at the pontoon ! ) Jim On 3/1/08, Wally Paine wrote: > > I read an article once by an Australian in which he > described the following: > > He used steel mesh with a mesh size of 4"X4". I forget > the wire thickness but I think it was 1/8". He welded > and cut this into one piece and pulled it together > origami style to make his hull shape. > > He fitted out the interior including 100% panelling. > Then foamed from the outside the space between the > mesh and the panels. The interior panels prevent the > boat from filling with foam. Then trimmed the foam > flush with the mesh. Then laid GRP over the foam. > > At the time of writing his boat was 13 years old. I > think in the region of 30ft long. > > I have long since lost the article and have no further > details. > > Has anyone heard of this method being used? Any > comments? > > Wally Paine > > --- kingsknight4life wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > wrote: > > > > > > They usually mean per one inch thick board foot. > > so if you want foam > > > 1.5 inches thick then it will be 50% more > > expensive. or double the > > > cost for 2 inches thick.... If you buy the raw > > materials this is how > > > the manufactures and middle men sell it. by the > > board foot in 1 inch > > > thick increments or by the cubic foot.. > > > > > So... > > Does anybody kmow how many board feet a Swain 36 > > needs? Or better yet > > the square footage of the area needed to be foamed, > > since the actual > > board footage used depends on the thickness desired, > > as Scott said. > > Rowland > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16799|16799|2008-03-01 13:51:35|evanmoonjunk|30' for sale|Due to health reasons Tony is putting his 30' up for sale. I started this boat for Tony about 15 years ago and has been in the water for about 12 years. It is based on Brent's 31' shortened to 30' as at the time Tony thought he migh ship it on a freighter to europe to cruise the canals. This boat has a flush deck, twin keels, outboard well with outboard(no inboard) and a hard dodger. It is basically ready to go, according to Tony needs some work and tlc. It is moored at Stones marina, Nanaimo, Vancouver island, B. C. Canada. Asking price is $25,000 but as Tony wants to sell it by the middle of april, there will be room to move on this. Moorage is paid up till the summer. Tony's phone number is 250-616-7848 The email I have for him is bbjansky@... This is a good opportunity for someone...Evan| 16800|16800|2008-03-01 15:30:27|Michael Crumpton|Metal Origami Dinghy?|I saw some pics of a Metal Origami Dinghy in the photos section. Is there any other info about it? It seems like a nice way to get your toes wet in the technique. thanks, Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16801|16769|2008-03-01 17:27:52|kingsknight4life|Re: Origami boat of another sort|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > I read an article once by an Australian in which he > described the following: > > He used steel mesh with a mesh size of 4"X4". I forget > the wire thickness but I think it was 1/8". He welded > and cut this into one piece and pulled it together > origami style to make his hull shape. > > He fitted out the interior including 100% panelling. > Then foamed from the outside the space between the > mesh and the panels. The interior panels prevent the > boat from filling with foam. Then trimmed the foam > flush with the mesh. Then laid GRP over the foam. > > At the time of writing his boat was 13 years old. I > think in the region of 30ft long. > > I have long since lost the article and have no further > details. > > Has anyone heard of this method being used? Any > comments? > > Wally Paine > > LOlI happened to stumble across that site lasat night. It kinda lookslike ferrocement technique but with foam instead. It doesn't look strong to me though? I'll stick to folded steel. Rowland| 16802|16769|2008-03-01 23:36:06|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: masthead wiring|Carl, Perhaps a bit of conduit to run wiring for a potential future radar.. or wind charger? Shane Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php| 16803|16803|2008-03-02 00:34:57|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Wind Generator|Ted, Wouldnt it be really realy lowd with vibro's if mounted on top of the mast? Re the voltage drop from wind gen. all gerators/alternators produce AC current and need to be rectified to DC current. Right? And the diodes for rectifying the current from AC to DC are mounted on the alternator. Right? So the "output" we "expect" to recieving from an alternator is DC current, but it's really just recified from it's origonal AC. Soooo, why not remove the diodes from the alternator, run the AC current from the alternator down the mast (losing much less current as its AC at pretty high voltage- isn't it?) to a point near the battery bank & fuse box and mount the diode pack there so you then recieve DC current where you need it and save on the transmission losses as well as being able to use much lighter guage wire up the mast. Would there be any issues running AC current down the stick? espcially if it was alloy... good conductor & all, bit of salt water in the air as the wind's up..... something goes wrong, gotta hike the stick, wind gen is howling away & there is a wire that has chafed inside the spar that you are blissfully unawar of until you grab the mast & get zap'd because your wearing running shoes - wet - cuz you were heading up the mast. Would this work?? We are looking at putting a few fans on our property to charge the backup system for the house and I'm thinking of doing it this way, but this is ashore whitch makes it safer as I can just walk away However, I'm not an electrical guru and need confirmation on this, so please chime in lads. Cheers, Shane Re: Wind generators. Posted by: "slade green" cptcrunch100@... cptcrunch100 Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:53 pm (PST) The other thing about the air x is its tendency to backdraft and do 360 spins when there is any pitching motions. Also be prepared, it makes a force 4 sound like a bloody banchy is blowing. I aloso agree with the bigger wire size and be sure you have a 40 amp disconnect for sleeping. Christophe seeratlas wrote: I wouldn't put a wind gen on top of the mast, tho the new FASTCAT green catamaran has one mounted up there. Aside from the other arguments already made, with the magnets, current and wire up there I'd be sweating bullets waiting for the lightning strike, which is guaranteed to trash everything at the masthead in a single blow. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mann" wrote: > > Actualy have to add a bit to your calc the 36 footer's mast is around 45 to > 50 foot + the highth above that for wind gen. with the 12 volt there would > be a lot of loss but what if you run 36 or 48 volt system would that be less > loss IE get by with smaller wiring? Tom > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Darren Bos wrote: > > > I was curious about the weight of wire you would end up adding to the > > mast with the generator on top and did some back of the envelope > > calculations. Turns out it wouldn't be that bad. even with 8 gauge > > wire and a 35 foot mast you only add about 4 or 5 lbs. You do end up > > with fairly high power losses (16%) at higher currents > > though. Calculations below if you are interested. > > > > As a general rule of thumb it is nice to keep your voltage drop on a > > power application to under 5%. As an estimate for wire length I used > > a 35ft mast plus 15 feet from the mast base to the batteries. For > > low currents, like 5 amps, this would mean you would need to use 10 > > gauge wire. However, the AirX supposedly puts out roughly 30amps at > > 12V in 30 knots of wind. In order to meet the 5% rule here you would > > need to use two or three gauge wire!!!!! Yes, welding cable. So > > lets say we don't want a voltage drop greater than 5% at 5 amps, and > > we don't want to start any fires at 30 amps, the compromise might be > > use 10 gauge wire. At 30 amps this will result in a 26% power > > loss. If it were me I would want 8 gauge wire to limit current loss > > and provide a little more safety in terms of the ampacity rating of > > the wire. Eight gauge wire still gives a 16% power loss at 30 > > amps. Bare eight gauge copper wire weighs one pound for every twenty > > feet. One note is that I chose the maximum current capacity of the > > wire based on the wire having some airflow to cool it. Thinking > > about it more, it might be necessary to go up further in size to > > provide a better safety factor so the wire doesn't melt in the mast. > > > > Here is a link to a website with a handy calculator if you want to > > play with the numbers > > http://www.powerstr eam.com/Wire_ Size.htm > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 01:51 PM 26/02/2008, you wrote: > > > > >Thanks to every one for their windgenerator input. What do you think > > >would be the downside, apart from getting it there and access for > > >maintenance, of putting an Air-X on the top of the mast? > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Ted > > > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 16804|16756|2008-03-02 07:34:14|seeratlas|Re: "What If" boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are fiberglass! > > Martin Martin, this is surely true, however, not all fibre boats are Hunters :) The issue is, are they strong 'enough'...For example, take a peek at this site where Hurricane Andrew tried to tear up this Bertram (btw, add a six foot cockpit on the back and that boat looks very much like the one I just bought, better "location" on mine tho LOL) http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/BertramYacht.htm As the author notes, damage was minor and the boat promptly returned to service. The site might be good reading for anyone looking at used boats. Fellow is a well known and experienced surveyor, and while not dealing with sail type boats, his remarks regarding construction, engines etc. are worth a read. In any event, for my intended purpose, which will NOT entail crashing thru pilings, pounding thru a sea wall and someone's house/restaurant etc., my use instead being a river/intracoastal liveaboard, the bertie suits my needs admirably, and what I paid would just about cover an overhaul on one of the motors.....neither of which needs one fortunately, with only 1100 low speed hours. There are some serious deals out there, in both fibreglass AND steel, of which I can now personally attest. Bottom line, I now own just under 100ft of complete, running, and VERY nice seaworthy boats, for less than 400.00 a foot...and that's in US 'Pesos"...:) They would salvage for far more than that... and yes, they are not *exactly* what I wanted, but they are damned close :) seer ______________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: opuspaul@... > > Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > > > > I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for economic reasons. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: seeratlas> > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > > You might search the used boat market. I recently found several > > astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully > > rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. > > Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats > > can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take > > him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., > > then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. > > > > I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple > > of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram > > motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp > > gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. > > > > In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you > > can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something > > darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: > >> > >> Thanks Carl, > >> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on > >> Moonflower's website. > >> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. > >> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time > >> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime > >> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather > >> than boat building. > >> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time > >> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my work. > >> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less > >> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, > >> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). > >> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the > >> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as > >> well as the cruising? > >> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: > >> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ > >> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then > >> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the > >> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to > >> keep me cruising indefiniteley. > >> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% > >> finished project and take it from there. > >> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be > >> working... > >> Cheers, > >> Matt > >> > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16805|16756|2008-03-02 08:04:46|martin demers|Re: "What If" boat|Hi Seer, In wich direction goes your comparison to Hunter's, do they have a good or a bad reputation? I saw one that needs repair for a good price. Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: seeratlas@... > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:34:12 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: >> >> >> you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what > you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are > fiberglass! >> >> Martin > > Martin, this is surely true, however, not all fibre boats are Hunters > :) The issue is, are they strong 'enough'...For example, take a peek > at this site where Hurricane Andrew tried to tear up this Bertram > (btw, add a six foot cockpit on the back and that boat looks very much > like the one I just bought, better "location" on mine tho LOL) > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/BertramYacht.htm > > As the author notes, damage was minor and the boat promptly returned > to service. The site might be good reading for anyone looking at > used boats. Fellow is a well known and experienced surveyor, and while > not dealing with sail type boats, his remarks regarding construction, > engines etc. are worth a read. > > In any event, for my intended purpose, which will NOT entail crashing > thru pilings, pounding thru a sea wall and someone's house/restaurant > etc., my use instead being a river/intracoastal liveaboard, the > bertie suits my needs admirably, and what I paid would just about > cover an overhaul on one of the motors.....neither of which needs one > fortunately, with only 1100 low speed hours. > > There are some serious deals out there, in both fibreglass AND steel, > of which I can now personally attest. > > Bottom line, I now own just under 100ft of complete, running, and VERY > nice seaworthy boats, for less than 400.00 a foot...and that's in US > 'Pesos"...:) > > They would salvage for far more than that... > > and yes, they are not *exactly* what I wanted, but they are damned > close :) > > seer > > ______________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: opuspaul@... >>> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat >>> >>> >>> I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on > the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one > should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. > Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge > amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for > economic reasons. >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: seeratlas> >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat >>> >>> You might search the used boat market. I recently found several >>> astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully >>> rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. >>> Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats >>> can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take >>> him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., >>> then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. >>> >>> I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple >>> of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram >>> motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp >>> gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. >>> >>> In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you >>> can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something >>> darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. >>> >>> seer >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Carl, >>>> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on >>>> Moonflower's website. >>>> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. >>>> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time >>>> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime >>>> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather >>>> than boat building. >>>> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time >>>> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my > work. >>>> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less >>>> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, >>>> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). >>>> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the >>>> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as >>>> well as the cruising? >>>> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: >>>> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ >>>> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then >>>> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the >>>> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to >>>> keep me cruising indefiniteley. >>>> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% >>>> finished project and take it from there. >>>> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be >>>> working... >>>> Cheers, >>>> Matt >>>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? >>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16806|16803|2008-03-02 09:32:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 12:34:55AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Ted, > > Re the voltage drop from wind gen. all > gerators/alternators produce AC current and need to be > rectified to DC current. Right? There are a lot of technical variables involved, but the upshot is "no". > And the diodes for rectifying the current from AC to > DC are mounted on the alternator. Right? Usually, they're built into the wind gen. > Soooo, why not remove the diodes from the alternator, > run the AC current from the alternator down the mast > (losing much less current as its AC at pretty high > voltage- isn't it?) Nope. Actually, the DC voltage after rectification is somewhat higher than the incoming AC due to the conversion (AC voltage isn't measured the same way as DC unless you have a "true RMS" meter) and the capacitive multiplication effect (pretty much all loads have at least some capacitance). E.g., the output of a 6.3VAC transformer, when rectified and stabilized with a 1000uF capacitor will put out about 8VDC. > to a point near the battery bank & > fuse box and mount the diode pack there so you then > recieve DC current where you need it and save on the > transmission losses as well as being able to use much > lighter guage wire up the mast. That is certainly the idea in the long-distance, "high-tension" lines - but the trick there is that a) they're run high up, where most of us can't get to them and b) there's a down-conversion transformer wherever they rejoin the real world. In theory, there's nothing stopping you from having a 10kV AC generator on top of your mast - and you're right, your losses would be negligible even if you ran 24 gauge wire - but downconverting it would be a royal bitch, accidentally touching the line would kill you. On the other hand, you'd never have to pay for fireworks again: just throw a little salt water onto the contacts... :) In short, high voltage is wonderful in every way - except that it kills us humans. That's what sucks about the practical uses of electricity. 110VAC is a compromise between "low enough not to kill in the majority of cases" and "high enough to get some of the benefits." The countries that run 220VAC are a little less cautious and a little more hungry for those benefits - at an obvious cost. > Would there be any issues running AC current down the > stick? Yep. Coupling - i.e., voltage being magnetically induced into any wires that run parallel to those - would be a problem, especially in any antenna leads. Even if you didn't have antennas there, you'd be sending a bit of AC into your DC system if _any_ of your conductors ran parallel to it. There are also possible magnified corrosion effects - wherever galvanic action can happen, coupling AC into that area will make it happen faster. In short (why did I say "short"? :), it's not a good idea overall.In general, AC systems on board should be completely isolated from the DC side, and the runs should be kept as short as possible. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16807|16803|2008-03-02 09:57:20|sae140|Re: Wind Generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Ted, > > Wouldnt it be really realy lowd with vibro's if > mounted on top of the mast? > > Re the voltage drop from wind gen. all > gerators/alternators produce AC current and need to be > rectified to DC current. Right? > > And the diodes for rectifying the current from AC to > DC are mounted on the alternator. Right? So the > "output" we "expect" to recieving from an alternator > is DC current, but it's really just recified from it's > origonal AC. > > Soooo, why not remove the diodes from the alternator, > run the AC current from the alternator down the mast > (losing much less current as its AC at pretty high > voltage- isn't it?) to a point near the battery bank & > fuse box and mount the diode pack there so you then > recieve DC current where you need it and save on the > transmission losses as well as being able to use much > lighter guage wire up the mast. > > Would there be any issues running AC current down the > stick? espcially if it was alloy... good conductor & > all, bit of salt water in the air as the wind's > up..... something goes wrong, gotta hike the stick, > wind gen is howling away & there is a wire that has > chafed inside the spar that you are blissfully unawar > of until you grab the mast & get zap'd because your > wearing running shoes - wet - cuz you were heading up > the mast. > > Would this work?? > > We are looking at putting a few fans on our property > to charge the backup system for the house and I'm > thinking of doing it this way, but this is ashore > whitch makes it safer as I can just walk away > > However, I'm not an electrical guru and need > confirmation on this, so please chime in lads. > > Cheers, > Shane > Chime .... Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. Which is a pity - 'cause it's a neat idea which *would* work if you were talking seriously high voltages (which is how mains electricity is carried long distances across country). Another factor which mediates against the idea of remote diodes & regulator is that *most* (although not all) wind generators produce 3-phase AC which would require more cables to be run down the mast than with DC. Provided the mast is grounded, from a safety point-of-view it doesn't matter much what happens inside - even if a live wire were to make contact with the mast, you'd be quite safe climbing up the outside of the mast, even in bare feet, let alone running shoes. I'd strongly suggest sticking with a 2 wire (live and return) system, as using the mast as one conductor is fraught with potential electrolysis problems. Then there's the over-revving stuff to consider - all-in-all I think Brent's method of mounting the genny much lower down and physically turn the genny & lassoo the blades is the simplest approach. 'best, Colin| 16808|16803|2008-03-02 10:07:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's why we have AC in our homes. Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and cons) is what we got. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16809|16803|2008-03-02 14:19:52|cptcrunch100|Re: Wind Generator|Hey this brings up a whole new point. If you do live welding in the water where does all of that current go? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Ted, > > > > Wouldnt it be really realy lowd with vibro's if > > mounted on top of the mast? > > > > Re the voltage drop from wind gen. all > > gerators/alternators produce AC current and need to be > > rectified to DC current. Right? > > > > And the diodes for rectifying the current from AC to > > DC are mounted on the alternator. Right? So the > > "output" we "expect" to recieving from an alternator > > is DC current, but it's really just recified from it's > > origonal AC. > > > > Soooo, why not remove the diodes from the alternator, > > run the AC current from the alternator down the mast > > (losing much less current as its AC at pretty high > > voltage- isn't it?) to a point near the battery bank & > > fuse box and mount the diode pack there so you then > > recieve DC current where you need it and save on the > > transmission losses as well as being able to use much > > lighter guage wire up the mast. > > > > Would there be any issues running AC current down the > > stick? espcially if it was alloy... good conductor & > > all, bit of salt water in the air as the wind's > > up..... something goes wrong, gotta hike the stick, > > wind gen is howling away & there is a wire that has > > chafed inside the spar that you are blissfully unawar > > of until you grab the mast & get zap'd because your > > wearing running shoes - wet - cuz you were heading up > > the mast. > > > > Would this work?? > > > > We are looking at putting a few fans on our property > > to charge the backup system for the house and I'm > > thinking of doing it this way, but this is ashore > > whitch makes it safer as I can just walk away > > > > However, I'm not an electrical guru and need > > confirmation on this, so please chime in lads. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > Chime .... > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > Which is a pity - 'cause it's a neat idea which *would* work if you > were talking seriously high voltages (which is how mains electricity > is carried long distances across country). > > Another factor which mediates against the idea of remote diodes & > regulator is that *most* (although not all) wind generators produce > 3-phase AC which would require more cables to be run down the mast > than with DC. > > Provided the mast is grounded, from a safety point-of-view it doesn't > matter much what happens inside - even if a live wire were to make > contact with the mast, you'd be quite safe climbing up the outside of > the mast, even in bare feet, let alone running shoes. I'd strongly > suggest sticking with a 2 wire (live and return) system, as using the > mast as one conductor is fraught with potential electrolysis problems. > > Then there's the over-revving stuff to consider - all-in-all I think > Brent's method of mounting the genny much lower down and physically > turn the genny & lassoo the blades is the simplest approach. > > 'best, > Colin > | 16810|16803|2008-03-02 14:45:35|sae140|Re: Wind Generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > why we have AC in our homes. > > Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in > fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with > him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and > cons) is what we got. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Ben - I was attempting to be helpful by replying to someone on a boating site who had stated that they know very little about electricity. I think that sometimes in life there's a case for offering answers which are 'near enough' and appropriate to the recipient's level of knowledge rather than introducing more complex ideas such as impedance which might serve to bamboozle rather than clarify. Colin| 16811|16803|2008-03-02 15:26:11|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 07:45:33PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > > > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > > > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > > why we have AC in our homes. > > Ben - I was attempting to be helpful by replying to someone on a > boating site who had stated that they know very little about electricity. > I think that sometimes in life there's a case for offering answers > which are 'near enough' and appropriate to the recipient's level of > knowledge rather than introducing more complex ideas such as impedance > which might serve to bamboozle rather than clarify. Colin, if it was a question of "near enough", I wouldn't have bothered following up. Your statement was not only not useful (if it was, "near enough" would have actually applied) but gave bad information - including an incorrect definition of what woltage loss *is* [1] - in the very area that was being asked about. The whole point of using AC is to eliminate resistive voltage loss in long lines. Shane - the "someone who knows very little about electricity" - certainly seems aware that high-voltage AC works well in long lines, at least the practical aspect of it, and was trying to use that difference to his benefit. Telling him that there's no difference between the two does not help in any way. [1] Voltage drop in a DC circuit is a product of the _square_ of the current and resistance; this is why conductor sizes go up in an accelerating curve as you decrease the system voltage for a given load. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16812|16803|2008-03-02 17:41:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Wind Generator|Thanks to everyone for all the info on wind generators. The Air X can be bought as a 48 v unit and electric winches in 24 v as can navigation lights. My engine has a 12v starter and electrics. Is it much of a drama to run with different voltages? Regards, Ted| 16813|16756|2008-03-02 17:42:34|seeratlas|Re: "What If" boat|Well, I guess I shouldn't have blurted out so quickly but now that i'm in the soup, "generally speaking" hunters are considered by "many" as coastal boats. Now there ARE some accomplished sailors who have taken them out and about, including some ocean racing, (they are for the most part quick) HOWEVER, to me they seem lightly built and I'm not alone. You know something's "up" when you pull into a foreign port and people come up to you at the bar and ask.."what in hell are you doing here in a Hunter? " :) They would not be my first choice. As Pascoe says in his articles on fibreglass builders, every few months you hear about some new breakthrough in resins, or procedures, or foams, or whatever..but 'HOOEY' (his word not mine:) for a clorox cruiser you want solid fibre in the hull and lots of it. I will say that the larger hunters, 40 and up in the last few years appear to be getting more 'beef' and if the one you're looking at fits that bill, perhaps a thorough exam is in order. I will tell you, however, that if you check the Mahina site of recommended cruising yachts, Hunter does not appear on that substantial list... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Seer, > > In wich direction goes your comparison to Hunter's, do they have a good or a bad reputation? I saw one that needs repair for a good price. > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: seeratlas@... > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:34:12 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: > >> > >> > >> you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what > > you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are > > fiberglass! > >> > >> Martin > > > > Martin, this is surely true, however, not all fibre boats are Hunters > > :) The issue is, are they strong 'enough'...For example, take a peek > > at this site where Hurricane Andrew tried to tear up this Bertram > > (btw, add a six foot cockpit on the back and that boat looks very much > > like the one I just bought, better "location" on mine tho LOL) > > > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/BertramYacht.htm > > > > As the author notes, damage was minor and the boat promptly returned > > to service. The site might be good reading for anyone looking at > > used boats. Fellow is a well known and experienced surveyor, and while > > not dealing with sail type boats, his remarks regarding construction, > > engines etc. are worth a read. > > > > In any event, for my intended purpose, which will NOT entail crashing > > thru pilings, pounding thru a sea wall and someone's house/restaurant > > etc., my use instead being a river/intracoastal liveaboard, the > > bertie suits my needs admirably, and what I paid would just about > > cover an overhaul on one of the motors.....neither of which needs one > > fortunately, with only 1100 low speed hours. > > > > There are some serious deals out there, in both fibreglass AND steel, > > of which I can now personally attest. > > > > Bottom line, I now own just under 100ft of complete, running, and VERY > > nice seaworthy boats, for less than 400.00 a foot...and that's in US > > 'Pesos"...:) > > > > They would salvage for far more than that... > > > > and yes, they are not *exactly* what I wanted, but they are damned > > close :) > > > > seer > > > > ______________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: opuspaul@ > >>> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > >>> > >>> > >>> I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on > > the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one > > should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. > > Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge > > amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for > > economic reasons. > >>> > >>> Cheers, Paul > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: seeratlas> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > >>> > >>> You might search the used boat market. I recently found several > >>> astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully > >>> rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. > >>> Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats > >>> can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take > >>> him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., > >>> then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. > >>> > >>> I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple > >>> of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram > >>> motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp > >>> gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. > >>> > >>> In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you > >>> can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something > >>> darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. > >>> > >>> seer > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thanks Carl, > >>>> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on > >>>> Moonflower's website. > >>>> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. > >>>> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time > >>>> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime > >>>> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather > >>>> than boat building. > >>>> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time > >>>> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my > > work. > >>>> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less > >>>> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, > >>>> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). > >>>> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the > >>>> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as > >>>> well as the cruising? > >>>> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: > >>>> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ > >>>> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then > >>>> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the > >>>> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to > >>>> keep me cruising indefiniteley. > >>>> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% > >>>> finished project and take it from there. > >>>> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be > >>>> working... > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Matt > >>>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? > >>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16814|16803|2008-03-02 17:48:55|seeratlas|Re: Wind Generator|There's a guy on ebay selling 48volt surplus inverters in 1400 or 1800 continuous watt models. I have bought two of em as they are 'stackable' thru a phase sync wire. I've only fooled with mine for a few minutes off a set of 4 12's in series but it runs the computer stuff without drama. Supposed to be a self modifying sine wave design (whatever that means lol) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for all the info on wind generators. The Air X can > be bought as a 48 v unit and electric winches in 24 v as can navigation > lights. My engine has a 12v starter and electrics. Is it much of a > drama to run with different voltages? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 16815|16756|2008-03-02 18:15:46|martin demers|Re: "What If" boat|the add I saw (in Ontario) is about a Hunter 33 1979 needing some work around the keel, the rudder shaft and redo the interior, asking $6500.00 I think I will stick to a steel hull, my goal is not to stay coastal! Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: seeratlas@... > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 22:42:32 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > Well, I guess I shouldn't have blurted out so quickly but now that i'm > in the soup, "generally speaking" hunters are considered by "many" as > coastal boats. Now there ARE some accomplished sailors who have taken > them out and about, including some ocean racing, (they are for the > most part quick) HOWEVER, to me they seem lightly built and I'm not > alone. You know something's "up" when you pull into a foreign port and > people come up to you at the bar and ask.."what in hell are you doing > here in a Hunter? " :) > > They would not be my first choice. As Pascoe says in his articles on > fibreglass builders, every few months you hear about some new > breakthrough in resins, or procedures, or foams, or whatever..but > 'HOOEY' (his word not mine:) for a clorox cruiser you want solid > fibre in the hull and lots of it. > > I will say that the larger hunters, 40 and up in the last few years > appear to be getting more 'beef' and if the one you're looking at fits > that bill, perhaps a thorough exam is in order. I will tell you, > however, that if you check the Mahina site of recommended cruising > yachts, Hunter does not appear on that substantial list... > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Seer, >> >> In wich direction goes your comparison to Hunter's, do they have a > good or a bad reputation? I saw one that needs repair for a good price. >> >> Martin >> ________________________________ >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> From: seeratlas@... >>> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:34:12 +0000 >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what >>> you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are >>> fiberglass! >>>> >>>> Martin >>> >>> Martin, this is surely true, however, not all fibre boats are Hunters >>> :) The issue is, are they strong 'enough'...For example, take a peek >>> at this site where Hurricane Andrew tried to tear up this Bertram >>> (btw, add a six foot cockpit on the back and that boat looks very much >>> like the one I just bought, better "location" on mine tho LOL) >>> >>> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/BertramYacht.htm >>> >>> As the author notes, damage was minor and the boat promptly returned >>> to service. The site might be good reading for anyone looking at >>> used boats. Fellow is a well known and experienced surveyor, and while >>> not dealing with sail type boats, his remarks regarding construction, >>> engines etc. are worth a read. >>> >>> In any event, for my intended purpose, which will NOT entail crashing >>> thru pilings, pounding thru a sea wall and someone's house/restaurant >>> etc., my use instead being a river/intracoastal liveaboard, the >>> bertie suits my needs admirably, and what I paid would just about >>> cover an overhaul on one of the motors.....neither of which needs one >>> fortunately, with only 1100 low speed hours. >>> >>> There are some serious deals out there, in both fibreglass AND steel, >>> of which I can now personally attest. >>> >>> Bottom line, I now own just under 100ft of complete, running, and VERY >>> nice seaworthy boats, for less than 400.00 a foot...and that's in US >>> 'Pesos"...:) >>> >>> They would salvage for far more than that... >>> >>> and yes, they are not *exactly* what I wanted, but they are damned >>> close :) >>> >>> seer >>> >>> ______________________ >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> From: opuspaul@ >>>>> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 >>>>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on >>> the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one >>> should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. >>> Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge >>> amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for >>> economic reasons. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Paul >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> From: seeratlas> >>>>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM >>>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat >>>>> >>>>> You might search the used boat market. I recently found several >>>>> astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully >>>>> rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. >>>>> Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats >>>>> can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will > take >>>>> him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom > etc., >>>>> then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. >>>>> >>>>> I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a > couple >>>>> of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot > Bertram >>>>> motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp >>>>> gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. >>>>> >>>>> In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want > assuming you >>>>> can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something >>>>> darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. >>>>> >>>>> seer >>>>> >>>>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Carl, >>>>>> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the > pictures) on >>>>>> Moonflower's website. >>>>>> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. >>>>>> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time >>>>>> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime >>>>>> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning > rather >>>>>> than boat building. >>>>>> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the > time >>>>>> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my >>> work. >>>>>> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less >>>>>> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think > i did, >>>>>> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). >>>>>> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the >>>>>> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as >>>>>> well as the cruising? >>>>>> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: >>>>>> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ >>>>>> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years > then >>>>>> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the >>>>>> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to >>>>>> keep me cruising indefiniteley. >>>>>> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% >>>>>> finished project and take it from there. >>>>>> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be >>>>>> working... >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Matt >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? >>>>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. >>> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> > > > _________________________________________________________________| 16816|16756|2008-03-02 18:44:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: "What If" boat|I owned a 1976 Hunter 27 in 1983. The keel kind of fell off as they were picking it up to put it in the water because of an amazing engineering flaw in that design. They had recessed the lead keel about 2 inches into the bottom of the hull. To do that they had to cut a notch through the stringers, effectively reducing their strength by about 4 times! I fixed it myself by going in with a carbide cutter and removing all 6 stringers, then glassing it all back together with 12 stringers and woven roving, plus large backing plates on the keel bolts. A few months later I was leaving a cove at night because of the mosquitoes and I caught a jib sheet around the prop shaft. It acted like a winch and got very very close to pulling the strut clean out of the bottom of the boat! That scared the hell out of me and I beefed up the strut area and the rudder tube too. The guy I sold the boat to made the trip from NJ to Florida on the ocean 3 times. He had heart problems and was getting too weak to sail so he sold it and was delivering it. They found the boat and his body on the beach in North Carolina. Funny thing about Hunters though. There is some damn good engineering in them for the price. For instance, a couple of years ago I was looking at boats at a boat show. The Island Packets and such had big beefy fairleads on the rails for mooring lines, and large bronze cleats well inboard. So of course you need chafing gear on the lines at the fairleads. The same size Hunter at less than half the price had all the cleats, bow and stern mounted tilted outwards. Mooring lines then could be lead right to the cleats, and with no stretching across a fairlead they won't ever chafe! That's good engineering! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat Well, I guess I shouldn't have blurted out so quickly but now that i'm in the soup, "generally speaking" hunters are considered by "many" as coastal boats. Now there ARE some accomplished sailors who have taken them out and about, including some ocean racing, (they are for the most part quick) HOWEVER, to me they seem lightly built and I'm not alone. You know something's "up" when you pull into a foreign port and people come up to you at the bar and ask.."what in hell are you doing here in a Hunter? " :) They would not be my first choice. As Pascoe says in his articles on fibreglass builders, every few months you hear about some new breakthrough in resins, or procedures, or foams, or whatever..but 'HOOEY' (his word not mine:) for a clorox cruiser you want solid fibre in the hull and lots of it. I will say that the larger hunters, 40 and up in the last few years appear to be getting more 'beef' and if the one you're looking at fits that bill, perhaps a thorough exam is in order. I will tell you, however, that if you check the Mahina site of recommended cruising yachts, Hunter does not appear on that substantial list... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Seer, > > In wich direction goes your comparison to Hunter's, do they have a good or a bad reputation? I saw one that needs repair for a good price. > > Martin > ________________________________ > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > From: seeratlas@... > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:34:12 +0000 > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers> wrote: > >> > >> > >> you might have to build your own boat if you dont find exactly what > > you want. There are a lot of boats for sale but a lot of those are > > fiberglass! > >> > >> Martin > > > > Martin, this is surely true, however, not all fibre boats are Hunters > > :) The issue is, are they strong 'enough'...For example, take a peek > > at this site where Hurricane Andrew tried to tear up this Bertram > > (btw, add a six foot cockpit on the back and that boat looks very much > > like the one I just bought, better "location" on mine tho LOL) > > > > http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/BertramYacht.htm > > > > As the author notes, damage was minor and the boat promptly returned > > to service. The site might be good reading for anyone looking at > > used boats. Fellow is a well known and experienced surveyor, and while > > not dealing with sail type boats, his remarks regarding construction, > > engines etc. are worth a read. > > > > In any event, for my intended purpose, which will NOT entail crashing > > thru pilings, pounding thru a sea wall and someone's house/restaurant > > etc., my use instead being a river/intracoastal liveaboard, the > > bertie suits my needs admirably, and what I paid would just about > > cover an overhaul on one of the motors.....neither of which needs one > > fortunately, with only 1100 low speed hours. > > > > There are some serious deals out there, in both fibreglass AND steel, > > of which I can now personally attest. > > > > Bottom line, I now own just under 100ft of complete, running, and VERY > > nice seaworthy boats, for less than 400.00 a foot...and that's in US > > 'Pesos"...:) > > > > They would salvage for far more than that... > > > > and yes, they are not *exactly* what I wanted, but they are damned > > close :) > > > > seer > > > > ______________________ > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> From: opuspaul@ > >>> Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:17:52 -0800 > >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > >>> > >>> > >>> I have to agree with Seer. There are too many good, cheap boats on > > the market to make monetary sense to build, in my opinion. No one > > should start building a boat unless they really, really want to build. > > Build a boat for the experience and satisfaction. You need a huge > > amount of desire and commitment to carry it through. Don't do it for > > economic reasons. > >>> > >>> Cheers, Paul > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ---- > >>> From: seeratlas> > >>> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 8:39:50 AM > >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: "What If" boat > >>> > >>> You might search the used boat market. I recently found several > >>> astounding deals out there. I know a guy who just bought a fully > >>> rigged, and good condition Formosa 50 Ketch out there for 12k US. > >>> Pretty well equipped too, with good sails, fibre decks (these boats > >>> can have bad decks if teak over ply) basic electronics etc. Will take > >>> him about a month to redo the varnish, haul and paint the bottom etc., > >>> then he's got one heck of a good liveaboard. > >>> > >>> I myself got a 44 Brewer designed Kanter built steel schooner a couple > >>> of months ago (paid peanuts) and closed yesterday on a 50 foot Bertram > >>> motoryacht with 1100 hours on the two big cummins (yeah I know "gulp > >>> gulp gulp lol) for only slightly more. > >>> > >>> In any event, if you build you get exactly what you want assuming you > >>> can afford it. If you look around used, you might find something > >>> darned close:) This is a heck of a boat buyer's market. > >>> > >>> seer > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "Matt" wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thanks Carl, > >>>> I've just finished reading the text (and looking at the pictures) on > >>>> Moonflower's website. > >>>> Brilliant, and i'm sure you're two happy customers. > >>>> I must say i'm cooling on the idea of building a boat - every time > >>>> i've crunched the numbers the answer's the same: i'll be fulltime > >>>> cruising sooner if i spend my "spare" time working and earning rather > >>>> than boat building. > >>>> In other words, the money i could save from building, given the time > >>>> that would take, is far less than the money i could make doing my > > work. > >>>> I mean, in the ten months it took you to build, more or less > >>>> full-time, Moonflower, i could have earned $50k or so (i think i did, > >>>> i'm just not sure what i did with it!). > >>>> Am i alone in having reached this conclusion, or am i missing the > >>>> point vis-a-vis building; that the pleasure is IN the building, as > >>>> well as the cruising? > >>>> Gerd (Yago) has a lot to say on this subject too: > >>>> http://www.yago- project.com/ content/view/ 72/66/lang, en/ > >>>> Anyhoo, i think i'll just work my butt off for a few more years then > >>>> just fly up to North America and buy the steel boat that seems the > >>>> best fit for me. By then the cruising kitty should be big enough to > >>>> keep me cruising indefiniteley. > >>>> Perhaps when i'm ready i'll fly up to BC and buy someone's 80% > >>>> finished project and take it from there. > >>>> In the meantime, i'll lurk on forums such as this when i should be > >>>> working... > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Matt > >>>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________________ > >>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? > >>> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > >>> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > | 16817|16756|2008-03-02 19:02:47|Ben Okopnik|Re: "What If" boat|On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 10:42:32PM -0000, seer wrote: > Well, I guess I shouldn't have blurted out so quickly but now that i'm > in the soup, "generally speaking" hunters are considered by "many" as > coastal boats. Now there ARE some accomplished sailors who have taken > them out and about, including some ocean racing, (they are for the > most part quick) HOWEVER, to me they seem lightly built and I'm not > alone. You know something's "up" when you pull into a foreign port and > people come up to you at the bar and ask.."what in hell are you doing > here in a Hunter? " :) [laugh] There's a 65' McGregor in Bermuda. People have been asking that question about it since the day it arrived - particularly since Bermudians tend to be dyed-in-the-wool sailors (most of them wouldn't think twice about sailing over to, say, Boston for a good party, and they consider the Azores their next-door neighbors.) > They would not be my first choice. As Pascoe says in his articles on > fibreglass builders, every few months you hear about some new > breakthrough in resins, or procedures, or foams, or whatever..but > 'HOOEY' (his word not mine:) for a clorox cruiser you want solid > fibre in the hull and lots of it. Which definitely does _not_ describe any Hunters I've been on. To be fair, those have all been 35' and smaller. On those, you can watch the hull flex if you go into the forepeak while sailing in a chop. The owner, when I reported this to him, told me "It's supposed to do that." Uh-huh... > I will say that the larger hunters, 40 and up in the last few years > appear to be getting more 'beef' and if the one you're looking at fits > that bill, perhaps a thorough exam is in order. I will tell you, > however, that if you check the Mahina site of recommended cruising > yachts, Hunter does not appear on that substantial list... Hunters are well known, in the cruising circles, for breaking their rudders in bad weather - and have been for years. Searching the Net should prove instructive. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16818|16803|2008-03-02 20:25:58|mark hamill|Re: Wind Generator|My genertator is mounted on the mizzen--about 24 feet up and I did this to reduce the blade and vibration noise which I imagine would be even more noisy if mounted on a pole aft. I am still considering mounting with a pole for convenience and as a salami cutter :). I think it might be possible to reduce the vibration noise. The size of the wire would go down and thus expense of the wire. There are other costs such as the switch to shut it down $75 or $45 ?? and the breaker which I think was $75--It was one of those waterproof marine breakers. In wiring the boat I have been using the construction guide provided by the coast guard which is available free. I will try and find where one can order this. Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > why we have AC in our homes. > > Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in > fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with > him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and > cons) is what we got. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16819|16803|2008-03-02 21:12:34|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 01:25:54AM -0000, mark hamill wrote: > My genertator is mounted on the mizzen--about 24 feet up and I did > this to reduce the blade and vibration noise which I imagine would be > even more noisy if mounted on a pole aft. That just reminded me - now that I'm thinking about it, I've got a sort of a home-made vibration absorber up there. No wonder I was confused by somebody here saying "they're really noisy!" Mine isn't. :) When I first went up the mizzen to see where I could mount this thing, I saw a short stainless pipe welded to the mast cap, with a round flange (~4" wide) on top of it - and it had 3 large, evenly-spaced holes drilled in it, about 1/2" in from the edge. That was perfect for my purposes: I measured everything and went back down the mast, grabbed a piece of heavy-wall aluminum pipe that I just bought for the purpose, and had a friend with a TIG welder make up a matching flange on it. I then took a "rod" of solidified 5200 (a tube of it had kicked off in my paint locker; I'd peeled the cardboard off and just couldn't bear to throw it away - it looked like it would be really useful later), cut it into pucks of various thicknesses, and used them to separate the flanges, like so: O | | O === | | === O - screw head -- ---- ---- -- ### - 5200 "fender washers" ####### ####### === - stainless washers -- ---- ---- -- X - stainless nuts ### | | ### === | | === X | | X I was a bit concerned about stainless against aluminum, or the 5200 deteriorating in the sun - but the few times that I've gone up there in the years since, everything looks ship-shape and tight. > I am still considering > mounting with a pole for convenience and as a salami cutter :). Hey, great idea - maybe we can come up with a salami cutter that you can attach to a halyard and raise into position... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16820|16820|2008-03-02 23:09:34|bendeac2000|Touching up pre-primed steel|Hi, I'm replacing a bent section of hull (post grounding) and I plan to use pre-abraded and primed steel. Brent, when you say you only need to touch up welds, what exactly do you mean by "touch up"? Do you mean touch them up with a blaster, or just with a grinder and then primer? Cheers, Ben Deacon Sydney| 16821|16803|2008-03-03 03:01:09|David A. Frantz|Re: Wind Generator|Hi Ted; The higher voltages result in lower current draw for a given power. This means a lower voltage drop across your wiring so less in the way of losses. 48 volts DC seems to be a popular voltage for DC propulsion. That is one good point plus it also seems to be a common voltage for off line 120VAC inverters. That is solar power / wind powered battery backed AC voltage source. So 48VDC in and of itself isn't that bad. For your nav equipment what you would need is a DC to DC (48 to 12) converter rated for the devices in question. These are available though maybe you will have to look around a bit. 48VDC is a common voltage in the communications industry so the parts are available, not always cheap if specified for ma Bell. You can even find 48 VDC in power supplies for PC's if you look around. As to the engine battery that should be on a separate circuit anyways. You really don't want your house loads running off that battery. Now you may want to look into a DC to dC charger, but to be honest I haven't heard nor seen any for this sort of application. It would be nice if such chargers existed because I would then recommend one to charge the winch battery. The problem with the winch is that it will be a fairly high current load and I'm not sure what the availability and reliability of a large DC to DC converters to run it would be. In a nut shell the only place where I night think you will have a problem is with the winch. Otherwise the two voltage systems are not a problem. Dave edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for all the info on wind generators. The Air X can > be bought as a 48 v unit and electric winches in 24 v as can navigation > lights. My engine has a 12v starter and electrics. Is it much of a > drama to run with different voltages? > > Regards, > > Ted > > | 16822|16822|2008-03-03 07:13:02|L. V|new cruise ship postcard website|Hello from Sydney I have recently listed some NEW cruise ship postcard on my website... Have a look at them at http://postcard.pics-sydney.com.au and let me know if you would like to SWAP with me (see my swapping info page at http://postcard.pics-sydney.com.au/index.php?main_page=page_3 You can also win some totally FREE cards by registering your details on our site, see info on how to WIN free postcards (and cover) at http://postcard.pics-sydney.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=16&chapter=0 Laurent from down-under| 16823|16823|2008-03-03 13:03:06|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Wind chargers|Ben, Colin et all, I guess this is a case of a little bit of informatin being dangerous. Thanks for straightening me out. at the same time i did say that i was ignorant enuf about AC current to have a healthy fear of it. Your comments much appreciated & it helps to have a group \i can ask techie questions of . Cheers, Shane Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com| 16824|16803|2008-03-03 17:22:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: Wind Generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > why we have AC in our homes. > > Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in > fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with > him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and > cons) is what we got. Ben, that last statement either is really badly phrased, or you have confused knowledge of history. Tesla INVENTED AC power. Edison was the DC guy. Edison did his best to discredit Tesla. Edison installed DC power systems but couldn't make them scale up. Tesla is basically responsible for all the key inventions and prototype technology that makes the world power grid run today, including interconnects between gen sets, long distance power transmission, AC motors and the like. Edison was a tinkerer in comparison. Check your history. PDW| 16825|16803|2008-03-03 18:37:32|seeratlas|Re: Wind Generator|-er um, but i heard it was Westinghouse who pushed AC and Edison came up with the AC electric chair to show how 'dangerous' AC was while he was trying to push DC. seer tesla is one of the most interesting physicists in all of history, when he died all of his personal belongings were seized by a 'black bag' operation....including his then recent design for an energy weap. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 02:57:16PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > > > > > Voltage loss is voltage loss (i.e. a product of current and > > > resistance) regardless of whether the voltage waveform is DC or AC. > > > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > > why we have AC in our homes. > > > > Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in > > fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with > > him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and > > cons) is what we got. > > Ben, that last statement either is really badly phrased, or you have > confused knowledge of history. > > Tesla INVENTED AC power. Edison was the DC guy. Edison did his best to > discredit Tesla. Edison installed DC power systems but couldn't make > them scale up. Tesla is basically responsible for all the key > inventions and prototype technology that makes the world power grid > run today, including interconnects between gen sets, long distance > power transmission, AC motors and the like. Edison was a tinkerer in > comparison. Check your history. > > PDW > | 16826|16803|2008-03-03 19:46:14|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 10:22:23PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Although Nikola Tesla did claim to have solved that problem - and, in > > fact, demonstrated that he had - the secret appears to have died with > > him. Edison got the funding, Tesla didn't, and AC (with its pros and > > cons) is what we got. > > Ben, that last statement either is really badly phrased, or you have > confused knowledge of history. > > Tesla INVENTED AC power. Edison was the DC guy. Edison did his best to > discredit Tesla. Edison installed DC power systems but couldn't make > them scale up. Tesla is basically responsible for all the key > inventions and prototype technology that makes the world power grid > run today, including interconnects between gen sets, long distance > power transmission, AC motors and the like. Edison was a tinkerer in > comparison. Check your history. I've read Tesla's biography, Edison's "official" biography - still have that one, actually - and studied history of that period, but that was many years ago. I may well be misremembering the way that battle went, though; I recall that Tesla went to Morgan for financing for his method, and Morgan turned him down because he couldn't see a way to collect money on it (Tesla said something like "you'll be able to draw power from any point on Earth simply by plugging a metal rod into the ground.") Tesla _also_ came up with a way to transmit DC long distance - while working with Edison, I believe - without any appreciable losses; his demonstration with the light bank in Montauk, NY while the power source was in NYC (about 120 miles away, as I recall) was intended to show that. That may be what I'm remembering, and it's certainly possible that I've confused the rest of it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16827|16803|2008-03-03 19:48:36|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 11:37:31PM -0000, seer wrote: > -er um, but i heard it was Westinghouse who pushed AC and Edison came > up with the AC electric chair to show how 'dangerous' AC was while he > was trying to push DC. Again, as I recall, Edison electrocuted a dog in public to show the dangers of "the other guy's work"; all it got him was the disgust of the public for killing a helpless animal. Shoulda consulted those folks on Madison Avenue... -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16828|16828|2008-03-04 16:05:41|rd_cedar|Specifications for the BS-31?|Looking through the "origamiboats" files, i have NOT found any specifications describing the BS-31. Such as: displacement, ballast, draft, sail-area, tankage volume. Moreover, i have never seen any simple exterior or interior drawings. However, i did see a couple of photos at the PAR-PAR blog. Can anyone provide me with basic specs on the BS-31?| 16829|16828|2008-03-04 16:14:53|polaris041|Re: Specifications for the BS-31?|LOA 31' Beam 10' Draft 4' 6" LWL 26' 6" Displacement 12,000 lbs Keel wt 3500 lbs --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rd_cedar" wrote: > > Looking through the "origamiboats" files, i have NOT found any > specifications describing the BS-31. > > Such as: > displacement, > ballast, > draft, > sail-area, > tankage volume. > > Moreover, i have never seen any simple exterior or interior drawings. > > However, i did see a couple of photos at the PAR-PAR blog. > > Can anyone provide me with basic specs on the BS-31? > | 16830|16803|2008-03-04 17:51:51|brentswain38|Re: Wind Generator|EWdison bought the patent for the electric lightbulb from a couple of Canadians.He plagerised many of his so called inventions Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 11:37:31PM -0000, seer wrote: > > -er um, but i heard it was Westinghouse who pushed AC and Edison came > > up with the AC electric chair to show how 'dangerous' AC was while he > > was trying to push DC. > > Again, as I recall, Edison electrocuted a dog in public to show the > dangers of "the other guy's work"; all it got him was the disgust of the > public for killing a helpless animal. Shoulda consulted those folks on > Madison Avenue... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16831|16803|2008-03-05 00:10:52|sv_roan1|Re: Wind Generator|I am not sure some advise you are getting in regards to actual persons you have "lived" on wind power or just have opinions. My advise is to spend some time on defining what you need for power, then design a complete "system" that will perfom best to your needs. This is most likey not one solution, but a few that will help meet your power demands. i.e. x watts of solar, x watts of wind x watts engine, x watts towing ...etc. These all depend on where you plan to cruise, martinis with ice in the tropics etc. Good luck --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Thanks to everyone for all the info on wind generators. The Air X can > be bought as a 48 v unit and electric winches in 24 v as can navigation > lights. My engine has a 12v starter and electrics. Is it much of a > drama to run with different voltages? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 16832|16803|2008-03-05 00:27:04|Aaron Williams|Re: Wind Generator|Nikoli Tesla is the true inventor of AC electricty. Has been covered up for many years. Look Tesla up he should be standing right with Instine. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 1:51:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wind Generator EWdison bought the patent for the electric lightbulb from a couple of Canadians.He plagerised many of his so called inventions Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 11:37:31PM -0000, seer wrote: > > -er um, but i heard it was Westinghouse who pushed AC and Edison came > > up with the AC electric chair to show how 'dangerous' AC was while he > > was trying to push DC. > > Again, as I recall, Edison electrocuted a dog in public to show the > dangers of "the other guy's work"; all it got him was the disgust of the > public for killing a helpless animal. Shoulda consulted those folks on > Madison Avenue... > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16833|16803|2008-03-05 06:32:50|edward_stoneuk|Re: Wind Generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > EWdison bought the patent for the electric lightbulb from a couple of > Canadians.He plagerised many of his so called inventions > Brent To quote from the web: Sir Joseph Swan, a British inventor, obtained the first patent for the same light bulb in Britain one year prior to Edison's patent date. Swan even publicly unveiled his carbon filament light bulb in Newcastle, England a minimum of 10 years before Edison shocked the world with the announcement that he invented the first light bulb. Edison's light bulb, in fact, was a carbon copy of Swan's light bulb. Swan took Edison to Court for patent infringement. The British Courts stood by their patent award for the light bulb to Swan, and Edison lost the suit. If you google Swan Edison you will find all sorts of information and claims about the light bulb one even going back to 1800 and Humphry Davy, an English scientist. I guess then as now many people were working on similar ideas and learning from each other. Same in the origamiboat world really. Below is a list of SI units and the persons after whom they are named. Great men, great brains. Neither Edison or Swan are there. ampere A base unit electric current André-Marie Ampère (1775-1836) kelvin K base unit thermodynamic temperature, Lord Kelvin/William Thomson (1824-1907) Celsius degree °C Celsius temperature Anders Celsius (1701-1744) hertz Hz 1/s frequency Heinrich Rudolf Hertz (1857-1894) newton N kg m/s2 force Isaac Newton (1642-1727) pascal Pa N/m2 pressure, stress Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) joule J N m energy, work, James Prescott Joule quantity of heat (1818-1889); no stamp watt W J/s power, radiant flux James Watt (1736-1819) coulomb C A s electric charge, Charles Coulomb quantity of electricity (1736-1806) volt V W/A electric potential difference,electromotive force, Alessandro Volta (1745-1827) farad F C/V electric capacitance Michael Faraday (1791-1867) ohm  V/A electric resistance Georg Simon Ohm (1787-1854) siemens S A/V electric conductance Werner von Siemens (1816-1892) weber Wb V s magnetic flux Wilhelm Eduard Weber (1804-1891) tesla T Wb/m2 magnetic flux density Nikola Tesla (1856-1943) henry H Wb/A electric inductance Joseph Henry (1797-1878); becquerel Bq 1/s activity of a radionuclide Antoine-Henri Becquerel (1852-1908) gray Gy J/kg absorbed dose Louis Harold Gray (1905-1965) sievert Sv J/kg dose equivalent Rolf Sievert (1898-1966) Regards, Ted| 16834|16803|2008-03-05 08:29:48|seeratlas|Re: Wind Generator|Well, not really,,, if I remember correctly, (my physics is old physics heheh) some guy named oerstad or something like that discovered that electricity moving thru a wire created a magnetic effect. It was Faraday and I believe a guy named Henry who some years later came to the conclusion that 'hey, if electric flow creates magnetism, maybe magnetism can create electric flow".. and voila' it did. In passing a magnet back and forth thru what I think was a rudimentary induction coil, they essentially became the first that I know of to create AC current. This was while Tesla was still a kiddino I think. What Tesla did was figure out a way to make this all work commercially, took out a bunch of patents, gave a lecture on his system to some science society which was seen by edison nemesis Westinghouse, who then bought out the patents, went into business with Tesla and the rest is history, as they say. Tesla's was certainly one of the great minds of recorded history, and I'll assume that you mistyped Einstein :) Interesting note, there is some indication that a substantial part of Einstein's thinking leading up to his theory of relativity, was contributed by his little known first wife.... In any event, it all works :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Nikoli Tesla is the true inventor of AC electricty. Has been covered up for many years. Look Tesla up he should be standing right with Instine. > Aaron > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 1:51:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wind Generator > > EWdison bought the patent for the electric lightbulb from a couple of > Canadians.He plagerised many of his so called inventions > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 11:37:31PM -0000, seer wrote: > > > -er um, but i heard it was Westinghouse who pushed AC and Edison came > > > up with the AC electric chair to show how 'dangerous' AC was while he > > > was trying to push DC. > > > > Again, as I recall, Edison electrocuted a dog in public to show the > > dangers of "the other guy's work"; all it got him was the disgust of the > > public for killing a helpless animal. Shoulda consulted those folks on > > Madison Avenue... > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16835|16803|2008-03-05 10:30:05|sae140|Re: Wind Generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > I'm afraid that's incorrect. DC losses are due to resistance; AC losses > > are due to impedance. This can *really* matter in long lines, and that's > > why we have AC in our homes. > The whole point of using AC is to eliminate resistive voltage loss in long > lines. Sure - the reason AC is used for mains power supply is a) the ease of supply generation by rotary alternators and b) the ease of transforming the supply to and from the higher voltages employed for long-distance transfer which ensure reduced levels of 'I-squared R' losses as heat radiating from the cables, due to the lower currents required at these elevated voltages. Of course for national grid power transfer we are talking about many tens of thousands of volts, a situation which ain't gonna happen along any yacht mast - as you've already commented yourself. But the original post wasn't about transfer over several kilometers - the *context* was AC or DC down a yacht mast over just a few tens of feet, where inductive and capacitive reactance considerations will not be of any significance *in practice*. The only losses one needs to be concerned with here are those due to wire resistance, and so I stand by my earlier comments. I see little point in being excessively pedantic about such matters on a forum concerned primarily with boat construction. Save that for an electrical or electronics forum. The pursuit of intellectual oneupmanship is really of no interest to me, so I'll not be commenting any further on this. Colin| 16836|16803|2008-03-05 10:37:30|Ben Okopnik|Re: Wind Generator|On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 03:29:08PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > The pursuit of intellectual oneupmanship is really of no interest to > me, so I'll not be commenting any further on this. Oh, good. That means it'll stop now. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16837|16803|2008-03-05 11:12:58|Carl Anderson|Anyone know where to get a seizing iron?|Looking for a seizing iron to do my rigging. Gotta make the eyes on the end of the 1X7 and need a seizing iron to do that properly. Any advise on making your own (size, material, etc.) would be appreciated. Thanks, Carl| 16838|16838|2008-03-05 12:37:24|seeratlas|Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|Hi all, working on the dinosaur I recently acquired (big azz bertram-yeah i know heheh)and have some corrosion in the coolant/heat exchanger system. Motor is a Cummins V 903 M and my guess is you have to be damned careful on flushing these old motors so that you don't have big chunks breaking off and clogging up the internal passageways in the engine sooo, if any of you guys have experience in this area I'd love to hear your advice before i or the local mechanic do something wrong and end up coughing up big (or at least formerly big :) US Pesos... as always, thanks in advance. seer| 16839|16838|2008-03-05 13:22:26|Ben Okopnik|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 05:37:20PM -0000, seer wrote: > Hi all, working on the dinosaur I recently acquired (big azz > bertram-yeah i know heheh)and have some corrosion in the coolant/heat > exchanger system. Motor is a Cummins V 903 M and my guess is you have > to be damned careful on flushing these old motors so that you don't > have big chunks breaking off and clogging up the internal passageways > in the engine sooo, if any of you guys have experience in this area > I'd love to hear your advice before i or the local mechanic do > something wrong and end up coughing up big (or at least formerly big > :) US Pesos... I wouldn't worry much about the engine passageways - those guys are cast with lots of room, and the water pumps can chew some pretty big stuff too. Usually, the thing that gets jammed up is the radiator. If I had to do something like that - as I did when I was racing my own cars and helping friends convert their street cars into racers - I'd want to make *sure* that all the big chunks broke off right the hell now. "Better in the garage than on the track" is what we used to say - but you can see how it would apply (to a much greater degree) at sea. Check your radiator (or whatever type of cooler you're using) for obstructions; if it's good, and you don't need to rebuild it, you've got a good start on things. Take your radiator out of the system (cross-connect the in/out hoses), pour some radiator flush into the system, and gun it hard for about five minutes, then turn it off and let it sit for an hour or two if you've got the patience. Gun it hard for another five, then drain it - not through the little piddle valve but out of the big hoses. You'd be amazed at what comes out, and you'll know that your cooling system isn't going to get jammed with crud when you really need it. And check your water pump output - if it's even a little below spec, change the impeller (if you can) ir the whole pump. That's cheap, compared to a failure at sea. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16840|16840|2008-03-05 13:28:32|Shane Duncan|Re: Wind Generator and The pursuit of intellectual oneupmanship|>The pursuit of intellectual oneupmanship is really of no interest to >me, so I'll not be commenting any further on this. >i see little point in being excessively pedantic about such matters on >a forum concerned primarily with boat construction Colin Intellectual one-upmanship is reasonable for the space shuttle and the Mars Exploration Rover . I�m now into my second week of Building a 31 foot BS, and hell that�s stressful enough. There is nothing wrong in my books with a bit of light intellectual stimulation. Some of the arguments and comments are superb. A tribute to the calibre of intellect involved in this forum ""concerned primarily with boat construction."" And just for the for the record seer Einstein�s mathematic basis for the theory of relativity came largely from a guy called Hendrik Lorentz best known for the Lorentz transformation and not his little known first wife. cheers shane ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2008 12:42:05 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Wind Generator On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 03:29:08PM -0000, sae140 wrote: > > The pursuit of intellectual oneupmanship is really of no interest to > me, so I'll not be commenting any further on this. Oh, good. That means it'll stop now. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16841|16838|2008-03-05 18:15:30|seeratlas|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell LOL. jesus, that sounds serious. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 05:37:20PM -0000, seer wrote: > > Hi all, working on the dinosaur I recently acquired (big azz > > bertram-yeah i know heheh)and have some corrosion in the coolant/heat > > exchanger system. Motor is a Cummins V 903 M and my guess is you have > > to be damned careful on flushing these old motors so that you don't > > have big chunks breaking off and clogging up the internal passageways > > in the engine sooo, if any of you guys have experience in this area > > I'd love to hear your advice before i or the local mechanic do > > something wrong and end up coughing up big (or at least formerly big > > :) US Pesos... > > I wouldn't worry much about the engine passageways - those guys are cast > with lots of room, and the water pumps can chew some pretty big stuff > too. Usually, the thing that gets jammed up is the radiator. If I had to > do something like that - as I did when I was racing my own cars and > helping friends convert their street cars into racers - I'd want to make > *sure* that all the big chunks broke off right the hell now. "Better in > the garage than on the track" is what we used to say - but you can see > how it would apply (to a much greater degree) at sea. > > Check your radiator (or whatever type of cooler you're using) for > obstructions; if it's good, and you don't need to rebuild it, you've got > a good start on things. Take your radiator out of the system > (cross-connect the in/out hoses), pour some radiator flush into the > system, and gun it hard for about five minutes, then turn it off and let > it sit for an hour or two if you've got the patience. Gun it hard for > another five, then drain it - not through the little piddle valve but > out of the big hoses. You'd be amazed at what comes out, and you'll know > that your cooling system isn't going to get jammed with crud when you > really need it. And check your water pump output - if it's even a little > below spec, change the impeller (if you can) ir the whole pump. That's > cheap, compared to a failure at sea. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16842|16838|2008-03-05 18:37:38|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|You can soak the heat exchanger in vinegar for a couple days then use a long stick of welding rod with no flux (aluminum rod works) to poke through all the channels to see if they are clear. This was recommended by a reliable source and I have done it a few times with success. Cheers Paul > Hi all, working on the dinosaur I recently acquired (big azz > bertram-yeah i know heheh)and have some corrosion in the coolant/heat > exchanger system. Motor is a Cummins V 903 M and my guess is you have > to be damned careful on flushing these old motors so that you don't > have big chunks breaking off and clogging up the internal passageways > in the engine sooo, if any of you guys have experience in this area > I'd love to hear your advice before i or the local mechanic do > something wrong and end up coughing up big (or at least formerly big > :) US Pesos... > > as always, thanks in advance. > > seer > > | 16843|16843|2008-03-06 03:10:42|john.wilkes25|Improve health and earn $ from home|http://www.mymonavie.com/dcail Improve health and earn $$ from home You've seen this on The Oprah Show and the Rachel Ray Show. Now experience it for yourself. Monavie!! Improve your own health and help others improve theirs. Puts money in your pocket, too!! Take a look. You won't be disappointed. Visit: http://www.mymonavie.com/dcail| 16844|16844|2008-03-06 04:45:05|john.wilkes25|This is how wealth is made!|http://www.tinyurl.com/27jr79 "THIS IS HOW WEALTH IS MADE" Hi, As an Internet Marketer I thought you would want to know about this Instant Millionaire Project, your $5000,000 Invitation. This is your Private Personal Invitation to join one of the worlds most rewarding financial associations. Last week: 66,721 new members joined the Project! If you can follow a set of instructions exactly, you will make money, and probably lots of it! The instructions are meticulous. The price is at such a threshold that you won't think twice about it. For a lifelong private income click her to get your invitation. http://tinyurl.com/27jr79 Ake E. PS. Act quickly for to take your $5 Million position.| 16845|16803|2008-03-06 10:30:22|James Pronk|Re: Anyone know where to get a seizing iron?|Hello Carl Just wondering what a seizing iron is? James. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Looking for a seizing iron to do my rigging. > Gotta make the eyes on the end of the 1X7 and need a seizing iron to do > that properly. > Any advise on making your own (size, material, etc.) would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Carl > | 16846|16838|2008-03-06 10:42:01|Ben Okopnik|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 02:37:37PM -0900, paulcotter@... wrote: > You can soak the heat exchanger in vinegar for a couple days then use a long stick > of welding rod with no flux (aluminum rod works) to poke through all the channels > to see if they are clear. This was recommended by a reliable source and I have done > it a few times with success. Yep - works pretty well. One of the times I did it, though, the heat exchanger sprang 4 (!) leaks at once... the crud had been plugging it up and keeping it going. This was in the Dominican Republic, where I didn't have much hope of getting a replacement part before Doomsday - so I used some metal-impregnated epoxy (like JB Weld) to patch it. That did a great job; it worked just fine for the next five years, as long as I had that boat. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16847|16838|2008-03-06 10:53:39|Ben Okopnik|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell LOL. > jesus, that sounds serious. I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough on the seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous (muriatic is already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush that you can get at any parts store works well, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16848|16838|2008-03-06 12:01:49|will jones|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|I never really thought of muriatic acid as being weak. Standard muriatic is typically 38% and this is about the most concentrated you can get at atmospheric pressure and room temp. It is still quite a strong mineral acid. Ben Okopnik wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell LOL. > jesus, that sounds serious. I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough on the seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous (muriatic is already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush that you can get at any parts store works well, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16849|16838|2008-03-06 13:40:17|colin edley|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|I'd use radiator flush, neoprene seals stand up to HCL no problem, gaskets, cork or greased felt seals are another thing, Given that sea water is alkaline the acid will foam producing hydrogen bubbles in anything that is soaked in it, this could lead to gasket delamination and oil leaks at best and worse case could be warped castings. will jones wrote: I never really thought of muriatic acid as being weak. Standard muriatic is typically 38% and this is about the most concentrated you can get at atmospheric pressure and room temp. It is still quite a strong mineral acid. Ben Okopnik wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell LOL. > jesus, that sounds serious. I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough on the seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous (muriatic is already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush that you can get at any parts store works well, though. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. The World 's Favourite Email. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16850|16838|2008-03-06 14:29:50|brentswain38|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|If you put the outlet of your header tank right below the fill, you can stich a hose barb on the end of a pipe in it and hook ahose to it, and easily flush the engine that way. It is also a good way to force antifreeze in and airbubbles out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > I never really thought of muriatic acid as being weak. Standard muriatic is typically 38% and this is about the most concentrated you can get at atmospheric pressure and room temp. It is still quite a strong mineral acid. > > Ben Okopnik wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell LOL. > > jesus, that sounds serious. > > I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough on the > seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous (muriatic is > already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush that you > can get at any parts store works well, though. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16851|16838|2008-03-07 15:02:10|mkriley48|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|in many years of boat repair I have used the muratic acid flush many times. I only use it on cast iron raw water cooled engines as the commercial stuff will not touch heavy rust scale. It will however raise hell with weak heat exchangers that are on the way out. no need to flush the fresh water side of a properly maintained engine. on the salt water side it is best to open up the heat exchanger and rod out the passages. mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > If you put the outlet of your header tank right below the fill, you > can stich a hose barb on the end of a pipe in it and hook ahose to > it, and easily flush the engine that way. It is also a good way to > force antifreeze in and airbubbles out. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones > wrote: > > > > I never really thought of muriatic acid as being weak. Standard > muriatic is typically 38% and this is about the most concentrated you > can get at atmospheric pressure and room temp. It is still quite a > strong mineral acid. > > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at > 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > > > > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > > > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell > LOL. > > > jesus, that sounds serious. > > > > I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough > on the > > seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous > (muriatic is > > already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush > that you > > can get at any parts store works well, though. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > Bloomington, IN > > > > --------------------------------- > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > Try it now. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16852|16803|2008-03-07 15:08:16|Carl Anderson|Re: Anyone know where to get a seizing iron?|James, It is a tool to do wire seizings. When you get to the point of rigging your boat you will probably encounter this. I might have found them at Brion Toss's web site. He is a foremost yacht rigger in the Washington area. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com James Pronk wrote: > > > Hello Carl > Just wondering what a seizing iron is? James. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Looking for a seizing iron to do my rigging. > > Gotta make the eyes on the end of the 1X7 and need a seizing iron to > do > > that properly. > > Any advise on making your own (size, material, etc.) would be > appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Carl > > > > | 16853|16853|2008-03-08 03:13:15|Paul J. Thompson|SGC 2000 Marine SSB Radio - Input sought.|Does anyone have any experience of this SSB? I have been offered one for what sees to me a good price (NZ$500). I know it is an old unit, this particular one however have never been to sea as it was used at a shore base. You might ask why a deaf guy would want a SSB, but I am thinking of weather fax and sending email. I have a Trimble Galaxy Inmarsat C and like it, but it can be very expensive to operate. -- Regards, Paul J. 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A quick browse of the web shows that a few people have had problems, but most love it. It can NOT be run full power for Pactor due to Duty cycle but will work. As far as using it while deaf, get a Ham license and you have PSK31 and RTTY and for digital modes you can do besides Pactor, WEFAX and SSTV. And some deaf people even can copy CW (morse code) with the computer or manually using a Sound operated light. Good luck and great cruising... Tom Popp - KA0TP >SGC 2000 Marine SSB Radio - Input sought. >Posted by: "Paul J. Thompson" _pault@..._ (mailto:pault@...) lachica31 >Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:13 am (PST) >Does anyone have any experience of this SSB? I have been offered one for >what sees to me a good price (NZ$500). I know it is an old unit, this >particular one however have never been to sea as it was used at a shore >base. > >You might ask why a deaf guy would want a SSB, but I am thinking of >weather fax and sending email. I have a Trimble Galaxy Inmarsat C and >like it, but it can be very expensive to operate. > >Regards, > >Paul J. Thompson >Deaf Sailor **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16859|16853|2008-03-08 19:30:40|brentswain38|SGC 2000 Marine SSB Radio - Input sought.|My SGC tuner didn't last long. Neither did those of friends I met in the South Pacific. I've heard their radios are much worse. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, TDPOPP@... wrote: > > Local Friends own some of the other SGC products and are real happy. A quick > browse of the web shows that a few people have had problems, but most love > it. > It can NOT be run full power for Pactor due to Duty cycle but will work. > > As far as using it while deaf, get a Ham license and you have PSK31 and RTTY > and for digital modes you can do besides Pactor, WEFAX and SSTV. And some > deaf people even can copy CW (morse code) with the computer or manually using a > Sound operated light. > > Good luck and great cruising... > > Tom Popp - KA0TP > > > >SGC 2000 Marine SSB Radio - Input sought. > >Posted by: "Paul J. Thompson" _pault@..._ > (mailto:pault@...) lachica31 > >Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:13 am (PST) > >Does anyone have any experience of this SSB? I have been offered one for > >what sees to me a good price (NZ$500). I know it is an old unit, this > >particular one however have never been to sea as it was used at a shore > >base. > > > >You might ask why a deaf guy would want a SSB, but I am thinking of > >weather fax and sending email. I have a Trimble Galaxy Inmarsat C and > >like it, but it can be very expensive to operate. > > > >Regards, > > > >Paul J. Thompson > >Deaf Sailor > > > > > **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & > Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16861|16838|2008-03-08 19:33:18|brentswain38|Re: Flushing Diesel Engine Heat Exchanger- any Mechs here?|Use keel cooling and there is no salt water side. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" wrote: > > in many years of boat repair I have used the muratic acid flush many > times. I only use it on cast iron raw water cooled engines as the > commercial stuff will not touch heavy rust scale. It will however > raise hell with weak heat exchangers that are on the way out. > no need to flush the fresh water side of a properly maintained engine. > on the salt water side it is best to open up the heat exchanger and > rod out the passages. > mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > If you put the outlet of your header tank right below the fill, you > > can stich a hose barb on the end of a pipe in it and hook ahose to > > it, and easily flush the engine that way. It is also a good way to > > force antifreeze in and airbubbles out. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones > > wrote: > > > > > > I never really thought of muriatic acid as being weak. Standard > > muriatic is typically 38% and this is about the most concentrated you > > can get at atmospheric pressure and room temp. It is still quite a > > strong mineral acid. > > > > > > Ben Okopnik wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2008 at > > 11:15:28PM -0000, seer wrote: > > > > > > > > one of the cummins truck guys is telling me to run 50/50 muriatic > > > > acid/water thru the thing for ten minutes then flush like hell > > LOL. > > > > jesus, that sounds serious. > > > > > > I don't know that you really need muriatic - could be a bit rough > > on the > > > seals at the pump, although 50/50 doesn't sound horrendous > > (muriatic is > > > already pretty weak to start with.) The standard radiator flush > > that you > > > can get at any parts store works well, though. > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > > > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > > > Bloomington, IN > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 16862|16862|2008-03-08 19:56:41|Doug|Diesel Question|I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer weather. So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, finding none. The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. Here is a photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any problems. Does todays diesel age? Thanks --Doug www.submarineboat.com http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG| 16863|16862|2008-03-08 20:34:35|Tom Mann|Re: Diesel Question|Looking at the picture that sure aint diesel, diesel now days is pretty close to clear unless its off road in witch case there is a red die in it Tom On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Doug wrote: > I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine > that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 > tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. > I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the > 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so > that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the > freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died > on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little > Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer > weather. > > So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, > finding none. > > The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel > was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter > or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran > diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that > came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 > part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below > that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like > the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. > > Here is a photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > > We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any > problems. Does todays diesel age? > > Thanks --Doug > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16864|16862|2008-03-08 21:24:23|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Question|I've seen the red stuff for the first time last summer when we were on a boat in Bellingham, WA. ? I thing the diesel I purchased came out of the pump with a green but I don't it was the florescent green? I have today.?? Wish now I had been paying closer attention, but I was trying to stay warm.?? I've seen some green bio-diesel, but I know I didn't buy that. This stuff looks more like anti-freeze.? --Doug -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 8 Mar 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Question Looking at the picture that sure aint diesel, diesel now days is pretty close to clear unless its off road in witch case there is a red die in it Tom On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Doug wrote: > I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine > that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 > tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. > I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the > 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so > that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the > freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died > on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little > Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer > weather. > > So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, > finding none. > > The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel > was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter > or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran > diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that > came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 > part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below > that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like > the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. > > Here is a photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > > We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any > problems. Does todays diesel age? > > Thanks --Doug > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16865|16862|2008-03-09 18:03:33|Carl Anderson|Re: Diesel Question|I would second the thought that what you have is diesel/antifreeze mixture. Hard to say how that got in the fuel system. Best to drain the tank & purge all the fuel lines w/new filters all around then refill & see what you get at that point. Carl Doug wrote: > > > I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine > that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 > tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. > I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the > 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so > that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the > freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died > on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little > Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer > weather. > > So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, > finding none. > > The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel > was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter > or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran > diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that > came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 > part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below > that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like > the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. > > Here is a photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > > We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any > problems. Does todays diesel age? > > Thanks --Doug > www.submarineboat.com > > http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > > | 16866|16862|2008-03-09 18:38:42|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel Question|After operating a radiator shop for 5 years I would agree it looks like antifreeze. ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2008 2:03:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Question I would second the thought that what you have is diesel/antifreeze mixture. Hard to say how that got in the fuel system. Best to drain the tank & purge all the fuel lines w/new filters all around then refill & see what you get at that point. Carl Doug wrote: > > > I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine > that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 > tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. > I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the > 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so > that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the > freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died > on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little > Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer > weather. > > So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, > finding none. > > The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel > was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter > or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran > diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that > came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 > part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below > that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like > the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. > > Here is a photo: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ sub/images/ diesel.JPG > > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > > We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any > problems. Does todays diesel age? > > Thanks --Doug > www.submarineboat. com > > http://www.submarin eboat.com/ sub/images/ diesel.JPG > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16867|16862|2008-03-10 01:38:12|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Question|Carl and Aaron; Thanks for your input it is very helpful because you have confirmed what the mechanic at the truck stop suspected.? I took a second sample from the fuel filter. You can see a new photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG? The sample on the right came from the fuel filter. It's cloudy he says because of water.? I confirmed that my intentionally mixing some water in.? Some green is normal because that is the way they die diesel in this neck of the woods, but some of the green and that green slime in the bottom of the sample is defiantly antifreeze. When I told the mechanic this was a Cat 3116 he immediately asked if it had used more coolant lately.? The reason for it is that the injectors are mechanical.? They work much like the intake and exhaust valves that are beside them.? A rocker arm compresses the fuel that is then injected into the cylinder.? The fuel is delivered to each injector through a passage that is drilled though the center of the head.?? The coolant too of course travels through the head and actually passes around each injector that is sealed only by a thin sleeve and a couple of o-rings.? My guess is that an o-ring or sleeve is shot and once the coolant got pressurized enough it pushed into the fuel passage and followed the return path to the tank.? With some water in the fuel the engine was hard to start, but once the tank had an inch of antifreeze in the bottom, then nothing but antifreeze was being delivered to the engine and she died completely. I have cleaned out the tank and once I flush the lines, I'll direct the return line to a beer bottle, leave the radiator cap off to avoid coolant pressure and then drive her around until I have my gantry built when and can then pull the engine. I knew this engine had problems when I got the truck. The price was way too low for there not to be.? I guess it will be nice to learn how to fix the wost thing that can happen that can actually be fixed without pulling the engine out of a boat.? Thanks again Doug J Tulsa, OK ? -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 5:38 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Question After operating a radiator shop for 5 years I would agree it looks like antifreeze. ----- Original Message ---- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2008 2:03:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Diesel Question I would second the thought that what you have is diesel/antifreeze mixture. Hard to say how that got in the fuel system. Best to drain the tank & purge all the fuel lines w/new filters all around then refill & see what you get at that point. Carl Doug wrote: > > > I purchased a GMC Topkick with a 170HP Caterpillar 3116 diesel engine > that might be the engine that ends up in our sailboat. I has a 1/4 > tank when I picked it up and it started with difficulty as advertised. > I filled it up when I got it off the lot and drove it ran fine on the > 100 mile trip home until I got into Tulsa and then it lost power so > that I could only make 20 mph tops. Raining, cold, nighttime, on the > freeway doing 20; you get the picture. A mile from the house it died > on the exit ramp and refused to start. We towed it in with our little > Mazda B2000, and it has set for the last 3 months waiting for warmer > weather. > > So today I pressurized the fuel tank and soap tested for air leaks, > finding none. > > The disconnected the return line from the tank and checked that fuel > was making it back. Only a small trickle did so I suspect the filter > or pump at this point. However it's been a long time since I ran > diesel equipment and the fuel is not what I remember. The stuff that > came out was florescent green and has a surface layer of less than 1 > part that is milky white with a smaller layer of dirty white below > that. The surface layer burns like diesel but it does not smell like > the diesel I remember, it is much weaker. > > Here is a photo: http://www.submarin eboat.com/ sub/images/ diesel.JPG > > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > > We use to run diesel in tractors that was years old and never any > problems. Does todays diesel age? > > Thanks --Doug > www.submarineboat. com > > http://www.submarin eboat.com/ sub/images/ diesel.JPG > > > __________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16868|16862|2008-03-10 11:41:44|Ray|Re: Diesel Question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: >> > Here is a photo: http://www.submarineboat.com/sub/images/diesel.JPG > > Should diesel look like this or should I dump this out, flush the tank > and lines, replace the filter and start with a fresh batch? > Doug - Looks like antifreeze to me - if this came from the fuel-system, I'd suspect a blown headgasket, which also coincides w/the hard-start and power-loss symptoms you described. Do a leak-down test (put airpressure into the cylinders, w/a pressure gauge, and see of the cylinders hold pressure. If not - listen to the intake and exhaust to see if you hear the pressurized air escaping, and also look for bubbles under the radiator cap. HTH - Ray| 16869|16869|2008-03-10 12:06:57|Martin Demers|36ft steel sheets VS BS36|Hi, When one built a BS36 using two 36ft steel sheets, is there a certain lost in the lenght of the sheets hence the lenght of the boat, when curving the sheets to get the shape of the two half hull. Martin.| 16870|16862|2008-03-10 15:35:58|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Diesel Question|Thanks Ray, thats a good idea.? I guess I can do that through the glow plug ports, if I can find them.? :)?? --Doug J Doug - Looks like antifreeze to me - if this came from the fuel-system, I'd suspect a blown headgasket, which also coincides w/the hard-start and power-loss symptoms you described. Do a leak-down test (put airpressure into the cylinders, w/a pressure gauge, and see of the cylinders hold pressure. If not - listen to the intake and exhaust to see if you hear the pressurized air escaping, and also look for bubbles under the radiator cap. HTH - Ray ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16871|16862|2008-03-10 15:49:45|Ray|Re: Diesel Question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > > Thanks Ray, thats a good idea.? I guess I can do that through the glow plug ports, if I can find them.? :)?? --Doug J > > Doug - > I've used the injector ports - rotate engine so valves are closed, made an air-line fitting w/the same threads as the injector, put 200psi into the cylinder and watched the gauge to see if it held. If it didn't - put more air in, and watch/listen to see where it's going.| 16872|16872|2008-03-10 22:10:45|jameshawk99|aluminum plate thickness on alex's 39|Curious about what thickness of aluminum used on the aluminum hull in Alex's 39 in picture. Can I mix the side wall to thicker plate on bottom for strength or should I use one thickness for whole. Did you use 5086 for outer shell ? Anyone ? thanks------Jim| 16873|16869|2008-03-11 05:30:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|Martin, I used 12 metre (40') lengths and there was a bit left over to trim around the transom. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > Hi, > > When one built a BS36 using two 36ft steel sheets, is there a certain lost in the lenght of > the sheets hence the lenght of the boat, when curving the sheets to get the shape of the > two half hull. > > Martin. > | 16874|16869|2008-03-11 05:38:20|James|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|Ted , was that in uk , and where did you get them from ? I`m in N scotland , very near to oil-rig building yards , and one would think I was asking for frankincense when I phone stockists . James On 3/11/08, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Martin, > > I used 12 metre (40') lengths and there was a bit left over to trim > around the transom. > > Regards, > > Ted > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , > "Martin Demers" > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > When one built a BS36 using two 36ft steel sheets, is there a > certain lost in the lenght of > > the sheets hence the lenght of the boat, when curving the sheets > to get the shape of the > > two half hull. > > > > Martin. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16875|16869|2008-03-11 07:40:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|James, I had to weld two 6 metre sheets together, which is best avoided. I nearly got 12 metre sheets from a stockholder in Birkenhead, but they had sold out when I went to order and as they were a job lot that they had bought from Spain they had no more and were not replacing them. They had 6 mm and up in 12 metre sheets, but that would be too heavy. I tried all the stockholders I knew, especially trying the ones that decoiled, but to no avail and I asked them if they knew who could supply but again no luck. There could wll be someone out there who supplies the longer sheets but it is too late for mine. Regards, Ted| 16876|16869|2008-03-11 18:42:07|martin demers|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|Hi Ted, I asked my question without knowing first what the plans for the BS 36 required, presuming the use of two 36ft steel sheets. From your answer I can guess that the plans ask for longer then 36ft steel sheets to compensate for the curve along the lenght of the hull. Martin ________________________________ > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > From: tedstone@... > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:40:03 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36 > > > James, > > I had to weld two 6 metre sheets together, which is best avoided. I > nearly got 12 metre sheets from a stockholder in Birkenhead, but they > had sold out when I went to order and as they were a job lot that they > had bought from Spain they had no more and were not replacing them. > They had 6 mm and up in 12 metre sheets, but that would be too heavy. > I tried all the stockholders I knew, especially trying the ones that > decoiled, but to no avail and I asked them if they knew who could > supply but again no luck. There could wll be someone out there who > supplies the longer sheets but it is too late for mine. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > _________________________________________________________________ Créez un bouton pratique pour que vos amis vous ajoutent à leur liste! Cliquez-ici! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/217| 16877|16869|2008-03-12 06:59:20|sae140|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, martin demers wrote: > > > Hi Ted, > > I asked my question without knowing first what the plans for the BS 36 required, presuming the use of two 36ft steel sheets. > From your answer I can guess that the plans ask for longer then 36ft steel sheets to compensate for the curve along the lenght of the hull. > > > Martin > Hi Martin - I think you'll find the 36 footer measures out at around 35.5 feet. Colin| 16878|16878|2008-03-12 14:15:05|mr_lugnuts_2007|Brent Swain plans|I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts| 16879|16869|2008-03-12 14:43:23|Paul Wilson|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|Hi Martin, The sheets are 36 feet. You lose a bit by having the curve of the hull and gain a bit with the curve in the transom. The end result is a length of boat just under 36 feet. There is a materials list in the files section of the group website. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: martin demers To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:40:42 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36 Hi Ted, I asked my question without knowing first what the plans for the BS 36 required, presuming the use of two 36ft steel sheets. From your answer I can guess that the plans ask for longer then 36ft steel sheets to compensate for the curve along the lenght of the hull. Martin ____________ _________ _________ __ > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > From: tedstone@globalnet. co.uk > Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:40:03 +0000 > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36 > > > James, > > I had to weld two 6 metre sheets together, which is best avoided. I > nearly got 12 metre sheets from a stockholder in Birkenhead, but they > had sold out when I went to order and as they were a job lot that they > had bought from Spain they had no more and were not replacing them. > They had 6 mm and up in 12 metre sheets, but that would be too heavy. > I tried all the stockholders I knew, especially trying the ones that > decoiled, but to no avail and I asked them if they knew who could > supply but again no luck. There could wll be someone out there who > supplies the longer sheets but it is too late for mine. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Créez un bouton pratique pour que vos amis vous ajoutent à leur liste! Cliquez-ici! http://g.msn ca/ca55/217 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16880|16878|2008-03-12 15:58:13|Ronnie Foster|Re: Brent Swain plans|If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does I sure haven't been able to find it. Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16881|16878|2008-03-12 16:11:32|JFisher|Re: Brent Swain plans|To order from Brent you send the correct $$ to the address in the files section and he sends back the stuff. Not the most orthodox way of ordering but it works. BTW I have ordered 2 books and a set of plans from Bent with no problems and quick delivery. John From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronnie Foster Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does I sure haven't been able to find it. Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16882|16878|2008-03-12 16:19:00|Ronnie Foster|Re: Brent Swain plans|John, If I new the cost and where the files were so I could get the address I would have done so months ago. That's my problem. Sorry to be so ignorant about things like this. Computers and web sites are at best still confusing to me. Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JFisher Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:11 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans To order from Brent you send the correct $$ to the address in the files section and he sends back the stuff. Not the most orthodox way of ordering but it works. BTW I have ordered 2 books and a set of plans from Bent with no problems and quick delivery. John From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronnie Foster Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:58 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does I sure haven't been able to find it. Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ att.net _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16883|16878|2008-03-12 16:28:21|polaris041|Re: Brent Swain plans|Here you go. I found this by using the search facility. Typed in "brents book", then scrolled down the list of posts that came up till I found this snip in a post . Hope it helps. > > Brent sells a book - here's how to get it: > > To reach Brent by mail, write to: > > > > 3798 Laurel Drive, > > Royston, British Columbia, > > Canada > > V0R-2V0 > > > > To order a copy of Brent's book > > "How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > > pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$7 > > for postage to the above address. Orders within > > Canada are $5 shipping. > > > > International orders are $20 USD and $12 USD shipping.--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > John, > > > > If I new the cost and where the files were so I could get the address I > would have done so months ago. That's my problem. Sorry to be so ignorant > about things like this. Computers and web sites are at best still confusing > to me. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of JFisher > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:11 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > To order from Brent you send the correct $$ to the address in the files > section and he sends back the stuff. Not the most orthodox way of ordering > but it works. > > BTW I have ordered 2 books and a set of plans from Bent with no problems and > quick delivery. > > John > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ronnie Foster > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:58 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@ att.net > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > ] On > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16884|16878|2008-03-12 17:04:38|mr_lugnuts_2007|Re: Brent Swain plans|Ronnie, When you're on the homepage of origamiboats, on the left hand side of the screen you'll see a heading called "Members Only". Under that heading, you'll see "Post", and under that, "Files". If you click on "Files" and look through them, you'll find Brent's contact info and pricing. Hope that helps. Lugnuts --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16885|16878|2008-03-12 17:18:23|Ronnie Foster|Re: Brent Swain plans|Thank you so very much! Now I can place an order. Thanks Let Me Know, Ronnie Foster A.S.T. Systems, Inc. 18570 Van Road Houston, Texas 77049 Phone: (281)456-0082 Fax: (281) 456-0083 Cell: (713) 829-4601 E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain plans Ronnie, When you're on the homepage of origamiboats, on the left hand side of the screen you'll see a heading called "Members Only". Under that heading, you'll see "Post", and under that, "Files". If you click on "Files" and look through them, you'll find Brent's contact info and pricing. Hope that helps. Lugnuts --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16887|16869|2008-03-12 18:19:08|brentswain38|Re: 36ft steel sheets VS BS36|The curve of the transom makes up for some giving an overall hull length of 35 ft 5 inches Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > Hi, > > When one built a BS36 using two 36ft steel sheets, is there a certain lost in the lenght of > the sheets hence the lenght of the boat, when curving the sheets to get the shape of the > two half hull. > > Martin. > | 16888|16872|2008-03-12 18:20:03|brentswain38|Re: aluminum plate thickness on alex's 39|5086 1/4 inch for the hull Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Curious about what thickness of aluminum used on the aluminum hull in > Alex's 39 in picture. Can I mix the side wall to thicker plate on > bottom for strength or should I use one thickness for whole. Did you > use 5086 for outer shell ? Anyone ? > > thanks------Jim > | 16889|16878|2008-03-12 18:23:17|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain plans|For plans for the 36 , send $350 to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 For a book , send $20 plus $7 for postage to the US to the same address. Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16890|16890|2008-03-12 19:14:09|kingsknight4life|surface area of the 36 footer|Hi Does anyone out there know the surface area of the 36 footer? It sure would help in estimating how much foam and paint one needs to complete a hull. Rowland PS Carl since you were on of the last ones to complete a boat I'm assuming you have a pretty good idea?| 16891|104|2008-03-12 19:35:42|kingsknight4life|Paint|Has anyone looked into using ceram-kote 54? The two girls from that "big boat project" page used it and recommended it. They used it and seemed satisified with the results. Being that I work and live in "Oil country" as they call it here, I see it around quite a bit. It is used in the oil and gas industries, for coating pipe, paint off shore oil platforms and other things. I delivered some huge pump parts (600 lb ea) that were about to be coated with the stuff. I talked to the guy doing the coating and they said it was great stuff and really tough. The U of A had been using it on its parts for the h2o treatment plant for over 3 yrs. continuous immersion, with no signs of failure. This is of course either fresh water or greywater, no salt, AFAIK. Only warning was a clean blast is essential, although they do have a surface tolerant paint too, that doesn't require a white metal blast. This lead me to track down the supplier in town and ask a few questions. The main rep wasn't in but I managed to "corner" on of the guys in the shop. He showed me some samples and I was impressed! One sample was on AL+ plate (3"x4") I bent the piece back and forth around 15 times and no cracking. Other piece I put on a bench and smashed it with a hammer, NO effect! I then took a quarter, a file and a piece of aluminum plate, to the sample. The first two scratched it but not through to bare metal, the third barely marked it and the corner of the aluminum plate I was using started to dog ear. wow! This stuff also needs no primer, chemically bonds to itself and has a really quick recoat time. It can also be brushed, rolled or sprayed on. Downside is probably around $200/gal. Coverage is 125 sq. ft/gal. It is tough yet very flexible and it looks to be tougher than rust grip and rust bullet. Ths is probably due to the fact it contains ceramic microbeads. I know it insulates electrically because of the ceramics but I wonder if it also does so thermally? has anyone out there have any history or knowoledge of this stuff. I'll post a link so you guys can check it out. Rowland http://ceram-kote.com/| 16892|16890|2008-03-12 20:17:36|Carl Anderson|Re: surface area of the 36 footer|Rowland, As to the surface area I don't know exactly what it is. I have Roy at Independent shipwrights do the foaming. As for the painting, it took nearly 20 gallons of latex to cover the foam. (look for the free stuff at the recycle yards) Carl kingsknight4life wrote: > > > Hi > Does anyone out there know the surface area of the 36 footer? It sure > would help in estimating how much foam and paint one needs to complete > a hull. > Rowland > > PS Carl since you were on of the last ones to complete a boat I'm > assuming you have a pretty good idea? > > | 16893|104|2008-03-13 00:46:18|jim_both|Re: Paint|I found a reference to it at Sailnet: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/41091-ceramkote.html Nnot a whole lot of information. i was going to use it for my propeller... Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Has anyone looked into using ceram-kote 54? The two girls from > that "big boat project" page used it and recommended it. They used > it and seemed satisified with the results. Being that I work and > live in "Oil country" as they call it here, I see it around quite a > bit. It is used in the oil and gas industries, for coating pipe, > paint off shore oil platforms and other things. > > I delivered some huge pump parts (600 lb ea) that were about to be > coated with the stuff. I talked to the guy doing the coating and they > said it was great stuff and really tough. The U of A had been using > it on its parts for the h2o treatment plant for over 3 yrs. > continuous immersion, with no signs of failure. This is of course > either fresh water or greywater, no salt, AFAIK. Only warning was a > clean blast is essential, although they do have a surface tolerant > paint too, that doesn't require a white metal blast. > > This lead me to track down the supplier in town and ask a few > questions. The main rep wasn't in but I managed to "corner" on of the > guys in the shop. He showed me some samples and I was impressed! One > sample was on AL+ plate (3"x4") I bent the piece back and forth > around 15 times and no cracking. Other piece I put on a bench and > smashed it with a hammer, NO effect! I then took a quarter, a file > and a piece of aluminum plate, to the sample. The first two scratched > it but not through to bare metal, the third barely marked it and the > corner of the aluminum plate I was using started to dog ear. wow! > > This stuff also needs no primer, chemically bonds to itself and has a > really quick recoat time. It can also be brushed, rolled or sprayed > on. Downside is probably around $200/gal. Coverage is 125 sq. ft/ gal. > It is tough yet very flexible and it looks to be tougher than rust > grip and rust bullet. Ths is probably due to the fact it contains > ceramic microbeads. I know it insulates electrically because of the > ceramics but I wonder if it also does so thermally? > > has anyone out there have any history or knowoledge of this stuff. > I'll post a link so you guys can check it out. > Rowland > > http://ceram-kote.com/ > | 16894|16878|2008-03-13 08:47:38|Jim Williams|Re: Brent Swain plans|When you say send $27 for the book and shippingdoes that include personal checks? I read thata previous customer actually sent cash by mail and did not know if that was required. I only ask because I sent a $27 check over three weeks ago to the listed address and my bank statement as of today does not show it has been deposited, yet.Jim WilliamsCharleston, SC, USA _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16895|16895|2008-03-13 19:26:15|Martin Demers|BS 40 beam and draft|Hi, I would like to know the beam, cabin head room and draft of a BS 40. Thanks, Martin.| 16896|16878|2008-03-13 19:35:48|Carl Volkwein|Re: Brent Swain plans|I can't tell from this e-mail if it says 35.00 or 350.00 thanks, Carl brentswain38 wrote: For plans for the 36 , send $350 to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 For a book , send $20 plus $7 for postage to the US to the same address. Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" wrote: > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've been > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one would > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. If he does > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > > > Let Me Know, > > Ronnie Foster > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > 18570 Van Road > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his book. > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of town? > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16897|16878|2008-03-13 20:00:14|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Brent Swain plans|It is $350.00 for the BS36 plans. $20 + $7 = $27 for the book. You dont really expect the BS36 plans for $35.00 do you? -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor Carl Volkwein wrote: > I can't tell from this e-mail if it says 35.00 or 350.00 > thanks, Carl > > brentswain38 wrote: For plans for the 36 , send $350 to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada > V0R2V0 > For a book , send $20 plus $7 for postage to the US to the same > address. > Thanks > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie Foster" > wrote: > > > > If you get an answer to this question please forward it to me. I've > been > > trying to do the same thing for months. As popular as Brent is one > would > > think he would have a web site you could order these things from. > If he does > > I sure haven't been able to find it. > > > > > > > > Let Me Know, > > > > Ronnie Foster > > > > A.S.T. Systems, Inc. > > > > 18570 Van Road > > > > Houston, Texas 77049 > > > > Phone: (281)456-0082 > > > > Fax: (281) 456-0083 > > > > Cell: (713) 829-4601 > > > > E-Mail: foster.ronnie@... > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of mr_lugnuts_2007 > > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:13 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain plans > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to order a set of plans from Brent Swain, as well as his > book. > > Is he cruising now? Is someone manning the store if he's out of > town? > > Is the contact info in the "files" section current? Thx. Lugnuts > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 16898|16895|2008-03-13 22:11:12|kingsknight4life|Re: BS 40 beam and draft|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Demers" wrote: > > Hi, > > I would like to know the beam, cabin head room and draft of a BS 40. > > Thanks, Martin. > Beam - 11' 10" Draft - 4'9" (bilge) or 6'5" (fin) headroom - depends where you put the cabin sole but at least 6'2" thats the headroom in the 36, could and probably is more. These figures are from the drawings in the back of Brent's book not the plans so they may or may not be off. the headroom is just a guess. Rowland| 16899|16895|2008-03-13 23:24:18|Gordon Schnell|Re: BS 40 beam and draft|kingsknight4life wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > , "Martin Demers" ...> > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to know the beam, cabin head room and draft of a BS 40. > > > > Thanks, Martin. > > > Beam - 11' 10" > Draft - 4'9" (bilge) or 6'5" (fin) > headroom - depends where you put the cabin sole but at least 6'2" > thats the headroom in the 36, could and probably is more. > > These figures are from the drawings in the back of Brent's book not the > plans so they may or may not be off. the headroom is just a guess. > Rowland > Hey Guys I'm building one...nearly complete. Beam is 12'. Draft is 6'6'" (fin) and headroom is 6'4" ( as stated by Rowland....headroom is variable based on where you place the floor plates (your choice). Hope that helps. Gord > > > | 16900|16895|2008-03-14 00:56:19|kingsknight4life|Re: BS 40 beam and draft|> Hey Guys > I'm building one...nearly complete... > Gord > > > > > > > hey Gord How bout some pics? I rememeber coming to see your boat back when Bev and I lived on our 24 ft. boat at Shelter island and were still thinking about building a Swain boat. Martin if your out there lurking I'd love to see some pics of Prairie Maid too and My Island, Rich. Lol More pics please guys. Rowland| 16901|16878|2008-03-14 08:58:45|Carl Anderson|Re: Brent Swain plans|Jim, Sometimes it is a SLOW process to send mail to Canada. We here in the USA really have the best postal system in the world!! (and tend to expect other countries to have the same, which is not true in the least) Also the clearing times for a check from Canada can again be SLOW. I have deposited a check in a Canadian financial institution and had that alone take 10 days to "clear" my financial institution in the USA. (that was a deposit "in person" while living there) And then there is the fact that Brent lives on his boat so that will cause a time delay again. So I would say to be patient for the book. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Jim Williams wrote: > > > > When you say send $27 for the book and shippingdoes that include > personal checks? I read thata previous customer actually sent cash by > mail and did not know if that was required. I only ask because I sent a > $27 check over three weeks ago to the listed address and my bank > statement as of today does not show it has been deposited, yet.Jim > WilliamsCharleston, SC, USA > > __________________________________________________________ > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get > your "fix". > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16902|16878|2008-03-14 15:16:10|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain plans|I put your book in the mail several days ago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Williams wrote: > > > When you say send $27 for the book and shippingdoes that include personal checks? I read thata previous customer actually sent cash by mail and did not know if that was required. I only ask because I sent a $27 check over three weeks ago to the listed address and my bank statement as of today does not show it has been deposited, yet.Jim WilliamsCharleston, SC, USA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®- get your "fix". > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16903|16878|2008-03-14 21:01:18|mark hamill|Re: Brent Swain plans|Yes, mail to Canada. The snow starts at the border eh and like you need a dogsled thereafter. Course on the west coast we got Carrier Orcas. Unfortunately, all the mail carriers smell strongly of Salmon or seals depending on whether the whales are local or transitory. (Sorry, local humor)| 16904|16878|2008-03-15 10:31:40|Jim Williams|Re: Brent Swain plans|Thanks Brent, With the dollar dropping so fast, I was worried the American postage I used three weeks ago was only enough to get the envelope to Winnipeg. Jim Williams Charleston, SC _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16905|16905|2008-03-15 14:00:45|evanmoonjunk|30' for sale, email correction|Here is the correct email address for Tony, bb-jansky@... Sorry for the mistake...Evan| 16906|16906|2008-03-15 17:33:00|Gary Prebble|Canadian Tire...|...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine charts? Anyone use one? Thanks... Gary| 16907|16878|2008-03-15 17:56:52|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain plans|After ww2 the military officeers were made managers of Canada Post and were ordering employees around like they were generals in the army, ordering them to "Obey Orders ", and being very condescending in the proccess . The government wasn't much different , then or since.Labour relations in Canada Post have been low ever since. They are not about to bust their asses for someone who humiliates them constantly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark hamill" wrote: > > Yes, mail to Canada. The snow starts at the border eh and like you need > a dogsled thereafter. Course on the west coast we got Carrier Orcas. > Unfortunately, all the mail carriers smell strongly of Salmon or seals > depending on whether the whales are local or transitory. (Sorry, local > humor) > | 16908|16906|2008-03-15 18:33:53|Aaron Williams|Re: Canadian Tire...|After having one for 2 years. I would recomend getting something with a bigger screen. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Prebble To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 1:32:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Canadian Tire... ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine charts? Anyone use one? Thanks... Gary ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16909|16906|2008-03-16 09:34:00|Carl Anderson|GPS charts|We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger screen with our laptop. Carl Moonflowerofmoab.com Gary Prebble wrote: > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > charts? Anyone use one? > > Thanks... Gary > > | 16910|16878|2008-03-16 11:44:21|Wally Paine|Re: Postal Services|Mail within the USA may be pretty good and certainly mail (1st class) in the UK seldom takes more than two days BUT mail from the USA to the UK is abysmal taking up to three weeks. Australia and Canada to the U.K. are quicker. The worst I've experienced is Zimbabwe where a Christmas card I sent airmail early in November 2007 was delivered 7th March 2008. Wally Paine --- Carl Anderson wrote: > Jim, > > Sometimes it is a SLOW process to send mail to > Canada. > We here in the USA really have the best postal > system in the world!! > (and tend to expect other countries to have the > same, which is not true > in the least) > > Also the clearing times for a check from Canada can > again be SLOW. > I have deposited a check in a Canadian financial > institution and had > that alone take 10 days to "clear" my financial > institution in the USA. > (that was a deposit "in person" while living there) > > And then there is the fact that Brent lives on his > boat so that will > cause a time delay again. > > So I would say to be patient for the book. > > Carl > MoonflowerOfMoab.com > > > > Jim Williams wrote: > > > > > > > > When you say send $27 for the book and > shippingdoes that include > > personal checks? I read thata previous customer > actually sent cash by > > mail and did not know if that was required. I only > ask because I sent a > > $27 check over three weeks ago to the listed > address and my bank > > statement as of today does not show it has been > deposited, yet.Jim > > WilliamsCharleston, SC, USA > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Need to know the score, the latest news, or you > need your Hotmail®-get > > your "fix". > > http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > | 16911|16906|2008-03-16 13:06:31|Tom Mann|Re: GPS charts|Hello Carl Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay and software and maps are free Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson wrote: > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > screen with our laptop. > > Carl > Moonflowerofmoab.com > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16912|16878|2008-03-16 13:14:02|Ben Okopnik|Re: Postal Services|On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 03:44:10PM +0000, Wally Paine wrote: > Mail within the USA may be pretty good and certainly > mail (1st class) in the UK seldom takes more than two > days BUT mail from the USA to the UK is abysmal taking > up to three weeks. Australia and Canada to the U.K. > are quicker. > > The worst I've experienced is Zimbabwe where a > Christmas card I sent airmail early in November 2007 > was delivered 7th March 2008. Heh. A lady friend of mine from California thought she'd send me something sweet and romantic for Christmas (1997) when I was living in the US Virgin Islands, so she packed a few autumn leaves and flowers into a box and dropped it in the mail. On New Year (1998), I wondered why she had sent me a box of multi-colored mold... :) It turned out that she had been a little annoyed because I hadn't mentioned her present at the time. We had quite a laugh about it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16913|16906|2008-03-16 13:26:40|Carl Anderson|Re: GPS charts|Tom, I probably will go to a lower cost solution once I leave the Pacific NW. Right now I have the Garmin charts for that area loaded on my PC & GPS. I got this setup for using on my Catalina 22 and will use it for now. Just nice to have the room inside the BS36 to set up the laptop & run the software full screen with the GPS plugged into that. Carl Tom Mann wrote: > > > Hello Carl > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > and software and maps are free > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > > wrote: > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > screen with our laptop. > > > > Carl > > Moonflowerofmoab.com > > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16914|16906|2008-03-16 13:30:36|brentswain38|Re: GPS charts|Long before you head out, someone will have offered you charts for the world on a disc. I still wouldn't leave without the paper ones as backup. Many people have photocopied mine. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Tom, > > I probably will go to a lower cost solution once I leave the Pacific NW. > Right now I have the Garmin charts for that area loaded on my PC & GPS. > I got this setup for using on my Catalina 22 and will use it for now. > Just nice to have the room inside the BS36 to set up the laptop & run > the software full screen with the GPS plugged into that. > > Carl > > > Tom Mann wrote: > > > > > > Hello Carl > > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > > and software and maps are free > > Tom > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > > > > wrote: > > > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > > screen with our laptop. > > > > > > Carl > > > Moonflowerofmoab.com > > > > > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > ! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 16915|16906|2008-03-16 14:54:21|Paul Wilson|Re: GPS charts|Hi Tom, I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this when around land or reefs. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts Hello Carl Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay and software and maps are free Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson wrote: > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > screen with our laptop. > > Carl > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16916|16906|2008-03-16 16:39:51|Tom Mann|Re: GPS charts|Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed navagating with it in the 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I would have ended up on shore or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps and took out the varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added gps to my laptop with all the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed it out yet. Trusty compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top > uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this > when around land or reefs. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Hello Carl > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > and software and maps are free > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > screen with our laptop. > > > > Carl > > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16917|16906|2008-03-16 16:48:30|Aaron Williams|Re: GPS charts|The new GPS systems are great. Just remember they are computer and satalite systems based and could fail if the goverments of contries descided to play games with each other. Or get hacked. Not that I am paranoid or anything like that. Basic navagation skills are a must. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:39:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed navagating with it in the 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I would have ended up on shore or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps and took out the varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added gps to my laptop with all the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed it out yet. Trusty compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top > uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this > when around land or reefs. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Hello Carl > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > and software and maps are free > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > screen with our laptop. > > > > Carl > > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16918|16906|2008-03-17 01:17:20|Paul Wilson|Re: GPS charts|Hi Tom, I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I don't think I would ever go as far as say that paper charts are a safer bet. This is a huge subject and I know I am over-simplifying things but I would say that if you had problems with gps before, it was probably a problem with the match-up with the chart system (datum) you had with the gps and the chart system used with the paper charts. Many older paper charts don't translate well to gps because they were never translated for satellite corrections. Its very important to make sure the charts are satellite corrected and then match the datum of the gps to the chart datum. So far, the gps has never lied to me, even before the accuracy improved and I was using an old single channel unit. No one is :) but if asked, my advice for anybody new is to use both gps and older navigation methods all the time, even in good weather when it is not necessarily needed. Its great on a good weather day to enter a waypoint off a chart into a gps, steer to it, and then see if it actually takes you to where you think it should. You do this enough times, and you will learn to trust it when the weather is foul and you can't see a thing. I have seen too many people turn the gps on in a tight situation and then not understand what it's telling them and get into trouble. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 9:39:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed navagating with it in the 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I would have ended up on shore or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps and took out the varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added gps to my laptop with all the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed it out yet. Trusty compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top > uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this > when around land or reefs. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Hello Carl > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > and software and maps are free > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > screen with our laptop. > > > > Carl > > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16919|16906|2008-03-17 06:12:48|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|I make one of the compass roses on the chart one of the way points. It is simple then to get a bearing and distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a suitable (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual record on the chart as to where I am. As a method it integrates well with log, echo sounder and compass. Wally Paine --- Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I > don't think I would ever go as far as say that paper > charts are a safer bet. > > This is a huge subject and I know I am > over-simplifying things but I would say that if you > had problems with gps before, it was probably a > problem with the match-up with the chart system > (datum) you had with the gps and the chart system > used with the paper charts. Many older paper charts > don't translate well to gps because they were never > translated for satellite corrections. Its very > important to make sure the charts are satellite > corrected and then match the datum of the gps to the > chart datum. So far, the gps has never lied to me, > even before the accuracy improved and I was using an > old single channel unit. > > No one is :) but if asked, my advice for anybody new > is to use both gps and older navigation methods all > the time, even in good weather when it is not > necessarily needed. Its great on a good weather > day to enter a waypoint off a chart into a gps, > steer to it, and then see if it actually takes you > to where you think it should. You do this enough > times, and you will learn to trust it when the > weather is foul and you can't see a thing. I have > seen too many people turn the gps on in a tight > situation and then not understand what it's telling > them and get into trouble. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 9:39:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed > navagating with it in the > 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I > would have ended up on shore > or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps > and took out the > varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added > gps to my laptop with all > the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed > it out yet. Trusty > compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson > wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. > You need to have a GPS in > > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer > the boat. Also, a lap top > > uses too much power to be left on all the time. > You will want to do this > > when around land or reefs. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > > > Hello Carl > > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps > reciever runs about $40 on ebay > > and software and maps are free > > Tom > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > > > wrote: > > > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it > works great. > > > We plan on using it with the charting software > displayed on a larger > > > screen with our laptop. > > > > > > Carl > > > Moonflowerofmoab. com moab.com/> > > > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 > to $197 from $329. I am > > > > just wondering about the small map window > being suitable for marine > > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. > comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ > _________ _________ _ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > | 16920|16906|2008-03-17 09:54:24|Ray|Re: GPS charts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > I make one of the compass roses on the chart one of > the way points. It is simple then to get a bearing and > distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a suitable > (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual record > on the chart as to where I am. As a method it > integrates well with log, echo sounder and compass. > > Wally Paine Wally - Maybe I need more coffee before asking - but, I'm having a hard time understanding your suggestion. I'd appreciate it if you'd talk a little more about this - I enjoy hearing others' navigational tricks. Ray| 16921|16906|2008-03-17 11:20:38|Shane Duncan|Re: GPS charts|I have a good friend who works in the Australian defense department as a airborne defense analyst, he basically spends all day simulating various unpleasant scenarios involving china and India, over a few beers one night he told be that both countries have the ability to take out US GPS satellites and in a war these will be the first targets. you cant blow up the sun and stars. ----- Original Message ---- From: Aaron Williams To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:48:28 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts The new GPS systems are great. Just remember they are computer and satalite systems based and could fail if the goverments of contries descided to play games with each other. Or get hacked. Not that I am paranoid or anything like that. Basic navagation skills are a must. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Mann To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:39:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed navagating with it in the 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I would have ended up on shore or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps and took out the varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added gps to my laptop with all the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed it out yet. Trusty compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet Tom On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top > uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this > when around land or reefs. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Hello Carl > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > and software and maps are free > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > screen with our laptop. > > > > Carl > > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16922|16922|2008-03-17 11:45:43|bert andjan|Re: GPS...and celestial|Aaron wrote: " The new GPS systems are great. Just remember they are computer and satalite systems based and could fail if the goverments of contries descided to play games with each other. Or get hacked. Not that I am paranoid or anything like that. Basic navagation skills are a must." I'm just finishing the US Power Squadron navigation course on celestial navigation and its been so interesting and for me quite challenging, but managable. Celestial isn't stressed much anymore but it's one more redundancy for times not only of governments screwing up GPS, but also for power failures on board that do happen (electronics and water aren't always compatible.) Plus I'm learning so much about how this old planet works in realation to the stars, sun, planets, etc. Kind of awe inspiring to be learning celestial. There's a whole universe up there!! I'm not sure if you northern brothers in Canada have access to the USPS, or something even better....but their courses are excellent and inexpensive for the knowledge gained. I never dreamed I could be learning celestial, but the old brain is actually learning it and its a neat accomplishment, giving added tools and joy even if I never have to use it.... All the best, Bert in Michigan ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 16923|16906|2008-03-17 11:52:12|Darren Bos|Re: Canadian Tire...|I have a GPSMap 76 and like it quite a bit. However, I think the screens on all handhelds are too small for effectively using a chart. You have to zoom in and zoom out to get both the big picture and access detailed information. So a larger display or a paper chart is necessary. Personally, I like having the 76 in the cockpit to confirm my navigation via coastal features, but I use paper charts to look for the rocks. It is waterproof and it floats (have tested both). Darren At 02:32 PM 15/03/2008, you wrote: >...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am >just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine >charts? Anyone use one? > >Thanks... Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16924|16906|2008-03-17 13:20:20|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS charts|On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:17:19PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I don't think I > would ever go as far as say that paper charts are a safer bet. > > This is a huge subject and I know I am over-simplifying things but I > would say that if you had problems with gps before, it was probably a > problem with the match-up with the chart system (datum) you had with > the gps and the chart system used with the paper charts. Although it's possible for this to happen, it would be extremely unusual - and if it did, the error would be a constant one (e.g., you'd be 200 miles to the west of the indicated position, for example.) Assuming operator error as the main cause of GPS problems is a *very* dangerous thing to do - especially since it's not so much the satellite system that's at fault but the errors in the mapping software as well as routing programs used. There have been a lot of GPS-related accidents and problems lately (for anyone interested, I suggest checking out the RISKS Digest - an excellent resource for estimation of risks in complex systems), and the top reasons for most of them, from my own informal tally, have been 1) inaccuracy in map representation and 2) lack of 3-D data (e.g., truck drivers in the UK trying to take their rig through a tiny alley in a village because the GPS routed them that way.) The other - and to me, the damning problem - is the fact that it takes a chain of technology (power on one end, satellite-to-ground transmission on the other end, reliability of electronics in the middle) for the GPS to function. For a chart, no such chain exists: everything else can fail, and it will still work. I love my GPS, and use it all the time as I cruise - but I'd never rely on it. As the charts used to say (and some still do), "The prudent mariner will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation". When it comes to sailing, that pretty much completely describes my approach to safety. > So far, the gps has never lied to me, even before > the accuracy improved and I was using an old single channel unit. That would make you truly unusual. :) I've had a modern, multi-channel GPS - one that self-updates continually, has nearly every latest whizbang gadget built in, etc. - tell me "No route exists" when I asked it to get me to an address less than a dozen blocks away. True, it was in a twisty little corner of Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay) - but it *was* in Brooklyn, conjecturally one of the best-mapped areas in the world. A GPS is wonderfully useful - but it's far from perfect, or even reasonably reliable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16925|16925|2008-03-17 13:32:33|jameshawk99|Prop and shaft size|For a 48' aluminum any input for shaft and prop size, deisel gen. set recommends to have 24" triple blade for DC drive ---- has anyone here done this ? This would mean a 24 inch stainless. thanks----Jim| 16926|16906|2008-03-17 13:35:12|Bob|Re: GPS charts|It's safe to assume everybody is thoughtfull about non-electronic backup systems: Having correct maps, chart and instrument practice drills. Murphies Law, you know. But, a moving map GPS for orienting your position near reefs, is fantastic. For example, I've never fished Mille Lacs lake in Minnesota and the latest DNR pdf (2006) of two foot resolution contours put me exactly over the humps with the maps converted with OziExplorer. And finding points in the dark is a no brainer. OziExplorer, an accurate paper or electronic map to scan, and Google Earth to double check landmarks makes mapmaking fun. Regards, Bob --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:17:19PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I don't think I > > would ever go as far as say that paper charts are a safer bet. > > > > This is a huge subject and I know I am over-simplifying things but I > > would say that if you had problems with gps before, it was probably a > > problem with the match-up with the chart system (datum) you had with > > the gps and the chart system used with the paper charts. > > Although it's possible for this to happen, it would be extremely unusual > - and if it did, the error would be a constant one (e.g., you'd be 200 > miles to the west of the indicated position, for example.) Assuming > operator error as the main cause of GPS problems is a *very* dangerous > thing to do - especially since it's not so much the satellite system > that's at fault but the errors in the mapping software as well as > routing programs used. There have been a lot of GPS-related accidents > and problems lately (for anyone interested, I suggest checking out the > RISKS Digest - an excellent resource for estimation of risks in complex > systems), and the top reasons for most of them, from my own informal > tally, have been 1) inaccuracy in map representation and 2) lack of 3-D > data (e.g., truck drivers in the UK trying to take their rig through a > tiny alley in a village because the GPS routed them that way.) > > The other - and to me, the damning problem - is the fact that it takes a > chain of technology (power on one end, satellite-to-ground transmission > on the other end, reliability of electronics in the middle) for the GPS > to function. For a chart, no such chain exists: everything else can > fail, and it will still work. > > I love my GPS, and use it all the time as I cruise - but I'd never rely > on it. As the charts used to say (and some still do), "The prudent > mariner will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation". When it > comes to sailing, that pretty much completely describes my approach to > safety. > > > So far, the gps has never lied to me, even before > > the accuracy improved and I was using an old single channel unit. > > That would make you truly unusual. :) I've had a modern, multi- channel > GPS - one that self-updates continually, has nearly every latest > whizbang gadget built in, etc. - tell me "No route exists" when I asked > it to get me to an address less than a dozen blocks away. True, it was > in a twisty little corner of Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay) - but it *was* in > Brooklyn, conjecturally one of the best-mapped areas in the world. > > A GPS is wonderfully useful - but it's far from perfect, or even > reasonably reliable. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16927|16922|2008-03-17 13:38:05|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS...and celestial|On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:44:28AM -0700, bert andjan wrote: > > I'm just finishing the US Power Squadron navigation course on > celestial navigation and its been so interesting and for me quite > challenging, but managable. Celestial isn't stressed much anymore but > it's one more redundancy for times not only of governments screwing up > GPS, but also for power failures on board that do happen (electronics > and water aren't always compatible.) Plus I'm learning so much about > how this old planet works in realation to the stars, sun, planets, > etc. Kind of awe inspiring to be learning celestial. There's a whole > universe up there!! I highly recommend Hewitt Schlereth's "Commonsense Celestial Navigation" to anyone who is interested in learning this fine and fun art. His reduction process is much faster and easier than the standard, and his perpetual almanac, etc. make this book the only reference you need to have on hand to reduce a Sun or a star shot. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16928|16906|2008-03-17 13:41:40|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS charts|On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 01:54:22PM -0000, Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > > > I make one of the compass roses on the chart one of > > the way points. It is simple then to get a bearing and > > distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a suitable > > (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual record > > on the chart as to where I am. As a method it > > integrates well with log, echo sounder and compass. > > > > Wally Paine > > Wally - > > Maybe I need more coffee before asking - but, I'm having a hard time > understanding your suggestion. I'd appreciate it if you'd talk a little > more about this - I enjoy hearing others' navigational tricks. As I understood it, Wally snaps a GPS waypoint every time he sees a rose floating on the ocean... :) Perhaps Wally will explain it in more detail in his own words. It's similar to what I do when I'm sailing near land, where I'll enter a visible landmark as a waypoint - that gives me a GPS bearing to it which I can cross-check via my hand-held compass. Wally's method is useful in the open ocean, although (as I understand it from his explanation above) it would require just a little more calculation/chartwork. A very nice tool to have in your mental toolbox. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16929|16906|2008-03-17 14:10:54|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|--- Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine > wrote: > > > > I make one of the compass roses on the chart one > of > > the way points. It is simple then to get a bearing > and > > distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a > suitable > > (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual > record > > on the chart as to where I am. As a method it > > integrates well with log, echo sounder and > compass. > > > > Wally Paine > > Wally - > > Maybe I need more coffee before asking - but, I'm > having a hard time > understanding your suggestion. I'd appreciate it if > you'd talk a little > more about this - I enjoy hearing others' > navigational tricks. > > > Ray > > > Hello Ray, I use the half sized Imray charts (four cover my usual cruising area). I purchase a long ruler for each chart sufficient to reach across the diameter of the compass rose printed on the chart to anywhere else on the chart. I stick some masking tape along one edge of the rule and mark a scale, which I get from the chart, in nautical miles along it. The origin of the scale needs to be a little distance from the end of the rule so that when it is on the centre of the rose the rule extends across the whole diameter. And also label the rule with the name of the chart and the position of the compass rose on it. On the GPS (Up to now I've been using a ancient Magellan, now defunct) I make the centre of the compass rose a way point. Then by looking at the appropriate screen you can read from the GPS the bearing and the distance from your position to the compass rose. If you place the rule so that the origin (of the scale) is at the centre of the rose you can swing the rule round so that the extension cuts the edge of the rose at the appropriate bearing. You then read the distance off on the scale and mark your position on the chart. To facilitate this I glue a bit of plastic to the rule at the origin of the scale which enables me to pin the rule to the chart (actually to the board under it) so that the edge rotates about the centre of the rose. My apologies for a very clumsy description. In practice it is very quick and it is difficult to make mistakes. Wally| 16930|16906|2008-03-17 14:41:51|Gary Prebble|Re: Canadian Tire...|Hi Darren... For the Garmin GPS Map 76 do you have to download the charts for British Columbia from their website? I have nobletec and a notebook computer aboard but I would like to have a handheld as a back up and this one seems a good price. Regards.. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > I have a GPSMap 76 and like it quite a bit. However, I think the > screens on all handhelds are too small for effectively using a > chart. You have to zoom in and zoom out to get both the big picture > and access detailed information. So a larger display or a paper > chart is necessary. Personally, I like having the 76 in the cockpit > to confirm my navigation via coastal features, but I use paper charts > to look for the rocks. It is waterproof and it floats (have tested both). > > Darren > > At 02:32 PM 15/03/2008, you wrote: > > >...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > >just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > >charts? Anyone use one? > > > >Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16931|16878|2008-03-17 15:56:03|jw2nsc|Re: Brent Swain plans|Got it today! Who says the Canadian Post is slow? Jim W. Charleston, SC --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I put your book in the mail several days ago. > Brent > | 16932|16878|2008-03-17 16:51:23|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Postal Services|Dont usually have any problem with the stuf I've bought in the states off ebay,or with getting my copy of Brent's book cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16933|16922|2008-03-17 18:32:07|brentswain38|Re: GPS...and celestial|The Europeans have been sending up GPS Birds in case Uncle Sam meses with its own. Theirs are compatible with our units. A noon site is a simple thing to learn. I can teach people how to do one in a couple of minutes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, bert andjan wrote: > > Aaron wrote: " The new GPS systems are great. Just remember they are computer and satalite systems based and could fail if the goverments of contries descided to play games with each other. Or get hacked. Not that I am paranoid or anything like that. Basic navagation skills are a must." > > I'm just finishing the US Power Squadron navigation course on celestial navigation and its been so interesting and for me quite challenging, but managable. Celestial isn't stressed much anymore but it's one more redundancy for times not only of governments screwing up GPS, but also for power failures on board that do happen (electronics and water aren't always compatible.) Plus I'm learning so much about how this old planet works in realation to the stars, sun, planets, etc. Kind of awe inspiring to be learning celestial. There's a whole universe up there!! > > I'm not sure if you northern brothers in Canada have access to the USPS, or something even better....but their courses are excellent and inexpensive for the knowledge gained. I never dreamed I could be learning celestial, but the old brain is actually learning it and its a neat accomplishment, giving added tools and joy even if I never have to use it.... > > All the best, Bert in Michigan > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > | 16934|16906|2008-03-17 18:33:39|brentswain38|Re: GPS charts|Cruising without both would be foolish. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I don't think I would ever go as far as say that paper charts are a safer bet. > > This is a huge subject and I know I am over-simplifying things but I would say that if you had problems with gps before, it was probably a problem with the match-up with the chart system (datum) you had with the gps and the chart system used with the paper charts. Many older paper charts don't translate well to gps because they were never translated for satellite corrections. Its very important to make sure the charts are satellite corrected and then match the datum of the gps to the chart datum. So far, the gps has never lied to me, even before the accuracy improved and I was using an old single channel unit. > > No one is :) but if asked, my advice for anybody new is to use both gps and older navigation methods all the time, even in good weather when it is not necessarily needed. Its great on a good weather day to enter a waypoint off a chart into a gps, steer to it, and then see if it actually takes you to where you think it should. You do this enough times, and you will learn to trust it when the weather is foul and you can't see a thing. I have seen too many people turn the gps on in a tight situation and then not understand what it's telling them and get into trouble. > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom Mann > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 9:39:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > Agreed, personaly I dont trust GPS 100%. I tryed navagating with it in the > 90's and if I followed what it was telling me I would have ended up on shore > or rocks. I havnt tryed it sence they upgraded gps and took out the > varyance, I'm sure its more accurate now. I added gps to my laptop with all > the charts of the west coast but I still havnt tryed it out yet. Trusty > compass and paper charts seem to be the safest bet > Tom > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Paul Wilson wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > > > I wouldn't use a lap top for normal navigating. You need to have a GPS in > > the cockpit where it can be seen while you steer the boat. Also, a lap top > > uses too much power to be left on all the time. You will want to do this > > when around land or reefs. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Tom Mann > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 6:06:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts > > > > Hello Carl > > Why not just use laptop for gps, a usb gps reciever runs about $40 on ebay > > and software and maps are free > > Tom > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Carl Anderson > > wrote: > > > > > We have a GPS map 76C with charting & find it works great. > > > We plan on using it with the charting software displayed on a larger > > > screen with our laptop. > > > > > > Carl > > > Moonflowerofmoab. com > > > > > > Gary Prebble wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. I am > > > > just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > > charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16935|16906|2008-03-17 21:32:17|Darren Bos|Re: Canadian Tire...|You have to use Garmin's proprietary BlueCharts for bathymetric data, for BC this would cost about as much as the GPSMap76 itself. The 76Map also only has 8MB of storage space, so if you download detailed maps there can be times when you have to reload maps part way through a trip if you are covering a fair bit of ground. I use paper charts to do my navigation and keep the GPS 76 in the cockpit for checking progress along the course. For longer trips I have waypoints loaded into it to check progress along the way. I find the preloaded garmin basemap (with marine navigational aids such as buoys), or the topographic map series both have sufficient shoreline detail to do this, so the marine charts aren't necessary. The preloaded basemap seems to be accurate for the buoys and beacons I have checked. I used Blue Charts with the 76 at work, but for my personal unit I didn't think it was worth the cost and I just use the basemap or topomap data. Darren At 11:41 AM 17/03/2008, you wrote: >Hi Darren... For the Garmin GPS Map 76 do you have to download the >charts for British Columbia from their website? > >I have nobletec and a notebook computer aboard but I would like to >have a handheld as a back up and this one seems a good price. > >Regards.. Gary > >--- In >origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I have a GPSMap 76 and like it quite a bit. However, I think the > > screens on all handhelds are too small for effectively using a > > chart. You have to zoom in and zoom out to get both the big >picture > > and access detailed information. So a larger display or a paper > > chart is necessary. Personally, I like having the 76 in the >cockpit > > to confirm my navigation via coastal features, but I use paper >charts > > to look for the rocks. It is waterproof and it floats (have tested >both). > > > > Darren > > > > At 02:32 PM 15/03/2008, you wrote: > > > > >...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. >I am > > >just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > >charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > >Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16936|16906|2008-03-17 23:53:06|Don & Karina|Re: Gps|We aren't experts but we used our handheld GPS for lat/longs and uploaded seaclear ll (freeware) on our laptop. We then purchased all the US charts on CD format on ebay ($20.00-a fantastic deal) As we cruised in areas outside of the US charts I made some of my own geo-referenced charts for seaclear using scanned charts and google earth for the UTM coordinates. I tested the set-up using local maps and driving around in my car before I took it out for our cruising holiday. The whole set-up was good as it was using equipment I already had, used freeware, used the hardcopy charts which you should have anyway. As a a-side if you have a paper chart that you need scanned as a pdf or tif file you might be able to get someone in the architectural, engineering, surveying field to do this at a reasonable cost. You can also scan the charts and join them up with the seaclear software. My only complaint with using the laptop is that the lumens (display brightness) from these are not useful at daylight conditions as they are too dim. Hope this helps. Don B. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darren Bos Sent: March 17, 2008 8:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Canadian Tire... You have to use Garmin's proprietary BlueCharts for bathymetric data, for BC this would cost about as much as the GPSMap76 itself. The 76Map also only has 8MB of storage space, so if you download detailed maps there can be times when you have to reload maps part way through a trip if you are covering a fair bit of ground. I use paper charts to do my navigation and keep the GPS 76 in the cockpit for checking progress along the course. For longer trips I have waypoints loaded into it to check progress along the way. I find the preloaded garmin basemap (with marine navigational aids such as buoys), or the topographic map series both have sufficient shoreline detail to do this, so the marine charts aren't necessary. The preloaded basemap seems to be accurate for the buoys and beacons I have checked. I used Blue Charts with the 76 at work, but for my personal unit I didn't think it was worth the cost and I just use the basemap or topomap data. Darren At 11:41 AM 17/03/2008, you wrote: >Hi Darren... For the Garmin GPS Map 76 do you have to download the >charts for British Columbia from their website? > >I have nobletec and a notebook computer aboard but I would like to >have a handheld as a back up and this one seems a good price. > >Regards.. Gary > >--- In >origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > I have a GPSMap 76 and like it quite a bit. However, I think the > > screens on all handhelds are too small for effectively using a > > chart. You have to zoom in and zoom out to get both the big >picture > > and access detailed information. So a larger display or a paper > > chart is necessary. Personally, I like having the 76 in the >cockpit > > to confirm my navigation via coastal features, but I use paper >charts > > to look for the rocks. It is waterproof and it floats (have tested >both). > > > > Darren > > > > At 02:32 PM 15/03/2008, you wrote: > > > > >...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. >I am > > >just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > >charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > >Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16937|16906|2008-03-18 00:11:00|Bob|Re: Gps|The biggest drawback is that these digitized navagation tools need a reliable power source. That can be a real deal killer. And besides, its good to have a balance between reliable paper charts and accuracy of GPS. I scan and georeferenced contour maps and made sure the more detailed reef structures were scanned at higher resolutions. The biggest drawback is the display size and lumens. The PDA I use for the moving map just doesn't have sufficient contrast under most daylight lighting conditions. But with a simple color coding scheme of lake areas of "go", "go slow", and "no go", I manage and pick my tracks pretty good, despite the faded colors. The biggest problem is the size of the PDA screen display. I find I need bifocals to see ahead and glimpse the screen simultaneously. But at night, the colors are vivid. Bob --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Don & Karina wrote: > > We aren't experts but we used our handheld GPS for lat/longs and uploaded > seaclear ll (freeware) on our laptop. We then purchased all the US charts on > CD format on ebay ($20.00-a fantastic deal) As we cruised in areas outside > of the US charts I made some of my own geo-referenced charts for seaclear > using scanned charts and google earth for the UTM coordinates. I tested > the set-up using local maps and driving around in my car before I took it > out for our cruising holiday. > > > > The whole set-up was good as it was using equipment I already had, used > freeware, used the hardcopy charts which you should have anyway. As a a-side > if you have a paper chart that you need scanned as a pdf or tif file you > might be able to get someone in the architectural, engineering, surveying > field to do this at a reasonable cost. You can also scan the charts and join > them up with the seaclear software. > > > > My only complaint with using the laptop is that the lumens (display > brightness) from these are not useful at daylight conditions as they are too > dim. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Don B. > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Darren Bos > Sent: March 17, 2008 8:32 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Canadian Tire... > > > > You have to use Garmin's proprietary BlueCharts for bathymetric data, > for BC this would cost about as much as the GPSMap76 itself. The > 76Map also only has 8MB of storage space, so if you download detailed > maps there can be times when you have to reload maps part way through > a trip if you are covering a fair bit of ground. > > I use paper charts to do my navigation and keep the GPS 76 in the > cockpit for checking progress along the course. For longer trips I > have waypoints loaded into it to check progress along the way. I > find the preloaded garmin basemap (with marine navigational aids such > as buoys), or the topographic map series both have sufficient > shoreline detail to do this, so the marine charts aren't > necessary. The preloaded basemap seems to be accurate for the buoys > and beacons I have checked. I used Blue Charts with the 76 at work, > but for my personal unit I didn't think it was worth the cost and I > just use the basemap or topomap data. > > Darren > > At 11:41 AM 17/03/2008, you wrote: > > >Hi Darren... For the Garmin GPS Map 76 do you have to download the > >charts for British Columbia from their website? > > > >I have nobletec and a notebook computer aboard but I would like to > >have a handheld as a back up and this one seems a good price. > > > >Regards.. Gary > > > >--- In > >origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, > >Darren Bos wrote: > > > > > > I have a GPSMap 76 and like it quite a bit. However, I think the > > > screens on all handhelds are too small for effectively using a > > > chart. You have to zoom in and zoom out to get both the big > >picture > > > and access detailed information. So a larger display or a paper > > > chart is necessary. Personally, I like having the 76 in the > >cockpit > > > to confirm my navigation via coastal features, but I use paper > >charts > > > to look for the rocks. It is waterproof and it floats (have tested > >both). > > > > > > Darren > > > > > > At 02:32 PM 15/03/2008, you wrote: > > > > > > >...just dropped the price of Garmin GPS Map 76 to $197 from $329. > >I am > > > >just wondering about the small map window being suitable for marine > > > >charts? Anyone use one? > > > > > > > >Thanks... Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16938|16906|2008-03-18 00:48:30|Paul Wilson|Re: GPS charts|Hi Ben, Just so I am clear :). When I said that gps has never lied to me I meant that the raw position data from the receiver (ie. lat, long) has always been accurate. Any errors I have seen in navigation with a gps have always been a software, interface or map issue in relating the accurate position information onto an inaccurate or incorrectly used map or chart. I have never had the displeasure of using a car gps but I know they are full of problems. From what I have heard, they are usually an issue with the databases being incorrect. For example showing a road where the road does not exist. I could be wrong, but I don't think the actual position (if you could read it in lat/long) would be incorrect when read on the proper chart. Also, I accept that many people don't want to rely on something electronic but all risks must be taken in context. I have had the same calculator now for over 20 years and it still works. My old sextant had the silver come off the mirrors. Does that make it reliable? A stand-alone gps with spare batteries in a sealed plastic bag would survive a knock down or rollover in my boat and is independant of the boats electric system. The navigation tables for my sextant might not. A gps also costs peanuts compared to a good sextant. The last time I looked at buying an nautical almanac, the cost of the book and shipping was almost as much as a cheap gps and would only have been good for one year. I ended up giving my sextant away. I also won't lose sleep over the USA turning the system off since if they ever did, it would cause worldwide chaos since gps is in such widespread use today. There would have to be a worldwide war for that to happen and I will have more to worry about than navigating the boat. If things get that bad, I can figure out my latitude with a protractor if I have to and keep in the tropics by making sure the butter stays melted :). I will find a nice beach somewhere, gather some coconuts for drinking and figure out how to melt the lead in my keel to make a shield for the fall-out. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:25:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] GPS charts On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:17:19PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I loooooove my gps. I don't want to quibble, but I don't think I > would ever go as far as say that paper charts are a safer bet. > > This is a huge subject and I know I am over-simplifying things but I > would say that if you had problems with gps before, it was probably a > problem with the match-up with the chart system (datum) you had with > the gps and the chart system used with the paper charts. Although it's possible for this to happen, it would be extremely unusual - and if it did, the error would be a constant one (e.g., you'd be 200 miles to the west of the indicated position, for example.) Assuming operator error as the main cause of GPS problems is a *very* dangerous thing to do - especially since it's not so much the satellite system that's at fault but the errors in the mapping software as well as routing programs used. There have been a lot of GPS-related accidents and problems lately (for anyone interested, I suggest checking out the RISKS Digest - an excellent resource for estimation of risks in complex systems), and the top reasons for most of them, from my own informal tally, have been 1) inaccuracy in map representation and 2) lack of 3-D data (e.g., truck drivers in the UK trying to take their rig through a tiny alley in a village because the GPS routed them that way.) The other - and to me, the damning problem - is the fact that it takes a chain of technology (power on one end, satellite-to- ground transmission on the other end, reliability of electronics in the middle) for the GPS to function. For a chart, no such chain exists: everything else can fail, and it will still work. I love my GPS, and use it all the time as I cruise - but I'd never rely on it. As the charts used to say (and some still do), "The prudent mariner will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation". When it comes to sailing, that pretty much completely describes my approach to safety. > So far, the gps has never lied to me, even before > the accuracy improved and I was using an old single channel unit. That would make you truly unusual. :) I've had a modern, multi-channel GPS - one that self-updates continually, has nearly every latest whizbang gadget built in, etc. - tell me "No route exists" when I asked it to get me to an address less than a dozen blocks away. True, it was in a twisty little corner of Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay) - but it *was* in Brooklyn, conjecturally one of the best-mapped areas in the world. A GPS is wonderfully useful - but it's far from perfect, or even reasonably reliable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16939|16906|2008-03-18 07:50:51|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|To put things into context, my usual cruising ground is the Thames Estuary: 500 square miles of mostly water and maybe 40 or so sand banks which dry at low tide. Tidal range is 4 to 6 metres. It is well buoyed. There is some shipping. Navigating is mostly pilotage. I sail and navigate single handed whether my wife is with me or not and so need to do it from the cockpit. The GPS comes into it's own in bad visibility of course, but I use it all the time to determine headings, confirm my position and so on. In a sense it my schoolmaster while I gain confidence with using bearings, transits, tidal streams etc. etc. Wally Paine --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 01:54:22PM -0000, Ray wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine > wrote: > > > > > > I make one of the compass roses on the chart one > of > > > the way points. It is simple then to get a > bearing and > > > distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a > suitable > > > (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual > record > > > on the chart as to where I am. As a method it > > > integrates well with log, echo sounder and > compass. > > > > > > Wally Paine > > > > Wally - > > > > Maybe I need more coffee before asking - but, I'm > having a hard time > > understanding your suggestion. I'd appreciate it > if you'd talk a little > > more about this - I enjoy hearing others' > navigational tricks. > > As I understood it, Wally snaps a GPS waypoint every > time he sees a rose > floating on the ocean... :) > > Perhaps Wally will explain it in more detail in his > own words. It's > similar to what I do when I'm sailing near land, > where I'll enter a > visible landmark as a waypoint - that gives me a GPS > bearing to it which > I can cross-check via my hand-held compass. Wally's > method is useful in > the open ocean, although (as I understand it from > his explanation above) > it would require just a little more > calculation/chartwork. A very nice > tool to have in your mental toolbox. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16940|16906|2008-03-18 08:06:36|T & D Cain|Re: GPS charts|Wally, where did the compass rose waypoint idea come from? This seems to be a natural and useful technique which has not been widely publicised in pilotage training. That last remark could well bring down lots of rebuttals, but some people who do this stuff regularly raised their eyebrows, frowned, and then smiled with acceptance. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wally Paine Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: GPS charts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16941|16906|2008-03-18 09:41:30|Ray|Re: GPS charts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > > --- Ray wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine > > wrote: > > > > > > I make one of the compass roses on the chart one > > of > > > the way points. It is simple then to get a bearing > > and > > > distance to the rose and obtain a fix with a > > suitable > > > (i.e. correct scale) rule. Thus I have a visual > > record > > > on the chart as to where I am. As a method it > > > integrates well with log, echo sounder and > > compass. > > > > > > Wally Paine OK - I get it now - THANKS! When I was flying, we did something similar w/electronic navaids on sectionals, so that we could triangulate between 3-4 for a more precise fix.| 16942|16906|2008-03-18 10:32:16|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS charts|On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:48:28PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Just so I am clear :). When I said that gps has never lied to me I > meant that the raw position data from the receiver (ie. lat, long) has > always been accurate. That's a pretty reasonable statement; I'll agree with that. This is one of those places where the benefits of digital technology stand out: it'll either be (reasonably) accurate - or it won't work at all. > Any errors I have seen in navigation with a gps > have always been a software, interface or map issue in relating the > accurate position information onto an inaccurate or incorrectly used > map or chart. That reflects my experience as well. > I have never had the displeasure of using a car gps but > I know they are full of problems. From what I have heard, they are > usually an issue with the databases being incorrect. For example > showing a road where the road does not exist. Actually, that's not much of a problem - to an amazing extent. I recently taught a class in Montreal, and when I was driving back toward the US, I decided to take a little detour and see the country that was going past. I pulled off the highway and drove off down snow-covered farm roads, most of them dirt and gravel, and some of them no more than a farm track - but wherever I saw street signs, the GPS always reported them accurately. That's pretty impressive. *Most* importantly, though - and this is what makes the GPS worth every penny - is that is prevents arguments about which way to turn between me and my wife. In fact, it gives us both some(body|thing) to scream at ("You STUPID thing! How could you even THINK that there's a U-turn here???" :))) when it reports something incorrectly, thus putting us on the same side of an argument instead of opposite ones. Hell, if it cost ten times as much, it would still be worth it. :) > I could be wrong, but I > don't think the actual position (if you could read it in lat/long) > would be incorrect when read on the proper chart. Agreed. > Also, I accept that many people don't want to rely on something > electronic but all risks must be taken in context. I have had the > same calculator now for over 20 years and it still works. Heh. Your calculator is essentially a single chip with some (highly reliable) buttons and a display connected to it, with low power consumption. The GPS not only fails to fit any of the above categories, but is also dependent on a very, very complex external chain of systems in which *every* *single* *link* must work - a single point of failure anywhere in that link makes your GPS useless. > My old > sextant had the silver come off the mirrors. Does that make it > reliable? The knowledge that's necessary to take a sight is always reliable. If I don't have a sextant, I can rig a backplane; if I'm willing to lose some accuracy, I'll make up a fixed latitude marker or even a /kamal/; and if I don't have anything but a set of tables, I'll take a sunset (or sunrise) sight. I can take a sun sight without a sextant. The GPS does not have _any_ fallback modes; if it fails in any way, it's useless. > A stand-alone gps with spare batteries in a sealed plastic > bag would survive a knock down or rollover in my boat and is > independant of the boats electric system. The navigation tables for > my sextant might not. If they're sealed in the same way as you propose sealing the GPS, they're far more likely to survive than the GPS. I can't think of any situations in which, all other things being equal, a GPS would be more reliable than a paper chart/set of tables. > A gps also costs peanuts compared to a good > sextant. The last time I looked at buying an nautical almanac, the > cost of the book and shipping was almost as much as a cheap gps and > would only have been good for one year. I ended up giving my sextant > away. A plastic sextant, which will give you all the precision that a small-boat sailor requires, costs about $20. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16943|16906|2008-03-18 14:20:03|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|I think it was from an instructor when I did one of the RYA courses. GPS was not then taught at all and he threw it in as an extra. I also seem to remember the bit about pining the rule to the chart came from an article in the PBO. Wally Paine * RYA Royal Yachting Association: They have a structured series of courses. * PBO Practical Boat Owner: A magazine I subscribe to. --- T & D Cain wrote: > Wally, where did the compass rose waypoint idea come > from? > > This seems to be a natural and useful technique > which has not been widely > publicised in pilotage training. > > That last remark could well bring down lots of > rebuttals, but some people > who do this stuff regularly raised their eyebrows, > frowned, and then smiled > with acceptance. > > Terry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Wally Paine > Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:21 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: GPS charts > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > | 16944|16906|2008-03-18 14:31:51|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|I've got a Tom Tom in the car. I bought it to improve marital relations especially when driving in France. In fact it is really useful in strange towns in the UK which are sometimes a maze of one way streets etc. And it makes driving in London feasible for a non Londoner like me. However on it's first outing to Canterbury, which I do know, it did not recognise a roundabout and tried to put me on the wrong side of the road. Wally Paine --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:48:28PM -0700, Paul > Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Just so I am clear :). When I said that gps has > never lied to me I > > meant that the raw position data from the receiver > (ie. lat, long) has > > always been accurate. > > That's a pretty reasonable statement; I'll agree > with that. This is one > of those places where the benefits of digital > technology stand out: > it'll either be (reasonably) accurate - or it won't > work at all. > > > Any errors I have seen in navigation with a gps > > have always been a software, interface or map > issue in relating the > > accurate position information onto an inaccurate > or incorrectly used > > map or chart. > > That reflects my experience as well. > > > I have never had the displeasure of using a car > gps but > > I know they are full of problems. From what I > have heard, they are > > usually an issue with the databases being > incorrect. For example > > showing a road where the road does not exist. > > Actually, that's not much of a problem - to an > amazing extent. I > recently taught a class in Montreal, and when I was > driving back toward > the US, I decided to take a little detour and see > the country that was > going past. I pulled off the highway and drove off > down snow-covered > farm roads, most of them dirt and gravel, and some > of them no more than > a farm track - but wherever I saw street signs, the > GPS always reported > them accurately. That's pretty impressive. > > *Most* importantly, though - and this is what makes > the GPS worth every > penny - is that is prevents arguments about which > way to turn between me > and my wife. In fact, it gives us both > some(body|thing) to scream at > ("You STUPID thing! How could you even THINK that > there's a U-turn > here???" :))) when it reports something incorrectly, > thus putting us on > the same side of an argument instead of opposite > ones. Hell, if it cost > ten times as much, it would still be worth it. :) > > > I could be wrong, but I > > don't think the actual position (if you could read > it in lat/long) > > would be incorrect when read on the proper chart. > > Agreed. > > > Also, I accept that many people don't want to rely > on something > > electronic but all risks must be taken in context. > I have had the > > same calculator now for over 20 years and it still > works. > > Heh. Your calculator is essentially a single chip > with some (highly > reliable) buttons and a display connected to it, > with low power > consumption. The GPS not only fails to fit any of > the above categories, > but is also dependent on a very, very complex > external chain of systems > in which *every* *single* *link* must work - a > single point of failure > anywhere in that link makes your GPS useless. > > > My old > > sextant had the silver come off the mirrors. Does > that make it > > reliable? > > The knowledge that's necessary to take a sight is > always reliable. If I > don't have a sextant, I can rig a backplane; if I'm > willing to lose some > accuracy, I'll make up a fixed latitude marker or > even a /kamal/; and if > I don't have anything but a set of tables, I'll take > a sunset (or > sunrise) sight. I can take a sun sight without a > sextant. The GPS does > not have _any_ fallback modes; if it fails in any > way, it's useless. > > > A stand-alone gps with spare batteries in a sealed > plastic > > bag would survive a knock down or rollover in my > boat and is > > independant of the boats electric system. The > navigation tables for > > my sextant might not. > > If they're sealed in the same way as you propose > sealing the GPS, > they're far more likely to survive than the GPS. I > can't think of any > situations in which, all other things being equal, a > GPS would be more > reliable than a paper chart/set of tables. > > > A gps also costs peanuts compared to a good > > sextant. The last time I looked at buying an > nautical almanac, the > > cost of the book and shipping was almost as much > as a cheap gps and > > would only have been good for one year. I ended > up giving my sextant > > away. > > A plastic sextant, which will give you all the > precision that a > small-boat sailor requires, costs about $20. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16945|16906|2008-03-18 18:03:48|edward_stoneuk|Re: GPS charts|Wally, Terry, I had heard of the Compass Rose idea used with drawn lines on the chart radiating out from it with their bearings written on them, and then arcs radiatating out from the Rose with their distances marked on them. Then when ones hand held GPS gives the distance and bearing from the Compass Rose waypoint one can quickly mark ones position in the corresponding area of the chart. I think I was told this by an RYA instructor as well. He said that it was used by marines moving fast in rubber boats. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine wrote: > > I think it was from an instructor when I did one of > the RYA courses. GPS was not then taught at all and he > threw it in as an extra. > > I also seem to remember the bit about pining the rule > to the chart came from an article in the PBO. > > Wally Paine > > * RYA Royal Yachting Association: They have a > structured series of courses. > * PBO Practical Boat Owner: A magazine I subscribe > to. > > --- T & D Cain wrote: > > > Wally, where did the compass rose waypoint idea come > > from? > > > > This seems to be a natural and useful technique > > which has not been widely > > publicised in pilotage training. > > > > That last remark could well bring down lots of > > rebuttals, but some people > > who do this stuff regularly raised their eyebrows, > > frowned, and then smiled > > with acceptance. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Wally Paine > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:21 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: GPS charts > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > | 16946|16906|2008-03-19 04:27:13|Wally Paine|Re: GPS charts|I like the idea. The more I can do by way of preparation the smoother it goes. Wally --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > Wally, Terry, > > I had heard of the Compass Rose idea used with drawn > lines on the > chart radiating out from it with their bearings > written on them, and > then arcs radiatating out from the Rose with their > distances marked > on them. Then when ones hand held GPS gives the > distance and bearing > from the Compass Rose waypoint one can quickly mark > ones position in > the corresponding area of the chart. I think I was > told this by an > RYA instructor as well. He said that it was used by > marines moving > fast in rubber boats. > > Regards, > Ted > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wally Paine > wrote: > > > > I think it was from an instructor when I did one > of > > the RYA courses. GPS was not then taught at all > and he > > threw it in as an extra. > > > > I also seem to remember the bit about pining the > rule > > to the chart came from an article in the PBO. > > > > Wally Paine > > > > * RYA Royal Yachting Association: They have a > > structured series of courses. > > * PBO Practical Boat Owner: A magazine I > subscribe > > to. > > > > --- T & D Cain wrote: > > > > > Wally, where did the compass rose waypoint idea > come > > > from? > > > > > > This seems to be a natural and useful technique > > > which has not been widely > > > publicised in pilotage training. > > > > > > That last remark could well bring down lots of > > > rebuttals, but some people > > > who do this stuff regularly raised their > eyebrows, > > > frowned, and then smiled > > > with acceptance. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Wally Paine > > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2008 9:21 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: GPS charts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > | 16947|16906|2008-03-19 04:59:45|T & D Cain|Re: GPS charts|Wally Paine, I thank you for introducing this useful GPS waypoint method to this group. If I pass this on to other groups, I will include yourself as my source of the method. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wally Paine Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 5:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: GPS charts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16948|16922|2008-03-19 06:12:01|sae140|Re: GPS...and celestial|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > The Europeans have been sending up GPS Birds in case Uncle Sam meses > with its own. Theirs are compatible with our units. Depends what you mean by 'compatible' ... Galileo signals will be compatible in the sense that they won't intefere with the existing NavStar system, nor vice-versa, and the Galileo receivers currently being developed will be capable of processing NavStar-GPS signals as well - but you won't be able to receive Galileo signals on existing GPS equipment. Colin| 16949|16949|2008-03-19 17:45:43|Gary Prebble|GPS handheld marine & topo?|Further to discussion of this topic recently: I am shopping for a hand held gps and was considering the Garmin GPS Map 76 currently on sale locally. For marine purposes (backup) from what I gather from posts the 76 is fine. However, part of my fun on the BC coast is gold panning & artifact hunting which involves hiking into wilderness areas with my Swain 36 anchored out as mothership. Just wondering if the 76 is sufficiently adequate for good topographical mapping or is there a better handheld gps model out there better suited for both land & sea? Thanks in advance... Gary| 16950|16950|2008-03-20 01:08:16|dbowler36|100 Free Books for Members|Dear Member Get over 100 Free Internet Business E-Books! Iif you own a website, or know someone that does, you or they may well be interested in this new Yahoo group that give you ideas and tips on marketing your online business. There is also a free gift of 100+ e-books for all new members that join the group! Visit: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/websitemarketingnews/ Regards Member This email is not spam, I am a member of this UK group and therefore allowed to contact other members. I will not however, abuse this privelage by sharing your data or by sending lots of emails. I will only let other members know of 'Freebies' or great offers, periodically!| 16951|16949|2008-03-20 19:40:12|Darren Bos|Re: GPS handheld marine & topo?|Gary, I regularly use my 76 off the boat as well. The only drawback is that it is quite a bit larger than the handhelds designed for hiking. However, you do get a larger screen, which I like and if you are gold panning the fact that the 76 floats might be an advantage. The 76 also has a quad helix antenna which is more sensitive than the patch antenna's found in many smaller units. Basically, I think the 76Map is pretty hard to beat for the price. Darren At 02:45 PM 19/03/2008, you wrote: >Further to discussion of this topic recently: I am shopping for a hand >held gps and was considering the Garmin GPS Map 76 currently on sale >locally. For marine purposes (backup) from what I gather from posts >the 76 is fine. However, part of my fun on the BC coast is gold >panning & artifact hunting which involves hiking into wilderness areas >with my Swain 36 anchored out as mothership. Just wondering if the 76 >is sufficiently adequate for good topographical mapping or is there a >better handheld gps model out there better suited for both land & sea? >Thanks in advance... >Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16952|16949|2008-03-20 19:49:03|Darren Bos|Re: GPS handheld marine & topo?|Gary Forgot to mention, the 76 will let you average a waypoint, while many other handheld units will not. Multipath, ionospheric effects and satellite geometry all effect your calculated gps location (if you want to check this, just start recording a track one day and leave the gps sitting still and watch it "go for a walk" while it is not moving. These things are generally worse when you are in the forest and don't have a clear view of the sky (in a valley or with a ridge to the south of you at BC lattitudes). So way point averaging is nice to have if you want to really accurately mark a waypoint (atleast as accurate as you can do with a consumer GPS). Also forgot that the 76 has an anchor alarm that can be a nice feature. Darren At 02:45 PM 19/03/2008, you wrote: >Further to discussion of this topic recently: I am shopping for a hand >held gps and was considering the Garmin GPS Map 76 currently on sale >locally. For marine purposes (backup) from what I gather from posts >the 76 is fine. However, part of my fun on the BC coast is gold >panning & artifact hunting which involves hiking into wilderness areas >with my Swain 36 anchored out as mothership. Just wondering if the 76 >is sufficiently adequate for good topographical mapping or is there a >better handheld gps model out there better suited for both land & sea? >Thanks in advance... >Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16953|16953|2008-03-21 05:45:36|D. Bowler|Website Marketing Tip|Visit: www.campaigntargeting.com Effective and cheap marketing for your website| 16954|16954|2008-03-21 06:08:53|D. Bowler|Dating Tip for Single & Divorced Men|It is time to meet some lovely ladies! Visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LadiesInThailand/ These ladies are stunning, and you can see a selection of their photographs in the photo's area of the group It is FREE to subscribe to the group and you can upgrade to full membership at any time for just $10 (payable once only!) for Life membership! Join TODAY!| 16955|16133|2008-03-21 10:57:16|matchbqyfriends|You have received a NEW friend request!|You have received a NEW friend request! Check this request here: http://tonhnya.googlepages.com/index.htm| 16956|16906|2008-03-21 16:16:08|slade green|Re: GPS charts|Has anybody ever heard of the Godfrey Butter Navigation theory step one place 1 lb of butter on chart table or available surface Step two wait for butter to melt while on a southerly course Step three once butter has melted turn left for Cabo San Lucas or right for Hilo, you have reached approx. 22' north lat. Wally Paine wrote: I've got a Tom Tom in the car. I bought it to improve marital relations especially when driving in France. In fact it is really useful in strange towns in the UK which are sometimes a maze of one way streets etc. And it makes driving in London feasible for a non Londoner like me. However on it's first outing to Canterbury, which I do know, it did not recognise a roundabout and tried to put me on the wrong side of the road. Wally Paine --- Ben Okopnik wrote: > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 09:48:28PM -0700, Paul > Wilson wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Just so I am clear :). When I said that gps has > never lied to me I > > meant that the raw position data from the receiver > (ie. lat, long) has > > always been accurate. > > That's a pretty reasonable statement; I'll agree > with that. This is one > of those places where the benefits of digital > technology stand out: > it'll either be (reasonably) accurate - or it won't > work at all. > > > Any errors I have seen in navigation with a gps > > have always been a software, interface or map > issue in relating the > > accurate position information onto an inaccurate > or incorrectly used > > map or chart. > > That reflects my experience as well. > > > I have never had the displeasure of using a car > gps but > > I know they are full of problems. From what I > have heard, they are > > usually an issue with the databases being > incorrect. For example > > showing a road where the road does not exist. > > Actually, that's not much of a problem - to an > amazing extent. I > recently taught a class in Montreal, and when I was > driving back toward > the US, I decided to take a little detour and see > the country that was > going past. I pulled off the highway and drove off > down snow-covered > farm roads, most of them dirt and gravel, and some > of them no more than > a farm track - but wherever I saw street signs, the > GPS always reported > them accurately. That's pretty impressive. > > *Most* importantly, though - and this is what makes > the GPS worth every > penny - is that is prevents arguments about which > way to turn between me > and my wife. In fact, it gives us both > some(body|thing) to scream at > ("You STUPID thing! How could you even THINK that > there's a U-turn > here???" :))) when it reports something incorrectly, > thus putting us on > the same side of an argument instead of opposite > ones. Hell, if it cost > ten times as much, it would still be worth it. :) > > > I could be wrong, but I > > don't think the actual position (if you could read > it in lat/long) > > would be incorrect when read on the proper chart. > > Agreed. > > > Also, I accept that many people don't want to rely > on something > > electronic but all risks must be taken in context. > I have had the > > same calculator now for over 20 years and it still > works. > > Heh. Your calculator is essentially a single chip > with some (highly > reliable) buttons and a display connected to it, > with low power > consumption. The GPS not only fails to fit any of > the above categories, > but is also dependent on a very, very complex > external chain of systems > in which *every* *single* *link* must work - a > single point of failure > anywhere in that link makes your GPS useless. > > > My old > > sextant had the silver come off the mirrors. Does > that make it > > reliable? > > The knowledge that's necessary to take a sight is > always reliable. If I > don't have a sextant, I can rig a backplane; if I'm > willing to lose some > accuracy, I'll make up a fixed latitude marker or > even a /kamal/; and if > I don't have anything but a set of tables, I'll take > a sunset (or > sunrise) sight. I can take a sun sight without a > sextant. The GPS does > not have _any_ fallback modes; if it fails in any > way, it's useless. > > > A stand-alone gps with spare batteries in a sealed > plastic > > bag would survive a knock down or rollover in my > boat and is > > independant of the boats electric system. The > navigation tables for > > my sextant might not. > > If they're sealed in the same way as you propose > sealing the GPS, > they're far more likely to survive than the GPS. I > can't think of any > situations in which, all other things being equal, a > GPS would be more > reliable than a paper chart/set of tables. > > > A gps also costs peanuts compared to a good > > sextant. The last time I looked at buying an > nautical almanac, the > > cost of the book and shipping was almost as much > as a cheap gps and > > would only have been good for one year. I ended > up giving my sextant > > away. > > A plastic sextant, which will give you all the > precision that a > small-boat sailor requires, costs about $20. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16957|16957|2008-03-21 16:38:57|jameshawk99|Dovetail joints with alloy hulls|Has anyone used any three to four inch dovetail joints to join 20' butt ends together ? End to end dovetails. I have been a woodworker for over twenty years and wonder ----why not,(which does not conflict with the tools needed ) to overkill the strength of an alloy orgami hull. After or before pulling the sides together--it would be so easy to confirm the joints by sabring out some neat overlaps to dovetails, instead of cutting off the excesses and welding a weaker butt joint. Not discrediting anyones welding at all, but in a gale I would rather think of a physical hold of dovetails helping out in the emergency of a storm. Even splicing tails between longitudes would be a strengthening and esthetic touch---- would anyone agree ? Perhaps even after a steel hull is formed a few feathers could be oxied or plazma'd out and welded in. After having done the like in wood----it seems easy to me . I don't mind anyones input. I am new to the forum. I love the sea, aluminum and wood, and appreciate strong joints when needed. And I don't mind some advice from others. thanks----Jim| 16958|16906|2008-03-21 17:09:00|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS charts|On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 01:15:59PM -0700, slade green wrote: > Has anybody ever heard of the Godfrey Butter Navigation theory > > step one place 1 lb of butter on chart table or available surface > Step two wait for butter to melt while on a southerly course > Step three once butter has melted turn left for Cabo San Lucas or > right for Hilo, you have reached approx. 22' north lat. My most important navigational instrument is the thermometer. Once the average temperature drops below what I consider pleasant, I steer toward the equator. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16959|16957|2008-03-25 06:38:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dovetail joints with alloy hulls|Hi Jim, Do you join sheets of (3/16") 6mm plywood together with dovetail joints? How do you start cutting the inside part of the dovetail, the cut that is parallel to the joint face? When we joined plywood sheets together for our bulkheads we butted them together with polyurethene adhesive. There will be furniture affixed to them which will strengthen the joint. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Has anyone used any three to four inch dovetail joints to join 20' butt > ends together ? End to end dovetails. I have been a woodworker for > over twenty years and wonder ----why not,(which does not conflict with > the tools needed ) to overkill the strength of an alloy orgami hull. > After or before pulling the sides together--it would be so easy to > confirm the joints by sabring out some neat overlaps to dovetails, > instead of cutting off the excesses and welding a weaker butt joint. > Not discrediting anyones welding at all, but in a gale I would rather > think of a physical hold of dovetails helping out in the emergency > of a storm. Even splicing tails between longitudes would be a > strengthening and esthetic touch---- would anyone agree ? Perhaps > even after a steel hull is formed a few feathers could be oxied or > plazma'd out and welded in. After having done the like in wood---- it > seems easy to me . > I don't mind anyones input. I am new to the forum. I love the sea, > aluminum and wood, and appreciate strong joints when needed. And I > don't mind some advice from others. > > thanks----Jim > | 16960|16906|2008-03-25 15:51:03|ANDREW AIREY|Re: GPS charts|As a somewhat reluctant convert to satnavigation - I work as a courier and the boss said that you either get a satnav or another job - I got one of the cheaper Garmin models,largely because they have a good reputation in marine circles,and I thought that it would be useful as a position check if out at sea(It is the road/walking model).As far as road use is concerned I would echo the views of an old lorry driver who said that they are very good but if you let them do your thinking for you then you can get into trouble very quickly.Basically they have most of the problems that you have using Autoroute plus a few little snags of their own.We can be grateful to Uncle Sam for supplying the satellite signals for free but since these are not the high definition variety the inaccuracy is enough to confuse the beast on complicated roundabouts/junctions.It also tells you about the next turn just far enough in advance for you to take an alternative if you aren't keeping an eye on the screen display as well.If taking an alternative route to avoid a jam on it's preferred option it will spend the next ten miles trying to return you to the jam and sounds positively peevish after the 4th or 5th recalculation,before it accepts the inevitable and does the recalculation you want.A plus point is that it gives you the name of all the street name signs that the council haven't bothered to maintain for the last few years while they are pursuing the latest politically correct initiative.The problem if you're driving anything larger than a Mercedes Sprinter van is that the system is designed for cars so little imponderables like low bridges and truck unfriendly roads are not pinpointed although to be fair anything in Devon other than the A30 is truck unfriendly.Unless you sort out your route in advance - which rather does away with much of the point of a satnav - by the time you realise you are in the sh*t it's too late to do anything about it.All good fun In marine terms I would think that it would help to know the provenance of ones chart.If the chart has been compiled from satellite data all well and good,but if it's a digitised conventional chart then things could get interesting,depending on the accuracy of the original data.In 'Watersteps round Europe'Bill Cooper comments adversely on the accuracy of the charts around Greece when using satnav,the original data having been compiled about 150 years ago by a RN captain who,as Bill scathingly said,was not exactly a second captain Cook cheers andy airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 16961|16961|2008-03-25 18:22:17|joeearsley|stysl sheet block and winch|Brent, what has been done for training the stysl sheet? Have you a place for a block inboard the spreaders? Also, how do you manage tacking the jib and stysl with one winch? Alaska Joe| 16962|16906|2008-03-25 18:34:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: GPS charts|On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 09:17:48PM +0000, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > In marine terms I would think that it would help to > know the provenance of ones chart.If the chart has > been compiled from satellite data all well and > good,but if it's a digitised conventional chart then > things could get interesting,depending on the accuracy > of the original data.In 'Watersteps round Europe'Bill > Cooper comments adversely on the accuracy of the > charts around Greece when using satnav,the original > data having been compiled about 150 years ago by a RN > captain who,as Bill scathingly said,was not exactly a > second captain Cook It's a common problem once you get out of the "First World" countries. Most of the Caribbean charts are based on a survey done in the late 1800s - and there haven't been too many corrections since then. It _is_ usually true that "rocks don't move", but hurricanes do fill in old channels and cut new ones every year, and the man-made navaids marked on those charts are often badly out of date. The official charts for places like the Turks and Caicos are *so* badly out of date that the best chart for that area (one that's used by everyone who has a clue) is a hand-drawn one by a local captain. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16963|16963|2008-03-25 20:52:05|James Pronk|Stainless steel|I have just removed about 80 feet of stainless steel hand rails out of an old city bus. the out side diameter is 1.25" and the ID is 1". Has anyone used this with any success? Most of it is in short lengths of 4' to 7'and I don't know if it would be okay to mig or tig it into longer lengths? Any ideas, James.| 16964|16964|2008-03-25 22:06:47|jameshawk99|Dovetails in ply|Yes Ted, end to end dovetails join plywood, you ccan use a jig to do it, from Lee Valley Tools, about $ 600.00 for plywood, but if you weld you can go a different route and score and cut because in welding you don't have to be as precise because a weld will cover a 1/8 gap easily but in woodworking it should be snug pins and tails precise. In Metal you can cut identical feathers to join large plates as well. Jim| 16965|16963|2008-03-25 23:25:57|polaris041|Re: Stainless steel|Take care it may be 'morris tube'. Often used in such situations to reduce cost. consists of very thn SS over mild steel inner tube. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I have just removed about 80 feet of stainless steel hand rails out of > an old city bus. the out side diameter is 1.25" and the ID is 1". Has > anyone used this with any success? Most of it is in short lengths of 4' > to 7'and I don't know if it would be okay to mig or tig it into longer > lengths? Any ideas, James. > | 16966|16964|2008-03-26 00:37:40|polaris041|Re: Dovetails in ply|Traditiona method would have been a scarf joint with a ratio of 12;1. To use the key method just cut any interlocking profile on one sheet. lay it over the second ,trace and cut that. The joint can be really sloppy as gap filling epoxy will take care of the slack. get 2 boards the length of the joint and wide enough to cover the joint. cover one side of each with brown packaging tape (epoxy won't stick to it), butter the joint assemble and either clamp the boards over to expell exces epoxy and align the sheets. Or you can pull the joint down by drilling a clearance hole in one board and screwing it to the other through the ply. Certainly don't bust any $'s on a jig. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Yes Ted, end to end dovetails join plywood, you ccan use a jig to do > it, from Lee Valley Tools, about $ 600.00 for plywood, but if you weld > you can go a different route and score and cut because in welding you > don't have to be as precise because a weld will cover a 1/8 gap easily > but in woodworking it should be snug pins and tails precise. > In Metal you can cut identical feathers to join large plates as well. > > Jim > | 16967|16964|2008-03-26 07:43:56|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dovetails in ply|Hi Jim, I have just looked at the Lee Valley web site; there are some wonderful tools there. I have never seen dovetail joints done in steel or aluminium and I cannot see any benefit in doing so. A major concern would be distortion of welded dovetail joint. It is difficult enough to avoid distortion in butt joint sheet metal let alone in coping with the extra heat input of the twists and turns of a welded dove tail joint. Pulling together a curved metal dovetail joint as in the origami build method and getting it fair would be interesting to say the least. If you are still interested in trying it, make one first in a test piece. I would be interested in how you get on. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jameshawk99" wrote: > > Yes Ted, end to end dovetails join plywood, you ccan use a jig to do > it, from Lee Valley Tools, about $ 600.00 for plywood, but if you weld > you can go a different route and score and cut because in welding you > don't have to be as precise because a weld will cover a 1/8 gap easily > but in woodworking it should be snug pins and tails precise. > In Metal you can cut identical feathers to join large plates as well. > > Jim > | 16968|16968|2008-03-26 11:58:51|Jim Ragsdale|depth transducer and speedlog transducer|how do you guys install these in a steel boat? Thanks, Jim| 16969|16968|2008-03-26 12:15:37|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the transducer would make the whole operation useless. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16970|16968|2008-03-26 12:33:13|Jim Ragsdale|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. ----- Original Message ---- From: Ben Okopnik To: Origami Boat list Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the transducer would make the whole operation useless. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16971|16971|2008-03-26 13:09:39|jameshawk99|Dovetail in alloy for origami hull|I sort of got sidetracked with the question of ever end to end dovetails in plywood, because I own a Leigh Dovetail jig and the routers and bits to fit. My real purpose was to express interest in using an alloy origami and just what " polaris " said ----cutting out large ( and only a few ) dovetails,lay over and scribe out the matching tails, tack as you would every six inches, bring sides together and weld the perfectly fair hull. Done right, the distortion would be nil, and you would have a less than sixty foot wonderful, strong, hull from three lengths of eight by twenty foot 1/4 inch 5086 aluminum. These joints are made never to pull apart, so match it up with a weld, and we are sailing with more security and confidence. I plan on doing it when my schedule gets organized. Jim| 16972|16968|2008-03-26 13:45:24|brentswain38|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. Brent- -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: Origami Boat list > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 16973|16922|2008-03-26 14:12:39|brentswain38|Re: GPS...and celestial|I found that putting a lot more lines on my paper charts for lattitude and longitude with lots of numbers alongside them makes it far easier to quickly read my position at a glance, without having to use the dividers or parallel rules. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > > > The Europeans have been sending up GPS Birds in case Uncle Sam meses > > with its own. Theirs are compatible with our units. > > Depends what you mean by 'compatible' ... > > Galileo signals will be compatible in the sense that they won't > intefere with the existing NavStar system, nor vice-versa, and the > Galileo receivers currently being developed will be capable of > processing NavStar-GPS signals as well - but you won't be able to > receive Galileo signals on existing GPS equipment. > > Colin > | 16974|16906|2008-03-26 14:16:15|brentswain38|Re: GPS charts|In the early 70's enroute to new Zealand I found that where the pilot chart showed a certain temperature for that month the water temperature was exactly that. This has probably changed a lot with global warming. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 01:15:59PM -0700, slade green wrote: > > Has anybody ever heard of the Godfrey Butter Navigation theory > > > > step one place 1 lb of butter on chart table or available surface > > Step two wait for butter to melt while on a southerly course > > Step three once butter has melted turn left for Cabo San Lucas or > > right for Hilo, you have reached approx. 22' north lat. > > My most important navigational instrument is the thermometer. Once the > average temperature drops below what I consider pleasant, I steer toward > the equator. :) > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 16975|16961|2008-03-26 14:23:52|brentswain38|Re: stysl sheet block and winch|The cabintop handrail makes a great staysail sheet track. A winch on the top aft corner of the wheelhouse works for triming it. Putting the foreward lower shroud chainplate on the top of the cabinside , where I designed it to go, lets you make your staysail three feet longer on the foot, enabling you to use a staysail of a useful size, that is far less sensitive to sheet lead position.I don't understand why so many builders insist on screwing up this feature, for no good reason. A piece of 3/4 inch stainless sch 40 pipe across these lower shrouds makes a good seat to sit on while reefing, etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > Brent, what has been done for training the stysl sheet? Have you a > place for a block inboard the spreaders? Also, how do you manage > tacking the jib and stysl with one winch? > > Alaska Joe > | 16976|16963|2008-03-26 14:27:04|brentswain38|Re: Stainless steel|I met a guy with a fibreglas boat who found old busses in a scrapyard, took out all the fittings ,and with his drill and hacksaw, installed solid lifelines all around his boat in an hour. Yes they are well worth saving. I've made many solid lifelines out of short pieces. If well done you can't tell them from ones made of greater lengths. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Pronk" wrote: > > I have just removed about 80 feet of stainless steel hand rails out of > an old city bus. the out side diameter is 1.25" and the ID is 1". Has > anyone used this with any success? Most of it is in short lengths of 4' > to 7'and I don't know if it would be okay to mig or tig it into longer > lengths? Any ideas, James. > | 16977|16968|2008-03-26 14:30:16|brentswain38|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|With the cheaper transom mount ones a simple tab welded to the bottom of the transom lets you bolt the transducer on from your dinghy. Always carry a spare depthsounder. They are cheap and very hard to replace some places. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. > Brent- > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale > wrote: > > > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That > would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just > rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log > would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: Origami Boat list > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim > Ragsdale wrote: > > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 16978|16968|2008-03-26 14:59:47|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Hi Jim, I mounted a steel standpipe vertically just like you would do with a through-hull. The transducer then was mounted in a block and epoxied up the pipe with a cap on top and a hole drilled for the wires. I then faired where the transducer protuded so there was a smooth flow of water around the transducer. You don't want any water bubbles being generated across the face of it. If a log or something knocked the transducer off, it is non-structural so no water should get in. I have always used the cheapy fish-finders which come with a transom mount so bought a shoot thru hull transducer. If you buy a unit that is 200 khz, you should be able to get a transducer. They cost almost as much as the units themselves. Forget about the speedlog unless you are racing. The paddle wheels always foul-up and it is not needed with a GPS. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Ragsdale To: Origamiboats Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:56:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer how do you guys install these in a steel boat? Thanks, Jim ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16979|16968|2008-03-26 16:18:22|Paul Wilson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|The newer depth sounders rely on better signal processing on their receivers and are lower power than the units from years ago. While a high powered unit with a large transducer might work through steel, I don't think most of the small fish-finders would work well at all. Cheers, Paul I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. Brent- -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:44:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: Origami Boat list > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16980|16968|2008-03-26 16:22:27|Carl Anderson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I used a 316 thru-hull and epoxied the transducer (round) inside that. Also used Sikaflex to seal above & below the epoxy. If I need to I can just pound it out from the top & reseal the new one. I also have a steel plate (316) over the top with a small hole to let the wires inside the boat. Using a transom mount transducer would make life simpler. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > Thanks, > Jim | 16981|16968|2008-03-26 17:26:31|Jim Ragsdale|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|How do you install one in a through hull? Will it fit in a pipe or do you have to cut a hole in the boat and use a cheesy plastic fitting? ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:44:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. Brent- -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: Origami Boat list > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette ..NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16982|16968|2008-03-26 17:31:56|Jim Ragsdale|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|Woops, should have kept reading before replying. Carl and Paul gave some good points. It looks like installing them in standpipes is kind of a kludge though. I was hoping someone produced one with some standard threads that could screw together. The only problem I see with a transom mount is that there is 36' of boat in front where the water could be getting much shallower really quick! In that case it may be that you are going to hit it anyway though... ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Ragsdale To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:26:29 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer How do you install one in a through hull? Will it fit in a pipe or do you have to cut a hole in the boat and use a cheesy plastic fitting? ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:44:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. Brent- -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: Origami Boat list > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette ...NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16983|16968|2008-03-26 18:21:49|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 01:17:43PM -0700, Paul Wilson wrote: > The newer depth sounders rely on better signal processing on their > receivers and are lower power than the units from years ago. While a > high powered unit with a large transducer might work through steel, I > don't think most of the small fish-finders would work well at all. The one that we mounted on Jean-Loup's boat was an Eagle fish-finder with a 200kHz transducer; if I recall correctly, this was in either 1998 or 1999. Unless there's been yet another quantum jump in depth-sounder technology, this was the new stuff. The key factor here is not just power alone - it's the density of the material. Steel is perfect, since it transmits the signal with minimal loss (assuming that you have a solid mechanical tie between the face of the transducer and the hull, that is.) Fiberglass - especially given the hidden voids in sloppily laid-up FGRP - is much less so, and yet I've heard of people doing this (or a similar installation, with the transducer mounted in a tube filled with mineral oil) successfully on glass boats. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16984|16968|2008-03-26 18:24:24|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 02:22:24PM -0600, Carl Anderson wrote: > I used a 316 thru-hull and epoxied the transducer (round) inside that. > Also used Sikaflex to seal above & below the epoxy. > If I need to I can just pound it out from the top & reseal the new one. > I also have a steel plate (316) over the top with a small hole to let > the wires inside the boat. > Using a transom mount transducer would make life simpler. The biggest complaint I've heard from people with transom-mounted transducers is that they constantly pop out of the water in a chop - and that the cable is easy to snag. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16985|16968|2008-03-27 00:11:49|Aaron Williams|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|I installed a Humminbird external mount transducer inside on my aluminum power boat with epoxy after the mount broke. It about the same.Then the epoxy popped of the aluminum. My wife some stuff called Gorilla glue so I tried that and I finely got it back off last winter. Anyways read the lable before you apply the glue, It was an expanding type glue like in foam insulation. The screen on the depth finder looked like an aquarium with to many aerators. I could still use it but only in 20' or less. Aaron ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:44:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. Brent- -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ben Okopnik > To: Origami Boat list > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 16987|16987|2008-03-27 06:19:09|marybarker24|Win $100 in Avon products. No Purchase Necessary|http://www.youravon.com/kristinecarpenter Win $100 in AVON products, NO purchase necessaryto win! My name is Kristine Carpenter. I'm an AVON Representative in Manchester, NH. 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Since I'm a representative in sales tax free NH, you won't pay any sales tax either saving you even more money! Visit me online today! http://www.youravon.com/kristinecarpenter Kristine Carpenter AVON Representative Unit Leader http://www.youravon.com/kristinecapenter| 16988|16988|2008-03-27 07:13:12|boden36|Through hulls|Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as seacocks. How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. Thanks, Richard.| 16989|16989|2008-03-27 09:05:24|rcjoyner|Slight Drop in Ocean Temps - Sorry Albert|In the early 70's enroute to new Zealand I found that where the pilot chart showed a certain temperature for that month the water temperature was exactly that. This has probably changed a lot with global warming. Brent Some 3,000 ARGO scientific robots that are plying the ocean have sent home a puzzling message. These diving instruments suggest that the oceans have not warmed up at all over the past four or five years and in fact have slightly cooled. Rob| 16990|16968|2008-03-27 09:07:28|Ben Okopnik|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 09:11:44PM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > I installed a Humminbird external mount transducer inside on my > aluminum power boat with epoxy after the mount broke. It about the > same.Then the epoxy popped of the aluminum. My wife some stuff called > Gorilla glue so I tried that and I finely got it back off last winter. > Anyways read the lable before you apply the glue, It was an expanding > type glue like in foam insulation. The screen on the depth finder > looked like an aquarium with to many aerators. I could still use it > but only in 20' or less. Ouch... I had a similar (although not as bad) result with Gorilla glue, for the same reason - I had tried to use it to fill a crack in a wooden seat. It flowed in just fine, but then it sorta exploded out in a welter of bubbles - I had to dig it all out and replace it with epoxy. It's kinda hard to figure that out from the label if you haven't had any experience with it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16991|16991|2008-03-27 10:13:58|rcjoyner|Argo - the complete story|Argo's cool reception March 26, 2008 (from the Washington Times ) Three-thousand oceanic probes — the "Argo" program — are a problem for global-warming alarmists. More to the point, explaining the probes' findings should be a priority for the alarmists if science is what drives them, and credibility. Argo shows no global warming over the last five years. In fact, the numbers show a slight cooling. These are merely one small data set, but they cut against the rhetoric, and require attention. Interestingly, though, as one measure of the widespread disinterest, the New York Times has not reported on Argo since its launch in 2000. The 3,000 probes are scattered around the world's oceans surveying temperature and salinity. They surface approximately every 10 days, beam data to researchers and submerge again. They are not the climate scientist's monitoring panacea: That would be a $3 billion oceanic system the Partnership for Observation of the Global Oceans touted to warn of everything from tsunamis to climate change to undersea volcanic activity in the Daily Telegraph recently. But they were certainly viewed as a great advance when first deployed. "What we've done in the past is piecemeal," the New York Times quoted one oceanographer not involved with the project in the newspaper's sole story more than seven years ago. The project, in his view, "will help figure out what it is we have to be doing in terms of greenhouse gas control." Now, watch for the probes' findings to be questioned, or just ignored as usual. Why the disinterest in these probes? To be sure, five years of data from a few thousand monitors do not tell us much about the future of the global climate. The numbers are "not really anything significant," NASA's Josh Willis told National Public Radio recently, also noting that they do show "a very slight cooling." Believers in catastrophic man-made global warming can argue that a short pause in warming now could still be consistent with some doomsday scenario decades hence. As it could be, if we knew for certain. That would be a defensible position in today's debates given climate science's uncertainty. But we do not know with much certainty, and that points up Argo's real significance for the lay observer. Climate is extremely complex, and climate science is not nearly as advanced as the politics of global warming routinely suggest it to be. Accordingly, it should not be shoved into Gore-sized soundbites. This "inconvenient truth," so difficult for the alarmists to accept, detracts from the credibility of those who warn of catastrophic man-made warming each time it is ignored rob| 16992|16968|2008-03-27 10:56:12|Carl Anderson|Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer|The technique that I used to install a Hummingbird fish finder in my Catalina 22 was to sink it in some wax that was then stuck to the inside of the hull forward of the keel. It works great and is removable if & when I choose to do so. As for doing the same thing in a metal hull boat I'm not sure that is what you want to do. Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com Aaron Williams wrote: > > > I installed a Humminbird external mount transducer inside on my aluminum > power boat with epoxy after the mount broke. It about the same.Then the > epoxy popped of the aluminum. My wife some stuff called Gorilla glue so > I tried that and I finely got it back off last winter. Anyways read the > lable before you apply the glue, It was an expanding type glue like in > foam insulation. The screen on the depth finder looked like an aquarium > with to many aerators. I could still use it but only in 20' or less. > Aaron > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:44:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > I never had much luck getting a transducer to shoot thru steel. > Brent- > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Ragsdale > wrote: > > > > Cool. I wasn't sure one of those would shoot through steel. That > would be really easy. I could probably do without a speed log and just > rely on the GPS. That would eliminate a through hull as the speed log > would definitely require one for the paddle wheel. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Ben Okopnik > > To: Origami Boat list > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:19:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] depth transducer and speedlog transducer > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:04AM -0700, Jim > Ragsdale wrote: > > > how do you guys install these in a steel boat? > > > > A friend of mine, another steel boat owner, asked me that when we were > > anchored in St. Thomas - he didn't want to haul out, but wanted to > > install one anyway. We cleared a mostly-horizontal spot just to the side > > of his keel, ground it down to bare metal, put down a coat of epoxy - > > and while it was still liquid, carefully pushed the transducer into it, > > making sure that there were no bubbles between it and the steel. When he > > tested it out several days later, he had a good return signal all the > > way down to 120' - which is what his sounder was rated for. > > > > You can also do this with fiberglass, but a void in the glass under the > > transducer would make the whole operation useless. > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette > .NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 16993|16988|2008-03-27 10:57:14|Carl Anderson|Re: Through hulls|That is the "standard" Brent solution for steel hull boats. I found most of my stainless ball valves at a scrap yard for $2.00 a pound. Be sure that you use 316 for everything below the waterline. I am very luck that the local scrap yard here has a hand held x-ray spectrometer to accurately determine the grade of stainless (these cost nearly $30,000). Carl MoonflowerOfMoab.com boden36 wrote: > > > Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless > pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > seacocks. > How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and > also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. > Thanks, Richard. > > | 16994|16991|2008-03-27 11:13:06|Ben Okopnik|Re: Argo - the complete story|On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 02:13:52PM -0000, rcjoyner wrote: > Argo's cool reception > > > March 26, 2008 > > (from the Washington Times ) > > Three-thousand oceanic probes — the "Argo" program — are a problem > for global-warming alarmists. More to the point, explaining the ^^^^^^^^^ Thanks for the balanced, rational, scientific - rather than the manipulative and politicized - report. I'm sure it'll be treated here with exactly the respect that it deserves. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16995|16988|2008-03-27 14:13:55|James|Re: Through hulls|I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: > > Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless > pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > seacocks. > How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and > also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. > Thanks, Richard. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 16996|16988|2008-03-27 14:39:02|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Through hulls|I have also changed all my through hulls and seacocks to 316 S.S. Why? Peace of mind. If there is a fire, they will not melt. If something heavy falls on them or I stand on them, they will not shear. I sleep better for it :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor James wrote: > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: >> Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless >> pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as >> seacocks. | 16997|16988|2008-03-27 14:46:33|Joe Earsley|Re: Through hulls|The Marlon (plastic) ball valves sold for seacocks are junk. They will seize up on you at the worst time. They somehow want you to annually grease the ball so it will not seize. So think about pulling each of your hoses off each year to get into the seacock to put some Vaseline on 1/2 of the ball. You will not be able to get to the other half. I have been on 2 boats that the seacock seized. Both times in the closed position. The last time was on a chartered boat that had had the raw water pump changed out. The 2" seacock handle rotated but the ball didn't so the engine overheated again. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:39 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Through hulls I have also changed all my through hulls and seacocks to 316 S.S. Why? Peace of mind. If there is a fire, they will not melt. If something heavy falls on them or I stand on them, they will not shear. I sleep better for it :-) -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson Deaf Sailor James wrote: > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: >> Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless >> pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as >> seacocks. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links| 16998|16988|2008-03-27 15:58:17|Ben Okopnik|Re: Through hulls|On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 07:39:00AM +1300, Paul J. Thompson wrote: > I have also changed all my through hulls and seacocks to 316 S.S. Why? > Peace of mind. If there is a fire, they will not melt. If something > heavy falls on them or I stand on them, they will not shear. > > I sleep better for it :-) As we say on another list where I participate, "++ for that post!" I agree with Paul completely, especially with regard to a fire. I've experienced a fire aboard a steel boat - and if it had had plastic seacocks, it would have definitely gone down, given the area that the fire was in. As it was, it took us about 1/2 an hour to put it out - just stepping into that compartment to fight the fire was a hell of a shock, you couldn't stay in there for any more than about 15 seconds, and actually having enough brain to fight the fire in that unbelievable heat was almost more than humanly possible. Metal seacocks are definitely all about ruggedness and peace of mind. Oh, and I agree with Brent that they should be stainless seacocks on stainless risers, which means that I'll be redoing my own - bronze on mild steel, currently - the next time I haul out. Pain in the ass, since I _just_ replaced the old risers and seacocks during my last one... but it's important enough that I'm not willing to skimp on that. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 16999|16988|2008-03-27 16:10:53|Ben Okopnik|Re: Through hulls|On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:51:03AM -0800, Joe Earsley wrote: > The Marlon (plastic) ball valves sold for seacocks are junk. They will > seize up on you at the worst time. They somehow want you to annually > grease the ball so it will not seize. So think about pulling each of > your hoses off each year to get into the seacock to put some Vaseline on > 1/2 of the ball. You will not be able to get to the other half. I have > been on 2 boats that the seacock seized. Both times in the closed > position. The last time was on a chartered boat that had had the raw > water pump changed out. The 2" seacock handle rotated but the ball > didn't so the engine overheated again. [laugh] Oh, that's even better. The only reason to even consider Marelon seacocks was that the manufacturer claimed that they were "permanently self-lubricating" and thus would "never jam", or something of the sort. Now it turns out that both of those are wrong. Is there _any_ reason to ever install one? Maybe on a racing boat to save a few ounces of weight? :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 17000|16988|2008-03-27 16:11:23|brentswain38|Re: Through hulls|Over the last 35 years I've used stainless type 316 nipples welded to the hull with stainless rod, and stainless type 316 ball valves. No problem. Why would you do it any other way? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, James wrote: > > I was just commiting myself to plastic inlets , and possibly seacocks , so > would be interested to know why you are getting rid of ? james > > On 3/27/08, boden36 wrote: > > > > Hi, I seem to remember that someone on the list was using stainless > > pipe stubs welded to the hull, topped by stainless ballcocks as > > seacocks. > > How did this work out? What was the best grade of stainless to use, and > > also brand of ballcock? I am looking to get rid of my plastic seacocks. > > Thanks, Richard. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > |